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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA mia podcast. MoMA Miya acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast

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Speaker 1: is recorded.

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Speaker 2: On Hi everyone, Kate Lanebrook here with an extraordinary interview

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Speaker 2: for you to hear. It's from the True Crime Conversations podcast,

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Speaker 2: where host Claire Murphy speaks with Kathleen Folbeg, the Australian

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Speaker 2: woman wrongfully convicted in two thousand and three of murdering

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Speaker 2: her four infant children. After twenty years in prison, she

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Speaker 2: was pardoned in twenty twenty three when new genetic evidence

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Speaker 2: showed the children died from rare diseases. In this conversation,

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Speaker 2: Claire talks with Kathleen about how you rebuild a life

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Speaker 2: after two decades of being branded a monster? How do

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Speaker 2: you prove your innocence when the world has believed you

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Speaker 2: guilty for so long. It's raw, it's heartbreaking, it's deeply compelling.

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Speaker 2: Take a listen.

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Speaker 3: When you say the name Kathleen Folbig, you may get

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Speaker 3: a few different reactions. Kathleen spent twenty years behind bars,

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Speaker 3: found guilty on May twenty one, two thousand and three,

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Speaker 3: and initially sentenced to forty years in prison with a

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Speaker 3: non prole period of thirty Kathleen was released from prison

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Speaker 3: on the fifth of June twenty twenty three after science

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Speaker 3: stepped in and gave an explanation as to what really

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Speaker 3: happened to Caleb, Patrick, Sarah and Laura for the now

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Speaker 3: fifty eight year old having spent two years out in

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Speaker 3: the real world. Just how hard is it to make

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Speaker 3: people understand that you are actually innocent when for so

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Speaker 3: long you were considered guilty? How do you emerge from

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Speaker 3: that life to form a new one after having so

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Speaker 3: much of your young life taken away. I'm Claire Murphy

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Speaker 3: and this is True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring the

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Speaker 3: world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who

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Speaker 3: know the most about them. Kathleen Forbig's life has been

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Speaker 3: dissected in court and in the court of public opinion

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Speaker 3: for decades. A young woman facing the worst a young

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Speaker 3: mother could possibly face, the death of four babies, was

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Speaker 3: also facing hate and vitriol of an Australian public who

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Speaker 3: saw her as a monster, a fellow prison inmates who

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Speaker 3: saw her as a target of a system that would

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Speaker 3: take twenty years to catch up to her innocence. Kathleen

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Speaker 3: and her best friend, Tracy Chapman, continue to advocate for

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Speaker 3: women who find themselves in a similar situation and are

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Speaker 3: now telling their story together.

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Speaker 1: Tracy was unable to.

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Speaker 3: Join us for this interview, but her voice shines through

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Speaker 3: in their book Inside Out, which Kathleen does talk about

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Speaker 3: as well as much more. Kathleen joins us now, Kathleen,

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Speaker 3: thank you so much for joining us today here on

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Speaker 3: True Crime Conversations. We feel really honored to have shared

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Speaker 3: some of your story before, but to be able to

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Speaker 3: sit down and speak to you about it and your experience,

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Speaker 3: I think is we feel very honored that you've said

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Speaker 3: yes to sit down with us today.

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Speaker 1: So thank you very much.

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Speaker 4: Ah, you're welcome, and thank you for allowing the time

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Speaker 4: and letting everybody have to say so it's good.

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Speaker 3: It really did want to find out from you what

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Speaker 3: it's been like for you, not just since your release,

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Speaker 3: but the moment you found out while you were in

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Speaker 3: jail that Tracy was fighting for you, that your friend

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Speaker 3: had decided to take matters into her own hands and

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Speaker 3: really fight for you. Do you remember that moment when

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Speaker 3: you realize that that was happening outside the walls, Well,

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Speaker 3: it was.

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Speaker 4: Such a gradual thing, you know, like she started to

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Speaker 4: visit me, I think primarily just as you know, one

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Speaker 4: of my deep friends in high school and one of

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Speaker 4: my best friends. So she started to break the ice

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Speaker 4: and visit me. But then, of course, then you know,

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Speaker 4: when things start to happen that legally meant we could

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Speaker 4: take a few more extra steps. Her decision to go

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Speaker 4: down the advocacy road, it was, you know, of course

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Speaker 4: it was major, you know, and you know it's if

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Speaker 4: anyone could have somebody like Tracy in my situation, they

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Speaker 4: should go find one, because you know, it's it's she's

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Speaker 4: she was pivotal in getting a lot of the stuff done.

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Speaker 5: It's been described in the.

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Speaker 4: Past as you know, she sort of created a scaffolding

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Speaker 4: that everybody and you know, everybody else that jumped on

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Speaker 4: that scaffolding to help out and volunteer time and money

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Speaker 4: and expertise and all the rest. Without Tracy, you know,

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Speaker 4: building the scaffolding in the first place, it may not

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Speaker 4: have happened at all. So yeah, she's you know, pivotal

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Speaker 4: as far as I'm concerned. We both like to send

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Speaker 4: the message that someone like Trace to do advocacy in

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Speaker 4: such a big fashion like mine. There's a lot of

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Speaker 4: costs that happened. And it's not just monetary, it's emotional,

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Speaker 4: it's mental, it's you know, it can affect what path

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Speaker 4: to take down in life. It's all you know, there's

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Speaker 4: a humongous you know, on flow and ripple, a fact

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Speaker 4: that happens with it. So for me, it was such

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Speaker 4: a gradual thing. But you know, I do recall saying

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Speaker 4: to you, are you sure you want to do this?

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Speaker 4: And quite often saying you know, I would say during

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Speaker 4: phone discussions, you know, if there's things that you wish

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Speaker 4: to do for yourself, please go do like you know,

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Speaker 4: so I think, especially when we're hitting lulls and nothing

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Speaker 4: was happening and we're all just wondering, what the hell

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Speaker 4: are you doing? I always encouraged and just sort of said, look,

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Speaker 4: if you've got stuff that you want to do, then

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Speaker 4: please do you know? I said, you know? And she

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Speaker 4: tried and did you know? That sort of thing I said.

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Speaker 4: But unfortunately, to advocate for a case such as mine

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Speaker 4: that's so complicated and so huge, and because it is

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Speaker 4: your friend, you put one hundred and twenty percent in

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Speaker 4: you know, she suffered. You know, you didn'tet one hundred

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Speaker 4: and twenty percent back, you know that sort of thing,

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Speaker 4: I said, because that's the way the system is.

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Speaker 3: Unfortunately, well, arguably she got her friend back and that's

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Speaker 3: probably more than enough payoff at the end of the day.

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Speaker 4: Right, Well, you know, I sort of thing, we it's

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Speaker 4: weird because we sort of like I've only been out

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Speaker 4: like three twenty twenty twenty five, you know, technically doing

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Speaker 4: a bit eas or something now and we're both you know,

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Speaker 4: she's the one in a state nom at the other,

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Speaker 4: I said, So we actually no longer sort of really

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Speaker 4: near each other with you know somethings. So and you know,

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Speaker 4: like life goes on, you know, and it's you know,

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Speaker 4: it's an unfortunate thing to say, like she got her

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Speaker 4: family life and her farm and her animals, and I've

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Speaker 4: got a different direction that's hitting new partner, you know,

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Speaker 4: new home life, gone went back home, trying to decide

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Speaker 4: what I'm going to do with my future as such.

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Speaker 4: And so we try to stay in touch and be

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Speaker 4: in touch as friends, you know, some thing I said,

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Speaker 4: And that that's all you do. It's all you can do.

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Speaker 4: But of course she knows that I'm always here for her.

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Speaker 4: She needs me and I know that she's always there.

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Speaker 4: I said, So, it's a prick roco sort of thing.

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Speaker 4: I said, So, I don't think that'll ever change.

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Speaker 5: I don't care.

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Speaker 4: You know, we could be eighty on our walking frames

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Speaker 4: and probably still doing it, you know, I said.

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Speaker 1: So.

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Speaker 4: You know, we often used to joke about that as

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Speaker 4: a friend the best, you know, I said, you couldn't

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Speaker 4: ask for anything better. And you know, we have ups

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Speaker 4: and downs, and we can argue like a blamie when

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Speaker 4: we're not agreeing on something. So because you know, she

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Speaker 4: can be quite forthright, and I'm very forth right once

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Speaker 4: I get going.

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Speaker 1: Two peas in a pod.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you mentioned there that you moved back home, given

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Speaker 3: home for you as Newcastle. What was that like for

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Speaker 3: you to go back to a place that would have

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Speaker 3: been so familiar twenty years ago and now is a

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Speaker 3: strange new place.

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Speaker 4: I didn't sort of look at it like a strange

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Speaker 4: new place like I came home and any of the

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Speaker 4: navigation of the basic outlay of Newcastle hasn't really changed.

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Speaker 4: What I did discover was that there's a round about

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Speaker 4: every five seconds, which was getting used to.

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Speaker 1: It's getting a bit Canberra esque.

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Speaker 4: No longer exists, and stations have disappeared, and you know,

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Speaker 4: all those sorts of things shopping centers seem to have

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Speaker 4: grown exponentially and take up whole city blocks. I said,

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Speaker 4: So those sorts of things I had to get used to.

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Speaker 4: But basic streets of where I used to hang when

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Speaker 4: I was a kid or learned to drive or my

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Speaker 4: younger life are all still there. So the basic layup

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Speaker 4: is my hometown. So you know, to me it was

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Speaker 4: also a I think I was just determined to go

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Speaker 4: home because it was to me like a finishing of

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Speaker 4: a complete circle. You know, Okay, my circle went one

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Speaker 4: way and got disrupted, and I went off and all

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Speaker 4: sorts of weird passes to where life sort of goes,

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Speaker 4: totally not expecting it to ended up where it ended up,

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Speaker 4: I said, But I was determined to make it end

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Speaker 4: up back in Newcastle and say I'm home now and

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Speaker 4: let's get.

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Speaker 5: On with life and let's go forward.

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Speaker 1: I think we are.

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Speaker 3: So intensely interested in what your life is looking like

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Speaker 3: now because that transition for you, like so much has

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Speaker 3: changed in the time that you're incarcerated. I mean, technology

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Speaker 3: has changed almost to a place where it would be

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Speaker 3: unrecognizable if you were to drop someone into it twenty

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Speaker 3: years after they've left it, and you know, people have changed.

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Speaker 3: Relationships with people have changed. What's the thing that you

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Speaker 3: think you've struggled to come to terms with the most.

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Speaker 3: We will presume it's something like technology. But you've connected

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Speaker 3: to us. We use a program called riverside. You're on

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Speaker 3: your laptop. You seem to be quite fine with technology,

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Speaker 3: But what is the things that you're finding the most

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Speaker 3: difficult to navigate in this new world?

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Speaker 4: I just I struggle a little bit with how much

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Speaker 4: life becomes a pressure for people these days. You know,

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Speaker 4: you know, you go back twenty odd years, I feel

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Speaker 4: like people were far more relaxed and how they were

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Speaker 4: going about things, wherein everything now seems to be on

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Speaker 4: fast forward high speed. People have to have you know,

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Speaker 4: eighty ninety hours out of a day of a twenty

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Speaker 4: four hour period just to get anything done. I said,

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Speaker 4: which is you know, sad for me because I'm just

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Speaker 4: sort of like, oh gosh, you know, no such thing

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Speaker 4: as your nine to five job anymore.

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Speaker 5: You know, I said, the exist.

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Speaker 4: But people go to work at seven thirties dead a

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Speaker 4: nine and end up there until seven thirty eight nine

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Speaker 4: o'clock before they finished, you know, I said, so that's

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Speaker 4: sort of out of pressure that people are under to

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Speaker 4: just to cope with the cost of living that seems

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Speaker 4: to have skyrocketter and have gone through the roof in twenty.

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Speaker 5: Years, you know. So that was a big eye opener

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Speaker 5: for me. And you know, yes, technology is a little bit.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I succeeded in doing this, but as I said,

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Speaker 4: I was here for half an hour present buttons to

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Speaker 4: make sure that I could.

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Speaker 5: And who knows what I've affected somewhere else.

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Speaker 4: Online by doing it, So I'll probably find I've lost

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Speaker 4: one of my own broke somewhere along the way, you know,

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Speaker 4: and the whole you know, I find it quite disconcerting

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Speaker 4: that there is a lack of communication, conversation and people

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Speaker 4: just don't look up anymore.

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Speaker 5: It's all this, you know.

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Speaker 4: And I don't know how many times I've you know,

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Speaker 4: pedestrians have just gone marshed out in the middle of

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Speaker 4: the road and I've had to go, whoa because they

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Speaker 4: have not even looked up to see if they were

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Speaker 4: going to get hit by car.

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Speaker 5: So I do I do find that to live disconcerting.

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Speaker 1: Have you succumbed to the screen yourself, though, Kathleen.

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Speaker 5: To a certain time, it's off and I don't look again.

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Speaker 4: And I have a bad habit of just leaving it

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Speaker 4: somewhere and forgetting to bring it with me because I'm

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Speaker 4: not you know, I can take the dog for a

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Speaker 4: walk a good twenty minutes and go left the phone home.

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Speaker 4: Too bad if anything happens to me because I.

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Speaker 5: Can't have my phone.

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Speaker 1: We can all learn a thing or two from you,

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Speaker 1: I tell you, so.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it takes a bit of getting this to you know, Facebook,

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Speaker 4: I only do as in you know, I've got some

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Speaker 4: friends on there, a few, and that's it.

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Speaker 5: I don't sort of do anything else.

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Speaker 4: Googles my friend on the laptop, I must say, I

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Speaker 4: find out a lot of interesting stuff.

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Speaker 5: You know, it's probably more than I need to know.

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Speaker 1: Have you googled yourself?

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Speaker 4: I have occasionally had a look and just been shocked

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Speaker 4: and how much stuff's actually up there. And to see

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Speaker 4: that it's even on YouTube of all places, I'm just

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Speaker 4: sort of like, oh my goodness, you know, but you know,

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Speaker 4: it is what it is, and you know, I made

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Speaker 4: the decision to open up and give some information because

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Speaker 4: everyone seemed to be just so wanting to know that.

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Speaker 4: I thought, you know, there's a few bubbles that needed

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Speaker 4: bursting and some correct information that needed to come out.

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Speaker 4: So that was one of the reasons why I said

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Speaker 4: Yesak and decided to swallow the fear and just start

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Speaker 4: doing some interviews and then go for it.

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Speaker 3: Can you take us back to the day you were

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Speaker 3: actually released from prison because we'd heard rumblings via the

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Speaker 3: New South Wales Supreme Court that potentially something might be happening,

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Speaker 3: and then it all happened so very quickly, and then

255
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Speaker 3: all of a sudden, you were just out, and we

256
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Speaker 3: were all scrambling because we're like, we weren't expecting this

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Speaker 3: to happen right now. So there's US journalists frantically typing

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Speaker 3: away on our keyboards to let everyone know that Kathleen

259
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Speaker 3: was out. But what was that experience like for you

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Speaker 3: on that day? Did you know something was coming? Was

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Speaker 3: there any inkling that you were going to be released

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Speaker 3: that day? What did that day look like for you?

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Speaker 4: Well, we were all just hoping that that day was

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Speaker 4: going to roll around. We didn't think it would take

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Speaker 4: as long as it did. After, you know, his honorable

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Speaker 4: Bath has put down his basic finding saying, you know,

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Speaker 4: nothing to see here, not sure why she's still there. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: there was a good few months I still wandering around

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Speaker 4: working and having to live the jar life with staff

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Speaker 4: even saying why are you're still here and none of

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Speaker 4: us knowing. So it was sort of like just treading

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Speaker 4: water waiting to see you know, were they going to

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Speaker 4: do the right thing and give the pardon and release

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Speaker 4: or what were they going to do or were we

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Speaker 4: going to have to keep fighting and scrambling to sort

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Speaker 4: of get someone to say something. So even though we

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Speaker 4: wanted it to happen and we sort of knew it

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Speaker 4: was going to eventually, it was always like wet fish

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Speaker 4: in the face because it was all very sudden, unjust.

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Speaker 5: It was just a bit of a shock.

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Speaker 4: And that particular day I was just working in jarle

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Speaker 4: life normal and sent upstairs to see the boss, thinking

283
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Speaker 4: I'm in trouble for something, and then get told by

284
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Speaker 4: the way you've been pardoner releasing you right now. If

285
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Speaker 4: you go get that car, you're gone. So it was

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Speaker 4: all such a rush.

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Speaker 1: Did you think for a second someone's taking the pierce here?

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Speaker 4: Yes, yes, for sure, because I think I delayed in

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Speaker 4: actually answering him and then I actually swore at the

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Speaker 4: poor man, I'm pretty sure, pretty much saying you've got

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Speaker 4: to be kidney, I said, because it was all just

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Speaker 4: a bit too starting, a bit too yeah, you know,

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Speaker 4: And I'm sure when he asked Jasey about it, she'll

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Speaker 4: be able to tell you the horrendous stories she had

295
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Speaker 4: because it was also she wasn't told. No one was

296
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Speaker 4: told in the band, so not even my legal team

297
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Speaker 4: was told.

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Speaker 1: So I was like, just get in the car.

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Speaker 4: Everyone was literally literally in the car, you know, I said,

300
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Speaker 4: so to being borrowed clothes that weren't even mine, and

301
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Speaker 4: a beautiful outfit that had been chosen didn't get to

302
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Speaker 4: be worn, and you know, and all sorts of stuff.

303
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Speaker 5: I said. It was all very.

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Speaker 4: Shots of me getting out of a band holding a

305
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Speaker 4: pair of shoes that I probably should have had on

306
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Speaker 4: my feet but weren't even thinking about it then, yeah,

307
00:14:55,205 --> 00:14:57,325
Speaker 4: so and later going why am I hanging onto my shoes?

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Speaker 4: You know?

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Speaker 5: You know, it's all it was all just very very fast.

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Speaker 3: Well, I'd love to get an understanding from you about

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Speaker 3: what jail life was actually like for you, because I

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Speaker 3: think the thing that strikes me the most, I mean

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Speaker 3: the traumative experience going into prison aside, you're still a

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Speaker 3: very young woman when you go to prison, and you

315
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Speaker 3: still haven't really grown into the person that you're going.

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Speaker 1: To be yet.

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Speaker 3: You still have a lot of life experience to be

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Speaker 3: had in order to become who you're going to become.

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Speaker 3: And then you go into a prison system where people

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Speaker 3: who were accused of crimes like you had been are

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Speaker 3: considered amongst the worst of the worst, right, so they

322
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Speaker 3: have to put you in solitary confinement. So how do

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Speaker 3: you even grow as a human being when you're still

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Speaker 3: that young, with so much growing to do, when there's

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Speaker 3: no one around you to grow with.

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Speaker 5: That's a very good question.

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Speaker 4: I sort of think growing occurred, but because of the

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Speaker 4: situation and environment that I'm in, I would say it was.

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Speaker 4: You know, the only thing it really did was cement

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Speaker 4: my strength, cement, the stoism, cement, the stubbornness, and cement.

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Speaker 4: You know, the word resilience has been used and all

332
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Speaker 4: those sorts of words. So that sort of environment, yes,

333
00:16:16,445 --> 00:16:19,725
Speaker 4: it helps cement and strengthen those sort of qualities. Whether

334
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Speaker 4: I would have gone and had all those had not

335
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Speaker 4: not been in prison, who can say I've always been

336
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Speaker 4: a bit stubborn and had a bit of a strength

337
00:16:25,725 --> 00:16:27,685
Speaker 4: thing about me. I said, but I don't think it

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Speaker 4: would have developed into such the giant shoulders a major

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Speaker 4: backbone that I ended up with. I said, it would

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Speaker 4: have been a more sedate version.

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Speaker 5: I'm sure.

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Speaker 4: I always say to people, Okay, I was, you know,

343
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Speaker 4: thirty four thirty five when I'm in in So there

344
00:16:40,685 --> 00:16:43,165
Speaker 4: was a life hate before that, and I tended to

345
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Speaker 4: always hang on to that and say, ok, it's not

346
00:16:47,165 --> 00:16:49,085
Speaker 4: a case of going in at eighteen and having no

347
00:16:49,245 --> 00:16:52,205
Speaker 4: life whatsoever and not even knowing what to do or why.

348
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Speaker 4: At thirty five, you know, my basic life, school's personality

349
00:16:56,965 --> 00:16:58,645
Speaker 4: was set the whole lot and all that sort of stuff.

350
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Speaker 5: I said.

351
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Speaker 4: So I used to always go back and keep saying

352
00:17:02,045 --> 00:17:03,445
Speaker 4: to people, hang in a minute. I was a fully

353
00:17:03,485 --> 00:17:05,645
Speaker 4: grown adult all the time I come in here, and

354
00:17:06,725 --> 00:17:11,885
Speaker 4: I had to try to keep standard values and things

355
00:17:11,925 --> 00:17:14,565
Speaker 4: that the core of myself. I had to keep strong

356
00:17:15,805 --> 00:17:18,325
Speaker 4: and remind myself to try and stay true to that

357
00:17:18,445 --> 00:17:21,005
Speaker 4: core of who I thought I was as much as possible.

358
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Speaker 4: It can be made tough and very hard to do

359
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Speaker 4: so when you're in an environment like that, And I

360
00:17:26,285 --> 00:17:28,725
Speaker 4: had many a time where I slid behavior wise and

361
00:17:28,925 --> 00:17:32,125
Speaker 4: was just the basic naughty girl. You know, I said so,

362
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Speaker 4: but it was all in defense of trying to survive,

363
00:17:37,245 --> 00:17:40,325
Speaker 4: and kept telling myself, you know, even if all the

364
00:17:40,405 --> 00:17:43,325
Speaker 4: legal stuff doesn't work twenty twenty eight, I'm out, whether

365
00:17:43,365 --> 00:17:44,925
Speaker 4: these people like it or not. So I have to

366
00:17:44,965 --> 00:17:47,045
Speaker 4: suck it up and do what I need to do.

367
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Speaker 4: So that's how I dealt with it. But everyone's an

368
00:17:51,165 --> 00:17:54,085
Speaker 4: individual and everyone deals with things way differently. I've had

369
00:17:54,085 --> 00:17:55,885
Speaker 4: a lot of women say to me, you know, if

370
00:17:55,925 --> 00:17:58,005
Speaker 4: I had lost one, I would have fallen apart. You've

371
00:17:58,045 --> 00:17:59,965
Speaker 4: lost four and you've been in prison for it. How

372
00:18:00,045 --> 00:18:03,605
Speaker 4: have you coped. My answer to that is, I believe

373
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Speaker 4: that everybody has a strength in there, and when they're

374
00:18:05,685 --> 00:18:08,725
Speaker 4: forced to find it, it's there. Some people have struggled

375
00:18:08,805 --> 00:18:12,365
Speaker 4: and don't find it, Others find it. Some people you know,

376
00:18:12,645 --> 00:18:16,645
Speaker 4: who can do it reasonably easily, others can't, and others

377
00:18:16,725 --> 00:18:19,325
Speaker 4: really fight. Well. I didn't. I wouldn't say that I

378
00:18:19,405 --> 00:18:23,165
Speaker 4: did it easily, but I just think it could have

379
00:18:23,405 --> 00:18:25,405
Speaker 4: something to do with, you know, the beginnings of my

380
00:18:25,445 --> 00:18:27,365
Speaker 4: life and how tough the beginning of my life was.

381
00:18:27,565 --> 00:18:29,405
Speaker 4: I sort of already had a bit of a backbone,

382
00:18:29,445 --> 00:18:32,085
Speaker 4: and that helped me cope and survive with what I

383
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Speaker 4: had to go through.

384
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Speaker 5: For those twenty years.

385
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Speaker 3: That's the thing is, I don't think a lot of

386
00:18:35,245 --> 00:18:37,965
Speaker 3: people realize that your story starts so much earlier than

387
00:18:38,485 --> 00:18:42,045
Speaker 3: the birth of your first child, because you do, you know,

388
00:18:42,365 --> 00:18:47,205
Speaker 3: find out somewhat older child that your mother is actually

389
00:18:47,925 --> 00:18:51,525
Speaker 3: was murdered by your father, and you're then handed off

390
00:18:51,565 --> 00:18:53,805
Speaker 3: to relatives to then make you wards at the state,

391
00:18:53,925 --> 00:18:56,325
Speaker 3: and you've had to sort of fight pretty much tooth

392
00:18:56,405 --> 00:18:59,885
Speaker 3: and now from the very beginning of your life. Do

393
00:19:00,085 --> 00:19:04,365
Speaker 3: you think that that might have added to that resilience?

394
00:19:04,445 --> 00:19:04,565
Speaker 1: Does?

395
00:19:04,925 --> 00:19:06,525
Speaker 3: Because I mean that would have broken a lot of

396
00:19:06,565 --> 00:19:09,325
Speaker 3: people emotionally, if not psychological.

397
00:19:10,765 --> 00:19:12,485
Speaker 5: I have a firm believer for me that it did,

398
00:19:12,925 --> 00:19:13,085
Speaker 5: you know.

399
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Speaker 4: You know, I've heard third, third hand stories of me

400
00:19:16,045 --> 00:19:19,565
Speaker 4: at eighteen months old or two years old being quite

401
00:19:19,645 --> 00:19:21,565
Speaker 4: independent and just deciding I'm going to do this or

402
00:19:21,645 --> 00:19:27,165
Speaker 4: do that, and even at three or four, not tolerating

403
00:19:27,245 --> 00:19:29,405
Speaker 4: bullies or people who are picking on other people. I said,

404
00:19:29,565 --> 00:19:34,525
Speaker 4: so it was already there and developed, you know, and

405
00:19:34,805 --> 00:19:39,165
Speaker 4: sort of semi stayed that way, but developed and involved

406
00:19:39,965 --> 00:19:42,685
Speaker 4: being in a tough situation and a tough environment like prison.

407
00:19:42,885 --> 00:19:44,845
Speaker 4: A lot of my friends that I've met along the way,

408
00:19:45,405 --> 00:19:47,485
Speaker 4: A couple of them I met because I was actually

409
00:19:47,525 --> 00:19:50,245
Speaker 4: in defense of them against somebody else, you know, I

410
00:19:50,325 --> 00:19:52,125
Speaker 4: sort of said, and that's how we've connected, and that's

411
00:19:52,165 --> 00:19:55,685
Speaker 4: how we've met. And you know, I've got a friend

412
00:19:55,725 --> 00:19:58,285
Speaker 4: of mine who's over six foot two, and she was

413
00:19:58,365 --> 00:19:59,605
Speaker 4: being bullied in high school and.

414
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Speaker 5: I didn't have a bar of that.

415
00:20:01,325 --> 00:20:04,725
Speaker 4: So we connected, you know, so I said, which it

416
00:20:04,805 --> 00:20:07,045
Speaker 4: was quite ironic that I'm just this little five foot five,

417
00:20:07,525 --> 00:20:09,565
Speaker 4: you know, telling people rack oh you know, you know,

418
00:20:09,645 --> 00:20:11,485
Speaker 4: so they get picked on someone else, you know. So

419
00:20:12,165 --> 00:20:14,085
Speaker 4: it was already there, and I already had it as

420
00:20:14,085 --> 00:20:16,405
Speaker 4: a backbone, you know, third hand stories of me at

421
00:20:16,445 --> 00:20:19,845
Speaker 4: eighteen months, I was wandering around because you know, my mother,

422
00:20:20,205 --> 00:20:22,845
Speaker 4: for all intents and purposes, I didn't you know, I

423
00:20:22,925 --> 00:20:24,725
Speaker 4: can honestly sit here and say I don't remember, I

424
00:20:24,765 --> 00:20:26,285
Speaker 4: don't recall. I couldn't tell you what you look like.

425
00:20:26,365 --> 00:20:28,565
Speaker 4: I've got a picture that I've seen. Don't really know

426
00:20:28,685 --> 00:20:31,205
Speaker 4: much or anything about her. I have heard that she

427
00:20:31,365 --> 00:20:33,925
Speaker 4: was very free spirited and just did you know, as

428
00:20:33,965 --> 00:20:37,085
Speaker 4: she pleased and that she was kind, herded and whatever else.

429
00:20:37,165 --> 00:20:39,605
Speaker 4: But unfortunately for me, by the time she had me,

430
00:20:39,725 --> 00:20:41,125
Speaker 4: she had developed a bit of a drinking and a

431
00:20:41,165 --> 00:20:43,445
Speaker 4: gambling problem, so not the same human being at all.

432
00:20:44,005 --> 00:20:46,845
Speaker 4: And third hand stories of me just wandering around pretty

433
00:20:46,885 --> 00:20:48,805
Speaker 4: much taking care of myself and a singleer and happy

434
00:20:48,845 --> 00:20:51,045
Speaker 4: at eighty months old, what does that say? You know,

435
00:20:51,165 --> 00:20:54,285
Speaker 4: some thing I'd already started to, you know, try to

436
00:20:54,805 --> 00:20:57,725
Speaker 4: do the best I could, even at that age. So yeah,

437
00:20:57,765 --> 00:20:59,645
Speaker 4: I think it's sort of I think what happens to

438
00:20:59,725 --> 00:21:02,285
Speaker 4: you in your life, trauma wise or whatever, it canmulds

439
00:21:02,325 --> 00:21:02,965
Speaker 4: you into who you are.

440
00:21:03,565 --> 00:21:06,165
Speaker 5: And I guess it depends on how much you know.

441
00:21:06,205 --> 00:21:06,805
Speaker 5: I've been lucky.

442
00:21:06,805 --> 00:21:09,445
Speaker 4: I've had quite a bit of mental health help for

443
00:21:09,565 --> 00:21:11,205
Speaker 4: coping and especially whilst I was.

444
00:21:11,205 --> 00:21:13,805
Speaker 5: Inside, and now that I'm out. You know, it'll be

445
00:21:13,805 --> 00:21:14,525
Speaker 5: an eternal thing.

446
00:21:14,925 --> 00:21:17,645
Speaker 4: Some people don't get that to be able to help them,

447
00:21:18,205 --> 00:21:20,765
Speaker 4: you know, I said, so they may suffer far more

448
00:21:20,845 --> 00:21:23,925
Speaker 4: than what I'm suffering. But I'm also very I am

449
00:21:24,045 --> 00:21:28,725
Speaker 4: mindful of, you know the fact that my situation and

450
00:21:28,805 --> 00:21:31,325
Speaker 4: all the people who helped me with it, especially my

451
00:21:31,405 --> 00:21:34,365
Speaker 4: close friends and stuff, they suffered mentally, and you know,

452
00:21:34,485 --> 00:21:36,085
Speaker 4: and all that along the way as well, you know,

453
00:21:36,165 --> 00:21:38,165
Speaker 4: I said, so there was, as I said, there was

454
00:21:38,165 --> 00:21:40,845
Speaker 4: a ripple effect to you know, you want to stand

455
00:21:40,885 --> 00:21:42,685
Speaker 4: beside me or help me out, There was a ripple

456
00:21:42,685 --> 00:21:45,805
Speaker 4: effect that you could be affected by it. And as

457
00:21:45,925 --> 00:21:48,365
Speaker 4: upsetting as that was to me, you know, at the time,

458
00:21:48,445 --> 00:21:51,525
Speaker 4: I was dealing with trying to cope and mentally sustain

459
00:21:51,605 --> 00:21:54,285
Speaker 4: myself as well, I said so. But yeah, I think

460
00:21:54,325 --> 00:21:56,365
Speaker 4: you know, whatever your core person is, that's.

461
00:21:56,245 --> 00:21:56,885
Speaker 5: That's who you are.

462
00:21:58,445 --> 00:22:01,365
Speaker 3: You're listening to true crime Conversations with me, Claire Murphy,

463
00:22:01,605 --> 00:22:04,845
Speaker 3: I'm speaking with Kathleen Folbick, who spent twenty years in

464
00:22:04,925 --> 00:22:08,245
Speaker 3: prison after being wrongfully convicted of killing her four infant

465
00:22:08,325 --> 00:22:12,005
Speaker 3: children before her release in twenty twenty three. Up next,

466
00:22:12,365 --> 00:22:15,085
Speaker 3: I ask Kathleen what it's like to talk about her

467
00:22:15,165 --> 00:22:18,285
Speaker 3: children after everything she's been through and what led her

468
00:22:18,445 --> 00:22:29,325
Speaker 3: to keep choosing motherhood even after such heartbreaking loss. Kathleen,

469
00:22:29,725 --> 00:22:33,445
Speaker 3: I'm sitting here thinking, as you're telling me these stories

470
00:22:33,485 --> 00:22:37,005
Speaker 3: of how resilient you are, about the moment that arrives

471
00:22:37,045 --> 00:22:39,925
Speaker 3: in this conversation where we have to talk about the

472
00:22:40,005 --> 00:22:40,965
Speaker 3: deaths of your children.

473
00:22:41,365 --> 00:22:46,005
Speaker 1: Yep, it's a really awful thing to talk about. It is.

474
00:22:47,445 --> 00:22:51,325
Speaker 3: I mean, I have a kid, I now can like

475
00:22:52,045 --> 00:22:54,845
Speaker 3: when your story broke, I wasn't a mum, so I

476
00:22:55,805 --> 00:22:57,645
Speaker 3: looked at your story very differently than the way I

477
00:22:57,725 --> 00:23:00,525
Speaker 3: do now now that I do have a child, and

478
00:23:00,685 --> 00:23:04,845
Speaker 3: it changes you. Having a baby physically fundamentally changes who

479
00:23:04,925 --> 00:23:08,045
Speaker 3: you are. You become a mom, It's a second life

480
00:23:08,365 --> 00:23:12,765
Speaker 3: for you. And so talking to another mum about the

481
00:23:12,885 --> 00:23:17,565
Speaker 3: death of her babies, it is such a tricky thing

482
00:23:17,685 --> 00:23:21,685
Speaker 3: to bring up. I want to know how you feel

483
00:23:21,725 --> 00:23:24,725
Speaker 3: about talking about your children when they have been such

484
00:23:24,765 --> 00:23:29,805
Speaker 3: a focus of your entire existence, from becoming a mum

485
00:23:29,845 --> 00:23:33,165
Speaker 3: where they do become your entire existence, to everything that

486
00:23:33,245 --> 00:23:35,645
Speaker 3: then you've gone through in losing them one after the

487
00:23:35,725 --> 00:23:38,525
Speaker 3: other and having to recover from the trauma of those

488
00:23:39,485 --> 00:23:43,845
Speaker 3: in still still wanting to become a mum and becoming

489
00:23:43,925 --> 00:23:47,085
Speaker 3: pregnant again, and being able to process that into a

490
00:23:47,165 --> 00:23:49,045
Speaker 3: place where you can be okay with being pregnant and

491
00:23:49,085 --> 00:23:53,005
Speaker 3: having another baby and not pass away from anxiety yourself.

492
00:23:54,485 --> 00:23:57,085
Speaker 3: How do you feel about talking about your babies with

493
00:23:57,165 --> 00:24:00,085
Speaker 3: people like me? We are strangers, and yet this is

494
00:24:00,125 --> 00:24:03,165
Speaker 3: a conversation you're going to keep having with people until,

495
00:24:03,765 --> 00:24:04,685
Speaker 3: you know, maybe forever.

496
00:24:05,565 --> 00:24:09,205
Speaker 4: I had to accept the fact that that's who I've known.

497
00:24:09,885 --> 00:24:12,085
Speaker 4: You know, I'm known as the poor woman the lost

498
00:24:12,125 --> 00:24:13,965
Speaker 4: four children, went to prison for it and managed to

499
00:24:14,005 --> 00:24:16,805
Speaker 4: win the case and then get back out. That's who

500
00:24:16,885 --> 00:24:17,365
Speaker 4: I'm known as.

501
00:24:17,845 --> 00:24:19,125
Speaker 1: That's a long story short.

502
00:24:19,245 --> 00:24:24,765
Speaker 4: Yes, Yeah, discussing and talking about my children, I used

503
00:24:24,805 --> 00:24:28,325
Speaker 4: to be quite coveted of memories and tended not to

504
00:24:28,445 --> 00:24:32,845
Speaker 4: share because for me, I don't have the big banking

505
00:24:33,245 --> 00:24:35,005
Speaker 4: vault of memories in regards to them.

506
00:24:35,045 --> 00:24:36,525
Speaker 5: I have a select few.

507
00:24:37,445 --> 00:24:43,485
Speaker 4: The trauma of losing them for me, it's hard to

508
00:24:43,565 --> 00:24:47,405
Speaker 4: describe because I sometimes still use it if I'm in

509
00:24:47,445 --> 00:24:50,405
Speaker 4: a traumatic situation that I don't think i'm handling very well.

510
00:24:51,245 --> 00:24:52,765
Speaker 5: I have what they call it.

511
00:24:53,125 --> 00:24:55,365
Speaker 4: It's almost like a deflective shield that sort of just

512
00:24:55,445 --> 00:24:58,685
Speaker 4: comes up, almost like I step outside myself and I

513
00:24:58,845 --> 00:25:03,525
Speaker 4: just don't tend to I may be answering you, but

514
00:25:03,925 --> 00:25:06,445
Speaker 4: it's very monotone. I can go a little monotone and

515
00:25:06,605 --> 00:25:11,445
Speaker 4: not because it blocks me from feeling too much. As such,

516
00:25:13,005 --> 00:25:16,885
Speaker 4: I try not to do that these days because as

517
00:25:16,925 --> 00:25:20,605
Speaker 4: far as I'm concerned, you know, for everything that I

518
00:25:20,685 --> 00:25:25,725
Speaker 4: went through, my children existed, and I would never ever

519
00:25:25,925 --> 00:25:29,005
Speaker 4: deny that they did, you know, I said, So it's

520
00:25:29,045 --> 00:25:31,925
Speaker 4: a it's a rough edged knife edge that I sort

521
00:25:31,965 --> 00:25:34,005
Speaker 4: of run on when I'm when I'm talking about the kids.

522
00:25:34,765 --> 00:25:37,125
Speaker 4: It's the decision to keep having them. You know that

523
00:25:37,205 --> 00:25:41,165
Speaker 4: there were times when you know, I decided no, I

524
00:25:41,285 --> 00:25:43,525
Speaker 4: was going to go after Sarah. When I lost my

525
00:25:43,645 --> 00:25:46,205
Speaker 4: third one, you know, I went in and discussed having

526
00:25:46,245 --> 00:25:48,445
Speaker 4: my tubes type because I just wasn't even going to

527
00:25:48,485 --> 00:25:51,525
Speaker 4: go there. But considering I wasn't, you know, either thirty

528
00:25:51,605 --> 00:25:54,485
Speaker 4: or something quite yet or any just over, doctor said

529
00:25:54,525 --> 00:25:56,405
Speaker 4: to me, we can't, You're too young, you know. And

530
00:25:56,485 --> 00:25:58,845
Speaker 4: I got denied, you know, pretty much to do it

531
00:25:59,285 --> 00:26:01,485
Speaker 4: because they were concerned I was doing it for an

532
00:26:01,525 --> 00:26:05,045
Speaker 4: emotional reason, not a you know, and that made no

533
00:26:05,125 --> 00:26:07,005
Speaker 4: sense to me because I'm sitting there saying to the doctor,

534
00:26:07,045 --> 00:26:09,685
Speaker 4: how am I supposed to differentiate from an emotional reason

535
00:26:09,845 --> 00:26:11,885
Speaker 4: as to why I don't you know sort of thing.

536
00:26:12,365 --> 00:26:14,685
Speaker 4: But you know, there was a few years that went

537
00:26:14,805 --> 00:26:19,085
Speaker 4: between Sarah and then deciding to go with Laura. But

538
00:26:19,285 --> 00:26:23,525
Speaker 4: you know, the stress mass stress of worrying constantly and

539
00:26:24,245 --> 00:26:26,445
Speaker 4: ended up being quite paranoid when it came. But when

540
00:26:26,805 --> 00:26:29,605
Speaker 4: Laura came around, I wouldn't wish that on anyone, I said,

541
00:26:29,685 --> 00:26:31,525
Speaker 4: because it was you know, I'm not going to say

542
00:26:31,525 --> 00:26:33,485
Speaker 4: it was a terrible decision, because it wasn't. You know,

543
00:26:33,925 --> 00:26:36,245
Speaker 4: I met Laura. She was beautiful and wonderful and the

544
00:26:36,325 --> 00:26:39,965
Speaker 4: joy of my life. So it wasn't a bad decision

545
00:26:40,045 --> 00:26:42,005
Speaker 4: as far as I was concerned in the end. But yeah,

546
00:26:42,125 --> 00:26:45,165
Speaker 4: to make the decision, that was quite a racking process

547
00:26:45,285 --> 00:26:47,525
Speaker 4: to go through. And of course, you know, I had

548
00:26:47,805 --> 00:26:51,165
Speaker 4: a husband at the time to be considering, and you know,

549
00:26:51,765 --> 00:26:54,885
Speaker 4: when you go down these roads. I think what I

550
00:26:55,005 --> 00:26:59,485
Speaker 4: sort of lacked in my relationship with Craig was conversation.

551
00:26:59,845 --> 00:27:03,565
Speaker 4: We rarely ever actually really truly spoke about stuff, and

552
00:27:03,685 --> 00:27:06,285
Speaker 4: I think that's vitally important. You really need to communicate.

553
00:27:06,885 --> 00:27:09,285
Speaker 4: So for anyone else that was going through something like mine,

554
00:27:09,965 --> 00:27:12,005
Speaker 4: who's having a trying to decide whether they're going to

555
00:27:12,325 --> 00:27:15,645
Speaker 4: have another child or not, I would always be saying, well,

556
00:27:15,725 --> 00:27:18,405
Speaker 4: make sure you have those conversations and you make them deep,

557
00:27:18,485 --> 00:27:21,125
Speaker 4: you take them mean, and you make them last, and

558
00:27:21,645 --> 00:27:24,325
Speaker 4: you really make sure you know, so think because I

559
00:27:24,645 --> 00:27:26,965
Speaker 4: you know, I have said to friends in the past

560
00:27:27,205 --> 00:27:31,845
Speaker 4: sometimes that. You know, if Calee of my very first

561
00:27:31,925 --> 00:27:35,285
Speaker 4: one had survived, I may not have had the other throat.

562
00:27:35,485 --> 00:27:37,285
Speaker 4: I might have just been quite happy enough to have

563
00:27:37,365 --> 00:27:40,925
Speaker 4: been a single parent, you know, single child, household. But

564
00:27:41,365 --> 00:27:43,445
Speaker 4: that's not how fate, not path and not not.

565
00:27:43,525 --> 00:27:44,005
Speaker 5: Where we went.

566
00:27:45,085 --> 00:27:48,325
Speaker 4: So yeah, but trauma for me is like, you know,

567
00:27:48,565 --> 00:27:51,445
Speaker 4: everyone always says, you've suffered so much trauma, why are

568
00:27:51,445 --> 00:27:53,525
Speaker 4: you're even still standing? Why you're not rocking in a

569
00:27:53,565 --> 00:27:57,365
Speaker 4: corner somewhere. And my answer to that is because I

570
00:27:57,485 --> 00:28:00,965
Speaker 4: guess everyone's individual on how they process these things, you know,

571
00:28:01,165 --> 00:28:04,805
Speaker 4: I said, So everyone says, oh, you've never had the

572
00:28:04,885 --> 00:28:07,765
Speaker 4: chance to grieve, and I'm like, well, technically that's wrong.

573
00:28:07,925 --> 00:28:10,325
Speaker 4: You know, I did actually go to all four funerals,

574
00:28:10,765 --> 00:28:12,925
Speaker 4: and you go through the grieving process. By the time

575
00:28:12,965 --> 00:28:15,845
Speaker 4: you're getting around to a funeral, you know, you've got

576
00:28:15,885 --> 00:28:19,365
Speaker 4: the weeks and weeks after a funeral that is, you know,

577
00:28:19,565 --> 00:28:22,405
Speaker 4: that are the most depressing parts of your life that

578
00:28:22,445 --> 00:28:26,325
Speaker 4: you're ever going to come across. But eventually everyone around you,

579
00:28:27,645 --> 00:28:30,725
Speaker 4: you know, moves on. I said, you can't keep you know,

580
00:28:31,685 --> 00:28:34,845
Speaker 4: staying in that grief mode. It's not healthy. You've got

581
00:28:34,885 --> 00:28:36,565
Speaker 4: to try and attempt to get on with your life

582
00:28:36,565 --> 00:28:38,685
Speaker 4: in some fashion and decide which direction you want to

583
00:28:38,725 --> 00:28:41,165
Speaker 4: take it in. And that's exactly what I did. I

584
00:28:41,325 --> 00:28:44,365
Speaker 4: kept moving forward. Others didn't, you know. You know, I

585
00:28:44,445 --> 00:28:46,685
Speaker 4: don't think my ex husband moved forward. I think he

586
00:28:46,885 --> 00:28:50,765
Speaker 4: was always blagging behind a little. And I think in

587
00:28:50,805 --> 00:28:52,445
Speaker 4: the end, I just moved forward a bit too far,

588
00:28:53,005 --> 00:28:55,485
Speaker 4: and you know, we ended up separating them. Yeah, so

589
00:28:56,525 --> 00:28:59,725
Speaker 4: I still do that now. Moving forward is my sole focus.

590
00:28:59,845 --> 00:29:03,565
Speaker 4: There's no dwelling on past too much. There's no lamenting it,

591
00:29:03,805 --> 00:29:08,565
Speaker 4: there's no you can't change the past. I try really

592
00:29:08,605 --> 00:29:11,645
Speaker 4: hard not to have any negativity or toxic thoughts about

593
00:29:11,685 --> 00:29:16,285
Speaker 4: the past, you know, and or people that have offended

594
00:29:16,365 --> 00:29:19,125
Speaker 4: or heard or betrayed or done whatever. I tried very

595
00:29:19,205 --> 00:29:22,205
Speaker 4: hard to just sort of go okayble those decisions have

596
00:29:22,285 --> 00:29:24,205
Speaker 4: you made, that's the path they're chosen, and there's just

597
00:29:24,245 --> 00:29:27,165
Speaker 4: a path I'm taking, and you just have to go

598
00:29:27,325 --> 00:29:28,245
Speaker 4: forward from there.

599
00:29:29,205 --> 00:29:33,645
Speaker 3: Does that extend That sort of moving forward and not

600
00:29:34,805 --> 00:29:39,605
Speaker 3: worrying too much about the past is extended to police

601
00:29:39,845 --> 00:29:42,605
Speaker 3: and how investigators handled your case.

602
00:29:42,725 --> 00:29:45,845
Speaker 4: Because don't get me wrong, when I get police pulling

603
00:29:45,925 --> 00:29:47,165
Speaker 4: up next to us in the car, I can be

604
00:29:47,205 --> 00:29:47,885
Speaker 4: a tad nervous.

605
00:29:48,325 --> 00:29:50,285
Speaker 1: Really, I mean that happens to all of us, but

606
00:29:50,445 --> 00:29:51,605
Speaker 1: to you, especially.

607
00:29:52,005 --> 00:29:53,045
Speaker 5: As an automatic thing.

608
00:29:53,485 --> 00:29:55,205
Speaker 4: You know. There's a bit of a funny story when

609
00:29:55,205 --> 00:29:56,765
Speaker 4: I first got my license and I had to be

610
00:29:56,805 --> 00:30:00,725
Speaker 4: pulled over my very first breath test. The window came down,

611
00:30:00,765 --> 00:30:02,565
Speaker 4: and I was so nervous that I think I was

612
00:30:02,725 --> 00:30:05,765
Speaker 4: fumbling and stuttering a little, so he probably thought something

613
00:30:05,765 --> 00:30:08,725
Speaker 4: wrong with his lady, and because she's not reacting, you know,

614
00:30:09,365 --> 00:30:10,845
Speaker 4: you know, and I had to find my license and

615
00:30:10,925 --> 00:30:13,645
Speaker 4: give it to him. And once I've given it to him,

616
00:30:14,285 --> 00:30:17,085
Speaker 4: he's looked at it, and I think he's then looked

617
00:30:17,125 --> 00:30:20,045
Speaker 4: at me, and then he's just gone, thanks very much,

618
00:30:20,045 --> 00:30:20,605
Speaker 4: here you can go.

619
00:30:21,685 --> 00:30:24,405
Speaker 5: So I don't know, don't know to this day whether.

620
00:30:24,565 --> 00:30:26,445
Speaker 1: Him for me might have worked in your favor in

621
00:30:26,525 --> 00:30:27,325
Speaker 1: that moment.

622
00:30:27,965 --> 00:30:31,365
Speaker 4: I don't know whether you recognize the picture and just went, oh, geez,

623
00:30:31,445 --> 00:30:33,685
Speaker 4: you know, just let this one go, or whether it's

624
00:30:33,965 --> 00:30:36,485
Speaker 4: you know, he was just being kind, or whether it

625
00:30:36,605 --> 00:30:38,725
Speaker 4: was you know, I blew with the thing and blew

626
00:30:38,805 --> 00:30:40,445
Speaker 4: nothing I said, so it was all a case of

627
00:30:40,485 --> 00:30:44,205
Speaker 4: you know, standard thing. But yeah, it's you know, I

628
00:30:44,245 --> 00:30:46,605
Speaker 4: don't think it's necessary police for me that I might

629
00:30:46,685 --> 00:30:48,445
Speaker 4: have a bit of a negative reaction to. But if

630
00:30:48,445 --> 00:30:50,365
Speaker 4: you start talking to me about detectives and some of

631
00:30:50,405 --> 00:30:51,885
Speaker 4: their tactics will then that's different.

632
00:30:52,325 --> 00:30:56,605
Speaker 3: When I read into how especially how they confronted your

633
00:30:56,645 --> 00:31:01,125
Speaker 3: ex husband, Greg, they really when you look at the

634
00:31:01,245 --> 00:31:05,645
Speaker 3: conversations that we had, it feels very leading, like they

635
00:31:05,765 --> 00:31:09,165
Speaker 3: led him into making a decision, and then that sort

636
00:31:09,205 --> 00:31:12,285
Speaker 3: of tarnishes your relationship with him from that point on

637
00:31:12,445 --> 00:31:14,845
Speaker 3: because he spends the rest of his time believing that

638
00:31:14,925 --> 00:31:17,085
Speaker 3: you are guilty and that there is no way that

639
00:31:17,645 --> 00:31:20,765
Speaker 3: it could possibly be otherwise. And the way that they've

640
00:31:21,445 --> 00:31:25,645
Speaker 3: treated you in that process too is I mean, on reflection,

641
00:31:26,485 --> 00:31:28,005
Speaker 3: there are a lot of decisions that were made that

642
00:31:28,485 --> 00:31:30,645
Speaker 3: that you know, the conversations that we had with you

643
00:31:30,805 --> 00:31:33,205
Speaker 3: a grieving young mother, should not have happened in the

644
00:31:33,245 --> 00:31:35,765
Speaker 3: way that they did. So how do you how do

645
00:31:35,845 --> 00:31:38,405
Speaker 3: you feel about those detectives and the way they handled

646
00:31:38,645 --> 00:31:39,125
Speaker 3: your case.

647
00:31:40,245 --> 00:31:46,365
Speaker 4: I it's a hard call, because you know, as far

648
00:31:46,445 --> 00:31:49,285
Speaker 4: as I'm concerned, police and detectives are needed in our society.

649
00:31:49,365 --> 00:31:50,245
Speaker 5: We can't do without them.

650
00:31:50,725 --> 00:31:53,445
Speaker 4: But of course, in any major organizations, I'm sure you

651
00:31:53,565 --> 00:31:55,525
Speaker 4: have good bad and average, you know, I said, So

652
00:31:56,125 --> 00:32:00,645
Speaker 4: it's just how it rolls. Yes, some of the tactics

653
00:32:00,725 --> 00:32:03,445
Speaker 4: and things that we used to make sure that a

654
00:32:03,565 --> 00:32:06,445
Speaker 4: case was built for me. You know, I sit here

655
00:32:06,525 --> 00:32:09,805
Speaker 4: now and go, okay, you take it right back to

656
00:32:10,165 --> 00:32:13,765
Speaker 4: even when he was first, you know, he first approached

657
00:32:13,805 --> 00:32:16,845
Speaker 4: the DPP about my matter and was pretty much told

658
00:32:17,205 --> 00:32:19,245
Speaker 4: you're going to need more. There's not enough here, you know,

659
00:32:19,325 --> 00:32:22,405
Speaker 4: I said. So he on his own from what we

660
00:32:22,485 --> 00:32:24,525
Speaker 4: can gather, just kept going.

661
00:32:24,765 --> 00:32:25,085
Speaker 5: I said.

662
00:32:25,165 --> 00:32:27,165
Speaker 4: So it was sort of like, okay, you were just

663
00:32:27,245 --> 00:32:29,605
Speaker 4: told there's not enough here, but you still going after me. Anyway.

664
00:32:29,725 --> 00:32:32,845
Speaker 4: That's that's where you know, I can sit and go

665
00:32:33,005 --> 00:32:34,725
Speaker 4: and shake my head and so just sort of go.

666
00:32:34,885 --> 00:32:37,925
Speaker 4: Would that happened today, I'm not sure, you know. I

667
00:32:38,245 --> 00:32:41,445
Speaker 4: hope that hopefully some lessons were sort of learned here,

668
00:32:41,765 --> 00:32:45,445
Speaker 4: especially on how you treat grieving people, I said, because

669
00:32:45,445 --> 00:32:47,725
Speaker 4: it's sort of like to to want to speak to

670
00:32:47,805 --> 00:32:52,085
Speaker 4: a grieving person at a hospital straight up when their

671
00:32:52,125 --> 00:32:57,245
Speaker 4: brain's not even connected because they're growing traumatically through so

672
00:32:57,405 --> 00:33:00,445
Speaker 4: much staff. I'm not sure that's a good thing to do,

673
00:33:00,925 --> 00:33:04,085
Speaker 4: I said, Because yeah, that you know, things are said

674
00:33:04,205 --> 00:33:06,685
Speaker 4: or not said or inferences made and all sorts of things,

675
00:33:07,365 --> 00:33:09,925
Speaker 4: but to build a case on that. I do find

676
00:33:09,965 --> 00:33:11,965
Speaker 4: that a little on the offensive side, and it's just

677
00:33:12,085 --> 00:33:14,365
Speaker 4: sort of like, you know, but I hope Lesson don't

678
00:33:14,405 --> 00:33:15,325
Speaker 4: do that again, you know, I.

679
00:33:15,365 --> 00:33:17,125
Speaker 5: Said, because it's you know, it's not a good thing

680
00:33:17,205 --> 00:33:17,325
Speaker 5: to do.

681
00:33:18,045 --> 00:33:20,845
Speaker 4: I sort of keep telling myself he had a job

682
00:33:20,925 --> 00:33:24,685
Speaker 4: to do, and he certainly went and did it. I said,

683
00:33:24,765 --> 00:33:27,885
Speaker 4: So I can't, you know, I can't really say that

684
00:33:28,005 --> 00:33:29,565
Speaker 4: much more about it. I'm not going to say I

685
00:33:29,645 --> 00:33:31,245
Speaker 4: hate the man because I don't personally know him enough

686
00:33:31,285 --> 00:33:31,925
Speaker 4: to say you hate him.

687
00:33:31,925 --> 00:33:33,085
Speaker 5: You don't hate someone that you don't know.

688
00:33:34,405 --> 00:33:36,445
Speaker 3: Next, Kathleen opens up about what it was like to

689
00:33:36,525 --> 00:33:40,165
Speaker 3: have her personal diaries turned into evidence against her in court.

690
00:33:43,565 --> 00:33:45,725
Speaker 3: How do you feel about the use of say, your

691
00:33:45,765 --> 00:33:48,125
Speaker 3: diaries is evidence that.

692
00:33:48,245 --> 00:33:52,365
Speaker 5: As far as I was concerned, was offensive and to

693
00:33:52,685 --> 00:33:53,205
Speaker 5: have we've.

694
00:33:53,045 --> 00:33:55,565
Speaker 3: All written things in our diaries in the moment that

695
00:33:55,685 --> 00:33:57,605
Speaker 3: make no sense or that makes sense at the time,

696
00:33:57,925 --> 00:34:00,805
Speaker 3: like could be taken in any which way depending on

697
00:34:00,845 --> 00:34:01,725
Speaker 3: your mental health that day.

698
00:34:01,845 --> 00:34:06,085
Speaker 4: Right. Absolutely, And I don't know how many people, especially women,

699
00:34:06,525 --> 00:34:08,805
Speaker 4: who's doing you know, the majority if you look at

700
00:34:08,805 --> 00:34:11,645
Speaker 4: percentage as usually women that write in these sorts of things.

701
00:34:12,405 --> 00:34:15,525
Speaker 4: So it's it's to me to use something like that,

702
00:34:16,325 --> 00:34:18,885
Speaker 4: and I only pluck out certain words and then weaponize

703
00:34:19,165 --> 00:34:22,085
Speaker 4: was to me the disgusting thing to do. And we

704
00:34:22,205 --> 00:34:25,005
Speaker 4: all agreed on that. It didn't matter who we spoke

705
00:34:25,045 --> 00:34:29,125
Speaker 4: to or you know, but how you can get that

706
00:34:29,245 --> 00:34:32,085
Speaker 4: point across in a legal world is a total different,

707
00:34:32,565 --> 00:34:35,445
Speaker 4: you know sort of thing. You know, My defense's team's

708
00:34:35,965 --> 00:34:39,525
Speaker 4: tactic was to simply say, nothing to see here, don't

709
00:34:39,525 --> 00:34:41,605
Speaker 4: know why you're using them, nothing to see here. Well,

710
00:34:41,645 --> 00:34:43,765
Speaker 4: that wasn't good enough, and I got done for them anyway,

711
00:34:44,045 --> 00:34:46,805
Speaker 4: and they were used in a specific way to make

712
00:34:46,845 --> 00:34:50,125
Speaker 4: sure that a case was bolstered and that the case

713
00:34:50,205 --> 00:34:52,285
Speaker 4: was pretty much built up around them. I said, So,

714
00:34:53,565 --> 00:34:55,645
Speaker 4: for all intents and purposes, I didn't really have hope.

715
00:34:55,765 --> 00:34:59,005
Speaker 4: I've gone down, whether I loved it or not, because

716
00:34:59,365 --> 00:35:01,845
Speaker 4: the sign of the times, the fact that met our

717
00:35:01,925 --> 00:35:04,605
Speaker 4: law still existed and was threading through everything even way

718
00:35:04,645 --> 00:35:04,965
Speaker 4: back then.

719
00:35:05,845 --> 00:35:06,685
Speaker 5: Didn't really have hope.

720
00:35:06,805 --> 00:35:09,885
Speaker 3: Actually, so you're really aware of that, knew that in

721
00:35:10,005 --> 00:35:11,645
Speaker 3: that time when you were facing court?

722
00:35:11,725 --> 00:35:12,485
Speaker 1: Were you aware of that?

723
00:35:12,645 --> 00:35:12,685
Speaker 4: No?

724
00:35:13,205 --> 00:35:13,645
Speaker 5: Probably not.

725
00:35:13,765 --> 00:35:16,405
Speaker 4: Back then. I was always hopeful, you know, but I

726
00:35:16,565 --> 00:35:22,885
Speaker 4: was fairly ignorant, naive, and I kept thinking that the

727
00:35:22,965 --> 00:35:24,885
Speaker 4: system would listen to me at some point and get

728
00:35:24,925 --> 00:35:28,005
Speaker 4: it right. You know, I said, so to eventually find

729
00:35:28,045 --> 00:35:30,845
Speaker 4: out and land in your land in prison, blinking, going, well,

730
00:35:30,885 --> 00:35:32,645
Speaker 4: that didn't work. I don't know what's going on there.

731
00:35:33,125 --> 00:35:34,965
Speaker 4: But it's too late by then, you know, I said,

732
00:35:35,005 --> 00:35:38,085
Speaker 4: so you precedents have been set, legal arguments have been done,

733
00:35:38,205 --> 00:35:40,885
Speaker 4: you know, I said, you start to become history when

734
00:35:40,925 --> 00:35:43,045
Speaker 4: it comes to you know, students looking up things and

735
00:35:43,125 --> 00:35:46,685
Speaker 4: doing and all that sort of stuff. So it's a

736
00:35:46,765 --> 00:35:51,445
Speaker 4: tough it's it's literally a case of how do you

737
00:35:51,565 --> 00:35:55,285
Speaker 4: defend your random thoughts that come out of your head

738
00:35:56,005 --> 00:35:57,605
Speaker 4: that you were still enough to stick on a bit

739
00:35:57,685 --> 00:36:00,485
Speaker 4: of paper, and then someone goes and reads them. And

740
00:36:00,725 --> 00:36:04,285
Speaker 4: every individual has a different way of interpreting something they

741
00:36:04,365 --> 00:36:07,445
Speaker 4: might read, you know, I said so, And I can

742
00:36:07,525 --> 00:36:09,405
Speaker 4: still do it now. Something might flash up on the

743
00:36:09,525 --> 00:36:12,485
Speaker 4: news and I'll read it and go, oh wow, that

744
00:36:12,605 --> 00:36:14,725
Speaker 4: means blah blah blah. And yet a partner can be

745
00:36:14,765 --> 00:36:16,565
Speaker 4: sitting next to me and go, eh, I didn't read that.

746
00:36:16,725 --> 00:36:18,525
Speaker 4: I think that reads blah blah blah, And I'm like,

747
00:36:18,765 --> 00:36:21,925
Speaker 4: it's a prime example. You know, yeah, and you know,

748
00:36:22,165 --> 00:36:25,085
Speaker 4: and sometimes I can still write stuff even today, and

749
00:36:25,245 --> 00:36:28,565
Speaker 4: someone will read it and then not really understand what's

750
00:36:28,605 --> 00:36:30,325
Speaker 4: come from and take it in a totally different way.

751
00:36:31,245 --> 00:36:35,085
Speaker 4: So it's an eternal argument, really eternal thing that just

752
00:36:35,165 --> 00:36:35,605
Speaker 4: keeps going.

753
00:36:35,925 --> 00:36:39,085
Speaker 3: So you said, then, like your land in prison wide item,

754
00:36:39,125 --> 00:36:41,445
Speaker 3: blinking and wondering where the hell you ended up here?

755
00:36:42,725 --> 00:36:44,365
Speaker 3: Like I mentioned before, you had to go into solitary

756
00:36:44,365 --> 00:36:47,725
Speaker 3: confinement because people who are accused of killing children are

757
00:36:47,725 --> 00:36:51,645
Speaker 3: often targeted by other inmates. How because that goes for

758
00:36:51,685 --> 00:36:53,245
Speaker 3: a couple of years, But how do you then transition

759
00:36:53,365 --> 00:36:56,805
Speaker 3: into the general population, and how do you protect yourself

760
00:36:56,805 --> 00:37:00,485
Speaker 3: from being a target at that point? Like I imagine

761
00:37:00,525 --> 00:37:02,565
Speaker 3: you didn't have too many hand to hand combat skills

762
00:37:02,645 --> 00:37:05,925
Speaker 3: going into prison at that time, thirty something year old woman, Like,

763
00:37:06,325 --> 00:37:07,325
Speaker 3: how do you defend yourself?

764
00:37:08,045 --> 00:37:08,245
Speaker 4: For me?

765
00:37:08,485 --> 00:37:08,965
Speaker 5: Personally?

766
00:37:11,045 --> 00:37:15,565
Speaker 4: I basically it was almost like I put up the

767
00:37:15,645 --> 00:37:20,725
Speaker 4: shield of Bravado, And because I knew in my heart

768
00:37:20,805 --> 00:37:22,605
Speaker 4: that they all got it wrong and I wasn't supposed

769
00:37:22,605 --> 00:37:26,685
Speaker 4: to be there, It very quickly dawned on me though

770
00:37:26,725 --> 00:37:29,325
Speaker 4: that I couldn't keep saying that, because when you're in there,

771
00:37:29,365 --> 00:37:31,045
Speaker 4: in a situation and you're in a prison for what

772
00:37:31,125 --> 00:37:33,405
Speaker 4: you're in there for, like mine, it doesn't matter how

773
00:37:33,445 --> 00:37:35,165
Speaker 4: much a protest as far as I concerned, the court

774
00:37:35,165 --> 00:37:35,645
Speaker 4: stuck you there.

775
00:37:35,685 --> 00:37:37,685
Speaker 5: So you did it, I said, So you don't.

776
00:37:37,725 --> 00:37:40,085
Speaker 4: It's no point, and you're jumping up and down saying

777
00:37:40,125 --> 00:37:42,245
Speaker 4: but I didn't, you know, blah blah blah. So I

778
00:37:42,365 --> 00:37:44,925
Speaker 4: learned to go quiet on that side of things. So

779
00:37:45,125 --> 00:37:47,165
Speaker 4: for me, it was more of a I think I

780
00:37:47,285 --> 00:37:50,405
Speaker 4: drew down on the backbone that I already sort of

781
00:37:50,525 --> 00:37:53,205
Speaker 4: seem you had. And there was a lot of bravado

782
00:37:53,445 --> 00:37:58,605
Speaker 4: pretty much going on, and the ability sometimes to talk

783
00:37:59,365 --> 00:38:02,285
Speaker 4: and eventually talk someone down if I thought that they

784
00:38:02,325 --> 00:38:04,965
Speaker 4: weren't actually seriously wanting to hurt me, that they just

785
00:38:05,085 --> 00:38:08,125
Speaker 4: were yelling at me and screaming and blustering and carrying on.

786
00:38:09,005 --> 00:38:10,885
Speaker 4: There was quite a percentage of times where I could

787
00:38:10,925 --> 00:38:13,765
Speaker 4: say some stuff that just made them stop and blink,

788
00:38:14,485 --> 00:38:16,925
Speaker 4: and they would go still swear at me, but they

789
00:38:16,965 --> 00:38:20,165
Speaker 4: would walk away just shaking heads instead of continuing to

790
00:38:20,245 --> 00:38:23,925
Speaker 4: abuse me. I also did the thing of you know,

791
00:38:24,165 --> 00:38:26,805
Speaker 4: past someone they might be negative being given you glory

792
00:38:26,845 --> 00:38:28,485
Speaker 4: eye every time I look at you. But I used

793
00:38:28,485 --> 00:38:31,565
Speaker 4: to walk past, going hey go every time, and sooner

794
00:38:31,685 --> 00:38:32,685
Speaker 4: or later you catch.

795
00:38:32,525 --> 00:38:33,165
Speaker 5: Them out and they go.

796
00:38:33,445 --> 00:38:36,645
Speaker 1: I killed them with kindness in the end, you know,

797
00:38:36,845 --> 00:38:37,285
Speaker 1: so things.

798
00:38:37,445 --> 00:38:41,805
Speaker 4: So it probably took i'd say within about five years

799
00:38:42,005 --> 00:38:45,285
Speaker 4: people that most of the women had realized she's here

800
00:38:45,325 --> 00:38:47,405
Speaker 4: to stay. We can't get rid of up. And the

801
00:38:47,485 --> 00:38:49,605
Speaker 4: standard argument I was always saying was, you know, you

802
00:38:49,725 --> 00:38:51,405
Speaker 4: say I don't belong in here. Where would you like

803
00:38:51,525 --> 00:38:53,965
Speaker 4: us be to go? You provide me with you know,

804
00:38:54,805 --> 00:38:57,045
Speaker 4: this is where I am. We're all wearing the same

805
00:38:57,085 --> 00:38:59,725
Speaker 4: green tracksuit. We all believe red blood if anything happens

806
00:38:59,765 --> 00:39:01,765
Speaker 4: to us. You know, I said that we're all female here.

807
00:39:02,405 --> 00:39:06,005
Speaker 4: So therefore, in that respect, no matter what anybody does,

808
00:39:06,085 --> 00:39:08,845
Speaker 4: we should be bedding together a little bit, not continually

809
00:39:08,885 --> 00:39:11,685
Speaker 4: fighting and carrying on with each other. So I tried

810
00:39:11,725 --> 00:39:14,165
Speaker 4: to use logic as much as possible when it came

811
00:39:14,325 --> 00:39:17,085
Speaker 4: to talking. But of course you get some women in

812
00:39:17,125 --> 00:39:20,165
Speaker 4: there who just stayed here logic, they're totally illogical. So

813
00:39:20,445 --> 00:39:23,525
Speaker 4: in that respect, I think it was literally a case

814
00:39:23,645 --> 00:39:28,485
Speaker 4: of defending myself by having so much backbone and bravado

815
00:39:29,325 --> 00:39:31,605
Speaker 4: meant that they were a little unsure how I would

816
00:39:31,645 --> 00:39:33,805
Speaker 4: react if they took me on. I said, so that

817
00:39:34,365 --> 00:39:36,365
Speaker 4: that gray area of whether I was going to fight

818
00:39:36,445 --> 00:39:38,765
Speaker 4: with them or not ninety percent of the time was

819
00:39:38,885 --> 00:39:41,285
Speaker 4: enough for people to go the year a year. We'll

820
00:39:41,365 --> 00:39:44,525
Speaker 4: just leave that one, you know, so everybody deals with

821
00:39:44,645 --> 00:39:46,405
Speaker 4: as I said, you know, I had so many women,

822
00:39:46,725 --> 00:39:49,085
Speaker 4: you know that there was about when I was in there.

823
00:39:49,205 --> 00:39:51,805
Speaker 4: The number grew up to about ten of us women

824
00:39:51,845 --> 00:39:54,165
Speaker 4: who were in for similar sorts of things, and every

825
00:39:54,165 --> 00:39:56,725
Speaker 4: one of us was different on how we chose to

826
00:39:56,765 --> 00:40:01,085
Speaker 4: handle other inmates, you know. So we were never really

827
00:40:01,125 --> 00:40:03,485
Speaker 4: in main population, but we did end up in wings

828
00:40:03,525 --> 00:40:06,045
Speaker 4: that were thirty to forty women strong. I said, so

829
00:40:06,245 --> 00:40:10,045
Speaker 4: it's still, you know, you're still battling to survive the

830
00:40:10,125 --> 00:40:11,485
Speaker 4: so called hierarchy of prison.

831
00:40:11,645 --> 00:40:13,965
Speaker 1: You know, I said, so where would you sat in

832
00:40:14,045 --> 00:40:14,725
Speaker 1: the hierarchy?

833
00:40:16,685 --> 00:40:19,165
Speaker 4: I was never Queen Bee put it that way, but

834
00:40:19,605 --> 00:40:23,045
Speaker 4: I was never down the bottom either, So it was

835
00:40:23,165 --> 00:40:25,605
Speaker 4: you know, I simply just chose to have my head down,

836
00:40:26,165 --> 00:40:28,005
Speaker 4: stay out of other people's business, which is what you do,

837
00:40:28,565 --> 00:40:30,605
Speaker 4: and worked as much as possible.

838
00:40:31,205 --> 00:40:35,365
Speaker 5: And I think once staff.

839
00:40:36,485 --> 00:40:38,445
Speaker 4: Figure out that you're a hard worker, and they can

840
00:40:38,525 --> 00:40:40,525
Speaker 4: get things, get you to do stuff, and then they

841
00:40:40,565 --> 00:40:42,845
Speaker 4: can rely on you to do it. You spend far

842
00:40:42,965 --> 00:40:45,605
Speaker 4: less time hanging around a whole lot of women who

843
00:40:45,645 --> 00:40:49,245
Speaker 4: are gossiping and just becoming negative in general. I used

844
00:40:49,285 --> 00:40:51,365
Speaker 4: to always try to align myself with people who would

845
00:40:51,405 --> 00:40:54,565
Speaker 4: joke and laugh and be merry rather than those who

846
00:40:54,605 --> 00:40:58,925
Speaker 4: were too focused on being victims and you know, crying

847
00:40:58,965 --> 00:41:02,645
Speaker 4: and lamenting that why they were there. And people are

848
00:41:02,645 --> 00:41:04,565
Speaker 4: always surprised when you say that you would laugh while

849
00:41:04,605 --> 00:41:07,365
Speaker 4: you're in prison, But there are some absolutely cracker humorous

850
00:41:07,405 --> 00:41:08,605
Speaker 4: things that can happen in a prison.

851
00:41:09,325 --> 00:41:11,725
Speaker 5: And if you don't have a sense of humor, you

852
00:41:11,805 --> 00:41:12,645
Speaker 5: know what you're supposed to do.

853
00:41:12,725 --> 00:41:14,485
Speaker 4: I do have a rather dark sense of humor, so

854
00:41:14,565 --> 00:41:17,165
Speaker 4: it's not a you know, but you know prisoners, can

855
00:41:17,245 --> 00:41:19,565
Speaker 4: you make light of any situation if it helps them

856
00:41:19,605 --> 00:41:20,445
Speaker 4: cope with why they're there?

857
00:41:20,845 --> 00:41:23,485
Speaker 3: Do you then leave all that behind, Kathleen, Like, do

858
00:41:23,565 --> 00:41:25,525
Speaker 3: you step away from prison? These are people you've spent

859
00:41:25,725 --> 00:41:29,005
Speaker 3: decades with and staff that you would have interacted with

860
00:41:29,085 --> 00:41:29,765
Speaker 3: every single day.

861
00:41:29,845 --> 00:41:31,965
Speaker 1: Do you just leave all that behind when you leave prison?

862
00:41:32,045 --> 00:41:33,325
Speaker 1: Or do you stay in contact with people.

863
00:41:33,685 --> 00:41:36,965
Speaker 4: I've got a handful of dear friends that I made

864
00:41:37,005 --> 00:41:39,485
Speaker 4: whilst I was inside because I was extremely picky and

865
00:41:39,565 --> 00:41:41,805
Speaker 4: choosy about who I made friends with. And I used

866
00:41:41,845 --> 00:41:44,485
Speaker 4: to say that I would make friendly acquaintances and friendlies,

867
00:41:44,605 --> 00:41:48,405
Speaker 4: never friends. But occasionally one would sneak in that I

868
00:41:48,445 --> 00:41:52,565
Speaker 4: would have more more relatable with. So you know, probably one, two, three,

869
00:41:52,605 --> 00:41:54,965
Speaker 4: I've probably got about four if that, and one lady

870
00:41:55,005 --> 00:41:57,845
Speaker 4: that is still inside that I you know, she rings

871
00:41:57,845 --> 00:41:59,485
Speaker 4: and we have a chat and I like to hear

872
00:41:59,525 --> 00:42:02,685
Speaker 4: that she's doing well and that you know her plans

873
00:42:02,725 --> 00:42:06,285
Speaker 4: for getting out, which turned out to be if I

874
00:42:06,365 --> 00:42:08,885
Speaker 4: had stayed in there, we both would have been going

875
00:42:08,925 --> 00:42:12,805
Speaker 4: parole twenty twenty eight, six months apart. So she's still

876
00:42:12,845 --> 00:42:14,805
Speaker 4: doing very well, and I know she's going to succeed

877
00:42:14,885 --> 00:42:17,325
Speaker 4: when she gets out, you know, I said so. But

878
00:42:18,445 --> 00:42:22,005
Speaker 4: they are people who are capable of turning things around

879
00:42:22,805 --> 00:42:26,565
Speaker 4: and not drowning in the seriousness and the traumatic side.

880
00:42:26,405 --> 00:42:27,085
Speaker 5: Of being in prison.

881
00:42:27,725 --> 00:42:30,245
Speaker 3: So you've mentioned a few times that moving forward has

882
00:42:30,285 --> 00:42:32,365
Speaker 3: been a focus for pretty much your entire life and

883
00:42:32,405 --> 00:42:35,965
Speaker 3: has helped you remain resilient in times rather than looking

884
00:42:36,045 --> 00:42:37,125
Speaker 3: back and wallowing in.

885
00:42:38,085 --> 00:42:42,125
Speaker 1: Self pity or in grief. So where does forward look

886
00:42:42,245 --> 00:42:42,605
Speaker 1: like for you?

887
00:42:42,725 --> 00:42:45,325
Speaker 3: Because you and Tracy have written a book together, which

888
00:42:45,445 --> 00:42:48,725
Speaker 3: you have been touring around the place and really telling

889
00:42:48,765 --> 00:42:51,445
Speaker 3: your story and advocating for women who find themselves in

890
00:42:51,485 --> 00:42:54,805
Speaker 3: this situation, which, interestingly, at the time when you were

891
00:42:55,245 --> 00:42:58,645
Speaker 3: before the courts, it was like unheard of that four

892
00:42:58,765 --> 00:43:02,445
Speaker 3: children could all you know, die from SIDS from the

893
00:43:02,525 --> 00:43:05,645
Speaker 3: same family, And it's been revealed over time that that

894
00:43:05,725 --> 00:43:07,445
Speaker 3: is in fact not the case, and that it has

895
00:43:07,525 --> 00:43:10,845
Speaker 3: happened to other families, and your advocacy is now making

896
00:43:10,925 --> 00:43:13,405
Speaker 3: sure that people understand your story and how it can

897
00:43:14,365 --> 00:43:19,445
Speaker 3: be implied to many others. Is that where future Kathleen

898
00:43:19,645 --> 00:43:21,125
Speaker 3: lives in the advocacy space?

899
00:43:21,405 --> 00:43:24,245
Speaker 1: Does she have other dreams that we're looking forward to?

900
00:43:27,485 --> 00:43:32,245
Speaker 4: That cool. I don't mind doing things like this. I

901
00:43:32,325 --> 00:43:34,685
Speaker 4: don't mind if women wish to speak and talk about

902
00:43:35,405 --> 00:43:38,445
Speaker 4: how you cope with things like this. I'm a firm

903
00:43:38,525 --> 00:43:42,485
Speaker 4: believer that strength is an inward thing. I said, everybody

904
00:43:42,565 --> 00:43:44,005
Speaker 4: has it. It's there, you just have to tap and

905
00:43:44,085 --> 00:43:48,365
Speaker 4: find it, so you know it's doing this sort of thing.

906
00:43:48,565 --> 00:43:51,285
Speaker 4: I thought I would be quite shy and reserved and

907
00:43:51,365 --> 00:43:53,125
Speaker 4: inward with it and not be able to do it,

908
00:43:53,285 --> 00:43:56,965
Speaker 4: but it seems, you know, I'm doing quite fine. The

909
00:43:57,045 --> 00:43:59,805
Speaker 4: book for me was a very cathartic thing to do,

910
00:44:00,805 --> 00:44:05,325
Speaker 4: and I tapped into you know, I write journals most

911
00:44:05,365 --> 00:44:07,605
Speaker 4: of my life, so I think I tapped into that

912
00:44:07,685 --> 00:44:12,045
Speaker 4: ability to just write stuff and you know, with help

913
00:44:12,125 --> 00:44:15,165
Speaker 4: from editors and everything else that you know, the crew

914
00:44:15,205 --> 00:44:16,245
Speaker 4: that we did have to do that.

915
00:44:16,285 --> 00:44:18,245
Speaker 3: So to interrupt, you're not concerned that anyone's going to

916
00:44:18,285 --> 00:44:20,965
Speaker 3: look at these journals at some stage and misinterpret them.

917
00:44:21,205 --> 00:44:23,925
Speaker 4: I am, you know, so don't get me wrong, and

918
00:44:23,965 --> 00:44:28,645
Speaker 4: you never get me writing in another one. But writing

919
00:44:28,765 --> 00:44:31,405
Speaker 4: seems to be something I enjoy doing, and it's a

920
00:44:31,485 --> 00:44:33,725
Speaker 4: slop whether it's a flair or something I've got. Who

921
00:44:33,805 --> 00:44:37,005
Speaker 4: knows the future for me, you know, I might travel

922
00:44:37,045 --> 00:44:38,925
Speaker 4: to go down that path again and just see if

923
00:44:38,965 --> 00:44:41,685
Speaker 4: I could do something and keep writing in such a fashion.

924
00:44:42,045 --> 00:44:45,605
Speaker 4: And or yes, you're doing talks around the place and

925
00:44:45,925 --> 00:44:50,885
Speaker 4: encouraging women that I think My message is basically, whatever

926
00:44:50,965 --> 00:44:54,325
Speaker 4: you're going through, traumatic or not, if you've got a

927
00:44:54,405 --> 00:44:56,605
Speaker 4: group of friends that are helping to hold you up

928
00:44:56,805 --> 00:44:59,605
Speaker 4: and you've got the scaffolding around you, you survive and

929
00:44:59,725 --> 00:45:03,285
Speaker 4: you can come out the other side. And even for

930
00:45:03,365 --> 00:45:06,085
Speaker 4: those who don't have that, there are so many organizations

931
00:45:06,125 --> 00:45:08,845
Speaker 4: and that out there these days that can help you

932
00:45:09,045 --> 00:45:11,525
Speaker 4: through that sort of stuff. I think my message just

933
00:45:11,805 --> 00:45:14,605
Speaker 4: is there is life after and you just have to

934
00:45:14,645 --> 00:45:16,725
Speaker 4: make the decision that you want it. I said, So

935
00:45:16,885 --> 00:45:20,845
Speaker 4: that's my message. I'm pretty an ordinary girl. I don't

936
00:45:20,885 --> 00:45:24,285
Speaker 4: you know, I'm not planning on you know, people say,

937
00:45:24,925 --> 00:45:26,925
Speaker 4: how would you like to go bungee jumpy, skydiving and

938
00:45:27,045 --> 00:45:28,765
Speaker 4: doing all these things, and I'm shaking my head, going,

939
00:45:28,805 --> 00:45:30,245
Speaker 4: I need to spend too many years in prison to

940
00:45:30,285 --> 00:45:31,725
Speaker 4: go jumping out of a plane and kill myself.

941
00:45:31,765 --> 00:45:32,165
Speaker 5: It's just not.

942
00:45:34,245 --> 00:45:38,445
Speaker 1: I've got life left to live now, right, yeah, I said, So, you.

943
00:45:38,485 --> 00:45:41,445
Speaker 4: Know, I enjoy simpler things, you know, like walking the dog,

944
00:45:41,725 --> 00:45:43,125
Speaker 4: you know, or just sitting on the lounge with the

945
00:45:43,285 --> 00:45:46,085
Speaker 4: pattern is a glorious thing for me. Staring out a

946
00:45:46,125 --> 00:45:48,685
Speaker 4: window watching life go by my best thing ever. I'm

947
00:45:48,845 --> 00:45:51,125
Speaker 4: quite a people person watcher and I love to, you know,

948
00:45:51,285 --> 00:45:54,005
Speaker 4: do that sort of thing. It's simple things like walk, sunrise,

949
00:45:54,005 --> 00:45:56,125
Speaker 4: a sunset. So I'm still enjoying all of those things,

950
00:45:56,365 --> 00:45:59,285
Speaker 4: good food, enjoying a little bit too much unfortunately. Ah,

951
00:45:59,565 --> 00:46:02,365
Speaker 4: But you know that's sort of like, you know, it's

952
00:46:02,445 --> 00:46:05,285
Speaker 4: more simple for me. I enjoy the you know, the

953
00:46:05,365 --> 00:46:09,565
Speaker 4: simpler things in life. And I would be quite happy

954
00:46:09,645 --> 00:46:11,805
Speaker 4: to spend the next thirty years if I'm lucky to

955
00:46:11,925 --> 00:46:14,125
Speaker 4: do that, If I go off on the other pass

956
00:46:14,165 --> 00:46:16,125
Speaker 4: and I write, and I talk and I do these

957
00:46:16,165 --> 00:46:19,605
Speaker 4: sorts of things, podcasts and whatever. To me, they're an

958
00:46:19,605 --> 00:46:22,325
Speaker 4: added bonus, you know. And if I'm helping anybody along

959
00:46:22,365 --> 00:46:25,125
Speaker 4: the way, that's great too. Yeah, I don't mind doing that.

960
00:46:25,805 --> 00:46:28,045
Speaker 4: You know, we still got a whole you know, there

961
00:46:28,125 --> 00:46:30,085
Speaker 4: are other people that are going to tackle the whole

962
00:46:30,325 --> 00:46:33,605
Speaker 4: legal reform in an attempt to try to reform our

963
00:46:33,645 --> 00:46:36,405
Speaker 4: system a little, because it does, unfortunately need it. Everyone

964
00:46:36,445 --> 00:46:38,405
Speaker 4: has been in to do with my case believes that,

965
00:46:38,525 --> 00:46:42,325
Speaker 4: you know, a CCRC Criminal Case Review commissions needed, and

966
00:46:42,645 --> 00:46:45,125
Speaker 4: that that would be a fairer way to do things.

967
00:46:45,565 --> 00:46:47,485
Speaker 4: You know, I said, you know, I believe that, you know,

968
00:46:47,525 --> 00:46:49,605
Speaker 4: if there have been that sort of committee or a

969
00:46:49,645 --> 00:46:52,485
Speaker 4: commission available at the time when my stuff will hit

970
00:46:52,565 --> 00:46:54,765
Speaker 4: the fans, so to speak, I may not have ended

971
00:46:54,845 --> 00:46:56,325
Speaker 4: up in prison for as long as I was in there.

972
00:46:56,485 --> 00:46:59,045
Speaker 4: You know, it could have been looked at, reviewed, you know,

973
00:46:59,725 --> 00:47:04,725
Speaker 4: taken on board, and you know, but we just sort

974
00:47:04,765 --> 00:47:06,205
Speaker 4: of think, you know, there was an awful lot of

975
00:47:06,325 --> 00:47:09,085
Speaker 4: in my case particular, an awful lot of not listening

976
00:47:09,325 --> 00:47:12,325
Speaker 4: going on because the decision had been made, that the

977
00:47:12,445 --> 00:47:16,205
Speaker 4: path chosen, and we had so much trouble with the

978
00:47:16,365 --> 00:47:19,765
Speaker 4: same information once, you know, once you get denied appeals

979
00:47:19,805 --> 00:47:21,565
Speaker 4: and you get and you're on a trial and you

980
00:47:21,605 --> 00:47:24,445
Speaker 4: get found guilty, it's so hard to get the system

981
00:47:24,685 --> 00:47:27,405
Speaker 4: to look or hear or see anything else. And every

982
00:47:27,445 --> 00:47:29,525
Speaker 4: time you're in front of a judge, they're going off

983
00:47:29,565 --> 00:47:32,645
Speaker 4: the same information all the time, and it's very difficult

984
00:47:32,645 --> 00:47:35,285
Speaker 4: to get them to all sideways in any way to go.

985
00:47:35,485 --> 00:47:37,645
Speaker 4: By the by the time I'd gone to Bathurst, still

986
00:47:37,645 --> 00:47:39,165
Speaker 4: were looking at you know, I think it was nearly

987
00:47:39,245 --> 00:47:42,125
Speaker 4: eighteen old judges I sat in front of in twenty years.

988
00:47:42,525 --> 00:47:46,125
Speaker 4: But he was the first semi progressive one that went okay,

989
00:47:46,765 --> 00:47:48,805
Speaker 4: there could be something here to see what's going on,

990
00:47:49,365 --> 00:47:52,085
Speaker 4: you know, I said. So, it's just unfortunate it took

991
00:47:52,165 --> 00:47:55,765
Speaker 4: twenty years to get there. Perform needs doing. I can't

992
00:47:55,845 --> 00:47:58,565
Speaker 4: see myself being a big forefront when it comes to

993
00:47:58,685 --> 00:48:01,725
Speaker 4: the reform side. I've always said I'm happy to be

994
00:48:01,885 --> 00:48:04,645
Speaker 4: rolled out if my face case and me speaking helps

995
00:48:04,685 --> 00:48:07,125
Speaker 4: in that manner, But I'm not likely to be up

996
00:48:07,165 --> 00:48:10,565
Speaker 4: a parliment steps with the placard, you know, and knocking

997
00:48:10,645 --> 00:48:13,325
Speaker 4: on doors and saying you need to change something, because

998
00:48:13,405 --> 00:48:17,085
Speaker 4: I think that it needs to come from inside the system.

999
00:48:17,325 --> 00:48:19,605
Speaker 4: The system needs to change, so that's where it needs

1000
00:48:19,605 --> 00:48:20,045
Speaker 4: to come from.

1001
00:48:21,085 --> 00:48:24,725
Speaker 3: Just finally, Kathleen, I want to understand from you how

1002
00:48:24,885 --> 00:48:29,285
Speaker 3: you how you feel that place in your heart of mum.

1003
00:48:30,405 --> 00:48:33,885
Speaker 3: You know, with Caleb making your mom and then you

1004
00:48:33,925 --> 00:48:36,845
Speaker 3: know Patrick and Sarah and Laura all adding to that,

1005
00:48:37,725 --> 00:48:40,725
Speaker 3: and then your ability to become a mum again is

1006
00:48:40,805 --> 00:48:43,525
Speaker 3: cut off completely, you have that option is taken away

1007
00:48:43,525 --> 00:48:46,485
Speaker 3: from you as your center prison. How do you feel

1008
00:48:46,565 --> 00:48:49,325
Speaker 3: that place in your heart because you are a mother?

1009
00:48:50,445 --> 00:48:55,005
Speaker 1: How do you then express that now that you're a

1010
00:48:55,245 --> 00:48:56,085
Speaker 1: free woman again?

1011
00:48:56,325 --> 00:49:01,965
Speaker 4: I I I will always say I'm mom. I simply

1012
00:49:02,005 --> 00:49:04,605
Speaker 4: say I'm a childless mum, you know sort of things.

1013
00:49:04,685 --> 00:49:07,005
Speaker 4: So as cruel as that sounds, that is what I am.

1014
00:49:07,765 --> 00:49:11,485
Speaker 4: I can still walk down the street and spot especially

1015
00:49:11,485 --> 00:49:15,205
Speaker 4: little toddlers will make me smile knowing and especially when

1016
00:49:15,205 --> 00:49:17,165
Speaker 4: they're just you know, there was a little kid down

1017
00:49:17,205 --> 00:49:20,005
Speaker 4: the street not long aot the shopping center I was at,

1018
00:49:20,565 --> 00:49:22,485
Speaker 4: had run away a bit from his parents. His parents

1019
00:49:22,525 --> 00:49:24,925
Speaker 4: didn't even really realize because they were busy doing something.

1020
00:49:25,605 --> 00:49:28,005
Speaker 4: He's kicking things around, he's doing whatever he wanted to.

1021
00:49:28,165 --> 00:49:30,285
Speaker 4: And I just simply smiled, looked at you and said,

1022
00:49:31,045 --> 00:49:33,285
Speaker 4: may be that age again, when you just don't care.

1023
00:49:33,485 --> 00:49:36,445
Speaker 4: You're just doing your own thing, you know. And then parents,

1024
00:49:36,485 --> 00:49:38,245
Speaker 4: of course went, wait, you know, so of things. So

1025
00:49:38,965 --> 00:49:43,605
Speaker 4: sometimes you know, I've been to dinners and things with friends,

1026
00:49:43,725 --> 00:49:45,605
Speaker 4: and some of them I've thought I had had little

1027
00:49:45,645 --> 00:49:49,205
Speaker 4: ones there, grandchildren. Of course, at the time and the night,

1028
00:49:49,285 --> 00:49:51,685
Speaker 4: I'm fine with it and I can relate and do whatever,

1029
00:49:52,085 --> 00:49:54,805
Speaker 4: but I do suffer the next day with the depression here,

1030
00:49:55,045 --> 00:49:59,565
Speaker 4: I said. So it's a response that's just automatic. I

1031
00:49:59,685 --> 00:50:03,005
Speaker 4: tend to want to not really go out or not

1032
00:50:03,125 --> 00:50:06,005
Speaker 4: see anyone, and I just need that time to go.

1033
00:50:07,245 --> 00:50:09,645
Speaker 4: You know. As pleasant as that was that her, you know,

1034
00:50:09,725 --> 00:50:13,125
Speaker 4: I said, so, I can still have quite painful moments

1035
00:50:13,165 --> 00:50:17,365
Speaker 4: with it all. And you know, Mother's Day I'm not

1036
00:50:17,445 --> 00:50:19,805
Speaker 4: a fan of because I don't get to celebrate it

1037
00:50:19,925 --> 00:50:22,965
Speaker 4: like everybody else, so I tend to steer clear of it,

1038
00:50:23,285 --> 00:50:25,965
Speaker 4: you know, I said. So there's just little things like that,

1039
00:50:26,285 --> 00:50:28,725
Speaker 4: you know, I said, So, I always say I'm a mom,

1040
00:50:29,045 --> 00:50:31,005
Speaker 4: you know, and everyone else will say, you know, you're

1041
00:50:31,005 --> 00:50:33,565
Speaker 4: a mum Catholic, that's all there is to it. I said, yes,

1042
00:50:33,645 --> 00:50:36,845
Speaker 4: but unfortunately I'm in the relegated unfortunate club of being.

1043
00:50:36,765 --> 00:50:38,965
Speaker 5: A child loss mom. I said, so.

1044
00:50:40,525 --> 00:50:43,325
Speaker 4: There's it's a pain there that will be there forever.

1045
00:50:43,485 --> 00:50:46,005
Speaker 4: It's never going to go away. People say time heels.

1046
00:50:46,085 --> 00:50:48,405
Speaker 4: I said, I don't believe that. I think time lessons

1047
00:50:48,605 --> 00:50:52,565
Speaker 4: not necessarily heels, you know, because you know Caleb would

1048
00:50:52,565 --> 00:50:55,765
Speaker 4: be you know, gosh, nearly thirty six. You know, he said,

1049
00:50:55,765 --> 00:50:57,525
Speaker 4: if you'd been around it, we'd be about thirty six now,

1050
00:50:57,605 --> 00:50:59,325
Speaker 4: you know, I said, So all of my children were

1051
00:50:59,365 --> 00:51:01,405
Speaker 4: being grown adults, moved on, and I possibly could have

1052
00:51:01,445 --> 00:51:03,245
Speaker 4: been a grandmother by now, you know, I said, so

1053
00:51:03,805 --> 00:51:05,805
Speaker 4: little things like that, you know, I sort of go

1054
00:51:06,405 --> 00:51:09,285
Speaker 4: that that's a bit painful. But I used to live

1055
00:51:09,485 --> 00:51:12,285
Speaker 4: curiously through everybody else's children, especially when I was inside.

1056
00:51:13,445 --> 00:51:16,885
Speaker 4: You know, Tracy's son, Presley, who adore He grew up

1057
00:51:16,925 --> 00:51:19,485
Speaker 4: in front of me, but I never actually met him

1058
00:51:19,965 --> 00:51:22,125
Speaker 4: until I was released that day, you know, I said, So,

1059
00:51:22,405 --> 00:51:24,485
Speaker 4: you know, and my other friend's children too, you know,

1060
00:51:24,605 --> 00:51:27,405
Speaker 4: I heard about them, heard about all their exploits, but

1061
00:51:28,365 --> 00:51:31,485
Speaker 4: it's very different. You know, people probably don't know this,

1062
00:51:31,605 --> 00:51:34,325
Speaker 4: but I've not had a child in my arms since

1063
00:51:35,845 --> 00:51:37,885
Speaker 4: I think the first day I do, when someone hands

1064
00:51:37,925 --> 00:51:40,245
Speaker 4: me a baby says can you just watch this, I'll

1065
00:51:40,285 --> 00:51:46,125
Speaker 4: be like, I'm not sure how that will go. Big.

1066
00:51:46,205 --> 00:51:48,325
Speaker 1: Thank you to Kathleen for speaking with us today.

1067
00:51:48,445 --> 00:51:51,005
Speaker 3: You can find her book with Tracy Chapman Inside Out

1068
00:51:51,085 --> 00:51:53,005
Speaker 3: at the link in our show notes. If you want

1069
00:51:53,045 --> 00:51:55,205
Speaker 3: to see images from this story, head to our Instagram

1070
00:51:55,285 --> 00:51:58,285
Speaker 3: page at True Crime Conversations, give us a follow and

1071
00:51:58,405 --> 00:51:59,405
Speaker 3: have a look at our case.

1072
00:51:59,205 --> 00:52:00,485
Speaker 1: Explainers as well while you're there.

1073
00:52:01,045 --> 00:52:03,565
Speaker 3: If you enjoyed this episode, please review our show on

1074
00:52:03,605 --> 00:52:06,965
Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts or leave a comment on Spotify. True Crime

1075
00:52:07,045 --> 00:52:10,005
Speaker 3: Conversations is hosted by me Claire Murphy and produced by

1076
00:52:10,085 --> 00:52:13,525
Speaker 3: Tarlie Blackman, with audio designed by Jacob Brown. Thanks so

1077
00:52:13,685 --> 00:52:15,845
Speaker 3: much for listening. I'll be back next week with another

1078
00:52:16,005 --> 00:52:17,005
Speaker 3: True Crime Conversation