1 00:00:10,327 --> 00:00:13,047 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 2 00:00:13,727 --> 00:00:16,767 Speaker 2: Mamma mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 3 00:00:16,807 --> 00:00:23,767 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to 4 00:00:23,847 --> 00:00:26,647 Speaker 2: Mamma Mia Out Loud. What women are actually talking about 5 00:00:26,687 --> 00:00:30,767 Speaker 2: on Monday, the seventeenth of June. I am Holly Wainwright, I'm. 6 00:00:30,527 --> 00:00:34,087 Speaker 3: Mea Friedman and I'm Jemma Bath filling in for Jesse Stevens. 7 00:00:34,127 --> 00:00:35,927 Speaker 3: I host another podcast from Mamma. 8 00:00:35,727 --> 00:00:40,327 Speaker 1: Mia called True Crab Conversations. It's less murders on this show. Yes, good, 9 00:00:40,367 --> 00:00:40,967 Speaker 1: that's a good thing. 10 00:00:43,207 --> 00:00:47,567 Speaker 2: And on the show today a Princess's brave face, the 11 00:00:47,687 --> 00:00:51,367 Speaker 2: very planned optics of Kate's return to work. And it's 12 00:00:51,367 --> 00:00:53,607 Speaker 2: a fact it's never been harder to be the thirty 13 00:00:53,647 --> 00:00:57,207 Speaker 2: something in Australia. But also millennials are about to get really, 14 00:00:57,407 --> 00:01:01,207 Speaker 2: really rich. And what's different about the sex scenes you 15 00:01:01,247 --> 00:01:04,087 Speaker 2: spent the weekend watching? But first, Jemma Bath. 16 00:01:04,727 --> 00:01:07,007 Speaker 3: In case you missed it, a name that might be 17 00:01:07,087 --> 00:01:10,847 Speaker 3: familiar to you, Bruce Werman. He's expected to appear in 18 00:01:10,847 --> 00:01:14,887 Speaker 3: a Toomber court today for a committal hearing over rape charges. 19 00:01:15,567 --> 00:01:18,407 Speaker 3: He's been charged with two counts of rape dating back 20 00:01:18,487 --> 00:01:21,687 Speaker 3: to October twenty twenty one. Now we don't know the 21 00:01:21,687 --> 00:01:24,527 Speaker 3: identity of his accuser, but we know that she is 22 00:01:24,567 --> 00:01:27,367 Speaker 3: twenty nine and she allegedly met Lehman at a strip 23 00:01:27,407 --> 00:01:29,567 Speaker 3: club in his hometown of Toowoomba. 24 00:01:29,847 --> 00:01:31,687 Speaker 1: She says he gave her a. 25 00:01:31,727 --> 00:01:36,647 Speaker 3: False name, Bryce, pretty close to Bruce, and she alleges 26 00:01:36,807 --> 00:01:38,767 Speaker 3: that they left the club and went to a friend's 27 00:01:38,767 --> 00:01:42,167 Speaker 3: house and got into bed together. She told him they 28 00:01:42,167 --> 00:01:44,807 Speaker 3: wouldn't be having sex without a condom. They kissed and 29 00:01:44,847 --> 00:01:48,167 Speaker 3: she fell asleep. She claims when she woke up, he 30 00:01:48,287 --> 00:01:50,607 Speaker 3: was having sex with her, and says the next day 31 00:01:50,647 --> 00:01:53,687 Speaker 3: he took her to get a morning after pill. Originally, 32 00:01:53,727 --> 00:01:56,047 Speaker 3: when this story broke, Lehman was only referred to as 33 00:01:56,047 --> 00:01:59,847 Speaker 3: a high profile man in media reports. That Queensland laws 34 00:01:59,927 --> 00:02:02,287 Speaker 3: changed in October last year which allowed. 35 00:02:02,087 --> 00:02:03,047 Speaker 1: Us to name him. 36 00:02:03,567 --> 00:02:05,407 Speaker 3: This is the first time he's appeared in court in 37 00:02:05,447 --> 00:02:08,887 Speaker 3: person for this matter, and basically this hearing will decide 38 00:02:08,967 --> 00:02:11,407 Speaker 3: whether the chargers will be taken to trial. 39 00:02:11,647 --> 00:02:14,767 Speaker 2: That sounds you can hear is me Mia and Jebba 40 00:02:14,767 --> 00:02:16,887 Speaker 2: biding our tongues just a little bit. And if you're 41 00:02:16,927 --> 00:02:18,807 Speaker 2: wondering if there should have been any more details in 42 00:02:18,847 --> 00:02:27,247 Speaker 2: that segment. There are legal reasons why there aren't in 43 00:02:27,367 --> 00:02:31,487 Speaker 2: last week's chaotic Royal rundown. I told you, gentle listeners, 44 00:02:31,727 --> 00:02:35,447 Speaker 2: as out Loud's Fancy Society correspondent as I am, that 45 00:02:35,647 --> 00:02:38,807 Speaker 2: Kate watch was back. It had been three months since 46 00:02:38,887 --> 00:02:42,127 Speaker 2: those edited pictures of the Princess of Wales had made 47 00:02:42,207 --> 00:02:45,807 Speaker 2: photo experts of the entire world, and we were getting restless. 48 00:02:46,207 --> 00:02:48,967 Speaker 2: How is she going as she goes through her cancer treatment. 49 00:02:49,927 --> 00:02:52,967 Speaker 2: Kate listened clearly to MEA's gentle urging for an update 50 00:02:53,007 --> 00:02:56,247 Speaker 2: on her health, and on Friday night, Our Time, the 51 00:02:56,247 --> 00:02:59,407 Speaker 2: Prince and Princess of Wales's official Instagram account released an 52 00:02:59,407 --> 00:03:02,527 Speaker 2: image of Kate forest bathing, which is walking in the. 53 00:03:02,447 --> 00:03:04,087 Speaker 1: Woods with some news. 54 00:03:04,527 --> 00:03:07,727 Speaker 2: She said, I am making good progress, but as anyone 55 00:03:07,767 --> 00:03:10,167 Speaker 2: going through chemotherapy will know, there are good days and 56 00:03:10,207 --> 00:03:13,447 Speaker 2: bad days. On those bad days, you feel weak, tired 57 00:03:13,527 --> 00:03:15,767 Speaker 2: and you have to give into your body resting. But 58 00:03:15,887 --> 00:03:18,167 Speaker 2: on the good days, when you feel stronger, you want 59 00:03:18,207 --> 00:03:20,447 Speaker 2: to make the most of feeling well. My treatment is 60 00:03:20,447 --> 00:03:22,847 Speaker 2: ongoing and will be for a few more months. On 61 00:03:22,887 --> 00:03:24,767 Speaker 2: the days I feel well enough, it's a joy to 62 00:03:24,847 --> 00:03:27,767 Speaker 2: engage with school life spend personal time on the things 63 00:03:27,767 --> 00:03:30,687 Speaker 2: that give me energy and positivity, as well as starting 64 00:03:30,687 --> 00:03:33,447 Speaker 2: to do a little work from home. I'm looking forward 65 00:03:33,527 --> 00:03:36,647 Speaker 2: to attending the King's Birthday parade this weekend with my family, 66 00:03:36,967 --> 00:03:39,407 Speaker 2: and I hope to join a few public engagements over 67 00:03:39,447 --> 00:03:42,167 Speaker 2: the summer, but equally knowing I'm not out of the 68 00:03:42,167 --> 00:03:47,167 Speaker 2: woods yet. Catherine was coming back to work, and she 69 00:03:47,287 --> 00:03:50,207 Speaker 2: did less than twenty four hours later in her first 70 00:03:50,207 --> 00:03:53,047 Speaker 2: official appearance, that is an appearance not in a paparazzi 71 00:03:53,047 --> 00:03:57,207 Speaker 2: photo taken with a long lens since Christmas. The next day, 72 00:03:57,247 --> 00:03:59,487 Speaker 2: you would have had to be entirely out of Wi 73 00:03:59,527 --> 00:04:01,807 Speaker 2: Fi range to have missed the photos of her attending 74 00:04:01,887 --> 00:04:04,127 Speaker 2: the Trooping of the Color, which is the King's birthday, 75 00:04:04,207 --> 00:04:05,567 Speaker 2: big deal in England. 76 00:04:05,607 --> 00:04:06,407 Speaker 1: It's like a big. 77 00:04:06,247 --> 00:04:09,607 Speaker 2: Military parade, and Prince William was in the parade. He 78 00:04:09,647 --> 00:04:11,727 Speaker 2: was on a horse in one of those big furry hats. 79 00:04:11,727 --> 00:04:14,567 Speaker 2: Don't ask me what all that means. Kate looked immaculate, 80 00:04:14,807 --> 00:04:17,887 Speaker 2: healthy and happy, riding in a carriage with her kids 81 00:04:17,927 --> 00:04:20,447 Speaker 2: and doing the traditional balcony appearance where she was given 82 00:04:20,527 --> 00:04:24,047 Speaker 2: prime position next to the King. It would have been knackering, 83 00:04:24,327 --> 00:04:28,327 Speaker 2: no question, but Kate's appearance was roundly received as a 84 00:04:28,367 --> 00:04:32,127 Speaker 2: reassuring and joyous display that one of the most famous 85 00:04:32,127 --> 00:04:35,647 Speaker 2: women in the world is okay. The thing is, of course, 86 00:04:35,647 --> 00:04:38,207 Speaker 2: she's not quite okay, as she says so herself, some 87 00:04:38,407 --> 00:04:42,527 Speaker 2: days she's shit, although she didn't put it quite like that. Mia, 88 00:04:42,647 --> 00:04:44,687 Speaker 2: did you love Kate's brave face. 89 00:04:45,407 --> 00:04:49,647 Speaker 4: I'm so overjoyed, first of all, to see her face. 90 00:04:49,887 --> 00:04:51,887 Speaker 4: And I know that it sounded silly when I was 91 00:04:51,927 --> 00:04:55,207 Speaker 4: saying last week, I'm just on an update. The parasocial 92 00:04:55,287 --> 00:04:58,167 Speaker 4: relationship we have with people in the public eye who 93 00:04:58,207 --> 00:05:01,727 Speaker 4: we feel we know is a real thing. I mean, 94 00:05:01,767 --> 00:05:05,167 Speaker 4: the relationships not real, but the fact that we care 95 00:05:05,207 --> 00:05:08,087 Speaker 4: for them and we want them to be okay. I 96 00:05:08,087 --> 00:05:11,327 Speaker 4: mean not everybody does, but some of us do. I 97 00:05:11,567 --> 00:05:14,767 Speaker 4: scrutinized her more than I've ever scrutinized anyone in a 98 00:05:14,767 --> 00:05:19,167 Speaker 4: public appearance, and I was very observant of myself doing that. 99 00:05:19,767 --> 00:05:23,087 Speaker 4: I thought the fact that she wore a very fitted 100 00:05:23,407 --> 00:05:27,687 Speaker 4: white dress or white suit was very interesting, and what 101 00:05:27,767 --> 00:05:30,367 Speaker 4: I realized is HARKing back to something that I read 102 00:05:30,527 --> 00:05:33,407 Speaker 4: a few months ago. When she disappeared. That first photo 103 00:05:33,487 --> 00:05:36,367 Speaker 4: came out and turned out to be airbrushed, and there's 104 00:05:36,407 --> 00:05:39,727 Speaker 4: this sense of when the only access you have to 105 00:05:39,847 --> 00:05:42,447 Speaker 4: someone is looking at them, which is the case pretty 106 00:05:42,487 --> 00:05:44,567 Speaker 4: much for the royal family. Right, we don't know really 107 00:05:44,567 --> 00:05:47,247 Speaker 4: anything about them. We just know essentially what they look 108 00:05:47,367 --> 00:05:50,327 Speaker 4: like and what they choose to tell us. So we 109 00:05:50,487 --> 00:05:52,967 Speaker 4: have to draw a lot of conclusions from what they wear, 110 00:05:53,687 --> 00:05:56,807 Speaker 4: what their body looks like, what their facial expressions are, 111 00:05:56,847 --> 00:05:59,967 Speaker 4: and now of course lip readers. And there's something about 112 00:05:59,967 --> 00:06:03,047 Speaker 4: being a princess more than anything else, that their value 113 00:06:03,487 --> 00:06:09,647 Speaker 4: is in their physicality. It's in literally showing up bodily 114 00:06:10,487 --> 00:06:17,327 Speaker 4: for events, for official things, bringing attention to charities, And 115 00:06:17,367 --> 00:06:21,047 Speaker 4: so the burden of that, even when you don't have cancer, 116 00:06:21,047 --> 00:06:23,767 Speaker 4: in the whole world is not particularly looking at you 117 00:06:24,807 --> 00:06:28,527 Speaker 4: must be unimaginable. And all I could think about was 118 00:06:28,567 --> 00:06:30,927 Speaker 4: the pressure that she must have been under. And maybe 119 00:06:30,967 --> 00:06:32,607 Speaker 4: she was like, this is her job, So maybe she 120 00:06:32,687 --> 00:06:34,207 Speaker 4: was genuinely over joyed to be out of the house. 121 00:06:34,247 --> 00:06:36,247 Speaker 4: We've all been locked down with illness and we know 122 00:06:36,287 --> 00:06:39,087 Speaker 4: what that feels like. But I felt for all the 123 00:06:39,127 --> 00:06:43,407 Speaker 4: cancer sufferers, survivors, people who were battling it, who looked 124 00:06:43,407 --> 00:06:45,607 Speaker 4: at it and went ah. 125 00:06:45,527 --> 00:06:49,327 Speaker 3: Right, I felt Similarly, I have quite a few people 126 00:06:49,647 --> 00:06:52,687 Speaker 3: in my family and in my close circle that are 127 00:06:52,767 --> 00:06:55,127 Speaker 3: have just gotten through cancer treatment or are currently going 128 00:06:55,167 --> 00:06:58,007 Speaker 3: through it. And when I saw her, of course I 129 00:06:58,047 --> 00:07:01,687 Speaker 3: was happy for her the individual, but I felt a 130 00:07:01,687 --> 00:07:07,047 Speaker 3: bit sad for my family members at home, thinking I 131 00:07:07,087 --> 00:07:11,007 Speaker 3: don't look anything like that in fact, my body, my face, 132 00:07:11,447 --> 00:07:14,407 Speaker 3: my hair. I compare it to the beauty standards conversation 133 00:07:14,647 --> 00:07:19,047 Speaker 3: where we look at super skinny, beautiful women and we 134 00:07:19,127 --> 00:07:22,927 Speaker 3: compare ourselves to that and the expectations we put on that. 135 00:07:23,567 --> 00:07:27,047 Speaker 3: In the same sense, here cancer patients looking at her, 136 00:07:27,087 --> 00:07:30,047 Speaker 3: going yeah, well, if I don't look like that, am 137 00:07:30,087 --> 00:07:31,687 Speaker 3: I doing something wrong? 138 00:07:31,887 --> 00:07:32,767 Speaker 1: Letting the side down? 139 00:07:32,847 --> 00:07:35,367 Speaker 2: Yeah, I hear that, and I have read it. There 140 00:07:35,407 --> 00:07:38,087 Speaker 2: was a comment in out loud as from somebody who 141 00:07:38,287 --> 00:07:40,967 Speaker 2: clearly felt similarly and not very understandably, who said, did 142 00:07:41,047 --> 00:07:43,687 Speaker 2: she get a special type of no hair loss, no grayskin, 143 00:07:43,847 --> 00:07:46,767 Speaker 2: no mouth soors chemo. Honestly, I wish her well, of 144 00:07:46,767 --> 00:07:48,327 Speaker 2: course she's a mom and a human being. But for 145 00:07:48,367 --> 00:07:51,087 Speaker 2: the cancer patients who lose every hair on their body 146 00:07:51,127 --> 00:07:53,967 Speaker 2: and think they'll never look human again, it seems demoralizing, 147 00:07:54,047 --> 00:07:57,887 Speaker 2: not inspiring, And I thought that was really interesting and 148 00:07:57,967 --> 00:08:00,247 Speaker 2: of course entirely valid. But what a lot of people 149 00:08:00,247 --> 00:08:04,367 Speaker 2: have pointed out is that chemotherapy is not one experience 150 00:08:04,447 --> 00:08:08,047 Speaker 2: for everybody, and there are plenty of ordinary in inverted 151 00:08:08,087 --> 00:08:11,407 Speaker 2: commas have to work through chemo. A lot of women do, 152 00:08:11,687 --> 00:08:14,047 Speaker 2: un men, obviously, but we're talking about women who have 153 00:08:14,167 --> 00:08:16,127 Speaker 2: to put on a brave face, as it were, not 154 00:08:16,207 --> 00:08:19,167 Speaker 2: to the Kate level, but to keep going, keep moving, 155 00:08:19,367 --> 00:08:21,647 Speaker 2: keep putting their foot forward. And I don't know, I 156 00:08:21,687 --> 00:08:25,127 Speaker 2: think I agree that in some ways it's like, oh, 157 00:08:25,167 --> 00:08:28,007 Speaker 2: but she looks fine, but I think she had no choice. 158 00:08:28,087 --> 00:08:30,727 Speaker 2: You've got to remember that to get her out of 159 00:08:30,727 --> 00:08:33,407 Speaker 2: the house that day. Whatever Kate looks like on an 160 00:08:33,487 --> 00:08:36,167 Speaker 2: ordinary Tuesday morning when she's finding it hard to get 161 00:08:36,207 --> 00:08:38,287 Speaker 2: out of bed, to get her out of that house 162 00:08:38,287 --> 00:08:41,127 Speaker 2: that day, she has a team. She has literally a team, 163 00:08:41,527 --> 00:08:44,087 Speaker 2: and their number one job would have been make Kate 164 00:08:44,167 --> 00:08:48,567 Speaker 2: look like Kate always looks, to reassure everybody that she 165 00:08:48,927 --> 00:08:50,727 Speaker 2: is fine. That shit holds. 166 00:08:51,127 --> 00:08:54,847 Speaker 4: That's what drives me crazy is this insistence that women, 167 00:08:54,887 --> 00:08:57,167 Speaker 4: no matter what we're going through, we've just had a baby, 168 00:08:57,327 --> 00:09:00,687 Speaker 4: we're pregnant, we're old, we're getting a hip replacement we're 169 00:09:00,807 --> 00:09:05,047 Speaker 4: undergoing chemo. We must look perfect, we must look the same, 170 00:09:05,407 --> 00:09:09,087 Speaker 4: We must be unchanged physically by any experience that happens 171 00:09:09,087 --> 00:09:09,167 Speaker 4: to you. 172 00:09:09,687 --> 00:09:12,247 Speaker 2: I don't think that's necessarily true of this, because I 173 00:09:12,287 --> 00:09:15,847 Speaker 2: think we really applaud people who publicly come out and 174 00:09:15,927 --> 00:09:19,447 Speaker 2: show their shaved heads or their masectomy scars. 175 00:09:19,007 --> 00:09:19,527 Speaker 1: Like we do. 176 00:09:19,567 --> 00:09:22,967 Speaker 2: We really applaud that because it reflects reality. But we're 177 00:09:22,967 --> 00:09:25,287 Speaker 2: not looking at the Royal family for reality. What this 178 00:09:25,407 --> 00:09:30,167 Speaker 2: whole very very stage managed return to work. I actually 179 00:09:30,207 --> 00:09:32,687 Speaker 2: think they've handled it brilliantly. I think that their team 180 00:09:32,727 --> 00:09:36,087 Speaker 2: has worked out all the messes that they made earlier 181 00:09:36,127 --> 00:09:39,007 Speaker 2: in the year when they were with the airbrush pictures, 182 00:09:39,047 --> 00:09:41,007 Speaker 2: and to give them benefit of the doubt, they're in 183 00:09:41,087 --> 00:09:44,847 Speaker 2: uncharted waters there. But this has been handled brilliantly, with 184 00:09:44,887 --> 00:09:47,927 Speaker 2: the announcement from Kate very quickly before it happened, so 185 00:09:47,967 --> 00:09:50,087 Speaker 2: there's not too much speculation to be able to build up. 186 00:09:50,447 --> 00:09:53,287 Speaker 2: But literally, her team would have been their brief would 187 00:09:53,287 --> 00:09:56,767 Speaker 2: have been, she needs to look perfect, and with that 188 00:09:56,887 --> 00:09:59,727 Speaker 2: amount of effort around you and all the hair pieces 189 00:09:59,727 --> 00:10:01,767 Speaker 2: in the world and all the makeup teams and the 190 00:10:01,807 --> 00:10:04,047 Speaker 2: cat anybody can look like. 191 00:10:04,007 --> 00:10:05,967 Speaker 1: That for a day. Can I clarify. 192 00:10:06,087 --> 00:10:09,887 Speaker 4: Also, none of what I'm saying is a criticism, it's observation, 193 00:10:10,487 --> 00:10:12,647 Speaker 4: and I think those two things it's really important to 194 00:10:12,647 --> 00:10:15,967 Speaker 4: make that distinction because it's like, she owes us nothing 195 00:10:16,247 --> 00:10:18,247 Speaker 4: in terms of could she have come out in a 196 00:10:18,247 --> 00:10:20,887 Speaker 4: headscarf and would she have done that, would she have 197 00:10:20,927 --> 00:10:23,407 Speaker 4: appeared in public if in fact she never had hair. 198 00:10:23,727 --> 00:10:26,367 Speaker 4: That is completely up to her to decide, and every 199 00:10:26,407 --> 00:10:29,127 Speaker 4: person has to make their own decisions. But I was 200 00:10:29,527 --> 00:10:33,807 Speaker 4: interested in this collective relief that you could feel that 201 00:10:33,967 --> 00:10:38,687 Speaker 4: Kate looks exactly the same and is completely unchanged. And 202 00:10:38,727 --> 00:10:41,407 Speaker 4: that was like reassuring for the masses, I guess on 203 00:10:41,447 --> 00:10:45,207 Speaker 4: some level, but frustrating from a beauty standards point of 204 00:10:45,287 --> 00:10:47,367 Speaker 4: view that we just never get a fucking break. But 205 00:10:47,447 --> 00:10:49,687 Speaker 4: that's why two truths can live in the same world. 206 00:10:50,007 --> 00:10:51,967 Speaker 4: We can be happy for Kate, but we can be 207 00:10:52,087 --> 00:10:54,607 Speaker 4: sad for the people that looked at her on the 208 00:10:54,647 --> 00:10:55,727 Speaker 4: weekend and struggled. 209 00:10:55,807 --> 00:10:58,527 Speaker 2: I don't think that's about beauty standards though. I don't 210 00:10:58,527 --> 00:11:00,647 Speaker 2: think it's about beauty standards. I think this is very 211 00:11:00,687 --> 00:11:04,327 Speaker 2: much about royals and about that very like at all times, 212 00:11:04,367 --> 00:11:07,007 Speaker 2: appearance is what matter. When you're royals, as you already 213 00:11:07,007 --> 00:11:09,487 Speaker 2: said me, or it's literally their job and they don't 214 00:11:09,487 --> 00:11:11,767 Speaker 2: want everybody to freak out. As we know, Royal family 215 00:11:11,807 --> 00:11:14,127 Speaker 2: are on sort of rocky ground at the moment on 216 00:11:14,247 --> 00:11:16,727 Speaker 2: all kinds of fronts, from the fact that they've lost 217 00:11:17,007 --> 00:11:18,967 Speaker 2: two very prominent members to the fact that the King 218 00:11:19,047 --> 00:11:22,087 Speaker 2: is unwell to the fact that the whole institution is 219 00:11:22,127 --> 00:11:24,967 Speaker 2: on the nose. I don't think that we should be 220 00:11:25,047 --> 00:11:28,047 Speaker 2: looking at this as a straight up beauty standard story. 221 00:11:28,087 --> 00:11:30,527 Speaker 2: This is very much about the image that they had 222 00:11:30,567 --> 00:11:33,527 Speaker 2: to project. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that 223 00:11:33,607 --> 00:11:36,407 Speaker 2: down the line we might get a photo release of 224 00:11:36,447 --> 00:11:39,567 Speaker 2: a very different version of Kate that's also very stage managed. 225 00:11:39,607 --> 00:11:41,447 Speaker 2: But the idea that she would go out on the 226 00:11:41,527 --> 00:11:45,527 Speaker 2: King's birthday looking anything other than how she looked is 227 00:11:45,607 --> 00:11:47,687 Speaker 2: kind of unimaginable in royal world. 228 00:11:47,607 --> 00:11:50,447 Speaker 4: It is, but that's what's depressing to me that if 229 00:11:50,447 --> 00:11:52,807 Speaker 4: she doesn't meet that beauty standard, and imagine how this 230 00:11:52,927 --> 00:11:55,447 Speaker 4: must feel for her, right she doesn't meet this beauty standard. 231 00:11:55,847 --> 00:12:03,327 Speaker 4: Best we stay indoors. 232 00:12:04,007 --> 00:12:04,887 Speaker 3: We're millennials. 233 00:12:04,967 --> 00:12:07,287 Speaker 1: We work hard and have nothing to show for it. 234 00:12:07,607 --> 00:12:09,847 Speaker 2: We're millennials, are dogs, have more. 235 00:12:09,687 --> 00:12:12,247 Speaker 4: Followers than you on Instagram from millennials. 236 00:12:12,327 --> 00:12:14,247 Speaker 1: We google it sixty times a day. 237 00:12:14,527 --> 00:12:17,647 Speaker 3: There's good and bad news for millennials this week. The 238 00:12:17,647 --> 00:12:21,127 Speaker 3: good news is we're potentially about to be really, really 239 00:12:21,367 --> 00:12:25,527 Speaker 3: rich over the next twenty years. Millennials are poised to 240 00:12:25,567 --> 00:12:29,567 Speaker 3: inherit ninety trillion dollars worth of assets and become the 241 00:12:29,727 --> 00:12:32,727 Speaker 3: richest generation in history according to the Wealth Report. 242 00:12:33,647 --> 00:12:35,727 Speaker 1: But it's by a few houses with that amount of money. 243 00:12:35,767 --> 00:12:39,367 Speaker 3: Holy but but but this will only be the case 244 00:12:39,407 --> 00:12:42,887 Speaker 3: for those who already come from affluent families, which could 245 00:12:42,887 --> 00:12:47,407 Speaker 3: potentially deepen wealth inequality further. The thing is, this is 246 00:12:47,447 --> 00:12:49,727 Speaker 3: quite about the bad news because that don't sound great. 247 00:12:49,767 --> 00:12:52,407 Speaker 3: It's coming, it's coming. There's more bad news because the 248 00:12:52,447 --> 00:12:54,327 Speaker 3: thing is this is quite a few years off for 249 00:12:54,407 --> 00:12:55,247 Speaker 3: most millennials. 250 00:12:55,367 --> 00:12:57,327 Speaker 1: People are living longer and longer, which is great. 251 00:12:57,647 --> 00:12:59,967 Speaker 3: I as a millennial myself, don't even want to think 252 00:12:59,967 --> 00:13:03,287 Speaker 3: about my parents not being here. But the bad news. 253 00:13:03,407 --> 00:13:06,447 Speaker 3: Here's the bad news is that there's never been a 254 00:13:06,487 --> 00:13:10,207 Speaker 3: worse time in Australian history to be thirty year old. 255 00:13:10,447 --> 00:13:12,247 Speaker 4: Well, you don't want to hurry your parents along because 256 00:13:12,247 --> 00:13:14,447 Speaker 4: that's a bit rude, but you would like their money. 257 00:13:14,567 --> 00:13:16,807 Speaker 2: Yes, could I have a question about the thirty year 258 00:13:16,847 --> 00:13:19,447 Speaker 2: olds because I have also heard this and I have 259 00:13:19,647 --> 00:13:21,807 Speaker 2: changed my opinion about it since I fought with Jesse 260 00:13:21,887 --> 00:13:23,407 Speaker 2: about it because I just didn't want to give us 261 00:13:23,407 --> 00:13:25,847 Speaker 2: something to feel sorry for a self about. So I 262 00:13:25,887 --> 00:13:27,687 Speaker 2: recognize that this is a real thing. But when we 263 00:13:27,727 --> 00:13:30,087 Speaker 2: say the worst time ever, do we mean financially? 264 00:13:30,367 --> 00:13:32,327 Speaker 3: I want to play a little grab to start off. 265 00:13:32,447 --> 00:13:35,007 Speaker 3: It's from the ABC show gruin last week. 266 00:13:35,167 --> 00:13:36,087 Speaker 1: Russell Holcroft. 267 00:13:36,167 --> 00:13:38,527 Speaker 3: He's a panelist on the show. He's also a marketing guru. 268 00:13:38,687 --> 00:13:42,127 Speaker 5: He said this, It's a fact that when I was thirty, 269 00:13:42,727 --> 00:13:45,967 Speaker 5: the house cost me three times my salary. Now eight 270 00:13:46,047 --> 00:13:48,327 Speaker 5: times plus for a thirty year old is what it's 271 00:13:48,327 --> 00:13:50,327 Speaker 5: going to cost you to get into the housing market. 272 00:13:50,727 --> 00:13:55,327 Speaker 5: It's true that hex has doubled in the last fifteen years, right, 273 00:13:55,647 --> 00:13:58,167 Speaker 5: doubled from a fifteen thousand dollar bill to a thirty 274 00:13:58,167 --> 00:14:02,607 Speaker 5: thousand dollar bill. It's true that a baby boomer paid 275 00:14:02,727 --> 00:14:04,967 Speaker 5: half the tax that a thirty year old pays now 276 00:14:05,007 --> 00:14:06,447 Speaker 5: when they were thirty years of age. 277 00:14:06,527 --> 00:14:10,887 Speaker 4: So for context, Russell Holcroft is genexa. He would be 278 00:14:11,047 --> 00:14:13,607 Speaker 4: like us. I remember my parents bought their first house 279 00:14:13,647 --> 00:14:18,007 Speaker 4: together for I think forty six thousand dollars. That is 280 00:14:18,127 --> 00:14:19,367 Speaker 4: mind blowing, Sydney. 281 00:14:19,447 --> 00:14:23,527 Speaker 3: I'm thirty three, and honestly, hearing Holcroft say that made 282 00:14:23,527 --> 00:14:26,247 Speaker 3: me feel quite relieved because I thought I was going 283 00:14:26,287 --> 00:14:29,687 Speaker 3: a bit crazy. It feels like right now everyone in 284 00:14:29,727 --> 00:14:32,727 Speaker 3: my generation is talking about the cost of living and 285 00:14:32,767 --> 00:14:36,007 Speaker 3: how hard it is to make those big purchases in 286 00:14:36,047 --> 00:14:40,967 Speaker 3: our life, like houses and weddings and big life moments. 287 00:14:40,527 --> 00:14:42,607 Speaker 1: Because really it's really really. 288 00:14:42,367 --> 00:14:46,607 Speaker 3: Tricky, and it made me feel quite validated hearing him 289 00:14:46,647 --> 00:14:49,727 Speaker 3: spell it all out like that, because it feels like 290 00:14:49,767 --> 00:14:51,607 Speaker 3: we're pushing against a brick wall. 291 00:14:51,967 --> 00:14:52,807 Speaker 1: Away the brick wall. 292 00:14:52,967 --> 00:14:55,727 Speaker 2: We're not the brick wall people. One of the things 293 00:14:55,727 --> 00:14:58,367 Speaker 2: we have to think about when we have these generational fights, right, 294 00:14:58,527 --> 00:15:00,847 Speaker 2: is that the reason people get defensive about it, and 295 00:15:00,887 --> 00:15:02,767 Speaker 2: I get a bit defensive about it as gen Xa, 296 00:15:02,807 --> 00:15:04,567 Speaker 2: Like when Jesse brought this up before, I'm like, oh, 297 00:15:04,647 --> 00:15:06,247 Speaker 2: you make it so like I heard it easy. I 298 00:15:06,287 --> 00:15:09,207 Speaker 2: didn't have it easy. And the thing is is, because 299 00:15:09,367 --> 00:15:11,287 Speaker 2: there isn't anything you can do about the generation you're 300 00:15:11,327 --> 00:15:13,527 Speaker 2: born into, right, it's not the boomer's fault that they 301 00:15:13,567 --> 00:15:15,847 Speaker 2: were the baby boomers. They've just played the hand that 302 00:15:15,887 --> 00:15:18,487 Speaker 2: they got. The thing you can change is the thing 303 00:15:18,567 --> 00:15:21,807 Speaker 2: that made the boomers so successful, which is much better 304 00:15:21,847 --> 00:15:26,047 Speaker 2: social policies around access to things like education and keeping 305 00:15:26,087 --> 00:15:29,527 Speaker 2: it cheap, and like inflation and keeping it down the 306 00:15:29,607 --> 00:15:32,367 Speaker 2: problem with this conversation is it too often becomes a 307 00:15:32,447 --> 00:15:36,607 Speaker 2: generational bond fight, as if we're like the gen Y 308 00:15:36,727 --> 00:15:38,727 Speaker 2: and Z are really mad with the boomers, as if 309 00:15:38,767 --> 00:15:39,927 Speaker 2: they've done something wrong. 310 00:15:40,167 --> 00:15:43,727 Speaker 1: I'm not mad at you. I'm really not. No, no, no, 311 00:15:43,767 --> 00:15:46,287 Speaker 1: I know you're not a millennial. I'm not boomers. 312 00:15:46,327 --> 00:15:48,567 Speaker 4: Just to be clear, people have come on this podcast 313 00:15:48,607 --> 00:15:51,887 Speaker 4: as guest hosts. I've really learned a lesson the hard 314 00:15:51,887 --> 00:15:54,087 Speaker 4: way when they have referred to holly and ized boomers. 315 00:15:54,127 --> 00:15:57,127 Speaker 4: So you have been warned that is your first strike strike. 316 00:15:57,447 --> 00:15:59,847 Speaker 2: I know that you, personally, GENMA are not mad and 317 00:15:59,887 --> 00:16:01,847 Speaker 2: as Mia says, we're not boomers, we're gen XI is 318 00:16:01,847 --> 00:16:05,367 Speaker 2: a very the forgotten generation. But generally it does get 319 00:16:05,447 --> 00:16:07,607 Speaker 2: like that. You look at the dialogue on social media 320 00:16:07,727 --> 00:16:10,247 Speaker 2: and it's kind of like give us your house, Boomer, right, 321 00:16:10,287 --> 00:16:14,047 Speaker 2: that's kind of the vibe, and I understand it. But 322 00:16:14,247 --> 00:16:16,327 Speaker 2: that's not the solution, is it. 323 00:16:16,367 --> 00:16:18,247 Speaker 1: But the solutions aren't. 324 00:16:17,887 --> 00:16:20,767 Speaker 2: They're going to give you their houses in the end. 325 00:16:20,887 --> 00:16:23,447 Speaker 3: They are, but it's Gen X and the boomers that 326 00:16:23,487 --> 00:16:25,447 Speaker 3: are currently in positions of power to be able to 327 00:16:25,527 --> 00:16:28,087 Speaker 3: change said social policies, to be able to make it 328 00:16:28,127 --> 00:16:31,527 Speaker 3: easier for us. So we're not annoyed at everyday boomers 329 00:16:31,527 --> 00:16:34,287 Speaker 3: and Gen X. I'm annoyed that our governments are ignoring 330 00:16:34,327 --> 00:16:36,927 Speaker 3: our pleas for help. That's what I'm annoyed at. I'm 331 00:16:36,967 --> 00:16:38,967 Speaker 3: running my own race. There's a little millennial in my 332 00:16:39,007 --> 00:16:41,687 Speaker 3: little millennial pool. I just want to be able to 333 00:16:42,007 --> 00:16:44,207 Speaker 3: do things. And you know the way, we need more 334 00:16:44,247 --> 00:16:47,567 Speaker 3: millennials in our fers. Like seriously, you always need a 335 00:16:47,607 --> 00:16:50,407 Speaker 3: real cross section of generations. I was hearing over the 336 00:16:50,407 --> 00:16:54,887 Speaker 3: weekend that they're trying to put an age cap in 337 00:16:55,167 --> 00:16:58,367 Speaker 3: Congress in the US because it's full of eighty and 338 00:16:58,447 --> 00:17:01,407 Speaker 3: ninety year olds. I think that the average age of 339 00:17:01,607 --> 00:17:04,807 Speaker 3: a senator or a congressman in Washington is. 340 00:17:04,807 --> 00:17:08,487 Speaker 4: Like eighty What a thirty year old needs and want, 341 00:17:08,647 --> 00:17:10,527 Speaker 4: So they're trying to cap it at like eighty one, 342 00:17:10,527 --> 00:17:13,647 Speaker 4: and they don't things like childcare and things like legislation 343 00:17:13,727 --> 00:17:17,447 Speaker 4: around the internet and social media. You need a real 344 00:17:17,487 --> 00:17:21,887 Speaker 4: cross section in every parliament, of ages, of genders, of 345 00:17:22,207 --> 00:17:23,447 Speaker 4: socioeconomic groups. 346 00:17:23,447 --> 00:17:24,047 Speaker 1: It's crucial. 347 00:17:24,407 --> 00:17:27,047 Speaker 2: In Australia, it's not too bad, but I hear you 348 00:17:27,047 --> 00:17:29,127 Speaker 2: you one hundred percent do me or you're right. But 349 00:17:29,167 --> 00:17:31,127 Speaker 2: also one of the reasons why this is difficult to 350 00:17:31,127 --> 00:17:34,327 Speaker 2: grapple with is it hasn't happened for generations, right. The 351 00:17:34,367 --> 00:17:36,887 Speaker 2: reason why this is such a tragedy really, and what 352 00:17:37,007 --> 00:17:38,887 Speaker 2: Horcroft is trying to explain there, and he does it 353 00:17:39,007 --> 00:17:41,087 Speaker 2: very well, is that for millennials and gen Z is 354 00:17:41,127 --> 00:17:43,807 Speaker 2: this is the first time in three generations that the 355 00:17:43,887 --> 00:17:46,047 Speaker 2: children are going to be worse off than their parents, 356 00:17:46,087 --> 00:17:49,327 Speaker 2: which is where this inheritance thing comes in, Right, Baby 357 00:17:49,327 --> 00:17:52,447 Speaker 2: Boom is inherited next to nothing from their parents because 358 00:17:52,487 --> 00:17:55,127 Speaker 2: the Great Depression, all of those things. Gen X, we're 359 00:17:55,127 --> 00:17:57,487 Speaker 2: not going to get much, right, Millennials are going to 360 00:17:57,487 --> 00:17:59,887 Speaker 2: get a lot of money one day. They're calling it 361 00:17:59,967 --> 00:18:02,727 Speaker 2: the Great Wealth Transfer. This isn't only in Australia, it's 362 00:18:02,727 --> 00:18:04,967 Speaker 2: in America. It's in all kinds of countries, and it's 363 00:18:05,007 --> 00:18:08,847 Speaker 2: going to be so seismic. You're right, gem that on 364 00:18:08,887 --> 00:18:11,207 Speaker 2: an in visual level, this is only going to benefit 365 00:18:11,287 --> 00:18:13,647 Speaker 2: you if your parents are doing well. But the reason 366 00:18:13,687 --> 00:18:16,727 Speaker 2: why it's a bigger picture thing is it literally is 367 00:18:16,767 --> 00:18:19,967 Speaker 2: the first time that your standard of living is going 368 00:18:20,007 --> 00:18:22,047 Speaker 2: to be lower than your parents by the time you 369 00:18:22,127 --> 00:18:25,007 Speaker 2: reach a significant point in your career, and so they're 370 00:18:25,007 --> 00:18:28,327 Speaker 2: figuring out how to handle that. And the argument about 371 00:18:28,327 --> 00:18:30,527 Speaker 2: whether or not you should be hurrying your parents along 372 00:18:31,207 --> 00:18:34,567 Speaker 2: is kind of humorous, except it's not. Because one of 373 00:18:34,647 --> 00:18:38,167 Speaker 2: the big conversations is about whether or not boomers and 374 00:18:38,407 --> 00:18:42,567 Speaker 2: older gen xers should be disincentivized to keep hold of 375 00:18:42,607 --> 00:18:44,967 Speaker 2: their family homes, for example, to force them back onto 376 00:18:45,007 --> 00:18:47,807 Speaker 2: the market for young people. But then the young people 377 00:18:47,807 --> 00:18:49,727 Speaker 2: aren't going to be able to afford to buy them anyway. 378 00:18:50,087 --> 00:18:52,367 Speaker 2: And they just did this survey in Australia about whether 379 00:18:52,487 --> 00:18:56,447 Speaker 2: or not boomers were willing to drop their lifestyle expectations 380 00:18:56,887 --> 00:18:59,007 Speaker 2: to help their kids out. And while lots of people 381 00:18:59,047 --> 00:19:01,887 Speaker 2: are doing that, another lot of boomers are also like, well, no, 382 00:19:02,047 --> 00:19:04,167 Speaker 2: because I worked really hard for this and why should 383 00:19:04,207 --> 00:19:06,807 Speaker 2: I be on two minute noodles in my retirement. And 384 00:19:06,847 --> 00:19:09,207 Speaker 2: that's where all the emotions and the argument stuff. 385 00:19:09,447 --> 00:19:11,287 Speaker 3: But this is why the bank of Mum and Dad 386 00:19:11,767 --> 00:19:14,287 Speaker 3: people scoff at that and at those headlines but it's 387 00:19:14,327 --> 00:19:18,687 Speaker 3: actually such an important part of our current society. I 388 00:19:18,727 --> 00:19:20,607 Speaker 3: know that I probably wouldn't have had a wedding if 389 00:19:20,687 --> 00:19:22,567 Speaker 3: I hadn't have had help from my parents. I also 390 00:19:22,567 --> 00:19:26,167 Speaker 3: wouldn't be in the relatively comfortable apartment i'm in if 391 00:19:26,167 --> 00:19:29,327 Speaker 3: my parents and in laws hadn't helped me, because even 392 00:19:29,367 --> 00:19:31,967 Speaker 3: though my husband and I are on relatively good incomes, 393 00:19:32,967 --> 00:19:36,647 Speaker 3: we couldn't afford what is currently out there in the world. 394 00:19:36,727 --> 00:19:37,367 Speaker 1: We do live. 395 00:19:37,207 --> 00:19:41,327 Speaker 3: One of the most expensive cities in Australia in the world. 396 00:19:42,007 --> 00:19:44,767 Speaker 3: It shouldn't be this tough, and that is why my 397 00:19:44,927 --> 00:19:48,087 Speaker 3: generation is looking to their parents to help them now, 398 00:19:48,487 --> 00:19:51,007 Speaker 3: not once they die, because now is when we need it. 399 00:19:51,047 --> 00:19:53,407 Speaker 3: I'm currently trying to build a family. 400 00:19:53,327 --> 00:19:55,767 Speaker 4: That if giving with a warm hand rather than a 401 00:19:55,807 --> 00:20:00,207 Speaker 4: cold exactly. I learned recently that something like more than 402 00:20:00,247 --> 00:20:04,807 Speaker 4: fifty percent of kids at private schools have their fees 403 00:20:04,847 --> 00:20:07,447 Speaker 4: paid by their grandparents, not their parents. 404 00:20:07,487 --> 00:20:07,887 Speaker 1: Wow. 405 00:20:08,287 --> 00:20:14,287 Speaker 4: So it's interesting seeing that privilege entrenched as well across generations. 406 00:20:14,727 --> 00:20:16,767 Speaker 2: I think it's a lot to ask a generation to 407 00:20:17,447 --> 00:20:20,567 Speaker 2: hand over their money. As I say, every generation thinks 408 00:20:20,567 --> 00:20:23,007 Speaker 2: they did it tough to a point. The boomers will say, 409 00:20:23,007 --> 00:20:24,927 Speaker 2: we worked really hard. But actually what helped them is 410 00:20:24,967 --> 00:20:27,287 Speaker 2: a lack of debt. And I didn't own a home 411 00:20:27,327 --> 00:20:29,087 Speaker 2: until I was in my late thirties. It's not like 412 00:20:29,127 --> 00:20:32,727 Speaker 2: we were all walking around snapping up properties at twenty two. 413 00:20:32,847 --> 00:20:35,327 Speaker 2: You know, I think there's like, you've got to have 414 00:20:35,367 --> 00:20:38,847 Speaker 2: a bigger picture on what is affecting this, And I 415 00:20:38,887 --> 00:20:40,767 Speaker 2: think you're right, gem is this it's more about putting 416 00:20:40,767 --> 00:20:42,767 Speaker 2: the pressure on the people in power rather than kicking 417 00:20:42,767 --> 00:20:44,007 Speaker 2: the boomers out of their houses. 418 00:20:44,207 --> 00:20:47,207 Speaker 3: But it's not handing over wealth to another generation. It 419 00:20:47,287 --> 00:20:50,407 Speaker 3: is giving your children and your grandchildren an opportunity to 420 00:20:50,407 --> 00:20:54,327 Speaker 3: live a comfortable life now money within the family. That's 421 00:20:54,367 --> 00:20:54,847 Speaker 3: what it is. 422 00:20:55,007 --> 00:20:57,607 Speaker 4: I hope your parents are listening. I had a funny 423 00:20:57,647 --> 00:21:00,527 Speaker 4: conversation with my mum yesterday. I haven't seen her for 424 00:21:00,607 --> 00:21:03,167 Speaker 4: sureis because my parents have had COVID, so they've been 425 00:21:03,247 --> 00:21:05,647 Speaker 4: kind of isolating themselves, and. 426 00:21:05,567 --> 00:21:06,487 Speaker 1: Before that they're away. 427 00:21:06,607 --> 00:21:09,447 Speaker 4: So we were talking about it and they were on 428 00:21:09,487 --> 00:21:12,647 Speaker 4: these antivirals, and you know, if anyone's been on antivirals 429 00:21:12,647 --> 00:21:15,687 Speaker 4: for COVID, which they recommend, if you're in a high 430 00:21:15,727 --> 00:21:18,847 Speaker 4: risk group or over a certain age, you can often 431 00:21:19,047 --> 00:21:21,087 Speaker 4: think you're recovering, and then it comes back and you 432 00:21:21,127 --> 00:21:23,967 Speaker 4: test positive again. Anyway, so it's been a long process. 433 00:21:24,207 --> 00:21:26,487 Speaker 4: And I said, yesterday I was asking about my dad 434 00:21:26,527 --> 00:21:30,647 Speaker 4: and she said, yeah, well you know, the end is near. 435 00:21:30,887 --> 00:21:34,407 Speaker 1: And I was like, you're not that old. Things have 436 00:21:34,487 --> 00:21:35,647 Speaker 1: got a bit dark. 437 00:21:35,647 --> 00:21:38,967 Speaker 3: My grandma, And she goes, she laughed, and she goes, Oh, no, darling, 438 00:21:39,047 --> 00:21:40,287 Speaker 3: I just meant the end of. 439 00:21:40,167 --> 00:21:43,767 Speaker 1: Like our COVID isolation. Oh, I went to the same 440 00:21:43,807 --> 00:21:44,327 Speaker 1: place as you. 441 00:21:44,887 --> 00:21:45,087 Speaker 5: Yeah. 442 00:21:45,567 --> 00:21:48,087 Speaker 2: I just have to say something for the gen xs though, right, 443 00:21:48,247 --> 00:21:50,367 Speaker 2: because one of the things that I struggle with about 444 00:21:50,367 --> 00:21:52,567 Speaker 2: the bank of Mom and dad idea is like, I 445 00:21:52,607 --> 00:21:54,407 Speaker 2: live in the same economy that you live in, right, 446 00:21:54,487 --> 00:21:57,567 Speaker 2: jem If the expectation now is that not only do 447 00:21:57,647 --> 00:22:00,207 Speaker 2: I have to work from now until whenever I may 448 00:22:00,407 --> 00:22:03,167 Speaker 2: or may not retire to pay off my mortgage and 449 00:22:03,287 --> 00:22:05,407 Speaker 2: live in this economy and feed everybody and drive a 450 00:22:05,407 --> 00:22:07,087 Speaker 2: car and all those things, but I also have to 451 00:22:07,127 --> 00:22:10,807 Speaker 2: somehow magically save enough money to give my kids a 452 00:22:10,927 --> 00:22:13,527 Speaker 2: deposit for a house in the most expensive corner of 453 00:22:13,567 --> 00:22:16,047 Speaker 2: the most expensive city in the world. It's like, no, babes, 454 00:22:16,087 --> 00:22:18,327 Speaker 2: You'll be making your own way and you'll be dealing 455 00:22:18,367 --> 00:22:19,287 Speaker 2: with what you're dealing with. 456 00:22:19,367 --> 00:22:19,727 Speaker 1: I don't know. 457 00:22:19,807 --> 00:22:23,047 Speaker 2: I find that it feels like extra pressure. 458 00:22:23,567 --> 00:22:26,887 Speaker 3: It is and it shouldn't be happening. It shouldn't be happening. 459 00:22:27,207 --> 00:22:30,087 Speaker 3: But I feel like my generation is screaming at that wall. 460 00:22:30,167 --> 00:22:32,367 Speaker 3: Let's bring the wall back. The wall is the politicians, 461 00:22:32,367 --> 00:22:35,807 Speaker 3: the people in charge, and until they change it, this 462 00:22:35,887 --> 00:22:36,927 Speaker 3: is what we've been doing to do. 463 00:22:37,007 --> 00:22:37,807 Speaker 1: What do you want them to do? 464 00:22:38,167 --> 00:22:40,847 Speaker 3: Change the policies, like with the housing market, make it 465 00:22:40,887 --> 00:22:43,287 Speaker 3: easier for us to break in. We used to have 466 00:22:43,367 --> 00:22:45,927 Speaker 3: first home buyers grants. That's no longer really a thing. 467 00:22:46,247 --> 00:22:47,647 Speaker 3: I didn't get a baby bonus. 468 00:22:47,887 --> 00:22:49,487 Speaker 4: I got a baby bonus, and then they worked out 469 00:22:49,487 --> 00:22:52,927 Speaker 4: everyone was using it to buy plasma TVs, so they 470 00:22:52,927 --> 00:22:53,447 Speaker 4: took it away. 471 00:22:53,447 --> 00:22:55,287 Speaker 1: How much was it? I think my first one was 472 00:22:55,327 --> 00:22:57,527 Speaker 1: three second. Do you know what I could do with 473 00:22:57,647 --> 00:22:58,887 Speaker 1: three thousand dollars? 474 00:22:58,887 --> 00:23:02,487 Speaker 4: People like some people were buying like fancy prans because everybody. 475 00:23:02,207 --> 00:23:04,047 Speaker 3: Got it right to share people let them buy the 476 00:23:04,087 --> 00:23:06,447 Speaker 3: fancy prean. No I got buying orf fucking dumb tree. 477 00:23:06,847 --> 00:23:09,847 Speaker 2: Although you know, again I didn't spend my baby bonus 478 00:23:09,847 --> 00:23:11,687 Speaker 2: on a plasma TV. It went to trying to have 479 00:23:11,727 --> 00:23:14,127 Speaker 2: some time off work. It's not true that it all 480 00:23:14,127 --> 00:23:15,007 Speaker 2: got fritted away. 481 00:23:15,087 --> 00:23:16,087 Speaker 1: It was like part of it. 482 00:23:16,127 --> 00:23:18,527 Speaker 2: At that time they didn't have paid maternity leave, so 483 00:23:18,567 --> 00:23:21,647 Speaker 2: the baby bonus stood. So again it's this resentment of like, 484 00:23:21,687 --> 00:23:23,567 Speaker 2: you guys had it easy. Everyone was giving you money 485 00:23:23,567 --> 00:23:25,527 Speaker 2: to buy TVs. It's like, no, it isn't like that. 486 00:23:25,647 --> 00:23:26,647 Speaker 1: It wasn't like that. 487 00:23:26,807 --> 00:23:29,487 Speaker 2: You know. It's also true that in places like Germany, 488 00:23:29,527 --> 00:23:32,127 Speaker 2: where there's much less of an expectation that everyone will 489 00:23:32,127 --> 00:23:34,767 Speaker 2: own their own home, like renting is more part of 490 00:23:34,767 --> 00:23:38,087 Speaker 2: the culture, they make renting more secure because that's another thing, right, 491 00:23:38,167 --> 00:23:39,967 Speaker 2: is that if you're facing that, you're definitely going to 492 00:23:40,007 --> 00:23:41,967 Speaker 2: be renting till you're in your forties. One of the 493 00:23:41,967 --> 00:23:44,127 Speaker 2: reasons why that's a problem, apart from wealth building up, 494 00:23:44,167 --> 00:23:46,687 Speaker 2: is the insecurity of it. So you can change policies 495 00:23:46,727 --> 00:23:49,567 Speaker 2: around that. You can change policies around HEXTEP, which this 496 00:23:49,647 --> 00:23:51,807 Speaker 2: government is doing a little bit but not enough. You 497 00:23:51,847 --> 00:23:54,047 Speaker 2: can relieve some of the burden of pressure on this 498 00:23:54,127 --> 00:23:57,047 Speaker 2: generation to be under a pile of debt from the 499 00:23:57,047 --> 00:23:58,407 Speaker 2: minute they step out of UNI. 500 00:23:58,607 --> 00:24:01,207 Speaker 3: Trust me, I don't want to take money from my parents. 501 00:24:01,447 --> 00:24:03,047 Speaker 3: I don't want to I want to do it all 502 00:24:03,087 --> 00:24:07,447 Speaker 3: by myself. But it's like, until they change stuff, I 503 00:24:07,487 --> 00:24:10,647 Speaker 3: am having to take some handouts here and there to. 504 00:24:10,567 --> 00:24:13,087 Speaker 1: Be able to pursue what I want in life. 505 00:24:15,327 --> 00:24:17,127 Speaker 4: Do you want daily outloud access? 506 00:24:17,167 --> 00:24:17,887 Speaker 1: Why wouldn't you? 507 00:24:18,007 --> 00:24:22,207 Speaker 4: We dropped episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mum 508 00:24:22,207 --> 00:24:24,487 Speaker 4: and Me A subscribers. Follow the link in the show 509 00:24:24,527 --> 00:24:26,847 Speaker 4: notes to get us in your ears five days a week, 510 00:24:27,247 --> 00:24:29,847 Speaker 4: and a huge thank you if you're already a subscriber. 511 00:24:38,727 --> 00:24:40,887 Speaker 4: There's a sex scene everyone's talking about this week, which 512 00:24:41,007 --> 00:24:43,807 Speaker 4: is kind of interesting in itself because sex scenes are 513 00:24:43,887 --> 00:24:47,767 Speaker 4: rarely controversial anymore. The last controversial sex scene I can 514 00:24:47,807 --> 00:24:50,847 Speaker 4: think of was that time a few years ago when 515 00:24:50,847 --> 00:24:53,327 Speaker 4: Miranda got finger banged in the kitchen by her new 516 00:24:53,367 --> 00:24:57,247 Speaker 4: non binary partner Chay while Carrie recovered from surgery in 517 00:24:57,247 --> 00:24:58,607 Speaker 4: the next room and had to wean a bottle. 518 00:24:58,727 --> 00:24:59,727 Speaker 1: Remember that was a vibe. 519 00:24:59,767 --> 00:25:01,167 Speaker 2: That was a good time. 520 00:25:01,567 --> 00:25:02,847 Speaker 1: They were good times. 521 00:25:03,327 --> 00:25:06,807 Speaker 4: The sex scene in question is from the third season 522 00:25:07,047 --> 00:25:09,487 Speaker 4: of Bridgeton, and there's a lot of sex in the 523 00:25:09,487 --> 00:25:11,807 Speaker 4: TV show bridget And we've seen all kinds of sex, 524 00:25:11,847 --> 00:25:16,567 Speaker 4: including in this season. Why is this particular scene causing 525 00:25:16,807 --> 00:25:19,647 Speaker 4: such a buzz. And it's not just because it was 526 00:25:19,767 --> 00:25:22,287 Speaker 4: a six minute sex scene. If you thought it went 527 00:25:22,327 --> 00:25:25,247 Speaker 4: on for a long time, it did. It's kind of 528 00:25:25,407 --> 00:25:28,367 Speaker 4: was the whole sex in real time, which I really appreciated, 529 00:25:29,007 --> 00:25:32,527 Speaker 4: because sometimes sex can either be really fast on camera 530 00:25:33,007 --> 00:25:35,487 Speaker 4: or it can seem like it goes sort of for 531 00:25:35,567 --> 00:25:38,487 Speaker 4: hours in time lapse. Is it a same sex scene? No? 532 00:25:38,927 --> 00:25:42,447 Speaker 1: Is it a threesome? No moral anal? No? 533 00:25:42,447 --> 00:25:47,687 Speaker 4: No, it's actually a very vanilla, sweet, loving, losing my 534 00:25:47,807 --> 00:25:51,007 Speaker 4: virginity scene between a man and a woman who are 535 00:25:51,047 --> 00:25:55,167 Speaker 4: engaged to be married. Penelope and Colin or Pollen as 536 00:25:55,167 --> 00:25:56,647 Speaker 4: their portmanteau. 537 00:25:56,247 --> 00:25:57,687 Speaker 1: Has become cute. 538 00:25:58,327 --> 00:26:00,287 Speaker 4: The reason this scene is and I don't want to 539 00:26:00,367 --> 00:26:03,487 Speaker 4: use the word controversial, but maybe surprising is a better word, 540 00:26:03,527 --> 00:26:07,247 Speaker 4: because I certainly felt surprised when I saw it, is 541 00:26:07,287 --> 00:26:11,247 Speaker 4: because the actress in this scene, Nicola Coughlin, whose body 542 00:26:11,327 --> 00:26:14,247 Speaker 4: is not the same size or shape as every other 543 00:26:14,287 --> 00:26:18,127 Speaker 4: female body that we're used to seeing in sex scenes 544 00:26:18,207 --> 00:26:21,807 Speaker 4: on TV shows and in movies. Nicola, who stars as 545 00:26:21,847 --> 00:26:26,567 Speaker 4: Penelope Featherington, has been asked by a lot of media 546 00:26:27,407 --> 00:26:31,967 Speaker 4: who have referred to her bravery for being semi naked 547 00:26:32,167 --> 00:26:36,927 Speaker 4: in that scene because her body is curvier than the 548 00:26:37,007 --> 00:26:39,127 Speaker 4: type of body that you usually see in a Hollywood 549 00:26:39,127 --> 00:26:43,207 Speaker 4: sex scene. Here's how Nicola responded when she was asked 550 00:26:43,247 --> 00:26:46,607 Speaker 4: about her bravery when filming that scene. 551 00:26:50,567 --> 00:26:53,207 Speaker 2: You know it is because I think women with body tied, 552 00:26:53,367 --> 00:26:54,807 Speaker 2: women with perfect rests. 553 00:26:59,447 --> 00:27:01,047 Speaker 1: I love that. That's so good. 554 00:27:01,127 --> 00:27:03,807 Speaker 4: It was such a great clapback. But I think that 555 00:27:03,847 --> 00:27:08,207 Speaker 4: the question is kind of valid because there is a 556 00:27:08,247 --> 00:27:11,087 Speaker 4: surprise in c that scene. The other thing that was 557 00:27:11,087 --> 00:27:13,887 Speaker 4: interesting about it is how consent was handled. There were 558 00:27:13,887 --> 00:27:16,767 Speaker 4: two sex scenes. Actually, there's another finger banging scene in 559 00:27:16,807 --> 00:27:21,647 Speaker 4: a carriage with Colin and Penelope, and that consent is 560 00:27:21,727 --> 00:27:24,807 Speaker 4: done so well and then made to look really sexy. 561 00:27:24,847 --> 00:27:27,007 Speaker 4: I haven't seen that before where he just looks at 562 00:27:27,047 --> 00:27:30,567 Speaker 4: her and raises his eyebrows to say can I do this? 563 00:27:30,647 --> 00:27:33,527 Speaker 4: And she nods and same when they have the actual 564 00:27:33,687 --> 00:27:36,447 Speaker 4: losing her virginity scene, he checks in with. 565 00:27:36,407 --> 00:27:41,047 Speaker 1: Her, must stop. We do not watch for that? Do 566 00:27:41,087 --> 00:27:44,167 Speaker 1: you thot watch for you to stop? I really loved it. 567 00:27:44,207 --> 00:27:45,167 Speaker 1: I thought it was amazing. 568 00:27:45,607 --> 00:27:45,887 Speaker 2: Hole. 569 00:27:46,127 --> 00:27:48,847 Speaker 4: You were a bit on the fence about this season 570 00:27:48,847 --> 00:27:51,567 Speaker 4: of Bridgeton. Did you find that scene as horny is 571 00:27:51,727 --> 00:27:52,407 Speaker 4: everyone else? 572 00:27:52,647 --> 00:27:56,647 Speaker 2: I loved it. I've had to issue a formal apology 573 00:27:56,687 --> 00:27:59,447 Speaker 2: to me because when the first half of this season 574 00:27:59,487 --> 00:28:03,127 Speaker 2: dropped because they're dropping Bridgeton in two sections on a 575 00:28:03,127 --> 00:28:05,047 Speaker 2: Friday night, I watched the first two or three and 576 00:28:05,087 --> 00:28:07,047 Speaker 2: I was like, Man, I'm over this the whole, Like, 577 00:28:07,087 --> 00:28:09,247 Speaker 2: who's the diamond of the season, Who's going to marry her? 578 00:28:09,447 --> 00:28:09,767 Speaker 1: Whatever? 579 00:28:09,887 --> 00:28:12,727 Speaker 2: I'm done. It seems so silly. And then I just 580 00:28:13,207 --> 00:28:16,647 Speaker 2: inhaled this second half over the weekend and loved every 581 00:28:16,647 --> 00:28:19,047 Speaker 2: bit of it, which leads me to believe I must 582 00:28:19,047 --> 00:28:21,047 Speaker 2: have been in a very bad mood when I started 583 00:28:21,047 --> 00:28:23,047 Speaker 2: watching it, or maybe I was just waiting for the 584 00:28:23,087 --> 00:28:25,327 Speaker 2: sex scenes. And they have not disappointed. 585 00:28:25,967 --> 00:28:26,727 Speaker 1: I love this. 586 00:28:26,927 --> 00:28:28,927 Speaker 2: And the thing is is that we had a conversation 587 00:28:29,047 --> 00:28:31,087 Speaker 2: the other week that went on and on and many 588 00:28:31,087 --> 00:28:34,447 Speaker 2: out louders joined in about beauty standards and about whether 589 00:28:34,567 --> 00:28:37,527 Speaker 2: or not we should call everybody beautiful, like the idea 590 00:28:37,567 --> 00:28:40,287 Speaker 2: everybody's beautiful is a good idea or not? The thing 591 00:28:40,367 --> 00:28:42,567 Speaker 2: I love about Bridgeton and they've done it in this 592 00:28:42,647 --> 00:28:45,207 Speaker 2: season with different body types, but they did it last 593 00:28:45,247 --> 00:28:49,847 Speaker 2: season with different ethnicities. Because the sexy female lead last 594 00:28:49,927 --> 00:28:52,887 Speaker 2: year was South Asian descent. Kate Schwama, she's called in 595 00:28:52,927 --> 00:28:55,767 Speaker 2: the show Simon Ashley in real life, and that was 596 00:28:55,807 --> 00:28:58,287 Speaker 2: a mixed race couple. Like the first season was where 597 00:28:58,327 --> 00:29:01,327 Speaker 2: this woman was just so beautiful, and I know that 598 00:29:01,407 --> 00:29:03,407 Speaker 2: m Vernon wrote a piece about how happy she was 599 00:29:03,447 --> 00:29:06,607 Speaker 2: to see that reflected in this one. They've taken a 600 00:29:06,647 --> 00:29:09,807 Speaker 2: woman who in the first couple of seasons was generally 601 00:29:09,847 --> 00:29:11,807 Speaker 2: perceived to be a bit of a wallflower and the 602 00:29:11,847 --> 00:29:13,847 Speaker 2: butt of the joke and her being a wallflower is 603 00:29:13,847 --> 00:29:18,847 Speaker 2: a big thing, and they have shot her. She is beautiful. 604 00:29:18,967 --> 00:29:23,007 Speaker 2: She is so beautiful, her skin, her perfect breasts as 605 00:29:23,007 --> 00:29:27,447 Speaker 2: she describes them, and they really are. I absolutely loved it. 606 00:29:27,567 --> 00:29:29,807 Speaker 2: The thing I think is good about this is, even 607 00:29:29,847 --> 00:29:32,247 Speaker 2: though it's silly and maybe a bit embarrassing that everybody's 608 00:29:32,647 --> 00:29:35,887 Speaker 2: questioning Nicola Cochlan about how she feels about her body, 609 00:29:36,207 --> 00:29:39,447 Speaker 2: we're watching beauty standards expanding in real time because women 610 00:29:40,207 --> 00:29:44,527 Speaker 2: love this. Why do women love it seeing this conventionally hot, 611 00:29:44,687 --> 00:29:47,807 Speaker 2: sexy dude mad with lust for this woman who is 612 00:29:47,887 --> 00:29:53,407 Speaker 2: not tall, skinny, straight sized. It's because it makes us 613 00:29:53,447 --> 00:29:56,607 Speaker 2: feel seen. And she is beautiful. 614 00:29:56,807 --> 00:29:57,687 Speaker 1: She's also hot. 615 00:29:57,807 --> 00:30:01,447 Speaker 3: She's so hot, but she's also as amazing off screen 616 00:30:01,567 --> 00:30:03,207 Speaker 3: as she is on screen, which. 617 00:30:02,967 --> 00:30:04,087 Speaker 1: Is what I love about her. 618 00:30:04,207 --> 00:30:06,207 Speaker 3: So the script actually called for her to be more 619 00:30:06,207 --> 00:30:08,287 Speaker 3: covered up than she is in the show. She's the 620 00:30:08,287 --> 00:30:09,807 Speaker 3: one that actually was like, no, I want to be 621 00:30:09,847 --> 00:30:10,367 Speaker 3: more naked. 622 00:30:10,447 --> 00:30:11,887 Speaker 1: Paint me like your French girls. 623 00:30:11,967 --> 00:30:14,207 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like, let me be as naked as the 624 00:30:14,247 --> 00:30:16,487 Speaker 4: other straight sized women who get sex scenes. 625 00:30:16,607 --> 00:30:17,927 Speaker 3: She kind of said she wanted to do it as 626 00:30:17,927 --> 00:30:20,527 Speaker 3: a bit of a fuck you, which I just think 627 00:30:20,607 --> 00:30:23,887 Speaker 3: is amazing. And that's not the first time she's been asked. 628 00:30:23,687 --> 00:30:25,727 Speaker 1: That grab that we heard about her. 629 00:30:25,607 --> 00:30:28,567 Speaker 3: Body, and it's always journalists that bring up those, you know, 630 00:30:29,087 --> 00:30:32,007 Speaker 3: words like bravery, But when you actually watch Bridgeton, there's 631 00:30:32,127 --> 00:30:34,967 Speaker 3: no mention of weight. There's no mention of the fact 632 00:30:35,007 --> 00:30:38,727 Speaker 3: that that is an issue for Colin or for her. 633 00:30:38,927 --> 00:30:41,127 Speaker 3: It's just a non issue. It's just a thing. 634 00:30:41,447 --> 00:30:42,967 Speaker 1: It's just what I think is so amazing. 635 00:30:43,047 --> 00:30:46,767 Speaker 4: Shonda Rhimes, who is responsible for this show and Gray's 636 00:30:46,767 --> 00:30:49,967 Speaker 4: Anatomy and so many other shows, I think she's done 637 00:30:50,007 --> 00:30:54,007 Speaker 4: more for expanding beauty standards in our culture, in our 638 00:30:54,007 --> 00:30:57,087 Speaker 4: pop culture, and our broader culture than anybody I can 639 00:30:57,127 --> 00:31:00,967 Speaker 4: think of, because she has consistently done this from the 640 00:31:00,967 --> 00:31:04,047 Speaker 4: beginning of her career when she didn't have much power casting. 641 00:31:04,087 --> 00:31:06,727 Speaker 4: Sandra was one of the leads on Grades Anatomy and 642 00:31:06,967 --> 00:31:10,527 Speaker 4: having mixed race couples and people different body shapes and 643 00:31:10,607 --> 00:31:14,767 Speaker 4: ages and sizes in all of her shows. She's extraordinary 644 00:31:14,847 --> 00:31:17,167 Speaker 4: and I think this is yet another example of that. 645 00:31:17,247 --> 00:31:21,447 Speaker 4: And I love the fact that appearance is never mentioned 646 00:31:21,487 --> 00:31:22,087 Speaker 4: in this show. 647 00:31:22,847 --> 00:31:23,607 Speaker 1: It just isn't. 648 00:31:24,007 --> 00:31:27,807 Speaker 3: I could see another director, though, taking that story and 649 00:31:28,207 --> 00:31:31,927 Speaker 3: doing what the books did, which was make nicholas character 650 00:31:31,967 --> 00:31:33,567 Speaker 3: Penelope lose weight. 651 00:31:33,887 --> 00:31:35,127 Speaker 1: In the books, she loses weight. 652 00:31:35,207 --> 00:31:37,807 Speaker 2: She she has a different kind of makeover. 653 00:31:37,927 --> 00:31:41,487 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, whereas she made an actual decision, Well that's 654 00:31:41,527 --> 00:31:41,927 Speaker 3: not happening. 655 00:31:42,047 --> 00:31:43,447 Speaker 1: Yes, Shonda wouldn't have been into that. 656 00:31:43,647 --> 00:31:45,927 Speaker 2: Well, the only thing is is that they might not 657 00:31:46,007 --> 00:31:48,967 Speaker 2: mention weight directly. But the whole point of this storyline 658 00:31:49,007 --> 00:31:51,487 Speaker 2: is that she's an unexpected choice for the Heartthrop right 659 00:31:51,687 --> 00:31:55,527 Speaker 2: like her walla Flower status is mentioned constantly. The other 660 00:31:55,647 --> 00:31:58,127 Speaker 2: fancy people on the circuit are all like, oh, as 661 00:31:58,127 --> 00:32:01,287 Speaker 2: if you know so, it is reference. The only thing 662 00:32:01,367 --> 00:32:03,007 Speaker 2: is I'm just going to argue against myself for a 663 00:32:03,047 --> 00:32:05,567 Speaker 2: minute because I was celebrating this so much. But then 664 00:32:05,607 --> 00:32:08,047 Speaker 2: Mia when you said, paint me like your French girls. 665 00:32:08,167 --> 00:32:11,807 Speaker 2: Obviously I got excited. Who doesn't love that? But it 666 00:32:11,887 --> 00:32:15,007 Speaker 2: made me remember that, actually, do these kind of big 667 00:32:15,047 --> 00:32:18,647 Speaker 2: pop culture moments really expand beauty standards Because all the 668 00:32:18,687 --> 00:32:21,127 Speaker 2: way back then in the nineties, when Kate Winslet was 669 00:32:21,207 --> 00:32:25,087 Speaker 2: Rose in Titanic, the headlines were all about her body. 670 00:32:25,247 --> 00:32:29,287 Speaker 2: Kate Wincelet got very much pigeonholed as a larger woman, 671 00:32:29,767 --> 00:32:32,327 Speaker 2: someone who is exceptional to the beauty standards of the day, 672 00:32:32,407 --> 00:32:36,087 Speaker 2: and she was constantly asked about that being curvy, being larger, 673 00:32:36,327 --> 00:32:40,327 Speaker 2: which now seems almost ridiculous, but that was the obsession. 674 00:32:40,847 --> 00:32:42,967 Speaker 2: Then we kind of went back to skinny ladies for 675 00:32:42,967 --> 00:32:44,767 Speaker 2: a long time, and I know that sounds disparaging, but 676 00:32:44,807 --> 00:32:47,047 Speaker 2: you know what I mean, that the beautiful heartthrom had 677 00:32:47,087 --> 00:32:49,647 Speaker 2: to look a certain way. Then remember when Girls came 678 00:32:49,687 --> 00:32:53,047 Speaker 2: out and Lena Dunham was in sex scenes with this 679 00:32:53,327 --> 00:32:56,527 Speaker 2: body that we weren't used to seeing naked, and headlines 680 00:32:56,567 --> 00:33:00,167 Speaker 2: and headlines about her bravery. How remarkable it was that 681 00:33:00,207 --> 00:33:02,967 Speaker 2: she would consent to be semi naked on screen when 682 00:33:02,967 --> 00:33:05,127 Speaker 2: she didn't look like a supermodel. And then we go 683 00:33:05,247 --> 00:33:06,887 Speaker 2: back to the beauty standards for a while, and then 684 00:33:06,967 --> 00:33:09,927 Speaker 2: Nicola breaks through. I wonder like, do we expand and 685 00:33:10,087 --> 00:33:12,767 Speaker 2: stay or do we just expand and contract. 686 00:33:13,247 --> 00:33:17,727 Speaker 4: I think that it takes a long time of tapping 687 00:33:17,727 --> 00:33:21,047 Speaker 4: on that glass ceiling of beauty standards until you break through. 688 00:33:21,727 --> 00:33:25,087 Speaker 4: And I think that you have to have a creator. 689 00:33:25,487 --> 00:33:27,407 Speaker 4: I can't speak for Titanic, but you look at Lena 690 00:33:27,447 --> 00:33:29,567 Speaker 4: Dunnan was the creator of Girls. Shonda Rhimes is the 691 00:33:29,607 --> 00:33:34,327 Speaker 4: creator of Bridgeton. Who spend the capital that they've earned 692 00:33:34,327 --> 00:33:38,047 Speaker 4: from their success and push that through because it's not easy. 693 00:33:38,167 --> 00:33:41,887 Speaker 4: Studios don't like it, marketing team don't like it. It's 694 00:33:41,927 --> 00:33:44,807 Speaker 4: not a selling point as such. You've got to have 695 00:33:45,007 --> 00:33:46,407 Speaker 4: someone who really fights for it. 696 00:33:46,527 --> 00:33:49,487 Speaker 2: Why don't studios and marketing teams like it anymore? When 697 00:33:49,527 --> 00:33:51,487 Speaker 2: what this shows again and again by the way that 698 00:33:51,527 --> 00:33:54,767 Speaker 2: these that when we see it, women are so unbelievably 699 00:33:55,087 --> 00:33:58,327 Speaker 2: embracing and love it that it's good for business. 700 00:33:58,087 --> 00:34:00,127 Speaker 3: Because there's plenty of people out there that are still 701 00:34:00,167 --> 00:34:03,487 Speaker 3: of the opinion that it's not good, even Nikola. 702 00:34:03,207 --> 00:34:06,047 Speaker 4: Because men make decisions whole Like the argument when I 703 00:34:06,167 --> 00:34:08,007 Speaker 4: used to try to put women of different shapes and 704 00:34:08,047 --> 00:34:10,647 Speaker 4: sizes on the cover of Cosmo. I had to fight 705 00:34:10,687 --> 00:34:12,247 Speaker 4: and fight and fight and fight for that, and I 706 00:34:12,327 --> 00:34:14,647 Speaker 4: kept saying it's good business, like forget about what your 707 00:34:14,687 --> 00:34:18,767 Speaker 4: personal preferences are. It's good business. But when you're trying 708 00:34:18,807 --> 00:34:21,847 Speaker 4: to do something different and move away from the norm 709 00:34:22,367 --> 00:34:26,127 Speaker 4: and put forward a beauty standard that isn't the preferred 710 00:34:26,167 --> 00:34:30,047 Speaker 4: beauty standard of our culture, of course that's a risk. 711 00:34:30,247 --> 00:34:31,887 Speaker 1: And no one wants to take risks. 712 00:34:31,527 --> 00:34:36,567 Speaker 3: And Nicholas being trolled, so she rode on Instagram if 713 00:34:36,607 --> 00:34:38,887 Speaker 3: you have an opinion about my body, please don't share it. 714 00:34:39,167 --> 00:34:41,247 Speaker 3: I'm just one real life human being and it's really 715 00:34:41,287 --> 00:34:43,847 Speaker 3: hard to take the weight of thousands of opinions on 716 00:34:43,927 --> 00:34:46,647 Speaker 3: how you look being sent to you every day. So 717 00:34:46,727 --> 00:34:48,687 Speaker 3: even though there is one half of society that is 718 00:34:48,767 --> 00:34:51,847 Speaker 3: celebrating her, and I saw so many women on my 719 00:34:51,887 --> 00:34:55,327 Speaker 3: own social media kind of putting up Instagram stories being like, 720 00:34:55,647 --> 00:34:57,887 Speaker 3: oh my gosh, I saw my body on screen. I 721 00:34:57,887 --> 00:35:01,367 Speaker 3: saw a woman's body with folds and moving in a 722 00:35:01,407 --> 00:35:03,407 Speaker 3: way that mine moves when I have sex. 723 00:35:03,927 --> 00:35:06,407 Speaker 1: So there's that side, but there's still these people that. 724 00:35:06,407 --> 00:35:10,047 Speaker 3: Are dropping into Nicholas dms being like you're not worthy. 725 00:35:10,207 --> 00:35:12,327 Speaker 4: It's also just not the shape of her body. It's 726 00:35:12,367 --> 00:35:17,607 Speaker 4: the idea of someone being sexual, like being portrayed in 727 00:35:17,647 --> 00:35:20,407 Speaker 4: a sexual way, because if you look at Rebel Wilson's career, 728 00:35:21,287 --> 00:35:23,967 Speaker 4: it's all just about comedy and the butt of the joke. 729 00:35:24,087 --> 00:35:27,887 Speaker 4: It's never about her actual desire and someone desiring her 730 00:35:28,607 --> 00:35:33,007 Speaker 4: without a gag. And even someone like Melissa McCarthy. You know, 731 00:35:33,047 --> 00:35:35,807 Speaker 4: you look at the women who are not straight sized 732 00:35:35,847 --> 00:35:38,767 Speaker 4: who are in Hollywood, and they are played for laughs generally. 733 00:35:39,007 --> 00:35:41,487 Speaker 4: And that's not a criticism of those women in particular, 734 00:35:41,527 --> 00:35:44,207 Speaker 4: because my god, there's so little work and it's so hard. 735 00:35:44,727 --> 00:35:47,887 Speaker 4: Whatever they can do to get roles and work is great. 736 00:35:48,407 --> 00:35:51,687 Speaker 4: But I think that's the difference here portraying her as 737 00:35:51,727 --> 00:35:53,727 Speaker 4: a sexual creature, the same as Lena Dunham. 738 00:35:53,927 --> 00:35:56,727 Speaker 2: The massive success of Bridgeton has been that it's saucy scenes, 739 00:35:56,767 --> 00:35:58,527 Speaker 2: as I described them to my daughter when she's like, 740 00:35:58,527 --> 00:36:00,807 Speaker 2: why are you watching that show? And I'm like, it's saucy. 741 00:36:00,927 --> 00:36:06,567 Speaker 2: That's what anyway, the saucy scenes from the female gaze, 742 00:36:06,607 --> 00:36:08,527 Speaker 2: and that's what people love about them. Right, It's the 743 00:36:08,527 --> 00:36:11,607 Speaker 2: same with outline of female gaze is good for business, 744 00:36:11,647 --> 00:36:13,167 Speaker 2: but you know who else is being trolled, which is 745 00:36:13,167 --> 00:36:16,967 Speaker 2: interesting is Colin the man who plays Colin, because he 746 00:36:17,087 --> 00:36:19,567 Speaker 2: was pictured last week with his actual, real life new 747 00:36:19,567 --> 00:36:22,647 Speaker 2: girlfriend and she doesn't look like Nicola cochlan. She looks 748 00:36:22,887 --> 00:36:27,087 Speaker 2: much more like a very stereotypically hot young thing, and 749 00:36:27,327 --> 00:36:29,687 Speaker 2: the internet's lost its mind in fury at him. So 750 00:36:29,807 --> 00:36:34,247 Speaker 2: now it's like, it's like, how very dare you actually 751 00:36:34,287 --> 00:36:37,767 Speaker 2: not be that? So, you know, our expectations are enormous. 752 00:36:37,887 --> 00:36:39,487 Speaker 3: Do you think there will ever be a time when 753 00:36:39,687 --> 00:36:43,087 Speaker 3: this is not a conversation where we don't even have 754 00:36:43,127 --> 00:36:44,887 Speaker 3: to do a segment like this because it's a non event. 755 00:36:45,047 --> 00:36:46,927 Speaker 4: I mean, I'd like to think that. I just think 756 00:36:46,967 --> 00:36:50,527 Speaker 4: it's important without wanting to make things any harder. For 757 00:36:50,607 --> 00:36:55,647 Speaker 4: Nikola Coglin, it's important to applaud and recognize when something 758 00:36:56,087 --> 00:37:00,527 Speaker 4: is subversive and pushes the boundaries and support it so 759 00:37:00,567 --> 00:37:03,007 Speaker 4: that then the next time someone has to make that decision, 760 00:37:03,687 --> 00:37:06,687 Speaker 4: they also will push those boundaries and push those boundaries. 761 00:37:06,687 --> 00:37:09,047 Speaker 4: It's always hard being the first. So she's brave. 762 00:37:09,287 --> 00:37:12,807 Speaker 2: She's also unquestionably great, you know, like she creates shows, 763 00:37:12,807 --> 00:37:15,967 Speaker 2: she's a brilliant performer. She's great than this, Like, I'm 764 00:37:16,047 --> 00:37:17,647 Speaker 2: very glad she's having her moment. 765 00:37:17,727 --> 00:37:21,367 Speaker 3: Our entertainment podcast The Spill, had an interesting conversation about 766 00:37:21,367 --> 00:37:22,047 Speaker 3: this on Friday. 767 00:37:22,087 --> 00:37:22,767 Speaker 1: Here's a taste. 768 00:37:23,167 --> 00:37:25,567 Speaker 6: Obviously, the character of Colin is a lot more experienced 769 00:37:25,967 --> 00:37:29,527 Speaker 6: and a very experience and they talk about that in 770 00:37:29,567 --> 00:37:32,887 Speaker 6: the sex scene, which I thought was interesting. Obviously is 771 00:37:32,927 --> 00:37:35,647 Speaker 6: set hundreds of years ago, but it felt like a 772 00:37:35,687 --> 00:37:38,967 Speaker 6: conversation you'd almost be having now in modern times, about 773 00:37:38,967 --> 00:37:40,687 Speaker 6: like there's a lot of consent in and of him 774 00:37:40,687 --> 00:37:42,887 Speaker 6: saying like I'm about to do this? Is this okay? 775 00:37:43,487 --> 00:37:45,407 Speaker 3: A link to that episode will be in the show 776 00:37:45,447 --> 00:37:46,567 Speaker 3: notes out Louder. 777 00:37:46,647 --> 00:37:50,847 Speaker 4: Sometimes we need each other to help solve dilemmas. We 778 00:37:50,927 --> 00:37:53,767 Speaker 4: have a segment called group therapy where we help solve 779 00:37:53,927 --> 00:37:57,927 Speaker 4: a dilemma, and this week we solved the dilemma of 780 00:37:58,207 --> 00:38:00,807 Speaker 4: an out louder whose twenty three year old daughter was 781 00:38:00,847 --> 00:38:02,887 Speaker 4: out for her birthday. Her boss was there, and it 782 00:38:03,047 --> 00:38:06,327 Speaker 4: ended in some really inappropriate behavior from her boss and 783 00:38:06,367 --> 00:38:08,727 Speaker 4: a whole lot of other men there. And we had 784 00:38:08,767 --> 00:38:11,327 Speaker 4: a really interesting conversation. 785 00:38:10,847 --> 00:38:13,367 Speaker 2: Didn't we hold Yes, I'm not sure we did solve it, 786 00:38:13,407 --> 00:38:16,487 Speaker 2: to be honest, but like I've been replaying that conversation 787 00:38:16,567 --> 00:38:19,247 Speaker 2: in my head all weekend, and I. 788 00:38:19,167 --> 00:38:21,407 Speaker 4: Know out louders have here's a little stening peak of 789 00:38:21,407 --> 00:38:22,127 Speaker 4: how it went down. 790 00:38:22,687 --> 00:38:25,607 Speaker 2: I can't believe that you said that she should change 791 00:38:25,607 --> 00:38:26,007 Speaker 2: her job? 792 00:38:26,287 --> 00:38:26,927 Speaker 1: What do you mean? 793 00:38:27,007 --> 00:38:30,327 Speaker 2: Of course she shouldn't change her fucking job? Like that's outrageous. 794 00:38:30,327 --> 00:38:32,327 Speaker 2: Why should he get to keep his job and as 795 00:38:32,327 --> 00:38:34,967 Speaker 2: sleazy coworkers get to keep his job and she has 796 00:38:35,007 --> 00:38:37,407 Speaker 2: to go through all the drama and change in trauma 797 00:38:37,407 --> 00:38:39,447 Speaker 2: of changing a job because I know he will end. 798 00:38:39,407 --> 00:38:41,847 Speaker 6: Up a job, keeping his job, and the only person 799 00:38:41,967 --> 00:38:44,767 Speaker 6: that will get really sad and about this and get 800 00:38:44,767 --> 00:38:46,167 Speaker 6: really hurt about this will be her. 801 00:38:46,447 --> 00:38:49,567 Speaker 2: My first line would be complain about him. 802 00:38:49,687 --> 00:38:51,327 Speaker 1: It's not always that simple. 803 00:38:52,007 --> 00:38:54,367 Speaker 4: If you want to hear what Holly m Vernam and 804 00:38:54,407 --> 00:38:57,167 Speaker 4: I thought and make up your own mind, we'll put 805 00:38:57,207 --> 00:38:59,207 Speaker 4: a link in the show notes you can listen to that. 806 00:38:59,287 --> 00:38:59,727 Speaker 1: Right now. 807 00:39:00,127 --> 00:39:02,087 Speaker 2: That is all we have time for on this Monday, 808 00:39:02,127 --> 00:39:04,327 Speaker 2: my friends. A big thank you to all of the 809 00:39:04,367 --> 00:39:07,047 Speaker 2: out louders for listening to our show and supporting it. 810 00:39:07,407 --> 00:39:10,447 Speaker 2: Tell your friends, share it all that we're having the 811 00:39:10,487 --> 00:39:13,047 Speaker 2: best conversations here on out loud, and thank you for 812 00:39:13,087 --> 00:39:15,207 Speaker 2: our team for helping us put together today's show. We'll 813 00:39:15,207 --> 00:39:16,687 Speaker 2: be back in your ears tomorrow. 814 00:39:16,727 --> 00:39:18,767 Speaker 1: Good Bye, bye bye. 815 00:39:19,327 --> 00:39:22,167 Speaker 2: Shout out to any MoMA Mia subscribers listening. If you 816 00:39:22,367 --> 00:39:25,207 Speaker 2: love the show and you want to support us, subscribing 817 00:39:25,247 --> 00:39:27,687 Speaker 2: to Momma Mia is the very best way to do it. 818 00:39:27,847 --> 00:39:29,727 Speaker 2: There's a link in the episode description