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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mama Mia acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waterers. This podcast was

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Speaker 1: recorded on it's nine point thirty PM on a Thursday

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Speaker 1: night in July nineteen ninety four, and Martin and Roz

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Speaker 1: have just settled in at home after closing up their

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Speaker 1: news agency in suburban Adelaide. The phone rings. Ros answers

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Speaker 1: and is immediately met by an agitated voice. It's Jeff,

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Speaker 1: her daughter's husband of three months, and he's dead. He

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Speaker 1: tells her. Don't you say that to me? Don't you

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Speaker 1: say that to me? She replies. By the time Martin

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Speaker 1: runs into the room, his wife is slumped on the

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Speaker 1: floor in the fetal positions, screaming. He grabs the phone,

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Speaker 1: but Jeff isn't making sense. The couple are in Brunei

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Speaker 1: in Southeast Asia. They're in the process of moving over

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Speaker 1: there for work, but Anthea was supposed to be coming

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Speaker 1: home to Adelaide tomorrow to finish up work at a

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Speaker 1: local school before making the move. Permanently killed in a

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Speaker 1: burglary gone wrong, Her family is told they've given very

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Speaker 1: little information about the circumstances surrounding her death. Forced to

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Speaker 1: say goodbye to her in the same church she said

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Speaker 1: her vows only a few months prior, but four years

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Speaker 1: later they discover information from the night she died that

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Speaker 1: rocks them to their core. All this time, the police

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Speaker 1: had a name an official suspect in the murder of

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Speaker 1: Anthea Bradshaw. I'm Jemma Bass and this is True Crime

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Speaker 1: Conversations a Muma mea podcast exploring the world's most notorious

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Speaker 1: crimes by speaking to the people who know the most

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Speaker 1: about them. The body of twenty six year old Anthea

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Speaker 1: Bradshaw was found on the floor of the apartment her

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Speaker 1: husband Jeff Hall, was living in in Brunei. South Australian

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Speaker 1: police believe there is enough evidence in this case to arrest, charge,

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Speaker 1: and potentially convict someone, but Brunei doesn't agree, despite numerous

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Speaker 1: attempts by our authorities to make that happen. In twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty four nine, senior reporter Ben Avery has been reinvestigating

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Speaker 1: this case and he's determined to help put her killer

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Speaker 1: behind bars. He's spoken at length to Anthea's family, friends,

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Speaker 1: and the Australian police involved in the case in a

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Speaker 1: new podcast called The Anthea Bradshaw mystery, Ben joins us.

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Speaker 2: Now, Ben, you've been looking back into Anthea Bradshaw's story,

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Speaker 2: how has it felt talking to her friends and parents

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Speaker 2: and brothers and really getting deep into her life.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I think it was about ten years ago that

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Speaker 3: Craig Bradshaw, that's Anthea's eldest brother, contacted me in the

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Speaker 3: nine News Adelaide news room and I was shocked at

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Speaker 3: the time that I hadn't heard about this case. It

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Speaker 3: was an innocent South Australian school teacher who went overseas

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Speaker 3: to Brunei three months after her wedding and never came home,

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Speaker 3: and there really hadn't been a lot of coverage about it.

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Speaker 3: And I could tell in Craig's voice that a lot

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Speaker 3: of years may have passed, but he was still deeply

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Speaker 3: upset and frustrated by not only the fact that he'd

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Speaker 3: lost his sister, but also justice hadn't been served in

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Speaker 3: a case that seemed somewhat solvable. And so I got

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Speaker 3: to know Craig quite well. I've got to know the

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Speaker 3: rest of the family quite well, and it's very clear

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Speaker 3: to me that they're consumed by this case and that

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Speaker 3: they won't rest until it is solved. And so a

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Speaker 3: lot of people will say to them, and they get

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Speaker 3: frustrated by people saying to them that you should just

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Speaker 3: move on, and they just say, look, we don't want

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Speaker 3: to move on, and we can't move on. And so

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Speaker 3: here we are, thirty years later, still talking about it,

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Speaker 3: perhaps no closer to the answers that they need.

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Speaker 1: This case was nineteen ninety four. Why do you think

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Speaker 1: it didn't get as much media coverage back then?

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Speaker 3: I guess back then things were a lot different. I

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Speaker 3: feel like if it happened now, there would be a

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Speaker 3: lot of coverage about it. Obviously, traveling overseas as a

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Speaker 3: journalist perhaps didn't happen as often back then. Getting information

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Speaker 3: from overseas was a lot more difficult too, Getting vision

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Speaker 3: and pictures from overseas was tricky. And so I went

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Speaker 3: through the archives here at Channel nine. I did find

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Speaker 3: one story from nineteen ninety four that provided some information

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Speaker 3: about what had happened. But obviously, these days, this is

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Speaker 3: something that would be covered at length, day in day out,

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Speaker 3: perhaps for a good couple of weeks, if not longer.

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Speaker 3: And so a very unique situation here where a horrible

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Speaker 3: murder of a much loved, innocent South Australia went almost

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Speaker 3: unnoticed for a very long time.

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Speaker 1: You said that Craig got in contact with you ten

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Speaker 1: years ago. That's a long time to be sitting on

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Speaker 1: this story, to be thinking about it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean I have done stories in those

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Speaker 3: ten years from time to time. Obviously there's been quite

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Speaker 3: a few developments since then, but nothing that has got

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Speaker 3: them to the point that they want. For me, it's

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Speaker 3: been a ten year journey, but for the Bradshaw's obviously

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Speaker 3: it's been a thirty year journey. And he tells me

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Speaker 3: how they got to ten years after the murder and thought,

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Speaker 3: we can't believe that it's been ten years and there's

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Speaker 3: still nothing. Surely we won't get to the point where

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Speaker 3: it's twenty years and there's nothing. And then they get

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Speaker 3: to twenty years and think, surely we won't have to

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Speaker 3: go another ten years without getting the justice that we need.

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Speaker 3: And now we're at the thirty year point and they

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Speaker 3: can't even comprehend the fact that they're still living with

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Speaker 3: this and that potentially another ten years will pass and

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Speaker 3: will be still here.

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Speaker 1: Can you take us back to Anthea's childhood. She had

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Speaker 1: two brothers, two loving parents. How does her family describe her.

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Speaker 1: What are their memories of her as a little girl

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Speaker 1: and as a young woman.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so, her mum Rosalind says she was born in

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Speaker 3: the Kapunda Hospital or a country hospital a few hours

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Speaker 3: from Adelaide. She was the only baby in the birthing

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Speaker 3: ward at the time and so she was immediately the

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Speaker 3: center of attention and really that didn't change because she

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Speaker 3: was the only daughter in the family. She was bubbly,

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Speaker 3: she talked a lot, She liked to sing, and her

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Speaker 3: mum has given me a cassette tape that she's never

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Speaker 3: listened to. She can't bring herself to listen to it,

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Speaker 3: but it's Anthea singing a song Morning Has Broken and

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Speaker 3: such a sweet, innocent young voice, and we play that

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Speaker 3: on the podcast. And then grew up being the middle child,

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Speaker 3: so she was a big sister to her younger brother Paul,

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Speaker 3: and Paul says that she really looked after him. She

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Speaker 3: always loved children. She helped him a lot growing up

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Speaker 3: and that developed, I guess into her growing up to

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Speaker 3: ultimately wanting to be a teacher. Her mum was a

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Speaker 3: registered nurse, so there was a period where she thought

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Speaker 3: she might want to be a registered nurse, but there

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Speaker 3: was her love of kids that took her into teaching,

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Speaker 3: and she ended up working at a school for underprivileged

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Speaker 3: children in murray Bridge, about an hour out of Adelaide.

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Speaker 3: It was called the Fraser Park Primary School. And I'm

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Speaker 3: told by her brother Craig that these were kids who

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Speaker 3: didn't have much support at home for the most part,

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Speaker 3: and so they wouldn't get birthday cakes on their birthdays.

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Speaker 3: And so Anthea went right through the list of her children,

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Speaker 3: found out when their birthdays were and would make a

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Speaker 3: birthday cake for them on their birthday. And Craig got

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Speaker 3: quite emotional when he told me that story, but it

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Speaker 3: just really highlighted how caring she was and how she

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Speaker 3: went to those extra lengths and did a lot for

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Speaker 3: those children.

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Speaker 1: She sounds like miss Honey, remember that childhood character.

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Speaker 3: A beautiful soul, absolutely And if you look at photographs

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Speaker 3: of Anthea, and I've been shown a lot of them

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Speaker 3: and home videos, always smiling, and I've never heard anyone

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Speaker 3: say a bad word about her. She was just this

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Speaker 3: really gentle, friendly soul who seemed to get along with everyone.

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Speaker 1: Her husband, the man she ended up marrying, they got

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Speaker 1: together quite young didn't they can you talk us through

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Speaker 1: their relationship.

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Speaker 3: It was year ten at school though in the same

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Speaker 3: year at Pembroke College, a private school here in the

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Speaker 3: eastern suburbs of Adelaide, And it started out as a friendship,

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Speaker 3: I'm told, or certainly they were telling people it was

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Speaker 3: a friendship, and they spend a lot of time together.

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Speaker 3: Jeff would be around at the Bradshaw family home a

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Speaker 3: lot of the time, and he was welcomed with open arms.

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Speaker 3: The brothers Craig and Paul got along with him really well.

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Speaker 3: They became mates, the three of them, and it was

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Speaker 3: a relationship that continued right through high school into obviously,

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Speaker 3: you know, their late teenage years early twenties. And the

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Speaker 3: family says that it was always a really good relationship

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Speaker 3: that they got along well. They didn't see any signs

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Speaker 3: of tension. Maybe the odd argument here and there, but

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Speaker 3: definitely and if you look at the photographs and the

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Speaker 3: home videos, to me, it just looked like he was

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Speaker 3: really welcomed and he was part of that Bradshaw extended family.

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Speaker 1: I guess that makes this case quite unique in that

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Speaker 1: the family did know Jeff so intimately because he basically

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Speaker 1: grew up alongside.

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Speaker 3: Them absolutely, and they all make a point of saying

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Speaker 3: that that this wasn't one of those situations where it's

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Speaker 3: a son in law and a brother in law that

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Speaker 3: sort of comes in and is a little bit on

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Speaker 3: the outside. He was embraced totally, and the brothers say

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Speaker 3: they can't even remember him coming into their lives. It's

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Speaker 3: like he was just always there, almost an extension of

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Speaker 3: the family. And that's what makes this case, I think

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Speaker 3: so shocking, is to know some of the allegations and

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Speaker 3: the suspicions and the fact now that there is this

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Speaker 3: wedge between the Bradshaws and Jeff Hall all of these

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Speaker 3: years later, and that's just a horrible thing to lose

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Speaker 3: your sister or your daughter, but then also have that

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Speaker 3: shadow in the background.

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Speaker 1: So in their twenties, Jeff and Anthea kind of traveled

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Speaker 1: the world together, did all of those early twenty backpacker

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Speaker 1: kind of things. And then they got married in nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety four. What does her family remember of that day?

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Speaker 1: Was it a great wedding day for the couple?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they find that hard to talk about now. And

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Speaker 3: I have watched the wedding video and it did look

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Speaker 3: like a beautiful day, a really typical Adelaide wedding Tusmore

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Speaker 3: Park Uniting Church in the eastern suburbs of Adelaide. Anthea

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Speaker 3: arrives in a ford falcon Saedan gets out of the

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Speaker 3: car and her dad approaches and takes her by the arm.

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Speaker 3: She has her two bridesmaids in front of her. They

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Speaker 3: then walk into the church. You know, lots of smiling

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Speaker 3: friends and family. Her brothers were there, all of Jeff's

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Speaker 3: family were there. Anthea looked extremely happy, not a worry

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Speaker 3: in the world, as she always did, and it just

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Speaker 3: looked like your every day suburban wedding. I've also seen

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Speaker 3: video of the reception, and a typical reception as well,

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Speaker 3: lots of drinking and laughing. You see all of the speeches,

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Speaker 3: really funny speeches. Lots of people spoke. Anthea's eldest brother

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Speaker 3: was the MC for the wedding and he tells me

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Speaker 3: that it was the best wedding he'd ever been to,

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Speaker 3: and a few people have said that, and really difficult

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Speaker 3: to watch that now knowing what would happen only ninety

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Speaker 3: six days later.

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Speaker 1: It was what were the plans for after the wedding?

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Speaker 1: Because things happened quite quickly in that Jeff moved overseas

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Speaker 1: and Anthea was trying to wrap things up. What was

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Speaker 1: the plan there.

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Speaker 3: They had done a lot of travel and then they

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Speaker 3: get married and Jeff gets a job in Brunei, a

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Speaker 3: country on the island of Borney, an oil rich country

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Speaker 3: where there's a lot of money, and he gets a

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Speaker 3: job as a radiographer at a medical clinic that was

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Speaker 3: owned by the Brunei royal family at the time. It

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Speaker 3: was quite a lucrative position in that it paid reasonably

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Speaker 3: well and he was also put up in accommodation so

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Speaker 3: he didn't need to pay for his apartment. So he

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Speaker 3: went over there pretty soon after the wedding. Anthea, though,

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Speaker 3: was going to stay at home because she was still

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Speaker 3: teaching at the Fraser Park Primary School in murray Bridge,

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Speaker 3: and so she wanted to finish that teaching contract before

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Speaker 3: she would eventually move over to join him permanently. Now

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Speaker 3: there was then a decision though, that she would go

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Speaker 3: and visit in this period while Jeff was over there alone,

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Speaker 3: and so she organized to go over to Brunei for

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Speaker 3: ten days. She would obviously catch up with her husband

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Speaker 3: and socialize with him and his workmates, and she would

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Speaker 3: also want to look for jobs, so she would go

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Speaker 3: and visit other schools in Brunei to see if she

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Speaker 3: could organize a job for when she did move over permanently.

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Speaker 3: And so her mum and dad recall taking her to

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Speaker 3: the airport. She gets on the plane to fly over

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Speaker 3: for this visit, sadly not knowing that she would never

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Speaker 3: return home. And back then there were no mobile phones.

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Speaker 3: Communication was more difficult. There was no Facebook or email,

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Speaker 3: certainly not what they used anyway, and Anthea had told

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Speaker 3: her mum and dad, look, don't ring me while I'm

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Speaker 3: in Brunei because Jeff is worried about phone tapping. He

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Speaker 3: was worried that Brunei authorities listened to phone calls and

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Speaker 3: he told Anthea that before she went over as well,

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Speaker 3: so she didn't have much contact with him either while

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Speaker 3: he was there alone. And so Anthea's mum and dad

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Speaker 3: took this on board, although they do tell me now

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Speaker 3: that they would not have cared if Brunei authorities were

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Speaker 3: listening to their phone calls, because they would just ring

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Speaker 3: and say how are you going? Are you safe?

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Speaker 1: It's not exactly controversial, not controversial.

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Speaker 3: And that's something they think about a lot now about

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Speaker 3: why Jeff was worried about that and what it meant

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Speaker 3: was that Anthea had been there for nine days and

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Speaker 3: they hadn't had any contact with her in any form.

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Speaker 1: Then what happened to Anthea on July twenty one, nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety four, So this.

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Speaker 3: Was the day before she was to go home back

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Speaker 3: to South Australia. And I might tell you what happened

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Speaker 3: from Jeff's perspective because I've seen his full witness statement

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Speaker 3: and that can give us a bit of an idea

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Speaker 3: into how he says the day unfolded. They'd been out

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Speaker 3: for dinner the night before with some friends. They woke

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Speaker 3: up reasonably early. They had to go and visit a

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Speaker 3: school called the Jigsaw School, where Anthea was going to

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Speaker 3: talk to the school about a potential teaching job. So

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Speaker 3: they went there in the morning. They had that interview.

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Speaker 3: They get back to the apartment complex at Geredong Park,

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Speaker 3: which is not far from where Jeff works, at about

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Speaker 3: eleven o'clock in the morning. Jeff has a shower, they

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Speaker 3: have something to eat, both of them. Again, this is

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Speaker 3: Jeff's story from his witness statement, and then his shift

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Speaker 3: was beginning at the Geredong Park Sports Medicine Center at

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Speaker 3: midday that day. He had a car there, a red

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Speaker 3: Toyota Salika, and Anthea was going to drive him to work.

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Speaker 3: And so shortly before midday they get in the car,

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Speaker 3: they make the very short journey to Geredong Park Sports

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Speaker 3: Medicine Center. Anthea drops Jeff off, he goes to work,

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Speaker 3: she goes back to the apartment complex. Now, Jeff says

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Speaker 3: that he was at work for all of that day

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Speaker 3: in terms of from midday until five pm, and then

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Speaker 3: he goes out for his dinner break, and the plan

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Speaker 3: was that Anthea would come and pick him up from

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Speaker 3: the medical center for that dinner break. So he's standing

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Speaker 3: out the front of the medical center along with a

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Speaker 3: few other people as they were either lead for the

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Speaker 3: day or leaving for dinner, and he's waiting for Anthea.

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Speaker 3: And I've spoken to lots of witnesses and I've seen

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Speaker 3: lots of witness statements. People that saw Jeff standing there

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Speaker 3: and they went to him and said, would you like

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Speaker 3: a rite home, because a lot of them lived in

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Speaker 3: the same apartment complex or nearby, and Jeff was repeatedly

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Speaker 3: saying no, No, Anthea is coming to pick me up.

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Speaker 3: She shouldn't be too long, and this happened, as I say,

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Speaker 3: with several witnesses I've spoken to. However, as time went

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Speaker 3: on and I think, you know, maybe ten to fifteen

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Speaker 3: minutes past. Jeff then made a phone call to one

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Speaker 3: of his colleagues, a woman named Peter, who lived in

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Speaker 3: the apartment complex, and Peter said, yeah, look, the car

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Speaker 3: is still here, so I will try and ring, and

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Speaker 3: I think she made a phone call to the apartment complex.

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Speaker 3: Nobody answered, so Peter went and picked up Jeff from

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Speaker 3: the medical center. Then Peter says that Jeff was worried

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Speaker 3: about where Anthea was, and they made a decision to

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Speaker 3: drive around where she may have gone walking or running

301
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Speaker 3: because she'd been doing that while she was in Brunei.

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Speaker 3: There was no sign of Anthea, so a short time

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Speaker 3: later they returned to the apartment complex. Peter and Jeff

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00:17:21,662 --> 00:17:23,822
Speaker 3: get out of the car. Peter says, she heads to

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Speaker 3: her apartment and says, I'll see you again soon. Jeff

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Speaker 3: goes to his apartment, which is on the third floor.

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Speaker 3: He opens the door and Anthea is in a pool

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Speaker 3: of blood and it is clear that her body's cold

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Speaker 3: and that she's dead, and he screams out to Peter,

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Speaker 3: because Peter's a nurse. Peter comes up sadly. It's clear

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Speaker 3: that there's nothing anyone can do by that point, and

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Speaker 3: really that's where this mystery begins.

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Speaker 1: Because she'd been quite brutally murdered, hadn't she.

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Speaker 3: So the post mortem would find that she had been

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Speaker 3: strangled to death, and then after she was already dead,

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Speaker 3: she was stabbed multiple times, and it has never been

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Speaker 3: explained why the killer stabbed her lifeless body.

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Speaker 1: Was there any other evidence in the apartment in the room,

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Speaker 1: was there anything else out of place?

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Speaker 3: Some furniture had been displaced in the bedroom, so the

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Speaker 3: bed that Anthea and Jeff slept in had been moved,

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Speaker 3: and a chair in that room had also been knocked over.

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Speaker 3: Now that has been explained by Jeff very early on

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Speaker 3: in his original witness statement. He says when he found

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Speaker 3: his wife's body, he went into the bedroom and kicked

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Speaker 3: the bed and kicked the chair out of frustration. So

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Speaker 3: that's how he explains that. There are also photographs that

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Speaker 3: show a bloodstained knife, which was presumably the murder weapon,

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Speaker 3: near the front door, so the killer had discarded the

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Speaker 3: knife right near the front door on the way out

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Speaker 3: is what we can take out of that. Another thing

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Speaker 3: to note about that knife is that people I've spoken

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Speaker 3: to from the other apartments say it appears to be

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00:19:09,822 --> 00:19:13,902
Speaker 3: the standard issue knife for all of the apartments, which

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Speaker 3: indicates that perhaps, and this hasn't been confirmed, that perhaps

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00:19:17,542 --> 00:19:21,702
Speaker 3: that knife came from Jeff's kitchen. There was also an

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00:19:21,702 --> 00:19:24,222
Speaker 3: ironing board out, and there was a business shirt draped

338
00:19:24,262 --> 00:19:27,582
Speaker 3: over the ironing board. The iron was plugged in and

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00:19:27,622 --> 00:19:32,222
Speaker 3: it was still switched on, so it appeared that someone

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Speaker 3: had been ironing a shirt and for whatever reason, stopped

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00:19:35,102 --> 00:19:39,142
Speaker 3: abruptly there. I guess the key pieces of evidence from

342
00:19:39,542 --> 00:19:43,782
Speaker 3: inside the apartment. Piecing it all together is difficult. I

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00:19:43,822 --> 00:19:45,742
Speaker 3: guess it can tell a story whatever way you look

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00:19:45,782 --> 00:19:48,702
Speaker 3: at it, but this would form part of that initial

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Speaker 3: Brunei police investigation.

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Speaker 1: How did the Bradshaws find out about this all happening?

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Speaker 3: So it was a Thursday evening, Adelaide time, nine point

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Speaker 3: thirty pm on the twenty first of July nineteen ninety four.

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Speaker 3: The Bradshaws owned a news agency in the eastern suburbs

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Speaker 3: of Adelaide. They just got home from late night shopping

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Speaker 3: and Martin Bradshaw had got on upstairs to watch the

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Speaker 3: Channel nine AFL football show. That's how he remembers the time,

353
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Speaker 3: because he said that the show was just starting and

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Speaker 3: the phone rang and he said he could hear Roz

355
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Speaker 3: answering the phone. Roz says that she picked up the

356
00:20:24,542 --> 00:20:27,862
Speaker 3: phone and it was Jeff and he didn't say hello,

357
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Speaker 3: he just said and he's dead. And she doesn't remember

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Speaker 3: much from that point apart from saying, don't say that

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Speaker 3: to me. Don't say that to me. Martin says he

360
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Speaker 3: heard this commotion, he went downstairs and by this point

361
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Speaker 3: Roz was curled up in the fetal position. He took

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Speaker 3: the phone, and he says that Jeff was that hysterical

363
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Speaker 3: he could barely understand what he was saying. So he

364
00:20:50,022 --> 00:20:53,062
Speaker 3: was asking for someone else to take over the phone call,

365
00:20:53,182 --> 00:20:55,862
Speaker 3: you know, put someone else on the phone, and eventually,

366
00:20:55,942 --> 00:20:58,062
Speaker 3: and he doesn't know who it was, but eventually someone

367
00:20:58,182 --> 00:21:02,582
Speaker 3: told him that his daughter had been murdered. And then

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Speaker 3: he says, Martin says that he thought that he was

369
00:21:06,942 --> 00:21:09,182
Speaker 3: the calm one in the room, rose obviously in the

370
00:21:09,182 --> 00:21:12,622
Speaker 3: fetal position, but he looked down and realized that he

371
00:21:12,702 --> 00:21:16,542
Speaker 3: had urinated in his trousers after hearing that news.

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Speaker 1: What about the brothers, You've spoken to them about finding

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Speaker 1: out as well, And they also had their own stories.

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Speaker 3: Craig Bradshaw was living in a sharehouse. He was working

375
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Speaker 3: in radio on commercial radio, and that evening he had

376
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Speaker 3: to go to bed early because he had an early

377
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Speaker 3: start the next day. His friends had all gone to

378
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Speaker 3: the pub. The people that he was living with went

379
00:21:38,622 --> 00:21:41,422
Speaker 3: to the pub. But then at around nine point thirty

380
00:21:41,502 --> 00:21:44,422
Speaker 3: or a little bit after, one of his friends came

381
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Speaker 3: and woke him up in the bedroom and said, Craig,

382
00:21:48,222 --> 00:21:51,262
Speaker 3: you need to go home. Presumably he had somehow found

383
00:21:51,302 --> 00:21:55,062
Speaker 3: out from Martin and Ross Craig's parents, and Craig hopped

384
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Speaker 3: in his car. He didn't know what was going on.

385
00:21:56,702 --> 00:21:59,742
Speaker 3: His friend didn't tell him, and so he had that

386
00:21:59,982 --> 00:22:02,902
Speaker 3: painful drive to his mum and dad's house, and he

387
00:22:02,942 --> 00:22:06,182
Speaker 3: said the moment he arrived, he approached the front door

388
00:22:06,262 --> 00:22:10,262
Speaker 3: and he could hear his mum howling, absolutely howling inside

389
00:22:10,262 --> 00:22:15,342
Speaker 3: the house. And went in and again he was given

390
00:22:15,342 --> 00:22:18,262
Speaker 3: a phone and it was Jeff, and Jeff said that

391
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Speaker 3: Annie had been murdered, and Craig then had to try

392
00:22:22,342 --> 00:22:24,622
Speaker 3: and get his head around that, and obviously couldn't get

393
00:22:24,742 --> 00:22:28,102
Speaker 3: his head around that, because why would anyone murder her?

394
00:22:28,102 --> 00:22:30,782
Speaker 3: It was a relatively safe country. She'd been there for

395
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Speaker 3: nine days, she didn't know anyone apart from Jeff and

396
00:22:33,302 --> 00:22:36,302
Speaker 3: perhaps some of his other colleagues who she would have

397
00:22:36,342 --> 00:22:40,102
Speaker 3: only just been introduced to, So almost an impossible thing

398
00:22:40,142 --> 00:22:44,382
Speaker 3: to fathom for Craig Bradshaw. And he says that he

399
00:22:44,422 --> 00:22:46,942
Speaker 3: then tried to get hold of his other brother, Paul,

400
00:22:47,982 --> 00:22:50,702
Speaker 3: and he was out at the pub that night, and obviously,

401
00:22:50,742 --> 00:22:53,022
Speaker 3: again mobile phones weren't a thing, so they struggled to

402
00:22:53,022 --> 00:22:55,462
Speaker 3: get hold of him. Paul was still living at home

403
00:22:55,622 --> 00:22:58,262
Speaker 3: and late that night he came home in his car

404
00:22:59,022 --> 00:23:02,222
Speaker 3: and he saw all of the cars in the front yard.

405
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Speaker 3: So by then, I guess a lot of the extended

406
00:23:04,662 --> 00:23:07,622
Speaker 3: family had arrived at the house, and he just looked

407
00:23:07,662 --> 00:23:10,382
Speaker 3: and thought, what is going on here? And he said

408
00:23:10,542 --> 00:23:13,782
Speaker 3: that he was that concerned and confused that he actually

409
00:23:14,062 --> 00:23:16,302
Speaker 3: didn't go into the house. He drove up and parked

410
00:23:16,302 --> 00:23:19,342
Speaker 3: on the side of the road for an hour, just

411
00:23:19,382 --> 00:23:21,902
Speaker 3: sat there. Perhaps he knew at that point that his

412
00:23:22,022 --> 00:23:24,342
Speaker 3: life was about to change, and that if he could

413
00:23:24,342 --> 00:23:27,062
Speaker 3: have another hour without knowing then he would take that.

414
00:23:27,702 --> 00:23:29,942
Speaker 3: But eventually he went into the house, and he says

415
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Speaker 3: that he thinks it was his auntie who told him

416
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Speaker 3: what had happened.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to true crime Conversations with me, Jemma Bass.

418
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Speaker 1: I'm speaking with Ben Avery about the murder of Anthea Bradshaw.

419
00:23:46,982 --> 00:23:49,862
Speaker 1: Up next, we find out how far the Bradshaw family

420
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Speaker 1: will go in their fight for justice. What did the

421
00:23:59,262 --> 00:24:02,862
Speaker 1: next few days and weeks look like. Obviously in Brunei,

422
00:24:02,902 --> 00:24:06,062
Speaker 1: we've got police investigating Jeff still over there. Does her

423
00:24:06,142 --> 00:24:09,302
Speaker 1: family get on a plane, how do they get Anthea's

424
00:24:09,302 --> 00:24:10,262
Speaker 1: body back? What does that?

425
00:24:11,382 --> 00:24:13,782
Speaker 3: So there are a lot of discussions around that. Craig

426
00:24:14,422 --> 00:24:17,582
Speaker 3: spoke with various members of his family about whether he

427
00:24:17,622 --> 00:24:21,902
Speaker 3: should go over to be there with Jeff and to

428
00:24:21,982 --> 00:24:25,102
Speaker 3: talk to the police about what's happened here. I think

429
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Speaker 3: one of his aunties offered to pay the cost of

430
00:24:27,742 --> 00:24:30,262
Speaker 3: him to fly over and to stay over there for

431
00:24:30,302 --> 00:24:33,382
Speaker 3: a period of time, but Craig says that he was

432
00:24:33,462 --> 00:24:36,982
Speaker 3: talked out of doing that by various people, including Jeff,

433
00:24:37,462 --> 00:24:41,702
Speaker 3: that Jeff had said, there's nothing you can do. Leave

434
00:24:41,742 --> 00:24:45,022
Speaker 3: it with me, essentially, and so no member of the

435
00:24:45,022 --> 00:24:47,822
Speaker 3: Bradshaw family went to Brunei and that's something that they

436
00:24:47,902 --> 00:24:52,862
Speaker 3: regret to this day. Instead, Jeff Hall's father went over

437
00:24:53,182 --> 00:24:58,662
Speaker 3: and Jeff Hawlls best mate went over together. And I

438
00:24:58,742 --> 00:25:01,502
Speaker 3: think what the Bradshaws perhaps didn't know at that time,

439
00:25:01,942 --> 00:25:04,542
Speaker 3: well I'm almost certain they didn't know at the time

440
00:25:05,622 --> 00:25:08,222
Speaker 3: was that Jeff was being treated as a suspect by

441
00:25:08,262 --> 00:25:12,422
Speaker 3: the Brunei police. He was actually in custody. I was

442
00:25:12,462 --> 00:25:16,342
Speaker 3: told by one of Jeff's colleagues in the podcast that

443
00:25:17,342 --> 00:25:19,502
Speaker 3: he had been held for questioning and that they went

444
00:25:19,542 --> 00:25:23,502
Speaker 3: and visited him and he was behind bars. So he

445
00:25:23,622 --> 00:25:25,982
Speaker 3: was in some form of custody at that point, and

446
00:25:26,022 --> 00:25:29,622
Speaker 3: he was beside himself. He was crying and saying that

447
00:25:29,662 --> 00:25:32,982
Speaker 3: he was innocent. Again, these are all things that the

448
00:25:33,022 --> 00:25:35,982
Speaker 3: Bradshaw family weren't aware of at the time, and they

449
00:25:36,022 --> 00:25:39,462
Speaker 3: really do wish that that had some representation I guess

450
00:25:39,502 --> 00:25:43,022
Speaker 3: as a family over there in those initial days.

451
00:25:44,142 --> 00:25:47,222
Speaker 1: We'll get to this, but they didn't find that information

452
00:25:47,302 --> 00:25:49,622
Speaker 1: out for another four or so years. So what did

453
00:25:49,702 --> 00:25:54,262
Speaker 1: they believe had happened to Anthea in that timeframe, Well,

454
00:25:54,302 --> 00:25:54,942
Speaker 1: there hadn't.

455
00:25:54,742 --> 00:25:56,382
Speaker 3: Been a lot of information, it has to be said.

456
00:25:56,422 --> 00:26:00,942
Speaker 3: In those early months and years. There was a theory though,

457
00:26:00,982 --> 00:26:04,142
Speaker 3: that had been prominent to my understanding, and that is

458
00:26:04,182 --> 00:26:07,062
Speaker 3: that there was an unknown man spotted outside of the

459
00:26:07,102 --> 00:26:11,862
Speaker 3: apartment complex who no one recognized. And when I say

460
00:26:11,942 --> 00:26:14,502
Speaker 3: no one, there was only one person I'm aware of

461
00:26:14,542 --> 00:26:17,262
Speaker 3: who saw that man, and I've spoken to her and

462
00:26:17,302 --> 00:26:22,142
Speaker 3: she's described him as being of Thai or Vietnamese descent,

463
00:26:22,782 --> 00:26:25,022
Speaker 3: that he had a cap, and that cap was pulled

464
00:26:25,022 --> 00:26:27,262
Speaker 3: down over his face to the extent that she couldn't

465
00:26:27,342 --> 00:26:31,902
Speaker 3: really make out any distinguishing features. And this was looked

466
00:26:31,942 --> 00:26:34,382
Speaker 3: at thoroughly by the Brunei police. They did a photo

467
00:26:34,462 --> 00:26:37,622
Speaker 3: fit of this man, even though the woman who spotted

468
00:26:37,702 --> 00:26:40,382
Speaker 3: him says that that was pretty pointless because she didn't

469
00:26:40,382 --> 00:26:44,502
Speaker 3: know what he looked like anyway. And news would filter

470
00:26:44,582 --> 00:26:47,222
Speaker 3: back to the Bradshaw's that there was this theory of

471
00:26:47,542 --> 00:26:52,022
Speaker 3: an itinerant worker, a tie worker perhaps, who may have

472
00:26:52,102 --> 00:26:55,662
Speaker 3: worked in maintenance on the apartment complex, or who may

473
00:26:55,702 --> 00:26:58,382
Speaker 3: have worked on a nearby construction site and may have

474
00:26:58,422 --> 00:27:02,662
Speaker 3: gone up to that third floor apartment and killed Anthea,

475
00:27:02,702 --> 00:27:08,062
Speaker 3: And they, to an extent, I guess, accepted that they

476
00:27:08,142 --> 00:27:13,222
Speaker 3: accepted that perhaps this was an unfortunate random killing.

477
00:27:14,262 --> 00:27:17,222
Speaker 1: How did they find out that jeff had been a suspect?

478
00:27:18,142 --> 00:27:20,542
Speaker 3: So it was four years later, in nineteen ninety eight,

479
00:27:21,262 --> 00:27:25,422
Speaker 3: that the coroner released its findings to the Bradshaw family

480
00:27:25,902 --> 00:27:28,342
Speaker 3: and so they got a letter in the mail and

481
00:27:28,462 --> 00:27:31,702
Speaker 3: Rosalind tells me about the moment that she opened that letter.

482
00:27:31,822 --> 00:27:35,822
Speaker 3: It was a very short report, only a few pages long,

483
00:27:35,902 --> 00:27:39,742
Speaker 3: but at the end it said that the only apparent

484
00:27:39,822 --> 00:27:43,622
Speaker 3: suspect in the case appears to be the deceased husband,

485
00:27:44,022 --> 00:27:48,262
Speaker 3: one Jeffrey John Hall. However, the finding also said police

486
00:27:48,262 --> 00:27:52,182
Speaker 3: investigations could not find any evidence to justify any charge

487
00:27:52,222 --> 00:27:53,182
Speaker 3: against him.

488
00:27:53,622 --> 00:27:54,742
Speaker 1: How did they react to that?

489
00:27:55,342 --> 00:27:58,462
Speaker 3: Rose couldn't believe it. She just hadn't even given thought

490
00:27:58,502 --> 00:28:00,702
Speaker 3: to that in those four years, none of them had,

491
00:28:01,342 --> 00:28:05,462
Speaker 3: and so she was shocked, absolutely shocked. And she says

492
00:28:05,502 --> 00:28:08,622
Speaker 3: that that was the moment she started to wonder whether

493
00:28:08,742 --> 00:28:10,742
Speaker 3: her son in law had some questions to answer.

494
00:28:11,782 --> 00:28:13,742
Speaker 1: What did they do? Well, what can they do? It's

495
00:28:13,782 --> 00:28:17,422
Speaker 1: four years later. Do they contact Brunei police, do they

496
00:28:17,422 --> 00:28:19,462
Speaker 1: go to Australian police? What are their next moves?

497
00:28:20,822 --> 00:28:23,342
Speaker 3: So then Rod starts to think where she can go

498
00:28:23,422 --> 00:28:27,502
Speaker 3: from here? And I'm not entirely sure how the South

499
00:28:27,542 --> 00:28:30,862
Speaker 3: Australian Police became involved. I know that they were contacted

500
00:28:30,902 --> 00:28:33,502
Speaker 3: in the early days of the Brunei police investigation, so

501
00:28:33,582 --> 00:28:39,102
Speaker 3: that had some involvement. And then following this revelation in

502
00:28:39,182 --> 00:28:42,902
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety eight, there is some communication between Essay Police

503
00:28:42,902 --> 00:28:46,302
Speaker 3: and the Bradshaw family and a detective with the South

504
00:28:46,342 --> 00:28:52,142
Speaker 3: Australian Major Crime Branch, Detective Brenton Rownie, begins looking at

505
00:28:52,142 --> 00:28:56,982
Speaker 3: the case. There's no jurisdiction obviously for South Australian Police

506
00:28:57,102 --> 00:29:01,622
Speaker 3: in Brunei, but that doesn't stop them from making their

507
00:29:01,662 --> 00:29:06,102
Speaker 3: own inquiries. And so that started to begin and really

508
00:29:06,222 --> 00:29:09,822
Speaker 3: ramp up in the early two thousands, led primarily initially

509
00:29:09,942 --> 00:29:11,502
Speaker 3: by Detective Rownie.

510
00:29:12,142 --> 00:29:16,502
Speaker 1: Well, Brunei actually allows one of these police officers to

511
00:29:16,582 --> 00:29:19,342
Speaker 1: go over and review the case in person. That's quite unusual,

512
00:29:19,382 --> 00:29:20,222
Speaker 1: isn't it.

513
00:29:20,222 --> 00:29:22,542
Speaker 3: It is extremely unusual, and the reason that that came

514
00:29:22,582 --> 00:29:26,982
Speaker 3: about was almost pure chance. So Brenton Rownie's looking at

515
00:29:27,022 --> 00:29:30,222
Speaker 3: all of this information, He's starting to see that it

516
00:29:30,342 --> 00:29:33,982
Speaker 3: warrants further investigation and that perhaps the case needs some

517
00:29:34,022 --> 00:29:36,822
Speaker 3: more expertise that the Brunei police may not have had.

518
00:29:37,822 --> 00:29:42,422
Speaker 3: And as I say, by chance the Brunei authorities were

519
00:29:42,422 --> 00:29:45,542
Speaker 3: coming to Adelaide, or some of them were coming to Adelaide.

520
00:29:45,862 --> 00:29:48,022
Speaker 3: You may have heard of the police tattoo that is

521
00:29:48,502 --> 00:29:50,742
Speaker 3: held around the world and police forces will come with

522
00:29:50,782 --> 00:29:53,742
Speaker 3: their police bans and things like that. Well that was

523
00:29:53,742 --> 00:29:58,542
Speaker 3: being held in Adelaide this year, and so the Royal

524
00:29:58,622 --> 00:30:03,182
Speaker 3: Brunei Police Force Band was coming and so as part

525
00:30:03,222 --> 00:30:06,622
Speaker 3: of that, Brenton Rownie organized for the South Australian Police

526
00:30:06,662 --> 00:30:09,622
Speaker 3: Commissioner at the time to meet with a high ranking

527
00:30:09,622 --> 00:30:12,102
Speaker 3: official from and they had a meeting when they were

528
00:30:12,102 --> 00:30:14,982
Speaker 3: here for the police tattoo, and as a result of

529
00:30:15,022 --> 00:30:18,222
Speaker 3: that meeting, Brunei said yes, look, we are prepared to

530
00:30:18,222 --> 00:30:21,902
Speaker 3: pay for the flights and accommodation of your detective to

531
00:30:22,022 --> 00:30:25,862
Speaker 3: come over to Brunei wow and conduct his own inquiries,

532
00:30:25,902 --> 00:30:29,182
Speaker 3: which was a real breakthrough for the Bradshaws and for

533
00:30:29,382 --> 00:30:32,342
Speaker 3: say police they could go over and for the first

534
00:30:32,422 --> 00:30:36,102
Speaker 3: time have a look at this for themselves in terms

535
00:30:36,102 --> 00:30:39,342
Speaker 3: of someone from South Australia at least, and so that happened.

536
00:30:39,382 --> 00:30:42,382
Speaker 3: It was in two thousand and four that Brenton Rownie

537
00:30:42,662 --> 00:30:47,382
Speaker 3: bordered a plane and headed over to the place where Anthea.

538
00:30:46,982 --> 00:30:50,662
Speaker 1: Lost her life, and what did he do when he

539
00:30:50,702 --> 00:30:54,142
Speaker 1: got there? He obviously was going to look into Jeff

540
00:30:54,302 --> 00:30:56,262
Speaker 1: being a potential suspect. Did he look at any other

541
00:30:56,302 --> 00:30:58,502
Speaker 1: possible theories? Was there anything else that came out of

542
00:30:58,582 --> 00:30:59,822
Speaker 1: him being on the ground.

543
00:31:00,902 --> 00:31:02,862
Speaker 3: He says he went into it with a very open

544
00:31:02,902 --> 00:31:06,462
Speaker 3: mind and so one of the things though, that became

545
00:31:06,582 --> 00:31:09,102
Speaker 3: clear when he got there, and one of the first

546
00:31:09,102 --> 00:31:11,662
Speaker 3: things that jumped out to him was that the Brunei

547
00:31:11,782 --> 00:31:16,622
Speaker 3: police were not very experienced dealing with murders, and he

548
00:31:16,662 --> 00:31:21,502
Speaker 3: says that's because murder was almost unheard of in that country. Now,

549
00:31:21,942 --> 00:31:26,022
Speaker 3: I've looked into this and there's one News Corp particle

550
00:31:26,102 --> 00:31:29,142
Speaker 3: here in Australia that said there'd been only three murders

551
00:31:29,902 --> 00:31:33,262
Speaker 3: in the decade preceding Anthea's death. I haven't been able

552
00:31:33,302 --> 00:31:36,822
Speaker 3: to confirm that because the stats from Brunei are very

553
00:31:36,862 --> 00:31:39,822
Speaker 3: patchy and unclear. Probably the best data I could get

554
00:31:40,062 --> 00:31:44,422
Speaker 3: was from the United Nations. Actually that showed between nineteen

555
00:31:44,462 --> 00:31:46,742
Speaker 3: ninety six and twenty thirteen, so this is a period

556
00:31:46,782 --> 00:31:49,302
Speaker 3: really after the murder, But probably the best data I

557
00:31:49,342 --> 00:31:53,662
Speaker 3: could get there were fifty four murders, an average of

558
00:31:53,702 --> 00:31:56,742
Speaker 3: around three per year for that period. Now it is

559
00:31:56,782 --> 00:31:59,942
Speaker 3: a small country, about around half a million people, but still,

560
00:32:00,622 --> 00:32:03,102
Speaker 3: even if you go off that data, it's fair to

561
00:32:03,142 --> 00:32:06,502
Speaker 3: say that murders were quite rare, and so the police

562
00:32:06,502 --> 00:32:09,542
Speaker 3: force over there wouldn't have had the same skills that

563
00:32:09,582 --> 00:32:13,022
Speaker 3: someone from South Eastutralia would have. Brenton Rownie would have

564
00:32:13,062 --> 00:32:16,182
Speaker 3: investigated other murders before. The major crime branch here in

565
00:32:16,222 --> 00:32:19,422
Speaker 3: South Australia handles a lot of murders and a lot

566
00:32:19,422 --> 00:32:23,022
Speaker 3: of cold cases too ongoing. So that's the first thing

567
00:32:23,022 --> 00:32:26,222
Speaker 3: that stood out to him. And he also learned for

568
00:32:26,262 --> 00:32:28,942
Speaker 3: the first time that Jeff had been held in some

569
00:32:28,982 --> 00:32:32,622
Speaker 3: form of custody after the murder, and he says that's

570
00:32:32,622 --> 00:32:36,622
Speaker 3: something that he didn't know previously, and obviously, as I've mentioned,

571
00:32:36,862 --> 00:32:40,702
Speaker 3: the Bradshaw family wasn't aware of either. He says that

572
00:32:40,742 --> 00:32:45,102
Speaker 3: the Brunei police were helpful to an extent. They provided

573
00:32:45,182 --> 00:32:48,062
Speaker 3: him with exhibits from the case, he was able to

574
00:32:48,742 --> 00:32:52,622
Speaker 3: visit Geredong Park where this murder took place, and he

575
00:32:52,742 --> 00:32:57,102
Speaker 3: ultimately returned home after four days with dozens of exhibits

576
00:32:57,102 --> 00:33:00,102
Speaker 3: that he was allowed to physically take back to South Australia.

577
00:33:01,582 --> 00:33:03,822
Speaker 1: Before we get further into that. I want to give

578
00:33:03,822 --> 00:33:07,022
Speaker 1: a bit more context about Brunei because you've said there

579
00:33:07,022 --> 00:33:09,462
Speaker 1: weren't many murders, so to speak, and it was a

580
00:33:09,502 --> 00:33:12,622
Speaker 1: relatively safe but it's actually a very strict country. It

581
00:33:12,662 --> 00:33:16,862
Speaker 1: has some extreme punishments, some very backwards laws. In our

582
00:33:16,982 --> 00:33:19,262
Speaker 1: Australian eyes, doesn't it very much.

583
00:33:19,302 --> 00:33:23,782
Speaker 3: So it's an Islamic country, very strict laws, as you say,

584
00:33:24,862 --> 00:33:29,262
Speaker 3: including punishment for homosexuality, and when it comes to murder,

585
00:33:30,342 --> 00:33:34,382
Speaker 3: the death penalty, So anyone convicted of murder can face

586
00:33:34,422 --> 00:33:39,142
Speaker 3: the death penalty. It isn't always enforced, but certainly murder

587
00:33:39,222 --> 00:33:43,022
Speaker 3: is punishable by death. And for this reason, because it

588
00:33:43,102 --> 00:33:46,222
Speaker 3: was so strict, crimes were very unusual. So I'm not

589
00:33:46,262 --> 00:33:51,742
Speaker 3: just talking about murders. I'm talking about break ins, robberies, thefts,

590
00:33:52,102 --> 00:33:56,582
Speaker 3: sexual assaults. It didn't happen very often for that reason.

591
00:33:57,582 --> 00:34:00,022
Speaker 3: Hence why a lot of people I've spoken to said

592
00:34:00,022 --> 00:34:02,422
Speaker 3: that this murder of Anthea Bradshaw was very out of

593
00:34:02,422 --> 00:34:02,862
Speaker 3: the box.

594
00:34:04,302 --> 00:34:09,982
Speaker 1: What did Rowney determine after investigating everything to do with this.

595
00:34:10,022 --> 00:34:14,222
Speaker 3: Case, He was firmly of the opinion that Jeff Hall

596
00:34:14,342 --> 00:34:18,062
Speaker 3: had questions to answer about the murder. He brought back

597
00:34:18,542 --> 00:34:21,062
Speaker 3: a lot of exhibits, some of them I've spoken about

598
00:34:21,102 --> 00:34:24,222
Speaker 3: those photos that showed the bed had been moved, the

599
00:34:24,302 --> 00:34:27,222
Speaker 3: chair had been kicked over, the blood stained knife. There

600
00:34:27,262 --> 00:34:31,182
Speaker 3: was also forensic evidence, though. He brought back a shirt

601
00:34:31,222 --> 00:34:33,862
Speaker 3: that Jeff Hall was wearing on the day of the murder,

602
00:34:34,342 --> 00:34:37,822
Speaker 3: and this would become a very important piece of evidence,

603
00:34:37,822 --> 00:34:41,062
Speaker 3: and that's because it was clear that there were blood

604
00:34:41,182 --> 00:34:45,662
Speaker 3: like stains on Jeff's shirt. Now, there would be various

605
00:34:45,702 --> 00:34:51,142
Speaker 3: forensic reports done that looked at that shirt, and a

606
00:34:51,262 --> 00:34:56,022
Speaker 3: DNA examination of the shirt found that the blood stains

607
00:34:56,142 --> 00:35:00,222
Speaker 3: on Antia's shirt weren't Jeff's blood, ruled out that it

608
00:35:00,262 --> 00:35:03,782
Speaker 3: was Jeff's blood, and one report from Singapore found that

609
00:35:03,822 --> 00:35:06,462
Speaker 3: there was only a one in fifteen chance that that

610
00:35:06,502 --> 00:35:09,702
Speaker 3: blood was anyone else's but anteis, So we can take

611
00:35:09,742 --> 00:35:12,582
Speaker 3: out of that there was a high likelihood without being

612
00:35:12,582 --> 00:35:16,542
Speaker 3: one hundred percent, that Jeff Hall had his wife's blood

613
00:35:16,622 --> 00:35:19,022
Speaker 3: on his shirt on the day of the murder. Now

614
00:35:19,182 --> 00:35:21,262
Speaker 3: that's obviously significant, But the other thing you need to

615
00:35:21,262 --> 00:35:23,702
Speaker 3: look at then is how did the blood get there,

616
00:35:24,422 --> 00:35:27,382
Speaker 3: Because he does say that he went and checked his

617
00:35:27,422 --> 00:35:29,662
Speaker 3: wife's body when he got back to the apartment and

618
00:35:29,662 --> 00:35:32,302
Speaker 3: saw her on the ground, so very possible it could

619
00:35:32,302 --> 00:35:35,822
Speaker 3: have happened then, and that's why you need to look

620
00:35:36,022 --> 00:35:39,342
Speaker 3: further into the evidence and further at those blood stains

621
00:35:39,382 --> 00:35:42,502
Speaker 3: and further at the crime scene to try and work out, okay, well,

622
00:35:42,902 --> 00:35:45,342
Speaker 3: how did he get that blood on his shirt. There

623
00:35:45,382 --> 00:35:48,542
Speaker 3: was a report done in the year or two after

624
00:35:48,622 --> 00:35:52,382
Speaker 3: the murder by a forensic scientist named doctor Henry C.

625
00:35:52,582 --> 00:35:56,542
Speaker 3: Lee from Connecticut. He worked for the Connecticut State Laboratory,

626
00:35:56,582 --> 00:35:59,742
Speaker 3: and he was very well known. He's worked on thousands

627
00:35:59,782 --> 00:36:03,342
Speaker 3: and thousands of cases. He worked on the OJ Simpson case,

628
00:36:03,342 --> 00:36:06,342
Speaker 3: he worked on the John Benet Ramsey case. And I

629
00:36:06,342 --> 00:36:08,902
Speaker 3: was only watching a Netflix documentary the other night called

630
00:36:08,902 --> 00:36:12,342
Speaker 3: The Staircase, and in it he was used by the defense.

631
00:36:12,942 --> 00:36:15,542
Speaker 3: So this was a well known forensic scientist. He looked

632
00:36:15,542 --> 00:36:19,182
Speaker 3: at the blood stains that was his speciality, and he

633
00:36:20,142 --> 00:36:25,102
Speaker 3: determined that there were what he called medium velocity blood stains,

634
00:36:25,142 --> 00:36:27,902
Speaker 3: which sounds very technical, but essentially what it means is

635
00:36:27,942 --> 00:36:32,782
Speaker 3: that there were microscopic droplets that appeared to have got

636
00:36:32,822 --> 00:36:36,142
Speaker 3: there after traveling through the air. So this wasn't a smear,

637
00:36:36,462 --> 00:36:39,462
Speaker 3: it wasn't a white that there had been some kind

638
00:36:39,502 --> 00:36:43,662
Speaker 3: of projected mechanism that got the blood on Jeff's shirt.

639
00:36:44,462 --> 00:36:48,102
Speaker 3: Now that's significant. It doesn't necessarily say that it got

640
00:36:48,102 --> 00:36:52,182
Speaker 3: there through the process of stabbing Anthea, but it does

641
00:36:52,262 --> 00:36:55,382
Speaker 3: say that perhaps some of the blood got there through

642
00:36:56,062 --> 00:36:58,102
Speaker 3: traveling through the air. And so then you need to

643
00:36:58,102 --> 00:37:01,022
Speaker 3: think about, Okay, how could Jeff have got the projected

644
00:37:01,022 --> 00:37:05,422
Speaker 3: blood onto his shirt by just viewing and checking Anthea's body.

645
00:37:06,182 --> 00:37:08,462
Speaker 3: And it's possible he could have stepped in the pool

646
00:37:08,502 --> 00:37:10,622
Speaker 3: of blood, for example, and it could have splashed up

647
00:37:10,662 --> 00:37:13,822
Speaker 3: onto his shirt. He could have had the blood wipe

648
00:37:13,862 --> 00:37:15,782
Speaker 3: onto his shirt and then that could have gripped from

649
00:37:15,862 --> 00:37:19,822
Speaker 3: one sleeve to the other. That's also possible. But it

650
00:37:19,902 --> 00:37:24,542
Speaker 3: was definitely evidence that would support a theory that perhaps

651
00:37:24,822 --> 00:37:28,422
Speaker 3: it had got there through the process of stabbing Anthea.

652
00:37:29,182 --> 00:37:34,742
Speaker 3: And then it became about not necessarily just taking Henry C.

653
00:37:35,102 --> 00:37:38,662
Speaker 3: Lee's word for it, because in these cases there are

654
00:37:38,742 --> 00:37:41,622
Speaker 3: varying opinions and if you go to another forensic scientist

655
00:37:41,622 --> 00:37:43,542
Speaker 3: it can be different. And that's what police did. They

656
00:37:43,582 --> 00:37:46,342
Speaker 3: went to someone in Western Australia who looked at the

657
00:37:46,342 --> 00:37:49,862
Speaker 3: evidence as well and wasn't as convinced that there was

658
00:37:49,942 --> 00:37:53,182
Speaker 3: this medium velocity blood. He said that it was possible

659
00:37:53,222 --> 00:37:56,702
Speaker 3: that there was projected blood stains on the shirt. And

660
00:37:57,702 --> 00:38:01,502
Speaker 3: there were also similar findings from a South Australian forensic

661
00:38:01,582 --> 00:38:04,742
Speaker 3: scientist who said the same thing. But one thing that

662
00:38:04,782 --> 00:38:07,622
Speaker 3: they all agreed on was that there was blood or

663
00:38:07,662 --> 00:38:10,102
Speaker 3: at least blood like stains on the shirt. And then

664
00:38:11,102 --> 00:38:13,982
Speaker 3: to wrap that up, they need to then go, okay, well,

665
00:38:14,062 --> 00:38:17,582
Speaker 3: let's look at the crime scene. Let's see how Jeff

666
00:38:17,622 --> 00:38:21,062
Speaker 3: may have got that blood on his shirt without being

667
00:38:21,102 --> 00:38:23,862
Speaker 3: too graphic anthey's on the ground, there's a pull of

668
00:38:23,902 --> 00:38:27,502
Speaker 3: blood off to one side of her body. And there's

669
00:38:27,542 --> 00:38:33,382
Speaker 3: a pathologist here in South Australia named Roger Bayard, Professor

670
00:38:33,502 --> 00:38:38,302
Speaker 3: Roger Bayard, who looked at the crime scene photographs and

671
00:38:38,422 --> 00:38:41,382
Speaker 3: was asked to make a determination on how Jeff could

672
00:38:41,422 --> 00:38:44,182
Speaker 3: have got the blood on his shirt in checking the body.

673
00:38:44,222 --> 00:38:46,902
Speaker 3: And I've spoken to Roger in the podcast and he

674
00:38:46,942 --> 00:38:51,422
Speaker 3: tells me that when he looks at the photo, he

675
00:38:51,462 --> 00:38:54,262
Speaker 3: thinks if Jeff had come around from one side and

676
00:38:54,342 --> 00:38:56,702
Speaker 3: approached her. And we need to keep in mind, and

677
00:38:56,702 --> 00:38:58,542
Speaker 3: this is something that I might not have mentioned. Jeff

678
00:38:58,542 --> 00:39:02,022
Speaker 3: has been specific about what he did he touched Anthea's face,

679
00:39:02,222 --> 00:39:05,862
Speaker 3: he checked her pulse, and he touched her leg. And

680
00:39:05,942 --> 00:39:08,982
Speaker 3: Roger says that if he had come from one side

681
00:39:08,982 --> 00:39:11,982
Speaker 3: of the body and done those things, he can't see

682
00:39:12,022 --> 00:39:14,222
Speaker 3: how Jeff could have got blood on him because there

683
00:39:14,262 --> 00:39:18,062
Speaker 3: wasn't any blood on that side. Then Roger says, Okay,

684
00:39:18,102 --> 00:39:20,302
Speaker 3: if he went around the other side, yes he could

685
00:39:20,302 --> 00:39:23,102
Speaker 3: have got blood on him, but he would have disturbed

686
00:39:23,182 --> 00:39:25,902
Speaker 3: the pool of blood. And when you look at the photograph,

687
00:39:26,182 --> 00:39:29,782
Speaker 3: there is no evidence that there was any disruption to

688
00:39:29,862 --> 00:39:33,382
Speaker 3: that pool of blood. And so this became important evidence

689
00:39:33,422 --> 00:39:38,622
Speaker 3: as well in that it raises doubt about whether Jeff

690
00:39:38,662 --> 00:39:40,582
Speaker 3: could have got blood on his shirt when he checked

691
00:39:40,582 --> 00:39:41,342
Speaker 3: Anthea's body.

692
00:39:42,182 --> 00:39:44,142
Speaker 1: What does Bruneye do with all of this information?

693
00:39:45,102 --> 00:39:47,862
Speaker 3: This was all given to Brunei police because they still

694
00:39:47,902 --> 00:39:50,942
Speaker 3: had jurisdiction. Sow. The Australian police might have been investigating,

695
00:39:50,942 --> 00:39:53,342
Speaker 3: but they had jurisdiction. And I need to point out

696
00:39:53,422 --> 00:39:57,262
Speaker 3: that that blood stained evidence I talk about is significant,

697
00:39:57,262 --> 00:40:01,422
Speaker 3: but I don't think it's conclusive, and it was given

698
00:40:01,502 --> 00:40:05,662
Speaker 3: to the Bruney police. They made a determination not just

699
00:40:05,702 --> 00:40:09,062
Speaker 3: based on that, but also based on alibi accounts that

700
00:40:09,102 --> 00:40:12,822
Speaker 3: we should talk about at some point, witness accounts that

701
00:40:12,982 --> 00:40:16,902
Speaker 3: there wasn't enough evidence to prosecute jeffrel.

702
00:40:16,462 --> 00:40:19,102
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the alibi stuff. Now, how does that

703
00:40:19,142 --> 00:40:19,782
Speaker 1: come into play?

704
00:40:20,582 --> 00:40:22,622
Speaker 3: As I've mentioned Jeff was at work, well, he says

705
00:40:22,662 --> 00:40:26,142
Speaker 3: that he was at work that afternoon, and so then

706
00:40:26,182 --> 00:40:30,382
Speaker 3: the question becomes time of death very important. Here did

707
00:40:30,502 --> 00:40:33,822
Speaker 3: Anthea die in the morning, for example, before Jeff even

708
00:40:33,862 --> 00:40:37,862
Speaker 3: went to work. This is where the witness has become important.

709
00:40:37,902 --> 00:40:39,782
Speaker 3: And I've spoken to the key ones. There's a woman

710
00:40:39,862 --> 00:40:44,702
Speaker 3: named nur Angela Hillyard who worked with Jeff lived at

711
00:40:44,742 --> 00:40:48,862
Speaker 3: the apartment complex, in the apartment directly under Jeff's and

712
00:40:48,902 --> 00:40:53,102
Speaker 3: she says that that day she was at work as well. However,

713
00:40:53,142 --> 00:40:56,422
Speaker 3: she went home for lunch, and she did this at

714
00:40:56,422 --> 00:40:59,262
Speaker 3: around one pm, and there was a shuttle service, so

715
00:40:59,302 --> 00:41:01,782
Speaker 3: there was a van that the employees could get in

716
00:41:02,102 --> 00:41:04,902
Speaker 3: at the medical center and then make the short journey

717
00:41:05,262 --> 00:41:07,582
Speaker 3: to the apartment complex. So she went home for lunch,

718
00:41:08,182 --> 00:41:11,582
Speaker 3: and then at around one point fifty she went back

719
00:41:11,622 --> 00:41:14,262
Speaker 3: into the van to go back to the medical center,

720
00:41:14,302 --> 00:41:16,702
Speaker 3: and she said she looked up at Jeff and Anthea's

721
00:41:16,702 --> 00:41:21,262
Speaker 3: apartment and Anthea was on the balcony, and so this

722
00:41:21,422 --> 00:41:25,262
Speaker 3: is a sighting of Anthea alive at one fifty pm.

723
00:41:27,382 --> 00:41:31,542
Speaker 3: It's also important to note that a short time after that,

724
00:41:31,702 --> 00:41:35,822
Speaker 3: around two ten PM, another woman who was living at

725
00:41:35,822 --> 00:41:41,102
Speaker 3: that apartment complex named Carolyn Chilcott, heard a domestic dispute

726
00:41:41,102 --> 00:41:43,742
Speaker 3: and she's described it to Brunei police as a domestic

727
00:41:43,822 --> 00:41:48,182
Speaker 3: dispute at around two ten pm, the sound of a

728
00:41:48,262 --> 00:41:51,902
Speaker 3: man and a woman having an argument and also the

729
00:41:51,942 --> 00:41:55,982
Speaker 3: sound of furniture being moved. She says that went for

730
00:41:55,982 --> 00:41:59,222
Speaker 3: about seven minutes, and then she heard the sound of

731
00:41:59,262 --> 00:42:04,182
Speaker 3: footsteps going down the stairs and out of the apartment complex.

732
00:42:06,022 --> 00:42:07,862
Speaker 3: So we have a sighting of Anthea alive at one

733
00:42:07,862 --> 00:42:10,662
Speaker 3: point fifty we have the sound of a domestic dispute

734
00:42:10,822 --> 00:42:14,982
Speaker 3: at two ten, not necessarily coming from Jeff and Anthea's apartment,

735
00:42:15,022 --> 00:42:19,982
Speaker 3: but certainly from somewhere in the apartment complex. If the

736
00:42:20,062 --> 00:42:24,262
Speaker 3: sighting and that sound is linked to Anthea's murder, then

737
00:42:24,342 --> 00:42:30,102
Speaker 3: Jeff Hall is at work at the time. Few things

738
00:42:30,102 --> 00:42:34,302
Speaker 3: we need to question there. Firstly, there was only one

739
00:42:34,302 --> 00:42:39,302
Speaker 3: person that saw Anthea alive, and identifications like that have

740
00:42:39,422 --> 00:42:43,422
Speaker 3: been notoriously unreliable. I've interviewed neur Angela. I think she

741
00:42:43,742 --> 00:42:46,822
Speaker 3: is credible and one hundred percent believe she saw Anthea.

742
00:42:47,462 --> 00:42:50,462
Speaker 3: But that has been the case in many murder investigations

743
00:42:50,462 --> 00:42:53,702
Speaker 3: where those accounts have turned out to be wrong. So

744
00:42:53,742 --> 00:42:55,302
Speaker 3: we need to take that for what it is. And

745
00:42:55,342 --> 00:43:00,022
Speaker 3: I've been told by prosecution experts that in any trial

746
00:43:00,782 --> 00:43:03,342
Speaker 3: that would become under a lot of scrutiny, there'd be

747
00:43:03,382 --> 00:43:06,102
Speaker 3: a lot of questions asked about that sighting. The other

748
00:43:06,142 --> 00:43:08,502
Speaker 3: thing obviously we need to ask, is well, are we

749
00:43:08,622 --> 00:43:11,542
Speaker 3: sure that the sound of the dispute came from Jeff

750
00:43:11,582 --> 00:43:14,062
Speaker 3: and Anthea's apartment. It could have been someone else, could

751
00:43:14,062 --> 00:43:16,942
Speaker 3: have been a complete coincidence. And the police say that

752
00:43:17,022 --> 00:43:19,982
Speaker 3: any investigation there will be red herrings like this. They're

753
00:43:19,982 --> 00:43:22,222
Speaker 3: the first two things we need to consider. But then

754
00:43:22,222 --> 00:43:25,342
Speaker 3: we also need to look at Jeff Hall's version of events.

755
00:43:25,622 --> 00:43:27,862
Speaker 3: Was he really at work that whole time? Who saw

756
00:43:27,942 --> 00:43:30,302
Speaker 3: him at work was as someone that can account for

757
00:43:30,382 --> 00:43:33,902
Speaker 3: him being there every minute of the day between twelve

758
00:43:33,902 --> 00:43:37,902
Speaker 3: and five. And I have to say there are alibi

759
00:43:37,942 --> 00:43:41,222
Speaker 3: witnesses for Jeff Hall, people who say they saw him

760
00:43:41,422 --> 00:43:44,822
Speaker 3: around two point fifteen, although they couldn't be completely sure

761
00:43:44,862 --> 00:43:47,822
Speaker 3: of the time. But I think just to simplify it

762
00:43:47,822 --> 00:43:50,462
Speaker 3: a little bit, because Jeff Hall's version of events is

763
00:43:50,502 --> 00:43:54,142
Speaker 3: probably most important. He said in his original police statement

764
00:43:54,222 --> 00:43:56,822
Speaker 3: that he had a coffee break at two o'clock in

765
00:43:56,822 --> 00:43:59,822
Speaker 3: the afternoon. He says that he had that coffee break

766
00:44:00,382 --> 00:44:02,902
Speaker 3: on the clinic grounds. He never went home. He says

767
00:44:02,902 --> 00:44:05,102
Speaker 3: he never went back to the apartment and he says

768
00:44:05,102 --> 00:44:09,102
Speaker 3: that he had that coffee break with his superior Varghi's Powlos,

769
00:44:09,342 --> 00:44:12,982
Speaker 3: who was the head of the MRI department where he worked.

770
00:44:13,582 --> 00:44:17,742
Speaker 3: Problem is Fagie's powerloss in his statement says, yes, I

771
00:44:17,782 --> 00:44:20,422
Speaker 3: did have a coffee break with Jeff Hall, but that

772
00:44:20,582 --> 00:44:24,182
Speaker 3: was at two forty five, and so there's a difference

773
00:44:24,222 --> 00:44:28,982
Speaker 3: in timings there, and it is possible that one of

774
00:44:28,982 --> 00:44:31,182
Speaker 3: them has just got their time wrong. But a fact

775
00:44:31,262 --> 00:44:33,302
Speaker 3: of this case is that Jeff says he had a

776
00:44:33,302 --> 00:44:35,902
Speaker 3: coffee break at two and the person he says he

777
00:44:35,942 --> 00:44:38,822
Speaker 3: had a coffee break with says, no, it happened at

778
00:44:38,822 --> 00:44:42,382
Speaker 3: two forty five. Crucial timing when you consider the sound

779
00:44:42,422 --> 00:44:45,422
Speaker 3: of the domestic dispute at the apartment complex at about

780
00:44:45,462 --> 00:44:48,942
Speaker 3: two ten pm. The other important thing to note there

781
00:44:49,222 --> 00:44:53,582
Speaker 3: is that whilst Jeff's car wasn't with him by all reports.

782
00:44:53,582 --> 00:44:56,942
Speaker 3: At the medical center. It's a fairly short walk. I've

783
00:44:56,982 --> 00:44:59,142
Speaker 3: looked at it on Google Maps. As the crow flies,

784
00:44:59,182 --> 00:45:03,022
Speaker 3: it's less than a kilometer from the apartment complex to

785
00:45:03,422 --> 00:45:06,342
Speaker 3: the clinic. Jeff was a fit man. If he wanted

786
00:45:06,342 --> 00:45:09,142
Speaker 3: to run, he'd cover a kilometer in five minutes. If

787
00:45:09,182 --> 00:45:12,982
Speaker 3: he walked, he might take ten to fifteen. He could

788
00:45:12,982 --> 00:45:17,742
Speaker 3: get a ride. That's something that has been investigated. What

789
00:45:17,782 --> 00:45:23,102
Speaker 3: it essentially shows is that there is a possibility that

790
00:45:23,222 --> 00:45:27,062
Speaker 3: Jeff could have gone home during that five hour period.

791
00:45:27,502 --> 00:45:30,782
Speaker 3: I will repeat, though, that there were several people who

792
00:45:30,902 --> 00:45:33,422
Speaker 3: certainly say that they were with Jeff the large chunks

793
00:45:33,462 --> 00:45:35,302
Speaker 3: of the day. The other thing that Jeff said was

794
00:45:35,342 --> 00:45:38,182
Speaker 3: that he spent a lot of that afternoon with var

795
00:45:38,262 --> 00:45:43,142
Speaker 3: Geese and with another colleague, Emmett Timperley. Emma has been

796
00:45:43,142 --> 00:45:45,462
Speaker 3: supportive in her witness statement of what I've seen in

797
00:45:45,502 --> 00:45:48,182
Speaker 3: terms of spending a lot of time with Jeff. Var Geese, though,

798
00:45:48,222 --> 00:45:51,542
Speaker 3: who I've interviewed, has said that he would have only

799
00:45:51,622 --> 00:45:53,862
Speaker 3: spent a few minutes here and there with Jeff, and

800
00:45:54,022 --> 00:45:56,142
Speaker 3: certainly doesn't think he would have spent a large chunk

801
00:45:56,142 --> 00:46:09,142
Speaker 3: of the afternoon with him.

802
00:46:09,462 --> 00:46:13,182
Speaker 1: So Rownie has all of this evidence and investigation, what

803
00:46:13,222 --> 00:46:15,862
Speaker 1: does he do with it in terms of the Australian authorities.

804
00:46:16,982 --> 00:46:19,942
Speaker 3: So he wanted an opinion as to whether or not

805
00:46:20,302 --> 00:46:23,782
Speaker 3: what he had gathered was enough for a prosecution, and

806
00:46:23,822 --> 00:46:26,062
Speaker 3: so he went to the South Australian Director of Public

807
00:46:26,102 --> 00:46:29,382
Speaker 3: Prosecutions at the time, who was a man named Stephen Polaris.

808
00:46:29,982 --> 00:46:33,702
Speaker 3: It was his role as the DPP in South Australia

809
00:46:33,782 --> 00:46:35,982
Speaker 3: to look at evidence that police have gathered and make

810
00:46:36,062 --> 00:46:38,542
Speaker 3: decisions on whether or not there was enough to put

811
00:46:38,582 --> 00:46:41,102
Speaker 3: a person before the court. This was his speciality. This

812
00:46:41,142 --> 00:46:44,902
Speaker 3: is what he did every day. So that evidence was

813
00:46:44,902 --> 00:46:48,542
Speaker 3: presented to him, and he tells me after examining that evidence,

814
00:46:48,622 --> 00:46:51,382
Speaker 3: he came to the conclusion that there was not only

815
00:46:51,662 --> 00:46:55,662
Speaker 3: enough evidence to charge Jeffrey Hall, there was enough evidence

816
00:46:55,902 --> 00:46:59,542
Speaker 3: to put him on trial for murder. This was a

817
00:46:59,582 --> 00:47:01,662
Speaker 3: determination he made in two thousand and eight. And I

818
00:47:01,702 --> 00:47:05,182
Speaker 3: do want to caveat that with the fact that perhaps

819
00:47:05,222 --> 00:47:07,862
Speaker 3: evidence has been gathered since then that might change his mind,

820
00:47:07,862 --> 00:47:11,622
Speaker 3: but certainly that was his determination in two thousand and eight.

821
00:47:12,822 --> 00:47:16,262
Speaker 1: You have Brunei not wanting to do that. You have

822
00:47:16,302 --> 00:47:20,302
Speaker 1: Australia wanting to do that. How do you go about

823
00:47:20,422 --> 00:47:24,582
Speaker 1: making that happen because we don't have jurisdiction there, and so.

824
00:47:24,622 --> 00:47:26,782
Speaker 3: Yeah, this was the first brick Wall I guess that

825
00:47:26,862 --> 00:47:30,142
Speaker 3: those investigators faced here in South Australia. So there was

826
00:47:30,182 --> 00:47:32,782
Speaker 3: Detective Brenton Rownie, but there was also another one that

827
00:47:32,942 --> 00:47:35,902
Speaker 3: came in, Detective John schneiem Milch. They worked together for

828
00:47:35,942 --> 00:47:41,182
Speaker 3: a point and they decided, okay, Brunei Police isn't going

829
00:47:41,182 --> 00:47:45,302
Speaker 3: to investigate the DPP here thinks there's enough evidence. Our

830
00:47:45,342 --> 00:47:48,462
Speaker 3: next step, we're going to talk to Jeff Hall. Jeff

831
00:47:48,502 --> 00:47:51,622
Speaker 3: Hall was working in Tokyo as an executive by this point.

832
00:47:52,342 --> 00:47:55,782
Speaker 3: They put an alert on his passport so that whenever

833
00:47:55,822 --> 00:48:00,062
Speaker 3: he enters the country they would know about it. Jeff

834
00:48:00,062 --> 00:48:04,262
Speaker 3: Hall eventually comes back to Australia and he's staying at

835
00:48:04,302 --> 00:48:08,702
Speaker 3: a hotel in the CBD and detective Rownie and schnee

836
00:48:08,742 --> 00:48:14,582
Speaker 3: Milch go to his front door at the hotel room. Jeff,

837
00:48:15,302 --> 00:48:19,662
Speaker 3: to their surprise, agrees to talk to them and they

838
00:48:20,142 --> 00:48:25,062
Speaker 3: interview him at length. Jeff sticks to that original story.

839
00:48:26,422 --> 00:48:29,022
Speaker 3: I've got varying accounts from those two detectives. One of

840
00:48:29,062 --> 00:48:32,862
Speaker 3: them believes that he thought that at one stage Jeff

841
00:48:32,862 --> 00:48:35,262
Speaker 3: Hall was going to confess to the murder. The other

842
00:48:35,302 --> 00:48:38,902
Speaker 3: detective certainly didn't agree with that at all, but both

843
00:48:38,982 --> 00:48:41,702
Speaker 3: of them do agree that Jeff Hall was extremely upset.

844
00:48:41,982 --> 00:48:45,662
Speaker 3: He was obviously extremely shocked to suddenly have detectives arriving

845
00:48:45,662 --> 00:48:47,942
Speaker 3: at his door all of these years later, but they

846
00:48:48,542 --> 00:48:52,622
Speaker 3: did interview him. He agreed to the interview. Jeff's story

847
00:48:52,662 --> 00:48:58,022
Speaker 3: didn't change, and then the detectives went to the Bradshaw's home,

848
00:48:58,782 --> 00:49:02,222
Speaker 3: sat them down and said, we think we've done all

849
00:49:02,262 --> 00:49:06,862
Speaker 3: we can here. Now we don't have any jurisdiction and

850
00:49:06,902 --> 00:49:08,702
Speaker 3: we're going to have to leave it at that. And

851
00:49:08,862 --> 00:49:13,822
Speaker 3: Craig Bradshaw, Anthea's eldest brother, who very frustrated by this point,

852
00:49:13,862 --> 00:49:16,262
Speaker 3: says that he went outside. He had a punching bag

853
00:49:16,542 --> 00:49:18,702
Speaker 3: and he punched the punching bag and he broke his

854
00:49:18,742 --> 00:49:23,702
Speaker 3: wrist because he felt like it was just another as

855
00:49:23,702 --> 00:49:27,262
Speaker 3: I say, brickwall that they had faced. And so when

856
00:49:27,302 --> 00:49:30,302
Speaker 3: he had eventually calmed down, he said to these detectives, Okay,

857
00:49:30,382 --> 00:49:33,182
Speaker 3: well where can we go from here? And they said, well,

858
00:49:33,942 --> 00:49:36,422
Speaker 3: we don't think your chances are very good, but you

859
00:49:36,462 --> 00:49:40,262
Speaker 3: could go to Federal Parliament and you could change a

860
00:49:40,342 --> 00:49:45,142
Speaker 3: law so that police in Australia can investigate this crime,

861
00:49:45,222 --> 00:49:46,782
Speaker 3: because at the end of the day, the victim was

862
00:49:46,822 --> 00:49:50,342
Speaker 3: Australian and there was legislation in place already that came

863
00:49:50,342 --> 00:49:52,982
Speaker 3: in in two thousand and two after the Bali bombings

864
00:49:53,782 --> 00:49:58,142
Speaker 3: that allowed Australian police to investigate overseas murders. The problem

865
00:49:58,182 --> 00:50:01,782
Speaker 3: with that though, was that it wasn't backdated, so the

866
00:50:01,942 --> 00:50:06,342
Speaker 3: legislation only began in two Anything before that, including Anthea's

867
00:50:06,382 --> 00:50:10,382
Speaker 3: murder in nineteen ninety four, wasn't subject to this legislation,

868
00:50:10,582 --> 00:50:14,022
Speaker 3: and so what the Bradshaws would need to do is

869
00:50:14,142 --> 00:50:18,622
Speaker 3: changed that legislation so that it was retrospective. And that's

870
00:50:18,662 --> 00:50:21,462
Speaker 3: where a whole new fight began for the Bradshaws. They

871
00:50:21,502 --> 00:50:25,342
Speaker 3: went to journalists at the time and one of them

872
00:50:25,382 --> 00:50:28,342
Speaker 3: was probably me, but also a reporter with a local

873
00:50:28,382 --> 00:50:30,982
Speaker 3: paper who wrote a feature article about this. It gave

874
00:50:31,022 --> 00:50:34,102
Speaker 3: the case a bit more prominence. And then I'm sure

875
00:50:34,102 --> 00:50:37,622
Speaker 3: you'll know Nick Xenophon, a very prominent independent senator at

876
00:50:37,622 --> 00:50:41,062
Speaker 3: the time, became aware of the case and he went

877
00:50:41,102 --> 00:50:43,822
Speaker 3: and met with the Bradshaws and he said Okay, well,

878
00:50:44,302 --> 00:50:48,222
Speaker 3: let's see if we can change this legislation. It was

879
00:50:48,262 --> 00:50:50,582
Speaker 3: going to be difficult though for Nick on his own

880
00:50:50,622 --> 00:50:53,142
Speaker 3: because he was an independent wasn't aligned to either of

881
00:50:53,182 --> 00:50:56,382
Speaker 3: the major parties here in Australia. But perhaps another stroke

882
00:50:56,422 --> 00:51:00,102
Speaker 3: of luck was that the local member for the Bradshaws

883
00:51:00,262 --> 00:51:04,582
Speaker 3: was Christopher Pine, a prominent cabinet minister at the time,

884
00:51:04,662 --> 00:51:08,022
Speaker 3: and so Nick and Chris and the family get together

885
00:51:09,382 --> 00:51:12,622
Speaker 3: and they try to work out, okay, how do we

886
00:51:12,662 --> 00:51:16,262
Speaker 3: go about this. Christopher Pine approached the Attorney General at

887
00:51:16,302 --> 00:51:19,022
Speaker 3: the time, who was George Brandis, and they decided that

888
00:51:19,102 --> 00:51:23,382
Speaker 3: if they introduced a private member's bill through Nick Xenophon,

889
00:51:23,542 --> 00:51:27,182
Speaker 3: that perhaps this could get past the Senate and the

890
00:51:27,182 --> 00:51:31,982
Speaker 3: House of Representatives. And it didn't happen easily, but eventually

891
00:51:32,422 --> 00:51:34,662
Speaker 3: that did happen and the law was changed, and the

892
00:51:34,662 --> 00:51:39,342
Speaker 3: Bradshaws went to Canberra. They fronted the cameras and this

893
00:51:39,542 --> 00:51:43,902
Speaker 3: was an historic day and they changed federal law and

894
00:51:44,222 --> 00:51:47,462
Speaker 3: it became known as Antia's Law or the Bradshaw Bill,

895
00:51:48,262 --> 00:51:50,982
Speaker 3: and that would not just help them, but potentially help

896
00:51:51,582 --> 00:51:55,422
Speaker 3: many other Australian families as well. That could be seen

897
00:51:55,462 --> 00:51:58,342
Speaker 3: as a victory For the Bradshaws, they certainly didn't see

898
00:51:58,342 --> 00:52:00,462
Speaker 3: it that way and they said as much. This was

899
00:52:00,662 --> 00:52:04,142
Speaker 3: just Martin Bradshaw that his father said. They were never

900
00:52:04,222 --> 00:52:07,142
Speaker 3: going to be any winners in this. It's just about

901
00:52:07,302 --> 00:52:10,262
Speaker 3: pursuing justice. But this allowed them to take that next

902
00:52:10,302 --> 00:52:10,782
Speaker 3: time step.

903
00:52:11,662 --> 00:52:14,782
Speaker 1: We still don't have anyone behind bars for this murder,

904
00:52:15,862 --> 00:52:20,102
Speaker 1: so that law might have gone through, but what's actually

905
00:52:20,142 --> 00:52:22,702
Speaker 1: happened since that law came through? Where are we at

906
00:52:22,742 --> 00:52:23,782
Speaker 1: in this investigation?

907
00:52:25,222 --> 00:52:28,502
Speaker 3: And so the Bradshaws thought at this point that the

908
00:52:28,542 --> 00:52:32,782
Speaker 3: South Australian Police would then investigate and have jurisdiction. That

909
00:52:32,902 --> 00:52:37,702
Speaker 3: didn't happen. The Australian Federal Police were given the job

910
00:52:37,982 --> 00:52:42,022
Speaker 3: of investigating it, presumably because they used to dealing with

911
00:52:42,422 --> 00:52:48,502
Speaker 3: overseas governments, overseas police forces, and they might have access

912
00:52:48,582 --> 00:52:51,662
Speaker 3: to more intel than the South Australian Police would have,

913
00:52:52,342 --> 00:52:56,262
Speaker 3: so in a way it made sense. Two investigators were

914
00:52:56,262 --> 00:53:00,222
Speaker 3: given the task of not conducting an investigation. They used

915
00:53:00,262 --> 00:53:03,862
Speaker 3: the word evaluation to evaluate the evidence to then make

916
00:53:03,902 --> 00:53:07,822
Speaker 3: a decision whether it was even worth investigating. Those two

917
00:53:07,862 --> 00:53:12,982
Speaker 3: investigators spent around eighteen months looking at the evidence, conducting

918
00:53:13,022 --> 00:53:19,182
Speaker 3: their own investigations, re examining forensic exhibits, They visited Brunei,

919
00:53:19,502 --> 00:53:25,702
Speaker 3: they spoke to witnesses. However, they then summoned the Bradshaws,

920
00:53:25,742 --> 00:53:29,942
Speaker 3: or called the Bradshaws to their AFP offices in Adelaide,

921
00:53:30,622 --> 00:53:34,502
Speaker 3: sat them down and told them quite bluntly that they

922
00:53:34,542 --> 00:53:37,942
Speaker 3: would not be conducting a full investigation into the matter.

923
00:53:38,902 --> 00:53:43,382
Speaker 1: That must have been heartbreaking after all of that, after

924
00:53:43,462 --> 00:53:48,302
Speaker 1: everything that they had been through, it ripped their hearts out.

925
00:53:48,662 --> 00:53:54,102
Speaker 3: Paul Bradshaw, I'm told, reacted very angrily. Anthea's younger brother

926
00:53:55,462 --> 00:53:59,702
Speaker 3: just wanted to leave, dropped some f bombs, told them

927
00:53:59,982 --> 00:54:05,342
Speaker 3: what he thought of them, and eventually left the building.

928
00:54:06,742 --> 00:54:09,502
Speaker 3: I'm told by some sources he may have done a

929
00:54:09,542 --> 00:54:12,182
Speaker 3: small burnout in the car park and then drove off.

930
00:54:13,302 --> 00:54:16,302
Speaker 3: And it was the same feeling for Craig and Roz

931
00:54:16,422 --> 00:54:19,942
Speaker 3: and Martin. It was a shock. They thought that there

932
00:54:19,942 --> 00:54:22,382
Speaker 3: would at least be an investigation. And that's the point

933
00:54:22,422 --> 00:54:25,902
Speaker 3: I want to make here, is that this wasn't about going, Okay,

934
00:54:25,982 --> 00:54:29,942
Speaker 3: let's go and arrest Jeff Hall. It was about let's

935
00:54:29,982 --> 00:54:34,382
Speaker 3: investigate who killed Anthea. There are other theories, but someone

936
00:54:34,502 --> 00:54:37,182
Speaker 3: killed Anthea. So Let's find out who it was. Let's

937
00:54:37,262 --> 00:54:40,982
Speaker 3: not just allow a South Australian woman to be murdered

938
00:54:41,022 --> 00:54:44,582
Speaker 3: overseas and do nothing about it. That was their frustration,

939
00:54:46,182 --> 00:54:49,062
Speaker 3: and it was a shock for me too. I've been

940
00:54:49,062 --> 00:54:51,222
Speaker 3: following this case. I tried to ring the Brawdshaws. They

941
00:54:51,222 --> 00:54:55,022
Speaker 3: weren't answering their phones. They dropped off the grid for

942
00:54:55,542 --> 00:54:58,022
Speaker 3: a few days, maybe a few weeks. And I'm only

943
00:54:58,062 --> 00:55:02,422
Speaker 3: being told now the reason that was was that Martin

944
00:55:03,062 --> 00:55:08,782
Speaker 3: Antea's father started to spiral. His health started to suffer

945
00:55:09,542 --> 00:55:12,102
Speaker 3: and he had a stroke a couple of weeks after

946
00:55:13,222 --> 00:55:17,022
Speaker 3: being told this news. He survived that stroke. Craig was

947
00:55:17,062 --> 00:55:19,422
Speaker 3: there and managed to get into a hospital, but sadly,

948
00:55:20,102 --> 00:55:22,942
Speaker 3: he had a few more strokes and he continued to

949
00:55:22,982 --> 00:55:25,782
Speaker 3: go downhill, and a few years ago he passed away

950
00:55:26,022 --> 00:55:28,142
Speaker 3: without knowing what had happened to his daughter.

951
00:55:28,702 --> 00:55:30,462
Speaker 1: Is that why you've come in? Is that why you're

952
00:55:30,462 --> 00:55:34,062
Speaker 1: reinvestigating this to try and help this family in this

953
00:55:34,222 --> 00:55:35,462
Speaker 1: next stage of their fight.

954
00:55:36,342 --> 00:55:38,582
Speaker 3: Yes, because they don't know where else to go. The

955
00:55:38,622 --> 00:55:41,382
Speaker 3: Bradshaw family at the moment, we need to reflect. Now

956
00:55:41,422 --> 00:55:44,342
Speaker 3: we've had a Brunei police investigation that didn't go anywhere.

957
00:55:44,542 --> 00:55:49,502
Speaker 3: South Australian Police were enthusiastic about helping them, but ultimately

958
00:55:50,142 --> 00:55:53,102
Speaker 3: didn't have the primary jurisdiction and it was given to

959
00:55:53,222 --> 00:55:56,822
Speaker 3: the AFP, which investigated. And I need to be very clear,

960
00:55:57,782 --> 00:56:03,022
Speaker 3: they called that investigation an evaluation and then they said

961
00:56:03,102 --> 00:56:05,662
Speaker 3: explicitly to the family that they would not conduct a

962
00:56:05,702 --> 00:56:09,782
Speaker 3: full investigation into the matter. And I found that very

963
00:56:09,902 --> 00:56:13,622
Speaker 3: unusual for several reasons. And I'm not saying that they

964
00:56:13,662 --> 00:56:16,502
Speaker 3: didn't do a thorough job. And I'm sure that they

965
00:56:16,742 --> 00:56:19,702
Speaker 3: are aware of evidence that I'm not aware of, and

966
00:56:19,742 --> 00:56:22,462
Speaker 3: perhaps the other police forces aren't aware of, and the

967
00:56:22,462 --> 00:56:28,102
Speaker 3: former South Australian DEPP isn't aware of. But did they

968
00:56:28,182 --> 00:56:31,862
Speaker 3: do everything they could? And should they be saying that

969
00:56:31,942 --> 00:56:34,622
Speaker 3: they're not going to conduct a full investigation. I think

970
00:56:34,622 --> 00:56:37,702
Speaker 3: that's a horrible thing to tell a family. I really do.

971
00:56:38,582 --> 00:56:44,182
Speaker 3: And for example, if there's a cold case in South

972
00:56:44,222 --> 00:56:51,022
Speaker 3: Australia the South Australian Police, it'll always be something that

973
00:56:51,022 --> 00:56:53,542
Speaker 3: they never give up on and they will hold press

974
00:56:53,542 --> 00:56:57,302
Speaker 3: conferences or they'll keep pushing it out there and calling

975
00:56:57,342 --> 00:57:03,062
Speaker 3: for information. Now, I'm not aware of a single police

976
00:57:03,102 --> 00:57:08,022
Speaker 3: officer in the world having ever done a press conference

977
00:57:08,222 --> 00:57:12,622
Speaker 3: about Anthea's murder. Not one nearly thirty years not one

978
00:57:13,342 --> 00:57:16,702
Speaker 3: might have happened in Brunei. Perhaps I'm not sure. Certainly

979
00:57:16,702 --> 00:57:18,622
Speaker 3: not in Australia. And that's what I guess what we

980
00:57:18,662 --> 00:57:22,502
Speaker 3: can focus on now, because clearly it's now Australia's job

981
00:57:22,542 --> 00:57:25,022
Speaker 3: to do this, because Brunei is not going to I

982
00:57:25,062 --> 00:57:29,182
Speaker 3: would have thought that at some point you front the

983
00:57:29,222 --> 00:57:34,262
Speaker 3: cameras and you say it's not acceptable that an innocent

984
00:57:34,702 --> 00:57:37,902
Speaker 3: South Australian school teacher was killed in the prime of

985
00:57:37,942 --> 00:57:40,902
Speaker 3: her life in a foreign country. We want to do

986
00:57:40,942 --> 00:57:44,702
Speaker 3: something about it. Who knows something? If you know, call

987
00:57:44,782 --> 00:57:48,222
Speaker 3: this number, put out a reward, like you do with

988
00:57:48,302 --> 00:57:52,782
Speaker 3: every other unsolved murder in Australia that hasn't happened. Either.

989
00:57:52,822 --> 00:57:56,742
Speaker 3: There's no reward. The AFP might say, I will look,

990
00:57:56,942 --> 00:58:00,222
Speaker 3: this happened overseas. Why would we call for witnesses here

991
00:58:00,222 --> 00:58:04,422
Speaker 3: in Australia. Well, a lot of the witnesses now live

992
00:58:04,422 --> 00:58:06,862
Speaker 3: in Australia. Well, the key one, nor Angela, who I

993
00:58:06,902 --> 00:58:09,502
Speaker 3: spoke to, who was the last to see anthrough her

994
00:58:09,582 --> 00:58:11,302
Speaker 3: live will, says she was the last to see anthrow

995
00:58:11,302 --> 00:58:14,302
Speaker 3: your lives. She lives in Perth. I've spoken to another

996
00:58:14,342 --> 00:58:17,222
Speaker 3: witness who had dinner with Anthea and Jeff the night before.

997
00:58:17,342 --> 00:58:20,382
Speaker 3: She lives in Borough, South Australia. A lot of these

998
00:58:20,422 --> 00:58:27,062
Speaker 3: expats are in Australia and anti families in Australia. Antea's

999
00:58:27,182 --> 00:58:30,542
Speaker 3: friends are in Australia. It's important to know about Jeff

1000
00:58:30,582 --> 00:58:34,502
Speaker 3: and Anthea's relationship before they went overseas. You need to

1001
00:58:34,502 --> 00:58:36,662
Speaker 3: build a full picture, and so I think there is

1002
00:58:36,742 --> 00:58:39,942
Speaker 3: good reason to do a press conference or a recorded

1003
00:58:40,022 --> 00:58:43,782
Speaker 3: interview here in Australia and I have reached out to

1004
00:58:43,822 --> 00:58:48,342
Speaker 3: the AFP with a full list of questions. It took

1005
00:58:48,382 --> 00:58:50,342
Speaker 3: me a long time to get an answer as to

1006
00:58:50,382 --> 00:58:53,702
Speaker 3: whether they would speak with me, and six weeks after

1007
00:58:54,022 --> 00:58:57,382
Speaker 3: that first inquiry I got an email saying that they

1008
00:58:57,422 --> 00:59:02,902
Speaker 3: would politely decline. And what's particularly frustrating about that is

1009
00:59:02,942 --> 00:59:08,582
Speaker 3: that podcasts they extend beyond borders, don't they Like people

1010
00:59:08,622 --> 00:59:12,662
Speaker 3: in BRUNEI might listen to the podcast, the American expats

1011
00:59:12,742 --> 00:59:15,302
Speaker 3: might hear it in the US. There are witnesses in

1012
00:59:15,302 --> 00:59:18,142
Speaker 3: the UK, and there is a very good chance that

1013
00:59:18,222 --> 00:59:21,502
Speaker 3: once the podcast starts getting shared around, it will get

1014
00:59:21,542 --> 00:59:25,062
Speaker 3: to the right people. I was extremely disappointed that they

1015
00:59:25,062 --> 00:59:28,382
Speaker 3: didn't want to talk. They did provide me with an

1016
00:59:28,382 --> 00:59:32,182
Speaker 3: extensive written statement, and I should acknowledge that they certainly

1017
00:59:32,222 --> 00:59:35,302
Speaker 3: say that they did everything that they could, that they

1018
00:59:35,342 --> 00:59:40,782
Speaker 3: feel like they turned over every stone, that they interviewed

1019
00:59:40,822 --> 00:59:43,822
Speaker 3: all of the right people, They re examined the forensic evidence.

1020
00:59:44,382 --> 00:59:49,102
Speaker 3: They also say that they uncovered new evidence, including some

1021
00:59:49,302 --> 00:59:53,302
Speaker 3: injuries we weren't aware of to anthea, which is well

1022
00:59:53,302 --> 00:59:55,102
Speaker 3: and good, but I would have some follow up questions

1023
00:59:55,102 --> 00:59:57,582
Speaker 3: for that, and I'd like to know a little bit more.

1024
00:59:57,662 --> 01:00:00,742
Speaker 3: And if there is some stuff that they know that

1025
01:00:01,062 --> 01:00:05,382
Speaker 3: we don't the public doesn't know, that doesn't sit very

1026
01:00:05,422 --> 01:00:08,062
Speaker 3: comfortably with me either, because that would mean that Martin

1027
01:00:08,102 --> 01:00:13,822
Speaker 3: Bradshaw passed away without knowing the full story. And they

1028
01:00:13,862 --> 01:00:16,262
Speaker 3: probably do say that they need to keep some things

1029
01:00:16,302 --> 01:00:20,622
Speaker 3: up their sleeve because it might compromise the investigation if

1030
01:00:20,662 --> 01:00:23,262
Speaker 3: they release that information. But my response to that would

1031
01:00:23,262 --> 01:00:24,342
Speaker 3: be what investigation.

1032
01:00:24,622 --> 01:00:26,462
Speaker 1: Yeah, they've said they're not doing one.

1033
01:00:26,982 --> 01:00:29,742
Speaker 3: It's been thirty years. Maybe it's time to take some

1034
01:00:29,902 --> 01:00:34,182
Speaker 3: risks in releasing some information and getting the public talking again.

1035
01:00:34,462 --> 01:00:37,982
Speaker 3: I don't think it's okay to sit there inter state

1036
01:00:38,862 --> 01:00:41,222
Speaker 3: and say, oh, look, there are things that you guys

1037
01:00:41,262 --> 01:00:45,862
Speaker 3: don't know in this case. We're all is. Even if

1038
01:00:45,902 --> 01:00:48,262
Speaker 3: there's only a few new things that we can be told,

1039
01:00:48,542 --> 01:00:51,382
Speaker 3: it might be enough to get those witnesses talking again

1040
01:00:51,782 --> 01:00:54,542
Speaker 3: and to get the case back on track. So that

1041
01:00:54,622 --> 01:00:55,502
Speaker 3: has been frustrating.

1042
01:00:56,422 --> 01:00:58,622
Speaker 1: I just want to touch on this briefly, but as

1043
01:00:58,662 --> 01:01:02,262
Speaker 1: part of your investigation, you've been trying to build that timeline,

1044
01:01:02,262 --> 01:01:06,742
Speaker 1: that relationship inside Jeff and Anthea's world by talking to

1045
01:01:06,782 --> 01:01:11,102
Speaker 1: friends and stuff like that. Has anything in that timeline

1046
01:01:11,182 --> 01:01:14,702
Speaker 1: surprised you? Because one thing we haven't mentioned is that

1047
01:01:15,822 --> 01:01:18,502
Speaker 1: Jeff is actually a gay man. He came out in

1048
01:01:18,542 --> 01:01:21,782
Speaker 1: the early two thousands around that time has been gay.

1049
01:01:22,982 --> 01:01:25,342
Speaker 1: Is that something that's worth talking about.

1050
01:01:26,102 --> 01:01:28,862
Speaker 3: Yes, I think it's worth talking about. Obviously, we need

1051
01:01:28,902 --> 01:01:32,782
Speaker 3: to be very careful. I don't think that we can

1052
01:01:32,902 --> 01:01:37,382
Speaker 3: say it's important to the investigation necessarily. And the Bradshaws

1053
01:01:37,382 --> 01:01:39,702
Speaker 3: make the point as well that just because Jeff has

1054
01:01:39,742 --> 01:01:42,542
Speaker 3: come out as gay, it doesn't make him a murderer.

1055
01:01:42,542 --> 01:01:46,222
Speaker 3: And I hope that's an obvious thing to say. However,

1056
01:01:47,462 --> 01:01:53,902
Speaker 3: given that ninety six days after Anthea's wedding, she was killed,

1057
01:01:54,062 --> 01:01:57,742
Speaker 3: and given that Jeff Hall has been named as a

1058
01:01:57,782 --> 01:02:02,062
Speaker 3: suspect in a coroner's in quest and also in an

1059
01:02:02,062 --> 01:02:06,342
Speaker 3: Adelaide court since then. Given those things, it's important to

1060
01:02:06,342 --> 01:02:10,822
Speaker 3: go back over their relationship because that helps build a picture.

1061
01:02:11,742 --> 01:02:15,142
Speaker 3: So I want to talk about a few things there. Firstly,

1062
01:02:15,782 --> 01:02:19,742
Speaker 3: the Bradshaws say that they never saw many signs of

1063
01:02:20,062 --> 01:02:23,822
Speaker 3: tension between the couple, only an argument here and there.

1064
01:02:24,662 --> 01:02:29,182
Speaker 3: I've spoken to friends of Anthea who say that they

1065
01:02:29,222 --> 01:02:33,102
Speaker 3: did like Jeff, but they've also painted a bit of

1066
01:02:33,142 --> 01:02:36,262
Speaker 3: a different picture about what was happening behind closed doors.

1067
01:02:36,862 --> 01:02:40,382
Speaker 3: There was one letter in particular that Anthea had sent

1068
01:02:40,462 --> 01:02:44,422
Speaker 3: to one of her friends that spoke about them having

1069
01:02:44,502 --> 01:02:48,622
Speaker 3: some doozy of arguments, is how she described them, arguments

1070
01:02:48,702 --> 01:02:54,382
Speaker 3: that involved furniture throwing and minor injuries. Now, I want

1071
01:02:54,462 --> 01:02:57,062
Speaker 3: to make it clear that that doesn't make Jeff a

1072
01:02:57,142 --> 01:03:00,862
Speaker 3: murderer either, and that lots of couples would have arguments,

1073
01:03:00,862 --> 01:03:07,462
Speaker 3: and lots of couples probably have quite volatile arguments. Again,

1074
01:03:07,542 --> 01:03:10,662
Speaker 3: I think it's important to paint the picture though about

1075
01:03:10,662 --> 01:03:14,622
Speaker 3: their relationship, given that he is a suspect in the murder.

1076
01:03:15,222 --> 01:03:17,822
Speaker 3: There were other friends as well that also recall there

1077
01:03:17,862 --> 01:03:22,302
Speaker 3: being arguing. And there are some friends as well that

1078
01:03:22,422 --> 01:03:25,502
Speaker 3: say that there was some strange behavior, erratic behavior from

1079
01:03:25,582 --> 01:03:30,662
Speaker 3: Jeff after Anthea died, after the funeral, and I guess

1080
01:03:30,662 --> 01:03:33,422
Speaker 3: that could be explained. He would have been grieving at

1081
01:03:33,422 --> 01:03:36,102
Speaker 3: the time, but I think important to put that on

1082
01:03:36,142 --> 01:03:40,222
Speaker 3: the record. So there were those things from Antie's friends. Essentially,

1083
01:03:40,342 --> 01:03:45,582
Speaker 3: it was not a perfect relationship. Also, when you mentioned

1084
01:03:45,702 --> 01:03:49,622
Speaker 3: Jeff coming out as gay, that happened around ten years

1085
01:03:50,102 --> 01:03:52,862
Speaker 3: after the murder, that was a real shock for the

1086
01:03:52,902 --> 01:03:55,782
Speaker 3: Bradshaw family because they were still close with Jeff, particularly

1087
01:03:55,782 --> 01:03:59,222
Speaker 3: the brothers. They were still mates, but Jeff didn't tell them.

1088
01:03:59,422 --> 01:04:02,422
Speaker 3: One of the brothers, Paul, was at a social event.

1089
01:04:02,462 --> 01:04:04,182
Speaker 3: It was a cricket party, he says, and he was

1090
01:04:04,222 --> 01:04:07,182
Speaker 3: talking to a mutual friend of Jeff's and Paul said,

1091
01:04:07,702 --> 01:04:11,342
Speaker 3: how is Jeff? And this friend said, well, you know,

1092
01:04:11,382 --> 01:04:14,782
Speaker 3: I was a bit shocked about him coming out with

1093
01:04:15,662 --> 01:04:19,622
Speaker 3: this young fellow. And Paul said, what do you mean

1094
01:04:19,702 --> 01:04:22,222
Speaker 3: coming out of what? And would soon put two and

1095
01:04:22,262 --> 01:04:25,142
Speaker 3: two together and that was how he found out that

1096
01:04:25,222 --> 01:04:28,902
Speaker 3: Jeff was gay. And so Paul says, why didn't Jeff

1097
01:04:28,942 --> 01:04:31,062
Speaker 3: tell me that? Why didn't he come to meet with it,

1098
01:04:31,622 --> 01:04:35,942
Speaker 3: and at no point did these brothers think, oh, okay,

1099
01:04:35,982 --> 01:04:38,622
Speaker 3: that's it. That means that he killed Anthea. Far from it.

1100
01:04:39,102 --> 01:04:42,262
Speaker 3: In fact, Craig says that when he found out this news,

1101
01:04:43,062 --> 01:04:46,102
Speaker 3: he essentially said, look, so what doesn't make him a murderer.

1102
01:04:46,142 --> 01:04:49,262
Speaker 3: And he even reached out to Jeff. He called him

1103
01:04:49,742 --> 01:04:52,662
Speaker 3: and said, I've just built a new house at Morson Lakes.

1104
01:04:52,662 --> 01:04:54,742
Speaker 3: Would you like to come and see it? And Jeff said, no,

1105
01:04:54,822 --> 01:04:57,942
Speaker 3: I can't, I'm too busy with water Polo and basically

1106
01:04:58,062 --> 01:05:01,662
Speaker 3: hung up. And that was the last interaction that Jeff

1107
01:05:01,662 --> 01:05:04,622
Speaker 3: and Craig had ever had, and the Bradshaws haven't spoken

1108
01:05:04,662 --> 01:05:07,942
Speaker 3: to him for many years. And so why is his

1109
01:05:08,022 --> 01:05:11,622
Speaker 3: sexuality relevant? It's potentially not reallyan Why am I mentioning

1110
01:05:11,622 --> 01:05:14,862
Speaker 3: it in the podcast? Well we need to know did

1111
01:05:14,902 --> 01:05:17,262
Speaker 3: Jeff know he was gay when he married Anthea? And

1112
01:05:17,302 --> 01:05:19,982
Speaker 3: if he did, why did he marry Anthea? And it

1113
01:05:20,022 --> 01:05:22,582
Speaker 3: speaks to the dynamics of the relationship. I think it's

1114
01:05:22,582 --> 01:05:24,102
Speaker 3: an important thing to mention.

1115
01:05:25,142 --> 01:05:26,982
Speaker 1: Will You're right in calling it a mystery because there

1116
01:05:26,982 --> 01:05:29,702
Speaker 1: are still so many unanswered questions in this case, it's

1117
01:05:29,702 --> 01:05:31,942
Speaker 1: definitely not one we should be just closing a book

1118
01:05:31,942 --> 01:05:35,382
Speaker 1: on what's Jeff's response been to all of this and

1119
01:05:35,422 --> 01:05:37,622
Speaker 1: to the various investigations that have been going on.

1120
01:05:38,502 --> 01:05:40,902
Speaker 3: It's really important to put on the record that Jeff

1121
01:05:40,942 --> 01:05:45,862
Speaker 3: has always denied any involvement in Anthea's murder. The Brunei

1122
01:05:45,902 --> 01:05:50,982
Speaker 3: police investigation did not find enough evidence to charge him.

1123
01:05:51,382 --> 01:05:54,662
Speaker 3: South Australian police have obviously never charged him, and an

1124
01:05:54,742 --> 01:05:58,942
Speaker 3: AFP investigation did not find enough evidence to charge him,

1125
01:05:59,422 --> 01:06:02,062
Speaker 3: so in the eyes of the law, he is an

1126
01:06:02,062 --> 01:06:05,862
Speaker 3: innocent man. I've reached out to him for comment so

1127
01:06:06,022 --> 01:06:08,742
Speaker 3: far I haven't got a response at this stage. I

1128
01:06:08,782 --> 01:06:12,302
Speaker 3: know that a user with sixty minutes reached out to

1129
01:06:12,382 --> 01:06:15,342
Speaker 3: Jeff for comment a few years ago. He was polite

1130
01:06:15,382 --> 01:06:18,582
Speaker 3: on the phone and certainly indicated that he would like

1131
01:06:18,662 --> 01:06:23,062
Speaker 3: to help, but ultimately declined the request for an interview.

1132
01:06:23,662 --> 01:06:27,182
Speaker 3: And more recently, the AFP has told me that they

1133
01:06:27,262 --> 01:06:31,342
Speaker 3: reached out to Jeff for an interview for their investigation

1134
01:06:31,742 --> 01:06:35,542
Speaker 3: and he declined, which is his right to do. So

1135
01:06:35,582 --> 01:06:37,942
Speaker 3: that's where we're at at the moment, and I do

1136
01:06:37,982 --> 01:06:42,022
Speaker 3: want to maintain that whilst Jeff has been named as

1137
01:06:42,062 --> 01:06:46,102
Speaker 3: a suspect, there have also been other theories including a

1138
01:06:46,142 --> 01:06:52,102
Speaker 3: stranger seen outside of the apartment complex, including the fact

1139
01:06:52,142 --> 01:06:55,862
Speaker 3: that there were a lot of people around the apartment

1140
01:06:55,982 --> 01:06:57,462
Speaker 3: complexes at that time.

1141
01:06:58,222 --> 01:07:01,022
Speaker 1: Lastly, I just wanted to ask you what you think

1142
01:07:01,102 --> 01:07:04,342
Speaker 1: this case can teach us about grief, because I think

1143
01:07:04,382 --> 01:07:08,622
Speaker 1: listening to the Bradshaws, they say time heals wounds, their

1144
01:07:08,622 --> 01:07:12,862
Speaker 1: wounds don't feel in any way, shape or form. Thirty

1145
01:07:12,942 --> 01:07:15,982
Speaker 1: years later, their grief is so palpable you can hear

1146
01:07:16,022 --> 01:07:20,262
Speaker 1: it in their voices. How deeply has this affected the

1147
01:07:20,302 --> 01:07:22,822
Speaker 1: trajectory of their lives, and do you think that justice

1148
01:07:22,942 --> 01:07:26,942
Speaker 1: will help them to finally be able to handle that grief.

1149
01:07:27,742 --> 01:07:30,982
Speaker 3: Firstly, it's absolutely ruined their lives. They haven't been the same.

1150
01:07:31,062 --> 01:07:34,542
Speaker 3: Their lives have been turned upside down, mental health problems,

1151
01:07:35,022 --> 01:07:39,702
Speaker 3: suicidal thoughts, alcohol problems. They've gone from being a happy

1152
01:07:39,822 --> 01:07:45,982
Speaker 3: suburban family to being completely ruined. And I don't think

1153
01:07:46,022 --> 01:07:48,902
Speaker 3: we can even begin to imagine what it would be like.

1154
01:07:49,302 --> 01:07:51,982
Speaker 3: I've got a sister. If she was one moment, I'm

1155
01:07:52,062 --> 01:07:54,822
Speaker 3: m seeing her wedding, the next moment, I'm getting a

1156
01:07:54,862 --> 01:07:59,742
Speaker 3: phone call to say that she'd been murdered. Unthinkable. There's that,

1157
01:08:00,942 --> 01:08:03,902
Speaker 3: and that's the worst part, right that's the worst part.

1158
01:08:03,942 --> 01:08:07,702
Speaker 3: They've lost their sister, they've lost their daughter. But I

1159
01:08:07,742 --> 01:08:13,542
Speaker 3: think what has really destroyed them is this ongoing fight

1160
01:08:13,662 --> 01:08:17,262
Speaker 3: for justice and the frustration of that and that anger

1161
01:08:18,102 --> 01:08:20,982
Speaker 3: that that would bring. And that's what I think really

1162
01:08:21,182 --> 01:08:24,742
Speaker 3: comes out when you speak to them. They want whoever

1163
01:08:25,062 --> 01:08:28,662
Speaker 3: was responsible to suffer in the way that they have suffered.

1164
01:08:29,822 --> 01:08:33,822
Speaker 3: And I've spoken to the former victim's Rights commissioner here

1165
01:08:33,822 --> 01:08:36,262
Speaker 3: in South Australia who had some strong things to say

1166
01:08:36,302 --> 01:08:39,342
Speaker 3: on this, and he said that families don't ever move

1167
01:08:39,382 --> 01:08:43,142
Speaker 3: on from these things. You know, time doesn't really heal wounds.

1168
01:08:43,182 --> 01:08:46,342
Speaker 3: People just learn how to live with what's happened to them.

1169
01:08:46,662 --> 01:08:51,502
Speaker 3: And he's made the point of saying that these families

1170
01:08:51,502 --> 01:08:55,222
Speaker 3: shouldn't be expected to move on afterwards and just to

1171
01:08:55,382 --> 01:08:59,342
Speaker 3: drop the investigation and think this isn't getting anywhere, Let's

1172
01:08:59,342 --> 01:09:02,262
Speaker 3: go on with our lives. Well, I think it's offensive

1173
01:09:02,302 --> 01:09:04,782
Speaker 3: when people say that to them, because it's not for

1174
01:09:04,862 --> 01:09:09,582
Speaker 3: other people to decide that. And when I made inquiries

1175
01:09:10,182 --> 01:09:14,982
Speaker 3: with witnesses and investigators, some of them said they've got

1176
01:09:14,982 --> 01:09:18,382
Speaker 3: to get on with their lives. Anthea wouldn't have wanted this. Well,

1177
01:09:18,462 --> 01:09:23,382
Speaker 3: I even question that because Anthea obviously knew who killed her.

1178
01:09:24,142 --> 01:09:25,582
Speaker 3: There are people that have said to me anthey will

1179
01:09:25,622 --> 01:09:28,022
Speaker 3: be saying go and get them. It's not good enough

1180
01:09:28,022 --> 01:09:30,302
Speaker 3: to say that the family should be expected to move

1181
01:09:30,342 --> 01:09:33,622
Speaker 3: on because they're never going to have any kind of

1182
01:09:33,702 --> 01:09:37,262
Speaker 3: peace until the case is solved. And that's for them

1183
01:09:37,302 --> 01:09:42,862
Speaker 3: to decide. And so if there are reasons why things

1184
01:09:42,942 --> 01:09:46,262
Speaker 3: can't be investigated further, I mean there are people I

1185
01:09:46,422 --> 01:09:50,262
Speaker 3: approached for interview for the podcast who said no, and

1186
01:09:50,502 --> 01:09:53,862
Speaker 3: that's completely fine. People have their reasons for that. I

1187
01:09:53,902 --> 01:09:56,982
Speaker 3: just don't want one of those reasons to be that

1188
01:09:57,102 --> 01:10:00,022
Speaker 3: the family should just move on and that it's best

1189
01:10:00,062 --> 01:10:02,702
Speaker 3: for the family, because it's not for us to decide

1190
01:10:02,862 --> 01:10:04,022
Speaker 3: what's best for the family.

1191
01:10:09,142 --> 01:10:11,502
Speaker 1: Thanks to Ben for assisting us to tell this story.

1192
01:10:11,982 --> 01:10:15,302
Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations is a Mumma mea podcast hosted and

1193
01:10:15,342 --> 01:10:19,022
Speaker 1: produced by me Jemma Bass, with audio design by Scott Stronik.

1194
01:10:19,542 --> 01:10:23,582
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is lif Proud. Thanks so much for listening.

1195
01:10:23,902 --> 01:10:26,902
Speaker 1: I'll be back next week with another True Crime Conversation.

1196
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