1 00:00:06,552 --> 00:00:10,072 Speaker 1: True crime conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and 2 00:00:10,152 --> 00:00:16,631 Speaker 1: waters that this podcast was recorded on. When you hit 3 00:00:16,752 --> 00:00:21,311 Speaker 1: that confusing and vulnerable teenage year's window, a lot is happening. 4 00:00:21,752 --> 00:00:26,512 Speaker 1: You're growing out of childhood into something else. Hormones are raging, 5 00:00:26,592 --> 00:00:30,112 Speaker 1: and your body, voice, and mental abilities are all evolving 6 00:00:30,432 --> 00:00:32,912 Speaker 1: into what will be a giant leap forward for you, 7 00:00:33,152 --> 00:00:36,632 Speaker 1: something you haven't experienced since those intense first months after 8 00:00:36,672 --> 00:00:38,592 Speaker 1: you even enter the world, and you adjust to life 9 00:00:38,632 --> 00:00:41,992 Speaker 1: on the outside. And while you're going through this epic change, 10 00:00:42,031 --> 00:00:45,472 Speaker 1: so are your peers, and sometimes that can lead to conflict. 11 00:00:46,031 --> 00:00:48,552 Speaker 2: This is the age where bullying can start to ramp. 12 00:00:48,431 --> 00:00:54,911 Speaker 1: Up, social interactions can become more awkward, and feelings can intensify. 13 00:00:55,312 --> 00:00:59,312 Speaker 1: Sometimes it's quite hard to understand teenage behavior, the arguments, 14 00:00:59,432 --> 00:01:01,672 Speaker 1: the defiance, the disdain. 15 00:01:01,272 --> 00:01:03,352 Speaker 2: Towards parents as they challenge their authority. 16 00:01:04,152 --> 00:01:08,152 Speaker 1: But what if that behavior becomes more than typical teen evolution. 17 00:01:08,392 --> 00:01:13,752 Speaker 1: What if that behavior becomes murderous. In two thousand and one, 18 00:01:13,911 --> 00:01:16,152 Speaker 1: three year old Courtney Morley Clarke was growing up on 19 00:01:16,152 --> 00:01:19,032 Speaker 1: the New South Wales central Coast. It's January twenty eighth 20 00:01:19,032 --> 00:01:21,991 Speaker 1: and Courtney a tiny blondhaired little girl, who lived with 21 00:01:22,032 --> 00:01:24,632 Speaker 1: her older brother and parents, was put to bed around 22 00:01:24,631 --> 00:01:28,712 Speaker 1: eight thirty pm. As is typical in Australia in January, 23 00:01:28,792 --> 00:01:31,792 Speaker 1: it was hot, so her parents had left the main 24 00:01:31,872 --> 00:01:34,351 Speaker 1: doors of the house open, but had shut and locked 25 00:01:34,392 --> 00:01:36,312 Speaker 1: the screen doors to allow the cooler night air to 26 00:01:36,312 --> 00:01:37,952 Speaker 1: circulate through the houses they slept. 27 00:01:39,032 --> 00:01:41,112 Speaker 2: Her mum checked in on her two children. 28 00:01:40,831 --> 00:01:43,672 Speaker 1: Around one am to find her little daughter sleeping soundly 29 00:01:43,712 --> 00:01:46,112 Speaker 1: in the bunk that she shared with her brother. But 30 00:01:46,152 --> 00:01:48,712 Speaker 1: when her dad got up around seven that morning, he 31 00:01:48,792 --> 00:01:52,272 Speaker 1: quickly notices that the screen door and sidegate are wide open. 32 00:01:53,312 --> 00:01:56,512 Speaker 1: He raced into his children's room and found Courtney's bed empty. 33 00:01:57,112 --> 00:02:00,432 Speaker 1: The rail of the bed was down. Could Courtney have 34 00:02:00,472 --> 00:02:04,752 Speaker 1: done that herself? She's still so little. He raced outside, 35 00:02:04,752 --> 00:02:08,431 Speaker 1: thinking maybe she'd somehow gotten herself up, let herself outside 36 00:02:08,552 --> 00:02:12,232 Speaker 1: and was now out there wandering alone. He found her ninety, 37 00:02:12,592 --> 00:02:15,112 Speaker 1: lying on the ground near the gate. He checked the 38 00:02:15,192 --> 00:02:18,872 Speaker 1: road the bushes nearby, but Courtney was nowhere to be seen. 39 00:02:19,832 --> 00:02:21,272 Speaker 2: He would very. 40 00:02:21,072 --> 00:02:25,032 Speaker 1: Soon have his heart broken, not only finding out that 41 00:02:25,072 --> 00:02:27,912 Speaker 1: his dear little Courtney was dead, but that her killer 42 00:02:28,432 --> 00:02:38,672 Speaker 1: was a child too. I'm Claire Murphy and This is 43 00:02:38,712 --> 00:02:42,672 Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring the world's most notorious 44 00:02:42,712 --> 00:02:45,272 Speaker 1: crimes by speaking to the people who know the most 45 00:02:45,272 --> 00:02:48,752 Speaker 1: about them. On the morning that Courtney was discovered missing, 46 00:02:48,992 --> 00:02:51,672 Speaker 1: their neighbors, the parents of an adopted son who we 47 00:02:51,752 --> 00:02:55,152 Speaker 1: cannot identify, told police that the boy had been absent 48 00:02:55,192 --> 00:02:57,472 Speaker 1: from their home in the early hours of that morning. 49 00:02:57,992 --> 00:02:59,912 Speaker 1: His mum had realized it when she'd gotten up and 50 00:02:59,952 --> 00:03:02,592 Speaker 1: found the back door of their house wide open and 51 00:03:02,632 --> 00:03:05,312 Speaker 1: the thirteen year old not in his bed. The father 52 00:03:05,392 --> 00:03:07,232 Speaker 1: drove around looking for him his son, but he couldn't 53 00:03:07,232 --> 00:03:10,272 Speaker 1: find him anywhere. He was relieved when he finally returned 54 00:03:10,312 --> 00:03:13,592 Speaker 1: to the house just before three am through his sister's window. 55 00:03:14,352 --> 00:03:15,952 Speaker 1: He was wearing only a pair of shorts, and he 56 00:03:15,992 --> 00:03:17,992 Speaker 1: told his father that he'd been out walking and playing 57 00:03:18,032 --> 00:03:21,392 Speaker 1: with his pet duck, but on searching their backyard, they 58 00:03:21,392 --> 00:03:24,151 Speaker 1: found his clothes had been hidden in an alcove under 59 00:03:24,152 --> 00:03:27,512 Speaker 1: their swimming pool. His father and the police confronted him 60 00:03:27,552 --> 00:03:30,472 Speaker 1: about the whereabouts of little Courtney, to which he denied 61 00:03:30,512 --> 00:03:34,472 Speaker 1: having any knowledge, but he did eventually admit that he'd 62 00:03:34,512 --> 00:03:36,872 Speaker 1: seen her while he was out walking, offering to lead 63 00:03:36,912 --> 00:03:40,152 Speaker 1: police to a cave where he'd left her sleeping. A 64 00:03:40,192 --> 00:03:42,472 Speaker 1: search of the area failed to locate her, as the 65 00:03:42,472 --> 00:03:45,832 Speaker 1: boy gave contradictory accounts of what had actually happened that night. 66 00:03:46,632 --> 00:03:49,272 Speaker 1: It was only after police, who had been desperately searching 67 00:03:49,272 --> 00:03:52,072 Speaker 1: the areas pointed out by the boy, pleaded with him 68 00:03:52,152 --> 00:03:54,712 Speaker 1: to tell them where she really was, did he finally 69 00:03:54,792 --> 00:03:58,912 Speaker 1: reveal what he'd done. The boy, known in the courts 70 00:03:58,952 --> 00:04:02,432 Speaker 1: only as SLD, had gone to the neighbor's house, slashed 71 00:04:02,472 --> 00:04:05,832 Speaker 1: open their screen door, and gone into the children's room. 72 00:04:06,432 --> 00:04:08,792 Speaker 1: He told police that he had initially done so to 73 00:04:08,832 --> 00:04:11,352 Speaker 1: steal computer gangs after the boy who lived there had 74 00:04:11,352 --> 00:04:13,672 Speaker 1: bragged about having them, but when he saw the little 75 00:04:13,672 --> 00:04:17,272 Speaker 1: sister he chose to take her for ransom instead. He 76 00:04:17,351 --> 00:04:20,152 Speaker 1: later admitted that he had actually intended to kill the 77 00:04:20,192 --> 00:04:23,112 Speaker 1: older brother, who he claimed was bullying him at scouts group, 78 00:04:23,152 --> 00:04:25,791 Speaker 1: along with two others who he also planned to murder 79 00:04:25,792 --> 00:04:30,112 Speaker 1: in time. He told detectives that he'd removed the little 80 00:04:30,112 --> 00:04:32,632 Speaker 1: girl's nappy while she was still sleeping in her bed, 81 00:04:33,152 --> 00:04:34,872 Speaker 1: and then he removed the rest of her clothes. Later, 82 00:04:35,192 --> 00:04:37,152 Speaker 1: in order to find a good place to stab her. 83 00:04:37,872 --> 00:04:40,512 Speaker 1: He carried her towards his home, laying her down on 84 00:04:40,552 --> 00:04:43,672 Speaker 1: a concrete driveway, where he stabbed her once in the chest, 85 00:04:44,072 --> 00:04:45,952 Speaker 1: covering her mouth and nose with his hand when she 86 00:04:46,032 --> 00:04:49,832 Speaker 1: cried out in pain. After she stopped struggling, he took 87 00:04:49,832 --> 00:04:52,752 Speaker 1: her body and threw her up an embankment, covering her 88 00:04:52,792 --> 00:04:55,352 Speaker 1: with the long grass, before returning to his home, washing 89 00:04:55,432 --> 00:04:59,472 Speaker 1: up and changing his clothes before heading back inside. He 90 00:04:59,512 --> 00:05:02,912 Speaker 1: commented during his interview with police that once he'd killed 91 00:05:03,032 --> 00:05:06,351 Speaker 1: one person, he expected it would make it easier to 92 00:05:06,392 --> 00:05:08,512 Speaker 1: kill the next one, and then the one after that. 93 00:05:10,192 --> 00:05:14,392 Speaker 1: SLD would become Australia's youngest ever convicted murderer, and had 94 00:05:14,392 --> 00:05:16,192 Speaker 1: he been an adult at the time of his crime, 95 00:05:16,512 --> 00:05:19,512 Speaker 1: he would have probably been sentenced to the maximum term available, 96 00:05:19,552 --> 00:05:23,592 Speaker 1: facing life behind bars, but he wasn't. He was thirteen 97 00:05:23,672 --> 00:05:27,712 Speaker 1: years and ten months old. After spending twenty two years 98 00:05:27,712 --> 00:05:31,192 Speaker 1: behind bars, SLD was released into the community in twenty 99 00:05:31,232 --> 00:05:35,192 Speaker 1: twenty three under line of side supervision, an NDIS worker 100 00:05:35,272 --> 00:05:38,792 Speaker 1: watching his every move, although a witness claimed during one 101 00:05:38,832 --> 00:05:40,912 Speaker 1: incident the worker was seen watching his. 102 00:05:40,952 --> 00:05:42,832 Speaker 2: Phone rather than his charge. 103 00:05:43,232 --> 00:05:46,272 Speaker 1: Over ninety five days, the now thirty eight year old 104 00:05:46,312 --> 00:05:50,832 Speaker 1: SLD approached nearly two hundred women. The court told he 105 00:05:50,952 --> 00:05:54,351 Speaker 1: was desperate to lose his virginity. He sometimes even approached 106 00:05:54,392 --> 00:05:56,872 Speaker 1: women with their young children in tow and in one 107 00:05:56,912 --> 00:05:59,232 Speaker 1: instance he approached a woman who was getting her young 108 00:05:59,312 --> 00:06:02,552 Speaker 1: son chained at an outdoor shower. This was witnessed by 109 00:06:02,552 --> 00:06:06,072 Speaker 1: an undercover police officer who advised of the breach. SLD 110 00:06:06,192 --> 00:06:09,592 Speaker 1: was placed back behind bars. Psychiatric reports showed he was 111 00:06:09,592 --> 00:06:14,592 Speaker 1: suffering from mental health issues, including delayed maturation and institutionalization 112 00:06:15,152 --> 00:06:17,992 Speaker 1: that diagnosed him with a severe personality disorder that led 113 00:06:17,992 --> 00:06:21,512 Speaker 1: to him being completely self centered and without the ability 114 00:06:21,512 --> 00:06:25,592 Speaker 1: to show empathy. He served another thirteen months, but earlier 115 00:06:25,632 --> 00:06:29,392 Speaker 1: this year, despite an application to detain him further the 116 00:06:29,432 --> 00:06:32,872 Speaker 1: New South Wales government, citing that SLD continued to show 117 00:06:32,952 --> 00:06:37,072 Speaker 1: violent tendencies, has shared plans to remove his electronic monitoring device, 118 00:06:37,432 --> 00:06:41,912 Speaker 1: and had attacked prison staff while incarcerated, the Supreme Court refused. 119 00:06:42,512 --> 00:06:45,351 Speaker 1: The Court justice noted the risk for sexual offense and 120 00:06:45,392 --> 00:06:48,112 Speaker 1: obsessive fixation on those he believed to have wronged him, 121 00:06:48,552 --> 00:06:51,392 Speaker 1: including towards the off duty officer who'd reported his breaches 122 00:06:51,832 --> 00:06:54,712 Speaker 1: were concerning, but that he was not satisfied to a 123 00:06:54,792 --> 00:06:59,032 Speaker 1: high degree of probability that the threshold required under legislation 124 00:06:59,152 --> 00:07:02,152 Speaker 1: to impose a continuing detention order had been met. 125 00:07:03,112 --> 00:07:04,592 Speaker 2: He will now be allowed back out. 126 00:07:04,472 --> 00:07:08,072 Speaker 1: Into the community, monitored sure, but we can never know 127 00:07:08,152 --> 00:07:11,632 Speaker 1: his true identity, the suppression order remaining in place due 128 00:07:11,632 --> 00:07:14,752 Speaker 1: to his offense occurring when he was a minor. Criminal 129 00:07:14,832 --> 00:07:17,752 Speaker 1: psychologist Tim Watson Monroe, the co host of the Motive 130 00:07:17,792 --> 00:07:21,352 Speaker 1: and Method podcast, has spent forty years analyzing the minds 131 00:07:21,352 --> 00:07:24,512 Speaker 1: of some of the country's worst criminals, from murderers to 132 00:07:24,672 --> 00:07:29,232 Speaker 1: sex offenders, terrorists, and those who have abducted and tortured children. 133 00:07:29,792 --> 00:07:33,032 Speaker 1: He's peeked into the thoughts of evil. He joins us 134 00:07:33,072 --> 00:07:35,992 Speaker 1: now to try and unpack the thinking of SLD and 135 00:07:36,032 --> 00:07:42,072 Speaker 1: whether he can ever truly adjust back into the real world. Tim, 136 00:07:42,152 --> 00:07:44,312 Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us on True Crime 137 00:07:44,312 --> 00:07:49,032 Speaker 1: Conversations today. We are speaking about the case of SLD, 138 00:07:49,232 --> 00:07:52,432 Speaker 1: who we cannot identify due to the fact that he 139 00:07:52,512 --> 00:07:55,272 Speaker 1: was a minor at the time of his offending. But 140 00:07:55,792 --> 00:07:58,312 Speaker 1: I wanted to get some idea from you first in 141 00:07:58,432 --> 00:08:01,512 Speaker 1: your career, like do you remember the first time you 142 00:08:01,552 --> 00:08:04,792 Speaker 1: sat down with a murderer to try and figure out, 143 00:08:05,472 --> 00:08:07,712 Speaker 1: like who they are and why they had done what 144 00:08:07,752 --> 00:08:11,552 Speaker 1: they had done, Like, do you remember those first moments 145 00:08:11,552 --> 00:08:14,432 Speaker 1: that you spent trying to understand people who do evil? 146 00:08:14,912 --> 00:08:15,312 Speaker 1: I do. 147 00:08:15,512 --> 00:08:20,432 Speaker 3: I'm blessed or cursed with an extraordinary memory. I can 148 00:08:21,192 --> 00:08:25,872 Speaker 3: recall my first day at work as the resident psychologist 149 00:08:25,912 --> 00:08:29,472 Speaker 3: at Paramount of Jail. It was the fourteenth of August 150 00:08:29,552 --> 00:08:33,151 Speaker 3: nineteen seventy eighth, so we're getting pretty close to the 151 00:08:33,192 --> 00:08:37,072 Speaker 3: forty seven, forty eight year anniversary. I can remember the 152 00:08:37,151 --> 00:08:40,912 Speaker 3: ly soul, the smells of the wolf whistles, and Paramount 153 00:08:40,952 --> 00:08:44,872 Speaker 3: of Jail in those days it's been decommissioned. I was 154 00:08:44,952 --> 00:08:50,432 Speaker 3: a multi recidiverse maximum security prison, which in essence meant 155 00:08:50,472 --> 00:08:53,872 Speaker 3: it was an end of the line prison for intractable prisoners, 156 00:08:53,912 --> 00:08:57,432 Speaker 3: people that had nowhere else to go. When they closed 157 00:08:57,432 --> 00:09:03,912 Speaker 3: down could Tingle, which was the maximum security super max 158 00:09:04,032 --> 00:09:07,792 Speaker 3: jail really in Sidney Knee, all of those people went 159 00:09:07,832 --> 00:09:10,552 Speaker 3: to Paramattaga. I was twenty five, so I was pretty 160 00:09:10,592 --> 00:09:15,072 Speaker 3: grand and day one I was introduced to a guy 161 00:09:15,072 --> 00:09:18,552 Speaker 3: who'd been convicted of murder. And I can remember how 162 00:09:18,592 --> 00:09:22,552 Speaker 3: it affected me because I'd come from a fairly gentrified background. 163 00:09:22,672 --> 00:09:26,112 Speaker 3: You know, my father's an academic I studied classical music, 164 00:09:26,152 --> 00:09:29,072 Speaker 3: and here I am in the worst jail in Australia 165 00:09:29,072 --> 00:09:31,112 Speaker 3: of the age of twenty five. I'd never met a 166 00:09:31,192 --> 00:09:34,112 Speaker 3: murderer before, and here we go, We've got a guy 167 00:09:34,152 --> 00:09:36,992 Speaker 3: across the other side of my desk. I didn't know 168 00:09:37,032 --> 00:09:39,312 Speaker 3: what to expect. What I found was he was just 169 00:09:39,552 --> 00:09:44,232 Speaker 3: like most people. He was an ordinary guy. He'd committed 170 00:09:44,272 --> 00:09:47,912 Speaker 3: other crimes, nothing as serious as that, under the influence 171 00:09:47,952 --> 00:09:51,232 Speaker 3: of drugs, he'd killed somebody. And there he was. He 172 00:09:51,272 --> 00:09:54,072 Speaker 3: was looking at a life sentence. And back in those 173 00:09:54,192 --> 00:09:57,432 Speaker 3: days they didn't have minimum terms. I mean, on average 174 00:09:57,472 --> 00:10:00,232 Speaker 3: people did about fourteen years, but it was not guaranteed. 175 00:10:00,992 --> 00:10:03,072 Speaker 3: He was subject to good behavior and all the rest 176 00:10:03,112 --> 00:10:05,912 Speaker 3: of it. So he was in the beginning of his sentence. 177 00:10:05,912 --> 00:10:08,632 Speaker 3: He had been there for about three years. He couldn't 178 00:10:08,672 --> 00:10:10,952 Speaker 3: go anywhere else because of the magnitude of the conviction. 179 00:10:11,752 --> 00:10:14,792 Speaker 3: He had to stay in maximum security. But he was ordinarily, 180 00:10:14,872 --> 00:10:18,392 Speaker 3: you know, he didn't have horns, he was plant respectful. 181 00:10:18,472 --> 00:10:21,192 Speaker 3: I didn't feel that I was in any sense of danger. 182 00:10:21,952 --> 00:10:25,672 Speaker 1: Did you ever have to treat anyone who was very young, like, 183 00:10:25,712 --> 00:10:27,352 Speaker 1: who do you think the youngest person was? 184 00:10:27,392 --> 00:10:28,992 Speaker 2: You've spoken to across your career. 185 00:10:28,992 --> 00:10:30,832 Speaker 1: I mean, maybe not as young as SLD, who was 186 00:10:30,872 --> 00:10:33,552 Speaker 1: thirteen at the time, but how young have you been 187 00:10:33,592 --> 00:10:36,752 Speaker 1: treating people who've committed some pretty heinous crimes. 188 00:10:37,352 --> 00:10:40,792 Speaker 3: Well, Paramount of Jarla, course was an adult prison. But 189 00:10:40,952 --> 00:10:43,992 Speaker 3: after I left there, I moved to Melvin and I 190 00:10:44,072 --> 00:10:48,031 Speaker 3: started doing assessments for courts and the youngest person I've 191 00:10:48,072 --> 00:10:52,192 Speaker 3: assessed was actually charged with murder. I can't recall his name. 192 00:10:53,192 --> 00:10:55,391 Speaker 3: It was a bit of a thrill kill where a 193 00:10:55,472 --> 00:10:59,672 Speaker 3: taxi driver was murdered in the nineties, and I went 194 00:10:59,712 --> 00:11:02,432 Speaker 3: out to see him at what was known then as 195 00:11:02,472 --> 00:11:05,391 Speaker 3: the Trani Youth Training Center. I think he was about 196 00:11:05,432 --> 00:11:09,192 Speaker 3: thirteen or fourteen years page. I was staggered by the 197 00:11:09,232 --> 00:11:13,872 Speaker 3: magnitude of the crime, and I still remember that interaction. 198 00:11:13,952 --> 00:11:16,152 Speaker 3: I was staggered by the lack of empathy and remorse, 199 00:11:16,472 --> 00:11:18,672 Speaker 3: which I put down to being just young and silly 200 00:11:18,792 --> 00:11:21,912 Speaker 3: without trivializing what he had done. But he clearly didn't 201 00:11:21,912 --> 00:11:25,151 Speaker 3: have a conceptual grasp with the magnitude of what he 202 00:11:25,192 --> 00:11:27,272 Speaker 3: had done and the consequences arising from that. 203 00:11:28,352 --> 00:11:30,872 Speaker 1: Well, with what you know of the case of SLD 204 00:11:30,952 --> 00:11:35,232 Speaker 1: and the murder of Courtney Morley, Clark, how could you 205 00:11:35,312 --> 00:11:38,552 Speaker 1: help us understand what might push a thirteen year old 206 00:11:38,632 --> 00:11:41,512 Speaker 1: boy to commit murder? And in this case, this was 207 00:11:41,552 --> 00:11:44,192 Speaker 1: not a thrill kill. This was seemingly in cold blood. 208 00:11:44,912 --> 00:11:50,192 Speaker 3: Well, I didn't examine this person, but clearly, as the 209 00:11:51,112 --> 00:11:55,272 Speaker 3: punishment reflected, there wasn't a mental health defense to it. 210 00:11:55,672 --> 00:11:58,952 Speaker 3: In other words, he was in touch with reality. Notwithstanding 211 00:11:58,992 --> 00:12:01,832 Speaker 3: his age, he clearly knew what he was doing and 212 00:12:01,912 --> 00:12:09,712 Speaker 3: he suffered the consequences of that anger opportunity. Speaking more 213 00:12:09,752 --> 00:12:13,032 Speaker 3: general terms, with these sorts of crimes, they're often preceded 214 00:12:13,072 --> 00:12:16,672 Speaker 3: by fantasies of coin and at some point they break 215 00:12:16,712 --> 00:12:21,352 Speaker 3: for the fantasy, and when the opportunity presents itself, they 216 00:12:21,512 --> 00:12:22,552 Speaker 3: act on that fantasy. 217 00:12:23,112 --> 00:12:25,712 Speaker 1: Well, can we talk about how to identify this because 218 00:12:26,512 --> 00:12:28,912 Speaker 1: reading through the court documents on this, his family doesn't 219 00:12:28,952 --> 00:12:31,752 Speaker 1: really say whether they'd seen any signs of behaviors that 220 00:12:31,792 --> 00:12:35,712 Speaker 1: were concerning before Courtney's murder, But there is a documented 221 00:12:35,752 --> 00:12:38,672 Speaker 1: instance where he'd taken another young girl, and this was 222 00:12:38,752 --> 00:12:41,832 Speaker 1: just a week before Courtney was murdered, at a unit 223 00:12:41,832 --> 00:12:44,232 Speaker 1: at a holiday result where he'd been staying with his family, 224 00:12:44,312 --> 00:12:47,552 Speaker 1: and he threatened to kill her unless she showed him 225 00:12:47,552 --> 00:12:49,872 Speaker 1: her private parts, which she did, and then he took 226 00:12:49,912 --> 00:12:52,872 Speaker 1: her back to her family. Like, how do you assess 227 00:12:52,872 --> 00:12:55,432 Speaker 1: if that has happened a week before. That's a major 228 00:12:55,632 --> 00:12:59,832 Speaker 1: escalation in just seven days time. Like if you, as 229 00:12:59,872 --> 00:13:03,792 Speaker 1: a parent were told that that your child had done that, Like, 230 00:13:04,032 --> 00:13:06,112 Speaker 1: just how much intervention should you have brought in at 231 00:13:06,152 --> 00:13:08,992 Speaker 1: that time? And can that be a sign of something 232 00:13:09,112 --> 00:13:10,432 Speaker 1: to escalate down the track. 233 00:13:10,832 --> 00:13:12,912 Speaker 3: Well, the first point I'd make is there's clearly a 234 00:13:12,952 --> 00:13:17,752 Speaker 3: sexual component. That's a huge red flag. You've got shelish 235 00:13:17,752 --> 00:13:24,032 Speaker 3: your private parts and abduction, highly dangerous situation, and a 236 00:13:24,072 --> 00:13:27,992 Speaker 3: week later, you know, this enormous tragedy occurs. I'm not 237 00:13:28,072 --> 00:13:30,712 Speaker 3: critical of the parents who would expect that to occur, 238 00:13:30,912 --> 00:13:34,992 Speaker 3: but at the very least, I think you'd want to 239 00:13:35,032 --> 00:13:37,592 Speaker 3: have the child assess said doctor, see what's going on, 240 00:13:38,192 --> 00:13:41,391 Speaker 3: because there's some underlying drivers that have led to that episode, 241 00:13:42,192 --> 00:13:46,832 Speaker 3: and in the absence of intervention it escalated into a murder. 242 00:13:47,152 --> 00:13:49,232 Speaker 1: I guess we have to take into account too that 243 00:13:49,312 --> 00:13:52,952 Speaker 1: this was happening sort of late January, it's still essentially 244 00:13:53,032 --> 00:13:56,872 Speaker 1: the school holiday period. There is you know, access to 245 00:13:56,952 --> 00:14:01,312 Speaker 1: mental health services are not always easy in the Australian 246 00:14:01,392 --> 00:14:04,552 Speaker 1: health system. And you know the fact that this escalated 247 00:14:04,592 --> 00:14:07,872 Speaker 1: over just a week been very difficult for his family 248 00:14:07,952 --> 00:14:10,432 Speaker 1: to get the help that he needed in that time, right, 249 00:14:10,672 --> 00:14:11,032 Speaker 1: I agree. 250 00:14:11,072 --> 00:14:14,792 Speaker 3: I'm not critical of the family at all, but I 251 00:14:14,872 --> 00:14:19,112 Speaker 3: guess as a more general proposition, if a child does that, 252 00:14:19,752 --> 00:14:22,952 Speaker 3: you would want to get them in to see somebody expeditiously. 253 00:14:23,632 --> 00:14:27,912 Speaker 1: Assessment and treatment of juvenile offenders now, this often posts 254 00:14:27,912 --> 00:14:30,632 Speaker 1: some pretty unique challenges when you compare it to adults 255 00:14:30,752 --> 00:14:33,112 Speaker 1: entering the system, especially when the crime is something as 256 00:14:33,152 --> 00:14:37,632 Speaker 1: serious as murder. Could you explain how mental health evaluations 257 00:14:37,632 --> 00:14:42,592 Speaker 1: and approaches do differ between child offenders and what professionals 258 00:14:42,672 --> 00:14:46,432 Speaker 1: must consider in cases like SLDs, especially as you mentioned, 259 00:14:47,232 --> 00:14:50,752 Speaker 1: sometimes these crimes are done because children are children and 260 00:14:50,752 --> 00:14:54,192 Speaker 1: don't quite understand the consequences of what they've done. Like, 261 00:14:54,312 --> 00:14:57,672 Speaker 1: how do you approach a child offender as opposed to 262 00:14:57,712 --> 00:14:58,552 Speaker 1: an adult defender. 263 00:14:59,192 --> 00:15:02,912 Speaker 3: Well, it has to be with informed consent through the family, 264 00:15:02,952 --> 00:15:06,832 Speaker 3: the parents. If they don't have a protective person there, 265 00:15:06,832 --> 00:15:09,192 Speaker 3: there should be someone there. This is in terms of 266 00:15:09,192 --> 00:15:12,232 Speaker 3: being questioned by the police. There has to be a 267 00:15:12,272 --> 00:15:15,992 Speaker 3: spirit of cooperation. I worked for a time at the 268 00:15:16,192 --> 00:15:20,792 Speaker 3: Melbourne Children's Court Clinic a long time ago, highly professional organization, 269 00:15:21,512 --> 00:15:25,872 Speaker 3: very skilled practitioners there. The process itself, it's not that different, 270 00:15:25,912 --> 00:15:28,432 Speaker 3: it's just how you handle it. You get a history 271 00:15:29,192 --> 00:15:32,832 Speaker 3: where there's a child involved, where they may be unable 272 00:15:32,832 --> 00:15:36,952 Speaker 3: to articulate that history in a comprehensive way. You speak 273 00:15:36,992 --> 00:15:40,152 Speaker 3: to significant others in the person's life. Now that may 274 00:15:40,152 --> 00:15:44,272 Speaker 3: be parents, it may be foster care as depending on 275 00:15:44,352 --> 00:15:47,312 Speaker 3: who those people may be. You would request a lot 276 00:15:47,352 --> 00:15:51,512 Speaker 3: of documentation surrounding the individual. Have they been in trouble 277 00:15:51,632 --> 00:15:56,912 Speaker 3: before in terms of juvenile offending, Do they have any 278 00:15:56,952 --> 00:16:02,272 Speaker 3: history of psychological disturbance? Do they have an intellectual disability? 279 00:16:02,352 --> 00:16:05,592 Speaker 3: Is that documented or if it's red flag to you. 280 00:16:05,632 --> 00:16:08,752 Speaker 3: As a practice, you would obviously test to see whether 281 00:16:08,792 --> 00:16:11,392 Speaker 3: they have a lower IQ because that's relevant to the 282 00:16:11,432 --> 00:16:15,632 Speaker 3: issue of intent. If somebody doesn't understand the nature of 283 00:16:15,672 --> 00:16:19,312 Speaker 3: what they're doing and the consequences beyond their age, just 284 00:16:19,352 --> 00:16:22,792 Speaker 3: because they'll never get it, that needs to be looked 285 00:16:22,792 --> 00:16:25,032 Speaker 3: at as well. So I guess what you're looking at 286 00:16:25,232 --> 00:16:29,632 Speaker 3: is as much collateral informative data as you can obtain, 287 00:16:30,152 --> 00:16:36,272 Speaker 3: medical reports, school reports, discussions with parents, discussions with school 288 00:16:36,272 --> 00:16:39,952 Speaker 3: teachers or school counselors if they saw those individuals, so 289 00:16:40,032 --> 00:16:44,232 Speaker 3: that you get a pretty broad spectrum of information to 290 00:16:44,312 --> 00:16:46,872 Speaker 3: enable you to formulate an opinion about the individual. 291 00:16:47,912 --> 00:16:50,912 Speaker 1: Can you explain to us what delayed maturation is in 292 00:16:50,952 --> 00:16:53,912 Speaker 1: someone who's been incarcerated since they were very, very young, 293 00:16:53,992 --> 00:16:56,832 Speaker 1: And this has been brought up in other cases where 294 00:16:56,992 --> 00:16:59,872 Speaker 1: say like John Venables, for example in the UK, who 295 00:16:59,912 --> 00:17:03,632 Speaker 1: was only ten years old when he and his friend 296 00:17:03,872 --> 00:17:06,831 Speaker 1: murdered James Boulger who was just two, and he was 297 00:17:06,831 --> 00:17:08,671 Speaker 1: in prison for a very long time and then was 298 00:17:08,712 --> 00:17:11,951 Speaker 1: released and has ended up back in jail for child 299 00:17:12,032 --> 00:17:16,232 Speaker 1: sex material exploitation offenses and a lot of the discussion 300 00:17:16,272 --> 00:17:19,591 Speaker 1: is around him experiencing delayed maturation, and this has been 301 00:17:19,631 --> 00:17:22,552 Speaker 1: brought up in SLD's cases. Well, can just explain to 302 00:17:22,591 --> 00:17:25,752 Speaker 1: us what that means if someone is experiencing that from 303 00:17:25,752 --> 00:17:27,432 Speaker 1: having been incarcerated from such a. 304 00:17:27,311 --> 00:17:31,552 Speaker 3: Young age, Well, their world is very defined normally in 305 00:17:31,591 --> 00:17:34,552 Speaker 3: the progression of life, you go to school, you acquire 306 00:17:34,671 --> 00:17:39,591 Speaker 3: social skills, you bend and shape your behaviors accordingly. You 307 00:17:39,671 --> 00:17:43,351 Speaker 3: have an education, you have a life that's full of 308 00:17:43,431 --> 00:17:47,791 Speaker 3: reward and sometimes failure. But in an institution Really, what 309 00:17:47,831 --> 00:17:51,912 Speaker 3: we're talking about is institutionalization at a young age, where 310 00:17:51,952 --> 00:17:55,311 Speaker 3: those opportunities because you're incarcerated and not available to you, 311 00:17:55,911 --> 00:17:59,471 Speaker 3: you're interacting with a very select cohort who may have 312 00:17:59,591 --> 00:18:02,992 Speaker 3: similar problems that can shape the way that you view 313 00:18:03,032 --> 00:18:06,111 Speaker 3: the universe. I remember years ago when I worked in Paramatta, 314 00:18:06,431 --> 00:18:12,111 Speaker 3: a very experienced prisoner. He's deceased, Bernie Matthews notis. He 315 00:18:12,192 --> 00:18:15,871 Speaker 3: was excatingle He wrote a book about his experiences and 316 00:18:16,232 --> 00:18:18,872 Speaker 3: actually became a journalist. When I was talking to him 317 00:18:18,911 --> 00:18:22,671 Speaker 3: back in those days, he said, you know, tim YTC 318 00:18:22,952 --> 00:18:25,992 Speaker 3: is the high school of crime, and prisoner is the 319 00:18:26,111 --> 00:18:29,152 Speaker 3: university of crime. And you've got to go through high 320 00:18:29,151 --> 00:18:32,071 Speaker 3: school to get to university. In other words, when you're 321 00:18:32,071 --> 00:18:35,351 Speaker 3: spending all this time in an institution with nothing to 322 00:18:35,431 --> 00:18:39,352 Speaker 3: counteract the information the perceptions you've been given, inevitably it's 323 00:18:39,351 --> 00:18:41,512 Speaker 3: going to shape your view of the world and set 324 00:18:41,552 --> 00:18:44,311 Speaker 3: you up for future crime. So in that sense, your 325 00:18:44,712 --> 00:18:48,431 Speaker 3: development is delayed because it's stunted. In some cases it 326 00:18:48,472 --> 00:18:49,711 Speaker 3: never progresses beyond that. 327 00:18:50,431 --> 00:18:53,952 Speaker 1: And can that lead to behaviors when they are finally released. 328 00:18:54,351 --> 00:18:58,591 Speaker 1: Like we've seen with SLD that he's got this obsession 329 00:18:58,831 --> 00:19:01,472 Speaker 1: with losing his virginity and getting a girlfriend, and he's 330 00:19:01,512 --> 00:19:04,511 Speaker 1: doing it in a way that is quite wild. Is 331 00:19:04,552 --> 00:19:07,671 Speaker 1: that a sign of delayed maturation potentially something else? 332 00:19:07,992 --> 00:19:10,431 Speaker 3: Well, think it's both. The obviously is I said, you 333 00:19:10,431 --> 00:19:13,792 Speaker 3: don't acquire the social skills. You're in an environment that's 334 00:19:13,831 --> 00:19:17,032 Speaker 3: full of males, you don't know how to approach and 335 00:19:17,071 --> 00:19:23,351 Speaker 3: interact with women. It speaks of desperation and I guess 336 00:19:24,192 --> 00:19:26,991 Speaker 3: no empathy or insight in terms of the way that 337 00:19:27,032 --> 00:19:30,672 Speaker 3: you're approaching these people. It would generally you would think. 338 00:19:30,712 --> 00:19:34,191 Speaker 3: I find it very confronting, and it really speaks to 339 00:19:34,232 --> 00:19:38,591 Speaker 3: the issue of when people are ultimately released into the community, 340 00:19:39,151 --> 00:19:42,671 Speaker 3: particularly after a long period of time with late maturity 341 00:19:42,671 --> 00:19:45,191 Speaker 3: and all the rest of it, the need for ongoing 342 00:19:45,232 --> 00:19:50,191 Speaker 3: treatment in the community to help them reassimilate, ongoing monitoring 343 00:19:50,391 --> 00:19:53,992 Speaker 3: and so on. And I guess, you know, in some 344 00:19:54,071 --> 00:19:57,911 Speaker 3: ways we're putting the cart before the horse there, because 345 00:19:57,952 --> 00:20:01,111 Speaker 3: people really need to start that process whilst they're in 346 00:20:01,151 --> 00:20:04,191 Speaker 3: a youth training center. So if they're released in the 347 00:20:04,232 --> 00:20:08,591 Speaker 3: community without those skills, anything's possible. I'm not saying that 348 00:20:08,631 --> 00:20:11,071 Speaker 3: everybody gets released is going to behave like that, but 349 00:20:11,752 --> 00:20:15,071 Speaker 3: the example he gives a pretty graphic example of where 350 00:20:15,071 --> 00:20:17,471 Speaker 3: it can go wrong in the absence of serb A 351 00:20:17,552 --> 00:20:18,472 Speaker 3: vision and treatment. 352 00:20:20,071 --> 00:20:23,111 Speaker 1: You're listening to True Crime Conversations with me, Claire Murphy. 353 00:20:23,351 --> 00:20:26,511 Speaker 1: I'm speaking with criminal psychologist Tim Watson Monroe about the 354 00:20:26,512 --> 00:20:30,032 Speaker 1: case of Australia's youngest ever murderer and the psychology behind 355 00:20:30,111 --> 00:20:33,512 Speaker 1: children committing murder. Up next, I asked him if someone 356 00:20:33,512 --> 00:20:36,311 Speaker 1: who's been in prison their entire life can ever really 357 00:20:36,351 --> 00:20:43,991 Speaker 1: transition back into the community. If someone is institutionalized, like 358 00:20:44,032 --> 00:20:47,472 Speaker 1: someone like sld Is, who's you know, essentially his entire 359 00:20:47,512 --> 00:20:49,591 Speaker 1: life almost has been behind bars. 360 00:20:50,351 --> 00:20:52,352 Speaker 2: Is there any way that he can. 361 00:20:53,552 --> 00:20:57,631 Speaker 1: Transition out into the community better because it seems like 362 00:20:57,671 --> 00:21:02,472 Speaker 1: they go from those like is there a transition process 363 00:21:02,472 --> 00:21:04,192 Speaker 1: that could be handled better? And I know that he's 364 00:21:04,272 --> 00:21:08,432 Speaker 1: now been placed in a corrections halfway house whilst he's 365 00:21:08,472 --> 00:21:12,112 Speaker 1: being monitored by people every day and every time he's 366 00:21:12,151 --> 00:21:15,431 Speaker 1: out interacting with the community, But is there a better 367 00:21:15,671 --> 00:21:18,871 Speaker 1: system you think that Australia could introduce to help people 368 00:21:19,032 --> 00:21:23,512 Speaker 1: transition out of US detention or prison back to the community. 369 00:21:23,831 --> 00:21:27,911 Speaker 3: Well, with prison, they have a classification system and like 370 00:21:27,992 --> 00:21:30,512 Speaker 3: the person I mentioned day one at paramount of jail. 371 00:21:31,391 --> 00:21:37,191 Speaker 3: He was classify artors maximum security, and then with the 372 00:21:37,192 --> 00:21:42,111 Speaker 3: passage of time, with good behavior and so on, the 373 00:21:42,151 --> 00:21:46,991 Speaker 3: classification drops, so there's less security. Eventually, they might go 374 00:21:47,071 --> 00:21:50,871 Speaker 3: to a prison farm with a C classification. They may 375 00:21:50,911 --> 00:21:53,792 Speaker 3: then get works release, They may live in the jail 376 00:21:53,831 --> 00:21:56,472 Speaker 3: and work in the community and so on, and that 377 00:21:56,671 --> 00:22:01,431 Speaker 3: in a way facilitates what we're talking about. If people 378 00:22:01,431 --> 00:22:05,191 Speaker 3: are just in jail or yt C for that period 379 00:22:05,232 --> 00:22:08,471 Speaker 3: of time, particularly twenty years. You think about how the 380 00:22:08,552 --> 00:22:13,911 Speaker 3: universe has changed the last five years with COVID let 381 00:22:13,952 --> 00:22:17,831 Speaker 3: alone twenty years ago, it's like landing on Mars, and 382 00:22:17,871 --> 00:22:20,992 Speaker 3: if you don't have that level of support and supervision, 383 00:22:22,151 --> 00:22:25,071 Speaker 3: you're almost set up to fail. So my view is 384 00:22:25,111 --> 00:22:28,391 Speaker 3: there should be transitional periods. Give people a taste of 385 00:22:28,431 --> 00:22:32,471 Speaker 3: what freedoms like, educate them about Melvin, the world in 386 00:22:32,472 --> 00:22:37,512 Speaker 3: the twenty first century, and so on, and provide support 387 00:22:37,591 --> 00:22:41,231 Speaker 3: for them once they are released, because really it's in 388 00:22:41,272 --> 00:22:44,232 Speaker 3: everybody's interest for that to occur. We don't want them 389 00:22:44,272 --> 00:22:47,231 Speaker 3: to reoffend and commit bigger and better crimes where they 390 00:22:47,311 --> 00:22:49,472 Speaker 3: go to jail. If they're going to have a crack 391 00:22:49,512 --> 00:22:52,232 Speaker 3: at the title, give them the sport they need well. 392 00:22:52,311 --> 00:22:55,792 Speaker 1: Psychologists who try to keep Sord behind bars have diagnosed 393 00:22:55,831 --> 00:22:58,591 Speaker 1: him with a personality disorder, saying that he is incredibly 394 00:22:58,631 --> 00:23:03,151 Speaker 1: self centered and unable to show empathy. Is that something 395 00:23:03,232 --> 00:23:08,592 Speaker 1: that with treatment he could potentially be helped to overcome 396 00:23:08,831 --> 00:23:10,351 Speaker 1: or is that part of who he is? 397 00:23:10,871 --> 00:23:16,591 Speaker 3: Personality disorders are notoriously difficult to treat, but they can 398 00:23:16,671 --> 00:23:20,871 Speaker 3: be treated. I think what's more important beyond that is 399 00:23:21,992 --> 00:23:25,391 Speaker 3: whether a person has empathy and remorse, and that's derived 400 00:23:25,391 --> 00:23:28,431 Speaker 3: from insight, Insight to the gravity of what you've done, 401 00:23:29,071 --> 00:23:32,711 Speaker 3: Insight into the need to address the issues which have 402 00:23:32,831 --> 00:23:36,752 Speaker 3: caused you to do what you have done. As I 403 00:23:36,792 --> 00:23:39,871 Speaker 3: said earlier, he was bad, not mad. There was no 404 00:23:39,952 --> 00:23:44,711 Speaker 3: mental state defense. Having a personality disorder doesn't excuse you 405 00:23:44,831 --> 00:23:48,111 Speaker 3: from a serious crime like that, in fact, any crime. 406 00:23:49,151 --> 00:23:55,471 Speaker 3: But in theory, people with personality disorders can be treated, 407 00:23:55,512 --> 00:24:00,192 Speaker 3: but it is a long, laborious process that requires considerable 408 00:24:00,472 --> 00:24:03,712 Speaker 3: commitment from the patient and from the therapist. 409 00:24:04,752 --> 00:24:06,791 Speaker 1: And do you think the current system we have in 410 00:24:06,831 --> 00:24:10,032 Speaker 1: place would be able to help him at this point 411 00:24:10,032 --> 00:24:11,671 Speaker 1: with what we currently have access to. 412 00:24:12,232 --> 00:24:14,751 Speaker 3: Well, look, there are truders out They're very good ones 413 00:24:14,792 --> 00:24:17,991 Speaker 3: who can provide this service, but there's a paucity of 414 00:24:18,032 --> 00:24:21,192 Speaker 3: psychologists in the community now. It's very difficult to get 415 00:24:21,192 --> 00:24:24,152 Speaker 3: in a point or with a psychologist. There's a long 416 00:24:24,232 --> 00:24:29,831 Speaker 3: waiting list, and cases like this theoretically require urgent intervention. 417 00:24:30,431 --> 00:24:32,671 Speaker 3: They need to be met at the gates of the institution. 418 00:24:33,431 --> 00:24:36,871 Speaker 3: And then in fact, even before an idea, well, you 419 00:24:36,952 --> 00:24:40,471 Speaker 3: meet the person, established some sort of clinical rapport so 420 00:24:40,631 --> 00:24:43,751 Speaker 3: that when they're released, they're straight into treatment. I think 421 00:24:43,831 --> 00:24:46,631 Speaker 3: what tends to have, sadly is a lot of people 422 00:24:47,071 --> 00:24:50,311 Speaker 3: fall through the cracks because they can't get immediate help. 423 00:24:50,631 --> 00:24:53,112 Speaker 3: And that's a matter of funding and resources and so on, 424 00:24:53,591 --> 00:24:57,232 Speaker 3: either through the public sector. Some individuals might be able 425 00:24:57,232 --> 00:25:00,712 Speaker 3: to pay for it privately, but you get ten sessions 426 00:25:00,831 --> 00:25:03,711 Speaker 3: under a mental health care plan, it hardly touches the 427 00:25:03,792 --> 00:25:07,552 Speaker 3: sides With these individuals. We're talking years of therapy, really 428 00:25:07,952 --> 00:25:11,951 Speaker 3: consistent therapy. But you can make progress if that occurs. 429 00:25:12,552 --> 00:25:17,151 Speaker 1: It's some You've spent decades speaking to people who've committed 430 00:25:17,792 --> 00:25:21,272 Speaker 1: terrible crimes, and you would have seen the gamut of 431 00:25:21,952 --> 00:25:28,752 Speaker 1: personality types. Are there people who are truly evil? Because 432 00:25:28,792 --> 00:25:30,712 Speaker 1: we have this idea that anyone who commits a crime 433 00:25:30,752 --> 00:25:33,391 Speaker 1: has some level of evilness to them, otherwise they wouldn't 434 00:25:33,431 --> 00:25:36,472 Speaker 1: have been able to do that. But then we factor 435 00:25:36,512 --> 00:25:39,711 Speaker 1: in other things on their own personal circumstances, it might 436 00:25:39,792 --> 00:25:41,351 Speaker 1: have influenced them to become who they are. 437 00:25:41,992 --> 00:25:44,631 Speaker 2: But are there people out there who are genuinely born so? 438 00:25:44,671 --> 00:25:47,032 Speaker 1: I mean, like, if we're talking about young people who 439 00:25:47,032 --> 00:25:49,871 Speaker 1: commit a crime which is just so unbelievably out of 440 00:25:49,952 --> 00:25:52,071 Speaker 1: character for someone like a thirteen year old to do, 441 00:25:53,111 --> 00:25:54,631 Speaker 1: are they born evil? 442 00:25:54,752 --> 00:25:55,552 Speaker 2: Is that even a thing? 443 00:25:57,032 --> 00:26:00,552 Speaker 3: I think it is. I think a lot of crimes 444 00:26:01,232 --> 00:26:07,351 Speaker 3: are committed by circumstances in life, drug addiction, terrible role 445 00:26:07,391 --> 00:26:14,952 Speaker 3: modeling at home, exposure to violence, developing personality disorders, sexual abuse, 446 00:26:14,992 --> 00:26:18,432 Speaker 3: and so on. And I don't agree that all people 447 00:26:18,431 --> 00:26:22,272 Speaker 3: who commit crimes are innately evil. There, in many cases 448 00:26:22,391 --> 00:26:26,671 Speaker 3: just an example of their circumstances, a product of their circumstances. 449 00:26:27,151 --> 00:26:31,151 Speaker 3: That's said, I think there are people who are intrinsically evil. 450 00:26:31,431 --> 00:26:33,552 Speaker 3: Look at the Bulger case. I mean, how do you 451 00:26:33,591 --> 00:26:38,632 Speaker 3: explain that beyond saying this is evil, simplicitor? And how 452 00:26:38,631 --> 00:26:41,632 Speaker 3: does it occur with a ten year old? And then 453 00:26:41,671 --> 00:26:46,912 Speaker 3: look what happened subsequently, release from jail, re offending. Now, 454 00:26:46,952 --> 00:26:50,871 Speaker 3: that may be a function of delayed maturity as we've described, 455 00:26:50,992 --> 00:26:54,951 Speaker 3: or it may be that intrinsic evil, badness was always 456 00:26:54,992 --> 00:26:57,591 Speaker 3: there when you. 457 00:26:57,631 --> 00:26:59,912 Speaker 2: Are speaking to people who committed crimes? 458 00:27:00,111 --> 00:27:04,311 Speaker 1: Are there those who enjoy if they have a title 459 00:27:04,311 --> 00:27:07,632 Speaker 1: attached to that? So sld f ex is known as 460 00:27:07,671 --> 00:27:12,431 Speaker 1: Australia's youngest convicted murderer and we don't know how he 461 00:27:12,431 --> 00:27:14,552 Speaker 1: feels about that. You have not treated him, So we 462 00:27:14,591 --> 00:27:16,631 Speaker 1: don't know whether he sees that as a badge of honor. 463 00:27:16,671 --> 00:27:19,911 Speaker 1: But if the media comes in with these titles for 464 00:27:19,992 --> 00:27:23,272 Speaker 1: these criminals, do some of them enjoy that. 465 00:27:23,712 --> 00:27:26,552 Speaker 3: It's a badge of honor? You know, at some level, 466 00:27:26,591 --> 00:27:30,511 Speaker 3: I enjoy the notoriety. You know. I've been involved some 467 00:27:30,671 --> 00:27:37,392 Speaker 3: very high profile, serious criminal behaviors in Australia. And one 468 00:27:37,431 --> 00:27:40,911 Speaker 3: that springs to mind was when Julian Knight was arrested 469 00:27:41,631 --> 00:27:44,511 Speaker 3: and it's freely available on the net. There's footage of 470 00:27:44,591 --> 00:27:49,311 Speaker 3: him on the Sunday morning or the Monday morning, sorry, 471 00:27:49,752 --> 00:27:52,151 Speaker 3: wanting to look at all the press articles surrounding what 472 00:27:52,192 --> 00:27:56,911 Speaker 3: he had done. Other people keep momentous the reason behind this, 473 00:27:57,032 --> 00:27:58,911 Speaker 3: and I'm not talking about Night, and I'm just making 474 00:27:58,952 --> 00:28:01,591 Speaker 3: that point that he was very interested in the press. 475 00:28:02,631 --> 00:28:05,951 Speaker 3: It keeps the excitement alive. You know, they're still in 476 00:28:05,992 --> 00:28:08,751 Speaker 3: the past, the guy, and particularly if they're in prison 477 00:28:08,752 --> 00:28:12,591 Speaker 3: where they're writing, they're not interacting with anyone, but it 478 00:28:12,631 --> 00:28:16,271 Speaker 3: gives them some social relevance and cachet I think to 479 00:28:16,311 --> 00:28:20,271 Speaker 3: be described in that way, and I don't think they 480 00:28:20,311 --> 00:28:23,751 Speaker 3: should be talked about it all frankly or named, because 481 00:28:23,792 --> 00:28:27,831 Speaker 3: it just gives them oxygen. It amplifies their evil doings 482 00:28:28,272 --> 00:28:29,792 Speaker 3: and feeds into their egos. 483 00:28:31,591 --> 00:28:33,631 Speaker 1: Next, I asked him if he thinks there's a problem 484 00:28:33,671 --> 00:28:37,992 Speaker 1: with keeping a murderer anonymous, especially if they've reoffended as 485 00:28:38,152 --> 00:28:45,432 Speaker 1: SLD has. I think one of the biggest issues that 486 00:28:45,472 --> 00:28:48,271 Speaker 1: we see with SLD now that he has been returned 487 00:28:48,312 --> 00:28:50,671 Speaker 1: to the community and seeing what happened when he was 488 00:28:50,712 --> 00:28:53,832 Speaker 1: returned last time in twenty twenty three, is that he 489 00:28:54,072 --> 00:28:58,072 Speaker 1: gets to live his life with a level of anonymity. 490 00:28:58,592 --> 00:29:02,191 Speaker 1: He was thirteen when he offended, automatically means he cannot 491 00:29:02,192 --> 00:29:06,872 Speaker 1: be identified by anybody, and there have been many where 492 00:29:06,911 --> 00:29:10,231 Speaker 1: for example with the Bulger murderers, where people have tried 493 00:29:10,352 --> 00:29:12,711 Speaker 1: to identify them because they came out of prison with 494 00:29:12,752 --> 00:29:16,512 Speaker 1: a new identity, have tried to identify them, and they 495 00:29:16,512 --> 00:29:20,592 Speaker 1: have faced serious consequences for that, legal consequences. But then 496 00:29:20,632 --> 00:29:22,592 Speaker 1: there is another part, and especially in the case of 497 00:29:22,712 --> 00:29:25,832 Speaker 1: SLD where he showed some really concerning behaviors on being 498 00:29:25,832 --> 00:29:30,072 Speaker 1: released from prison, especially around women and young children. Should 499 00:29:30,072 --> 00:29:33,471 Speaker 1: the community know who he is so they can potentially 500 00:29:33,512 --> 00:29:37,072 Speaker 1: protect themselves and their children from him. But then you 501 00:29:37,152 --> 00:29:39,191 Speaker 1: have to weigh up those who may be vigilante and 502 00:29:39,312 --> 00:29:41,832 Speaker 1: might take things into their own hands. 503 00:29:41,832 --> 00:29:43,312 Speaker 2: Like where do you stand on that? 504 00:29:44,512 --> 00:29:48,072 Speaker 3: With respect? It's a great question, and it's a complex issue. 505 00:29:48,552 --> 00:29:53,191 Speaker 3: On the one hand, people are entitled to a second chance. 506 00:29:54,112 --> 00:29:58,392 Speaker 3: They've done their time, dependent on treatment and rehabilitation in 507 00:29:58,472 --> 00:30:01,312 Speaker 3: jar some individuals just want to get on with their 508 00:30:01,352 --> 00:30:04,792 Speaker 3: lives in an anonymous way. But that has to be 509 00:30:04,872 --> 00:30:06,991 Speaker 3: balanced I think in terms of the gravity of the 510 00:30:07,072 --> 00:30:11,312 Speaker 3: crime and the fact that somebody has committed a crime 511 00:30:11,392 --> 00:30:14,711 Speaker 3: such as this, I'd certainly want to know about it 512 00:30:14,752 --> 00:30:18,032 Speaker 3: if he was my next door neighbor. It's a balancing act. 513 00:30:18,872 --> 00:30:21,632 Speaker 3: I would say that if they reoffend, or if there 514 00:30:21,632 --> 00:30:25,272 Speaker 3: are red flags that might be the gateway, then to 515 00:30:25,392 --> 00:30:28,992 Speaker 3: open all of that up, because there's no rehabilitation. They've 516 00:30:28,992 --> 00:30:33,552 Speaker 3: been given their second chance, and for whatever reasons, they've 517 00:30:33,592 --> 00:30:37,471 Speaker 3: continued to offend. Not murder, but certainly the behaviors you 518 00:30:37,552 --> 00:30:38,712 Speaker 3: describe are very troubling. 519 00:30:39,472 --> 00:30:43,552 Speaker 1: Do you think that someone like sld can be monitored 520 00:30:43,552 --> 00:30:46,392 Speaker 1: well enough in the community. He'll be wearing an ankle 521 00:30:46,392 --> 00:30:49,272 Speaker 1: bracelet and he's living in the halfway house and currently 522 00:30:49,272 --> 00:30:51,752 Speaker 1: has two stuff who are looking out for him, because 523 00:30:52,192 --> 00:30:54,472 Speaker 1: the first time he was released, he only had that 524 00:30:54,592 --> 00:30:57,512 Speaker 1: one NDAES worker who, according to a witness, wasn't keeping 525 00:30:57,552 --> 00:30:59,952 Speaker 1: a close eye on him, and that resulted in him 526 00:31:00,072 --> 00:31:03,312 Speaker 1: approaching a few people during one incident. Now, that's a 527 00:31:03,312 --> 00:31:06,072 Speaker 1: lot of resourcing to put into one person, and whilst 528 00:31:06,472 --> 00:31:09,552 Speaker 1: it is absolutely worth it to protect the community, I'm 529 00:31:09,552 --> 00:31:12,832 Speaker 1: presuming there's only so long they can maintain that. For like, 530 00:31:13,792 --> 00:31:16,952 Speaker 1: how do we weigh up the cost of having him 531 00:31:16,952 --> 00:31:18,711 Speaker 1: in the community as opposed to the cost of putting 532 00:31:18,752 --> 00:31:19,791 Speaker 1: him back behind bars. 533 00:31:21,152 --> 00:31:23,671 Speaker 3: Well, it's a cost benefit analysis, isn't it. And I 534 00:31:23,712 --> 00:31:27,472 Speaker 3: agree that's a lot of resourcing over a period of time. 535 00:31:28,592 --> 00:31:31,911 Speaker 3: I would hope that during that period where that level 536 00:31:31,911 --> 00:31:36,472 Speaker 3: of resourcing is occurring, that there would be treatment reframing 537 00:31:36,512 --> 00:31:40,271 Speaker 3: his attitudes a whole lot of stuff that could enhance 538 00:31:40,312 --> 00:31:43,552 Speaker 3: the prospects of him not re offending and going back 539 00:31:43,592 --> 00:31:47,911 Speaker 3: to prison. But you know, ankle monitoring, there's been a 540 00:31:47,952 --> 00:31:51,392 Speaker 3: lot of controversy around that. There were some private operators 541 00:31:51,392 --> 00:31:55,312 Speaker 3: around Australia who were used by the courts, and then 542 00:31:55,312 --> 00:31:57,552 Speaker 3: it was utilized it was revealed that in fact they 543 00:31:57,592 --> 00:32:00,832 Speaker 3: weren't monitoring anyone at all. I think it needs to 544 00:32:00,832 --> 00:32:05,352 Speaker 3: be done by the state, not private enterprise. And there's 545 00:32:05,392 --> 00:32:08,352 Speaker 3: always the in fact it's happened where people cut away 546 00:32:08,431 --> 00:32:12,032 Speaker 3: their ankle bracelet. The urge has become too grave. They 547 00:32:12,072 --> 00:32:14,152 Speaker 3: just want a bit of freedom and then they're not 548 00:32:14,272 --> 00:32:16,991 Speaker 3: under supervision. But I don't think that's an argument in 549 00:32:17,032 --> 00:32:21,751 Speaker 3: itself for people to not be given a chance. I 550 00:32:21,792 --> 00:32:24,832 Speaker 3: think people deserve a chance. But you know, the eyes 551 00:32:24,872 --> 00:32:26,792 Speaker 3: of the world are on you, and if you screw 552 00:32:26,832 --> 00:32:30,552 Speaker 3: it up, you're back into the institution. Because as a 553 00:32:30,552 --> 00:32:33,672 Speaker 3: community we can't take these sort of risks, particularly where 554 00:32:33,671 --> 00:32:35,552 Speaker 3: there's been very serious crimes committed. 555 00:32:36,671 --> 00:32:39,472 Speaker 1: A crime that's been committed by a child is so 556 00:32:39,632 --> 00:32:43,592 Speaker 1: shocking and it does leave a really deep scar in 557 00:32:43,632 --> 00:32:46,912 Speaker 1: the community that is affected, and the immediate community more 558 00:32:46,952 --> 00:32:50,072 Speaker 1: so obviously, but the broader Australian community was so shocked 559 00:32:50,392 --> 00:32:51,632 Speaker 1: by SLD's crime. 560 00:32:52,272 --> 00:32:53,592 Speaker 2: It seems so senseless. 561 00:32:55,192 --> 00:33:00,471 Speaker 1: What's the long term psychological impact on those who are 562 00:33:00,472 --> 00:33:05,352 Speaker 1: immediately affected? You think by a child committing something so 563 00:33:05,472 --> 00:33:09,352 Speaker 1: heinous that it's almost just out of the realm of understanding. 564 00:33:09,911 --> 00:33:13,232 Speaker 1: And I mean for both that child's family who were 565 00:33:13,312 --> 00:33:15,671 Speaker 1: raising him and protecting him at the time, and the 566 00:33:15,712 --> 00:33:18,711 Speaker 1: family have lost little Courtney at the hands of a 567 00:33:18,752 --> 00:33:19,671 Speaker 1: thirteen year old. 568 00:33:20,152 --> 00:33:21,312 Speaker 2: How do you deal with that? 569 00:33:22,352 --> 00:33:25,792 Speaker 3: Well, I don't think you could overstate the impact. You 570 00:33:25,832 --> 00:33:30,632 Speaker 3: talk about the victim, survivors, the family of Courtney, but 571 00:33:30,872 --> 00:33:35,991 Speaker 3: often too, the family of an accused person are dramatically affected. 572 00:33:36,392 --> 00:33:39,552 Speaker 3: They didn't see it coming their face, with the prospect 573 00:33:39,552 --> 00:33:44,032 Speaker 3: of their child spending decades potentially out of the community 574 00:33:44,032 --> 00:33:48,671 Speaker 3: in YTC and or prison as they progress, and that 575 00:33:48,792 --> 00:33:53,152 Speaker 3: has an impact upon them. I think too, there's a 576 00:33:53,352 --> 00:33:57,152 Speaker 3: like a multiplier effect in the community. We're all affected 577 00:33:57,192 --> 00:34:00,272 Speaker 3: in a way, and we all acquire and varying degrees 578 00:34:00,272 --> 00:34:04,272 Speaker 3: of intensity what I describe as symptoms of black hair 579 00:34:04,312 --> 00:34:07,552 Speaker 3: as post traumatic stress. About this, and you think, where 580 00:34:07,592 --> 00:34:11,071 Speaker 3: have we failed as a community? What's happened to us 581 00:34:11,192 --> 00:34:14,192 Speaker 3: as a community, and why is it that this kid 582 00:34:14,192 --> 00:34:17,352 Speaker 3: has committed this offense? Could have been my kid? Probably not, 583 00:34:17,632 --> 00:34:20,352 Speaker 3: but you know, these sorts of things float through the 584 00:34:20,392 --> 00:34:23,392 Speaker 3: eth with individuals, so I don't think you can overstate 585 00:34:23,431 --> 00:34:26,872 Speaker 3: the impact of these sorts of crimes. Murders occur all 586 00:34:26,911 --> 00:34:30,511 Speaker 3: the time, far too frequently these days in Australia, but 587 00:34:30,951 --> 00:34:36,072 Speaker 3: when it's a juvenile offender killing a three year old, 588 00:34:36,712 --> 00:34:37,632 Speaker 3: that's next level. 589 00:34:41,911 --> 00:34:44,272 Speaker 1: You can listen to Tim's podcast Motive and Method with 590 00:34:44,312 --> 00:34:46,672 Speaker 1: Doctor's Anthey Mallett at the link in our show notes. 591 00:34:46,832 --> 00:34:49,792 Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations is a Mum of Meer podcast hosted 592 00:34:49,832 --> 00:34:52,511 Speaker 1: by me Claire Murphy and produced by Tarlie Blackman, with 593 00:34:52,592 --> 00:34:54,032 Speaker 1: audio designed by Jacob Brown. 594 00:34:54,511 --> 00:34:55,872 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for listening. 595 00:34:55,951 --> 00:35:07,471 Speaker 1: I'll be back next week with another True Crime Conversation.