Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mama Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I can even talk about the fact that I
Speaker 3: was there on the night that Facebook started. I don't
Speaker 3: know if I've shared this on the pod before, but
Speaker 3: I was at Harvard when Mark Zuckerberg started Facebook, and.
Speaker 1: I remember the night it started. My roommate walked into
Speaker 1: my room in the social news.
Speaker 3: I'm sitting in my dorm room and my roommate comes
Speaker 3: in and she says, have you heard of this thing
Speaker 3: called the Facebook?
Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Mamma Mia out Loud and to
Speaker 2: our Friday show, where you will hear not a peep,
Speaker 2: not a bleep about what's going on in the wider
Speaker 2: world because this is a news free zone and it's Friday,
Speaker 2: the twenty eighth of March.
Speaker 1: I'm Holly Waynwright, I'm Meya Friedman, and I am not
Speaker 1: Jessee Stevens. I am Amelia Lester, filling in for Jesse.
Speaker 2: On today's show. We're millennials, the last generation to really
Speaker 2: have it all. That slight crunch you could here is
Speaker 2: a merelya Lester flexing gee.
Speaker 1: Is one I know loud. That's why so you and
Speaker 1: I are not.
Speaker 2: Recommendations include a deeply original novel, some no bullshit health
Speaker 2: advice and a lipliner, and our Best and Worst of
Speaker 2: the Week, which includes singing, dancing, and having nightmares, not
Speaker 2: all at the same time, but also sort of at
Speaker 2: the same time.
Speaker 1: First mea Friedman In case you missed it. There are
Speaker 1: five main reasons why women break up with their hairdresser,
Speaker 1: according to an unscientific investigation in the Age by reporter
Speaker 1: Hannah Hammond. I have a question before I tell you
Speaker 1: what they are. How many times do you think the
Speaker 1: average woman goes to the hairdresser in her lifetime?
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, just quickly, just off the top of
Speaker 2: your head.
Speaker 1: Over a whole life. Do maths one hundred four hundred.
Speaker 1: It's one hundred and fifty on average, five times a
Speaker 1: year except during COVID, where we cut our own fringes.
Speaker 1: There are sixty three thousand hairstylists currently employed across Australia,
Speaker 1: and at any given moment, many of us are moving
Speaker 1: between them, leaving one trying another. Here are the five
Speaker 1: reasons why. Number one, they don't listen. So if you say,
Speaker 1: I'd just like a couple of centimeters off and you
Speaker 1: leave with, as they call it on The White Lotus,
Speaker 1: a county bob. Do you know what I'm referring to it?
Speaker 1: I do. Leslie Beab's character, one of the Three Blondes.
Speaker 1: She released a video with her and Chris McMillan, who
Speaker 1: is Jennifer Andison's headdresser, and they call this hairstyle the
Speaker 1: county bob. Do just think anyone ever breaks up with Chris McMillan.
Speaker 1: I have some feedback for him about Jennifer Aniston's hair.
Speaker 1: I think that I don't think she needs to break
Speaker 1: up with him. And maybe it's her not him, but
Speaker 1: I would like her hair to evolve. I think it
Speaker 1: needs a little bit more warmth. I'd like to see
Speaker 1: some more buttery chunks.
Speaker 2: Okay, it's not you, it's me, Chris.
Speaker 1: I'll DM him anyway. The second reason, you don't feel
Speaker 1: good about yourself when you leave. I love this reason
Speaker 1: because I sometimes apply this to friendships. You know, when
Speaker 1: you spend time with someone and you leave and you say, Okay,
Speaker 1: how do I feel in this moment? What's the word?
Speaker 1: And it could be burdened, it could be drained, it
Speaker 1: could be recharged uplifted. If you walk out of the
Speaker 1: hairdresser and you feel disappointed, sad, bad things, probably ugly ugly. Yes,
Speaker 1: it's probably a reason that you might want to break up.
Speaker 1: Third reason, they're always running late. Got to respect people's time.
Speaker 1: I'm usually the one running late. Fourth reason is you
Speaker 1: can't afford them anymore. It's expensive going to the hairdresser.
Speaker 1: It can be, but you know their time is precious too.
Speaker 1: And the fifth reason, they make you feel uncomfortable. I
Speaker 1: think this speaks to the intimacy that happens when you're vulnerable,
Speaker 1: sitting in the chair, hair or wet and maybe foils,
Speaker 1: and you might say things to your hairdresser. They might
Speaker 1: say things to you. It's a very intimate moment, it is,
Speaker 1: but you have to feel comfortable in the moment. Emila
Speaker 1: and Holly, when was the last time you broke up
Speaker 1: with your hairdresser? And why so?
Speaker 3: I need to bring the curly girl energy here because
Speaker 3: I have very difficult hair. This is not a humble brag,
Speaker 3: but hair dress get really terrified when they see my
Speaker 3: hair for the first time. They always say something.
Speaker 1: Like, gosh, you've got a lot of hair.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and sometimes it's a compliment and sometimes it's an insult,
Speaker 3: and sometimes it's just sort of a complaint. But either way,
Speaker 3: it's always a bit fraught when I meet a new hairdresser.
Speaker 1: So this is a topic nearing to my heart. Then
Speaker 1: not accept you like, say thanks, but I won't be
Speaker 1: doing this today, not yet.
Speaker 3: I think it's because you can charge a lot when
Speaker 3: you've got as much hair as I do. But again,
Speaker 3: not a humble brag, it's really it creates friction with
Speaker 3: hairdressers a lot. But I had a hairdresser who I
Speaker 3: acquired during COVID, So when restrictions were easy where I
Speaker 3: was living, I just moved to a new place and
Speaker 3: I got a hairdresser who came to my house and
Speaker 3: for a while she cut my hair in my backyard
Speaker 3: because it was still during that time when we needed
Speaker 3: to socialize outside, and then we moved inside. Look, you
Speaker 3: couldn't beat the convenience of it. I did have to
Speaker 3: wash my own hair, which was slightly annoying.
Speaker 1: But my local park was full of hairdressers meeting their clients.
Speaker 3: Park.
Speaker 1: Was it like people.
Speaker 2: Walking around with their foils in?
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was.
Speaker 3: But I broke up with her because to your point
Speaker 3: about how you feel when you leave, I felt really drained.
Speaker 3: She would come and I felt like I needed to
Speaker 3: keep the conversation going, and I had to remember her
Speaker 3: children's names, and we just got into sort of inevitably
Speaker 3: quite intense conversations about parenting.
Speaker 1: I felt exhausted at the end. I like to work
Speaker 1: at the hairdresser, Holly, what about you.
Speaker 2: I didn't have a steady hairdresser until me. I did
Speaker 2: some matchmaking for me, which you know, it's quite typical
Speaker 2: of many of the dynamic of our relationship where she's like,
Speaker 2: we need to fix this. So I always just flooded around.
Speaker 2: ID just go to whoever.
Speaker 1: So you were constantly breaking up with people, I'd.
Speaker 2: Be like, whoever can pit me in? And I have
Speaker 2: exactly the same thing, because dirt, because I was and
Speaker 2: I'm a commitment fobe, like Ameily, I have a lot
Speaker 2: of hair. So sometimes they break up with you. Sometimes
Speaker 2: they're just like, oh no, really yep. And also I
Speaker 2: think I always feel a lot of sympathy for hair
Speaker 2: dresses because my expectations are very unrealistic. I'm always like,
Speaker 2: I want a heavy friend.
Speaker 1: Are you bringing a bardo?
Speaker 2: That's like my ideal hair, and they're just like, duh,
Speaker 2: you're delusional, and they're obviously like in any relationship when
Speaker 2: they tell you you're dreaming, you get a bit upset.
Speaker 1: I've evangelized my hairdresser, but now everyone on Out Loud
Speaker 1: goes to her except for you, but Jesse and Holly
Speaker 1: both go to her. She's like the out loud hairdresser,
Speaker 1: elle A Edwards, and I'm going this week. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: I've started a group chat with Elle and Holly about
Speaker 1: what we're going to do just for feelings about Holly's hair.
Speaker 2: MEA's backseat driving my hair. Generational wars are an enormous
Speaker 2: amount of fun if it is not your generation who's
Speaker 2: being sledged, which is why I can't get enough of
Speaker 2: the millennial gen Z fight. But sometimes these silly scraps
Speaker 2: about arbitrary social groupings of birthdays are profound.
Speaker 1: Can you summarize that fire? Do you think it's just
Speaker 1: like gen Z trolling millennials about being old?
Speaker 2: Yes, because now that millennials are, you know, in their
Speaker 2: thirties and early forties and so on, they are now
Speaker 2: the old people and inverted commas, and obviously gen zs
Speaker 2: are the young people, and young people like to sledge
Speaker 2: old people, and when you're first in the old people
Speaker 2: category in inverted commas, it is profoundly uncomfortable to have
Speaker 2: that shifting realization that you are not the young people anymore.
Speaker 1: Meanwhile, Gen x's have just become irrelevant and or cute,
Speaker 1: but you are always kind of a releman. I disagree.
Speaker 2: I think we have only become cooler. Meal We are cool,
Speaker 2: but we are.
Speaker 1: Not how they kill a fight. They see us as cute,
Speaker 1: you know, that condescending phase.
Speaker 2: It's like they do genes cute and kind of bombling
Speaker 2: and pathetic.
Speaker 1: And I said that to us the other day.
Speaker 2: She did, Actually, that was good. We should get to that.
Speaker 2: But this essay that we're going to talk about today
Speaker 2: is not silly. It's profound, and I think there's a
Speaker 2: lot of truth in it for all of us. It's
Speaker 2: written by American content creators. She would hate that tag, Liz.
Speaker 2: It's called millennials were the last generation to have it all.
Speaker 2: And before we test some of these theories on Amelia,
Speaker 2: I want to read you a couple of highlights from
Speaker 2: this essay because it's really good and it's kind of
Speaker 2: the main argument about being jen Yan young was the
Speaker 2: greatest gift right. For example, social media, Liz Rights, Millennials
Speaker 2: were the last generation to experience social media when it
Speaker 2: was fun, before it turned into a full time job.
Speaker 2: Social media was essentially one big group chat, just a
Speaker 2: place for your friends and family to keep up with you.
Speaker 1: The virtual world.
Speaker 2: Was not more important than the real one. We went
Speaker 2: out drank Vodkasoda's made mistakes, and those mistakes stayed in
Speaker 2: the bar bathroom. You could have a bad night without
Speaker 2: its showing up in someone's group chat five seconds later.
Speaker 1: Yes, life was.
Speaker 2: Not a personal brand and being young wasn't a content strategy.
Speaker 2: It was excessive, earnest, ridiculous and free. And jen Z
Speaker 2: hates us for it because they know they missed out.
Speaker 2: What do you think about that?
Speaker 3: So you'll notice that I bought the side part energy
Speaker 3: here today.
Speaker 1: It really did in your Rocketcas.
Speaker 3: I'm reclaiming it, and I want to point out to
Speaker 3: gen Z, jen Affer is coming up behind you and
Speaker 3: soon they're going to be making fun of your tube
Speaker 3: socks and your center parts, and you're going to see.
Speaker 1: What it feels like.
Speaker 3: But look, I think this is very profound in the
Speaker 3: sense that Millennials were the last of maybe the good ones,
Speaker 3: but also the first of the bad ones. And I
Speaker 3: think that's maybe what Liz Plank is missing a little
Speaker 3: bit here. So, yes, we know what life was like
Speaker 3: before the Internet, but life was no walk in the
Speaker 3: park for us millennials. Get out your violins here. I
Speaker 3: need to explain that for us, we saw a stable,
Speaker 3: prosperous world in the nineties, but then that bubble was
Speaker 3: burst when we basically finished high school around the time
Speaker 3: of nine to eleven, and that showed that all the
Speaker 3: things that we took for granted, that skyscrapers would always
Speaker 3: be there, and that the West was largely unencumbered by
Speaker 3: problems in the rest of the world, that was.
Speaker 1: Not true week old we during nine to eleven, I.
Speaker 3: Was eighteen, so it was really a coming of age. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and in fact it happened the day before I started university,
Speaker 3: so it's all about me. And then the second thing
Speaker 3: was that we graduated into the financial crisis. So a
Speaker 3: lot of people I know took time off before if
Speaker 3: they went to graduate school they wanted to be a
Speaker 3: doctor or a lawyer or whatever, they took time off
Speaker 3: because there was just no jobs to be had, and
Speaker 3: so they worked sort of jobs that they wouldn't have
Speaker 3: chosen otherwise because it was such a hostile job market.
Speaker 3: So basically, we've had a huge shock every seven eight,
Speaker 3: nine years since we became adults. And then you've got
Speaker 3: Brexit and Trump in about seven or eight years after
Speaker 3: the financial crisis, and that was a big sort of
Speaker 3: blinkers lifting moment for millennials because we are a very
Speaker 3: progressive generation. Most of us did not want Brexit, most
Speaker 3: of us did not want Donald Trump, and that was
Speaker 3: another big shock. So I think you got these three
Speaker 3: seismic events for our generation that are made not fully incorporated.
Speaker 2: The thing that's really interesting about generational algibargie is that
Speaker 2: all of the things that you just discussed happened to everybody,
Speaker 2: right as in, the things that happen when you're young
Speaker 2: tipping into adulthood are very formative, it's true, but everyone
Speaker 2: else at this table experienced all those events, you know,
Speaker 2: the financial crisis nine to eleven, So it's really interesting
Speaker 2: what we think about who owns what time.
Speaker 1: That's fascinating because as you were saying that, I was
Speaker 1: forcing myself to not interrupt and go, But did you
Speaker 1: have aids Because when we were becoming sexually active, suddenly
Speaker 1: there was this sex born virus that could kill you.
Speaker 1: And even though the Boomers also experienced that, they weren't
Speaker 1: first starting to have sex. So it was much more
Speaker 1: impactful on Gen X than it was on Boomers, even
Speaker 1: though we were all having sex.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess every generation can point to these being
Speaker 3: seizmic traumatic events. I think the difference from millennials is
Speaker 3: that we saw it both ways. So we saw the
Speaker 3: Blockbuster and the Netflix, we saw the radio and the
Speaker 3: Spotify of it all. So take the Internet like a
Speaker 3: bridge in generation. There we are, we have to hold
Speaker 3: everyone else up. So do you remember there's there's a
Speaker 3: very famous New Yorker cartoon which features a dog sitting
Speaker 3: at a computer and typing, and the caption is on
Speaker 3: the Internet, no one knows You're a dog. That cartoon
Speaker 3: came out in the late nineties, and the humor of
Speaker 3: that cartoon was that you could be anyone you like
Speaker 3: on the Internet.
Speaker 1: No one used real names back then. You a radical idea.
Speaker 3: Yes, it was like the Internet was a sort of
Speaker 3: like mysterious fantasy realm where you never used your full name.
Speaker 3: You would never post a photo of your face on there.
Speaker 3: The idea was that on the Internet you'd come up
Speaker 3: with some ridiculous email address, you know, like whatever at
Speaker 3: hotmail dot com, Fluffy Unicorn.
Speaker 1: At hotmail dot com. You'd never use your name.
Speaker 3: And then we thought the Internet was a fun place
Speaker 3: where you could experiment with different personas. But then what
Speaker 3: gen Z came into was the Internet was real life.
Speaker 3: That was your person I wonder if even gen z
Speaker 3: uses do they say irl because we used IRL to
Speaker 3: denote this is the Internet, but this is real life.
Speaker 2: The thing that's interesting about this is so Plank's essay
Speaker 2: is very positive, right, It's very like we saw this
Speaker 2: amazing progressive era. She's American, so she'soid about American politics
Speaker 2: under Obama. That's why we believe in politics, and we
Speaker 2: believe in change and all these things. She's like, we
Speaker 2: got to party, we got to do all this stuff.
Speaker 1: What I really loved in this idea of you being
Speaker 1: a bridging generation is that and what Liz thank got
Speaker 1: to in this was that you experienced all of the
Speaker 1: good things, or a lot of the good things about
Speaker 1: the Internet before the really toxic things took hold. So
Speaker 1: She says millennials were the last generation to experience social
Speaker 1: media when it was fun, before it turned into a
Speaker 1: full time job. Social media was essentially one big group chat,
Speaker 1: just a place for your friends and family to keep
Speaker 1: up with you. The virtual world wasn't more important than
Speaker 1: the real one. The Internet really struck me because like
Speaker 1: my eldest child, he's not quite millennial. He's technically zed,
Speaker 1: but he's almost twenty eight. He didn't experience the toxicity
Speaker 1: of algorithms and social media. It was fun for him,
Speaker 1: and the Internet was full of opportunities in the beginning
Speaker 1: of streaming, and things were good before they became toxic.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I can even talk about the fact that I
Speaker 3: was there on the night that Facebook started. I don't
Speaker 3: know if I've shared this on the pod before, but
Speaker 3: I was at Harvard when Mark Zuckerberg started Facebook, and
Speaker 3: I remember the night it started. My roommate walked into
Speaker 3: my life the social network.
Speaker 1: Were you a CA? I don't know if we've spoken
Speaker 1: about this enough. O the Leicester.
Speaker 3: So I'm sitting in my year with this two thousand
Speaker 3: and four. Okay, I'm sitting in my dorm room and
Speaker 3: my roommate comes in and she says, have you heard
Speaker 3: of this thing called the Facebook? And it started literally
Speaker 3: a couple of hours beforehand. So I signed up. So
Speaker 3: I was the sixtieth user, and that used to be
Speaker 3: in my URL of my name Amelia sixty Amelia sixty
Speaker 3: not sixty nine, and face sixty. Everyone was super excited
Speaker 3: because it was the first time that you could upload
Speaker 3: a photo of yourself and put your name. It felt
Speaker 3: safe because it was a little closed ecosystem. You'd never
Speaker 3: done that before. The idea of putting your name and
Speaker 3: your face on the Internet was a new idea.
Speaker 1: And what made it feel safe because it just for.
Speaker 3: Harvard students, so it was just it was very restricted.
Speaker 3: And then it only became for other university students, and
Speaker 3: you know, it gradually got bigger and bigger, but it
Speaker 3: started as a closed ecosystem, so you joined that night.
Speaker 3: It had all these fields, like political views. Everyone put
Speaker 3: very liberal regardless of their political views, because that's what
Speaker 3: we did at the time. Favorite movie, favorite quote. People
Speaker 3: put Annie Hall as their favorite movie, which is like
Speaker 3: what we did on MySpace. Right, It was a bit
Speaker 3: like MySpace, but MySpace had a stigma around it because
Speaker 3: I think it still felt a little bit alternative, as
Speaker 3: Facebook was just what you did. Even that night, I
Speaker 3: felt a twinge of anxiety when I joined, And then
Speaker 3: after a few days I already started to feel that
Speaker 3: pit in my stomach that comes from social media, that
Speaker 3: comes from competing with other people on social.
Speaker 1: Media first time that we all know so well.
Speaker 3: Yes, And then I emailed Mark Zuckerberg because I wrote
Speaker 3: a column in the university newspaper, and I emailed him
Speaker 3: and said, Hi, Mark, I'm writing an article about the Facebook,
Speaker 3: and I'm trying to find out how to leave the Facebook,
Speaker 3: but there's no way to leave it. And he wrote
Speaker 3: back immediately. He was really worried and anxious because keep
Speaker 3: in mind, he was like twenty years old and didn't
Speaker 3: know what he was doing. He wrote back immediately. He
Speaker 3: was like Himelia, thanks for getting in touch. I'm so
Speaker 3: glad you're writing about it, because no one had written
Speaker 3: about it before, And he said, I haven't yet written
Speaker 3: the code to unjoin, but I'm working on it. And
Speaker 3: I look back on that and I think it's such
Speaker 3: a metaphor for what ended up happening, because we're all
Speaker 3: living in the Facebook world now and none of us
Speaker 3: can enjoin because he.
Speaker 1: Never wrote the code. So I wrote this article which
Speaker 1: now runs the world that yeah, he does.
Speaker 3: And so I wrote this article, which was the second
Speaker 3: ever published article. It was about Facebook. It was ten
Speaker 3: days after it had started. And basically the article, I
Speaker 3: was like, I feel bad about Facebook because it it
Speaker 3: only took ten days.
Speaker 1: I mean, you were an iconiclass.
Speaker 3: It's just that social media makes everyone feel bad. It
Speaker 3: wasn't a profound thought. It was just that I felt
Speaker 3: this pit in my stomach ten days in.
Speaker 1: And ironically, the Facebook was about rating women, That's what
Speaker 1: it was about. Galat face. So he was known to us.
Speaker 3: So when my roommate came in, I knew who Mark
Speaker 3: Zuckerberg was because a few months before that he had
Speaker 3: started face mash, which was where he took our official
Speaker 3: student ID photos and pitied both men and women's official
Speaker 3: photos against each other, and you had to vote for
Speaker 3: the hotter one. And I remember there was a ranking
Speaker 3: of the top ten women on campus and the top
Speaker 3: ten men, which is.
Speaker 1: What social media at its heart, basically, it is whether
Speaker 1: it's comparing faces or lifestyles.
Speaker 3: And he hadn't met Priscilla Chan, his wife. She was
Speaker 3: He met her in the line for the bathroom at
Speaker 3: a fraternity party, but he hadn't met her when he
Speaker 3: started facemash, so it very much read as sort of
Speaker 3: a horny opportunity stick, almost like twenty year old coding.
Speaker 1: Yeah. In Liz Plank's story about this Golden Age and
Speaker 1: why Millennials had it good, she says, the faces, My god,
Speaker 1: the faces. The women of that era had faces, distinct ones,
Speaker 1: faces with character and quirks, Noses that weren't mathematically whittled
Speaker 1: into aerodynamic ski slopes, lips that weren't pre measured to
Speaker 1: one to one to six golden ratio. Rihanna had her
Speaker 1: face care and Nightley had her jawline. Zoe Deschanel had
Speaker 1: her big, awkward round eyes. Women weren't expected to morph
Speaker 1: into an optimized version of beauty. There was no single
Speaker 1: template being mass produced in Beverly Hills and exploreded around
Speaker 1: the country. There was no singular, terrifying Instagram face. And
Speaker 1: you know why that was. It was because we very rarely.
Speaker 3: Saw ourselves in a photo because at your time, you
Speaker 3: had to go to the chemist to get photos produced,
Speaker 3: and so when the Facebook started, you had to literally
Speaker 3: scan in a photo. You didn't have digital photos of yourself,
Speaker 3: like cast.
Speaker 1: Your mind back. So beauty was more varied then, because now,
Speaker 1: for jen Z, it's completely homogenized and there is literally
Speaker 1: an algorithm that tells us what kind of beauty performs
Speaker 1: the best. It's Instagram face.
Speaker 2: I want to ask this bit about celebrity because you know,
Speaker 2: I'm obsessed with celebrity culture, right. One of the things
Speaker 2: that Liz writes that was great about pop culture at
Speaker 2: that time, which, let's face it was not all great,
Speaker 2: but she said, we got to live through Solunge and
Speaker 2: jay Z and the Elevator as a mystery, not as
Speaker 2: a micro trend dissected in a thousand tiktoks by teenagers
Speaker 2: convinced they had sources. Yes, so true, because it's like
Speaker 2: she says, Lebonade told us what happened, not a series
Speaker 2: of breathless exposes written by nineteen year olds who think
Speaker 2: watching a grainy paparazzi clip qualifies them to unpack what
Speaker 2: really happened.
Speaker 1: I love this.
Speaker 2: There has been a shift, the rail shift in how
Speaker 2: we view celebrity culture now as a mystery to solve.
Speaker 1: That's true and also the opinionification of everything. The hot take,
Speaker 1: which is ironic given that's what we do on this
Speaker 1: show in many cases. But then you could consume a
Speaker 1: piece of content and form your own opinion about it
Speaker 1: before you eight million others like my feed at the
Speaker 1: moment is overrun with podcasts and videos and social deconstructing
Speaker 1: all the mysteries in White Lotus and severance and this
Speaker 1: clue and that clue that you missed in this easter egg,
Speaker 1: whether it's you know, Taylor Swift or a TV show,
Speaker 1: And that can feel fun, but it can feel exhausting,
Speaker 1: and then it can also apply to news like the
Speaker 1: Lively and Justin Baldoni story.
Speaker 3: And I'm cuan on arguably Taylor Swift. She was famous
Speaker 3: all through the two thousands, but she really hit the
Speaker 3: stratosphere when we developed this receipts culture because people essentially
Speaker 3: were consuming her music as gossip and connecting the dots
Speaker 3: of her music in a way that was quite distinct
Speaker 3: from when Lemonade came out twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen.
Speaker 1: Sorry, it was a quite different way.
Speaker 3: You were listening to the music first and foremost, yes,
Speaker 3: but now it's different.
Speaker 1: And Taylor very much pioneered easter egg culture from a
Speaker 1: mainstream point of view. Yes, intentionally dropping and creating all
Speaker 1: of those easter eggs.
Speaker 2: One of the things that Liz Plank says in this
Speaker 2: and obviously she's very specific media lens, and she made
Speaker 2: her name in like startup internet businesses like BuzzFeed.
Speaker 1: Fun fact about Liz Plank. She also co hosted a
Speaker 1: podcast with Justin Baldoni That's Feminism. Quite recently quit after
Speaker 1: the New York Times story.
Speaker 2: And in this piece she writes about the enthusiasm of
Speaker 2: that time, like throwing yourselves into these kind of startups,
Speaker 2: working like a mofo, like never you know. She says,
Speaker 2: we didn't go home till late, and we didn't want to.
Speaker 2: That's where we found our family was fun back then. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and she says that we even though she says with
Speaker 2: kind of with hindsight, there was a fair amount of
Speaker 2: exploitation in a way. It meant that people could build
Speaker 2: these careers and it felt very exciting and you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we were institutionalists. I think we were the last institutionalist.
Speaker 3: So we entered the workforce wanting to climb the corporate ladder.
Speaker 3: The notion of work life balance was not important to us.
Speaker 3: The word hustle was glorified. Leaning In, Leaning In, I
Speaker 3: watched The Devil We was prior recently a great movie.
Speaker 3: Love Stanley Tucci and love Anne Hathaway, but it feels
Speaker 3: like a relic.
Speaker 1: Of another time.
Speaker 3: The whole notion that you should sacrifice yourself to work
Speaker 3: in order to get this delayed promise of getting ahead,
Speaker 3: that just feels so alien now.
Speaker 1: And I know that younger people in the.
Speaker 3: Workforce resent that idea that they should pour themselves into
Speaker 3: the work at the expense of everything.
Speaker 1: Now, I think Anne Hathaway's character would be telling Anna
Speaker 1: Winto's character that she has boundaries and yeah, work life
Speaker 1: wants and she worked from home.
Speaker 3: Anne Hathaway would be the content creator. Now the movie
Speaker 3: would be about her.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the last one to drop about womanhood, Because I
Speaker 2: wonder if you feel as optimistic about millennial women as
Speaker 2: Liz did. She says, if you were a girl, you
Speaker 2: were the first generation of women who truly had choices,
Speaker 2: not just in theory but in practice. Unlike our mothers,
Speaker 2: we weren't expected to marry straight out of college. We
Speaker 2: could be messy, ambitious, chaotic, and unapologetic in ways they
Speaker 2: never could. I kind of feel like jen X could
Speaker 2: do that too. We weren't just given the option of independence,
Speaker 2: we were expected to take it more. Women of all
Speaker 2: walks of life were delaying marriage, delaying motherhood, pursuing careers,
Speaker 2: moving to cities, building lives on their own terms. And
Speaker 2: for the first time, it wasn't tragic to be a
Speaker 2: woman in her twenties without a husband.
Speaker 1: It was aspirational.
Speaker 2: Do reckon that was a real thing, and that she
Speaker 2: doesn't buy it, She's not buying the millennials at at all.
Speaker 1: It felt a little tragic.
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm not proud of saying that, but as
Speaker 3: a woman who was single for much of my twenties,
Speaker 3: I really felt like, frankly a failure at thirty when
Speaker 3: I wasn't married.
Speaker 1: Really, you didn't, You weren't empowered by the girl's era,
Speaker 1: You know that, because it's.
Speaker 3: What you should mention girls. I mean, Lena Dunham, that
Speaker 3: show is all about. It's sort of like a retelling
Speaker 3: of sex and the City for twenty something. Ye, but
Speaker 3: Lena Dunham had the same desire to find someone for
Speaker 3: in love settled don as Carrie Bradshaw did.
Speaker 1: Ten years earlier.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so a merely saying, no, millennials did not have
Speaker 2: it all you being at day one of the culture
Speaker 2: we all live in now at Harvard with Mark Zuckerberg.
Speaker 2: We need to unpacked further at another time, but the
Speaker 2: link to the essay that we're talking about is going
Speaker 2: to be in the show notes, and we'd love to
Speaker 2: know if millennials feel like they had it great or
Speaker 2: like Amelia, that they did not.
Speaker 1: We could have had it all out loud is in
Speaker 1: a moment, something to listen, to read and pop on
Speaker 1: your lips.
Speaker 4: It's our recommendations, vibes, ideas, atmosphere, something casual, something fun.
Speaker 1: This is my best recommendation. It's Friday, so we want
Speaker 1: to help set up your weekend with our best recos Amelia,
Speaker 1: go your hardest.
Speaker 3: So I went on a girl's trip recently with two
Speaker 3: friends I haven't seen in a long time, and naturally
Speaker 3: what we did was god a Sephora and we went
Speaker 3: in and there was a young lady working there.
Speaker 1: Because now I'm an older millennial, I use the phrase
Speaker 1: young lady.
Speaker 3: And she was wearing dark lip liner with a pale lipstick.
Speaker 3: She looked so good, and I just blurted out, I
Speaker 3: need exactly what you're wearing. And she sat me down
Speaker 3: and she did me up, and she gave me Bobby
Speaker 3: Brown's lipliner in rum raisin.
Speaker 1: This is so I used to have that. This is
Speaker 1: so ninety, which is a brown terra cotta brown if
Speaker 1: you will, ye, I'm getting like flashbacks.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And she gave me a sort of baby pink
Speaker 3: Na's lipstick to wear on the top of it. And
Speaker 3: it does feel nineties, but it feels like it's a
Speaker 3: little bit edgy in a good way for me. And
Speaker 3: the interesting thing is, I think it's just very flattering
Speaker 3: to outline your lips and that went out of fashion.
Speaker 1: Palony liipliner, we just we haven't. I've started using liipliner again.
Speaker 3: It was such a faux pat do you remember for
Speaker 3: the last twenty years it was basically a faux par
Speaker 3: to wear lipliner.
Speaker 2: You know what it looks like because I'm looking obviously
Speaker 2: at ilips, I've been looking at them for a couple
Speaker 2: of days. Knowing that you're doing.
Speaker 1: This rather sounds a little creepy, I.
Speaker 2: Know, sorry, but what it's kind of added like mentioned,
Speaker 2: do you know what I mean? It's not like you
Speaker 2: look if you listen to this and thinking she's got
Speaker 2: like an outline, You've got it. It's not that it
Speaker 2: just gives it like, yeah, it makes your lips pop.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah.
Speaker 3: And it's a little bit high maintenance because for the
Speaker 3: longest time we were just sort of rocking a like
Speaker 3: pale pink lip gloss. But I think it's it's well
Speaker 3: keep things tidy.
Speaker 1: And the trick that I learned is if you don't
Speaker 1: want to do the dark one and the lighter one
Speaker 1: inside is a neutral lipliner before any color. So if
Speaker 1: you're just going to buy one lipliner, just buy a
Speaker 1: neutral one that's just a bit darker than your lips.
Speaker 1: So even if you're wearing red, use that first to
Speaker 1: just define the outline of your lip.
Speaker 3: I got a glimpse of you when you used to
Speaker 3: be a beauty editors.
Speaker 1: Did you ever use the perfect pout? I've got a
Speaker 1: recommendation for a book by a well known author and
Speaker 1: friend of the Pod and former executive producer of No
Speaker 1: Filter or she still is the executive producer of No Filter,
Speaker 1: but she used to be my producer. Her name is
Speaker 1: Niama Brown. She wrote one of my favorite books from
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago called The Shot, which is
Speaker 1: a phenomenal, romping, page turning novel about a reality TV show.
Speaker 1: Did you have watch The Swan where they get plastic
Speaker 1: surgery and it's a reality show. It's that but on
Speaker 1: massive steroids. It's like The Bachelor, but it's a whole
Speaker 1: big thing. It was fantastic. Her new book is called
Speaker 1: Mother Tongue and it follows a woman called Brin. She's
Speaker 1: a suburban mum who wakes up from a coma speaking
Speaker 1: fluent French. Have you heard that thing about when people
Speaker 1: can wake up speaking other languages? And what it does
Speaker 1: is that it actually completely upends her life and she
Speaker 1: leaves her family and moves to Paris to start a
Speaker 1: new life. It really is and it explores like the
Speaker 1: fall out of her family and what it means about motherhood,
Speaker 1: and in Paris she becomes this successful model. It's a
Speaker 1: book that's got a lot of dark humor and insight.
Speaker 1: It's out this week. Highly recommend Mother Tongue by name.
Speaker 2: I think you'd like it, Amelia, because it also has
Speaker 2: this political undertone because it's set in America and Brinn's
Speaker 2: husband is quite trumpy and she's sort of finding this
Speaker 2: very conventional traditional role that she's in suffocating. It poses
Speaker 2: a lot of like quite provocative questions about how much
Speaker 2: you should care about yourself and your when you're a
Speaker 2: well identity is and so you know, it's like save yourself,
Speaker 2: but who you're leaving behind kind of thing. It's really interesting.
Speaker 2: I've got a reco that is counterintuitive for me, right
Speaker 2: because you know how mea is a doctor, you know, Mia.
Speaker 1: She studied hard, she did. You got to give it.
Speaker 2: As well as being the person who fixed me up
Speaker 2: with the hair dresser and telling me what pants to wear,
Speaker 2: she's also the person that you go to and you say,
Speaker 2: should I go to the doctor about this?
Speaker 1: Mole? Like that generally.
Speaker 2: Mia, she loves it.
Speaker 1: I'm the other way.
Speaker 2: I am health avoidant and I get a bit intimidated
Speaker 2: by health information by doctors. And so Mama Mia has
Speaker 2: launched a big new content pillar this week called Well,
Speaker 2: which is all about health, and it's got a podcast
Speaker 2: that's hosted by Claire Murphy, friend of the poem Murphy
Speaker 2: wonderful Quickie host.
Speaker 1: Do you know what I love about this show is
Speaker 1: that when Claire Murphy was the host of the Quickie,
Speaker 1: she had to be quite serious, but whenever she'd come
Speaker 1: on out loud, there would be a different side of
Speaker 1: Claire that people would here and on. Well, it's version
Speaker 1: of Claire. She laughs a lot and she's prepared.
Speaker 2: With the doctor, right, doctor Marriam. She's a Sydney based GP.
Speaker 2: She's really no nonsense.
Speaker 1: She's great.
Speaker 2: And when we were launching this, I went to the launch.
Speaker 2: It's kind of health, real life health stuff like a
Speaker 2: full body check for women, and there was this board
Speaker 2: at the launch where you could stick a sticker if
Speaker 2: you related to it, so it said things like, have
Speaker 2: you ever tried a treatment that you saw on the internet,
Speaker 2: diagnosed yourself with something that only three people in Australia
Speaker 2: have compared the color of your period blood.
Speaker 1: With your friends?
Speaker 2: Right, people would go and stick their stickers.
Speaker 1: City for us to do when we're on the road.
Speaker 2: I oh, and this is very me, Like ignored something
Speaker 2: because you think you're too busy, that's very me. So
Speaker 2: a lot of women relate to a lot of this.
Speaker 2: And the thing that's great about well is that it's
Speaker 2: very accessible. So if you're a bit of a health
Speaker 2: avoidant person like me, it's entertaining. There's going to be newsletters,
Speaker 2: there's fact sheets, it's the whole box and dice. In
Speaker 2: the first episode, they do talk about something called a
Speaker 2: sperm graveyard, which is where maybe if you're having sex
Speaker 2: with men without a condom, and where do all those.
Speaker 1: Sperms that don't get a graveyard bemy, they all go
Speaker 1: to a special place to die. Well. To find out
Speaker 1: where that place is.
Speaker 2: You can find well in your podcast app of course
Speaker 2: a Mom and Me I will put a link in.
Speaker 1: The show notes.
Speaker 2: It is great, dinner, parties, dancing, Yes, we're talking nightmares
Speaker 2: literal and otherwise it's Best and Worst.
Speaker 1: Do you want daily out Loud access? Why wouldn't you?
Speaker 1: We drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mum
Speaker 1: and Me are subscribers. Follow the link in the show
Speaker 1: notes to get us in your ears five days a
Speaker 1: week and a huge thank you if you're already a subscriber.
Speaker 1: It's time for Best and Worst, the part of the
Speaker 1: show where we share a little more from our personal lives.
Speaker 1: I'm going to go first. My worst and Best happened
Speaker 1: on the same two days. We had to do a
Speaker 1: special secret squirrel shoot for the out Loud tour, and
Speaker 1: it involved a lot of costumes. In involved some singing,
Speaker 1: In involves some choreography. It involved several changes of hair, makeup,
Speaker 1: and outfit. And I used to think that I wanted
Speaker 1: to be a pop star secretly, like I wanted to
Speaker 1: be maybe a spice girl, maybe Kylie, I don't know
Speaker 1: that that would be just so awesome, or maybe an actor.
Speaker 1: Maybe I wanted to be secretly like Nicole Kidman or
Speaker 1: you know, my Robbie. I learned on this shoot I
Speaker 1: would last two seconds because shoots take a long time.
Speaker 1: And I was a whiny little bitch. I was so bored.
Speaker 1: At one point, at about four point thirty, I just
Speaker 1: yelped I need to go home because I couldn't take
Speaker 1: it anymore. There was so much waiting.
Speaker 2: Would you pass your tiny violin to me?
Speaker 1: Please?
Speaker 2: I know, like people will be like, well, you didn't
Speaker 2: have to sit at a computer all day. You got
Speaker 2: to sing and dance and have makeup put on you.
Speaker 1: What fun? I know, And this is what's so strange.
Speaker 1: It would seem like I should have loved that, but
Speaker 1: I didn't, And I realized my happy place. I just
Speaker 1: wanted to be alone with my laptop. Does it give
Speaker 1: you a new found respect.
Speaker 3: You know how you and I are both obsessed with
Speaker 3: the nineties supermodels. Yes, does it give you a new
Speaker 3: found respect? You know how they're always like, well, Christy
Speaker 3: challenging is just the most professional of all.
Speaker 1: Now you'll know what I would have been, Naomi Campbell
Speaker 1: throwing a fine you would My best of the week, though,
Speaker 1: was all the other people on that shoot and seeing
Speaker 1: how professional they were, A very big cast of people
Speaker 1: behind the scenes, in front of the scenes. Everyone was
Speaker 1: very lovely to me. I didn't deserve it, and there
Speaker 1: were good snacks out loud as.
Speaker 2: I promise that if you come to the show and
Speaker 2: you see the end result of this, it was.
Speaker 1: Worth it in every way. Oh yeah, I was totally
Speaker 1: worth it. That was just my personal worst. I realized
Speaker 1: that I would have made a terrible pop star or supermodel,
Speaker 1: let the record show.
Speaker 2: Or actress because actresses, because one of the things is
Speaker 2: there's a lot of setting up a shot. Yes, and
Speaker 2: obviously we're not super famous, so you stand there while
Speaker 2: they set up a shot. Imagine that Nicole has a
Speaker 2: body double stars, but there's a lot of that. It
Speaker 2: makes you realize anyway, my worst is a disguised best,
Speaker 2: but I have to get it out this week for
Speaker 2: somebody who has the kind of celebrity icon obsessions that
Speaker 2: I do. You're Gwyneth's, your Megan's, you're Jennifer Anist, You're.
Speaker 1: A basic bitch, elder millennial gen X.
Speaker 2: Yes, it's been hard to keep up. For example, I
Speaker 2: can't that Gwyneth and Meghan are sitting together in a
Speaker 2: kitchen the point we're recording this. It's not clear why
Speaker 2: they are, if they're recording an episode of something. If
Speaker 2: it's just that Gwyneth has managed to get past security.
Speaker 2: She did say in that profile last week that she
Speaker 2: wanted to take Megan a pie, but that there was
Speaker 2: too much security at the gate. So maybe she busted
Speaker 2: her way in.
Speaker 1: Who knows.
Speaker 2: I don't know, but it just feels like all my
Speaker 2: favorite people are coming together and coalescing, and I couldn't
Speaker 2: be more excited. Meghan dropped her shopping line like, well,
Speaker 2: we're not a shopping line, but her affiliate links page.
Speaker 1: Did the Meghan Duchess of Sussex. I may earn a
Speaker 1: commission from anything that you buy on this list.
Speaker 2: We talked about it on Wednesday, but it's like it's.
Speaker 3: A lot going for dinner with Pedro Pascal.
Speaker 2: Well and then Jen. And the thing is is I
Speaker 2: need Mia when she has a hot minute to go
Speaker 2: and observe those paparazzi pictures of Jen and Pedro closely,
Speaker 2: because what Jen is wearing is going to enrage Mia.
Speaker 2: She is wearing what she has been wearing, the exact
Speaker 2: thing that she has been wearing.
Speaker 1: I want to hear it. Have already given some feedback
Speaker 1: to Gen about her hair. I feel like I need
Speaker 1: to just back off. And she's wearing a white teeth.
Speaker 1: Not that we look at paparazzi photos ever, because we
Speaker 1: don't have very but my eyes glanced at them briefly,
Speaker 1: and she was wearing a white T shirt with a
Speaker 1: black waistcoat over the top. It's a lot and jeans
Speaker 1: with cuffs, which I thought, well, it's been coming back.
Speaker 2: Enormously fun for me, but also slow down, I have stressful.
Speaker 1: I think that's fair. My best is a very petty
Speaker 1: best that I love.
Speaker 2: Right, don't worry. I'm not going to tell you about
Speaker 2: my dreams because that's the worst thing that ever happens.
Speaker 2: But do you ever have one of those nightmares? Wait
Speaker 2: in your nightmare you're trying to shout but nothing comes out. Yes,
Speaker 2: that's the one I have all the time.
Speaker 1: Right, What does that mean that you mean silence or
Speaker 1: you are silent?
Speaker 2: So I was having one of those dreams the other night, right,
Speaker 2: and I was trying to tell someone about a bad guy.
Speaker 2: So in my dream, I'm shouting, it's him, it's that guy. Right,
Speaker 2: nothing was coming out. Text me immediately said Rant was
Speaker 2: away that night. He was taking Matilda to one of
Speaker 2: her twenty five million football games in.
Speaker 1: Some far from place.
Speaker 2: But I woke up in the middle of this dream
Speaker 2: to the dog licking my face because you know how
Speaker 2: you think you're shouting and you actually are, like in
Speaker 2: your in your sleep, you're going get back.
Speaker 1: She didn't jumped on the bed to try and perform
Speaker 1: the highway conover her mastssly really disturbed and she.
Speaker 2: Jumped up and she was like mom, And I was like,
Speaker 2: good dog, good dog saved me from the background.
Speaker 1: So good. I'm glad you didn't like clock her in
Speaker 1: the face.
Speaker 2: She was some funny I'm just imagining the dogs were
Speaker 2: actually hearing this, like strangled, like like what lifted her ears?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 4: Mom?
Speaker 1: Anyway, do you know that's funny because my dog jumped
Speaker 1: on the bed last night for absolutely no reason. I
Speaker 1: wasn't having a nightmare. It was the middle of the night.
Speaker 1: I think she just wanted to put her tongue in
Speaker 1: my mouth. Amelia, what was your worst of the week
Speaker 1: and your best?
Speaker 3: I mean, it's hard to top house stressful celebrity gossipers
Speaker 3: right now. I agree, there's a lot going on. So
Speaker 3: I went to a very lovely dinner party on the weekend.
Speaker 3: Some new friends invitim me over. I love a dinner party,
Speaker 3: and I was so impressed. And they had a signed
Speaker 3: seating which I love, and there were three different desserts.
Speaker 1: Did they state the couples next to each other? No,
Speaker 1: that's such a faux pat I never want to sit
Speaker 1: next to me. Tell me where to see at the
Speaker 1: dinner party. You don't want to sit next to him?
Speaker 1: Did you both know everybody there? No, we knew no one.
Speaker 3: It was delightful. It was an extroverts dream. So the
Speaker 3: dinner party itself was lovely. Oh and they said this
Speaker 3: amazing cocktail in a big jug when we all got there,
Speaker 3: which was made with like prosecco and sorbet.
Speaker 1: How do you know when it's time to go home.
Speaker 1: That's what makes me feel anxious.
Speaker 3: Oh I love to leave a dinner party with everyone
Speaker 3: wanting more from me.
Speaker 1: So I typically round nine forty five, just citing a baby,
Speaker 1: just as I just cite a babysity that just after.
Speaker 2: She said me, So I emailed Mark Zuckerberg on Facebook.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I do love leaving. I once read the
Speaker 1: Anna Win Tour.
Speaker 3: The editor of USFO Devil was prior of inspiration, leaves
Speaker 3: every party after fifteen minutes and only ever has one
Speaker 3: glass of champagne.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, that's me. I aspire to that anyway.
Speaker 3: So the dinner party itself was lovely, but you know,
Speaker 3: talk turned to politics, and I know this is Friday,
Speaker 3: so I'm going to keep it very vague, but you know,
Speaker 3: things are happening in politics, just like they are in
Speaker 3: celebrity gossips. And I am a joint Australian American citizen.
Speaker 3: So I was sharing some anxieties that I'm having about
Speaker 3: the state of one of those countries politics.
Speaker 1: I'll as leave you to guess which.
Speaker 3: One, and I was sort of saying, look, my home
Speaker 3: is changing.
Speaker 1: America's my home.
Speaker 3: Australia is my home, and I was saying, I don't
Speaker 3: know what's going to happen to my home in America,
Speaker 3: and as an immigrant to America, obviously a very privileged one,
Speaker 3: but nonetheless someone who has chosen to make America my home,
Speaker 3: I have certain worries about the direction it's going in.
Speaker 3: And there were two people seated next to me. One
Speaker 3: was from Russia, left after the Ukraine War started, and
Speaker 3: the other was from South Africa. Family came to Australia
Speaker 3: many years ago when politics in South Africa were particularly contentious,
Speaker 3: and I realized they were both just looking at me
Speaker 3: with the most sort of long suffering faces, and I
Speaker 3: realized it's because Australia and America have been exceptional around
Speaker 3: the world for not having to worry about the state
Speaker 3: of other politics. And these people are like, welcome to
Speaker 3: the world. Yeah, your country is tumultuous, things are unpredictable. Essentially,
Speaker 3: get over yourself in the most sympathetic way possible.
Speaker 1: And it was a reality check for me.
Speaker 3: I realized how privileged it was for me to be like, well,
Speaker 3: politics are.
Speaker 1: Very stressful for me right now, and I don't know
Speaker 1: what's going to happen.
Speaker 3: Meanwhile, people in basically every other country on the planet
Speaker 3: have been dealing with this forever, so.
Speaker 1: That was a really interesting reality check.
Speaker 3: The best was something that I hope a lot of
Speaker 3: people listening can relate to because Australia is a nation
Speaker 3: of immigrants and a lot of people here come from
Speaker 3: other places.
Speaker 1: And my brother lives.
Speaker 3: In London, and I have one brother, and he and
Speaker 3: I were very close growing up, despite a seven year
Speaker 3: age gap, and we lived in the same city. We
Speaker 3: lived in New York for about ten years together. We
Speaker 3: saw each other every weekend. We were very close. He
Speaker 3: moved to London, I moved to Sydney and we're no
Speaker 3: longer close. I'm afraid to say that that time difference,
Speaker 3: it's wholly must know. World between the UK and Australia
Speaker 3: is just awful.
Speaker 1: There's just no way.
Speaker 3: To ever have a conversation which you're just in a
Speaker 3: very different It's always either early morning, late night.
Speaker 1: You're very rarely in the same It's really hard.
Speaker 3: And then, as with a lot of sibling relationships, we've
Speaker 3: gone in very different directions with our lives. He lives
Speaker 3: a very different life to me, but he and his
Speaker 3: family are coming to visit this week. Can for an
Speaker 3: extended period during the UK school holidays, and I'm really
Speaker 3: excited to reconnect because sometimes you do have to have
Speaker 3: conversations with your siblings or in any relationship in person
Speaker 3: to maintain them.
Speaker 1: It's just been too hard.
Speaker 2: My brother is And I know this is a stereotype,
Speaker 2: but like the classic man who's no good on the phone,
Speaker 2: no good on text, no good on anything except face
Speaker 2: to face. So it's very hard.
Speaker 1: If you yeah, my brothers, it's very different. He just
Speaker 1: always wants to tell me how much he loves me.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, he's got a lot of big feelings,
Speaker 1: my brother. He just is very like I just love
Speaker 1: you so much, and I'm like slower role that is
Speaker 1: so lovely, but just role, you just live down the road.
Speaker 1: I'm so happy for you. Thank you beautiful. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2: All right, that is all we have time for today.
Speaker 2: Out Loud is a massive thank you to you all
Speaker 2: for listening to our show all week. We're going to
Speaker 2: be back in him Is next week. Thank you Amelia
Speaker 2: very much fulfilling him for our Jesse And why don't
Speaker 2: you and me a read this out.
Speaker 1: We have some people to thank for helping us to
Speaker 1: be here in your ears. Group executive producer Ruth Devine,
Speaker 1: Executive producer Emmeline Gazillis.
Speaker 3: Audio producer is Leah Porges, video producer is Josh Green,
Speaker 3: and our junior content producers are co Co and Tessa.
Speaker 1: Goodbye bye, except I'm still here. We're going to leave
Speaker 1: you with a bit of a conversation we had on
Speaker 1: the subscriber episode yesterday with Amelia about a little whoopsie
Speaker 1: that happened in a group chat, because don't you hate
Speaker 1: it when you're a journalist who gets added to the
Speaker 1: political chat about a war? And I think we've all
Speaker 1: been there. We'll pup a link in the show notes.
Speaker 2: Shout out to any Mamma Mia subscribers listening. If you
Speaker 2: love the show and you want to support us, subscribing
Speaker 2: to Mamma Mia is the very.
Speaker 1: Best way to do it.
Speaker 2: There's a link in the episode description.
Speaker 3: Play Spain the bagbook, Bag, tax Book, tack Book,