1 00:00:10,622 --> 00:00:13,342 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 2 00:00:13,822 --> 00:00:17,221 Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 3 00:00:17,222 --> 00:00:18,982 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. 4 00:00:20,741 --> 00:00:23,781 Speaker 3: Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia out loud. That's what 5 00:00:23,822 --> 00:00:27,262 Speaker 3: women are actually talking about on Monday, the first of September. 6 00:00:27,382 --> 00:00:28,582 Speaker 3: My name is Holly Wainwright. 7 00:00:28,781 --> 00:00:32,141 Speaker 4: I'm Jesse Stevens, I'm Amelia Lost and here is what 8 00:00:32,382 --> 00:00:34,302 Speaker 4: is on our agenda for to day. 9 00:00:35,022 --> 00:00:39,101 Speaker 3: Thousands of Australians marched under flags yesterday and if you 10 00:00:39,182 --> 00:00:43,022 Speaker 3: ask them why, the answers ranged from just asking questions 11 00:00:43,022 --> 00:00:45,942 Speaker 3: concerned citizen to Nazism. 12 00:00:45,662 --> 00:00:49,222 Speaker 4: Plus the popular fertility test that doctors want you to ignore. 13 00:00:49,582 --> 00:00:52,982 Speaker 1: And Pam Anderson and Liam Neeson lied to us about 14 00:00:53,022 --> 00:00:55,782 Speaker 1: their love why do I feel duped? 15 00:00:57,062 --> 00:01:00,222 Speaker 4: But first, in case you missed it, viral footage that 16 00:01:00,302 --> 00:01:05,461 Speaker 4: circulated over the weekend captured a millionaire CEO behaving very 17 00:01:05,542 --> 00:01:08,581 Speaker 4: very poorly. So to set the scene, we've got Polish 18 00:01:08,702 --> 00:01:13,502 Speaker 4: tennis player emil Marjacques who won his match on Saturday, 19 00:01:13,542 --> 00:01:16,862 Speaker 4: the US Open, and as often happens, he then made 20 00:01:16,942 --> 00:01:20,302 Speaker 4: his way to the crowd to go and sign some autographs. 21 00:01:20,542 --> 00:01:23,622 Speaker 4: And there's this gorgeous young boy who is then seen 22 00:01:23,742 --> 00:01:28,462 Speaker 4: excitedly handing him a giant ball to sign. Marjack is 23 00:01:28,622 --> 00:01:31,182 Speaker 4: quite heartened by his enthusiasm, and we watch him in 24 00:01:31,182 --> 00:01:33,382 Speaker 4: this video take off his match worn hat and he 25 00:01:33,422 --> 00:01:35,021 Speaker 4: goes to hand it to the boy, but he's kind 26 00:01:35,022 --> 00:01:36,902 Speaker 4: of shuffling over as he does it. 27 00:01:37,062 --> 00:01:39,941 Speaker 5: You know how, you're a tennis correspondent. A sweaty hat's 28 00:01:39,942 --> 00:01:40,702 Speaker 5: a thing that you want. 29 00:01:40,902 --> 00:01:43,342 Speaker 4: Oh, that's a big deal to get a piece of 30 00:01:43,542 --> 00:01:48,702 Speaker 4: clothing that's got the Actually it's the sweat of a winner. Hollywayen, right, 31 00:01:49,062 --> 00:01:49,662 Speaker 4: I think that's. 32 00:01:49,542 --> 00:01:50,982 Speaker 5: A boil it down to drink in his teeth. 33 00:01:51,062 --> 00:01:53,022 Speaker 4: Oh my goodness, you could sell that on eBay for 34 00:01:53,062 --> 00:01:55,582 Speaker 4: a bit of money. And maybe that's what the adult 35 00:01:55,622 --> 00:02:00,222 Speaker 4: beside him was thinking, because this man appears to snatch 36 00:02:00,302 --> 00:02:03,262 Speaker 4: the hat kind of out of the boys just as 37 00:02:03,302 --> 00:02:05,662 Speaker 4: it's going towards the boy. He snatches it, snatches the 38 00:02:05,742 --> 00:02:09,102 Speaker 4: right word, and puts it in his bag, and the 39 00:02:09,142 --> 00:02:12,782 Speaker 4: boy books devastated and yells what are you doing? And 40 00:02:12,822 --> 00:02:14,902 Speaker 4: the tennis player at this point, so he's moved on 41 00:02:15,061 --> 00:02:19,382 Speaker 4: and he's missed the whole interaction. My first response to 42 00:02:19,462 --> 00:02:22,942 Speaker 4: this was, there's got to be something we're missing right, 43 00:02:23,462 --> 00:02:27,102 Speaker 4: and maybe this is the boy's father. There was some confusion. 44 00:02:27,382 --> 00:02:28,901 Speaker 4: We shouldn't jump to conclusions. 45 00:02:28,902 --> 00:02:30,022 Speaker 5: We've been burned before. 46 00:02:31,022 --> 00:02:34,582 Speaker 4: Unsurprisingly, the Internet was very quick to identify this man. 47 00:02:34,702 --> 00:02:37,462 Speaker 4: They needed to hunt him down. Yes, he is a 48 00:02:37,462 --> 00:02:42,621 Speaker 4: millionaire ceo. Amelia, what do you think people saw when 49 00:02:42,662 --> 00:02:45,222 Speaker 4: they watched this video? Because it did feel a little 50 00:02:45,222 --> 00:02:49,381 Speaker 4: bit Coldplay ceo coded all over again. Do you think 51 00:02:49,422 --> 00:02:52,542 Speaker 4: it was the millionaire element that made people particularly invested. 52 00:02:52,942 --> 00:02:56,542 Speaker 1: Look, I think this is even worse than the Coldplay CEO. 53 00:02:57,022 --> 00:03:00,342 Speaker 1: Sheesharek who was? I apologize for my Polish pronunciation, but 54 00:03:00,462 --> 00:03:03,542 Speaker 1: I am, in fact Polish soufense I am allowed to 55 00:03:03,542 --> 00:03:06,781 Speaker 1: mispronounce these names. Sheeshareck who was? That's the name of 56 00:03:06,822 --> 00:03:10,542 Speaker 1: the millionaire ceo. I just want to say, in his defense, 57 00:03:10,742 --> 00:03:13,102 Speaker 1: he made his fortune in paving, which I don't think 58 00:03:13,102 --> 00:03:16,502 Speaker 1: you mentioned. No, No, he does sponsor with his paving 59 00:03:16,582 --> 00:03:20,302 Speaker 1: fortune his local tennis federation in Poland. So there's that. 60 00:03:20,942 --> 00:03:23,582 Speaker 1: And he has also tried to reach out to make 61 00:03:23,622 --> 00:03:26,942 Speaker 1: amends with the boy, that's according to Mishak, So we 62 00:03:26,982 --> 00:03:29,502 Speaker 1: should say that in his defense now, having been fair 63 00:03:29,502 --> 00:03:31,382 Speaker 1: to him, bring. 64 00:03:31,181 --> 00:03:33,582 Speaker 3: It because the bit that got me in the video particular, 65 00:03:33,742 --> 00:03:35,862 Speaker 3: was the shoving it in the bag. There was the 66 00:03:35,902 --> 00:03:37,462 Speaker 3: grabbing it was one thing, but the shoving it in 67 00:03:37,502 --> 00:03:39,182 Speaker 3: the bag was the verus. 68 00:03:38,822 --> 00:03:41,142 Speaker 4: And ignoring the protests of the boys. 69 00:03:41,222 --> 00:03:44,102 Speaker 1: So there was a purported statement that came out from 70 00:03:44,102 --> 00:03:46,742 Speaker 1: this man, the Paving Millionaire as I will refer to 71 00:03:46,822 --> 00:03:49,382 Speaker 1: him from now on. It's circulated on social media over 72 00:03:49,422 --> 00:03:51,462 Speaker 1: the weekend and it said, yes, I took it, but 73 00:03:51,582 --> 00:03:56,382 Speaker 1: as always, first come, first served is life now. Unfortunately 74 00:03:56,462 --> 00:03:59,782 Speaker 1: this has not been verified as coming from the paving Millionaire. 75 00:04:00,182 --> 00:04:02,662 Speaker 1: But the reason why I think everyone latched onto it 76 00:04:02,702 --> 00:04:05,182 Speaker 1: and wanted to believe it came from him is because 77 00:04:05,302 --> 00:04:08,822 Speaker 1: it spoke to how we feel about CEOs right now. 78 00:04:08,862 --> 00:04:11,902 Speaker 1: And watching this, all I could think was is not 79 00:04:12,022 --> 00:04:16,262 Speaker 1: the most perfect visual representation of what the rapacious millionaire 80 00:04:16,301 --> 00:04:19,582 Speaker 1: and billionaire class are doing to our younger people, stealing 81 00:04:19,582 --> 00:04:22,782 Speaker 1: from them. But they are all personal enrichment and rapaciousness. 82 00:04:23,142 --> 00:04:23,861 Speaker 5: Don't you reckon that? 83 00:04:23,942 --> 00:04:26,981 Speaker 4: Millionaire CEOs need some good per they need. 84 00:04:26,861 --> 00:04:28,502 Speaker 1: It's not been a good summer for them. 85 00:04:28,582 --> 00:04:28,902 Speaker 5: It's not. 86 00:04:29,022 --> 00:04:31,061 Speaker 1: But you know what last summer was the summer where 87 00:04:31,101 --> 00:04:33,581 Speaker 1: we had the billionaires being taken by the Orcas, so 88 00:04:33,662 --> 00:04:36,981 Speaker 1: I think they'd rather take some humiliating on camera footage. 89 00:04:37,022 --> 00:04:37,461 Speaker 1: I like that. 90 00:04:37,621 --> 00:04:38,741 Speaker 5: I like that summer better. 91 00:04:38,902 --> 00:04:41,382 Speaker 4: We should say as well, that this did end up 92 00:04:41,421 --> 00:04:44,862 Speaker 4: as a good news story because the tennis player Marjacques. 93 00:04:45,222 --> 00:04:47,502 Speaker 4: He then jumped onto Instagram and was like, I didn't 94 00:04:47,582 --> 00:04:50,142 Speaker 4: realize that that little boy didn't get the hat. Can 95 00:04:50,181 --> 00:04:50,981 Speaker 4: you please help. 96 00:04:50,821 --> 00:04:51,662 Speaker 1: Me identify him? 97 00:04:52,101 --> 00:04:54,382 Speaker 4: And a bunch of people flootered to his Instagram and 98 00:04:54,582 --> 00:04:57,101 Speaker 4: gave him the boys details, and then there's a beautiful 99 00:04:57,101 --> 00:05:01,181 Speaker 4: photo series of them meeting. He gives him a autographed hat, 100 00:05:01,222 --> 00:05:03,142 Speaker 4: he gives him a bunch of gifts, and they got 101 00:05:03,142 --> 00:05:03,902 Speaker 4: a photo together. 102 00:05:04,222 --> 00:05:06,702 Speaker 1: So it's good news, bad news for my Polish birdsroom this. 103 00:05:07,621 --> 00:05:10,101 Speaker 3: I feel like Donald Trump would have taken that. That's 104 00:05:10,101 --> 00:05:11,621 Speaker 3: what we're seeing here, if he would have. 105 00:05:11,621 --> 00:05:15,141 Speaker 5: Been like Los shoved on into the head. 106 00:05:15,222 --> 00:05:18,662 Speaker 3: This is the effect we're seeing come to a march. 107 00:05:18,782 --> 00:05:21,582 Speaker 3: The flyers and Facebook posts said to send a message 108 00:05:21,582 --> 00:05:24,501 Speaker 3: to politicians and big business that their vision for a 109 00:05:24,541 --> 00:05:29,462 Speaker 3: big Australia is flawed, that ordinary Aussies do not want 110 00:05:29,821 --> 00:05:33,822 Speaker 3: mass migration come to the march. The leaflets said, and 111 00:05:33,861 --> 00:05:37,581 Speaker 3: I quote, because each migrant means they and by they, 112 00:05:37,702 --> 00:05:40,662 Speaker 3: according to these leaflets, they mean the big supermarkets, the 113 00:05:40,702 --> 00:05:44,181 Speaker 3: big banks. Each migrant means they can sell another three 114 00:05:44,262 --> 00:05:47,022 Speaker 3: hundred and sixty five days worth of food or another mortgage. 115 00:05:47,061 --> 00:05:53,222 Speaker 3: The only cost our nation. Whether you're concerned for our culture, wages, traffic, 116 00:05:53,621 --> 00:05:58,742 Speaker 3: housing supply, water supply, environmental destruction, infrastructure, hospitals, crime or 117 00:05:58,821 --> 00:06:02,941 Speaker 3: loss of community. We are stronger together exclamation mark. Don't 118 00:06:03,022 --> 00:06:06,582 Speaker 3: leave this work to be done by your children. The 119 00:06:06,621 --> 00:06:09,222 Speaker 3: marches that they are encouraging people to come to we 120 00:06:09,381 --> 00:06:12,061 Speaker 3: called the March for Australia and they were held in 121 00:06:12,101 --> 00:06:16,782 Speaker 3: capital cities around the country on Sunday yesterday and according 122 00:06:16,821 --> 00:06:20,181 Speaker 3: to reports, more than twenty thousand people around the nation. 123 00:06:20,621 --> 00:06:23,862 Speaker 3: He did the call and went to the marches right now. 124 00:06:23,902 --> 00:06:27,421 Speaker 3: It wasn't clear exactly who was behind the march, so 125 00:06:27,541 --> 00:06:29,501 Speaker 3: the words I just read to you were from flyers 126 00:06:29,541 --> 00:06:31,662 Speaker 3: that were available to be downloaded and printed out and 127 00:06:31,662 --> 00:06:34,861 Speaker 3: shared on Facebook from a website called March for Australia, 128 00:06:35,181 --> 00:06:37,941 Speaker 3: but no one organization was claiming. 129 00:06:37,662 --> 00:06:38,301 Speaker 5: To be it. 130 00:06:38,462 --> 00:06:42,342 Speaker 3: But there were a few clues. In Melbourne, for example, 131 00:06:42,582 --> 00:06:44,861 Speaker 3: a man called Thomas Saul took to the stage at 132 00:06:44,861 --> 00:06:48,941 Speaker 3: Flinders Street. He is the leader of the National Socialist Network, 133 00:06:49,262 --> 00:06:51,981 Speaker 3: a white supremacist group that is believed to be behind, 134 00:06:52,181 --> 00:06:55,342 Speaker 3: among other things, the disruption of the ANZAC Day Welcome 135 00:06:55,381 --> 00:06:58,782 Speaker 3: to Country in Melbourne this year. Right, that guy is 136 00:06:58,821 --> 00:07:02,541 Speaker 3: known to police as an organization. They are widely reported 137 00:07:02,541 --> 00:07:04,981 Speaker 3: to be trying to establish a new political party and 138 00:07:05,022 --> 00:07:07,862 Speaker 3: they need to convince so called ordinary Aussies to their 139 00:07:07,902 --> 00:07:11,182 Speaker 3: cause in Melbourn. Then he got up and he kind 140 00:07:11,222 --> 00:07:13,021 Speaker 3: of made his case for why it was okay for 141 00:07:13,102 --> 00:07:15,381 Speaker 3: some of the people at the marches to feel unsettled 142 00:07:15,662 --> 00:07:17,701 Speaker 3: by the guys in black suits. Because there were quite 143 00:07:17,702 --> 00:07:20,062 Speaker 3: a wide range of people at these marches, but there 144 00:07:20,102 --> 00:07:23,742 Speaker 3: were noticeably some guys dressed in black. There was some 145 00:07:23,862 --> 00:07:27,542 Speaker 3: Nazi symbolism, and there were also some people waving signs 146 00:07:27,542 --> 00:07:30,102 Speaker 3: of Desi Freeman, who's the man that police are still 147 00:07:30,182 --> 00:07:32,781 Speaker 3: hunting in the Victorian High Country for killing two officers 148 00:07:32,862 --> 00:07:35,982 Speaker 3: last week. What Saul said was, you might not like 149 00:07:36,022 --> 00:07:39,221 Speaker 3: the guy's favorite color or his particular opinions of history, 150 00:07:39,582 --> 00:07:41,581 Speaker 3: but when you're in a fight with people that hate 151 00:07:41,582 --> 00:07:45,302 Speaker 3: this country, sometimes you have to learn to make friends. 152 00:07:45,582 --> 00:07:47,581 Speaker 3: I'm asking you to respect that we need to put 153 00:07:47,622 --> 00:07:49,902 Speaker 3: fighters at the front. We are here today to set 154 00:07:49,941 --> 00:07:53,902 Speaker 3: aside our minute differences on historical events or versions of ideology. 155 00:07:54,142 --> 00:07:58,502 Speaker 3: We are here as Australians, proud and true. Meanwhile, in Sydney, 156 00:07:58,902 --> 00:08:01,542 Speaker 3: some of the Nazism was a bit more blatant. It 157 00:08:01,662 --> 00:08:05,262 Speaker 3: was a rising right wing influencer called Beck Freedom obviously 158 00:08:05,381 --> 00:08:07,502 Speaker 3: not her real name, who was the person who lodged 159 00:08:07,542 --> 00:08:11,262 Speaker 3: the application for the march. But what's interesting about this 160 00:08:11,502 --> 00:08:14,262 Speaker 3: is that Beck Freedom was also the subject of some 161 00:08:14,381 --> 00:08:18,822 Speaker 3: leaked audio recently. She was apparently addressing a live stream 162 00:08:18,941 --> 00:08:22,222 Speaker 3: on August the eleventh, and she was explaining to people 163 00:08:22,262 --> 00:08:24,102 Speaker 3: how to talk to people in their lives who were 164 00:08:24,142 --> 00:08:27,821 Speaker 3: worried that this march might be perceived as racist. She said, 165 00:08:28,582 --> 00:08:30,902 Speaker 3: this is how I tried to explain it to someone. 166 00:08:31,102 --> 00:08:35,502 Speaker 3: I say, okay, so protect Australian heritage, culture, way of life. 167 00:08:35,902 --> 00:08:40,422 Speaker 3: Next step, protect European culture, heritage, way of life. And 168 00:08:40,462 --> 00:08:42,342 Speaker 3: then she went on to talk a little bit more 169 00:08:42,342 --> 00:08:44,422 Speaker 3: about that, how to appease people who are saying, oh, 170 00:08:44,502 --> 00:08:46,622 Speaker 3: it's a Nazi rally. But to be honest, the words 171 00:08:46,622 --> 00:08:49,342 Speaker 3: are just a bit too offensive for us to read out. Jesse, 172 00:08:49,702 --> 00:08:52,062 Speaker 3: were you surprised to see the size of some of 173 00:08:52,102 --> 00:08:55,822 Speaker 3: these protests on Friday, only hundreds of people were registered 174 00:08:55,822 --> 00:08:58,382 Speaker 3: to attend, and yet the Sydney one in particular was 175 00:08:58,422 --> 00:08:59,222 Speaker 3: really quite big. 176 00:08:59,742 --> 00:09:02,102 Speaker 4: On Friday, I thought this was going to be a 177 00:09:02,102 --> 00:09:04,342 Speaker 4: total beat up and part of me was like, should 178 00:09:04,382 --> 00:09:07,102 Speaker 4: we just ignore this, which is coming from my own 179 00:09:07,342 --> 00:09:10,502 Speaker 4: total position of white priv But looking at it, I 180 00:09:10,542 --> 00:09:13,622 Speaker 4: just went no, one thinks that, like, who's going to 181 00:09:13,662 --> 00:09:15,702 Speaker 4: show up. It's going to be a few hundred people 182 00:09:15,822 --> 00:09:20,582 Speaker 4: total all around the country. What was really shocking was 183 00:09:21,142 --> 00:09:24,142 Speaker 4: to me the amount of people who showed up, some 184 00:09:24,222 --> 00:09:27,462 Speaker 4: of the images, videos, chants, all that kind of stuff. 185 00:09:27,902 --> 00:09:31,822 Speaker 4: I found the appearance of the Australian flag really sinister. 186 00:09:32,262 --> 00:09:36,062 Speaker 4: I find that about flags sometimes in general, but the 187 00:09:36,102 --> 00:09:38,742 Speaker 4: way it was just draped around people and what they 188 00:09:38,782 --> 00:09:42,622 Speaker 4: were taking it to mean, it just felt so deeply offensive. 189 00:09:42,782 --> 00:09:46,262 Speaker 4: And also some people in covering their faces. I think, 190 00:09:46,302 --> 00:09:48,102 Speaker 4: if you ever find yourself at a protest and you 191 00:09:48,182 --> 00:09:50,422 Speaker 4: have to cover your face and that says something about 192 00:09:50,942 --> 00:09:54,982 Speaker 4: the cause. And the way that it was validated by 193 00:09:55,502 --> 00:10:00,462 Speaker 4: elected politicians was also horrific. So there was that press 194 00:10:00,462 --> 00:10:03,782 Speaker 4: conference last week where Bob Catter, who is an MP 195 00:10:03,862 --> 00:10:06,542 Speaker 4: in Queensland, he is hus been for a really long time. Yeah, 196 00:10:06,582 --> 00:10:10,742 Speaker 4: he was asked about his Lebanese heritage, which he does have. 197 00:10:11,022 --> 00:10:13,662 Speaker 4: In the sort of late nineteenth century, his family moved 198 00:10:13,662 --> 00:10:18,302 Speaker 4: from a town in Lebanon, and he absolutely lost his shit. 199 00:10:18,462 --> 00:10:20,022 Speaker 4: And you might have seen this, and I think it 200 00:10:20,102 --> 00:10:23,022 Speaker 4: was kind of positioned as something a bit funny to 201 00:10:23,102 --> 00:10:27,062 Speaker 4: see someone in such a respected position lose their temper. 202 00:10:27,622 --> 00:10:30,942 Speaker 4: But to me, apart from the absolute racism of what 203 00:10:31,062 --> 00:10:33,742 Speaker 4: he was spewing, which was basically like, how dare you 204 00:10:33,822 --> 00:10:37,782 Speaker 4: accuse me of being anything other than white, was like 205 00:10:37,982 --> 00:10:41,302 Speaker 4: he was physically threatening a journalist, And I think that 206 00:10:41,422 --> 00:10:45,622 Speaker 4: also says something about the sort of anarchism of this 207 00:10:45,902 --> 00:10:47,902 Speaker 4: entire movement was represented by that. 208 00:10:47,862 --> 00:10:50,502 Speaker 3: The journalist was asking him that question about his Lebanese 209 00:10:50,502 --> 00:10:53,382 Speaker 3: heritage in relation to this march. Right, So Kada had 210 00:10:53,382 --> 00:10:55,342 Speaker 3: said he was going to attend the Townsville march, and 211 00:10:55,342 --> 00:10:58,422 Speaker 3: so the journalist was saying to him in that context, 212 00:10:58,702 --> 00:11:01,702 Speaker 3: what about your Lebanese heritage, Bob, do you feel conflict 213 00:11:01,742 --> 00:11:03,822 Speaker 3: about that? And he threatened to punch him. 214 00:11:03,702 --> 00:11:05,662 Speaker 4: In the face, yeah, and said it was really racist 215 00:11:05,662 --> 00:11:08,182 Speaker 4: for someone to even ask that question. I have a 216 00:11:08,262 --> 00:11:12,062 Speaker 4: question though, because I have been reading a lot about 217 00:11:12,062 --> 00:11:16,262 Speaker 4: these protests, and what I still can't work out is 218 00:11:16,462 --> 00:11:19,782 Speaker 4: the catalyst. I kept going, Oh, is there a policy, 219 00:11:19,942 --> 00:11:22,822 Speaker 4: Is there a policy that's come up? Is there something 220 00:11:22,942 --> 00:11:26,862 Speaker 4: that's happening in politics that has inspired this ground swell 221 00:11:27,102 --> 00:11:30,942 Speaker 4: of anger? And I couldn't find it. I wondered if 222 00:11:31,022 --> 00:11:34,622 Speaker 4: it was some sort of echo of trumpy and anti 223 00:11:34,662 --> 00:11:37,582 Speaker 4: immigration policies that we're seeing in the US Amelia why 224 00:11:37,622 --> 00:11:39,502 Speaker 4: this weekend? Like where have these come from? 225 00:11:39,702 --> 00:11:41,102 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, I think there 226 00:11:41,102 --> 00:11:44,262 Speaker 1: are two reasons, and one has to do with global 227 00:11:44,462 --> 00:11:46,782 Speaker 1: trends and the other has to do with Australia. So 228 00:11:47,062 --> 00:11:51,302 Speaker 1: on the global trends, we're seeing multi ethnic democracy under 229 00:11:51,342 --> 00:11:54,022 Speaker 1: attack all over the world. So right now there are 230 00:11:54,102 --> 00:11:57,902 Speaker 1: about twenty five actual functioning democracies left in the world, 231 00:11:57,942 --> 00:12:00,902 Speaker 1: which is not very many, and we're seeing one of 232 00:12:00,942 --> 00:12:03,942 Speaker 1: the biggest ones of those already under attack right now. 233 00:12:03,982 --> 00:12:06,862 Speaker 1: In terms of this idea of diversity of strength, and 234 00:12:07,102 --> 00:12:10,502 Speaker 1: referring to the US diversity of strength that inration actually 235 00:12:10,502 --> 00:12:13,422 Speaker 1: can strengthen a nation's economy and its culture and its 236 00:12:13,422 --> 00:12:17,022 Speaker 1: resilience over time, that whole idea is under attack all 237 00:12:17,062 --> 00:12:19,822 Speaker 1: over the world, not just in Australia. And then I 238 00:12:19,822 --> 00:12:22,222 Speaker 1: think the second reason, and there's no point sort of 239 00:12:22,462 --> 00:12:25,622 Speaker 1: shying away from this fact. Immigration to Australia has really 240 00:12:25,662 --> 00:12:29,542 Speaker 1: increased over the last twenty years or so. So for instance, 241 00:12:29,862 --> 00:12:33,822 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety two they're about thirty thousand arrivals as migrants, 242 00:12:34,182 --> 00:12:36,902 Speaker 1: and by twenty twenty two that number was five hundred thousand, 243 00:12:37,302 --> 00:12:40,622 Speaker 1: and we saw a big leap, particularly after border reopenings 244 00:12:40,662 --> 00:12:42,742 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty one and twenty twenty two. Now part 245 00:12:42,742 --> 00:12:45,582 Speaker 1: of that was a backlog, but we've also seen governments 246 00:12:45,622 --> 00:12:48,022 Speaker 1: over the last couple of decades really make a concerted 247 00:12:48,062 --> 00:12:51,462 Speaker 1: effort to open up Australia to more migration. That's because 248 00:12:51,502 --> 00:12:53,782 Speaker 1: we need more migrants. We need them to do jobs 249 00:12:53,822 --> 00:12:56,302 Speaker 1: and to contribute to our economy and also to build 250 00:12:56,862 --> 00:13:00,782 Speaker 1: this idea of a diverse and multi ethnic democracy. But nonetheless, 251 00:13:00,822 --> 00:13:03,382 Speaker 1: those are the facts, and I think that it's interesting 252 00:13:03,382 --> 00:13:06,182 Speaker 1: that Anne Ali, who was the Minister for Multicultural Affairs, 253 00:13:06,182 --> 00:13:08,382 Speaker 1: made a really good point along these lines. She said 254 00:13:08,382 --> 00:13:11,182 Speaker 1: that she actually had some stituents of hers contact her 255 00:13:11,542 --> 00:13:14,102 Speaker 1: and say, I'm going to the rally because I have 256 00:13:14,182 --> 00:13:17,182 Speaker 1: concerns around housing and jobs and around the idea that 257 00:13:17,262 --> 00:13:19,582 Speaker 1: migrants are taking those from me. Now that's not actually 258 00:13:19,622 --> 00:13:22,182 Speaker 1: factually true, but we should acknowledge that that's a reason 259 00:13:22,222 --> 00:13:24,142 Speaker 1: that some people gave her. They said, we're not Nazis, 260 00:13:24,182 --> 00:13:27,302 Speaker 1: We're worried about housing and jobs. But as Annali put it, 261 00:13:27,622 --> 00:13:30,382 Speaker 1: these people are really getting conned by neo Nazis. They're 262 00:13:30,382 --> 00:13:34,622 Speaker 1: being conned into believing that increased migration is a risk 263 00:13:34,702 --> 00:13:37,542 Speaker 1: or of vulnerability instead of an actual opportunity and a 264 00:13:37,542 --> 00:13:40,462 Speaker 1: point of strength for Australians. And Anne Ali said, we 265 00:13:40,542 --> 00:13:43,262 Speaker 1: need to have a more nuanced debate about immigration, but 266 00:13:43,382 --> 00:13:46,142 Speaker 1: these neo Nazis, they're not it. They're not giving us 267 00:13:46,142 --> 00:13:46,662 Speaker 1: that debate. 268 00:13:46,782 --> 00:13:49,582 Speaker 3: It's very much echoing what's happening in Britain as well 269 00:13:49,582 --> 00:13:53,142 Speaker 3: as across lots of parts of Europe where and obviously 270 00:13:53,222 --> 00:13:55,582 Speaker 3: it's complicated. But as you can see in the language 271 00:13:55,622 --> 00:13:58,062 Speaker 3: in that flyer that I was talking about in their intro, 272 00:13:58,342 --> 00:14:01,662 Speaker 3: if you're concerned about culture, wages, traffic, you know what 273 00:14:01,742 --> 00:14:03,982 Speaker 3: I mean This kind of stuff is. It's all playing 274 00:14:04,142 --> 00:14:09,022 Speaker 3: into fears that life's becoming because it is really expensive. 275 00:14:09,622 --> 00:14:11,902 Speaker 3: You know, it's getting harder and harder to as we know, 276 00:14:12,422 --> 00:14:14,782 Speaker 3: you know, have somewhere safe to live, have a stable job, 277 00:14:14,822 --> 00:14:18,222 Speaker 3: all of those things. The escapegoarding here is so obvious though, 278 00:14:18,302 --> 00:14:22,542 Speaker 3: right because also when they talk about immigrants, as beck 279 00:14:22,622 --> 00:14:26,502 Speaker 3: Freedom said in that leaked conversation, they're not really talking 280 00:14:26,542 --> 00:14:30,542 Speaker 3: about immigrants. Still the largest proportion of Australians who were 281 00:14:30,582 --> 00:14:34,582 Speaker 3: not born in Australia from England. They're from England, then 282 00:14:34,622 --> 00:14:36,662 Speaker 3: followed by India, then followed by China, then followed by 283 00:14:36,702 --> 00:14:40,502 Speaker 3: New Zealand. They are not talking about white European immigrants. 284 00:14:40,502 --> 00:14:43,262 Speaker 3: They're not talking about immigrants like me, free past to 285 00:14:43,342 --> 00:14:47,102 Speaker 3: immigrants like me. They're talking about culture. It's a complete 286 00:14:47,342 --> 00:14:47,982 Speaker 3: fur fee. 287 00:14:47,902 --> 00:14:50,022 Speaker 4: And the irony I suppose a difference too to even 288 00:14:50,262 --> 00:14:52,622 Speaker 4: you know, some of the protests in England is that 289 00:14:52,942 --> 00:14:55,382 Speaker 4: we're an entire country, like it's almost too obvious to 290 00:14:55,462 --> 00:14:59,502 Speaker 4: even warrant mentioning, like we're a whole country of immigrants. 291 00:14:59,542 --> 00:15:02,182 Speaker 4: Every single person there, from what I saw with my 292 00:15:02,302 --> 00:15:05,862 Speaker 4: two eyes, was an immigrant because First Nations people didn't 293 00:15:05,902 --> 00:15:09,062 Speaker 4: show up, and so Indigenous Australians they're the ones who 294 00:15:09,102 --> 00:15:11,462 Speaker 4: didn't a great year and they're horrified by this. 295 00:15:11,662 --> 00:15:15,022 Speaker 3: And in fact, in Melbourne, some Indigenous Australians were attacked 296 00:15:15,102 --> 00:15:18,182 Speaker 3: by the protesters, the ones who are at camp sovereignty. 297 00:15:18,302 --> 00:15:20,622 Speaker 1: Let's separate what's new and what's old about this. I 298 00:15:20,662 --> 00:15:23,502 Speaker 1: think that what's not new, what's in fact very old 299 00:15:23,542 --> 00:15:26,422 Speaker 1: about this, is the scapegoating of a particular ethnic or 300 00:15:26,502 --> 00:15:29,462 Speaker 1: racial group for the benefit of villifying them. And in 301 00:15:29,502 --> 00:15:33,862 Speaker 1: this case that group was Indian immigrants to Australia. Of course, 302 00:15:33,942 --> 00:15:36,222 Speaker 1: that scapegoating goes back all the way to the original 303 00:15:36,222 --> 00:15:39,222 Speaker 1: invasion of this country and the displacing of First Nations people. 304 00:15:39,622 --> 00:15:42,422 Speaker 1: And we've seen that all through Australian history and that's 305 00:15:42,462 --> 00:15:45,222 Speaker 1: not new. Now what's new about this? And Holly, I 306 00:15:45,222 --> 00:15:47,582 Speaker 1: think you were getting at this before about beck freedom 307 00:15:48,262 --> 00:15:51,302 Speaker 1: is this idea of the insidious nature of the messaging 308 00:15:51,422 --> 00:15:54,622 Speaker 1: trying to make themselves out as concerned about traffic. Who 309 00:15:54,702 --> 00:15:59,182 Speaker 1: isn't concerned about traffic and China whitewash their Nazi language 310 00:15:59,222 --> 00:16:00,942 Speaker 1: in this kind of influencer guys. 311 00:16:01,542 --> 00:16:05,022 Speaker 4: Also the term remigration. I had never heard that term before, 312 00:16:05,062 --> 00:16:07,182 Speaker 4: and that was on a lot of the materials that 313 00:16:07,182 --> 00:16:11,022 Speaker 4: were distributed. And remigration is an notion linked to far 314 00:16:11,142 --> 00:16:15,662 Speaker 4: right ideology that calls for the mass deportation of non 315 00:16:15,702 --> 00:16:19,982 Speaker 4: European peoples from Western nations. I'd never even heard of 316 00:16:20,022 --> 00:16:22,542 Speaker 4: that before, and again that echoes what's sort of happening 317 00:16:22,582 --> 00:16:26,422 Speaker 4: in the US with ice raids. It's just terrifying, terrifying stuff. 318 00:16:26,942 --> 00:16:29,102 Speaker 3: I want to throw at this point to a voice 319 00:16:29,142 --> 00:16:32,302 Speaker 3: memo from our own Emily Vernon, often time host on 320 00:16:32,862 --> 00:16:36,062 Speaker 3: this podcast with us, because despite all the arguments and 321 00:16:36,102 --> 00:16:39,102 Speaker 3: the nuances about whether this rally was racist or not racist, 322 00:16:39,182 --> 00:16:42,462 Speaker 3: Nazi or not Nazi, there is little doubt on the 323 00:16:42,502 --> 00:16:45,622 Speaker 3: effect it had on non wide Australians who were watching this, 324 00:16:46,222 --> 00:16:48,982 Speaker 3: and perhaps that was its intention. Em who lives in 325 00:16:48,982 --> 00:16:51,462 Speaker 3: the middle of Sydney and said that this demonstration was 326 00:16:51,502 --> 00:16:54,022 Speaker 3: literally on her doorstep, sent us this memo. 327 00:16:54,582 --> 00:16:56,982 Speaker 2: For the first time in my life. I was scared 328 00:16:56,982 --> 00:17:00,382 Speaker 2: to leave my apartment on Sunday. I've been scared for 329 00:17:00,422 --> 00:17:02,942 Speaker 2: a while now living in the city. I knew it 330 00:17:02,982 --> 00:17:05,502 Speaker 2: was likely the protests would take place near my home. 331 00:17:05,622 --> 00:17:06,222 Speaker 5: I was right. 332 00:17:06,942 --> 00:17:10,061 Speaker 2: On Sunday morning, I canceled dinner with a friend, wasn't 333 00:17:10,061 --> 00:17:13,061 Speaker 2: able to buy my weekly groceries, didn't go for my 334 00:17:13,142 --> 00:17:15,782 Speaker 2: daily city girl walk. I couldn't even work up the 335 00:17:15,782 --> 00:17:19,621 Speaker 2: courage to empty my bins. I thought, with the marathon 336 00:17:19,782 --> 00:17:22,502 Speaker 2: taking place in Sydney, no one would show up to 337 00:17:22,542 --> 00:17:25,741 Speaker 2: the protest. It's been reported that at least eight thousand 338 00:17:25,742 --> 00:17:28,662 Speaker 2: people were there. It might not sound like a lot, 339 00:17:28,742 --> 00:17:31,901 Speaker 2: but seeing eight thousand people filled with hatred outside my 340 00:17:31,942 --> 00:17:35,021 Speaker 2: living room window made me freeze on the spot, and 341 00:17:35,101 --> 00:17:36,982 Speaker 2: all I could hope for is that they didn't see 342 00:17:37,022 --> 00:17:39,942 Speaker 2: me as well. I thought the TikTok comments would be right, 343 00:17:40,341 --> 00:17:43,181 Speaker 2: that it was a peaceful protest to slow down immigration. 344 00:17:44,141 --> 00:17:46,902 Speaker 2: My feed is now filled with videos of racist chants 345 00:17:46,942 --> 00:17:49,861 Speaker 2: and deep anger coming from people I've probably walked past, 346 00:17:50,381 --> 00:17:53,421 Speaker 2: smiled at, sat next to it. The movies stood in 347 00:17:53,462 --> 00:17:56,462 Speaker 2: the same train carriage with eight at the same restaurants 348 00:17:56,502 --> 00:17:59,302 Speaker 2: popped up on my dating apps. The lead up to 349 00:17:59,341 --> 00:18:02,622 Speaker 2: these protests had been so mentally draining. I told four 350 00:18:02,661 --> 00:18:05,221 Speaker 2: friends of mine, matter of factly, can you guys believe 351 00:18:05,222 --> 00:18:08,101 Speaker 2: this is actually happening. No one knew what I was 352 00:18:08,141 --> 00:18:11,542 Speaker 2: talking about. No one knew how scared I was. No 353 00:18:11,621 --> 00:18:14,342 Speaker 2: one checked in. I had lunch with a friend who 354 00:18:14,341 --> 00:18:16,581 Speaker 2: had just moved here from the US to day before. 355 00:18:17,381 --> 00:18:20,261 Speaker 2: We were seated outside. The weather was so nice, the 356 00:18:20,302 --> 00:18:23,581 Speaker 2: city was crowded with people traveling here for the marathon. 357 00:18:24,782 --> 00:18:26,901 Speaker 2: As I was watching them all walk past our table, 358 00:18:27,101 --> 00:18:29,702 Speaker 2: my mind went to a dark place. If our lunch 359 00:18:29,742 --> 00:18:32,941 Speaker 2: took place the day after, if I hadn't heard about 360 00:18:32,942 --> 00:18:37,221 Speaker 2: the protest like so many others, what would happen? The 361 00:18:37,262 --> 00:18:39,101 Speaker 2: I only is is that one of us in that 362 00:18:39,222 --> 00:18:43,101 Speaker 2: table actually is an immigrant, but the other one is brown. 363 00:18:46,341 --> 00:18:49,702 Speaker 4: In a moment, the popular fertility test that doctors want 364 00:18:49,742 --> 00:18:56,022 Speaker 4: you to ignore. An article in the Sydney Morning Herald 365 00:18:56,141 --> 00:18:58,982 Speaker 4: over the weekend has blown the whistle on a popular 366 00:18:59,061 --> 00:19:03,661 Speaker 4: fertility test many women are taking to basically plan their lives. 367 00:19:04,502 --> 00:19:07,262 Speaker 4: The AMH test, also known as the egg count or 368 00:19:07,302 --> 00:19:11,502 Speaker 4: a varian reserve test, measures the anti malarian hormone in 369 00:19:11,542 --> 00:19:13,981 Speaker 4: the blood to estimate the number of eggs in a 370 00:19:14,022 --> 00:19:16,462 Speaker 4: woman's ovaries. Have you guys heard of this test? 371 00:19:16,542 --> 00:19:18,622 Speaker 1: Oh? I have so many friends you've taken. Yeah. 372 00:19:18,661 --> 00:19:20,621 Speaker 4: I went and asked. Actually, I think I was in 373 00:19:20,621 --> 00:19:22,981 Speaker 4: my early thirties and I went and asked a doctor 374 00:19:23,022 --> 00:19:23,981 Speaker 4: and just wanted to do it. 375 00:19:24,022 --> 00:19:25,182 Speaker 5: And the doctor just looked at me. 376 00:19:25,141 --> 00:19:27,261 Speaker 4: And said, nah, really, I'm not letting you go and 377 00:19:27,302 --> 00:19:29,861 Speaker 4: take really. Yeah, he said, come back to me in 378 00:19:30,262 --> 00:19:32,542 Speaker 4: you know, a few years if you're still anxious, but 379 00:19:32,982 --> 00:19:36,181 Speaker 4: you're fine until I read this story. The way I 380 00:19:36,262 --> 00:19:39,022 Speaker 4: understood it was, if you've got a high number, you've 381 00:19:39,022 --> 00:19:41,061 Speaker 4: got all the time in the world. Right, you've got 382 00:19:41,222 --> 00:19:44,221 Speaker 4: too many eggs, you can just wait forever. Low number, 383 00:19:44,982 --> 00:19:46,581 Speaker 4: you've got to freeze your eggs, or you should have 384 00:19:46,581 --> 00:19:49,421 Speaker 4: started trying years ago, and it's time to panic. But 385 00:19:49,462 --> 00:19:53,982 Speaker 4: according to the world leading medical journal Fertility and Sterility, 386 00:19:54,061 --> 00:19:58,782 Speaker 4: the test provides false information quote, it is likely driven 387 00:19:58,821 --> 00:20:02,821 Speaker 4: by financial incentives, and they strongly discourage using this test 388 00:20:02,982 --> 00:20:06,581 Speaker 4: to predict a woman's fertility. Australian experts came out in 389 00:20:06,621 --> 00:20:09,221 Speaker 4: this piece and said that women should not be basing 390 00:20:09,262 --> 00:20:12,381 Speaker 4: life long decisions on these tests, and the University of 391 00:20:12,422 --> 00:20:16,742 Speaker 4: Sydney's doctor Tessa Kopp says clinics and online companies co 392 00:20:16,782 --> 00:20:21,341 Speaker 4: opt feminist language using phrases like empower your Fertility to 393 00:20:21,462 --> 00:20:24,302 Speaker 4: market these tests to a lot of women who don't 394 00:20:24,542 --> 00:20:28,502 Speaker 4: need them. In truth, there is no reliable test for 395 00:20:28,581 --> 00:20:31,461 Speaker 4: women's fertility, and there are a number of factors that 396 00:20:31,542 --> 00:20:35,622 Speaker 4: determine someone's ability to conceive, including, of course, her partner 397 00:20:35,861 --> 00:20:40,742 Speaker 4: or her donor. I find the role of feminism or empowerment. 398 00:20:41,101 --> 00:20:44,982 Speaker 4: Interesting here because it feels like women's fertility is becoming 399 00:20:45,222 --> 00:20:48,222 Speaker 4: increasingly politicized. Amelia, have you noticed this? 400 00:20:48,742 --> 00:20:51,502 Speaker 1: Yes, In a word, I was shocked that this test 401 00:20:51,661 --> 00:20:55,701 Speaker 1: that basically has no grounding in anything is being dispensed 402 00:20:55,861 --> 00:20:56,862 Speaker 1: all around the country. 403 00:20:57,101 --> 00:20:59,661 Speaker 4: I know, yeah, I know women. I have a friend 404 00:20:59,861 --> 00:21:02,742 Speaker 4: who is I think just turned forty, and she said 405 00:21:02,782 --> 00:21:03,502 Speaker 4: to me recently, I. 406 00:21:03,462 --> 00:21:05,661 Speaker 5: Got that test. I'm fine, I've got all the time. 407 00:21:05,821 --> 00:21:06,022 Speaker 1: You know. 408 00:21:06,061 --> 00:21:08,862 Speaker 4: I don't know the details of her fertility, but I 409 00:21:08,901 --> 00:21:11,941 Speaker 4: know now that that doesn't paint a full picture for 410 00:21:11,982 --> 00:21:13,901 Speaker 4: a lot of people, and a lot of people use it. 411 00:21:13,942 --> 00:21:16,262 Speaker 4: I think that if you're looking at egg freezing or IVF, 412 00:21:16,302 --> 00:21:18,861 Speaker 4: it can be a little bit helpful, But if you're 413 00:21:19,022 --> 00:21:21,982 Speaker 4: just looking for some reassurance, nah, not it. 414 00:21:22,341 --> 00:21:26,261 Speaker 1: I found this so interesting because obviously people have been 415 00:21:26,302 --> 00:21:29,901 Speaker 1: trying to profit off women's anxiety and insecurities for a long time, 416 00:21:30,302 --> 00:21:33,542 Speaker 1: but right now fertility is really in the spotlight, and 417 00:21:33,581 --> 00:21:36,941 Speaker 1: it's being wielded as an issue in sort of political terms. 418 00:21:37,341 --> 00:21:39,902 Speaker 1: I don't know if you've heard of this term restorative 419 00:21:39,982 --> 00:21:41,542 Speaker 1: reproductive medicine. 420 00:21:41,702 --> 00:21:43,221 Speaker 4: I've heard of it, but I don't know what it means. 421 00:21:43,341 --> 00:21:45,581 Speaker 1: So this is coming out of the US. There's a 422 00:21:45,621 --> 00:21:48,461 Speaker 1: twenty five year old American woman named Emma Waters who 423 00:21:48,542 --> 00:21:51,222 Speaker 1: is leading the charge. Basically, IVF is under attack in 424 00:21:51,262 --> 00:21:53,982 Speaker 1: the US right now in various courts. There are lots 425 00:21:54,022 --> 00:21:56,542 Speaker 1: of religious conservatives who don't agree with it and who 426 00:21:56,581 --> 00:21:57,581 Speaker 1: want to outlaw it. 427 00:21:58,141 --> 00:22:00,101 Speaker 5: So they really liked babies. 428 00:21:59,901 --> 00:22:02,421 Speaker 1: Isn't that funny, Holly? They like babies, but only on 429 00:22:02,462 --> 00:22:06,341 Speaker 1: their terms. And so what there's a big push for 430 00:22:06,502 --> 00:22:08,741 Speaker 1: right now within the Trump White House, led by this 431 00:22:08,782 --> 00:22:11,782 Speaker 1: twenty five year old woman, Emma Waters, is basically to 432 00:22:11,982 --> 00:22:15,262 Speaker 1: reframe the conversation away from IVF. And she said this 433 00:22:15,381 --> 00:22:17,742 Speaker 1: explicitly that this is what she wants to do. Reframe 434 00:22:17,782 --> 00:22:22,782 Speaker 1: it away from IVF towards restorative reproductive medicine, which is 435 00:22:22,782 --> 00:22:26,662 Speaker 1: a so called natural way of addressing what its practitioners 436 00:22:26,702 --> 00:22:29,581 Speaker 1: say are the root causes of infertility. 437 00:22:29,982 --> 00:22:32,222 Speaker 4: Is this a bit of maha? So the make America 438 00:22:32,341 --> 00:22:34,022 Speaker 4: healthy because it's. 439 00:22:33,861 --> 00:22:38,621 Speaker 1: Basically saying like, infertility can be cured by you eating healthier, 440 00:22:38,861 --> 00:22:43,302 Speaker 1: exercising more, charting your menstrual cycles. As if women who 441 00:22:43,341 --> 00:22:45,101 Speaker 1: want to be pregnant and who are trying to be 442 00:22:45,141 --> 00:22:48,901 Speaker 1: pregnant haven't thought about charting their menstrual cycle before, It 443 00:22:48,982 --> 00:22:52,741 Speaker 1: is absurd. So the American College of Gynecologists says that 444 00:22:52,821 --> 00:22:55,221 Speaker 1: this is not a medical term, this idea of restorative 445 00:22:55,222 --> 00:22:58,621 Speaker 1: reproductive medicine, but basically this is what's being sold as 446 00:22:58,661 --> 00:23:02,901 Speaker 1: a replacement for IVF. At the same time, conservatives across 447 00:23:02,901 --> 00:23:05,462 Speaker 1: the world, not just in the US, are also saying 448 00:23:05,581 --> 00:23:07,701 Speaker 1: that young women should give up on the idea of 449 00:23:07,702 --> 00:23:11,061 Speaker 1: a career and just have babies. Just have babies. It's easier, 450 00:23:11,141 --> 00:23:13,061 Speaker 1: You don't have to worry about going to work. 451 00:23:13,861 --> 00:23:16,341 Speaker 3: This is what worries me about. It's interesting, Jesse, that 452 00:23:16,381 --> 00:23:19,661 Speaker 3: you are saying that women around your age will go 453 00:23:19,661 --> 00:23:21,782 Speaker 3: to the doctor and say, I want to find out 454 00:23:21,782 --> 00:23:25,061 Speaker 3: how much time I've got. And what you're saying is 455 00:23:25,101 --> 00:23:27,782 Speaker 3: that you think it shouldn't be used as a false 456 00:23:27,821 --> 00:23:30,621 Speaker 3: sense of security, but it should maybe be used to 457 00:23:30,621 --> 00:23:31,701 Speaker 3: spark you into action. 458 00:23:31,982 --> 00:23:34,381 Speaker 4: More so than that, I'm saying as well that a 459 00:23:34,422 --> 00:23:36,982 Speaker 4: lot of experts are saying this is causing an enormous 460 00:23:36,982 --> 00:23:39,341 Speaker 4: amount of anxiety when a woman is told you don't 461 00:23:39,381 --> 00:23:40,981 Speaker 4: have a lot of eggs, and that doesn't mean you 462 00:23:41,022 --> 00:23:42,502 Speaker 4: can't conceive exactly. 463 00:23:42,581 --> 00:23:46,461 Speaker 3: So it feels to me sometimes like we've pulled the 464 00:23:46,581 --> 00:23:48,581 Speaker 3: lever back a little too. You know how we've said 465 00:23:48,621 --> 00:23:51,581 Speaker 3: for Generation X, we were saying a lot, oh women 466 00:23:51,621 --> 00:23:53,502 Speaker 3: think they've got all the time in the world. You know, 467 00:23:53,542 --> 00:23:56,502 Speaker 3: we need to educate women about their fertility window. And 468 00:23:56,661 --> 00:23:59,022 Speaker 3: I feel that women have been well and truly educated 469 00:23:59,061 --> 00:24:02,341 Speaker 3: about their fertility window, possibly now to a point of 470 00:24:02,422 --> 00:24:05,382 Speaker 3: panic where we know that lots of women in their 471 00:24:05,462 --> 00:24:09,341 Speaker 3: late twenties and early thirties very worried about their fertility, 472 00:24:09,621 --> 00:24:12,061 Speaker 3: maybe for good reason, and also maybe not for good reason. 473 00:24:12,702 --> 00:24:14,941 Speaker 3: And as you've already pointed out, Amelia, the thing that 474 00:24:14,982 --> 00:24:17,222 Speaker 3: worries me is that then there's a whole cohort of 475 00:24:17,222 --> 00:24:19,222 Speaker 3: people who are very happy to capitalize on that, and 476 00:24:19,262 --> 00:24:22,341 Speaker 3: there's an entire industry built around it, much of which 477 00:24:22,502 --> 00:24:25,901 Speaker 3: brings great joy when they fertility treatments are successful and 478 00:24:25,942 --> 00:24:29,182 Speaker 3: babies are born. But also we have no idea really 479 00:24:29,222 --> 00:24:31,701 Speaker 3: how much of that is unnecessary. So whenever there's a 480 00:24:31,742 --> 00:24:35,422 Speaker 3: financial incentive, I'm a little that's a good point I read, 481 00:24:35,861 --> 00:24:40,621 Speaker 3: But also it feels like a culture to where we are. 482 00:24:40,661 --> 00:24:42,542 Speaker 3: And I don't mean I'm not aiming this at women 483 00:24:42,581 --> 00:24:45,502 Speaker 3: who I think. I think we're entirely just responding to 484 00:24:45,542 --> 00:24:47,861 Speaker 3: the messaging that's around us. But there must be a 485 00:24:47,942 --> 00:24:49,461 Speaker 3: test for that, there must be an app for that, 486 00:24:49,502 --> 00:24:51,101 Speaker 3: there must be a fix for that. I must be 487 00:24:51,222 --> 00:24:53,302 Speaker 3: able to get what I want when I want to 488 00:24:53,341 --> 00:24:55,141 Speaker 3: get it. And I know that sounds brutal the way 489 00:24:55,182 --> 00:24:56,782 Speaker 3: I just phrase that, I don't mean it too. 490 00:24:56,821 --> 00:24:58,061 Speaker 5: But what I mean more. 491 00:24:58,661 --> 00:25:00,901 Speaker 3: Is that the idea that all these things are just 492 00:25:00,942 --> 00:25:03,182 Speaker 3: going to be absolutely accurate. We were talking recently about 493 00:25:03,182 --> 00:25:05,742 Speaker 3: how a lot of the period tracking apps that people 494 00:25:05,742 --> 00:25:08,381 Speaker 3: absolutely swear by telling them exactly what phase they're in, 495 00:25:08,422 --> 00:25:10,341 Speaker 3: and all those things just general information. 496 00:25:10,502 --> 00:25:11,181 Speaker 5: It's all under the. 497 00:25:11,262 --> 00:25:14,381 Speaker 1: Umbrella of putting it back onto women that we can 498 00:25:14,502 --> 00:25:17,742 Speaker 1: control everything. Even this idea of don't have a career 499 00:25:17,821 --> 00:25:21,341 Speaker 1: have babies, as though women are ever making that choice. 500 00:25:21,341 --> 00:25:24,141 Speaker 1: In the abstract, life happens to you. Sometimes you have 501 00:25:24,222 --> 00:25:27,222 Speaker 1: a job, sometimes you have a baby. Sometimes you don't 502 00:25:27,222 --> 00:25:29,341 Speaker 1: have a job or a baby, and it's not all 503 00:25:29,381 --> 00:25:31,542 Speaker 1: to do with what you're doing. And it puts so 504 00:25:31,621 --> 00:25:33,982 Speaker 1: much pressure on women to say, well, have you taken 505 00:25:34,022 --> 00:25:36,661 Speaker 1: the test, have you fixed your diet, have you charged 506 00:25:36,661 --> 00:25:37,662 Speaker 1: your menstruals side. 507 00:25:37,502 --> 00:25:39,782 Speaker 4: Have you throwzen your eggs, And isn't it interesting that 508 00:25:39,821 --> 00:25:42,502 Speaker 4: it's all on women, one hundred percent on women. And 509 00:25:42,542 --> 00:25:45,341 Speaker 4: I think that the AMH test, which by the way, 510 00:25:45,581 --> 00:25:47,861 Speaker 4: is not covered by Medicare, so women are out of 511 00:25:47,901 --> 00:25:52,022 Speaker 4: pocket paying for this, and often it's used kind of 512 00:25:52,262 --> 00:25:54,422 Speaker 4: as a test that you would do to then go 513 00:25:54,621 --> 00:25:56,422 Speaker 4: should I freeze my eggs? And I think it's worth 514 00:25:56,462 --> 00:25:59,621 Speaker 4: mentioning that egg freezing. While it offers freedom to a 515 00:25:59,661 --> 00:26:03,061 Speaker 4: lot of women, it's also especially in the US. I mean, 516 00:26:03,101 --> 00:26:05,461 Speaker 4: it's a multi billion dollar business that is set to 517 00:26:05,502 --> 00:26:08,941 Speaker 4: triple by twenty thirty. People are making a lot of 518 00:26:08,942 --> 00:26:11,621 Speaker 4: money off it, and all of this research has now 519 00:26:11,661 --> 00:26:14,262 Speaker 4: come out that said freezing your eggs does not guarantee 520 00:26:14,262 --> 00:26:16,181 Speaker 4: you a baby. So on the one hand, you have that, 521 00:26:16,381 --> 00:26:21,022 Speaker 4: you have what feels like the exploitation of certain industries 522 00:26:21,381 --> 00:26:24,181 Speaker 4: on women's anxieties and the pressure that they feel, and 523 00:26:24,222 --> 00:26:27,061 Speaker 4: on pseudoscience, and yes, well then you have this kind 524 00:26:27,101 --> 00:26:30,861 Speaker 4: of backlash that I'm seeing. I'm seeing this all over 525 00:26:30,901 --> 00:26:34,542 Speaker 4: my feeds, a real backlash towards even things like IVF, 526 00:26:35,022 --> 00:26:38,941 Speaker 4: which I think is so distressing and hurtful to the 527 00:26:39,742 --> 00:26:42,382 Speaker 4: many women I know who have had babies via IVF 528 00:26:43,022 --> 00:26:45,701 Speaker 4: as though that is a lesser choice, as though it 529 00:26:45,742 --> 00:26:48,182 Speaker 4: wasn't necessary if they had just eaten more vegetables. 530 00:26:48,222 --> 00:26:50,141 Speaker 1: Like yeah, as though it is a choice between eating 531 00:26:50,222 --> 00:26:51,982 Speaker 1: vegetables or doing IVF. 532 00:26:51,661 --> 00:26:54,422 Speaker 4: As if they don't like I have never known anyone 533 00:26:54,782 --> 00:26:59,542 Speaker 4: to try harder to make every lifestyle change for twelve months, 534 00:26:59,542 --> 00:27:01,782 Speaker 4: all of the things that you do before you get 535 00:27:01,821 --> 00:27:07,101 Speaker 4: to that decision. I just find like I'm actually overused word, 536 00:27:07,141 --> 00:27:09,421 Speaker 4: but triggered by a lot of these things that pop up. 537 00:27:09,742 --> 00:27:11,821 Speaker 4: I go, well, I'm glad you had the privilege of 538 00:27:11,821 --> 00:27:14,341 Speaker 4: getting pregnant in two months, but it probably had less 539 00:27:14,341 --> 00:27:17,381 Speaker 4: to do with your diet and more to do with a. 540 00:27:17,341 --> 00:27:17,861 Speaker 2: Bit of luck. 541 00:27:19,381 --> 00:27:21,861 Speaker 3: Friends, people are getting their la boo boos baptized, and 542 00:27:21,982 --> 00:27:23,621 Speaker 3: I really need to go back to bed. 543 00:27:24,901 --> 00:27:27,501 Speaker 5: We're all across what a laboo boo is, right, Yeah? 544 00:27:27,581 --> 00:27:28,621 Speaker 5: I saw one this morning. 545 00:27:28,821 --> 00:27:30,381 Speaker 3: I mean I see them often, but I saw one 546 00:27:30,422 --> 00:27:32,742 Speaker 3: this morning on a grown man's backpack on the train, 547 00:27:33,141 --> 00:27:35,102 Speaker 3: and I had to work really hard not to judge him. 548 00:27:35,141 --> 00:27:38,022 Speaker 3: And if he's listening, I'm really sorry you go hard 549 00:27:38,061 --> 00:27:38,342 Speaker 3: with your. 550 00:27:38,302 --> 00:27:40,302 Speaker 5: La boo boo. I provide a lot of comfort to 551 00:27:40,341 --> 00:27:41,181 Speaker 5: a lot of people. 552 00:27:40,982 --> 00:27:43,821 Speaker 4: Holly Rackon. That's the premisphere nex novel. It starts with 553 00:27:43,861 --> 00:27:46,821 Speaker 4: a man with a labubu on his bag. How did 554 00:27:46,821 --> 00:27:47,342 Speaker 4: we get here? 555 00:27:47,462 --> 00:27:50,622 Speaker 5: I was like, what's your story? Sit down and tell 556 00:27:50,661 --> 00:27:51,262 Speaker 5: me about that. 557 00:27:51,821 --> 00:27:54,182 Speaker 3: I generally think of la booboos as either hanging off 558 00:27:54,182 --> 00:27:57,942 Speaker 3: school bags or very fancy handbags. It's like those two things, right, 559 00:27:58,182 --> 00:27:59,781 Speaker 3: if you're not across what a lab boo boo is. 560 00:28:00,061 --> 00:28:02,901 Speaker 3: They are these ugly little fluffy dolly things and you 561 00:28:02,942 --> 00:28:04,621 Speaker 3: buy them in a blind box. Part of the whole 562 00:28:04,661 --> 00:28:06,982 Speaker 3: fun and gamification of it is that you never know 563 00:28:07,061 --> 00:28:08,982 Speaker 3: which one you're gonna get, and there's a limited edition 564 00:28:09,061 --> 00:28:10,542 Speaker 3: and they really new ones all the time. 565 00:28:10,422 --> 00:28:12,422 Speaker 5: And it's really exciting anyway. 566 00:28:12,821 --> 00:28:15,262 Speaker 3: As well as being a blight of late stage capitalism 567 00:28:15,262 --> 00:28:18,061 Speaker 3: and a mountain of landfill waiting to happen, that cute 568 00:28:18,061 --> 00:28:21,302 Speaker 3: little fluffy doll on that man's backpack is also demonic. 569 00:28:22,141 --> 00:28:25,901 Speaker 3: I just tell you what you seen that it might 570 00:28:26,022 --> 00:28:29,821 Speaker 3: be cursed. Yes, there's a viral theory going around that 571 00:28:29,861 --> 00:28:35,502 Speaker 3: they might actually be demons inspired by a demon called 572 00:28:35,542 --> 00:28:37,061 Speaker 3: I just need to make sure I get my facts 573 00:28:37,061 --> 00:28:40,702 Speaker 3: straight here. This is a very fact heavy segment. Pazuzu 574 00:28:40,982 --> 00:28:43,342 Speaker 3: a demon from Mesopotanium. 575 00:28:43,661 --> 00:28:44,862 Speaker 5: I'm so sorry. 576 00:28:44,582 --> 00:28:47,102 Speaker 4: Everybody Mesopotamian mythology. 577 00:28:47,302 --> 00:28:52,462 Speaker 3: Right, So people are getting priests, presumably really bored priests, 578 00:28:52,942 --> 00:28:56,302 Speaker 3: to baptize their laboo boos, or they're hosting their own 579 00:28:56,462 --> 00:29:00,702 Speaker 3: DIY ceremonies, tying them up and squirting them with holy water. 580 00:29:00,942 --> 00:29:04,941 Speaker 3: For example, I'm filming it for TikTok. But don't worry, 581 00:29:05,022 --> 00:29:07,941 Speaker 3: because I know you were worried. The people who created 582 00:29:08,022 --> 00:29:10,382 Speaker 3: labooboos say they have nothing to do with pazuzu. 583 00:29:10,502 --> 00:29:11,661 Speaker 5: I know this is confusing. 584 00:29:11,742 --> 00:29:16,382 Speaker 4: By the stage, friends, have nothing to do withs, have 585 00:29:16,462 --> 00:29:17,742 Speaker 4: nothing to do with bazuzu. 586 00:29:18,622 --> 00:29:24,262 Speaker 3: They were actually invented by a guy called Kazing Long 587 00:29:24,582 --> 00:29:27,142 Speaker 3: created a Labooboos as part of his Monster's book series, 588 00:29:27,182 --> 00:29:32,022 Speaker 3: and they're actually inspired by Nordic folklore. Oh, feeling better 589 00:29:32,062 --> 00:29:34,222 Speaker 3: about our demonic little friends, Jesse. 590 00:29:34,222 --> 00:29:36,261 Speaker 4: I have a question for the table. Am I the 591 00:29:36,262 --> 00:29:37,941 Speaker 4: only one here who's been baptized? 592 00:29:38,262 --> 00:29:38,422 Speaker 1: Yes? 593 00:29:38,782 --> 00:29:39,902 Speaker 5: Yes, Oh? 594 00:29:40,582 --> 00:29:47,302 Speaker 4: I feel appropriate as someone who has had my original sin. 595 00:29:47,422 --> 00:29:48,782 Speaker 5: I thought you were going to tie me down and 596 00:29:48,782 --> 00:29:51,421 Speaker 5: squirt me. I brought some holy water with me. 597 00:29:51,942 --> 00:29:55,102 Speaker 4: No, I was born with my original sin, and then 598 00:29:55,142 --> 00:29:57,782 Speaker 4: I was clear of it. And things have been absolutely 599 00:29:57,782 --> 00:30:01,062 Speaker 4: great ever since. Baptism is not to be used to 600 00:30:01,102 --> 00:30:03,062 Speaker 4: expel the demon from your teddy bear. That is not 601 00:30:03,062 --> 00:30:05,382 Speaker 4: what they teach in the Catholic Church. Although I do 602 00:30:05,502 --> 00:30:08,701 Speaker 4: remember being a kid and baptizing teddy bears like it 603 00:30:08,822 --> 00:30:10,701 Speaker 4: was a real yeah yeah, because it was just a 604 00:30:10,702 --> 00:30:13,102 Speaker 4: bit of a ritual and you had your little plate 605 00:30:13,222 --> 00:30:14,782 Speaker 4: and you'd put the head in it. 606 00:30:15,102 --> 00:30:17,862 Speaker 3: So Catholic, I guess it's like an extension of playing 607 00:30:17,862 --> 00:30:18,462 Speaker 3: with baby doll. 608 00:30:18,542 --> 00:30:20,902 Speaker 5: Right next this baby doll gets head. 609 00:30:21,302 --> 00:30:24,142 Speaker 4: But what I will say is that all respect priests 610 00:30:24,422 --> 00:30:27,142 Speaker 4: went to church a lot as a kid. Their workload 611 00:30:28,102 --> 00:30:32,142 Speaker 4: has declined in some parishes because you know, my nan 612 00:30:32,342 --> 00:30:34,342 Speaker 4: used to go all the time. My nan isn't around anymore. 613 00:30:34,382 --> 00:30:37,582 Speaker 1: So I just wonder if that's extra busy and conclave 614 00:30:37,742 --> 00:30:41,622 Speaker 1: have you seen true? 615 00:30:41,622 --> 00:30:44,181 Speaker 4: But they're the kind of they're the big bosses. I 616 00:30:44,222 --> 00:30:46,542 Speaker 4: feel like, there's your local parish priest. 617 00:30:46,462 --> 00:30:48,382 Speaker 1: Who's sort of doing community outreach. 618 00:30:48,542 --> 00:30:51,382 Speaker 4: Yeah, and he's like make him cool, Oh, baptize your labooba. 619 00:30:51,542 --> 00:30:55,342 Speaker 3: You think that's some really fancy, top level, very rich 620 00:30:55,382 --> 00:30:59,501 Speaker 3: influencer types of trying to get the pope to soxicize 621 00:30:59,542 --> 00:31:01,262 Speaker 3: the las with holy water. 622 00:31:01,342 --> 00:31:04,102 Speaker 5: Oh my god, could you imagine the requests? It just 623 00:31:04,182 --> 00:31:09,421 Speaker 5: be like, no, no, busy after the break? 624 00:31:09,862 --> 00:31:13,582 Speaker 1: Why are celebrities lying to us about being in love? 625 00:31:13,702 --> 00:31:16,182 Speaker 1: I have feelings about this one. 626 00:31:16,302 --> 00:31:17,742 Speaker 5: Unlimited out Loud access. 627 00:31:17,902 --> 00:31:21,942 Speaker 3: We drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Mamma 628 00:31:21,982 --> 00:31:22,942 Speaker 3: Mia subscribers. 629 00:31:23,262 --> 00:31:24,782 Speaker 5: Follow the link in the show notes. 630 00:31:24,582 --> 00:31:26,862 Speaker 3: To get us in your ears five days a week. 631 00:31:27,102 --> 00:31:30,822 Speaker 3: And a huge thank you to all our current subscribers. 632 00:31:36,262 --> 00:31:38,622 Speaker 1: I just had this natural chemistry and we had a 633 00:31:38,661 --> 00:31:40,062 Speaker 1: great script and a great director. 634 00:31:40,222 --> 00:31:43,342 Speaker 6: Number booth silly, Yeah, we discovered a silly bonne on 635 00:31:43,382 --> 00:31:43,701 Speaker 6: each other. 636 00:31:43,742 --> 00:31:46,181 Speaker 1: Mary. It's well, it's obvious, it comes through on the screen. 637 00:31:46,262 --> 00:31:50,862 Speaker 1: Are you too an idol? Craig and the question. 638 00:31:52,942 --> 00:31:55,782 Speaker 6: We met I had never met Palma before I heard 639 00:31:56,382 --> 00:31:59,461 Speaker 6: we met, on said, and we discovered we had a 640 00:31:59,542 --> 00:32:05,062 Speaker 6: lovely budding chemistry, a connection as two actors. I'm just like, oh, 641 00:32:05,262 --> 00:32:08,142 Speaker 6: this is nice. What's the silliest thing you've seen me? 642 00:32:08,222 --> 00:32:08,302 Speaker 4: Do? 643 00:32:11,462 --> 00:32:13,702 Speaker 1: I don't enough that's legal to talk about. 644 00:32:14,542 --> 00:32:17,262 Speaker 3: That was making bread for him all the time, and 645 00:32:17,462 --> 00:32:19,302 Speaker 3: muffins and cookies. 646 00:32:19,382 --> 00:32:22,222 Speaker 2: And we really bonded, We really fell madly in love 647 00:32:22,262 --> 00:32:22,782 Speaker 2: on the set. 648 00:32:22,862 --> 00:32:25,421 Speaker 4: I'm remarkably annoyed it was all a lie. 649 00:32:25,702 --> 00:32:28,181 Speaker 1: Two things happened on the weekend. The first was that 650 00:32:28,222 --> 00:32:30,502 Speaker 1: we thought Donald Trump had died briefly he had not. 651 00:32:31,062 --> 00:32:33,862 Speaker 1: The second thing that happened is that TMZ broke the 652 00:32:33,902 --> 00:32:37,102 Speaker 1: news that Pamela Anderson and Liam Neeson are not in 653 00:32:37,142 --> 00:32:40,862 Speaker 1: fact in love as then Acred Gun movie they start 654 00:32:40,902 --> 00:32:44,941 Speaker 1: in starts to leave cinemas. Sources told TMZ that Liam 655 00:32:44,982 --> 00:32:48,662 Speaker 1: and pam have never even had dinner together, at least 656 00:32:48,661 --> 00:32:52,742 Speaker 1: not without their assistance. Apparently they didn't see each other 657 00:32:52,782 --> 00:32:55,302 Speaker 1: for a year after filming of the movie was over, 658 00:32:55,702 --> 00:32:58,822 Speaker 1: and they only reunited for the Red carpet. Now, I 659 00:32:58,862 --> 00:33:01,461 Speaker 1: know what Jase's going to say here. They're actors. I 660 00:33:01,462 --> 00:33:03,422 Speaker 1: should never have been sucked in by the whole thing. 661 00:33:03,661 --> 00:33:06,221 Speaker 1: This has happened lots of times before. Think of Sydney 662 00:33:06,222 --> 00:33:08,181 Speaker 1: Swingy and Glen Powell. I'm sorry. 663 00:33:08,222 --> 00:33:10,542 Speaker 4: I still feel really duped by this. 664 00:33:10,661 --> 00:33:13,342 Speaker 1: I feel conned, and I want to talk to you 665 00:33:13,422 --> 00:33:16,582 Speaker 1: about why this felt different and why it's not okay 666 00:33:16,582 --> 00:33:17,181 Speaker 1: for them to do this. 667 00:33:17,382 --> 00:33:19,302 Speaker 3: To lay it out, Amelia, this is a safe space. 668 00:33:19,502 --> 00:33:20,661 Speaker 3: You tell us how you feel. 669 00:33:20,902 --> 00:33:24,182 Speaker 1: There was something about the two older people finding each other, 670 00:33:24,382 --> 00:33:28,262 Speaker 1: especially after adversity and heartbreak. Think about the fact that 671 00:33:28,342 --> 00:33:31,302 Speaker 1: Jolie Richardson, who was the sister of Liam Neeson's deceased 672 00:33:31,302 --> 00:33:36,102 Speaker 1: wife Natasha. She even posted heart emojis on Instagram photo 673 00:33:36,142 --> 00:33:37,502 Speaker 1: that Pam posted of the. 674 00:33:37,462 --> 00:33:37,982 Speaker 5: Two of them. 675 00:33:38,702 --> 00:33:41,502 Speaker 1: The two also had ample opportunities to tell us that 676 00:33:41,542 --> 00:33:44,262 Speaker 1: they were not, in facted. I am starting to doubt 677 00:33:44,262 --> 00:33:47,981 Speaker 1: whether Liam has even tried Pam's sour doughs at this 678 00:33:48,062 --> 00:33:52,142 Speaker 1: point concern. So the real question I want to ask 679 00:33:52,182 --> 00:33:55,662 Speaker 1: you too, though, is isn't there a difference between leaning 680 00:33:55,702 --> 00:33:58,982 Speaker 1: into something and directly misleading the public? 681 00:33:59,222 --> 00:34:01,822 Speaker 4: Yeah, and that is exactly what they did. I at 682 00:34:01,862 --> 00:34:03,941 Speaker 4: the time refuse to care about this story because I 683 00:34:04,022 --> 00:34:07,022 Speaker 4: just went, Nana, Na, you're pulling my leg. I reckon 684 00:34:07,022 --> 00:34:08,302 Speaker 4: that this is going to become. 685 00:34:08,142 --> 00:34:09,862 Speaker 1: That's because you have a master's degree. 686 00:34:09,702 --> 00:34:12,302 Speaker 4: Exactly right, and I know how to analyze things. I'm like, 687 00:34:12,302 --> 00:34:13,502 Speaker 4: Holly over here fell for it. 688 00:34:13,942 --> 00:34:17,102 Speaker 5: I was going to say, I never fell for it. Anyway, 689 00:34:17,342 --> 00:34:18,022 Speaker 5: We'll get to that. 690 00:34:18,181 --> 00:34:21,102 Speaker 4: I feel as though it's like the boy who Cried Romance, 691 00:34:21,261 --> 00:34:24,301 Speaker 4: and that this happens so many times that we as 692 00:34:24,302 --> 00:34:27,341 Speaker 4: a culture are going to go unless you are having 693 00:34:27,781 --> 00:34:30,701 Speaker 4: sexual intercourse on the red carpet in front of me, 694 00:34:31,382 --> 00:34:34,582 Speaker 4: unless you have four children and a holiday. 695 00:34:34,181 --> 00:34:38,821 Speaker 1: House, then I'm not buying. 696 00:34:40,701 --> 00:34:41,221 Speaker 6: They're real. 697 00:34:43,422 --> 00:34:45,941 Speaker 4: I'm just not buying it anymore because it is now 698 00:34:46,102 --> 00:34:49,502 Speaker 4: part and parcel of any campaign to get you to 699 00:34:49,502 --> 00:34:51,981 Speaker 4: watch the movie. I saw this recently with it didn't 700 00:34:51,982 --> 00:34:55,102 Speaker 4: even make headlines because it's just like another day in 701 00:34:55,382 --> 00:34:58,862 Speaker 4: tabloid media. But Jessica Alba and Orlando Bloom are making 702 00:34:58,902 --> 00:35:02,022 Speaker 4: some movie called The Mark that no one's going to terrible. 703 00:35:02,062 --> 00:35:03,422 Speaker 5: Doesn't it sound terrible already? 704 00:35:03,622 --> 00:35:06,902 Speaker 4: Why do I know? Why do I know what it's called? Well, 705 00:35:07,022 --> 00:35:11,102 Speaker 4: because there are rumors from an insider that they've started 706 00:35:11,302 --> 00:35:13,862 Speaker 4: seeing each other on the set, confirmed by no one. 707 00:35:13,902 --> 00:35:15,662 Speaker 5: I want to be an inside a sword. 708 00:35:16,022 --> 00:35:19,102 Speaker 1: I just want to be calling TMZ saying commune inside. 709 00:35:19,102 --> 00:35:21,901 Speaker 3: They need to come to Liam and Pammy's defense. I'm 710 00:35:21,902 --> 00:35:25,181 Speaker 3: coming in hard for Liam and Pame's defense. They did not, 711 00:35:25,582 --> 00:35:28,742 Speaker 3: absolutely did not. So if you all of those grabs 712 00:35:28,741 --> 00:35:31,262 Speaker 3: that you heard at the beginning of this, never did they. 713 00:35:31,102 --> 00:35:33,822 Speaker 4: Say they were and I they were every single time. 714 00:35:33,661 --> 00:35:34,142 Speaker 5: They were asked. 715 00:35:34,181 --> 00:35:36,741 Speaker 3: It was like we fell madly in love on thee 716 00:35:37,022 --> 00:35:40,422 Speaker 3: with each other's acting like he's so silly and amazing 717 00:35:40,462 --> 00:35:40,982 Speaker 3: when we're. 718 00:35:40,862 --> 00:35:41,822 Speaker 5: On the set together. 719 00:35:43,661 --> 00:35:47,422 Speaker 3: And here's the clue, right, when people are really in 720 00:35:47,462 --> 00:35:51,622 Speaker 3: a relationship, famous people, they do everything to not be sprung. 721 00:35:51,942 --> 00:35:54,341 Speaker 3: They are not filmed making out on the set of 722 00:35:54,382 --> 00:35:56,542 Speaker 3: the Today Show, which is exactly what happened with Pammy 723 00:35:56,582 --> 00:36:00,622 Speaker 3: and tom They said, Pamy and Tommy, then Pammy and Liam. 724 00:36:00,862 --> 00:36:03,142 Speaker 3: They literally had one of those moments where they looked 725 00:36:03,142 --> 00:36:04,821 Speaker 3: like they were making out and the camera sprung them, 726 00:36:04,822 --> 00:36:07,582 Speaker 3: clearly a gag. You also take into consideration the movie 727 00:36:07,582 --> 00:36:10,381 Speaker 3: they're promoting, which was a farce, a silly fast right, 728 00:36:10,822 --> 00:36:14,102 Speaker 3: full of like nineteen eighties inappropriate kind of jokes. This 729 00:36:14,302 --> 00:36:17,142 Speaker 3: was always clearly a showmance. The fact that we all 730 00:36:17,181 --> 00:36:19,381 Speaker 3: fell for it says a lot about us, which is 731 00:36:19,382 --> 00:36:21,701 Speaker 3: that we are just desperate, as you said, Amelia, we 732 00:36:21,741 --> 00:36:24,181 Speaker 3: want happy endings for both these people, and we are 733 00:36:24,221 --> 00:36:25,942 Speaker 3: also desperate for good news and distraction. 734 00:36:26,181 --> 00:36:29,022 Speaker 1: Isn't there something kind of new and crossing the line 735 00:36:29,142 --> 00:36:30,341 Speaker 1: about what happened here? 736 00:36:30,741 --> 00:36:32,582 Speaker 5: I mean, I think it feels great. 737 00:36:32,781 --> 00:36:36,142 Speaker 3: I don't think so, because I entirely understand it. Right, 738 00:36:36,781 --> 00:36:40,662 Speaker 3: they're promoting a movie Naked Guns sequel, blah blah reboot, 739 00:36:40,661 --> 00:36:42,982 Speaker 3: which it's famously the case at the moment that the 740 00:36:43,022 --> 00:36:45,502 Speaker 3: only movies that make it in theater is either made 741 00:36:45,542 --> 00:36:48,902 Speaker 3: from existing ip like this one, or they're a superhero franchise. 742 00:36:49,342 --> 00:36:51,661 Speaker 3: Theatrical market is shrinking, shrinking, shrinking. 743 00:36:51,781 --> 00:36:52,941 Speaker 5: They are in. 744 00:36:52,661 --> 00:36:56,341 Speaker 3: A tooth and nail fight for attention and eyeballs. We 745 00:36:56,382 --> 00:36:58,821 Speaker 3: would never have even heard about this movie, really if 746 00:36:58,862 --> 00:37:01,341 Speaker 3: they hadn't been so charming together on the press tour. 747 00:37:01,502 --> 00:37:03,582 Speaker 3: So it makes absolute sense. 748 00:37:03,661 --> 00:37:04,341 Speaker 5: It is not. 749 00:37:04,462 --> 00:37:07,542 Speaker 3: New, as you've already said, Amelia, but remember Lady Gargo 750 00:37:07,582 --> 00:37:11,942 Speaker 3: and Bradley Cooper. Gargar admitted that was entirely deliberately orchestrated. 751 00:37:12,181 --> 00:37:15,342 Speaker 3: Let's keep them guessing. Let's gaze at each other lovingly. 752 00:37:15,902 --> 00:37:19,102 Speaker 3: Let's sometimes be seen to be giggling off camera. It's 753 00:37:19,181 --> 00:37:20,542 Speaker 3: really interesting. 754 00:37:20,102 --> 00:37:21,622 Speaker 5: Because the way is far too old for him. 755 00:37:22,181 --> 00:37:24,542 Speaker 3: Well, it's true he only dates supermodels in their twenties, 756 00:37:24,582 --> 00:37:26,821 Speaker 3: but we all felt for that because we wanted it 757 00:37:26,862 --> 00:37:29,301 Speaker 3: to be true, because the chemistry was so good. They're 758 00:37:29,342 --> 00:37:32,462 Speaker 3: trying to sell a movie, and it's getting harder and 759 00:37:32,502 --> 00:37:34,902 Speaker 3: harder to sell a movie. Nobody's going to show clips 760 00:37:34,902 --> 00:37:36,942 Speaker 3: on TikTok of you just sitting there going well, the 761 00:37:37,062 --> 00:37:39,261 Speaker 3: material was really interesting and I thought it was great 762 00:37:39,261 --> 00:37:41,301 Speaker 3: when the director told me to move my hand over it. No, 763 00:37:41,582 --> 00:37:43,462 Speaker 3: they don't give a shit about that. They want to 764 00:37:43,502 --> 00:37:46,542 Speaker 3: know if he's eating pammy sourdough literally and figuratively. 765 00:37:46,661 --> 00:37:49,622 Speaker 1: Holly talk about going over the line. 766 00:37:49,862 --> 00:37:51,862 Speaker 4: But this didn't happen in the nineties. 767 00:37:51,982 --> 00:37:54,301 Speaker 1: Is the point? Like, for instance, you know Brad Pitt 768 00:37:54,342 --> 00:37:56,742 Speaker 1: and Juliet Lewis fell in love on a movie like People, 769 00:37:56,822 --> 00:37:57,382 Speaker 1: Tom Phaps. 770 00:37:59,181 --> 00:38:00,021 Speaker 4: People used to. 771 00:38:00,022 --> 00:38:01,862 Speaker 1: Actually fall in love during movie. 772 00:38:01,862 --> 00:38:02,421 Speaker 5: This is the thing. 773 00:38:02,502 --> 00:38:05,261 Speaker 3: Actors actually do fall in love during movies, right, And 774 00:38:05,422 --> 00:38:09,021 Speaker 3: us civilians we don't really understand how you could pash 775 00:38:09,102 --> 00:38:11,142 Speaker 3: someone for three months solid and then go home to 776 00:38:11,181 --> 00:38:13,222 Speaker 3: your husband, do we Like, we find that a bit weird, 777 00:38:13,622 --> 00:38:16,062 Speaker 3: but they know how to do it. But also sometimes 778 00:38:16,062 --> 00:38:17,822 Speaker 3: it spreads into real life chemistry. 779 00:38:17,822 --> 00:38:20,901 Speaker 4: For sure, it's being dialed up. Something is changing, and 780 00:38:20,942 --> 00:38:23,622 Speaker 4: it's that you need to make more content post film 781 00:38:23,982 --> 00:38:24,982 Speaker 4: than for film. 782 00:38:25,221 --> 00:38:26,741 Speaker 5: And because they're really hard to sell. 783 00:38:26,781 --> 00:38:28,701 Speaker 4: They're really hard to sell. And so if we watch 784 00:38:28,982 --> 00:38:33,261 Speaker 4: Liam and Pamela, then what we look at is we 785 00:38:33,342 --> 00:38:35,622 Speaker 4: go I could watch two hours of that chemistry. I'm 786 00:38:35,622 --> 00:38:38,062 Speaker 4: being sold this chemistry and I'm gonna watch it and 787 00:38:38,102 --> 00:38:41,262 Speaker 4: try and decipher whether it's real or not. But another 788 00:38:41,342 --> 00:38:44,022 Speaker 4: example of this was the Wicked Press Tour that, to me, 789 00:38:44,302 --> 00:38:47,181 Speaker 4: every time I saw a new interview or statement or 790 00:38:47,181 --> 00:38:50,142 Speaker 4: red carpet, they were acting. There was an element of acting, 791 00:38:50,221 --> 00:38:55,502 Speaker 4: there was an earnestness and the fingernail hold. It was perfect. 792 00:38:55,781 --> 00:38:59,622 Speaker 4: It was absolutely perfect because they couldn't orchestrate a romance 793 00:38:59,661 --> 00:39:02,502 Speaker 4: because actually that was quite controversial because of Ariana and 794 00:39:02,781 --> 00:39:05,902 Speaker 4: ending her marriage. But those two knew they had a 795 00:39:05,982 --> 00:39:08,382 Speaker 4: job to do that was just as hard as the movie, 796 00:39:08,462 --> 00:39:10,262 Speaker 4: and they went, we are going to make make viral 797 00:39:10,302 --> 00:39:12,741 Speaker 4: content out of this, and we all fell for it. 798 00:39:12,781 --> 00:39:14,301 Speaker 4: I'm interested to see what they're going to do for 799 00:39:14,342 --> 00:39:17,142 Speaker 4: the next Wicked Press tour because they need a news story. 800 00:39:17,181 --> 00:39:19,261 Speaker 3: They do, and I think that this just shows you 801 00:39:19,422 --> 00:39:22,261 Speaker 3: how hungry we all are. The way the spot if 802 00:39:22,261 --> 00:39:25,181 Speaker 3: a romance is real is are they trying to hide it? 803 00:39:25,822 --> 00:39:28,422 Speaker 3: That is when it is real. Like Angelina Jolie and 804 00:39:28,422 --> 00:39:30,462 Speaker 3: Brad Pitt back in the day, until they were ready 805 00:39:30,902 --> 00:39:32,781 Speaker 3: to do their pap shot on the beach with the kid, 806 00:39:32,902 --> 00:39:34,462 Speaker 3: they were like, what noth interesting here. 807 00:39:34,582 --> 00:39:34,981 Speaker 5: No wait. 808 00:39:35,622 --> 00:39:37,942 Speaker 3: Also, what we've seen recently and last week I watched 809 00:39:37,942 --> 00:39:40,982 Speaker 3: a lot of this on my feeds is Zoe Kravitz 810 00:39:40,982 --> 00:39:44,342 Speaker 3: and Austin Butler, two of the most attractive human beings. 811 00:39:44,661 --> 00:39:48,222 Speaker 3: The chemistry is off the charts. Everybody's going they're dating. 812 00:39:48,261 --> 00:39:50,022 Speaker 3: They're just really good actors. And now I want to 813 00:39:50,022 --> 00:39:52,022 Speaker 3: see the film. To your point, because I'm like watching 814 00:39:52,062 --> 00:39:53,341 Speaker 3: these two do this, I could do. 815 00:39:53,302 --> 00:39:53,781 Speaker 5: That all day. 816 00:39:53,902 --> 00:39:55,701 Speaker 1: She's actually dating her exactly. 817 00:39:56,022 --> 00:40:01,142 Speaker 5: It was a classic misdirect out loud as a massive. 818 00:40:00,862 --> 00:40:03,142 Speaker 3: Thank you for being here with us on Monday, and 819 00:40:03,181 --> 00:40:05,502 Speaker 3: thank you to our fabulous team for putting our show together. 820 00:40:05,542 --> 00:40:07,181 Speaker 5: We're going to be back in your ears tomorrow. 821 00:40:07,622 --> 00:40:12,782 Speaker 4: Goodbye bye. Shout out to any Muma Mea subscribers listening. 822 00:40:13,022 --> 00:40:15,181 Speaker 4: If you love the show and you want to support us, 823 00:40:15,422 --> 00:40:18,341 Speaker 4: subscribing to Mumma Mia is the very best way to 824 00:40:18,382 --> 00:40:20,822 Speaker 4: do so. 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