WEBVTT - We're Fighting About Being Ugly 

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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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<v Speaker 2>that this podcast is recorded on. What are we talking about?

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<v Speaker 2>We're talking about cajeggs, free range eggs, organic eggs, regular

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<v Speaker 2>or large? Are we talking about brain fed eggs, barnlaid

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<v Speaker 2>vegetarian eggs, hormone free eggs? What about omega and rich

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<v Speaker 2>This is a very hard question.

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<v Speaker 1>Are we talking about Cadbury cream eggs? Yes, because I

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<v Speaker 1>know how much they cost. I can't believe how much that.

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<v Speaker 3>Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia out loud.

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<v Speaker 2>It's what women are actually talking about. On Monday, the

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<v Speaker 2>twenty eighth of April, I'm Holly Wainwright and we are

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<v Speaker 2>revving up for a big week. We were just talking

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<v Speaker 2>about Jesse Sweat Patches.

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<v Speaker 1>On the road again. We're getting on the road. We'll

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<v Speaker 1>be in Perth in just a couple of days for

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<v Speaker 1>the first night of our tour.

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<v Speaker 4>Our live tour proportion is maya between how much you

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<v Speaker 4>have thought talked about contributed to cost student's outfits on

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<v Speaker 4>stage and how much you've actually thought about the content.

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<v Speaker 1>I've been working on our outfits for weeks but it

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<v Speaker 1>was only just a couple of days ago that I

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<v Speaker 1>was like, I probably should look at the script. Yes, yes,

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<v Speaker 1>and I had no idea what we were doing in

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<v Speaker 1>the show.

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<v Speaker 2>She also had a major break through costume related breaks. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I liked moment, so perf You're in for a treat.

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<v Speaker 2>So all the out louders who are coming to the show,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Holly Wayne right, I already.

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<v Speaker 1>Said that, I'm me a Friedman. And also thanks to

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<v Speaker 1>Nivia Sellula for supporting us on this tour.

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<v Speaker 3>I am Jesse Stevens and on the show today.

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<v Speaker 2>Is there a right way to tell your partner that

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<v Speaker 2>you're into someone else? What if you met that other person?

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<v Speaker 2>In front of the world on reality TV? Welcome to

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<v Speaker 2>JoJo's Ciua's Weekend. Also the Price of Eggs and Elaspink

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<v Speaker 2>Culture War. Some highlights and low lights from the Leader's

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<v Speaker 2>Debate you probably didn't watch. George Clooney says he's never

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<v Speaker 2>found a reason to have an argument with his gorgeous,

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<v Speaker 2>genius wife, and we would like to pick a fight

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<v Speaker 2>with him about it and the tragic a virginiay free

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<v Speaker 2>and whether there are any lessons to be learned. But first, hey, everyone.

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<v Speaker 5>I'm Jared and one of the directors of Kangala Wildlife Rescue.

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<v Speaker 6>Hi, I'm Lisa.

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<v Speaker 7>I'm also one of the directors here at Kangala Wildlife Rescue.

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<v Speaker 5>Were so excited yesterday to be able to release the

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<v Speaker 5>information that Valerie has been secured. She's safe and sound

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<v Speaker 5>after what was a roller coaster ride. It was a

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<v Speaker 5>long tough battle, it was, wasn't.

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<v Speaker 2>It, Guys.

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<v Speaker 1>I just want to actually take the show over and

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<v Speaker 1>just talk about this topic today because Valerie the feral

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<v Speaker 1>sausage dog has been captured alive on Kangaroo Island after

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<v Speaker 1>running wild for five hundred and twenty nine days.

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<v Speaker 3>Should I'm missing in twenty twenty three.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, there's a lot of nouns in that headline, so

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<v Speaker 1>I'm going to unpack it for you in case you

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<v Speaker 1>haven't been following Valerie's story. The voices you just heard

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<v Speaker 1>were the two people who run Kangala Rescue. They're a

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<v Speaker 1>nonprofit animal rescue organization who have been involved with this rescue.

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<v Speaker 1>What happened is that back in November twenty three, as

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<v Speaker 1>you say, Jesse, Valerie, who weighs less than four kilos,

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<v Speaker 1>she's a miniature ducks on, so there's like an inch

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<v Speaker 1>clearance between her little tummy and the ground. Such little

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<v Speaker 1>legs couldn't go up steps, I would say. Anyway, she

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<v Speaker 1>went to Kangaroo Island with her owners for a camping trip.

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<v Speaker 1>Wouldn't think of taking my dog on a camping trip.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we take our dog campaign for you.

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<v Speaker 1>Actually, Okay, she escaped her pen. She got a bit

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<v Speaker 1>spooked and she ran into the bush and they searched

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<v Speaker 1>for five days. She was very much a lapdog. Her

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<v Speaker 1>owners are called Josh and Georgia. She'd never been away

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<v Speaker 1>from Georgia. She was just teeny tiny and after five

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<v Speaker 1>days they had to go home. They went back to

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<v Speaker 1>the mainland and kind of grieved their little.

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<v Speaker 4>Really, they were like, maybe Valerie got bitten by a snake.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, things could have happened.

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<v Speaker 1>They were like, Valerie is not a rough and tumble

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<v Speaker 1>dog who's going to survive. Well, she's not working dog.

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<v Speaker 1>She's a little privileged dog. Nearly a year later, Valerie

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<v Speaker 1>was sighted a little sausage dog with a pink collar,

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<v Speaker 1>fourteen kilometers away from where she went missing. That's when

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<v Speaker 1>Kangala Rescue got involved and the search for Valerie involved

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<v Speaker 1>over one thousand volunteer hours and more than five thousand

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<v Speaker 1>kilometers traveled by volunteers in private vehicles. There was deployment

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<v Speaker 1>and monitoring of cameras and traps and uses of all

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<v Speaker 1>kinds of technology to successfully trap her. What they ended

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<v Speaker 1>up doing it was amazing. They built this kind of

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<v Speaker 1>large pen. They got valerie z owners to send them.

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<v Speaker 2>T shirts of George's that had her.

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<v Speaker 1>Smell, and Valerie's toys and her favorite foods, and they

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<v Speaker 1>put it in and every few days she'd come and

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<v Speaker 1>she'd hang out there, and they had all cameras, but

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<v Speaker 1>they couldn't work out how to automatically close the door,

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<v Speaker 1>and then she'd leave, and sometimes she wouldn't come back

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<v Speaker 1>for a while, and they were watching her for months.

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<v Speaker 1>They would watch this happen, and they knew that they

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<v Speaker 1>didn't want to startle her. They had to be careful.

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<v Speaker 2>They had to also.

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<v Speaker 1>Not accidentally capture other wildlife. So eventually, on the weekend

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<v Speaker 1>they closed the door, they got Valerie, and I swear

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<v Speaker 1>I followed every step of this. I want a live

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<v Speaker 1>stream of the reunion when Valerie is integrated back with

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<v Speaker 1>her owners. What they said, which is interesting, is that

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<v Speaker 1>when a dog is lost. After about half an hour.

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<v Speaker 1>An hour when it works out that it's lost and

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<v Speaker 1>that it's not temporary, it flicks from domestic animal to

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<v Speaker 1>survival mode and it's like a whole other level that

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<v Speaker 1>it goes to. She's been in survival mode for all

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<v Speaker 1>of this time, and they think that she survived on

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<v Speaker 1>damn water and a diet of roadkill and native animals,

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<v Speaker 1>lots of resources apparently, but she evaded eagles and snakes

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<v Speaker 1>and all the elements. It's a great Australian story.

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<v Speaker 2>I can't underestimate a dash und. I had a friend

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<v Speaker 2>who has managed a dashund and one day that dashund

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<v Speaker 2>took out all that pat chickens, all of them.

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<v Speaker 1>Are you kidding?

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<v Speaker 2>I am not kicking such a little man. You imagine

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<v Speaker 2>the scene they walked into when they came back, and

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<v Speaker 2>just a very guilty and feathery dash und. They can

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<v Speaker 2>be really tough little buggers. And I wonder think about

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<v Speaker 2>all the stories Valerie has from her Oh, if she

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<v Speaker 2>could speak nearly two years on the lamb, she is

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<v Speaker 2>probably she's gonna go home. She's turning her nose up

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<v Speaker 2>at the fancy of my dog food. She really is.

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<v Speaker 4>See how rescue chili we think is part sausage. She

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<v Speaker 4>barely survives the park, she.

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<v Speaker 3>Has no instincts. She gets spooked by a pigeon.

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<v Speaker 1>But you don't know that that's only because of the

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<v Speaker 1>lifestyle that she's grown accustomed to. You you don't know

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<v Speaker 1>how long she was on the street.

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<v Speaker 4>For If I was taken bet so, I would not

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<v Speaker 4>think that she was gonna it's for me as well.

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<v Speaker 4>This story is about the fact.

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<v Speaker 3>Her name is Valerie.

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<v Speaker 4>I think that's something we need to acknowledge because it's

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<v Speaker 4>and it's not val It's Valerie.

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<v Speaker 3>Doesn't sound like she's gonna make it.

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<v Speaker 1>And yet Valerie for the win.

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<v Speaker 2>As someone who's lost a dog, this is one of

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<v Speaker 2>those stories of hope that will be pasted around those

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<v Speaker 2>lost dog Facebook groups. Four years.

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<v Speaker 4>All I've thought about this weekend other than Valerie is

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<v Speaker 4>Jojo sewa her former partner kath Ebbs, and the moral

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<v Speaker 4>quandary of what to do when you fall for someone else.

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<v Speaker 1>Allow me to explain, this is a huge story.

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<v Speaker 3>It's a huge story Jojo Siwah.

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<v Speaker 1>But some people will know nothing about it, not even

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<v Speaker 1>Jojo sewats.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm so sorry for them. And that's why we're here.

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<v Speaker 4>Jojo Sewah of Dance Mum's fame. She appeared on the

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<v Speaker 4>reality TV show for the first time at the age

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<v Speaker 4>of twelve, announced about eighteen months ago that she identified

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<v Speaker 4>as a lesbian. Right.

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<v Speaker 3>And then in November last.

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<v Speaker 4>Year, Jojo was in Australia for the TikTok Awards and

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<v Speaker 4>she met our very own Kath Ebbs.

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<v Speaker 1>I hadn't heard of kaf but just back on Jojo

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<v Speaker 1>for a second. I didn't watch Dance Mums, but I

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<v Speaker 1>seem to know her from her bows or something.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and there'll be a certain cohort of parents who

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<v Speaker 2>remember being nagged for JoJo's bows. I am one of them.

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<v Speaker 2>So she became this huge icon of having these big

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<v Speaker 2>hair bows and you could buy them online and they

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<v Speaker 2>spawned many imitators. If you didn't couldn't get hands on

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<v Speaker 2>JoJo's bows, you could get a fake Jojo. She would

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<v Speaker 2>have made a pretty penny from those boats.

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<v Speaker 1>She did.

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<v Speaker 4>And then she's also had this like rising music career. Recently,

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<v Speaker 4>she had a song named Karma That's gone. She's big

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<v Speaker 4>on TikTok right anyway, goes to the TikTok Awards, meets Kath.

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<v Speaker 4>Kath is an actor, presenter, podcast content creator, and the

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<v Speaker 4>pair quickly fell in love. Fast forward to Celebrity Big

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<v Speaker 4>Brother UK, where Jojo enters as a contestant, and there

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<v Speaker 4>she meets Chris Hughes. He is a former contestant of

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<v Speaker 4>Love Ireland. I don't know Chris. You don't know Chris.

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<v Speaker 2>No one kesna.

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<v Speaker 1>The coverage I'd read about Jojo and Celebrity Big Brother

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<v Speaker 1>is that Mickey Rourke was in the house. Mickey the

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<v Speaker 1>famous eighties celebrity nine and a half weeks with Kimbassenger

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<v Speaker 1>jen X's will remember is now very strange, and he

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<v Speaker 1>ended up getting kicked out because he said some awfully

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<v Speaker 1>homophobic things to her, and Big Brother made him be okay.

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<v Speaker 4>So Jojo and Chris start spending a lot of time together.

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<v Speaker 4>He tickles her back, They do some whispering, they do

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<v Speaker 4>some holding of the hands, They sleep in bed together.

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<v Speaker 3>They cuddle.

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<v Speaker 1>Was there any dancing doner I.

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<v Speaker 4>Don't think so from what I've seen from the clips

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<v Speaker 4>I've seen, but if that was my partner, it would be.

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<v Speaker 4>At one point, she says to him, give me forty

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<v Speaker 4>eight hours, and a few people thought that meant when

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<v Speaker 4>we get out, let's have a conversation.

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<v Speaker 3>I'll chat to my partner, Da da da.

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<v Speaker 4>Now commentary blows up because viewers are thinking, hang on,

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<v Speaker 4>how must Kath feel about all of this?

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<v Speaker 2>Now?

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<v Speaker 4>Last week was a finale and Kath flew from Australia

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<v Speaker 4>to London to be there for Jojo. And here's what

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<v Speaker 4>Kath said in a recently uploaded and then deleted video

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<v Speaker 4>to TikTok.

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<v Speaker 8>I flew here and I went to the live show

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<v Speaker 8>to show up for my partner and support them in

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<v Speaker 8>their experience and and then obviously later on address my

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<v Speaker 8>feelings of like hurt and they like work through them,

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<v Speaker 8>like core relationships too. But before I could even get

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<v Speaker 8>back to the hotel, I it's actually crazy, went to

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<v Speaker 8>the after party with with my I guess now ex

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<v Speaker 8>crazy thing to say and was dumped in the party.

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<v Speaker 8>I was told that there are confused feelings there. Do

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<v Speaker 8>with that what you will, and that they had realized

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<v Speaker 8>in the house that I wasn't the person that they wanted.

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<v Speaker 1>Brutial.

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<v Speaker 2>What a mess.

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<v Speaker 4>So Cath has said that Jojo actually proposed before she

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<v Speaker 4>went into the house that they were very, very serious

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<v Speaker 4>and they're totally blind sided by what's happened, and two

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<v Speaker 4>camps have since emerged. One group says JoJo's behavior totally unacceptable.

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<v Speaker 4>She has this history of short relationships. She has humiliated Cath.

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<v Speaker 4>It's impulsive and it's mean and a total disregard for

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<v Speaker 4>someone who actually loves her. The other camp says she

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<v Speaker 4>is still only twenty one years old. She's figuring out

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<v Speaker 4>her sexual orientation. She has worked tirelessly since she was

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<v Speaker 4>a child. She barely knows who she is, and technically

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<v Speaker 4>shouldn't she. There was no kissing, there was no fun

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<v Speaker 4>blank that we know of. She waited until she had

0:11:33.582 --> 0:11:36.102
<v Speaker 4>the opportunity to break up with her partner. She did

0:11:36.142 --> 0:11:37.982
<v Speaker 4>the right thing and now she's free to do what

0:11:38.022 --> 0:11:41.182
<v Speaker 4>she likes. May I help me work out what I

0:11:41.182 --> 0:11:45.902
<v Speaker 4>think about JoJo's Big Brother UK scandal because I can't.

0:11:45.982 --> 0:11:49.182
<v Speaker 4>The ethics, the dilemma of it all is keeping me

0:11:49.262 --> 0:11:49.702
<v Speaker 4>up at night.

0:11:49.902 --> 0:11:53.182
<v Speaker 1>I actually don't think anything about it. It's just an

0:11:53.302 --> 0:11:58.662
<v Speaker 1>interesting story because there's nothing really to think. What we

0:11:58.742 --> 0:12:01.222
<v Speaker 1>think doesn't matter, and I know that you can probably

0:12:01.262 --> 0:12:02.862
<v Speaker 1>say that about anything we talk about.

0:12:02.862 --> 0:12:03.622
<v Speaker 2>The show.

0:12:03.782 --> 0:12:04.902
<v Speaker 3>We just talk about Valorie.

0:12:05.142 --> 0:12:08.462
<v Speaker 1>Actually three hours that was important. What I thought was

0:12:08.502 --> 0:12:11.262
<v Speaker 1>interesting that aspect of this that I found most interesting

0:12:11.822 --> 0:12:14.302
<v Speaker 1>was what Cas said about I thought that it was

0:12:14.422 --> 0:12:18.262
<v Speaker 1>just a fake reality TV show and it wasn't everything

0:12:18.302 --> 0:12:20.782
<v Speaker 1>that people saw with all of the flirting that went

0:12:20.822 --> 0:12:23.422
<v Speaker 1>on between Jojo and Chris was real. And the other

0:12:23.462 --> 0:12:25.062
<v Speaker 1>thing that I thought was interesting was that in the

0:12:25.142 --> 0:12:30.342
<v Speaker 1>house Jojo announced I'm actually not a lesbian. I've realized

0:12:30.382 --> 0:12:35.702
<v Speaker 1>that I'm queer and I'm not the ln LGTVQI anymore.

0:12:35.742 --> 0:12:39.262
<v Speaker 1>I'm the Q And isn't that great? And that's what's

0:12:39.662 --> 0:12:42.342
<v Speaker 1>a great thing about sexuality is that it's fluid. So

0:12:42.462 --> 0:12:46.422
<v Speaker 1>I found that was an interesting point because obviously, when

0:12:46.422 --> 0:12:50.142
<v Speaker 1>she initially came out as being gay, that was a

0:12:50.142 --> 0:12:53.382
<v Speaker 1>big deal because Dance Mum's the audience for Dance Mums

0:12:53.382 --> 0:12:55.742
<v Speaker 1>and the whole cast in Dance Moms, that's a pretty

0:12:55.782 --> 0:12:59.302
<v Speaker 1>conservative world. And being a child star in that world

0:12:59.342 --> 0:13:03.262
<v Speaker 1>and also being a child and then growing up with

0:13:03.342 --> 0:13:05.502
<v Speaker 1>all the bows and stuff, and she did perform a

0:13:05.622 --> 0:13:10.622
<v Speaker 1>very sort of stereotypical femininity, you know, when she was

0:13:10.662 --> 0:13:13.742
<v Speaker 1>on the show and afterwards, and so that was a

0:13:13.822 --> 0:13:17.702
<v Speaker 1>huge deal. And now she's like, oh, well, maybe that's

0:13:17.822 --> 0:13:20.702
<v Speaker 1>not what I am. Maybe I'm actually queer, and the

0:13:20.742 --> 0:13:24.462
<v Speaker 1>implication being is that she had feelings for a man,

0:13:25.182 --> 0:13:28.542
<v Speaker 1>and I like that. You know, sexuality can be fluid.

0:13:28.622 --> 0:13:29.022
<v Speaker 2>You don't know.

0:13:29.102 --> 0:13:31.782
<v Speaker 1>You don't have to label yourself and put that in

0:13:31.822 --> 0:13:33.342
<v Speaker 1>a box and lock that box away.

0:13:33.782 --> 0:13:36.582
<v Speaker 3>Holly, do you think that what Jojo did was wrong?

0:13:36.662 --> 0:13:37.742
<v Speaker 3>Or did she do the right thing?

0:13:37.822 --> 0:13:38.502
<v Speaker 1>She didn't do anything.

0:13:38.862 --> 0:13:41.502
<v Speaker 2>It wasn't wrong. But I do have a lot of

0:13:41.582 --> 0:13:45.302
<v Speaker 2>empathy for cath because watching your partner flirt with someone

0:13:45.342 --> 0:13:49.502
<v Speaker 2>else is heart right. And I'm sure many of us

0:13:49.502 --> 0:13:51.942
<v Speaker 2>can think of times where we might have over a

0:13:51.982 --> 0:13:53.622
<v Speaker 2>course of our lives. We might have been at a party,

0:13:53.662 --> 0:13:55.182
<v Speaker 2>we might have been at a work thing and we're like,

0:13:55.822 --> 0:14:00.022
<v Speaker 2>you looked very cozy with so and so, and our

0:14:00.062 --> 0:14:03.342
<v Speaker 2>partner would say, oh no, we're just there's nothing. And

0:14:03.702 --> 0:14:06.302
<v Speaker 2>this isn't the first time that someone has fallen in

0:14:06.342 --> 0:14:08.262
<v Speaker 2>love and inverted comments. We don't know that that's what's

0:14:08.262 --> 0:14:11.582
<v Speaker 2>happened here, but had head turned on big brother. It's

0:14:11.582 --> 0:14:14.582
<v Speaker 2>a very intense situation. You're all living together twenty four

0:14:14.622 --> 0:14:19.182
<v Speaker 2>to seven. I can imagine how tempting it would be

0:14:19.222 --> 0:14:20.942
<v Speaker 2>to want to find someone who would tickle your back,

0:14:22.262 --> 0:14:25.022
<v Speaker 2>if you know what I mean. But she obviously had

0:14:25.062 --> 0:14:28.982
<v Speaker 2>as sured caf and I'm sure that she absolutely believed it.

0:14:29.022 --> 0:14:32.582
<v Speaker 2>This is all fakery, it will all be silliness. Don't worry.

0:14:32.622 --> 0:14:35.062
<v Speaker 2>Our love is strong. I love is fine. She didn't

0:14:35.102 --> 0:14:37.382
<v Speaker 2>know that she was going to fall for what's his

0:14:37.502 --> 0:14:40.542
<v Speaker 2>face in there. But I think my empathy does really

0:14:40.582 --> 0:14:43.982
<v Speaker 2>go to Kath because I can just imagine watching that

0:14:44.782 --> 0:14:47.102
<v Speaker 2>and You're there going like, you go, girl, I hope

0:14:47.142 --> 0:14:48.622
<v Speaker 2>you're having a great time, and they were like, oh,

0:14:48.702 --> 0:14:52.782
<v Speaker 2>now they're rubbing each other's hands, and now they're putting

0:14:52.822 --> 0:14:55.462
<v Speaker 2>their head on his shoulder, and now they're It would

0:14:55.542 --> 0:14:56.942
<v Speaker 2>be very hard to watch.

0:14:57.022 --> 0:15:01.782
<v Speaker 4>It's one thing to watch someone you love flirt with

0:15:01.822 --> 0:15:03.662
<v Speaker 4>someone else, and it is another to watch someone you

0:15:03.742 --> 0:15:05.382
<v Speaker 4>love fall for someone else.

0:15:05.462 --> 0:15:07.582
<v Speaker 3>And I have watched that. I have been.

0:15:07.702 --> 0:15:10.422
<v Speaker 4>I remember being and this is school time or early

0:15:10.462 --> 0:15:15.022
<v Speaker 4>twenties or something about this period where you watch people

0:15:15.102 --> 0:15:16.902
<v Speaker 4>that you're in a relationship with, and I would see

0:15:16.902 --> 0:15:18.902
<v Speaker 4>them meet someone and I'd go, oh my god, oh

0:15:18.902 --> 0:15:20.982
<v Speaker 4>my god, they're actually falling for each other, like right

0:15:21.062 --> 0:15:21.662
<v Speaker 4>in front of me.

0:15:21.902 --> 0:15:23.262
<v Speaker 2>But we're not right for each other.

0:15:23.382 --> 0:15:24.982
<v Speaker 3>You too a right for you to a right for

0:15:25.022 --> 0:15:25.462
<v Speaker 3>each other.

0:15:25.662 --> 0:15:27.742
<v Speaker 4>But I think I'm right for you, but I think

0:15:27.782 --> 0:15:31.102
<v Speaker 4>you've just found someone better. Like it's the most terrific,

0:15:31.302 --> 0:15:35.422
<v Speaker 4>confronting experience. But I did think Jojo is me when

0:15:35.462 --> 0:15:37.622
<v Speaker 4>I went to UNI. And that's why I find this

0:15:37.662 --> 0:15:40.182
<v Speaker 4>story interesting is because it's about celebrity big brother. And

0:15:40.222 --> 0:15:43.222
<v Speaker 4>it's not about celebrity big brother. It's about the intensity

0:15:43.222 --> 0:15:46.622
<v Speaker 4>of some environments. So whether it's work, or whether it's

0:15:46.662 --> 0:15:50.822
<v Speaker 4>a holiday, or whether it's a conference or whatever, where

0:15:50.862 --> 0:15:55.062
<v Speaker 4>you get adults in a closed environment, whether or not

0:15:55.062 --> 0:15:57.262
<v Speaker 4>they're in relationships. I went to UNI and I was

0:15:57.302 --> 0:15:59.502
<v Speaker 4>in a long term relationship and I was thrust into

0:15:59.542 --> 0:16:02.902
<v Speaker 4>this new world and I just went, I have outgrown

0:16:02.942 --> 0:16:07.262
<v Speaker 4>my old self. That's how it felt, and I ended

0:16:07.262 --> 0:16:11.582
<v Speaker 4>that relationship because that's what you're to do. But some

0:16:11.622 --> 0:16:14.462
<v Speaker 4>of this commentary, which I agree with, is that emotional

0:16:14.582 --> 0:16:17.782
<v Speaker 4>cheating is more painful than physical cheating. Would it have

0:16:17.822 --> 0:16:21.342
<v Speaker 4>been less painful if Jojo just went kissed whatever and

0:16:21.382 --> 0:16:24.702
<v Speaker 4>they weren't feelings. But what would be so sickening to

0:16:24.782 --> 0:16:26.742
<v Speaker 4>watch is like this connection developed.

0:16:26.822 --> 0:16:30.142
<v Speaker 1>Cath kept saying how humiliated they felt. So there's that

0:16:30.222 --> 0:16:31.302
<v Speaker 1>whole extra element to it.

0:16:31.382 --> 0:16:34.342
<v Speaker 2>And that's not nothing, right because when this has happened

0:16:34.382 --> 0:16:37.262
<v Speaker 2>before on reality TV, when you're the one who's going

0:16:37.302 --> 0:16:40.182
<v Speaker 2>in there and you want your back tickled, you're thinking

0:16:40.222 --> 0:16:43.582
<v Speaker 2>about your you know, your feelings, obviously, but you should

0:16:43.582 --> 0:16:46.222
<v Speaker 2>also remember that your partner is watching this like.

0:16:46.222 --> 0:16:47.662
<v Speaker 3>That is a lot and that's the thing.

0:16:47.702 --> 0:16:50.382
<v Speaker 4>The rest of us got to do this privately and

0:16:50.462 --> 0:16:53.382
<v Speaker 4>clumsily at twenty one in a club or at a

0:16:53.422 --> 0:16:57.342
<v Speaker 4>campus or whatever, and Jojo, by the nature of her

0:16:57.582 --> 0:17:02.302
<v Speaker 4>bizarre life, just did this on international television and it's

0:17:02.342 --> 0:17:04.901
<v Speaker 4>a completely different thing, and it would compound the pain

0:17:05.341 --> 0:17:06.302
<v Speaker 4>that Cath feels.

0:17:06.462 --> 0:17:08.742
<v Speaker 1>But what happens next, I think CAF is going to

0:17:08.742 --> 0:17:11.022
<v Speaker 1>be very popular. I think there are going to be

0:17:11.101 --> 0:17:14.581
<v Speaker 1>a lot of people sliding into their dms, I think

0:17:14.621 --> 0:17:18.421
<v Speaker 1>to help mend their broken heart. I think Jojo might

0:17:18.581 --> 0:17:23.421
<v Speaker 1>have over yes cooked this a little because Chris, who's

0:17:23.782 --> 0:17:27.341
<v Speaker 1>eleven years older than her, he's thirty two. He's given

0:17:27.422 --> 0:17:29.061
<v Speaker 1>quite a few interviews while he's like, yeah, I love

0:17:29.101 --> 0:17:31.581
<v Speaker 1>her as a friend and I just it was an

0:17:31.581 --> 0:17:34.581
<v Speaker 1>amazing time in the house. He's also done more reality

0:17:34.581 --> 0:17:37.101
<v Speaker 1>TV than her, so I think he's more understanding of

0:17:37.141 --> 0:17:38.101
<v Speaker 1>the transient nature.

0:17:38.381 --> 0:17:40.661
<v Speaker 2>There could be legs in them as a couple for

0:17:40.702 --> 0:17:43.262
<v Speaker 2>a while, though, in terms of publicity wise, now that

0:17:43.381 --> 0:17:45.542
<v Speaker 2>Kath has told everyone what happened, or at least their

0:17:45.621 --> 0:17:48.221
<v Speaker 2>understanding of what happened, Jojo in a way has been

0:17:48.262 --> 0:17:50.262
<v Speaker 2>given permission that if she and Chris wanted to tell

0:17:50.302 --> 0:17:52.061
<v Speaker 2>their side of the story, they could also do that.

0:17:52.182 --> 0:17:55.661
<v Speaker 4>Right, I reckon that Jojo did the right thing, regardless

0:17:55.661 --> 0:17:58.182
<v Speaker 4>of whether Chris wants her or not. I think I've

0:17:58.182 --> 0:18:00.262
<v Speaker 4>had that where I've liked someone else who definitely didn't

0:18:00.302 --> 0:18:02.782
<v Speaker 4>like me back, but that was enough to indicate to

0:18:02.821 --> 0:18:05.701
<v Speaker 4>me that what I was in wasn't right. However, I

0:18:05.742 --> 0:18:07.942
<v Speaker 4>would not be surprised if in the next six months

0:18:08.101 --> 0:18:12.222
<v Speaker 4>Jojo regrets it and she goes, oh, actually, I got

0:18:12.302 --> 0:18:16.662
<v Speaker 4>totally distracted over here and I really missed this, and

0:18:17.141 --> 0:18:18.782
<v Speaker 4>she kind of goes back on it.

0:18:19.101 --> 0:18:22.222
<v Speaker 1>Imagine if every dumb relationship you had in your early

0:18:22.302 --> 0:18:26.381
<v Speaker 1>twenties became an Internet story and part of the news

0:18:26.381 --> 0:18:28.581
<v Speaker 1>cycle or part of the TikTok cycle for weeks.

0:18:29.141 --> 0:18:32.022
<v Speaker 4>It would be very Sending so much love to Cath,

0:18:32.222 --> 0:18:35.342
<v Speaker 4>I just hope that you get so many hotties love

0:18:35.422 --> 0:18:36.701
<v Speaker 4>to cutting into those dms.

0:18:37.061 --> 0:18:37.861
<v Speaker 1>I think they're great.

0:18:38.022 --> 0:18:39.341
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:18:39.381 --> 0:18:43.501
<v Speaker 4>On Friday, forty one year old Virginia Jeffrey died by suicide.

0:18:43.661 --> 0:18:47.381
<v Speaker 4>Geffrey was publicly known as accusing Jeffrey Epstein, and Prince

0:18:47.422 --> 0:18:51.702
<v Speaker 4>Andrew of sexual abuse. She pursued criminal and civil actions

0:18:51.821 --> 0:18:56.381
<v Speaker 4>against Epstein and Galaine Maxwell. After suing Maxwell for defamation,

0:18:56.702 --> 0:19:00.262
<v Speaker 4>she received a settlement in twenty seventeen. Then she sued

0:19:00.302 --> 0:19:03.782
<v Speaker 4>Prince Andrew in civil court, which was settled in twenty

0:19:03.901 --> 0:19:07.461
<v Speaker 4>twenty two. Prince Andrew paid her an undisclosed amount, a

0:19:07.502 --> 0:19:11.742
<v Speaker 4>significant portion of which went her charity. Just weeks ago,

0:19:12.061 --> 0:19:15.781
<v Speaker 4>Jeffrey posted from a hospital bed in Perth describing how

0:19:15.821 --> 0:19:18.462
<v Speaker 4>she'd been involved in a bus crash and had four

0:19:18.542 --> 0:19:22.221
<v Speaker 4>days to live. A representative later said that post was

0:19:22.341 --> 0:19:25.061
<v Speaker 4>a mistake, intended to be shared to a private page,

0:19:25.422 --> 0:19:29.542
<v Speaker 4>and six days later Jeffrey was discharged from hospital. Then

0:19:29.621 --> 0:19:32.501
<v Speaker 4>came the news on Friday. This is such a tragic

0:19:32.581 --> 0:19:36.621
<v Speaker 4>ending to a tragic story. Can anything be learned from it?

0:19:37.141 --> 0:19:40.861
<v Speaker 2>There are advocates in the sexual abuse space who say

0:19:40.901 --> 0:19:42.821
<v Speaker 2>one of the things that we learned from it is

0:19:42.821 --> 0:19:47.662
<v Speaker 2>what a lifelong struggle it is to live with the

0:19:47.742 --> 0:19:52.542
<v Speaker 2>after effects of sexual abuse and the trauma associated with it.

0:19:53.542 --> 0:19:55.941
<v Speaker 2>I think one of the dangerous things about discussing this

0:19:56.022 --> 0:19:58.821
<v Speaker 2>story in that way, though, is that we never want

0:19:58.861 --> 0:20:02.782
<v Speaker 2>to be simplistic or make assumptions about why anyone would

0:20:02.861 --> 0:20:06.581
<v Speaker 2>end their life, right all the statistics and data that

0:20:06.621 --> 0:20:09.661
<v Speaker 2>we know, so that it's not a simple line. And

0:20:09.702 --> 0:20:12.862
<v Speaker 2>it was uncomfortable when we saw a lot of Virginia's face,

0:20:13.422 --> 0:20:15.502
<v Speaker 2>that image of her in the hospital bed all over

0:20:15.542 --> 0:20:18.702
<v Speaker 2>the media a few weeks ago. When you read those stories,

0:20:18.742 --> 0:20:21.181
<v Speaker 2>it was clear that she was very unwell and that

0:20:21.302 --> 0:20:23.861
<v Speaker 2>something very sad was happening, and it kind of felt

0:20:24.422 --> 0:20:27.662
<v Speaker 2>voyeuristic to be looking at that. One of the things

0:20:28.302 --> 0:20:30.821
<v Speaker 2>that is interesting about this particular case, though, because it

0:20:30.861 --> 0:20:35.421
<v Speaker 2>is so high profile, is some people are talking about

0:20:35.502 --> 0:20:40.262
<v Speaker 2>what it means for how we view her allegations and

0:20:40.341 --> 0:20:45.622
<v Speaker 2>how we view Prince Andrew's position denials of that right

0:20:46.101 --> 0:20:47.982
<v Speaker 2>because you know, there's sort of a little bit of

0:20:48.061 --> 0:20:52.821
<v Speaker 2>ghoulish commentary that has suggested that she was clearly so unwell,

0:20:53.542 --> 0:20:56.061
<v Speaker 2>bringing up issues of trust. And then there are others

0:20:56.341 --> 0:20:58.741
<v Speaker 2>also quite gaulish commentary in a way that's saying, well,

0:20:58.782 --> 0:21:02.061
<v Speaker 2>this maybe draws a line and allows Prince Andrew a

0:21:02.141 --> 0:21:05.701
<v Speaker 2>way back to respectability somehow. Both of those things I

0:21:05.742 --> 0:21:10.221
<v Speaker 2>think are probably overstated. I think that Prince Andrew's reputation

0:21:11.222 --> 0:21:13.901
<v Speaker 2>is beyond repair. I would suggest he was at the

0:21:13.982 --> 0:21:17.341
<v Speaker 2>Royal Family's Easter Sunday service, and he is, I mean,

0:21:17.341 --> 0:21:20.101
<v Speaker 2>he still exists. He's still out in the world, of course,

0:21:20.702 --> 0:21:23.381
<v Speaker 2>and some people are suggesting that this could be an

0:21:23.381 --> 0:21:27.621
<v Speaker 2>opportunity for him to make a statement and express his

0:21:27.742 --> 0:21:30.901
<v Speaker 2>sorrow and sadness. But I'm sure that that's actually the

0:21:30.982 --> 0:21:34.421
<v Speaker 2>last thing that Virginia Giffra's family would want is for

0:21:34.502 --> 0:21:37.862
<v Speaker 2>him to insert himself into this in any way. Certainly

0:21:37.861 --> 0:21:41.302
<v Speaker 2>what they feel from the statements that they've made, their

0:21:41.302 --> 0:21:43.302
<v Speaker 2>words were in the end, the toll of abuse is

0:21:43.341 --> 0:21:46.262
<v Speaker 2>so heavy that it became unbearable for Virginia to handle

0:21:46.302 --> 0:21:49.302
<v Speaker 2>its weight. And just the sorrow and sadness that they

0:21:49.381 --> 0:21:51.422
<v Speaker 2>must feel unimaginable.

0:21:51.502 --> 0:21:54.181
<v Speaker 1>It's so tragic. She had three kids, she was forty

0:21:54.222 --> 0:21:57.302
<v Speaker 1>one and lived in Australia for a lot of the

0:21:57.381 --> 0:22:01.742
<v Speaker 1>last decades of her life. What was notable in the

0:22:01.821 --> 0:22:05.341
<v Speaker 1>last few weeks, when I think everybody felt unsettled seeing

0:22:05.581 --> 0:22:08.022
<v Speaker 1>those photos and the coverage of it, and then the

0:22:08.061 --> 0:22:12.661
<v Speaker 1>speculation about the accident that didn't really happen clearly, as

0:22:12.702 --> 0:22:15.222
<v Speaker 1>you say, oh, she was unwell, but there was a sense,

0:22:15.262 --> 0:22:17.462
<v Speaker 1>and there were some horrible things said on social media

0:22:17.462 --> 0:22:20.262
<v Speaker 1>by some of Andrew's supporters that he was going to

0:22:20.302 --> 0:22:23.781
<v Speaker 1>be vindicated, and that him saying that he I mean,

0:22:23.782 --> 0:22:26.061
<v Speaker 1>he can't deny that he knew and was friendly with

0:22:26.141 --> 0:22:28.941
<v Speaker 1>Jeffrey Epstein and troubled with him and stayed in his house,

0:22:29.262 --> 0:22:33.942
<v Speaker 1>but he denied the specificity of the case against him

0:22:34.061 --> 0:22:37.821
<v Speaker 1>with Virginia Jeffrey's accusations. Now that was settled out of court,

0:22:38.502 --> 0:22:41.262
<v Speaker 1>and as part of that settlement, in which she's rumored

0:22:41.302 --> 0:22:46.582
<v Speaker 1>to have received a financial payout that was significant, she

0:22:46.702 --> 0:22:50.901
<v Speaker 1>wasn't allowed to speak about it anymore, which is both

0:22:50.942 --> 0:22:54.661
<v Speaker 1>good and bad in terms of she was gagged essentially

0:22:54.821 --> 0:22:56.942
<v Speaker 1>in exchange for that money. It's a pretty common thing

0:22:56.982 --> 0:22:59.542
<v Speaker 1>and you've got to make some really tough decisions. But

0:22:59.821 --> 0:23:02.742
<v Speaker 1>now it's interesting the idea of it being a line

0:23:02.861 --> 0:23:06.222
<v Speaker 1>under this case for him, in that you can now

0:23:06.262 --> 0:23:09.101
<v Speaker 1>say all kinds of things about her because you can't

0:23:09.101 --> 0:23:13.902
<v Speaker 1>defame that dead. But I think it bars any redemption

0:23:14.061 --> 0:23:16.542
<v Speaker 1>arc for him because there was a sense that and

0:23:16.581 --> 0:23:18.421
<v Speaker 1>everyone said this was very naive, that he could go

0:23:18.502 --> 0:23:22.621
<v Speaker 1>away and just maybe do charity work and quietly reappear.

0:23:23.381 --> 0:23:24.422
<v Speaker 2>But he's been.

0:23:24.262 --> 0:23:27.621
<v Speaker 1>Involved in other scandals. There was another Chinese by scandal.

0:23:28.022 --> 0:23:31.181
<v Speaker 1>He hasn't showered himself in glory since this happened. He

0:23:31.222 --> 0:23:34.382
<v Speaker 1>will never be able to acquit himself of these charges

0:23:34.422 --> 0:23:37.061
<v Speaker 1>and of this speculation because she's not around.

0:23:37.341 --> 0:23:39.741
<v Speaker 2>I was thinking about that when we were researching this today,

0:23:40.222 --> 0:23:43.902
<v Speaker 2>and the fact that his disappearance, as it were, is right.

0:23:44.422 --> 0:23:47.622
<v Speaker 2>But then there's another bit of me that's like he's

0:23:47.661 --> 0:23:50.502
<v Speaker 2>sort of being paid by his brother really to just

0:23:50.581 --> 0:23:53.542
<v Speaker 2>live a nice life and shut up. You know, it's

0:23:53.581 --> 0:23:56.061
<v Speaker 2>not actually a very admirable way to live if he

0:23:56.101 --> 0:23:58.701
<v Speaker 2>did really feel Because the thing is what we have

0:23:58.702 --> 0:24:01.182
<v Speaker 2>to remember, he's always absolutely denied his involvement, and that's

0:24:01.942 --> 0:24:05.621
<v Speaker 2>his absolute prerogative. But for Virginia Giffrey, she did not

0:24:05.702 --> 0:24:08.262
<v Speaker 2>only allege that she was abused by him. She says

0:24:08.262 --> 0:24:10.542
<v Speaker 2>she was passed around by EPs in circle. The fact

0:24:10.581 --> 0:24:12.221
<v Speaker 2>that she suffered abuse at the hands of rich and

0:24:12.262 --> 0:24:16.101
<v Speaker 2>powerful men is not under question. Actually, what was never

0:24:16.141 --> 0:24:18.061
<v Speaker 2>proven is whether or not Prince Andrew it was one

0:24:18.061 --> 0:24:20.782
<v Speaker 2>of those people, and so there's a bit of me

0:24:20.861 --> 0:24:24.021
<v Speaker 2>that's like, it's right that he should be disappeared, as

0:24:24.061 --> 0:24:26.782
<v Speaker 2>it were, by the royal family, but it's also like

0:24:27.222 --> 0:24:31.861
<v Speaker 2>it's just a very ignoble weak end to a.

0:24:34.222 --> 0:24:34.462
<v Speaker 1>Justice.

0:24:34.661 --> 0:24:39.101
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I think it teaches us something to about their compassion.

0:24:39.742 --> 0:24:42.182
<v Speaker 4>We owed her a few weeks ago, and there wasn't

0:24:42.182 --> 0:24:45.141
<v Speaker 4>a lot of compassion in the commentary because how we

0:24:45.182 --> 0:24:48.741
<v Speaker 4>see mental health is still something I don't think a

0:24:48.861 --> 0:24:52.022
<v Speaker 4>lot of us know how to talk about properly, and

0:24:52.381 --> 0:24:56.061
<v Speaker 4>I think that we're still developing a language and framework

0:24:56.302 --> 0:25:00.302
<v Speaker 4>by which to understand trauma and the brain and what

0:25:00.462 --> 0:25:02.821
<v Speaker 4>it does to a life. And as you say, Holly,

0:25:03.222 --> 0:25:05.582
<v Speaker 4>that's not to say that one cannot flourish, and there

0:25:05.621 --> 0:25:08.622
<v Speaker 4>is in hope, There absolutely is, But it's also worth

0:25:08.661 --> 0:25:13.142
<v Speaker 4>acknowledging that child sex abuse comes with a mortality rate.

0:25:13.341 --> 0:25:16.222
<v Speaker 4>If you were to be diagnosed with something and they said,

0:25:16.621 --> 0:25:18.782
<v Speaker 4>you know this is going to impact your life expectancy,

0:25:18.782 --> 0:25:22.661
<v Speaker 4>then we understand that are something more straightforward. But for

0:25:22.782 --> 0:25:25.981
<v Speaker 4>this and then the complication of the life lived in

0:25:26.022 --> 0:25:29.701
<v Speaker 4>between is just something that we're still getting our head around.

0:25:29.942 --> 0:25:33.061
<v Speaker 4>And I think of those images of her and how

0:25:33.061 --> 0:25:35.381
<v Speaker 4>the media didn't know what to do with it. We

0:25:35.502 --> 0:25:37.581
<v Speaker 4>now see it through the prism of that was a

0:25:37.621 --> 0:25:40.581
<v Speaker 4>woman in an enormous amount of pain, regardless of how

0:25:40.621 --> 0:25:44.341
<v Speaker 4>she was talking about it. It just makes it even more.

0:25:44.182 --> 0:25:47.701
<v Speaker 2>Tragic in a moment, the new gotcha question for our

0:25:47.702 --> 0:25:55.061
<v Speaker 2>political leaders that's almost impossible to answer. There are five

0:25:55.141 --> 0:25:59.302
<v Speaker 2>sleeps now until this mercifully dull federal election campaign comes

0:25:59.302 --> 0:26:01.501
<v Speaker 2>to a close. People are roundly saying it's been one

0:26:01.502 --> 0:26:03.702
<v Speaker 2>of the most boring elections ever, And to that I say,

0:26:03.782 --> 0:26:06.782
<v Speaker 2>thank god. Yeah, We've all seen what happens in exciting

0:26:06.821 --> 0:26:10.662
<v Speaker 2>elections in other parts of the world. I've already voted,

0:26:10.821 --> 0:26:13.381
<v Speaker 2>so a lot of Australians have already voted, and many

0:26:13.422 --> 0:26:15.782
<v Speaker 2>many more will have already voted before election day. No

0:26:15.782 --> 0:26:18.622
<v Speaker 2>one hangs around for the democracy sausage anymore. But if

0:26:18.621 --> 0:26:23.701
<v Speaker 2>you voted before last night's fourth leader's debate, you missed

0:26:23.782 --> 0:26:28.542
<v Speaker 2>two enormous things. One, no one knows the price of eggs.

0:26:29.061 --> 0:26:30.742
<v Speaker 2>It used to be that to prove how out of

0:26:30.821 --> 0:26:33.341
<v Speaker 2>touch a politician was, you asked them about milk. How

0:26:33.422 --> 0:26:35.302
<v Speaker 2>much is a pine of milk? We used to say,

0:26:35.742 --> 0:26:38.581
<v Speaker 2>Now it's eggs. But It's a very hard question to answer,

0:26:38.702 --> 0:26:40.981
<v Speaker 2>even for the keen bean assistants who have to like

0:26:41.061 --> 0:26:44.182
<v Speaker 2>prep the ministers with this, because what are we talking about?

0:26:44.182 --> 0:26:46.661
<v Speaker 2>Are we talking about cage eggs, free range eggs, organic eggs,

0:26:46.702 --> 0:26:49.381
<v Speaker 2>regular or large? Are we talking about grain fed eggs,

0:26:49.381 --> 0:26:53.861
<v Speaker 2>barn laid vegetarian eggs, hormone free eggs? What about omega enrichment?

0:26:54.262 --> 0:26:55.661
<v Speaker 2>This is a very hard question.

0:26:55.782 --> 0:26:57.942
<v Speaker 3>Are we talking about aldi or house farm exactly?

0:26:58.022 --> 0:27:02.261
<v Speaker 1>Are we talking about Cadbury cream eggs? I know how

0:27:02.341 --> 0:27:05.901
<v Speaker 1>much they cost. I can't believe how much. Tell me

0:27:05.982 --> 0:27:07.422
<v Speaker 1>how much actual eggs cost.

0:27:07.581 --> 0:27:10.101
<v Speaker 2>So they average out given all the things we just

0:27:10.141 --> 0:27:13.262
<v Speaker 2>talked about, they're somewhere around six to seven to eight dollars.

0:27:13.302 --> 0:27:14.142
<v Speaker 2>It depends right.

0:27:14.182 --> 0:27:16.141
<v Speaker 1>How much do you think it Cantree cream egg costs?

0:27:16.222 --> 0:27:18.622
<v Speaker 2>You tell me, maya between two dollars.

0:27:18.341 --> 0:27:20.821
<v Speaker 1>Fifty and three dollars thirty. But if you want the

0:27:20.942 --> 0:27:24.061
<v Speaker 1>ice cream, you can get a four pack for twelve dollars.

0:27:24.182 --> 0:27:26.542
<v Speaker 2>Somebody put this woman on the leader's to beate. She'd

0:27:26.742 --> 0:27:29.861
<v Speaker 2>nail it. Don't guess four, which isn't true for any

0:27:29.861 --> 0:27:32.022
<v Speaker 2>of these levels of eggs. And Albo had a couple

0:27:32.101 --> 0:27:35.022
<v Speaker 2>of goes, which reveal he's probably a free range kind

0:27:35.022 --> 0:27:35.302
<v Speaker 2>of guy.

0:27:35.381 --> 0:27:37.902
<v Speaker 4>Can I just offer a defense for not knowing the

0:27:37.942 --> 0:27:41.702
<v Speaker 4>prices of most things? I think that since we no

0:27:41.861 --> 0:27:47.341
<v Speaker 4>longer use cash and we are tapping willy nilly, I

0:27:47.341 --> 0:27:50.382
<v Speaker 4>think we have lost a bit of a sense of

0:27:50.422 --> 0:27:53.421
<v Speaker 4>how much things cost, and because of like click and collect.

0:27:53.422 --> 0:27:57.101
<v Speaker 4>And also I go into my local usually Audi chuck

0:27:57.141 --> 0:27:59.381
<v Speaker 4>fifteen things in and it's five hundred dollars, and I go,

0:27:59.462 --> 0:28:01.381
<v Speaker 4>that's a lot. I don't know if my eggs were

0:28:01.422 --> 0:28:03.302
<v Speaker 4>eighty five dollars or if that was just the milk.

0:28:03.821 --> 0:28:07.022
<v Speaker 4>And so I know that there are some families, in fact,

0:28:07.341 --> 0:28:11.061
<v Speaker 4>a significant portion of families who are budgeting every week

0:28:11.101 --> 0:28:12.382
<v Speaker 4>and who might know more.

0:28:12.422 --> 0:28:14.461
<v Speaker 3>But I do think it's difficult.

0:28:13.982 --> 0:28:17.941
<v Speaker 2>Hi, and I accept your defense accepted. However, given the

0:28:17.942 --> 0:28:20.621
<v Speaker 2>price of eggs is currently like a global story, like

0:28:20.661 --> 0:28:22.742
<v Speaker 2>Trump's always being asked about the price of eggs too,

0:28:23.061 --> 0:28:25.302
<v Speaker 2>I feel like you might have a few numbers in

0:28:25.302 --> 0:28:27.422
<v Speaker 2>your pocket, which I think the chaps did. And as

0:28:27.542 --> 0:28:29.341
<v Speaker 2>like Mia and her cream eggs, they were heading their

0:28:29.341 --> 0:28:32.902
<v Speaker 2>beds anyway, onto more important matters. One of the big

0:28:32.901 --> 0:28:35.421
<v Speaker 2>criticisms of this election is that there's not actually a

0:28:35.462 --> 0:28:38.662
<v Speaker 2>lot of difference between the major parties. They keep agreeing

0:28:38.661 --> 0:28:42.382
<v Speaker 2>to match each other's promises, match each other spends, But

0:28:42.542 --> 0:28:45.661
<v Speaker 2>this last week a culture gap is being wedged open

0:28:45.742 --> 0:28:49.502
<v Speaker 2>when it comes to acknowledgment of country addresses a public events.

0:28:49.822 --> 0:28:53.822
<v Speaker 2>At the debate, both leaders condemned the people who heckled

0:28:53.822 --> 0:28:56.782
<v Speaker 2>and booed Uncle Mark Brown when he delivered the Welcome

0:28:56.822 --> 0:29:00.582
<v Speaker 2>to Country at Melbourne's Shrine of Remembrance on Friday morning.

0:29:01.302 --> 0:29:04.422
<v Speaker 2>Those people were arrested. They were believed to be part

0:29:04.462 --> 0:29:07.382
<v Speaker 2>of far right neo Nazi groups, and both Stutton and

0:29:07.422 --> 0:29:11.422
<v Speaker 2>Albanesi said that level of disrespect absolutely no place, especially

0:29:11.422 --> 0:29:13.822
<v Speaker 2>on Amazac Day, but no place in our culture in general.

0:29:14.342 --> 0:29:17.262
<v Speaker 2>But the sentiment itself that there is a growing group

0:29:17.262 --> 0:29:19.502
<v Speaker 2>of Australians who would like to see the back of

0:29:19.542 --> 0:29:22.742
<v Speaker 2>welcome to Country and acknowledgment of country addresses at public

0:29:22.742 --> 0:29:26.142
<v Speaker 2>gatherings is one that has been seized on by Clive

0:29:26.182 --> 0:29:29.662
<v Speaker 2>Palmer's campaign and to a lesser extent by the Liberals.

0:29:29.902 --> 0:29:32.102
<v Speaker 2>This is what both leaders had to say about it

0:29:32.142 --> 0:29:33.261
<v Speaker 2>at last night's debate.

0:29:33.742 --> 0:29:36.062
<v Speaker 9>I think there is and people have said this to

0:29:36.102 --> 0:29:39.542
<v Speaker 9>me as we've moved across the country. There is a

0:29:39.661 --> 0:29:43.582
<v Speaker 9>sense across the community that it's overdone. For the opening

0:29:43.582 --> 0:29:47.262
<v Speaker 9>of Parliament fair enough, it's respectful to do. But for

0:29:48.102 --> 0:29:50.862
<v Speaker 9>the start of every meeting at work or the start

0:29:50.862 --> 0:29:53.342
<v Speaker 9>of a football game. I think a lot of Australians

0:29:53.342 --> 0:29:56.421
<v Speaker 9>think it's overdone and it cheapens the significance of what

0:29:56.462 --> 0:29:59.822
<v Speaker 9>it was meant to do. It divides the country. Not

0:29:59.902 --> 0:30:02.022
<v Speaker 9>this similar to Prime Minister, Yes.

0:30:02.422 --> 0:30:02.941
<v Speaker 2>Of the Prime Minister.

0:30:03.102 --> 0:30:06.542
<v Speaker 9>Prime Minister, you always have at your official events, have

0:30:06.661 --> 0:30:09.222
<v Speaker 9>been a lot of them, smoking ceremonies, welcome to country,

0:30:09.982 --> 0:30:12.182
<v Speaker 9>acknowledgement of traditional honors.

0:30:12.422 --> 0:30:16.062
<v Speaker 6>Well, from my perspective, it's a matter of respect. But

0:30:16.142 --> 0:30:20.062
<v Speaker 6>it's also of course up to the organizations that are

0:30:20.062 --> 0:30:22.941
<v Speaker 6>hosting an event of whether they have a welcome to

0:30:23.022 --> 0:30:26.182
<v Speaker 6>country or not. It's up to them, and people will

0:30:26.182 --> 0:30:28.782
<v Speaker 6>have different views and people are in toitle their views.

0:30:29.342 --> 0:30:32.542
<v Speaker 6>But we have a great privilege from my perspective, of

0:30:32.661 --> 0:30:36.421
<v Speaker 6>sharing this continent with the oldest continuous culture on earth,

0:30:36.822 --> 0:30:40.902
<v Speaker 6>and when I welcome international visitors to Parliament House, you

0:30:40.982 --> 0:30:43.142
<v Speaker 6>know what they want to see that culture.

0:30:43.342 --> 0:30:47.021
<v Speaker 2>What do we think about this debate in inverted commas

0:30:47.102 --> 0:30:50.062
<v Speaker 2>being brought up at this late stage of the election campaign.

0:30:50.342 --> 0:30:56.742
<v Speaker 4>I think that Dutton has some data about what Australians think.

0:30:57.182 --> 0:30:59.822
<v Speaker 4>News dot com and say what you like about that

0:30:59.862 --> 0:31:02.382
<v Speaker 4>particular audience. But they did a poll just over the

0:31:02.422 --> 0:31:05.262
<v Speaker 4>weekend and they polled fifty thousand Australians and sixty five

0:31:05.342 --> 0:31:08.862
<v Speaker 4>percent said they think welcome to country ceremonies should stop

0:31:08.902 --> 0:31:12.302
<v Speaker 4>completely right, And I know it's not a very official

0:31:12.342 --> 0:31:14.742
<v Speaker 4>poll and it's people on the internet who are anonymous.

0:31:14.902 --> 0:31:20.062
<v Speaker 4>Doesn't necessarily stand up, but I have sat at dinner tables,

0:31:20.702 --> 0:31:24.062
<v Speaker 4>especially across from people who work in the corporate sector,

0:31:24.582 --> 0:31:30.902
<v Speaker 4>who have said that they think that the acknowledgment of country,

0:31:30.942 --> 0:31:33.542
<v Speaker 4>which we should say, is very different to a welcome

0:31:33.542 --> 0:31:36.342
<v Speaker 4>to country. So a welcome to country is done by

0:31:36.582 --> 0:31:40.941
<v Speaker 4>an indigenous person, it is an official ceremony, there's official wording.

0:31:41.262 --> 0:31:45.302
<v Speaker 4>An acknowledgment of country is done by a white person

0:31:45.462 --> 0:31:48.622
<v Speaker 4>or someone who is not Indigenous, who's acknowledging the land

0:31:48.782 --> 0:31:51.502
<v Speaker 4>that they are currently on. And they've said that they've

0:31:51.542 --> 0:31:54.782
<v Speaker 4>sat in meetings and an acknowledgment of country has started

0:31:54.822 --> 0:31:56.502
<v Speaker 4>the meeting and then there might be twenty people on

0:31:56.542 --> 0:31:59.982
<v Speaker 4>the call from all over Australia and they go round

0:32:00.062 --> 0:32:03.262
<v Speaker 4>and all of them have to acknowledge, and they've said

0:32:03.542 --> 0:32:06.622
<v Speaker 4>that they think that's overkill the time and the performance

0:32:06.661 --> 0:32:09.822
<v Speaker 4>of it all. They think it's necessary at a football game,

0:32:09.862 --> 0:32:12.662
<v Speaker 4>at a conference, but when it's in the individualized, even

0:32:12.702 --> 0:32:15.582
<v Speaker 4>one on one meetings, they think there's something a little

0:32:15.622 --> 0:32:16.582
<v Speaker 4>bit performative about it.

0:32:16.661 --> 0:32:19.542
<v Speaker 3>Right. But on the other hand, I've.

0:32:19.382 --> 0:32:23.062
<v Speaker 4>Been watching this debate on fell over the weekend and

0:32:23.102 --> 0:32:26.661
<v Speaker 4>I keep thinking of Thomas Mayo and Megan Davis and

0:32:26.702 --> 0:32:30.981
<v Speaker 4>the dozens of Indigenous activists who worked tirelessly on the

0:32:31.022 --> 0:32:35.221
<v Speaker 4>Voice to Parliament, and when that came back as a no,

0:32:35.622 --> 0:32:41.022
<v Speaker 4>I think it emboldened those who want absolutely no recognition

0:32:41.142 --> 0:32:43.542
<v Speaker 4>and who want to pretend that this country wasn't colonized.

0:32:44.302 --> 0:32:47.582
<v Speaker 4>And remember the Liberal Party basically said at the time,

0:32:47.661 --> 0:32:49.661
<v Speaker 4>we don't support the Voice, but we're open to some

0:32:49.742 --> 0:32:52.902
<v Speaker 4>other form of recognition to that. I keep wondering, where

0:32:52.942 --> 0:32:53.222
<v Speaker 4>is it?

0:32:53.582 --> 0:32:54.021
<v Speaker 3>Where is it?

0:32:54.022 --> 0:32:55.742
<v Speaker 4>This is where we are, This is where we are,

0:32:55.782 --> 0:32:59.102
<v Speaker 4>a week out from an election where there are massive

0:32:59.182 --> 0:33:04.782
<v Speaker 4>issues to discuss, and we are talking about whether a

0:33:04.902 --> 0:33:10.142
<v Speaker 4>one minute acknowledgment of our history is worth it or not.

0:33:10.622 --> 0:33:13.542
<v Speaker 4>And remember too, the reason that acknowledgment of country and

0:33:13.582 --> 0:33:16.702
<v Speaker 4>welcome to Country exists is because there is no official

0:33:16.902 --> 0:33:20.421
<v Speaker 4>Indigenous recognition in our constitution and because for most of

0:33:20.462 --> 0:33:24.422
<v Speaker 4>our history we have literally erased indigenous existence. That's why

0:33:24.422 --> 0:33:27.542
<v Speaker 4>it happens at Anzac Day, because there were Indigenous diggers

0:33:27.582 --> 0:33:30.782
<v Speaker 4>who were written out of history until five minutes ago.

0:33:31.182 --> 0:33:34.302
<v Speaker 1>I thought it was really interesting and kind of surprising,

0:33:34.462 --> 0:33:38.461
<v Speaker 1>but also not that Dutton brought this up, or that

0:33:38.542 --> 0:33:43.222
<v Speaker 1>this came up in the debate, because it's been refreshingly

0:33:43.422 --> 0:33:47.542
<v Speaker 1>free of what's referred to often as culture wars issues

0:33:47.622 --> 0:33:51.661
<v Speaker 1>in this election, which is perhaps why we haven't heard

0:33:51.702 --> 0:33:53.981
<v Speaker 1>so much about it, because, as you say, it hasn't

0:33:54.022 --> 0:33:57.302
<v Speaker 1>been about the stuff that gets people riled up online

0:33:57.902 --> 0:34:00.102
<v Speaker 1>and so it hasn't really made the news cycle the

0:34:00.222 --> 0:34:03.421
<v Speaker 1>various policies. But as it gets down to the home straight,

0:34:03.582 --> 0:34:07.302
<v Speaker 1>I think that Dutton, who has really been challenged in

0:34:07.382 --> 0:34:10.181
<v Speaker 1>terms of being able to say, well either of them

0:34:10.222 --> 0:34:13.102
<v Speaker 1>what they stand for. Dutton has not had the cut

0:34:13.142 --> 0:34:15.982
<v Speaker 1>through that perhaps he hoped he would, and I think

0:34:16.022 --> 0:34:18.982
<v Speaker 1>he's trying to grasp on to any issue that's in

0:34:19.022 --> 0:34:21.062
<v Speaker 1>the new cycle, and it was in the new cycle

0:34:21.062 --> 0:34:25.102
<v Speaker 1>because of what happened with Anzac Day. It's such a

0:34:25.142 --> 0:34:29.941
<v Speaker 1>good point also that Elbow made about it's not mandatory.

0:34:30.102 --> 0:34:33.701
<v Speaker 1>There's no law that says you have to. Therefore we

0:34:33.741 --> 0:34:35.901
<v Speaker 1>don't need a law that says you don't have to.

0:34:36.542 --> 0:34:39.821
<v Speaker 1>Everybody gets to choose. And if it's taking up too

0:34:39.862 --> 0:34:42.582
<v Speaker 1>long in your meeting and the people don't feel that

0:34:42.622 --> 0:34:46.022
<v Speaker 1>it's something that they want to do, then talk about that.

0:34:46.261 --> 0:34:48.582
<v Speaker 1>But I don't object to it at any of the

0:34:48.622 --> 0:34:50.341
<v Speaker 1>events i'm at. I think it can be a really

0:34:50.342 --> 0:34:51.062
<v Speaker 1>beautiful theme.

0:34:51.221 --> 0:34:54.462
<v Speaker 2>I think it's worth acknowledging that across the country. On Friday,

0:34:54.582 --> 0:34:58.462
<v Speaker 2>when those people were shouting at Uncle Mark Brown, hundreds

0:34:58.542 --> 0:35:03.222
<v Speaker 2>and thousands of Australians were standing and respectfully, silently listening

0:35:03.661 --> 0:35:07.261
<v Speaker 2>to a welcome to country before paying their respects at

0:35:07.302 --> 0:35:10.661
<v Speaker 2>a dawn service. I don't think that this sort of

0:35:10.741 --> 0:35:13.661
<v Speaker 2>shouty line about I don't need to be welcome to

0:35:13.661 --> 0:35:16.942
<v Speaker 2>my country, which is what's in the Clive Palmarads, actually

0:35:17.022 --> 0:35:22.062
<v Speaker 2>has that much traction. It is a willful misunderstanding misrepresentation

0:35:22.142 --> 0:35:24.382
<v Speaker 2>of what a welcome to country is. You're actually being included,

0:35:24.462 --> 0:35:27.221
<v Speaker 2>not excluded, by a welcome to country, So it's a

0:35:27.261 --> 0:35:30.742
<v Speaker 2>willful misunderstanding and I would like to imagine that certainly

0:35:30.781 --> 0:35:34.142
<v Speaker 2>for kids like mine who have grown up with acknowledgments

0:35:34.142 --> 0:35:37.102
<v Speaker 2>and welcomes to country and you know, singing the national

0:35:37.261 --> 0:35:39.662
<v Speaker 2>anthem in language and all these things, it doesn't feel

0:35:39.741 --> 0:35:43.062
<v Speaker 2>strange or extreme or scary or any of the things

0:35:43.062 --> 0:35:46.462
<v Speaker 2>that I think we're sort of being whipped up to consider.

0:35:46.502 --> 0:35:47.102
<v Speaker 2>Maybe it does.

0:35:47.342 --> 0:35:49.062
<v Speaker 4>I just want to talk about the impact for a minute,

0:35:49.062 --> 0:35:51.142
<v Speaker 4>because what happened over the weekend too is that there

0:35:51.221 --> 0:35:55.181
<v Speaker 4>was some sort of alleged misunderstanding. There was an NRL game,

0:35:55.382 --> 0:35:59.102
<v Speaker 4>Melbourne Storm playing, and there was a welcome to country organized.

0:35:59.261 --> 0:36:02.181
<v Speaker 4>Then the organizer said, oh, wait, we don't want to

0:36:02.221 --> 0:36:06.022
<v Speaker 4>do one, and the Indigenous people who were there ready

0:36:06.062 --> 0:36:08.622
<v Speaker 4>to do it kind of were shocked by that, and

0:36:08.661 --> 0:36:10.701
<v Speaker 4>then they said, oh, there's an understanding. Actually we do

0:36:10.781 --> 0:36:12.941
<v Speaker 4>want you to and they ended up talking to each

0:36:12.942 --> 0:36:14.542
<v Speaker 4>other and going, no, we're not going to do it

0:36:14.542 --> 0:36:17.902
<v Speaker 4>because we feel really uncomfortable. The ABAC went and spoke

0:36:17.982 --> 0:36:20.902
<v Speaker 4>to some people who were at those ceremonies who are Indigenous,

0:36:21.261 --> 0:36:23.862
<v Speaker 4>and one man said, I will never attend an Anzac

0:36:23.902 --> 0:36:26.582
<v Speaker 4>Day service at the shrine again. And I think that

0:36:26.582 --> 0:36:29.861
<v Speaker 4>that's the loss here is that it has taken so

0:36:30.022 --> 0:36:35.221
<v Speaker 4>many years for a particular community to feel dignified, to

0:36:35.261 --> 0:36:37.781
<v Speaker 4>feel included. The person who suffered in that was a

0:36:37.781 --> 0:36:39.821
<v Speaker 4>person trying to give the welcome to country, and they

0:36:39.822 --> 0:36:42.781
<v Speaker 4>were humiliated, and they are within their rights to go.

0:36:42.822 --> 0:36:44.181
<v Speaker 4>I don't want to do that again. I don't want

0:36:44.221 --> 0:36:45.102
<v Speaker 4>to be put in that position.

0:36:46.181 --> 0:36:49.782
<v Speaker 1>After the break, shifting gears because we have some feedback

0:36:49.781 --> 0:36:51.741
<v Speaker 1>for the famous couple who claim that they haven't had

0:36:51.741 --> 0:36:53.382
<v Speaker 1>an argument in eleven years.

0:36:54.221 --> 0:36:57.942
<v Speaker 2>One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday

0:36:57.982 --> 0:37:02.062
<v Speaker 2>and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link

0:37:02.062 --> 0:37:03.822
<v Speaker 2>in the show notes to get us in your ears

0:37:04.102 --> 0:37:06.821
<v Speaker 2>five days a week, and a huge thank you to

0:37:07.022 --> 0:37:08.622
<v Speaker 2>all our current subscribers.

0:37:15.022 --> 0:37:18.261
<v Speaker 1>George and Mark Clooney claim to have never argued in

0:37:18.302 --> 0:37:21.261
<v Speaker 1>their eleven years of marriage, and some people are mad

0:37:21.302 --> 0:37:24.462
<v Speaker 1>about it. He did an interview on CBS this morning

0:37:24.502 --> 0:37:26.782
<v Speaker 1>with astronaut Gale King, and here's what he said.

0:37:26.982 --> 0:37:29.062
<v Speaker 9>Anamal and I, you know, I remember we were here

0:37:29.062 --> 0:37:31.502
<v Speaker 9>with you once before, and remember he said we'd never

0:37:31.542 --> 0:37:32.782
<v Speaker 9>had an argument.

0:37:32.862 --> 0:37:33.462
<v Speaker 1>We still have it.

0:37:33.701 --> 0:37:36.102
<v Speaker 2>You still have it. No, we're trying to find something

0:37:36.142 --> 0:37:36.741
<v Speaker 2>to fight about.

0:37:38.261 --> 0:37:42.661
<v Speaker 6>But we're I think because I started so late with

0:37:42.781 --> 0:37:43.221
<v Speaker 6>them all.

0:37:43.382 --> 0:37:45.381
<v Speaker 2>I remember when you said you never get married, you'd

0:37:45.382 --> 0:37:47.261
<v Speaker 2>never have kids. Yes, now you're married and you have

0:37:47.422 --> 0:37:47.822
<v Speaker 2>What happened?

0:37:47.862 --> 0:37:48.661
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, what happened to me?

0:37:48.862 --> 0:37:49.222
<v Speaker 2>Yeah?

0:37:49.422 --> 0:37:51.701
<v Speaker 1>Maybe because she's one of the most successful human rights

0:37:51.781 --> 0:37:54.221
<v Speaker 1>lawyers in the world, he just doesn't try. But there

0:37:54.221 --> 0:37:57.342
<v Speaker 1>has been some predictable snark about this because it's the Internet,

0:37:57.422 --> 0:38:00.982
<v Speaker 1>with Guardian columnist Rachel Connolly writing, these are some of

0:38:01.022 --> 0:38:03.142
<v Speaker 1>the most beautiful people in the world. On top of this,

0:38:03.261 --> 0:38:06.102
<v Speaker 1>they are extremely rich. They can have houses and holidays

0:38:06.102 --> 0:38:08.862
<v Speaker 1>wherever they want, They can buy whatever clothes and dinners

0:38:08.862 --> 0:38:11.861
<v Speaker 1>they choose. What would you have to argue about if

0:38:11.862 --> 0:38:15.062
<v Speaker 1>you lived such a gilded existence? And she goes on

0:38:15.102 --> 0:38:17.221
<v Speaker 1>to say that arguments are part of life and that

0:38:17.701 --> 0:38:19.462
<v Speaker 1>of course they don't argue because they've got nothing to

0:38:19.542 --> 0:38:21.861
<v Speaker 1>argue about. She says, most of us, with our lump

0:38:21.902 --> 0:38:25.342
<v Speaker 1>and faces and bodies, our fragile bank balances, our bobbled

0:38:25.382 --> 0:38:29.102
<v Speaker 1>polyester clothing and our strained sleep schedules, argue with our

0:38:29.142 --> 0:38:33.221
<v Speaker 1>partners with some degree of regularity. Jesse, do you and

0:38:33.302 --> 0:38:35.542
<v Speaker 1>look I argue with each other about being unattractive and

0:38:35.582 --> 0:38:36.662
<v Speaker 1>wearing cheap clothes.

0:38:37.462 --> 0:38:39.462
<v Speaker 4>Then I resent that because I saw that headline and

0:38:39.502 --> 0:38:41.742
<v Speaker 4>I just went, we're not fight about being ugly. Ugly

0:38:41.781 --> 0:38:44.542
<v Speaker 4>people don't look at each other and be like your

0:38:44.822 --> 0:38:46.462
<v Speaker 4>face like we don't.

0:38:46.781 --> 0:38:49.982
<v Speaker 2>I'm sorry, Brent and I argue about being ugly. Literally,

0:38:49.982 --> 0:38:52.821
<v Speaker 2>we had a fight on the weekend when I was like,

0:38:53.302 --> 0:38:55.821
<v Speaker 2>I refuse to go to this thing with you if

0:38:55.902 --> 0:38:59.221
<v Speaker 2>you don't look better than this, like I literally did.

0:38:59.302 --> 0:38:59.861
<v Speaker 1>We had a fight.

0:39:00.102 --> 0:39:02.261
<v Speaker 2>I was like, put some shoes on, yeah, took your

0:39:02.261 --> 0:39:04.622
<v Speaker 2>shirt in, but wouldn't killing you to have a shave?

0:39:05.062 --> 0:39:05.861
<v Speaker 3>I do not.

0:39:06.221 --> 0:39:08.902
<v Speaker 2>I both think IMML and George are having this shots fired.

0:39:09.902 --> 0:39:12.542
<v Speaker 3>To the idea that rich people don't have problems. Now,

0:39:12.582 --> 0:39:15.062
<v Speaker 3>I think they absolutely have a couple.

0:39:14.781 --> 0:39:16.741
<v Speaker 1>Of things about them at the moment. They're not living

0:39:16.781 --> 0:39:19.661
<v Speaker 1>in the same city because he's on Broadway. That's why

0:39:19.661 --> 0:39:21.982
<v Speaker 1>he's dyed his hair. He also did say that Amal

0:39:22.062 --> 0:39:24.341
<v Speaker 1>hates it he's got black hair, a mother doesn't like

0:39:24.342 --> 0:39:25.942
<v Speaker 1>the hair. Sounds a bit like a fight to me,

0:39:26.622 --> 0:39:28.901
<v Speaker 1>But I think there is truth to the fact that

0:39:29.382 --> 0:39:33.542
<v Speaker 1>a lot of the friction that can lead to fights,

0:39:33.942 --> 0:39:36.822
<v Speaker 1>and they say that every couple has the same argument

0:39:37.261 --> 0:39:39.382
<v Speaker 1>for the duration of their relationship. They just have it

0:39:39.422 --> 0:39:43.062
<v Speaker 1>in different ways. You can certainly smooth out some of

0:39:43.102 --> 0:39:49.582
<v Speaker 1>that friction with cleaners, with nannies, with drivers, with not

0:39:49.822 --> 0:39:52.102
<v Speaker 1>having to you know, money is a big thing that

0:39:52.181 --> 0:39:53.142
<v Speaker 1>couples fight about.

0:39:53.221 --> 0:39:56.622
<v Speaker 2>Yes, this is logistics. It removes the logistic conversation.

0:39:56.982 --> 0:40:00.781
<v Speaker 4>But what I would like to unpack a little bit

0:40:00.822 --> 0:40:04.181
<v Speaker 4>is the definition of a fight. Because Lucra and I

0:40:04.221 --> 0:40:06.062
<v Speaker 4>have always said Lucra and I don't fight. We have

0:40:06.181 --> 0:40:09.062
<v Speaker 4>never raised our voices. We have never sorry, We've never

0:40:09.102 --> 0:40:11.661
<v Speaker 4>raised each other. We don't raise voices.

0:40:12.181 --> 0:40:12.742
<v Speaker 3>We don't.

0:40:13.462 --> 0:40:14.622
<v Speaker 2>It's looking startled.

0:40:16.022 --> 0:40:16.542
<v Speaker 3>We don't.

0:40:17.142 --> 0:40:20.181
<v Speaker 1>Actually doesn't surprise me. I've heard neither of you raise

0:40:20.221 --> 0:40:21.302
<v Speaker 1>your voices to anyone.

0:40:21.542 --> 0:40:26.542
<v Speaker 4>No, and then even like you like whisper the.

0:40:26.142 --> 0:40:29.022
<v Speaker 3>Stupid wearing that God, I hate you.

0:40:29.822 --> 0:40:32.622
<v Speaker 4>We don't do the not talking to each other thing

0:40:32.822 --> 0:40:34.221
<v Speaker 4>like I know that some couples like.

0:40:34.741 --> 0:40:36.462
<v Speaker 3>It doesn't mean that we don't argue.

0:40:36.542 --> 0:40:42.861
<v Speaker 1>We've just started that after all, where it is just

0:40:43.382 --> 0:40:45.782
<v Speaker 1>weaponar silence. But the thing is that I just forget.

0:40:47.342 --> 0:40:49.542
<v Speaker 1>I can't concentrate. I'm like, are we still not talking?

0:40:49.622 --> 0:40:51.501
<v Speaker 3>I can't be What is a fight?

0:40:52.142 --> 0:40:53.102
<v Speaker 2>What is a fight?

0:40:53.221 --> 0:40:53.781
<v Speaker 3>What's a fight.

0:40:53.862 --> 0:40:56.102
<v Speaker 2>It's a disagreement, right.

0:40:56.382 --> 0:40:58.822
<v Speaker 4>Disagreements like you have disagreements about what you want for dinner,

0:40:59.181 --> 0:40:59.701
<v Speaker 4>but like.

0:40:59.661 --> 0:41:04.062
<v Speaker 1>Whether we should summer in the lake coast hard if

0:41:04.062 --> 0:41:06.742
<v Speaker 1>there are other people that live in your house, it's harder.

0:41:06.781 --> 0:41:09.262
<v Speaker 1>It's harder to have sex, and it's harder to have fights.

0:41:09.701 --> 0:41:11.702
<v Speaker 1>They have there's always someone around.

0:41:11.822 --> 0:41:12.542
<v Speaker 3>We have your twins.

0:41:12.542 --> 0:41:14.661
<v Speaker 4>I'm sure their twins can be like rich people have

0:41:14.701 --> 0:41:18.862
<v Speaker 4>annoying kids. Rich people have a leak in their roof, right.

0:41:18.822 --> 0:41:20.301
<v Speaker 2>Well, yes, but they don't have to deal with it.

0:41:20.781 --> 0:41:23.622
<v Speaker 2>Gurus would tell you that it's not something to aspire to.

0:41:23.902 --> 0:41:25.741
<v Speaker 2>So the idea, like you know, it used to be.

0:41:25.781 --> 0:41:27.221
<v Speaker 2>I remember when I was growing up, it was like

0:41:27.221 --> 0:41:29.422
<v Speaker 2>there were some famous couples who've never spent a night apart,

0:41:29.422 --> 0:41:32.461
<v Speaker 2>and that was seen as the absolute pinnacle of like

0:41:32.982 --> 0:41:35.661
<v Speaker 2>you know, of togetherness is that they hate being a partner,

0:41:35.741 --> 0:41:38.622
<v Speaker 2>never apart. And this is similar the headlines around the

0:41:38.661 --> 0:41:41.821
<v Speaker 2>cloonies don't fight has been held up like if only

0:41:41.862 --> 0:41:44.142
<v Speaker 2>we could all be like them. But I think gurus

0:41:44.142 --> 0:41:46.542
<v Speaker 2>say you should fight, like you shouldn't fight. You shouldn't

0:41:46.542 --> 0:41:50.142
<v Speaker 2>insult each other, criticize each other, relentlessly. You shouldn't go

0:41:50.261 --> 0:41:53.821
<v Speaker 2>low and all those things, but you shouldn't tiptoe around

0:41:53.862 --> 0:41:56.701
<v Speaker 2>pretending everything's hunky dory all the time, because ultimately one

0:41:56.701 --> 0:41:57.942
<v Speaker 2>of your heads will fall.

0:41:57.701 --> 0:41:59.542
<v Speaker 3>Yes, which is maybe of conflict.

0:41:59.622 --> 0:42:02.942
<v Speaker 4>Maybe I consider that a discussion a discussion or an argument.

0:42:02.942 --> 0:42:05.142
<v Speaker 4>And we will have all the time, We'll have things

0:42:05.142 --> 0:42:07.861
<v Speaker 4>where we sit down and I go, especially since having

0:42:07.862 --> 0:42:09.941
<v Speaker 4>a baby, where you go, I feel like I'm.

0:42:09.862 --> 0:42:10.702
<v Speaker 3>Doing a little bit more.

0:42:11.261 --> 0:42:15.062
<v Speaker 4>Neither of us escalated. And I've been in relationships before

0:42:15.261 --> 0:42:18.622
<v Speaker 4>where I've been with an escalator or someone who isn't

0:42:18.661 --> 0:42:21.221
<v Speaker 4>listening or whatever, and I have felt either I raise

0:42:21.261 --> 0:42:22.862
<v Speaker 4>my voice or they raise their voice, and then I

0:42:22.902 --> 0:42:24.942
<v Speaker 4>felt to get really messy. And maybe that's what I

0:42:24.982 --> 0:42:25.782
<v Speaker 4>consider a files.

0:42:25.902 --> 0:42:29.502
<v Speaker 2>And I also think that there's something so the Cloonies. Famously,

0:42:29.822 --> 0:42:32.941
<v Speaker 2>George Clooney got married in his early fifties, I think right,

0:42:33.302 --> 0:42:35.901
<v Speaker 2>and for many years there was like a marriage watch

0:42:35.942 --> 0:42:38.261
<v Speaker 2>on Clooney. And he once made a bet, didn't He said,

0:42:38.261 --> 0:42:40.102
<v Speaker 2>I'm never gonna get married, oh kid, never gonna have

0:42:40.221 --> 0:42:43.542
<v Speaker 2>kids with Nicole Kidman. And obviously that was pre a

0:42:43.622 --> 0:42:46.062
<v Speaker 2>mile universe. But also there's something to be said for

0:42:46.102 --> 0:42:48.702
<v Speaker 2>the fact he probably knows himself pretty well by that point.

0:42:49.062 --> 0:42:52.702
<v Speaker 2>She's a very smart woman. If they've had relationships before

0:42:52.701 --> 0:42:55.422
<v Speaker 2>with as you described them, escalators, Jesse, and they don't

0:42:55.502 --> 0:42:57.781
<v Speaker 2>like it. Because some couples love fighting, they like, I mean,

0:42:58.022 --> 0:43:01.661
<v Speaker 2>not horrible fights, but they love the energy of it,

0:43:01.741 --> 0:43:04.181
<v Speaker 2>the excitement of it. And if you like that, that's great.

0:43:04.181 --> 0:43:06.181
<v Speaker 2>But if you hate that and you recoil from it,

0:43:06.422 --> 0:43:08.221
<v Speaker 2>then that's one of the things you're not looking for.

0:43:08.261 --> 0:43:10.181
<v Speaker 2>And when you're fifty four year old Clooney and you're

0:43:10.181 --> 0:43:13.462
<v Speaker 2>picking your glorious human rights lawyer, you're probably going as

0:43:13.502 --> 0:43:15.741
<v Speaker 2>she's going to be yelling at me about the fact

0:43:15.741 --> 0:43:18.142
<v Speaker 2>my toenails are ugly enough have to put shoes.

0:43:17.822 --> 0:43:20.221
<v Speaker 1>On, you know. I think that if there's good communication,

0:43:21.302 --> 0:43:23.662
<v Speaker 1>that is what you're talking about. If you've got someone

0:43:23.661 --> 0:43:27.221
<v Speaker 1>who is a bad communicator or who won't communicate with you,

0:43:28.022 --> 0:43:30.622
<v Speaker 1>that's really hard. That's where conflict lives. But if you

0:43:30.661 --> 0:43:33.821
<v Speaker 1>can talk and resolve things, you know.

0:43:33.902 --> 0:43:36.182
<v Speaker 4>I do think too that George Clooney is a smart

0:43:36.181 --> 0:43:38.702
<v Speaker 4>man and he knows that. I mean, I'm not starting

0:43:38.701 --> 0:43:40.582
<v Speaker 4>any fight with a human rights I just think that

0:43:40.622 --> 0:43:42.142
<v Speaker 4>she's going to win. Every time, So he's like, I

0:43:42.261 --> 0:43:43.062
<v Speaker 4>back down side.

0:43:43.701 --> 0:43:45.781
<v Speaker 2>I've heard whispers that people think he's going to run.

0:43:45.982 --> 0:43:49.341
<v Speaker 2>Is he going to run Clooney for president? I've heard whispers.

0:43:49.542 --> 0:43:51.742
<v Speaker 1>I think it would make a lot of sense because

0:43:51.741 --> 0:43:54.142
<v Speaker 1>the Democrats are in all sorts of trouble.

0:43:54.181 --> 0:43:55.781
<v Speaker 3>Remember when it was going to be so I got

0:43:55.862 --> 0:43:56.301
<v Speaker 3>left to do.

0:43:56.382 --> 0:43:57.821
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, she doesn't want to do it, but I can

0:43:57.862 --> 0:43:59.381
<v Speaker 1>imagine that he'd like to kick that off.

0:44:00.622 --> 0:44:01.781
<v Speaker 3>Gay or King could give it a go.

0:44:01.982 --> 0:44:04.781
<v Speaker 7>Yes, as girl, King would be great A loud us

0:44:04.902 --> 0:44:08.422
<v Speaker 7>thank you all for listening to our wide ranging show

0:44:08.462 --> 0:44:11.901
<v Speaker 7>today and to our fabulous team who've helped us put

0:44:11.902 --> 0:44:12.502
<v Speaker 7>it all together.

0:44:12.701 --> 0:44:14.542
<v Speaker 2>We're going to be back in your ears tomorrow. Takes

0:44:14.542 --> 0:44:15.622
<v Speaker 2>a village to make a show.

0:44:15.701 --> 0:44:17.702
<v Speaker 1>Let us tell you out loud as it does.

0:44:18.661 --> 0:44:20.542
<v Speaker 2>We're going to be back in your ears tomorrow. And

0:44:20.661 --> 0:44:26.781
<v Speaker 2>if you're in Perth, in your eyes on Thursday night byey.

0:44:26.181 --> 0:44:29.462
<v Speaker 1>Shout out to any Muma Maya subscribers listening. If you

0:44:29.582 --> 0:44:31.942
<v Speaker 1>love the show and want to support us as well,

0:44:32.142 --> 0:44:34.542
<v Speaker 1>subscribing to Mom and Maya is the very best way

0:44:34.582 --> 0:44:36.661
<v Speaker 1>to do so. There is a link in the episode

0:44:36.661 --> 0:44:37.102
<v Speaker 1>description