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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. What are we talking about?

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Speaker 2: We're talking about cajeggs, free range eggs, organic eggs, regular

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Speaker 2: or large? Are we talking about brain fed eggs, barnlaid

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Speaker 2: vegetarian eggs, hormone free eggs? What about omega and rich

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Speaker 2: This is a very hard question.

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Speaker 1: Are we talking about Cadbury cream eggs? Yes, because I

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Speaker 1: know how much they cost. I can't believe how much that.

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Speaker 3: Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia out loud.

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Speaker 2: It's what women are actually talking about. On Monday, the

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Speaker 2: twenty eighth of April, I'm Holly Wainwright and we are

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Speaker 2: revving up for a big week. We were just talking

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Speaker 2: about Jesse Sweat Patches.

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Speaker 1: On the road again. We're getting on the road. We'll

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Speaker 1: be in Perth in just a couple of days for

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Speaker 1: the first night of our tour.

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Speaker 4: Our live tour proportion is maya between how much you

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Speaker 4: have thought talked about contributed to cost student's outfits on

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Speaker 4: stage and how much you've actually thought about the content.

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Speaker 1: I've been working on our outfits for weeks but it

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Speaker 1: was only just a couple of days ago that I

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Speaker 1: was like, I probably should look at the script. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: and I had no idea what we were doing in

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Speaker 1: the show.

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Speaker 2: She also had a major break through costume related breaks. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I liked moment, so perf You're in for a treat.

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Speaker 2: So all the out louders who are coming to the show,

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Speaker 2: I'm Holly Wayne right, I already.

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Speaker 1: Said that, I'm me a Friedman. And also thanks to

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Speaker 1: Nivia Sellula for supporting us on this tour.

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Speaker 3: I am Jesse Stevens and on the show today.

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Speaker 2: Is there a right way to tell your partner that

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Speaker 2: you're into someone else? What if you met that other person?

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Speaker 2: In front of the world on reality TV? Welcome to

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Speaker 2: JoJo's Ciua's Weekend. Also the Price of Eggs and Elaspink

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Speaker 2: Culture War. Some highlights and low lights from the Leader's

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Speaker 2: Debate you probably didn't watch. George Clooney says he's never

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Speaker 2: found a reason to have an argument with his gorgeous,

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Speaker 2: genius wife, and we would like to pick a fight

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Speaker 2: with him about it and the tragic a virginiay free

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Speaker 2: and whether there are any lessons to be learned. But first, hey, everyone.

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Speaker 5: I'm Jared and one of the directors of Kangala Wildlife Rescue.

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Speaker 6: Hi, I'm Lisa.

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Speaker 7: I'm also one of the directors here at Kangala Wildlife Rescue.

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Speaker 5: Were so excited yesterday to be able to release the

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Speaker 5: information that Valerie has been secured. She's safe and sound

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Speaker 5: after what was a roller coaster ride. It was a

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Speaker 5: long tough battle, it was, wasn't.

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Speaker 2: It, Guys.

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Speaker 1: I just want to actually take the show over and

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Speaker 1: just talk about this topic today because Valerie the feral

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Speaker 1: sausage dog has been captured alive on Kangaroo Island after

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Speaker 1: running wild for five hundred and twenty nine days.

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Speaker 3: Should I'm missing in twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 1: Now, there's a lot of nouns in that headline, so

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Speaker 1: I'm going to unpack it for you in case you

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Speaker 1: haven't been following Valerie's story. The voices you just heard

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Speaker 1: were the two people who run Kangala Rescue. They're a

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Speaker 1: nonprofit animal rescue organization who have been involved with this rescue.

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Speaker 1: What happened is that back in November twenty three, as

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Speaker 1: you say, Jesse, Valerie, who weighs less than four kilos,

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Speaker 1: she's a miniature ducks on, so there's like an inch

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Speaker 1: clearance between her little tummy and the ground. Such little

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Speaker 1: legs couldn't go up steps, I would say. Anyway, she

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Speaker 1: went to Kangaroo Island with her owners for a camping trip.

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Speaker 1: Wouldn't think of taking my dog on a camping trip.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we take our dog campaign for you.

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Speaker 1: Actually, Okay, she escaped her pen. She got a bit

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Speaker 1: spooked and she ran into the bush and they searched

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Speaker 1: for five days. She was very much a lapdog. Her

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Speaker 1: owners are called Josh and Georgia. She'd never been away

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Speaker 1: from Georgia. She was just teeny tiny and after five

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Speaker 1: days they had to go home. They went back to

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Speaker 1: the mainland and kind of grieved their little.

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Speaker 4: Really, they were like, maybe Valerie got bitten by a snake.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, things could have happened.

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Speaker 1: They were like, Valerie is not a rough and tumble

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Speaker 1: dog who's going to survive. Well, she's not working dog.

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Speaker 1: She's a little privileged dog. Nearly a year later, Valerie

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Speaker 1: was sighted a little sausage dog with a pink collar,

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Speaker 1: fourteen kilometers away from where she went missing. That's when

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Speaker 1: Kangala Rescue got involved and the search for Valerie involved

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Speaker 1: over one thousand volunteer hours and more than five thousand

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Speaker 1: kilometers traveled by volunteers in private vehicles. There was deployment

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Speaker 1: and monitoring of cameras and traps and uses of all

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Speaker 1: kinds of technology to successfully trap her. What they ended

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Speaker 1: up doing it was amazing. They built this kind of

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Speaker 1: large pen. They got valerie z owners to send them.

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Speaker 2: T shirts of George's that had her.

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Speaker 1: Smell, and Valerie's toys and her favorite foods, and they

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Speaker 1: put it in and every few days she'd come and

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Speaker 1: she'd hang out there, and they had all cameras, but

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Speaker 1: they couldn't work out how to automatically close the door,

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Speaker 1: and then she'd leave, and sometimes she wouldn't come back

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Speaker 1: for a while, and they were watching her for months.

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Speaker 1: They would watch this happen, and they knew that they

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Speaker 1: didn't want to startle her. They had to be careful.

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Speaker 2: They had to also.

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Speaker 1: Not accidentally capture other wildlife. So eventually, on the weekend

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Speaker 1: they closed the door, they got Valerie, and I swear

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Speaker 1: I followed every step of this. I want a live

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Speaker 1: stream of the reunion when Valerie is integrated back with

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Speaker 1: her owners. What they said, which is interesting, is that

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Speaker 1: when a dog is lost. After about half an hour.

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Speaker 1: An hour when it works out that it's lost and

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Speaker 1: that it's not temporary, it flicks from domestic animal to

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Speaker 1: survival mode and it's like a whole other level that

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Speaker 1: it goes to. She's been in survival mode for all

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Speaker 1: of this time, and they think that she survived on

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Speaker 1: damn water and a diet of roadkill and native animals,

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Speaker 1: lots of resources apparently, but she evaded eagles and snakes

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Speaker 1: and all the elements. It's a great Australian story.

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Speaker 2: I can't underestimate a dash und. I had a friend

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Speaker 2: who has managed a dashund and one day that dashund

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Speaker 2: took out all that pat chickens, all of them.

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Speaker 1: Are you kidding?

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Speaker 2: I am not kicking such a little man. You imagine

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Speaker 2: the scene they walked into when they came back, and

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Speaker 2: just a very guilty and feathery dash und. They can

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Speaker 2: be really tough little buggers. And I wonder think about

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Speaker 2: all the stories Valerie has from her Oh, if she

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Speaker 2: could speak nearly two years on the lamb, she is

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Speaker 2: probably she's gonna go home. She's turning her nose up

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Speaker 2: at the fancy of my dog food. She really is.

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Speaker 4: See how rescue chili we think is part sausage. She

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Speaker 4: barely survives the park, she.

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Speaker 3: Has no instincts. She gets spooked by a pigeon.

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Speaker 1: But you don't know that that's only because of the

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Speaker 1: lifestyle that she's grown accustomed to. You you don't know

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Speaker 1: how long she was on the street.

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Speaker 4: For If I was taken bet so, I would not

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Speaker 4: think that she was gonna it's for me as well.

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Speaker 4: This story is about the fact.

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Speaker 3: Her name is Valerie.

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Speaker 4: I think that's something we need to acknowledge because it's

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Speaker 4: and it's not val It's Valerie.

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Speaker 3: Doesn't sound like she's gonna make it.

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Speaker 1: And yet Valerie for the win.

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Speaker 2: As someone who's lost a dog, this is one of

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Speaker 2: those stories of hope that will be pasted around those

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Speaker 2: lost dog Facebook groups. Four years.

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Speaker 4: All I've thought about this weekend other than Valerie is

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Speaker 4: Jojo sewa her former partner kath Ebbs, and the moral

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Speaker 4: quandary of what to do when you fall for someone else.

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Speaker 1: Allow me to explain, this is a huge story.

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Speaker 3: It's a huge story Jojo Siwah.

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Speaker 1: But some people will know nothing about it, not even

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Speaker 1: Jojo sewats.

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Speaker 4: I'm so sorry for them. And that's why we're here.

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Speaker 4: Jojo Sewah of Dance Mum's fame. She appeared on the

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Speaker 4: reality TV show for the first time at the age

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Speaker 4: of twelve, announced about eighteen months ago that she identified

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Speaker 4: as a lesbian. Right.

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Speaker 3: And then in November last.

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Speaker 4: Year, Jojo was in Australia for the TikTok Awards and

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Speaker 4: she met our very own Kath Ebbs.

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Speaker 1: I hadn't heard of kaf but just back on Jojo

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Speaker 1: for a second. I didn't watch Dance Mums, but I

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Speaker 1: seem to know her from her bows or something.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and there'll be a certain cohort of parents who

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Speaker 2: remember being nagged for JoJo's bows. I am one of them.

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Speaker 2: So she became this huge icon of having these big

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Speaker 2: hair bows and you could buy them online and they

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Speaker 2: spawned many imitators. If you didn't couldn't get hands on

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Speaker 2: JoJo's bows, you could get a fake Jojo. She would

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Speaker 2: have made a pretty penny from those boats.

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Speaker 1: She did.

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Speaker 4: And then she's also had this like rising music career. Recently,

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Speaker 4: she had a song named Karma That's gone. She's big

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Speaker 4: on TikTok right anyway, goes to the TikTok Awards, meets Kath.

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Speaker 4: Kath is an actor, presenter, podcast content creator, and the

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Speaker 4: pair quickly fell in love. Fast forward to Celebrity Big

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Speaker 4: Brother UK, where Jojo enters as a contestant, and there

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Speaker 4: she meets Chris Hughes. He is a former contestant of

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Speaker 4: Love Ireland. I don't know Chris. You don't know Chris.

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Speaker 2: No one kesna.

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Speaker 1: The coverage I'd read about Jojo and Celebrity Big Brother

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Speaker 1: is that Mickey Rourke was in the house. Mickey the

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Speaker 1: famous eighties celebrity nine and a half weeks with Kimbassenger

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Speaker 1: jen X's will remember is now very strange, and he

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Speaker 1: ended up getting kicked out because he said some awfully

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Speaker 1: homophobic things to her, and Big Brother made him be okay.

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Speaker 4: So Jojo and Chris start spending a lot of time together.

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Speaker 4: He tickles her back, They do some whispering, they do

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Speaker 4: some holding of the hands, They sleep in bed together.

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Speaker 3: They cuddle.

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Speaker 1: Was there any dancing doner I.

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Speaker 4: Don't think so from what I've seen from the clips

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Speaker 4: I've seen, but if that was my partner, it would be.

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Speaker 4: At one point, she says to him, give me forty

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Speaker 4: eight hours, and a few people thought that meant when

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Speaker 4: we get out, let's have a conversation.

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Speaker 3: I'll chat to my partner, Da da da.

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Speaker 4: Now commentary blows up because viewers are thinking, hang on,

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Speaker 4: how must Kath feel about all of this?

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Speaker 2: Now?

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Speaker 4: Last week was a finale and Kath flew from Australia

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Speaker 4: to London to be there for Jojo. And here's what

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Speaker 4: Kath said in a recently uploaded and then deleted video

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Speaker 4: to TikTok.

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Speaker 8: I flew here and I went to the live show

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Speaker 8: to show up for my partner and support them in

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Speaker 8: their experience and and then obviously later on address my

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Speaker 8: feelings of like hurt and they like work through them,

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Speaker 8: like core relationships too. But before I could even get

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Speaker 8: back to the hotel, I it's actually crazy, went to

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Speaker 8: the after party with with my I guess now ex

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Speaker 8: crazy thing to say and was dumped in the party.

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Speaker 8: I was told that there are confused feelings there. Do

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Speaker 8: with that what you will, and that they had realized

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Speaker 8: in the house that I wasn't the person that they wanted.

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Speaker 1: Brutial.

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Speaker 2: What a mess.

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Speaker 4: So Cath has said that Jojo actually proposed before she

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Speaker 4: went into the house that they were very, very serious

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Speaker 4: and they're totally blind sided by what's happened, and two

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Speaker 4: camps have since emerged. One group says JoJo's behavior totally unacceptable.

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Speaker 4: She has this history of short relationships. She has humiliated Cath.

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Speaker 4: It's impulsive and it's mean and a total disregard for

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Speaker 4: someone who actually loves her. The other camp says she

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Speaker 4: is still only twenty one years old. She's figuring out

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Speaker 4: her sexual orientation. She has worked tirelessly since she was

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Speaker 4: a child. She barely knows who she is, and technically

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Speaker 4: shouldn't she. There was no kissing, there was no fun

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Speaker 4: blank that we know of. She waited until she had

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Speaker 4: the opportunity to break up with her partner. She did

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Speaker 4: the right thing and now she's free to do what

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Speaker 4: she likes. May I help me work out what I

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Speaker 4: think about JoJo's Big Brother UK scandal because I can't.

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Speaker 4: The ethics, the dilemma of it all is keeping me

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Speaker 4: up at night.

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Speaker 1: I actually don't think anything about it. It's just an

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Speaker 1: interesting story because there's nothing really to think. What we

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Speaker 1: think doesn't matter, and I know that you can probably

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Speaker 1: say that about anything we talk about.

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Speaker 2: The show.

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Speaker 3: We just talk about Valorie.

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Speaker 1: Actually three hours that was important. What I thought was

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Speaker 1: interesting that aspect of this that I found most interesting

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Speaker 1: was what Cas said about I thought that it was

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Speaker 1: just a fake reality TV show and it wasn't everything

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Speaker 1: that people saw with all of the flirting that went

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Speaker 1: on between Jojo and Chris was real. And the other

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Speaker 1: thing that I thought was interesting was that in the

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Speaker 1: house Jojo announced I'm actually not a lesbian. I've realized

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Speaker 1: that I'm queer and I'm not the ln LGTVQI anymore.

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Speaker 1: I'm the Q And isn't that great? And that's what's

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Speaker 1: a great thing about sexuality is that it's fluid. So

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Speaker 1: I found that was an interesting point because obviously, when

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Speaker 1: she initially came out as being gay, that was a

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Speaker 1: big deal because Dance Mum's the audience for Dance Mums

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Speaker 1: and the whole cast in Dance Moms, that's a pretty

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Speaker 1: conservative world. And being a child star in that world

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Speaker 1: and also being a child and then growing up with

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Speaker 1: all the bows and stuff, and she did perform a

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Speaker 1: very sort of stereotypical femininity, you know, when she was

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Speaker 1: on the show and afterwards, and so that was a

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Speaker 1: huge deal. And now she's like, oh, well, maybe that's

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Speaker 1: not what I am. Maybe I'm actually queer, and the

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Speaker 1: implication being is that she had feelings for a man,

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Speaker 1: and I like that. You know, sexuality can be fluid.

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Speaker 2: You don't know.

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Speaker 1: You don't have to label yourself and put that in

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Speaker 1: a box and lock that box away.

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Speaker 3: Holly, do you think that what Jojo did was wrong?

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Speaker 3: Or did she do the right thing?

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Speaker 1: She didn't do anything.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't wrong. But I do have a lot of

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Speaker 2: empathy for cath because watching your partner flirt with someone

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Speaker 2: else is heart right. And I'm sure many of us

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Speaker 2: can think of times where we might have over a

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Speaker 2: course of our lives. We might have been at a party,

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Speaker 2: we might have been at a work thing and we're like,

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Speaker 2: you looked very cozy with so and so, and our

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Speaker 2: partner would say, oh no, we're just there's nothing. And

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Speaker 2: this isn't the first time that someone has fallen in

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Speaker 2: love and inverted comments. We don't know that that's what's

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Speaker 2: happened here, but had head turned on big brother. It's

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Speaker 2: a very intense situation. You're all living together twenty four

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Speaker 2: to seven. I can imagine how tempting it would be

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Speaker 2: to want to find someone who would tickle your back,

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Speaker 2: if you know what I mean. But she obviously had

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Speaker 2: as sured caf and I'm sure that she absolutely believed it.

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Speaker 2: This is all fakery, it will all be silliness. Don't worry.

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Speaker 2: Our love is strong. I love is fine. She didn't

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Speaker 2: know that she was going to fall for what's his

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Speaker 2: face in there. But I think my empathy does really

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Speaker 2: go to Kath because I can just imagine watching that

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Speaker 2: and You're there going like, you go, girl, I hope

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Speaker 2: you're having a great time, and they were like, oh,

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Speaker 2: now they're rubbing each other's hands, and now they're putting

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Speaker 2: their head on his shoulder, and now they're It would

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Speaker 2: be very hard to watch.

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Speaker 4: It's one thing to watch someone you love flirt with

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Speaker 4: someone else, and it is another to watch someone you

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Speaker 4: love fall for someone else.

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Speaker 3: And I have watched that. I have been.

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Speaker 4: I remember being and this is school time or early

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Speaker 4: twenties or something about this period where you watch people

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Speaker 4: that you're in a relationship with, and I would see

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Speaker 4: them meet someone and I'd go, oh my god, oh

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Speaker 4: my god, they're actually falling for each other, like right

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Speaker 4: in front of me.

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Speaker 2: But we're not right for each other.

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Speaker 3: You too a right for you to a right for

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Speaker 3: each other.

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Speaker 4: But I think I'm right for you, but I think

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Speaker 4: you've just found someone better. Like it's the most terrific,

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Speaker 4: confronting experience. But I did think Jojo is me when

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Speaker 4: I went to UNI. And that's why I find this

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Speaker 4: story interesting is because it's about celebrity big brother. And

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Speaker 4: it's not about celebrity big brother. It's about the intensity

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Speaker 4: of some environments. So whether it's work, or whether it's

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Speaker 4: a holiday, or whether it's a conference or whatever, where

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Speaker 4: you get adults in a closed environment, whether or not

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Speaker 4: they're in relationships. I went to UNI and I was

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Speaker 4: in a long term relationship and I was thrust into

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Speaker 4: this new world and I just went, I have outgrown

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Speaker 4: my old self. That's how it felt, and I ended

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Speaker 4: that relationship because that's what you're to do. But some

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Speaker 4: of this commentary, which I agree with, is that emotional

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Speaker 4: cheating is more painful than physical cheating. Would it have

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Speaker 4: been less painful if Jojo just went kissed whatever and

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Speaker 4: they weren't feelings. But what would be so sickening to

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Speaker 4: watch is like this connection developed.

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Speaker 1: Cath kept saying how humiliated they felt. So there's that

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Speaker 1: whole extra element to it.

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Speaker 2: And that's not nothing, right because when this has happened

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Speaker 2: before on reality TV, when you're the one who's going

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Speaker 2: in there and you want your back tickled, you're thinking

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Speaker 2: about your you know, your feelings, obviously, but you should

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Speaker 2: also remember that your partner is watching this like.

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Speaker 3: That is a lot and that's the thing.

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Speaker 4: The rest of us got to do this privately and

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Speaker 4: clumsily at twenty one in a club or at a

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Speaker 4: campus or whatever, and Jojo, by the nature of her

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Speaker 4: bizarre life, just did this on international television and it's

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Speaker 4: a completely different thing, and it would compound the pain

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Speaker 4: that Cath feels.

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Speaker 1: But what happens next, I think CAF is going to

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Speaker 1: be very popular. I think there are going to be

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Speaker 1: a lot of people sliding into their dms, I think

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Speaker 1: to help mend their broken heart. I think Jojo might

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Speaker 1: have over yes cooked this a little because Chris, who's

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Speaker 1: eleven years older than her, he's thirty two. He's given

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Speaker 1: quite a few interviews while he's like, yeah, I love

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Speaker 1: her as a friend and I just it was an

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Speaker 1: amazing time in the house. He's also done more reality

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Speaker 1: TV than her, so I think he's more understanding of

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Speaker 1: the transient nature.

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Speaker 2: There could be legs in them as a couple for

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Speaker 2: a while, though, in terms of publicity wise, now that

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Speaker 2: Kath has told everyone what happened, or at least their

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Speaker 2: understanding of what happened, Jojo in a way has been

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Speaker 2: given permission that if she and Chris wanted to tell

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Speaker 2: their side of the story, they could also do that.

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Speaker 4: Right, I reckon that Jojo did the right thing, regardless

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Speaker 4: of whether Chris wants her or not. I think I've

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Speaker 4: had that where I've liked someone else who definitely didn't

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Speaker 4: like me back, but that was enough to indicate to

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Speaker 4: me that what I was in wasn't right. However, I

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Speaker 4: would not be surprised if in the next six months

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Speaker 4: Jojo regrets it and she goes, oh, actually, I got

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Speaker 4: totally distracted over here and I really missed this, and

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Speaker 4: she kind of goes back on it.

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Speaker 1: Imagine if every dumb relationship you had in your early

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Speaker 1: twenties became an Internet story and part of the news

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Speaker 1: cycle or part of the TikTok cycle for weeks.

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Speaker 4: It would be very Sending so much love to Cath,

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Speaker 4: I just hope that you get so many hotties love

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Speaker 4: to cutting into those dms.

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Speaker 1: I think they're great.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: On Friday, forty one year old Virginia Jeffrey died by suicide.

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Speaker 4: Geffrey was publicly known as accusing Jeffrey Epstein, and Prince

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Speaker 4: Andrew of sexual abuse. She pursued criminal and civil actions

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Speaker 4: against Epstein and Galaine Maxwell. After suing Maxwell for defamation,

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Speaker 4: she received a settlement in twenty seventeen. Then she sued

380
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Speaker 4: Prince Andrew in civil court, which was settled in twenty

381
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Speaker 4: twenty two. Prince Andrew paid her an undisclosed amount, a

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Speaker 4: significant portion of which went her charity. Just weeks ago,

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Speaker 4: Jeffrey posted from a hospital bed in Perth describing how

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Speaker 4: she'd been involved in a bus crash and had four

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Speaker 4: days to live. A representative later said that post was

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Speaker 4: a mistake, intended to be shared to a private page,

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Speaker 4: and six days later Jeffrey was discharged from hospital. Then

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Speaker 4: came the news on Friday. This is such a tragic

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Speaker 4: ending to a tragic story. Can anything be learned from it?

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Speaker 2: There are advocates in the sexual abuse space who say

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Speaker 2: one of the things that we learned from it is

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Speaker 2: what a lifelong struggle it is to live with the

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Speaker 2: after effects of sexual abuse and the trauma associated with it.

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Speaker 2: I think one of the dangerous things about discussing this

395
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Speaker 2: story in that way, though, is that we never want

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Speaker 2: to be simplistic or make assumptions about why anyone would

397
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Speaker 2: end their life, right all the statistics and data that

398
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Speaker 2: we know, so that it's not a simple line. And

399
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Speaker 2: it was uncomfortable when we saw a lot of Virginia's face,

400
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Speaker 2: that image of her in the hospital bed all over

401
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Speaker 2: the media a few weeks ago. When you read those stories,

402
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Speaker 2: it was clear that she was very unwell and that

403
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Speaker 2: something very sad was happening, and it kind of felt

404
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Speaker 2: voyeuristic to be looking at that. One of the things

405
00:20:28,302 --> 00:20:30,821
Speaker 2: that is interesting about this particular case, though, because it

406
00:20:30,861 --> 00:20:35,421
Speaker 2: is so high profile, is some people are talking about

407
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Speaker 2: what it means for how we view her allegations and

408
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Speaker 2: how we view Prince Andrew's position denials of that right

409
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Speaker 2: because you know, there's sort of a little bit of

410
00:20:48,061 --> 00:20:52,821
Speaker 2: ghoulish commentary that has suggested that she was clearly so unwell,

411
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Speaker 2: bringing up issues of trust. And then there are others

412
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Speaker 2: also quite gaulish commentary in a way that's saying, well,

413
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Speaker 2: this maybe draws a line and allows Prince Andrew a

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Speaker 2: way back to respectability somehow. Both of those things I

415
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Speaker 2: think are probably overstated. I think that Prince Andrew's reputation

416
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Speaker 2: is beyond repair. I would suggest he was at the

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Speaker 2: Royal Family's Easter Sunday service, and he is, I mean,

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Speaker 2: he still exists. He's still out in the world, of course,

419
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Speaker 2: and some people are suggesting that this could be an

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Speaker 2: opportunity for him to make a statement and express his

421
00:21:27,742 --> 00:21:30,901
Speaker 2: sorrow and sadness. But I'm sure that that's actually the

422
00:21:30,982 --> 00:21:34,421
Speaker 2: last thing that Virginia Giffra's family would want is for

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Speaker 2: him to insert himself into this in any way. Certainly

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Speaker 2: what they feel from the statements that they've made, their

425
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Speaker 2: words were in the end, the toll of abuse is

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Speaker 2: so heavy that it became unbearable for Virginia to handle

427
00:21:46,302 --> 00:21:49,302
Speaker 2: its weight. And just the sorrow and sadness that they

428
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Speaker 2: must feel unimaginable.

429
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Speaker 1: It's so tragic. She had three kids, she was forty

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Speaker 1: one and lived in Australia for a lot of the

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Speaker 1: last decades of her life. What was notable in the

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Speaker 1: last few weeks, when I think everybody felt unsettled seeing

433
00:22:05,581 --> 00:22:08,022
Speaker 1: those photos and the coverage of it, and then the

434
00:22:08,061 --> 00:22:12,661
Speaker 1: speculation about the accident that didn't really happen clearly, as

435
00:22:12,702 --> 00:22:15,222
Speaker 1: you say, oh, she was unwell, but there was a sense,

436
00:22:15,262 --> 00:22:17,462
Speaker 1: and there were some horrible things said on social media

437
00:22:17,462 --> 00:22:20,262
Speaker 1: by some of Andrew's supporters that he was going to

438
00:22:20,302 --> 00:22:23,781
Speaker 1: be vindicated, and that him saying that he I mean,

439
00:22:23,782 --> 00:22:26,061
Speaker 1: he can't deny that he knew and was friendly with

440
00:22:26,141 --> 00:22:28,941
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein and troubled with him and stayed in his house,

441
00:22:29,262 --> 00:22:33,942
Speaker 1: but he denied the specificity of the case against him

442
00:22:34,061 --> 00:22:37,821
Speaker 1: with Virginia Jeffrey's accusations. Now that was settled out of court,

443
00:22:38,502 --> 00:22:41,262
Speaker 1: and as part of that settlement, in which she's rumored

444
00:22:41,302 --> 00:22:46,582
Speaker 1: to have received a financial payout that was significant, she

445
00:22:46,702 --> 00:22:50,901
Speaker 1: wasn't allowed to speak about it anymore, which is both

446
00:22:50,942 --> 00:22:54,661
Speaker 1: good and bad in terms of she was gagged essentially

447
00:22:54,821 --> 00:22:56,942
Speaker 1: in exchange for that money. It's a pretty common thing

448
00:22:56,982 --> 00:22:59,542
Speaker 1: and you've got to make some really tough decisions. But

449
00:22:59,821 --> 00:23:02,742
Speaker 1: now it's interesting the idea of it being a line

450
00:23:02,861 --> 00:23:06,222
Speaker 1: under this case for him, in that you can now

451
00:23:06,262 --> 00:23:09,101
Speaker 1: say all kinds of things about her because you can't

452
00:23:09,101 --> 00:23:13,902
Speaker 1: defame that dead. But I think it bars any redemption

453
00:23:14,061 --> 00:23:16,542
Speaker 1: arc for him because there was a sense that and

454
00:23:16,581 --> 00:23:18,421
Speaker 1: everyone said this was very naive, that he could go

455
00:23:18,502 --> 00:23:22,621
Speaker 1: away and just maybe do charity work and quietly reappear.

456
00:23:23,381 --> 00:23:24,422
Speaker 2: But he's been.

457
00:23:24,262 --> 00:23:27,621
Speaker 1: Involved in other scandals. There was another Chinese by scandal.

458
00:23:28,022 --> 00:23:31,181
Speaker 1: He hasn't showered himself in glory since this happened. He

459
00:23:31,222 --> 00:23:34,382
Speaker 1: will never be able to acquit himself of these charges

460
00:23:34,422 --> 00:23:37,061
Speaker 1: and of this speculation because she's not around.

461
00:23:37,341 --> 00:23:39,741
Speaker 2: I was thinking about that when we were researching this today,

462
00:23:40,222 --> 00:23:43,902
Speaker 2: and the fact that his disappearance, as it were, is right.

463
00:23:44,422 --> 00:23:47,622
Speaker 2: But then there's another bit of me that's like he's

464
00:23:47,661 --> 00:23:50,502
Speaker 2: sort of being paid by his brother really to just

465
00:23:50,581 --> 00:23:53,542
Speaker 2: live a nice life and shut up. You know, it's

466
00:23:53,581 --> 00:23:56,061
Speaker 2: not actually a very admirable way to live if he

467
00:23:56,101 --> 00:23:58,701
Speaker 2: did really feel Because the thing is what we have

468
00:23:58,702 --> 00:24:01,182
Speaker 2: to remember, he's always absolutely denied his involvement, and that's

469
00:24:01,942 --> 00:24:05,621
Speaker 2: his absolute prerogative. But for Virginia Giffrey, she did not

470
00:24:05,702 --> 00:24:08,262
Speaker 2: only allege that she was abused by him. She says

471
00:24:08,262 --> 00:24:10,542
Speaker 2: she was passed around by EPs in circle. The fact

472
00:24:10,581 --> 00:24:12,221
Speaker 2: that she suffered abuse at the hands of rich and

473
00:24:12,262 --> 00:24:16,101
Speaker 2: powerful men is not under question. Actually, what was never

474
00:24:16,141 --> 00:24:18,061
Speaker 2: proven is whether or not Prince Andrew it was one

475
00:24:18,061 --> 00:24:20,782
Speaker 2: of those people, and so there's a bit of me

476
00:24:20,861 --> 00:24:24,021
Speaker 2: that's like, it's right that he should be disappeared, as

477
00:24:24,061 --> 00:24:26,782
Speaker 2: it were, by the royal family, but it's also like

478
00:24:27,222 --> 00:24:31,861
Speaker 2: it's just a very ignoble weak end to a.

479
00:24:34,222 --> 00:24:34,462
Speaker 1: Justice.

480
00:24:34,661 --> 00:24:39,101
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it teaches us something to about their compassion.

481
00:24:39,742 --> 00:24:42,182
Speaker 4: We owed her a few weeks ago, and there wasn't

482
00:24:42,182 --> 00:24:45,141
Speaker 4: a lot of compassion in the commentary because how we

483
00:24:45,182 --> 00:24:48,741
Speaker 4: see mental health is still something I don't think a

484
00:24:48,861 --> 00:24:52,022
Speaker 4: lot of us know how to talk about properly, and

485
00:24:52,381 --> 00:24:56,061
Speaker 4: I think that we're still developing a language and framework

486
00:24:56,302 --> 00:25:00,302
Speaker 4: by which to understand trauma and the brain and what

487
00:25:00,462 --> 00:25:02,821
Speaker 4: it does to a life. And as you say, Holly,

488
00:25:03,222 --> 00:25:05,582
Speaker 4: that's not to say that one cannot flourish, and there

489
00:25:05,621 --> 00:25:08,622
Speaker 4: is in hope, There absolutely is, But it's also worth

490
00:25:08,661 --> 00:25:13,142
Speaker 4: acknowledging that child sex abuse comes with a mortality rate.

491
00:25:13,341 --> 00:25:16,222
Speaker 4: If you were to be diagnosed with something and they said,

492
00:25:16,621 --> 00:25:18,782
Speaker 4: you know this is going to impact your life expectancy,

493
00:25:18,782 --> 00:25:22,661
Speaker 4: then we understand that are something more straightforward. But for

494
00:25:22,782 --> 00:25:25,981
Speaker 4: this and then the complication of the life lived in

495
00:25:26,022 --> 00:25:29,701
Speaker 4: between is just something that we're still getting our head around.

496
00:25:29,942 --> 00:25:33,061
Speaker 4: And I think of those images of her and how

497
00:25:33,061 --> 00:25:35,381
Speaker 4: the media didn't know what to do with it. We

498
00:25:35,502 --> 00:25:37,581
Speaker 4: now see it through the prism of that was a

499
00:25:37,621 --> 00:25:40,581
Speaker 4: woman in an enormous amount of pain, regardless of how

500
00:25:40,621 --> 00:25:44,341
Speaker 4: she was talking about it. It just makes it even more.

501
00:25:44,182 --> 00:25:47,701
Speaker 2: Tragic in a moment, the new gotcha question for our

502
00:25:47,702 --> 00:25:55,061
Speaker 2: political leaders that's almost impossible to answer. There are five

503
00:25:55,141 --> 00:25:59,302
Speaker 2: sleeps now until this mercifully dull federal election campaign comes

504
00:25:59,302 --> 00:26:01,501
Speaker 2: to a close. People are roundly saying it's been one

505
00:26:01,502 --> 00:26:03,702
Speaker 2: of the most boring elections ever, And to that I say,

506
00:26:03,782 --> 00:26:06,782
Speaker 2: thank god. Yeah, We've all seen what happens in exciting

507
00:26:06,821 --> 00:26:10,662
Speaker 2: elections in other parts of the world. I've already voted,

508
00:26:10,821 --> 00:26:13,381
Speaker 2: so a lot of Australians have already voted, and many

509
00:26:13,422 --> 00:26:15,782
Speaker 2: many more will have already voted before election day. No

510
00:26:15,782 --> 00:26:18,622
Speaker 2: one hangs around for the democracy sausage anymore. But if

511
00:26:18,621 --> 00:26:23,701
Speaker 2: you voted before last night's fourth leader's debate, you missed

512
00:26:23,782 --> 00:26:28,542
Speaker 2: two enormous things. One, no one knows the price of eggs.

513
00:26:29,061 --> 00:26:30,742
Speaker 2: It used to be that to prove how out of

514
00:26:30,821 --> 00:26:33,341
Speaker 2: touch a politician was, you asked them about milk. How

515
00:26:33,422 --> 00:26:35,302
Speaker 2: much is a pine of milk? We used to say,

516
00:26:35,742 --> 00:26:38,581
Speaker 2: Now it's eggs. But It's a very hard question to answer,

517
00:26:38,702 --> 00:26:40,981
Speaker 2: even for the keen bean assistants who have to like

518
00:26:41,061 --> 00:26:44,182
Speaker 2: prep the ministers with this, because what are we talking about?

519
00:26:44,182 --> 00:26:46,661
Speaker 2: Are we talking about cage eggs, free range eggs, organic eggs,

520
00:26:46,702 --> 00:26:49,381
Speaker 2: regular or large? Are we talking about grain fed eggs,

521
00:26:49,381 --> 00:26:53,861
Speaker 2: barn laid vegetarian eggs, hormone free eggs? What about omega enrichment?

522
00:26:54,262 --> 00:26:55,661
Speaker 2: This is a very hard question.

523
00:26:55,782 --> 00:26:57,942
Speaker 3: Are we talking about aldi or house farm exactly?

524
00:26:58,022 --> 00:27:02,261
Speaker 1: Are we talking about Cadbury cream eggs? I know how

525
00:27:02,341 --> 00:27:05,901
Speaker 1: much they cost. I can't believe how much. Tell me

526
00:27:05,982 --> 00:27:07,422
Speaker 1: how much actual eggs cost.

527
00:27:07,581 --> 00:27:10,101
Speaker 2: So they average out given all the things we just

528
00:27:10,141 --> 00:27:13,262
Speaker 2: talked about, they're somewhere around six to seven to eight dollars.

529
00:27:13,302 --> 00:27:14,142
Speaker 2: It depends right.

530
00:27:14,182 --> 00:27:16,141
Speaker 1: How much do you think it Cantree cream egg costs?

531
00:27:16,222 --> 00:27:18,622
Speaker 2: You tell me, maya between two dollars.

532
00:27:18,341 --> 00:27:20,821
Speaker 1: Fifty and three dollars thirty. But if you want the

533
00:27:20,942 --> 00:27:24,061
Speaker 1: ice cream, you can get a four pack for twelve dollars.

534
00:27:24,182 --> 00:27:26,542
Speaker 2: Somebody put this woman on the leader's to beate. She'd

535
00:27:26,742 --> 00:27:29,861
Speaker 2: nail it. Don't guess four, which isn't true for any

536
00:27:29,861 --> 00:27:32,022
Speaker 2: of these levels of eggs. And Albo had a couple

537
00:27:32,101 --> 00:27:35,022
Speaker 2: of goes, which reveal he's probably a free range kind

538
00:27:35,022 --> 00:27:35,302
Speaker 2: of guy.

539
00:27:35,381 --> 00:27:37,902
Speaker 4: Can I just offer a defense for not knowing the

540
00:27:37,942 --> 00:27:41,702
Speaker 4: prices of most things? I think that since we no

541
00:27:41,861 --> 00:27:47,341
Speaker 4: longer use cash and we are tapping willy nilly, I

542
00:27:47,341 --> 00:27:50,382
Speaker 4: think we have lost a bit of a sense of

543
00:27:50,422 --> 00:27:53,421
Speaker 4: how much things cost, and because of like click and collect.

544
00:27:53,422 --> 00:27:57,101
Speaker 4: And also I go into my local usually Audi chuck

545
00:27:57,141 --> 00:27:59,381
Speaker 4: fifteen things in and it's five hundred dollars, and I go,

546
00:27:59,462 --> 00:28:01,381
Speaker 4: that's a lot. I don't know if my eggs were

547
00:28:01,422 --> 00:28:03,302
Speaker 4: eighty five dollars or if that was just the milk.

548
00:28:03,821 --> 00:28:07,022
Speaker 4: And so I know that there are some families, in fact,

549
00:28:07,341 --> 00:28:11,061
Speaker 4: a significant portion of families who are budgeting every week

550
00:28:11,101 --> 00:28:12,382
Speaker 4: and who might know more.

551
00:28:12,422 --> 00:28:14,461
Speaker 3: But I do think it's difficult.

552
00:28:13,982 --> 00:28:17,941
Speaker 2: Hi, and I accept your defense accepted. However, given the

553
00:28:17,942 --> 00:28:20,621
Speaker 2: price of eggs is currently like a global story, like

554
00:28:20,661 --> 00:28:22,742
Speaker 2: Trump's always being asked about the price of eggs too,

555
00:28:23,061 --> 00:28:25,302
Speaker 2: I feel like you might have a few numbers in

556
00:28:25,302 --> 00:28:27,422
Speaker 2: your pocket, which I think the chaps did. And as

557
00:28:27,542 --> 00:28:29,341
Speaker 2: like Mia and her cream eggs, they were heading their

558
00:28:29,341 --> 00:28:32,902
Speaker 2: beds anyway, onto more important matters. One of the big

559
00:28:32,901 --> 00:28:35,421
Speaker 2: criticisms of this election is that there's not actually a

560
00:28:35,462 --> 00:28:38,662
Speaker 2: lot of difference between the major parties. They keep agreeing

561
00:28:38,661 --> 00:28:42,382
Speaker 2: to match each other's promises, match each other spends, But

562
00:28:42,542 --> 00:28:45,661
Speaker 2: this last week a culture gap is being wedged open

563
00:28:45,742 --> 00:28:49,502
Speaker 2: when it comes to acknowledgment of country addresses a public events.

564
00:28:49,822 --> 00:28:53,822
Speaker 2: At the debate, both leaders condemned the people who heckled

565
00:28:53,822 --> 00:28:56,782
Speaker 2: and booed Uncle Mark Brown when he delivered the Welcome

566
00:28:56,822 --> 00:29:00,582
Speaker 2: to Country at Melbourne's Shrine of Remembrance on Friday morning.

567
00:29:01,302 --> 00:29:04,422
Speaker 2: Those people were arrested. They were believed to be part

568
00:29:04,462 --> 00:29:07,382
Speaker 2: of far right neo Nazi groups, and both Stutton and

569
00:29:07,422 --> 00:29:11,422
Speaker 2: Albanesi said that level of disrespect absolutely no place, especially

570
00:29:11,422 --> 00:29:13,822
Speaker 2: on Amazac Day, but no place in our culture in general.

571
00:29:14,342 --> 00:29:17,262
Speaker 2: But the sentiment itself that there is a growing group

572
00:29:17,262 --> 00:29:19,502
Speaker 2: of Australians who would like to see the back of

573
00:29:19,542 --> 00:29:22,742
Speaker 2: welcome to Country and acknowledgment of country addresses at public

574
00:29:22,742 --> 00:29:26,142
Speaker 2: gatherings is one that has been seized on by Clive

575
00:29:26,182 --> 00:29:29,662
Speaker 2: Palmer's campaign and to a lesser extent by the Liberals.

576
00:29:29,902 --> 00:29:32,102
Speaker 2: This is what both leaders had to say about it

577
00:29:32,142 --> 00:29:33,261
Speaker 2: at last night's debate.

578
00:29:33,742 --> 00:29:36,062
Speaker 9: I think there is and people have said this to

579
00:29:36,102 --> 00:29:39,542
Speaker 9: me as we've moved across the country. There is a

580
00:29:39,661 --> 00:29:43,582
Speaker 9: sense across the community that it's overdone. For the opening

581
00:29:43,582 --> 00:29:47,262
Speaker 9: of Parliament fair enough, it's respectful to do. But for

582
00:29:48,102 --> 00:29:50,862
Speaker 9: the start of every meeting at work or the start

583
00:29:50,862 --> 00:29:53,342
Speaker 9: of a football game. I think a lot of Australians

584
00:29:53,342 --> 00:29:56,421
Speaker 9: think it's overdone and it cheapens the significance of what

585
00:29:56,462 --> 00:29:59,822
Speaker 9: it was meant to do. It divides the country. Not

586
00:29:59,902 --> 00:30:02,022
Speaker 9: this similar to Prime Minister, Yes.

587
00:30:02,422 --> 00:30:02,941
Speaker 2: Of the Prime Minister.

588
00:30:03,102 --> 00:30:06,542
Speaker 9: Prime Minister, you always have at your official events, have

589
00:30:06,661 --> 00:30:09,222
Speaker 9: been a lot of them, smoking ceremonies, welcome to country,

590
00:30:09,982 --> 00:30:12,182
Speaker 9: acknowledgement of traditional honors.

591
00:30:12,422 --> 00:30:16,062
Speaker 6: Well, from my perspective, it's a matter of respect. But

592
00:30:16,142 --> 00:30:20,062
Speaker 6: it's also of course up to the organizations that are

593
00:30:20,062 --> 00:30:22,941
Speaker 6: hosting an event of whether they have a welcome to

594
00:30:23,022 --> 00:30:26,182
Speaker 6: country or not. It's up to them, and people will

595
00:30:26,182 --> 00:30:28,782
Speaker 6: have different views and people are in toitle their views.

596
00:30:29,342 --> 00:30:32,542
Speaker 6: But we have a great privilege from my perspective, of

597
00:30:32,661 --> 00:30:36,421
Speaker 6: sharing this continent with the oldest continuous culture on earth,

598
00:30:36,822 --> 00:30:40,902
Speaker 6: and when I welcome international visitors to Parliament House, you

599
00:30:40,982 --> 00:30:43,142
Speaker 6: know what they want to see that culture.

600
00:30:43,342 --> 00:30:47,021
Speaker 2: What do we think about this debate in inverted commas

601
00:30:47,102 --> 00:30:50,062
Speaker 2: being brought up at this late stage of the election campaign.

602
00:30:50,342 --> 00:30:56,742
Speaker 4: I think that Dutton has some data about what Australians think.

603
00:30:57,182 --> 00:30:59,822
Speaker 4: News dot com and say what you like about that

604
00:30:59,862 --> 00:31:02,382
Speaker 4: particular audience. But they did a poll just over the

605
00:31:02,422 --> 00:31:05,262
Speaker 4: weekend and they polled fifty thousand Australians and sixty five

606
00:31:05,342 --> 00:31:08,862
Speaker 4: percent said they think welcome to country ceremonies should stop

607
00:31:08,902 --> 00:31:12,302
Speaker 4: completely right, And I know it's not a very official

608
00:31:12,342 --> 00:31:14,742
Speaker 4: poll and it's people on the internet who are anonymous.

609
00:31:14,902 --> 00:31:20,062
Speaker 4: Doesn't necessarily stand up, but I have sat at dinner tables,

610
00:31:20,702 --> 00:31:24,062
Speaker 4: especially across from people who work in the corporate sector,

611
00:31:24,582 --> 00:31:30,902
Speaker 4: who have said that they think that the acknowledgment of country,

612
00:31:30,942 --> 00:31:33,542
Speaker 4: which we should say, is very different to a welcome

613
00:31:33,542 --> 00:31:36,342
Speaker 4: to country. So a welcome to country is done by

614
00:31:36,582 --> 00:31:40,941
Speaker 4: an indigenous person, it is an official ceremony, there's official wording.

615
00:31:41,262 --> 00:31:45,302
Speaker 4: An acknowledgment of country is done by a white person

616
00:31:45,462 --> 00:31:48,622
Speaker 4: or someone who is not Indigenous, who's acknowledging the land

617
00:31:48,782 --> 00:31:51,502
Speaker 4: that they are currently on. And they've said that they've

618
00:31:51,542 --> 00:31:54,782
Speaker 4: sat in meetings and an acknowledgment of country has started

619
00:31:54,822 --> 00:31:56,502
Speaker 4: the meeting and then there might be twenty people on

620
00:31:56,542 --> 00:31:59,982
Speaker 4: the call from all over Australia and they go round

621
00:32:00,062 --> 00:32:03,262
Speaker 4: and all of them have to acknowledge, and they've said

622
00:32:03,542 --> 00:32:06,622
Speaker 4: that they think that's overkill the time and the performance

623
00:32:06,661 --> 00:32:09,822
Speaker 4: of it all. They think it's necessary at a football game,

624
00:32:09,862 --> 00:32:12,662
Speaker 4: at a conference, but when it's in the individualized, even

625
00:32:12,702 --> 00:32:15,582
Speaker 4: one on one meetings, they think there's something a little

626
00:32:15,622 --> 00:32:16,582
Speaker 4: bit performative about it.

627
00:32:16,661 --> 00:32:19,542
Speaker 3: Right. But on the other hand, I've.

628
00:32:19,382 --> 00:32:23,062
Speaker 4: Been watching this debate on fell over the weekend and

629
00:32:23,102 --> 00:32:26,661
Speaker 4: I keep thinking of Thomas Mayo and Megan Davis and

630
00:32:26,702 --> 00:32:30,981
Speaker 4: the dozens of Indigenous activists who worked tirelessly on the

631
00:32:31,022 --> 00:32:35,221
Speaker 4: Voice to Parliament, and when that came back as a no,

632
00:32:35,622 --> 00:32:41,022
Speaker 4: I think it emboldened those who want absolutely no recognition

633
00:32:41,142 --> 00:32:43,542
Speaker 4: and who want to pretend that this country wasn't colonized.

634
00:32:44,302 --> 00:32:47,582
Speaker 4: And remember the Liberal Party basically said at the time,

635
00:32:47,661 --> 00:32:49,661
Speaker 4: we don't support the Voice, but we're open to some

636
00:32:49,742 --> 00:32:52,902
Speaker 4: other form of recognition to that. I keep wondering, where

637
00:32:52,942 --> 00:32:53,222
Speaker 4: is it?

638
00:32:53,582 --> 00:32:54,021
Speaker 3: Where is it?

639
00:32:54,022 --> 00:32:55,742
Speaker 4: This is where we are, This is where we are,

640
00:32:55,782 --> 00:32:59,102
Speaker 4: a week out from an election where there are massive

641
00:32:59,182 --> 00:33:04,782
Speaker 4: issues to discuss, and we are talking about whether a

642
00:33:04,902 --> 00:33:10,142
Speaker 4: one minute acknowledgment of our history is worth it or not.

643
00:33:10,622 --> 00:33:13,542
Speaker 4: And remember too, the reason that acknowledgment of country and

644
00:33:13,582 --> 00:33:16,702
Speaker 4: welcome to Country exists is because there is no official

645
00:33:16,902 --> 00:33:20,421
Speaker 4: Indigenous recognition in our constitution and because for most of

646
00:33:20,462 --> 00:33:24,422
Speaker 4: our history we have literally erased indigenous existence. That's why

647
00:33:24,422 --> 00:33:27,542
Speaker 4: it happens at Anzac Day, because there were Indigenous diggers

648
00:33:27,582 --> 00:33:30,782
Speaker 4: who were written out of history until five minutes ago.

649
00:33:31,182 --> 00:33:34,302
Speaker 1: I thought it was really interesting and kind of surprising,

650
00:33:34,462 --> 00:33:38,461
Speaker 1: but also not that Dutton brought this up, or that

651
00:33:38,542 --> 00:33:43,222
Speaker 1: this came up in the debate, because it's been refreshingly

652
00:33:43,422 --> 00:33:47,542
Speaker 1: free of what's referred to often as culture wars issues

653
00:33:47,622 --> 00:33:51,661
Speaker 1: in this election, which is perhaps why we haven't heard

654
00:33:51,702 --> 00:33:53,981
Speaker 1: so much about it, because, as you say, it hasn't

655
00:33:54,022 --> 00:33:57,302
Speaker 1: been about the stuff that gets people riled up online

656
00:33:57,902 --> 00:34:00,102
Speaker 1: and so it hasn't really made the news cycle the

657
00:34:00,222 --> 00:34:03,421
Speaker 1: various policies. But as it gets down to the home straight,

658
00:34:03,582 --> 00:34:07,302
Speaker 1: I think that Dutton, who has really been challenged in

659
00:34:07,382 --> 00:34:10,181
Speaker 1: terms of being able to say, well either of them

660
00:34:10,222 --> 00:34:13,102
Speaker 1: what they stand for. Dutton has not had the cut

661
00:34:13,142 --> 00:34:15,982
Speaker 1: through that perhaps he hoped he would, and I think

662
00:34:16,022 --> 00:34:18,982
Speaker 1: he's trying to grasp on to any issue that's in

663
00:34:19,022 --> 00:34:21,062
Speaker 1: the new cycle, and it was in the new cycle

664
00:34:21,062 --> 00:34:25,102
Speaker 1: because of what happened with Anzac Day. It's such a

665
00:34:25,142 --> 00:34:29,941
Speaker 1: good point also that Elbow made about it's not mandatory.

666
00:34:30,102 --> 00:34:33,701
Speaker 1: There's no law that says you have to. Therefore we

667
00:34:33,741 --> 00:34:35,901
Speaker 1: don't need a law that says you don't have to.

668
00:34:36,542 --> 00:34:39,821
Speaker 1: Everybody gets to choose. And if it's taking up too

669
00:34:39,862 --> 00:34:42,582
Speaker 1: long in your meeting and the people don't feel that

670
00:34:42,622 --> 00:34:46,022
Speaker 1: it's something that they want to do, then talk about that.

671
00:34:46,261 --> 00:34:48,582
Speaker 1: But I don't object to it at any of the

672
00:34:48,622 --> 00:34:50,341
Speaker 1: events i'm at. I think it can be a really

673
00:34:50,342 --> 00:34:51,062
Speaker 1: beautiful theme.

674
00:34:51,221 --> 00:34:54,462
Speaker 2: I think it's worth acknowledging that across the country. On Friday,

675
00:34:54,582 --> 00:34:58,462
Speaker 2: when those people were shouting at Uncle Mark Brown, hundreds

676
00:34:58,542 --> 00:35:03,222
Speaker 2: and thousands of Australians were standing and respectfully, silently listening

677
00:35:03,661 --> 00:35:07,261
Speaker 2: to a welcome to country before paying their respects at

678
00:35:07,302 --> 00:35:10,661
Speaker 2: a dawn service. I don't think that this sort of

679
00:35:10,741 --> 00:35:13,661
Speaker 2: shouty line about I don't need to be welcome to

680
00:35:13,661 --> 00:35:16,942
Speaker 2: my country, which is what's in the Clive Palmarads, actually

681
00:35:17,022 --> 00:35:22,062
Speaker 2: has that much traction. It is a willful misunderstanding misrepresentation

682
00:35:22,142 --> 00:35:24,382
Speaker 2: of what a welcome to country is. You're actually being included,

683
00:35:24,462 --> 00:35:27,221
Speaker 2: not excluded, by a welcome to country, So it's a

684
00:35:27,261 --> 00:35:30,742
Speaker 2: willful misunderstanding and I would like to imagine that certainly

685
00:35:30,781 --> 00:35:34,142
Speaker 2: for kids like mine who have grown up with acknowledgments

686
00:35:34,142 --> 00:35:37,102
Speaker 2: and welcomes to country and you know, singing the national

687
00:35:37,261 --> 00:35:39,662
Speaker 2: anthem in language and all these things, it doesn't feel

688
00:35:39,741 --> 00:35:43,062
Speaker 2: strange or extreme or scary or any of the things

689
00:35:43,062 --> 00:35:46,462
Speaker 2: that I think we're sort of being whipped up to consider.

690
00:35:46,502 --> 00:35:47,102
Speaker 2: Maybe it does.

691
00:35:47,342 --> 00:35:49,062
Speaker 4: I just want to talk about the impact for a minute,

692
00:35:49,062 --> 00:35:51,142
Speaker 4: because what happened over the weekend too is that there

693
00:35:51,221 --> 00:35:55,181
Speaker 4: was some sort of alleged misunderstanding. There was an NRL game,

694
00:35:55,382 --> 00:35:59,102
Speaker 4: Melbourne Storm playing, and there was a welcome to country organized.

695
00:35:59,261 --> 00:36:02,181
Speaker 4: Then the organizer said, oh, wait, we don't want to

696
00:36:02,221 --> 00:36:06,022
Speaker 4: do one, and the Indigenous people who were there ready

697
00:36:06,062 --> 00:36:08,622
Speaker 4: to do it kind of were shocked by that, and

698
00:36:08,661 --> 00:36:10,701
Speaker 4: then they said, oh, there's an understanding. Actually we do

699
00:36:10,781 --> 00:36:12,941
Speaker 4: want you to and they ended up talking to each

700
00:36:12,942 --> 00:36:14,542
Speaker 4: other and going, no, we're not going to do it

701
00:36:14,542 --> 00:36:17,902
Speaker 4: because we feel really uncomfortable. The ABAC went and spoke

702
00:36:17,982 --> 00:36:20,902
Speaker 4: to some people who were at those ceremonies who are Indigenous,

703
00:36:21,261 --> 00:36:23,862
Speaker 4: and one man said, I will never attend an Anzac

704
00:36:23,902 --> 00:36:26,582
Speaker 4: Day service at the shrine again. And I think that

705
00:36:26,582 --> 00:36:29,861
Speaker 4: that's the loss here is that it has taken so

706
00:36:30,022 --> 00:36:35,221
Speaker 4: many years for a particular community to feel dignified, to

707
00:36:35,261 --> 00:36:37,781
Speaker 4: feel included. The person who suffered in that was a

708
00:36:37,781 --> 00:36:39,821
Speaker 4: person trying to give the welcome to country, and they

709
00:36:39,822 --> 00:36:42,781
Speaker 4: were humiliated, and they are within their rights to go.

710
00:36:42,822 --> 00:36:44,181
Speaker 4: I don't want to do that again. I don't want

711
00:36:44,221 --> 00:36:45,102
Speaker 4: to be put in that position.

712
00:36:46,181 --> 00:36:49,782
Speaker 1: After the break, shifting gears because we have some feedback

713
00:36:49,781 --> 00:36:51,741
Speaker 1: for the famous couple who claim that they haven't had

714
00:36:51,741 --> 00:36:53,382
Speaker 1: an argument in eleven years.

715
00:36:54,221 --> 00:36:57,942
Speaker 2: One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday

716
00:36:57,982 --> 00:37:02,062
Speaker 2: and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link

717
00:37:02,062 --> 00:37:03,822
Speaker 2: in the show notes to get us in your ears

718
00:37:04,102 --> 00:37:06,821
Speaker 2: five days a week, and a huge thank you to

719
00:37:07,022 --> 00:37:08,622
Speaker 2: all our current subscribers.

720
00:37:15,022 --> 00:37:18,261
Speaker 1: George and Mark Clooney claim to have never argued in

721
00:37:18,302 --> 00:37:21,261
Speaker 1: their eleven years of marriage, and some people are mad

722
00:37:21,302 --> 00:37:24,462
Speaker 1: about it. He did an interview on CBS this morning

723
00:37:24,502 --> 00:37:26,782
Speaker 1: with astronaut Gale King, and here's what he said.

724
00:37:26,982 --> 00:37:29,062
Speaker 9: Anamal and I, you know, I remember we were here

725
00:37:29,062 --> 00:37:31,502
Speaker 9: with you once before, and remember he said we'd never

726
00:37:31,542 --> 00:37:32,782
Speaker 9: had an argument.

727
00:37:32,862 --> 00:37:33,462
Speaker 1: We still have it.

728
00:37:33,701 --> 00:37:36,102
Speaker 2: You still have it. No, we're trying to find something

729
00:37:36,142 --> 00:37:36,741
Speaker 2: to fight about.

730
00:37:38,261 --> 00:37:42,661
Speaker 6: But we're I think because I started so late with

731
00:37:42,781 --> 00:37:43,221
Speaker 6: them all.

732
00:37:43,382 --> 00:37:45,381
Speaker 2: I remember when you said you never get married, you'd

733
00:37:45,382 --> 00:37:47,261
Speaker 2: never have kids. Yes, now you're married and you have

734
00:37:47,422 --> 00:37:47,822
Speaker 2: What happened?

735
00:37:47,862 --> 00:37:48,661
Speaker 5: Yeah, what happened to me?

736
00:37:48,862 --> 00:37:49,222
Speaker 2: Yeah?

737
00:37:49,422 --> 00:37:51,701
Speaker 1: Maybe because she's one of the most successful human rights

738
00:37:51,781 --> 00:37:54,221
Speaker 1: lawyers in the world, he just doesn't try. But there

739
00:37:54,221 --> 00:37:57,342
Speaker 1: has been some predictable snark about this because it's the Internet,

740
00:37:57,422 --> 00:38:00,982
Speaker 1: with Guardian columnist Rachel Connolly writing, these are some of

741
00:38:01,022 --> 00:38:03,142
Speaker 1: the most beautiful people in the world. On top of this,

742
00:38:03,261 --> 00:38:06,102
Speaker 1: they are extremely rich. They can have houses and holidays

743
00:38:06,102 --> 00:38:08,862
Speaker 1: wherever they want, They can buy whatever clothes and dinners

744
00:38:08,862 --> 00:38:11,861
Speaker 1: they choose. What would you have to argue about if

745
00:38:11,862 --> 00:38:15,062
Speaker 1: you lived such a gilded existence? And she goes on

746
00:38:15,102 --> 00:38:17,221
Speaker 1: to say that arguments are part of life and that

747
00:38:17,701 --> 00:38:19,462
Speaker 1: of course they don't argue because they've got nothing to

748
00:38:19,542 --> 00:38:21,861
Speaker 1: argue about. She says, most of us, with our lump

749
00:38:21,902 --> 00:38:25,342
Speaker 1: and faces and bodies, our fragile bank balances, our bobbled

750
00:38:25,382 --> 00:38:29,102
Speaker 1: polyester clothing and our strained sleep schedules, argue with our

751
00:38:29,142 --> 00:38:33,221
Speaker 1: partners with some degree of regularity. Jesse, do you and

752
00:38:33,302 --> 00:38:35,542
Speaker 1: look I argue with each other about being unattractive and

753
00:38:35,582 --> 00:38:36,662
Speaker 1: wearing cheap clothes.

754
00:38:37,462 --> 00:38:39,462
Speaker 4: Then I resent that because I saw that headline and

755
00:38:39,502 --> 00:38:41,742
Speaker 4: I just went, we're not fight about being ugly. Ugly

756
00:38:41,781 --> 00:38:44,542
Speaker 4: people don't look at each other and be like your

757
00:38:44,822 --> 00:38:46,462
Speaker 4: face like we don't.

758
00:38:46,781 --> 00:38:49,982
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, Brent and I argue about being ugly. Literally,

759
00:38:49,982 --> 00:38:52,821
Speaker 2: we had a fight on the weekend when I was like,

760
00:38:53,302 --> 00:38:55,821
Speaker 2: I refuse to go to this thing with you if

761
00:38:55,902 --> 00:38:59,221
Speaker 2: you don't look better than this, like I literally did.

762
00:38:59,302 --> 00:38:59,861
Speaker 1: We had a fight.

763
00:39:00,102 --> 00:39:02,261
Speaker 2: I was like, put some shoes on, yeah, took your

764
00:39:02,261 --> 00:39:04,622
Speaker 2: shirt in, but wouldn't killing you to have a shave?

765
00:39:05,062 --> 00:39:05,861
Speaker 3: I do not.

766
00:39:06,221 --> 00:39:08,902
Speaker 2: I both think IMML and George are having this shots fired.

767
00:39:09,902 --> 00:39:12,542
Speaker 3: To the idea that rich people don't have problems. Now,

768
00:39:12,582 --> 00:39:15,062
Speaker 3: I think they absolutely have a couple.

769
00:39:14,781 --> 00:39:16,741
Speaker 1: Of things about them at the moment. They're not living

770
00:39:16,781 --> 00:39:19,661
Speaker 1: in the same city because he's on Broadway. That's why

771
00:39:19,661 --> 00:39:21,982
Speaker 1: he's dyed his hair. He also did say that Amal

772
00:39:22,062 --> 00:39:24,341
Speaker 1: hates it he's got black hair, a mother doesn't like

773
00:39:24,342 --> 00:39:25,942
Speaker 1: the hair. Sounds a bit like a fight to me,

774
00:39:26,622 --> 00:39:28,901
Speaker 1: But I think there is truth to the fact that

775
00:39:29,382 --> 00:39:33,542
Speaker 1: a lot of the friction that can lead to fights,

776
00:39:33,942 --> 00:39:36,822
Speaker 1: and they say that every couple has the same argument

777
00:39:37,261 --> 00:39:39,382
Speaker 1: for the duration of their relationship. They just have it

778
00:39:39,422 --> 00:39:43,062
Speaker 1: in different ways. You can certainly smooth out some of

779
00:39:43,102 --> 00:39:49,582
Speaker 1: that friction with cleaners, with nannies, with drivers, with not

780
00:39:49,822 --> 00:39:52,102
Speaker 1: having to you know, money is a big thing that

781
00:39:52,181 --> 00:39:53,142
Speaker 1: couples fight about.

782
00:39:53,221 --> 00:39:56,622
Speaker 2: Yes, this is logistics. It removes the logistic conversation.

783
00:39:56,982 --> 00:40:00,781
Speaker 4: But what I would like to unpack a little bit

784
00:40:00,822 --> 00:40:04,181
Speaker 4: is the definition of a fight. Because Lucra and I

785
00:40:04,221 --> 00:40:06,062
Speaker 4: have always said Lucra and I don't fight. We have

786
00:40:06,181 --> 00:40:09,062
Speaker 4: never raised our voices. We have never sorry, We've never

787
00:40:09,102 --> 00:40:11,661
Speaker 4: raised each other. We don't raise voices.

788
00:40:12,181 --> 00:40:12,742
Speaker 3: We don't.

789
00:40:13,462 --> 00:40:14,622
Speaker 2: It's looking startled.

790
00:40:16,022 --> 00:40:16,542
Speaker 3: We don't.

791
00:40:17,142 --> 00:40:20,181
Speaker 1: Actually doesn't surprise me. I've heard neither of you raise

792
00:40:20,221 --> 00:40:21,302
Speaker 1: your voices to anyone.

793
00:40:21,542 --> 00:40:26,542
Speaker 4: No, and then even like you like whisper the.

794
00:40:26,142 --> 00:40:29,022
Speaker 3: Stupid wearing that God, I hate you.

795
00:40:29,822 --> 00:40:32,622
Speaker 4: We don't do the not talking to each other thing

796
00:40:32,822 --> 00:40:34,221
Speaker 4: like I know that some couples like.

797
00:40:34,741 --> 00:40:36,462
Speaker 3: It doesn't mean that we don't argue.

798
00:40:36,542 --> 00:40:42,861
Speaker 1: We've just started that after all, where it is just

799
00:40:43,382 --> 00:40:45,782
Speaker 1: weaponar silence. But the thing is that I just forget.

800
00:40:47,342 --> 00:40:49,542
Speaker 1: I can't concentrate. I'm like, are we still not talking?

801
00:40:49,622 --> 00:40:51,501
Speaker 3: I can't be What is a fight?

802
00:40:52,142 --> 00:40:53,102
Speaker 2: What is a fight?

803
00:40:53,221 --> 00:40:53,781
Speaker 3: What's a fight.

804
00:40:53,862 --> 00:40:56,102
Speaker 2: It's a disagreement, right.

805
00:40:56,382 --> 00:40:58,822
Speaker 4: Disagreements like you have disagreements about what you want for dinner,

806
00:40:59,181 --> 00:40:59,701
Speaker 4: but like.

807
00:40:59,661 --> 00:41:04,062
Speaker 1: Whether we should summer in the lake coast hard if

808
00:41:04,062 --> 00:41:06,742
Speaker 1: there are other people that live in your house, it's harder.

809
00:41:06,781 --> 00:41:09,262
Speaker 1: It's harder to have sex, and it's harder to have fights.

810
00:41:09,701 --> 00:41:11,702
Speaker 1: They have there's always someone around.

811
00:41:11,822 --> 00:41:12,542
Speaker 3: We have your twins.

812
00:41:12,542 --> 00:41:14,661
Speaker 4: I'm sure their twins can be like rich people have

813
00:41:14,701 --> 00:41:18,862
Speaker 4: annoying kids. Rich people have a leak in their roof, right.

814
00:41:18,822 --> 00:41:20,301
Speaker 2: Well, yes, but they don't have to deal with it.

815
00:41:20,781 --> 00:41:23,622
Speaker 2: Gurus would tell you that it's not something to aspire to.

816
00:41:23,902 --> 00:41:25,741
Speaker 2: So the idea, like you know, it used to be.

817
00:41:25,781 --> 00:41:27,221
Speaker 2: I remember when I was growing up, it was like

818
00:41:27,221 --> 00:41:29,422
Speaker 2: there were some famous couples who've never spent a night apart,

819
00:41:29,422 --> 00:41:32,461
Speaker 2: and that was seen as the absolute pinnacle of like

820
00:41:32,982 --> 00:41:35,661
Speaker 2: you know, of togetherness is that they hate being a partner,

821
00:41:35,741 --> 00:41:38,622
Speaker 2: never apart. And this is similar the headlines around the

822
00:41:38,661 --> 00:41:41,821
Speaker 2: cloonies don't fight has been held up like if only

823
00:41:41,862 --> 00:41:44,142
Speaker 2: we could all be like them. But I think gurus

824
00:41:44,142 --> 00:41:46,542
Speaker 2: say you should fight, like you shouldn't fight. You shouldn't

825
00:41:46,542 --> 00:41:50,142
Speaker 2: insult each other, criticize each other, relentlessly. You shouldn't go

826
00:41:50,261 --> 00:41:53,821
Speaker 2: low and all those things, but you shouldn't tiptoe around

827
00:41:53,862 --> 00:41:56,701
Speaker 2: pretending everything's hunky dory all the time, because ultimately one

828
00:41:56,701 --> 00:41:57,942
Speaker 2: of your heads will fall.

829
00:41:57,701 --> 00:41:59,542
Speaker 3: Yes, which is maybe of conflict.

830
00:41:59,622 --> 00:42:02,942
Speaker 4: Maybe I consider that a discussion a discussion or an argument.

831
00:42:02,942 --> 00:42:05,142
Speaker 4: And we will have all the time, We'll have things

832
00:42:05,142 --> 00:42:07,861
Speaker 4: where we sit down and I go, especially since having

833
00:42:07,862 --> 00:42:09,941
Speaker 4: a baby, where you go, I feel like I'm.

834
00:42:09,862 --> 00:42:10,702
Speaker 3: Doing a little bit more.

835
00:42:11,261 --> 00:42:15,062
Speaker 4: Neither of us escalated. And I've been in relationships before

836
00:42:15,261 --> 00:42:18,622
Speaker 4: where I've been with an escalator or someone who isn't

837
00:42:18,661 --> 00:42:21,221
Speaker 4: listening or whatever, and I have felt either I raise

838
00:42:21,261 --> 00:42:22,862
Speaker 4: my voice or they raise their voice, and then I

839
00:42:22,902 --> 00:42:24,942
Speaker 4: felt to get really messy. And maybe that's what I

840
00:42:24,982 --> 00:42:25,782
Speaker 4: consider a files.

841
00:42:25,902 --> 00:42:29,502
Speaker 2: And I also think that there's something so the Cloonies. Famously,

842
00:42:29,822 --> 00:42:32,941
Speaker 2: George Clooney got married in his early fifties, I think right,

843
00:42:33,302 --> 00:42:35,901
Speaker 2: and for many years there was like a marriage watch

844
00:42:35,942 --> 00:42:38,261
Speaker 2: on Clooney. And he once made a bet, didn't He said,

845
00:42:38,261 --> 00:42:40,102
Speaker 2: I'm never gonna get married, oh kid, never gonna have

846
00:42:40,221 --> 00:42:43,542
Speaker 2: kids with Nicole Kidman. And obviously that was pre a

847
00:42:43,622 --> 00:42:46,062
Speaker 2: mile universe. But also there's something to be said for

848
00:42:46,102 --> 00:42:48,702
Speaker 2: the fact he probably knows himself pretty well by that point.

849
00:42:49,062 --> 00:42:52,702
Speaker 2: She's a very smart woman. If they've had relationships before

850
00:42:52,701 --> 00:42:55,422
Speaker 2: with as you described them, escalators, Jesse, and they don't

851
00:42:55,502 --> 00:42:57,781
Speaker 2: like it. Because some couples love fighting, they like, I mean,

852
00:42:58,022 --> 00:43:01,661
Speaker 2: not horrible fights, but they love the energy of it,

853
00:43:01,741 --> 00:43:04,181
Speaker 2: the excitement of it. And if you like that, that's great.

854
00:43:04,181 --> 00:43:06,181
Speaker 2: But if you hate that and you recoil from it,

855
00:43:06,422 --> 00:43:08,221
Speaker 2: then that's one of the things you're not looking for.

856
00:43:08,261 --> 00:43:10,181
Speaker 2: And when you're fifty four year old Clooney and you're

857
00:43:10,181 --> 00:43:13,462
Speaker 2: picking your glorious human rights lawyer, you're probably going as

858
00:43:13,502 --> 00:43:15,741
Speaker 2: she's going to be yelling at me about the fact

859
00:43:15,741 --> 00:43:18,142
Speaker 2: my toenails are ugly enough have to put shoes.

860
00:43:17,822 --> 00:43:20,221
Speaker 1: On, you know. I think that if there's good communication,

861
00:43:21,302 --> 00:43:23,662
Speaker 1: that is what you're talking about. If you've got someone

862
00:43:23,661 --> 00:43:27,221
Speaker 1: who is a bad communicator or who won't communicate with you,

863
00:43:28,022 --> 00:43:30,622
Speaker 1: that's really hard. That's where conflict lives. But if you

864
00:43:30,661 --> 00:43:33,821
Speaker 1: can talk and resolve things, you know.

865
00:43:33,902 --> 00:43:36,182
Speaker 4: I do think too that George Clooney is a smart

866
00:43:36,181 --> 00:43:38,702
Speaker 4: man and he knows that. I mean, I'm not starting

867
00:43:38,701 --> 00:43:40,582
Speaker 4: any fight with a human rights I just think that

868
00:43:40,622 --> 00:43:42,142
Speaker 4: she's going to win. Every time, So he's like, I

869
00:43:42,261 --> 00:43:43,062
Speaker 4: back down side.

870
00:43:43,701 --> 00:43:45,781
Speaker 2: I've heard whispers that people think he's going to run.

871
00:43:45,982 --> 00:43:49,341
Speaker 2: Is he going to run Clooney for president? I've heard whispers.

872
00:43:49,542 --> 00:43:51,742
Speaker 1: I think it would make a lot of sense because

873
00:43:51,741 --> 00:43:54,142
Speaker 1: the Democrats are in all sorts of trouble.

874
00:43:54,181 --> 00:43:55,781
Speaker 3: Remember when it was going to be so I got

875
00:43:55,862 --> 00:43:56,301
Speaker 3: left to do.

876
00:43:56,382 --> 00:43:57,821
Speaker 1: Yeah, she doesn't want to do it, but I can

877
00:43:57,862 --> 00:43:59,381
Speaker 1: imagine that he'd like to kick that off.

878
00:44:00,622 --> 00:44:01,781
Speaker 3: Gay or King could give it a go.

879
00:44:01,982 --> 00:44:04,781
Speaker 7: Yes, as girl, King would be great A loud us

880
00:44:04,902 --> 00:44:08,422
Speaker 7: thank you all for listening to our wide ranging show

881
00:44:08,462 --> 00:44:11,901
Speaker 7: today and to our fabulous team who've helped us put

882
00:44:11,902 --> 00:44:12,502
Speaker 7: it all together.

883
00:44:12,701 --> 00:44:14,542
Speaker 2: We're going to be back in your ears tomorrow. Takes

884
00:44:14,542 --> 00:44:15,622
Speaker 2: a village to make a show.

885
00:44:15,701 --> 00:44:17,702
Speaker 1: Let us tell you out loud as it does.

886
00:44:18,661 --> 00:44:20,542
Speaker 2: We're going to be back in your ears tomorrow. And

887
00:44:20,661 --> 00:44:26,781
Speaker 2: if you're in Perth, in your eyes on Thursday night byey.

888
00:44:26,181 --> 00:44:29,462
Speaker 1: Shout out to any Muma Maya subscribers listening. If you

889
00:44:29,582 --> 00:44:31,942
Speaker 1: love the show and want to support us as well,

890
00:44:32,142 --> 00:44:34,542
Speaker 1: subscribing to Mom and Maya is the very best way

891
00:44:34,582 --> 00:44:36,661
Speaker 1: to do so. There is a link in the episode

892
00:44:36,661 --> 00:44:37,102
Speaker 1: description