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Speaker 1: This episode of CCA is brought to you by Stan

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Speaker 1: and their exclusive new series Everything I Know About Love,

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Speaker 1: based on the best selling memoir by Dolly Alderton. If

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Speaker 1: you love the bowl type and younger, then this series

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Speaker 1: is for you, streaming now only on Stan.

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Speaker 2: Everyone is so afraid that we're trying to turn men

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Speaker 2: into women, and it's like, no, We've been trying to

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Speaker 2: turn women into men for how many years? It's like,

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Speaker 2: there has to be an understanding that there are benefits

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Speaker 2: to all of this. Gender has always intrigued me. If

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Speaker 2: we talk about curiosity, it's like, what the hell is

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Speaker 2: going on? How did this happen? Why are people responding

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Speaker 2: in the way that they are. It makes both a

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Speaker 2: lot of sense and very little, depending on what you're

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Speaker 2: coming at it.

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Speaker 3: Front.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the CS THEA Podcast. Busy and happy are

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Speaker 1: not the same thing. We too rarely question what makes

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Speaker 1: the heart seeing. We work, then we rest, but rarely

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Speaker 1: we play and often don't realize there's more than one way.

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Speaker 1: So this is a platform to hear and explore the

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Speaker 1: stories of those who found lives. They adore, the good,

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Speaker 1: bad and ugly. The best and worst day will bear

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Speaker 1: all the facets of Seizing Your Yea. I'm Sarah Davidson

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Speaker 1: or a spoonful of Sarah, a lawyer turned fanentrepreneur who

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Speaker 1: swapped the suits and heels to co found matcha Maiden

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Speaker 1: and matcha Milk Bar. Sez the Ya is a series

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Speaker 1: of conversations on finding a life you love and exploring

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Speaker 1: the self doubt, challenge, joy and fulfillment along the way. Hallo,

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Speaker 1: Lovely neighborhood. This week is Men's Health Week from the

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Speaker 1: thirteenth to the nineteenth of June, and every year, as

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Speaker 1: you may remember, we dedicate a specific episode to the conversation.

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Speaker 1: Like most international or national awareness weeks, the health and

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Speaker 1: wellness of our men and boys and their specific needs

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Speaker 1: in that context are important every single week, and not

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Speaker 1: just right now. But I do find it always helps

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Speaker 1: to have gentle reminders throughout the year, especially for topics

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Speaker 1: like this that can still carry in some cases stigma, tradition,

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Speaker 1: or even a bit of shame. We've had some amazing

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Speaker 1: conversations in the past with fabulous guests about the changing

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Speaker 1: social conceptions of masculinity, the biggest challenges for men's mental health,

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Speaker 1: and how we can better support our boys. Earlier on

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Speaker 1: in their lives, and I can't think of anyone better

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Speaker 1: to continue those chats this year than clinical psychologist, leading

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Speaker 1: men's mental health researcher, and director of Mental health Training

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Speaker 1: at November, doctor Zach Seidler. Zach is the ultimate advocate

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Speaker 1: for better understanding men's mental health and masculinity, dedicating his

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Speaker 1: career to helping reduce the staggering rate of males suicide worldwide.

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Speaker 1: I loved hearing in this episode how he approaches that

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Speaker 1: passion from multiple different directions, continuing to see patients one

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Speaker 1: on one, to research academically, and work at an executive

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Speaker 1: level at November. He has a million things going on,

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Speaker 1: as you can see, so I feel very lucky that

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Speaker 1: he has shared his wisdom and passion with the neighborhood

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Speaker 1: this week. Content warning, we do discuss mental health and

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Speaker 1: suicide in some depth throughout the episode, so please do

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Speaker 1: take care while you're listening, and I've listed some resources

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Speaker 1: in the show notes. Please never hesitate to reach out

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Speaker 1: if you do feel like you need help, and I

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Speaker 1: hope that this conversation and others like it on the

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Speaker 1: show help you to do so. Zach, welcome to the show.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having me I'm very excited to be here.

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Speaker 1: Oh, thank you so much for joining. We've had about

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Speaker 1: six minutes together so far, and I feel like we

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Speaker 1: could pretty much finish there. Like you are just already

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Speaker 1: an extraordinary human. I mean, the first reference that we

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Speaker 1: shared was pivot, and if you don't know what that means,

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Speaker 1: then you should just log off the show right now.

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Speaker 2: To be honest, exactly, I don't think you'll love that

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Speaker 2: many audience members. Friends is it's.

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Speaker 3: Where it's at.

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Speaker 1: It is ubiquitous. It is, you know, the foundation of

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Speaker 1: so many friendships, every joke that I make basically, so

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Speaker 1: really it is the foundation of society. I agree with you.

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Speaker 3: I agree we'll be talking about friendship today, no doubt.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, definitely there.

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Speaker 1: And we will move our conversation away from exclusively communicating

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Speaker 1: via friends references eventually, so as not to alienate anyone

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Speaker 1: who you know, the one percent of society who's not

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Speaker 1: up there with the friends references. But this has probably

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Speaker 1: already shown everyone that you're incredibly down to earth, despite

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Speaker 1: some pretty impressive titles, achievements and like society wide changes

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Speaker 1: that you're leading. But just to indulge me, I start

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Speaker 1: every episode before we get into the juice by asking

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Speaker 1: everyone what the most down to earth thing is about them,

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Speaker 1: because you know, often you're introduced or preceded by your

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Speaker 1: title and your achievements, and it's easy to see this

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Speaker 1: glossy surface through media or social media. So what's something

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Speaker 1: that's really normal or relatable about you?

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Speaker 3: For sure?

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Speaker 2: I try my best. Like my whole approach, whether it

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Speaker 2: be as a therapist or a researcher, is constantly to

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Speaker 2: just be the everyman. I don't know how well I

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Speaker 2: do at it, but I swear like a trooper that

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Speaker 2: always helps.

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Speaker 1: That's welcome exactly.

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Speaker 3: I just want to be I just want to be

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Speaker 3: a dude amongst other dudes. And so my day to

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Speaker 3: day I think is pretty.

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Speaker 2: Down to earth. I swim every morning. I love love

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Speaker 2: the ocean. It's my dive therapy to me, gets me going,

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Speaker 2: and really, you know, down to worth speaking. I ate

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Speaker 2: the same musley every morning.

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Speaker 1: Oh I love this.

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Speaker 2: I'm a hoarder, so I just buy like when it's

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Speaker 2: on sale. I actually went in yesterday to Woolies and

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Speaker 2: my musley, which I love, is on sale. I'm not

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Speaker 2: going to give it a product placement because they don't

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Speaker 2: deserve it, but they.

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Speaker 1: I was going to say, you're going to give it

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Speaker 1: a little a sprink. Is it a November Likes partnership product?

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Speaker 3: Not yet, but it will be after this and TBC. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: the musley is all shaped in mustaches.

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Speaker 2: I went and I just bought like thirty packets of it,

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Speaker 2: and the Woolies guy came up to me and he goes,

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Speaker 2: it's you, and I go, what do you mean? He goes,

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Speaker 2: I knew someone was taking all of it. I'm like,

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Speaker 2: I'm a doomsday prepper.

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Speaker 3: What do you want?

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Speaker 1: You know, musley and toilet paper? That was all you.

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Speaker 1: I'm understanding everything. All the jigsaw puzzle pieces are coming

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Speaker 1: together exactly exactly. I mean. Even the fact that you

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Speaker 1: use the phrase I am the everyman. I love that

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Speaker 1: a lot. I think that that is, you know, the

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Speaker 1: every person is when you're more relatable and people can

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Speaker 1: look at parts of your life and go, oh, like,

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Speaker 1: even though you're a director and you're doing all these

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Speaker 1: huge things. You know, you like your musically, and if

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Speaker 1: you don't have your musically, like the day is a disaster.

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Speaker 1: Everyone can relate to that exactly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm just going about my day doing as much

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Speaker 2: as I possibly can. Friendship and the sunshine, like little

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Speaker 2: things just just make my make my day.

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Speaker 3: For sure.

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Speaker 2: I'm just very lucky to get to do what I

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Speaker 2: do every day. But for all intents and purposes, I'm

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Speaker 2: just average.

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Speaker 3: Zach hanging out.

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Speaker 1: Average is not the worst.

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Speaker 3: These glasses off, you'd be very surprised.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you put them back on. That's too much.

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Speaker 1: Just like, put those away right now. We are not

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Speaker 1: going to be able to continue this. It'll just be

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Speaker 1: too much. Maybe at the end we can, we can

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Speaker 1: build up to that, but just that was too soon.

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Speaker 1: I'm just yeah. Anyway. It's interesting also that a lot

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Speaker 1: of people in your position are so surprisingly humble and relatable.

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Speaker 1: But often I think use the word luck and lucky

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Speaker 1: a lot in the retelling of their story, partly because

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Speaker 1: I'm sure there have been very fratuitous sliding doors moments

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Speaker 1: or people or timing or all those kinds of things.

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Speaker 1: But I think sometimes we attribute too much, maybe in

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Speaker 1: the journey to luck, because I'm sure there's been a

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Speaker 1: lot of angst and hard work and folks in the

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Speaker 1: road and tears and you know, a lot of challenge

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Speaker 1: also along the way, but also twists and turns like

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Speaker 1: very few people wake up as a five year old

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Speaker 1: and go, I want to work on men's mental health,

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Speaker 1: Like that's what I want to do. So the first

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Speaker 1: section is your way to where we kind of go

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Speaker 1: back to you childhood, Zach and trace thro all those

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Speaker 1: chapters to remind everyone that finding an ultimate purpose is

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Speaker 1: very twisty and turning, it's never what you expect, and

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Speaker 1: that it does take more than luck, like a big

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Speaker 1: melting pot of lots of different circumstances to end up

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Speaker 1: where you are. So take us back to the very beginning.

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Speaker 1: What were you like as a child? First job? Gifted

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Speaker 1: from day jab.

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Speaker 2: They I might throw some Spanish here because I have

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Speaker 2: very much somewhat had a plan for quite a while,

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Speaker 2: and not having planned b from what I was probably

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Speaker 2: around fifteen sixteen when I decided how this was going

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Speaker 2: to go, not specifically exactly where I am, but I

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Speaker 2: knew the trajectory about where I wanted to go. And

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Speaker 2: while I am very lucky about the people that I've met,

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Speaker 2: about the relationships that have led to where I am,

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Speaker 2: about the things that have fallen into my lap.

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Speaker 3: Because I am a straight.

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Speaker 2: White male, I'm not under any yeah, I'm fully aware

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Speaker 2: of the fact that I have some power privilege on

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Speaker 2: my side, so I try to give that back when

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Speaker 2: best I can. But most importantly, it started out, I guess,

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Speaker 2: if we're to look at why people become psychologists as well,

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Speaker 2: I had a lot of female friends grow out, and

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Speaker 2: I was always intrigued as to why they spoke and

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Speaker 2: related to each other so differently to my football friends,

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Speaker 2: for instance, And so the ability to mold in different

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Speaker 2: situations was something that I realized I could do. I

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Speaker 2: can be a bloke if I need to be. I

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Speaker 2: don't really enjoy it that much.

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Speaker 3: I much prepare.

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Speaker 2: I much preferred deep, deep, deep chats with my friends.

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Speaker 2: And so, yeah, I realized probably when I was, you know,

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Speaker 2: eleven or twelve, that I was, you know, really keen

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Speaker 2: on you know, drama and music, which led me into

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Speaker 2: female dominated places. And then I was always inquisitive and curious.

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Speaker 2: I love stories, and I think that lots of people

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Speaker 2: psychologists don't say this, but I'm nosy as hell, and

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Speaker 2: so I think that that's now I get to be

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Speaker 2: paid for it, and so you see what's next.

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Speaker 1: I'm just a big gossip seriously, But.

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Speaker 2: I would never tell anyone anything that happens in session.

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Speaker 2: But for my own nosiness, it's great. But I love stories.

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Speaker 2: I love you know, the fiction that I I read

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Speaker 2: growing up was always I'm not into fantasy or sci fi.

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Speaker 2: I don't understand reality. How do I have time for dragons?

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Speaker 2: Like all my mates were watching and reading that shit,

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Speaker 2: and I was like, no, not for me. So I

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Speaker 2: got really deep into the character stuff. I was always

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Speaker 2: you know what comes next? How is someone going to

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Speaker 2: respond to something? What you know really means you know

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Speaker 2: and derives purpose for them. And so, you know, going

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Speaker 2: through that process and growing up, I've got three siblings,

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Speaker 2: as four of us.

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Speaker 3: Real loud, real competitive.

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Speaker 2: It was a lot of watching because I'm third, and

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Speaker 2: you know, people talk about birth order and the importance

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Speaker 2: of it, but I've got two older brothers, and so

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Speaker 2: I got to learn a lot from just watching and

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Speaker 2: seeing how things were going. And so when it came

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Speaker 2: down to choosing a degree, you know, I didn't want

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Speaker 2: to do law, I didn't necessarily want to do medicine.

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Speaker 2: I thought it was a safe middle ground to pick psychology.

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Speaker 2: And it was also, you know, something that I'd spoken

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Speaker 2: to various people about because the idea of being able

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Speaker 2: to spend fleeting moments with people who are willing to

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Speaker 2: open up to you, and you have the ability, hopefully

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Speaker 2: after ten years of training, to offer them a semblance

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Speaker 2: of care and compassion. You know, fairness is such a

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Speaker 2: strong value for me. I'm realizing that more and more

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Speaker 2: in my old age, and.

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Speaker 3: That ability.

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Speaker 2: I'm waiting set that idea of offering someone a bit

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Speaker 2: of respite. And you know, people always say this whenever

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Speaker 2: I tell the moment psychologists. First they go, are you

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Speaker 2: reading my mind? And I go, yes, nothing's going on

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Speaker 2: in there, seriously, tumbleweed, tumbleweeds. And secondly, how do you

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Speaker 2: cope with listening to depressing content all the time? And

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Speaker 2: I'm like, I've never seen it like that. They are

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Speaker 2: coming to me and it's such a unique space where

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Speaker 2: my desires, my needs are not in the room. You know,

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Speaker 2: you go into any friendship, it's always someone else has

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Speaker 2: you know, you're going to pay back and forth with

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Speaker 2: each other. Oh, I did that with my girlfriend and

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Speaker 2: this happened. That happened in therapy. It's purely an hour

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Speaker 2: of me, you know, being hopefully just a sounding board

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Speaker 2: of sorts and hopefully some strategic you know, coping strategies

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Speaker 2: or whatever it may be. But it's such a such

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Speaker 2: a privilege to be able to be in that space

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Speaker 2: that I'm glad, you know, to be able to work

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Speaker 2: with someone in such an empowering way. It doesn't feel

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Speaker 2: depressing to me working towards getting them better. Knowing that

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Speaker 2: everyone's on their own doing nothing about it, that's depressing.

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Speaker 3: Yea, hopefully, you know. And being a therapist is only,

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Speaker 3: as we'll discuss, only.

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Speaker 2: One part of my day to day. But yeah, the

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Speaker 2: men's stuff, which we'll talk about gender has always intrigued me,

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Speaker 2: Like it's we talk about curiosity. It's like, what the

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Speaker 2: hell is going on?

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Speaker 1: What is that whole situation?

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Speaker 2: Its happened? Why people responding in the way that they are.

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Speaker 2: It makes both a lot of sense and very little,

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Speaker 2: depending on what avenue you're coming at it from. So

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Speaker 2: it's you know, so endlessly fascinating to me that it

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Speaker 2: was a no brainer. And when people are like, oh my.

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Speaker 3: God, you're a specialist, look at you specialize in man,

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Speaker 3: I'm like, it's fifty percent of the population interacting that

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Speaker 3: the fact that it's a specialty is a problem.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that's a really interesting way to look at it,

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Speaker 1: and just something that really jumped out of me just now,

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Speaker 1: which is, you know the fact that so many people

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Speaker 1: kind of you do think when you think of psychologists,

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Speaker 1: you think straight away about compassion, fatigue and the challenge

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Speaker 1: and how much you wear other people's stuff on you.

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Speaker 1: But the fact that that's not even your immediate reaction

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Speaker 1: at all is the whole crux of this show and

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Speaker 1: the idea of Seizing your Yea is that what one

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Speaker 1: person finds incredibly challenging, in fact, sometimes their worst nightmare

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Speaker 1: is someone else's best day of their life. And that's

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Speaker 1: how you find your thing. It's that it doesn't feel

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Speaker 1: hard for you. I'm sure they are parts that are hard,

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Speaker 1: but the essence of finding what your purpose is in

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Speaker 1: this world is that when you wake up in the morning,

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Speaker 1: you know you're excited about that thing. It doesn't feel

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Speaker 1: heavy like it might for someone else. And maybe if

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Speaker 1: what you're doing every day does feel hard and awful

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Speaker 1: and depressing, maybe that isn't the place for you. And

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Speaker 1: it's the lightness that you find when you find your

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Speaker 1: path in the world that I think shows that you're

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Speaker 1: on the right track. I love that so much because

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Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, it shouldn't feel like that for you,

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Speaker 1: because that's where you're meant to be.

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Speaker 3: Exactly, are you the therapist?

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Speaker 2: Well? Yes, actually I'm very much about and my friends

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Speaker 2: will always attest to this. I'm very irritating because I

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Speaker 2: constantly shake up the status quo. Like if they complain

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Speaker 2: week on week about how shit their job is, like

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Speaker 2: I will push them and.

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Speaker 1: Look, you together, I'm not having a barrier, no way.

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Speaker 2: My friends, my family doesn't matter. It's like, get out,

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Speaker 2: what are you doing? Like and someone said to me

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Speaker 2: the other day, you know, because I asked, I go,

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Speaker 2: what's your what's your dream job? What do you want

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Speaker 2: to do? What could you know, if you had endless resources,

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Speaker 2: whatever it was, what would you do? And they go,

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Speaker 2: that's a dumb question, and they go what's your dream job?

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Speaker 2: I go what I'm doing right now?

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Speaker 3: And they're like disgusting, get out of my face and irritating.

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Speaker 2: And it shouldn't be irritating that. That is what my

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Speaker 2: response is. It's like it should be a model. We

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Speaker 2: should be striving for waking up in the morning and

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Speaker 2: being excited and work shouldn't be some side hustle you

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Speaker 2: know that plays the bills. But yeah, from very early on,

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Speaker 2: I wanted complete control of my life. So I have

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Speaker 2: no fucking time for hierarchies. I have no time for

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Speaker 2: corporate culture. And now I have the ability, because apparently

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Speaker 2: I'm an expert at something, to rock up, to rock

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Speaker 2: up at law firms and to just grill partners about

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Speaker 2: how they go about well being and they have to

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Speaker 2: listen because they're paying me.

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Speaker 3: So it's awesome.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if you had come to our law firm,

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Speaker 1: I might still be there. That would have been really useful.

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Speaker 1: If the timing had a lane a little bit differently,

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Speaker 1: times are a changing. But that's also you know another

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Speaker 1: thing that why is that a stupid question? Is that not?

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Speaker 1: The first question you should ask is like, aside from

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Speaker 1: any obligation or financial concerns, what would you do? That

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Speaker 1: should be kind of the driving question that you ask first. It's, yes,

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Speaker 1: obviously hypothetical, but like that's where you should be aiming for,

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Speaker 1: is what would you do if you had no limits?

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Speaker 1: And then work on removing the limits or lessening the

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Speaker 1: limits so you can actually get there. But before we do,

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Speaker 1: move on to how it developed from choosing psychology and

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Speaker 1: expanding beyond you know, your typical psychologists, private practice or

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Speaker 1: whatever you know people go into. It's interesting that you

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Speaker 1: did find this so early, and perhaps in a time

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Speaker 1: where you know, now men's mental health and mental health

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Speaker 1: in general is coming along much more rapidly than perhaps

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Speaker 1: any other generation. But you know, I'm thinking of you

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Speaker 1: at Mariah College being the drama guy, sitting with your

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Speaker 1: female peers and being curious and asking all those kinds

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Speaker 1: of questions, like well ahead of your time and well

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Speaker 1: ahead of everyone else understanding what you were doing. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: when you are ahead of your time, like you get bullying,

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Speaker 1: or you get sidelined, or you get questions, people think

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Speaker 1: you're weird because you're too sensitive, or you know, the

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Speaker 1: world often doesn't catch up with you straight away. Was

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Speaker 1: it hard for you to continue with that curiosity at

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Speaker 1: a time where people were like, like, dude, stuff asking questions.

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Speaker 1: We're all just getting drunk and like pashing each other,

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Speaker 1: you know, or like we're being football jocks. Like high

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Speaker 1: school is a weird time to be so in tune

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Speaker 1: with storytelling and stuff when no one else is really

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Speaker 1: into that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, boy, what a time?

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Speaker 1: Like do you remember that fondly?

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Speaker 2: Or no, I didn't get bullied thankfully. Really again, six

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Speaker 2: foot two, I can run. I have like certain traits

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Speaker 2: that meant that I could get away with being a

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Speaker 2: weirder right, which I'm very thankful for. And I also

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Speaker 2: am so thankful for all the women in my life

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Speaker 2: who allowed me that space because most of the men

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Speaker 2: were very uncomfortable in those conversations, so I didn't get

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Speaker 2: to cut my teeth in those chats whereas really going

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Speaker 2: you know, in depth with various female friends along the

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Speaker 2: way because it was their norm as well, and so

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Speaker 2: you know, while they questioned my sexuality, which is a

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Speaker 2: very interesting norm, which is like no way as straight

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Speaker 2: man gives a shit about this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're the gay best friends absolutely.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, we can talk about being you know, put

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Speaker 2: in the friend zone endlessly, which.

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Speaker 1: Is man, dude, I can't even I can't even imagine.

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Speaker 3: The place to be. Everyone needs to just handle it.

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Speaker 1: Just hang out there. You are ross, dude, told.

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Speaker 2: You, Yeah, I never really felt like I fit in

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Speaker 2: because I was just like on the fringe of every group.

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Speaker 2: And that's because I wanted more. I constantly wanted more

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Speaker 2: from everyone and I still do in many ways, and

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Speaker 2: it's probably exhausting for my friends because it's it's something

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Speaker 2: that I am constantly pushing for more depth. You know,

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Speaker 2: if I go to a Bucks party, it's.

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Speaker 3: It's so full on for them.

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Speaker 2: I can only imagine, but like it's like why, I'll

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Speaker 2: just sit there in the corner and be like, why

387
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Speaker 2: are there strippers?

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Speaker 3: How did this happen? What is going on?

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Speaker 1: That's psychoanalyze.

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Speaker 2: Everyone's like, oh, you analyze everything. I don't sit there

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Speaker 2: and judge people by any means, but it's just like

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Speaker 2: I want I want to get to the core of

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Speaker 2: like what are we doing? Why did this happen? Why

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Speaker 2: are we chugging shots of a naked one?

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Speaker 3: Like? How did know not happening?

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Speaker 2: And so so many people are so comfortable not shaking

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Speaker 2: shit up. I think that the status quo has gotten

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Speaker 2: us in a lot of hot water, you know, and

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Speaker 2: there aren't enough people who are willing to And I

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Speaker 2: think that that's where I got my courage from. In

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Speaker 2: many ways, it's kind of how I go about my

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Speaker 2: therapy and my work day to day, which is just

403
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Speaker 2: you know, blunt, extremely blunt, and I'm just straight to

404
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Speaker 2: the point because I just don't have time for unnecessary bureaucracy.

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Speaker 2: You know, I'll always question people's insecurities around various things,

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Speaker 2: and always push for motivation and self belief because I

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Speaker 2: think that we just constantly get in our own ways.

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Speaker 2: And so the greater skill that my training has given

409
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Speaker 2: me is seeing things from multiple angles. And so childhood

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Speaker 2: all the way up until God twenty three twenty four

411
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Speaker 2: was just what is happening and how am I supposed

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Speaker 2: to fit in here? And it's only really in retrospect

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Speaker 2: that I'm aware of how uncomfortable I was and how

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Speaker 2: kind of out of control it all seemed. I was

415
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Speaker 2: really anxious for a long time, mainly because again, I

416
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Speaker 2: just didn't feel like I had control over things. It's

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Speaker 2: like when you're at school and they're exammed, and it's

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Speaker 2: like everyone's telling me what to do. Everyone's you know,

419
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Speaker 2: it's happening to me, and so implicitly along the way,

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Speaker 2: I think I forged a career when no one can

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Speaker 2: tell me what to do.

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Speaker 3: I worried to my various propeople along the way, but

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Speaker 3: they know that.

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Speaker 1: I'm unmanageable, and I think that's why I bring that up,

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Speaker 1: because I think when you are earlier than you know,

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Speaker 1: the average person in finding what you really love a

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Speaker 1: particularly if you're earlier than society in flying the flag

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Speaker 1: for whatever cause or speciality or whatever that is. I

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Speaker 1: think it's often forgotten that if you do it early

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Speaker 1: and you're leading the way, that you face a lot

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Speaker 1: of no one else getting what you're doing, and it's

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Speaker 1: not super comfortable, and you do face a lot of like,

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Speaker 1: it's not cool until it's cool. Now it's cool, and

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Speaker 1: now you've done the work to get to the cool bit.

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Speaker 1: But all the way along the way you face a

436
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:33,680
Speaker 1: lot of people being like what is this conversation you're

437
00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:34,960
Speaker 1: trying to have with me? Like I just want to

438
00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:36,399
Speaker 1: do shots off the strip, but like shut up.

439
00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:38,879
Speaker 2: The weird thing is is that it's now almost the

440
00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:42,800
Speaker 2: rate where I need to shut it down because I'll

441
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:44,760
Speaker 2: be at a party and people will hunt me down.

442
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:46,119
Speaker 3: And that's just life, you know.

443
00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:49,000
Speaker 2: And it's always the drunk dude who suddenly has wants

444
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:50,359
Speaker 2: to tell me his whole life story and it's like,

445
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:52,680
Speaker 2: I don't it's Saturday, this isn't happening.

446
00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:56,600
Speaker 1: Now. I want to do the shots, like leave me alone.

447
00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:57,400
Speaker 3: Have fun.

448
00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:59,959
Speaker 2: But the idea of you know, I've thought about this

449
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,679
Speaker 2: as well, that oh, it was a pure luck that

450
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:04,560
Speaker 2: I've ended up in this. You know now that there's

451
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:07,440
Speaker 2: a mental health boom and everyone is paying attention, especially

452
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:09,719
Speaker 2: to the you know, male suicide epidemic that's going on.

453
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:10,880
Speaker 3: At the moment, it.

454
00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:13,840
Speaker 2: Didn't feel again purposeful, but I think there was something

455
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:15,680
Speaker 2: just going on behind the scenes where you're getting enough

456
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:19,600
Speaker 2: reinforcement slowly but surely growing to the point where you're like,

457
00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:22,200
Speaker 2: oh shit, I've got a double down here. This seems

458
00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:24,920
Speaker 2: to be where it's at. And that's just again that's

459
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,000
Speaker 2: just being in the right place at the right time,

460
00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:30,479
Speaker 2: but also knowing what to leverage to your advantage. And

461
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,679
Speaker 2: I realized again that the being blunt and straight to

462
00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:37,399
Speaker 2: the point while having a base of research expertise underneath,

463
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,560
Speaker 2: but being able to communicate it like God, this status

464
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,320
Speaker 2: quo when it comes to scientific communication, everyone is so

465
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:47,880
Speaker 2: fucking boring. I'm not even boring, just like cannot get

466
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,159
Speaker 2: it out in a way that your everyday person is

467
00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:54,200
Speaker 2: going to understand. So it's always been that I kind

468
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:58,159
Speaker 2: of fall into the motivational coach situation where I'm just like,

469
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:00,480
Speaker 2: we can do better. There is more out there for

470
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:02,840
Speaker 2: all of us, and whether it's you know, go and

471
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,359
Speaker 2: hug your dad, whether it's go and you know, have

472
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:08,760
Speaker 2: a chat with your mates about what's going on for you.

473
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:12,800
Speaker 3: I will always push people and myself for more.

474
00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:14,680
Speaker 2: Well.

475
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,119
Speaker 1: I think it's you know, a lot of circumstances have

476
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 1: led to you being here today, but also perhaps it

477
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,440
Speaker 1: has been your work that has led to it being,

478
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,080
Speaker 1: you know, getting to a point where it is called

479
00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:29,280
Speaker 1: now it is much more like perhaps you played a

480
00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 1: role in how far it's come and how much easier

481
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 1: it is now for you to have those conversations. I

482
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:36,560
Speaker 1: think a lot of it is probably due to your

483
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,280
Speaker 1: career up until this point. And we're so so lucky

484
00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:40,960
Speaker 1: to have you here for Men's Health Week because you

485
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,200
Speaker 1: have become an expert in this area, working with an

486
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:47,679
Speaker 1: incredible range of organizations, and have not only you know,

487
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,359
Speaker 1: had your own journey to a PhD in psychology, but

488
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:53,399
Speaker 1: have expanded that to translating it to the everyman so

489
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:56,040
Speaker 1: that they can understand. It's one thing to be an

490
00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:58,400
Speaker 1: expert and have so much knowledge, but if, as you said,

491
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:00,520
Speaker 1: if you can't share that to the general population who

492
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:02,600
Speaker 1: don't have a PhD in psychology, they're not going to listen,

493
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 1: So before we dive into sort of how that happened

494
00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:08,080
Speaker 1: and what you do now, I think it's important in

495
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:10,640
Speaker 1: this episode in particular, to sort of be a bit

496
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,359
Speaker 1: more blunt about the landscape. And you know, the show

497
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,639
Speaker 1: is very yay focused and joy focused, but I think

498
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:18,960
Speaker 1: there are times where the platform needs to be used

499
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 1: for awareness of some of the hardest statistics that are

500
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:23,160
Speaker 1: a reality that get in the way of a lot

501
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 1: of people's joy. So can you give us a bit

502
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 1: of an idea of the landscape for mental health generally,

503
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 1: but in relation to men specifically. I know there's a

504
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,919
Speaker 1: Lula Lemon Global Wellbeing report that came out recently. There

505
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:39,520
Speaker 1: are some extreme, extremely confronting statistics about men's suicide, which

506
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 1: is something you've been really passionate about that I think

507
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 1: because it's not spoken about as much, this still is

508
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,680
Speaker 1: a lot of stigma around it. The every person probably

509
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:52,120
Speaker 1: doesn't know just how dire it is. So yeah, for sure.

510
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:57,679
Speaker 2: So we lose seven men a day in Australia to suicide,

511
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 2: and the world over, it's a man a minute. Those statistics,

512
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 2: you know, have not really moved in the past decade

513
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,160
Speaker 2: or so. Which is really worrying given the amount of

514
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 2: funds and attention that have been placed on this. The

515
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:15,960
Speaker 2: reasons for suicide are extremely complex, and this is something

516
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 2: that you know, we can it's a black box that

517
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:19,440
Speaker 2: we continue to try to unpack.

518
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 3: But you know, in interviews with people who have attempted.

519
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 2: And survived, and you know, I've done lots of research

520
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 2: with men across you know, whether it be indigenous men,

521
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 2: so many different groups of young and older guys. Every

522
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 2: interview is totally different. You can see themes, but the

523
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 2: key things that continuously come out are around situational stresses.

524
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,680
Speaker 2: So we talk about depression anxiety, you know, and we've

525
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 2: got extremely high rates and COVID has not helped by

526
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,439
Speaker 2: any means, and you know, it's one in six to

527
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,640
Speaker 2: one in eight men are dealing with depression anxiety day

528
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:57,879
Speaker 2: to day. Those numbers are undoubtedly underestimating the reality because

529
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 2: men do not come forward necessarily, they don't necessarily understand

530
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,639
Speaker 2: what they're experiencing. They won't label it as such, and

531
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 2: it looks really different in many men, and so it

532
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 2: will look like externalizing symptoms, which is to say, anger, aggression, irritability,

533
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:18,359
Speaker 2: substance misuse, things that are you know, boys being boys

534
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:22,359
Speaker 2: or men behaving badly are actually often cries for help,

535
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:24,919
Speaker 2: and we as a society and not very good at

536
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 2: responding to those because they're so difficult, you know, they're

537
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 2: so difficult to empathize with as well. And so if

538
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,080
Speaker 2: we look at depression anxiety, those you know, are obviously

539
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 2: going to be indicators for suicide. But we've also got

540
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 2: those situational stresses which are and have been inflamed because

541
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 2: of COVID, and we've got financial distress. Relationship breakdown is huge.

542
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 2: The rates of suicide up to six months post relationship

543
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,680
Speaker 2: breakdown are the highest that you're going to find amongst men,

544
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:03,240
Speaker 2: and men who divorced, widowed, or have just been through

545
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,719
Speaker 2: a breakup or a single you know, the suicide rate

546
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 2: compared to those men who are married and you know,

547
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 2: is much much higher.

548
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 3: So wow, And.

549
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 2: That's in comparison to women, where being single or breaking

550
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 2: up can be a protective factor. And that says a

551
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,399
Speaker 2: lot about the emotional burden that men, you know, are

552
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,679
Speaker 2: putting on women in heterosexual relationships as well for their

553
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:26,360
Speaker 2: emotional labor, which we can we can talk about later on.

554
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 2: So we've got a landscape where we've got men who

555
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:35,440
Speaker 2: are struggling in ways that they may not understand. They're

556
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 2: dealing with job loss, with finances, with being a protector

557
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 2: and provider, this traditional masculinity, and they will not ever

558
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:48,160
Speaker 2: be able to attain this standard of masculinity that they're

559
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 2: seeking because it's unattainable. It's just so so impossible to

560
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 2: reach in many ways, and so the way that they

561
00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 2: are finding an outlet is often in extremely maladaptive ways.

562
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 2: And so that's why I think we see rates of

563
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,399
Speaker 2: domestic advance that we do. I think that's why we

564
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,119
Speaker 2: see you know, drug and alcohol, that's why we see

565
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 2: male or male violence. We've just got serious concerns that

566
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,679
Speaker 2: do not come out in the mental health literature. And

567
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 2: I think that it's just look at the bucket overflowing,

568
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,160
Speaker 2: and it's coming out in all of these different other avenues.

569
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:28,400
Speaker 2: And so I'm kind of here to shine a light

570
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:30,399
Speaker 2: on this stuff and show that we can get onto

571
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,920
Speaker 2: this earlier, if we can find a way for not

572
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 2: only men, because there's been a lot of talk about

573
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 2: men need to talk more, men need to be more vulnerable,

574
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 2: men need to open up, when in fact, I think

575
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 2: our society needs to do a bit better at finding

576
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 2: space for male vulnerability. You know, we tell men to

577
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 2: open up, but are we actually ready to listen. I'm

578
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,239
Speaker 2: not sure as a society that we're there yet. And

579
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 2: so you know, Brene Brown always talks about this. You

580
00:28:57,800 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 2: tell them to be more vulnerable, and then he's more

581
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 2: vulnerable and shut up. We're done. You know, It's like,

582
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 2: I don't want you to be soft anymore. I can't

583
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 2: handle that. And so we need to consider our own

584
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 2: biases and expectations around how we want men to respond.

585
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 2: And I would say the main thing that I want

586
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 2: everyone to take away from this is that male loneliness

587
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 2: is like.

588
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 3: At the core of all of this, the idea.

589
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 2: Of belonging in social connection is everything that we should

590
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:27,960
Speaker 2: be striving for as a society.

591
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 3: And while if.

592
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 2: You look at the Lulu Element report, if you you know,

593
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 2: start to understand, oh, we thought COVID brought everyone together,

594
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 2: well yeah for some people, but for others it just

595
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 2: made them feel even more isolated, even more distanced and alienated.

596
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 2: And the key to our wellbeing is cohesion, is togetherness.

597
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 2: And you know, I always implore people to pick up

598
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 2: their phone find three people that they haven't spoken to

599
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 2: in a while and just drop them message because God

600
00:29:58,080 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 2: knows they're waiting for it.

601
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 1: Absolutely. It's also so interesting that you've personally been fascinated

602
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 1: in gender and how that you know the differences in

603
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 1: what is expected and the social constructs of femininity and

604
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 1: masculinity for a long time, but particularly now mentioning things

605
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 1: like the traditional protector role the breadwinner and how that's

606
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 1: changing and incomes are changing, and then COVID there's just

607
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 1: a matrix of so much going on. But how important

608
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 1: do you think redefining masculinity is? But then also on

609
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 1: the flip side, if you do become to mentally vulnerable,

610
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 1: like maybe that doesn't necessarily maybe that isn't the only

611
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 1: kind of answer or change that needs to happen. How

612
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 1: does that whole concept of masculinity play out in this landscape?

613
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:48,239
Speaker 2: So first and foremost, I talk about masculinities, which is

614
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 2: that there are plural, constantly contradicting, overlapping masculinities within each man.

615
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 2: And so when I talked about you know the fact

616
00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 2: that I was able to play for ball and then

617
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 2: go and do drama, It's like, and that's moment to

618
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 2: moment shifts in the way that I am going from

619
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 2: banter to crime, you know, from watching Disney to having

620
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 2: a beer with my mates. It's like, how can we

621
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 2: understand that there are multiple ways of being and that

622
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 2: traditional masculinity, you know that is represented in stoic self reliance,

623
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 2: you know, keep everything to yourself and provider protector. That

624
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 2: type of stuff is one of many, many masculinities. And importantly,

625
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 2: the idea that that type of traditional masculinity is fundamentally toxic,

626
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 2: which is you know what the media uses as a term,

627
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 2: in my experience, is an extremely dangerous approach because calling

628
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 2: out whole construct as toxic means that instead of attacking

629
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 2: certain behaviors and trying to minimize those, it alienates a

630
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 2: large group of men who are already pretty fucking angry,

631
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,480
Speaker 2: who are ready on the fringe. Just so sid you're

632
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 2: going to go on four and eighth chan and hide

633
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 2: yourself even more because we don't want to hear about

634
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 2: any of this stuff. It's very difficult, but the key

635
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 2: to my profession is to bring those people out of

636
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 2: the darkness and to engage in a conversation with them,

637
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 2: you know, the people that we need to engage with.

638
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 2: Most are not the woke dudes of Fitzro and BONDI.

639
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 2: It's not necessary. They're on board. We need to find

640
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 2: the other guys who are not engaged, who are feeling victimized,

641
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 2: and we need to speak to them about why they

642
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 2: feel victimized and allow a conversation. And so I talk

643
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 2: about flexible masculinity. The idea of being stoic and self

644
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 2: reliant is incredibly important in many situations. It actually is

645
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 2: such a protective factor for so many men. I think

646
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 2: it's why we don't suffer from depression of anxiety necessarily

647
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 2: at the rates that women do, because we are told

648
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 2: to have a stiff up lip every once in a while,

649
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 2: and it can be useful. If you are a fireman

650
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 2: and you are going into a burning building, you cannot

651
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 2: break down. You just can't do that. You should come out, though,

652
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 2: and sit down and cry about it and tell us

653
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,480
Speaker 2: what happened and debrief. You know, time and place is

654
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 2: really really important, and so we don't want to throw

655
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 2: the baby out with the bath water. Everyone is so

656
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 2: afraid that we're trying to turn men into women, and

657
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 2: it's like, no, we've been trying to turn women into

658
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 2: men for how many years. It's like there has to

659
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 2: be an understanding that there are benefits to all of this.

660
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 2: We need to find what is useful and what is harmful,

661
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 2: and we need to go have a self reflective capacity

662
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 2: to go all right, what is going to benefit me

663
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 2: in this certain circumstance And I'm not going to be

664
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 2: rigid here, you know, more yoga for everyone.

665
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 3: Straight up. We just need flexibility.

666
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 2: We need the understanding that in a certain time and place,

667
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 2: you don't need to be the same guy. You don't

668
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 2: need to be the same guy every fucking time. It's

669
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 2: not working for you. And so if you just stick

670
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 2: to your guns and continue to respond in the same way,

671
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 2: you know, we say, it's a definition of stupidity. You

672
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 2: need to understand that a different situation requires different responses

673
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:13,920
Speaker 2: and so flexible masculinities that are rebranded in a way

674
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:17,320
Speaker 2: that speak to men, not about men, not at men.

675
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 2: But go, hey, guys, the Joe Rogan's and Jordan Peterson's

676
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,799
Speaker 2: of the world don't actually have your best interests at heart.

677
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:26,239
Speaker 2: You know, they are just trying to get you to

678
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 2: hold on for dear life. We have another way of

679
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:34,759
Speaker 2: being which is focused on understanding what you're capable of.

680
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 2: And the problem, full stop, is that no one is

681
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 2: telling men what they should be, what they can be.

682
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,279
Speaker 2: Everyone is saying, don't do that, don't do this. Yeah,

683
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 2: and so they go, all right, I can't do anything.

684
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:47,279
Speaker 2: I can't do anything right. And you wonder why we

685
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 2: have no men engaged in the Me too movement in

686
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 2: climate change, in any of these activism spaces, because they're

687
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 2: terrified of saying the wrong thing, of doing the wrong thing,

688
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,080
Speaker 2: when in fact they should be central. They need to

689
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,800
Speaker 2: be standing up, you know, given this whole abortion situation

690
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 2: that's going on at the moment, it's like, how can

691
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:10,280
Speaker 2: we have men understanding that they can have a voice

692
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 2: in fairness, you know, in all of these really important

693
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:19,280
Speaker 2: conversations in ways that are actually going to benefit them.

694
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 2: And I don't think we're selling it well enough. And

695
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 2: that's something that my member is really trying to do,

696
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 2: is trying to sell health and well being to men

697
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:28,319
Speaker 2: and package it.

698
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 3: We call it health by stealth.

699
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:33,800
Speaker 2: I'm going to package it in a way that's potentially

700
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 2: it's got bad to it's funny, it's humorous, whatever it

701
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 2: may be. But then you're in and you can understand

702
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 2: that there are different ways of going about this.

703
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:44,879
Speaker 1: I think two things really stand out to me there.

704
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 1: I often, like on International Women's Day, for example, often

705
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 1: call out like obviously all the strong women around me,

706
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 1: but the male feminists because it's the fathers and the

707
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:55,879
Speaker 1: brothers and the best friends. And you know, I think,

708
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:58,200
Speaker 1: as you mentioned, men are half the population. They need

709
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:01,239
Speaker 1: to be part of every conversation that affects women and

710
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 1: men and everyone. You know, it's not that there are

711
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 1: forums where they just have to sit out altogether because

712
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 1: they're men. They have a huge role to play if

713
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:12,759
Speaker 1: they can, you know, understand the right language to use,

714
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:14,880
Speaker 1: in the right approaches to make. But also the idea

715
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 1: that when we talk about redefining masculinity, and I've probably

716
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 1: done this in past episodes in this week, talked maybe

717
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 1: in a way that too much invalidates the typical A

718
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:29,120
Speaker 1: type masculine traits as like move away from those like

719
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:31,839
Speaker 1: you should be more vulnerable, you should be able to cry,

720
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:33,279
Speaker 1: and like, yes, you should be able to do those things,

721
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 1: but that doesn't mean you can't also maintain the other

722
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 1: parts of you that are part of your identity as

723
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 1: a man. There are a type men out there. It's

724
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 1: also incredibly attractive when they're you know, those traits are

725
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,279
Speaker 1: traditionally what women have gone for. So I like that

726
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 1: you're not invalidating that's the whole spectrum of masculinity is

727
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 1: still valid. It's just you don't need to live at

728
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 1: this end all the time.

729
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 3: Exactly. Pick your time, you know, and understand what room.

730
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 1: You're in, babes, read the room, the.

731
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 2: Room and what is needed, you know. So yeah, I

732
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:08,920
Speaker 2: totally believe and I believe fundamentally that men are capable

733
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 2: of this. I've witnessed it. And the idea the middle

734
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 2: aged men are just beyond our ability to change anything,

735
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:17,719
Speaker 2: I just I don't buy into that either. This whole

736
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 2: idea that we just need to change to the next

737
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 2: generation and give up on the boomers. It's like, no,

738
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:25,319
Speaker 2: I need to find a way. It's exhausting because they

739
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 2: end up at dinner parties with fifty to sixty year

740
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 2: old men who were just But I will not give

741
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 2: up on that because they have such an important role

742
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 2: with their sons and grandsons as well, and I want

743
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 2: them to be the role models that we need in

744
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 2: society that we do not have. We have Harvey Weinstein

745
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 2: and Donald Trump just spamming our newsfeed? Where are the

746
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:50,280
Speaker 2: positive male role models that are everywhere every day incredible

747
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 2: dads or anyone wants to watch on TikTok and Instagram.

748
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 2: Are beautiful dads with their daughters doing incredible shit. You know,

749
00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,319
Speaker 2: it's and where is that? We need more of that?

750
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:00,440
Speaker 2: Everyone wants to see it.

751
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 1: Absolutely. Some of my favorite accounts are the dad and

752
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 1: daughter duo is doing like dance move that It's just

753
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:09,240
Speaker 1: so wholesome and beautiful. But it's funny that we gravitate

754
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 1: so strongly towards that because it feels rare, like it

755
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 1: feels like that's not as common, or like that's particularly

756
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 1: different and special.

757
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 3: But yeah, what is that say about society?

758
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 2: Because we have this stereotype that men are going to

759
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:25,200
Speaker 2: be aloof and Homo Simpson types, and if we continue

760
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:28,239
Speaker 2: to perpetuate that, you end up with dads being like,

761
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 2: oh should I not be changing the diaper and doing

762
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,759
Speaker 2: her braids? And you know, it's like, where does this

763
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 2: stuff come from? And what can we do every time

764
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:40,480
Speaker 2: to go, hey, wait a minute, we don't buy into that,

765
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:41,400
Speaker 2: Let's do it differently.

766
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, this episode of CZA is brought to you by

767
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 1: Stan and their exclusive news series Everything I Know About Love.

768
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769
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770
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776
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777
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Speaker 1: Well, it's also interesting you said that there are many

783
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 1: different ways to go about this, and you are, you know,

784
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,280
Speaker 1: the embodiment of that in that you're not just doing

785
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 1: one thing, You're sort of tackling it through your roles

786
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:43,400
Speaker 1: with lots of different organizations. So there's November, there's the

787
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:46,280
Speaker 1: Black Dog Institute, Men in Mind Project. You're a senior

788
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 1: research fellow at Origin at Melbourne UNI, and that's I

789
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 1: mean I don't even know how you're standing up, but

790
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:55,239
Speaker 1: to talk us through the different angles and lenses and

791
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,239
Speaker 1: projects that you're doing, and the different ways that they

792
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:02,239
Speaker 1: target ways to improve and to reduce the staggering rates

793
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 1: of male suicide firstly, but also to to sort of

794
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:07,359
Speaker 1: make these shifts on a societal level, and also how

795
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,760
Speaker 1: we could get involved, how anyone listening if they either

796
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 1: have a male in their life who maybe needs these

797
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,800
Speaker 1: resources or who just want to be part of positive

798
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 1: change and learning how to do better. You know, talk

799
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 1: us through all all your different roles for sure.

800
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:25,759
Speaker 3: So go on. My day to day is just who

801
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:26,839
Speaker 3: knows what's going to happen.

802
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:30,279
Speaker 1: It's pretty fun, a mess, right, A hot man.

803
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:32,280
Speaker 2: Everyone wants to help out organizing my diary.

804
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 3: Please just call so.

805
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 1: I'll just give out your number. That don't really help.

806
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:42,399
Speaker 3: So yeah, after hours, I do therapy, so.

807
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 1: You still do your normal psychology.

808
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 2: Myself in my spare time. I have to, like, it's

809
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 2: fundamental to my way of working. And it's also you know,

810
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,480
Speaker 2: I continue to criticize talking heads, and so I cannot

811
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:57,879
Speaker 2: be a talking head without I can be a talking head,

812
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 2: but without understanding what is happening on the ground, like

813
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 2: if you are separated from you know, the boys and

814
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:09,040
Speaker 2: men in our community who are angry and who are upset,

815
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:12,520
Speaker 2: and who are you know, struggling with constantly changing. You know,

816
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 2: there was a huge body image issue that went on

817
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 2: during COVID Books of Zoom. You know, everyone was talking

818
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:19,759
Speaker 2: about young women and no one was talking about what

819
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:21,319
Speaker 2: young men were going through. And so I was like,

820
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 2: I need to be seeing clients and being clear on

821
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 2: what is happening because I can just continue to it'

822
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 2: tout the same shit over and over. But then I

823
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:33,640
Speaker 2: start to just believe that my own voice, you know,

824
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:36,319
Speaker 2: is always right and is always what's going on. And

825
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 2: the best thing is when I do all of this research,

826
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:41,840
Speaker 2: I do all of these papers and start to understand

827
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 2: what's going on. And then I get into a session

828
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:47,960
Speaker 2: with a sixteen year old and they don't care. They

829
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 2: just don't care. And it's not even that they don't care.

830
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 2: It's like I'll have a client who's playing a video

831
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:55,839
Speaker 2: game while in session with me, with his back turn

832
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 2: to me, grunting, and I just get so frustrated. I'm like,

833
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 2: I'm suppose to be good at this, and he goes yep, sure.

834
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm waiting. You take your time, Zack. You just

835
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:09,360
Speaker 1: take your time, humbling.

836
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 2: It's so important as well. And that's so that's what

837
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:14,359
Speaker 2: the clinical world offers me. So I see a few

838
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:16,279
Speaker 2: clients here and there, and I only really take on

839
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:19,279
Speaker 2: those who have had a really shit time. Lots of

840
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:21,879
Speaker 2: people have had and sought lots and lots of help

841
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:25,359
Speaker 2: along the way with various psychologists. As you can probably tell,

842
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 2: they don't necessarily fit into the box of you know,

843
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:31,719
Speaker 2: what a psychologist maybe stereotypically looks like. And so I

844
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:34,480
Speaker 2: will take on those at risk and those you know,

845
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 2: who have tried almost everything. So that's kind of my

846
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:41,239
Speaker 2: criteria for new clients because they don't have a lot

847
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:44,240
Speaker 2: of time, and so that's what I do after hours.

848
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 2: But during the day I'm at the mustache factory. Mostly

849
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 2: my member is misunderstood I think by many, you know,

850
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 2: as being purely and everyone always asks what do you

851
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:57,200
Speaker 2: do the other eleven months of the year and grow

852
00:42:57,239 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 2: out my beard to shave it later on?

853
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 1: I'm sure that gets really old really quickly. You need

854
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 1: to call it like mo all year, just like a

855
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:11,800
Speaker 1: rebrand that word, so that the misconception is dies forever exactly.

856
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 2: But there is so much that is that is going

857
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 2: on in our organization because we raise so much money

858
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:20,400
Speaker 2: during that month that you know, we have to be

859
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:23,279
Speaker 2: able to make sure that we are having impact. And

860
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:26,319
Speaker 2: so I try to be across as much as I

861
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:29,840
Speaker 2: can in the mental health and suicide prevention space at November,

862
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:33,960
Speaker 2: where we really try to target social connection. We really,

863
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:36,719
Speaker 2: you know, focus heavily on We've got this new program

864
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 2: looking at men building better relationships and you know, trying

865
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:43,880
Speaker 2: to give men the skills and the communication ability to

866
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 2: get on top of this stuff before shit hits the fan.

867
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 2: We've got a tool called November Conversations, which is you know,

868
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 2: really focused on all right, you've got a guy who

869
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:54,800
Speaker 2: doesn't want to talk to you, but you know he's struggling.

870
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:57,440
Speaker 2: What are some conversation starters to go and start to

871
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 2: you know, actually enter what's going on and chat with

872
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 2: him about it in a way that's hopefully going to

873
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 2: be male friendly. For instance, and most importantly, my program

874
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:13,759
Speaker 2: called Men in Mind is focused on upskilling psychologists, counselors,

875
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:15,880
Speaker 2: social workers, anyone that you're going to come across in

876
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 2: the mental health space to better understand male distress, to

877
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 2: better understand male suicidality, to create a space that men

878
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:26,960
Speaker 2: want to be in, because we've got staggering rates of

879
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 2: dropout from treatment. It's above like forty percent of men

880
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:32,360
Speaker 2: leave treatment and don't kill anyone.

881
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:34,320
Speaker 3: What's going on exactly?

882
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 2: So think about how much money and time it takes

883
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 2: to get every guy in and they come in the door,

884
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 2: and then we just leave them and hope that it

885
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:43,600
Speaker 2: works out. And this was my initial pitch to November

886
00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 2: when I got the first job. I said to them,

887
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:48,919
Speaker 2: you keep telling men to open up, to seek help,

888
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:51,319
Speaker 2: to do more, and then you just hope for the

889
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 2: best when they get in there. You need to make

890
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:56,760
Speaker 2: sure that the care that they're receiving hits the spot.

891
00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:00,400
Speaker 2: And so I upskill. I train practitioners across the and

892
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:03,520
Speaker 2: hopefully soon enough across the world to know what to

893
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:06,480
Speaker 2: look out for, to question their own gender and how

894
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:10,080
Speaker 2: it interacts with the client, to know the interactions between

895
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:14,799
Speaker 2: masculinity and depression, and to just start to really push

896
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:18,880
Speaker 2: harder at engaging the male clients and realizing that this

897
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 2: is an opportunity, a missed opportunity really often, and there

898
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 2: is a really short window that you can connect with

899
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:29,320
Speaker 2: these guys and so don't go and get a list

900
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 2: of stuff that you need to tick off, sit down

901
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:34,719
Speaker 2: and be human with him, you know, understand what's going on,

902
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:37,680
Speaker 2: and connect with him in a way that he hasn't

903
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 2: been able to previously. So that's what happens that November.

904
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:44,319
Speaker 2: I'm very lucky to get to do opportunities like this

905
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:47,240
Speaker 2: and work with Little Lemon and all of our awesome

906
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:51,919
Speaker 2: partners across the board, just trying to bring a bit

907
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 2: of depth and humanity to this conversation. You know, I've

908
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 2: got my own lived experience with depression and suicidality in

909
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 2: my family, and it's something that you know, while it's

910
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:03,800
Speaker 2: not necessarily why I got into this work, it's definitely

911
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:06,920
Speaker 2: something that continues to drive me, including you know, all

912
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 2: of the other men that I get to the privilege

913
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 2: to work with every day. You know, there is a

914
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 2: lot of pain out there, and I'm not here to

915
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:19,319
Speaker 2: just share that with everyone, and you know, I'm here

916
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:22,920
Speaker 2: to share the hope that there is another way of being.

917
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:27,360
Speaker 2: There are so many opportunities for change and for growth

918
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:30,880
Speaker 2: and for connection, and so that's what November affords me.

919
00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 2: A community, you know, We've got millions of men who

920
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:37,839
Speaker 2: we connect with over a joke. But after that, God,

921
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:40,839
Speaker 2: the stuff that happens throughout the year the incredible. You know,

922
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:43,319
Speaker 2: We've got ultra marathon runners that I get to go

923
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 2: and talk with. We've got incredible community members who are

924
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:50,799
Speaker 2: just willing to put their heart on their sleeve and

925
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:53,880
Speaker 2: share what they've been through. I just really hope that

926
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 2: we're going to get to the point where we don't

927
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:58,759
Speaker 2: need our ambassadors to be those who have lost a

928
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 2: friend or a family member to suicide. There's something about

929
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 2: the men's health space that means men only get on

930
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 2: board once they've lost a mate. That doesn't make sense

931
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:10,480
Speaker 2: to me. I don't get the lack of proactivity here.

932
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:14,240
Speaker 2: There is so much waiting for crisis, waiting for disaster,

933
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:17,240
Speaker 2: and that's across the board. If you look at help seeking,

934
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:20,680
Speaker 2: guys are only going to attend ed or a psychologist

935
00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:22,960
Speaker 2: when everything is up in the air and they've lost it.

936
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:27,440
Speaker 2: Why can't we see this as something to do preemptively,

937
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:33,520
Speaker 2: as getting ahead of the potholes before your tire bursts.

938
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:36,680
Speaker 2: It's raining and you have to get out, and you know,

939
00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 2: I just don't understand why we can't have men realizing

940
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 2: that there is so much opportunity to have this conversation

941
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 2: when you're well. You know, recovery begins when you're well.

942
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:53,120
Speaker 2: The idea that there is you know, everything's fine, and

943
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:57,399
Speaker 2: we're in prevention stage. It's like since birth everyone has

944
00:47:57,440 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 2: had traumatic events happen.

945
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:01,839
Speaker 1: Then let's be honest, but when did it start for you?

946
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:04,600
Speaker 1: I came out of the womb and it was all

947
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 1: from that.

948
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 2: I saw the doctor and I was like, oh my god,

949
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:13,759
Speaker 2: what is that mustache? So life is tough, and it's

950
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:17,239
Speaker 2: always better out than in. A conversation is not the

951
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 2: end point by any means, but it is a great

952
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:23,440
Speaker 2: starting point. And so I do really hope that we're

953
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 2: going to get to a point where, you know, we

954
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:28,160
Speaker 2: get so many guys on board who are going, oh,

955
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:31,800
Speaker 2: this shit is important and I've felt this and I

956
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:35,439
Speaker 2: might not be feeling it right now, but someone else

957
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:38,000
Speaker 2: probably is. And so I'm going to do it not

958
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:40,840
Speaker 2: because somebody has passed away sadly, I'm going to do

959
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:42,320
Speaker 2: it so that someone doesn't.

960
00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:47,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that it's so reactive, like it is

961
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:50,280
Speaker 1: so common that the people you see out in society

962
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:51,919
Speaker 1: and the men you see out in the society. Really

963
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:54,560
Speaker 1: shouting from the rooftops of someone who have seen it happen,

964
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:57,360
Speaker 1: not someone who have seen it happen outside. You know,

965
00:48:57,440 --> 00:48:59,839
Speaker 1: I've heard a story and then become passionate. Is because

966
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 1: it's in their wheelhouse and they can see that it's real.

967
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:05,760
Speaker 1: A couple of things that came up in previous episodes

968
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:08,239
Speaker 1: on this topic that I found really useful as a

969
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 1: most sister in terms of making it easier for it

970
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:14,920
Speaker 1: to be a more proactive process was even little things

971
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:18,040
Speaker 1: like it's a mass generalization, of course to say all

972
00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 1: men feel this way, but that little things like having

973
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:24,360
Speaker 1: a conversation, and this might be for psychology generally, but

974
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 1: having deep conversations. Why do they always happen in cars?

975
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 1: It's because you're not looking at each other. Why do

976
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:33,239
Speaker 1: they happen when you're walking, or when you're cycling with

977
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 1: a friend, or when you're doing some other thing where

978
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:37,880
Speaker 1: you're not looking at each other across a table, And

979
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:39,960
Speaker 1: it's because it's a lot easier to open up when

980
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:42,080
Speaker 1: you don't have to make eye contact. There's like a

981
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 1: buffer that allows you to be a bit vulnerable and

982
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:47,400
Speaker 1: not have to be like even though a car is

983
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:50,799
Speaker 1: a really intimate space sometimes, you know, I find when

984
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 1: I want to bring up something with Nick or I noticed,

985
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:57,360
Speaker 1: you know, he's had a really really challenging family situation

986
00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:00,160
Speaker 1: over the past sort of five years with brain cancer,

987
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:04,640
Speaker 1: and he struggles a lot with the masculinity of opening up.

988
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:07,520
Speaker 1: So I know, don't bring that up at breakfast when

989
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:10,400
Speaker 1: you're facing each other. It's never going to work. Do

990
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:13,200
Speaker 1: it in the car. And a small like a tiny,

991
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 1: small tweak of understanding his psychology around vulnerability and the

992
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:21,919
Speaker 1: buffer that a car and him also concentrating on something else,

993
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:25,320
Speaker 1: like your client being on the game while they're talking

994
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:27,960
Speaker 1: to you. That buffer, I think helps a lot of

995
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:31,000
Speaker 1: men feel like they're doing something else, like almost trick

996
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:33,600
Speaker 1: themselves into being vulnerable and not feel like it's weird.

997
00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:37,920
Speaker 1: That has helped us enormously, So like small tweaks about

998
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:41,480
Speaker 1: timing and forum can be enormously helpful. Are there any

999
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:45,000
Speaker 1: other small things like that, or wording or the way

1000
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:47,279
Speaker 1: you bring things up that you recommend to people who

1001
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:49,000
Speaker 1: don't know how to help start a conversation.

1002
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:51,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, that idea that they need to fit into our

1003
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:55,399
Speaker 2: box is something that has been so problematic for so long,

1004
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:59,120
Speaker 2: whether it's in therapy, friendships, relationships, it's like, no, no, no,

1005
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:01,680
Speaker 2: this is how I do honerability. So why don't you

1006
00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:04,680
Speaker 2: match me? You know, I sit down and I'm going

1007
00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:06,239
Speaker 2: to talk to you one on one for an hour

1008
00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:08,520
Speaker 2: and what do you mean You're not willing to engage?

1009
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 2: How dare you the idea that you get into nick psychology?

1010
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:14,319
Speaker 2: You know, and you go, all right, there's a time

1011
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:16,680
Speaker 2: and a place for this, and I need to understand

1012
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 2: that if I push it at the wrong time, that's

1013
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 2: really disadvantageous. It's really going to get me, you know,

1014
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:27,719
Speaker 2: further away from my goal. Rather than going, oh he

1015
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:30,600
Speaker 2: doesn't care, he doesn't, you know, think about this stuff.

1016
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 2: He doesn't want to engage, he don't you know, all

1017
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:37,560
Speaker 2: of those ideas are really not helpful in that in

1018
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:41,040
Speaker 2: that setting, rather trying to get into his shoes and

1019
00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:43,920
Speaker 2: go what's going on for him? Why might he not

1020
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:45,800
Speaker 2: want to? And so we talk a lot about shoulder

1021
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:49,160
Speaker 2: to shoulder sharing it at November. You know, he said

1022
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:50,919
Speaker 2: I to eye a shoulder to shoulder.

1023
00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:52,320
Speaker 1: And oh it's an actual word.

1024
00:51:53,719 --> 00:51:55,000
Speaker 3: Knew you knew what was happening.

1025
00:51:56,680 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just like drop that pretended that I didn't know.

1026
00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:01,960
Speaker 1: Everyone like, yeah, what's that thing where you's just kind

1027
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:04,120
Speaker 1: of like stand next to each other with your shoulders

1028
00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:07,279
Speaker 1: kind of near each other exactly. No, I didn't know

1029
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:08,399
Speaker 1: that was an actual term.

1030
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:10,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, And this is the thing. So many people have

1031
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:14,280
Speaker 2: this like implicit understanding, but there is so much research

1032
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:16,920
Speaker 2: that underpins lots of this stuff. And so you know,

1033
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:19,480
Speaker 2: for instance, I've got a ping pomp table in my

1034
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:21,759
Speaker 2: in my clinic. If your hands are busy. That's where

1035
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:23,920
Speaker 2: men Cheds came from, the idea that you can do

1036
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:27,319
Speaker 2: carpentry or or you know, baking pies. We've we've got

1037
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:30,799
Speaker 2: a pie baking group of old mates at November that

1038
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:34,400
Speaker 2: we fund and it's incredible, I know, it's beautiful. And

1039
00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:37,160
Speaker 2: there are so many different opportunities where you can get

1040
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:40,600
Speaker 2: guys and it's not trying to trick them, you know,

1041
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:44,040
Speaker 2: it's just getting them into a comfortable space to open up.

1042
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:46,440
Speaker 2: And they may not describe things in ways that make

1043
00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:48,680
Speaker 2: sense to you. It may not be as deep for

1044
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:51,239
Speaker 2: you as it is for them. And that's something that

1045
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:53,719
Speaker 2: I've really had to come to terms with. I've been

1046
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:56,880
Speaker 2: in sessions or in chats with various people along the

1047
00:52:56,880 --> 00:53:01,479
Speaker 2: way and they feel like they are raveling in front

1048
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:03,640
Speaker 2: of me, and I'm like, you haven't even touched the side.

1049
00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:07,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, this is a Monday for meious, this

1050
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:08,719
Speaker 1: is just Monday night.

1051
00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:11,520
Speaker 3: A need to understand that. It's like it looks different

1052
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:12,280
Speaker 3: in different people.

1053
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:15,320
Speaker 2: And so, you know, always when you're starting a conversation

1054
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:19,680
Speaker 2: with a guy, the idea of burdensomeness, which is a

1055
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:23,040
Speaker 2: tough word to say, but it's the idea of they

1056
00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:25,200
Speaker 2: often feel like they are a burden and that's why

1057
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:27,120
Speaker 2: they want to open up about what's going on because

1058
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:28,920
Speaker 2: they don't want to put it on you. Little do

1059
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:31,120
Speaker 2: they know that if they actually just release it, everyone

1060
00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:33,440
Speaker 2: will be a lot better off. But you know that's

1061
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:37,239
Speaker 2: another step. So you never want to say, you know,

1062
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:40,520
Speaker 2: what you're doing to me is making me feel blah

1063
00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:42,759
Speaker 2: blah blah blah blah. It's making me feel worse. You know,

1064
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:45,040
Speaker 2: you need to open up. I don't know what's going on.

1065
00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:48,240
Speaker 2: You're stressing me out. You know, that type of stuff

1066
00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:52,120
Speaker 2: is really not useful. The key often to getting guys

1067
00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:55,080
Speaker 2: to talk is self disclosure. You know, and no one

1068
00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 2: actually says you're always trying to get a guy to

1069
00:53:57,080 --> 00:54:00,040
Speaker 2: talk because he's struggling with something. You don't ever go so,

1070
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:02,360
Speaker 2: oh wait a second, I've got my own difficulties and

1071
00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:05,439
Speaker 2: maybe if I just share them, something might come good

1072
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:08,480
Speaker 2: there and doing it, especially if you're in a relationship,

1073
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:10,480
Speaker 2: if you share a lot with your partner. You want

1074
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:15,839
Speaker 2: to see the differences between true and performative vulnerability. Now,

1075
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:18,840
Speaker 2: I do a lot of performative vulnerability. I can just

1076
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:20,840
Speaker 2: rattle this shit off and everyone's like, oh my god,

1077
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:24,560
Speaker 2: you know, versus saying something that I haven't thought through

1078
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:27,719
Speaker 2: and packaged up with a bow and offered to them

1079
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:30,800
Speaker 2: in a really raw and authentic way. That's what hits

1080
00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:33,080
Speaker 2: and that's what they know. They can everyone can tell

1081
00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:35,640
Speaker 2: the difference between this stuff, and that's when you end

1082
00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:40,120
Speaker 2: up getting true, raw vulnerability from someone is when you

1083
00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:43,000
Speaker 2: offer something to them as well. Something that happens a

1084
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:44,960
Speaker 2: lot in the men's mental space and I'm hoping is

1085
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:48,279
Speaker 2: going to change as well, is all of the role

1086
00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:53,520
Speaker 2: models are saying I suffered with depression, I had anxiety.

1087
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:57,440
Speaker 2: I know all of these guys, and they're not done.

1088
00:54:57,680 --> 00:55:00,160
Speaker 2: No one is done. We're on a constant journey of

1089
00:55:00,239 --> 00:55:03,719
Speaker 2: ups and downs. We live with depression or anxiety. It

1090
00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:05,879
Speaker 2: is something that is a part of us, and it's

1091
00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:08,600
Speaker 2: something that we can learn to love. It's often a superpower.

1092
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:12,000
Speaker 2: You know. My anxiety is the thing that drives much

1093
00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:13,880
Speaker 2: of my work in many ways, but it's also the

1094
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:16,440
Speaker 2: thing that allows me to be empathetic and care for

1095
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:20,319
Speaker 2: others and want more for people. And so continuing to

1096
00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:22,640
Speaker 2: demonize this thing and wanting it out of our way,

1097
00:55:23,080 --> 00:55:25,040
Speaker 2: it means that all the rugby players who are so

1098
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:29,440
Speaker 2: lucky to have on board often talk about I overcame

1099
00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:31,799
Speaker 2: this journey, and they're only willing to share it once

1100
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:34,839
Speaker 2: they think they're past it. They'll never share it when

1101
00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:37,600
Speaker 2: they're in the depths. They'll never share, you know, when

1102
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:40,120
Speaker 2: they feel like they're at the start of another bout

1103
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:42,839
Speaker 2: of something. And that means that lots of guys are

1104
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:45,919
Speaker 2: looking out at this then and going, oh, he got

1105
00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:48,799
Speaker 2: over it, but I'm feeling shit now, So how am

1106
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:50,759
Speaker 2: I supposed to do that? So a call out to

1107
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:54,680
Speaker 2: all the dads, especially when we're talking about experiences, you know,

1108
00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:58,680
Speaker 2: when we're talking about sharing with our kids, it's really

1109
00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:02,360
Speaker 2: problematic when you go, oh, when I was a teenager,

1110
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:04,319
Speaker 2: I felt like I had no idea what was going on?

1111
00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:09,359
Speaker 2: We still have no fucking idea what's going on? Well,

1112
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:13,000
Speaker 2: let's let's be clear about that and so sharing. You know,

1113
00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:16,040
Speaker 2: there's this idea that when you're offering advice, that you

1114
00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:18,160
Speaker 2: need to know exactly how.

1115
00:56:18,120 --> 00:56:19,719
Speaker 3: You've gotten through it.

1116
00:56:19,719 --> 00:56:22,480
Speaker 2: It's a constant journey, it's constantly changing, and if we

1117
00:56:22,520 --> 00:56:24,919
Speaker 2: can get men to understand that there are these ups

1118
00:56:24,920 --> 00:56:27,080
Speaker 2: and downs and to talk about it in that way,

1119
00:56:27,560 --> 00:56:30,760
Speaker 2: it'll alleviate so much distress for guys who are going

1120
00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:32,840
Speaker 2: I felt good yesterday, but I'm not today.

1121
00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:33,719
Speaker 3: I'm not allowed that.

1122
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:37,880
Speaker 2: Though because I thought i'd need it. There's constant I overcame,

1123
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:41,880
Speaker 2: you know, and this this survivor idea. So I'm hoping

1124
00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:43,880
Speaker 2: that we're going to get to the point where we

1125
00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:48,200
Speaker 2: can have this sharing of conversation that is based in reality,

1126
00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:51,200
Speaker 2: based in the current moment, and that it's focused on,

1127
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:54,120
Speaker 2: you know, belief that we can see this as a

1128
00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:57,520
Speaker 2: journey not to get over but to live with.

1129
00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:00,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, and something else you reminded me, I don't think

1130
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:04,319
Speaker 1: I've ever realized that this was a realization, but that

1131
00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:07,640
Speaker 1: I've been doing increasingly is knowing not to similarly to

1132
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:10,400
Speaker 1: knowing how to like the timing, and that I won't

1133
00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:12,200
Speaker 1: get what I want either. If I choose the forum

1134
00:57:12,239 --> 00:57:14,719
Speaker 1: that I would like, then I think that's going to

1135
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:16,880
Speaker 1: give me what I want, because if I was talking

1136
00:57:16,880 --> 00:57:18,680
Speaker 1: about what I was going through, that would help me.

1137
00:57:18,760 --> 00:57:20,640
Speaker 1: But I'm not going to get the right result either

1138
00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:22,800
Speaker 1: if I pick the wrong timing. And that links to

1139
00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:25,160
Speaker 1: the idea of like, you can't go into a conversation

1140
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:27,800
Speaker 1: like this for your own gratification, because I often go

1141
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:30,160
Speaker 1: into it thinking I want to feel better that I

1142
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:33,040
Speaker 1: have checked that he is okay, and so if I

1143
00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:36,440
Speaker 1: don't get the answer that I want or the same

1144
00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:39,400
Speaker 1: wording or expression that I would give, sometimes I'm like,

1145
00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:42,720
Speaker 1: well more like more, and he's like, I've given you

1146
00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:45,920
Speaker 1: the most expressive I ever am. So if you kind

1147
00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:48,320
Speaker 1: of let go of your gratification, you don't need to

1148
00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:51,440
Speaker 1: leave the conversation feeling like you've ticked your box of

1149
00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:53,320
Speaker 1: checking on them or you know, they don't need to

1150
00:57:53,320 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 1: give you the same language that you might give them

1151
00:57:56,200 --> 00:57:58,680
Speaker 1: back for it to still be really productive conversation. And

1152
00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:01,439
Speaker 1: that's helped me as well, go okay in my world

1153
00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:03,080
Speaker 1: that's a small step, but I've been in therapy for

1154
00:58:03,120 --> 00:58:05,960
Speaker 1: like eighteen years. You know, he's new to this and

1155
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:08,400
Speaker 1: he has a different way of saying things, and that's

1156
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:10,320
Speaker 1: a huge opening up for him. So I can leave

1157
00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:13,040
Speaker 1: it there, whereas I will sometimes go okay, more though,

1158
00:58:13,120 --> 00:58:15,240
Speaker 1: more though, and then that just makes him like, I'm

1159
00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:17,000
Speaker 1: never going to open up again because you won't accept

1160
00:58:17,080 --> 00:58:21,040
Speaker 1: what I say. So that's also helped enormously to change

1161
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:24,520
Speaker 1: my metrics for my mental health chats with him, because

1162
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:26,880
Speaker 1: mind are like hours and like deep and you know,

1163
00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:29,520
Speaker 1: explosive and like he's just never going to be like that.

1164
00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:31,800
Speaker 2: But the idea that he has to be, the idea

1165
00:58:31,840 --> 00:58:34,800
Speaker 2: that that is necessarily right for someone like him. Yeah,

1166
00:58:34,840 --> 00:58:36,680
Speaker 2: it's like, if he can do it in three minutes,

1167
00:58:37,640 --> 00:58:38,960
Speaker 2: go for gold, how good is that?

1168
00:58:39,040 --> 00:58:40,480
Speaker 1: I wish I could do it in three minutes.

1169
00:58:41,280 --> 00:58:43,200
Speaker 3: I think it's like it looks and sounds different.

1170
00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:46,120
Speaker 2: But if he knows what your expectations are, he'll just

1171
00:58:46,120 --> 00:58:47,160
Speaker 2: start feeding it to you.

1172
00:58:47,560 --> 00:58:50,040
Speaker 3: And yeah, that's even worse because that's that's when you

1173
00:58:50,160 --> 00:58:51,160
Speaker 3: end up with a mask on.

1174
00:58:51,560 --> 00:58:54,920
Speaker 2: And so yeah, that idea of accepting, you know, the

1175
00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:55,640
Speaker 2: truth of.

1176
00:58:55,560 --> 00:58:56,400
Speaker 3: What they're offering to you.

1177
00:58:56,560 --> 00:58:59,600
Speaker 2: You know, when someone is not offering you, you know

1178
00:59:00,240 --> 00:59:02,600
Speaker 2: answer for all intents and purposes, but you want to

1179
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:05,640
Speaker 2: get to the point where you can have that shared

1180
00:59:05,760 --> 00:59:09,480
Speaker 2: language with someone that looks really different and that molds

1181
00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:13,120
Speaker 2: to them. You know, That's what love is really, it's

1182
00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:17,040
Speaker 2: the ability to go all right. He is offering something

1183
00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:19,200
Speaker 2: that looks totally different to what I thought, but I'm

1184
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:20,720
Speaker 2: going to come to the table and I'm going to

1185
00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:22,280
Speaker 2: sit with that and I'm going to accept it for

1186
00:59:22,320 --> 00:59:24,760
Speaker 2: what it is, and then he will come to me

1187
00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:27,120
Speaker 2: when the time is right. And so I do a

1188
00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:29,000
Speaker 2: lot of that, where I just do little check ins

1189
00:59:29,040 --> 00:59:31,720
Speaker 2: with people, and then you always find two weeks later

1190
00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:34,800
Speaker 2: someone just gives me a call and goes, actually, this

1191
00:59:34,960 --> 00:59:37,280
Speaker 2: is what's happening, and I gave them the space, and

1192
00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:38,440
Speaker 2: that's what's really important.

1193
00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:41,400
Speaker 1: Well, I have gone over time already because I've found

1194
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:45,480
Speaker 1: this just so fascinating, so interesting too. I'm fascinated by

1195
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:48,840
Speaker 1: human psychology, and I think getting into it with an

1196
00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:52,400
Speaker 1: expert in this area helps even just these conversations and

1197
00:59:52,520 --> 00:59:55,040
Speaker 1: hearing language and new concepts and new approaches, I think

1198
00:59:55,080 --> 00:59:57,400
Speaker 1: helps other people start thinking about it a lot more

1199
00:59:57,440 --> 01:00:00,400
Speaker 1: in their own mind too. So thank you so much adjoining,

1200
01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:02,480
Speaker 1: But I just have a couple of finisher questions that

1201
01:00:02,560 --> 01:00:05,320
Speaker 1: are bringing it back to you really and you know

1202
01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:09,160
Speaker 1: the idea that you also have to find joy even

1203
01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:12,000
Speaker 1: if your work gives you an enormous amount of satisfaction

1204
01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:15,360
Speaker 1: and yay, particularly when it is in an area that's

1205
01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:19,080
Speaker 1: very outwardly focused, and that is a journey that you

1206
01:00:19,120 --> 01:00:20,600
Speaker 1: could get to the end of your lifetime and still

1207
01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:23,240
Speaker 1: feel like you'd scratch one percent of this. You know,

1208
01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:26,040
Speaker 1: this is an ongoing thing. It's not a binary yes

1209
01:00:26,160 --> 01:00:29,960
Speaker 1: or no, fixed or not fixed societal issue. You know,

1210
01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:33,040
Speaker 1: the irony of running any wellness businesses, your yours often

1211
01:00:33,040 --> 01:00:35,760
Speaker 1: falls to the bottom of the list. So how do

1212
01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:39,040
Speaker 1: you play or make time for you that's separate to

1213
01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:44,080
Speaker 1: psychology and humanity and you know the others, the other

1214
01:00:44,320 --> 01:00:47,960
Speaker 1: you know, everything that's not looking after yourself. And do

1215
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:51,000
Speaker 1: you sometimes push the boundary and find you burnout and

1216
01:00:51,360 --> 01:00:53,840
Speaker 1: end up in compassion fatigue or normal fatigue?

1217
01:00:53,880 --> 01:00:56,600
Speaker 2: Boy boy, Yes, Yeah, the past two years have been

1218
01:00:56,680 --> 01:01:01,320
Speaker 2: have been rough. Definitely, I felt extremely productive, but I

1219
01:01:01,360 --> 01:01:04,480
Speaker 2: am also very much reliant upon others energy and so

1220
01:01:04,600 --> 01:01:06,320
Speaker 2: not having that was very difficult.

1221
01:01:06,680 --> 01:01:06,880
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1222
01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:09,200
Speaker 2: Even last week, you know, I went to a conference

1223
01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:11,720
Speaker 2: that was a suicide prevention conference, and there was a

1224
01:01:11,760 --> 01:01:13,720
Speaker 2: lot of lived experience. There's a lot of a lot

1225
01:01:13,760 --> 01:01:16,400
Speaker 2: of people who had lost family members and multiple family

1226
01:01:16,440 --> 01:01:20,040
Speaker 2: members to suicide. And I have a narrative that I'm like, Yep,

1227
01:01:20,080 --> 01:01:22,240
Speaker 2: this is fine, I can do this. You know, everything's

1228
01:01:22,360 --> 01:01:25,240
Speaker 2: sweet exactly. And by the third day, I was like,

1229
01:01:26,160 --> 01:01:28,560
Speaker 2: I can't handle this, you know, and so I just

1230
01:01:28,600 --> 01:01:31,600
Speaker 2: went to the beach. And I always put up stuff

1231
01:01:31,600 --> 01:01:33,200
Speaker 2: on Instagram with me at the beach, and everyone's like, oh,

1232
01:01:33,200 --> 01:01:35,040
Speaker 2: you're always at the beach, and it's like, no, that's

1233
01:01:35,080 --> 01:01:37,520
Speaker 2: just what I decide to share because I think it's

1234
01:01:37,560 --> 01:01:40,480
Speaker 2: really important to know. I don't think I'm the best

1235
01:01:40,480 --> 01:01:43,520
Speaker 2: at always finding those boundaries before they creep up on me,

1236
01:01:44,520 --> 01:01:46,520
Speaker 2: because we always have this idea is like, no, I'm

1237
01:01:46,520 --> 01:01:49,720
Speaker 2: the helper. And so I also have a bit of

1238
01:01:49,720 --> 01:01:53,480
Speaker 2: a self martyrdom situation, like a bit of suffering is okay,

1239
01:01:53,640 --> 01:01:57,400
Speaker 2: and so I'll push myself a bit further than I

1240
01:01:57,440 --> 01:02:02,440
Speaker 2: maybe should. But strangely, one on one therapy always brings

1241
01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:04,800
Speaker 2: me back doing a little bit of it. But you know,

1242
01:02:04,840 --> 01:02:06,360
Speaker 2: I used to do seven eight hours a day that

1243
01:02:06,440 --> 01:02:08,360
Speaker 2: was far too much. Now I only have a few

1244
01:02:08,440 --> 01:02:11,320
Speaker 2: a few sessions a week, but just getting out of

1245
01:02:11,320 --> 01:02:13,160
Speaker 2: my own head. You know, it's such a privilege to

1246
01:02:13,200 --> 01:02:15,720
Speaker 2: be able to sit in someone else's life for a

1247
01:02:15,720 --> 01:02:18,120
Speaker 2: little bit, you know, and it's it's kind of selfish

1248
01:02:18,160 --> 01:02:20,800
Speaker 2: in many ways, but the ability to solve someone else's

1249
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:22,360
Speaker 2: problems rather than my own is.

1250
01:02:22,280 --> 01:02:23,880
Speaker 3: An enjoyable one. But I run.

1251
01:02:24,360 --> 01:02:26,840
Speaker 2: It's a horrible answer to all of those who hate exercise.

1252
01:02:26,920 --> 01:02:30,360
Speaker 2: But you never want to come across, is that, like

1253
01:02:30,440 --> 01:02:31,600
Speaker 2: Tony Robbins, just go.

1254
01:02:32,080 --> 01:02:34,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wake up at three am and I do

1255
01:02:34,080 --> 01:02:39,400
Speaker 1: an ice bath and then I so I know, No,

1256
01:02:39,560 --> 01:02:40,600
Speaker 1: you've got to have your theme.

1257
01:02:40,960 --> 01:02:44,080
Speaker 2: But running is like it's it takes a certain amount

1258
01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:46,040
Speaker 2: to get to the point where my mind shuts off

1259
01:02:46,040 --> 01:02:49,680
Speaker 2: and shuts up. But just the feeling of my body

1260
01:02:49,920 --> 01:02:54,240
Speaker 2: in movement and in motion, just allowing things to loosen,

1261
01:02:54,320 --> 01:02:57,240
Speaker 2: I guess in some ways, you know. And obviously swimming

1262
01:02:57,280 --> 01:03:01,440
Speaker 2: also does the job. And nature full stuff. He's just

1263
01:03:01,440 --> 01:03:05,000
Speaker 2: just the best, but so restorative love, A good laugh

1264
01:03:05,120 --> 01:03:06,600
Speaker 2: that will always get me through a day.

1265
01:03:07,400 --> 01:03:10,640
Speaker 1: Okay, that's a really interesting one. What does you know,

1266
01:03:10,680 --> 01:03:13,480
Speaker 1: a director of my Vember laugh at Like, what is

1267
01:03:13,520 --> 01:03:17,160
Speaker 1: your other than friends? Obviously. What are your guilty pleasures?

1268
01:03:17,200 --> 01:03:18,960
Speaker 1: I assume you have some. Please tell me you have something.

1269
01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:20,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, what are my guilty pleasures?

1270
01:03:20,640 --> 01:03:20,720
Speaker 2: Like?

1271
01:03:20,840 --> 01:03:23,960
Speaker 1: Is it dumb? Coming? I love the Simpsons, okay.

1272
01:03:23,560 --> 01:03:26,160
Speaker 2: Like old school Simpsons, a bit of Family Guy still

1273
01:03:26,200 --> 01:03:27,200
Speaker 2: as well, it's weird.

1274
01:03:27,360 --> 01:03:28,160
Speaker 3: I don't know how.

1275
01:03:28,280 --> 01:03:29,160
Speaker 1: I love Family Guy.

1276
01:03:29,320 --> 01:03:32,240
Speaker 2: I always want to laugh at stuff, Like stuff that

1277
01:03:32,280 --> 01:03:33,960
Speaker 2: makes no sense is always hilarious to me.

1278
01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:36,240
Speaker 3: It's like, where did that come from? How did this happen?

1279
01:03:36,360 --> 01:03:38,640
Speaker 2: And I've got two friends who are pretty big comedians

1280
01:03:38,680 --> 01:03:42,880
Speaker 2: as well, and they they keep me constantly entertained, which

1281
01:03:42,920 --> 01:03:45,080
Speaker 2: is always good. But no, it's like that idea that

1282
01:03:45,120 --> 01:03:48,840
Speaker 2: I am just some Ivory Tower white coach is just

1283
01:03:48,960 --> 01:03:53,040
Speaker 2: absolute bullshit. So anything and everything makes me laugh and

1284
01:03:53,160 --> 01:03:56,520
Speaker 2: just trying to be just constantly engaged with humanity and

1285
01:03:56,640 --> 01:04:00,000
Speaker 2: disengaging from the sad state of politics and other things.

1286
01:04:00,040 --> 01:04:02,960
Speaker 2: Every once in a while, I'm just having a some

1287
01:04:02,960 --> 01:04:04,640
Speaker 2: some friends is just the best.

1288
01:04:04,840 --> 01:04:09,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. Second last question, three interesting things about you

1289
01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:11,000
Speaker 1: that don't normally come up in conversation.

1290
01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:15,280
Speaker 2: Okay, I do have a weird middle name. It starts

1291
01:04:15,280 --> 01:04:18,960
Speaker 2: with an E but doesn't sound like an E. It's Eugene.

1292
01:04:19,240 --> 01:04:20,160
Speaker 1: I like cutice.

1293
01:04:20,280 --> 01:04:23,600
Speaker 2: I know, I think to doctor Eugene's sideler because I

1294
01:04:23,600 --> 01:04:24,800
Speaker 2: just feel like that's way more.

1295
01:04:24,840 --> 01:04:25,560
Speaker 3: It's got depth.

1296
01:04:25,760 --> 01:04:28,600
Speaker 1: You know, it does have depth. It has a real depth.

1297
01:04:28,640 --> 01:04:30,560
Speaker 1: But you make yourself sound a lot older.

1298
01:04:30,680 --> 01:04:31,320
Speaker 3: Yeah that's true.

1299
01:04:31,560 --> 01:04:33,000
Speaker 1: Zach is very like up and coming.

1300
01:04:33,560 --> 01:04:34,520
Speaker 3: Just like ear hair.

1301
01:04:36,920 --> 01:04:38,320
Speaker 1: You need bigger eyebrows.

1302
01:04:38,440 --> 01:04:39,600
Speaker 3: They're getting there, don't worry.

1303
01:04:39,720 --> 01:04:40,680
Speaker 1: Do you watch It's Creek?

1304
01:04:40,920 --> 01:04:41,920
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1305
01:04:41,480 --> 01:04:45,600
Speaker 1: Okay, good, It's the Bay. Bay is like one of

1306
01:04:45,600 --> 01:04:48,120
Speaker 1: my favorite shows, so good that I laugh at.

1307
01:04:48,200 --> 01:04:50,959
Speaker 3: Of course you got it. So there's that. I also

1308
01:04:51,000 --> 01:04:53,120
Speaker 3: have a tattoo that I don't think many people have

1309
01:04:53,400 --> 01:04:55,520
Speaker 3: the same with. What is that life ring.

1310
01:04:58,000 --> 01:04:58,880
Speaker 1: Right on the biset?

1311
01:05:00,200 --> 01:05:01,880
Speaker 3: Got to remember to throw it out every once in

1312
01:05:01,960 --> 01:05:02,320
Speaker 3: a while.

1313
01:05:02,440 --> 01:05:04,880
Speaker 1: You get those guns out exactly.

1314
01:05:06,000 --> 01:05:08,480
Speaker 2: That's the second one. And what do I do it?

1315
01:05:08,560 --> 01:05:11,640
Speaker 2: Oh God, you don't want to hear what my I

1316
01:05:12,240 --> 01:05:14,440
Speaker 2: told you. I'm just a worst night merit a dinner bardy.

1317
01:05:14,600 --> 01:05:19,400
Speaker 2: I just just grill people endlessly about tell me about

1318
01:05:19,400 --> 01:05:19,960
Speaker 2: your childhood?

1319
01:05:19,960 --> 01:05:20,240
Speaker 4: Trump?

1320
01:05:20,280 --> 01:05:24,880
Speaker 3: Please, I want more of that. Can we have wine? Please?

1321
01:05:25,080 --> 01:05:27,000
Speaker 1: I say, this is what you're doing. Now, let's stick

1322
01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:29,600
Speaker 1: a little deeper into that, like this deflection thing.

1323
01:05:29,680 --> 01:05:31,440
Speaker 3: What's partner just go?

1324
01:05:31,560 --> 01:05:36,480
Speaker 1: Are you happy? Are you deeply satisfied in your relationship?

1325
01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:42,760
Speaker 1: Very last question, since I love quotes so much, what's

1326
01:05:42,800 --> 01:05:43,600
Speaker 1: your favorite quote?

1327
01:05:43,800 --> 01:05:46,680
Speaker 2: So I've actually got it on my on my desk

1328
01:05:46,680 --> 01:05:49,840
Speaker 2: over there. I think it's by Anthony Hopkins. It maybe

1329
01:05:49,920 --> 01:05:52,920
Speaker 2: have stolen, may be stolen by him, but it's today

1330
01:05:53,160 --> 01:05:55,800
Speaker 2: is the tomorrow I was so worried about yesterday.

1331
01:05:56,360 --> 01:05:57,640
Speaker 1: I love that one.

1332
01:05:58,000 --> 01:06:00,680
Speaker 3: It's so good because that's always that's just everything. It's

1333
01:06:00,760 --> 01:06:01,919
Speaker 3: like the key.

1334
01:06:01,960 --> 01:06:04,720
Speaker 2: And with my students, you know, and everyone that I

1335
01:06:04,800 --> 01:06:08,920
Speaker 2: work with, it's constantly trying to understand that the anxiety

1336
01:06:08,920 --> 01:06:11,800
Speaker 2: that you're going through now will always dissipate in the

1337
01:06:11,840 --> 01:06:14,080
Speaker 2: moment when you're just doing the thing that you love.

1338
01:06:14,160 --> 01:06:16,560
Speaker 2: And so I try my best to just not preempt

1339
01:06:16,560 --> 01:06:19,360
Speaker 2: things anymore and to just sit with where I'm at

1340
01:06:19,440 --> 01:06:22,680
Speaker 2: and realize. And I think that the key is is

1341
01:06:22,720 --> 01:06:26,200
Speaker 2: respecting your ability and knowing that you're going to be okay.

1342
01:06:26,400 --> 01:06:29,560
Speaker 2: So my greatest skill, I think, in many ways, is

1343
01:06:29,560 --> 01:06:31,920
Speaker 2: getting up on stage with no notes and talking for

1344
01:06:31,960 --> 01:06:32,560
Speaker 2: an hour.

1345
01:06:33,440 --> 01:06:36,120
Speaker 3: And I black out straight up. I have no idea.

1346
01:06:36,440 --> 01:06:38,240
Speaker 3: I'm in a fugue state. I have no idea.

1347
01:06:38,280 --> 01:06:40,440
Speaker 2: If I sit down and watch you're recording, I'm like, what,

1348
01:06:40,840 --> 01:06:41,840
Speaker 2: I have no idea what it.

1349
01:06:41,960 --> 01:06:42,439
Speaker 3: Was just said?

1350
01:06:43,320 --> 01:06:45,920
Speaker 2: Wow? So I just the more I do that now

1351
01:06:45,920 --> 01:06:50,200
Speaker 2: and pushing myself into uncomfortable situations means that I don't

1352
01:06:50,240 --> 01:06:53,880
Speaker 2: need to worry about what's coming tomorrow because I know

1353
01:06:53,960 --> 01:06:57,360
Speaker 2: that I'll handle it when it comes. And whether that's

1354
01:06:57,400 --> 01:07:00,640
Speaker 2: you know, resilience or some other buzzword going around at

1355
01:07:00,680 --> 01:07:02,720
Speaker 2: the moment, I just think that we need to we

1356
01:07:02,720 --> 01:07:04,080
Speaker 2: need to trust ourselves.

1357
01:07:03,720 --> 01:07:04,200
Speaker 3: A bit more.

1358
01:07:04,480 --> 01:07:08,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, I love that. I also love that concept

1359
01:07:08,080 --> 01:07:09,760
Speaker 1: of you know, there are a certain amount of emotions

1360
01:07:09,760 --> 01:07:11,560
Speaker 1: in your day that are inevitable, Like you're supposed to

1361
01:07:11,600 --> 01:07:13,120
Speaker 1: feel a certain amount, but you don't have to add

1362
01:07:13,160 --> 01:07:15,880
Speaker 1: any extra onto that. So another one that's that I

1363
01:07:15,880 --> 01:07:17,600
Speaker 1: love I can't remember who it's by, is that no

1364
01:07:17,680 --> 01:07:19,800
Speaker 1: amount of anxiety will change the future and no amount

1365
01:07:19,840 --> 01:07:22,640
Speaker 1: of regret will change the past. So like, you know,

1366
01:07:23,160 --> 01:07:25,520
Speaker 1: feel the emotions about right now that you need to feel,

1367
01:07:25,560 --> 01:07:28,600
Speaker 1: but the extra ones that are about tomorrow wiries today

1368
01:07:29,640 --> 01:07:32,000
Speaker 1: like they they're a waste. There's a finite amount of

1369
01:07:32,080 --> 01:07:34,160
Speaker 1: energy you've got, like stick with the stuff that you

1370
01:07:34,160 --> 01:07:37,480
Speaker 1: actually have to worry about for sure. Well, thank you

1371
01:07:37,560 --> 01:07:40,360
Speaker 1: so much, Zach Eugene whatever you want to go by

1372
01:07:40,400 --> 01:07:44,360
Speaker 1: from now on for joining us. This was a very

1373
01:07:44,440 --> 01:07:47,880
Speaker 1: enlightening and empowering conversation I think to help anyone listening

1374
01:07:47,960 --> 01:07:51,000
Speaker 1: understand the landscape a bit better and contributing to us

1375
01:07:51,040 --> 01:07:54,360
Speaker 1: all taking steps forward to you know, to learning the

1376
01:07:54,400 --> 01:07:57,680
Speaker 1: best ways to help men's health grow and improve your

1377
01:07:57,720 --> 01:07:59,520
Speaker 1: own ear And thank you for everything that you do.

1378
01:07:59,640 --> 01:08:02,800
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me, what a legend of a man

1379
01:08:02,880 --> 01:08:05,880
Speaker 1: doing such amazing work for men's mental health. Have included

1380
01:08:05,920 --> 01:08:09,200
Speaker 1: links to his page, the Lululemon Global Wellbeing Report, and

1381
01:08:09,280 --> 01:08:11,640
Speaker 1: other resources that we mentioned in the show notes. Please

1382
01:08:11,680 --> 01:08:14,400
Speaker 1: do check them out, and as we mentioned, never hesitate

1383
01:08:14,480 --> 01:08:17,200
Speaker 1: to reach out for help. I'm so grateful to have

1384
01:08:17,240 --> 01:08:19,760
Speaker 1: had some of doctor Zach's very scarce time, and I

1385
01:08:19,800 --> 01:08:23,240
Speaker 1: think this was such a thought provoking conversation, So please

1386
01:08:23,280 --> 01:08:25,760
Speaker 1: help thanking for his time and share it further by

1387
01:08:25,840 --> 01:08:29,120
Speaker 1: screenshrotting as you do so well and tagging at Zach

1388
01:08:29,200 --> 01:08:31,720
Speaker 1: Seidler and us so we can keep growing the neighborhood

1389
01:08:31,800 --> 01:08:34,640
Speaker 1: as far and wide as possible. In the meantime, I

1390
01:08:34,640 --> 01:08:37,800
Speaker 1: hope you are all looking after yourselves and seizing your

1391
01:08:37,880 --> 01:08:44,760
Speaker 1: yay