1 00:00:11,542 --> 00:00:16,182 Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges 2 00:00:16,222 --> 00:00:19,702 Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters. This podcast was 3 00:00:19,742 --> 00:00:28,742 Speaker 1: recorded on It's Just after nine thirty pm in Ontario, 4 00:00:28,902 --> 00:00:32,582 Speaker 1: Canada on November eight, twenty ten. And Jennifer Pan is 5 00:00:32,622 --> 00:00:35,382 Speaker 1: upstairs in her bedroom watching TV and chatting on the 6 00:00:35,382 --> 00:00:38,622 Speaker 1: phone to a friend. Her dad Hand is in the 7 00:00:38,662 --> 00:00:42,062 Speaker 1: study reading the Vietnamese news, and her mum Bick, is 8 00:00:42,102 --> 00:00:44,662 Speaker 1: soaking her feet in some warm water after her usual 9 00:00:44,742 --> 00:00:49,702 Speaker 1: Monday night line dancing class. Suddenly, her mum calls for 10 00:00:49,742 --> 00:00:53,542 Speaker 1: Hand to come downstairs, but she's speaking in English, which 11 00:00:53,542 --> 00:00:58,662 Speaker 1: is unusual. Jennifer hangs up her phone call and sits frozen. 12 00:00:59,342 --> 00:01:04,702 Speaker 1: She starts to hear mumbled, unfamiliar voices. When she eventually 13 00:01:04,742 --> 00:01:07,542 Speaker 1: plucks up the courage to open the door, a man 14 00:01:07,702 --> 00:01:11,822 Speaker 1: is standing in her doorway a gun. He ties her 15 00:01:11,862 --> 00:01:14,342 Speaker 1: hands behind her back and demands to know where is 16 00:01:14,342 --> 00:01:18,702 Speaker 1: the money. She quickly produces the two thousand dollars she's 17 00:01:18,742 --> 00:01:21,142 Speaker 1: been saving up to buy a new iPhone before a 18 00:01:21,182 --> 00:01:25,102 Speaker 1: second man appears and they force her into her parents bedroom. 19 00:01:25,502 --> 00:01:28,142 Speaker 1: As they find some cash in a bedside table, she 20 00:01:28,182 --> 00:01:30,622 Speaker 1: can hear her mother in another room being yelled at. 21 00:01:31,342 --> 00:01:35,942 Speaker 1: A third man is demanding her wallet. Then Jennifer is 22 00:01:35,982 --> 00:01:39,542 Speaker 1: tied to an upstairs banister while her parents are led 23 00:01:39,622 --> 00:01:44,502 Speaker 1: into the basement. You lied, you lied to us, she hears, 24 00:01:45,182 --> 00:01:49,542 Speaker 1: before two pops go off. Her mother screams. A few 25 00:01:49,582 --> 00:01:54,222 Speaker 1: more pops echo through the house. Jennifer manages to maneuver 26 00:01:54,302 --> 00:02:02,662 Speaker 1: herself to make a nine to one one call the 27 00:02:02,982 --> 00:02:11,382 Speaker 1: wonder man on me on what's going on? 28 00:02:15,822 --> 00:02:18,462 Speaker 2: Where are you any road? 29 00:02:26,302 --> 00:02:32,902 Speaker 1: Hello? But as police arrive at the ordinary suburban home 30 00:02:33,222 --> 00:02:37,662 Speaker 1: to find one person dead, one person seriously injured, three 31 00:02:37,702 --> 00:02:41,062 Speaker 1: people on the run, and a terrified Jennifer, what they're 32 00:02:41,102 --> 00:02:44,982 Speaker 1: about to discover is this crime is not as it seems. 33 00:02:53,342 --> 00:02:56,822 Speaker 1: I'm Jemma Bath and this is true Crime. Conversations Amom 34 00:02:56,862 --> 00:03:00,502 Speaker 1: of Mere podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by 35 00:03:00,542 --> 00:03:03,462 Speaker 1: speaking to the people who know the most about them. 36 00:03:03,822 --> 00:03:06,102 Speaker 1: Fifty three year old big Pan was shot dead in 37 00:03:06,142 --> 00:03:09,902 Speaker 1: her basement on that November evening in twenty ten. Her 38 00:03:09,982 --> 00:03:13,902 Speaker 1: husband was also shot. A bullet hit him in the face, 39 00:03:14,342 --> 00:03:16,862 Speaker 1: and he only lived because it narrowly missed a vital 40 00:03:16,982 --> 00:03:20,262 Speaker 1: artery when it traveled downwards. Lodging itself in his neck. 41 00:03:21,382 --> 00:03:24,742 Speaker 1: After arriving at hospital, doctors made the difficult decision to 42 00:03:24,742 --> 00:03:27,742 Speaker 1: place him in an induced coma, where he remained for 43 00:03:27,822 --> 00:03:31,742 Speaker 1: three days. Their daughter, twenty four year old Jennifer, was 44 00:03:31,782 --> 00:03:35,062 Speaker 1: also home when three men burst into the pan family home. 45 00:03:35,702 --> 00:03:39,942 Speaker 1: She was tied up but unharmed. Their son, Felix, was 46 00:03:39,982 --> 00:03:44,302 Speaker 1: at university when the attack happened. From the very start, 47 00:03:44,542 --> 00:03:48,462 Speaker 1: something wasn't right. As Jennifer started to recall the events 48 00:03:48,462 --> 00:03:52,102 Speaker 1: of the night to detectives, there were holes in her story. 49 00:03:52,222 --> 00:03:55,182 Speaker 1: How did the men get into the house. Why were 50 00:03:55,182 --> 00:03:58,862 Speaker 1: her parents attacked while she was left alone? If they 51 00:03:58,862 --> 00:04:01,862 Speaker 1: were after money, why did they leave behind jewelry and 52 00:04:02,022 --> 00:04:04,902 Speaker 1: cash from her parents' wallets. We listened to the name 53 00:04:04,942 --> 00:04:08,022 Speaker 1: on one call several times, A kind of fairs, a 54 00:04:08,222 --> 00:04:11,102 Speaker 1: tin of fairs. We went over it free and by frame, 55 00:04:11,262 --> 00:04:14,102 Speaker 1: listening to it, playing it back and dissecting what had 56 00:04:14,182 --> 00:04:17,702 Speaker 1: happened all the time. What bothered me was the fact 57 00:04:17,782 --> 00:04:21,782 Speaker 1: that how is she able to make a phone call 58 00:04:22,742 --> 00:04:25,982 Speaker 1: while her hands are tied behind her back to a banister. 59 00:04:29,142 --> 00:04:33,542 Speaker 3: You're now bound to the railing. Can you show me? 60 00:04:33,582 --> 00:04:35,342 Speaker 3: Can you stand up and turn around and tell me 61 00:04:35,622 --> 00:04:43,582 Speaker 3: just show on the camera how your hands are bound. 62 00:04:43,622 --> 00:04:47,142 Speaker 3: Just tell you take it out of a traumatizing event, 63 00:04:47,182 --> 00:04:50,262 Speaker 3: which it is, and put yourself into a more clinical position, 64 00:04:50,302 --> 00:04:53,142 Speaker 3: because I want to see how you could physically get 65 00:04:53,182 --> 00:04:56,942 Speaker 3: your phone out of your waistband. Just stand up and 66 00:04:57,102 --> 00:04:58,542 Speaker 3: focus in on how you did it. 67 00:04:59,262 --> 00:05:04,222 Speaker 1: As detectives continued to dig, they discovered something shocking. Jennifer 68 00:05:04,222 --> 00:05:07,742 Speaker 1: Pan wasn't who she said she was. She wasn't who 69 00:05:07,782 --> 00:05:11,502 Speaker 1: her parents thought she was anyway. She was living a 70 00:05:11,542 --> 00:05:16,382 Speaker 1: complete double life, hiding secrets that would devastate her parents. 71 00:05:16,982 --> 00:05:20,822 Speaker 1: She was in fact an expert liar, and she was 72 00:05:20,942 --> 00:05:25,022 Speaker 1: using that skill to deceive police too. Today we're going 73 00:05:25,062 --> 00:05:28,262 Speaker 1: to unpack how Jennifer found herself inside a prison cell, 74 00:05:28,542 --> 00:05:32,262 Speaker 1: sentenced to twenty five years for murder and attempted murder, 75 00:05:32,502 --> 00:05:36,222 Speaker 1: alongside her ex boyfriend and three other men. To help 76 00:05:36,262 --> 00:05:39,982 Speaker 1: us make sense of the facts, we're joined by Alan R. Warren, 77 00:05:40,342 --> 00:05:43,822 Speaker 1: author of Deadly Betrayal, The True story of Jennifer Pan. 78 00:05:44,502 --> 00:05:55,462 Speaker 1: Alan joins us. Now, Alan, can you talk us through 79 00:05:55,942 --> 00:05:58,622 Speaker 1: the Pan family a bit of background? Who were they 80 00:05:58,742 --> 00:06:01,022 Speaker 1: and what did their life look like as a family 81 00:06:01,062 --> 00:06:03,542 Speaker 1: in Markham, Ontario From the outside anyway. 82 00:06:04,622 --> 00:06:06,822 Speaker 2: Well, you know, from the outside, they look like a keen, 83 00:06:07,262 --> 00:06:11,542 Speaker 2: average family. Both parents worked. They both worked for a 84 00:06:11,542 --> 00:06:14,782 Speaker 2: car manufacturer. Like what they did was make parts for 85 00:06:14,942 --> 00:06:18,382 Speaker 2: cars at Magna, which was a good job for both. 86 00:06:18,422 --> 00:06:22,102 Speaker 2: So they were a good middle class family. Two kids. 87 00:06:22,182 --> 00:06:26,342 Speaker 2: They had, Jennifer and Felix, who were about three years 88 00:06:26,382 --> 00:06:30,422 Speaker 2: apart in age. And they lived in a fairly good neighborhood, 89 00:06:30,542 --> 00:06:35,422 Speaker 2: fairly quiet, nice home, and they were considered a hard working, 90 00:06:35,742 --> 00:06:36,902 Speaker 2: quiet family. 91 00:06:37,622 --> 00:06:40,902 Speaker 1: And quite traditional in the way they run their lives 92 00:06:41,142 --> 00:06:42,382 Speaker 1: and raised their children. 93 00:06:43,062 --> 00:06:47,942 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, very traditional. The parents came from Vietnam back 94 00:06:47,982 --> 00:06:50,542 Speaker 2: in the late seventies seventy nine, I believe it was, 95 00:06:51,302 --> 00:06:56,022 Speaker 2: and they had traditional values, good upbringing, the kids were 96 00:06:56,582 --> 00:07:00,302 Speaker 2: in school, and it was a little stricter than probably 97 00:07:00,342 --> 00:07:04,302 Speaker 2: the average Canadian family because they were expected to do 98 00:07:04,422 --> 00:07:07,302 Speaker 2: a lot more and achieve a lot more, and it 99 00:07:07,342 --> 00:07:10,262 Speaker 2: was a very important especially to the father in the 100 00:07:10,502 --> 00:07:11,142 Speaker 2: pan family. 101 00:07:12,222 --> 00:07:15,062 Speaker 1: At the start of this episode, we detail the night 102 00:07:15,102 --> 00:07:18,062 Speaker 1: of November eight, twenty ten through Jennifer's eyes, or the 103 00:07:18,102 --> 00:07:20,582 Speaker 1: account that she gives. I want you to talk us 104 00:07:20,622 --> 00:07:23,582 Speaker 1: through it from more of the emergency responder's eyes. When 105 00:07:23,622 --> 00:07:26,862 Speaker 1: they arrived on that scene. What did they find. 106 00:07:28,062 --> 00:07:33,062 Speaker 2: I think from the emergency responders, the police and medics, 107 00:07:33,422 --> 00:07:35,942 Speaker 2: their point of view was a very vicious attack. They 108 00:07:35,982 --> 00:07:39,422 Speaker 2: saw a lot of blood, a lot of things disheveled. 109 00:07:39,902 --> 00:07:42,742 Speaker 2: It was a mess. It looked like a home invasion 110 00:07:42,902 --> 00:07:45,862 Speaker 2: in their point of view, and two people had been shot. 111 00:07:46,382 --> 00:07:49,902 Speaker 2: The mother was shot dead, so on arrival she was 112 00:07:49,942 --> 00:07:53,422 Speaker 2: already dead. The father was shot but he wasn't dead, 113 00:07:53,462 --> 00:07:56,782 Speaker 2: but he was in critical condition. So there was a 114 00:07:56,822 --> 00:08:01,502 Speaker 2: lot of turmoil. It was a surprise for the whole area. 115 00:08:01,622 --> 00:08:04,542 Speaker 2: Nobody expected that kind of an attack in such a 116 00:08:04,622 --> 00:08:08,942 Speaker 2: quiet neighborhood and a quiet area of town, so it 117 00:08:08,982 --> 00:08:12,102 Speaker 2: was very unusual. I think they were caught off guard. 118 00:08:12,182 --> 00:08:13,342 Speaker 2: Quite a surprise for them. 119 00:08:14,502 --> 00:08:16,662 Speaker 1: What about Jennifer. What state was she in? Was she 120 00:08:16,742 --> 00:08:19,342 Speaker 1: still tied to a banister when they arrived. 121 00:08:20,542 --> 00:08:24,182 Speaker 2: Yeah, when the police arrived, Originally she was. She was 122 00:08:24,222 --> 00:08:28,262 Speaker 2: still had the ties around her, and she was traumatized, 123 00:08:28,382 --> 00:08:32,102 Speaker 2: or she appeared to be traumatized. She was very emotional 124 00:08:32,302 --> 00:08:34,502 Speaker 2: and crying and upset at the time. 125 00:08:35,742 --> 00:08:39,342 Speaker 1: Within a few hours of police arriving, Jennifer is sitting 126 00:08:39,582 --> 00:08:43,222 Speaker 1: in a police interview room being formally interviewed about what 127 00:08:43,262 --> 00:08:47,142 Speaker 1: she saw and what she experienced. How did you find that, chap, 128 00:08:47,222 --> 00:08:50,062 Speaker 1: What did you pick up? Was there anything particularly odds 129 00:08:50,102 --> 00:08:53,182 Speaker 1: that jumped out at you in that initial conversation. 130 00:08:53,902 --> 00:08:56,742 Speaker 2: Well, in the very first one, she was very upset. 131 00:08:56,862 --> 00:09:00,622 Speaker 2: She was very broken up, which was what you would expect. 132 00:09:01,262 --> 00:09:04,142 Speaker 2: I don't know that I would have thought anything from 133 00:09:04,182 --> 00:09:09,902 Speaker 2: her personal interview originally would have really thrown me. There 134 00:09:09,982 --> 00:09:13,422 Speaker 2: was questions, but everybody deals with grief differently, and that 135 00:09:13,502 --> 00:09:17,462 Speaker 2: kind of a trauma, you wouldn't necessarily jump to any 136 00:09:17,542 --> 00:09:21,222 Speaker 2: conclusions from the first interview. Looking back at it, you 137 00:09:21,222 --> 00:09:23,582 Speaker 2: could pick out a few things, but initially you would 138 00:09:23,702 --> 00:09:26,502 Speaker 2: kind of take it as it comes. She was really upset. 139 00:09:26,982 --> 00:09:29,102 Speaker 1: She almost had a bit of a naivety to her, 140 00:09:29,182 --> 00:09:31,622 Speaker 1: is what I thought. She kept saying to the police officers, 141 00:09:32,022 --> 00:09:34,702 Speaker 1: I don't want to say anything wrong, and you kind 142 00:09:34,742 --> 00:09:36,702 Speaker 1: of really felt for her. She looks a lot younger 143 00:09:36,702 --> 00:09:39,382 Speaker 1: than she is. She's twenty four, but she looks quite young, 144 00:09:39,502 --> 00:09:41,542 Speaker 1: and I really felt for her when I first watched 145 00:09:41,542 --> 00:09:43,022 Speaker 1: that initial interview. 146 00:09:43,862 --> 00:09:45,502 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, And that's kind of what I mean, 147 00:09:45,502 --> 00:09:48,582 Speaker 2: because everyone deals with it differently. Something that happens to them, 148 00:09:48,742 --> 00:09:51,742 Speaker 2: the trauma and I kind of took her as it 149 00:09:51,982 --> 00:09:55,782 Speaker 2: was seemed very naive. You're right, and she seemed very young, 150 00:09:56,222 --> 00:09:59,182 Speaker 2: much younger than she is, and I think that played 151 00:09:59,222 --> 00:10:01,502 Speaker 2: with it. I think that made it even more believable. 152 00:10:02,102 --> 00:10:05,902 Speaker 2: Her breaking down her little upset things. She was very believable. 153 00:10:06,942 --> 00:10:09,462 Speaker 1: It's a well known police tactic to get people to 154 00:10:09,702 --> 00:10:12,742 Speaker 1: continuously pete what they saw or what they experienced, not 155 00:10:12,782 --> 00:10:15,982 Speaker 1: necessarily to catch them out. Often it's just to catch 156 00:10:16,022 --> 00:10:19,622 Speaker 1: details someone might have missed in the first place. But 157 00:10:19,702 --> 00:10:22,822 Speaker 1: in Jennifer's retellings, things start to get a bit weird. 158 00:10:22,862 --> 00:10:25,502 Speaker 1: She has a lot of inconsistencies. Can you walk us 159 00:10:25,502 --> 00:10:26,382 Speaker 1: through some of those? 160 00:10:27,902 --> 00:10:31,782 Speaker 2: Well, I think the thing with her inconsistency she didn't 161 00:10:31,782 --> 00:10:36,982 Speaker 2: really respond how they expected her to and kept on 162 00:10:37,102 --> 00:10:40,862 Speaker 2: asking her things. She wasn't confident in how she responded. 163 00:10:41,262 --> 00:10:44,182 Speaker 2: It was almost like she had to think about it, 164 00:10:44,222 --> 00:10:47,982 Speaker 2: and it seemed to confuse her when they questioned her 165 00:10:48,022 --> 00:10:50,422 Speaker 2: over and over. So I think that was probably the 166 00:10:50,462 --> 00:10:52,662 Speaker 2: biggest problem in the very first interview. 167 00:10:53,502 --> 00:10:59,102 Speaker 1: How does she describe her family life in those initial chats. 168 00:10:59,262 --> 00:11:02,142 Speaker 2: The initial time, the way she talked about things like 169 00:11:02,422 --> 00:11:05,142 Speaker 2: because she went down and said good night to her mother, 170 00:11:05,302 --> 00:11:08,662 Speaker 2: she said, and it seemed like it was a very 171 00:11:08,742 --> 00:11:12,982 Speaker 2: normal sort of evening for her. 172 00:11:13,582 --> 00:11:19,902 Speaker 1: Originally, she becomes almost scared, like annoyed when she finds 173 00:11:19,942 --> 00:11:23,022 Speaker 1: out her brother is being interviewed by police in the 174 00:11:23,062 --> 00:11:25,782 Speaker 1: next room, and she also gets a bit weird when 175 00:11:26,062 --> 00:11:28,382 Speaker 1: police start talking about going through her text messages and 176 00:11:28,422 --> 00:11:31,782 Speaker 1: her phone us. For me, that kind of was like, 177 00:11:32,782 --> 00:11:35,462 Speaker 1: once again that naivety. Maybe she didn't understand what happens 178 00:11:35,502 --> 00:11:37,902 Speaker 1: in a police interviewment. Perhaps she thought that police would 179 00:11:37,942 --> 00:11:39,502 Speaker 1: just take her on her word. What did you think 180 00:11:39,502 --> 00:11:40,022 Speaker 1: about all of that? 181 00:11:41,462 --> 00:11:44,302 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think she acted like she thought they would 182 00:11:44,302 --> 00:11:47,982 Speaker 2: just believe her and there would be no real questions 183 00:11:48,422 --> 00:11:50,902 Speaker 2: much deeper than some of the surface stuff that they 184 00:11:50,902 --> 00:11:53,902 Speaker 2: were asking. It's hard to say what she was thinking 185 00:11:53,982 --> 00:11:57,222 Speaker 2: at the time and when this was all planned, what 186 00:11:57,382 --> 00:11:59,702 Speaker 2: was going through her mind, what she thought police would 187 00:11:59,702 --> 00:12:03,902 Speaker 2: actually put her through. I don't know that she expected 188 00:12:04,502 --> 00:12:08,542 Speaker 2: as much detail and as many interviews as she got 189 00:12:08,582 --> 00:12:10,902 Speaker 2: and how long they lasted. I think that'll sort of 190 00:12:11,182 --> 00:12:14,662 Speaker 2: took her by surprise. And I'm not sure why, because 191 00:12:14,702 --> 00:12:17,542 Speaker 2: there's been a murder and an attempt at murder, so 192 00:12:17,622 --> 00:12:20,542 Speaker 2: I don't know why she would have thought it would 193 00:12:20,542 --> 00:12:24,822 Speaker 2: have been easier, you know, and why her brother wouldn't 194 00:12:24,862 --> 00:12:28,582 Speaker 2: be questioned and neighbors and friends and stuff like that. 195 00:12:28,982 --> 00:12:32,222 Speaker 2: She didn't plan for a lot of questions. 196 00:12:33,102 --> 00:12:36,862 Speaker 1: As the investigators started to properly look into potential motives 197 00:12:36,902 --> 00:12:39,222 Speaker 1: and the nature of the crime, they kind of figured 198 00:12:39,222 --> 00:12:41,182 Speaker 1: out that something wasn't quite right with the whole scene, 199 00:12:41,222 --> 00:12:43,582 Speaker 1: you know, the level of violence, the targeting of one 200 00:12:43,662 --> 00:12:48,422 Speaker 1: home on the street, the fact that two people were shot, 201 00:12:48,782 --> 00:12:52,062 Speaker 1: Jennifer was left alone, there was money left in wallets, 202 00:12:52,062 --> 00:12:56,262 Speaker 1: so that didn't gell. Everything just didn't quite fit, did it. 203 00:12:57,542 --> 00:13:00,262 Speaker 2: Well, Yeah, in this type of home invasion where they 204 00:13:00,262 --> 00:13:04,062 Speaker 2: had no problem shooting both the parents for dad, like 205 00:13:04,102 --> 00:13:07,302 Speaker 2: they had the intention of killing both, why they wouldn't 206 00:13:07,382 --> 00:13:12,102 Speaker 2: kill her? And her response was because I cooperated. But 207 00:13:12,182 --> 00:13:15,142 Speaker 2: that didn't seem to work. There was nothing they needed 208 00:13:15,182 --> 00:13:19,942 Speaker 2: from her in her as she says cooperation, there really wasn't. 209 00:13:20,302 --> 00:13:24,102 Speaker 2: And plus, why would they not take all of the 210 00:13:24,142 --> 00:13:27,062 Speaker 2: money or valuables that they could have at the time, 211 00:13:27,542 --> 00:13:31,142 Speaker 2: if that's the intention of the crime, is to steal 212 00:13:31,222 --> 00:13:35,142 Speaker 2: money and property or anything valuable. That was sort of 213 00:13:35,582 --> 00:13:38,502 Speaker 2: not quite believable, Like that left a big question of like, 214 00:13:38,582 --> 00:13:41,782 Speaker 2: what was going on here? Why wouldn't they go further? 215 00:13:41,942 --> 00:13:46,462 Speaker 2: Why didn't they shoot Jennifer? What was going on? 216 00:13:47,942 --> 00:13:51,262 Speaker 1: The nine one one call was also a bit weird 217 00:13:51,462 --> 00:13:52,902 Speaker 1: to investigate us. Why was that? 218 00:13:54,182 --> 00:13:57,742 Speaker 2: Well, mainly because she said that she had her phone 219 00:13:57,862 --> 00:14:00,182 Speaker 2: on her her cell phonelike and she had it in 220 00:14:00,222 --> 00:14:02,662 Speaker 2: the back pocket I believe the left one, she said. 221 00:14:03,302 --> 00:14:08,622 Speaker 2: And so they tied her up against the banister rail 222 00:14:08,782 --> 00:14:11,742 Speaker 2: kind of like there's like this are rails up on 223 00:14:11,862 --> 00:14:15,062 Speaker 2: the top on the main I guess platform you would 224 00:14:15,062 --> 00:14:18,142 Speaker 2: call it, And they tied her around her shoulders and 225 00:14:18,182 --> 00:14:21,662 Speaker 2: then they had her hands died behind her back. So 226 00:14:22,182 --> 00:14:24,102 Speaker 2: they kind of thought, well, that would be kind of 227 00:14:24,142 --> 00:14:28,542 Speaker 2: an awkward place, like how would she get the phone 228 00:14:29,142 --> 00:14:32,822 Speaker 2: and call nine one one? And so they asked her 229 00:14:32,822 --> 00:14:37,742 Speaker 2: to demonstrate, and she did demonstrate, but it wasn't something 230 00:14:37,782 --> 00:14:40,182 Speaker 2: that they were really buying into because how would she 231 00:14:40,262 --> 00:14:43,662 Speaker 2: hear the operator she had to scream. There was a 232 00:14:43,702 --> 00:14:45,902 Speaker 2: lot of things that didn't fit, and it didn't sound 233 00:14:45,942 --> 00:14:48,622 Speaker 2: like what she was doing when she was making the call, 234 00:14:48,822 --> 00:14:53,182 Speaker 2: like it didn't it didn't jibe with how they expected 235 00:14:53,182 --> 00:14:55,902 Speaker 2: it to happen, So that in itself made them question 236 00:14:56,102 --> 00:14:58,262 Speaker 2: her as well. 237 00:14:58,302 --> 00:15:01,102 Speaker 1: As you said, she kind of said that she yelled 238 00:15:01,142 --> 00:15:03,942 Speaker 1: into the microphone of the camera from a distance, but 239 00:15:03,982 --> 00:15:06,782 Speaker 1: when you actually listen to the call, it really doesn't 240 00:15:07,062 --> 00:15:07,702 Speaker 1: sound like that. 241 00:15:08,662 --> 00:15:11,342 Speaker 2: Yeah, and plus how did she hear the operator? And 242 00:15:11,342 --> 00:15:13,062 Speaker 2: she said, well, I had the volume turned up and 243 00:15:13,142 --> 00:15:16,262 Speaker 2: that isn't true. That doesn't work. What it did was 244 00:15:16,262 --> 00:15:19,382 Speaker 2: it didn't convince them of anything. The cops thought, well, 245 00:15:19,422 --> 00:15:23,582 Speaker 2: you're not telling us everything. Why is she holding back things? 246 00:15:23,622 --> 00:15:27,062 Speaker 2: And why is she not being direct and honest. There's 247 00:15:27,102 --> 00:15:29,942 Speaker 2: something that she's not being honest about, she's not being 248 00:15:29,982 --> 00:15:33,582 Speaker 2: forthcoming with And I think that was kind of made 249 00:15:33,582 --> 00:15:38,342 Speaker 2: them caution about her. They were kind of, ooh, what's 250 00:15:38,382 --> 00:15:40,782 Speaker 2: going on here? What is that she's hiding. 251 00:15:45,502 --> 00:15:49,462 Speaker 1: You're listening to True Crime Conversations with me, Jimmy bass 252 00:15:49,902 --> 00:15:52,862 Speaker 1: I'm speaking with author Alan R. Warren about the true 253 00:15:52,902 --> 00:15:56,982 Speaker 1: story of Jennifer pan Up. Next, we explore information given 254 00:15:56,982 --> 00:16:00,622 Speaker 1: by an anonymous informant which gives police their biggest break 255 00:16:00,742 --> 00:16:10,342 Speaker 1: in the case. Let's take a step back for a minute. 256 00:16:11,182 --> 00:16:14,102 Speaker 1: How did the news and the media and the community 257 00:16:14,142 --> 00:16:19,862 Speaker 1: react to what had happened this crazy home invasion? One 258 00:16:19,942 --> 00:16:23,702 Speaker 1: person dead, one injured, one terrified because you mentioned before 259 00:16:23,702 --> 00:16:27,542 Speaker 1: that Markham was quite a suburban safe area. Was it everywhere? 260 00:16:27,622 --> 00:16:28,502 Speaker 1: Was it all over the news? 261 00:16:29,462 --> 00:16:31,862 Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, Like as soon as it hit it became 262 00:16:31,902 --> 00:16:35,302 Speaker 2: a big story because on the surface, the media is 263 00:16:35,342 --> 00:16:37,782 Speaker 2: reporting it as two people were shot, one of them 264 00:16:37,862 --> 00:16:40,502 Speaker 2: was killed. It was a home invasion and it was 265 00:16:40,542 --> 00:16:44,022 Speaker 2: a family in working class family in Markham, which is 266 00:16:44,062 --> 00:16:47,582 Speaker 2: a suburb of Toronto. Really it's quite a distance but 267 00:16:47,662 --> 00:16:51,582 Speaker 2: it's a very quiet community. They have a low crime rate, 268 00:16:51,862 --> 00:16:55,382 Speaker 2: almost nothing. I mean, Canadian crime rate is low anyway, 269 00:16:55,382 --> 00:17:00,222 Speaker 2: and especially when you're involving shootings and or murders, that 270 00:17:00,342 --> 00:17:05,342 Speaker 2: just doesn't happen. So it was a shock. It's like, wow, 271 00:17:05,422 --> 00:17:08,862 Speaker 2: what's going on here? And why? So this brought to 272 00:17:08,942 --> 00:17:12,302 Speaker 2: attention a lot of people were like or was this random? 273 00:17:12,862 --> 00:17:15,662 Speaker 2: So what's going on? And people were kind of scared 274 00:17:15,942 --> 00:17:20,902 Speaker 2: because this wasn't a family that would be a typical target, right, 275 00:17:21,102 --> 00:17:24,422 Speaker 2: We're not talking in real wealthy, well to do family. 276 00:17:24,582 --> 00:17:28,062 Speaker 2: There were certainly a middle class working family, but they 277 00:17:28,062 --> 00:17:32,742 Speaker 2: were one of thousands within that town, So why were 278 00:17:32,782 --> 00:17:36,062 Speaker 2: they chosen? And if it was random? That kind of 279 00:17:36,102 --> 00:17:38,222 Speaker 2: put a lot of people on alarm. In the area. 280 00:17:38,262 --> 00:17:41,182 Speaker 2: It's because they're just random people going around knocking on 281 00:17:41,262 --> 00:17:44,622 Speaker 2: the door and robbing you. I think it scared a 282 00:17:44,662 --> 00:17:45,222 Speaker 2: lot of people. 283 00:17:46,462 --> 00:17:49,822 Speaker 1: Locals were told to keep an eye out for three men. 284 00:17:50,382 --> 00:17:54,222 Speaker 1: That's who they were told invaded this home. Were their descriptions, 285 00:17:54,302 --> 00:17:56,622 Speaker 1: do you remember them being circulated at the time. 286 00:17:57,782 --> 00:18:00,862 Speaker 2: Yeah, because they got descriptions off of Jennifer, and they 287 00:18:00,862 --> 00:18:05,502 Speaker 2: were obviously made to try and fool the police in 288 00:18:05,502 --> 00:18:08,262 Speaker 2: some way because she really said that there was two 289 00:18:08,622 --> 00:18:11,982 Speaker 2: black men, dark skinned men, and there was the third 290 00:18:12,062 --> 00:18:16,542 Speaker 2: that had a Jamaican accent, and she described one of 291 00:18:16,542 --> 00:18:20,902 Speaker 2: them having dreadlocks. So she completely described three characters that 292 00:18:20,982 --> 00:18:25,262 Speaker 2: were not exactly what would fit with the real people. 293 00:18:25,382 --> 00:18:27,702 Speaker 2: So it sort of was there and it was kind 294 00:18:27,702 --> 00:18:30,262 Speaker 2: of confusing, but you kind of know why she did it, 295 00:18:30,382 --> 00:18:33,382 Speaker 2: I guess looking back at it. But at the time, 296 00:18:33,542 --> 00:18:37,982 Speaker 2: so they were looking for three foreign colored men. 297 00:18:40,102 --> 00:18:42,742 Speaker 1: I want to point out for listeners at this point 298 00:18:42,782 --> 00:18:46,582 Speaker 1: of the story that Han Jennifer's father was still in 299 00:18:46,622 --> 00:18:48,782 Speaker 1: a coma at this point, so they really only had 300 00:18:49,422 --> 00:18:53,142 Speaker 1: Jennifer's version of events to go by. But one of 301 00:18:53,182 --> 00:18:57,702 Speaker 1: their first major breaks was getting onto her boyfriend or 302 00:18:57,742 --> 00:19:00,982 Speaker 1: ex boyfriend Daniel, which actually came through to them via 303 00:19:01,062 --> 00:19:04,622 Speaker 1: an anonymous informant. What does he kind of lift the 304 00:19:04,662 --> 00:19:04,982 Speaker 1: lid on? 305 00:19:05,862 --> 00:19:10,062 Speaker 2: Well, Daniel Wong was a low drug dealer, like it 306 00:19:10,102 --> 00:19:13,782 Speaker 2: wasn't feeling in major drug exchanges, but he was selling 307 00:19:14,142 --> 00:19:17,382 Speaker 2: a lot of drugs. And he had been arrested before 308 00:19:17,582 --> 00:19:20,222 Speaker 2: and had been in and out of trouble for different 309 00:19:20,262 --> 00:19:23,782 Speaker 2: things like that, minor felonies and drug charges and stuff 310 00:19:23,862 --> 00:19:26,702 Speaker 2: like that. And so that sort of opened the eyes 311 00:19:26,742 --> 00:19:29,662 Speaker 2: that the police. We thought, oh, okay, what's going on here? 312 00:19:30,182 --> 00:19:34,022 Speaker 2: Because she was dating him on and off for years. 313 00:19:34,502 --> 00:19:40,102 Speaker 2: The family didn't like him. They didn't want her dating 314 00:19:40,982 --> 00:19:43,302 Speaker 2: this guy because not only was he a drug dealer 315 00:19:43,342 --> 00:19:46,502 Speaker 2: on and off, but he was also not making much money. 316 00:19:46,622 --> 00:19:49,502 Speaker 2: He didn't finish school. There was a lot of things 317 00:19:49,502 --> 00:19:52,542 Speaker 2: that they didn't like about him. They never invited him over, 318 00:19:52,782 --> 00:19:56,622 Speaker 2: they never wanted them there. And then during the interview, 319 00:19:56,982 --> 00:20:00,262 Speaker 2: he mentioned how they had separated. They'd broke up as 320 00:20:00,262 --> 00:20:04,462 Speaker 2: a couple. He was seeing someone new now Christina, I believe, 321 00:20:04,862 --> 00:20:08,422 Speaker 2: And what was going on was they were getting anonymous 322 00:20:08,462 --> 00:20:12,222 Speaker 2: texts and phone calls. People would bone both of them 323 00:20:12,262 --> 00:20:16,342 Speaker 2: and hang up or send them texts saying really bad 324 00:20:16,422 --> 00:20:21,102 Speaker 2: things and lots of texts. Jennifer even claimed or told 325 00:20:21,302 --> 00:20:25,742 Speaker 2: him Dan Wong the boyfriend, that she was being threatened 326 00:20:26,342 --> 00:20:29,622 Speaker 2: and followed, and even one time she said that she 327 00:20:29,742 --> 00:20:35,542 Speaker 2: was attacked and she believed it was from his new girlfriend, 328 00:20:35,862 --> 00:20:38,342 Speaker 2: like she was kind of putting it towards that, but 329 00:20:38,502 --> 00:20:41,902 Speaker 2: police didn't really pick up on that. They were thinking, well, wow, 330 00:20:42,062 --> 00:20:44,782 Speaker 2: so this might be drug related or related to the 331 00:20:44,862 --> 00:20:50,302 Speaker 2: long character because of his drug dealings and the people 332 00:20:50,342 --> 00:20:52,822 Speaker 2: he was probably surrounded. He opened up a lot of 333 00:20:52,902 --> 00:20:55,742 Speaker 2: questions and made them look at the family a little 334 00:20:55,782 --> 00:20:56,422 Speaker 2: bit differently. 335 00:20:57,222 --> 00:21:00,822 Speaker 1: Well, he also showed Jennifer to be a liar. They 336 00:21:00,822 --> 00:21:02,662 Speaker 1: didn't know the extent of it at this point, but 337 00:21:03,502 --> 00:21:06,502 Speaker 1: she was akin to lying here and there to a family, 338 00:21:06,622 --> 00:21:10,142 Speaker 1: especially about him. Once they found out that she was 339 00:21:10,182 --> 00:21:12,502 Speaker 1: still dating him, they kind of got pretty strict with her, 340 00:21:12,542 --> 00:21:12,982 Speaker 1: didn't they. 341 00:21:14,022 --> 00:21:17,022 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, because they started thinking, well, you can't see 342 00:21:17,062 --> 00:21:19,942 Speaker 2: this boy anymore, and there was like bad stuff happening. 343 00:21:20,022 --> 00:21:24,702 Speaker 2: So the father started driving her everywhere to classes, to 344 00:21:24,782 --> 00:21:30,062 Speaker 2: her skating class, like her training and also her piano classes. 345 00:21:30,342 --> 00:21:34,022 Speaker 2: They started like watching her and not allowing her out. 346 00:21:34,022 --> 00:21:35,982 Speaker 2: And there's even the time where he took away her 347 00:21:35,982 --> 00:21:36,862 Speaker 2: cell phone from her. 348 00:21:37,822 --> 00:21:40,942 Speaker 1: So obviously that's got some questions. They bring Jennifer back in, 349 00:21:41,462 --> 00:21:44,582 Speaker 1: does she expand on that or is she still keeping 350 00:21:44,582 --> 00:21:46,262 Speaker 1: things close to her chest. 351 00:21:47,262 --> 00:21:50,262 Speaker 2: No, she talked about it somewhat, of course, not the 352 00:21:50,302 --> 00:21:53,222 Speaker 2: same way that Daniel Long did. But she did say 353 00:21:53,302 --> 00:21:56,942 Speaker 2: that her father didn't want her seeing him and didn't 354 00:21:56,982 --> 00:21:59,742 Speaker 2: want her going out and doing things, and wanted her 355 00:22:00,302 --> 00:22:04,142 Speaker 2: to be focused and become successful in the things that 356 00:22:04,182 --> 00:22:07,022 Speaker 2: she was being trained for. So she did have that 357 00:22:07,262 --> 00:22:10,782 Speaker 2: problem with the parents, and she did realize. 358 00:22:11,982 --> 00:22:14,782 Speaker 1: To what extent was Jennifer lying to her parents because 359 00:22:14,822 --> 00:22:20,742 Speaker 1: she was very manipulative. She was creating bogus documents and 360 00:22:20,862 --> 00:22:24,982 Speaker 1: faking university degrees. Her lies almost swallowed her a. 361 00:22:25,022 --> 00:22:28,902 Speaker 2: Bit, yeah, because at school she wasn't doing as well 362 00:22:28,942 --> 00:22:33,102 Speaker 2: as she claimed she was. Her first forgery so to speak, 363 00:22:33,182 --> 00:22:36,942 Speaker 2: or photoshopping was of her report cards saying she had 364 00:22:36,982 --> 00:22:41,062 Speaker 2: better marks than she did get in actuality, and then 365 00:22:41,342 --> 00:22:44,382 Speaker 2: next on was the diploma, you know, and then she 366 00:22:44,422 --> 00:22:48,062 Speaker 2: started going to university, but she wasn't really going to 367 00:22:48,062 --> 00:22:51,782 Speaker 2: the university, so she was telling her parents that she 368 00:22:52,142 --> 00:22:56,142 Speaker 2: was and that she was going to go for pharmacology, 369 00:22:56,182 --> 00:23:00,022 Speaker 2: I believe, at the University of Toronto. So even that 370 00:23:00,222 --> 00:23:02,662 Speaker 2: when she was going to school, she would fake she 371 00:23:02,702 --> 00:23:05,782 Speaker 2: didn't really go to school, and even though her father 372 00:23:05,822 --> 00:23:08,422 Speaker 2: would drive her there, she was really spending time with 373 00:23:08,502 --> 00:23:11,622 Speaker 2: Daniel Wong on and off and other different friends as well, 374 00:23:12,142 --> 00:23:15,102 Speaker 2: not just him, And so she faked that all the 375 00:23:15,182 --> 00:23:18,862 Speaker 2: way through and lied to them about knowing the university 376 00:23:18,902 --> 00:23:21,542 Speaker 2: and even getting a diploma from university. And she actually 377 00:23:21,582 --> 00:23:24,742 Speaker 2: made that up, she claimed through photoshop, but I think 378 00:23:24,782 --> 00:23:26,742 Speaker 2: there's a few other things she used as well, not 379 00:23:26,862 --> 00:23:31,222 Speaker 2: just photoshop. So she faked all of that to the parents. 380 00:23:32,382 --> 00:23:35,862 Speaker 1: So at this point we have someone who has been lying, 381 00:23:36,022 --> 00:23:38,622 Speaker 1: but you know, it's mainly about family staff. And then 382 00:23:38,622 --> 00:23:41,862 Speaker 1: we've got a crime scene that doesn't really fit. So 383 00:23:41,942 --> 00:23:44,542 Speaker 1: investigators are definitely looking at Jennifer, but they don't have 384 00:23:44,782 --> 00:23:48,862 Speaker 1: anything really very concrete. But Hann wakes up from his 385 00:23:48,942 --> 00:23:52,422 Speaker 1: coma on November twelve. How did that change everything? Because 386 00:23:52,422 --> 00:23:56,342 Speaker 1: suddenly they have another version of events. 387 00:23:55,582 --> 00:24:00,222 Speaker 2: Right, Well, the father hand Van he said that during 388 00:24:00,262 --> 00:24:04,782 Speaker 2: the invasion, of course, he saw his daughter Jennifer, and 389 00:24:05,142 --> 00:24:08,142 Speaker 2: when she came down the stairs, she was with two 390 00:24:08,182 --> 00:24:12,822 Speaker 2: of the different attackers home invaders, and she was having 391 00:24:12,942 --> 00:24:17,382 Speaker 2: casual and light conversation with them, like she wasn't tied up, 392 00:24:17,822 --> 00:24:20,942 Speaker 2: she wasn't being forced to do anything. They weren't threatening 393 00:24:20,982 --> 00:24:24,462 Speaker 2: her or dragging her or beating her or anything like that. 394 00:24:24,902 --> 00:24:28,142 Speaker 2: She was, you know, with them and almost looked like 395 00:24:28,742 --> 00:24:31,982 Speaker 2: she was part of the scenario going on, or she 396 00:24:32,102 --> 00:24:35,902 Speaker 2: knew them at least, So that sort of changed the 397 00:24:35,942 --> 00:24:40,062 Speaker 2: whole tone of what had happened to the family and 398 00:24:40,142 --> 00:24:43,222 Speaker 2: the home invasion throughout the whole time period. So this 399 00:24:43,422 --> 00:24:47,342 Speaker 2: was a real shocker because they didn't expect that they 400 00:24:47,382 --> 00:24:50,982 Speaker 2: knew she was a liar and she wasn't really telling 401 00:24:51,062 --> 00:24:54,102 Speaker 2: the truth, but it was to save face. More than this, 402 00:24:54,102 --> 00:24:58,622 Speaker 2: this was an actual murder or attentional murder and robbery 403 00:24:58,702 --> 00:25:00,302 Speaker 2: that she was involved in. 404 00:25:02,022 --> 00:25:05,382 Speaker 1: So her dad has obviously told the truth to the investigators. 405 00:25:05,382 --> 00:25:09,022 Speaker 1: Do we know if he thought that she was involved 406 00:25:09,142 --> 00:25:12,342 Speaker 1: or he was just telling them what he's He. 407 00:25:12,342 --> 00:25:14,822 Speaker 2: Knew that she had something to do with it for sure. 408 00:25:15,262 --> 00:25:18,062 Speaker 2: He even told one of the officers to find out 409 00:25:18,102 --> 00:25:22,302 Speaker 2: what she was responsible for. He also didn't want her 410 00:25:22,582 --> 00:25:27,622 Speaker 2: in visiting her and eventually it became a life long 411 00:25:28,502 --> 00:25:32,262 Speaker 2: ban of her even seeing him, So yeah, he knew 412 00:25:32,302 --> 00:25:34,902 Speaker 2: there was something else going on. He didn't know the 413 00:25:34,982 --> 00:25:38,222 Speaker 2: details at that time, but he wanted them to find 414 00:25:38,262 --> 00:25:39,862 Speaker 2: out the police. 415 00:25:40,782 --> 00:25:44,702 Speaker 1: Despite all of this happening, a few days later, Jennifer's 416 00:25:44,742 --> 00:25:46,902 Speaker 1: mummy is laid to rest. They have her funeral on 417 00:25:46,982 --> 00:25:51,742 Speaker 1: November fifteenth. Was Jennifer weird during that? Is there anything 418 00:25:51,742 --> 00:25:54,422 Speaker 1: of note to discuss about that event? 419 00:25:55,862 --> 00:25:59,062 Speaker 2: I think it's more weird looking back at it knowing 420 00:25:59,142 --> 00:26:02,942 Speaker 2: she was involved at the time. She was upset and 421 00:26:02,982 --> 00:26:05,222 Speaker 2: she saved face, and she was with the brother at 422 00:26:05,222 --> 00:26:09,022 Speaker 2: the time, and she did things, but again not enough 423 00:26:09,062 --> 00:26:11,502 Speaker 2: to make you think, oh, she was a killer and 424 00:26:11,542 --> 00:26:14,942 Speaker 2: all this stuff. More so looking back at it, it's 425 00:26:14,982 --> 00:26:17,502 Speaker 2: weirder looking back at it knowing that she was involved 426 00:26:17,582 --> 00:26:24,382 Speaker 2: in this and being at the funeral than at the time. Yeah. 427 00:26:24,422 --> 00:26:26,542 Speaker 1: I was watching an interview with one of her friends 428 00:26:26,582 --> 00:26:29,662 Speaker 1: who said, in hindsight, he noticed that she was crying 429 00:26:29,822 --> 00:26:32,342 Speaker 1: but there were no tears. So it was stuff like 430 00:26:32,382 --> 00:26:34,742 Speaker 1: that where he didn't think anything of it at the time, 431 00:26:34,822 --> 00:26:37,742 Speaker 1: but in hindsight he was like, hey, actually that was 432 00:26:37,742 --> 00:26:38,302 Speaker 1: a bit weird. 433 00:26:39,382 --> 00:26:42,062 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was more like looking back at it and 434 00:26:42,102 --> 00:26:46,302 Speaker 2: finding out things, you start to put together little things 435 00:26:46,382 --> 00:26:48,702 Speaker 2: like that. But at the time, again you sort of think, well, 436 00:26:48,742 --> 00:26:51,582 Speaker 2: she's grieving. You don't know what she's going through, and 437 00:26:51,622 --> 00:26:54,862 Speaker 2: everyone grieves differently, so you just kind of you brush 438 00:26:54,902 --> 00:26:56,342 Speaker 2: all of the little things off. 439 00:27:08,862 --> 00:27:11,742 Speaker 1: Not long after this, Jennifer is interviewed as a suspect 440 00:27:11,902 --> 00:27:15,302 Speaker 1: for the first time. Did they get a confession out 441 00:27:15,302 --> 00:27:18,022 Speaker 1: of her? How does she react to that? Obviously it 442 00:27:18,022 --> 00:27:20,502 Speaker 1: would be a change of tone from investigators who were 443 00:27:20,662 --> 00:27:23,662 Speaker 1: before they were just interviewing her as a potential victim 444 00:27:23,662 --> 00:27:26,862 Speaker 1: in a case, but now they were suspecting her. So 445 00:27:27,022 --> 00:27:28,582 Speaker 1: did she bow to that pressure? 446 00:27:29,862 --> 00:27:32,262 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, the third interview has done. They sent in 447 00:27:32,542 --> 00:27:35,902 Speaker 2: kind of what they consider a lie detector on the force. 448 00:27:36,422 --> 00:27:39,062 Speaker 2: He was more of a truth and handswer. They had 449 00:27:39,102 --> 00:27:42,502 Speaker 2: all sorts of names, but he's really someone that detect lies, 450 00:27:42,582 --> 00:27:45,822 Speaker 2: and that was Bill gats He introduced himself that way 451 00:27:46,262 --> 00:27:49,862 Speaker 2: and he also was throwing lies at her and also 452 00:27:50,502 --> 00:27:53,902 Speaker 2: right awake, almost told her that he knew she knew 453 00:27:53,942 --> 00:27:56,902 Speaker 2: more than she was talking about, that she was involved 454 00:27:57,382 --> 00:28:00,182 Speaker 2: and what did she know, like why did she plan 455 00:28:00,342 --> 00:28:05,822 Speaker 2: this occurrence, this event, this attack to happen was his angle, 456 00:28:06,262 --> 00:28:09,502 Speaker 2: So she did know that she was being suspected of something. 457 00:28:10,582 --> 00:28:13,902 Speaker 2: Of course, she took the lying way out in kying 458 00:28:14,022 --> 00:28:17,502 Speaker 2: saying that she wanted them to kill her herself. Like 459 00:28:17,622 --> 00:28:20,662 Speaker 2: Jennifer wanted to die. She didn't want to live anymore, 460 00:28:21,062 --> 00:28:23,862 Speaker 2: so she took that kind of an angle with the 461 00:28:23,902 --> 00:28:28,622 Speaker 2: officer rather than the idea that she hired them to 462 00:28:28,702 --> 00:28:32,222 Speaker 2: kill the parents, even that she lied about, So she 463 00:28:32,262 --> 00:28:35,702 Speaker 2: took a whole new way with him. 464 00:28:37,062 --> 00:28:39,262 Speaker 1: Why did she say she wanted to die? 465 00:28:40,622 --> 00:28:42,942 Speaker 2: Well, she was kind of going on like she was 466 00:28:42,982 --> 00:28:45,382 Speaker 2: really hard done by and she didn't want to live, 467 00:28:45,542 --> 00:28:48,302 Speaker 2: and it wasn't working with the boyfriend who she wanted 468 00:28:48,302 --> 00:28:51,782 Speaker 2: to spend time with the parents, and lying about the 469 00:28:51,862 --> 00:28:54,502 Speaker 2: university and a job, and there was a lot of 470 00:28:54,502 --> 00:28:55,622 Speaker 2: different angles there. 471 00:28:56,982 --> 00:29:00,462 Speaker 1: So now that Jennifer's are suspects, police have access to 472 00:29:00,502 --> 00:29:04,822 Speaker 1: her phone and her laptop and they come across a 473 00:29:04,902 --> 00:29:09,662 Speaker 1: number of incriminating texts and messages. What did they reveal? 474 00:29:10,902 --> 00:29:14,222 Speaker 2: They revealed how she was involved in the setup right 475 00:29:14,222 --> 00:29:17,102 Speaker 2: through the whole time, I mean, and they also learned 476 00:29:17,182 --> 00:29:22,422 Speaker 2: how she initially hired a friend of Wongs, that she 477 00:29:22,502 --> 00:29:26,382 Speaker 2: wanted to hire him to kill her father and that 478 00:29:26,502 --> 00:29:30,262 Speaker 2: didn't happen, and she had connected with all of the 479 00:29:30,302 --> 00:29:34,822 Speaker 2: people that were involved, including Homeboy, which is Lenford Crawford, 480 00:29:34,862 --> 00:29:39,662 Speaker 2: who was really one of the key criminals that arranged 481 00:29:39,662 --> 00:29:42,342 Speaker 2: and set up the home invasion hang on. 482 00:29:42,462 --> 00:29:44,422 Speaker 1: So Danny Wong is involved. 483 00:29:45,382 --> 00:29:50,542 Speaker 2: Yeah, he introduced her to the guy named Homeboy, who 484 00:29:50,662 --> 00:29:53,502 Speaker 2: was the one that planned the whole home invasion, the 485 00:29:53,542 --> 00:29:56,102 Speaker 2: whole setup that she wanted, So he was the guy 486 00:29:56,302 --> 00:29:59,422 Speaker 2: that was right in behind it all. He was introduced 487 00:29:59,422 --> 00:30:00,622 Speaker 2: to her from Danny Wong. 488 00:30:01,342 --> 00:30:05,302 Speaker 1: Why would Danny Wong approve of her killing her parents? 489 00:30:06,662 --> 00:30:09,582 Speaker 2: Well, the theory is it was for some money that 490 00:30:09,662 --> 00:30:12,342 Speaker 2: he wanted and hope to get some of the money 491 00:30:12,502 --> 00:30:16,742 Speaker 2: from life insurance from the home sale, from whatever she 492 00:30:16,942 --> 00:30:19,822 Speaker 2: got from her parents from their death. 493 00:30:20,502 --> 00:30:22,622 Speaker 1: So from like the life insurance and stuff. 494 00:30:22,342 --> 00:30:25,822 Speaker 2: Like that, right, whatever she made. You know, they had 495 00:30:25,822 --> 00:30:28,862 Speaker 2: a half a million dollar home and two cars that 496 00:30:28,942 --> 00:30:32,542 Speaker 2: were you know, Mercedes and Lexus, and then any life 497 00:30:32,582 --> 00:30:34,902 Speaker 2: insurance and stuff, and she only had the one brother. 498 00:30:35,022 --> 00:30:38,542 Speaker 2: So whatever she profited, he would get a percentage of 499 00:30:38,582 --> 00:30:39,582 Speaker 2: it for helping her. 500 00:30:40,262 --> 00:30:41,862 Speaker 1: But was that Jennifer's main motive. 501 00:30:43,062 --> 00:30:44,662 Speaker 2: I don't want to speak for her, but I don't 502 00:30:44,662 --> 00:30:48,342 Speaker 2: think so. I don't think so. She really wanted Daniel 503 00:30:48,382 --> 00:30:51,742 Speaker 2: Wong back as a boyfriend. She really, I guess, was 504 00:30:51,742 --> 00:30:56,302 Speaker 2: in love with him. It was something she wanted and 505 00:30:56,382 --> 00:30:59,222 Speaker 2: I think it was her way of just being involved 506 00:30:59,262 --> 00:30:59,662 Speaker 2: with him. 507 00:31:01,302 --> 00:31:03,462 Speaker 1: So how many people have we got implicated? Now? We've 508 00:31:03,502 --> 00:31:06,502 Speaker 1: got Jennifer, We've got Danny is homeboy one of the 509 00:31:06,502 --> 00:31:09,142 Speaker 1: people that invade the house or is he separate? And 510 00:31:09,182 --> 00:31:11,302 Speaker 1: then we've also got three invaders. 511 00:31:12,062 --> 00:31:14,022 Speaker 2: Now he was one of the invaders him as well 512 00:31:14,062 --> 00:31:18,502 Speaker 2: as Eric Cardi and another guy named David malc Gallan. 513 00:31:19,262 --> 00:31:22,342 Speaker 2: The three of them were the home invaders. Danny Wong 514 00:31:22,502 --> 00:31:26,262 Speaker 2: was the introduction, you know, was the one that introduced 515 00:31:26,302 --> 00:31:29,942 Speaker 2: originally the homeboy who got Eric and David his two 516 00:31:30,022 --> 00:31:34,982 Speaker 2: cohorts to come and do the invasion and set up. 517 00:31:35,422 --> 00:31:37,222 Speaker 2: So that was kind of how it all worked. 518 00:31:38,462 --> 00:31:42,142 Speaker 1: So obviously we've got charges involved here. Everyone's charged, and 519 00:31:42,182 --> 00:31:44,462 Speaker 1: I want to skip to court because I would love 520 00:31:44,502 --> 00:31:47,822 Speaker 1: you to talk us through what the prosecution describe is 521 00:31:47,862 --> 00:31:51,502 Speaker 1: actually happening on that night in terms of the behind 522 00:31:51,502 --> 00:31:55,462 Speaker 1: the scenes organization Jennifer's movements. Can you walk us through it? 523 00:31:56,742 --> 00:32:00,502 Speaker 2: She was working with a cell phone, She was texting Homeboy, 524 00:32:00,582 --> 00:32:03,982 Speaker 2: and it would be because originally, one other night ahead 525 00:32:04,022 --> 00:32:07,942 Speaker 2: of time, she had backed out because of something. Then 526 00:32:08,022 --> 00:32:10,462 Speaker 2: on the night of the plan, she would text him 527 00:32:10,862 --> 00:32:13,302 Speaker 2: and he would say, Okay, everything's a go. They would 528 00:32:13,302 --> 00:32:17,422 Speaker 2: sort of texting back and forth, and once she gave 529 00:32:17,502 --> 00:32:20,382 Speaker 2: the go ahead, she waited for her mother to get 530 00:32:20,422 --> 00:32:23,622 Speaker 2: back from her line dancing. She was part of a 531 00:32:23,822 --> 00:32:27,182 Speaker 2: club that did line dancing, and so when she got 532 00:32:27,222 --> 00:32:30,022 Speaker 2: back around nine nine point thirty, once she was in 533 00:32:30,062 --> 00:32:33,542 Speaker 2: the home and downstairs and she was resting and soaking 534 00:32:33,542 --> 00:32:36,902 Speaker 2: her feet, and her father had retired for the night, 535 00:32:37,182 --> 00:32:39,462 Speaker 2: she would walk down and said good night to her mother, 536 00:32:39,502 --> 00:32:41,982 Speaker 2: and she went and unlocked the door. Then she came 537 00:32:42,102 --> 00:32:45,302 Speaker 2: back up the stairs and text Homeboy and saying yeah, okay, 538 00:32:45,302 --> 00:32:49,022 Speaker 2: it's all there, And then she was flashing the lights 539 00:32:49,622 --> 00:32:52,542 Speaker 2: in her bedroom to let them know everything was a go. 540 00:32:53,182 --> 00:32:55,062 Speaker 2: That was the last thing she had to do. And 541 00:32:55,142 --> 00:32:57,422 Speaker 2: so then they just walked right in the front door 542 00:32:58,022 --> 00:33:01,822 Speaker 2: and grabbed both parents. The father of the bedroom pulled 543 00:33:01,862 --> 00:33:04,742 Speaker 2: them out into the front room and held them both 544 00:33:04,782 --> 00:33:08,862 Speaker 2: at gunpoint and started their threats about where's the money 545 00:33:08,902 --> 00:33:12,582 Speaker 2: and stuff like that, and they shot both parents, killing 546 00:33:12,622 --> 00:33:16,742 Speaker 2: the mother, but only injuring the father. They shot him 547 00:33:16,742 --> 00:33:19,062 Speaker 2: in the head, but it went through the eye and 548 00:33:19,142 --> 00:33:21,982 Speaker 2: down his throat, so they thought he was dead, but 549 00:33:22,062 --> 00:33:22,942 Speaker 2: he wasn't. 550 00:33:24,102 --> 00:33:26,582 Speaker 1: What do we know about Homeboy and the other two 551 00:33:27,462 --> 00:33:31,822 Speaker 1: invaders or murderers? Were they contract killers that they've done 552 00:33:31,862 --> 00:33:34,102 Speaker 1: this before? Do we have any background on them? 553 00:33:35,222 --> 00:33:37,902 Speaker 2: Well, I wouldn't call them contract killers. They were definitely 554 00:33:38,102 --> 00:33:42,982 Speaker 2: people that had felonies and had done things before. Homeboy 555 00:33:43,182 --> 00:33:46,022 Speaker 2: was kind of the ring leader, as I guess, we 556 00:33:46,062 --> 00:33:49,262 Speaker 2: would call him and arranged everything and set it up 557 00:33:49,542 --> 00:33:53,662 Speaker 2: and brought in the other two to help them, And 558 00:33:54,182 --> 00:33:57,822 Speaker 2: he had claimed to have done several things, and had 559 00:33:57,862 --> 00:34:03,222 Speaker 2: done lots of minor things, but not to the extent 560 00:34:03,262 --> 00:34:05,942 Speaker 2: that he claimed like he claimed he had killed people 561 00:34:05,982 --> 00:34:07,982 Speaker 2: for money before and stuff that I don't think he 562 00:34:08,062 --> 00:34:11,262 Speaker 2: had quite that as big a record, as big as 563 00:34:11,782 --> 00:34:14,142 Speaker 2: name as he had told them that he had. 564 00:34:15,182 --> 00:34:17,822 Speaker 1: Did we have guilty plays for any of these people 565 00:34:17,862 --> 00:34:20,942 Speaker 1: involved or everyone kind of said they were not guilty. 566 00:34:21,982 --> 00:34:24,502 Speaker 2: Well, originally everyone said they were not guilty, but they 567 00:34:24,542 --> 00:34:29,782 Speaker 2: all got convicted of it and we're all given life. 568 00:34:30,022 --> 00:34:34,462 Speaker 2: I think the only person that had a retrial I 569 00:34:34,582 --> 00:34:39,142 Speaker 2: believe that was Eric Cardy because he was ill at 570 00:34:39,182 --> 00:34:41,502 Speaker 2: the time of the trial. They give him a retrial 571 00:34:41,942 --> 00:34:45,502 Speaker 2: and he still got eighteen years, not life, but he 572 00:34:45,542 --> 00:34:46,902 Speaker 2: got an eighteen year sentence. 573 00:34:47,702 --> 00:34:50,102 Speaker 1: There wasn't a lot of actual physical evidence. Obviously they 574 00:34:50,142 --> 00:34:52,142 Speaker 1: had all the text messages and everything, but they couldn't 575 00:34:52,902 --> 00:34:57,342 Speaker 1: actually work out who pulled the trigger or the exact details, 576 00:34:57,382 --> 00:34:57,742 Speaker 1: could they. 577 00:34:58,942 --> 00:35:03,622 Speaker 2: Yeah, they lacked the physical evidence of the weapons. So 578 00:35:03,862 --> 00:35:07,302 Speaker 2: for them to determine of the three who actually did it, 579 00:35:07,302 --> 00:35:10,422 Speaker 2: they had to rely on each other and their own 580 00:35:10,542 --> 00:35:14,702 Speaker 2: testimony and their own foreign statements of who they blamed 581 00:35:14,742 --> 00:35:18,102 Speaker 2: and stuff. So it was tough because you're going by 582 00:35:19,062 --> 00:35:23,742 Speaker 2: liars testimonies. They were all sort of giving away the 583 00:35:23,782 --> 00:35:26,582 Speaker 2: goods on each other, but it was no hard evidence. 584 00:35:27,782 --> 00:35:32,902 Speaker 1: Do you remember how Jennifer behaved or acted during that trial. 585 00:35:33,062 --> 00:35:35,902 Speaker 1: Was she showing any signs of remorse? Was she sitting 586 00:35:35,942 --> 00:35:36,662 Speaker 1: there silently? 587 00:35:38,462 --> 00:35:42,742 Speaker 2: There was no remorse. She'd sat silently. The only time 588 00:35:42,822 --> 00:35:45,942 Speaker 2: she showed any emotion during the trial itself was when 589 00:35:45,982 --> 00:35:50,022 Speaker 2: the father was brought in to testify and to talk 590 00:35:50,262 --> 00:35:52,662 Speaker 2: to the court. That was the only time she had 591 00:35:52,702 --> 00:35:55,862 Speaker 2: any sort of emotion that you would notice. And even 592 00:35:55,902 --> 00:35:59,462 Speaker 2: when she was convicted. At first, she was really quiet 593 00:35:59,502 --> 00:36:01,862 Speaker 2: for quite a while before she broke down, so she 594 00:36:02,022 --> 00:36:04,822 Speaker 2: was very stern. I guess that would be the best 595 00:36:04,862 --> 00:36:05,742 Speaker 2: way to say it. 596 00:36:06,782 --> 00:36:09,862 Speaker 1: Did we ever find out about all of those harassing 597 00:36:09,942 --> 00:36:11,582 Speaker 1: text misses where they came from? 598 00:36:12,742 --> 00:36:17,102 Speaker 2: It was all Jennifer's. She was behind all of the 599 00:36:17,102 --> 00:36:20,382 Speaker 2: main stuff. She created all of it. Let's just say 600 00:36:20,382 --> 00:36:24,022 Speaker 2: that without giving away too much in the detail, but 601 00:36:24,182 --> 00:36:25,462 Speaker 2: she was behind most of it. 602 00:36:26,782 --> 00:36:29,782 Speaker 1: We've talked about the initial media coverage before we knew 603 00:36:29,822 --> 00:36:34,382 Speaker 1: about Jennifer and Homeboy and Danny. How did the media 604 00:36:34,422 --> 00:36:35,702 Speaker 1: react to all of this though? 605 00:36:36,622 --> 00:36:40,062 Speaker 2: They really went to town on her and her involvement and 606 00:36:40,102 --> 00:36:44,102 Speaker 2: being behind it and hiring people to kill the parents 607 00:36:44,182 --> 00:36:48,302 Speaker 2: for basically money, and so that was a big shock 608 00:36:48,342 --> 00:36:51,022 Speaker 2: in the community. But it was also a relief in 609 00:36:51,062 --> 00:36:54,542 Speaker 2: the sense that there wasn't just random people going around 610 00:36:54,622 --> 00:36:59,182 Speaker 2: doing home invasions and killing others for their money and possessions. 611 00:36:59,262 --> 00:37:01,702 Speaker 2: So that was a relief on one side, But it 612 00:37:01,742 --> 00:37:06,182 Speaker 2: was a shock that such a sweet girl that seemed 613 00:37:06,302 --> 00:37:10,902 Speaker 2: very nice to the people that knew her would do that. 614 00:37:12,462 --> 00:37:16,782 Speaker 1: You mentioned before that Jennifer doesn't have contact with her dad. 615 00:37:18,062 --> 00:37:21,542 Speaker 1: Does she have contact with any family, her brother, aunts 616 00:37:21,582 --> 00:37:24,822 Speaker 1: and uncles, or is she very cut off now It's. 617 00:37:24,742 --> 00:37:27,382 Speaker 2: Kind of mixed. I think with her brother, at first 618 00:37:27,982 --> 00:37:30,742 Speaker 2: they were communicating and close and then they sort of 619 00:37:30,782 --> 00:37:33,822 Speaker 2: fell apart. As of recent times, they sort of had 620 00:37:33,862 --> 00:37:39,262 Speaker 2: a separation in communications. Most of the family doesn't talk 621 00:37:39,302 --> 00:37:44,222 Speaker 2: to her and are not too close with her since this. 622 00:37:44,382 --> 00:37:46,622 Speaker 2: And a lot of her friends too, the ones that 623 00:37:46,782 --> 00:37:49,102 Speaker 2: talk through the book and through the shows and stuff 624 00:37:49,142 --> 00:37:52,742 Speaker 2: that are out in different interviews and stuff, they don't 625 00:37:52,782 --> 00:37:55,142 Speaker 2: know if they can trust her. They feel a distance 626 00:37:55,262 --> 00:37:57,542 Speaker 2: to her because she alied to them a lot. 627 00:37:59,182 --> 00:38:01,302 Speaker 1: This is one of those stories that we actually have 628 00:38:01,342 --> 00:38:03,462 Speaker 1: a bit of an update on. It wasn't the end 629 00:38:03,622 --> 00:38:07,382 Speaker 1: when they all got sentenced. There's a new update in 630 00:38:07,422 --> 00:38:09,822 Speaker 1: twenty twenty four. Can you talk us through that. 631 00:38:11,502 --> 00:38:14,982 Speaker 2: Yeah, they've all been given a retrial in the case 632 00:38:15,542 --> 00:38:18,622 Speaker 2: for different reasons. I'm sure the country will be on 633 00:38:18,822 --> 00:38:23,022 Speaker 2: edge watching to make sure that they remain behind bars, 634 00:38:23,622 --> 00:38:24,662 Speaker 2: especially Jannifer. 635 00:38:29,822 --> 00:38:32,702 Speaker 1: In twenty twenty three, Pan was granted a new trial 636 00:38:32,782 --> 00:38:35,542 Speaker 1: for the murder of her mother, with her conviction overturned. 637 00:38:36,262 --> 00:38:38,862 Speaker 1: Three of her co accused, including her on again, off 638 00:38:38,902 --> 00:38:42,622 Speaker 1: again boyfriend, were granted the same the panel of judges 639 00:38:42,662 --> 00:38:46,382 Speaker 1: presiding over the appeal decided that the original trial judge 640 00:38:46,382 --> 00:38:49,502 Speaker 1: had made a critical error by instructing the jury that 641 00:38:49,542 --> 00:38:51,822 Speaker 1: they were only able to consider the option of first 642 00:38:51,822 --> 00:38:54,862 Speaker 1: degree murder, as opposed to also being able to consider 643 00:38:55,022 --> 00:38:58,982 Speaker 1: second degree murder or manslaughter. The convictions for the attempted 644 00:38:59,022 --> 00:39:03,742 Speaker 1: murder of Han, however, remain. In response, the Crown filed 645 00:39:03,782 --> 00:39:06,622 Speaker 1: its own appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada to 646 00:39:06,662 --> 00:39:10,062 Speaker 1: decide whether the original decision or the appeal Court's decision 647 00:39:10,102 --> 00:39:13,702 Speaker 1: was correre. At the time of recording, the Supreme Court 648 00:39:13,702 --> 00:39:16,062 Speaker 1: of Canada is in the process of determining if it 649 00:39:16,142 --> 00:39:19,302 Speaker 1: will review the case. Thank you for listening to this 650 00:39:19,382 --> 00:39:22,582 Speaker 1: episode of True Crime Conversations and thanks to Alan for 651 00:39:22,582 --> 00:39:25,462 Speaker 1: assisting us to tell this story. You can find his 652 00:39:25,502 --> 00:39:29,102 Speaker 1: book Deadly Betrayal, The True Story of Jennifer Pan linked 653 00:39:29,102 --> 00:39:31,022 Speaker 1: in our show notes if you'd like to learn more 654 00:39:31,102 --> 00:39:34,742 Speaker 1: about this case. True Crime Conversations is a Muma mea 655 00:39:34,782 --> 00:39:38,502 Speaker 1: podcast hosted and produced by me Jemma Bars, with audio 656 00:39:38,542 --> 00:39:42,782 Speaker 1: design by Scott Stronik. Our executive producer is Giam Moylan. 657 00:39:43,422 --> 00:39:46,302 Speaker 1: I'll be back next week with another true crime conversation,