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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mama Mayor acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.

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Speaker 3: Everyone says, you know what resource did you have when

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Speaker 3: you got fired?

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Speaker 4: And I said I had Laura Brown.

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Speaker 3: You know, I texted her under the table while I

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Speaker 3: was being told I was being fired and I said, hey,

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Speaker 3: call me when you wake up getting the boot.

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Speaker 5: Have you ever been fired sacked given the old boot

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Speaker 5: up the ass? Well, I have, strangely not in all

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Speaker 5: my years in radio where that's supposed to happen regularly,

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Speaker 5: But only a couple of months ago when a show

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Speaker 5: I was doing called The Project got axed and it

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Speaker 5: was really foundationally shocking in lots of ways. Maybe not huge,

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Speaker 5: but everything in you has to kind of recalibrate. And

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Speaker 5: I wasn't even doing the project full time. I was

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Speaker 5: there once a week, and to have lost that has

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Speaker 5: ripple in the pond effects upon me even now. So

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Speaker 5: today's guests, who were two of the most respected, admired

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Speaker 5: and stylish women in modern publishing, Laura Brown and Christina O'Neill.

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Speaker 5: For them to have written a book after spending decades

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Speaker 5: shaping the worlds of media, fashion and pop culture, and

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Speaker 5: to have written a book about being fired is quite incredible.

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Speaker 5: When the so called dream job turned into a nightmare,

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Speaker 5: both of them were unceremoniously fired, and they were both

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Speaker 5: at the top of their game. Getting fired isn't.

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Speaker 2: Just career ending.

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Speaker 5: It can feel traumatizing and shameful. It strips away not

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Speaker 5: just your job title, but often your sense of identity

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Speaker 5: and your friendships. And yet, instead of disappearing, Laura and

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Speaker 5: Christina teamed up and together they wrote the best selling

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Speaker 5: memoir manifesto, All the Cool Girls Get Fired are funny,

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Speaker 5: painfully honest, and surprisingly empowering book about success, failure, and

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Speaker 5: starting over. It's part memoir, is part manifesto, and part

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Speaker 5: group therapy for anyone who's ever tied their own self

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Speaker 5: worth to their job title and lost both. In this conversation,

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Speaker 5: Laura and Christina pulled back the velvet curtain on fame, fashion,

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Speaker 5: and the cult of success. We talk about the fantasy

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Speaker 5: and fallout of dream jobs, the wisdom that comes from

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Speaker 5: losing everything, and why sometimes the best thing that can

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Speaker 5: happen to your career and your life is getting fired.

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Speaker 2: Christina O'Neil, Laura Brown welcome to No Filter.

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Speaker 1: Thank you very much.

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Speaker 2: I was in bed with you last night.

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Speaker 5: I was in bed with your book All the Cool

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Speaker 5: good Bye. You were so good that I had to

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Speaker 5: keep taking screenshots of what was going on and sending

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Speaker 5: them to girlfriends because it was Yes, that's the highest

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Speaker 5: it actually is. So the book is.

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Speaker 1: All the cool girls get fired. See, yeah, you have

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Speaker 1: our own march.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Because the I mean, it's a product very much of

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Speaker 5: the times, very much, and I think to a certain extent,

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Speaker 5: the whole world is like the people of the world

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Speaker 5: are like the frogs in boiling water. So it kind

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Speaker 5: of started, ah, this is great, splashing around whatever. Now

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Speaker 5: things are boiling. Things are boiling, but we haven't kind

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Speaker 5: of noticed it. Just when I reading your book, I

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Speaker 5: was reflecting on the people that I knew, people who

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Speaker 5: were great at what they do, who have been fired

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Speaker 5: in the.

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Speaker 1: Last growing number of them.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, And then I realized, for.

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Speaker 3: Two years since we set out to write this book,

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Speaker 3: the landscape has shifted so dramatically.

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Speaker 2: It really is.

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Speaker 5: And I realized, far from reading it just as like

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Speaker 5: a spectator, I went hang on. I was working on

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Speaker 5: a TV show that got axed in August.

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Speaker 2: Hang on, that's also me when you were call.

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Speaker 5: Well, I am now, I am now because I've been fired.

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Speaker 1: It's a situational thing. Yeah, we started, you know, we

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Speaker 1: both got hit canned, you know, a year apart, twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty two and twenty twenty three, and we were obviously

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Speaker 1: speaking from our own experience and our experience being in

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Speaker 1: the media, and media was kind of the the tip

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Speaker 1: of the spear, you know for so many of these

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Speaker 1: of these layoffs and the sort of microcosm of all

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Speaker 1: of these things that have since infected so many other

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Speaker 1: different industries, industries born from either tech you know, AI,

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Speaker 1: and of all the change there and especially in the

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Speaker 1: United States, the change of administration, all the job loss

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Speaker 1: that's happened here, and it is just an absolute tsunami

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Speaker 1: of job loss born from all of this change. And

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Speaker 1: we could never have conceived that in the two years

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Speaker 1: since we started this process that it would be the

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Speaker 1: volume would be where it is today. And it's not

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Speaker 1: it's not personal. That's the thing. There's so many people

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Speaker 1: getting fired, there's so many people getting laid off, there's

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Speaker 1: so much change. This is the biggest message of the

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Speaker 1: book is that I don't take it personally because it's

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Speaker 1: not about you more like ninety five percent of the

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Speaker 1: time these days.

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Speaker 5: Well, I know that neither of you have to establish

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Speaker 5: your credentials as far as as far as being brilliant goes.

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Speaker 5: And both of you were editors in chief, like really

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Speaker 5: at the top of your game, Like you would think

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Speaker 5: that if anyone was fireproof, it would be you two.

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Speaker 2: And yet not.

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Speaker 5: And Christina, you were Wall Street Journal, the magazine height

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Speaker 5: of lux, really editor in chief. You had been friends

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Speaker 5: with Laura, acquaintances or friends since.

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Speaker 2: You arrived in New York, and you met at a.

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Speaker 5: Mark Jacob's show Laura the week of September eleven, Yes,

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Speaker 5: September tenth.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so that was, you know, twenty four years ago now,

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Speaker 3: and we were acquaintances at first, obviously casually meeting, you know,

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Speaker 3: the night before the world changed, but became you know,

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Speaker 3: close confidence and comrades at Harper's Bazaar, where we worked

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Speaker 3: alongside each other for eight years until I went to

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Speaker 3: the Journal, and not long after Laura went to In Style.

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Speaker 2: What did you do at Harper's and what was Laura doing?

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Speaker 3: I was at Harper's Bazar for twelve years, so I

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Speaker 3: grew through the ranks. I started out as a fashion

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Speaker 3: features writer, which is the sort of lowest role in

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Speaker 3: the fashion features department, and I rose to the number

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Speaker 3: two position during my tenure. I was the executive editor

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Speaker 3: by the time I left.

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Speaker 1: And I started in a features more of a features role,

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Speaker 1: so there was fashion features and features basically. I think

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Speaker 1: my first role was some a very odd American term

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Speaker 1: called articles editor, and I was like, do I just

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Speaker 1: edit articles? Okay? And and then sort of faintly masochistically,

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Speaker 1: took on a lot of the celebrity booking and the covers.

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Speaker 1: And so when I was there towards my I was

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Speaker 1: there eleven years I went out. My last title there

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Speaker 1: was executive editor Special Projects. So it was that sort

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Speaker 1: of sphere, but more a lot of the jazz handing

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Speaker 1: and creative stuff, a lot of the sort of circ

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Speaker 1: us ale a.

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Speaker 5: Magazine, Yeah, right, with Innate or without Innate, oh without.

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Speaker 1: Your your net grows, as you know, as obviously your

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Speaker 1: experience grows, and your fears of size because it's very

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Speaker 1: it's very intimidating, you know, starting in a role like that,

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Speaker 1: and especially dealing with famous people and you know, powerful

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Speaker 1: designers and publicists and all of these sort of great

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Speaker 1: power wielders with whom you become more familiar, and so

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Speaker 1: you know, you end up building your own net.

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Speaker 5: And you had arrived, Laura in that in that fateful

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Speaker 5: week in two thousand and one, just as a cheek

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Speaker 5: from Sydney.

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Speaker 1: Big dreams, babe, yeah, ex dreams. Yeah, I had what

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Speaker 1: I bought two bags and a dream, two bags and

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Speaker 1: one and a half friends, yes, and five grand yes?

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Speaker 2: And what was your plan?

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Speaker 1: My plan was? And I think, look, I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: we're all, you know, similar sort of generations. I think that,

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Speaker 1: you know, especially in Australia, we grew up without the Internet.

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Speaker 1: We grew up without all of these things that teenagers

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Speaker 1: and young adults have now. So we all can still

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Speaker 1: mythologized fashion and all of those things, but we didn't

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Speaker 1: have all the access to it that you do now.

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Speaker 1: So I was obsessed with magazines, so as Christina. You know,

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Speaker 1: we both grew up as teenagers obsessed with that. But

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Speaker 1: we but we had the tyranny of distance, you know,

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Speaker 1: we were far away, and so for me, I was

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Speaker 1: just desperate too. I was like, if I'm going to

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Speaker 1: work in magazines, I need to work in the center

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Speaker 1: of magazines, and the center of magazines is New York City.

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Speaker 1: So I'm going to save up my money and get

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Speaker 1: my little Lisa and show up and work it out.

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Speaker 1: And it was that sort of guileless is what's very aussy,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's like, okay, I get it go and

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Speaker 1: showed up and obviously we met on this particular evening,

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Speaker 1: and then September eleventh happened, and it was the next

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Speaker 1: the next the next night, next day, next morning, next morning.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we woke up to a totally different world.

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Speaker 1: Obviously. Look, we were lucky to we didn't lose you know,

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Speaker 1: friends or family, and we were okay. But it was

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Speaker 1: a shock that you know, the city and the whole

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Speaker 1: country dealt with for a long time. So I didn't

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Speaker 1: I did freelancing, and I think my first my first

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Speaker 1: job probably came first role was like the next January

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Speaker 1: when I actually got a job at Talk magazine, which

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Speaker 1: is again a crazy time capsule. That's Tina Brown and

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Speaker 1: Harvey Weinstein.

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Speaker 6: So I've heard of him, Yeah, yeah, he tends to

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Speaker 6: pop up generally in a courtroom.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, exactly. But it was a long time ago

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Speaker 1: and a lot's changed.

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Speaker 5: Well, so much changed, but in that time both of

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Speaker 5: you were on a trajectory that was upwards, a testament to.

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Speaker 2: Working hard.

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Speaker 1: Hustle.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, hussle, hussle in the city that never sleeps.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you really do need to sleep, doc I'll

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Speaker 1: tell you that. No, we were really excited to be here,

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Speaker 1: and we sort of joke in the book that we

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Speaker 1: we we really considered Sex and the City to be

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Speaker 1: a documentary. You know, we we loved all that, we

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Speaker 1: were emanticize it so much, and we were of that age.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I was twenty seven when I arrived at

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Speaker 1: Christina's too, missage twenty five, where you are just running

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Speaker 1: and you're so upciting, You're three things in a night.

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Speaker 1: You don't want to miss anything, and you want to

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Speaker 1: get up and you want to do it again. And

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Speaker 1: the beauty of living in New York is at the

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Speaker 1: beginning of the week, you never know how it's going

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Speaker 1: to end. You never know who you're going to meet

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Speaker 1: and what experience you're going to have, and that's really hypnotic.

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Speaker 1: And so we did this for a really long time,

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Speaker 1: and it did because also we could acquit ourselves and

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Speaker 1: we were good at what we did. We were enthusiastic

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Speaker 1: about it, and we could do the job well. So

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Speaker 1: in a reasonable world, you should, you know, ascend to

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Speaker 1: a higher role if you do a good job.

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Speaker 5: Well, of course, and you were both doing not a

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Speaker 5: good job. You were both doing great jobs, and you

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Speaker 5: were doing them greatly. Okay, Well, I mean iconic covers,

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Speaker 5: you know, in style and Christina wsj amazing, thank you.

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Speaker 5: But the icy waters started to lap at your feet.

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Speaker 2: In retro select, well, in retrospect.

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Speaker 5: You can things become so much more obvious than they

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Speaker 5: are at the time, respectively. When did you start to

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Speaker 5: realize because it happened for you first, Laura, that me

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Speaker 5: that the long knives were coming, the.

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Speaker 1: Long knives in the icy water. Get out.

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Speaker 2: All you need is Rihanna with a shark.

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Speaker 1: This is advanced, thank you, This is advanced pirate pirating here.

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Speaker 1: I think that you know, when even when I was

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Speaker 1: hired as editor in chief Events, it was certainly where

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Speaker 1: those heady days of those literary days of betitor in

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Speaker 1: chief roles in town cars and everything were no longer

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Speaker 1: even when I started. And so that was twenty sixteen,

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Speaker 1: and you know, there was the first trump administration and

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Speaker 1: then you know, we're pretty soon that, you know, in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty it was COVID and all of this kind

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Speaker 1: of you know, real headwinds. And at the same time,

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Speaker 1: in my time in Style, which was about five and

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Speaker 1: a half years, I worked for three different publishers, so

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Speaker 1: Time Inc. Who hired me, died pretty soon after the

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Speaker 1: Emeritive Corporation took over, and then we were bought by

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Speaker 1: a company called dot Dash in late twenty twenty one.

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Speaker 1: So there was so much change in legacy media. The

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Speaker 1: economy was challenged. You know, digital was threatening everything, Social

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Speaker 1: media was threatening, everything advertising was down. All of these

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Speaker 1: things that have powered you know, businesses like Mamma Mia

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Speaker 1: and all the things that we embraced now are the

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Speaker 1: things that actually threatened the traditional you know, media landscape.

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Speaker 1: I certainly saw that I understood the Internet. You know,

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Speaker 1: we existed in that sphere, but it depended on how

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Speaker 1: each each company was going to approach it and what

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Speaker 1: their investment would be and what their belief was. And

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Speaker 1: for us, I was you know, I was happy there.

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Speaker 1: I did great work there. I did some of our

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Speaker 1: best work during COVID because the stakes were really high

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Speaker 1: and we wanted to be include people and make them

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Speaker 1: feel seen and cared for during and stimulated during such

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Speaker 1: a challenging time. But at the same time, towards the

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Speaker 1: end of my five is years, I was a little

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Speaker 1: bit like I caught like a dog with a head

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Speaker 1: out the window. I was a bit like, I kind

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Speaker 1: of want to do my own thing eventually, and I'd

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Speaker 1: be like like this and I'm my managing it. It would

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Speaker 1: be like we don't have a budget, and oh and

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Speaker 1: I was a little bit you know, on like out there.

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Speaker 1: But I certainly did not expect that we would all

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Speaker 1: be let go, probably a good ten months a year

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Speaker 1: before I'd even thought about leaving. So even though I'd

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Speaker 1: certainly read the room and thankfully had enough kind of

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Speaker 1: mojo out there as Laura Brown or as I'll be

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Speaker 1: you know, to I think insure myself, it was still

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Speaker 1: it was it was still a shock.

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Speaker 5: Terrible, like devastading, devastating. And it's it's interesting wild because

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Speaker 5: the book helps you process so much of being let go,

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Speaker 5: from that initial stomach dropping, like life totally exploding moment

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Speaker 5: really of when you're released from everything that you knew

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Speaker 5: and that you've committed so much of your life too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and Christina was you know, very established in her

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Speaker 1: she was, Yes, she could have been saying.

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Speaker 5: There, So Christina, you thought that you had the job

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Speaker 5: that you would love forever.

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Speaker 4: I had.

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Speaker 3: There was no head out the window in my scenario.

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Speaker 3: In fact, you know, the journal was in a in

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Speaker 3: a really you know, it was going from strength to strength.

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Speaker 3: The newspaper had added a ton of subscriptions during COVID,

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Speaker 3: during the first you know, Trump one, things were you know,

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Speaker 3: I had consolidated a lot in the luxury you know

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Speaker 3: industry and luxury market where you know, to be a

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Speaker 3: part of a newspaper, you know, and that sort of

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Speaker 3: you know, qualified audience became you know, increasingly the place

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Speaker 3: where advertisers wanted to you know, spend their spend their dollars.

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Speaker 3: So the magazine, you know, during my tenure had just

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Speaker 3: grown and become incredibly, incredibly profitable. So you know, while

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Speaker 3: that's happening, you know, what I don't know, and what

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Speaker 3: I'm not privy to, is what was happening at the top.

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Speaker 3: And there was a regime change on the newspaper. There

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Speaker 3: was a new editor who was brought in in December,

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Speaker 3: and you know when she started. You know, there was

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Speaker 3: a period you know, every editor sort of given a

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Speaker 3: grace period. I'm over here running a you know, sort

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Speaker 3: of secondary product for the business. I'm not core to

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Speaker 3: you know, the news mission.

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Speaker 4: In a way that you know.

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Speaker 3: I sort of justified the fact that we weren't engaging initially,

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Speaker 3: you know, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, new editing it.

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Speaker 3: So I was sort of like, I'm not a high priority,

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Speaker 3: like wherever you're making money, everything's going well, like you know,

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to take any of this personally. Well,

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Speaker 3: the longer the sort of you know, this is the hindsight, right,

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Speaker 3: the longer the you know it took for that meeting

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Speaker 3: to lock in, for me to finally kind of connect

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Speaker 3: with her and you know introduce myself properly and kind

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Speaker 3: of get into you know, the hopes and dreams and

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Speaker 3: ambitions you know that we had for the for the magazine.

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Speaker 3: You know, as that kept getting they can get kept

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Speaker 3: getting kicked down the road.

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Speaker 5: You know, when we finally you couldn't get a meeting,

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Speaker 5: You couldn't get a meeting.

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Speaker 3: Couldn't get a meeting, had a meeting, you know, travel

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Speaker 3: dates changed, you know, priorities, you know, there were you

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Speaker 3: know a lot of things. You know, in the newsroom

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Speaker 3: there there's a lot that goes on in a single day,

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Speaker 3: let alone, you know, the start of a new editor's tenure.

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Speaker 3: So I sort of explained, you know, I was not

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Speaker 3: hung up on this, you know, obviously hindsight's twenty twenty.

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Speaker 3: But I sort of took it all to me and like,

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Speaker 3: keep your head down and keep doing a good job.

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Speaker 3: And so when we finally had our first meeting, the

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Speaker 3: meeting had been scheduled to be in her office and

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Speaker 3: it was changed to the HR conference room about seven

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Speaker 3: minutes before.

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Speaker 5: No one ever wants to No one ever wants their

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Speaker 5: meeting b in the HR office.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, speaking of the cam.

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Speaker 5: Yes, so Christine, Yeah, yeah, you knew so, Christina, but

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Speaker 5: yours had happened.

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Speaker 2: And this is your.

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Speaker 5: Very good fortune. You're very good fortune to be friends

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Speaker 5: with Laura Brown, who had the bad fortune to be

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Speaker 5: sacked a.

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Speaker 2: Year before you. Exactly.

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Speaker 5: But that's amazing, wasn't it. First you were the first call.

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Speaker 3: Everyone says, you know, what resource did you have when

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Speaker 3: you got fired?

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Speaker 4: And I said, I had Laura Brown.

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Speaker 3: You know, I texted her under the table while I

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Speaker 3: was being told.

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Speaker 4: I was being fired.

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Speaker 2: Really, what did you say?

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Speaker 4: Well, I knew she was traveling.

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Speaker 3: She was actually in South Africa, of all places. And

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Speaker 3: I said, hey, call me when you wake up getting

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Speaker 3: the boots.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, I think I just was woken

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Speaker 1: up the moment, the night of them, and I went, oh,

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Speaker 1: but it was just like it was so present tense,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, okay, well i'll call it tomorrow.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, I think that there was some I think

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Speaker 1: I was, you know, And actually some of Christina's friends

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Speaker 1: laughed kind of long and loud that I was first,

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Speaker 1: because at least we had helped her, you know, and

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Speaker 1: I was like, I was sort of further.

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Speaker 4: Up the trailblazer.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well what a pioneer.

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Speaker 5: And no one wants to be the first pancake, but

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Speaker 5: you were the first pancake.

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Speaker 1: Now I was the first. I was a bit crispy,

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Speaker 1: but I was, you know, further up the road and

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Speaker 1: had a flashlight, you know, and I sort of light

365
00:20:14,125 --> 00:20:17,445
Speaker 1: the way, and I was, dare say, doing great? Good?

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Speaker 1: If not, if not better? I was certainly there's a

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Speaker 1: little brickety obviously when you're starting something on your own,

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Speaker 1: but you have so much more control and and the

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Speaker 1: joy you feel when your fate isn't controlled by these

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Speaker 1: sort of grover lords as I as I would call them,

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Speaker 1: you know. And and so I was just Christina, and

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Speaker 1: I was I mean, I feel like I was, but

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Speaker 1: I was just happier.

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Speaker 3: When she got back, she said, let's go out and celebrate.

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Speaker 4: Celebrate, you know. But Laura already had.

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Speaker 3: The perspective that I think so many people, you know,

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Speaker 3: lack in the instant this happens. And and you know,

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Speaker 3: obviously this is so much of the message in the

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Speaker 3: book is the minute something like this happens to you,

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Speaker 3: you are panicking, You.

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Speaker 4: Are freaking out.

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Speaker 3: There is no clarity, there's no silver lining, you know,

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Speaker 3: there's no joking about celebrating in the moment.

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Speaker 4: And this is the book that.

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Speaker 3: You know, you sort of wish that HR pushed at

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Speaker 3: you along with that packet of paper, because I think

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Speaker 3: it does give the silver lining.

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Speaker 5: More with the authors of All the Cool Girls Get Fired,

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Speaker 5: Laura Brown and Christina O'Neil, after this short break, make

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Speaker 5: sure you stay with us in that moment, Laura, So

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Speaker 5: you already so when Christina got the boot, you could

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Speaker 5: already message her and say, let's celebrate because you knew

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Speaker 5: that this would be a time of freedom.

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Speaker 1: For me to celebration part of it. I think that

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Speaker 1: fashion is a very ritualistic based industry, and it's very

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Speaker 1: status based industry, so very obvious, you know, And I

397
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Speaker 1: think if you do that for too long, you can

398
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Speaker 1: get a bit whatsoever, not Stockholm, but not that extreme,

399
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Speaker 1: you know, you can get a bit institutionalized to it,

400
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Speaker 1: and it becomes what you think your life is. Christine

401
00:22:09,605 --> 00:22:11,365
Speaker 1: has always been pragmatic and she's always had a solid

402
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Speaker 1: sense of herself. But there's always that risk and I

403
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Speaker 1: think that sometimes and after having been like tipped out

404
00:22:17,125 --> 00:22:21,285
Speaker 1: of a nesta as I was, I could see that

405
00:22:21,365 --> 00:22:25,245
Speaker 1: it would be good for her, you know, psychologically in

406
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Speaker 1: the end. It wasn't going to feel good for her

407
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Speaker 1: in that first week. It wasn't going to feel good

408
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Speaker 1: for in the first three years, yes, but it was

409
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Speaker 1: she was going to get to that point, you know,

410
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Speaker 1: where she turned that corner. I was like, oh, well,

411
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Speaker 1: thank god that happened, because it opened up a breadth

412
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Speaker 1: of opportunity that she hadn't seen before.

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Speaker 5: So Laura, in your case, you didn't have a Laura.

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Speaker 5: So what was the gag?

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Speaker 1: I this one.

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Speaker 2: You only had this one, and this.

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Speaker 5: One's pretty good, but this one, I think it had

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Speaker 5: not the stuffing out of you for how long?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I've got to say, like, there's a couple

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Speaker 1: of things that I think I had a certain level

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Speaker 1: of insurance. I think the biggest part, you know, some

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00:23:08,765 --> 00:23:10,645
Speaker 1: of the biggest trauma about losing a job. It's like

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Speaker 1: a breakup. It is it is it's a routine and

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Speaker 1: a ritual that you were used to having and it's

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Speaker 1: taken away from you. So it depends on how much

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00:23:17,845 --> 00:23:20,445
Speaker 1: you attached to that number one, and how much of

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00:23:20,485 --> 00:23:22,765
Speaker 1: yourself you insert into that, and how much of your

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Speaker 1: value you gather from that. And I loved it, and

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Speaker 1: of course I enjoyed going to fashion shows and sitting

430
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Speaker 1: in the front row and all that kind of stuff.

431
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Speaker 1: But there was a there was a good, decent part

432
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Speaker 1: of me, and it could be the Aussie part, could

433
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Speaker 1: be any of that that I had a foot out

434
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Speaker 1: always and I had you know, I existed as myself

435
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Speaker 1: in social media. So as much as it would be

436
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Speaker 1: like here I am at the door show would also

437
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Speaker 1: be like here I am with the Koala, and so

438
00:23:44,765 --> 00:23:49,645
Speaker 1: I sort of tacitly understood that that was my insurance.

439
00:23:49,845 --> 00:23:51,925
Speaker 1: So I had that going on, which I think saved

440
00:23:52,005 --> 00:23:56,685
Speaker 1: me mentally in a pretty respectable way. And also I

441
00:23:56,765 --> 00:24:00,285
Speaker 1: was I was getting married two months later, and that

442
00:24:00,485 --> 00:24:01,965
Speaker 1: was I was lucky for that, even though I was like,

443
00:24:01,965 --> 00:24:03,725
Speaker 1: how the hell I'm going to pay for this because

444
00:24:03,765 --> 00:24:06,485
Speaker 1: there's no more money coming. It was a pretty big distraction.

445
00:24:06,725 --> 00:24:08,645
Speaker 1: And so it was like I was a bit like, Okay,

446
00:24:08,645 --> 00:24:11,165
Speaker 1: this is February, getting married in April, and was the

447
00:24:11,165 --> 00:24:13,445
Speaker 1: first time people would ever really be together after all

448
00:24:13,445 --> 00:24:16,085
Speaker 1: the COVID that the Aussies had finally gotten sprung, you know,

449
00:24:16,125 --> 00:24:19,085
Speaker 1: And so I could just be a bit like, buther it,

450
00:24:19,165 --> 00:24:21,525
Speaker 1: I'll go and I'll go and have some lunches and

451
00:24:21,565 --> 00:24:23,005
Speaker 1: everything else. But I knew I didn't want to work

452
00:24:23,005 --> 00:24:25,125
Speaker 1: in magazines again, so I was very clear on that too.

453
00:24:25,205 --> 00:24:26,925
Speaker 1: So I was like, let's just go and do this,

454
00:24:27,045 --> 00:24:31,325
Speaker 1: and let's have enough of a runway, enough savings, enough

455
00:24:31,325 --> 00:24:33,605
Speaker 1: stuff that I can just kind of sit with it

456
00:24:34,205 --> 00:24:37,085
Speaker 1: and see who comes calling this way rather than the

457
00:24:37,165 --> 00:24:39,165
Speaker 1: other way. Because I think I'd made a couple of

458
00:24:39,845 --> 00:24:43,165
Speaker 1: some decisions and some sort of gain. I'd bought myself

459
00:24:43,245 --> 00:24:47,805
Speaker 1: some insurance that I knew I would be okay as myself.

460
00:24:48,365 --> 00:24:51,245
Speaker 1: So yeah, but there is of course there's fomo. There's fomo.

461
00:24:51,365 --> 00:24:54,525
Speaker 1: The first first time the fashion shows come around and

462
00:24:54,525 --> 00:24:57,245
Speaker 1: it's not like a key part of your job anymore,

463
00:24:57,365 --> 00:25:00,685
Speaker 1: so you sort of make these decisions and I sort

464
00:25:00,685 --> 00:25:02,045
Speaker 1: of call it proof of life, but proof of life.

465
00:25:02,045 --> 00:25:04,605
Speaker 1: But Chrisnia and I do did visit it. Say we

466
00:25:04,645 --> 00:25:05,965
Speaker 1: did this in our own way. It was like, hey,

467
00:25:06,525 --> 00:25:07,685
Speaker 1: we would show up to things.

468
00:25:08,205 --> 00:25:12,365
Speaker 5: Did you am I in remembering that you Laura went

469
00:25:12,445 --> 00:25:14,525
Speaker 5: to a fashion show the day after.

470
00:25:14,565 --> 00:25:15,325
Speaker 1: I sure did.

471
00:25:15,445 --> 00:25:16,605
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, I went to.

472
00:25:16,645 --> 00:25:19,965
Speaker 1: A day after and I was like the coolest show

473
00:25:19,965 --> 00:25:22,805
Speaker 1: in New York. It was the Pruensis Schooler Show. And

474
00:25:22,845 --> 00:25:25,045
Speaker 1: it was very I mean I was in shock for sure.

475
00:25:25,645 --> 00:25:28,085
Speaker 1: It was very deliberate. It was like I've earned the

476
00:25:28,125 --> 00:25:30,565
Speaker 1: right to be in this room, you know, and just

477
00:25:30,605 --> 00:25:32,965
Speaker 1: because I've got a punk now I think about it,

478
00:25:33,285 --> 00:25:37,605
Speaker 1: but it was I've worked a long time and my

479
00:25:37,885 --> 00:25:40,525
Speaker 1: value has not gone away because of my job's gone.

480
00:25:40,925 --> 00:25:42,805
Speaker 1: And so I showed up with this thing and I

481
00:25:42,845 --> 00:25:44,885
Speaker 1: was like, people like, oh, wow, longer that sucks. I

482
00:25:44,885 --> 00:25:46,205
Speaker 1: was like, yeah, shit, can you believe it? I'm like

483
00:25:46,285 --> 00:25:49,245
Speaker 1: hugging people. I might have had a wine before I went, probably,

484
00:25:49,285 --> 00:25:52,005
Speaker 1: but you know, and because I was like, I had

485
00:25:52,005 --> 00:25:53,765
Speaker 1: every right to be there, and then I went and

486
00:25:53,765 --> 00:25:55,205
Speaker 1: did that and it was a very sort of public

487
00:25:55,245 --> 00:25:58,485
Speaker 1: show of like, you know what, f them, I deserve

488
00:25:58,525 --> 00:26:01,205
Speaker 1: this and I'm a functioning person. And then I kind

489
00:26:01,205 --> 00:26:03,405
Speaker 1: of pieced out for a while and you know, and

490
00:26:03,405 --> 00:26:06,245
Speaker 1: and retreated. Christina went to a big party. And again

491
00:26:06,245 --> 00:26:08,725
Speaker 1: this is our very industry based stuff. Not everyone is

492
00:26:08,725 --> 00:26:11,045
Speaker 1: going to go to fashion show or a big party.

493
00:26:11,885 --> 00:26:15,165
Speaker 2: Often an equivalent, there's an equivalent.

494
00:26:15,045 --> 00:26:18,325
Speaker 1: Guard your Starbucks place where everybody gets drinks after the

495
00:26:19,125 --> 00:26:23,005
Speaker 1: or the conference that you can go to. I was

496
00:26:23,085 --> 00:26:25,525
Speaker 1: just reading about right now the fashion Sorry. The film

497
00:26:25,565 --> 00:26:28,125
Speaker 1: critic from Vanity Fair, Richard Lawson, got laid off just

498
00:26:28,165 --> 00:26:30,965
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks ago, and he took himself and

499
00:26:31,045 --> 00:26:33,525
Speaker 1: it was in shock. But he's a brilliant writer and

500
00:26:33,565 --> 00:26:36,045
Speaker 1: he's such a good critic, and he posted on Instagram

501
00:26:36,045 --> 00:26:37,605
Speaker 1: and said, you know, I just took myself to RUnni

502
00:26:37,605 --> 00:26:40,885
Speaker 1: Film Festival on my own because I can. And I

503
00:26:40,885 --> 00:26:43,085
Speaker 1: thought that was an amazing decision. And it depends on

504
00:26:43,125 --> 00:26:46,245
Speaker 1: what your profession is and what the visible parts are

505
00:26:46,285 --> 00:26:48,165
Speaker 1: that you participate in and what your currency is. But

506
00:26:48,245 --> 00:26:48,965
Speaker 1: don't forget that.

507
00:26:48,925 --> 00:26:52,765
Speaker 5: You have all right, So this is quite brilliant, but

508
00:26:52,885 --> 00:26:55,485
Speaker 5: I think a lot of people listening to this will go,

509
00:26:57,205 --> 00:26:58,845
Speaker 5: I feel too ashamed.

510
00:27:01,365 --> 00:27:06,485
Speaker 1: Well, we've got a book for you, and so she

511
00:27:06,485 --> 00:27:08,405
Speaker 1: can take it for once because I'm always yapping about it.

512
00:27:08,765 --> 00:27:12,045
Speaker 3: No, I mean you say that the first The first

513
00:27:12,085 --> 00:27:16,405
Speaker 3: point of getting over that feeling is to own it.

514
00:27:17,005 --> 00:27:20,165
Speaker 3: You must identify what happened to you. You must put

515
00:27:20,165 --> 00:27:23,885
Speaker 3: a name on it, and then you have to tell people.

516
00:27:23,925 --> 00:27:26,725
Speaker 3: You have to talk about it. And that starts by

517
00:27:26,765 --> 00:27:31,085
Speaker 3: telling yourself, by being honest with yourself about what happened

518
00:27:31,125 --> 00:27:31,605
Speaker 3: in that room.

519
00:27:31,685 --> 00:27:37,125
Speaker 5: An interesting phenomenon hr lead. I think I don't understand

520
00:27:37,125 --> 00:27:42,685
Speaker 5: why is often encouraging people to change the narrative of

521
00:27:42,685 --> 00:27:47,045
Speaker 5: what happened. It happens in radio my profession all the time,

522
00:27:47,405 --> 00:27:51,005
Speaker 5: where they'll be like, oh, yeah, we'll just follow your narrative.

523
00:27:51,125 --> 00:27:54,645
Speaker 5: You will just say, you know, whatever you want to say,

524
00:27:55,005 --> 00:27:57,565
Speaker 5: but both of you exactly what happened to Yeah, so

525
00:27:57,725 --> 00:27:58,725
Speaker 5: you were really and.

526
00:27:59,365 --> 00:28:02,205
Speaker 4: The narrative, like the narrative is why would I ever

527
00:28:02,285 --> 00:28:03,125
Speaker 4: leave my dream job?

528
00:28:04,045 --> 00:28:07,565
Speaker 3: So I knew in that room when I was being

529
00:28:07,605 --> 00:28:10,805
Speaker 3: told that there was no way I could go down

530
00:28:11,045 --> 00:28:14,085
Speaker 3: and look my team in the eye and pretend like

531
00:28:14,125 --> 00:28:15,845
Speaker 3: I was walking out of the door on my own,

532
00:28:16,365 --> 00:28:20,645
Speaker 3: you know, volition. So that was really important to me

533
00:28:20,925 --> 00:28:25,045
Speaker 3: that the company owned it, because why should they get

534
00:28:25,085 --> 00:28:29,285
Speaker 3: to cover, you know, change the sort of what do.

535
00:28:29,205 --> 00:28:32,805
Speaker 5: You think is the reason that they that they want

536
00:28:32,845 --> 00:28:34,085
Speaker 5: to say that.

537
00:28:34,405 --> 00:28:37,725
Speaker 3: I think I think it's given you the dignity to

538
00:28:37,805 --> 00:28:42,285
Speaker 3: sort of like not have to, you know, but we

539
00:28:42,325 --> 00:28:45,645
Speaker 3: want to stop there's no shame in being fired. What

540
00:28:46,125 --> 00:28:48,645
Speaker 3: thing is it's almost like a rite of passage. Now

541
00:28:48,805 --> 00:28:52,245
Speaker 3: we know hundreds, like hundreds and hundreds thousands of people

542
00:28:52,245 --> 00:28:56,685
Speaker 3: are being you know, let go daily, and I think

543
00:28:56,925 --> 00:29:02,205
Speaker 3: this sooner as a society we stop the obfuscation of

544
00:29:02,245 --> 00:29:07,645
Speaker 3: it and we start acknowledging that in ninety nine percent

545
00:29:07,685 --> 00:29:12,205
Speaker 3: of the cases, these are you know, for people aren't

546
00:29:12,205 --> 00:29:14,805
Speaker 3: being fired for cause. They're being fired because the the

547
00:29:15,085 --> 00:29:19,605
Speaker 3: you know, things are all they're shaking things are you know,

548
00:29:19,685 --> 00:29:22,765
Speaker 3: we're in at a time for for better or for worse.

549
00:29:22,805 --> 00:29:27,245
Speaker 3: We're in a revolutionary moment of technology and you know,

550
00:29:27,365 --> 00:29:30,725
Speaker 3: all of these you know, forces are at play that

551
00:29:30,965 --> 00:29:34,325
Speaker 3: people don't have control over. So the one thing you

552
00:29:34,365 --> 00:29:36,285
Speaker 3: can control is how you walk out of that room

553
00:29:36,325 --> 00:29:36,845
Speaker 3: and how you.

554
00:29:36,765 --> 00:29:37,725
Speaker 2: Feel and the truth.

555
00:29:37,885 --> 00:29:41,205
Speaker 1: And what you also can control is is shame is

556
00:29:41,205 --> 00:29:44,365
Speaker 1: a choice. And actually people who are out and about

557
00:29:44,405 --> 00:29:46,445
Speaker 1: who talk about you for you know, half an hour

558
00:29:46,525 --> 00:29:48,285
Speaker 1: or a day, whatever they can. We have this great

559
00:29:48,365 --> 00:29:50,405
Speaker 1: banker and who we interview in the book, Sally korche

560
00:29:50,445 --> 00:29:54,325
Speaker 1: WCAU's been fired twice super publicly, and and she was like, yeah,

561
00:29:54,325 --> 00:29:55,565
Speaker 1: people might talk about you for a day, they might

562
00:29:55,605 --> 00:29:57,125
Speaker 1: text about you for a little bit, but you know what,

563
00:29:57,165 --> 00:29:59,925
Speaker 1: they don't care. If people care about themselves, nobody cares,

564
00:30:00,005 --> 00:30:02,485
Speaker 1: and and and it was it's very a jarring, a

565
00:30:02,605 --> 00:30:05,285
Speaker 1: jarring idea. But the thing is we sort of compare.

566
00:30:05,605 --> 00:30:07,525
Speaker 1: I think obviously we say all the cool girls get fired.

567
00:30:07,565 --> 00:30:09,725
Speaker 1: This applies to everybody, but particularly, you know, women in

568
00:30:09,765 --> 00:30:12,725
Speaker 1: the workforce. Sometimes, especially when you mentioned like, oh, I'm

569
00:30:12,725 --> 00:30:15,445
Speaker 1: too ashamed to talk about that. Shame is like a

570
00:30:15,445 --> 00:30:19,085
Speaker 1: big kettlebell, you know that you pick up that A

571
00:30:19,125 --> 00:30:20,565
Speaker 1: lot of women pick up and go, oh, it's going

572
00:30:20,645 --> 00:30:23,365
Speaker 1: to carry this around? No one asks them too, and

573
00:30:23,445 --> 00:30:25,925
Speaker 1: it's really heavy and it feels like shit. So what

574
00:30:25,965 --> 00:30:29,485
Speaker 1: you don't need to do that, and so what we

575
00:30:29,525 --> 00:30:32,845
Speaker 1: want to remove is this sort of self imposed shame

576
00:30:33,885 --> 00:30:35,725
Speaker 1: that so many people who lose a job have put

577
00:30:35,765 --> 00:30:38,445
Speaker 1: on themselves and revolutionize that and be like, yeah, yeah,

578
00:30:38,645 --> 00:30:42,445
Speaker 1: I got canned. And also like there's a confidence in

579
00:30:42,525 --> 00:30:45,165
Speaker 1: saying that you got fired that is really subversive. You know,

580
00:30:45,165 --> 00:30:47,045
Speaker 1: this whole concept of this book is because Christina and

581
00:30:47,085 --> 00:30:49,445
Speaker 1: I knew we're really bloody good at what we did,

582
00:30:49,485 --> 00:30:51,925
Speaker 1: and we still are, and we got fired because of

583
00:30:52,045 --> 00:30:56,405
Speaker 1: X and Y, you know, and Z reasons. And I

584
00:30:56,445 --> 00:30:59,045
Speaker 1: think that it's people reconciling the fact that, you know,

585
00:30:59,085 --> 00:31:02,885
Speaker 1: oftentimes what happens in your workplace is beyond your control,

586
00:31:03,085 --> 00:31:05,005
Speaker 1: but what you do have control of is how you

587
00:31:05,045 --> 00:31:06,965
Speaker 1: see it, how you projected, and what you choose to

588
00:31:07,005 --> 00:31:08,085
Speaker 1: do and explore after it.

589
00:31:08,245 --> 00:31:12,965
Speaker 2: You know, you said particularly women in the book.

590
00:31:13,245 --> 00:31:15,925
Speaker 5: Someone says, I should remember who said this, but it's

591
00:31:15,965 --> 00:31:19,245
Speaker 5: so interesting. Boys are taught to be brave and girls

592
00:31:19,365 --> 00:31:23,045
Speaker 5: are taught to be perfect.

593
00:31:24,645 --> 00:31:26,645
Speaker 1: It seems that that's in Sally's chapter.

594
00:31:27,805 --> 00:31:30,485
Speaker 2: It's amazing, it resonates.

595
00:31:30,325 --> 00:31:33,685
Speaker 5: And I think that that informs that feeling of shame.

596
00:31:35,125 --> 00:31:37,445
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh I failed, I failed something, and you know,

597
00:31:37,485 --> 00:31:39,285
Speaker 1: and there was something as well that we We talked

598
00:31:39,325 --> 00:31:42,685
Speaker 1: to a really brilliant HR expert called Bucki Katie who

599
00:31:42,685 --> 00:31:44,045
Speaker 1: we've known for a long time. She's in media for

600
00:31:44,045 --> 00:31:47,085
Speaker 1: a long time, and or of Quizzic call it. Why

601
00:31:47,125 --> 00:31:50,645
Speaker 1: do you think, you know women take this so hard

602
00:31:50,685 --> 00:31:52,885
Speaker 1: and why do you think this shame exists? And she said,

603
00:31:53,645 --> 00:31:57,165
Speaker 1: it's because it actually took us so much longer to

604
00:31:57,205 --> 00:31:59,645
Speaker 1: get there of it. Men, it generationally took us so

605
00:31:59,765 --> 00:32:01,965
Speaker 1: much longer. We've only had a vote for one hundred.

606
00:32:01,845 --> 00:32:02,925
Speaker 2: And we didn't get longer.

607
00:32:03,125 --> 00:32:07,005
Speaker 5: We didn't get we didn't get much time at the pinnacle,

608
00:32:07,405 --> 00:32:10,285
Speaker 5: did we before the next lot of climbers were coming

609
00:32:10,365 --> 00:32:11,805
Speaker 5: up to chop the flag down?

610
00:32:13,205 --> 00:32:13,445
Speaker 2: Yeah?

611
00:32:13,485 --> 00:32:15,045
Speaker 1: And I think that that's so if you're knocked off

612
00:32:15,045 --> 00:32:18,765
Speaker 1: that perch that you've been scuttling so for so long

613
00:32:18,805 --> 00:32:22,085
Speaker 1: and hard in the employment market to achieve, it does

614
00:32:22,205 --> 00:32:25,765
Speaker 1: hit you harder. But one of the grace notes of

615
00:32:26,645 --> 00:32:29,085
Speaker 1: what's going on now in the employment market, and a

616
00:32:29,125 --> 00:32:32,565
Speaker 1: grace note of the book, is that work itself is

617
00:32:32,605 --> 00:32:35,605
Speaker 1: no longer linear. The corner office need not be the

618
00:32:35,645 --> 00:32:37,925
Speaker 1: goal anymore. So many of the things that we were

619
00:32:37,965 --> 00:32:42,645
Speaker 1: taught to prize growing up in media or whatever, industry

620
00:32:43,525 --> 00:32:47,925
Speaker 1: have kind of broadened into this sort of individual based

621
00:32:47,925 --> 00:32:51,245
Speaker 1: currency of where work can be. You can bake cookies

622
00:32:51,245 --> 00:32:53,565
Speaker 1: and sell them on TikTok. You know, there's so many

623
00:32:53,565 --> 00:32:57,085
Speaker 1: different ways, and especially in our business media, you look

624
00:32:57,125 --> 00:33:00,245
Speaker 1: at legacy journalists who are on substate YouTube selling podcasts.

625
00:33:00,245 --> 00:33:04,085
Speaker 1: There's just all of these worlds to explore that didn't

626
00:33:04,085 --> 00:33:06,045
Speaker 1: exist before. And it is scary because a lot of

627
00:33:06,085 --> 00:33:08,125
Speaker 1: those worlds are the ones, and especially in our case

628
00:33:08,165 --> 00:33:11,045
Speaker 1: that got rid of bout jobs. You know, we lost

629
00:33:11,085 --> 00:33:15,365
Speaker 1: our jobs, our traditional jobs because of this this wave

630
00:33:16,005 --> 00:33:18,565
Speaker 1: of different ways of working. But if you actually open

631
00:33:18,605 --> 00:33:21,885
Speaker 1: your eyes and give yourself a beat, and obviously, depending

632
00:33:21,925 --> 00:33:24,765
Speaker 1: on your financial circumstance, you have a shorter or longer time,

633
00:33:24,805 --> 00:33:27,325
Speaker 1: all of that, you know is is relevant. But if

634
00:33:27,365 --> 00:33:30,885
Speaker 1: you actually kind of get up off the couch after wallowing,

635
00:33:30,925 --> 00:33:34,245
Speaker 1: which we fully encourage you do, you know that you

636
00:33:35,005 --> 00:33:38,805
Speaker 1: look around from your sand pitt and you will actually

637
00:33:38,805 --> 00:33:41,645
Speaker 1: notice there's a big old beach there if you let

638
00:33:41,725 --> 00:33:42,805
Speaker 1: yourself see it.

639
00:33:43,565 --> 00:33:46,405
Speaker 2: And at some point you have to teach yourself to swim.

640
00:33:46,485 --> 00:33:48,765
Speaker 1: You do, or just sit there with some binoculars on

641
00:33:49,125 --> 00:33:52,205
Speaker 1: you see the horizon. You know, you know, look at

642
00:33:52,205 --> 00:33:54,205
Speaker 1: the horizon you didn't you didn't see for such a

643
00:33:54,205 --> 00:33:54,645
Speaker 1: long time.

644
00:33:55,005 --> 00:33:58,925
Speaker 5: Because one of the things I imagine that that that

645
00:33:59,045 --> 00:34:03,125
Speaker 5: you must have mourned for whatever period of time was

646
00:34:04,005 --> 00:34:06,165
Speaker 5: and it's hard not to be seduced by this is

647
00:34:06,205 --> 00:34:12,245
Speaker 5: the affirmation, the external affirmation of the world. How do

648
00:34:12,285 --> 00:34:16,125
Speaker 5: you process when that is suddenly yanked away? And whether

649
00:34:16,165 --> 00:34:20,205
Speaker 5: that's your name on the door or celebrities that know you,

650
00:34:20,325 --> 00:34:24,405
Speaker 5: or the front row at at fashion wake, how do

651
00:34:24,445 --> 00:34:26,725
Speaker 5: you How long is that graving process?

652
00:34:27,285 --> 00:34:30,765
Speaker 3: I found it really cathartic to write down all the

653
00:34:30,805 --> 00:34:33,325
Speaker 3: things I was really proud of that we had achieved

654
00:34:33,405 --> 00:34:36,165
Speaker 3: during my tenure. And Laura and I've been talking a

655
00:34:36,205 --> 00:34:39,485
Speaker 3: lot about this sort of like concept of pride, and

656
00:34:39,485 --> 00:34:42,005
Speaker 3: that's another thing that a lot of people don't kind

657
00:34:42,045 --> 00:34:45,725
Speaker 3: of show up with that first, right, you know, it's

658
00:34:46,205 --> 00:34:51,485
Speaker 3: perceived as maybe over confidence, ego whatever. I found it

659
00:34:51,565 --> 00:34:55,325
Speaker 3: really cathartic in real time to sit there and write

660
00:34:55,405 --> 00:34:57,285
Speaker 3: down all of the things.

661
00:34:56,965 --> 00:34:57,685
Speaker 4: That we achieved.

662
00:34:57,725 --> 00:35:01,845
Speaker 3: No one can take those successes away, and I wanted

663
00:35:01,885 --> 00:35:07,245
Speaker 3: to remind myself how much we had, you know, achieved

664
00:35:07,245 --> 00:35:10,845
Speaker 3: in a decade. And also I wanted to have that

665
00:35:11,645 --> 00:35:14,485
Speaker 3: as a sort of you know, reminder to the team

666
00:35:14,925 --> 00:35:18,325
Speaker 3: when I was leaving, you know, all all of this was,

667
00:35:18,445 --> 00:35:22,125
Speaker 3: you know, we did this, we did this together. And

668
00:35:22,245 --> 00:35:25,845
Speaker 3: so that was something that I found helpful in terms

669
00:35:25,885 --> 00:35:29,765
Speaker 3: of like processing what was going on, because I think

670
00:35:29,765 --> 00:35:32,885
Speaker 3: it is really easy to just sort of, you know,

671
00:35:33,405 --> 00:35:37,205
Speaker 3: be bitter and be upset and you know, be angry.

672
00:35:37,925 --> 00:35:40,285
Speaker 3: And if you can identify a little bit of glimmer

673
00:35:40,325 --> 00:35:46,445
Speaker 3: of pride and things to kind of acknowledge you know

674
00:35:46,485 --> 00:35:49,685
Speaker 3: that you achieved, I think you will feel like, oh, hey, wait,

675
00:35:49,765 --> 00:35:51,445
Speaker 3: I did that. That means I can go and do

676
00:35:51,525 --> 00:35:55,005
Speaker 3: this again for someone else in a different way. And

677
00:35:55,125 --> 00:35:57,565
Speaker 3: you know, obviously you know it's going to you know,

678
00:35:58,045 --> 00:36:01,245
Speaker 3: could take on a different shape or form. But that

679
00:36:01,325 --> 00:36:04,285
Speaker 3: I think that reminder is something that no one can

680
00:36:04,285 --> 00:36:06,365
Speaker 3: take away. No one can take that list away from you.

681
00:36:06,725 --> 00:36:10,005
Speaker 1: And you're also reminded by the sective literally people showing

682
00:36:10,085 --> 00:36:11,685
Speaker 1: up for you if you've been a good person, you've

683
00:36:11,725 --> 00:36:14,445
Speaker 1: done good work, they don't disappear. They do show up

684
00:36:14,445 --> 00:36:17,245
Speaker 1: for you. And a key example is, you know a book.

685
00:36:17,565 --> 00:36:19,365
Speaker 1: We're very lucky to have Oprah Winfrey in the book,

686
00:36:19,405 --> 00:36:21,805
Speaker 1: and we had I'd worked got a couple of times

687
00:36:22,205 --> 00:36:24,645
Speaker 1: Christina had worked with her with her once and and

688
00:36:24,725 --> 00:36:27,325
Speaker 1: she my husband sort of calls it Johnny apple seed.

689
00:36:27,485 --> 00:36:29,925
Speaker 1: You know, like you're going through your career and you

690
00:36:29,925 --> 00:36:32,605
Speaker 1: don't know it necessarily, but you're kind of flinging these

691
00:36:32,645 --> 00:36:36,365
Speaker 1: seeds around of relationships and bonds and work and stuff

692
00:36:36,485 --> 00:36:39,485
Speaker 1: and sort of value you create. And then if something

693
00:36:39,525 --> 00:36:42,245
Speaker 1: like this happens, you can look around and see that

694
00:36:42,285 --> 00:36:45,165
Speaker 1: those seeds have grown. And Oprah, you know, said yes

695
00:36:45,205 --> 00:36:48,085
Speaker 1: to being in our book because she enjoyed conversations she'd

696
00:36:48,085 --> 00:36:50,325
Speaker 1: had with me for interview. She enjoyed her shoots with

697
00:36:50,405 --> 00:36:52,765
Speaker 1: you know, her shoot with WSJ, and and she liked

698
00:36:52,845 --> 00:36:56,765
Speaker 1: us and and and that's that's a reminder too, during

699
00:36:56,805 --> 00:36:59,725
Speaker 1: this sort of grieving process of what, oh, I've lost

700
00:36:59,765 --> 00:37:02,485
Speaker 1: it all. No one's going to call me I'm a loser,

701
00:37:02,525 --> 00:37:04,485
Speaker 1: I'm alone. You know who's going to bother with me?

702
00:37:05,725 --> 00:37:07,485
Speaker 1: The right ones do, and the right ones remember, and

703
00:37:07,525 --> 00:37:11,165
Speaker 1: the right ones help and and you and they remember

704
00:37:11,205 --> 00:37:14,365
Speaker 1: your value. And so that again, that's another choice you

705
00:37:14,405 --> 00:37:15,925
Speaker 1: have to make. But you have to get out there

706
00:37:15,925 --> 00:37:17,445
Speaker 1: a little bit, and you have to talk to people,

707
00:37:17,645 --> 00:37:19,765
Speaker 1: and you have to be honest, because if you're not honest,

708
00:37:19,765 --> 00:37:21,605
Speaker 1: people aren't going to know that you need, you know,

709
00:37:21,605 --> 00:37:24,645
Speaker 1: a connection or a help or some work. So that's

710
00:37:24,765 --> 00:37:29,765
Speaker 1: you know, we found that hugely atifying, you know, all

711
00:37:29,765 --> 00:37:32,245
Speaker 1: of those people that showed up for us, because because

712
00:37:32,325 --> 00:37:34,925
Speaker 1: we've done well and treated people well over the course

713
00:37:34,965 --> 00:37:36,765
Speaker 1: of our career. And that goes the same for if

714
00:37:36,805 --> 00:37:38,565
Speaker 1: you work in a doctor's office or a Starbucks or

715
00:37:38,645 --> 00:37:40,125
Speaker 1: the fashion business, the same deal.

716
00:37:40,445 --> 00:37:44,925
Speaker 5: Yes, if people like you, they like you, and people

717
00:37:44,965 --> 00:37:47,645
Speaker 5: want to help people they like. However, one of the

718
00:37:47,685 --> 00:37:50,525
Speaker 5: things that you must have lost, both of you, for

719
00:37:50,565 --> 00:37:54,045
Speaker 5: instance in the Oprah example, is how do you then

720
00:37:54,445 --> 00:37:58,645
Speaker 5: what is your mode of communication? Because previously you both

721
00:37:58,685 --> 00:38:01,085
Speaker 5: would have had it through your jobs.

722
00:38:02,325 --> 00:38:06,365
Speaker 2: How are you reaching out now? Personally? You kept your

723
00:38:06,365 --> 00:38:06,965
Speaker 2: contact leading.

724
00:38:08,045 --> 00:38:11,365
Speaker 1: We've been doing this for a while for a while, honey,

725
00:38:11,685 --> 00:38:14,245
Speaker 1: you know, so we you know, there's people that have

726
00:38:14,285 --> 00:38:15,885
Speaker 1: also been in this business for a long time, so

727
00:38:16,045 --> 00:38:18,845
Speaker 1: there's people that you've just known. And yeah, I mean

728
00:38:18,845 --> 00:38:21,685
Speaker 1: we have certainly had a platform for our ideas that

729
00:38:21,805 --> 00:38:24,365
Speaker 1: was bigger than us. You know that we you know,

730
00:38:24,365 --> 00:38:25,845
Speaker 1: we put out a magazine and have an image of

731
00:38:26,005 --> 00:38:27,325
Speaker 1: X or Y on the cover, and we'd have a

732
00:38:27,365 --> 00:38:29,685
Speaker 1: fashion shoot, we'd have advertising and all that kind of stuff,

733
00:38:29,965 --> 00:38:32,685
Speaker 1: but you know, those relationships you forged over all those

734
00:38:32,765 --> 00:38:35,165
Speaker 1: years don't really go away. So we found I think

735
00:38:35,165 --> 00:38:38,485
Speaker 1: when we both got sacked, we had a real sort

736
00:38:38,525 --> 00:38:41,445
Speaker 1: of deluge of people reaching out to us. And even

737
00:38:41,485 --> 00:38:43,805
Speaker 1: if we maybe hadn't saved their contact, you can find

738
00:38:43,845 --> 00:38:46,005
Speaker 1: people on Instagram, You've got their cell phone numbers. There's

739
00:38:46,045 --> 00:38:48,205
Speaker 1: always someone you can ask, where you can where you

740
00:38:48,245 --> 00:38:50,085
Speaker 1: can find someone that you might need to talk to.

741
00:38:50,125 --> 00:38:52,885
Speaker 1: We didn't really have an issue with knowing how to

742
00:38:52,925 --> 00:38:54,965
Speaker 1: get to people. It was like, Okay, what do we

743
00:38:55,005 --> 00:38:56,565
Speaker 1: want to ask and who do we want to be

744
00:38:56,645 --> 00:38:57,845
Speaker 1: and do we want to take a beat? And it

745
00:38:57,885 --> 00:39:00,205
Speaker 1: was different for both of us. Christina really kind of

746
00:39:00,205 --> 00:39:04,645
Speaker 1: got out there again pretty pretty quickly and fired all

747
00:39:04,645 --> 00:39:06,525
Speaker 1: of that up, and I didn't, you know, So, I

748
00:39:06,525 --> 00:39:09,525
Speaker 1: think it depends on what you wanted in your comfort level.

749
00:39:09,925 --> 00:39:12,725
Speaker 5: It's interesting because I think a lot of people would

750
00:39:12,725 --> 00:39:20,485
Speaker 5: think about the fashion world that it's shallow, that it's

751
00:39:20,725 --> 00:39:23,445
Speaker 5: very currency oriented.

752
00:39:23,485 --> 00:39:24,165
Speaker 2: Do you know what I mean?

753
00:39:24,285 --> 00:39:27,845
Speaker 5: Like that, what's your social currency? What's your status? So

754
00:39:28,405 --> 00:39:32,045
Speaker 5: what you two were doing was having had all the

755
00:39:32,085 --> 00:39:35,885
Speaker 5: external status removed, you're just like here we are, We're

756
00:39:35,885 --> 00:39:37,085
Speaker 5: the people that you've dealt with.

757
00:39:38,005 --> 00:39:39,525
Speaker 2: Will you come do this with us?

758
00:39:40,285 --> 00:39:42,325
Speaker 3: Well, you find out who your real friends are and

759
00:39:42,325 --> 00:39:44,325
Speaker 3: who your work friends are, right, I mean, I think

760
00:39:44,365 --> 00:39:47,805
Speaker 3: that's one of the things that becomes clear, and that's

761
00:39:48,405 --> 00:39:51,005
Speaker 3: you know, a process that you have to go through.

762
00:39:51,445 --> 00:39:52,965
Speaker 4: Like Laura said, we had a.

763
00:39:52,925 --> 00:39:56,725
Speaker 3: Reason to reach out to people, you know, and because

764
00:39:57,885 --> 00:40:01,285
Speaker 3: because of that, it was a great opportunity to re

765
00:40:01,405 --> 00:40:03,445
Speaker 3: engage with a lot of these contacts that we had

766
00:40:03,445 --> 00:40:04,885
Speaker 3: built and you know.

767
00:40:04,925 --> 00:40:06,085
Speaker 4: Saved over the years.

768
00:40:06,325 --> 00:40:11,485
Speaker 3: I think with regards to the superficiality of the fashion industry,

769
00:40:13,165 --> 00:40:15,285
Speaker 3: you know, it feels a little like it's a little

770
00:40:15,285 --> 00:40:17,925
Speaker 3: bit easy to say to say that, you know, Laura

771
00:40:17,925 --> 00:40:20,765
Speaker 3: and I are I think proof of the opposite of

772
00:40:21,005 --> 00:40:23,725
Speaker 3: you know, you can make real friends and real connections

773
00:40:23,885 --> 00:40:26,885
Speaker 3: and you know, show up for people in ways that

774
00:40:27,485 --> 00:40:30,645
Speaker 3: you know you can do in many other industries as well.

775
00:40:30,965 --> 00:40:32,165
Speaker 2: And they showed up for you.

776
00:40:32,925 --> 00:40:34,565
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you don't have to buy in, you know,

777
00:40:34,605 --> 00:40:37,485
Speaker 1: you have to buy into like deliving your whole life

778
00:40:37,685 --> 00:40:40,005
Speaker 1: based on what seat you get at a fashion show,

779
00:40:40,045 --> 00:40:42,485
Speaker 1: Like that's that's not a full and balanced life. You know,

780
00:40:42,565 --> 00:40:44,325
Speaker 1: there are we see them all the time. We see

781
00:40:44,325 --> 00:40:46,325
Speaker 1: people that are brought into that and that becomes their

782
00:40:46,325 --> 00:40:48,125
Speaker 1: only currency. And if you do want to be like,

783
00:40:48,445 --> 00:40:50,885
Speaker 1: I'm relevant because I'm wearing a saline jacket that I

784
00:40:50,925 --> 00:40:53,445
Speaker 1: spent my rent on, then that's your choice, you know,

785
00:40:53,605 --> 00:40:56,605
Speaker 1: and I wouldn't recommend it. And so there's always there's

786
00:40:56,605 --> 00:41:00,445
Speaker 1: always people that fall for the currency of all their industries.

787
00:41:00,485 --> 00:41:03,765
Speaker 1: But yes, fashions is the most obvious. Fashions is the

788
00:41:03,805 --> 00:41:06,325
Speaker 1: tip of the spirit. Is where you're judged on where

789
00:41:06,365 --> 00:41:10,085
Speaker 1: you sit, you know, and you know if you if

790
00:41:10,085 --> 00:41:13,125
Speaker 1: you see around that and again if you have a

791
00:41:13,165 --> 00:41:16,365
Speaker 1: good record of work behind you. But you also go

792
00:41:17,005 --> 00:41:18,925
Speaker 1: we spend our time now we don't have to go

793
00:41:18,925 --> 00:41:21,205
Speaker 1: to every single fashion show. We go to the fashion

794
00:41:21,205 --> 00:41:23,485
Speaker 1: shows or the events or whatever. Where we're valued, where

795
00:41:23,485 --> 00:41:26,605
Speaker 1: our friends are, where we're taken care of, and that

796
00:41:26,725 --> 00:41:29,925
Speaker 1: is it should be exactly the same in any industry.

797
00:41:30,045 --> 00:41:32,565
Speaker 1: You know, if you're if you're trying to remain relevant

798
00:41:32,885 --> 00:41:35,525
Speaker 1: in business, whatever you work in, but you're going to

799
00:41:36,245 --> 00:41:39,645
Speaker 1: somewhere that makes you feel funny in the tummy, then don't.

800
00:41:39,405 --> 00:41:42,765
Speaker 2: Go, or go with someone or yeah, go with.

801
00:41:42,725 --> 00:41:45,525
Speaker 1: Some backup, or just know or just kind of edit, edit,

802
00:41:46,165 --> 00:41:47,805
Speaker 1: how much you're out there and how much you can

803
00:41:47,805 --> 00:41:50,125
Speaker 1: take and listen to yourself and now and and I

804
00:41:50,165 --> 00:41:52,845
Speaker 1: understand your comfort level. And sometimes you should force yourself

805
00:41:52,845 --> 00:41:54,485
Speaker 1: out there a little bit because you do need to

806
00:41:54,885 --> 00:41:57,525
Speaker 1: show that. But other times I feel crappy and I

807
00:41:57,565 --> 00:41:58,965
Speaker 1: don't want to I don't want to feel worse. And

808
00:41:59,005 --> 00:41:59,685
Speaker 1: that's okay too.

809
00:42:00,285 --> 00:42:02,965
Speaker 5: You know you were talking earlier about allowing yourself a

810
00:42:02,965 --> 00:42:07,005
Speaker 5: little bit of time to wallow. I was struck in

811
00:42:07,085 --> 00:42:12,005
Speaker 5: the book by how little time time you set aside

812
00:42:12,005 --> 00:42:15,205
Speaker 5: for that, Whereas I would be like, I need at

813
00:42:15,285 --> 00:42:17,325
Speaker 5: least three months of shitting in the bed.

814
00:42:20,005 --> 00:42:22,005
Speaker 1: You know. The thing is, I don't think you would

815
00:42:22,445 --> 00:42:24,365
Speaker 1: we've just met, but I know I can feel it already.

816
00:42:24,405 --> 00:42:28,485
Speaker 1: You'd be like, I feel bad. I feel bad, shiny shiny,

817
00:42:28,605 --> 00:42:31,245
Speaker 1: you know. And I think that especially, And I think

818
00:42:32,325 --> 00:42:34,725
Speaker 1: we're lucky in the media to a degree because we

819
00:42:34,765 --> 00:42:37,925
Speaker 1: have infl curiosity, you know. And I think that to

820
00:42:38,045 --> 00:42:40,925
Speaker 1: foster that in any any world, you're in to be

821
00:42:41,005 --> 00:42:43,365
Speaker 1: a bit like, oh I lost this, but look over there,

822
00:42:44,725 --> 00:42:46,765
Speaker 1: look at that thing that's glimmering in the distance, and

823
00:42:46,885 --> 00:42:49,725
Speaker 1: you just have to kind of remind yourself to look

824
00:42:49,765 --> 00:42:53,405
Speaker 1: at it and then it's pretty dazzling. What can do that?

825
00:42:53,445 --> 00:42:56,045
Speaker 1: But yeah, man, sit there and cry and drink or

826
00:42:56,045 --> 00:42:58,405
Speaker 1: whatever you're into for a little bit. You fully recommend that.

827
00:42:58,445 --> 00:42:59,245
Speaker 1: We fully did that.

828
00:43:02,045 --> 00:43:04,725
Speaker 5: The rest of my conversation with Laura Brown and Christina

829
00:43:04,765 --> 00:43:11,205
Speaker 5: O'Neil after this break back in a tick. Christina, I

830
00:43:11,205 --> 00:43:14,565
Speaker 5: think you said that you went through in a very

831
00:43:14,605 --> 00:43:18,525
Speaker 5: methodical manner and prioritize the things that you were going

832
00:43:18,565 --> 00:43:21,725
Speaker 5: to need financially, things that you're going to have to

833
00:43:21,765 --> 00:43:23,845
Speaker 5: pay for both of your blondes.

834
00:43:24,045 --> 00:43:26,445
Speaker 2: Blonde blonde is expensive.

835
00:43:26,045 --> 00:43:29,965
Speaker 1: Natural, we don't pay.

836
00:43:30,005 --> 00:43:32,925
Speaker 5: It's just like this, but you know what I mean.

837
00:43:33,045 --> 00:43:36,165
Speaker 5: Like so the reality in the book, which is a

838
00:43:36,325 --> 00:43:39,925
Speaker 5: really interesting to night jacket, No, that's right.

839
00:43:40,165 --> 00:43:42,805
Speaker 4: Lots of other things did, but not the highlights.

840
00:43:43,325 --> 00:43:43,405
Speaker 1: No.

841
00:43:43,565 --> 00:43:45,365
Speaker 3: I mean I had to sit down and you know,

842
00:43:45,765 --> 00:43:48,765
Speaker 3: do that sort of boring you know, write down all

843
00:43:48,805 --> 00:43:51,685
Speaker 3: your expenses, print out all your credit card bills, really

844
00:43:51,685 --> 00:43:54,645
Speaker 3: go through everything with a fine tooth comb and and

845
00:43:54,685 --> 00:43:59,165
Speaker 3: make you know, tough decisions. So I absolutely went through

846
00:43:59,285 --> 00:44:05,125
Speaker 3: that process. But at the same time, it wasn't just

847
00:44:05,165 --> 00:44:08,365
Speaker 3: the financial motivation that got me back into the conversations

848
00:44:08,405 --> 00:44:09,165
Speaker 3: about what could come.

849
00:44:09,685 --> 00:44:11,805
Speaker 4: You know, I, like Laura said.

850
00:44:11,605 --> 00:44:16,405
Speaker 3: The sort of curiosity, the opportunities, you know, because a

851
00:44:16,405 --> 00:44:18,365
Speaker 3: lot of people reached out. I was taking a lot

852
00:44:18,365 --> 00:44:20,165
Speaker 3: of meetings, and I was having a lot of interesting

853
00:44:20,205 --> 00:44:23,045
Speaker 3: conversations and kind of, you know, one of those like

854
00:44:23,125 --> 00:44:25,685
Speaker 3: brilliant whiteboards where you're kind of like, Okay, I could

855
00:44:25,685 --> 00:44:27,605
Speaker 3: go over here and do this, or I could do this,

856
00:44:27,765 --> 00:44:31,405
Speaker 3: or like you know, you sort of start you have time.

857
00:44:31,605 --> 00:44:32,125
Speaker 2: You have time.

858
00:44:32,245 --> 00:44:35,005
Speaker 3: For the first time in my entire adult life, I

859
00:44:35,045 --> 00:44:37,565
Speaker 3: had time to sort of step back and say, am.

860
00:44:37,525 --> 00:44:39,285
Speaker 4: I really doing what I love?

861
00:44:40,045 --> 00:44:44,885
Speaker 3: And am I going to take a job that doesn't

862
00:44:45,005 --> 00:44:47,805
Speaker 3: let me have the time to do these other things

863
00:44:47,845 --> 00:44:50,885
Speaker 3: that I love? And I think that was the sort

864
00:44:50,885 --> 00:44:53,165
Speaker 3: of math. You know, someone in the book you Know

865
00:44:53,245 --> 00:44:55,405
Speaker 3: talks about sort of really sitting down and kind of

866
00:44:55,965 --> 00:45:02,805
Speaker 3: compiling your financial you know, responsibilities, but also your emotional responsibilities.

867
00:45:02,845 --> 00:45:05,405
Speaker 3: And you know, we call it math for your dreams.

868
00:45:05,445 --> 00:45:08,205
Speaker 3: But when you add the two together, if you are

869
00:45:08,405 --> 00:45:13,005
Speaker 3: able to kind of consider what comes next with with

870
00:45:13,565 --> 00:45:18,005
Speaker 3: those things being your guiding lights, it is a lot

871
00:45:18,045 --> 00:45:20,845
Speaker 3: easier to go into conversations and and you know, to

872
00:45:20,925 --> 00:45:24,125
Speaker 3: sort of be honest about what you need from an

873
00:45:24,165 --> 00:45:26,965
Speaker 3: agreement or what you need from a work you know,

874
00:45:27,565 --> 00:45:29,165
Speaker 3: contract or a work opportunity.

875
00:45:29,525 --> 00:45:31,645
Speaker 1: Yeah, listen to you're in a child. Sometimes what makes

876
00:45:31,685 --> 00:45:33,605
Speaker 1: me feel good makes me feel lucky, you know it

877
00:45:33,725 --> 00:45:38,125
Speaker 1: sometimes can be can be that simple, and again you don't.

878
00:45:38,285 --> 00:45:41,645
Speaker 1: Everyone has varying amounts of time to spend to do that.

879
00:45:41,805 --> 00:45:46,525
Speaker 1: But you everyone has some time and that is something

880
00:45:46,525 --> 00:45:49,525
Speaker 1: that is given to you, whether or not you when

881
00:45:49,565 --> 00:45:50,085
Speaker 1: you get fired.

882
00:45:50,285 --> 00:45:53,125
Speaker 5: Yes, well this is easy when you when you've fired,

883
00:45:53,245 --> 00:45:56,885
Speaker 5: you suddenly have a lot of time. But it's how

884
00:45:57,005 --> 00:46:01,485
Speaker 5: you choose to prioritize that time. And what it seems

885
00:46:01,605 --> 00:46:04,325
Speaker 5: like is there's a lot of admin and there's a

886
00:46:04,365 --> 00:46:08,325
Speaker 5: lot of really having to dig date to teach yourself

887
00:46:08,445 --> 00:46:12,165
Speaker 5: things that previously maybe when you're part of a team

888
00:46:12,245 --> 00:46:16,725
Speaker 5: that's someone else's domain. What was the hardest, Because Laura,

889
00:46:16,765 --> 00:46:19,445
Speaker 5: I cannot go through this whole conversation with you making

890
00:46:20,085 --> 00:46:22,565
Speaker 5: everything sounds so fucking easy.

891
00:46:23,205 --> 00:46:26,365
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what's hard, and you're you guys are

892
00:46:26,365 --> 00:46:27,885
Speaker 1: blessed in Australia. You might have to deal with this

893
00:46:27,925 --> 00:46:28,405
Speaker 1: is healthcare?

894
00:46:28,405 --> 00:46:30,525
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, the health care is a whole chapter in the.

895
00:46:30,485 --> 00:46:33,965
Speaker 1: Book Absolute bitch, and it is not given to you

896
00:46:34,685 --> 00:46:38,045
Speaker 1: and for you to you know, to save yourself from

897
00:46:38,205 --> 00:46:40,165
Speaker 1: paying one hundred thousand dollars if you get hit by

898
00:46:40,165 --> 00:46:42,605
Speaker 1: a car, you have to spend two thousand dollars out

899
00:46:42,605 --> 00:46:46,485
Speaker 1: of your own pocket, you know, like paying for yourself

900
00:46:46,525 --> 00:46:52,045
Speaker 1: and your partner and navigating. That made us feel so vulnerable.

901
00:46:52,045 --> 00:46:55,405
Speaker 1: And again, yes we are all by all degrees successful.

902
00:46:55,565 --> 00:46:59,565
Speaker 1: You know, we were pretty well paid, not yet giant

903
00:46:59,765 --> 00:47:05,685
Speaker 1: paid ladies. But the vulnerability we felt by not knowing

904
00:47:05,925 --> 00:47:08,645
Speaker 1: how long our health insurance was going to last, what

905
00:47:08,685 --> 00:47:10,085
Speaker 1: we were going to have to pay for it. There's

906
00:47:10,165 --> 00:47:13,125
Speaker 1: there's something here where if you have health insurance corporately

907
00:47:13,165 --> 00:47:15,485
Speaker 1: and you can extend your same plan for on. It's

908
00:47:15,525 --> 00:47:18,085
Speaker 1: called Cobra. And we say it's not a snake, but

909
00:47:18,125 --> 00:47:19,485
Speaker 1: it kind of fits.

910
00:47:19,685 --> 00:47:19,925
Speaker 2: You know.

911
00:47:20,725 --> 00:47:22,645
Speaker 1: We were waiting, I remember my husband, I were waiting

912
00:47:22,685 --> 00:47:28,125
Speaker 1: on on getting like that. Cobra wouldn't start until we

913
00:47:28,205 --> 00:47:31,205
Speaker 1: got a card in the mail, like it was nineteen

914
00:47:31,285 --> 00:47:34,685
Speaker 1: fifty more so for a week, don't have any health insurance,

915
00:47:35,405 --> 00:47:38,005
Speaker 1: you know, and I can't tell you like in Australia,

916
00:47:38,125 --> 00:47:40,645
Speaker 1: just go. We're on Medicare and we've spent twenty bucks.

917
00:47:41,045 --> 00:47:42,965
Speaker 2: That's hard to conceive of here.

918
00:47:43,285 --> 00:47:45,925
Speaker 1: It's your biggest fear here. It is almost bigger than

919
00:47:45,965 --> 00:47:48,805
Speaker 1: money itself, because it's like, if something happens to me,

920
00:47:49,925 --> 00:47:52,045
Speaker 1: who's going to take care of me? And how am

921
00:47:52,085 --> 00:47:54,165
Speaker 1: I going to pay for it? So that is that

922
00:47:54,765 --> 00:47:57,365
Speaker 1: is that this chapter two money Then it's healthcare. So

923
00:47:57,725 --> 00:48:01,445
Speaker 1: you have to learn so quickly all of these these

924
00:48:01,445 --> 00:48:03,525
Speaker 1: things that are so foreign to you. How are you

925
00:48:03,565 --> 00:48:04,725
Speaker 1: going to pay your bills? How are you going to

926
00:48:04,725 --> 00:48:07,045
Speaker 1: get yourself around? Like how long your money's going to last?

927
00:48:07,125 --> 00:48:09,565
Speaker 1: Like you know, we're both you know, I'm a bread

928
00:48:09,565 --> 00:48:11,565
Speaker 1: women are in my place, you know, I take care

929
00:48:11,565 --> 00:48:13,885
Speaker 1: of my mom in Australia as well, Like we all

930
00:48:13,925 --> 00:48:18,165
Speaker 1: have these things we had to look at really hard,

931
00:48:18,685 --> 00:48:21,925
Speaker 1: and but there is you know what's so crazy about

932
00:48:21,965 --> 00:48:26,205
Speaker 1: And it comes back to pride when you learn to

933
00:48:26,245 --> 00:48:28,405
Speaker 1: get your head and your arms around that and learn

934
00:48:28,445 --> 00:48:32,325
Speaker 1: how to function in some ways that you'd taken for granted.

935
00:48:32,525 --> 00:48:34,685
Speaker 1: It's like, no, I can do I can bloody do this,

936
00:48:34,805 --> 00:48:35,965
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? I can be on my

937
00:48:35,965 --> 00:48:38,605
Speaker 1: own for a while. I can, Like yeah, maybe I can't.

938
00:48:38,605 --> 00:48:40,325
Speaker 1: You know, I shouldn't be paying for all these Ubers

939
00:48:40,325 --> 00:48:42,765
Speaker 1: this month the New York some ways absolutely fine, you know,

940
00:48:42,805 --> 00:48:46,325
Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff, and you break a habit,

941
00:48:46,405 --> 00:48:50,365
Speaker 1: but you learn so much more. And I think in

942
00:48:50,405 --> 00:48:53,885
Speaker 1: the difficulty of that instead of climbing those mountains of

943
00:48:53,885 --> 00:48:59,125
Speaker 1: re establishing yourself financially, reputationally, professionally, it's really hard. And

944
00:48:59,165 --> 00:49:00,805
Speaker 1: we are coming at this from you know, two and

945
00:49:00,805 --> 00:49:04,205
Speaker 1: a half years later, and we want to give a

946
00:49:04,285 --> 00:49:06,485
Speaker 1: shortcut because we had to do all of that. We

947
00:49:06,565 --> 00:49:08,645
Speaker 1: had to do all that slog We.

948
00:49:08,445 --> 00:49:08,885
Speaker 4: Did the work.

949
00:49:09,125 --> 00:49:09,885
Speaker 2: You don't have to.

950
00:49:10,925 --> 00:49:14,085
Speaker 3: You know, it was dark and it's depressing, and it's

951
00:49:15,845 --> 00:49:22,845
Speaker 3: it's murky almost like purposefully. So the COPT situation is complicated.

952
00:49:23,045 --> 00:49:25,925
Speaker 3: It's state by state. You know, there is not a

953
00:49:26,085 --> 00:49:30,245
Speaker 3: universal sort of like shortcut here. And I think that

954
00:49:31,445 --> 00:49:34,925
Speaker 3: you know, this book sort of serves two purposes, right,

955
00:49:35,085 --> 00:49:37,845
Speaker 3: It's the fifty percent that's the service, like let us

956
00:49:38,245 --> 00:49:40,365
Speaker 3: stop you from having to google, you know, do fifty

957
00:49:40,365 --> 00:49:42,125
Speaker 3: different Google searches, like here's.

958
00:49:41,925 --> 00:49:42,645
Speaker 4: Everything in the book.

959
00:49:43,325 --> 00:49:46,605
Speaker 3: And then it's this other fifty percent of you know,

960
00:49:47,085 --> 00:49:48,685
Speaker 3: the women's stories, the women.

961
00:49:48,485 --> 00:49:50,485
Speaker 4: That we speak to in the book and which are.

962
00:49:50,525 --> 00:49:54,565
Speaker 2: Incredible part of it too. Really just a.

963
00:49:54,125 --> 00:49:58,885
Speaker 5: Broad array of women of various ages and who have

964
00:49:59,685 --> 00:50:05,085
Speaker 5: various levels of recognizable success Lace Cut.

965
00:50:05,485 --> 00:50:07,245
Speaker 4: They were all on the sofa, wants to.

966
00:50:09,605 --> 00:50:14,085
Speaker 1: Curring, and they all felt vulnerable. Patilisa Cooter, Jimmy Lee, Curtis,

967
00:50:14,085 --> 00:50:18,925
Speaker 1: Toronta Burke, you know, all of these people, no matter

968
00:50:19,405 --> 00:50:23,645
Speaker 1: what level of success you have, and of course breaking news,

969
00:50:23,645 --> 00:50:25,405
Speaker 1: it's easy to have more money than less. We all

970
00:50:25,445 --> 00:50:29,045
Speaker 1: know that. But the feeling when you lose your job

971
00:50:29,165 --> 00:50:31,765
Speaker 1: is the same, and you feel like shit, and that

972
00:50:31,845 --> 00:50:35,205
Speaker 1: does not you know that that unifies actually, and that's

973
00:50:35,205 --> 00:50:37,205
Speaker 1: what's given us this community. And it was really important

974
00:50:37,245 --> 00:50:40,485
Speaker 1: for us to to speak to women who would you

975
00:50:40,805 --> 00:50:44,405
Speaker 1: would think her goals, you know, who are the absolute

976
00:50:44,605 --> 00:50:46,605
Speaker 1: zenous of all this because because what do you mean

977
00:50:46,725 --> 00:50:48,725
Speaker 1: is something bad happened to Opra? She's on Maui with

978
00:50:48,765 --> 00:50:51,805
Speaker 1: a mask and ful of vegetables. You know. But when

979
00:50:51,845 --> 00:50:54,205
Speaker 1: she was twenty two years old, you know, when she

980
00:50:54,245 --> 00:50:54,925
Speaker 1: was fired.

981
00:50:54,685 --> 00:50:59,925
Speaker 3: For her recall of that day, she brought back the

982
00:51:00,685 --> 00:51:04,725
Speaker 3: detail and the level of specificity of her recalling the

983
00:51:04,805 --> 00:51:08,925
Speaker 3: details of her firing were so vivid, and it was

984
00:51:08,965 --> 00:51:12,205
Speaker 3: such a reminder that it doesn't matter where you end

985
00:51:12,285 --> 00:51:16,245
Speaker 3: up in life, that it is a traumatic event for everyone.

986
00:51:16,325 --> 00:51:18,725
Speaker 4: It happens to even Oprah.

987
00:51:19,005 --> 00:51:22,365
Speaker 1: And I'm talking about it again, you know, and she

988
00:51:22,405 --> 00:51:23,925
Speaker 1: said she's hardly talked about it.

989
00:51:24,165 --> 00:51:26,525
Speaker 5: She's really hardly talked about it because it's like she's

990
00:51:26,605 --> 00:51:28,045
Speaker 5: not poked that bruise.

991
00:51:27,725 --> 00:51:28,525
Speaker 4: She bottled it.

992
00:51:28,925 --> 00:51:29,285
Speaker 1: Yeah.

993
00:51:29,525 --> 00:51:34,845
Speaker 5: Yeah, Christina, what was your lowest ebe?

994
00:51:36,045 --> 00:51:39,565
Speaker 3: You know, telling my daughter who was old enough to know,

995
00:51:41,125 --> 00:51:44,925
Speaker 3: you know, she there was no sugarcoating it with her,

996
00:51:45,685 --> 00:51:49,165
Speaker 3: and she couldn't understand, you know, she was she was

997
00:51:49,325 --> 00:51:53,045
Speaker 3: sixteen fifteen at the time. She didn't understand, you know,

998
00:51:53,485 --> 00:51:56,805
Speaker 3: she's you know, she was still young enough. My son

999
00:51:56,885 --> 00:51:59,565
Speaker 3: is much younger, and you know, kind of got it,

1000
00:51:59,645 --> 00:52:02,485
Speaker 3: kind of didn't. She couldn't equate the fact that I

1001
00:52:02,565 --> 00:52:04,405
Speaker 3: had worked hard, I had done a good job, and

1002
00:52:04,445 --> 00:52:08,485
Speaker 3: I was successful. She didn't understand why they didn't, you know,

1003
00:52:08,565 --> 00:52:11,685
Speaker 3: want me anymore. And having to kind of explain it

1004
00:52:11,765 --> 00:52:16,045
Speaker 3: in like almost clinical terms, you know that this was

1005
00:52:16,085 --> 00:52:20,565
Speaker 3: not personal. She couldn't separate that. So having to explain

1006
00:52:20,645 --> 00:52:23,165
Speaker 3: what happened to you to your kids is tough. That

1007
00:52:23,285 --> 00:52:25,165
Speaker 3: was a hard you know, that was a hard conversation.

1008
00:52:25,885 --> 00:52:28,685
Speaker 3: So I would say that was probably a moment when

1009
00:52:29,525 --> 00:52:31,885
Speaker 3: you know you you you want a script, you know,

1010
00:52:31,965 --> 00:52:35,685
Speaker 3: you sort of want the narrative, you know, kind of

1011
00:52:35,725 --> 00:52:36,525
Speaker 3: laid out for you.

1012
00:52:36,965 --> 00:52:38,485
Speaker 4: I don't know, Laura, what was yours?

1013
00:52:38,765 --> 00:52:42,245
Speaker 1: I think I think just understanding that all the responsibility

1014
00:52:42,365 --> 00:52:46,525
Speaker 1: was entirely on me. I had to carry everything financially.

1015
00:52:46,565 --> 00:52:48,845
Speaker 1: I was now there was no given, there was nothing

1016
00:52:49,125 --> 00:52:52,365
Speaker 1: landing in my bank account every two weeks. It was all,

1017
00:52:52,525 --> 00:52:54,165
Speaker 1: you know, LB had to work it out. I am

1018
00:52:54,205 --> 00:52:56,285
Speaker 1: the breadwinner of my house. I do, you know, have

1019
00:52:56,325 --> 00:52:59,525
Speaker 1: a lot of responsibility in Australia and and and all

1020
00:52:59,525 --> 00:53:02,845
Speaker 1: the healthcare and is just was like, okay, no one's

1021
00:53:03,925 --> 00:53:07,245
Speaker 1: gonna just show up. I mean they showed up, but like,

1022
00:53:07,485 --> 00:53:09,765
Speaker 1: all of this is on me. I'm responsible for all

1023
00:53:09,805 --> 00:53:13,645
Speaker 1: of this expenditure in New York City and all of

1024
00:53:13,845 --> 00:53:17,325
Speaker 1: all of this stuff in two different countries with various

1025
00:53:17,325 --> 00:53:20,565
Speaker 1: family members and everything else, and be okay and there's

1026
00:53:20,685 --> 00:53:22,925
Speaker 1: no and especially the healthcare because that was that's so

1027
00:53:23,085 --> 00:53:27,245
Speaker 1: jarring and you resent it so much. Just that was

1028
00:53:27,325 --> 00:53:30,605
Speaker 1: really just like oh, kind of bad, but fuck all right,

1029
00:53:30,685 --> 00:53:33,845
Speaker 1: this is this is all a man God bless have enough.

1030
00:53:33,885 --> 00:53:36,205
Speaker 1: You know, we have ability and we know that, but

1031
00:53:36,245 --> 00:53:38,685
Speaker 1: at the time at the time when there's a bill

1032
00:53:38,725 --> 00:53:40,765
Speaker 1: from here and you don't have your healthcare card and

1033
00:53:40,805 --> 00:53:43,245
Speaker 1: you're not sure where the next thing's coming from. It's

1034
00:53:43,325 --> 00:53:46,525
Speaker 1: it can get dark. But you you, that's why you

1035
00:53:46,605 --> 00:53:48,805
Speaker 1: have to sort of be open and communicate and get

1036
00:53:48,845 --> 00:53:52,645
Speaker 1: reminded by people you know that it's going to be fine.

1037
00:53:52,725 --> 00:53:55,965
Speaker 1: And that's that's what saves you, is this kind of

1038
00:53:55,965 --> 00:53:58,045
Speaker 1: sticking your hand up or going for the meeting and

1039
00:53:58,085 --> 00:54:02,045
Speaker 1: everything else so you don't get too lost in that moment.

1040
00:54:02,165 --> 00:54:04,965
Speaker 5: So you have to find the humanity and the humanity

1041
00:54:05,125 --> 00:54:08,845
Speaker 5: in your life, in the relationship you've created, and you've

1042
00:54:08,965 --> 00:54:11,565
Speaker 5: nurtured it, even I sometimes unwishingly.

1043
00:54:12,165 --> 00:54:14,325
Speaker 1: And is it often there in places where you didn't

1044
00:54:14,365 --> 00:54:18,725
Speaker 1: think it would be, like in fashion, like in our industry,

1045
00:54:18,845 --> 00:54:21,565
Speaker 1: you know, in our industry, which is often seen as

1046
00:54:21,565 --> 00:54:26,245
Speaker 1: being less than human, you know. And again because in

1047
00:54:26,285 --> 00:54:29,285
Speaker 1: any business, the sort of old fashioned values do come

1048
00:54:29,325 --> 00:54:31,205
Speaker 1: to play. You're a good person and you worked hard,

1049
00:54:31,205 --> 00:54:33,925
Speaker 1: and it's a very American thing, you know, And this

1050
00:54:34,045 --> 00:54:36,085
Speaker 1: is what I really do. You know, this country is

1051
00:54:36,085 --> 00:54:38,965
Speaker 1: really in it right now. But what I really appreciate

1052
00:54:39,005 --> 00:54:40,805
Speaker 1: about this country is if you show up and you

1053
00:54:40,885 --> 00:54:44,005
Speaker 1: work hard, you are rewarded. And you know, I do

1054
00:54:44,085 --> 00:54:46,205
Speaker 1: say to friends sometimes now and I'm the Aussie girl.

1055
00:54:46,245 --> 00:54:48,205
Speaker 1: We're going like, oh, I don't know about this, or

1056
00:54:48,405 --> 00:54:50,365
Speaker 1: well I shouldn't say that I was proud of when

1057
00:54:50,405 --> 00:54:52,925
Speaker 1: when I sort of go, this is America, this is

1058
00:54:52,965 --> 00:54:56,605
Speaker 1: America Australian so we're like, you know what, bullshit, you

1059
00:54:56,605 --> 00:54:59,205
Speaker 1: aren't that, honey, you did that and I learned that.

1060
00:54:59,405 --> 00:55:01,765
Speaker 1: I learned that here, you know, over the years, and

1061
00:55:01,845 --> 00:55:05,045
Speaker 1: it is and it is something that I would recommend

1062
00:55:05,125 --> 00:55:07,245
Speaker 1: to everyone. Australia is a bit like, oh I did this,

1063
00:55:07,285 --> 00:55:08,925
Speaker 1: but i'd want to I'm going to be self deprecating

1064
00:55:08,925 --> 00:55:10,565
Speaker 1: because I don't want to get knocked off at the knees.

1065
00:55:10,645 --> 00:55:13,925
Speaker 1: And australly is odd because we sort of we you know,

1066
00:55:14,165 --> 00:55:16,525
Speaker 1: we celebrate, we don't want people to get above their station,

1067
00:55:16,565 --> 00:55:19,805
Speaker 1: but we love shiny international success as well, and so

1068
00:55:19,805 --> 00:55:23,725
Speaker 1: we're sort of these two levels all the time out thread.

1069
00:55:24,045 --> 00:55:27,765
Speaker 5: And there's a phenomenon, there's a phenomenon that in Australia

1070
00:55:28,365 --> 00:55:33,725
Speaker 5: will respect someone more who's gone overseas and made it

1071
00:55:33,925 --> 00:55:38,285
Speaker 5: rather than someone who's kind of tried to out. Yeah,

1072
00:55:38,365 --> 00:55:41,885
Speaker 5: sometimes people unrecognized here come back from Australia and the

1073
00:55:41,925 --> 00:55:45,005
Speaker 5: door come from America and the doors open to them.

1074
00:55:45,525 --> 00:55:48,605
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're a funny bunch of Christina's looking. She hasn't

1075
00:55:48,645 --> 00:55:50,405
Speaker 1: been down yet. We're going to come down, I think

1076
00:55:50,405 --> 00:55:51,045
Speaker 1: in January.

1077
00:55:51,125 --> 00:55:56,365
Speaker 2: So how have you not? It's far, it's far.

1078
00:55:56,565 --> 00:55:59,445
Speaker 5: You've got plenty of time, girl, although now you're working again.

1079
00:56:00,245 --> 00:56:00,725
Speaker 2: Never stop.

1080
00:56:01,925 --> 00:56:04,325
Speaker 1: I'm taking it to see the kangaroos. I'm doing it all.

1081
00:56:04,565 --> 00:56:06,205
Speaker 4: Got to get to the kangaroos sanctuary.

1082
00:56:06,605 --> 00:56:09,645
Speaker 5: Because both of you are in relationships and so, Laura,

1083
00:56:09,765 --> 00:56:12,605
Speaker 5: you were just a couple of months off getting married

1084
00:56:13,885 --> 00:56:18,245
Speaker 5: and you had kids and a husband. Christina, I'm very

1085
00:56:18,365 --> 00:56:23,845
Speaker 5: curious about how much the men in your life felt

1086
00:56:24,245 --> 00:56:26,565
Speaker 5: when you lost your jobs.

1087
00:56:27,885 --> 00:56:29,205
Speaker 2: Did they kind of like it?

1088
00:56:31,805 --> 00:56:34,485
Speaker 3: We don't talk about this much in the book, but

1089
00:56:34,565 --> 00:56:38,685
Speaker 3: my partner was the creative director of the magazine that

1090
00:56:38,965 --> 00:56:42,405
Speaker 3: I worked for. Oh, so when I lost my job,

1091
00:56:42,445 --> 00:56:49,645
Speaker 3: he lost his job as well. Oh. Granted the magazine

1092
00:56:49,685 --> 00:56:52,125
Speaker 3: was one of his many clients. Right, he has a

1093
00:56:52,125 --> 00:56:56,845
Speaker 3: creative agency, and he was a creative director, as you know,

1094
00:56:56,885 --> 00:57:00,605
Speaker 3: one of many brands that he worked on in his portfolio,

1095
00:57:02,485 --> 00:57:06,605
Speaker 3: and so you know, he was also out you know,

1096
00:57:06,845 --> 00:57:07,605
Speaker 3: alongside me.

1097
00:57:08,445 --> 00:57:12,485
Speaker 4: So I wouldn't say he was happy about that time.

1098
00:57:14,205 --> 00:57:18,525
Speaker 3: But it you know, obviously it was different. He wasn't

1099
00:57:18,925 --> 00:57:24,245
Speaker 3: the boss of the magazine, but you know it impacted

1100
00:57:24,365 --> 00:57:31,005
Speaker 3: his you know life as well, professionally, not just personally.

1101
00:57:32,045 --> 00:57:34,365
Speaker 3: I think what we both have gained from it, right,

1102
00:57:34,565 --> 00:57:37,845
Speaker 3: is this opportunity to sort of step back and say,

1103
00:57:37,965 --> 00:57:42,685
Speaker 3: wait a second. We were nose to the grindstone all

1104
00:57:42,725 --> 00:57:46,685
Speaker 3: the time. We traveled all the time, often together, where

1105
00:57:46,685 --> 00:57:49,485
Speaker 3: we were leaving our kids for you know, chunks of

1106
00:57:49,525 --> 00:57:54,085
Speaker 3: time with you know, babysitters or my brilliant parents who

1107
00:57:54,085 --> 00:57:58,765
Speaker 3: were always you know there for us. But you know,

1108
00:57:58,805 --> 00:58:00,285
Speaker 3: we sort of were able to look at each other

1109
00:58:00,285 --> 00:58:03,605
Speaker 3: and say, you know what like that, that was nice

1110
00:58:03,725 --> 00:58:07,285
Speaker 3: to be together, but it wasn't so great for the kids,

1111
00:58:07,325 --> 00:58:09,805
Speaker 3: and it wasn't so great for our life style. It

1112
00:58:09,845 --> 00:58:13,605
Speaker 3: was very chaotic to have to you know, travel in

1113
00:58:13,925 --> 00:58:17,565
Speaker 3: these chunks. So I think that's some of the boundary

1114
00:58:17,605 --> 00:58:21,045
Speaker 3: setting that as I sort of you know, re emerged

1115
00:58:21,125 --> 00:58:23,605
Speaker 3: and you know he took on you know, you know,

1116
00:58:24,405 --> 00:58:25,805
Speaker 3: different opportunities.

1117
00:58:27,245 --> 00:58:28,325
Speaker 4: You know, we were able to have that.

1118
00:58:28,245 --> 00:58:32,925
Speaker 3: Conversation together, but no, I mean, the job loss impacted

1119
00:58:33,005 --> 00:58:35,965
Speaker 3: us both personally and professionally.

1120
00:58:36,565 --> 00:58:38,925
Speaker 1: Laura, Yeah, I think for me Brandon was just was

1121
00:58:39,005 --> 00:58:42,245
Speaker 1: like my my, you know, uh not even husband, but

1122
00:58:42,245 --> 00:58:45,125
Speaker 1: we've been together almost got ten almost ten years in

1123
00:58:45,125 --> 00:58:48,645
Speaker 1: a september, But he was like what the hell? Like

1124
00:58:48,725 --> 00:58:52,045
Speaker 1: A was number one, just like are you serious? Like

1125
00:58:52,205 --> 00:58:55,085
Speaker 1: you're fantastic at your job and who are these idiots?

1126
00:58:55,125 --> 00:58:57,005
Speaker 1: Blah blah blah. You know, that's sort of loyalty thing

1127
00:58:57,085 --> 00:59:02,325
Speaker 1: number one. Two. I think what ended up happening it

1128
00:59:02,405 --> 00:59:04,485
Speaker 1: is again as similar thing to Christina. We'd go away

1129
00:59:04,525 --> 00:59:06,885
Speaker 1: to these these these chunks of time and do all

1130
00:59:06,925 --> 00:59:08,765
Speaker 1: this sort of stuff and and somebody they'd come along

1131
00:59:08,805 --> 00:59:10,445
Speaker 1: with me and he would really love it or you know,

1132
00:59:10,605 --> 00:59:13,325
Speaker 1: and and and so I think what ended up happening

1133
00:59:13,365 --> 00:59:16,045
Speaker 1: and what's actually been a real benefit, even though like

1134
00:59:16,085 --> 00:59:19,045
Speaker 1: at the beginning starting my own business, I'm invoicing people

1135
00:59:19,045 --> 00:59:21,125
Speaker 1: and writing down when the money's coming and all of

1136
00:59:21,125 --> 00:59:25,445
Speaker 1: that rickety rickety stuff. I think what has benefited both

1137
00:59:25,485 --> 00:59:28,485
Speaker 1: of us in the end is that we have our

1138
00:59:28,685 --> 00:59:32,285
Speaker 1: rhythms of our day are more similar now and and

1139
00:59:32,525 --> 00:59:35,565
Speaker 1: we can you know, even Christina has an can go

1140
00:59:35,565 --> 00:59:37,085
Speaker 1: into an office, but we can all have the we

1141
00:59:37,165 --> 00:59:39,245
Speaker 1: can work remotely, we can work when we're away, and

1142
00:59:39,285 --> 00:59:41,885
Speaker 1: so it gave both of us, at least in the

1143
00:59:41,925 --> 00:59:44,165
Speaker 1: first year. I was like, Oh, we have all this mobility,

1144
00:59:44,245 --> 00:59:45,765
Speaker 1: let's go and take it. You know, let's go I

1145
00:59:45,845 --> 00:59:48,685
Speaker 1: can zoom from some random place of a monitor trip.

1146
00:59:48,845 --> 00:59:54,205
Speaker 1: So I think that was head actually that I do,

1147
00:59:54,285 --> 00:59:57,005
Speaker 1: you know, the HIV organization, So but I could I

1148
00:59:57,005 --> 00:59:59,925
Speaker 1: could go and do my work from there because I can't.

1149
01:00:00,725 --> 01:00:05,285
Speaker 1: So I think that in the end it did. It

1150
01:00:05,365 --> 01:00:08,125
Speaker 1: was certainly better for us. He will we. I think

1151
01:00:08,325 --> 01:00:11,605
Speaker 1: any any relationship, household, depending on your your your incomes,

1152
01:00:11,605 --> 01:00:13,365
Speaker 1: has its own economy. You have to set up you know,

1153
01:00:13,365 --> 01:00:15,845
Speaker 1: if someone's the bread whenner, someone's going to go get

1154
01:00:15,845 --> 01:00:18,245
Speaker 1: the groceries. You know, someone's going to go and run

1155
01:00:18,285 --> 01:00:20,565
Speaker 1: the errand. And then I think that's how any any

1156
01:00:20,885 --> 01:00:24,405
Speaker 1: any relationship you know, works, So we certainly have have

1157
01:00:24,525 --> 01:00:28,125
Speaker 1: worked that out. But yeah, I mean at the very

1158
01:00:28,165 --> 01:00:30,085
Speaker 1: much shocked at the time, but I think how things

1159
01:00:30,125 --> 01:00:32,965
Speaker 1: have sort of ended up to and you know, God,

1160
01:00:33,165 --> 01:00:36,325
Speaker 1: two and a half years later, there is a calm

1161
01:00:36,405 --> 01:00:38,685
Speaker 1: that kind of kind of comes because we're not also

1162
01:00:38,765 --> 01:00:41,565
Speaker 1: chasing around a lot of bullshit things that that you know,

1163
01:00:41,765 --> 01:00:44,645
Speaker 1: came with our jobs, and there are bullshit things in

1164
01:00:44,965 --> 01:00:47,245
Speaker 1: anywhere you work. And suddenly when you kind of, you know,

1165
01:00:47,245 --> 01:00:48,805
Speaker 1: when you're conked on the head like those old Disney

1166
01:00:48,845 --> 01:00:51,005
Speaker 1: cartoons and the stars are going around book, you know

1167
01:00:51,085 --> 01:00:56,805
Speaker 1: what I mean, you kind of And why'd I give

1168
01:00:56,805 --> 01:00:59,165
Speaker 1: a touss about that? They didn't give me anything, you know,

1169
01:00:59,205 --> 01:01:01,045
Speaker 1: but sometimes you have to get conked on the bloody head.

1170
01:01:01,725 --> 01:01:05,685
Speaker 5: Well, I mean, I think you're a great conk on

1171
01:01:05,725 --> 01:01:08,805
Speaker 5: the head, Laura, You're just a constant. I think you're

1172
01:01:08,805 --> 01:01:11,765
Speaker 5: a constant conk. I want you just to tell me

1173
01:01:12,805 --> 01:01:13,365
Speaker 5: I love it.

1174
01:01:13,525 --> 01:01:14,725
Speaker 2: I want you to tell me.

1175
01:01:15,605 --> 01:01:19,405
Speaker 5: About the night that you went for a drink after

1176
01:01:19,485 --> 01:01:23,965
Speaker 5: Christina got tried, and the selfie that you decided to

1177
01:01:23,965 --> 01:01:27,325
Speaker 5: put up that started at all. Yeah, and as I

1178
01:01:27,365 --> 01:01:31,565
Speaker 5: want to hear it from Christina because I think, because yeah,

1179
01:01:31,645 --> 01:01:33,765
Speaker 5: please take it to her. Yeah, I want to know

1180
01:01:33,885 --> 01:01:37,965
Speaker 5: how it appeared from her through the prism of her

1181
01:01:38,165 --> 01:01:39,365
Speaker 5: lens at that time.

1182
01:01:40,725 --> 01:01:44,045
Speaker 3: Well, Laura is very straightforward, right. So in the taxi

1183
01:01:44,125 --> 01:01:45,165
Speaker 3: on the way over, we were.

1184
01:01:45,165 --> 01:01:48,725
Speaker 2: Racing to this really fancy place.

1185
01:01:49,165 --> 01:01:52,885
Speaker 3: MX Centurion Lounge, which a friend of ours was doing.

1186
01:01:53,125 --> 01:01:57,325
Speaker 3: You know, pr four and it invited us for a drink,

1187
01:01:57,485 --> 01:02:00,365
Speaker 3: and so, you know, these are the things you do

1188
01:02:00,445 --> 01:02:02,165
Speaker 3: when you are suddenly laid off. You're like, great, y'all

1189
01:02:02,205 --> 01:02:04,285
Speaker 3: go to a fancy place, have like expensive wine, cool,

1190
01:02:04,325 --> 01:02:05,125
Speaker 3: cool the time.

1191
01:02:05,725 --> 01:02:07,605
Speaker 4: So we both show.

1192
01:02:07,485 --> 01:02:10,445
Speaker 3: Up and on the way there, you know, Laura said, Okay,

1193
01:02:10,485 --> 01:02:12,405
Speaker 3: here's what we're going to do. We're going to take

1194
01:02:12,405 --> 01:02:15,405
Speaker 3: a selfie and we're going to post it and say

1195
01:02:15,445 --> 01:02:20,445
Speaker 3: all the cool girls get fired. And I thought, yeah, okay,

1196
01:02:20,605 --> 01:02:24,765
Speaker 3: I'll teach you you we Yeah, I was down with it. Listen,

1197
01:02:24,805 --> 01:02:31,165
Speaker 3: I am not the social media you know queen. But

1198
01:02:31,285 --> 01:02:36,525
Speaker 3: I think this sort of went along with what I

1199
01:02:36,565 --> 01:02:40,045
Speaker 3: really thought was important from the beginning, which was letting

1200
01:02:40,165 --> 01:02:44,845
Speaker 3: people know I didn't leave that job willingly. And the

1201
01:02:44,845 --> 01:02:49,445
Speaker 3: word fired is taboo, and I thought there was a

1202
01:02:49,445 --> 01:02:52,525
Speaker 3: little bit of you know, sauce to the post.

1203
01:02:52,565 --> 01:02:57,725
Speaker 4: I thought it was cheeky and I needed to get

1204
01:02:57,725 --> 01:02:58,565
Speaker 4: back in the workforce.

1205
01:02:58,605 --> 01:03:03,005
Speaker 3: I needed to, you know, telegraph that I'm available. And

1206
01:03:03,045 --> 01:03:05,725
Speaker 3: by telling people you are fired, you are sending a

1207
01:03:05,765 --> 01:03:10,885
Speaker 3: signal like hey, true thing happened and like let's take

1208
01:03:10,925 --> 01:03:11,365
Speaker 3: a meeting.

1209
01:03:11,685 --> 01:03:12,645
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1210
01:03:12,685 --> 01:03:16,525
Speaker 3: So so I wasn't against it at at all. I mean,

1211
01:03:16,605 --> 01:03:20,645
Speaker 3: This was before collab posts, so I imagine that would

1212
01:03:20,685 --> 01:03:22,525
Speaker 3: have probably been a decision I would have had to make,

1213
01:03:22,565 --> 01:03:24,045
Speaker 3: like am I gonna let Laura just be the one?

1214
01:03:24,165 --> 01:03:26,325
Speaker 3: Or you know, are we both going with it. I

1215
01:03:26,325 --> 01:03:28,005
Speaker 3: don't know what the answer would have been. You know,

1216
01:03:28,045 --> 01:03:31,925
Speaker 3: back then it was still very raw. But we posted it,

1217
01:03:31,965 --> 01:03:36,325
Speaker 3: and you know, we were overwhelmed by the responses from

1218
01:03:36,405 --> 01:03:40,565
Speaker 3: the women who commented, and you know, some of them

1219
01:03:41,165 --> 01:03:45,965
Speaker 3: said simply, you know, been there, part of the club,

1220
01:03:46,685 --> 01:03:47,965
Speaker 3: Thanks for your honesty.

1221
01:03:49,205 --> 01:03:49,445
Speaker 1: You know.

1222
01:03:49,725 --> 01:03:52,445
Speaker 3: Wow, you guys are really owning it. No one says

1223
01:03:52,485 --> 01:03:55,925
Speaker 3: they've been fired. Someone wrote I knew it, you know,

1224
01:03:56,005 --> 01:03:59,125
Speaker 3: because I think they, you know, they were like I

1225
01:03:59,165 --> 01:04:03,205
Speaker 3: knew she had been fired, Like there was no way. Yeah,

1226
01:04:03,365 --> 01:04:05,525
Speaker 3: And you know, and then we went to sleep and

1227
01:04:05,845 --> 01:04:08,645
Speaker 3: woke up the next morning and we're having a laugh

1228
01:04:08,845 --> 01:04:13,005
Speaker 3: just about you know, the sort of insane response the

1229
01:04:13,045 --> 01:04:16,565
Speaker 3: post scot and the number of comments. And I called

1230
01:04:16,605 --> 01:04:18,325
Speaker 3: Laura and I remember standing in my bathroom. It was

1231
01:04:18,325 --> 01:04:20,045
Speaker 3: like eight thirty in the morning. I was getting you know,

1232
01:04:20,125 --> 01:04:22,685
Speaker 3: ready to take the kids to school, and I said,

1233
01:04:23,605 --> 01:04:24,885
Speaker 3: I said, you.

1234
01:04:24,845 --> 01:04:26,885
Speaker 4: Know, like putting out a makeup, like trying to do

1235
01:04:27,085 --> 01:04:31,445
Speaker 4: you know, one of those, and I said, this is

1236
01:04:31,485 --> 01:04:35,845
Speaker 4: a book. It's a book, like I knew.

1237
01:04:36,765 --> 01:04:40,685
Speaker 3: And listen, we're not self help, you know, divas, this

1238
01:04:40,725 --> 01:04:43,445
Speaker 3: is not We're not in the category. This is a

1239
01:04:44,085 --> 01:04:46,045
Speaker 3: you know, we sort of chuckle that this is the

1240
01:04:46,405 --> 01:04:49,925
Speaker 3: categorization of the book because we, you know, we're not

1241
01:04:51,165 --> 01:04:55,245
Speaker 3: experts on anything except what it feels like to be

1242
01:04:55,365 --> 01:05:00,285
Speaker 3: fired and what it feels like to get out there

1243
01:05:00,685 --> 01:05:05,245
Speaker 3: and get over it. And I think the fact that

1244
01:05:05,285 --> 01:05:10,245
Speaker 3: there were so so many corroborative post like comments, you know,

1245
01:05:10,285 --> 01:05:11,725
Speaker 3: we knew we had to talk to these women.

1246
01:05:11,925 --> 01:05:13,005
Speaker 4: I wanted to hear from them.

1247
01:05:13,045 --> 01:05:17,285
Speaker 3: We wanted to sort of connect with this incredible kind

1248
01:05:17,325 --> 01:05:20,445
Speaker 3: of community that you know, sort of swelled around Laura's post,

1249
01:05:20,725 --> 01:05:22,125
Speaker 3: and so we knew that was the first step. And

1250
01:05:22,125 --> 01:05:23,805
Speaker 3: this is the book we said we were going to write.

1251
01:05:23,885 --> 01:05:25,645
Speaker 3: You know. A couple of weeks later, we were sitting

1252
01:05:26,085 --> 01:05:28,565
Speaker 3: on the couch at my parents' house down in Virginia.

1253
01:05:29,005 --> 01:05:34,885
Speaker 3: It was my dad's seventieth birthday, Richard's, and we wrote

1254
01:05:34,885 --> 01:05:39,725
Speaker 3: a book proposal over two days, too many pictures of

1255
01:05:39,765 --> 01:05:43,605
Speaker 3: Margarita's And this is the book we said we were

1256
01:05:43,605 --> 01:05:44,205
Speaker 3: going to write.

1257
01:05:44,325 --> 01:05:46,765
Speaker 5: And it's a book that no one else has written,

1258
01:05:47,685 --> 01:05:48,565
Speaker 5: which is unusual.

1259
01:05:48,765 --> 01:05:50,765
Speaker 1: They say in the end the states there's a white

1260
01:05:50,805 --> 01:05:54,765
Speaker 1: space as a white space for that book, but there

1261
01:05:54,885 --> 01:05:57,765
Speaker 1: was no one has written it. Because I think again

1262
01:05:57,765 --> 01:06:01,565
Speaker 1: what we're trying to address is to this point, there's

1263
01:06:01,565 --> 01:06:04,325
Speaker 1: been a lack of ownership of this of of what's

1264
01:06:04,365 --> 01:06:07,085
Speaker 1: happened to you, And we owned it, and and we

1265
01:06:07,125 --> 01:06:11,245
Speaker 1: owned to a degree that we've now this resource that

1266
01:06:11,285 --> 01:06:14,965
Speaker 1: we hope. I mean, we've had women coming up to

1267
01:06:15,285 --> 01:06:17,005
Speaker 1: I've had women coming up to me in the street,

1268
01:06:17,325 --> 01:06:20,085
Speaker 1: you know, going like, when's the book coming? I can

1269
01:06:20,085 --> 01:06:23,405
Speaker 1: always it. Really, I've been fighted and it's already and

1270
01:06:23,485 --> 01:06:26,765
Speaker 1: the thing isn't even on the bloodyshelves yet, it's already.

1271
01:06:26,805 --> 01:06:30,445
Speaker 1: We can feel these little tweaks of changes of behaviors

1272
01:06:30,485 --> 01:06:31,925
Speaker 1: of like no, it happened to me too. It happened

1273
01:06:31,965 --> 01:06:35,645
Speaker 1: to me too, and where that it wasn't there before,

1274
01:06:36,045 --> 01:06:38,565
Speaker 1: or you know, or I have a need for this

1275
01:06:38,645 --> 01:06:41,285
Speaker 1: when when can I read it? But there's also we

1276
01:06:41,365 --> 01:06:43,245
Speaker 1: have this inbuilt community that we had in that very

1277
01:06:43,245 --> 01:06:47,285
Speaker 1: first night and women writing us either you know, we

1278
01:06:47,325 --> 01:06:49,485
Speaker 1: have an email address for our you know, our core

1279
01:06:49,485 --> 01:06:52,645
Speaker 1: girls email address. We've had so many women sharing us stories,

1280
01:06:52,645 --> 01:06:55,005
Speaker 1: and a bunch of them were in the book. And

1281
01:06:55,045 --> 01:06:59,285
Speaker 1: we still have every day a few dms from people

1282
01:06:59,365 --> 01:07:02,205
Speaker 1: about what it is all and we've responded to every

1283
01:07:02,205 --> 01:07:03,965
Speaker 1: single one of them because we know there is that

1284
01:07:04,005 --> 01:07:07,245
Speaker 1: community there and we know how alone you can feel

1285
01:07:07,245 --> 01:07:09,045
Speaker 1: when this happens, and we don't want anyway to feel

1286
01:07:09,045 --> 01:07:09,365
Speaker 1: like that.

1287
01:07:09,725 --> 01:07:13,525
Speaker 5: And also what you've done that's very beautiful is that

1288
01:07:13,565 --> 01:07:18,645
Speaker 5: you've found each other. So so many women like you said,

1289
01:07:18,685 --> 01:07:22,405
Speaker 5: it's such a lonely experience, and then when you add

1290
01:07:22,405 --> 01:07:24,885
Speaker 5: the cloak of shame and the secrecy in the whatever,

1291
01:07:24,965 --> 01:07:29,085
Speaker 5: it's very isolating. But what you've done is counter to

1292
01:07:29,205 --> 01:07:33,685
Speaker 5: that intuition. Reached out and gone where's my friend? You

1293
01:07:33,765 --> 01:07:38,165
Speaker 5: held hands, you drank Margarita's, you posted a selfie, and

1294
01:07:38,205 --> 01:07:41,765
Speaker 5: now you literally written a book that I think will

1295
01:07:41,805 --> 01:07:46,205
Speaker 5: help so many women find their freedom and their feet again.

1296
01:07:47,005 --> 01:07:49,245
Speaker 1: Thank you. And I got to say, Christina, one of

1297
01:07:49,285 --> 01:07:52,885
Speaker 1: the best words in the English languages is how Australians

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01:07:52,925 --> 01:07:56,965
Speaker 1: say beautiful. Yes, the loveliest compliment. That was like, oh,

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01:07:57,005 --> 01:08:01,045
Speaker 1: it's beautiful. It is the most it is the greatest compliment.

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01:08:01,125 --> 01:08:05,805
Speaker 1: It is the greatest appreciation. And we really love to

1301
01:08:05,845 --> 01:08:08,045
Speaker 1: hear that, And that was the entire point, you know,

1302
01:08:08,165 --> 01:08:10,125
Speaker 1: even coming from a bit of our chest beating at

1303
01:08:10,125 --> 01:08:13,765
Speaker 1: the beginning, like you know what this you know has

1304
01:08:14,285 --> 01:08:17,125
Speaker 1: has become this this kind of ground spot. And as

1305
01:08:17,165 --> 01:08:21,085
Speaker 1: you said when you at the very start of this recording,

1306
01:08:21,085 --> 01:08:22,645
Speaker 1: when you were saying you were sending pictures to your

1307
01:08:22,645 --> 01:08:26,085
Speaker 1: girlfriends and parts of that book and how that can

1308
01:08:26,125 --> 01:08:29,405
Speaker 1: be awful, we're just honored and thrilled to hear that.

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01:08:29,885 --> 01:08:33,005
Speaker 1: You know, Oh, this is the book that your girlfriend

1310
01:08:33,045 --> 01:08:36,365
Speaker 1: should give you. You know, when when this happens, we

1311
01:08:36,405 --> 01:08:39,965
Speaker 1: want it to be that you already doing that, so.

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01:08:40,005 --> 01:08:46,085
Speaker 5: We won't give it to her before she gets fired.

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01:08:46,205 --> 01:08:49,965
Speaker 2: And guess well, you know what it is here?

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01:08:50,005 --> 01:08:52,885
Speaker 1: It is, you know, and I think that that we

1315
01:08:52,965 --> 01:08:55,285
Speaker 1: want that to be that sort of that that that

1316
01:08:55,325 --> 01:08:57,765
Speaker 1: tool and that roadmap and that shortcut tool. You know,

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01:08:58,005 --> 01:08:59,765
Speaker 1: through all of this work that we've done, that we

1318
01:08:59,805 --> 01:09:03,045
Speaker 1: can make these girls, boys and otherwise feel better.

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01:09:04,005 --> 01:09:07,245
Speaker 5: If finally, if you could whisper one thing to yourself

1320
01:09:08,445 --> 01:09:12,645
Speaker 5: before you got what would it be, Christina.

1321
01:09:12,645 --> 01:09:15,245
Speaker 1: It's going to be Okay, God damn it, that was mine.

1322
01:09:15,805 --> 01:09:17,365
Speaker 2: Maybe that's maybe that's it.

1323
01:09:18,045 --> 01:09:21,805
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is going to be okay. I thing be beautiful.

1324
01:09:22,205 --> 01:09:25,925
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, listen, it's better than okay, right, But

1325
01:09:26,245 --> 01:09:30,405
Speaker 3: in that moment, I did not walk into that room

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01:09:30,485 --> 01:09:34,645
Speaker 3: telling myself it's going to be okay. And now it's

1327
01:09:34,725 --> 01:09:38,525
Speaker 3: better than okay, you know. I mean, it's it's been

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01:09:38,725 --> 01:09:43,445
Speaker 3: such a you know, curious and fascinating journey that Laura

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01:09:43,485 --> 01:09:46,605
Speaker 3: and I are on. And if we can be not

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01:09:46,645 --> 01:09:49,605
Speaker 3: only friends to each other, but friends to a community

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01:09:49,645 --> 01:09:52,365
Speaker 3: out there who are going through it, you know, that's

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01:09:52,405 --> 01:09:53,485
Speaker 3: the biggest reward of all.

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01:09:53,845 --> 01:09:55,445
Speaker 5: Who doesn't want to be friends with all the cool

1334
01:09:55,485 --> 01:09:59,285
Speaker 5: girls the.

1335
01:09:59,285 --> 01:10:00,125
Speaker 1: Cool girl band?

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01:10:01,525 --> 01:10:02,765
Speaker 4: This is the club to join.

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01:10:03,205 --> 01:10:07,445
Speaker 2: Thanks Laura, Thanks Christina.

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01:10:06,285 --> 01:10:07,245
Speaker 1: Thank you so much.

1339
01:10:07,885 --> 01:10:08,645
Speaker 4: Thanks Kate.

1340
01:10:10,805 --> 01:10:15,565
Speaker 5: So that was Laura Brown, a very own Naussy, and

1341
01:10:15,645 --> 01:10:19,405
Speaker 5: Christina O'Neill, co authors of All the Girls Get Fired.

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01:10:20,005 --> 01:10:26,245
Speaker 5: This story is such a powerful and very much timely

1343
01:10:26,325 --> 01:10:30,285
Speaker 5: reminded that getting fired, no matter how shameful or devastating

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01:10:30,325 --> 01:10:33,525
Speaker 5: it feels in the moment, doesn't have to be the end.

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01:10:33,405 --> 01:10:34,045
Speaker 2: Of the story.

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01:10:34,085 --> 01:10:38,405
Speaker 5: It can be the start of something braver, freer, and

1347
01:10:38,485 --> 01:10:43,045
Speaker 5: more true to who you are. If today's conversation resonated

1348
01:10:43,085 --> 01:10:45,085
Speaker 5: with you, I would love for you to share this

1349
01:10:45,125 --> 01:10:48,285
Speaker 5: episode with a friend who might need it, and don't

1350
01:10:48,325 --> 01:10:51,125
Speaker 5: forget to follow No Filter wherever you listen to your

1351
01:10:51,125 --> 01:10:53,605
Speaker 5: podcasts so you never miss an episode.

1352
01:10:53,685 --> 01:10:56,925
Speaker 2: Because we're all in this together, don't you worry. We

1353
01:10:56,965 --> 01:10:58,165
Speaker 2: will be popping links.

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01:10:57,925 --> 01:11:00,365
Speaker 5: To Laura and Christina's book in the show notes, as

1355
01:11:00,365 --> 01:11:02,765
Speaker 5: well as other ways for you to stay connected to

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01:11:02,805 --> 01:11:06,245
Speaker 5: their work. Thank you for listening, and until next time,

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01:11:06,685 --> 01:11:09,965
Speaker 5: here's defining the kind of success that can ever be

1358
01:11:10,085 --> 01:11:13,245
Speaker 5: taken away from you. The executive producers of No Filter

1359
01:11:13,325 --> 01:11:16,685
Speaker 5: are Nama Brown and Breed Player. Sound design is by

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01:11:16,765 --> 01:11:20,645
Speaker 5: Jacob Brown. I'm your host, Kate lane Brook, and I'll

1361
01:11:20,645 --> 01:11:24,165
Speaker 5: be back with you next week. This episode was recorded

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01:11:24,165 --> 01:11:26,725
Speaker 5: at the Lovely Studio Session in Progress