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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to

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Speaker 2: MoMA Mia out loud. Well women are actually talking about

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Speaker 2: On Monday, the eleventh of November.

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Speaker 1: I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm Mia Friedman.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 2: And on the show today, Liam Payne, Jackie Oh and

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Speaker 2: who should be held responsible for another person's addiction? Also,

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Speaker 2: it's been five days, but it feels like a month

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Speaker 2: in the wash up from the American election? What's actually

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Speaker 2: useful in understanding what it means for women everywhere? And

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Speaker 2: a children's book written by a very famous man has

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Speaker 2: been pulled off the shelves all around the world. How

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Speaker 2: did it get there in the first place? But first, Jesse.

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Speaker 4: In case you missed it, there are six words where

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Speaker 4: being instructed not to google. A cyber security company named

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Speaker 4: Sophoss says that a very specific search term has led

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Speaker 4: to a bunch of cyber attacks. Here we go, John,

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Speaker 4: know what it is? You're not to google it aloud?

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Speaker 1: Us don't google it?

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Speaker 4: Are Bengal cats legal in Australia? What I know, you

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Speaker 4: would think, how common is that search term?

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Speaker 3: Right, it's like a Bengal cut.

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Speaker 1: What does it reveal about you?

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Speaker 4: Okay, so it doesn't necessarily reveal anything about you. But

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Speaker 4: what people have done, what the fraudulent scammers have done,

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Speaker 4: is the links at the top that would tell you

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Speaker 4: the answer are fraudulent, so once you click them, they

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Speaker 4: take all your personal information. So they found something that

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Speaker 4: is so like you wouldn't imagine there's any worry that

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Speaker 4: you would be like the victim of, you know, a

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Speaker 4: cyber attack just by googling that term.

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Speaker 1: But does it mean that a lot of people google

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Speaker 1: it or there's just this one specific term that there

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Speaker 1: aren't any legitimate answers to.

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Speaker 2: There are legitimated it.

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Speaker 4: They've infiltrated it, but it's more like they've found a

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Speaker 4: space where it's so inconspicuous. I think people think, if

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Speaker 4: they're googling, you know, hardcore porn, or if they're googling like,

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Speaker 4: you know, bad stuff online.

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Speaker 1: Then can I find love in Nigeria?

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Speaker 3: Yes? Then maybe have I won exactly?

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Speaker 4: Then maybe then you'll be tricked. But the idea you

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Speaker 4: could just be googling that which in Australia is kind

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Speaker 4: of a popular search term because it's obviously relevant to us.

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Speaker 1: Well, but is it that in every country? Like is

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Speaker 1: it a Bengal Tiger's.

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Speaker 4: Bengal cats legal in Australia. It's the same one in

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Speaker 4: every country. But they've said Australians you're particularly sensitive because

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Speaker 4: this is particularly relevant because I've.

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Speaker 2: Googled pot bellied pigs because you want to get one yea.

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Speaker 1: And tea cutlet cut pigs.

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Speaker 2: I did.

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Speaker 1: I went through a phase like you're goanting to get

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Speaker 1: a fringe. I had big feelings.

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Speaker 2: How do you think the dogs are going to feel

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Speaker 2: about your team?

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Speaker 1: They manifested into I think what could help me in

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Speaker 1: my life?

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Speaker 2: A little baby pig.

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Speaker 3: Leg that's never really a tea cup.

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Speaker 1: They can't get out what I learned through my googling.

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Speaker 1: So I have been paid a man five thousand times.

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Speaker 4: I've been meaning to ask you, guys, if you're on

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Speaker 4: the receiving end of this weird scam that I've been

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Speaker 4: on the receiving end of lately, which is I keep

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Speaker 4: getting emails from people being like, this is Richard the

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Speaker 4: manager of a very big podcast in a US.

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Speaker 3: Are you getting that?

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Speaker 4: I got that too, and then it's got like the

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Speaker 4: name of a real podcast it exists, and then it

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Speaker 4: says we would love you to be a guest. Kind

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Speaker 4: of looks like it was written by AI. But the

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Speaker 4: giveaway for me was when it said we'll pay you

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Speaker 4: three thousand dollars and I went, no one pays you

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Speaker 4: to be a guest on a podcast.

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Speaker 2: You're silly, silly, scam and.

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Speaker 4: It doesn't give you the name. But I kept asking Luca,

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Speaker 4: how is this a scam? Like how are they getting

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Speaker 4: things out of me? And he said, they will ask

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Speaker 4: for your bank details so that they can deposit it.

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Speaker 3: And then now take a details.

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Speaker 2: I keep getting ones that say, hey, Mom, I've lost

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Speaker 2: my phone, but it's always a tell because they always

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Speaker 2: say something like if you send me ten dollars, I

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Speaker 2: can receive it or whatever. And I'm always like, my

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Speaker 2: daughter would not say received. She wouldn't know whether the

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Speaker 2: E went before I went before the E.

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Speaker 3: Come on now, she'd say, give me money, mum, that bit.

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Speaker 1: I've been in records with you when she has texted

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Speaker 1: that exact thing, but it was her or was it not?

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Speaker 2: Actually was her? But that is just like need five

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Speaker 2: dollars for lollies.

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Speaker 1: Three people have been arrested and charged in Argentina over

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Speaker 1: the weekend in connection to the death of Liam Payne,

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Speaker 1: the One Direction star who died on the sixteenth of

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Speaker 1: October after he fell from his hotel balcony in Buenos Aires.

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Speaker 1: He was thirty one. The official toxicology results have also

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Speaker 1: been released, revealing that he had traces of alcohol, cocaine,

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Speaker 1: and prescription antidepressants in his body, and the post mortem

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Speaker 1: has also shown that because he did not adopt a

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Speaker 1: what's called a reflexive position during his fall, they could

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Speaker 1: tell that he was either semi conscious or totally unconscious

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Speaker 1: while he was falling. They have ruled out that anyone

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Speaker 1: else was involved or that he jumped.

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Speaker 4: So reading between the lines is the implication that it

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Speaker 4: was an accident, yes.

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Speaker 1: Okay, and that he was so out of it basically

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Speaker 1: that he fell off his balcony. So the people that

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Speaker 1: have been charged the first charges against someone who authorities

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Speaker 1: haven't named any of them, but they said it's someone

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Speaker 1: who accompanied him on a daily basis during his stay

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Speaker 1: in the city of Buenos Aires and is charged with

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Speaker 1: abandonment of a person followed by death and another defendant

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Speaker 1: is a hotel employee who is accused of supplying cocaine

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Speaker 1: on two occasions, and the third is an alleged drug

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Speaker 1: supplier who's also charged with supplying him on two separate occasions,

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Speaker 1: I think, including on the day that he died. Now,

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Speaker 1: as I said, no names have been released, but one

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Speaker 1: of the people that was reportedly seen with Liam Paye

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Speaker 1: in the hours before his death was a mate of

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Speaker 1: his who we won't name in case it has nothing

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Speaker 1: to do with him, but he has denied abandoning the singer,

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Speaker 1: And it got us thinking about whether the people around

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Speaker 1: a person with an addiction hold any responsibility because I

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Speaker 1: wasn't even aware. I mean, I guess every country's different,

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Speaker 1: but that there was a crime of Basically, it's like

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Speaker 1: a duty of care. Like if you are with someone

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Speaker 1: who is that out of it or unwell that they

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Speaker 1: could harm themselves and you just leave them and something

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Speaker 1: bad happens, then you are implicated in that death.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you'd imagine that's a hard one to implement because

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Speaker 2: you'd have to prove that the person knowingly abandoned them,

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Speaker 2: not like just left, just left. Yeah. But anyway, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think it's that you can leave. But if

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Speaker 1: this person is a risk to themselves are other people,

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Speaker 1: and you leave, then you are implicated. And this week

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Speaker 1: on No Filter, I interviewed Jackie and it was a

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Speaker 1: conversation about her addiction. We spoke about it on the show.

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Speaker 1: Last week her memoir came out and she revealed that

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Speaker 1: she'd been addicted to pills and alcohol for several years

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Speaker 1: and her rock bottom was different, and we spoke about

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Speaker 1: that on the show. But I also asked her best friend,

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Speaker 1: Jemma O'Neill, who was the first person Jackie called after

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Speaker 1: she hit rock bottom. Jemma, she's also in the interview

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Speaker 1: because I wanted to hear from Jemma's perspective how the

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Speaker 1: addiction played out, how surprised she was by that phone call,

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Speaker 1: and how she managed the period afterwards in dealing with

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Speaker 1: someone who had an addiction and then having to get

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Speaker 1: her to rehab because Gemma organized all of that. I

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Speaker 1: also asked Jackie whether she's angry at the person who

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Speaker 1: was supplying her with these prescription medications.

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Speaker 2: Here's what she said.

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Speaker 5: That's a good question, actually, because I know my friend

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Speaker 5: Gemma is angry with that person, but I am not,

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Speaker 5: because I put them in that situation, and I know

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Speaker 5: they gave me an extraordinarily large amount of medication, but

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Speaker 5: I can't turn around at the end of it all

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Speaker 5: and go, well, you shouldn't have done that. I don't

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Speaker 5: know what I was lying to them as well. I

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Speaker 5: mean I wasn't saying it was all for me. I

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Speaker 5: was saying, oh, yeah, I've got some people at work

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Speaker 5: who need you know, stellknos as well, because we all

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Speaker 5: work crazy hours.

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Speaker 1: So I was lying to them.

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Speaker 2: This is tricky because you don't want to go into

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Speaker 2: the specifics of this particular person who is supplying Jackio.

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Speaker 2: But that person was breaking the law, like quite obviously.

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Speaker 2: Obviously for doctors and pharmacists, there are very strict regulations

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Speaker 2: around a lot of medications and you have to jump

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Speaker 2: through a lot of hoops to get it approval to

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Speaker 2: write scripts. I mean, anyone who's on you know, ADHD

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Speaker 2: Meds knows that anyone who needs strong painkillers for legitimate

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Speaker 2: reasons knows that. So that person is to blame because

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Speaker 2: they broke the law.

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Speaker 4: Yes, but don't you think And I wonder if it's

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Speaker 4: similar with the Liam Payne story that what we do

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Speaker 4: with addicts, especially when they are someone in the public

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Speaker 4: eye who we feel like we know, or maybe there

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Speaker 4: is an addict in our life who we do know.

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Speaker 4: We like to have really clear parameters around who is

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Speaker 4: a victim and who is a perpetrator, and who is

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Speaker 4: exploiting who. An addiction mixes all of that up absolutely.

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Speaker 3: And when when you are an addict?

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Speaker 4: And I loved that answer by Jackie Oh because it

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Speaker 4: was so honest, and that is the number one thing

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Speaker 4: coming out of that book is everyone is saying she

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Speaker 4: did not have to be that honest, brilliant, But what

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Speaker 4: she was saying was I was exploiting them too. And

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Speaker 4: even in the case of Liam Pain, when I heard

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Speaker 4: the detail of the hotel worker, and again, supplying someone

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Speaker 4: with an illegal substance is a crime, right, but the

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Speaker 4: power dynamic in that if he's in a hotel room overseas,

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Speaker 4: and I think that we gramble to blame, and especially

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Speaker 4: when someone has died, and when you have this fandom

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Speaker 4: around Liam Pain. But Liam Payne also made a series

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Speaker 4: of decisions that were driven by his addiction, which is

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Speaker 4: an absolute tragedy. But I don't think it's as simple

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Speaker 4: as those people exploited him.

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Speaker 3: And I think This is.

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Speaker 4: What happens as well when addicts say I would have

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Speaker 4: done anything to get my hands on that. It doesn't

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Speaker 4: mean that it's right the people who are supplying it.

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Speaker 4: But I do think that there's a mess of power

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Speaker 4: and exploitation here that is very difficult to say.

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Speaker 1: Clearly. That's a really good point, because Jackie spoke to

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Speaker 1: me about how her assistant had seen all the empty

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Speaker 1: blister packs and had started writing her notes saying I'm

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Speaker 1: really worried about you. She was the first person to

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Speaker 1: confront her. But because Jackie wasn't ready to deal with

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Speaker 1: it and didn't well, she thought of herself as an adict,

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Speaker 1: but wasn't ready to deal with it, would just like

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Speaker 1: scrunch them up and throw them away and they would

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Speaker 1: never talk about it. And you're right, what power did

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Speaker 1: that person have to intervene? And Liam you told me

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Speaker 1: this morning. Hole which I didn't realize, is that he'd

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Speaker 1: been resuscitated a couple of times before. You know, family, friends,

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Speaker 1: girlfriends would more than likely have known that he was

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Speaker 1: a big drug user and that he was struggling with addiction.

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Speaker 1: What do you do, like, what do you literally do?

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Speaker 1: Do you call an ambulance. Do you call the police?

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Speaker 1: That was probably just another night for him, Maybe it won't.

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Speaker 4: And how many welds had pain been to where a

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Speaker 4: hotel worker, where some poor person off the street had

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Speaker 4: supplied him with cocaine. We don't know. Like he was

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Speaker 4: someone who had spoken about having addiction issues, but you

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Speaker 4: don't know it's going to be the time where someone

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Speaker 4: loses their line.

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Speaker 1: You can't.

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Speaker 2: I think the question about what do you do? That's

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Speaker 2: the tricky part mare because anyone who's loved an adict

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Speaker 2: knows that you can go to the ends of the

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Speaker 2: earth and you can try everything, and you can cut

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Speaker 2: them off, you can enable them, and you can intervene,

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Speaker 2: and you can refer them to places, and you can

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Speaker 2: pay for rehab. None of that is going to solve it.

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Speaker 1: We learned that from Matthew Perry.

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Speaker 2: Didn't we we did. He says he spent something like

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Speaker 2: nine million dollars in the end on trying to get

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Speaker 2: rid of his addiction, cure his addiction, and it did

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Speaker 2: not work. And he had professional sober coaches. That's something

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Speaker 2: that a lot of celebrities and people of means have

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Speaker 2: who live with them and try and keep the people

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Speaker 2: who would be happy to break their sobriety away. And

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Speaker 2: you can build fortresses around people to a point, but

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Speaker 2: at the end of the day, addiction is a very

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Speaker 2: tenacious disease and people will do all kinds of things.

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Speaker 2: So I think that Jackie Oh saying you know, I

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Speaker 2: was exploiting that person too, as you say, Jesse, is

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Speaker 2: being very honest. However, chows a lot of self awareness.

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Speaker 2: It does, and she's right. She's actually the only person

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Speaker 2: who knows exactly what she said to that person, the

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Speaker 2: lies she told, the lengths she went to, all of

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Speaker 2: those things, so she's the right person to make that comment. However,

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Speaker 2: it doesn't mean that the person who broke the law

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Speaker 2: and supplied you drugs that you shouldn't have had should

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Speaker 2: be off the hook. In New South Wales, there is

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Speaker 2: actually a crime on the books now for supplying drugs

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Speaker 2: that cause death and it was put in place after

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Speaker 2: a couple of festival deaths where friends were going to

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Speaker 2: festivals together and they might all take drugs right and

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Speaker 2: two young people that summer did tragically die and the

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Speaker 2: reason that law was rushed through was as a deterrent

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Speaker 2: to be the idea of like I might organize the

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Speaker 2: pills for everybody for this party, for example, to put

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Speaker 2: a deterrent in place, saying that can be risky if

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Speaker 2: you don't know what you're doing. But it's an imperfect

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Speaker 2: solution to anything, right, Because so it's not a crime

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Speaker 2: to supply the drugs if they don't die, but it

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Speaker 2: is if they do. The person who ran out on

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Speaker 2: li in pain that night, if indeed it was him,

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Speaker 2: may have done it many times before, or may have

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Speaker 2: been at the absolute end of their rope of like

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Speaker 2: I cannot try and unpick this one more time.

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Speaker 1: Or might have been really out of it themselves.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a very complicated situation that I think we

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Speaker 2: are only beginning to really get our heads around.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's interesting that this comes right on the

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Speaker 1: heels of the doctors who supplied Matthew Perry with kenemine

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Speaker 1: and his assistant who was injecting him, and this guy

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Speaker 1: had been his assistant for like twenty five years, who'd

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Speaker 1: seen him through a lot. And again you say, well,

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Speaker 1: how could you do that? How could you be supporting

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Speaker 1: an addict in that way? But the power imbalance, particularly

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Speaker 1: when it's a famous person, is really different. But I

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Speaker 1: loved I loved this interview, not because of any skill

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Speaker 1: on my part, but because the conversation that I had

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Speaker 1: with Gemma and Jackie about what addiction look like from

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Speaker 1: the inside and step by step, also what happened to

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Speaker 1: get out of it, like what it actually looked like

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Speaker 1: for Jemma to get Jackie to rehab and it wasn't easy,

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Speaker 1: and not just logistically, which was its own story, but

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Speaker 1: trying to get an add to agree to get help

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Speaker 1: that was really interesting. And who knows how many of

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Speaker 1: those conversations had been had with Lay and Pain and

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Speaker 1: indeed Matthew Perry before they died. Still to come, the

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Speaker 1: real winner from this year is the Block Australia Finale,

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Speaker 1: and it's not a contestant.

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Speaker 2: Friends, I'm not going to assume that I know how

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Speaker 2: you're feeling. Less than a week since the world tilted

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Speaker 2: just a little on its axis after an American election

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Speaker 2: result that was far less close and far more trumpy

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Speaker 2: than anyone imagined. You might be stoked, you might be depressed,

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Speaker 2: you might be quietly resigned, But after an intense saturation

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Speaker 2: of what the hell happened analysis in the days since,

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Speaker 2: you might also be confused. To help. We've listened to

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Speaker 2: a million podcasts and read a thousand think pieces on

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Speaker 2: this matter, so you don't have to, and very very

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Speaker 2: top line, we're going to give you a couple of

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Speaker 2: reasons for why the world is the way the world

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Speaker 2: is today. At least this is what experts are saying.

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Speaker 2: People are angry about the state of their lives, financially

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Speaker 2: predominantly in a post pandemic, hyperinflated, war torn cost of

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Speaker 2: living shit storm. People just want change and they want

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Speaker 2: things sorted, and all over the world they're tossing out

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Speaker 2: the governments they've already got in favor of someone anyone

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Speaker 2: with a new idea, don't shoot the messenger. I didn't

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Speaker 2: say that the guy has any particular new ideas. Also,

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Speaker 2: the thinking goes Harris ran a good campaign, but she

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Speaker 2: was never going to be able to distance herself from

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Speaker 2: the status quo because she was part of the status quote.

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Speaker 2: And then there's the Biden should have stood down sooner argument,

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Speaker 2: And there's this she should have gone on Joe Rogan argument,

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Speaker 2: and there's she was too radical. She wasn't radical in

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Speaker 2: our arguments. So there's all that, but another very big takeaway,

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Speaker 2: and what we want to talk about today is the

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Speaker 2: gender thing, because if you haven't already heard this, you're

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Speaker 2: about to. Almost all groups swung to Trump, but men

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Speaker 2: swung the hardest. Blame the manosphere, Blame Elon Mask, Blame

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Speaker 2: Rogan or Andrew Taate or whoever you want to blame,

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Speaker 2: but the data backs it up. In America, but not

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Speaker 2: only in America, men are leaning more right and women

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Speaker 2: are leaning more left. And now a man who has

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Speaker 2: had at least twenty six women accuse him of sexual

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Speaker 2: misconduct holds arguably the world's most powerful post again, yes

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Speaker 2: and no wonder. Your feed in the last few days

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Speaker 2: has been full of panicky, tearful, angry women asking why

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Speaker 2: America hates them so Jesse Stevens, do you think it's true?

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Speaker 1: Mine hasn't because I muted all those people win tongue Ago.

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Speaker 2: Does Trump's win mean that America just really does hate women?

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Speaker 4: I don't think it does, and I don't think it's helpful.

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Speaker 4: There's a few ways to approach it, because you can

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Speaker 4: wonder did people vote for Trump or did they've vote

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Speaker 4: for change? Did they vote against a woman or did

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Speaker 4: they vote against Biden's government? The answer is all of

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Speaker 4: those things like there are just so many voters that

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Speaker 4: there isn't one narrative, as hard as we might try

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Speaker 4: to overlay it. And really, when we try and throw

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Speaker 4: our narrative on it, all we want to do is

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Speaker 4: prove the theory we have about the world already. And

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Speaker 4: I got a newsletter from one of my favorite writers

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Speaker 4: this week and the subject line was this is how

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Speaker 4: much America still hates women, and it said they hate

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Speaker 4: us and they think we will learn to hate ourselves too,

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Speaker 4: And I just kept thinking, who are they again? It's

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Speaker 4: causing the increasing polarization, which I'm particularly sensitive to. And

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Speaker 4: I was listening to Ezra Kleine, who I've found his

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Speaker 4: analysis really really helpful, and he basically said, we have

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Speaker 4: two choices about how to approach this.

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Speaker 3: He's a Democrat.

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Speaker 4: If I was in the US, I would have voted

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Speaker 4: for Harris, to be clear, But he said we can

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Speaker 4: look at it with contempt and that anger and frustration

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Speaker 4: and go, oh my god, these are a bunch of.

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Speaker 3: Racists, which.

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Speaker 1: Sixteen was yeah, yeah, pussy hat protests, yes yeah.

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Speaker 4: Or we can look at it with curiosity and there's

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Speaker 4: not a lot of curiosity in yelling.

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Speaker 3: Everyone who voted for Trump hates women.

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Speaker 4: It also doesn't totally make sense because women voted for Trump,

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Speaker 4: Black people vote for Trump. Latinos like, it's a very

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Speaker 4: simplistic way of doing.

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Speaker 1: Different people can hate women, including women.

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Speaker 2: It's possible.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, yes, that's true, but I don't think that's the

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Speaker 4: only answer. And he said to be clear when he says,

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Speaker 4: approach it with curiosity. You don't need to fully understand it.

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Speaker 4: You certainly don't need to endorse it. Because bad leaders

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Speaker 4: are elected.

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Speaker 3: All of the time.

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Speaker 4: We don't have to go the majority was right, like,

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Speaker 4: you don't have to look at this and go I

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Speaker 4: think that what happened is right now that I actually

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Speaker 4: speak to people. But I think that if you are

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Speaker 4: confounded by something, and we've had examples in Australia as

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Speaker 4: of late, I think rather than just being horrified, and

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Speaker 4: I remember feeling this actually after the Voice when that

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Speaker 4: was voted down, I went, we live in a racist country.

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Speaker 4: And you know what, I actually think First Nations people

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Speaker 4: get to have their own opinion about that, and I'm

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Speaker 4: not First Nations, but I do think that it is

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Speaker 4: then worth going what were the hurdles and what did

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Speaker 4: people think they were voting for.

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Speaker 1: But I also disagree with that premise. I don't think

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Speaker 1: that the no vote was purely about racism, and that

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Speaker 1: would think it was also about the fact that the

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Speaker 1: campaign wasn't explained well, it wasn't clear what people would like.

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Speaker 1: There was a lot of confusion. Yeah, I think it

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Speaker 1: was handled badly. You know, there are a whole lot

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Speaker 1: of things. And so just like you say, not everybody

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Speaker 1: that voted for Trump hates women. Not everybody that voted

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Speaker 1: no is racist.

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Speaker 3: And it's a neat narrative.

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Speaker 4: And even with the same sex marriage plebiscite, in order

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Speaker 4: for the lobby groups to convince the no voters to

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Speaker 4: vote yes, they had to understand what the hurdles were

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Speaker 4: and they had to go, oh, so you're afraid that

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Speaker 4: this will happen, Let's communicate to you that that isn't

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Speaker 4: what will happen. And I just worry that yelling at

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Speaker 4: men that you hate us, yelling at everyone who voted

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Speaker 4: for Trump that they're racist and sexist, is just going

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Speaker 4: to lead us to greater polarization. And just on a

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Speaker 4: basic level, the panic we're throwing into the world like

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Speaker 4: that isn't good for us.

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Speaker 1: I've been thinking so much and listening to lots of

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Speaker 1: things because I had my twenty four hours of feeling

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Speaker 1: like that feeling. Oh and I still do, of course,

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Speaker 1: but I'm curious, like I'm really curious. And after the

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Speaker 1: twenty sixteen election, on No Filter, I did a series

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Speaker 1: about getting out of the bubble and talking to people

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Speaker 1: on the right and trying to understand the appeal of Trump,

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Speaker 1: and I've been wanting to do the same this time

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Speaker 1: and looking at all the different factors. A couple that

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Speaker 1: have stood out to me. I was listening to one

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Speaker 1: of my favorite podcasts about politics, pod Save America, and

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Speaker 1: they were saying how even though Kamala didn't run on

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Speaker 1: identity politics, she was smart in that way because it's

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Speaker 1: not very popular apart from on the left and the

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Speaker 1: hard left. She didn't mention her rage, she didn't mention

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Speaker 1: being a woman very different to Hillary. She owns a

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Speaker 1: gun like so she didn't try.

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Speaker 2: To say lots of Republicans to stand next to us,

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Speaker 2: she's bipartisan.

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Speaker 1: But a lot of people on the left and a

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Speaker 1: lot of influences and people on social media did still

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Speaker 1: frame it that way, and this idea of identity politics.

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Speaker 1: I even remember when she was first announced as a candidate,

439
00:22:47,567 --> 00:22:50,207
Speaker 1: there were all these zoom fundraisers that sprung up, and

440
00:22:50,247 --> 00:22:54,447
Speaker 1: it was like white women for Kamala, straight white men

441
00:22:54,567 --> 00:22:58,087
Speaker 1: for Kamala, and they had their own zoom black women.

442
00:22:58,207 --> 00:23:00,847
Speaker 1: And I think that there's a large proportion of the

443
00:23:00,887 --> 00:23:06,007
Speaker 1: population who really reject identity politics and don't want to

444
00:23:06,047 --> 00:23:09,647
Speaker 1: be categorized in that way. And it was interesting that

445
00:23:10,047 --> 00:23:12,887
Speaker 1: what people thought would be a deal breaker for Trump

446
00:23:12,967 --> 00:23:16,767
Speaker 1: or could be when the comedian comedian at his rally

447
00:23:16,967 --> 00:23:19,447
Speaker 1: said that Puerto Rico is a floating island of garbage

448
00:23:19,487 --> 00:23:24,087
Speaker 1: and Puerto Rican's votage for Trump. So this idea that

449
00:23:24,167 --> 00:23:27,127
Speaker 1: immigrants will necessarily all vote as a block, or women

450
00:23:27,207 --> 00:23:31,807
Speaker 1: will all vote as a block is just not is misguided.

451
00:23:31,887 --> 00:23:34,967
Speaker 1: And I think that that's something that I think over

452
00:23:35,007 --> 00:23:38,807
Speaker 1: the last decade or so, and I'm going to generalize,

453
00:23:38,847 --> 00:23:43,927
Speaker 1: but the scoldy nature of counsel culture and castigating everybody

454
00:23:44,047 --> 00:23:48,927
Speaker 1: that isn't morally pure enough in your estimation, or that

455
00:23:49,007 --> 00:23:52,327
Speaker 1: doesn't think exactly the same way as you do. I

456
00:23:52,367 --> 00:23:54,967
Speaker 1: think that that's really alienated people. And I think what

457
00:23:55,087 --> 00:23:58,447
Speaker 1: Trump does. I think Ezra Klin maybe said at last time,

458
00:23:58,527 --> 00:24:01,327
Speaker 1: or could have been Sam Harris. Trump makes people not

459
00:24:01,407 --> 00:24:04,967
Speaker 1: feel ashamed, which is not necessarily a good thing, because

460
00:24:04,967 --> 00:24:06,727
Speaker 1: he also makes them feel not ashamed if they are

461
00:24:06,807 --> 00:24:10,647
Speaker 1: racist or misogynist or grab women by pussy, which is shocking.

462
00:24:11,247 --> 00:24:12,807
Speaker 1: But there are a lot of people in the middle

463
00:24:13,207 --> 00:24:17,367
Speaker 1: who are tired of being called racist or sexist or

464
00:24:17,367 --> 00:24:20,327
Speaker 1: transphobic because they maybe accidentally use the wrong pronoun or

465
00:24:20,327 --> 00:24:25,247
Speaker 1: they question a particular part of an ideology, and I

466
00:24:25,287 --> 00:24:27,287
Speaker 1: think that also contributed to it.

467
00:24:27,527 --> 00:24:30,447
Speaker 2: I sympathize with it, like I think you're right Jesse

468
00:24:30,487 --> 00:24:32,087
Speaker 2: one hundred percent about like you've got to meet this

469
00:24:32,127 --> 00:24:34,607
Speaker 2: with curiosity. I've been having arguments with people all weekend

470
00:24:34,727 --> 00:24:38,047
Speaker 2: about the fact that we've just got to entirely and

471
00:24:38,047 --> 00:24:40,367
Speaker 2: when I say we, because we're moving into an election

472
00:24:40,447 --> 00:24:42,887
Speaker 2: year and Australia is different, but there will be lessons

473
00:24:42,927 --> 00:24:45,367
Speaker 2: taken from what just happened. They already reading about it.

474
00:24:45,767 --> 00:24:48,407
Speaker 2: You know, the Liberal Party, the National Party and other

475
00:24:48,447 --> 00:24:53,087
Speaker 2: parties on the right are energized, excited and hoping to

476
00:24:53,127 --> 00:24:55,487
Speaker 2: bring a culture war to our shores any moment now, right,

477
00:24:55,527 --> 00:24:57,807
Speaker 2: And I think that you've got to be curious. We've

478
00:24:57,847 --> 00:25:00,727
Speaker 2: got to watch the judgment and the dismissal that we

479
00:25:00,847 --> 00:25:03,847
Speaker 2: use all the time. I couldn't agree more. But just

480
00:25:03,887 --> 00:25:07,367
Speaker 2: a word for the crying women on Instagram, I entirely

481
00:25:07,647 --> 00:25:11,887
Speaker 2: get it. I particular killly entirely get it on that night,

482
00:25:12,007 --> 00:25:14,807
Speaker 2: in the first twenty four hours after that happened, because

483
00:25:15,887 --> 00:25:18,167
Speaker 2: I felt it really hard. On Wednesday, I woke up

484
00:25:18,207 --> 00:25:20,727
Speaker 2: panicking at three in the morning and like, it's a

485
00:25:20,727 --> 00:25:23,007
Speaker 2: word that's bandied around too much, but I felt very

486
00:25:23,127 --> 00:25:26,407
Speaker 2: triggered by this because the thing is, even though I

487
00:25:26,647 --> 00:25:30,087
Speaker 2: deeply believe that it wasn't about gender, actually I think

488
00:25:30,127 --> 00:25:31,927
Speaker 2: it was about class. That's what I think. This election

489
00:25:32,087 --> 00:25:35,367
Speaker 2: was really about. The things that the people who went

490
00:25:35,407 --> 00:25:37,247
Speaker 2: out and lined up and got off the couch and

491
00:25:37,287 --> 00:25:38,967
Speaker 2: did all the things to vote for Trump had to

492
00:25:39,047 --> 00:25:42,727
Speaker 2: overlook to put their little dot in that little box

493
00:25:43,407 --> 00:25:46,967
Speaker 2: were extraordinary from a woman's point of view, and they

494
00:25:47,007 --> 00:25:49,367
Speaker 2: are things that we've been learning for ten years, so

495
00:25:49,447 --> 00:25:53,407
Speaker 2: it wasn't necessarily new. Character doesn't matter, Cheating doesn't matter,

496
00:25:53,687 --> 00:25:57,407
Speaker 2: Bullying women doesn't matter, Groping women doesn't matter, Sexually assaulting

497
00:25:57,407 --> 00:26:00,447
Speaker 2: them in change rooms doesn't matter, calling them names, getting

498
00:26:00,447 --> 00:26:02,807
Speaker 2: whole arenas to chout bitch, lock her up, whatever you

499
00:26:02,847 --> 00:26:05,207
Speaker 2: want to do, it doesn't matter. So the people who

500
00:26:05,287 --> 00:26:07,407
Speaker 2: voted for him, and I don't believe they did it

501
00:26:07,407 --> 00:26:09,727
Speaker 2: because they liked that stuff. I'm entirely on bo that

502
00:26:09,807 --> 00:26:11,807
Speaker 2: some did. But some of them did, but they were

503
00:26:11,807 --> 00:26:14,007
Speaker 2: willing to overlook it, including all the women. It wasn't

504
00:26:14,927 --> 00:26:19,287
Speaker 2: It didn't disqualify, and that feels kind of viscerally shocking

505
00:26:19,367 --> 00:26:22,127
Speaker 2: for a lot of women. And I respond to that

506
00:26:22,287 --> 00:26:25,047
Speaker 2: very much. Did I get on Instagram and cry no?

507
00:26:25,527 --> 00:26:28,887
Speaker 2: Because I agree with you that putting that panic out

508
00:26:28,887 --> 00:26:31,767
Speaker 2: in the world is not good. But also I'm going

509
00:26:31,847 --> 00:26:34,127
Speaker 2: to make the clear point that that is an equal

510
00:26:34,127 --> 00:26:36,887
Speaker 2: opportunity game. All the right have done for a long time,

511
00:26:36,967 --> 00:26:39,127
Speaker 2: the Trumps have done for a long time is stoke

512
00:26:39,287 --> 00:26:43,207
Speaker 2: panic and fear themselves. So we can talk about cancel culture.

513
00:26:43,487 --> 00:26:45,807
Speaker 2: But the most damaging thing, in my opinion, about that

514
00:26:45,887 --> 00:26:47,887
Speaker 2: is how easily weaponized by the right. It is right.

515
00:26:48,127 --> 00:26:50,367
Speaker 2: You can't say anything anymore. Actually, look around, you can

516
00:26:50,407 --> 00:26:53,207
Speaker 2: say whatever you want. You're not in charge of anything anymore. Actually,

517
00:26:53,247 --> 00:26:55,807
Speaker 2: all the CEOs a big tech companies are male. You're

518
00:26:55,807 --> 00:26:57,727
Speaker 2: not in charge of anything anymore. I think we are

519
00:26:57,887 --> 00:27:01,447
Speaker 2: like it's an illusion that is easily weaponized by that

520
00:27:01,487 --> 00:27:04,727
Speaker 2: side of politics. So I agree entirely about taking the

521
00:27:04,767 --> 00:27:09,247
Speaker 2: temperature down, about not throwing like massive assertions out there

522
00:27:09,327 --> 00:27:13,447
Speaker 2: that men hate women. All these people only aren't educated

523
00:27:13,567 --> 00:27:15,447
Speaker 2: enough to understand what he's going to do. I hate

524
00:27:15,527 --> 00:27:18,847
Speaker 2: all that, but I also think that it's not only

525
00:27:18,887 --> 00:27:21,247
Speaker 2: the left who's guilty of throwing panic and fear out.

526
00:27:21,287 --> 00:27:23,047
Speaker 2: In fact, I think that's really how Trump won the

527
00:27:23,087 --> 00:27:25,487
Speaker 2: election is by saying all the things that are wrong

528
00:27:25,527 --> 00:27:28,927
Speaker 2: with your world are easily fixed by tough white people

529
00:27:28,967 --> 00:27:32,607
Speaker 2: in charge. And they turned the dial upon that rhetoric

530
00:27:33,007 --> 00:27:35,367
Speaker 2: really hard, and the Dems were actually trying to pull

531
00:27:35,407 --> 00:27:38,087
Speaker 2: it down all the time, and it didn't work. So

532
00:27:38,527 --> 00:27:40,647
Speaker 2: I agree with you that I think we need to

533
00:27:40,687 --> 00:27:42,647
Speaker 2: really watch that, But I also just kind of want

534
00:27:42,687 --> 00:27:44,007
Speaker 2: to say, I get it.

535
00:27:44,167 --> 00:27:45,967
Speaker 4: What was different about this time is that it was

536
00:27:46,127 --> 00:27:51,567
Speaker 4: post me too, like we were meant to have overcome something.

537
00:27:51,607 --> 00:27:53,007
Speaker 4: We had this cultural revolution.

538
00:27:53,167 --> 00:27:56,087
Speaker 1: But was it in part a backlash to me too?

539
00:27:56,167 --> 00:27:56,407
Speaker 2: Yeah?

540
00:27:56,527 --> 00:27:59,527
Speaker 1: Yeah, in the same way that some people say twenty

541
00:27:59,567 --> 00:28:03,447
Speaker 1: sixteen was a backlash to Obamama. Yeah, was this a

542
00:28:03,607 --> 00:28:06,127
Speaker 1: backlash to me too? I know what you're saying hole,

543
00:28:06,247 --> 00:28:10,167
Speaker 1: and I understand for me, when I look at the crying,

544
00:28:10,247 --> 00:28:15,727
Speaker 1: shouting women on Instagram, I choose not to do that.

545
00:28:16,047 --> 00:28:19,927
Speaker 1: I'm also conserving my energy, like I marched in the

546
00:28:19,967 --> 00:28:23,487
Speaker 1: streets after twenty sixteen. By the end of his term,

547
00:28:23,767 --> 00:28:26,767
Speaker 1: we will have had twelve years or more than twelve

548
00:28:26,847 --> 00:28:31,487
Speaker 1: years of Trump either being president, running for president, or

549
00:28:31,527 --> 00:28:35,327
Speaker 1: being president in waiting. That is a big chunk of

550
00:28:35,367 --> 00:28:37,927
Speaker 1: our lives. And I just for the same reason that

551
00:28:37,967 --> 00:28:41,047
Speaker 1: I had to switch off from American politics kind of

552
00:28:41,087 --> 00:28:44,647
Speaker 1: halfway through his second term, I feel that way now,

553
00:28:44,727 --> 00:28:47,047
Speaker 1: and I hate myself for that a little bit because

554
00:28:47,887 --> 00:28:50,847
Speaker 1: I just am like, I can't, I can't.

555
00:28:50,967 --> 00:28:52,167
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I want to be clear.

556
00:28:52,247 --> 00:28:55,407
Speaker 4: I don't think that the enemy here or the people

557
00:28:55,447 --> 00:28:58,727
Speaker 4: we should be criticizing people who had an emotional response

558
00:28:58,807 --> 00:29:03,167
Speaker 4: in on Corstagram. Absolutely not. And again I felt it too,

559
00:29:03,647 --> 00:29:06,047
Speaker 4: And I think that when you see who's running the world,

560
00:29:06,247 --> 00:29:08,727
Speaker 4: it feels deeply anti feminists, and I totally get that,

561
00:29:09,287 --> 00:29:11,807
Speaker 4: but I reckon that in terms of the next four

562
00:29:11,887 --> 00:29:14,767
Speaker 4: years and in fact where the culture is going. I've

563
00:29:14,807 --> 00:29:17,967
Speaker 4: heard a lot of we need to keep educating them,

564
00:29:18,247 --> 00:29:23,247
Speaker 4: educating them, and I think there is something so intrinsically condescending,

565
00:29:23,807 --> 00:29:27,287
Speaker 4: and that's not what curiosity is. Curiosity is going, what

566
00:29:27,527 --> 00:29:31,447
Speaker 4: do these people actually say, because they don't think that

567
00:29:31,527 --> 00:29:34,007
Speaker 4: they were taking away your abortion rights and they.

568
00:29:33,847 --> 00:29:36,967
Speaker 1: Don't think misinformation is different. Though, yes, I agree with you,

569
00:29:37,007 --> 00:29:40,007
Speaker 1: but oh someone's saying, oh, they just need to be told.

570
00:29:40,287 --> 00:29:43,127
Speaker 2: Yeah, one hundred percent agreement. And I also want to say,

571
00:29:43,127 --> 00:29:44,767
Speaker 2: because some out lauders have said to us, and it's

572
00:29:44,807 --> 00:29:48,327
Speaker 2: absolutely fair comment, they're like, if you're that surprised by this,

573
00:29:48,567 --> 00:29:50,007
Speaker 2: you're in a bubble. I want to make it clear

574
00:29:50,047 --> 00:29:55,087
Speaker 2: we actually weren't that surprised results, but the world was

575
00:29:55,127 --> 00:29:58,647
Speaker 2: surprised by the resounding scale of the election results. So

576
00:29:58,807 --> 00:29:59,767
Speaker 2: the fact that it was.

577
00:29:59,767 --> 00:30:02,567
Speaker 3: So even Trump, yeah, Trump was also stage.

578
00:30:02,647 --> 00:30:04,847
Speaker 2: So it's not of course we're in bubbles. We're all

579
00:30:04,847 --> 00:30:06,767
Speaker 2: in bubbles. I think that's the other thing that's massively

580
00:30:06,767 --> 00:30:08,887
Speaker 2: overlooked here is how much the media has changed and

581
00:30:08,887 --> 00:30:11,727
Speaker 2: how you can't compare these times really to old But

582
00:30:12,047 --> 00:30:14,167
Speaker 2: like a lot of people I know work harder to

583
00:30:14,167 --> 00:30:17,247
Speaker 2: get out of their bubbles than anybody. But it's still

584
00:30:17,247 --> 00:30:19,807
Speaker 2: a shock because it isn't what everybody thought was going

585
00:30:19,847 --> 00:30:22,247
Speaker 2: to happen. At this level, right, and it does say

586
00:30:22,287 --> 00:30:25,687
Speaker 2: something about the culture, and it's worth examining. Two and

587
00:30:25,727 --> 00:30:27,287
Speaker 2: a half million dollars in a community is a two

588
00:30:27,287 --> 00:30:28,207
Speaker 2: and a half three.

589
00:30:28,487 --> 00:30:30,727
Speaker 3: Three point five million?

590
00:30:30,967 --> 00:30:32,047
Speaker 1: What you're just wrong with?

591
00:30:32,127 --> 00:30:36,327
Speaker 2: What? Welcome to all or nothing? Where we unpack an

592
00:30:36,327 --> 00:30:39,407
Speaker 2: issue you either know everything or nothing about today. It's this.

593
00:30:40,327 --> 00:30:42,807
Speaker 2: You have either been talking for twenty four hours NonStop

594
00:30:42,847 --> 00:30:45,767
Speaker 2: about how Lambeau Guy bought every single house on the

595
00:30:45,767 --> 00:30:48,847
Speaker 2: block last night, or you think that me saying Lambeau

596
00:30:48,927 --> 00:30:52,687
Speaker 2: Guy is just me mispronouncing Lamborghini. And look, that would

597
00:30:52,727 --> 00:30:53,967
Speaker 2: be a fair assumption.

598
00:30:53,887 --> 00:30:54,647
Speaker 3: Are you.

599
00:30:54,687 --> 00:30:58,167
Speaker 1: No, Oh, Lamber Guy exactly is a guy.

600
00:30:57,967 --> 00:30:58,647
Speaker 2: With a Lambo.

601
00:30:59,007 --> 00:31:01,607
Speaker 1: So Lambo is a Lamborghini, I know it is.

602
00:31:01,647 --> 00:31:04,927
Speaker 2: But Lambeau Guy is his name? Oh I see, yeah,

603
00:31:04,967 --> 00:31:06,127
Speaker 2: I'm not mispronouncing.

604
00:31:06,887 --> 00:31:09,207
Speaker 1: So I'm so excited that you're going to explain this

605
00:31:09,407 --> 00:31:12,207
Speaker 1: because I fall into the know nothing about this camp

606
00:31:12,687 --> 00:31:15,927
Speaker 1: and everything I read about it yesterday I didn't understand

607
00:31:16,047 --> 00:31:18,087
Speaker 1: because it started in the middle of the stories. If

608
00:31:18,087 --> 00:31:20,407
Speaker 1: I knew who Lambeau Guy was, and I don't.

609
00:31:20,287 --> 00:31:23,367
Speaker 2: Good, I'm going to tell you very quickly. Last week,

610
00:31:23,447 --> 00:31:25,047
Speaker 2: of course, we were talking about a cheating scandal on

611
00:31:25,087 --> 00:31:27,367
Speaker 2: the block something something hotnestly. Who knows how all that

612
00:31:27,447 --> 00:31:29,527
Speaker 2: ended up, because all anyone cares about now is that

613
00:31:29,607 --> 00:31:32,767
Speaker 2: last night all the teams made loads of money because

614
00:31:32,767 --> 00:31:35,807
Speaker 2: they sold the five houses on Victoria's Philip Island for

615
00:31:35,847 --> 00:31:40,167
Speaker 2: a combined fifteen million to one person. Lambeau, guy, I bought.

616
00:31:39,967 --> 00:31:42,287
Speaker 3: Your house as well. Yeah you know that.

617
00:31:42,367 --> 00:31:48,407
Speaker 5: Yeah, I bought your house as well.

618
00:31:49,047 --> 00:31:52,007
Speaker 2: He's called that because he drives a bright yellow Lamborghini,

619
00:31:52,127 --> 00:31:55,127
Speaker 2: which is possibly the fanciest spoto on the road. He

620
00:31:55,207 --> 00:31:57,287
Speaker 2: drives other cars to McLaren's and things.

621
00:31:57,487 --> 00:31:59,887
Speaker 1: So do you think he might be rich?

622
00:32:00,167 --> 00:32:00,407
Speaker 2: Is that?

623
00:32:00,447 --> 00:32:00,887
Speaker 1: What? Yeah?

624
00:32:00,927 --> 00:32:01,727
Speaker 3: Okay, he's a rich man.

625
00:32:01,727 --> 00:32:03,167
Speaker 2: Why do we care? Well, let me tell you who

626
00:32:03,167 --> 00:32:05,007
Speaker 2: has that kind of money. He is a dude called

627
00:32:05,007 --> 00:32:08,727
Speaker 2: Adrian Portelli. He's from Melbourne and he's worth an estimated

628
00:32:08,727 --> 00:32:12,247
Speaker 2: billion dollar. He's only thirty five years old. He apparently

629
00:32:12,247 --> 00:32:14,967
Speaker 2: made all his money in tech startups, making and selling

630
00:32:14,967 --> 00:32:15,447
Speaker 2: apps in.

631
00:32:15,487 --> 00:32:17,007
Speaker 3: La Any apps we've heard of?

632
00:32:17,447 --> 00:32:21,167
Speaker 2: None that I had heard. He likes to spend his

633
00:32:21,367 --> 00:32:24,847
Speaker 2: money on his Instagram, where he has four hundred thousand

634
00:32:24,887 --> 00:32:28,047
Speaker 2: followers who like to watch him do it. Mostly it's

635
00:32:28,047 --> 00:32:30,607
Speaker 2: on cars, that look like toys. He has one kid,

636
00:32:30,887 --> 00:32:33,327
Speaker 2: and these days his job appears to be being rich.

637
00:32:33,367 --> 00:32:34,967
Speaker 2: He's one of those online guys.

638
00:32:35,207 --> 00:32:36,887
Speaker 1: Is he single, it's not clear.

639
00:32:37,087 --> 00:32:39,287
Speaker 2: He has a kid with a woman referred too often

640
00:32:39,287 --> 00:32:42,647
Speaker 2: as his mystery girlfriend, for who he bought a big,

641
00:32:42,687 --> 00:32:45,007
Speaker 2: fancy car as a push present for their baby, but

642
00:32:45,087 --> 00:32:48,087
Speaker 2: not entirely clear if they're still together these days. Lambeau

643
00:32:48,167 --> 00:32:50,967
Speaker 2: Guy makes more of his fortune by running one of

644
00:32:50,967 --> 00:32:53,647
Speaker 2: those online platforms that people subscribe to and they can

645
00:32:53,687 --> 00:32:56,927
Speaker 2: win prizes. And the last time he bought block houses,

646
00:32:56,967 --> 00:32:59,407
Speaker 2: he gave them away on that platform, so it's actually

647
00:32:59,447 --> 00:33:02,087
Speaker 2: like a business model to him. And he's just announced

648
00:33:02,167 --> 00:33:04,487
Speaker 2: that what he's doing with these five and their common

649
00:33:04,527 --> 00:33:07,927
Speaker 2: area and everything is giving them away as an entire

650
00:33:08,047 --> 00:33:12,567
Speaker 2: resort his subscribers and followers. So it's all part of

651
00:33:12,607 --> 00:33:13,247
Speaker 2: a scheme.

652
00:33:13,527 --> 00:33:15,447
Speaker 3: So did he buy all of the blockhouses?

653
00:33:15,567 --> 00:33:18,567
Speaker 2: So he bought all five of them. They didn't necessarily

654
00:33:18,607 --> 00:33:20,407
Speaker 2: know they were selling them to him, because what he does,

655
00:33:20,487 --> 00:33:22,447
Speaker 2: the reason he's called Lambeau Guy is he drives in

656
00:33:22,447 --> 00:33:24,447
Speaker 2: on his yellow Lamborghini at the last minute. He's done

657
00:33:24,447 --> 00:33:26,287
Speaker 2: it in the last three years, I think on the

658
00:33:26,327 --> 00:33:28,687
Speaker 2: block on the block, and he drives up and he goes,

659
00:33:28,727 --> 00:33:30,967
Speaker 2: it was me, or sometimes it is him. Sometimes he

660
00:33:31,007 --> 00:33:33,367
Speaker 2: has a buyer's agent. So the five people didn't necessarily

661
00:33:33,447 --> 00:33:35,047
Speaker 2: know it was him until the end when he comes

662
00:33:35,047 --> 00:33:38,167
Speaker 2: in and he goes, I bought them all, and now

663
00:33:38,207 --> 00:33:40,767
Speaker 2: maybe he'll give away that house with the terrible garden

664
00:33:40,767 --> 00:33:42,527
Speaker 2: where the guy told the other one that he wanted

665
00:33:42,527 --> 00:33:43,807
Speaker 2: to go out for a drink, whether even though it.

666
00:33:43,847 --> 00:33:47,687
Speaker 1: Were that's interesting. So the part I did understand in

667
00:33:47,767 --> 00:33:50,327
Speaker 1: what I read is the reason that he bought them all,

668
00:33:50,527 --> 00:33:52,527
Speaker 1: apart from it being a good way to get a

669
00:33:52,527 --> 00:33:56,287
Speaker 1: lot of attention, is there, as apparently I've not watched it.

670
00:33:56,287 --> 00:33:59,847
Speaker 1: There's a common area, and if they were all going

671
00:33:59,887 --> 00:34:02,087
Speaker 1: to be sold to different people, everybody would get like

672
00:34:02,127 --> 00:34:05,167
Speaker 1: a fifth of that common area. But he gets the

673
00:34:05,167 --> 00:34:07,127
Speaker 1: whole common area because he owns all of it. So

674
00:34:07,167 --> 00:34:08,967
Speaker 1: he then says it's worth more. I don't know how

675
00:34:08,967 --> 00:34:11,087
Speaker 1: to think about it. Do I have to have a thought?

676
00:34:11,207 --> 00:34:16,567
Speaker 4: No? Okay, I imagine he just really likes the blocks.

677
00:34:15,607 --> 00:34:18,807
Speaker 2: Because buying houses that were on the block. Buying houses

678
00:34:18,847 --> 00:34:20,487
Speaker 2: that are on the block, if you're smart, can make

679
00:34:20,527 --> 00:34:23,287
Speaker 2: you a lot of money because everybody's seen that house,

680
00:34:23,327 --> 00:34:25,127
Speaker 2: and they want that house. And if you don't pay

681
00:34:25,167 --> 00:34:27,167
Speaker 2: too far over the odds, you can sell it on

682
00:34:27,687 --> 00:34:29,327
Speaker 2: or you can do what he does, and you can,

683
00:34:29,527 --> 00:34:31,527
Speaker 2: you know, give it away on the internet. Not he

684
00:34:31,567 --> 00:34:32,807
Speaker 2: hasn't done that with all of them. Give it away

685
00:34:32,807 --> 00:34:35,087
Speaker 2: on the internet, make everybody pay you for the honor,

686
00:34:35,367 --> 00:34:38,527
Speaker 2: and then get richer again. Anyway, you probably don't need

687
00:34:38,567 --> 00:34:40,807
Speaker 2: to remember about Lambeau guy because he says he's not

688
00:34:40,807 --> 00:34:42,647
Speaker 2: going to buy any more block houses. That was his

689
00:34:42,687 --> 00:34:45,887
Speaker 2: swan song and he's out. Oh do you feel in

690
00:34:45,967 --> 00:34:48,527
Speaker 2: any way better about anything knowing that information.

691
00:34:48,647 --> 00:34:50,167
Speaker 4: I needed to know who he was because I've seen

692
00:34:50,167 --> 00:34:52,887
Speaker 4: his name around and now I understand sort of. After

693
00:34:52,927 --> 00:34:56,287
Speaker 4: the break, Jamie Oliver and the children's book pulled from

694
00:34:56,327 --> 00:34:57,447
Speaker 4: shelves globally.

695
00:34:59,247 --> 00:35:01,967
Speaker 1: Do you want daily outloud access? Why wouldn't you? We

696
00:35:02,127 --> 00:35:07,127
Speaker 1: drop episodes every Tuesday and Thursday exclusively for Muma MEA subscribers.

697
00:35:07,407 --> 00:35:09,087
Speaker 1: Follow the link in the show notes to get us

698
00:35:09,087 --> 00:35:12,127
Speaker 1: in five days a week, and a huge thank you

699
00:35:12,327 --> 00:35:13,767
Speaker 1: if you're already a subscriber.

700
00:35:20,727 --> 00:35:24,567
Speaker 4: Jamie Oliver celebrity chef and author of twenty four best

701
00:35:24,567 --> 00:35:26,607
Speaker 4: selling cookbooks. He's in Australia.

702
00:35:27,207 --> 00:35:29,047
Speaker 1: Did you know actually you're having good week.

703
00:35:29,167 --> 00:35:30,687
Speaker 4: He's not having a good week. But did you know

704
00:35:30,767 --> 00:35:34,047
Speaker 4: that Jamie Oliver is the best selling non fiction author

705
00:35:34,167 --> 00:35:37,247
Speaker 4: in all of UK history because of his cookbooks.

706
00:35:36,887 --> 00:35:40,047
Speaker 1: More than Harry Oh, Harry pottersy.

707
00:35:40,647 --> 00:35:43,327
Speaker 2: That there are non fiction books about that wizarding school

708
00:35:43,327 --> 00:35:43,967
Speaker 2: in Scotland.

709
00:35:45,367 --> 00:35:46,647
Speaker 1: Didn't they make a documentary?

710
00:35:47,927 --> 00:35:48,687
Speaker 2: They made seven?

711
00:35:49,327 --> 00:35:50,447
Speaker 1: It's the documentary.

712
00:35:53,727 --> 00:35:55,487
Speaker 3: Nonfiction is when a book is true.

713
00:35:55,927 --> 00:36:00,367
Speaker 4: Sorry, that is what makes what I'm about to tell

714
00:36:00,407 --> 00:36:03,927
Speaker 4: you all the more baffling. Oliver's latest children's book is

715
00:36:03,927 --> 00:36:06,647
Speaker 4: titled Billy and the Epic Escape, has been withdrawn from

716
00:36:06,687 --> 00:36:10,447
Speaker 4: sale due to an offensive storyline regarding First Nations people.

717
00:36:11,407 --> 00:36:12,407
Speaker 3: So, according to The.

718
00:36:12,327 --> 00:36:15,687
Speaker 1: Guardian, seems a bit out of his wheelhouse. Yeah, he's

719
00:36:15,727 --> 00:36:18,687
Speaker 1: a cookbook author. What's he doing writing about?

720
00:36:18,767 --> 00:36:21,047
Speaker 4: So this is the second children's book and I was

721
00:36:21,087 --> 00:36:22,847
Speaker 4: a bit confused initially because I thought it was.

722
00:36:22,807 --> 00:36:24,007
Speaker 3: Like a real children's book.

723
00:36:24,007 --> 00:36:26,767
Speaker 4: But it's a four hundred page like you know, for

724
00:36:26,847 --> 00:36:28,687
Speaker 4: primary school age k what we.

725
00:36:28,687 --> 00:36:30,927
Speaker 2: Call a chapter book. A chapter book when your kids

726
00:36:30,927 --> 00:36:33,527
Speaker 2: move from the picture books that Luna's looking at yeap

727
00:36:33,607 --> 00:36:35,367
Speaker 2: to like reading on their own. It's chapterable.

728
00:36:35,447 --> 00:36:38,487
Speaker 4: It's a chapter book, okay, so according to the Guardian,

729
00:36:38,567 --> 00:36:41,247
Speaker 4: I have not read this book because it has been pulled.

730
00:36:41,287 --> 00:36:44,527
Speaker 4: But a young First Nations girl in foster care appears

731
00:36:44,527 --> 00:36:46,487
Speaker 4: in the book. Her name is Ruby and she is

732
00:36:46,607 --> 00:36:49,767
Speaker 4: living in an Indigenous community in Alice Springs when she

733
00:36:49,767 --> 00:36:52,807
Speaker 4: gets kidnapped by the villain of the book. The adults

734
00:36:52,847 --> 00:36:57,047
Speaker 4: responsible for Ruby are distracted by the villain's promise of

735
00:36:57,127 --> 00:37:01,807
Speaker 4: funding for their community projects. Once subducted, this little Ruby

736
00:37:01,967 --> 00:37:05,007
Speaker 4: tells the English kids that she can read people's minds

737
00:37:05,047 --> 00:37:09,527
Speaker 4: and communicate with animals and plants, because that's the Indigenous way.

738
00:37:10,087 --> 00:37:13,367
Speaker 4: The chapter of the story is called to Steal a Child.

739
00:37:14,687 --> 00:37:17,407
Speaker 4: Sharon Davis, who's the CEO of the National Aboriginal and

740
00:37:17,487 --> 00:37:21,367
Speaker 4: Touristrate Islander Education Commission, She described the book as damaging

741
00:37:21,407 --> 00:37:25,047
Speaker 4: and said it perpetuates the harmful stereotype that First Nation's

742
00:37:25,127 --> 00:37:28,807
Speaker 4: families are easily swayed by money and neglect the safety

743
00:37:28,847 --> 00:37:32,727
Speaker 4: of their children. The book also contains errors, so while

744
00:37:32,727 --> 00:37:36,247
Speaker 4: the girl is supposed to be from Mumbunta, Alice Springs,

745
00:37:36,607 --> 00:37:39,967
Speaker 4: she uses language from the Gamilloy people of New South

746
00:37:39,967 --> 00:37:44,087
Speaker 4: Wales and Queensland, so Oliver and Penguin Random House UK

747
00:37:44,527 --> 00:37:49,167
Speaker 4: conceded to Guardian Australia that no consultation with any indigenous organization,

748
00:37:49,407 --> 00:37:52,887
Speaker 4: community or individual took place before the book was published.

749
00:37:53,567 --> 00:37:57,047
Speaker 4: Oliver has released the following statement. I am devastated to

750
00:37:57,087 --> 00:38:00,407
Speaker 4: have caused offense and apologize wholeheartedly. It was never my

751
00:38:00,527 --> 00:38:05,447
Speaker 4: intention to misinterpret this deeply painful issue. Together with my publishers,

752
00:38:05,567 --> 00:38:08,447
Speaker 4: we have decided to withdraw the book from sale. The

753
00:38:08,487 --> 00:38:12,847
Speaker 4: publisher then said, Penguin Random House UK publishes the work

754
00:38:12,927 --> 00:38:16,527
Speaker 4: and takes responsibility for the consultation or what we would

755
00:38:16,607 --> 00:38:19,407
Speaker 4: call an authenticity read of the work. It was our

756
00:38:19,527 --> 00:38:23,207
Speaker 4: editorial oversight that this did not happen it should have,

757
00:38:23,647 --> 00:38:29,247
Speaker 4: and the author asked for one, and we apologize unreservedly. Holly,

758
00:38:29,327 --> 00:38:32,087
Speaker 4: I think the question we're all asking here is how

759
00:38:32,127 --> 00:38:33,007
Speaker 4: did this happen?

760
00:38:33,647 --> 00:38:37,847
Speaker 2: Well, according to Penguin Random House right there, it happened

761
00:38:37,847 --> 00:38:42,087
Speaker 2: because they either forgot or didn't bother to get a

762
00:38:42,127 --> 00:38:45,407
Speaker 2: sensitivity read, an authenticity read, as they're calling it, which

763
00:38:45,447 --> 00:38:50,167
Speaker 2: seems remarkable right because Jamie Oliver's children's book is going

764
00:38:50,247 --> 00:38:53,327
Speaker 2: to be high profile, a big release, just in terms

765
00:38:53,327 --> 00:38:55,247
Speaker 2: of the way that book publishing works. And I'm not

766
00:38:55,287 --> 00:38:58,207
Speaker 2: an expert expert, but obviously we all have had books

767
00:38:58,247 --> 00:39:01,647
Speaker 2: published and we understand the process. Publishing a big book

768
00:39:01,687 --> 00:39:03,727
Speaker 2: by a big author like Jamie Oliver is not something

769
00:39:03,767 --> 00:39:05,607
Speaker 2: that just happens in over a weekend, you know what

770
00:39:05,647 --> 00:39:07,207
Speaker 2: I mean. It's not like he hands it in and

771
00:39:07,247 --> 00:39:09,127
Speaker 2: you go, sure, we'll just run it upon the photo

772
00:39:09,487 --> 00:39:11,207
Speaker 2: and put it on the shelf. That's not how it works.

773
00:39:11,327 --> 00:39:13,967
Speaker 1: Presumably he didn't even write it. Let's be honest, Well,

774
00:39:14,007 --> 00:39:15,807
Speaker 1: who knows, right, well, he would have worked with the guys.

775
00:39:16,287 --> 00:39:19,887
Speaker 2: I'm sure we have talked about how celebrities, lots of

776
00:39:19,927 --> 00:39:22,447
Speaker 2: celebrities of writing children's books. We talked about that recently

777
00:39:22,527 --> 00:39:26,487
Speaker 2: because well, clearly they're very lucrative. So this book would

778
00:39:26,487 --> 00:39:30,727
Speaker 2: have gone through several rounds of edits. I mean, it's fiction,

779
00:39:30,887 --> 00:39:34,407
Speaker 2: so checking is an interesting idea when it comes to fiction.

780
00:39:35,047 --> 00:39:38,087
Speaker 2: But you would think, because this kid travels around the world,

781
00:39:38,327 --> 00:39:40,967
Speaker 2: as I understand it, so the Australia chapter is only

782
00:39:40,967 --> 00:39:44,207
Speaker 2: one chapter in many you would think that there could

783
00:39:44,247 --> 00:39:47,127
Speaker 2: be all kinds of potential pitfalls such a high profile book.

784
00:39:47,167 --> 00:39:49,887
Speaker 2: There to get things wrong, cause a fence, cause a storm,

785
00:39:50,007 --> 00:39:52,487
Speaker 2: exactly like the one that he's in now. So the

786
00:39:52,527 --> 00:39:54,767
Speaker 2: idea that they didn't check that is wild.

787
00:39:55,047 --> 00:39:57,687
Speaker 1: Now that I understand the difference between fiction and nonfiction,

788
00:39:58,287 --> 00:40:02,527
Speaker 1: I've never written fiction. Apparently I have written nonfiction. You've

789
00:40:02,527 --> 00:40:06,087
Speaker 1: both written fiction. I would like to know when and

790
00:40:06,447 --> 00:40:09,807
Speaker 1: why do you decide to use an authentic reader or

791
00:40:09,847 --> 00:40:12,687
Speaker 1: a sensitivity reader who pays for that. How does it work?

792
00:40:12,927 --> 00:40:15,767
Speaker 4: It's often written into people's contracts. It depends if that's

793
00:40:15,807 --> 00:40:19,247
Speaker 4: coming from the author, but the publisher as well would

794
00:40:19,287 --> 00:40:24,287
Speaker 4: often suggest, we think that because you've written a character

795
00:40:24,567 --> 00:40:27,407
Speaker 4: who is from the Pacific Islands, then it would be

796
00:40:27,447 --> 00:40:29,567
Speaker 4: a very good idea for you to get someone to

797
00:40:29,607 --> 00:40:32,327
Speaker 4: read this. The big one as well is about neurodiversity

798
00:40:32,367 --> 00:40:34,767
Speaker 4: at the moment, like having someone read it who's from

799
00:40:34,807 --> 00:40:36,807
Speaker 4: that community and can pick up on things that you

800
00:40:36,847 --> 00:40:39,207
Speaker 4: simply couldn't because you didn't belong.

801
00:40:39,287 --> 00:40:41,807
Speaker 1: And there's been a lot of discussion over the years

802
00:40:42,247 --> 00:40:46,047
Speaker 1: about whether authors can write in the voice of people

803
00:40:46,087 --> 00:40:48,887
Speaker 1: who have a different lived experience to them, maybe people

804
00:40:48,887 --> 00:40:53,367
Speaker 1: from different cultures or different genders or different sexualities, because

805
00:40:53,487 --> 00:40:56,887
Speaker 1: the publisher won't know necessarily until you've pounded in the book. Right.

806
00:40:57,327 --> 00:41:00,487
Speaker 2: So the thing is is to be honest, how big

807
00:41:00,487 --> 00:41:02,967
Speaker 2: a deal the book's going to be will probably inform

808
00:41:03,007 --> 00:41:05,647
Speaker 2: how much they're willing to invest in that kind of thing, right,

809
00:41:06,087 --> 00:41:09,047
Speaker 2: So sometimes the author will do it. I remember recently

810
00:41:09,367 --> 00:41:11,727
Speaker 2: Picoha's in Australia and Jesse and I both did an

811
00:41:11,727 --> 00:41:13,927
Speaker 2: event with her. But I listened back to an interview

812
00:41:13,927 --> 00:41:16,887
Speaker 2: that you did with Jody in twenty sixteen, actually the

813
00:41:16,887 --> 00:41:20,327
Speaker 2: first time Trump got elected. Yes, but she had just

814
00:41:20,407 --> 00:41:23,527
Speaker 2: written a book then. One of the main characters was

815
00:41:23,567 --> 00:41:26,807
Speaker 2: an African American woman and the other main character was

816
00:41:26,967 --> 00:41:29,727
Speaker 2: a white supremacist male right, and she wrote from both

817
00:41:29,767 --> 00:41:33,607
Speaker 2: their perspectives the chapters of Select between Them. Now, that

818
00:41:33,647 --> 00:41:36,487
Speaker 2: book did get criticism for that, no question, and she

819
00:41:36,727 --> 00:41:39,327
Speaker 2: said herself that she's not entirely sure she would do

820
00:41:39,367 --> 00:41:42,647
Speaker 2: that again, but she was at great pains to point

821
00:41:42,647 --> 00:41:45,727
Speaker 2: out to you and to everybody that she had You

822
00:41:45,727 --> 00:41:48,647
Speaker 2: don't just hand a book to a person with that

823
00:41:48,687 --> 00:41:50,487
Speaker 2: lived experience and go tell me if I got this right.

824
00:41:50,487 --> 00:41:52,527
Speaker 2: If you're doing it properly, you have to make sure

825
00:41:52,567 --> 00:41:54,527
Speaker 2: you've got the right people. You've got a range of

826
00:41:54,527 --> 00:41:56,927
Speaker 2: opinions who are going to give you insights into whether

827
00:41:57,047 --> 00:41:59,847
Speaker 2: or not you've struck the right words, whether you've gotten

828
00:41:59,847 --> 00:42:02,967
Speaker 2: ever anything wildly out of proportion or wrong. And in

829
00:42:03,007 --> 00:42:06,847
Speaker 2: this instance it seems to be clear that if Oliver

830
00:42:07,047 --> 00:42:10,407
Speaker 2: had had a read on this from First Nations organization

831
00:42:10,527 --> 00:42:13,847
Speaker 2: or individuals, they would have said maybe not that, maybe

832
00:42:13,887 --> 00:42:14,927
Speaker 2: not that, and maybe not that.

833
00:42:15,167 --> 00:42:17,767
Speaker 4: And this is why you go with a big publisher

834
00:42:17,807 --> 00:42:20,127
Speaker 4: as well, like Penguin Random House UK would be one

835
00:42:20,167 --> 00:42:22,687
Speaker 4: of the biggest publishers in the UK. That's why they've

836
00:42:22,687 --> 00:42:25,087
Speaker 4: got Jamie Oliver. The reason that people don't want to

837
00:42:25,087 --> 00:42:27,767
Speaker 4: self publish often is you want to have the backing

838
00:42:28,247 --> 00:42:30,527
Speaker 4: of a big publisher who will look after you. I've

839
00:42:30,527 --> 00:42:32,767
Speaker 4: had instances and I would actually give the example if

840
00:42:32,807 --> 00:42:34,887
Speaker 4: I could remember it, but I used to turn a

841
00:42:35,007 --> 00:42:38,487
Speaker 4: phrase that I didn't realize was offensive, that you know,

842
00:42:38,607 --> 00:42:41,487
Speaker 4: might have been a description or it was rooted in

843
00:42:41,527 --> 00:42:44,767
Speaker 4: some history that I had no idea about. And it

844
00:42:44,847 --> 00:42:48,447
Speaker 4: goes through your editor, and then it goes through copy edits,

845
00:42:48,487 --> 00:42:51,007
Speaker 4: and at least I would say, at least four or

846
00:42:51,007 --> 00:42:55,247
Speaker 4: five people read your full manuscript, and your primary editor

847
00:42:55,247 --> 00:42:58,367
Speaker 4: reads it multiple multiple times. That was picked up immediately,

848
00:42:58,487 --> 00:43:01,447
Speaker 4: and my initial reaction is just I'm so lucky, like

849
00:43:01,487 --> 00:43:04,167
Speaker 4: I'm so lucky that I've got someone who can look

850
00:43:04,207 --> 00:43:06,687
Speaker 4: at that for me. So I'm looking at this going

851
00:43:07,527 --> 00:43:11,327
Speaker 4: Jamie Oliver. He was really let down by his publisher,

852
00:43:11,487 --> 00:43:13,567
Speaker 4: and you can say that there is a lot of

853
00:43:14,127 --> 00:43:16,007
Speaker 4: context where you go, oh, you wouldn't touch that. But

854
00:43:16,047 --> 00:43:20,607
Speaker 4: it also reminded me that in Australia, I am so

855
00:43:20,727 --> 00:43:25,367
Speaker 4: grateful that our curriculum from kindergarten, even from early education

856
00:43:26,007 --> 00:43:29,487
Speaker 4: covers first nation's history and it's so integrated we are

857
00:43:29,567 --> 00:43:31,247
Speaker 4: beginning to it's true.

858
00:43:31,247 --> 00:43:34,247
Speaker 1: Actually a generation ago, no one would have even kicked

859
00:43:34,247 --> 00:43:37,007
Speaker 1: this up. Yes, wouldn't let alone, you know, withdrawn the

860
00:43:37,007 --> 00:43:39,807
Speaker 1: book from sale. There was no such a thing. So

861
00:43:39,847 --> 00:43:42,287
Speaker 1: I think, you know, I think we should acknowledge that

862
00:43:42,287 --> 00:43:44,807
Speaker 1: we've come a long way. Clearly there's further to go.

863
00:43:45,007 --> 00:43:49,087
Speaker 4: Yeah, but in the UK to go wow, to have

864
00:43:49,247 --> 00:43:52,967
Speaker 4: missed that. Yeah, there is just a total other universe

865
00:43:53,087 --> 00:43:54,487
Speaker 4: that I suppose they're living here.

866
00:43:54,647 --> 00:43:57,607
Speaker 1: But certainly arrogant to not think that you would need

867
00:43:57,607 --> 00:44:01,967
Speaker 1: to consult with people when you're writing about their culture, and.

868
00:44:01,927 --> 00:44:05,647
Speaker 2: Publishers, including Penguin Random House here in Australia generally acknowledge

869
00:44:05,687 --> 00:44:09,207
Speaker 2: that sensitivity readers or authenticity readers have made books better,

870
00:44:09,367 --> 00:44:11,727
Speaker 2: you know, they make all kinds of literature better because

871
00:44:12,127 --> 00:44:16,327
Speaker 2: more authentic, rooted in real experience, and you know that

872
00:44:16,487 --> 00:44:20,047
Speaker 2: really sometimes it is definitely the writer's obligation to do

873
00:44:20,087 --> 00:44:23,047
Speaker 2: that first. But when you're a writer on the scale

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00:44:23,087 --> 00:44:26,287
Speaker 2: of Jamie Oliver, he would have definitely assumed that they

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00:44:26,287 --> 00:44:27,687
Speaker 2: were going to do that, I think.

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00:44:27,687 --> 00:44:29,807
Speaker 4: And I learned something when I was in the Northern

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00:44:29,887 --> 00:44:33,207
Speaker 4: Territory recently. I was speaking to a lot of First

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00:44:33,287 --> 00:44:35,567
Speaker 4: Nations people and I would ask a question. Let's say

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00:44:35,567 --> 00:44:37,047
Speaker 4: I was in Alice Springs and I'd ask a question

880
00:44:37,087 --> 00:44:39,727
Speaker 4: about Darwin, and the person I was speaking to would say,

881
00:44:40,127 --> 00:44:43,007
Speaker 4: I can't tell you that story the way that country works.

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00:44:43,207 --> 00:44:46,207
Speaker 4: And this is you know, very generalized, but it's the

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00:44:46,247 --> 00:44:48,927
Speaker 4: same as when someone does a welcome to country. That

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00:44:49,007 --> 00:44:51,407
Speaker 4: needs to be their country. So if a story is

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00:44:51,447 --> 00:44:54,247
Speaker 4: going to be told, you can't just go somewhere else

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00:44:54,567 --> 00:44:57,047
Speaker 4: and tell it. So there is such nuance and such

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00:44:57,087 --> 00:45:01,407
Speaker 4: complexity with storytelling in a culture that is forty thousand

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00:45:01,487 --> 00:45:05,047
Speaker 4: years old that you would need, you know, a sensitivity

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00:45:05,047 --> 00:45:07,527
Speaker 4: reader for anything that's covering that kind of material.

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00:45:08,007 --> 00:45:10,367
Speaker 2: That's all we've got time for to I massive thank

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00:45:10,407 --> 00:45:12,047
Speaker 2: you to all of our out louders for listening to

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00:45:12,047 --> 00:45:13,967
Speaker 2: today's show and being here with us, and to our

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00:45:14,007 --> 00:45:15,927
Speaker 2: fabulous team for putting it together. We're going to be

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00:45:15,927 --> 00:45:17,007
Speaker 2: back in your ears tomorrow.

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Speaker 1: Bye bye.

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00:45:19,167 --> 00:45:21,687
Speaker 4: Shout out to any Mum and me A subscribers listening.

897
00:45:21,967 --> 00:45:24,087
Speaker 4: If you love the show and you want to support us,

898
00:45:24,327 --> 00:45:27,127
Speaker 4: subscribing to Mom and Mia is the very best way

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00:45:27,167 --> 00:45:29,727
Speaker 4: to do so. There's a link in the episode description.