1 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. 2 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 2: One thing I need to say is that if you 3 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:14,959 Speaker 2: are a grown person and you are still a bully, 4 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:17,759 Speaker 2: you need to go get a new life, because there's 5 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 2: no way that you are in your twenties, thirties, forties, 6 00:00:21,759 --> 00:00:24,640 Speaker 2: whatever and you still terrorize people. 7 00:00:24,919 --> 00:00:25,959 Speaker 1: Like if this is high. 8 00:00:25,759 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 2: School and kids bullying is one thing, but like adult 9 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:30,639 Speaker 2: bullying for what? 10 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 1: For MoMA Mia, I'm your host, Ashani Dante. Welcome to 11 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 1: But Are You Happy? The podcast for people who start 12 00:00:41,160 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 1: therapy then immediately want their therapists to be really proud 13 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 1: of them. 14 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 3: And I'm doctor Anna Stagia. Hernis a clinical psychologist passionate 15 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 3: about happiness and mental health. Now, bullying isn't something that 16 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 3: just happens in childhood. It can happen to adults as well, 17 00:00:57,200 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 3: in all sorts of settings. 18 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 1: You can never really get rid of bullies, can you. 19 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:05,760 Speaker 3: Unfortunately, bullying is more common than many people realize. Today, 20 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 3: we're going to talk about how we can stand up 21 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,039 Speaker 3: to adult bullies in a mature and effective way. 22 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 1: Let's get into it. So, when we think of bullies, 23 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:18,959 Speaker 1: we often think of that classic archetype that you see 24 00:01:18,960 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: in high school, right, But the reality is bullies are 25 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 1: in every stage of life. So I guess my question 26 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 1: is why do people bully? 27 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 3: Good question? 28 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 1: Why are people mean? 29 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:34,119 Speaker 3: Tell us they give me lots of different reasons, right, 30 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 3: So one reason might be that a person wants to 31 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 3: establish power, control, or dominance over someone else or a 32 00:01:45,320 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 3: group of people. So, I know we're talking about adults 33 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 3: bullies and bullying, but if we use a sort of 34 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 3: childhood example, imagine the sort of new kid that starts 35 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 3: at a new school and they're immediately quite mean and 36 00:01:57,560 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 3: bully some of the other students. They want to establish 37 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 3: their place in the pecking order, so to speak. So 38 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:05,440 Speaker 3: it really can be about trying to find status and 39 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 3: assert dominance in those situations. 40 00:02:08,079 --> 00:02:11,919 Speaker 1: It's really interesting that you're talking about essentially social hierarchy 41 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 1: and it's like, oh, the meaner you are, the more 42 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 1: power and respect you have. But it's also that's not 43 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:21,240 Speaker 1: actually the case. It's like this false idea of power. 44 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 3: It's power and respect as a result of people fearing 45 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 3: you rather than sort of truly respecting you for your. 46 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 1: Values and your morals exactly. 47 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 3: And I think you know, this notion of control, status, power, 48 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:37,080 Speaker 3: we all need to feel like we have control in life, right. 49 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:40,640 Speaker 3: Control is a fundamental need that we all have as people. 50 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 3: But if some people don't feel like they have control 51 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 3: in certain areas of their life, maybe at home we 52 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 3: don't feel like we have control, or in certain aspects 53 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 3: of our life we feel out of control, then we 54 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 3: might try and find that control in other ways by 55 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 3: asserting power and dominance over other people in our life. 56 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:00,080 Speaker 1: So true, there's so much more going on beneath the 57 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 1: surface that we actually don't know. Yeah, yeah, so are 58 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:05,799 Speaker 1: the other to white people bully? 59 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 3: Well, I guess. Hand in hand with this sense of 60 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 3: power and control, we often see that people who bully 61 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:17,079 Speaker 3: might have low self esteem and kind of low self worth, 62 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:20,799 Speaker 3: negative thoughts and feelings about themselves. And typically if someone 63 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 3: has low self esteem, they might do one of two things. 64 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 3: So they might try and put themselves above other people, 65 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 3: or they might sort of undermine other people. So this 66 00:03:30,920 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 3: might be sort of big noting themselves talking about how 67 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 3: great they are, or it might be trying to put 68 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 3: other people down so that they can feel better about themselves. 69 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 3: So with bullying, we see that these bullies might be 70 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 3: quite mean and critical towards other people as a way 71 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 3: to make themselves feel better about themselves. And this isn't 72 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 3: too far removed from that kind of need for power 73 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 3: and control, right If I need to assert power and 74 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 3: control over someone else, obviously I don't feel good about something, 75 00:03:57,440 --> 00:04:00,080 Speaker 3: either within myself or within my life, So they sort 76 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 3: of go hand in hand. 77 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 1: True, And it essentially kind of feels like bullies are 78 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 1: putting on a bit of a mass, right, like in 79 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 1: a way of coping with what's actually going on beneath 80 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 1: the surface too. 81 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, And I guess beyond that, we of course 82 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 3: have sort of a category of people who maybe have 83 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:20,920 Speaker 3: those very cold, callous traits where we're sort of now 84 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 3: looking along a line of maybe psychopathy, right where people 85 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 3: are really just sort of mean because they lack empathy. 86 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:31,279 Speaker 3: But that's probably a smaller portion of the percentage of 87 00:04:31,280 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 3: people who bully others compare to those who have these 88 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 3: feelings around low self worth and a desire for control 89 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 3: and power. 90 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 1: So who tends to be the target of bullies. 91 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:47,720 Speaker 3: Unfortunately, People who might display I want to say weakness, 92 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 3: weakness to the bullies, but not weakness in terms of 93 00:04:50,280 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 3: how you or I would describe weakness. People who maybe 94 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 3: have a softness to them, people who are maybe more 95 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 3: passive in nature, people who are less likely to fight 96 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 3: back to a bully, but also people who perhap apps 97 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 3: take on some sort of minority status by way of 98 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 3: who they are, or people who are quote unquote trouble makers. 99 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 3: There may be someone who might be a risk of 100 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:19,039 Speaker 3: stirring the pot, and the person who's the bully doesn't 101 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 3: want that person to kind of rise up or speak up, 102 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 3: so they will bully them to sort of keep them 103 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 3: in their place. 104 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:28,280 Speaker 1: That's a really interesting subgroup because I mean I thought 105 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 1: a lot of the time it would be more of 106 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 1: the vulnerable minority groups. But also thinking about that other 107 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: archetype around someone that is going to speak up, it's 108 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 1: seen as a threat, right. 109 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, and again on both sides. Right, someone who 110 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 3: is maybe passive and doesn't fight back could be a target, 111 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 3: but on the flip side, someone who does react. You know, 112 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 3: often when we talk about kids and we coach kids 113 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 3: who are being bullied, one of the key things we 114 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 3: sort of say to them is try not to react, 115 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 3: just walk away from the bully, because it sometimes is 116 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:01,280 Speaker 3: that rise and that reaction that actually fuels the person 117 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 3: who is bullying to do it. Even more. 118 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:05,920 Speaker 1: When we think of bullying with think of playing out 119 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 1: in school, workplaces, maybe even community groups. But there's also 120 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:16,280 Speaker 1: online bullying, and often it can be even more brutal, right. 121 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 3: Totally, I think in many ways it can be more 122 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 3: brutal and more damaging and more far reaching. Right Like, 123 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 3: if we think about online bullying, so many more people 124 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:32,479 Speaker 3: have access to us online than in our day to 125 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 3: day life. If I go to school and I get bullied, 126 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 3: I may be bullied by you know, some of the 127 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:39,599 Speaker 3: thirty kids that are in my class, or the hundred 128 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 3: kids that are in my year, or you know, even 129 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 3: a thousand kids that are in the school. But if 130 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 3: I decide to post on social media and I have 131 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 3: a public account, I could be bullied by anyone in 132 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 3: the whole world who sees it. So the potential for 133 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:56,720 Speaker 3: bullying is so much larger than what it is in 134 00:06:56,760 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 3: real life. And on top of that, the potential for 135 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 3: the bullying to sort of go viral or to spread 136 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 3: is also so much greater than it is in real life, 137 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 3: and the psychological damage that can result from this is 138 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 3: quite significant. 139 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 1: It's really interesting because it gets me thinking about back 140 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: in the days when you know, we were at school Millennials, 141 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 1: and how we were really on the edge of social 142 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: media and how I think in a way we missed 143 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: the online bullying era. And it's like, wow, we are 144 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: in this time where so many more people feel like 145 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 1: they can have more of a voice online, and I 146 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 1: like to call them those keyboard warriors, where you know, 147 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: it's where people can have an outlet to let it 148 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 1: all out, but it can be so damaging. 149 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 3: The online disinhibition effect is what you're referring to. It's 150 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 3: like this ability for people to be less filtered, less 151 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 3: inhibited when they are commenting or posting online. Now, this 152 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 3: can have pros and cons, right, because we see a 153 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 3: lot of positives where people very vulnerably share parts of 154 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 3: their lives and their story that maybe they wouldn't have 155 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 3: felt the ability to do in their day to day life. 156 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 3: So we have great pros from this disinhibition effect, but 157 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 3: the con is that we see more people being mean 158 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 3: and cruel and trolling people where they wouldn't necessarily do 159 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 3: that in real life. There's this sense of anonymity. I 160 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 3: can act online without consequences, and I can be somewhat anonymous. 161 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 3: I can go on that celebrities profile and write a 162 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 3: really mean comment about how they look, and I feel 163 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:37,679 Speaker 3: a little bit invisible because I'm just one of thousands 164 00:08:37,719 --> 00:08:40,359 Speaker 3: of people maybe commenting on that post. So there's this 165 00:08:40,479 --> 00:08:44,479 Speaker 3: anonymity or feeling of anonymity with commenting online. But it's 166 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:46,119 Speaker 3: not to say that the person on the other end 167 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:48,959 Speaker 3: is still not receiving that and feeling the impact of it. 168 00:08:49,119 --> 00:08:51,719 Speaker 1: And it gets me thinking about, you know, being on 169 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:55,599 Speaker 1: the receiving end of bullying, right, Like the impact is massive, 170 00:08:55,839 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 1: Like what are the consequences for someone who has been bullied? 171 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 3: They can be very far reaching, both psychologically but also physically. 172 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:06,080 Speaker 3: We know the body the mind are connected, right, So 173 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 3: the main thing that we often see is this internalization 174 00:09:12,319 --> 00:09:15,999 Speaker 3: of the bully's voice. Particularly if someone has been exposed 175 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 3: to repeated patterns of bullying, they may unfortunately start to 176 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:23,639 Speaker 3: internalize some of those real negative messages that they've heard 177 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 3: from the bullies. We may see that there's greater feelings 178 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:30,679 Speaker 3: of hopelessness and helplessness. We might notice that there's greater 179 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 3: sadness or greater anxiety. Maybe they're now worried about going 180 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:38,320 Speaker 3: to the workplace or going out in a social group 181 00:09:38,439 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 3: or posting online if the bullying is happening online, so 182 00:09:41,199 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 3: we see an anxiety and potential avoidance that can come 183 00:09:44,439 --> 00:09:48,679 Speaker 3: with that. But in addition to that, physically, we know 184 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 3: that the more stress we experience, the more we activate 185 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 3: cortisol in our body, which is the stress hormone, and 186 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 3: prolonged cortisole activation can lead to all sorts of physical 187 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:02,759 Speaker 3: health difficulties for us. We see sleep disturbances for people 188 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:06,479 Speaker 3: who've experienced bullying, chronic headaches, all these sorts of physical 189 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 3: impacts as well. 190 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, it really is mental and physical impacts, isn't it. Yeah. 191 00:10:13,359 --> 00:10:15,559 Speaker 1: We'd all like to say that, you know, when we 192 00:10:15,599 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 1: see bullying in the workplace or in circles that you're in, 193 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 1: that you want to intervene, But sometimes it can be 194 00:10:22,319 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 1: hard to even take that first step, right, It. 195 00:10:25,119 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 3: Can be, It absolutely can be, And I think we 196 00:10:28,079 --> 00:10:31,319 Speaker 3: would ideally all like to think that we would intervene 197 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:35,199 Speaker 3: if we saw someone struggling or if they were being bullied. 198 00:10:35,199 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 3: And I think if I went around and asked lots 199 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:40,079 Speaker 3: of people, would you intervene if you saw someone being bullied? 200 00:10:40,239 --> 00:10:43,199 Speaker 3: Most people would say yes. And hopefully that is true. 201 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:47,599 Speaker 3: But there is also something called the bystander effect, and 202 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 3: this explains why sometimes we might see someone in need 203 00:10:52,359 --> 00:10:56,199 Speaker 3: but we don't necessarily act. So the bystander effect is 204 00:10:56,239 --> 00:10:59,319 Speaker 3: this idea where when we see someone who is a 205 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 3: victim to something and we're in some sort of social group, 206 00:11:02,239 --> 00:11:06,479 Speaker 3: we might actually not act to help that person. So 207 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:09,559 Speaker 3: there's this sense of what we refer to as diffusion 208 00:11:09,719 --> 00:11:15,319 Speaker 3: of responsibility. So this essentially means that I think someone 209 00:11:15,319 --> 00:11:18,159 Speaker 3: else will have done something. I won't call the ambulance 210 00:11:18,199 --> 00:11:20,599 Speaker 3: if I see the accident because surely someone else driving 211 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 3: by has called the ambulance or the police already. You know. 212 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:26,759 Speaker 3: I won't intervene because surely someone else has already done it. 213 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:30,479 Speaker 3: So it's this diffusion of responsibility. But there's also something 214 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 3: called pluristic ignorance. So it's this idea that we look 215 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:38,439 Speaker 3: to other people to assess the severity of a situation. 216 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 3: So again, if I see the car accident but no 217 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 3: one else is doing anything, I can think, oh, well, 218 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:46,679 Speaker 3: it mustn't be that bad. If no one else is intervening, 219 00:11:46,719 --> 00:11:48,199 Speaker 3: if no one else is stopping to help, if no 220 00:11:48,199 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 3: one else is calling the ambulance, it mustn't be that bad, right, 221 00:11:51,119 --> 00:11:53,960 Speaker 3: And This applies to bullying. If we see someone being bullied, 222 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:56,399 Speaker 3: or we know of someone being bullied, but no one 223 00:11:56,439 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 3: else is kind of doing anything about it, we think, ah, well, 224 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 3: maybe it's actually not that bad. Maybe I would be 225 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:04,879 Speaker 3: overreacting if I were to step in and do something. 226 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 3: The third kind of feature here is the fear of 227 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:09,679 Speaker 3: social judgment. If I am the only person who steps 228 00:12:09,719 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 3: out and does something, I might worry that other people 229 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:16,639 Speaker 3: judge me and think I'm overreacting, and this bystander effect. 230 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:19,319 Speaker 3: The term has been coined based on a famous case 231 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 3: actually of a lady called Kitty, and she was living 232 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:26,399 Speaker 3: in New York. She was coming home one evening and 233 00:12:26,479 --> 00:12:30,200 Speaker 3: she was actually quite viciously assaulted outside of her house 234 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 3: and she died. And what happened is that very few 235 00:12:36,079 --> 00:12:39,959 Speaker 3: to no people actually contacted emergency services, even though there 236 00:12:39,959 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 3: were reports of them hearing that there was something happening outside. 237 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:46,759 Speaker 3: And again when they were interviewed as to why they 238 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 3: didn't do anything, it was these same reasons as to well, 239 00:12:50,079 --> 00:12:52,439 Speaker 3: I thought someone else would have done it. I assumed 240 00:12:52,439 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 3: someone else would have called the police, or no one 241 00:12:55,079 --> 00:12:57,479 Speaker 3: else was sort of doing anything, so I didn't want 242 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:00,160 Speaker 3: to be that person who sort of overreacted and did 243 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 3: something when it was actually nothing to really worry about. 244 00:13:03,479 --> 00:13:05,559 Speaker 1: What I'm hearing in all of it is that it 245 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 1: is taking that courage, that leap of trusting yourself to 246 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 1: be like, you know what, I'm going to do something 247 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:13,840 Speaker 1: even though other people aren't. And that can be really 248 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:18,679 Speaker 1: hard because we're really conditioned to respond by the way 249 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 1: that other people are showing up in an environment too. 250 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:24,199 Speaker 1: So it's a tough one absolutely. I think in all 251 00:13:24,239 --> 00:13:25,759 Speaker 1: of this as well, because I know we've talked a 252 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:28,559 Speaker 1: lot about why bully's bully and the impact it can 253 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: have on the other person, but I think it's also 254 00:13:30,959 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: really important to hold compassion for the bully too, especially 255 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 1: with some of those reasons around. There's so much going 256 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 1: on in the inner world that we don't know, and 257 00:13:39,479 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 1: in a way it kind of reminds me of the 258 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:45,599 Speaker 1: episode we did two seasons ago under the narcissism episode, 259 00:13:45,599 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 1: and how you know, it's so easy to look at 260 00:13:49,199 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 1: the negatives in narcissism, which is completely valid, you know 261 00:13:52,319 --> 00:13:55,719 Speaker 1: it's not okay, but also holding it with compassion to 262 00:13:55,719 --> 00:13:58,119 Speaker 1: to know that they're going through their process. 263 00:13:58,319 --> 00:14:02,679 Speaker 3: Absolutely, it's this notion that we can empathize with someone's 264 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 3: internal experiences, with that feeling of low self esteem, with 265 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 3: the feeling of needing control and power, whatever it is. 266 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 3: We can empathize with those internal experiences, but it doesn't 267 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:14,959 Speaker 3: mean we agree with. 268 00:14:15,119 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 1: The bullying totally. So if you've experienced bullyan and you've 269 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 1: internalized those messages, like, where do you start with that 270 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 1: healing process? 271 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 3: How to undo the damage that bullying can do to 272 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 3: our own inner voice? Yeah, first part is always becoming 273 00:14:38,119 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 3: aware of what thoughts are mine and what thoughts are 274 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 3: actually the voice of the bully. What's my sort of 275 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 3: true self saying to me versus? What is that voice 276 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 3: saying that's taken all its messaging from the people that 277 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:56,359 Speaker 3: have been mean to me and have hurt me along 278 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 3: the way. And when we think about this very critical 279 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:01,519 Speaker 3: voice that develops as a result of bullies, it might 280 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 3: not be just one person's voice. It might be that 281 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 3: we we've had multiple negative experiences or multiple experiences with bullying, 282 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 3: and we've kind of accumulated all those voices into one, 283 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 3: and so we developed this really mean inner critic that's 284 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 3: quite harsh to us. So the first part is really 285 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 3: about acknowledging and recognizing those voices, those thoughts, they're not mine. 286 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 1: I really love this one because I actually did an 287 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 1: exercise on this for myself. I was going through old 288 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 1: journals the other day, which is really funny. I wasn't 289 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 1: planning that for this episode, but I had written down 290 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 1: all the things that previous people have said to me 291 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 1: that have really hurt me, and then I actually rewrote, 292 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 1: like I reframed those sentences, so it's like, blah blah 293 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: said this, now I say this, And it was just 294 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 1: a really nice way to literally reclaim my voice because 295 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 1: I had given that other person's voice so much power 296 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: over me, and it was my truth. And it took time, right, Like, 297 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 1: it's not something you're just going to believe over time, 298 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: but you're setting that intention in. 299 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, I love the reframe. Right once you can 300 00:16:08,119 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 3: acknowledge that this is what someone else has said to me, 301 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 3: you know, this is the comment they made, How can 302 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 3: I reframe this in a way that's going to be 303 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 3: more empowering and impactful for me to work with. I 304 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 3: love that you did that. I love that you went 305 00:16:20,119 --> 00:16:20,999 Speaker 3: through your old journalism. 306 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: I just randomly looked it up. 307 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,399 Speaker 3: I'm like, ah, I used to say that, Yeah, And 308 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 3: it's a process, right, Changing that kind of inner voice 309 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 3: that might develop as a result of bullies is not 310 00:16:32,239 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 3: going to happen overnight, but it's a process and it 311 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:40,399 Speaker 3: takes practicing reframing those thoughts. I also really encourage people 312 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 3: to think about the internal qualities that they have that 313 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:48,639 Speaker 3: they see as strengths for themselves. Right, so we can 314 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 3: get into the tug of war with what that bully 315 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 3: said and what they didn't say, and how true or 316 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 3: untrue it was, But if people can start to reflect 317 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:59,759 Speaker 3: on what internal qualities they have, and I say internal qualities, 318 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 3: because no one can take those away from us. You know, 319 00:17:02,239 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 3: if we lose a job, if we lose a relationship, 320 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 3: if we lose a friendship, those things can sort of end. 321 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 3: But no one can take away my own personal internal 322 00:17:11,159 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 3: qualities that I feel are really valuable. So actually reflecting 323 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 3: on those and building that self compassionate voice that's really 324 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 3: kind but also really wise and can recognize the personal 325 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 3: strengths that we have. So these are things like recognizing 326 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 3: your own kindness, the fact that you're caring, the fact 327 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:35,680 Speaker 3: that you might be empathetic, the fact that you might 328 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:39,399 Speaker 3: be a really great problem solver, the fact that you 329 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 3: might be a really creative spirit. Whatever it is, these 330 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 3: internal qualities you have, no one can take them from you. 331 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 3: No bully can take those from you. So leaning into 332 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:49,959 Speaker 3: those qualities. 333 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:53,879 Speaker 1: So do you suggest anything for the bully, like for 334 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 1: them to start their healing process or can they just 335 00:17:56,639 --> 00:17:57,239 Speaker 1: not be helped? 336 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 3: Oh, they can be helped, absolutely, Yeah. And you know, 337 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:04,479 Speaker 3: I think people often know when they've been unkind to others. 338 00:18:04,679 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 1: Really, yeah, there's some level. 339 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 3: It doesn't just happen. I don't just like fall onto 340 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:12,239 Speaker 3: social media and like magically type out me in comments 341 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,399 Speaker 3: without realizing it, right, you know, we know we do it, 342 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 3: And you know, there's obviously different degrees of being unkind 343 00:18:19,879 --> 00:18:24,119 Speaker 3: to people, But people who are unkind know when they're 344 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 3: doing it a lot of the time, and if it's 345 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 3: an accident, they're usually pretty open and willing to receive feedback. 346 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 3: So if someone is engaging in patterns where they're being 347 00:18:33,399 --> 00:18:37,399 Speaker 3: unkind to others, I would really ask them to reflect 348 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:41,879 Speaker 3: on the question of what need am I trying to 349 00:18:41,919 --> 00:18:45,679 Speaker 3: fulfill for myself by doing this? What is this actually 350 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:49,440 Speaker 3: giving me? Is it giving me that sense of power? 351 00:18:49,639 --> 00:18:51,639 Speaker 3: Is it giving me a sense of control. Do I 352 00:18:51,639 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 3: feel superior when I speak to someone in this way 353 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:57,679 Speaker 3: or comment on their post in this way? Do I 354 00:18:57,679 --> 00:19:00,120 Speaker 3: feel better about myself? Do I feel like I'm kind 355 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:02,959 Speaker 3: of top dog if I do that? What need is 356 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:06,120 Speaker 3: that filling within you? If you can identify that, then 357 00:19:06,159 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 3: you can find healthier ways to fulfill that same need? 358 00:19:15,159 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 3: Yarb bearb Hearb, I'm palving a serious crisis. BRB having 359 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 3: a crisis. 360 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:24,159 Speaker 1: We've reached that time in our episode where we answer 361 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:26,719 Speaker 1: a question or dilemma from one of you. How but 362 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:30,239 Speaker 1: are you happy? Listeners? Anastasia? This one comes from an 363 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:31,239 Speaker 1: anonymous source. 364 00:19:32,679 --> 00:19:34,639 Speaker 4: I never thought bullying would be something I'd have to 365 00:19:34,639 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 4: deal with as an adult, but here I am. There's 366 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 4: someone at work who constantly is putting me down, whether 367 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 4: it's snyde comments in meetings, undermining my ideas, or just 368 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:45,440 Speaker 4: general coldness that makes me dread going in. I try 369 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:47,880 Speaker 4: to brush it off, but it's wearing me down. Sometimes 370 00:19:47,879 --> 00:19:49,880 Speaker 4: I question if I'm being too sensitive or if I'm 371 00:19:49,919 --> 00:19:52,680 Speaker 4: just imagining things, but then it happens again. I don't 372 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 4: want to cause drama or make things worse, but I 373 00:19:54,679 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 4: also don't want to keep feeling this way, I'm stuck 374 00:19:57,600 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 4: between wanting to stand up for myself and fearing it 375 00:19:59,960 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 4: might backfire. How do you deal with someone who's bullying 376 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 4: you when you're in adult especially at work. 377 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 1: That's so hard, bullied in the workplace because you can't, 378 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:13,120 Speaker 1: like you got to work to make a living, right, 379 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:14,239 Speaker 1: you can't avoid that. 380 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:18,639 Speaker 3: Yeah, I actually feel like for me, this is the 381 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:23,159 Speaker 3: hardest listener question that's come through so far, because it 382 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 3: really is tricky when you're talking about this balance of 383 00:20:26,879 --> 00:20:29,959 Speaker 3: maintaining your job, because, as you said, people need to 384 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:34,959 Speaker 3: work versus feeling comfortable in the workplace and feeling safe 385 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 3: in the workplace. And by the sounds of it, this 386 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:40,639 Speaker 3: anonymous listener isn't feeling safe in their emotionally safe in 387 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 3: their workplace. I think there's something to be said for 388 00:20:43,919 --> 00:20:47,199 Speaker 3: a kind of standard approach of considering having a conversation 389 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 3: with this person, and that could be a kind of 390 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:52,879 Speaker 3: casual chat. It doesn't have to be a formal sit down, 391 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:55,359 Speaker 3: you know, why are you saying these Snyder comments to me? 392 00:20:55,879 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 3: But more of a kind of casual like, Hey just 393 00:20:57,879 --> 00:21:00,080 Speaker 3: wanted to check in, how are you going? How do 394 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:02,719 Speaker 3: you feel like we're working together. Is there anything we 395 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 3: should do difference, Is there any thing we should keep 396 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 3: doing that we feel like really working in terms of 397 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:09,439 Speaker 3: our working relationships. So you can kind of frame it 398 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 3: to be about work, but really you're sort of opening 399 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 3: up a broader conversation. But on the flip side, and 400 00:21:15,639 --> 00:21:18,640 Speaker 3: I know it's not the fault of our anonymous listener, 401 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:21,439 Speaker 3: but I think there is sometimes something to be said 402 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:26,359 Speaker 3: for trying to detach from a situation where we can't 403 00:21:26,399 --> 00:21:28,919 Speaker 3: actually change things. I mean, if you get to a 404 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 3: point where you think this workplace is not for me, 405 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:33,919 Speaker 3: I've reported it to HR, I've tried to go through 406 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 3: all the necessary steps, nothing is changing, then you might 407 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:38,919 Speaker 3: want to consider is this the right place for me 408 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,519 Speaker 3: to be? But we hope it doesn't get to that point. 409 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:45,640 Speaker 3: And so this is where I encourage some degree of detachment. 410 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 3: This person being cold, saying snide remarks says more about 411 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,159 Speaker 3: them than it does you. And I can assure you 412 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,159 Speaker 3: that if someone is coming to the workplace and taking 413 00:21:58,159 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 3: out their anger and frustration and emotions on you, it's 414 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 3: probably not about you. So if that helps going into 415 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:09,439 Speaker 3: the office holding in mind that the coldness or the 416 00:22:09,879 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 3: comments are actually not a reflection of you or maybe 417 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 3: how that person even feels about you, but more about 418 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,519 Speaker 3: how they feel about themselves and how they're dealing with 419 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 3: their own internal struggles. If you can hold that close, 420 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 3: that might help you get through the days. 421 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,879 Speaker 1: Do you think as well something that the anonymous listener 422 00:22:26,919 --> 00:22:30,200 Speaker 1: can also do, because I can imagine kind of standing 423 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:31,959 Speaker 1: up to the bully could be a lot. And you 424 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,400 Speaker 1: know you mentioned you know, talking to HR, but could 425 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 1: there be like building allies in the workplace where you 426 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:39,919 Speaker 1: have spaces to be able to talk about it or 427 00:22:40,159 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 1: is that depending on the workplace, right? 428 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 3: I think it depends on the workplace, and I think 429 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 3: it depends on the kind of relationship you have with 430 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 3: other people at work and the balance between getting support 431 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 3: versus something that might might be perceived as gossiping. Yes, 432 00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:58,719 Speaker 3: so I guess we wouldn't want a situation, but you 433 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:00,719 Speaker 3: certainly want to feel like you've got other people that 434 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 3: you can go to for support or if you've got questions, 435 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:04,679 Speaker 3: you know, you go and ask your friends at work 436 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,679 Speaker 3: instead of this person. So absolutely, building the kind of 437 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 3: team around you can be very protective. 438 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:15,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, good luck, Anonymous listener, You've got this. Anastasia can 439 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,440 Speaker 1: you give us the main takeaways from today's episode? 440 00:23:17,639 --> 00:23:17,879 Speaker 3: Yes. 441 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:18,439 Speaker 4: So. 442 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 3: First of all, people bully others for a whole range 443 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 3: of reasons, including the desire for status, power, or because 444 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 3: they have low self worth. Second, bullying online can sometimes 445 00:23:31,639 --> 00:23:35,439 Speaker 3: be much worse than bullying in person because of the 446 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 3: online disinhibition effect and how far reaching online bullying can be. Third, 447 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:44,879 Speaker 3: the consequences of bullying can be that we internalize the 448 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,959 Speaker 3: voice of the bullies and we start to be really 449 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:52,679 Speaker 3: mean to ourselves. And finally, if you've internalized the voice 450 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 3: of a bully, work on building your own self compassionate 451 00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 3: voice instead. 452 00:23:58,639 --> 00:24:00,519 Speaker 1: If you have a burning question for us, there are 453 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 1: a few ways to get in contact with us, links 454 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:03,759 Speaker 1: through the show notes. 455 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 3: And remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't 456 00:24:07,879 --> 00:24:10,639 Speaker 3: a diagnostic tool, and the advice and ideas that we 457 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 3: present here should always take into account your personal medical history. 458 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 1: Next week's episode is all about empathy, fatigue and what 459 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 1: you should do when you feel like you just can't 460 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:25,919 Speaker 1: hold space for other people's problems anymore. Very relatable. Stay 461 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 1: tuned for next week's episode. 462 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 3: The senior producer of But Are You Happy is Charlie Blackman. 463 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:36,400 Speaker 1: Executive producer is Naima Brown, and Social producer is Jemma Donaho. 464 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 3: Sound design and editing by Tina Matlov. 465 00:24:39,639 --> 00:24:42,959 Speaker 1: You can find us also on Instagram and TikTok search 466 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 1: at but Are You Happy Pod? I'm a Shany Dante. 467 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:49,879 Speaker 3: And I'm doctor Anastagia Heronus. The names and stories of 468 00:24:49,919 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 3: people discussed have been changed for the purpose of maintaining anonymity. 469 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 3: If this conversation brought up any difficult feelings for you, 470 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 3: we have links for more resources in the show notes. 471 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,359 Speaker 3: If you're wanting more immediate support, you can contact services 472 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 3: much as Lifeline or Beyond Blue. 473 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:08,720 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, See you next week. 474 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:17,199 Speaker 3: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and 475 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:19,799 Speaker 3: waters that this podcast is recorded on.