Speaker 1: Welcome to Parenting out Loud, the podcast for parents who
Speaker 1: don't always listen to parenting podcasts. Instead, we talk about
Speaker 1: kind of the news and the trends and the culture
Speaker 1: and what parents are thinking about. Amelia Lester, it's so
Speaker 1: good to see you.
Speaker 2: Hime On's I love your buttery yellow very.
Speaker 1: Entrend joining us as well today our beautiful prego clestevens
Speaker 1: she's ready.
Speaker 3: Hello. I'm like, oh, no ah, we on YouTube. That's okay,
Speaker 3: I'm used to it. I have to just block it out.
Speaker 1: You do you do? This is your life now? You
Speaker 1: flog your face for money? Yes, okay? Coming up today.
Speaker 2: If you refuse to salt your kids socks or drive
Speaker 2: them to one thousand and one extracurriculars, you might just
Speaker 2: be a beta mum. Here's why parents are suddenly embracing
Speaker 2: the label of underachiever.
Speaker 1: How quick is too quick to return to work after
Speaker 1: a baby? Well that all depends, I guess. But I
Speaker 1: want to talk about an Ossie Netbauler, who's copped a
Speaker 1: lot of flak this week for getting back on the
Speaker 1: court after ten weeks.
Speaker 3: And the low key genius parenting and grandparenting hacks we
Speaker 3: didn't notice. As kids, we didn't realize what was happening.
Speaker 2: But first one of the greatest artists of our time
Speaker 2: is copying flak for being proud of her children. This
Speaker 2: is the world we live in. Beyonce is a co
Speaker 2: chair of this year's MET gala, and she bought along
Speaker 2: to the gala her fourteen year old daughter with jay
Speaker 2: Z Blue Ivy Carter. The MET rules say, incidentally, you
Speaker 2: have to be eighteen to attend, but Beyonce wasn't the
Speaker 2: only celebrity who got an exemption there. Nicole Kidman bought
Speaker 2: her seventeen year old Sunday Rose Urban with her as well. Anyway,
Speaker 2: Beyonce was asked a question related to the theme of
Speaker 2: the gala, which was fashion is Art, and her answer
Speaker 2: was very sweet, or so I thought, Is.
Speaker 1: There one piece of art that has changed your life?
Speaker 2: I would say my children?
Speaker 3: Your children, yet more time my children. Oh yeah, the.
Speaker 2: Greatest work of barthe So. Beyonce has said similar things before.
Speaker 2: In twenty sixteen, she said that, out of everything I've accomplished,
Speaker 2: my proudest moment, hands down, was when I gave birth
Speaker 2: to my daughter Blue. So far, so good. Victoria Beckham's
Speaker 2: made similar comments. Even Hillary Clinton makes a point of
Speaker 2: describing herself on social media as a mother and a
Speaker 2: grandmother first. So I'm kind of wondering whether this should
Speaker 2: even be controversial because obviously successful.
Speaker 1: What are people saying? How is this possibly controversial? Unless
Speaker 1: you're a scientist, in which case I would see how
Speaker 1: you would say, Actually, it's not art, it's science to
Speaker 1: have a baby. What are people saying?
Speaker 2: That's not what they're mad about? Bonds. People are mad
Speaker 2: because they say Beyonce is an amazing musician and singer
Speaker 2: and songwriter and performer, and she say that she's most
Speaker 2: proud of her career. This is in the various dark
Speaker 2: corners of the Internet where people lurk and share such opinions.
Speaker 3: I think people are mad because when you watch the
Speaker 3: grabs from that Red Carpet, so many celebrities were asked
Speaker 3: for their favorite piece of art, and none of them
Speaker 3: could name a piece of art that Gigi had did
Speaker 3: one where she just goes round and round in circles,
Speaker 3: being like, oh, just you know, like original.
Speaker 2: I think it's giving Russell brand with a Bible.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, I think Beyonce could not think of a
Speaker 3: piece of art. And I think quick bloody thinking being like, Oka,
Speaker 3: my daughter good, that was was It was clutch.
Speaker 2: Also, she probably wasn't like completely with it, because whenever
Speaker 2: I take my children anywhere, I'm always like pretty distracted
Speaker 2: and worrying that they're going to make some sort of scene. Now,
Speaker 2: obviously Blue Ivy Carter is older than my children. It
Speaker 2: would be a nightmare to take a six year old.
Speaker 2: Had an eight year olds to the mcgarala.
Speaker 3: Can be clear on that fourteen year old liability?
Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, I'm pro. I'm pro what Beyonce said.
Speaker 1: I think like anyone can pick up a guitar and
Speaker 1: just go bittling them, but no one like not everyone
Speaker 1: can grow a human out of like their own tissue.
Speaker 3: I agree, agree, and I think most people would say
Speaker 3: what she said in terms of I always find it
Speaker 3: fascinating that, no matter what someone's achieved, you get to
Speaker 3: the end of your life and you'll always say it
Speaker 3: was the people.
Speaker 4: I'll say this podcast, Oh wow, thanks Amelia Poet.
Speaker 1: Okay, A big part of this job, Claire, if you're
Speaker 1: not sure, if you're not short, the remit is here
Speaker 1: today is we bring often important cultural phrases from the
Speaker 1: Internet and famously Stacy Hicks, who's not here today. She
Speaker 1: brought six seven to this show month before it hit
Speaker 1: the school yard.
Speaker 2: I got to tell my children about six seven and
Speaker 2: then regret it. Yep.
Speaker 1: And then, infamously, a few weeks ago, Amerelya brought the
Speaker 1: phrase low canuinely, which has not hit a single school
Speaker 1: yard or anything so far. So we've got one hit,
Speaker 1: we've got one fail. Now it's my turn to bring one,
Speaker 1: if I may, I present to you both from the
Speaker 1: comments in TikTok and from the comments in Instagram, you
Speaker 1: the birthday? Yeah, okay, I seeing this?
Speaker 2: Is this just a way of saying happy birthday?
Speaker 1: No? No, oh, Claire, you know it. She knows it.
Speaker 2: I know it.
Speaker 3: I'm young and hip and cool and down with the kid.
Speaker 2: I think Claire spends a lot of time on TikTok.
Speaker 3: I spend way too much time on tik So.
Speaker 2: What is it? Tell me?
Speaker 1: Basically, you're the main character. Hooray for you. Everyone's so
Speaker 1: happy that you're here because you're like the main event.
Speaker 1: Is that, right, Claire?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Okay? Good?
Speaker 3: And so apparently it came It's come from a song
Speaker 3: by Han x Ho. I don't know who that person is.
Speaker 3: But it's a song called Birthday Girl, and the lyrics
Speaker 3: are like she eat she the birthday, and then there's
Speaker 3: a pause and he says girl. So it's like she
Speaker 3: eats she the birthday, she's eating cake, or I think
Speaker 3: like she eat in like a she slayed.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And then apparently there are variations of this. It's
Speaker 3: a whole language because it's like, you didn't get the joke.
Speaker 3: You the after party, you behind you, the belated birthday,
Speaker 3: You're a mess, You're the confetti. Oh okay, Yeah, you
Speaker 3: should start talking to your kids like that, both of you. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I'd appreciate it.
Speaker 1: So when Stacy sent through her holiday picks to us,
Speaker 1: we said, you look so happy and he looks so great.
Speaker 1: We should have said you to birthday.
Speaker 3: She would have loved that.
Speaker 1: A little gear change. Now, there's a bounce back story
Speaker 1: that came out this week that I wanted to talk
Speaker 1: about with you both today because Paige Hadley she's, if
Speaker 1: you don't know, an Australian netballer. She's former vice captain
Speaker 1: of the Australian Diamonds. She plays for the Swifts and
Speaker 1: she returned to the court last weekend fittingly on Mother's Day,
Speaker 1: ten weeks after the birth of her first child, Tully No.
Speaker 2: Ten weeks ten.
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah. So, first of all, congratulations to Paige Hadley,
Speaker 1: Congratulations to the Swifts. Like when sporting teams have a baby,
Speaker 1: the baby becomes part of the law. It's just a
Speaker 1: lovely thing. But I think what makes this interesting is
Speaker 1: that the range of reactions that we saw to a
Speaker 1: bounce back story. A lot of people were saying, wow,
Speaker 1: like that is amazing, congratulations that you're phenomenal. There was
Speaker 1: a lot of.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: The pressure just never ends on women, like this is
Speaker 1: a pressure cooker situation. She feels she has to go
Speaker 1: back to work. You know, time is finite, especially when
Speaker 1: you're a sports person, so imagine the pressure she's under
Speaker 1: to get back on the court. And then there was
Speaker 1: a lot of people who said, get off the court
Speaker 1: and go and spend time with your baby. I just
Speaker 1: wanted to bring it today and say, why what is
Speaker 1: it about bounceback stories that make people feel so viscerally invested?
Speaker 1: What is it about a woman going back to work
Speaker 1: after ten weeks that gets people with big feelings?
Speaker 3: We really do see it as a personal affront, like
Speaker 3: that her going and playing netball says something about me
Speaker 3: as a postpartum woman. And I'm really interested in this
Speaker 3: because there's been commentary even in the last few months
Speaker 3: about Margo Robbie and how she went and filmed Wuthering
Speaker 3: Heights when she was postpartum and she doesn't really talk
Speaker 3: about motherhood or she kind of is unmarked by having
Speaker 3: become a mother in recent years, and some people find
Speaker 3: that unfair and disingenuous and dishonest, and I just think
Speaker 3: it's bizarre that we can't accept that pregnancy, birth postpartum
Speaker 3: motherhood are going to be entirely different for different women,
Speaker 3: depending on who you are.
Speaker 2: But I think there is a kind of ideological battle
Speaker 2: taking place as well. Obviously, yes, that's true, women should
Speaker 2: do what's right for their bodies. But there's kind of
Speaker 2: two schools of thought, I think, in terms of how
Speaker 2: women return to both work and in these cases the
Speaker 2: public eye. On the one hand, you have a Margo
Speaker 2: Robbie who seems to have made a concerted decision not
Speaker 2: to make motherhood part of her professional identity or brand,
Speaker 2: and they're stealth mum, stealth mum, stealth mum. And then
Speaker 2: you have Paige Hadley who returns to the court on
Speaker 2: Mother's Day, it must have been aware that there's going
Speaker 2: to be speculation and discussion around that, and in a way,
Speaker 2: I think welcome to right. She was very matter of
Speaker 2: fact and open about the fact that she was returning
Speaker 2: after having a baby. I don't think you'd describe that
Speaker 2: as stealth mumbing. In fact, I think a lot of
Speaker 2: those women want to be able to talk about it
Speaker 2: so that they can kind of normalize returning to work.
Speaker 2: And I think both those camps can make an argument
Speaker 2: that what they're doing is helping other women, because the
Speaker 2: margat Robbies will say, well, what does having a baby
Speaker 2: have to do with me making a movie? And the
Speaker 2: page Hadley's will say, I want to normalize mothers being
Speaker 2: out there in the world and engaging at the highest
Speaker 2: levels in their professional capacity. So I think there is
Speaker 2: an ideological strain to it, because you kind of unfortunately,
Speaker 2: any woman who has a baby is going to have
Speaker 2: to make is going to have to have to navigate
Speaker 2: that and therefore make some kind of statement, whether she
Speaker 2: wants to or not.
Speaker 1: Right once, Yeah, you can't escape it, you can't. But
Speaker 1: the double standard is really striking and that's what Paige
Speaker 1: Hadley said. She said, no one says this to my partner,
Speaker 1: so why should they say it to me? And we
Speaker 1: certainly do treat mums that choose to go back to
Speaker 1: work after a baby as a moral decision, and we
Speaker 1: treat dads completely differently, like it's a financial, responsible, a
Speaker 1: logistical thing for them. It's like we accept it on
Speaker 1: one hand and not on another. And it's just really curious.
Speaker 1: But I think the other point, the other interesting part
Speaker 1: of this is kind of what you were saying, Claire,
Speaker 1: about how it's almost never about Paige Hadley or the
Speaker 1: person that's bouncing back. It's always about us, right, Because
Speaker 1: what's curious is that even though like I read this
Speaker 1: story and intellectually I got it, I was like, great,
Speaker 1: she had a team of people around her, she was
Speaker 1: doing physio, she has support structures, she has all of
Speaker 1: this around her to enable her to return to work.
Speaker 1: So it's a really structured, sensible decision. It's her decision
Speaker 1: and all of that. There's this tiny part of me
Speaker 1: that despite all of that, thought what was I doing
Speaker 1: at ten weeks? And the answer to that is wearing
Speaker 1: an adult nappy and crying on a park bench, and
Speaker 1: I think that that's the essence of these stories. And
Speaker 1: this is why these stories travel is because people just
Speaker 1: see it as comparison. Like we live in this comparison culture.
Speaker 1: I think women are assessed all the time, from the
Speaker 1: time they're little on how they look.
Speaker 2: Like.
Speaker 1: Women are so used to being measured, right, We're measured
Speaker 1: on our bodies or our ambition in our careers, the
Speaker 1: choices we make in motherhood, and so when another woman
Speaker 1: does something that's so extraordinary as this, we can't help
Speaker 1: but compare ourselves to it. So I think that's why
Speaker 1: these stories go crazy, is because it's never about the
Speaker 1: actual person. It's just about the feelings that it kind
Speaker 1: of evokes in us.
Speaker 2: But there is also a visual element, like you mentioned
Speaker 2: the double standard for men and women, and I guess
Speaker 2: Paige Hadley mentioned that too, and that's absolutely fair. But
Speaker 2: women are the ones whose bodies have been put through
Speaker 2: this thing, and so part of what other women are
Speaker 2: doing is sort of looking to see because there's visual
Speaker 2: and physical reminders of what you've been through and you
Speaker 2: want to check where the other women are going through
Speaker 2: the same thing. I don't think that's so nefarious.
Speaker 3: But I think our anger is misplaced. Like do women
Speaker 3: Do a lot of women feel like they aren't given
Speaker 3: the grace they wish they were given postpartum?
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 3: Do a lot of women feel like there is judgment
Speaker 3: on them physically post birth? Yes? Do we feel like
Speaker 3: sometimes we're forced back into work before we're ready, or
Speaker 3: we're meant to erase all the signs that we had
Speaker 3: a baby. We feel all those things. None of those
Speaker 3: things are Paige Hadley's fault. They are patriarchy. They are
Speaker 3: a structures, an absolutely huge system that underpins the way
Speaker 3: that we live that makes us feel those things. But
Speaker 3: it is such a big reminder that everybody's experiences are
Speaker 3: entirely different. I'm this time round with pregnancy. I'm trying
Speaker 3: to work out professionally what to say yes and no
Speaker 3: to in the weeks months after birth, and it's impossible
Speaker 3: to know. And you do judge yourself because I will
Speaker 3: look around and see friends who are doing live television
Speaker 3: a few weeks after giving birth, and I think I
Speaker 3: couldn't have done that. I wasn't articulate. I don't know
Speaker 3: what I would have said. But I also think there's
Speaker 3: another element, and I don't know if either of you
Speaker 3: experienced this. But the criticism that Paige Hadley got, which
Speaker 3: was one of the veins of criticism, was she should
Speaker 3: want to be with her baby. Why she out on
Speaker 3: the netpat Court, I think there's something about giving birth
Speaker 3: that makes you more ambitious, especially in the very very
Speaker 3: very short term, where it's like, hold on one, I'm amazing.
Speaker 3: I am more incredible than I ever thought that I
Speaker 3: was physically. And two, time is finite, and I don't
Speaker 3: have all the time in the world to do all
Speaker 3: the things I want to do, so I should go
Speaker 3: out and do all of them. Yeah, And it's like
Speaker 3: there's also that experience of motherhood that I don't think
Speaker 3: we talk about enough.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that, Claire. I think this is probably
Speaker 1: two in house. But like having played basketball at that
Speaker 1: level and had I had racial spawn give birth in
Speaker 1: the year that I played with her. And there's also
Speaker 1: a transition. You know, they talk about this term matrescence,
Speaker 1: which is when you become a mother and you become
Speaker 1: a new person. And the athletes that I've watched transition
Speaker 1: through matrescns have come back with a hunger and a
Speaker 1: desire like I had never seen before. And like a poise.
Speaker 1: There's something about it that is really incredible to watch. Anyway,
Speaker 1: that's just a side note.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I think like that is something that is
Speaker 3: also a part of motherhood, and instead we see it
Speaker 3: as purely self sacrifice and there's not there's other there's
Speaker 3: other elements to it.
Speaker 1: It's that feeling of if I'm going to be away
Speaker 1: from my baby, I want to make every second count.
Speaker 1: And yeah, it's really real. It's a real thing, guys.
Speaker 3: There is the best thread on Reddit called what's something
Speaker 3: your parents or grandparents did that you now realize was
Speaker 3: low key genius parents? Such a cue And it's such
Speaker 3: a good question because you really, especially when you become
Speaker 3: a parent, you're like, oh, I know what was up
Speaker 3: that was not just that was not like under the
Speaker 3: right like you would. You're a genius. So some of
Speaker 3: the top comments were as a child, bedtime was eight,
Speaker 3: but my mom would let you leave the light on
Speaker 3: until eight thirty if and only if you were reading.
Speaker 3: And I love it because it's like you feel a
Speaker 3: little bit naughty like staying up till late thirty, but
Speaker 3: it's like your reading, which is exactly what your parent
Speaker 3: wants you to do. There was another one that said
Speaker 3: I was a worrisome and often scared child, and my
Speaker 3: mum would manage my fear of bugs by telling me
Speaker 3: that any bug I pointed out to her was a
Speaker 3: baby bug. Baby spiders in the basement, baby bees outside,
Speaker 3: even baby worms in the ground. I immediately lost my
Speaker 3: fear of them, as I thought they were just little
Speaker 3: babies whose parents were gone.
Speaker 2: Okay, but I don't think this person lives in Australia,
Speaker 2: because if you pointed out a huntsman and said that
Speaker 2: was a baby, I would be more scared.
Speaker 3: Yeah, or a baby snake. Oh, it's a baby snake,
Speaker 3: and you go. I think children are so obsessed with bugs.
Speaker 3: They're so obsessed with bloody and that is very, very cute.
Speaker 3: There's another one that says my mum instilled a desire
Speaker 3: to learn as a very young child. I would ask
Speaker 3: her questions like how do birds fly? Or why is
Speaker 3: the sky blue? She would respond, I don't know. Let's
Speaker 3: stop by the library. Such good parenting and grab a
Speaker 3: book on the topic. And she would then ask me
Speaker 3: over the next few days, so how do birds fly?
Speaker 3: And I would go off the fifteen minutes on all
Speaker 3: the new facts I learned about birds, even beyond the flying.
Speaker 1: Oh no, go away a pre mobile phone.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, Now I'd be like ask chat JP
Speaker 3: to a mate.
Speaker 1: I tell my kids to ask Google all the time,
Speaker 1: just ask the speaker. Yes, that's bad parenting.
Speaker 3: Do you guys have any that your parents or grandparents
Speaker 3: would do that you've just realized?
Speaker 2: A genius one popped into my head, which is that
Speaker 2: whenever I had trouble getting to my mom said, oh, look,
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter, because just being in bed and being
Speaker 2: still and resting your body is just as good as sleeping.
Speaker 2: And now I realize how science back to that strategy
Speaker 2: was because I was talking to a sleep expert recently
Speaker 2: and she told me that the worst thing you can
Speaker 2: do if you can't get to sleep is panic. Ah,
Speaker 2: And she was like, look, I'd rather you just like
Speaker 2: watch an episode of Friends and relax than like lying
Speaker 2: in bed tossing and turning. And I feel like what
Speaker 2: my mother was doing by saying that was just dialing
Speaker 2: down the anxiety so that I could get to sleep.
Speaker 3: Oh, they're so clever, the instincts that the parents have.
Speaker 3: I remember growing up, my nan lived with us until
Speaker 3: we were teenagers, and Mum would always say, I'll go
Speaker 3: go check out. When we got home from school, she'd say,
Speaker 3: go check on Nan, Go tell Nan about your day,
Speaker 3: keep Nan company. It never occurred to me that Nan
Speaker 3: was like caring for us, that she was babysitting.
Speaker 2: Up framing that I'm going to steal. Is that like
Speaker 2: because you felt important? Yeah?
Speaker 3: I was like, I guess I'll just you know, be
Speaker 3: a good person again. Go hang out with Nan, listen
Speaker 3: to one of her crazy stories. And next minute I'm like, Oh,
Speaker 3: that's how my mum got everything done when she had
Speaker 3: four kids under two and a half, and she was
Speaker 3: able to cook and clean and work and everything. It
Speaker 3: was very very clever.
Speaker 1: Mine's very basic but also genius is that when we
Speaker 1: were kids, we would constantly try and find the Christmas presents,
Speaker 1: Like we would go ransacking through the house trying to
Speaker 1: find where they were hidden. And my mum hid them
Speaker 1: in the box that the Christmas tree came in. Oh,
Speaker 1: because no one's going to look like there's like a
Speaker 1: giant box that it comes in. And they were all
Speaker 1: in there, and I have stolen it for myself. Thank you.
Speaker 3: You'd never look. You never look. Their most boring.
Speaker 2: Yes, do you play fast and loose about your kids
Speaker 2: safety on playground equipment? Maybe you chuck all the kid
Speaker 2: socks into a basket and have them pick out two
Speaker 2: each day, whether or not they match, just so you
Speaker 2: don't have to sort them. Or when your kid complains
Speaker 2: constantly about an extracurricular activity that you were dragging them to,
Speaker 2: you just stop taking them, let them drop it. These
Speaker 2: are all signs that you might be what the Wall
Speaker 2: Street Journal this week called a beta mom. Can you
Speaker 2: translate that for me, Claire into Australian parlance?
Speaker 3: A beta mom, beta mom?
Speaker 2: Thank you. The journal says that after decades where the
Speaker 2: dominant expectation for high achieving parents was to kind of
Speaker 2: intensively helicopter, a new generation of mums is saying enough already.
Speaker 2: They are reclaiming date night, they are saying no to
Speaker 2: schlepping to seventeen different after school activities, and they are
Speaker 2: making peace with dirty dishes in the sink. And the
Speaker 2: journal says that these little acts of giving up and
Speaker 2: giving in are the beginnings of a low key feminist revolution,
Speaker 2: which I'm here for mom's. I found this article kind
Speaker 2: of confronting for reasons I want to unpack later. But
Speaker 2: I immediately thought of you as what I think of as
Speaker 2: a Taipei parent. I'm dying to know what you thought
Speaker 2: of it.
Speaker 1: Oh, I think beta mums or Beata mums is what
Speaker 1: happens when millennial mums burn out, Like this is a normal,
Speaker 1: natural correction to the parenting that we've been trying to do.
Speaker 1: Because when I read this, I thought it made complete
Speaker 1: sense to me. I wish I was a Beata mum.
Speaker 1: We have a generation of kids who have been overparented,
Speaker 1: and anxiety rates are through the roof. We have a
Speaker 1: generation of parents who are all burnt out and who's
Speaker 1: also anxiety rates are through the roof. No one is
Speaker 1: having a good time in the way this is going.
Speaker 1: Gentle parenting hasn't worked. Snowplow parenting hasn't worked. Helicopter parenting
Speaker 1: has not worked. What's left just drop the bundle and
Speaker 1: just opt out. And so when I read this, I sighed,
Speaker 1: and I thought, yes, this is this is the natural
Speaker 1: correction that we actually need. Because if you read the research,
Speaker 1: and I know, don't don't snooze on me, But like
Speaker 1: all these experts are saying this is what kids need,
Speaker 1: they need less intensive parenting. They need to take more risks,
Speaker 1: they need to build resilience in independence, and the way
Speaker 1: to do it is like take your hands off the wheel,
Speaker 1: parents take them off. And so I love that all
Speaker 1: these mums are doing that, but I don't think it's
Speaker 1: a feminist reclamation. I think it's that we're all burnt
Speaker 1: out and it's like, we cannot keep this machine up anymore.
Speaker 3: My reaction to this was, don't we all become beata mums?
Speaker 3: I think we all start as outfit, being like I'm
Speaker 3: going to be absolutely perfect earth mother, Like we all
Speaker 3: have that for like about twenty five seconds and then
Speaker 3: realize it's not possible. But I think this made me
Speaker 3: feel good about myself because I was like, I have
Speaker 3: a lot of I have a lot of issues with myself,
Speaker 3: a lot of complaints I'd like to file, But I
Speaker 3: think I'm a beata mum, and I do think it
Speaker 3: is empowering my child. For example, at home, we have
Speaker 3: the basket, and the basket is where all the toys
Speaker 3: go in no order, and I refuse to organize them,
Speaker 3: and I refuse it. There's all this stuff about like
Speaker 3: you have to rotate toys and make sure that your
Speaker 3: child gets expelled. I'm like, no. I read something once
Speaker 3: that said the fewer the toys, the more they play.
Speaker 3: I don't know if that's true, but I'm going by that.
Speaker 3: But the fact that the basket is chaos means that
Speaker 3: Matilda can pack away her own toys because there's no order.
Speaker 3: I'm not upset she can. We no longer fold Matilda's clothes.
Speaker 3: They get shoved into the drawer, and therefore she can
Speaker 3: put her clothes away. She can get them in the morning.
Speaker 3: I'm not bothered. And these things. I think sometimes we're
Speaker 3: setting up household and we're setting up life in a
Speaker 3: way that isn't child friendly, because we want like an
Speaker 3: esthetic home. We want things to look nice. We want,
Speaker 3: you know, on our child's birthday. I remember Matilda's first birthday.
Speaker 3: I got her this gorgeous dress and within two seconds
Speaker 3: there was kak all over it, and I was like,
Speaker 3: this is the lesson I needed. We don't we don't try.
Speaker 3: We set the bar on the floor. It's better for mum,
Speaker 3: it's better for her. But I think it also depends
Speaker 3: on your child, because I reckon there are children who
Speaker 3: perhaps the children who are a lot better served with
Speaker 3: like stricter routine and more predictability, and that sort of
Speaker 3: thing that wouldn't respond well to the chaos of a
Speaker 3: being a mum. But my child is just as chaotic
Speaker 3: as I am, so we work really well together.
Speaker 2: I think what's interesting is Mon's you mentioned that this
Speaker 2: is sort of a pendulum response to, like a swing
Speaker 2: back from helicopter parenting or intensive parenting. The journal article
Speaker 2: has a theory as to why it's happening now, and
Speaker 2: it's quite fascinating. It turns out that when women entered
Speaker 2: the workforce in bigger numbers, and when women's labor force
Speaker 2: participation rose, guess what happened at home? They started spending
Speaker 2: more time with children, not less.
Speaker 1: Oh right, because of the guilt factor.
Speaker 2: Because of the guilt factor, and also because they were
Speaker 2: high achieving they and they lived in a society where
Speaker 2: they thought, well, I want my kids to be high
Speaker 2: achieving and have good jobs too, so I'm going to
Speaker 2: have to really make sure they do their homework and
Speaker 2: go to their violin lessons and achieve in school. So
Speaker 2: then what happened was a whole generation of women really
Speaker 2: did burn out. Mons. I think you're right on that
Speaker 2: and then what's happening now is the economy is volatile.
Speaker 2: AI may or may not be coming for white collar jobs,
Speaker 2: and these same high achieving women in the same high
Speaker 2: achieving cohort are looking around going there are no guarantees anymore.
Speaker 2: If my son or order goes to their violin lessons
Speaker 2: every week, and if they get straight a's in school
Speaker 2: and get into their top university choice, maybe that doesn't
Speaker 2: even set them up for success because we don't know
Speaker 2: what will be needed, what skills will be valued in
Speaker 2: the new world that's emerging now. So that's the theory
Speaker 2: as to why this is happening. Now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's dystopian, but I had the same thought. I'm
Speaker 1: playing Game of Life with my kids at the moment.
Speaker 1: Have you heard of this game? They? Oh, my god, okay,
Speaker 1: hard Pass. They found it in an op shop. I
Speaker 1: was like, that sounds cool. It's this game where you
Speaker 1: have to roll the dice and you play life, so
Speaker 1: you have to get a college degree before you can
Speaker 1: earn good money, and then you go around the track
Speaker 1: and you get married and you have to have babies,
Speaker 1: and then you save money and you retire, and every
Speaker 1: time we play it, I just think, what, this is
Speaker 1: not the model law of success anyway?
Speaker 2: Is there negative gearing in this game?
Speaker 1: I don't know. I never we never get that far
Speaker 1: into it because you love it, and I'm just like,
Speaker 1: but this is not how life is gonna work any anymore. Like, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it's distopen but true. And it does seem
Speaker 1: like a reaction to that.
Speaker 3: I wonder if, like the the people who are mums
Speaker 3: now have watched over the last decade or so, kind
Speaker 3: of the generation above them who were mothers and have
Speaker 3: watched how hard it's been and are sort of rebelling
Speaker 3: against that. Like I know that, I've like I still
Speaker 3: think about it. I think about it all the time.
Speaker 3: I look at mums who work here and have three
Speaker 3: kids and work really really demanding full time jobs, and
Speaker 3: I think, I don't know how you die. I think
Speaker 3: you are bloody incredible, and I don't know how your
Speaker 3: pants are clean and your hair is washed.
Speaker 2: Like, well, I think you should have clean pants? Can
Speaker 2: we just I don't.
Speaker 3: I've got I've got lunch on my parents today. But
Speaker 3: I think we've seen that and we are rebelling against
Speaker 3: that to some extent and realizing that the imperfection needs
Speaker 3: to needs to be a part of it.
Speaker 2: And that's in part because, as Mon's was getting to before,
Speaker 2: that the research does back up the fact that intensive
Speaker 2: parenting has contributed to the anxiety epidemic amongst young people.
Speaker 2: There was a new research paper that came out in
Speaker 2: Australia a couple of weeks ago which pointed to so
Speaker 2: called cocooning of kids, which means that when kids have
Speaker 2: a problem, parents tend to sort of wrap them up
Speaker 2: in greze and sort of make sure that they don't
Speaker 2: have to encounter the problem head on and that they
Speaker 2: don't have to be hurt by the problem. And the
Speaker 2: researchers were saying that that kind of cocooning does not
Speaker 2: build resilience in kids. In fact, it does the exact opposite.
Speaker 2: That said, I have some bad news because on the
Speaker 2: one hand, you've got researchers on the other hand. The
Speaker 2: top comment on the journal article is from a man
Speaker 2: called Tommy oh No, and Tommy does not approve. He
Speaker 2: does not approve. He says, you get one chance to
Speaker 2: instill the right values and a work ethic in your children.
Speaker 2: Teach them that nothing happens without hard work, and that
Speaker 2: the world owes them nothing.
Speaker 3: I say, Tommy, while you're on your phone, where are
Speaker 3: your kids?
Speaker 2: Mate? Where are your kids?
Speaker 3: Get back to them.
Speaker 1: That's not what. That's not the We're not saying beta
Speaker 1: moms don't teach their kids' good values. We're saying they
Speaker 1: don't optimize them. They don't put them in fourteen extracurricular
Speaker 1: activities that they prioritize like rest.
Speaker 2: It's a thing to prove slope from not folding a
Speaker 2: laundry to just teaching the kids that murders. Okay, you
Speaker 2: should know that monds. But for those who are not
Speaker 2: interested in Tommy and what he has to say, which
Speaker 2: I venture is probably most of the people listening to
Speaker 2: this and you want to start embracing your beta mom self,
Speaker 2: here's a fun little TikTok about some tips for how
Speaker 2: to from the pov of you have a type ce mom. Okay,
Speaker 2: so I know.
Speaker 1: She's only three much, but I think for her first
Speaker 1: birthday party it should be themed girls just want to
Speaker 1: turn one?
Speaker 4: You know, my bag, I haven't unpacked yet from spring break.
Speaker 1: I think we have extra whites in there. What do
Speaker 1: you feel is a nice way to say, do not
Speaker 1: get us any more toys?
Speaker 2: That make sounds or sing songs.
Speaker 1: So I forgot a thought of the chicken? Could you
Speaker 1: just pick some of them.
Speaker 2: Up on your way home?
Speaker 1: Oh, before you lea out, did you eat a laker
Speaker 1: from the couchhown stairs?
Speaker 2: I forgot to drive the new May What do we think?
Speaker 1: It's so good?
Speaker 2: It's so good? Mom's last question for you. You started
Speaker 2: off by saying you loved this, but as a member
Speaker 2: of the of the Christmas Moms of Australia facebook group,
Speaker 2: I feel that we can we can typecast you as
Speaker 2: perhaps not your average beta mom. Are you going to
Speaker 2: start incorporating some of these more haphazard parenting techniques into
Speaker 2: your everyday life.
Speaker 1: Yes, And in my house we call it dropping the ball,
Speaker 1: So Mom's dropped a bundle. I've dropped the But I
Speaker 1: like the repackaging of it being beta mum and that
Speaker 1: it's a trend, so I'll be using that from now on.
Speaker 1: All Right, it's time for recommendations, where we bring you
Speaker 1: the things we're watching, loving, buying, telling each other about Claire.
Speaker 1: What have you got today? I have a very toddler
Speaker 1: specific one. So I was sick of Matilda's clothes getting
Speaker 1: ruined every time she ate, because asforementioned, I'm a beta mum,
Speaker 1: so every time she ate, I was like, why is
Speaker 1: this sauce all over that brand jumper? How does this
Speaker 1: keep happening?
Speaker 3: So in summer super easy, she just eats Tholly in
Speaker 3: a nappy. However, winter not as easy. So I've rediscovered
Speaker 3: these smocks that I had when she first started solids,
Speaker 3: and they are so good for toddlers.
Speaker 2: This is beta mumming so hard, sorry.
Speaker 3: Little chomps, And so they are these smocks makes there's
Speaker 3: this mister Burns meme from The Simpsons where he's like
Speaker 3: in this gown anyway, it looks exactly like that. So
Speaker 3: full bodies mark so cute, like really soft, not stiff,
Speaker 3: and you can literally rinse it. The most important part
Speaker 3: it doesn't have that fricking little pocket. Yeah, that's so
Speaker 3: many bibs have where it's like I don't want the
Speaker 3: squishy food in the pocket for me to clear out.
Speaker 3: Bibs are also useless because surface area is a lot
Speaker 3: bigger than just under my child's chin. So these these
Speaker 3: marks amazing and also good for like craft. Not that
Speaker 3: we have done craft, but if we were a craft family,
Speaker 3: I'm sure it would be lovely for painting, et cetera.
Speaker 3: But really, says Matilda's clothes. They're about thirty dollars and
Speaker 3: you don't need ten of them. You need one and
Speaker 3: then just prints it.
Speaker 2: I'm putting it on.
Speaker 3: No, not at all, because it's quite comfortable and quite loose.
Speaker 2: Fish. That's like I need one.
Speaker 1: I'm a very messy Can I give you my bea
Speaker 1: mum alternative? Yeah, I actually did this. This is profire
Speaker 1: beta mum.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Is.
Speaker 1: I also got sick of clothes getting ruined, so I
Speaker 1: just took a tee towel and just cut a hole
Speaker 1: in it and just would plot a tea towel over them. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was afraid. I didn't sew it. I just it
Speaker 1: was just literally scissors in a tea towel. Done. But
Speaker 1: then you've got to wash it. You do you do that,
Speaker 1: you might as well be washing the clothes.
Speaker 2: Reminds me of like back in BuzzFeed days, like there
Speaker 2: was this trend of like bread in cats. You'd like
Speaker 2: take a bit of out of a slice of brand
Speaker 2: and put it over your cat's hand.
Speaker 1: It's a little bit like that was a fun time
Speaker 1: on the internet.
Speaker 3: I miss that.
Speaker 2: About the show you're recommending, because I've heard mixed things
Speaker 2: about it.
Speaker 1: Oh no, okay. So if you like Fisk and if
Speaker 1: you like Utopia, so if you like Australian comedy, I've
Speaker 1: got a new show. It's called Bad Company. It's on
Speaker 1: the ABC and the best part about it is short
Speaker 1: episodes and totally hilarious. But Anne Edmonds, who wrote it
Speaker 1: and I think may have directed it, is the star
Speaker 1: of it. And she is just so hilarious. She's just
Speaker 1: the best. It's a fun, really easy, smooth brain thing.
Speaker 2: To watch and what happens in it.
Speaker 1: So it's a it's an artistic company that she's the
Speaker 1: artistic director of. So she runs this small theater and
Speaker 1: it's in total financial ruin because she keeps putting on
Speaker 1: these like elaborate French kind of like long artistic visionary
Speaker 1: plays and the people on the board are like, Margie,
Speaker 1: you know your theater's like bankrupt. You've got to actually
Speaker 1: put on like Grease with Sonya Kruger. And then they
Speaker 1: send they second Kitty Flanagan as this kind of like
Speaker 1: straight laced financial person to come in as the CEO
Speaker 1: and like get her ship shape. So it's the classic
Speaker 1: like artistry versus finance. It's very funny. Oh what have
Speaker 1: you heard bad things?
Speaker 3: Well?
Speaker 2: I love fisks, so I've been asking everyone about it
Speaker 2: because it's almost like I don't want to watch it
Speaker 2: if it's bad, because again, I just love fisks so much.
Speaker 2: And yeah, one holy rain right, I'm gonna out her.
Speaker 2: She's she didn't like it. Oh, but I'm gonna give it.
Speaker 2: I'm going to give it a shot. The reason I'm
Speaker 2: going to give it a shot and report back here.
Speaker 3: Kitty Flunnagan can do absolutely no wrong. Is so good,
Speaker 3: is my opinion. Holly, we all.
Speaker 1: Know she's a little bit cuckoo.
Speaker 3: We don't want to say it outside of this room,
Speaker 3: but I don't trust it.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of tension between them moms. Actually there's
Speaker 2: some out loud gossip. That was a joke. Everyone, Okay,
Speaker 2: this is the most beta mom thing. I think I
Speaker 2: could recommend. Ce lest Barber has a beauty range, and
Speaker 2: I feel like Celess Barber's whole kind of vibe vibe
Speaker 2: is beta mum, and the beauty range is called Booie
Speaker 2: b o o i E.
Speaker 4: It's available at Woolies. I love a sneaky beauty Hall
Speaker 4: at Woolies. Yeah, because you can do it while you're
Speaker 4: picking up objectively boring things, but then feel like you're
Speaker 4: giving yourself a little treat.
Speaker 3: It's really fun.
Speaker 2: And she has a thing called Slient BB Cream remember
Speaker 2: BB creams what everywhere cream?
Speaker 3: I forget that.
Speaker 2: It was originally a K beauty thing, and the idea
Speaker 2: was that it was meant to do everything at once,
Speaker 2: like it was your foundation, it was your moisturizer, it
Speaker 2: was your hydrator, your illuminator, and they kind of went away,
Speaker 2: and I think that Celeste has done a good thing
Speaker 2: by bringing them back, because what this product is for
Speaker 2: is on Saturday morning, just hypothetically speaking, you do have
Speaker 2: to go to a children's sporting activity. Mons knows more
Speaker 2: about sports or the PA, but you have to go
Speaker 2: to all the park, you know that kind of thing.
Speaker 2: And it's a little bit earlier than you'd want to
Speaker 2: be out and about on a Saturday. You don't quite know.
Speaker 2: Can you get away with the tracky decks, You need
Speaker 2: to put on jeans. It's that kind of vibe. But
Speaker 2: you just want to look like a little bit more
Speaker 2: happy to be there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you don't want to look deal because it it
Speaker 3: upsets people.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and you see them recoiling from you, and
Speaker 2: you just don't want that anymore. So you put this
Speaker 2: some bb cream on and you can seriously do it
Speaker 2: with one hand without a mirror as you are running
Speaker 2: out the door shouting at your child to put his
Speaker 2: sneakers on, just because I mean, I obviously wouldn't shout
Speaker 2: at a child and tell them to what they sneakers
Speaker 2: And you're meant to walk up to them gently place
Speaker 2: a hand on their shoulder and say, have you considered
Speaker 2: putting on footwear? But you know, if you were doing that,
Speaker 2: it's a good beauty product for that kind of vibe.
Speaker 1: And is it tinted?
Speaker 2: It's yeah, it's tinted. It comes in a few different shades.
Speaker 1: It hasn't got sunscreen in it.
Speaker 2: Yeah it does. But you know, I think we all
Speaker 2: know that you're not meant to use it.
Speaker 1: Oh yes, okay, not rely on it.
Speaker 3: But it's nice, a little bit of spire exactly.
Speaker 2: It does be your in collagen and I've been saying
Speaker 2: for a long time that I need to incorporate more
Speaker 2: marine collagen into my every day and just checks that box.
Speaker 1: Yeah, lovely, Well that's all we have time for today
Speaker 1: on Parenting Out Loud, thank you for spending your time
Speaker 1: with us. If you're watching on Apple Podcasts, thank you
Speaker 1: for watching, and have a great week. Thank you very much.
Speaker 1: Clear Stevens, Thanks Thanks. Momma acknowledges the traditional owners of
Speaker 1: the land on which we have recorded this podcast.
Speaker 3: H