WEBVTT - ‘We Are So F-ed Up’: The True Cost Of Caring For A Complicated Parent 0:00:09.847 --> 0:00:14.807 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mamma Mere acknowledges 0:00:14.847 --> 0:00:17.567 the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast 0:00:17.647 --> 0:00:21.487 is recorded on. She cared for you, so now you 0:00:21.687 --> 0:00:27.287 care for her. It sounds so simple and sane, But 0:00:27.367 --> 0:00:31.767 what mother daughter relationship after a lifetime or so is 0:00:31.847 --> 0:00:36.607 simple and sane. Whose life lines up to provide just 0:00:36.767 --> 0:00:40.847 the right measurements of time, patience, and funds to be 0:00:40.887 --> 0:00:44.047 able to return what was hopefully maybe given to you 0:00:44.207 --> 0:00:48.927 at precisely the moment it's needed. Whose home has the 0:00:48.967 --> 0:00:53.447 emotional and literal space to quickly expand to the escalating 0:00:53.527 --> 0:00:56.807 needs of the person whose home you left long ago. 0:00:58.447 --> 0:01:03.087 Caring for your aging parents can be a privilege, a joy. 0:01:04.207 --> 0:01:07.767 It can be a burden, a chore. It can be 0:01:07.967 --> 0:01:13.127 all of these things at the same time. Once, hopefully, 0:01:13.287 --> 0:01:17.287 maybe they were the firmly planted legs you hid behind 0:01:17.767 --> 0:01:21.127 as you looked out at the intimidating world hostile to 0:01:21.207 --> 0:01:27.207 the young and small. Now, hopefully maybe it's you who's 0:01:27.247 --> 0:01:31.927 the protective force between them and the intimidating world hostile 0:01:32.247 --> 0:01:36.687 to the old and frail. You're the translator of scams 0:01:36.727 --> 0:01:43.007 and online everything. Medical administrative assistant advocate in infuriating systems, 0:01:43.727 --> 0:01:47.727 and likely maybe your interventions are met sometimes with rage, 0:01:48.087 --> 0:01:52.447 not grace. They've lived this long and seen so much, 0:01:53.087 --> 0:01:57.847 only to be infantilized again, learned a great deal, only 0:01:57.887 --> 0:02:00.887 to end up with the doctor turning towards you, not them, 0:02:01.367 --> 0:02:05.287 to ask about their bowel movements, their eating, their state 0:02:05.327 --> 0:02:09.647 of mind. For the waiter to address you, not them, 0:02:10.127 --> 0:02:15.447 Does he take sugar? Watching your parents, beloved or distant, 0:02:15.967 --> 0:02:19.647 diminish and fade is one of the cruelest tricks midlife 0:02:19.687 --> 0:02:24.447 has squirreled away for a slow reveal. The worry settles 0:02:24.487 --> 0:02:28.407 on your shoulders, the fear of that phone call, the 0:02:28.447 --> 0:02:31.647 fear of the fall, the fear of the moment when 0:02:31.727 --> 0:02:36.167 everything changes. Muddling through what the hell happens now that 0:02:36.247 --> 0:02:40.327 caring responsibilities have expanded is one of the complications that 0:02:40.367 --> 0:02:44.167 it's hard to discuss because this is just what families do, right. 0:02:44.487 --> 0:02:47.127 They take care of each other, They mop each other up, 0:02:47.367 --> 0:02:52.207 They defend against the worst humiliations age has in store. Yes, 0:02:52.367 --> 0:02:55.207 it is, but if you find yourself are raised in 0:02:55.247 --> 0:02:58.247 that process, then it's not only the elderly who are 0:02:58.247 --> 0:03:02.207 transported back to being young and voiceless, but you too, 0:03:03.567 --> 0:03:08.367 and yet love and duty have no end date. The 0:03:08.407 --> 0:03:11.567 great fortune of having a mum or dad, of still 0:03:11.767 --> 0:03:13.927 having a mum or dad, the kind of mum or 0:03:14.007 --> 0:03:16.127 dad you can pick up the phone to to share 0:03:16.167 --> 0:03:18.327 the manutia of your day, or the big things that 0:03:18.367 --> 0:03:20.527 are keeping you awake and the little things that make 0:03:20.567 --> 0:03:23.807 a world with someone who has carried you literally and 0:03:23.847 --> 0:03:28.367 figuratively through a lifetime or so. That's a fortune worth repaying. 0:03:29.167 --> 0:03:33.247 But airbrushing the complexity of caring to such a simple exchange, 0:03:33.887 --> 0:03:34.647 it leaves. 0:03:34.447 --> 0:03:35.447 Us all poorer. 0:03:40.567 --> 0:03:40.887 Hello. 0:03:41.527 --> 0:03:46.967 I am Holly Wainwright, and I am mid, midlife, mid family, 0:03:47.327 --> 0:03:51.887 mid Sandwich generation. Welcome to our show mid vagen X 0:03:51.927 --> 0:03:56.447 women who are anything but now. Look, I worry sometimes 0:03:56.487 --> 0:03:58.527 that I tell you that the conversations we're having on 0:03:58.607 --> 0:04:01.767 mid are extraordinary every week, and one day you might 0:04:01.807 --> 0:04:05.647 stop believing me. This is not the week to stop 0:04:05.687 --> 0:04:08.967 believing me, friends, Because of course, it's true that every 0:04:08.967 --> 0:04:11.407 why woman I get to sit down with his extraordinary. 0:04:11.567 --> 0:04:14.407 But I can honestly say that I haven't heard a 0:04:14.447 --> 0:04:17.127 conversation like the one you're about to hear between me 0:04:17.607 --> 0:04:22.327 and Caroline Baum anywhere else her story is unique and 0:04:22.367 --> 0:04:26.407 her telling of it is exquisite. It's actually a family 0:04:26.527 --> 0:04:28.727 story with a few parts, so let me unpack that 0:04:28.767 --> 0:04:32.967 bit for you. Caroline Baalum is a writer, a broadcaster 0:04:33.087 --> 0:04:35.887 and a speaker with a long list of achievements. Will 0:04:35.887 --> 0:04:37.807 put a link to Away and find out more about 0:04:37.887 --> 0:04:40.367 those and to her writings in the show notes of 0:04:40.407 --> 0:04:43.647 this episode. But the essay of Carolines that made me 0:04:43.687 --> 0:04:46.567 want to invite her on MID was about placing her 0:04:46.647 --> 0:04:49.927 mother in elder care here in Australia and what she 0:04:50.047 --> 0:04:52.967 wanted people to know about the complexities of doing it, 0:04:53.407 --> 0:04:55.807 of finding a place, of what matters in finding a 0:04:55.847 --> 0:04:58.607 good place and so on. I knew that lots of 0:04:58.647 --> 0:05:01.447 people who listen to MID are dealing with aiding parents 0:05:01.807 --> 0:05:04.927 and that this beautifully written piece of Carolines would be 0:05:05.007 --> 0:05:07.727 really useful to them, and we do talk a lot 0:05:07.767 --> 0:05:10.367 about that towards the end of this week conversation. But 0:05:10.527 --> 0:05:13.887 what Caroline and I ended up discussing is also so 0:05:14.207 --> 0:05:18.327 much more what it's like when you're aging parent or parents, 0:05:18.407 --> 0:05:22.887 like almost everyone's, are not the compliant, gentle wise, little 0:05:22.887 --> 0:05:29.407 old people of easy narrative, but sometimes complicated, difficult, angry, resentful, 0:05:29.607 --> 0:05:33.047 and hard to live with. You're going to hear about how, 0:05:33.087 --> 0:05:36.687 after Caroline's father's death, her mother invited herself to come 0:05:36.687 --> 0:05:40.127 and live with Caroline and her husband, and how complicated 0:05:40.207 --> 0:05:43.287 that was, and how Caroline and her mother ended up 0:05:43.287 --> 0:05:47.527 in therapy aged sixty and ninety respectively, to try to 0:05:47.567 --> 0:05:50.967 find a way to cohabit, about whether or not that worked, 0:05:51.327 --> 0:05:53.527 and how it worked for a while but at great 0:05:53.647 --> 0:05:57.007 cost to Caroline's wellbeing, And you're going to hear about 0:05:57.047 --> 0:06:00.727 what it's like to feel profound guilt again, something I 0:06:00.767 --> 0:06:03.167 know a lot of people feel, if they're honest at 0:06:03.247 --> 0:06:05.447 not feeling like you've done all you can to give 0:06:05.487 --> 0:06:08.527 your parent the final years you owe them. And you're 0:06:08.567 --> 0:06:11.367 going to hear about the difficult hand delt to the 0:06:11.407 --> 0:06:17.287 solo child of troubled people. It's truly an extraordinary conversation. 0:06:17.487 --> 0:06:19.927 I have not stopped thinking about it since we talked, 0:06:20.247 --> 0:06:22.207 and I hope that you are as impressed as I 0:06:22.247 --> 0:06:25.967 am at Caroline's willingness to speak with so much eloquence 0:06:26.007 --> 0:06:29.687 and honesty, as well as respect and love about something 0:06:29.727 --> 0:06:33.087 that we're supposed to think is simple doing your duty 0:06:33.167 --> 0:06:37.687 to your parent. That is actually anything, but sit down 0:06:37.687 --> 0:06:42.967 with us and listen. Caroline. You're a journalist and editor, 0:06:43.007 --> 0:06:47.007 a broadcaster who's written many many things about many many things. 0:06:47.047 --> 0:06:49.327 But the thing I want to start talking to you 0:06:49.407 --> 0:06:53.047 about today is specifically an essay that you've wrote about 0:06:53.167 --> 0:06:56.047 navigating the process of placing your mum in aged care 0:06:56.087 --> 0:06:58.247 that went kind of viral. It was very shared and 0:06:58.327 --> 0:07:01.807 talked about, certainly in my circles, and I wanted to 0:07:01.847 --> 0:07:04.367 start there today. But before we get into it, can 0:07:04.407 --> 0:07:07.847 you tell me a bit about your mum? 0:07:08.007 --> 0:07:11.807 Okay, Well, it's funny, you know, Holly. I've realized that 0:07:12.007 --> 0:07:16.087 since writing that piece, and also since writing my memoir Only, 0:07:16.167 --> 0:07:19.007 which came out about five or six years ago, often 0:07:19.047 --> 0:07:22.567 now the first question people ask me is how's your mum? 0:07:22.687 --> 0:07:26.567 And I've become defined in terms of that relationship more 0:07:26.607 --> 0:07:29.087 than anything else in my life. And I do feel 0:07:29.447 --> 0:07:32.447 quite ambivalent about that. So interesting, isn't it? It is? 0:07:32.487 --> 0:07:33.487 And it's unfavorable. 0:07:34.167 --> 0:07:37.527 No, And do you think it's because certainly the wave 0:07:37.607 --> 0:07:42.127 depicted her in what I have read. It's it's fascinating. 0:07:42.327 --> 0:07:45.167 People are fascinated by that relationship. 0:07:45.647 --> 0:07:48.927 Yeah, I suppose because it's a relationship which is so 0:07:49.287 --> 0:07:54.287 complex and shifting, and people can relate to some of it, 0:07:54.567 --> 0:07:56.767 but not necessarily all of it. And I guess the 0:07:56.847 --> 0:08:01.247 thing that really colors and defines my mother if you 0:08:01.327 --> 0:08:04.807 ask me about her, is that she's French. And when 0:08:04.847 --> 0:08:07.687 I say she's French, I would say that she's pretty 0:08:07.727 --> 0:08:14.447 well French vinegar. So she's a strong personality and quite spiky. 0:08:15.167 --> 0:08:18.287 And I guess that the defining moment in her life 0:08:18.567 --> 0:08:22.047 I now understand happened many many years ago when she 0:08:22.207 --> 0:08:26.567 was five, and she was basically orphaned as a result 0:08:26.727 --> 0:08:31.167 of domestic violence, a murder suicide in which my grandfather 0:08:31.447 --> 0:08:35.087 murdered my grandmother and then turned the gun on himself 0:08:35.127 --> 0:08:38.687 and shot himself. So my mother was five years old. 0:08:39.087 --> 0:08:44.807 She was immediately rejected by her family, as I think 0:08:44.847 --> 0:08:47.527 they called her the fruit of a damned marriage. They 0:08:47.567 --> 0:08:52.167 were conservative and religious, and they thought that this child 0:08:52.407 --> 0:08:56.167 was a sort of manifestation of the terrible shame that 0:08:56.207 --> 0:09:00.807 this murder suicide brought on their standing, and so she 0:09:00.927 --> 0:09:04.047 was fostered. She was passed around like a parcel. Some 0:09:04.127 --> 0:09:06.447 of the people who fostered her were kind, some of 0:09:06.487 --> 0:09:09.207 them were not. But basically, at the age of five, 0:09:09.767 --> 0:09:15.807 my mother felt absolutely abandoned and unloved, and because she 0:09:15.927 --> 0:09:19.287 belongs to a generation where you didn't go to therapy, 0:09:19.407 --> 0:09:22.047 you didn't talk to a professional about that, You just 0:09:22.407 --> 0:09:27.527 kept it all inside. Apparently, I've heard since from psychologists 0:09:27.647 --> 0:09:30.447 that at five that's quite an important age in terms 0:09:30.487 --> 0:09:34.327 of child development. If something earth shattering happens to you, 0:09:35.207 --> 0:09:38.287 one of your survival techniques can be to build a 0:09:38.447 --> 0:09:43.407 carapace around yourself in order to survive, where everything becomes 0:09:43.847 --> 0:09:50.167 entirely and only about you. That is the beginnings of narcissism. 0:09:50.207 --> 0:09:53.047 I know it's a very overused word now, but I 0:09:53.087 --> 0:09:57.847 would say that my mother has very strong traits that 0:09:58.087 --> 0:10:02.527 seemed to be a manifestation of a form of narcissistic 0:10:02.567 --> 0:10:03.727 personality disorder. 0:10:04.127 --> 0:10:07.567 Did you grow up knowing this story about your mum. 0:10:08.487 --> 0:10:11.927 No. A story that took precedence in my family home 0:10:12.127 --> 0:10:15.447 was my father's story, which is tragic as well, and 0:10:15.527 --> 0:10:19.607 because he told it and was more outgoing about it, 0:10:21.327 --> 0:10:24.847 my mother's story sort of was overshadowed. So my father 0:10:25.567 --> 0:10:31.047 was a Viennese Jew, and he left Vienna in nineteen 0:10:31.087 --> 0:10:33.527 thirty eight at the age of ten with his older 0:10:33.567 --> 0:10:38.247 sister as part of something remarkable called Kindertransport, and Kindertransport 0:10:38.527 --> 0:10:43.687 was the largest refugee rescue program for children ever attempted, 0:10:44.167 --> 0:10:49.287 which took Jewish children out of Hungary, Poland, etc. To 0:10:49.487 --> 0:10:52.687 get them away from the threat of the Nazis. So 0:10:52.807 --> 0:10:56.527 my grandparents in Vienna put my father and his sister 0:10:56.607 --> 0:10:58.807 on a train, told them that they were going to 0:10:58.887 --> 0:11:01.327 England on holiday and that they would join them in 0:11:01.367 --> 0:11:05.007 a couple of weeks. They were taken to a camp 0:11:05.247 --> 0:11:08.647 where they were with many many other children like themselves, 0:11:09.727 --> 0:11:14.527 and every Sunday prospective families would come and view the 0:11:14.647 --> 0:11:19.687 children to take them and adopt them. My father wore glasses. 0:11:20.247 --> 0:11:24.807 Children with glasses were not considered as desirable as children 0:11:24.807 --> 0:11:29.367 without glasses. Boys were considered less desirable than girls. My 0:11:29.727 --> 0:11:33.127 father and his sister insisted on not being separated, which 0:11:33.167 --> 0:11:34.727 meant if you took one, you had to take the 0:11:34.767 --> 0:11:37.167 other one. So they were in the camp for a 0:11:37.327 --> 0:11:40.647 long long time. Some families took them out on a 0:11:40.687 --> 0:11:44.727 Sunday and then gave them back, which must have been devastating. 0:11:45.087 --> 0:11:49.047 Eventually he landed with a family of Quakers in Yorkshire 0:11:49.087 --> 0:11:52.927 who were incredibly kind and looked after him until he 0:11:53.647 --> 0:11:56.367 graduated from university. But I think the big difference wholly 0:11:56.367 --> 0:11:58.607 between the story of my mother and my father is 0:11:59.327 --> 0:12:02.847 my father was a victim of history, a great, big 0:12:02.887 --> 0:12:06.247 sweep of history that scooped up all these children, ten 0:12:06.287 --> 0:12:11.807 thousand children, flung them into another world and another country. 0:12:11.887 --> 0:12:15.127 He did end up seeing his mother again. He managed 0:12:15.367 --> 0:12:20.207 to get the Red Cross and various other organizations to 0:12:20.287 --> 0:12:25.007 help him sponsor his mother out of Austria. She was 0:12:25.087 --> 0:12:28.567 able to follow on condition that she get work as 0:12:28.607 --> 0:12:32.247 a domestic servant. That was the rule that the British 0:12:32.247 --> 0:12:36.287 government imposed on parents who followed their children. My grandfather 0:12:36.367 --> 0:12:39.167 never made it, and it's believed that he was shot 0:12:39.447 --> 0:12:43.607 on a forced march somewhere outside ki If we don't 0:12:43.687 --> 0:12:46.367 really know the details, that's all we've got from the 0:12:46.407 --> 0:12:49.887 Red Cross from doing research subsequently. But his story is 0:12:49.967 --> 0:12:54.447 big and grand, and many other people can relate to 0:12:54.527 --> 0:12:58.287 some part of this story. My mother's story is much 0:12:58.327 --> 0:13:02.487 smaller and much more personal. And because my father loved 0:13:02.647 --> 0:13:05.207 to tell the Kinder Transport story to me to make 0:13:05.247 --> 0:13:09.167 sure that I knew what had happened and how good 0:13:09.327 --> 0:13:12.207 the Quakers were and how grateful we should be to 0:13:12.207 --> 0:13:17.527 this particular family. I never really heard my mother's story 0:13:17.647 --> 0:13:21.727 until much later. She didn't tell me anything about what 0:13:21.807 --> 0:13:25.407 had happened to her until I think I was in 0:13:25.447 --> 0:13:29.167 my twenties, and it probably wasn't until I was in 0:13:29.207 --> 0:13:32.367 my forties that I started to join the dots. And think, 0:13:33.807 --> 0:13:38.327 from what I've read about domestic violence, a murder suicide 0:13:38.367 --> 0:13:41.087 doesn't come out of the blue. So it's highly likely 0:13:41.167 --> 0:13:45.127 that my mother experienced other forms of violence at home 0:13:45.287 --> 0:13:50.087 first before this happened. Maybe my grandfather beat my grandmother, 0:13:50.247 --> 0:13:52.567 Maybe there were terrible fights at home. We don't know. 0:13:52.687 --> 0:13:56.847 My mother has complete amnesia for anything and everything that 0:13:56.927 --> 0:14:00.487 happened before the age of five, but she does think 0:14:00.567 --> 0:14:03.727 that in theory, she probably witnessed things that she has 0:14:03.807 --> 0:14:05.767 completely blocked. 0:14:06.607 --> 0:14:10.247 What would this I mean, this is an extraordinary picture 0:14:10.287 --> 0:14:12.807 to be painted of a family, and you're the solo 0:14:12.967 --> 0:14:15.727 child of that family, right, the only child as it were. 0:14:16.567 --> 0:14:19.287 What would you say your relationship with your mother was, 0:14:19.527 --> 0:14:22.367 like you know, before she came to live with you, 0:14:22.407 --> 0:14:24.087 and all the story we're going to get into. But 0:14:24.687 --> 0:14:31.407 this complicated woman, Vinegary woman, teal in your explanation through 0:14:31.447 --> 0:14:36.007 most of your adult life until you're sort of back 0:14:36.047 --> 0:14:37.047 together in that way. 0:14:37.367 --> 0:14:39.887 You know. There's a really good word for this in French. 0:14:40.447 --> 0:14:43.447 It's the word fusionelle, and it's usually used about a 0:14:43.487 --> 0:14:46.807 couple and couple of fusionelle is a couple that's kind 0:14:46.847 --> 0:14:52.847 of I suppose totally blended, maybe codependent. So I would 0:14:52.847 --> 0:14:57.407 say that my mother saw me completely as an extension 0:14:57.487 --> 0:15:00.487 of and a projection of herself. We were dressed alike 0:15:00.527 --> 0:15:05.047 in matching dresses. Right up into my adolescence. I fel 0:15:05.087 --> 0:15:10.487 into an embarrassing age. She smothered me with love and 0:15:10.527 --> 0:15:14.007 affection until I was about twelve, and then as I 0:15:14.127 --> 0:15:18.447 started to separate and individuate, there was an enormous amount 0:15:18.487 --> 0:15:22.007 of conflict between us. But I do remember. I mean, 0:15:22.007 --> 0:15:25.287 it is extraordinary the instincts that we have as children 0:15:25.367 --> 0:15:29.127 that we just ignore, but they're telling us something. I 0:15:29.247 --> 0:15:33.567 remember being a child of about seven or eight and 0:15:33.647 --> 0:15:37.607 going into a shop with my mother and introducing myself 0:15:37.647 --> 0:15:41.647 to the greengrocer and saying, I'm the mother and this 0:15:41.847 --> 0:15:48.447 is my daughter. I felt responsible for this adult, and 0:15:48.607 --> 0:15:52.687 I felt I was the adult in the relationships. Somehow, 0:15:53.047 --> 0:15:56.327 even though I didn't know the backstory, I knew this 0:15:56.407 --> 0:16:01.887 person was vulnerable and damaged and not really fully able 0:16:01.927 --> 0:16:05.087 to parent. So she smothered me with the affections she 0:16:05.207 --> 0:16:09.007 didn't get. And then the moment I started to pull 0:16:09.007 --> 0:16:15.367 away from that, we were pretty well in conflict. And also, 0:16:15.407 --> 0:16:17.567 you've got to remember the thing about being an only child. 0:16:17.647 --> 0:16:21.087 This is the really vivid image for me is it's 0:16:21.127 --> 0:16:24.967 a triangle, and a triangle to me is an awkward shape. 0:16:24.967 --> 0:16:28.567 It's all elbows. It's not the harmony of a square. 0:16:28.687 --> 0:16:32.127 It's not the sort of beautiful elegance of a circle. 0:16:32.847 --> 0:16:36.087 There's something about a triangle. I associate it with those 0:16:36.127 --> 0:16:38.287 traffic signs on the side of the road that are 0:16:38.327 --> 0:16:40.207 warning you wrong way, go back. 0:16:42.007 --> 0:16:45.887 Yes, you've built a life on the other side of 0:16:45.927 --> 0:16:49.927 the world, right, So, but your relationship was always connected. 0:16:50.167 --> 0:16:54.967 You've said you'd go back, you'd You didn't separate from 0:16:55.007 --> 0:16:56.727 each other entirely during those years. 0:16:57.287 --> 0:17:00.167 No, But it was interesting that when I came to 0:17:00.207 --> 0:17:02.367 Australia when I was twenty four, when I fell in 0:17:02.407 --> 0:17:04.687 love and married my first husband, a lot of my 0:17:04.927 --> 0:17:07.367 kind of kluey friends said, oh, you're going as far 0:17:07.447 --> 0:17:09.967 away as possible to get away from your pa. It's no, 0:17:10.047 --> 0:17:13.047 I'm not. I just happened to have fallen in love 0:17:13.087 --> 0:17:17.287 with an Australian and he misses the climate, and he's 0:17:17.327 --> 0:17:20.327 been off at a fantastic job. And I had absolute 0:17:20.647 --> 0:17:27.207 blindness about whether I was in fact fleeing and trying 0:17:27.247 --> 0:17:29.807 to make more space for myself in what was a 0:17:29.967 --> 0:17:36.007 very claustrophobic family dynamic. My parents were incredibly overprotective. As 0:17:36.007 --> 0:17:39.247 a child, I was never allowed to go for sleepovers. 0:17:39.367 --> 0:17:42.087 They were people who naturally and when you think about 0:17:42.087 --> 0:17:46.247 their past, it's not surprising they catastrophized about everything. You know, 0:17:46.527 --> 0:17:50.767 long before mobile phones, I had to wring from wherever 0:17:50.847 --> 0:17:54.087 I was to say that I'd arrived safely. There were 0:17:54.127 --> 0:17:58.407 always contingency plans to come and rescue me from imminent 0:17:58.527 --> 0:18:03.407 danger and threat. I mean, they were two extremely, extremely 0:18:03.487 --> 0:18:07.127 anxious people, and now I can see that at twenty 0:18:07.207 --> 0:18:11.287 four I did take the first available opportunity to get 0:18:11.287 --> 0:18:15.567 away from them. But I was absolutely, stubbornly convinced when 0:18:15.567 --> 0:18:18.527 I was twenty four that I was just madly in love. 0:18:18.527 --> 0:18:21.327 And it had nothing to do with that, and that 0:18:21.407 --> 0:18:23.727 the whole family thing that was separate. I am an 0:18:23.927 --> 0:18:28.247 entirely separate human doing my own separate adventure I think 0:18:28.327 --> 0:18:30.487 probably one of the reasons that people are so fascinated 0:18:30.487 --> 0:18:32.447 with the story of your mother is because with all 0:18:32.487 --> 0:18:36.167 of that context, everybody's story is very different. But many 0:18:36.207 --> 0:18:39.327 people's relationship with their parents are very complicated. Their parents 0:18:39.367 --> 0:18:41.807 are not saints, their parents are their own damaged people. 0:18:42.047 --> 0:18:44.167 But it's not the story we like to tell. We 0:18:44.367 --> 0:18:47.567 like to always see mothers as being nurturing angels to 0:18:47.567 --> 0:18:50.887 a point, who we all owe a great deal when 0:18:50.967 --> 0:18:53.127 it gets a little further along in life, and is 0:18:53.127 --> 0:18:56.727 maybe our turn to take care of them? Right? And 0:18:56.767 --> 0:19:00.127 I'd love to know, given all the context you've just 0:19:00.207 --> 0:19:02.967 painted for us, the point at which you realized you 0:19:03.007 --> 0:19:06.247 did need to or want to, or feel obliged to. 0:19:06.327 --> 0:19:09.607 I don't know. You can tell me that in your 0:19:09.647 --> 0:19:13.567 mother to be with you? How did that? What led 0:19:13.687 --> 0:19:15.407 up to that? Holly? 0:19:15.847 --> 0:19:19.327 I love that question because it presupposes that the initiative 0:19:19.527 --> 0:19:24.167 was mine and it was no, not at all. So 0:19:24.407 --> 0:19:28.887 my father got dementia and had been put into care 0:19:29.687 --> 0:19:34.687 in the UK. And when he died, my mother was 0:19:34.927 --> 0:19:38.567 eighty eight. And I remember we were at an art 0:19:38.607 --> 0:19:42.487 gallery having lunch, and she leaned across the table and 0:19:42.567 --> 0:19:45.447 she said, and now I'm going to come and live 0:19:45.487 --> 0:19:50.247 with you. And there was this look of glee on 0:19:50.327 --> 0:19:54.087 her face, but it was a kind of glee that 0:19:54.207 --> 0:19:57.887 had a little streak of a sort of malice or 0:19:57.967 --> 0:20:04.567 mischief in it, as in, I'm going to create absolute havoc. Now, 0:20:06.167 --> 0:20:08.287 I can't even explain that to you, but I just 0:20:08.407 --> 0:20:10.447 know the look on her her face when she said 0:20:10.447 --> 0:20:14.087 that to me was now, I've got you. I've got you. 0:20:15.087 --> 0:20:18.127 And I think that I'm such an optimist. To be 0:20:18.247 --> 0:20:20.167 perfectly honest, I thought. 0:20:20.007 --> 0:20:22.047 I'm not sure how you've ended up being an optimist. 0:20:22.127 --> 0:20:23.927 No, well, with a lot of work, a lot of 0:20:25.647 --> 0:20:31.367 and a very good second husband. Yes, I genuinely thought, Holly, Okay, 0:20:33.007 --> 0:20:37.327 my mother has had a really tough life, a really 0:20:37.767 --> 0:20:44.367 unhappy marriage, terrible years looking after my father while he 0:20:44.447 --> 0:20:48.487 was demented. I mean, visiting him in care and accompanying 0:20:48.567 --> 0:20:53.247 him and witnessing all of that, you know, dilapidation happening 0:20:53.287 --> 0:20:56.927 in some someone's brilliant mind. A terrible thing to have 0:20:56.967 --> 0:20:59.847 to witness for anybody who's gone through that. And I 0:20:59.967 --> 0:21:04.727 thought to myself, Okay, we are going to give her 0:21:05.167 --> 0:21:07.807 the best final years of her life we can. We 0:21:07.887 --> 0:21:11.567 are going to turn this woman's life around and give 0:21:11.607 --> 0:21:15.647 her joy, and we're going to give her affection, and 0:21:15.847 --> 0:21:18.407 she's going to get a new start, and eighty eight 0:21:18.527 --> 0:21:24.967 isn't too late. I just really built a fantasy around 0:21:25.087 --> 0:21:30.527 her throwing this bomb at us. I just thought, Okay, 0:21:31.167 --> 0:21:34.207 we'll make this work. And obviously I did that with 0:21:34.367 --> 0:21:37.527 a husband who was completely supportive and who didn't say 0:21:39.127 --> 0:21:42.407 no way, no way, is she coming to live with us? 0:21:42.487 --> 0:21:46.847 He just said, yeah, okay. And I guess in terms 0:21:46.887 --> 0:21:48.407 of the sort of push and pull and all the 0:21:48.487 --> 0:21:52.007 dynamics of relationships, I should say because this has occurred 0:21:52.007 --> 0:21:56.007 to me since when I met my second husband. He 0:21:56.487 --> 0:21:59.207 had a little boy who was nine at the time, 0:21:59.287 --> 0:22:03.527 who'd been very seriously ill between the ages three and seven, 0:22:03.567 --> 0:22:07.287 with a life threatening illness, and then whethered his parents 0:22:07.367 --> 0:22:11.487 divorce very badly. Are very se to very delicate boy. 0:22:11.967 --> 0:22:14.007 I don't have children of my own, but Louis came 0:22:14.047 --> 0:22:17.607 into my life. I learned an enormous amount from being 0:22:17.647 --> 0:22:21.927 a stepmother. Some of it was extremely difficult and some 0:22:21.967 --> 0:22:25.767 of it was immensely rewarding. But I guess that in 0:22:25.807 --> 0:22:29.087 the sort of give and take of a relationship, I 0:22:29.207 --> 0:22:32.527 had done a lot for Louis, and now it was 0:22:32.567 --> 0:22:36.567 my husband's turn to do the same back for me 0:22:36.807 --> 0:22:39.727 with my mother. So I think that without any of 0:22:39.727 --> 0:22:44.967 that being said, that was just implicit that that's what 0:22:45.047 --> 0:22:46.807 we were going to do. 0:22:50.727 --> 0:22:54.647 After this little break. What happens when Caroline's mum, Judith 0:22:55.047 --> 0:23:03.007 does move in. So you were optimistic, but you're also 0:23:03.447 --> 0:23:08.087 clear eyeding that you knew this was going to be interesting. 0:23:08.127 --> 0:23:11.207 You might have to make particul killer provisions and changes 0:23:11.207 --> 0:23:13.567 to your living situation and to the way that your 0:23:13.607 --> 0:23:17.247 relationship worked. How did you prepare for this, or rather, 0:23:17.287 --> 0:23:19.247 how did you make it happen? 0:23:19.967 --> 0:23:22.647 Well, again, a bit of delusion and optimism there, because 0:23:22.687 --> 0:23:26.007 my mother we thought might live independently of us, just 0:23:26.087 --> 0:23:28.607 down the road, and so we started to look at 0:23:28.647 --> 0:23:30.047 places that might be suitable. 0:23:30.367 --> 0:23:34.607 And now this involved you, theoretically, this involved your moving house. 0:23:35.407 --> 0:23:37.847 No, we thought that we would stay put, but that 0:23:37.887 --> 0:23:40.007 she we would find a place for her to live 0:23:40.207 --> 0:23:45.647 near us, and that soon became not really what she wanted. 0:23:46.047 --> 0:23:48.527 And then she said what she wanted to do was 0:23:48.567 --> 0:23:51.647 she wanted to live with us in our house and 0:23:51.727 --> 0:23:54.967 pay for us to build a second story on the house. 0:23:55.127 --> 0:23:57.487 So sort of an integrated granny flat. 0:23:57.887 --> 0:23:59.727 Yeah, but she didn't want to live on the ground floor, 0:23:59.727 --> 0:24:01.727 which would have made more sense given that she already 0:24:01.727 --> 0:24:04.927 had mobility issues. She didn't like ground floors, so she said, no, 0:24:05.167 --> 0:24:07.847 I will have a top floor built and you will 0:24:07.887 --> 0:24:10.127 put in a stair chair. And she had all of 0:24:10.127 --> 0:24:13.647 that worked out. She's very practical. She did the sort 0:24:13.647 --> 0:24:16.967 of assessment of the architect and the beauty pageant with 0:24:17.047 --> 0:24:21.087 the builders, and when the builders came to talk about 0:24:21.087 --> 0:24:23.487 the contract, if they made no eye contact with her, 0:24:23.567 --> 0:24:26.607 she'd say, no, I'm not dealing with them. So she 0:24:26.727 --> 0:24:29.767 chose the youngest, least experienced builder who looked her in 0:24:29.807 --> 0:24:32.007 the eye and who understood that she was the client. 0:24:32.167 --> 0:24:35.167 We were not the clients. Yes, And she made a 0:24:35.367 --> 0:24:38.287 very very good call there. He did a fantastic job, 0:24:38.407 --> 0:24:41.327 and so we moved out of our house together just 0:24:41.407 --> 0:24:44.647 before COVID. Round the corner, the three of us found 0:24:44.647 --> 0:24:46.607 a house that we could live in for the seven 0:24:46.647 --> 0:24:49.727 months that a new story was built on our house, 0:24:50.567 --> 0:24:53.527 and just before COVID, thank god, we were able to 0:24:53.567 --> 0:24:58.767 move back into the house. And at the time, again 0:24:59.007 --> 0:25:03.127 optimist and delusional, I thought, well, there's a kitchenette up there, 0:25:03.207 --> 0:25:07.207 she's going to make herself most meals and come down 0:25:07.327 --> 0:25:11.247 maybe for dinner two or three times a week. But no, 0:25:11.767 --> 0:25:17.327 that's not what happened. So she made herself breakfast up there, 0:25:17.647 --> 0:25:21.167 and she never made dinner, and she never made lunch. 0:25:21.167 --> 0:25:24.287