Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mama Mer acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia out Loud. It's what women are actually talking about.
Speaker 2: On Monday, the twenty eighth of October. I'm Holly Wayne right,
Speaker 2: I'm still basking and having given the best ever recommendation
Speaker 2: ever on Mama My Outloud on Friday, do you very
Speaker 2: popular know how many out louders are now obsessed with Rivals?
Speaker 2: Watch Rivals? Me Friedman?
Speaker 3: Have you started?
Speaker 1: Hello, I'm mea Friedman. I wasn't on the show on Friday.
Speaker 1: I didn't listen to the show on Friday, but on
Speaker 1: the weekend I started watching Rivals and I love it.
Speaker 3: Oh my goodness. Okay, I am Jesse Stevens. I haven't
Speaker 3: started watching Rivals yet because I've got a lot of
Speaker 3: other shows to get through.
Speaker 4: But it's don't stop.
Speaker 2: On today's show, one of the most successful women in
Speaker 2: Australian media has surprised everyone by talking about her drug
Speaker 2: and alcohol addiction and it reminds us of something we
Speaker 2: repeatedly choose to forget. Also probably seen the clip of
Speaker 2: Irish movie star Sirsha Ronan sitting on a chat show couch,
Speaker 2: shutting everyone up with a truth bomb about women and violence.
Speaker 2: But what wasn't said? And screw getting a mentor don't
Speaker 2: dream big and really really don't trust your gut. It's
Speaker 2: the best career advice that's exactly the opposite of everything
Speaker 2: you've been told.
Speaker 3: But first, in case you missed it, Americans are really
Speaker 3: keen to dress up as Raygun for Halloween. Google Trends
Speaker 3: has tracked the most popular Halloween costumes, and as it stands,
Speaker 3: Raygun is coming in at number two, just under Shrunken
Speaker 3: Head Bob from Beetlejuice. Never heard of Shrunken Head Bob.
Speaker 1: I'm picturing what a Raygun costume might be and I'm
Speaker 1: coming up completely blank.
Speaker 2: It's an Australia track.
Speaker 3: Suit, you know, Walmart is selling it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Maggie, Australia green and gold tracksuit.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so they are selling a Raygun costume and it's
Speaker 3: actually really good. And I kept thinking, I really hope
Speaker 3: that Australia has trademarked some of this because I think
Speaker 3: it could fix our cost of living crisis if we
Speaker 3: get all this money from the US. Because every single American,
Speaker 3: all three hundred million of them, are dressing as Raygun.
Speaker 3: We could do with that in our public person Anyway.
Speaker 3: I get a bit confused this time of year because
Speaker 3: I thought that Halloween was about being scary, and perhaps
Speaker 3: Raygun fits into that genre, but also in the top ten.
Speaker 1: Well, that's not very nice.
Speaker 3: I think that a lot of people were quite confronted
Speaker 3: by her doubts. I'm a big fan of Raygun, but like,
Speaker 3: I think it fits in the Halloween category.
Speaker 1: Do you I was just about to say, do you
Speaker 1: think you'd be flattered or freaked out if you were Raygun?
Speaker 3: I think she'd find this fun. She found the memes
Speaker 3: and stuff fun. She didn't find the cancel uo everyone
Speaker 3: in an.
Speaker 1: Apology as fun, not the death threats less fun.
Speaker 3: Less fun. But among some of the other top training costumes,
Speaker 3: Sabrina Carpenter is a big one, and also Moodang, the.
Speaker 2: Viral hip hop.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, how do you dress up as Mudang? I
Speaker 1: like that?
Speaker 3: I like that a lot.
Speaker 1: Untsipig.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Maya, what are you gonna dress up?
Speaker 5: As well?
Speaker 1: We've got an all hands meeting at Mamma Maya, and
Speaker 1: apparently we've got dress ups in here. Oh and our
Speaker 1: CEO's coming as a vampire as per your instruction.
Speaker 3: Yes, scary.
Speaker 4: I don't usually.
Speaker 1: Dress up, like when I used to take my kids out,
Speaker 1: did I dress up? I don't think I did, and
Speaker 1: I think I've given away all our old Halloween stuff
Speaker 1: because my kids have grown out of it.
Speaker 2: To your point, Jesse, about whether it's scary or not,
Speaker 2: obviously I don't like Halloween because I don't like dressing up.
Speaker 2: That's on the record. However, Halloween is scary when you're
Speaker 2: a child because as our relationship in Australia with Halloween
Speaker 2: has matured and become more American, if you're not a
Speaker 2: little kid, it's now just dress up as whoever you want,
Speaker 2: which is why it's always interesting what the.
Speaker 1: Cultural and Sabrina kat is exactly.
Speaker 2: And so you know, a few years ago there was
Speaker 2: lots of Donald Trump, but I think this year everybody's
Speaker 2: decided that's too close to the.
Speaker 3: Bad MAYA fun fact. Holley and I were at a
Speaker 3: writer's festival over the weekend and we met a group
Speaker 3: of out louders who said they had a dress up
Speaker 3: party recently and the theme was what do you want
Speaker 3: to be when you grow up and they went as
Speaker 3: us and they had headphones, they had a microphone. One
Speaker 3: woman dresses in sparkles. Around that time you said you
Speaker 3: won't wearing sparkles anymore, which ruined her costume. But I
Speaker 3: assured her that you have changed your mind and your
Speaker 3: back to sparkles.
Speaker 1: That's phenomenal. Is there photographic evidence of this?
Speaker 3: Well, I saw it, but I didn't get sent it.
Speaker 3: So I would like to do a call out for
Speaker 3: that out louder. Can you please put it in the
Speaker 3: Facebook group or send it to us? We desperately need
Speaker 3: to see that image.
Speaker 2: They're wonderful out louders from Adelaide. So if that's you,
Speaker 2: because maybe more out louder than I don't know.
Speaker 1: My fallback for fancy dress and this works for Halloween
Speaker 1: or book week. If it's you, or if it's a child,
Speaker 1: just get a pen and draw a Harry pottersca on.
Speaker 2: A forhad done off you go.
Speaker 5: I'll be checking in to the Betty Ford Center in
Speaker 5: ranch Home, Miarage. I'll be spending twenty eight days there,
Speaker 5: voluntarily enrolled in a twelve step program there to treat
Speaker 5: the substance dependence and drug addiction. I've been able to
Speaker 5: keep secret for three long four years. Are you okay?
Speaker 4: I am okay?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is one of the most successful people in
Speaker 2: Australian media. Jackie O reading an excerpt from her memoir
Speaker 2: on The Kyle and JACKIEO Show on Friday, which is
Speaker 2: a radio show in Sydney and also in Melbourne, and
Speaker 2: it's one of the biggest radio shows that's ever existed
Speaker 2: in Australia.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: It was very interesting that Jackie O decided to share
Speaker 2: that as part of her memoir promotion because for the
Speaker 2: past year or so a lot has been written about her,
Speaker 2: some of it by me. I wrote a piece about
Speaker 2: Jackie's comeback and what it all meant in the context
Speaker 2: of weight loss and body image back in June last year,
Speaker 2: because it seemed like suddenly the second chair on the
Speaker 2: Kyle and JACKIEO Show, one of the most listened to
Speaker 2: people in the country was everywhere. After being almost invisible
Speaker 2: there for a while, post divorced the narrative when she
Speaker 2: was back, and she was back on magazine covers at
Speaker 2: the kind of social events that get you in the paper.
Speaker 2: She was launching a business with her best friend. She
Speaker 2: signed a new deal with Sandaland's worth a reported two
Speaker 2: hundred million dollars. The narrative was that she'd been sad
Speaker 2: about her relationship breakdown and deep in pandemic work and
Speaker 2: motherhood funk, and now she was on a health kick,
Speaker 2: feeling great and was back out there. Pieces like mine
Speaker 2: talked about how women feel that they can re emerge
Speaker 2: from social hibernation when their confidence is back, and yes,
Speaker 2: when their body looks the way everybody wants it to
Speaker 2: turns out. I, like everyone else who was talking about this,
Speaker 2: knew nothing, because, as you just heard this past week,
Speaker 2: Jackie O read from her book called The Whole Truth
Speaker 2: about the fact that actually she had been in a
Speaker 2: pit of addiction to painkillers, to sleeping pills, taboos for years,
Speaker 2: and that the re emergence that we all witnessed in
Speaker 2: twenty twenty three was actually about her becoming sober. She'd
Speaker 2: spent time at the Betty Ford Clinic in America, as
Speaker 2: she said in that clip, entered a twelve step program,
Speaker 2: detoxed from her drug addiction and was learning how to
Speaker 2: live a life without that toxic secret. What we were
Speaker 2: actually seeing was her coming back to life. I read
Speaker 2: everything I could about this on the weekend because Jackie
Speaker 2: fascinates me. She always does. I think she's consistently underrated
Speaker 2: as the reason that that show is a success, but
Speaker 2: also because it's yet another reminder that the stories we
Speaker 2: tell ourselves about what's going on in public people's lives,
Speaker 2: even the story they're telling us, is rarely accurate. And
Speaker 2: when we latch onto it as a story to tell
Speaker 2: ourselves and compare ourselves against, we're never doing that with
Speaker 2: the full picture in sight, so it's never a good idea.
Speaker 6: Mia.
Speaker 2: You interviewed Jackie last year, were you surprised by this?
Speaker 1: To be honest, MY first reaction was that I was bummed,
Speaker 1: but I didn't get the screen. Of course, that she
Speaker 1: didn't tell me, but I completely understand that she wanted
Speaker 1: to do it in her own time and in her
Speaker 1: own words, and I really respect that. I was really
Speaker 1: surprised because I think you, being a little bit generous,
Speaker 1: I would say whole in terms of the main conversation
Speaker 1: that's been around jack for the last year, which has
Speaker 1: been around her weight, but.
Speaker 2: Not only about her weight. It's been about this hole
Speaker 2: she's back thing. Right, That's what I very much have
Speaker 2: been reading, and that's the subtape.
Speaker 1: I think her weight has been an avatar for that,
Speaker 1: you know, in terms of the media's portrayal of her.
Speaker 1: Every single article on the Daily Mail, which you know,
Speaker 1: writes about her incessantly as they can. She's in the
Speaker 1: public eye, but it is all focused on her weight.
Speaker 1: It's all shows off her new pins, shows off her
Speaker 1: new body, shows off her svelt frame. There was this
Speaker 1: cultural obsession that Jackie looked very different to the way
Speaker 1: Jackie's looked for the last ten years. And I think
Speaker 1: that by talking about is it the divorce? What is it?
Speaker 4: That sort of.
Speaker 1: Gave people permission to have the conversation and ask her
Speaker 1: the questions, often directly, and she denied it. Every time
Speaker 1: that she was on a zempic she said, no, no,
Speaker 1: I'm not, I'm not not. You have to believe someone,
Speaker 1: while at the same time you have to respect that
Speaker 1: someone's health information is completely their own to share and
Speaker 1: decide whether they want to make a public or not.
Speaker 1: So I think what this has done is, as you say,
Speaker 1: the story we thought we were seeing, which was one
Speaker 1: about weight loss, and she even has said in the
Speaker 1: book all her team were running bets on what they
Speaker 1: thought it was did she have gastric bypass surgery? Did
Speaker 1: she leave to have cosmetic surgery? Was she on a
Speaker 1: reality show? Why did she have this absence that she
Speaker 1: had told everybody was because she was suffering from long
Speaker 1: COVID and needed time off. Even Kyle in an industry
Speaker 1: that can't keep secrets very well, I guess I was
Speaker 1: incredibly impressed and also just impressed that she's done this
Speaker 1: on her terms. In terms of telling her story.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm really glad that she was afforded that privacy
Speaker 3: because that would have been really difficult. They explain how
Speaker 3: the pre recorded message i think went out after she
Speaker 3: left the country so that you know, she wouldn't be followed,
Speaker 3: and she had the hat on and the mask and
Speaker 3: everything so that people wouldn't talk about it before she
Speaker 3: was ready.
Speaker 2: And we know that.
Speaker 3: Happens all the time to celebrities, and that must really
Speaker 3: hinder recovery or just make it more difficult. So I'm
Speaker 3: glad that she was able to just disappear and recover.
Speaker 3: But you're right, Holly, that when someone is on radio
Speaker 3: for four hours every day, five days a week, that's
Speaker 3: twenty hours where they are talking, often about their lives.
Speaker 3: You can feel as though with public figures that you
Speaker 3: know them very, very intimately, and this just reminds us
Speaker 3: that we don't. On the days that she wasn't doing radio,
Speaker 3: she was saying that, you know, she might just sleep.
Speaker 3: There's women who were living with addiction, which tying into
Speaker 3: the post COVID world. I know that COVID has exacerbated
Speaker 3: addiction for a lot of people, alcoholism, substance abuse. But
Speaker 3: also I was thinking about all of those women and
Speaker 3: men who are married and have kids and then they
Speaker 3: split and all of a sudden, and I've heard divorced
Speaker 3: women talk about this, the loud silence of a house
Speaker 3: where the child used to be and how you feel that,
Speaker 3: And she speaks about that as well, which I thought
Speaker 3: was really generous.
Speaker 1: And also, you don't have caring responsibilities for you know,
Speaker 1: maybe half the time or whatever it is when your
Speaker 1: child is with their other.
Speaker 3: Parent, how do you feel that time when you're not
Speaker 3: used to filling that time.
Speaker 1: But it's not just that, it's you can be out
Speaker 1: of it because you don't have to take care of someone.
Speaker 1: So that's why women's addictions are much more likely to
Speaker 1: be addictions like gambling or overeating, because they are addictions.
Speaker 1: You can carry on your caring responsibilities, whether it's for
Speaker 1: children or whoever it's for. But when you are only
Speaker 1: with your children half the time, you can get away
Speaker 1: with it a lot in that time because you have
Speaker 1: no responsibilities. It's like it's all on or off.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, It's also a different narrative about what addiction looks
Speaker 2: like and who suffers from it, right, Because when I
Speaker 2: say about the story that we're always told but we
Speaker 2: happily forget, it's the idea that famous, rich, beautiful, successful,
Speaker 2: thin people, you know whatever, who live in mansions in
Speaker 2: beautiful bits of the city are immune from the kind
Speaker 2: of issues that plague other people. And I'm not suggesting
Speaker 2: that that means there should be a tiny violin for
Speaker 2: all the rich and glorious millionaires. But what I mean
Speaker 2: is it's like, again, we look at people sometimes in
Speaker 2: that public fear, and we compare ourselves to them and
Speaker 2: make ourselves feel bad about it, like why aren't I
Speaker 2: doing so well after my divorce? Or why haven't I
Speaker 2: managed to get on top of my weight issues or
Speaker 2: whatever it is? And the sort of fridge magnet cliche
Speaker 2: of you never know what people are going through. It's
Speaker 2: just really really true because she was looking like one thing,
Speaker 2: and really she was going through this really serious addiction.
Speaker 3: And it challenges the narrative that we have because when
Speaker 3: people talk about addiction in past tense, it often follows
Speaker 3: the pattern of a rock bottom. So the rock bottom
Speaker 3: might be that you were driving your kids around with
Speaker 3: a high blood alcohol level, or you ended up in hospital,
Speaker 3: or you lost your job, or you lost your job,
Speaker 3: something really really significant that you go. And I've heard
Speaker 3: addicks say they're waiting for the rock bottom period because
Speaker 3: they're like, I'm functioning. Why would I get this sorted now?
Speaker 3: I've not had the rock bottom? And in Jackie's story,
Speaker 3: she wasn't found out. She was still somewhat functioning. What
Speaker 3: I love is that her best friend this is I
Speaker 3: think it's also a story of like strong female friendships,
Speaker 3: because it was her best friend, Gemma that said we're
Speaker 3: getting you to rehab. But Jackie, which is the story
Speaker 3: of so many addicts, was like, that feels really over
Speaker 3: the top because.
Speaker 1: She hadn't hit rock bottom. And what we learned from
Speaker 1: the book or that the interview she gave about it,
Speaker 1: is that what prompted her to tell people was not
Speaker 1: in her control. It was that the person who'd been
Speaker 1: supplying her with the prescription medication was no longer able
Speaker 1: to supply her. So she knew, I'm addicted to all
Speaker 1: these substances and they're gonna run out. She had like
Speaker 1: a week or something left. She didn't know how she
Speaker 1: was going to cope, so it was almost forced upon her.
Speaker 1: I thought also it was interesting, you know, you say,
Speaker 1: you think you know these celebrities, but you don't. I mean,
Speaker 1: everybody's got secrets, for sure, but I would say of
Speaker 1: Jackie on the scale of famous people, she is so
Speaker 1: normal and down to earth. And if you just look
Speaker 1: at pictures of her, particularly in the last year, where
Speaker 1: she does look incredibly glamorous, and you don't listen to
Speaker 1: the show and you don't know anything about her story,
Speaker 1: you might dismiss her as an influencer or all for show.
Speaker 1: But she's actually very self deprecating, very down to earth,
Speaker 1: very very hard working, very smart. And that's what I
Speaker 1: was struck most by, you know, in the interview that
Speaker 1: I did with her, and on all the occasions I've
Speaker 1: met her, and I think that what's so good about
Speaker 1: this also is that she was able to we talk
Speaker 1: all the time right from a or speak from a scar,
Speaker 1: not a wound. Recovery is fragile, and when you have
Speaker 1: to be in recovery while also dealing with the world
Speaker 1: talking to you and asking you questions and following you
Speaker 1: and writing about you and speculating about you, I think
Speaker 1: that that adds a whole layer to it that is
Speaker 1: not conducive to sustaining that recovery.
Speaker 3: Or we're still wrestling with what happened during COVID when
Speaker 3: everyone disappeared and when we all went into our homes,
Speaker 3: so alcohol use had been going down, and then something
Speaker 3: happened during COVID that they're still studying, which is that
Speaker 3: at the very least it didn't continue going down like
Speaker 3: people's relationships.
Speaker 1: With Some people drank themselves to death during.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think we're still wrestling with that. But
Speaker 3: I think it's also important, just when we're talking about this,
Speaker 3: to acknowledge that there are a lot of people listening
Speaker 3: and a lot of people in Australia who are living
Speaker 3: with addiction issues that don't have the resources to go
Speaker 3: to a really premium rehab facility, to take a month
Speaker 3: off and to take a month exactly.
Speaker 2: Right, that's true. But I've seen her copying a bit
Speaker 2: of credit for that, and that irritates me because of
Speaker 2: course that's true, and there are real issues here. Why
Speaker 2: would you criticize her well saying that, saying oh, it's
Speaker 2: all right for you because you could fly off to
Speaker 2: the Betty Ford Center, right that. I've seen some of that, right.
Speaker 2: And the thing is is it is an important point
Speaker 2: to make, Jesse, because it is really hard for a
Speaker 2: lot of people to access help for addiction and mental
Speaker 2: health issues, and we absolutely know that. But she did
Speaker 2: not have to come clean and inverted commas about this.
Speaker 2: She's got a memoir full of stories that she could
Speaker 2: have told without this, and it's speaking for a lot
Speaker 2: of people who are struggling with this, which I think
Speaker 2: is hashtag brave. And also you know you're going to
Speaker 2: open yourself up to that kind of criticism about privilege,
Speaker 2: So still hashtag brave because ultimately saying me too, I
Speaker 2: struggle with this to a lot of women similar phase
Speaker 2: of life or whatever is.
Speaker 1: A gift after the break the ten words from one
Speaker 1: very famous woman that silenced all the men on a
Speaker 1: talk show.
Speaker 4: Couch all came of it.
Speaker 2: Finally happened. Beyonce came down from whatever planet of sweet
Speaker 2: smelling awesomeness she in habits, walked out on stage and
Speaker 2: endorsed Kamala Harris. While all the Kamala stands among us
Speaker 2: are hoping it's a knockout blow for that guy, we
Speaker 2: kind of doubt it. Beyonce didn't sing, despite what I'm
Speaker 2: sure were eye watering offers for her to have come
Speaker 2: out and belted out freedom. Instead, Here's what she said.
Speaker 6: I'm not here as a celebrity. I'm not here as
Speaker 6: a politician. I'm here as a mother, a mother who
Speaker 6: cares deeply about the world. My children and all of
Speaker 6: our children live a world where we have the freedom
Speaker 6: to control our bodies, a world world we're not divided.
Speaker 6: Our past, our present, our future merge to meet us here.
Speaker 1: It's no accident that that happened in Texas because it
Speaker 1: was the first US state to implement a near total
Speaker 1: abortion man after Roe versus Wade was overturned. That same week,
Speaker 1: Trump was cosplaying working in McDonald's. So it's quite surreal.
Speaker 2: Yeah, although there are so many celebrities for Harris, now
Speaker 2: it feels like every celebrity is for Harris, and I
Speaker 2: just wonder if it really helps. However, I wish I'd
Speaker 2: been at that rally. I would literally faint if I
Speaker 2: was in the presence of Beyonce.
Speaker 3: I'm a massive, massive Beyonce fan and shameless plug. Tomorrow's
Speaker 3: episode of canceled all about Beyonce. We go into the
Speaker 3: Beyonce conspiracy theory? Did he? We had a lot of excellence. Okay,
Speaker 3: you might have seen the headline this week that Sirsha Ronan,
Speaker 3: who you might know from Ladybird or Little Women, managed
Speaker 3: to silence all the men on The Graham Norton Show
Speaker 3: with just ten words. Over the weekend, footage went viral
Speaker 3: of Ronan sitting beside Paul school, Eddie Redmain and Denzel
Speaker 3: Washington and they were talking about the ridiculous ways they
Speaker 3: might protect themselves in a fight. Paul meschyl Is famously
Speaker 3: in the Next Gladiator movie is and out next week,
Speaker 3: and they were talking about how, you know, they were
Speaker 3: doing training on set and someone said, you can use
Speaker 3: sort of anything as a weapon, even a phone can
Speaker 3: be a weapon, and so off that story. This is
Speaker 3: how the conversation went.
Speaker 4: Who's actually going to think about that?
Speaker 6: Though?
Speaker 4: Someone a text me, I'm not going to go phone.
Speaker 2: That's a very good point, like the top girls have
Speaker 2: to think about all the time, Am I right?
Speaker 6: Ladies?
Speaker 3: Quickly, this grab was bundled up by news autlets who
Speaker 3: pointed out the issue with Paul Meschal's joke. She was
Speaker 3: celebrated for and this is a quote gagging men, and
Speaker 3: many women have responded with the ways in which they
Speaker 3: keep themselves safe. Some even said that mescal now gave
Speaker 3: them the ick and even the good guys don't get it.
Speaker 4: I had a.
Speaker 3: Different response to this clip, but first I want to
Speaker 3: know what you made of it.
Speaker 1: Maya, Well, that's exhausting. I mean, you know, I think
Speaker 1: she made a good point, but I don't think he
Speaker 1: was doing anything wrong. And none of the other men
Speaker 1: on the couch we're doing anything wrong. We live in
Speaker 1: different worlds, Like women have an awareness that we have
Speaker 1: had pretty much since we've been sentient of our vulnerability,
Speaker 1: and this idea of using a phone as a weapon
Speaker 1: or as a diversion, like I'll walk to my car
Speaker 1: and I'll call my husband if I'm walking to my car,
Speaker 1: so that I'm on the phone in case anything happens
Speaker 1: to me. Men can't be expected to necessarily know that.
Speaker 1: I know that when you talk to men about the
Speaker 1: fact that, oh yeah, we all just carry our keys
Speaker 1: between our fingers, and my mum taught me to look
Speaker 1: in the back seat in my car before I get
Speaker 1: into it after it's been parked. It makes me incensed
Speaker 1: that women live in a different world to men, and
Speaker 1: sometimes they get angry that that's the case. But I
Speaker 1: don't think we need to attack these particular men.
Speaker 2: I don't think that's what she was doing either. Right,
Speaker 2: it's irritated me those headlines that are like she silenced them,
Speaker 2: she gagged them, she called them out. That's not what
Speaker 2: she was doing. If you watch the clip, she literally
Speaker 2: was saying the most normal thing in the world that
Speaker 2: lots of women would say. And then she kind of
Speaker 2: senses the vibe shift and she makes a little joke
Speaker 2: and makes a little hand gesture like I don't think
Speaker 2: she was doing that. But anyway, that's not really the point.
Speaker 3: No, I agree with you, because I like that she
Speaker 3: said that, and she's speaking to how cognizant women are
Speaker 3: of their own safety, which I think is a valid point.
Speaker 3: But I've said it before and I'll say it again,
Speaker 3: and I definitely thought it when I saw this clip
Speaker 3: being shared by a lot of women. If her and
Speaker 3: Paul were walking down the street together, it is more likely,
Speaker 3: statistically that Paul is going to be attacked. There's a
Speaker 3: name for it. It's called the fear of crime gender paradox,
Speaker 3: and it's that men are commonly less fearful of violence
Speaker 3: crime than women, despite the fact that they are at
Speaker 3: much higher risk of being victims.
Speaker 1: So is that because men have a better chance of
Speaker 1: defending themselves firstly, Secondly, that if a woman is attacked,
Speaker 1: it's likely that it will end either in her sexual
Speaker 1: assault or her death.
Speaker 3: No, this is a thing if a woman is on
Speaker 3: a run, and we know that the media has stories
Speaker 3: that they pick up on and it is based on
Speaker 3: how a woman looks, it is based on her age,
Speaker 3: it is based on the circumstances upon which she died.
Speaker 3: And I learned this when I was hosting true crime conversations.
Speaker 3: There are many cases of men who have been randomly
Speaker 3: attacked that maybe they don't make the headlines, and that
Speaker 3: then perpetuates the fear that a lot of women feel.
Speaker 3: I think the men I know many men.
Speaker 1: Don't fear healthy I don't mean good, I don't mean positive.
Speaker 1: But doesn't it contribute to our survival?
Speaker 3: No, I'd argue that it doesn't. So my brother, for example,
Speaker 3: was walking down the street a few years ago and
Speaker 3: was punched in the face by men much much bigger
Speaker 3: than him. And men might be stronger, but like, if
Speaker 3: you're walking down the street and you're the victim of
Speaker 3: violent crime, you're probably not going to fight back because
Speaker 3: you're in total shock. You've frozen. I've spoken on this
Speaker 3: podcast before about being the victim of a random attack
Speaker 3: and I froze. I had no idea what to do.
Speaker 1: So what's your point. I don't understand that men should
Speaker 1: be more afraid or women should be less afraid.
Speaker 3: Of women should be less afraid. And when I looked
Speaker 3: at that couch, and it wasn't about her, right, it
Speaker 3: wasn't about ron, and it was about the reaction women going,
Speaker 3: men don't know how we live. And I was looking
Speaker 3: at the men on that couch and I went, hang on,
Speaker 3: you don't know the stories of those men. And in fact,
Speaker 3: I know a story about Graham Norton, who's sitting on
Speaker 3: the end there, who's a gay man, and his likelihood
Speaker 3: of being attacked randomly on a street is significantly higher
Speaker 3: than anyone else on this couch. When he was in
Speaker 3: his twenties, he was a victim of a mugging and
Speaker 3: he was violently stabbed and he was left to die.
Speaker 3: That would have impacted how he walks through the world
Speaker 3: as well as I know that it does for men
Speaker 3: who are the victims of violent crime. And the reason
Speaker 3: why I get my back up a little bit when
Speaker 3: I talk about women who say I carry my keys,
Speaker 3: we do carry our phones to try and protect themselves.
Speaker 3: I don't do any of those things. And the reason
Speaker 3: I don't is because I was attacked on the street
Speaker 3: and none of those things would have helped me. They
Speaker 3: didn't make me feel safer. And in fact, sometimes being
Speaker 3: hyper vigilant about.
Speaker 1: You change your behavior at all.
Speaker 3: I don't think I have not, And in fact, for
Speaker 3: a while I was very scared when I walk past
Speaker 3: a man. I feel my body. Happened the other day
Speaker 3: and someone kind of darts in front of me, and
Speaker 3: I feel my whole nervous system going to overdrive. But
Speaker 3: I think it's almost like, no, I'm not going to
Speaker 3: not walk home. I walk home from the gym at night,
Speaker 3: I get on the train at night, I do all
Speaker 3: those things. I'm not going to change my behavior because
Speaker 3: I had that experience. I feel quite like indignant about it.
Speaker 2: And I agree with you about all that, right, I
Speaker 2: feel the same way. I feel like a lot of
Speaker 2: the stuff that's about making women feel afraid to be
Speaker 2: out in the world is not helpful to us at all.
Speaker 2: But I feel so defensive. You start this conversation right,
Speaker 2: because you know, when was it, how long ago was
Speaker 2: it when there was that awful spate of violence against
Speaker 2: women and it seemed to break through into a national
Speaker 2: conversation always. Yeah, you know, there was a point this
Speaker 2: year where there were a couple of horrimen Yeah, a
Speaker 2: couple of horrific attacks, and we started to talk about
Speaker 2: it in a big way, and people were taking to
Speaker 2: the streets and it was discussion all the time, and
Speaker 2: I heard some very prominent men saying exactly what you're saying, Jesse.
Speaker 2: They were like, yes, that's awful, but do you know
Speaker 2: women that we are much more likely than you to
Speaker 2: be attacked, And do you know women that male violence
Speaker 2: affects men more than it affects women, And it in
Speaker 2: senses me because it's like a wilful misunderstanding of the
Speaker 2: fact that you're absolutely right about the fact that a
Speaker 2: man walking past a group of young men on the
Speaker 2: street has more right to be worried in a way
Speaker 2: than women, and it probably is, and many men live
Speaker 2: with that fear. But women are attacked and killed all
Speaker 2: the time by men in their homes and in their lives,
Speaker 2: and the idea that we are somehow inflating our risk
Speaker 2: of violence to victimize ourselves makes me so mad.
Speaker 4: I think.
Speaker 3: So that's a really good point, right, because for women,
Speaker 3: you are more likely to be inside your own home
Speaker 3: by someone who claims to love you than you are
Speaker 3: walking down the street.
Speaker 2: So so male violence is a massive problem for women.
Speaker 2: And every time I hear that defense, it sounds to
Speaker 2: me like they're telling us to shut up and sit down,
Speaker 2: when actually, you know, what everybody's talking about today is
Speaker 2: the interview with Lily James's parents on sixty Minutes last night.
Speaker 2: She was the young woman killed at work one year
Speaker 2: ago this month. She was at her job at a
Speaker 2: school in Sydney and a young man that she'd been
Speaker 2: dating for five weeks and had stopped dating, came to
Speaker 2: her workplace and murdered her brutally, then sent her dad
Speaker 2: a text message saying this is Lily, come and pick
Speaker 2: me up, and then took his own life. Horrible, horrible
Speaker 2: story on every level. But that's how male violence affects
Speaker 2: women in all kinds of ways. Is often within our
Speaker 2: home with men that we know. And every time I
Speaker 2: hear that defense of like, but men, but men, but men,
Speaker 2: I'm just like, you don't get it. We're living with
Speaker 2: very different realities.
Speaker 3: But isn't the point that we're not.
Speaker 2: I think we absolutely are.
Speaker 3: But this is a thing, right if statistically a man
Speaker 3: is more likely to walk down the street and be attacked,
Speaker 3: which we know, and we saw it with the King hit,
Speaker 3: you know, example.
Speaker 2: And we saw the reaction to that, and laws were
Speaker 2: changed and an entire city was altered in reaction to that.
Speaker 2: I'm with you.
Speaker 3: I'm with you. My reaction is there is something oppressive
Speaker 3: about telling women to change their behavior or like perpetuating
Speaker 3: this idea that we should be always on high alert.
Speaker 3: That's suggesting that the street isn't ours to own. And
Speaker 3: so that's the thing I feel like I rebel against
Speaker 3: is that men are still.
Speaker 1: But why can't we be on alert and in the street.
Speaker 1: I don't stay home, but when I'm at I'm on alert.
Speaker 1: And there are things that I do, and there are
Speaker 1: things that I have taught my daughter.
Speaker 3: To do, even teaching our daughters. And I'm in the
Speaker 3: same position that the idea of something ever happening to
Speaker 3: my daughter is my worst nightmare in the whole world.
Speaker 3: But telling her to walk around with keys between her
Speaker 3: like is that freedom? Is that true freedom to feel
Speaker 3: as though you are waiting. And in fact, when I
Speaker 3: was attacked on the street, I remember thinking, this is
Speaker 3: when it happens. Like I'd been waiting my whole life
Speaker 3: for that moment because I'd been prepared for it. I'm
Speaker 3: not sure my brother had.
Speaker 1: Sarah Silverman has a joke quote Mark's joke about this
Speaker 1: where she talks about you know, hearing the footsteps behind
Speaker 1: you and as a woman thinking, oh, this is my
Speaker 1: sexual assault. Yeah, it's come now, Like in some ways,
Speaker 1: it's the expectation that it'll probably happen to you. It's
Speaker 1: a question of when. I also understand that there's theory
Speaker 1: and ideology and then there's actual practice. And I've had
Speaker 1: arguments about this all the time, often with younger women
Speaker 1: about well do we talk about the connection between, for example,
Speaker 1: different things that will put a woman at higher risk.
Speaker 3: We don't do it to men. And I do think
Speaker 3: the statistics matter because they tell us that the man
Speaker 3: who hurts you is probably not hiding in a bush
Speaker 3: right now.
Speaker 1: Exactly.
Speaker 2: It's more useful to talk to your daughter if she is.
Speaker 1: But I talked to her about both.
Speaker 2: Of course you do. But the problem making to your son,
Speaker 2: and also the problem about the end result of that
Speaker 2: don't do anything dangerous is like, what, so, don't walk home?
Speaker 2: Get an uber, but what about the uber driver? Don't
Speaker 2: go out in it? Like the end result is us
Speaker 2: locked in our houses, not going out alone, which is
Speaker 2: a mostageous absolutely not reflective of where the risk is.
Speaker 2: And so I get the urge of like, well, I
Speaker 2: could have had my keys, I could have not taken
Speaker 2: that route home. But also that leads you to never
Speaker 2: going anywhere.
Speaker 1: It kind of it's about needing the illusion of I'm
Speaker 1: going to do whatever is in my power to do,
Speaker 1: and maybe it's useless, maybe it's a prophylactic. What else
Speaker 1: can I do other than just rely on the goodwill
Speaker 1: of a man not to attack me?
Speaker 3: Or is it when women are attacked or when women
Speaker 3: are the victims of violence, the stories that we tell
Speaker 3: often suggests that they could have done more to prevent it.
Speaker 3: There's a gendered thing that's like, well, if she wasn't
Speaker 3: wearing that, or if when a man is attacked on
Speaker 3: the street, we never talk about what he was wearing.
Speaker 3: We never talk about whether or not he was drinking.
Speaker 2: He should have been out at night.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I don't think we talk about women like
Speaker 1: that anymore. Maybe I'm being knaved, but I just don't.
Speaker 1: I think that we've progressed as a society light years
Speaker 1: from the way we used to think. We understand about
Speaker 1: there being no such thing as a perfect victim. We
Speaker 1: understand the fact that what a woman does is not
Speaker 1: necessarily going to impact But even if it's just the
Speaker 1: illusion of protection, I just don't see the harm.
Speaker 2: Out loud as If you want to listen to us
Speaker 2: every day of the week, and why wouldn't you, You
Speaker 2: can get access to exclusive segments on Tuesdays and Thursdays
Speaker 2: by becoming a Muma mea subscriber. Follow the link in
Speaker 2: the show notes to subscribe, and a big thank you
Speaker 2: to all our current subscribers.
Speaker 1: The topic of career advice has never been more relevant
Speaker 1: because the World Economic Forum has suggested that by twenty
Speaker 1: twenty five, which is just next year, eighty five million
Speaker 1: jobs will disappear.
Speaker 2: But the good news is.
Speaker 1: That ninety seven million new jobs will be created, except
Speaker 1: most of them will just be from robots. But anyway, no,
Speaker 1: I made that bit up. And the rate at which
Speaker 1: people are switching jobs has accelerated dramatically. For example, baby
Speaker 1: boomers worked for approximately six employers during their working life,
Speaker 1: while gen z are predicted to work eighteen jobs across
Speaker 1: six different careers in their lifetime. So if you start
Speaker 1: work at eighteen and finish up at about seventy, you'll
Speaker 1: be changing jobs around once every three years if you're
Speaker 1: a gen Z. So while you think about how long
Speaker 1: it's been since you updated your CV or your LinkedIn profile,
Speaker 1: lor to the point, I'm going to tell you about
Speaker 1: a newsletter being widely shared this week about the best
Speaker 1: career advice nobody will tell you. It was written by
Speaker 1: Faris Staw, who actually also works at Substack. She has
Speaker 1: a newsletter called Things Worth Knowing, but she used to
Speaker 1: be the editor in chief of Cosmo and L in
Speaker 1: the UK, and I'm going to take you through some
Speaker 1: of the bits of her advice and see what you think.
Speaker 1: First bit of advice, don't get a mentor. She said
Speaker 1: that people who are considered mentors are much further along
Speaker 1: in their career than you and won't have much insight
Speaker 1: into the challenges that you'll be experiencing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's true. And I also think that you can
Speaker 3: have a mentor and they don't need to know that
Speaker 3: you're their mentor, you know what I mean, Like, you
Speaker 3: don't have to ask anything of them. You can just
Speaker 3: watch them really close.
Speaker 2: So you know, there's this idea now of a formalized mentor. Yeah,
Speaker 2: situation where you go up to someone and say, will
Speaker 2: you be my man, have a coffee with me every month,
Speaker 2: pass on your wisdom. You're like, not that, No, I.
Speaker 1: Think sometimes you only realize mentors in the review mirror,
Speaker 1: and I would agree. Fara's advice was that you should
Speaker 1: find someone sort of just a couple of rungs up
Speaker 1: on the ladder from where you want to be. But
Speaker 1: my advice is closer to yours, Jesse. You don't need
Speaker 1: an IRL mentor, like someone that you've never met, and
Speaker 1: that you do never meet. They might not even be
Speaker 1: in your industry. They could be your mentor. And then
Speaker 1: sometimes also you'll look back on your career and you'll go, oh,
Speaker 1: that person really impacted.
Speaker 2: It's funny because I have never thought about formalizing mentors.
Speaker 2: But obviously lots of women who've been very influential in
Speaker 2: my career and what I wanted to do, and obviously
Speaker 2: you're one of them, Mayor. But actually several of my
Speaker 2: mentors are younger than me, for sure, and that is
Speaker 2: relevant and important. I think in a changing workplace is
Speaker 2: that often you will learn more from people who are
Speaker 2: more familiar with say the technology, or they're closer to
Speaker 2: how social media works or whatever.
Speaker 6: It is.
Speaker 2: Like, there are people I will pick up the phone
Speaker 2: and call for advice who it's not that they've done
Speaker 2: what I've done and they higher up the ladder. It's
Speaker 2: just that they're smart, they're quick. I'll ask you for advice, Jesse.
Speaker 2: I've got lots of people who I'll call and say
Speaker 2: what should I do about this? And it's not about
Speaker 2: that formalized ladder.
Speaker 3: Yeah, or just watching someone do their job well. If
Speaker 3: you're in an office or if you're at a school
Speaker 3: or if you're working in a hospital, there will be
Speaker 3: people who you're like in awe of how good they
Speaker 3: are at their job, and the closer you watch them,
Speaker 3: I think that can just rub off on you, probably
Speaker 3: more than any pearls of wisdom they could formally give you.
Speaker 4: The next one, she.
Speaker 1: Says, is the perfect job only exists in hindsight. I
Speaker 1: thought that's really interesting. By this, she means that it's
Speaker 1: only by looking back contextually you can see what the
Speaker 1: perfect job is, because she said, people will often say
Speaker 1: the perfect job is when I get to the top
Speaker 1: or when I achieve this high thing. And she said,
Speaker 1: when you get there, often it's not fun at all.
Speaker 1: And I would certainly vouch for that. I've found my
Speaker 1: whole life has been climbing to the top and then going, oh,
Speaker 1: I don't like it up here, and then climbing back down.
Speaker 1: She said, what you'll so often find when you look
Speaker 1: back is that the perfect job for you, or the
Speaker 1: time that you were happiest was on.
Speaker 2: Your way there.
Speaker 1: I would agree with that, like some of my happiest
Speaker 1: times have been when I did not have externally the
Speaker 1: high point markers of success that I have had At
Speaker 1: other times in my career, I was actually a bit lower,
Speaker 1: but it was the perfect job for me. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: agree with that getting to the top should only be
Speaker 1: a consequence, not a goal.
Speaker 2: Sometimes I feel like this kind of advice, though from
Speaker 2: people at the top, is all about saying to young people,
Speaker 2: stop trying to get my child.
Speaker 1: But she's not at the top anymore.
Speaker 2: She was top in a different way.
Speaker 6: You know.
Speaker 2: I think it's interesting because I know what you mean about, Oh,
Speaker 2: the times I loved work the most is when I
Speaker 2: was barely earning anything and just working hard with the
Speaker 2: fun team. If you're at that phase in your career
Speaker 2: where you're barely earning anything and working hard with the
Speaker 2: fun team, you're like, it's not that much fun. Like
Speaker 2: it's fun, but you've got other problems. And I think
Speaker 2: that sometimes when really successful people tell you that you
Speaker 2: don't know how lucky you are right now, it's not
Speaker 2: necessarily helpful. Yeah.
Speaker 3: One of the worst pieces of advice I have come
Speaker 3: across a bit is don't worry about the money. Maybe
Speaker 3: there are times in your career where you can afford
Speaker 3: not to worry about the money in the early days,
Speaker 3: if you're trading it in for really great experience. But
Speaker 3: I have a lot of people in my life who
Speaker 3: didn't worry about the money for a really long time
Speaker 3: and ended up in a place where they were panicking
Speaker 3: because they had a young family, or they couldn't afford
Speaker 3: to live where they wanted to live, or whatever it is.
Speaker 3: I think eventually some decisions have to be made that
Speaker 3: are based on salary. Some of her others were like,
Speaker 3: don't confuse a hobby with a job, Like, just because
Speaker 3: you really like making cakes, don't think that you should
Speaker 3: open a bakery.
Speaker 1: And she also says keep your dreams small. So she's
Speaker 1: talking about dream big, how she hates that whole you
Speaker 1: know Instagram, dream big, you reach for the stars. She's like, no,
Speaker 1: don't reach for the stars. Reach closer, because you probably
Speaker 1: won't reach the stars. And just because you want to
Speaker 1: dream big, that can actually be a real diversion in
Speaker 1: you actually achieving anything because your dreams are too big.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you can do both at once. I
Speaker 3: think you can have the big dream of winning the
Speaker 3: Academy Award or whatever, but then you can also have
Speaker 3: finished my course at the local drama school.
Speaker 2: It keeps moving that goalpost.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: The more really successful people you talk to, they'll tell
Speaker 2: you that is that I thought i'd be happy when
Speaker 2: I got that, and then I got that. Then I
Speaker 2: felt like I ought to want that, and then I
Speaker 2: felt like I ought to want that. I think better
Speaker 2: advice is, actually, don't confuse other people dreams with yours.
Speaker 2: Just because you're really good at cooking, it doesn't mean
Speaker 2: you're going to be Naggi from recipe te eats. Maybe
Speaker 2: you will, but also, like her, dream might not be
Speaker 2: your dream, So I think that that's more important it
Speaker 2: is actually identifying your dream.
Speaker 4: Do you know one that I.
Speaker 1: Hadn't heard before that I thought was interesting that Pharah
Speaker 1: Roade act your salary and I hadn't heard that before,
Speaker 1: And how she explained it was that when you get
Speaker 1: a bigger role, or a pay increase or a promotion,
Speaker 1: you have to change your behavior. You have to be tougher,
Speaker 1: you have to complain less, and you have to often
Speaker 1: work harder.
Speaker 3: What do you think about the advice, because this is
Speaker 3: one I've always taken a bit of issue with, but
Speaker 3: I think it might be my own neuroses. Dressed for
Speaker 3: the job you want, I don't like that advice. It
Speaker 3: annoys me.
Speaker 2: Why why don't you like that advice?
Speaker 3: Ah, because I think it is only ever dish out
Speaker 3: to women. I think it suggests.
Speaker 2: I don't think it's only dished out to women. Really.
Speaker 2: I've got a friend who's a manager, and she once
Speaker 2: called a man in and told him he had to
Speaker 2: stop wearing those shoes, Like those shoes are the shoes
Speaker 2: of a man who has two jobs back on the career.
Speaker 2: Lie and if you want to keep it, like if
Speaker 2: you're going out to meet clients and you're doing that
Speaker 2: and those shoes, forget it. You've got it like that.
Speaker 1: It applies to everyone.
Speaker 3: I think client is different, but I think it's quite superficial.
Speaker 3: And I feel as though if you think that a
Speaker 3: promotion is just on the other side of a blazer
Speaker 3: and a knife handbag, then.
Speaker 1: Maybe it doesn't mean so much anymore. That people are
Speaker 1: more likely to work from home and after the pandemic
Speaker 1: when people wear all kinds of things and there are
Speaker 1: less strict rules. I mean, in some industries there are
Speaker 1: strict rules. I did an Instagram real the other day
Speaker 1: about what I was wearing to work, and I made
Speaker 1: an offhanded comment about, well, most people can wear what
Speaker 1: they want to work and oh I can't.
Speaker 3: Yeah, true true.
Speaker 1: I work in a conservative industry. What I think that
Speaker 1: this does is it talks about self awareness.
Speaker 3: Yeah true, true, true. Because the other one actually that
Speaker 3: grinds my gears a bit is about executive presence and leadership.
Speaker 3: So this is a big thing that people talk about is.
Speaker 1: That's just because you don't have any if you know what.
Speaker 3: And I don't. And I look at people in my
Speaker 3: family who might not be extroverts, but I look at
Speaker 3: my dad in particular, who is a leader. He's an
Speaker 3: assistant principal at a school, and his leadership looks Basically,
Speaker 3: what I'm trying to say is there is one thousand
Speaker 3: different ways to be a great leader. That's true, and
Speaker 3: a lot of businesses and schools and you know whatever,
Speaker 3: bureaucracies need that different hundred.
Speaker 2: She said that level of diversity is absolutely Yeah.
Speaker 1: Jessie, what you're talking about those extroverted leadership styles and
Speaker 1: introverted leadership styles, which I agree with. I think executive
Speaker 1: presence is not synonymous with being an extrovert at all.
Speaker 3: I don't think it is either, But I think that
Speaker 3: sometimes with leadership we try to pretend like there is
Speaker 3: only one way that you've got to have the loudest voice,
Speaker 3: you've got to be wearing the suit jacket, that you've
Speaker 3: got to have a certain way of speaking to people.
Speaker 3: I think we are learning that that is not the case.
Speaker 1: That's true. I know someone who has given executive presence coaching,
Speaker 1: and top of that list was I think you should
Speaker 1: wear shoes in the office. And that might seem like
Speaker 1: a silly thing, but when she would come to work,
Speaker 1: she would just kick her shoes off and walk around barefoot.
Speaker 1: And that was fine when you're really junior. Maybe it's not,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't scream executive presence.
Speaker 2: It doesn't.
Speaker 1: We asked out loud as what the worst career advice
Speaker 1: they'd ever see, and here with some of their answers,
Speaker 1: find a job you love and you'll never work a
Speaker 1: day in your life.
Speaker 2: That's not true. I love my job, people exactly. People,
Speaker 2: you know, some of those big dream jobs are incredibly
Speaker 2: hard work.
Speaker 1: Like trust your gut is also terrible advice. Someone said,
Speaker 1: I have anxiety. My gut is virtually always telling me
Speaker 1: to panic.
Speaker 2: And never do anything.
Speaker 1: And people saying, yeah, don't be afraid to do what
Speaker 1: you love and then money will follow. This could be true,
Speaker 1: but also not true.
Speaker 3: Before we go, I wanted to let the out louders
Speaker 3: in on some exciting news. November is Mother and Maya's
Speaker 3: Month of Move. You might have heard about Move. It
Speaker 3: is Muma Maya's exercise app and starting November first, the
Speaker 3: Move team are going to drop daily workout recommendations to
Speaker 3: keep your company all month long, because there is mental
Speaker 3: load in choosing what workout to do today. So we're
Speaker 3: just gonna tell you which one and guess what might
Speaker 3: be ten minutes, might be fifteen minutes. But what's for
Speaker 3: sure is that there will not be any dish need
Speaker 3: tap and also take.
Speaker 1: Away my decision for tea exactly.
Speaker 3: So if you're wanting to get back into exercise, this
Speaker 3: is a great way to do it. You can just
Speaker 3: focus on what's important, which is feeling great. If you
Speaker 3: want to join the Month of Move, you can get
Speaker 3: thirty dollars off a yearly Muma Mea subscription which gets
Speaker 3: you unlimited access to Move with the code Month of
Speaker 3: out Loud. So that's a reminder that if you are
Speaker 3: a Muma Maya subscriber, you already have access to move.
Speaker 3: The offer is valid till the end of November. All
Speaker 3: the details are in the show notes.
Speaker 2: That's it from us for today, whatever you are in
Speaker 2: the world. Hello to those out louders who've messaged us
Speaker 2: recently from as far afield as Dubai and Saskatchewan in Canada.
Speaker 2: Thank you for letting us in your ears. We appreciate
Speaker 2: you all more than you ever know. See you tomorrow.
Speaker 5: Bye.
Speaker 1: Shout out to any Muma mia subscribers listening. If you
Speaker 1: love the show and want to support us as well,
Speaker 1: subscribing to MoMA Miya is the very best way to
Speaker 1: do so. There is a link in the episode description.