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Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mama Mer acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia out Loud. It's what women are actually talking about.

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Speaker 2: On Monday, the twenty eighth of October. I'm Holly Wayne right,

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Speaker 2: I'm still basking and having given the best ever recommendation

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Speaker 2: ever on Mama My Outloud on Friday, do you very

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Speaker 2: popular know how many out louders are now obsessed with Rivals?

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Speaker 2: Watch Rivals? Me Friedman?

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Speaker 3: Have you started?

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Speaker 1: Hello, I'm mea Friedman. I wasn't on the show on Friday.

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Speaker 1: I didn't listen to the show on Friday, but on

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Speaker 1: the weekend I started watching Rivals and I love it.

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Speaker 3: Oh my goodness. Okay, I am Jesse Stevens. I haven't

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Speaker 3: started watching Rivals yet because I've got a lot of

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Speaker 3: other shows to get through.

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Speaker 4: But it's don't stop.

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Speaker 2: On today's show, one of the most successful women in

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Speaker 2: Australian media has surprised everyone by talking about her drug

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Speaker 2: and alcohol addiction and it reminds us of something we

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Speaker 2: repeatedly choose to forget. Also probably seen the clip of

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Speaker 2: Irish movie star Sirsha Ronan sitting on a chat show couch,

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Speaker 2: shutting everyone up with a truth bomb about women and violence.

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Speaker 2: But what wasn't said? And screw getting a mentor don't

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Speaker 2: dream big and really really don't trust your gut. It's

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Speaker 2: the best career advice that's exactly the opposite of everything

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Speaker 2: you've been told.

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Speaker 3: But first, in case you missed it, Americans are really

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Speaker 3: keen to dress up as Raygun for Halloween. Google Trends

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Speaker 3: has tracked the most popular Halloween costumes, and as it stands,

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Speaker 3: Raygun is coming in at number two, just under Shrunken

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Speaker 3: Head Bob from Beetlejuice. Never heard of Shrunken Head Bob.

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Speaker 1: I'm picturing what a Raygun costume might be and I'm

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Speaker 1: coming up completely blank.

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Speaker 2: It's an Australia track.

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Speaker 3: Suit, you know, Walmart is selling it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Maggie, Australia green and gold tracksuit.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so they are selling a Raygun costume and it's

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Speaker 3: actually really good. And I kept thinking, I really hope

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Speaker 3: that Australia has trademarked some of this because I think

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Speaker 3: it could fix our cost of living crisis if we

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Speaker 3: get all this money from the US. Because every single American,

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Speaker 3: all three hundred million of them, are dressing as Raygun.

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Speaker 3: We could do with that in our public person Anyway.

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Speaker 3: I get a bit confused this time of year because

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Speaker 3: I thought that Halloween was about being scary, and perhaps

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Speaker 3: Raygun fits into that genre, but also in the top ten.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's not very nice.

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Speaker 3: I think that a lot of people were quite confronted

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Speaker 3: by her doubts. I'm a big fan of Raygun, but like,

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Speaker 3: I think it fits in the Halloween category.

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Speaker 1: Do you I was just about to say, do you

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Speaker 1: think you'd be flattered or freaked out if you were Raygun?

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Speaker 3: I think she'd find this fun. She found the memes

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Speaker 3: and stuff fun. She didn't find the cancel uo everyone

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Speaker 3: in an.

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Speaker 1: Apology as fun, not the death threats less fun.

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Speaker 3: Less fun. But among some of the other top training costumes,

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Speaker 3: Sabrina Carpenter is a big one, and also Moodang, the.

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Speaker 2: Viral hip hop.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, how do you dress up as Mudang? I

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Speaker 1: like that?

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Speaker 3: I like that a lot.

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Speaker 1: Untsipig.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Maya, what are you gonna dress up?

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Speaker 5: As well?

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Speaker 1: We've got an all hands meeting at Mamma Maya, and

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Speaker 1: apparently we've got dress ups in here. Oh and our

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Speaker 1: CEO's coming as a vampire as per your instruction.

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Speaker 3: Yes, scary.

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Speaker 4: I don't usually.

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Speaker 1: Dress up, like when I used to take my kids out,

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Speaker 1: did I dress up? I don't think I did, and

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Speaker 1: I think I've given away all our old Halloween stuff

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Speaker 1: because my kids have grown out of it.

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Speaker 2: To your point, Jesse, about whether it's scary or not,

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Speaker 2: obviously I don't like Halloween because I don't like dressing up.

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Speaker 2: That's on the record. However, Halloween is scary when you're

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Speaker 2: a child because as our relationship in Australia with Halloween

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Speaker 2: has matured and become more American, if you're not a

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Speaker 2: little kid, it's now just dress up as whoever you want,

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Speaker 2: which is why it's always interesting what the.

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Speaker 1: Cultural and Sabrina kat is exactly.

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Speaker 2: And so you know, a few years ago there was

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Speaker 2: lots of Donald Trump, but I think this year everybody's

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Speaker 2: decided that's too close to the.

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Speaker 3: Bad MAYA fun fact. Holley and I were at a

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Speaker 3: writer's festival over the weekend and we met a group

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Speaker 3: of out louders who said they had a dress up

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Speaker 3: party recently and the theme was what do you want

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Speaker 3: to be when you grow up and they went as

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Speaker 3: us and they had headphones, they had a microphone. One

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Speaker 3: woman dresses in sparkles. Around that time you said you

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Speaker 3: won't wearing sparkles anymore, which ruined her costume. But I

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Speaker 3: assured her that you have changed your mind and your

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Speaker 3: back to sparkles.

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Speaker 1: That's phenomenal. Is there photographic evidence of this?

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Speaker 3: Well, I saw it, but I didn't get sent it.

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Speaker 3: So I would like to do a call out for

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Speaker 3: that out louder. Can you please put it in the

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Speaker 3: Facebook group or send it to us? We desperately need

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Speaker 3: to see that image.

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Speaker 2: They're wonderful out louders from Adelaide. So if that's you,

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Speaker 2: because maybe more out louder than I don't know.

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Speaker 1: My fallback for fancy dress and this works for Halloween

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Speaker 1: or book week. If it's you, or if it's a child,

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Speaker 1: just get a pen and draw a Harry pottersca on.

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Speaker 2: A forhad done off you go.

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Speaker 5: I'll be checking in to the Betty Ford Center in

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Speaker 5: ranch Home, Miarage. I'll be spending twenty eight days there,

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Speaker 5: voluntarily enrolled in a twelve step program there to treat

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Speaker 5: the substance dependence and drug addiction. I've been able to

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Speaker 5: keep secret for three long four years. Are you okay?

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Speaker 4: I am okay?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that is one of the most successful people in

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Speaker 2: Australian media. Jackie O reading an excerpt from her memoir

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Speaker 2: on The Kyle and JACKIEO Show on Friday, which is

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Speaker 2: a radio show in Sydney and also in Melbourne, and

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Speaker 2: it's one of the biggest radio shows that's ever existed

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Speaker 2: in Australia.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: It was very interesting that Jackie O decided to share

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Speaker 2: that as part of her memoir promotion because for the

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Speaker 2: past year or so a lot has been written about her,

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Speaker 2: some of it by me. I wrote a piece about

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Speaker 2: Jackie's comeback and what it all meant in the context

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Speaker 2: of weight loss and body image back in June last year,

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Speaker 2: because it seemed like suddenly the second chair on the

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Speaker 2: Kyle and JACKIEO Show, one of the most listened to

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Speaker 2: people in the country was everywhere. After being almost invisible

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Speaker 2: there for a while, post divorced the narrative when she

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Speaker 2: was back, and she was back on magazine covers at

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Speaker 2: the kind of social events that get you in the paper.

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Speaker 2: She was launching a business with her best friend. She

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Speaker 2: signed a new deal with Sandaland's worth a reported two

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Speaker 2: hundred million dollars. The narrative was that she'd been sad

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Speaker 2: about her relationship breakdown and deep in pandemic work and

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Speaker 2: motherhood funk, and now she was on a health kick,

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Speaker 2: feeling great and was back out there. Pieces like mine

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Speaker 2: talked about how women feel that they can re emerge

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Speaker 2: from social hibernation when their confidence is back, and yes,

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Speaker 2: when their body looks the way everybody wants it to

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Speaker 2: turns out. I, like everyone else who was talking about this,

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Speaker 2: knew nothing, because, as you just heard this past week,

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Speaker 2: Jackie O read from her book called The Whole Truth

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Speaker 2: about the fact that actually she had been in a

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Speaker 2: pit of addiction to painkillers, to sleeping pills, taboos for years,

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Speaker 2: and that the re emergence that we all witnessed in

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty three was actually about her becoming sober. She'd

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Speaker 2: spent time at the Betty Ford Clinic in America, as

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Speaker 2: she said in that clip, entered a twelve step program,

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Speaker 2: detoxed from her drug addiction and was learning how to

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Speaker 2: live a life without that toxic secret. What we were

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Speaker 2: actually seeing was her coming back to life. I read

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Speaker 2: everything I could about this on the weekend because Jackie

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Speaker 2: fascinates me. She always does. I think she's consistently underrated

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Speaker 2: as the reason that that show is a success, but

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Speaker 2: also because it's yet another reminder that the stories we

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Speaker 2: tell ourselves about what's going on in public people's lives,

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Speaker 2: even the story they're telling us, is rarely accurate. And

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Speaker 2: when we latch onto it as a story to tell

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Speaker 2: ourselves and compare ourselves against, we're never doing that with

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Speaker 2: the full picture in sight, so it's never a good idea.

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Speaker 6: Mia.

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Speaker 2: You interviewed Jackie last year, were you surprised by this?

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Speaker 1: To be honest, MY first reaction was that I was bummed,

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Speaker 1: but I didn't get the screen. Of course, that she

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Speaker 1: didn't tell me, but I completely understand that she wanted

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Speaker 1: to do it in her own time and in her

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Speaker 1: own words, and I really respect that. I was really

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Speaker 1: surprised because I think you, being a little bit generous,

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Speaker 1: I would say whole in terms of the main conversation

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Speaker 1: that's been around jack for the last year, which has

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Speaker 1: been around her weight, but.

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Speaker 2: Not only about her weight. It's been about this hole

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Speaker 2: she's back thing. Right, That's what I very much have

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Speaker 2: been reading, and that's the subtape.

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Speaker 1: I think her weight has been an avatar for that,

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Speaker 1: you know, in terms of the media's portrayal of her.

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Speaker 1: Every single article on the Daily Mail, which you know,

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Speaker 1: writes about her incessantly as they can. She's in the

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Speaker 1: public eye, but it is all focused on her weight.

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Speaker 1: It's all shows off her new pins, shows off her

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Speaker 1: new body, shows off her svelt frame. There was this

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Speaker 1: cultural obsession that Jackie looked very different to the way

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Speaker 1: Jackie's looked for the last ten years. And I think

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Speaker 1: that by talking about is it the divorce? What is it?

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Speaker 4: That sort of.

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Speaker 1: Gave people permission to have the conversation and ask her

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Speaker 1: the questions, often directly, and she denied it. Every time

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Speaker 1: that she was on a zempic she said, no, no,

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Speaker 1: I'm not, I'm not not. You have to believe someone,

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Speaker 1: while at the same time you have to respect that

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Speaker 1: someone's health information is completely their own to share and

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Speaker 1: decide whether they want to make a public or not.

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Speaker 1: So I think what this has done is, as you say,

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Speaker 1: the story we thought we were seeing, which was one

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Speaker 1: about weight loss, and she even has said in the

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Speaker 1: book all her team were running bets on what they

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Speaker 1: thought it was did she have gastric bypass surgery? Did

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Speaker 1: she leave to have cosmetic surgery? Was she on a

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Speaker 1: reality show? Why did she have this absence that she

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Speaker 1: had told everybody was because she was suffering from long

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Speaker 1: COVID and needed time off. Even Kyle in an industry

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Speaker 1: that can't keep secrets very well, I guess I was

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Speaker 1: incredibly impressed and also just impressed that she's done this

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Speaker 1: on her terms. In terms of telling her story.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm really glad that she was afforded that privacy

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Speaker 3: because that would have been really difficult. They explain how

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Speaker 3: the pre recorded message i think went out after she

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Speaker 3: left the country so that you know, she wouldn't be followed,

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Speaker 3: and she had the hat on and the mask and

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Speaker 3: everything so that people wouldn't talk about it before she

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Speaker 3: was ready.

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Speaker 2: And we know that.

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Speaker 3: Happens all the time to celebrities, and that must really

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Speaker 3: hinder recovery or just make it more difficult. So I'm

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Speaker 3: glad that she was able to just disappear and recover.

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Speaker 3: But you're right, Holly, that when someone is on radio

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Speaker 3: for four hours every day, five days a week, that's

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Speaker 3: twenty hours where they are talking, often about their lives.

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Speaker 3: You can feel as though with public figures that you

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Speaker 3: know them very, very intimately, and this just reminds us

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Speaker 3: that we don't. On the days that she wasn't doing radio,

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Speaker 3: she was saying that, you know, she might just sleep.

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Speaker 3: There's women who were living with addiction, which tying into

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Speaker 3: the post COVID world. I know that COVID has exacerbated

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Speaker 3: addiction for a lot of people, alcoholism, substance abuse. But

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Speaker 3: also I was thinking about all of those women and

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Speaker 3: men who are married and have kids and then they

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Speaker 3: split and all of a sudden, and I've heard divorced

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Speaker 3: women talk about this, the loud silence of a house

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Speaker 3: where the child used to be and how you feel that,

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Speaker 3: And she speaks about that as well, which I thought

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Speaker 3: was really generous.

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Speaker 1: And also, you don't have caring responsibilities for you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe half the time or whatever it is when your

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Speaker 1: child is with their other.

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Speaker 3: Parent, how do you feel that time when you're not

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Speaker 3: used to filling that time.

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Speaker 1: But it's not just that, it's you can be out

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Speaker 1: of it because you don't have to take care of someone.

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Speaker 1: So that's why women's addictions are much more likely to

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Speaker 1: be addictions like gambling or overeating, because they are addictions.

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Speaker 1: You can carry on your caring responsibilities, whether it's for

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Speaker 1: children or whoever it's for. But when you are only

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Speaker 1: with your children half the time, you can get away

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Speaker 1: with it a lot in that time because you have

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Speaker 1: no responsibilities. It's like it's all on or off.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, It's also a different narrative about what addiction looks

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Speaker 2: like and who suffers from it, right, Because when I

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Speaker 2: say about the story that we're always told but we

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Speaker 2: happily forget, it's the idea that famous, rich, beautiful, successful,

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Speaker 2: thin people, you know whatever, who live in mansions in

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Speaker 2: beautiful bits of the city are immune from the kind

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Speaker 2: of issues that plague other people. And I'm not suggesting

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Speaker 2: that that means there should be a tiny violin for

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Speaker 2: all the rich and glorious millionaires. But what I mean

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Speaker 2: is it's like, again, we look at people sometimes in

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Speaker 2: that public fear, and we compare ourselves to them and

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Speaker 2: make ourselves feel bad about it, like why aren't I

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Speaker 2: doing so well after my divorce? Or why haven't I

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Speaker 2: managed to get on top of my weight issues or

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Speaker 2: whatever it is? And the sort of fridge magnet cliche

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Speaker 2: of you never know what people are going through. It's

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Speaker 2: just really really true because she was looking like one thing,

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Speaker 2: and really she was going through this really serious addiction.

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Speaker 3: And it challenges the narrative that we have because when

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Speaker 3: people talk about addiction in past tense, it often follows

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Speaker 3: the pattern of a rock bottom. So the rock bottom

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Speaker 3: might be that you were driving your kids around with

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Speaker 3: a high blood alcohol level, or you ended up in hospital,

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Speaker 3: or you lost your job, or you lost your job,

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Speaker 3: something really really significant that you go. And I've heard

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Speaker 3: addicks say they're waiting for the rock bottom period because

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Speaker 3: they're like, I'm functioning. Why would I get this sorted now?

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Speaker 3: I've not had the rock bottom? And in Jackie's story,

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Speaker 3: she wasn't found out. She was still somewhat functioning. What

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Speaker 3: I love is that her best friend this is I

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Speaker 3: think it's also a story of like strong female friendships,

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Speaker 3: because it was her best friend, Gemma that said we're

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Speaker 3: getting you to rehab. But Jackie, which is the story

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Speaker 3: of so many addicts, was like, that feels really over

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Speaker 3: the top because.

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Speaker 1: She hadn't hit rock bottom. And what we learned from

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Speaker 1: the book or that the interview she gave about it,

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Speaker 1: is that what prompted her to tell people was not

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Speaker 1: in her control. It was that the person who'd been

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Speaker 1: supplying her with the prescription medication was no longer able

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Speaker 1: to supply her. So she knew, I'm addicted to all

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Speaker 1: these substances and they're gonna run out. She had like

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Speaker 1: a week or something left. She didn't know how she

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Speaker 1: was going to cope, so it was almost forced upon her.

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Speaker 1: I thought also it was interesting, you know, you say,

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Speaker 1: you think you know these celebrities, but you don't. I mean,

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Speaker 1: everybody's got secrets, for sure, but I would say of

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Speaker 1: Jackie on the scale of famous people, she is so

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Speaker 1: normal and down to earth. And if you just look

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Speaker 1: at pictures of her, particularly in the last year, where

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Speaker 1: she does look incredibly glamorous, and you don't listen to

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Speaker 1: the show and you don't know anything about her story,

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Speaker 1: you might dismiss her as an influencer or all for show.

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Speaker 1: But she's actually very self deprecating, very down to earth,

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Speaker 1: very very hard working, very smart. And that's what I

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Speaker 1: was struck most by, you know, in the interview that

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Speaker 1: I did with her, and on all the occasions I've

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Speaker 1: met her, and I think that what's so good about

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Speaker 1: this also is that she was able to we talk

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Speaker 1: all the time right from a or speak from a scar,

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Speaker 1: not a wound. Recovery is fragile, and when you have

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Speaker 1: to be in recovery while also dealing with the world

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Speaker 1: talking to you and asking you questions and following you

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Speaker 1: and writing about you and speculating about you, I think

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Speaker 1: that that adds a whole layer to it that is

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Speaker 1: not conducive to sustaining that recovery.

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Speaker 3: Or we're still wrestling with what happened during COVID when

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Speaker 3: everyone disappeared and when we all went into our homes,

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Speaker 3: so alcohol use had been going down, and then something

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Speaker 3: happened during COVID that they're still studying, which is that

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Speaker 3: at the very least it didn't continue going down like

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Speaker 3: people's relationships.

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Speaker 1: With Some people drank themselves to death during.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think we're still wrestling with that. But

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Speaker 3: I think it's also important, just when we're talking about this,

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Speaker 3: to acknowledge that there are a lot of people listening

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Speaker 3: and a lot of people in Australia who are living

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Speaker 3: with addiction issues that don't have the resources to go

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Speaker 3: to a really premium rehab facility, to take a month

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Speaker 3: off and to take a month exactly.

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Speaker 2: Right, that's true. But I've seen her copying a bit

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Speaker 2: of credit for that, and that irritates me because of

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Speaker 2: course that's true, and there are real issues here. Why

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Speaker 2: would you criticize her well saying that, saying oh, it's

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Speaker 2: all right for you because you could fly off to

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Speaker 2: the Betty Ford Center, right that. I've seen some of that, right.

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Speaker 2: And the thing is is it is an important point

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Speaker 2: to make, Jesse, because it is really hard for a

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Speaker 2: lot of people to access help for addiction and mental

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Speaker 2: health issues, and we absolutely know that. But she did

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Speaker 2: not have to come clean and inverted commas about this.

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Speaker 2: She's got a memoir full of stories that she could

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Speaker 2: have told without this, and it's speaking for a lot

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Speaker 2: of people who are struggling with this, which I think

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Speaker 2: is hashtag brave. And also you know you're going to

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Speaker 2: open yourself up to that kind of criticism about privilege,

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Speaker 2: So still hashtag brave because ultimately saying me too, I

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Speaker 2: struggle with this to a lot of women similar phase

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Speaker 2: of life or whatever is.

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Speaker 1: A gift after the break the ten words from one

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Speaker 1: very famous woman that silenced all the men on a

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Speaker 1: talk show.

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Speaker 4: Couch all came of it.

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Speaker 2: Finally happened. Beyonce came down from whatever planet of sweet

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Speaker 2: smelling awesomeness she in habits, walked out on stage and

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Speaker 2: endorsed Kamala Harris. While all the Kamala stands among us

357
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Speaker 2: are hoping it's a knockout blow for that guy, we

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Speaker 2: kind of doubt it. Beyonce didn't sing, despite what I'm

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Speaker 2: sure were eye watering offers for her to have come

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Speaker 2: out and belted out freedom. Instead, Here's what she said.

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Speaker 6: I'm not here as a celebrity. I'm not here as

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Speaker 6: a politician. I'm here as a mother, a mother who

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Speaker 6: cares deeply about the world. My children and all of

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Speaker 6: our children live a world where we have the freedom

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Speaker 6: to control our bodies, a world world we're not divided.

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Speaker 6: Our past, our present, our future merge to meet us here.

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Speaker 1: It's no accident that that happened in Texas because it

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Speaker 1: was the first US state to implement a near total

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Speaker 1: abortion man after Roe versus Wade was overturned. That same week,

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Speaker 1: Trump was cosplaying working in McDonald's. So it's quite surreal.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, although there are so many celebrities for Harris, now

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Speaker 2: it feels like every celebrity is for Harris, and I

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Speaker 2: just wonder if it really helps. However, I wish I'd

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Speaker 2: been at that rally. I would literally faint if I

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Speaker 2: was in the presence of Beyonce.

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Speaker 3: I'm a massive, massive Beyonce fan and shameless plug. Tomorrow's

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Speaker 3: episode of canceled all about Beyonce. We go into the

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Speaker 3: Beyonce conspiracy theory? Did he? We had a lot of excellence. Okay,

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Speaker 3: you might have seen the headline this week that Sirsha Ronan,

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Speaker 3: who you might know from Ladybird or Little Women, managed

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Speaker 3: to silence all the men on The Graham Norton Show

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Speaker 3: with just ten words. Over the weekend, footage went viral

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Speaker 3: of Ronan sitting beside Paul school, Eddie Redmain and Denzel

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Speaker 3: Washington and they were talking about the ridiculous ways they

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Speaker 3: might protect themselves in a fight. Paul meschyl Is famously

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Speaker 3: in the Next Gladiator movie is and out next week,

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Speaker 3: and they were talking about how, you know, they were

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Speaker 3: doing training on set and someone said, you can use

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Speaker 3: sort of anything as a weapon, even a phone can

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Speaker 3: be a weapon, and so off that story. This is

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Speaker 3: how the conversation went.

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Speaker 4: Who's actually going to think about that?

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Speaker 6: Though?

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Speaker 4: Someone a text me, I'm not going to go phone.

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Speaker 2: That's a very good point, like the top girls have

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Speaker 2: to think about all the time, Am I right?

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Speaker 6: Ladies?

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Speaker 3: Quickly, this grab was bundled up by news autlets who

399
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Speaker 3: pointed out the issue with Paul Meschal's joke. She was

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Speaker 3: celebrated for and this is a quote gagging men, and

401
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Speaker 3: many women have responded with the ways in which they

402
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Speaker 3: keep themselves safe. Some even said that mescal now gave

403
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Speaker 3: them the ick and even the good guys don't get it.

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Speaker 4: I had a.

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Speaker 3: Different response to this clip, but first I want to

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Speaker 3: know what you made of it.

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Speaker 1: Maya, Well, that's exhausting. I mean, you know, I think

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Speaker 1: she made a good point, but I don't think he

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Speaker 1: was doing anything wrong. And none of the other men

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Speaker 1: on the couch we're doing anything wrong. We live in

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Speaker 1: different worlds, Like women have an awareness that we have

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Speaker 1: had pretty much since we've been sentient of our vulnerability,

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Speaker 1: and this idea of using a phone as a weapon

414
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Speaker 1: or as a diversion, like I'll walk to my car

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Speaker 1: and I'll call my husband if I'm walking to my car,

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Speaker 1: so that I'm on the phone in case anything happens

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Speaker 1: to me. Men can't be expected to necessarily know that.

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Speaker 1: I know that when you talk to men about the

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Speaker 1: fact that, oh yeah, we all just carry our keys

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Speaker 1: between our fingers, and my mum taught me to look

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Speaker 1: in the back seat in my car before I get

422
00:21:03,607 --> 00:21:08,007
Speaker 1: into it after it's been parked. It makes me incensed

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Speaker 1: that women live in a different world to men, and

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Speaker 1: sometimes they get angry that that's the case. But I

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Speaker 1: don't think we need to attack these particular men.

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Speaker 2: I don't think that's what she was doing either. Right,

427
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Speaker 2: it's irritated me those headlines that are like she silenced them,

428
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Speaker 2: she gagged them, she called them out. That's not what

429
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Speaker 2: she was doing. If you watch the clip, she literally

430
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Speaker 2: was saying the most normal thing in the world that

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Speaker 2: lots of women would say. And then she kind of

432
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Speaker 2: senses the vibe shift and she makes a little joke

433
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Speaker 2: and makes a little hand gesture like I don't think

434
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Speaker 2: she was doing that. But anyway, that's not really the point.

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Speaker 3: No, I agree with you, because I like that she

436
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Speaker 3: said that, and she's speaking to how cognizant women are

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Speaker 3: of their own safety, which I think is a valid point.

438
00:21:50,887 --> 00:21:52,887
Speaker 3: But I've said it before and I'll say it again,

439
00:21:52,887 --> 00:21:55,047
Speaker 3: and I definitely thought it when I saw this clip

440
00:21:55,047 --> 00:21:58,047
Speaker 3: being shared by a lot of women. If her and

441
00:21:58,087 --> 00:22:01,167
Speaker 3: Paul were walking down the street together, it is more likely,

442
00:22:01,207 --> 00:22:03,967
Speaker 3: statistically that Paul is going to be attacked. There's a

443
00:22:04,047 --> 00:22:06,487
Speaker 3: name for it. It's called the fear of crime gender paradox,

444
00:22:06,887 --> 00:22:09,247
Speaker 3: and it's that men are commonly less fearful of violence

445
00:22:09,367 --> 00:22:11,807
Speaker 3: crime than women, despite the fact that they are at

446
00:22:11,927 --> 00:22:13,727
Speaker 3: much higher risk of being victims.

447
00:22:14,487 --> 00:22:16,767
Speaker 1: So is that because men have a better chance of

448
00:22:16,767 --> 00:22:21,087
Speaker 1: defending themselves firstly, Secondly, that if a woman is attacked,

449
00:22:21,327 --> 00:22:23,967
Speaker 1: it's likely that it will end either in her sexual

450
00:22:23,967 --> 00:22:25,207
Speaker 1: assault or her death.

451
00:22:25,607 --> 00:22:29,447
Speaker 3: No, this is a thing if a woman is on

452
00:22:29,487 --> 00:22:31,967
Speaker 3: a run, and we know that the media has stories

453
00:22:31,967 --> 00:22:33,767
Speaker 3: that they pick up on and it is based on

454
00:22:33,807 --> 00:22:35,767
Speaker 3: how a woman looks, it is based on her age,

455
00:22:35,807 --> 00:22:38,887
Speaker 3: it is based on the circumstances upon which she died.

456
00:22:38,887 --> 00:22:41,647
Speaker 3: And I learned this when I was hosting true crime conversations.

457
00:22:41,727 --> 00:22:45,207
Speaker 3: There are many cases of men who have been randomly

458
00:22:45,247 --> 00:22:49,647
Speaker 3: attacked that maybe they don't make the headlines, and that

459
00:22:49,727 --> 00:22:53,527
Speaker 3: then perpetuates the fear that a lot of women feel.

460
00:22:53,647 --> 00:22:56,047
Speaker 3: I think the men I know many men.

461
00:22:55,967 --> 00:22:59,727
Speaker 1: Don't fear healthy I don't mean good, I don't mean positive.

462
00:23:00,087 --> 00:23:01,847
Speaker 1: But doesn't it contribute to our survival?

463
00:23:02,127 --> 00:23:05,287
Speaker 3: No, I'd argue that it doesn't. So my brother, for example,

464
00:23:05,567 --> 00:23:07,727
Speaker 3: was walking down the street a few years ago and

465
00:23:07,847 --> 00:23:10,087
Speaker 3: was punched in the face by men much much bigger

466
00:23:10,087 --> 00:23:12,767
Speaker 3: than him. And men might be stronger, but like, if

467
00:23:12,807 --> 00:23:14,407
Speaker 3: you're walking down the street and you're the victim of

468
00:23:14,447 --> 00:23:17,327
Speaker 3: violent crime, you're probably not going to fight back because

469
00:23:17,327 --> 00:23:20,167
Speaker 3: you're in total shock. You've frozen. I've spoken on this

470
00:23:20,207 --> 00:23:22,647
Speaker 3: podcast before about being the victim of a random attack

471
00:23:23,127 --> 00:23:25,327
Speaker 3: and I froze. I had no idea what to do.

472
00:23:25,607 --> 00:23:28,687
Speaker 1: So what's your point. I don't understand that men should

473
00:23:28,687 --> 00:23:31,127
Speaker 1: be more afraid or women should be less afraid.

474
00:23:30,847 --> 00:23:32,607
Speaker 3: Of women should be less afraid. And when I looked

475
00:23:32,647 --> 00:23:35,167
Speaker 3: at that couch, and it wasn't about her, right, it

476
00:23:35,167 --> 00:23:37,327
Speaker 3: wasn't about ron, and it was about the reaction women going,

477
00:23:37,327 --> 00:23:40,527
Speaker 3: men don't know how we live. And I was looking

478
00:23:40,567 --> 00:23:42,727
Speaker 3: at the men on that couch and I went, hang on,

479
00:23:43,407 --> 00:23:46,607
Speaker 3: you don't know the stories of those men. And in fact,

480
00:23:46,727 --> 00:23:49,007
Speaker 3: I know a story about Graham Norton, who's sitting on

481
00:23:49,087 --> 00:23:51,287
Speaker 3: the end there, who's a gay man, and his likelihood

482
00:23:51,287 --> 00:23:54,087
Speaker 3: of being attacked randomly on a street is significantly higher

483
00:23:54,087 --> 00:23:56,447
Speaker 3: than anyone else on this couch. When he was in

484
00:23:56,487 --> 00:23:58,647
Speaker 3: his twenties, he was a victim of a mugging and

485
00:23:58,687 --> 00:24:00,847
Speaker 3: he was violently stabbed and he was left to die.

486
00:24:01,487 --> 00:24:04,367
Speaker 3: That would have impacted how he walks through the world

487
00:24:04,727 --> 00:24:06,447
Speaker 3: as well as I know that it does for men

488
00:24:06,487 --> 00:24:08,967
Speaker 3: who are the victims of violent crime. And the reason

489
00:24:08,967 --> 00:24:10,887
Speaker 3: why I get my back up a little bit when

490
00:24:10,887 --> 00:24:14,487
Speaker 3: I talk about women who say I carry my keys,

491
00:24:14,807 --> 00:24:17,087
Speaker 3: we do carry our phones to try and protect themselves.

492
00:24:17,687 --> 00:24:19,567
Speaker 3: I don't do any of those things. And the reason

493
00:24:19,607 --> 00:24:21,607
Speaker 3: I don't is because I was attacked on the street

494
00:24:21,687 --> 00:24:23,967
Speaker 3: and none of those things would have helped me. They

495
00:24:24,327 --> 00:24:28,247
Speaker 3: didn't make me feel safer. And in fact, sometimes being

496
00:24:28,327 --> 00:24:29,767
Speaker 3: hyper vigilant about.

497
00:24:29,487 --> 00:24:30,767
Speaker 1: You change your behavior at all.

498
00:24:31,207 --> 00:24:34,167
Speaker 3: I don't think I have not, And in fact, for

499
00:24:34,207 --> 00:24:37,287
Speaker 3: a while I was very scared when I walk past

500
00:24:37,327 --> 00:24:40,607
Speaker 3: a man. I feel my body. Happened the other day

501
00:24:40,607 --> 00:24:42,687
Speaker 3: and someone kind of darts in front of me, and

502
00:24:42,727 --> 00:24:46,167
Speaker 3: I feel my whole nervous system going to overdrive. But

503
00:24:46,247 --> 00:24:49,847
Speaker 3: I think it's almost like, no, I'm not going to

504
00:24:49,887 --> 00:24:51,887
Speaker 3: not walk home. I walk home from the gym at night,

505
00:24:52,327 --> 00:24:53,847
Speaker 3: I get on the train at night, I do all

506
00:24:53,887 --> 00:24:55,647
Speaker 3: those things. I'm not going to change my behavior because

507
00:24:55,647 --> 00:24:58,407
Speaker 3: I had that experience. I feel quite like indignant about it.

508
00:24:58,447 --> 00:25:00,487
Speaker 2: And I agree with you about all that, right, I

509
00:25:00,527 --> 00:25:02,167
Speaker 2: feel the same way. I feel like a lot of

510
00:25:02,207 --> 00:25:04,327
Speaker 2: the stuff that's about making women feel afraid to be

511
00:25:04,327 --> 00:25:06,007
Speaker 2: out in the world is not helpful to us at all.

512
00:25:06,407 --> 00:25:11,167
Speaker 2: But I feel so defensive. You start this conversation right,

513
00:25:11,727 --> 00:25:14,247
Speaker 2: because you know, when was it, how long ago was

514
00:25:14,287 --> 00:25:16,927
Speaker 2: it when there was that awful spate of violence against

515
00:25:16,927 --> 00:25:19,167
Speaker 2: women and it seemed to break through into a national

516
00:25:19,167 --> 00:25:21,927
Speaker 2: conversation always. Yeah, you know, there was a point this

517
00:25:22,007 --> 00:25:24,487
Speaker 2: year where there were a couple of horrimen Yeah, a

518
00:25:24,487 --> 00:25:28,127
Speaker 2: couple of horrific attacks, and we started to talk about

519
00:25:28,127 --> 00:25:30,207
Speaker 2: it in a big way, and people were taking to

520
00:25:30,247 --> 00:25:32,767
Speaker 2: the streets and it was discussion all the time, and

521
00:25:32,887 --> 00:25:37,967
Speaker 2: I heard some very prominent men saying exactly what you're saying, Jesse.

522
00:25:38,567 --> 00:25:41,967
Speaker 2: They were like, yes, that's awful, but do you know

523
00:25:42,127 --> 00:25:44,327
Speaker 2: women that we are much more likely than you to

524
00:25:44,367 --> 00:25:47,327
Speaker 2: be attacked, And do you know women that male violence

525
00:25:47,327 --> 00:25:50,007
Speaker 2: affects men more than it affects women, And it in

526
00:25:50,247 --> 00:25:54,247
Speaker 2: senses me because it's like a wilful misunderstanding of the

527
00:25:54,247 --> 00:25:56,927
Speaker 2: fact that you're absolutely right about the fact that a

528
00:25:56,967 --> 00:25:58,887
Speaker 2: man walking past a group of young men on the

529
00:25:58,927 --> 00:26:01,687
Speaker 2: street has more right to be worried in a way

530
00:26:01,727 --> 00:26:03,847
Speaker 2: than women, and it probably is, and many men live

531
00:26:03,887 --> 00:26:06,887
Speaker 2: with that fear. But women are attacked and killed all

532
00:26:06,927 --> 00:26:10,127
Speaker 2: the time by men in their homes and in their lives,

533
00:26:10,447 --> 00:26:14,167
Speaker 2: and the idea that we are somehow inflating our risk

534
00:26:14,327 --> 00:26:18,727
Speaker 2: of violence to victimize ourselves makes me so mad.

535
00:26:18,727 --> 00:26:19,007
Speaker 4: I think.

536
00:26:19,087 --> 00:26:21,807
Speaker 3: So that's a really good point, right, because for women,

537
00:26:22,407 --> 00:26:25,527
Speaker 3: you are more likely to be inside your own home

538
00:26:25,607 --> 00:26:28,567
Speaker 3: by someone who claims to love you than you are

539
00:26:28,607 --> 00:26:29,487
Speaker 3: walking down the street.

540
00:26:29,567 --> 00:26:32,767
Speaker 2: So so male violence is a massive problem for women.

541
00:26:32,847 --> 00:26:35,167
Speaker 2: And every time I hear that defense, it sounds to

542
00:26:35,167 --> 00:26:37,167
Speaker 2: me like they're telling us to shut up and sit down,

543
00:26:37,567 --> 00:26:40,727
Speaker 2: when actually, you know, what everybody's talking about today is

544
00:26:40,767 --> 00:26:43,887
Speaker 2: the interview with Lily James's parents on sixty Minutes last night.

545
00:26:43,927 --> 00:26:46,127
Speaker 2: She was the young woman killed at work one year

546
00:26:46,127 --> 00:26:48,687
Speaker 2: ago this month. She was at her job at a

547
00:26:48,687 --> 00:26:50,967
Speaker 2: school in Sydney and a young man that she'd been

548
00:26:51,047 --> 00:26:54,247
Speaker 2: dating for five weeks and had stopped dating, came to

549
00:26:54,327 --> 00:26:57,167
Speaker 2: her workplace and murdered her brutally, then sent her dad

550
00:26:57,207 --> 00:26:59,247
Speaker 2: a text message saying this is Lily, come and pick

551
00:26:59,287 --> 00:27:02,767
Speaker 2: me up, and then took his own life. Horrible, horrible

552
00:27:02,807 --> 00:27:06,967
Speaker 2: story on every level. But that's how male violence affects

553
00:27:06,967 --> 00:27:09,447
Speaker 2: women in all kinds of ways. Is often within our

554
00:27:09,487 --> 00:27:12,087
Speaker 2: home with men that we know. And every time I

555
00:27:12,167 --> 00:27:15,207
Speaker 2: hear that defense of like, but men, but men, but men,

556
00:27:15,327 --> 00:27:18,007
Speaker 2: I'm just like, you don't get it. We're living with

557
00:27:18,207 --> 00:27:19,527
Speaker 2: very different realities.

558
00:27:19,927 --> 00:27:21,847
Speaker 3: But isn't the point that we're not.

559
00:27:22,047 --> 00:27:23,327
Speaker 2: I think we absolutely are.

560
00:27:23,767 --> 00:27:26,807
Speaker 3: But this is a thing, right if statistically a man

561
00:27:26,847 --> 00:27:29,727
Speaker 3: is more likely to walk down the street and be attacked,

562
00:27:29,767 --> 00:27:32,407
Speaker 3: which we know, and we saw it with the King hit,

563
00:27:32,767 --> 00:27:34,127
Speaker 3: you know, example.

564
00:27:33,767 --> 00:27:35,727
Speaker 2: And we saw the reaction to that, and laws were

565
00:27:35,807 --> 00:27:39,087
Speaker 2: changed and an entire city was altered in reaction to that.

566
00:27:39,247 --> 00:27:39,847
Speaker 2: I'm with you.

567
00:27:39,927 --> 00:27:44,487
Speaker 3: I'm with you. My reaction is there is something oppressive

568
00:27:45,007 --> 00:27:50,847
Speaker 3: about telling women to change their behavior or like perpetuating

569
00:27:50,847 --> 00:27:53,207
Speaker 3: this idea that we should be always on high alert.

570
00:27:53,287 --> 00:27:55,687
Speaker 3: That's suggesting that the street isn't ours to own. And

571
00:27:55,727 --> 00:27:58,607
Speaker 3: so that's the thing I feel like I rebel against

572
00:27:58,727 --> 00:28:01,527
Speaker 3: is that men are still.

573
00:28:01,607 --> 00:28:05,407
Speaker 1: But why can't we be on alert and in the street.

574
00:28:05,687 --> 00:28:09,567
Speaker 1: I don't stay home, but when I'm at I'm on alert.

575
00:28:09,647 --> 00:28:11,367
Speaker 1: And there are things that I do, and there are

576
00:28:11,407 --> 00:28:13,847
Speaker 1: things that I have taught my daughter.

577
00:28:13,687 --> 00:28:16,367
Speaker 3: To do, even teaching our daughters. And I'm in the

578
00:28:16,367 --> 00:28:18,847
Speaker 3: same position that the idea of something ever happening to

579
00:28:18,887 --> 00:28:20,847
Speaker 3: my daughter is my worst nightmare in the whole world.

580
00:28:21,327 --> 00:28:23,447
Speaker 3: But telling her to walk around with keys between her

581
00:28:24,007 --> 00:28:27,327
Speaker 3: like is that freedom? Is that true freedom to feel

582
00:28:27,367 --> 00:28:31,407
Speaker 3: as though you are waiting. And in fact, when I

583
00:28:31,487 --> 00:28:34,047
Speaker 3: was attacked on the street, I remember thinking, this is

584
00:28:34,087 --> 00:28:36,447
Speaker 3: when it happens. Like I'd been waiting my whole life

585
00:28:36,487 --> 00:28:39,127
Speaker 3: for that moment because I'd been prepared for it. I'm

586
00:28:39,127 --> 00:28:40,127
Speaker 3: not sure my brother had.

587
00:28:40,407 --> 00:28:44,287
Speaker 1: Sarah Silverman has a joke quote Mark's joke about this

588
00:28:44,527 --> 00:28:47,127
Speaker 1: where she talks about you know, hearing the footsteps behind

589
00:28:47,207 --> 00:28:50,927
Speaker 1: you and as a woman thinking, oh, this is my

590
00:28:51,007 --> 00:28:55,367
Speaker 1: sexual assault. Yeah, it's come now, Like in some ways,

591
00:28:55,647 --> 00:28:58,407
Speaker 1: it's the expectation that it'll probably happen to you. It's

592
00:28:58,407 --> 00:29:01,847
Speaker 1: a question of when. I also understand that there's theory

593
00:29:02,367 --> 00:29:06,447
Speaker 1: and ideology and then there's actual practice. And I've had

594
00:29:06,527 --> 00:29:09,447
Speaker 1: arguments about this all the time, often with younger women

595
00:29:10,207 --> 00:29:14,607
Speaker 1: about well do we talk about the connection between, for example,

596
00:29:15,407 --> 00:29:18,007
Speaker 1: different things that will put a woman at higher risk.

597
00:29:18,407 --> 00:29:20,247
Speaker 3: We don't do it to men. And I do think

598
00:29:20,287 --> 00:29:23,367
Speaker 3: the statistics matter because they tell us that the man

599
00:29:23,447 --> 00:29:25,407
Speaker 3: who hurts you is probably not hiding in a bush

600
00:29:25,487 --> 00:29:25,847
Speaker 3: right now.

601
00:29:25,887 --> 00:29:26,287
Speaker 1: Exactly.

602
00:29:26,447 --> 00:29:29,047
Speaker 2: It's more useful to talk to your daughter if she is.

603
00:29:29,207 --> 00:29:30,447
Speaker 1: But I talked to her about both.

604
00:29:30,487 --> 00:29:33,087
Speaker 2: Of course you do. But the problem making to your son,

605
00:29:33,287 --> 00:29:35,567
Speaker 2: and also the problem about the end result of that

606
00:29:36,007 --> 00:29:39,607
Speaker 2: don't do anything dangerous is like, what, so, don't walk home?

607
00:29:39,647 --> 00:29:42,007
Speaker 2: Get an uber, but what about the uber driver? Don't

608
00:29:42,047 --> 00:29:43,887
Speaker 2: go out in it? Like the end result is us

609
00:29:43,927 --> 00:29:46,847
Speaker 2: locked in our houses, not going out alone, which is

610
00:29:46,847 --> 00:29:51,127
Speaker 2: a mostageous absolutely not reflective of where the risk is.

611
00:29:51,607 --> 00:29:53,607
Speaker 2: And so I get the urge of like, well, I

612
00:29:53,647 --> 00:29:56,727
Speaker 2: could have had my keys, I could have not taken

613
00:29:56,767 --> 00:30:00,327
Speaker 2: that route home. But also that leads you to never

614
00:30:00,367 --> 00:30:01,087
Speaker 2: going anywhere.

615
00:30:01,247 --> 00:30:05,207
Speaker 1: It kind of it's about needing the illusion of I'm

616
00:30:05,247 --> 00:30:08,207
Speaker 1: going to do whatever is in my power to do,

617
00:30:08,447 --> 00:30:11,887
Speaker 1: and maybe it's useless, maybe it's a prophylactic. What else

618
00:30:11,887 --> 00:30:16,367
Speaker 1: can I do other than just rely on the goodwill

619
00:30:16,767 --> 00:30:18,287
Speaker 1: of a man not to attack me?

620
00:30:18,687 --> 00:30:21,247
Speaker 3: Or is it when women are attacked or when women

621
00:30:21,287 --> 00:30:24,167
Speaker 3: are the victims of violence, the stories that we tell

622
00:30:24,607 --> 00:30:26,967
Speaker 3: often suggests that they could have done more to prevent it.

623
00:30:27,247 --> 00:30:30,487
Speaker 3: There's a gendered thing that's like, well, if she wasn't

624
00:30:30,567 --> 00:30:32,247
Speaker 3: wearing that, or if when a man is attacked on

625
00:30:32,247 --> 00:30:33,847
Speaker 3: the street, we never talk about what he was wearing.

626
00:30:34,127 --> 00:30:36,207
Speaker 3: We never talk about whether or not he was drinking.

627
00:30:36,767 --> 00:30:37,847
Speaker 2: He should have been out at night.

628
00:30:38,007 --> 00:30:40,367
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I don't think we talk about women like

629
00:30:40,407 --> 00:30:42,647
Speaker 1: that anymore. Maybe I'm being knaved, but I just don't.

630
00:30:42,687 --> 00:30:46,927
Speaker 1: I think that we've progressed as a society light years

631
00:30:46,967 --> 00:30:50,127
Speaker 1: from the way we used to think. We understand about

632
00:30:50,207 --> 00:30:52,087
Speaker 1: there being no such thing as a perfect victim. We

633
00:30:52,207 --> 00:30:55,007
Speaker 1: understand the fact that what a woman does is not

634
00:30:55,087 --> 00:30:57,967
Speaker 1: necessarily going to impact But even if it's just the

635
00:30:58,047 --> 00:31:06,647
Speaker 1: illusion of protection, I just don't see the harm.

636
00:31:04,207 --> 00:31:05,807
Speaker 2: Out loud as If you want to listen to us

637
00:31:05,887 --> 00:31:08,247
Speaker 2: every day of the week, and why wouldn't you, You

638
00:31:08,287 --> 00:31:12,007
Speaker 2: can get access to exclusive segments on Tuesdays and Thursdays

639
00:31:12,167 --> 00:31:15,527
Speaker 2: by becoming a Muma mea subscriber. Follow the link in

640
00:31:15,567 --> 00:31:18,367
Speaker 2: the show notes to subscribe, and a big thank you

641
00:31:18,527 --> 00:31:23,327
Speaker 2: to all our current subscribers.

642
00:31:25,607 --> 00:31:28,847
Speaker 1: The topic of career advice has never been more relevant

643
00:31:28,847 --> 00:31:32,087
Speaker 1: because the World Economic Forum has suggested that by twenty

644
00:31:32,127 --> 00:31:35,407
Speaker 1: twenty five, which is just next year, eighty five million

645
00:31:35,487 --> 00:31:36,727
Speaker 1: jobs will disappear.

646
00:31:37,327 --> 00:31:38,407
Speaker 2: But the good news is.

647
00:31:38,607 --> 00:31:43,527
Speaker 1: That ninety seven million new jobs will be created, except

648
00:31:43,527 --> 00:31:46,167
Speaker 1: most of them will just be from robots. But anyway, no,

649
00:31:46,247 --> 00:31:48,527
Speaker 1: I made that bit up. And the rate at which

650
00:31:48,567 --> 00:31:52,207
Speaker 1: people are switching jobs has accelerated dramatically. For example, baby

651
00:31:52,207 --> 00:31:56,767
Speaker 1: boomers worked for approximately six employers during their working life,

652
00:31:56,967 --> 00:32:00,807
Speaker 1: while gen z are predicted to work eighteen jobs across

653
00:32:00,847 --> 00:32:04,607
Speaker 1: six different careers in their lifetime. So if you start

654
00:32:04,767 --> 00:32:08,327
Speaker 1: work at eighteen and finish up at about seventy, you'll

655
00:32:08,367 --> 00:32:12,127
Speaker 1: be changing jobs around once every three years if you're

656
00:32:12,167 --> 00:32:15,007
Speaker 1: a gen Z. So while you think about how long

657
00:32:15,007 --> 00:32:17,927
Speaker 1: it's been since you updated your CV or your LinkedIn profile,

658
00:32:18,007 --> 00:32:19,727
Speaker 1: lor to the point, I'm going to tell you about

659
00:32:19,727 --> 00:32:22,567
Speaker 1: a newsletter being widely shared this week about the best

660
00:32:22,647 --> 00:32:25,967
Speaker 1: career advice nobody will tell you. It was written by

661
00:32:26,007 --> 00:32:29,807
Speaker 1: Faris Staw, who actually also works at Substack. She has

662
00:32:29,807 --> 00:32:32,527
Speaker 1: a newsletter called Things Worth Knowing, but she used to

663
00:32:32,527 --> 00:32:35,407
Speaker 1: be the editor in chief of Cosmo and L in

664
00:32:35,447 --> 00:32:37,967
Speaker 1: the UK, and I'm going to take you through some

665
00:32:38,007 --> 00:32:40,127
Speaker 1: of the bits of her advice and see what you think.

666
00:32:40,927 --> 00:32:45,087
Speaker 1: First bit of advice, don't get a mentor. She said

667
00:32:45,127 --> 00:32:48,887
Speaker 1: that people who are considered mentors are much further along

668
00:32:48,887 --> 00:32:51,527
Speaker 1: in their career than you and won't have much insight

669
00:32:51,887 --> 00:32:54,247
Speaker 1: into the challenges that you'll be experiencing.

670
00:32:54,647 --> 00:32:56,767
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's true. And I also think that you can

671
00:32:56,887 --> 00:32:58,327
Speaker 3: have a mentor and they don't need to know that

672
00:32:58,367 --> 00:33:00,487
Speaker 3: you're their mentor, you know what I mean, Like, you

673
00:33:00,487 --> 00:33:01,847
Speaker 3: don't have to ask anything of them. You can just

674
00:33:01,887 --> 00:33:02,647
Speaker 3: watch them really close.

675
00:33:02,727 --> 00:33:06,527
Speaker 2: So you know, there's this idea now of a formalized mentor. Yeah,

676
00:33:06,567 --> 00:33:08,607
Speaker 2: situation where you go up to someone and say, will

677
00:33:08,647 --> 00:33:10,967
Speaker 2: you be my man, have a coffee with me every month,

678
00:33:11,007 --> 00:33:14,047
Speaker 2: pass on your wisdom. You're like, not that, No, I.

679
00:33:13,967 --> 00:33:16,687
Speaker 1: Think sometimes you only realize mentors in the review mirror,

680
00:33:16,887 --> 00:33:19,247
Speaker 1: and I would agree. Fara's advice was that you should

681
00:33:19,327 --> 00:33:22,167
Speaker 1: find someone sort of just a couple of rungs up

682
00:33:22,167 --> 00:33:24,927
Speaker 1: on the ladder from where you want to be. But

683
00:33:25,047 --> 00:33:27,447
Speaker 1: my advice is closer to yours, Jesse. You don't need

684
00:33:27,447 --> 00:33:30,727
Speaker 1: an IRL mentor, like someone that you've never met, and

685
00:33:30,767 --> 00:33:32,287
Speaker 1: that you do never meet. They might not even be

686
00:33:32,327 --> 00:33:34,847
Speaker 1: in your industry. They could be your mentor. And then

687
00:33:34,927 --> 00:33:37,207
Speaker 1: sometimes also you'll look back on your career and you'll go, oh,

688
00:33:37,247 --> 00:33:39,407
Speaker 1: that person really impacted.

689
00:33:39,407 --> 00:33:43,527
Speaker 2: It's funny because I have never thought about formalizing mentors.

690
00:33:43,527 --> 00:33:45,927
Speaker 2: But obviously lots of women who've been very influential in

691
00:33:45,967 --> 00:33:47,647
Speaker 2: my career and what I wanted to do, and obviously

692
00:33:47,647 --> 00:33:50,447
Speaker 2: you're one of them, Mayor. But actually several of my

693
00:33:50,687 --> 00:33:53,167
Speaker 2: mentors are younger than me, for sure, and that is

694
00:33:53,247 --> 00:33:56,647
Speaker 2: relevant and important. I think in a changing workplace is

695
00:33:56,687 --> 00:33:59,487
Speaker 2: that often you will learn more from people who are

696
00:33:59,487 --> 00:34:02,287
Speaker 2: more familiar with say the technology, or they're closer to

697
00:34:02,767 --> 00:34:04,087
Speaker 2: how social media works or whatever.

698
00:34:04,127 --> 00:34:04,447
Speaker 6: It is.

699
00:34:04,967 --> 00:34:06,567
Speaker 2: Like, there are people I will pick up the phone

700
00:34:06,607 --> 00:34:09,127
Speaker 2: and call for advice who it's not that they've done

701
00:34:09,367 --> 00:34:11,607
Speaker 2: what I've done and they higher up the ladder. It's

702
00:34:11,687 --> 00:34:14,927
Speaker 2: just that they're smart, they're quick. I'll ask you for advice, Jesse.

703
00:34:15,007 --> 00:34:16,807
Speaker 2: I've got lots of people who I'll call and say

704
00:34:17,047 --> 00:34:19,647
Speaker 2: what should I do about this? And it's not about

705
00:34:19,687 --> 00:34:21,807
Speaker 2: that formalized ladder.

706
00:34:21,647 --> 00:34:24,127
Speaker 3: Yeah, or just watching someone do their job well. If

707
00:34:24,127 --> 00:34:26,327
Speaker 3: you're in an office or if you're at a school

708
00:34:26,447 --> 00:34:28,447
Speaker 3: or if you're working in a hospital, there will be

709
00:34:28,487 --> 00:34:30,887
Speaker 3: people who you're like in awe of how good they

710
00:34:30,887 --> 00:34:32,687
Speaker 3: are at their job, and the closer you watch them,

711
00:34:32,687 --> 00:34:34,647
Speaker 3: I think that can just rub off on you, probably

712
00:34:34,687 --> 00:34:37,927
Speaker 3: more than any pearls of wisdom they could formally give you.

713
00:34:38,207 --> 00:34:38,927
Speaker 4: The next one, she.

714
00:34:38,887 --> 00:34:42,087
Speaker 1: Says, is the perfect job only exists in hindsight. I

715
00:34:42,087 --> 00:34:45,247
Speaker 1: thought that's really interesting. By this, she means that it's

716
00:34:45,287 --> 00:34:49,847
Speaker 1: only by looking back contextually you can see what the

717
00:34:49,887 --> 00:34:53,047
Speaker 1: perfect job is, because she said, people will often say

718
00:34:53,087 --> 00:34:55,167
Speaker 1: the perfect job is when I get to the top

719
00:34:55,567 --> 00:34:58,167
Speaker 1: or when I achieve this high thing. And she said,

720
00:34:58,367 --> 00:35:01,207
Speaker 1: when you get there, often it's not fun at all.

721
00:35:01,327 --> 00:35:04,127
Speaker 1: And I would certainly vouch for that. I've found my

722
00:35:04,167 --> 00:35:06,487
Speaker 1: whole life has been climbing to the top and then going, oh,

723
00:35:06,527 --> 00:35:08,327
Speaker 1: I don't like it up here, and then climbing back down.

724
00:35:08,607 --> 00:35:10,247
Speaker 1: She said, what you'll so often find when you look

725
00:35:10,287 --> 00:35:12,807
Speaker 1: back is that the perfect job for you, or the

726
00:35:12,807 --> 00:35:15,287
Speaker 1: time that you were happiest was on.

727
00:35:15,167 --> 00:35:15,887
Speaker 2: Your way there.

728
00:35:17,247 --> 00:35:20,167
Speaker 1: I would agree with that, like some of my happiest

729
00:35:20,207 --> 00:35:24,687
Speaker 1: times have been when I did not have externally the

730
00:35:25,167 --> 00:35:27,687
Speaker 1: high point markers of success that I have had At

731
00:35:27,727 --> 00:35:30,527
Speaker 1: other times in my career, I was actually a bit lower,

732
00:35:30,687 --> 00:35:33,167
Speaker 1: but it was the perfect job for me. Yeah, I

733
00:35:33,207 --> 00:35:35,167
Speaker 1: agree with that getting to the top should only be

734
00:35:35,207 --> 00:35:36,447
Speaker 1: a consequence, not a goal.

735
00:35:36,887 --> 00:35:39,367
Speaker 2: Sometimes I feel like this kind of advice, though from

736
00:35:39,407 --> 00:35:42,647
Speaker 2: people at the top, is all about saying to young people,

737
00:35:42,687 --> 00:35:43,847
Speaker 2: stop trying to get my child.

738
00:35:44,487 --> 00:35:45,887
Speaker 1: But she's not at the top anymore.

739
00:35:45,967 --> 00:35:48,087
Speaker 2: She was top in a different way.

740
00:35:48,127 --> 00:35:48,287
Speaker 6: You know.

741
00:35:48,567 --> 00:35:52,207
Speaker 2: I think it's interesting because I know what you mean about, Oh,

742
00:35:52,287 --> 00:35:54,727
Speaker 2: the times I loved work the most is when I

743
00:35:54,847 --> 00:35:57,247
Speaker 2: was barely earning anything and just working hard with the

744
00:35:57,327 --> 00:35:59,807
Speaker 2: fun team. If you're at that phase in your career

745
00:35:59,807 --> 00:36:02,287
Speaker 2: where you're barely earning anything and working hard with the

746
00:36:02,287 --> 00:36:05,487
Speaker 2: fun team, you're like, it's not that much fun. Like

747
00:36:05,527 --> 00:36:07,767
Speaker 2: it's fun, but you've got other problems. And I think

748
00:36:07,767 --> 00:36:11,007
Speaker 2: that sometimes when really successful people tell you that you

749
00:36:11,047 --> 00:36:13,047
Speaker 2: don't know how lucky you are right now, it's not

750
00:36:13,367 --> 00:36:15,127
Speaker 2: necessarily helpful. Yeah.

751
00:36:15,167 --> 00:36:17,287
Speaker 3: One of the worst pieces of advice I have come

752
00:36:17,327 --> 00:36:19,927
Speaker 3: across a bit is don't worry about the money. Maybe

753
00:36:19,967 --> 00:36:22,367
Speaker 3: there are times in your career where you can afford

754
00:36:22,407 --> 00:36:24,407
Speaker 3: not to worry about the money in the early days,

755
00:36:24,407 --> 00:36:27,927
Speaker 3: if you're trading it in for really great experience. But

756
00:36:28,887 --> 00:36:31,927
Speaker 3: I have a lot of people in my life who

757
00:36:31,927 --> 00:36:33,767
Speaker 3: didn't worry about the money for a really long time

758
00:36:33,807 --> 00:36:37,207
Speaker 3: and ended up in a place where they were panicking

759
00:36:37,287 --> 00:36:41,807
Speaker 3: because they had a young family, or they couldn't afford

760
00:36:41,847 --> 00:36:43,607
Speaker 3: to live where they wanted to live, or whatever it is.

761
00:36:43,687 --> 00:36:46,687
Speaker 3: I think eventually some decisions have to be made that

762
00:36:46,807 --> 00:36:49,647
Speaker 3: are based on salary. Some of her others were like,

763
00:36:49,807 --> 00:36:52,247
Speaker 3: don't confuse a hobby with a job, Like, just because

764
00:36:52,247 --> 00:36:56,247
Speaker 3: you really like making cakes, don't think that you should

765
00:36:56,367 --> 00:36:57,167
Speaker 3: open a bakery.

766
00:36:58,327 --> 00:37:01,287
Speaker 1: And she also says keep your dreams small. So she's

767
00:37:01,327 --> 00:37:04,647
Speaker 1: talking about dream big, how she hates that whole you

768
00:37:04,647 --> 00:37:08,607
Speaker 1: know Instagram, dream big, you reach for the stars. She's like, no,

769
00:37:08,687 --> 00:37:13,047
Speaker 1: don't reach for the stars. Reach closer, because you probably

770
00:37:13,047 --> 00:37:16,447
Speaker 1: won't reach the stars. And just because you want to

771
00:37:16,727 --> 00:37:20,007
Speaker 1: dream big, that can actually be a real diversion in

772
00:37:20,047 --> 00:37:22,847
Speaker 1: you actually achieving anything because your dreams are too big.

773
00:37:23,087 --> 00:37:23,447
Speaker 6: Yeah.

774
00:37:23,527 --> 00:37:25,407
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you can do both at once. I

775
00:37:25,487 --> 00:37:27,447
Speaker 3: think you can have the big dream of winning the

776
00:37:27,487 --> 00:37:30,127
Speaker 3: Academy Award or whatever, but then you can also have

777
00:37:30,647 --> 00:37:32,887
Speaker 3: finished my course at the local drama school.

778
00:37:33,447 --> 00:37:35,207
Speaker 2: It keeps moving that goalpost.

779
00:37:35,327 --> 00:37:35,527
Speaker 1: Right.

780
00:37:35,567 --> 00:37:37,967
Speaker 2: The more really successful people you talk to, they'll tell

781
00:37:38,007 --> 00:37:39,727
Speaker 2: you that is that I thought i'd be happy when

782
00:37:39,767 --> 00:37:41,167
Speaker 2: I got that, and then I got that. Then I

783
00:37:41,167 --> 00:37:42,807
Speaker 2: felt like I ought to want that, and then I

784
00:37:42,807 --> 00:37:44,767
Speaker 2: felt like I ought to want that. I think better

785
00:37:44,807 --> 00:37:48,047
Speaker 2: advice is, actually, don't confuse other people dreams with yours.

786
00:37:48,287 --> 00:37:50,007
Speaker 2: Just because you're really good at cooking, it doesn't mean

787
00:37:50,007 --> 00:37:52,407
Speaker 2: you're going to be Naggi from recipe te eats. Maybe

788
00:37:52,407 --> 00:37:54,847
Speaker 2: you will, but also, like her, dream might not be

789
00:37:54,887 --> 00:37:56,807
Speaker 2: your dream, So I think that that's more important it

790
00:37:56,847 --> 00:37:59,007
Speaker 2: is actually identifying your dream.

791
00:37:59,127 --> 00:37:59,887
Speaker 4: Do you know one that I.

792
00:37:59,847 --> 00:38:02,127
Speaker 1: Hadn't heard before that I thought was interesting that Pharah

793
00:38:02,207 --> 00:38:05,447
Speaker 1: Roade act your salary and I hadn't heard that before,

794
00:38:05,487 --> 00:38:08,487
Speaker 1: And how she explained it was that when you get

795
00:38:08,487 --> 00:38:11,487
Speaker 1: a bigger role, or a pay increase or a promotion,

796
00:38:11,767 --> 00:38:15,167
Speaker 1: you have to change your behavior. You have to be tougher,

797
00:38:15,327 --> 00:38:18,487
Speaker 1: you have to complain less, and you have to often

798
00:38:18,527 --> 00:38:19,127
Speaker 1: work harder.

799
00:38:19,447 --> 00:38:21,487
Speaker 3: What do you think about the advice, because this is

800
00:38:21,527 --> 00:38:23,927
Speaker 3: one I've always taken a bit of issue with, but

801
00:38:24,047 --> 00:38:26,807
Speaker 3: I think it might be my own neuroses. Dressed for

802
00:38:26,847 --> 00:38:29,087
Speaker 3: the job you want, I don't like that advice. It

803
00:38:29,127 --> 00:38:29,687
Speaker 3: annoys me.

804
00:38:29,767 --> 00:38:31,327
Speaker 2: Why why don't you like that advice?

805
00:38:31,527 --> 00:38:35,447
Speaker 3: Ah, because I think it is only ever dish out

806
00:38:35,487 --> 00:38:39,567
Speaker 3: to women. I think it suggests.

807
00:38:39,367 --> 00:38:41,447
Speaker 2: I don't think it's only dished out to women. Really.

808
00:38:41,527 --> 00:38:43,327
Speaker 2: I've got a friend who's a manager, and she once

809
00:38:43,407 --> 00:38:44,967
Speaker 2: called a man in and told him he had to

810
00:38:45,327 --> 00:38:48,887
Speaker 2: stop wearing those shoes, Like those shoes are the shoes

811
00:38:48,927 --> 00:38:51,807
Speaker 2: of a man who has two jobs back on the career.

812
00:38:51,887 --> 00:38:53,727
Speaker 2: Lie and if you want to keep it, like if

813
00:38:53,727 --> 00:38:55,567
Speaker 2: you're going out to meet clients and you're doing that

814
00:38:55,607 --> 00:38:57,607
Speaker 2: and those shoes, forget it. You've got it like that.

815
00:38:57,767 --> 00:38:58,967
Speaker 1: It applies to everyone.

816
00:38:59,127 --> 00:39:03,527
Speaker 3: I think client is different, but I think it's quite superficial.

817
00:39:04,167 --> 00:39:06,527
Speaker 3: And I feel as though if you think that a

818
00:39:06,567 --> 00:39:08,847
Speaker 3: promotion is just on the other side of a blazer

819
00:39:08,847 --> 00:39:11,007
Speaker 3: and a knife handbag, then.

820
00:39:11,767 --> 00:39:15,647
Speaker 1: Maybe it doesn't mean so much anymore. That people are

821
00:39:15,687 --> 00:39:18,007
Speaker 1: more likely to work from home and after the pandemic

822
00:39:18,207 --> 00:39:20,287
Speaker 1: when people wear all kinds of things and there are

823
00:39:20,367 --> 00:39:23,167
Speaker 1: less strict rules. I mean, in some industries there are

824
00:39:23,207 --> 00:39:25,647
Speaker 1: strict rules. I did an Instagram real the other day

825
00:39:25,847 --> 00:39:28,327
Speaker 1: about what I was wearing to work, and I made

826
00:39:28,327 --> 00:39:30,767
Speaker 1: an offhanded comment about, well, most people can wear what

827
00:39:30,807 --> 00:39:33,447
Speaker 1: they want to work and oh I can't.

828
00:39:33,607 --> 00:39:34,327
Speaker 3: Yeah, true true.

829
00:39:34,407 --> 00:39:37,407
Speaker 1: I work in a conservative industry. What I think that

830
00:39:37,447 --> 00:39:39,367
Speaker 1: this does is it talks about self awareness.

831
00:39:39,607 --> 00:39:42,487
Speaker 3: Yeah true, true, true. Because the other one actually that

832
00:39:42,647 --> 00:39:46,887
Speaker 3: grinds my gears a bit is about executive presence and leadership.

833
00:39:47,007 --> 00:39:50,047
Speaker 3: So this is a big thing that people talk about is.

834
00:39:50,047 --> 00:39:52,607
Speaker 1: That's just because you don't have any if you know what.

835
00:39:52,527 --> 00:39:55,047
Speaker 3: And I don't. And I look at people in my

836
00:39:55,567 --> 00:39:59,047
Speaker 3: family who might not be extroverts, but I look at

837
00:39:59,047 --> 00:40:00,767
Speaker 3: my dad in particular, who is a leader. He's an

838
00:40:00,767 --> 00:40:05,247
Speaker 3: assistant principal at a school, and his leadership looks Basically,

839
00:40:05,287 --> 00:40:07,207
Speaker 3: what I'm trying to say is there is one thousand

840
00:40:07,247 --> 00:40:09,367
Speaker 3: different ways to be a great leader. That's true, and

841
00:40:09,407 --> 00:40:12,087
Speaker 3: a lot of businesses and schools and you know whatever,

842
00:40:12,207 --> 00:40:14,367
Speaker 3: bureaucracies need that different hundred.

843
00:40:14,447 --> 00:40:17,207
Speaker 2: She said that level of diversity is absolutely Yeah.

844
00:40:16,967 --> 00:40:20,927
Speaker 1: Jessie, what you're talking about those extroverted leadership styles and

845
00:40:21,007 --> 00:40:24,687
Speaker 1: introverted leadership styles, which I agree with. I think executive

846
00:40:24,727 --> 00:40:27,967
Speaker 1: presence is not synonymous with being an extrovert at all.

847
00:40:28,087 --> 00:40:29,527
Speaker 3: I don't think it is either, But I think that

848
00:40:29,607 --> 00:40:33,167
Speaker 3: sometimes with leadership we try to pretend like there is

849
00:40:33,247 --> 00:40:35,407
Speaker 3: only one way that you've got to have the loudest voice,

850
00:40:35,407 --> 00:40:37,487
Speaker 3: you've got to be wearing the suit jacket, that you've

851
00:40:37,527 --> 00:40:39,527
Speaker 3: got to have a certain way of speaking to people.

852
00:40:39,927 --> 00:40:43,367
Speaker 3: I think we are learning that that is not the case.

853
00:40:43,567 --> 00:40:47,207
Speaker 1: That's true. I know someone who has given executive presence coaching,

854
00:40:47,447 --> 00:40:49,767
Speaker 1: and top of that list was I think you should

855
00:40:49,767 --> 00:40:52,207
Speaker 1: wear shoes in the office. And that might seem like

856
00:40:52,247 --> 00:40:55,167
Speaker 1: a silly thing, but when she would come to work,

857
00:40:55,367 --> 00:40:58,287
Speaker 1: she would just kick her shoes off and walk around barefoot.

858
00:40:58,887 --> 00:41:02,127
Speaker 1: And that was fine when you're really junior. Maybe it's not,

859
00:41:02,607 --> 00:41:04,927
Speaker 1: but it doesn't scream executive presence.

860
00:41:05,167 --> 00:41:05,647
Speaker 2: It doesn't.

861
00:41:05,767 --> 00:41:08,247
Speaker 1: We asked out loud as what the worst career advice

862
00:41:08,447 --> 00:41:10,887
Speaker 1: they'd ever see, and here with some of their answers,

863
00:41:11,327 --> 00:41:13,047
Speaker 1: find a job you love and you'll never work a

864
00:41:13,127 --> 00:41:13,887
Speaker 1: day in your life.

865
00:41:14,007 --> 00:41:17,367
Speaker 2: That's not true. I love my job, people exactly. People,

866
00:41:17,487 --> 00:41:19,927
Speaker 2: you know, some of those big dream jobs are incredibly

867
00:41:19,967 --> 00:41:20,487
Speaker 2: hard work.

868
00:41:20,887 --> 00:41:23,967
Speaker 1: Like trust your gut is also terrible advice. Someone said,

869
00:41:24,007 --> 00:41:26,167
Speaker 1: I have anxiety. My gut is virtually always telling me

870
00:41:26,167 --> 00:41:26,847
Speaker 1: to panic.

871
00:41:26,607 --> 00:41:27,407
Speaker 2: And never do anything.

872
00:41:28,527 --> 00:41:31,367
Speaker 1: And people saying, yeah, don't be afraid to do what

873
00:41:31,407 --> 00:41:34,327
Speaker 1: you love and then money will follow. This could be true,

874
00:41:34,367 --> 00:41:35,847
Speaker 1: but also not true.

875
00:41:36,487 --> 00:41:38,807
Speaker 3: Before we go, I wanted to let the out louders

876
00:41:38,807 --> 00:41:42,607
Speaker 3: in on some exciting news. November is Mother and Maya's

877
00:41:42,807 --> 00:41:45,327
Speaker 3: Month of Move. You might have heard about Move. It

878
00:41:45,407 --> 00:41:50,007
Speaker 3: is Muma Maya's exercise app and starting November first, the

879
00:41:50,087 --> 00:41:53,607
Speaker 3: Move team are going to drop daily workout recommendations to

880
00:41:53,687 --> 00:41:56,607
Speaker 3: keep your company all month long, because there is mental

881
00:41:56,647 --> 00:41:59,527
Speaker 3: load in choosing what workout to do today. So we're

882
00:41:59,567 --> 00:42:01,647
Speaker 3: just gonna tell you which one and guess what might

883
00:42:01,687 --> 00:42:04,007
Speaker 3: be ten minutes, might be fifteen minutes. But what's for

884
00:42:04,047 --> 00:42:06,687
Speaker 3: sure is that there will not be any dish need

885
00:42:06,807 --> 00:42:08,287
Speaker 3: tap and also take.

886
00:42:08,087 --> 00:42:09,887
Speaker 1: Away my decision for tea exactly.

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00:42:09,967 --> 00:42:11,967
Speaker 3: So if you're wanting to get back into exercise, this

888
00:42:12,047 --> 00:42:13,567
Speaker 3: is a great way to do it. You can just

889
00:42:13,647 --> 00:42:17,207
Speaker 3: focus on what's important, which is feeling great. If you

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00:42:17,247 --> 00:42:20,167
Speaker 3: want to join the Month of Move, you can get

891
00:42:20,407 --> 00:42:23,807
Speaker 3: thirty dollars off a yearly Muma Mea subscription which gets

892
00:42:23,847 --> 00:42:26,807
Speaker 3: you unlimited access to Move with the code Month of

893
00:42:26,887 --> 00:42:28,927
Speaker 3: out Loud. So that's a reminder that if you are

894
00:42:28,967 --> 00:42:31,687
Speaker 3: a Muma Maya subscriber, you already have access to move.

895
00:42:32,167 --> 00:42:34,327
Speaker 3: The offer is valid till the end of November. All

896
00:42:34,367 --> 00:42:36,007
Speaker 3: the details are in the show notes.

897
00:42:36,247 --> 00:42:38,247
Speaker 2: That's it from us for today, whatever you are in

898
00:42:38,287 --> 00:42:40,767
Speaker 2: the world. Hello to those out louders who've messaged us

899
00:42:40,767 --> 00:42:45,167
Speaker 2: recently from as far afield as Dubai and Saskatchewan in Canada.

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00:42:45,287 --> 00:42:47,527
Speaker 2: Thank you for letting us in your ears. We appreciate

901
00:42:47,567 --> 00:42:50,327
Speaker 2: you all more than you ever know. See you tomorrow.

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00:42:50,447 --> 00:42:51,207
Speaker 5: Bye.

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00:42:52,047 --> 00:42:55,327
Speaker 1: Shout out to any Muma mia subscribers listening. If you

904
00:42:55,447 --> 00:42:57,847
Speaker 1: love the show and want to support us as well,

905
00:42:58,007 --> 00:43:00,527
Speaker 1: subscribing to MoMA Miya is the very best way to

906
00:43:00,567 --> 00:43:02,967
Speaker 1: do so. There is a link in the episode description.