Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia out Loud. It's what women are actually talking
Speaker 2: about on Wednesday, the twelfth of June.
Speaker 3: I'm Holly Waynwright, I'm MEA Friedman.
Speaker 4: And I'm m Vernam filling in for Jesse today. You
Speaker 4: might have heard me over on our daily entertainment podcast
Speaker 4: A spill.
Speaker 2: An on today's show. Because Jesse is away and you're here, am,
Speaker 2: I am taking the opportunity to talk about royals.
Speaker 4: You roll us over.
Speaker 2: Welcome to my roundup that includes a wedding, a nasty divorce,
Speaker 2: and a whole new kategait. Also the gray Rock theory
Speaker 2: that might just be the answer for getting through conversations
Speaker 2: with difficult people, and the return of the latsmag But first,
Speaker 2: Mia Friedman.
Speaker 3: In case you missed it, there's a really awful story
Speaker 3: around today about fifty female students from Bacchus Marsh Grammar,
Speaker 3: which is a high school norwest of Melbourne, have reported
Speaker 3: fake nude images of them circulating online that have been
Speaker 3: made with AI. So they're explicit images, but with the
Speaker 3: faces of girls from the school. A teenager has been arrested,
Speaker 3: a teenage boy and since released. After these images of girls,
Speaker 3: who were thought to be in years nine to twelve
Speaker 3: were circulated through the school and presumably outsided as well.
Speaker 3: The principle of the school, Andrew Neil, has released a statement.
Speaker 3: He has said it's appalling. It is something that strikes
Speaker 3: to the heart of students, particularly girls growing.
Speaker 2: Up at this age.
Speaker 3: They should be able to learn and go about their
Speaker 3: business without this kind of nonsense. These things are not funny,
Speaker 3: They are basically vicious and therefore they should be dealt
Speaker 3: with appropriately. It's behavior that needs to be dealt with
Speaker 3: in as firm a way as possible.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 3: Victorian police are continuing to investigate this matter, but I
Speaker 3: think this is just really the start of what we're
Speaker 3: going to see because we've spoken before about celebrities like
Speaker 3: Taylor Swift who have had pornographic images made of her
Speaker 3: a fake using AI. Back in the olden days, I
Speaker 3: had someone when I was a magazine editor who cut
Speaker 3: out images of naked women and photos of my head
Speaker 3: and did it making a bit of a collage and
Speaker 3: sent it to me, which I had to go to
Speaker 3: the police. So I guess terrible people have been doing
Speaker 3: this since the beginning of time, but now it's just
Speaker 3: so easy.
Speaker 4: It's my biggest fear having my nudes leaked, and the
Speaker 4: fact that they can still be leaked even though they're
Speaker 4: not me but looks like me, because these day images
Speaker 4: look so real. That is just beyond And it's these
Speaker 4: young girls, like these are children that it's happening to.
Speaker 2: I think the e Safety Commissioner was talking about it
Speaker 2: today and saying, how this is obviously the beginning of
Speaker 2: this technology, as you've said me, so the law has
Speaker 2: to figure out how to handle it because they're not
Speaker 2: pictures that have been stolen of somebody. They've been entirely created,
Speaker 2: so they're fake. But as she was saying, she's saying,
Speaker 2: this is going to have tragic consequences one day, because
Speaker 2: it will happen to someone who's got such vulnerable mental
Speaker 2: health that it'll go the way that a lot of
Speaker 2: these awful online bullying campaigns go, and we'll lose people,
Speaker 2: and they've got to figure out how to handle it.
Speaker 3: I don't think you can, like, how do you stop
Speaker 3: people from being dickheads.
Speaker 2: One of the ways you can stop children from being
Speaker 2: dickheads is making sure that it is incredibly clear how
Speaker 2: serious it is and what serious consequences there will be,
Speaker 2: because I think if it's a bit of lolls and
Speaker 2: you might just get a slap on the wrist and
Speaker 2: are telling off, that's a completely different ballgame to if
Speaker 2: criminal charges might be brought.
Speaker 4: Tell you how, it's time for Holly's royal roundup now, As.
Speaker 2: I said, So, Jesse's off in Ireland or somewhere somewhere glamorous. Actually,
Speaker 2: I saw her at a castle, so maybe she's changing
Speaker 2: her mind a princess. Yes, maybe she's changing her mind
Speaker 2: about how she feels about royal stories. Anyway, So I
Speaker 2: bribed me or and em in our meeting to let
Speaker 2: me deliver a quick royal roundup. And when Jesse gets back,
Speaker 2: I'm just going to tell her it's a regular now. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's just the way it rolls.
Speaker 4: I'll back here.
Speaker 2: So three things, are you ready? Yes? Number one? Four
Speaker 2: hundred people watched a very very posh man called Huey
Speaker 2: get married on Saturday. He's the Duke of Westminster and
Speaker 2: he's only thirty three. His calculated wealth is just under
Speaker 2: nine billion pounds, even though he doesn't have a job
Speaker 2: that interesting, isn't Britain great. I'm sure he has a
Speaker 2: job managing all his money, maybe just sitting in one
Speaker 2: of his castles, like piling it up into really neat
Speaker 2: little piles. But anyway, I digress. He married a woman
Speaker 2: called Olivia Henson who did used to have a job.
Speaker 2: She was an account manager and eco importer, but she
Speaker 2: just gave it up to focus on being the Duchess
Speaker 2: of Westminster. Yeah, it's a lot of work, it is,
Speaker 2: so the money doesn't just stack itself anyway. Huey is
Speaker 2: bestie's with both Prince William and Prince Harry. Now he's
Speaker 2: closer to Prince Harry's age, so he might be a
Speaker 2: bit tired of with him. But he is so in
Speaker 2: a circle that he's the godfather to both William's son
Speaker 2: George and Harry's son Archie, and so in a circle
Speaker 2: that Prince William, who is the heir to the throne,
Speaker 2: was just a lowly usher at the wedding.
Speaker 3: There were two things about this wedding that caught my eye.
Speaker 3: One was the hideous shoes that the bride was wearing
Speaker 3: They were blue suede shoes, but they were really like clumpy,
Speaker 3: flatform platform, ugly blue shoes. And as she walked, she
Speaker 3: was wearing a beautiful dress and as she walked you
Speaker 3: could see the ugly shoes. Anyway, I did.
Speaker 4: It was an O to Elvis. You don't know.
Speaker 2: I thought she was trying to be cool. Wrong shoe theory.
Speaker 3: Well, it's the something blue, something borrowed, whatever. But wrong shoe. Oh,
Speaker 3: wrong shoe theory. Yeah, No, I think we need to
Speaker 3: draw a line when it comes to weddings. But I
Speaker 3: also loved this bit about Prince William being in usher.
Speaker 3: Does that when he had to show people to their
Speaker 3: seats and handout programs.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I had to know who they were. He
Speaker 2: had to know who they were. He had a cheat
Speaker 2: sheet and he was like.
Speaker 4: Oh yes, Duke of so and so. I love that.
Speaker 2: Anyway, the reason everybody got excited about this wedding, apart
Speaker 2: from the fact that you know, richest man in Britain
Speaker 2: all the rest of it, an eligible bachelor blah blah
Speaker 2: blah and really hot really yeah ooh, it's because obviously
Speaker 2: Hughie had to pick between Harry and William his two
Speaker 2: besties about which one could and he chose William, which
Speaker 2: maybe you would because he's the heir to the throne
Speaker 2: and Harry has a deal with Netflix, But now you know.
Speaker 3: That he chose. Was Harry actually invited.
Speaker 2: Rumors on the Insiders Royal Insiders say that Harry and
Speaker 2: Meghan were invited but tactfully decided not to come because
Speaker 2: if you believe that side of the story, they didn't
Speaker 2: want to pull focus, particularly from Olivia and her shoes.
Speaker 3: Well, I also think that William had homeground advantage. I mean,
Speaker 3: he was there, and also he's going to be the king,
Speaker 3: so but I think it's important to note that they
Speaker 3: were both invited and that William was the one.
Speaker 2: Who won, because I think we're at the point where
Speaker 2: they cannot be not the same wedding together. They might
Speaker 2: drink too many champagnes, pull off their ties and wrestle
Speaker 2: on the floor, and it has happened before.
Speaker 3: And who's hold is that? It's only one of them
Speaker 3: wrote a book, that's true, exposing all the secrets of
Speaker 3: the other.
Speaker 4: But it's elder boy privilege. The other four, like elder
Speaker 4: siblings always get privileged.
Speaker 3: Like my kids, whoever wasn't a dick.
Speaker 4: No, it's it's the elder sibling. Like at my cousin's wedding,
Speaker 4: she wanted a bridesmaid from each family, and because I'm
Speaker 4: older than my sister, I got chosen from my family.
Speaker 4: So second siblings syndrome. I just have to deal.
Speaker 3: That was at the end of the wedding story.
Speaker 2: That's the end of the wedding.
Speaker 3: She looks a lot like Kate.
Speaker 2: Oh, she looks exactly like Kate.
Speaker 3: I got to Kate's school.
Speaker 2: Everyone's saying she followed a Kate pass because in some
Speaker 2: ways it would be better to marry the Duke of
Speaker 2: Westminster than it would be to marry the Prince of Wales.
Speaker 2: Less scrutiny, you know, more money, all the rest of it.
Speaker 3: You know how the Kardashians are like a certain aesthetic
Speaker 3: among a certain group of women. Is there are the
Speaker 3: same aesthetic among posh English people? Because remember the woman
Speaker 3: that Prince William was rumored to be having an affair with,
Speaker 3: whose name I can't pronounce some things. Ye, she looked
Speaker 3: exactly like Kate too. So it's kind of like a
Speaker 3: very outdoorsy, long, glossy hair, wholesome wholesome. Yes, it's slim, wholesome, very.
Speaker 2: Skinny, very respectable. So yes, she followed the Kate playbooks.
Speaker 2: She went to the same school as Kate. She then
Speaker 2: went to a UNI that isn't like Oxford or Cambridge,
Speaker 2: like an intimidating UNI, but like a good, fancy UNI.
Speaker 2: She went to Trinity in Ireland, which is where Normal
Speaker 2: People was filmed, and everyone was like, who's going to
Speaker 2: marry him? Who's going to marry him? And apparently she
Speaker 2: came from nowhere, Tatler wrote, she flew like a night owl,
Speaker 2: silently into the most coveted bedroom in Britain. She cut
Speaker 2: off as well, she's pushed, but she's not titled. But
Speaker 2: she's from good stock.
Speaker 3: She's not a lady.
Speaker 2: I've certainly just got a serious upgrade, like in terms
Speaker 2: of lifestyle.
Speaker 4: It's like they all learned from Kate's mum, like how
Speaker 4: to be queen, and they're like, how to be Kate.
Speaker 2: So she's been Kate's perhaps better than Kate. Speaking of Kate,
Speaker 2: we have learned nothing. Pulling out my wagging finger. Several
Speaker 2: media organizations, including The Cut and now me, although I'm
Speaker 2: not a very organized organization for.
Speaker 4: Her own organization, wain Wright Organizations.
Speaker 2: I noticed that Kate Watch has been somewhat reinstated since
Speaker 2: it's been three months that we found out that Kate
Speaker 2: was undergoing cancer treatment. And as we know, the internet
Speaker 2: resets its memory after three months and everything that went
Speaker 2: before is wiped and all is new again. She did
Speaker 2: not attend something she was meant to attend. She didn't
Speaker 2: go to the wedding for starters, which is not that surprising,
Speaker 2: and apparently William didn't really go to the party, but
Speaker 2: also something military. She is the honorary colonel of the
Speaker 2: Irish Guards, which is one of the cool things.
Speaker 4: Actual, How you say that word? I was reading it
Speaker 4: in the script and I couldn't figure it out. Colonel.
Speaker 3: You don't know how to say colonel?
Speaker 4: What I do just learn?
Speaker 3: I guess you wouldn't say it. A lot said you
Speaker 3: didn't have Colonel Sanders, who is the dude from Kentucky
Speaker 3: Fried Chicken.
Speaker 4: He's just the.
Speaker 2: Dude on Kentucky Fried Chicken. To me, Kate is a
Speaker 2: colonel of the Irish Guards, and she's like a corn colonel.
Speaker 2: She's meant to be part of a big MARCHI festival
Speaker 2: of soldiers in hats this week called the Trooping of
Speaker 2: the Collar. She'd usually be there inspecting them. She wasn't,
Speaker 2: of course, and she sent a letter saying she was
Speaker 2: really sorry she couldn't be there, and it sparked a
Speaker 2: whole new round of like, when's she going to come?
Speaker 2: When are we going to see her again? When she's
Speaker 2: coming back to work? And a story this week about
Speaker 2: how she's just promoted her stylist to be her new
Speaker 2: top assistant, and so everyone's like, oh, preparation for her
Speaker 2: coming back, And I'm like, people, have we learned nothing?
Speaker 3: No, No, I'm going to push back on you there,
Speaker 3: Harley dot com. Because when there's someone you know and
Speaker 3: we don't know her but we know of her, and
Speaker 3: someone who's a public figure and they're going through something tough.
Speaker 2: You want to check in. This one is really good
Speaker 2: at you bringing it home with some more really good
Speaker 2: information about really silly rich people. The Earl Spencer that
Speaker 2: is Princess Diana's brother, Charles. He has burnt into Generation
Speaker 2: x's memory as the guy who made the speech at
Speaker 2: her funeral where he ripped the royal family a new
Speaker 2: one right.
Speaker 3: But has since been revealed to be a bit of
Speaker 3: a dick.
Speaker 4: Oh he's a massive dick by the Crown Moss disappointing.
Speaker 2: He is getting his third divorce and he's hired the
Speaker 2: same divorce lawyer who represented Charles when he divorced Diana.
Speaker 2: She is known as a demon the She's widely regarded
Speaker 2: to be the reason why Anna lost her title. Her
Speaker 2: hr h Right she is and I love this so much. Right,
Speaker 2: you will love her. In fact, you'll love her so much.
Speaker 2: I'm going to show you a picture of her. I
Speaker 2: feel like this is a betrayal. This is it, right?
Speaker 2: I mean, can you imagine You're like, well, they she
Speaker 2: did a right number on my sister. This woman, I
Speaker 2: want her too. She is called Baroness Shackleton of Belgravier.
Speaker 4: I love that.
Speaker 2: And she does all the royal divorces. So she represented Charles,
Speaker 2: she represented Andrew. She's also represented Paul McCartney, Madonna and
Speaker 2: Liam Gallagha.
Speaker 4: She sounds like a Harry Potter.
Speaker 2: You will love her. She's wearing oh my god, she
Speaker 2: looks amazing MEA's jacket.
Speaker 3: She's wearing like a military jacks, scarves and a hat.
Speaker 3: She's also terrifying.
Speaker 2: She has a look on her face, that is like,
Speaker 2: fuck with me.
Speaker 4: Not when I hear the word baroness, that's exactly what
Speaker 4: I think of.
Speaker 2: And Belgravier, which is the poshest bit of London, can't
Speaker 2: even set foot in there unless you're worth a bajillion dollars.
Speaker 2: So she Charles has just hired her to get rid
Speaker 2: of his third wife. I agree. I think it's a betrayal,
Speaker 2: but fun anyway. Now you're up to date with a
Speaker 2: lot of the meaningless information about people who have too
Speaker 2: much money and yet live rent free. In my mind,
Speaker 2: are we betting this segment in? Are we?
Speaker 4: Is it coming back? I'm down down to as we've established.
Speaker 1: The notion that you have to forgive in order to
Speaker 1: move on in your life. That's outdated. Therapy, gray rocking
Speaker 1: and going no contact is literally the only way to
Speaker 1: avoid the manipulation all of it.
Speaker 4: Have you heard of the gray rock theory?
Speaker 5: No?
Speaker 1: Okay?
Speaker 4: Well? New York Times author Christina Karen wants you to
Speaker 4: know what it is. So imagine there's a small gray
Speaker 4: rock in your hand. It's a bit boring, a bit dull.
Speaker 4: It looks the same on all sides. Are you really
Speaker 4: bored right now?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 4: That's the whole point. I've got you, I've got you.
Speaker 4: So there's a theory that if you adopt the qualities
Speaker 4: of a gray rock, then you will be able to
Speaker 4: repel the argumentative and antagonistic people in your life who
Speaker 4: thrive off conflict.
Speaker 2: Oh I do know this, So make it like a rock.
Speaker 3: Like a rock.
Speaker 4: So the idea of being a gray rock is to
Speaker 4: not kind of like push people away from you. You're
Speaker 4: still kind of engaging in a conversation, but you're not
Speaker 4: oversharing because when you overshare to the wrong people, they
Speaker 4: use that information against you.
Speaker 3: So if you ask Siri to show you the opposite
Speaker 3: of me in any conversation, they will show you a
Speaker 3: gray rock. And that's why I'm so captivated by this technique,
Speaker 3: because the gray rock technique is something that I really
Speaker 3: feel like I need to master, particularly in this age
Speaker 3: of social media, particularly currently, when there's so many people
Speaker 3: screaming so many things. Arguing with them just never works,
Speaker 3: It just never works. And so I've taken this approach
Speaker 3: with trolls for a really long time. Be a gray rock.
Speaker 3: It's a little bit like Michelle Obama, when they go low.
Speaker 4: You go high.
Speaker 2: Yeah, go as high as a gray rock, except they
Speaker 2: sink to the bottom of the thing. I've actually got
Speaker 2: a friend she'd be listening to this. In fact, hell
Speaker 2: her a gray rock friend who is without knowing this
Speaker 2: was what it's called, is what she's employing in like,
Speaker 2: she's going through a really awful breakup, marriage breakup. Her
Speaker 2: whole strategy is do less, do not engage yes, because apparently,
Speaker 2: like psychopaths and narcissists are attracted to drama and they
Speaker 2: can't stand being bored. So if you refuse to feed
Speaker 2: them what they want, yes, like in terms of text messages,
Speaker 2: you know, if they want to get into a fight
Speaker 2: on text messages or something, then being very very calm
Speaker 2: and very boring and very straight and only engaging with
Speaker 2: like factual exchange and everything is a very effective strategy.
Speaker 2: And I would love to be more gray rock to
Speaker 2: me because one thing that I've realized, I think I'll
Speaker 2: can remember we talked about this on the show or Not.
Speaker 2: Soft power is about saying less, not more. I have
Speaker 2: always and I think women are, without wanting to just
Speaker 2: generalize enormously, we rush to feel silences. Yes, we justify ourselves.
Speaker 2: We say I'd like that but is this and this
Speaker 2: and this and this and this are all the reasons
Speaker 2: why I shouldn't get it, whereas being a gray rock
Speaker 2: is more like I'm just going to say what I
Speaker 2: need and then I'm going to curl up in a
Speaker 2: little gray ball.
Speaker 3: Well, what I like is that there isn't curling up
Speaker 3: in the gray rock.
Speaker 2: It's not being a gray feather, that's true, or be
Speaker 2: like a let yourself be kiy.
Speaker 3: The technique is not don't be a gray piece of paper,
Speaker 3: don't be a gray feather. Don't like just blow with
Speaker 3: the wind and let the other person blow you over
Speaker 3: stand your ground, but just be boring and take the
Speaker 3: wind out of their sails by being boring?
Speaker 2: Do you reckon that? This is the technique that you
Speaker 2: might use even by accept when you don't want to
Speaker 2: talk about something like how do you engage if someone
Speaker 2: wants to engage you in a conversation that you do
Speaker 2: not want to be engaged.
Speaker 4: I'm a big yapper like I cannot ever be a
Speaker 4: gray rock. I want to be, but I actually get
Speaker 4: offended when someone's gray rocking me because I'm not there
Speaker 4: to argue with them, which I think that article was
Speaker 4: speculating that people just want to argue. I just love
Speaker 4: a gossip, sesshon. I just want all the information. And
Speaker 4: I've been gray rocked by a friend, which I feel
Speaker 4: is so annoying in a way where I would like
Speaker 4: ask about her life, like how's your partner? And then
Speaker 4: she doesn't want to give me too much information. And
Speaker 4: I don't see her as like gray rocking, as in
Speaker 4: like she's being dull and boring. I see that as
Speaker 4: she doesn't trust me enough to talk more about her life.
Speaker 3: She probably doesn't, so it's a full of disengagement.
Speaker 2: I do this like if there's something I really don't
Speaker 2: want to talk about, Like, for example, at the moment
Speaker 2: in my life, my least favorite question in the entire
Speaker 2: world is how's the book going? Right? If somebody asked
Speaker 2: me that fucking question just because it's difficult, I mean, rewrites,
Speaker 2: it's hard, Like I just I don't want to talk
Speaker 2: about it.
Speaker 3: I asked her that in the kitchen at work, and
Speaker 3: she gray robed me.
Speaker 2: I did, And I do it with my friends and
Speaker 2: sometimes they get upset. They'll be like, how's the book going?
Speaker 2: That's just an example.
Speaker 3: That's my curse with all of your books, and pretty
Speaker 3: much most of the authors I know, they gray rock
Speaker 3: that question, how's the book? And I don't know why.
Speaker 2: It's because this is how it goes. If I don't
Speaker 2: write so and I do this, I don't just do
Speaker 2: this with you me or I do it with everything
Speaker 2: and not always, but when you're at these tricky periods
Speaker 2: that you're at, sometimes I'll just say I don't want
Speaker 2: to talk about it, right. But the thing is is
Speaker 2: if you say I don't want to talk about it,
Speaker 2: it sounds like there's a big story. So then your
Speaker 2: friend wants to open that door. Oh, why what's going on?
Speaker 2: And they keep pushing because like the example that you
Speaker 2: just gave, they probably think I'm being either rude or withholding.
Speaker 2: There's really good gossip there, but I just don't want
Speaker 2: to talk about it because I'm figuring it out because
Speaker 2: I just don't want to talk about it, and I
Speaker 2: don't have to. But there's no law that says I
Speaker 2: have to talk about things.
Speaker 3: I remember, I don't know you are paid to be
Speaker 3: in a podcast.
Speaker 4: Call you in a particularly bad time where I asked,
Speaker 4: how's your book and you just said nope, And I.
Speaker 2: Was like, I got it. Shut down.
Speaker 4: Shut down that was like hardcore, that was a cold
Speaker 4: that wasn't just a gray rock? So is that rude?
Speaker 2: Is there a way to shut down a conversation you
Speaker 2: don't want to have that isn't rude? Is gray rocking
Speaker 2: always rude?
Speaker 4: I think you saying I don't want to talk about
Speaker 4: it is better than trying to gray rock someone and
Speaker 4: like shifting the conversation. But yeah, there's also there's also
Speaker 4: the idea of soft gray rocking, where you like keep
Speaker 4: having the conversation, but you're not giving them the answer
Speaker 4: they want. So a TikTok gave an example of like
Speaker 4: if you're looking for a job, and instead of saying
Speaker 4: to your friend it's really hard to find a job,
Speaker 4: you say, I'm networking right now, still searching, so you're
Speaker 4: not going too deep into the emotion factor.
Speaker 2: I agree.
Speaker 3: So I think that the point of gray rocking is
Speaker 3: to not invite further questions or speculations. So I think
Speaker 3: instead of saying I don't want to talk about it
Speaker 3: for the reasons that you just said, you should just
Speaker 3: say get there. Yeah, And because that's like a boring thing,
Speaker 3: like how is your weekend? Not that that's just a
Speaker 3: boring answer, that's gray Rock, instead of going.
Speaker 2: Oh, I don't want to talk about it because that's
Speaker 2: not actually gray Rock. That's not gray Rock. I'm being
Speaker 2: a bit of a drama queen.
Speaker 3: Well, you're not intentionally being a drama queen. You're probably
Speaker 3: being really honest because you don't.
Speaker 4: Want to put in that emotion in there so they
Speaker 4: know how you feel. Yeah, gray Rock.
Speaker 3: Is boring, and yet it knows where it stands. So
Speaker 3: if someone tries to engage you in a conversation about politics,
Speaker 3: you just say like a platitude, Yeah, God, what a time,
Speaker 3: or like oh it's so difficult, isn't it? And it's
Speaker 3: not what they want. And so what they'll do is
Speaker 3: that they're looking for someone to match their level of
Speaker 3: intensity and their level of passion and engagement. And if
Speaker 3: you don't offer that to them, they'll go find someone
Speaker 3: else who will. That's how it gets you out of it.
Speaker 4: That's smart. Okay. I think I need to adopt this.
Speaker 3: Because it's like being a smart target. It's making yourself
Speaker 3: a really small target. If I say how's the book
Speaker 3: and you go get there, there's nothing left to say.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm so gonna say that yeah. From now on,
Speaker 2: in my mind, all I'm going to think is gray rock,
Speaker 2: gray rock, but not like gray rock that I'm throwing
Speaker 2: it at you, like, don't want to talk about it.
Speaker 2: It's just gray rock.
Speaker 3: Like out louders tell us what your gray rock phrases are.
Speaker 3: It's like we need to build a tool kit, neit,
Speaker 3: a bible of phrases that you can throw out there,
Speaker 3: like what a time?
Speaker 4: And I have to practice saying it without sounding sarcastic
Speaker 4: as well.
Speaker 3: Exactly, you have to deliver it in a really really neutral,
Speaker 3: monotone way. How do you do it verbally versus in
Speaker 3: a text message? Sometimes I find the text message version
Speaker 3: of gray rock could be an emoji, sometimes just a
Speaker 3: thumbs up or just a like a shocked face is
Speaker 3: a version of a gray rock because it's like it's
Speaker 3: a blank canvas, really, but it just says yep, I
Speaker 3: hear you. Nothing to add.
Speaker 2: It's interesting, isn't it that we think it's rude to
Speaker 2: not jump in and get with everybody when actually you
Speaker 2: don't know everybody.
Speaker 4: All your explanations, I think it depends on the person.
Speaker 3: That's what Princess Kate is. She's gray rocking. Yes, she's trying.
Speaker 2: It's me.
Speaker 3: I'm a gray Rock.
Speaker 2: Every Tuesday and Thursday we drop new segments of Mom
Speaker 2: and Me Are Out Loud just for Mom and Mia subscribers.
Speaker 2: Follow the link in the show notes to get your
Speaker 2: daily dose of Out Loud and a big thank you
Speaker 2: to all our current subscribers.
Speaker 3: Everything old is new again. First, it was ballet flats
Speaker 3: that came back. Then low rise jeans, although they seem
Speaker 3: to have disappeared again thank god, because everybody said get stuffed.
Speaker 3: Now it's the turn of lads mags to make a
Speaker 3: resurgence with the news that Loaded magazine is coming back.
Speaker 3: In the UK, there was a headline that caught out
Speaker 3: behind this week that said Loaded Magazine the saddest relaunch
Speaker 3: in history or a safe space for middle aged men.
Speaker 3: If you don't remember what Loaded magazine was, you'll know
Speaker 3: the genre of magazine that it.
Speaker 2: Was part of.
Speaker 3: They were huge worldwide back in the nineties and early
Speaker 3: two thousands, before anyone knew what sexism was or that
Speaker 3: telling a woman she had nice chits is not a
Speaker 3: great thing to do at work. There was the Australian version, which.
Speaker 2: Was called Ralph.
Speaker 4: Remember Ralph, no I don't I worked.
Speaker 3: In that, No, you wouldn't. I worked in the same
Speaker 3: magazine company as Ralph, and there were some great journalists
Speaker 3: who used to write for Ralph. There was FHM, and
Speaker 3: of course Loaded. They were kind of like Playboy or Penthouse,
Speaker 3: but without actual new nudity. Like the closest I would
Speaker 3: say is that they were like Cosmo or Cleo, but
Speaker 3: for men, except they also had women on the cover,
Speaker 3: which was weird. Isn't not funny how women's magazines had
Speaker 3: women on the cover and men's magazines had women on
Speaker 3: the cover as well.
Speaker 4: Sometimes they had a car, which is kind of.
Speaker 3: No, they didn't, not those lads' mags because it was
Speaker 3: all about being a lad. Can you explain what.
Speaker 2: A ladd in Britain actually when Loaded first launched, And
Speaker 2: it's hard to overstate the cultural shift that magazine represented.
Speaker 2: Magazine couldn't affect culture in that way now, there's just
Speaker 2: no way, you know, but it really it was a
Speaker 2: new genre. It was an entirely new genre. They did
Speaker 2: used to have men on the cover, but in a
Speaker 2: very stylish, stylized way, and then they'd also have women,
Speaker 2: and then as it evolved, it just turned into women
Speaker 2: but Loaded. When it launched, it said the editor was
Speaker 2: this guy called James Brown who became like an absolute celebrity.
Speaker 2: And he said, Loaded is a new magazine dedicated to life, liberty,
Speaker 2: and the pursuit of sex, drink, football and less serious matters.
Speaker 2: Loaded his music, film, relationships, humor, travel sport, hard news
Speaker 2: and popular culture. Loaded his clubbing, drinking, eating, playing and eating.
Speaker 2: Loaded is for the man who believes he can do
Speaker 2: anything if only he wasn't hungover. So you get the vibe.
Speaker 2: This is the hard partying nineties, and it was hard
Speaker 2: partying in those days. And it was like, we are
Speaker 2: blokes who like we might like a smart political article,
Speaker 2: and actually politicians used to try and get interviewed in
Speaker 2: these magazines because they were so influential. But we also
Speaker 2: want to look at a woman in arundes and really
Speaker 2: famous women would go unloaded in those days. They weren't
Speaker 2: like naked naked, but they were very male gayzy to
Speaker 2: use me.
Speaker 3: So they would be in like lingerie or like tiny
Speaker 3: little denim cutoffs, like very sexy, or like swimsuits that
Speaker 3: kind of thing.
Speaker 4: So it's probably not a thing like well, different thing.
Speaker 3: There was like Playboy in Penthouse and those magazines, but
Speaker 3: this didn't have actual nudity. It was like it had
Speaker 3: a little bit of clothes, but it was the same
Speaker 3: sort of objectifying cultural attitude to women that women are decorative,
Speaker 3: women are there to be ogled at and looked at,
Speaker 3: and so now it's coming back because that's what we want.
Speaker 3: But here's the twist. It has a female editor. The
Speaker 3: magazine's executive editor is a woman named Danny Levy. She's
Speaker 3: not a journalist, so she's a fitness influencer, no shade,
Speaker 3: and she said, our goal is to bring back all
Speaker 3: of those things that thirty five to fifty five year
Speaker 3: old men are being cheated out of by society being
Speaker 3: able to ogle beautiful women like is Hurly, Melinda Messenger
Speaker 3: or Pamela Anderson. So you can see this is appealing
Speaker 3: to the reader of these mags who were in their
Speaker 3: twenties and thirties or even teens back then and are
Speaker 3: now a bit older than that. She went on to say,
Speaker 3: the original loaded audience who are now living happily at
Speaker 3: home with their wife and kids, but still reminisce about
Speaker 3: their nights spent clubbing until three am, drinking one dollar
Speaker 3: shots with a bedroom covered in posters of half naked women. Yes,
Speaker 3: those were good old days, Holly, Should you.
Speaker 2: Live with a man in that?
Speaker 5: DEVI?
Speaker 3: It's so true? What should we do about the fact
Speaker 3: that men have lost the right to ogil innocently? Is
Speaker 3: there a march we could go on? Can we contribute
Speaker 3: to a gofund me?
Speaker 4: Do we buy all the copies and then keeping mouth?
Speaker 2: Won't somebody think of the poor middle aged men.
Speaker 3: Who come out and I feel so sorry for them.
Speaker 2: There was a place they could go to look at
Speaker 2: naked women and the privacy of their own home. I
Speaker 2: don't think anyone thinks this relaunch is going to work
Speaker 2: because of the Internet. But what's really interesting when you
Speaker 2: dig into what they're talking about here, and so it's
Speaker 2: kind of doing this like we're pushing back against political correctness.
Speaker 2: But this woman has also said that she wants loaded
Speaker 2: to be a safe space, which is a very millennial
Speaker 2: term for men who are like scared and repulsed by
Speaker 2: the extremity of porn online. Yeah, but want to look
Speaker 2: at a nice pair of boobs. They're obviously deciding that
Speaker 2: there is a gap in the market for that. I
Speaker 2: don't think there is a gap in the market for that,
Speaker 2: because aren't we surrounded by that a lot of the time.
Speaker 3: Well that's called Instagram. Yeah, I'm going to defend this
Speaker 3: idea because I was thinking about it. How are those
Speaker 3: magazines different to the way women's magazines and girls magazines
Speaker 3: like Dolly and Cleo and Cosmo used to objectify men
Speaker 3: Like I know, we didn't have them on the cover,
Speaker 3: but there were pinups of hot teenage with their shirts off.
Speaker 3: Cleo had Australia's fifty most eligible bachelors every year the
Speaker 3: Male Centerfold. That desire shouldn't be villified, or we shouldn't
Speaker 3: shame people for it. So where can people do that
Speaker 3: in a way that's not creepy?
Speaker 2: Well, everywhere anywhere on the internet where there are pictures
Speaker 2: of women. What are things I find really interesting about
Speaker 2: this because really, if you track the history of those magazines,
Speaker 2: and I was of the age as you were, me
Speaker 2: aware and particularly in Britain just before I left to
Speaker 2: come to Australia, this was the culture and women were
Speaker 2: part of it, right. We were quite convinced that this
Speaker 2: was like quite revolutionary and cool and girls could be
Speaker 2: lads too because women could go out drinking as well
Speaker 2: and have fun with the boys. And we didn't hate
Speaker 2: those magazines in the way that we had come to
Speaker 2: understand that Playboy and Penthouse and stuff was sexist, that
Speaker 2: the Benny Hill Show was sexist. You know that page
Speaker 2: three we literally had in the newspaper in Britain. You
Speaker 2: opened it on page three, there was a picture of
Speaker 2: a topless woman, that that was sexist. This was like
Speaker 2: the next wave, and I thought we were in on
Speaker 2: the joke. But what happened, perhaps inevitably, as with all
Speaker 2: cultural shifts, is it got polluted and poisoned and became
Speaker 2: very clear eight years later or whatever, that we weren't
Speaker 2: in on the joke, and that we were every bit
Speaker 2: as much commodified and objectified by it as all those
Speaker 2: other things.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: The reason that they stopped selling, though, is because of
Speaker 2: the Internet. That's really why they stopped selling. It's not
Speaker 2: like men suddenly went I don't want to look at
Speaker 2: naked women anymore. It's that they went, there's somewhere I
Speaker 2: can do that for free.
Speaker 3: So what about this idea? And I'm interested to hear
Speaker 3: what you think about this being a middle ground, because
Speaker 3: of course you could look at all of these women.
Speaker 3: You could look at porn. You could look at all
Speaker 3: of that for free on the internet. But what about
Speaker 3: what Holly said about how there are some guys who
Speaker 3: might want to look at attractive women, but they don't
Speaker 3: want to be creepy. They've got problems with porn. They
Speaker 3: don't want to watch porn. It's creepy if they're just
Speaker 3: on Instagram following a whole lot of fitness influences and
Speaker 3: bikini models. So where do they go.
Speaker 4: I'm just really confused on why these men staring at
Speaker 4: these photos of women who are like semi clothed. What
Speaker 4: goes through their heads that's different to what goes through
Speaker 4: their heads when they're watching porn. Like, I don't understand
Speaker 4: where the difference happens, because it's still like salacious. It's
Speaker 4: still like photos that they're ashamed to be looking at.
Speaker 3: Why do they have to be ashamed? Like why is
Speaker 3: admiring someone of the opposite sex?
Speaker 4: But are they admiring it? They're like oo ogling.
Speaker 3: Okay, So when photos are on the Daily Mail of
Speaker 3: Chris Hemsworth on the set of a movie or surfing
Speaker 3: with his shirt off, and women are like, oh, look
Speaker 3: at him or go to a bachelorette party. Yeah, exactly,
Speaker 3: and they are male strippers or they go to a
Speaker 3: club or whatever. That seems to be okay.
Speaker 4: I don't think where like looking at Chris Hemsworth and
Speaker 4: then just staring at him and staring at his abs
Speaker 4: and thinking about him and thinking about having sex, and
Speaker 4: then downloading the photo or buying a magazine just to
Speaker 4: look at him.
Speaker 3: You don't know. So when we had women's magazines in
Speaker 3: the nineties and way before the nineties and into the
Speaker 3: early two thousands, the idea of objectifying men was so
Speaker 3: subversive that that is what we did. So there were
Speaker 3: posters of hot guys. I mean, when girls grow up,
Speaker 3: they have guys celebrity.
Speaker 4: It's different to having like model like guys. Like I
Speaker 4: would have posters of Jesse McCartney on my wall, but
Speaker 4: it was because I was like, that's going to be
Speaker 4: my future husband, not because he was a sexy man
Speaker 4: that I was like.
Speaker 3: And you didn't want to just get to know his personality?
Speaker 3: I did, Yeah, but come on, you're a horny.
Speaker 4: Little Teenager's aney teenager? But looking at him, But I
Speaker 4: wouldn't be like ogling him and I wouldn't be buying
Speaker 4: magazines that were just of like hot men to look at.
Speaker 3: I think that's not the only thing that's in these
Speaker 3: magazines to be.
Speaker 2: Well, no, so, I mean the thing about these magazines
Speaker 2: is that, And certainly at the beginning, I don't think
Speaker 2: its a magazine. Is that's true? I don't.
Speaker 4: I don't get it.
Speaker 2: You know how there's that cliche that, oh, men, I
Speaker 2: used to buy Playboy for the articles, right, that's like
Speaker 2: a thing that people say. And the thing is is
Speaker 2: there was an element of that that's true. There was
Speaker 2: a time in the sixties and seventies and stuff where
Speaker 2: the best journalists in the world wrote for those magazines
Speaker 2: next to the pictures of the naked ladies, right yeah.
Speaker 2: And then in the nineties that's kind of what happened
Speaker 2: in the Best of these Lads mags. So the loaded
Speaker 2: ralph irreverent, funny, smart journalism, as I say, as it
Speaker 2: kind of descended into a cost cutting let's just say
Speaker 2: what it is and do away with the articles. That changed.
Speaker 2: But the idea was then I suppose that you know,
Speaker 2: how we say about women, we can be interested in,
Speaker 2: you know, serious things and silly things. We can be
Speaker 2: interested in lipstick and politics whatever. That was basically the
Speaker 2: premise of these magazines. Men could be interested in reading
Speaker 2: an interview with the Prime Minister and want to look
Speaker 2: at a picture of a woman with her tits out
Speaker 2: and at the time looking at a woman a picture
Speaker 2: of a woman with the tits out. If you were
Speaker 2: doing it with like this sort of slightly ironic raised
Speaker 2: eyebrow that these magazines pretended they had was like fine,
Speaker 2: Where that led us? They were also in humor, they
Speaker 2: were funny, like the best of them were very very funny.
Speaker 2: Where that led us though, And that's what I mean
Speaker 2: when I say I feel like we were all sold
Speaker 2: a big lie. There is Where it led us, though,
Speaker 2: was to just the same objectified place that we started in.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: I don't think you can make the comparison with men
Speaker 2: with their shirts off in girls magazines. I just don't,
Speaker 2: because I just think the politics, the history, all of
Speaker 2: the cultural context of that doesn't work.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: I just don't think it does.
Speaker 3: No, no, no, But once said, because all I was
Speaker 3: comparing is that there will always be an innate human
Speaker 3: desire to look at people that you want to have
Speaker 3: sex with.
Speaker 2: And I think that that I mean of course there
Speaker 2: is right, And I think what's interesting is what's coming
Speaker 2: through and what am saying, I don't want to misrepresent you,
Speaker 2: is that we should all at least pretend that that's
Speaker 2: not what we want to do. We don't want to
Speaker 2: look at pictures of beautiful people, Whereas what I think
Speaker 2: is actually what's happened is people will always want to
Speaker 2: do that and they've just found another way to do
Speaker 2: it that's free. And the notion that men need permission
Speaker 2: to ogle women and that's what this magazine is aiming
Speaker 2: to give them back. That's what she's saying, like, we're
Speaker 2: giving it back to you, the permission to have a
Speaker 2: more innocent, sort of dopamine hit of nudity. Because she
Speaker 2: was saying, you know, they've been turned off by the
Speaker 2: extreme nature of porn. Well a, i'd be like, how
Speaker 2: they like, I hope so, But I don't know that
Speaker 2: that's true. But like, I think it's a flawed business
Speaker 2: model because I don't think that men have stopped looking
Speaker 2: at naked women, you know what I mean, I just don't.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think it's going to work either. But
Speaker 3: all magazines ever were whoever they were for is curation
Speaker 3: of content, and so this is saying that we will
Speaker 3: curate content, and we'll put things about alcohol, and will
Speaker 3: put things. It's talking to a nostalgia in a group
Speaker 3: of men who were gen X men.
Speaker 2: And it's true that it was more socially acceptable. So
Speaker 2: like if you started dating a guy in the nineties
Speaker 2: and you went round to his house and he had
Speaker 2: a copy of Loaded on the table, you wouldn't necessarily
Speaker 2: think he's a disgusting purv.
Speaker 4: You just mean, like, oh, there must be a great
Speaker 4: on climate change in there.
Speaker 2: Whereas if it was a proper hardcore porn mag and
Speaker 2: it was out on the table, that's a different thing,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, that's the veneer of respectability.
Speaker 2: So I guess the differentiation there now is it's a
Speaker 2: bit like looking at a woman in a bikini on Instagram,
Speaker 2: which we all know that some only fans, I guess
Speaker 2: is a very obvious place for this, right, Just looking
Speaker 2: at a woman in a bikini is exciting. Is that
Speaker 2: a different line if they're actually looking at porn? What's
Speaker 2: your position on that? That's what this differentiation is supposed
Speaker 2: to be.
Speaker 4: I think it's the same. I actually think sometimes it's
Speaker 4: worse because when you're looking on Instagram at a person,
Speaker 4: you know that's a real life person, and you know
Speaker 4: maybe they're posting it to get heaps of life and
Speaker 4: to get heaps of DMS. You also know they're posting
Speaker 4: it because they are a person who just wants to
Speaker 4: post a bikini pig and look good in it. And
Speaker 4: then you like scroll down and you see a fire
Speaker 4: emoji that's ridden by your boyfriend, and it's embarrassing more
Speaker 4: than anything, it's more embarrassing. It's more embarrassing knowing that
Speaker 4: the rest of the world can see your partner engaging
Speaker 4: in this type of content.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's a way for men to there's plausible deniability,
Speaker 3: right because it's like I've bought Loaded magazine. I bought
Speaker 3: it for the articles, Like you could ostensibly say that,
Speaker 3: whereas if you've just got you just watching porn or
Speaker 3: you're just liking some fitness model's photo, that is more
Speaker 3: personal and that is more specific.
Speaker 2: But you can't police what people think and what they
Speaker 2: want to look at because if he's engaging with that photo,
Speaker 2: so say he's looking at hot bikini model on Instagram
Speaker 2: he likes or fire emoges it he's leaving a breadcrumb
Speaker 2: trail like of what he's into, but you can't police
Speaker 2: him from actually just looking at that and like having
Speaker 2: the thoughts he wants to have in his head. And
Speaker 2: one of the things I worry about. I don't want
Speaker 2: to sound like, you know, that's not my bag to
Speaker 2: be all like, oh PC gone mad, But I'm like,
Speaker 2: we can't be in such a puritanical place where we
Speaker 2: literally don't think people should be allowed to look at
Speaker 2: other people.
Speaker 3: And that's what I was trying to say. Do you
Speaker 3: know what I mean?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Yeah, how many times have you been in love? Out louders?
Speaker 3: How many times? Do you've been in love?
Speaker 5: Him?
Speaker 4: Too many times? I don't even know what love is really.
Speaker 4: Maybe I'm confused. I should have been an honest conversation.
Speaker 3: That's interesting.
Speaker 2: I've been in love a few times. I think I
Speaker 2: say that on this because is it three?
Speaker 3: Have you been in love three times? On yesterday's episode,
Speaker 3: Holly and I talked about how many times you've been
Speaker 3: in love? It was very interesting conversation I learned about you,
Speaker 3: hollywayen Right. I think that what you feel is kind
Speaker 3: of a little bit different, maybe with each person or
Speaker 3: maybe it's just then how you look at it in hindsight,
Speaker 3: how you think, Oh I thought it was love, but
Speaker 3: actually it was just lust. Or I thought it was love,
Speaker 3: but actually we should have just been friends. Or I
Speaker 3: don't believe that you just have one love in your life.
Speaker 3: I think that you can have lots.
Speaker 2: I've been in love a few times for sure. This
Speaker 2: is why I think. You know, we always talk about
Speaker 2: Jay Lower, Yes, let's talk about her again. Like she
Speaker 2: says herself in that movie that like she's addicted to love.
Speaker 2: She means that first part. That's what she means.
Speaker 3: What do they call it? Liminence?
Speaker 2: Yeah, liminence, limerence. It's that first part of love where
Speaker 2: you're obsessed.
Speaker 3: A link to that episode will be the show notes.
Speaker 3: You can listen right now.
Speaker 2: And if you are looking for other things to listen to.
Speaker 2: On our other shows this week, on our cheating shows,
Speaker 2: when We're Cheating, on When We're Out Loud on Mid
Speaker 2: this week, I had a conversation about bodies, which is
Speaker 2: we're not allowed to talk about it. I know, we
Speaker 2: broke the taboos on Mid this week, and I have
Speaker 2: a conversation with Helen Thorne, who's this comedian Ouzsie, comedian
Speaker 2: who lives in London, and part of her stick is
Speaker 2: that she and her comedy partner as old A, are
Speaker 2: women since you know, thirties forties, worn these tight lamee
Speaker 2: like catsuits on stage and they were both very like
Speaker 2: ordinarily shaped. Let's just say, you know, like just not
Speaker 2: supermodels and so.
Speaker 3: Bit Celeste Barber. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So the body confidence that it takes to do that
Speaker 2: no matter what shape you are, is one thing. But then
Speaker 2: Helen went through this massive sort of reckoning pre COVID
Speaker 2: where she found out her spitald was cheating on her,
Speaker 2: her marriage fell apart, she went into lockdown, she fell
Speaker 2: into a debauch hole, as she tells lots of funny
Speaker 2: stories about, and then she great rebuilt her relations with
Speaker 2: her body. It's a really good, funny conversation. It's hilarious.
Speaker 3: Yeah, such a good episode. Got I'm enjoying your conversations
Speaker 3: on that show on No Filter this week. Oh I
Speaker 3: had speaking of cheating, I had a fascinating conversation. And
Speaker 3: I don't usually get to say I had an exclusive.
Speaker 3: I didn't mean for it to be one. Sam and
Speaker 3: Nia Rata were in that Ashley Madison documentary. They were
Speaker 3: a couple who were very Christian. They were family like YouTubers,
Speaker 3: and his name was leaked in the Ashley Madison data leak.
Speaker 3: It came out that he had didn't actually have an
Speaker 3: affair via Ashley Madison because all the women on that
Speaker 3: website were actually Botts, but he had been unfaithful over
Speaker 3: a really long period of time with lots of different
Speaker 3: women in lots of different ways. Their story was told
Speaker 3: a little bit in the documentary, but I was interested,
Speaker 3: so we reached out and had an amazing interview. They
Speaker 3: were in their bedroom, side by side. There was this
Speaker 3: big thunderstorm in the background. We're going to be talking
Speaker 3: about it more on Friday because there has been a
Speaker 3: massive reaction to it in a way that I didn't expect.
Speaker 3: People are furious, furious, furious, So we'll put a link
Speaker 3: in the show notes to mid and to No Filter,
Speaker 3: don't forget to listen on Friday when we'll be talking
Speaker 3: about it more in depth. What about you, I, What
Speaker 3: have you been doing this week?
Speaker 4: One of my favorite topics next week was talking about
Speaker 4: Sabrina Carpenter. She's just released a new song.
Speaker 2: I Love It, Please Please Please, talking about.
Speaker 4: The brilliance of her writing a song begging her boyfriend
Speaker 4: not to embarrass her while casting her real life boyfriend
Speaker 4: Barry Kiogan in the music video. We also talked about
Speaker 4: Barry's history and men who leave their partners when they've
Speaker 4: become really famous.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just off him in a big way.
Speaker 4: Yes, Oh, he was the rab boy with the Golden
Speaker 4: Retriever rising.
Speaker 2: A link to all of these episodes will be in
Speaker 2: the show notes. That's it for today, out louders, thank
Speaker 2: you for making it through Wednesday with you, and thank
Speaker 2: you to our wonderful team for making this episode happen.
Speaker 2: We'll be back in here it is tomorrow.
Speaker 4: Bye Bye, Siya.
Speaker 5: Shout out to any Mom and Maya subscribers listening. If
Speaker 5: you love the show and want to support us as well,
Speaker 5: subscribing to MoMA Miya is the very best way to
Speaker 5: do so. There is a link in the episode description.
Speaker 3: I was laughing during that last segment because it's like,
Speaker 3: you think that a magazine is actually a coffee table book.
Speaker 4: I think they're going to display it in their apartment
Speaker 4: like a piece of armor, and then it just has pictures.
Speaker 3: No, the way a magazine works is that there's pictures,
Speaker 3: but also words climate change,