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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia out Loud. It's what women are actually talking

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Speaker 2: about on Wednesday, the twelfth of June.

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Speaker 3: I'm Holly Waynwright, I'm MEA Friedman.

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Speaker 4: And I'm m Vernam filling in for Jesse today. You

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Speaker 4: might have heard me over on our daily entertainment podcast

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Speaker 4: A spill.

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Speaker 2: An on today's show. Because Jesse is away and you're here, am,

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Speaker 2: I am taking the opportunity to talk about royals.

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Speaker 4: You roll us over.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to my roundup that includes a wedding, a nasty divorce,

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Speaker 2: and a whole new kategait. Also the gray Rock theory

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Speaker 2: that might just be the answer for getting through conversations

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Speaker 2: with difficult people, and the return of the latsmag But first,

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Speaker 2: Mia Friedman.

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Speaker 3: In case you missed it, there's a really awful story

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Speaker 3: around today about fifty female students from Bacchus Marsh Grammar,

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Speaker 3: which is a high school norwest of Melbourne, have reported

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Speaker 3: fake nude images of them circulating online that have been

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Speaker 3: made with AI. So they're explicit images, but with the

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Speaker 3: faces of girls from the school. A teenager has been arrested,

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Speaker 3: a teenage boy and since released. After these images of girls,

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Speaker 3: who were thought to be in years nine to twelve

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Speaker 3: were circulated through the school and presumably outsided as well.

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Speaker 3: The principle of the school, Andrew Neil, has released a statement.

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Speaker 3: He has said it's appalling. It is something that strikes

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Speaker 3: to the heart of students, particularly girls growing.

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Speaker 2: Up at this age.

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Speaker 3: They should be able to learn and go about their

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Speaker 3: business without this kind of nonsense. These things are not funny,

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Speaker 3: They are basically vicious and therefore they should be dealt

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Speaker 3: with appropriately. It's behavior that needs to be dealt with

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Speaker 3: in as firm a way as possible.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 3: Victorian police are continuing to investigate this matter, but I

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Speaker 3: think this is just really the start of what we're

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Speaker 3: going to see because we've spoken before about celebrities like

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Speaker 3: Taylor Swift who have had pornographic images made of her

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Speaker 3: a fake using AI. Back in the olden days, I

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Speaker 3: had someone when I was a magazine editor who cut

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Speaker 3: out images of naked women and photos of my head

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Speaker 3: and did it making a bit of a collage and

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Speaker 3: sent it to me, which I had to go to

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Speaker 3: the police. So I guess terrible people have been doing

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Speaker 3: this since the beginning of time, but now it's just

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Speaker 3: so easy.

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Speaker 4: It's my biggest fear having my nudes leaked, and the

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Speaker 4: fact that they can still be leaked even though they're

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Speaker 4: not me but looks like me, because these day images

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Speaker 4: look so real. That is just beyond And it's these

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Speaker 4: young girls, like these are children that it's happening to.

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Speaker 2: I think the e Safety Commissioner was talking about it

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Speaker 2: today and saying, how this is obviously the beginning of

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Speaker 2: this technology, as you've said me, so the law has

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Speaker 2: to figure out how to handle it because they're not

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Speaker 2: pictures that have been stolen of somebody. They've been entirely created,

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Speaker 2: so they're fake. But as she was saying, she's saying,

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Speaker 2: this is going to have tragic consequences one day, because

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Speaker 2: it will happen to someone who's got such vulnerable mental

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Speaker 2: health that it'll go the way that a lot of

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Speaker 2: these awful online bullying campaigns go, and we'll lose people,

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Speaker 2: and they've got to figure out how to handle it.

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Speaker 3: I don't think you can, like, how do you stop

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Speaker 3: people from being dickheads.

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Speaker 2: One of the ways you can stop children from being

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Speaker 2: dickheads is making sure that it is incredibly clear how

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Speaker 2: serious it is and what serious consequences there will be,

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Speaker 2: because I think if it's a bit of lolls and

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Speaker 2: you might just get a slap on the wrist and

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Speaker 2: are telling off, that's a completely different ballgame to if

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Speaker 2: criminal charges might be brought.

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Speaker 4: Tell you how, it's time for Holly's royal roundup now, As.

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Speaker 2: I said, So, Jesse's off in Ireland or somewhere somewhere glamorous. Actually,

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Speaker 2: I saw her at a castle, so maybe she's changing

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Speaker 2: her mind a princess. Yes, maybe she's changing her mind

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Speaker 2: about how she feels about royal stories. Anyway, So I

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Speaker 2: bribed me or and em in our meeting to let

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Speaker 2: me deliver a quick royal roundup. And when Jesse gets back,

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Speaker 2: I'm just going to tell her it's a regular now. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's just the way it rolls.

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Speaker 4: I'll back here.

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Speaker 2: So three things, are you ready? Yes? Number one? Four

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Speaker 2: hundred people watched a very very posh man called Huey

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Speaker 2: get married on Saturday. He's the Duke of Westminster and

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Speaker 2: he's only thirty three. His calculated wealth is just under

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Speaker 2: nine billion pounds, even though he doesn't have a job

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Speaker 2: that interesting, isn't Britain great. I'm sure he has a

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Speaker 2: job managing all his money, maybe just sitting in one

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Speaker 2: of his castles, like piling it up into really neat

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Speaker 2: little piles. But anyway, I digress. He married a woman

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Speaker 2: called Olivia Henson who did used to have a job.

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Speaker 2: She was an account manager and eco importer, but she

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Speaker 2: just gave it up to focus on being the Duchess

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Speaker 2: of Westminster. Yeah, it's a lot of work, it is,

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Speaker 2: so the money doesn't just stack itself anyway. Huey is

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Speaker 2: bestie's with both Prince William and Prince Harry. Now he's

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Speaker 2: closer to Prince Harry's age, so he might be a

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Speaker 2: bit tired of with him. But he is so in

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Speaker 2: a circle that he's the godfather to both William's son

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Speaker 2: George and Harry's son Archie, and so in a circle

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Speaker 2: that Prince William, who is the heir to the throne,

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Speaker 2: was just a lowly usher at the wedding.

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Speaker 3: There were two things about this wedding that caught my eye.

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Speaker 3: One was the hideous shoes that the bride was wearing

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Speaker 3: They were blue suede shoes, but they were really like clumpy,

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Speaker 3: flatform platform, ugly blue shoes. And as she walked, she

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Speaker 3: was wearing a beautiful dress and as she walked you

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Speaker 3: could see the ugly shoes. Anyway, I did.

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Speaker 4: It was an O to Elvis. You don't know.

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Speaker 2: I thought she was trying to be cool. Wrong shoe theory.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's the something blue, something borrowed, whatever. But wrong shoe. Oh,

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Speaker 3: wrong shoe theory. Yeah, No, I think we need to

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Speaker 3: draw a line when it comes to weddings. But I

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Speaker 3: also loved this bit about Prince William being in usher.

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Speaker 3: Does that when he had to show people to their

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Speaker 3: seats and handout programs.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I had to know who they were. He

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Speaker 2: had to know who they were. He had a cheat

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Speaker 2: sheet and he was like.

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Speaker 4: Oh yes, Duke of so and so. I love that.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, the reason everybody got excited about this wedding, apart

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Speaker 2: from the fact that you know, richest man in Britain

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Speaker 2: all the rest of it, an eligible bachelor blah blah

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Speaker 2: blah and really hot really yeah ooh, it's because obviously

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Speaker 2: Hughie had to pick between Harry and William his two

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Speaker 2: besties about which one could and he chose William, which

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Speaker 2: maybe you would because he's the heir to the throne

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Speaker 2: and Harry has a deal with Netflix, But now you know.

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Speaker 3: That he chose. Was Harry actually invited.

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Speaker 2: Rumors on the Insiders Royal Insiders say that Harry and

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Speaker 2: Meghan were invited but tactfully decided not to come because

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Speaker 2: if you believe that side of the story, they didn't

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Speaker 2: want to pull focus, particularly from Olivia and her shoes.

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Speaker 3: Well, I also think that William had homeground advantage. I mean,

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Speaker 3: he was there, and also he's going to be the king,

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Speaker 3: so but I think it's important to note that they

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Speaker 3: were both invited and that William was the one.

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Speaker 2: Who won, because I think we're at the point where

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Speaker 2: they cannot be not the same wedding together. They might

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Speaker 2: drink too many champagnes, pull off their ties and wrestle

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Speaker 2: on the floor, and it has happened before.

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Speaker 3: And who's hold is that? It's only one of them

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Speaker 3: wrote a book, that's true, exposing all the secrets of

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Speaker 3: the other.

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Speaker 4: But it's elder boy privilege. The other four, like elder

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Speaker 4: siblings always get privileged.

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Speaker 3: Like my kids, whoever wasn't a dick.

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Speaker 4: No, it's it's the elder sibling. Like at my cousin's wedding,

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Speaker 4: she wanted a bridesmaid from each family, and because I'm

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Speaker 4: older than my sister, I got chosen from my family.

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Speaker 4: So second siblings syndrome. I just have to deal.

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Speaker 3: That was at the end of the wedding story.

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Speaker 2: That's the end of the wedding.

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Speaker 3: She looks a lot like Kate.

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Speaker 2: Oh, she looks exactly like Kate.

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Speaker 3: I got to Kate's school.

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Speaker 2: Everyone's saying she followed a Kate pass because in some

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Speaker 2: ways it would be better to marry the Duke of

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Speaker 2: Westminster than it would be to marry the Prince of Wales.

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Speaker 2: Less scrutiny, you know, more money, all the rest of it.

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Speaker 3: You know how the Kardashians are like a certain aesthetic

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Speaker 3: among a certain group of women. Is there are the

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Speaker 3: same aesthetic among posh English people? Because remember the woman

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Speaker 3: that Prince William was rumored to be having an affair with,

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Speaker 3: whose name I can't pronounce some things. Ye, she looked

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Speaker 3: exactly like Kate too. So it's kind of like a

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Speaker 3: very outdoorsy, long, glossy hair, wholesome wholesome. Yes, it's slim, wholesome, very.

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Speaker 2: Skinny, very respectable. So yes, she followed the Kate playbooks.

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Speaker 2: She went to the same school as Kate. She then

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Speaker 2: went to a UNI that isn't like Oxford or Cambridge,

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Speaker 2: like an intimidating UNI, but like a good, fancy UNI.

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Speaker 2: She went to Trinity in Ireland, which is where Normal

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Speaker 2: People was filmed, and everyone was like, who's going to

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Speaker 2: marry him? Who's going to marry him? And apparently she

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Speaker 2: came from nowhere, Tatler wrote, she flew like a night owl,

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Speaker 2: silently into the most coveted bedroom in Britain. She cut

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Speaker 2: off as well, she's pushed, but she's not titled. But

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Speaker 2: she's from good stock.

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Speaker 3: She's not a lady.

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Speaker 2: I've certainly just got a serious upgrade, like in terms

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Speaker 2: of lifestyle.

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Speaker 4: It's like they all learned from Kate's mum, like how

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Speaker 4: to be queen, and they're like, how to be Kate.

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Speaker 2: So she's been Kate's perhaps better than Kate. Speaking of Kate,

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Speaker 2: we have learned nothing. Pulling out my wagging finger. Several

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Speaker 2: media organizations, including The Cut and now me, although I'm

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Speaker 2: not a very organized organization for.

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Speaker 4: Her own organization, wain Wright Organizations.

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Speaker 2: I noticed that Kate Watch has been somewhat reinstated since

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Speaker 2: it's been three months that we found out that Kate

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Speaker 2: was undergoing cancer treatment. And as we know, the internet

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Speaker 2: resets its memory after three months and everything that went

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Speaker 2: before is wiped and all is new again. She did

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Speaker 2: not attend something she was meant to attend. She didn't

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Speaker 2: go to the wedding for starters, which is not that surprising,

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Speaker 2: and apparently William didn't really go to the party, but

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Speaker 2: also something military. She is the honorary colonel of the

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Speaker 2: Irish Guards, which is one of the cool things.

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Speaker 4: Actual, How you say that word? I was reading it

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Speaker 4: in the script and I couldn't figure it out. Colonel.

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Speaker 3: You don't know how to say colonel?

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Speaker 4: What I do just learn?

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Speaker 3: I guess you wouldn't say it. A lot said you

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Speaker 3: didn't have Colonel Sanders, who is the dude from Kentucky

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Speaker 3: Fried Chicken.

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Speaker 4: He's just the.

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Speaker 2: Dude on Kentucky Fried Chicken. To me, Kate is a

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Speaker 2: colonel of the Irish Guards, and she's like a corn colonel.

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Speaker 2: She's meant to be part of a big MARCHI festival

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Speaker 2: of soldiers in hats this week called the Trooping of

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Speaker 2: the Collar. She'd usually be there inspecting them. She wasn't,

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Speaker 2: of course, and she sent a letter saying she was

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Speaker 2: really sorry she couldn't be there, and it sparked a

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Speaker 2: whole new round of like, when's she going to come?

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Speaker 2: When are we going to see her again? When she's

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Speaker 2: coming back to work? And a story this week about

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Speaker 2: how she's just promoted her stylist to be her new

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Speaker 2: top assistant, and so everyone's like, oh, preparation for her

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Speaker 2: coming back, And I'm like, people, have we learned nothing?

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Speaker 3: No, No, I'm going to push back on you there,

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Speaker 3: Harley dot com. Because when there's someone you know and

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Speaker 3: we don't know her but we know of her, and

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Speaker 3: someone who's a public figure and they're going through something tough.

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Speaker 2: You want to check in. This one is really good

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Speaker 2: at you bringing it home with some more really good

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Speaker 2: information about really silly rich people. The Earl Spencer that

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Speaker 2: is Princess Diana's brother, Charles. He has burnt into Generation

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Speaker 2: x's memory as the guy who made the speech at

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Speaker 2: her funeral where he ripped the royal family a new

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Speaker 2: one right.

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Speaker 3: But has since been revealed to be a bit of

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Speaker 3: a dick.

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Speaker 4: Oh he's a massive dick by the Crown Moss disappointing.

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Speaker 2: He is getting his third divorce and he's hired the

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Speaker 2: same divorce lawyer who represented Charles when he divorced Diana.

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Speaker 2: She is known as a demon the She's widely regarded

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Speaker 2: to be the reason why Anna lost her title. Her

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Speaker 2: hr h Right she is and I love this so much. Right,

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Speaker 2: you will love her. In fact, you'll love her so much.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to show you a picture of her. I

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Speaker 2: feel like this is a betrayal. This is it, right?

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Speaker 2: I mean, can you imagine You're like, well, they she

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Speaker 2: did a right number on my sister. This woman, I

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Speaker 2: want her too. She is called Baroness Shackleton of Belgravier.

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Speaker 4: I love that.

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Speaker 2: And she does all the royal divorces. So she represented Charles,

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Speaker 2: she represented Andrew. She's also represented Paul McCartney, Madonna and

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Speaker 2: Liam Gallagha.

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Speaker 4: She sounds like a Harry Potter.

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Speaker 2: You will love her. She's wearing oh my god, she

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Speaker 2: looks amazing MEA's jacket.

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Speaker 3: She's wearing like a military jacks, scarves and a hat.

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Speaker 3: She's also terrifying.

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Speaker 2: She has a look on her face, that is like,

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Speaker 2: fuck with me.

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Speaker 4: Not when I hear the word baroness, that's exactly what

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Speaker 4: I think of.

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Speaker 2: And Belgravier, which is the poshest bit of London, can't

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Speaker 2: even set foot in there unless you're worth a bajillion dollars.

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Speaker 2: So she Charles has just hired her to get rid

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Speaker 2: of his third wife. I agree. I think it's a betrayal,

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Speaker 2: but fun anyway. Now you're up to date with a

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Speaker 2: lot of the meaningless information about people who have too

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Speaker 2: much money and yet live rent free. In my mind,

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Speaker 2: are we betting this segment in? Are we?

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Speaker 4: Is it coming back? I'm down down to as we've established.

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Speaker 1: The notion that you have to forgive in order to

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Speaker 1: move on in your life. That's outdated. Therapy, gray rocking

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Speaker 1: and going no contact is literally the only way to

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Speaker 1: avoid the manipulation all of it.

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Speaker 4: Have you heard of the gray rock theory?

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Speaker 5: No?

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Speaker 1: Okay?

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Speaker 4: Well? New York Times author Christina Karen wants you to

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Speaker 4: know what it is. So imagine there's a small gray

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Speaker 4: rock in your hand. It's a bit boring, a bit dull.

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Speaker 4: It looks the same on all sides. Are you really

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Speaker 4: bored right now?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: That's the whole point. I've got you, I've got you.

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Speaker 4: So there's a theory that if you adopt the qualities

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Speaker 4: of a gray rock, then you will be able to

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Speaker 4: repel the argumentative and antagonistic people in your life who

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Speaker 4: thrive off conflict.

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Speaker 2: Oh I do know this, So make it like a rock.

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Speaker 3: Like a rock.

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Speaker 4: So the idea of being a gray rock is to

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Speaker 4: not kind of like push people away from you. You're

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Speaker 4: still kind of engaging in a conversation, but you're not

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Speaker 4: oversharing because when you overshare to the wrong people, they

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Speaker 4: use that information against you.

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Speaker 3: So if you ask Siri to show you the opposite

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Speaker 3: of me in any conversation, they will show you a

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Speaker 3: gray rock. And that's why I'm so captivated by this technique,

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Speaker 3: because the gray rock technique is something that I really

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Speaker 3: feel like I need to master, particularly in this age

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Speaker 3: of social media, particularly currently, when there's so many people

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Speaker 3: screaming so many things. Arguing with them just never works,

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Speaker 3: It just never works. And so I've taken this approach

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Speaker 3: with trolls for a really long time. Be a gray rock.

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Speaker 3: It's a little bit like Michelle Obama, when they go low.

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Speaker 4: You go high.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, go as high as a gray rock, except they

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Speaker 2: sink to the bottom of the thing. I've actually got

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Speaker 2: a friend she'd be listening to this. In fact, hell

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Speaker 2: her a gray rock friend who is without knowing this

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Speaker 2: was what it's called, is what she's employing in like,

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Speaker 2: she's going through a really awful breakup, marriage breakup. Her

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Speaker 2: whole strategy is do less, do not engage yes, because apparently,

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Speaker 2: like psychopaths and narcissists are attracted to drama and they

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Speaker 2: can't stand being bored. So if you refuse to feed

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Speaker 2: them what they want, yes, like in terms of text messages,

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Speaker 2: you know, if they want to get into a fight

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Speaker 2: on text messages or something, then being very very calm

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Speaker 2: and very boring and very straight and only engaging with

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Speaker 2: like factual exchange and everything is a very effective strategy.

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Speaker 2: And I would love to be more gray rock to

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Speaker 2: me because one thing that I've realized, I think I'll

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Speaker 2: can remember we talked about this on the show or Not.

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Speaker 2: Soft power is about saying less, not more. I have

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Speaker 2: always and I think women are, without wanting to just

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Speaker 2: generalize enormously, we rush to feel silences. Yes, we justify ourselves.

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Speaker 2: We say I'd like that but is this and this

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Speaker 2: and this and this and this are all the reasons

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Speaker 2: why I shouldn't get it, whereas being a gray rock

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Speaker 2: is more like I'm just going to say what I

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Speaker 2: need and then I'm going to curl up in a

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Speaker 2: little gray ball.

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Speaker 3: Well, what I like is that there isn't curling up

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Speaker 3: in the gray rock.

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Speaker 2: It's not being a gray feather, that's true, or be

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Speaker 2: like a let yourself be kiy.

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Speaker 3: The technique is not don't be a gray piece of paper,

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Speaker 3: don't be a gray feather. Don't like just blow with

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Speaker 3: the wind and let the other person blow you over

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Speaker 3: stand your ground, but just be boring and take the

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Speaker 3: wind out of their sails by being boring?

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Speaker 2: Do you reckon that? This is the technique that you

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Speaker 2: might use even by accept when you don't want to

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Speaker 2: talk about something like how do you engage if someone

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Speaker 2: wants to engage you in a conversation that you do

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Speaker 2: not want to be engaged.

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Speaker 4: I'm a big yapper like I cannot ever be a

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Speaker 4: gray rock. I want to be, but I actually get

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Speaker 4: offended when someone's gray rocking me because I'm not there

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Speaker 4: to argue with them, which I think that article was

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Speaker 4: speculating that people just want to argue. I just love

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Speaker 4: a gossip, sesshon. I just want all the information. And

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Speaker 4: I've been gray rocked by a friend, which I feel

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Speaker 4: is so annoying in a way where I would like

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Speaker 4: ask about her life, like how's your partner? And then

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Speaker 4: she doesn't want to give me too much information. And

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Speaker 4: I don't see her as like gray rocking, as in

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Speaker 4: like she's being dull and boring. I see that as

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Speaker 4: she doesn't trust me enough to talk more about her life.

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Speaker 3: She probably doesn't, so it's a full of disengagement.

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Speaker 2: I do this like if there's something I really don't

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Speaker 2: want to talk about, Like, for example, at the moment

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Speaker 2: in my life, my least favorite question in the entire

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Speaker 2: world is how's the book going? Right? If somebody asked

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Speaker 2: me that fucking question just because it's difficult, I mean, rewrites,

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Speaker 2: it's hard, Like I just I don't want to talk

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Speaker 2: about it.

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Speaker 3: I asked her that in the kitchen at work, and

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Speaker 3: she gray robed me.

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Speaker 2: I did, And I do it with my friends and

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Speaker 2: sometimes they get upset. They'll be like, how's the book going?

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Speaker 2: That's just an example.

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Speaker 3: That's my curse with all of your books, and pretty

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Speaker 3: much most of the authors I know, they gray rock

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Speaker 3: that question, how's the book? And I don't know why.

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Speaker 2: It's because this is how it goes. If I don't

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Speaker 2: write so and I do this, I don't just do

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Speaker 2: this with you me or I do it with everything

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Speaker 2: and not always, but when you're at these tricky periods

378
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Speaker 2: that you're at, sometimes I'll just say I don't want

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Speaker 2: to talk about it, right. But the thing is is

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Speaker 2: if you say I don't want to talk about it,

381
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Speaker 2: it sounds like there's a big story. So then your

382
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Speaker 2: friend wants to open that door. Oh, why what's going on?

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Speaker 2: And they keep pushing because like the example that you

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Speaker 2: just gave, they probably think I'm being either rude or withholding.

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Speaker 2: There's really good gossip there, but I just don't want

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Speaker 2: to talk about it because I'm figuring it out because

387
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Speaker 2: I just don't want to talk about it, and I

388
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Speaker 2: don't have to. But there's no law that says I

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Speaker 2: have to talk about things.

390
00:18:06,127 --> 00:18:08,767
Speaker 3: I remember, I don't know you are paid to be

391
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Speaker 3: in a podcast.

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Speaker 4: Call you in a particularly bad time where I asked,

393
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Speaker 4: how's your book and you just said nope, And I.

394
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Speaker 2: Was like, I got it. Shut down.

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Speaker 4: Shut down that was like hardcore, that was a cold

396
00:18:19,127 --> 00:18:22,007
Speaker 4: that wasn't just a gray rock? So is that rude?

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Speaker 2: Is there a way to shut down a conversation you

398
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Speaker 2: don't want to have that isn't rude? Is gray rocking

399
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Speaker 2: always rude?

400
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Speaker 4: I think you saying I don't want to talk about

401
00:18:30,127 --> 00:18:33,767
Speaker 4: it is better than trying to gray rock someone and

402
00:18:33,847 --> 00:18:37,767
Speaker 4: like shifting the conversation. But yeah, there's also there's also

403
00:18:37,807 --> 00:18:40,047
Speaker 4: the idea of soft gray rocking, where you like keep

404
00:18:40,087 --> 00:18:42,767
Speaker 4: having the conversation, but you're not giving them the answer

405
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Speaker 4: they want. So a TikTok gave an example of like

406
00:18:45,647 --> 00:18:47,527
Speaker 4: if you're looking for a job, and instead of saying

407
00:18:47,527 --> 00:18:49,887
Speaker 4: to your friend it's really hard to find a job,

408
00:18:50,047 --> 00:18:53,887
Speaker 4: you say, I'm networking right now, still searching, so you're

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Speaker 4: not going too deep into the emotion factor.

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Speaker 2: I agree.

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Speaker 3: So I think that the point of gray rocking is

412
00:18:59,847 --> 00:19:03,087
Speaker 3: to not invite further questions or speculations. So I think

413
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Speaker 3: instead of saying I don't want to talk about it

414
00:19:05,567 --> 00:19:07,727
Speaker 3: for the reasons that you just said, you should just

415
00:19:07,767 --> 00:19:12,287
Speaker 3: say get there. Yeah, And because that's like a boring thing,

416
00:19:12,727 --> 00:19:15,807
Speaker 3: like how is your weekend? Not that that's just a

417
00:19:15,847 --> 00:19:18,727
Speaker 3: boring answer, that's gray Rock, instead of going.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I don't want to talk about it because that's

419
00:19:20,367 --> 00:19:23,087
Speaker 2: not actually gray Rock. That's not gray Rock. I'm being

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Speaker 2: a bit of a drama queen.

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Speaker 3: Well, you're not intentionally being a drama queen. You're probably

422
00:19:27,487 --> 00:19:29,407
Speaker 3: being really honest because you don't.

423
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Speaker 4: Want to put in that emotion in there so they

424
00:19:31,007 --> 00:19:33,327
Speaker 4: know how you feel. Yeah, gray Rock.

425
00:19:33,367 --> 00:19:37,007
Speaker 3: Is boring, and yet it knows where it stands. So

426
00:19:37,207 --> 00:19:41,447
Speaker 3: if someone tries to engage you in a conversation about politics,

427
00:19:42,047 --> 00:19:45,687
Speaker 3: you just say like a platitude, Yeah, God, what a time,

428
00:19:46,887 --> 00:19:50,007
Speaker 3: or like oh it's so difficult, isn't it? And it's

429
00:19:50,127 --> 00:19:53,767
Speaker 3: not what they want. And so what they'll do is

430
00:19:53,767 --> 00:19:56,487
Speaker 3: that they're looking for someone to match their level of

431
00:19:56,527 --> 00:20:00,247
Speaker 3: intensity and their level of passion and engagement. And if

432
00:20:00,287 --> 00:20:03,127
Speaker 3: you don't offer that to them, they'll go find someone

433
00:20:03,127 --> 00:20:05,967
Speaker 3: else who will. That's how it gets you out of it.

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Speaker 4: That's smart. Okay. I think I need to adopt this.

435
00:20:08,447 --> 00:20:10,727
Speaker 3: Because it's like being a smart target. It's making yourself

436
00:20:10,727 --> 00:20:12,847
Speaker 3: a really small target. If I say how's the book

437
00:20:12,887 --> 00:20:15,647
Speaker 3: and you go get there, there's nothing left to say.

438
00:20:15,847 --> 00:20:18,367
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm so gonna say that yeah. From now on,

439
00:20:18,807 --> 00:20:20,727
Speaker 2: in my mind, all I'm going to think is gray rock,

440
00:20:21,007 --> 00:20:23,567
Speaker 2: gray rock, but not like gray rock that I'm throwing

441
00:20:23,607 --> 00:20:25,847
Speaker 2: it at you, like, don't want to talk about it.

442
00:20:25,847 --> 00:20:26,607
Speaker 2: It's just gray rock.

443
00:20:26,687 --> 00:20:31,087
Speaker 3: Like out louders tell us what your gray rock phrases are.

444
00:20:31,247 --> 00:20:33,527
Speaker 3: It's like we need to build a tool kit, neit,

445
00:20:33,567 --> 00:20:36,847
Speaker 3: a bible of phrases that you can throw out there,

446
00:20:36,927 --> 00:20:38,047
Speaker 3: like what a time?

447
00:20:41,647 --> 00:20:43,927
Speaker 4: And I have to practice saying it without sounding sarcastic

448
00:20:43,967 --> 00:20:44,327
Speaker 4: as well.

449
00:20:44,487 --> 00:20:47,447
Speaker 3: Exactly, you have to deliver it in a really really neutral,

450
00:20:47,487 --> 00:20:49,727
Speaker 3: monotone way. How do you do it verbally versus in

451
00:20:49,767 --> 00:20:52,847
Speaker 3: a text message? Sometimes I find the text message version

452
00:20:52,847 --> 00:20:55,687
Speaker 3: of gray rock could be an emoji, sometimes just a

453
00:20:55,767 --> 00:20:59,327
Speaker 3: thumbs up or just a like a shocked face is

454
00:20:59,367 --> 00:21:01,727
Speaker 3: a version of a gray rock because it's like it's

455
00:21:01,727 --> 00:21:04,007
Speaker 3: a blank canvas, really, but it just says yep, I

456
00:21:04,087 --> 00:21:05,687
Speaker 3: hear you. Nothing to add.

457
00:21:05,727 --> 00:21:07,967
Speaker 2: It's interesting, isn't it that we think it's rude to

458
00:21:08,127 --> 00:21:10,887
Speaker 2: not jump in and get with everybody when actually you

459
00:21:10,887 --> 00:21:11,727
Speaker 2: don't know everybody.

460
00:21:11,767 --> 00:21:14,127
Speaker 4: All your explanations, I think it depends on the person.

461
00:21:14,487 --> 00:21:17,407
Speaker 3: That's what Princess Kate is. She's gray rocking. Yes, she's trying.

462
00:21:18,087 --> 00:21:18,487
Speaker 2: It's me.

463
00:21:19,127 --> 00:21:20,447
Speaker 3: I'm a gray Rock.

464
00:21:22,807 --> 00:21:26,407
Speaker 2: Every Tuesday and Thursday we drop new segments of Mom

465
00:21:26,447 --> 00:21:29,807
Speaker 2: and Me Are Out Loud just for Mom and Mia subscribers.

466
00:21:30,367 --> 00:21:32,167
Speaker 2: Follow the link in the show notes to get your

467
00:21:32,247 --> 00:21:35,087
Speaker 2: daily dose of Out Loud and a big thank you

468
00:21:35,127 --> 00:21:38,287
Speaker 2: to all our current subscribers.

469
00:21:42,127 --> 00:21:45,047
Speaker 3: Everything old is new again. First, it was ballet flats

470
00:21:45,247 --> 00:21:48,247
Speaker 3: that came back. Then low rise jeans, although they seem

471
00:21:48,287 --> 00:21:51,167
Speaker 3: to have disappeared again thank god, because everybody said get stuffed.

472
00:21:51,927 --> 00:21:54,807
Speaker 3: Now it's the turn of lads mags to make a

473
00:21:54,847 --> 00:21:58,207
Speaker 3: resurgence with the news that Loaded magazine is coming back.

474
00:21:58,287 --> 00:22:01,127
Speaker 3: In the UK, there was a headline that caught out

475
00:22:01,127 --> 00:22:04,887
Speaker 3: behind this week that said Loaded Magazine the saddest relaunch

476
00:22:04,887 --> 00:22:07,407
Speaker 3: in history or a safe space for middle aged men.

477
00:22:09,767 --> 00:22:13,207
Speaker 3: If you don't remember what Loaded magazine was, you'll know

478
00:22:13,527 --> 00:22:15,447
Speaker 3: the genre of magazine that it.

479
00:22:15,487 --> 00:22:16,047
Speaker 2: Was part of.

480
00:22:16,807 --> 00:22:19,447
Speaker 3: They were huge worldwide back in the nineties and early

481
00:22:19,487 --> 00:22:22,447
Speaker 3: two thousands, before anyone knew what sexism was or that

482
00:22:22,487 --> 00:22:24,167
Speaker 3: telling a woman she had nice chits is not a

483
00:22:24,167 --> 00:22:28,527
Speaker 3: great thing to do at work. There was the Australian version, which.

484
00:22:28,367 --> 00:22:29,087
Speaker 2: Was called Ralph.

485
00:22:29,407 --> 00:22:31,327
Speaker 4: Remember Ralph, no I don't I worked.

486
00:22:31,127 --> 00:22:32,647
Speaker 3: In that, No, you wouldn't. I worked in the same

487
00:22:32,647 --> 00:22:35,087
Speaker 3: magazine company as Ralph, and there were some great journalists

488
00:22:35,087 --> 00:22:37,767
Speaker 3: who used to write for Ralph. There was FHM, and

489
00:22:37,927 --> 00:22:40,607
Speaker 3: of course Loaded. They were kind of like Playboy or Penthouse,

490
00:22:41,047 --> 00:22:43,887
Speaker 3: but without actual new nudity. Like the closest I would

491
00:22:43,927 --> 00:22:46,047
Speaker 3: say is that they were like Cosmo or Cleo, but

492
00:22:46,207 --> 00:22:49,647
Speaker 3: for men, except they also had women on the cover,

493
00:22:49,727 --> 00:22:52,007
Speaker 3: which was weird. Isn't not funny how women's magazines had

494
00:22:52,007 --> 00:22:54,207
Speaker 3: women on the cover and men's magazines had women on

495
00:22:54,247 --> 00:22:54,967
Speaker 3: the cover as well.

496
00:22:55,127 --> 00:22:56,887
Speaker 4: Sometimes they had a car, which is kind of.

497
00:22:57,087 --> 00:22:59,807
Speaker 3: No, they didn't, not those lads' mags because it was

498
00:22:59,807 --> 00:23:01,207
Speaker 3: all about being a lad. Can you explain what.

499
00:23:01,207 --> 00:23:04,967
Speaker 2: A ladd in Britain actually when Loaded first launched, And

500
00:23:05,047 --> 00:23:08,647
Speaker 2: it's hard to overstate the cultural shift that magazine represented.

501
00:23:09,287 --> 00:23:11,847
Speaker 2: Magazine couldn't affect culture in that way now, there's just

502
00:23:11,887 --> 00:23:14,447
Speaker 2: no way, you know, but it really it was a

503
00:23:14,487 --> 00:23:16,727
Speaker 2: new genre. It was an entirely new genre. They did

504
00:23:16,807 --> 00:23:18,367
Speaker 2: used to have men on the cover, but in a

505
00:23:18,487 --> 00:23:21,007
Speaker 2: very stylish, stylized way, and then they'd also have women,

506
00:23:21,007 --> 00:23:22,887
Speaker 2: and then as it evolved, it just turned into women

507
00:23:23,367 --> 00:23:26,327
Speaker 2: but Loaded. When it launched, it said the editor was

508
00:23:26,367 --> 00:23:29,807
Speaker 2: this guy called James Brown who became like an absolute celebrity.

509
00:23:30,247 --> 00:23:34,287
Speaker 2: And he said, Loaded is a new magazine dedicated to life, liberty,

510
00:23:34,327 --> 00:23:37,127
Speaker 2: and the pursuit of sex, drink, football and less serious matters.

511
00:23:37,287 --> 00:23:40,447
Speaker 2: Loaded his music, film, relationships, humor, travel sport, hard news

512
00:23:40,447 --> 00:23:43,607
Speaker 2: and popular culture. Loaded his clubbing, drinking, eating, playing and eating.

513
00:23:43,887 --> 00:23:45,567
Speaker 2: Loaded is for the man who believes he can do

514
00:23:45,567 --> 00:23:48,127
Speaker 2: anything if only he wasn't hungover. So you get the vibe.

515
00:23:48,807 --> 00:23:52,207
Speaker 2: This is the hard partying nineties, and it was hard

516
00:23:52,247 --> 00:23:55,927
Speaker 2: partying in those days. And it was like, we are

517
00:23:56,207 --> 00:23:59,127
Speaker 2: blokes who like we might like a smart political article,

518
00:23:59,167 --> 00:24:01,647
Speaker 2: and actually politicians used to try and get interviewed in

519
00:24:01,687 --> 00:24:04,687
Speaker 2: these magazines because they were so influential. But we also

520
00:24:04,727 --> 00:24:07,367
Speaker 2: want to look at a woman in arundes and really

521
00:24:07,407 --> 00:24:10,327
Speaker 2: famous women would go unloaded in those days. They weren't

522
00:24:10,367 --> 00:24:15,327
Speaker 2: like naked naked, but they were very male gayzy to

523
00:24:15,447 --> 00:24:15,767
Speaker 2: use me.

524
00:24:15,887 --> 00:24:19,367
Speaker 3: So they would be in like lingerie or like tiny

525
00:24:19,367 --> 00:24:23,007
Speaker 3: little denim cutoffs, like very sexy, or like swimsuits that

526
00:24:23,087 --> 00:24:23,527
Speaker 3: kind of thing.

527
00:24:23,567 --> 00:24:28,247
Speaker 4: So it's probably not a thing like well, different thing.

528
00:24:28,487 --> 00:24:31,727
Speaker 3: There was like Playboy in Penthouse and those magazines, but

529
00:24:31,767 --> 00:24:34,567
Speaker 3: this didn't have actual nudity. It was like it had

530
00:24:34,567 --> 00:24:36,527
Speaker 3: a little bit of clothes, but it was the same

531
00:24:36,607 --> 00:24:41,167
Speaker 3: sort of objectifying cultural attitude to women that women are decorative,

532
00:24:41,167 --> 00:24:43,767
Speaker 3: women are there to be ogled at and looked at,

533
00:24:43,887 --> 00:24:46,847
Speaker 3: and so now it's coming back because that's what we want.

534
00:24:48,327 --> 00:24:51,647
Speaker 3: But here's the twist. It has a female editor. The

535
00:24:51,727 --> 00:24:55,247
Speaker 3: magazine's executive editor is a woman named Danny Levy. She's

536
00:24:55,287 --> 00:24:58,767
Speaker 3: not a journalist, so she's a fitness influencer, no shade,

537
00:24:58,927 --> 00:25:00,967
Speaker 3: and she said, our goal is to bring back all

538
00:25:01,007 --> 00:25:03,607
Speaker 3: of those things that thirty five to fifty five year

539
00:25:03,647 --> 00:25:07,527
Speaker 3: old men are being cheated out of by society being

540
00:25:07,567 --> 00:25:10,807
Speaker 3: able to ogle beautiful women like is Hurly, Melinda Messenger

541
00:25:11,127 --> 00:25:14,887
Speaker 3: or Pamela Anderson. So you can see this is appealing

542
00:25:14,927 --> 00:25:16,967
Speaker 3: to the reader of these mags who were in their

543
00:25:16,967 --> 00:25:20,727
Speaker 3: twenties and thirties or even teens back then and are

544
00:25:20,767 --> 00:25:23,767
Speaker 3: now a bit older than that. She went on to say,

545
00:25:23,767 --> 00:25:26,607
Speaker 3: the original loaded audience who are now living happily at

546
00:25:26,607 --> 00:25:29,367
Speaker 3: home with their wife and kids, but still reminisce about

547
00:25:29,367 --> 00:25:32,927
Speaker 3: their nights spent clubbing until three am, drinking one dollar

548
00:25:32,927 --> 00:25:36,647
Speaker 3: shots with a bedroom covered in posters of half naked women. Yes,

549
00:25:36,807 --> 00:25:42,767
Speaker 3: those were good old days, Holly, Should you.

550
00:25:42,927 --> 00:25:43,847
Speaker 2: Live with a man in that?

551
00:25:43,927 --> 00:25:44,127
Speaker 5: DEVI?

552
00:25:44,247 --> 00:25:47,767
Speaker 3: It's so true? What should we do about the fact

553
00:25:47,807 --> 00:25:52,007
Speaker 3: that men have lost the right to ogil innocently? Is

554
00:25:52,047 --> 00:25:54,167
Speaker 3: there a march we could go on? Can we contribute

555
00:25:54,207 --> 00:25:55,007
Speaker 3: to a gofund me?

556
00:25:55,647 --> 00:25:57,767
Speaker 4: Do we buy all the copies and then keeping mouth?

557
00:25:58,367 --> 00:26:00,687
Speaker 2: Won't somebody think of the poor middle aged men.

558
00:26:00,607 --> 00:26:02,807
Speaker 3: Who come out and I feel so sorry for them.

559
00:26:02,847 --> 00:26:05,127
Speaker 2: There was a place they could go to look at

560
00:26:05,207 --> 00:26:08,887
Speaker 2: naked women and the privacy of their own home. I

561
00:26:08,927 --> 00:26:11,567
Speaker 2: don't think anyone thinks this relaunch is going to work

562
00:26:11,647 --> 00:26:15,367
Speaker 2: because of the Internet. But what's really interesting when you

563
00:26:15,407 --> 00:26:17,927
Speaker 2: dig into what they're talking about here, and so it's

564
00:26:18,047 --> 00:26:21,207
Speaker 2: kind of doing this like we're pushing back against political correctness.

565
00:26:21,247 --> 00:26:24,007
Speaker 2: But this woman has also said that she wants loaded

566
00:26:24,047 --> 00:26:27,047
Speaker 2: to be a safe space, which is a very millennial

567
00:26:27,127 --> 00:26:30,887
Speaker 2: term for men who are like scared and repulsed by

568
00:26:30,887 --> 00:26:33,847
Speaker 2: the extremity of porn online. Yeah, but want to look

569
00:26:33,847 --> 00:26:37,167
Speaker 2: at a nice pair of boobs. They're obviously deciding that

570
00:26:37,207 --> 00:26:40,007
Speaker 2: there is a gap in the market for that. I

571
00:26:40,167 --> 00:26:42,367
Speaker 2: don't think there is a gap in the market for that,

572
00:26:42,447 --> 00:26:45,567
Speaker 2: because aren't we surrounded by that a lot of the time.

573
00:26:45,687 --> 00:26:49,687
Speaker 3: Well that's called Instagram. Yeah, I'm going to defend this

574
00:26:49,847 --> 00:26:54,727
Speaker 3: idea because I was thinking about it. How are those

575
00:26:54,767 --> 00:26:59,727
Speaker 3: magazines different to the way women's magazines and girls magazines

576
00:26:59,807 --> 00:27:04,167
Speaker 3: like Dolly and Cleo and Cosmo used to objectify men

577
00:27:04,487 --> 00:27:06,167
Speaker 3: Like I know, we didn't have them on the cover,

578
00:27:06,407 --> 00:27:10,647
Speaker 3: but there were pinups of hot teenage with their shirts off.

579
00:27:10,887 --> 00:27:14,607
Speaker 3: Cleo had Australia's fifty most eligible bachelors every year the

580
00:27:14,687 --> 00:27:19,247
Speaker 3: Male Centerfold. That desire shouldn't be villified, or we shouldn't

581
00:27:19,287 --> 00:27:22,607
Speaker 3: shame people for it. So where can people do that

582
00:27:22,647 --> 00:27:24,007
Speaker 3: in a way that's not creepy?

583
00:27:24,247 --> 00:27:27,287
Speaker 2: Well, everywhere anywhere on the internet where there are pictures

584
00:27:27,327 --> 00:27:29,607
Speaker 2: of women. What are things I find really interesting about

585
00:27:29,607 --> 00:27:32,967
Speaker 2: this because really, if you track the history of those magazines,

586
00:27:33,447 --> 00:27:35,167
Speaker 2: and I was of the age as you were, me

587
00:27:35,247 --> 00:27:38,247
Speaker 2: aware and particularly in Britain just before I left to

588
00:27:38,247 --> 00:27:42,207
Speaker 2: come to Australia, this was the culture and women were

589
00:27:42,247 --> 00:27:44,767
Speaker 2: part of it, right. We were quite convinced that this

590
00:27:44,967 --> 00:27:47,927
Speaker 2: was like quite revolutionary and cool and girls could be

591
00:27:48,007 --> 00:27:50,047
Speaker 2: lads too because women could go out drinking as well

592
00:27:50,087 --> 00:27:53,007
Speaker 2: and have fun with the boys. And we didn't hate

593
00:27:53,047 --> 00:27:55,447
Speaker 2: those magazines in the way that we had come to

594
00:27:55,527 --> 00:27:58,367
Speaker 2: understand that Playboy and Penthouse and stuff was sexist, that

595
00:27:58,407 --> 00:28:01,007
Speaker 2: the Benny Hill Show was sexist. You know that page

596
00:28:01,007 --> 00:28:03,647
Speaker 2: three we literally had in the newspaper in Britain. You

597
00:28:03,687 --> 00:28:05,167
Speaker 2: opened it on page three, there was a picture of

598
00:28:05,207 --> 00:28:07,847
Speaker 2: a topless woman, that that was sexist. This was like

599
00:28:07,887 --> 00:28:10,007
Speaker 2: the next wave, and I thought we were in on

600
00:28:10,087 --> 00:28:13,647
Speaker 2: the joke. But what happened, perhaps inevitably, as with all

601
00:28:13,687 --> 00:28:18,487
Speaker 2: cultural shifts, is it got polluted and poisoned and became

602
00:28:18,607 --> 00:28:21,047
Speaker 2: very clear eight years later or whatever, that we weren't

603
00:28:21,047 --> 00:28:22,607
Speaker 2: in on the joke, and that we were every bit

604
00:28:22,647 --> 00:28:25,967
Speaker 2: as much commodified and objectified by it as all those

605
00:28:26,007 --> 00:28:26,567
Speaker 2: other things.

606
00:28:26,687 --> 00:28:26,887
Speaker 1: Right.

607
00:28:27,447 --> 00:28:30,367
Speaker 2: The reason that they stopped selling, though, is because of

608
00:28:30,407 --> 00:28:32,847
Speaker 2: the Internet. That's really why they stopped selling. It's not

609
00:28:32,927 --> 00:28:35,247
Speaker 2: like men suddenly went I don't want to look at

610
00:28:35,327 --> 00:28:38,727
Speaker 2: naked women anymore. It's that they went, there's somewhere I

611
00:28:38,767 --> 00:28:39,807
Speaker 2: can do that for free.

612
00:28:39,887 --> 00:28:42,927
Speaker 3: So what about this idea? And I'm interested to hear

613
00:28:42,967 --> 00:28:46,527
Speaker 3: what you think about this being a middle ground, because

614
00:28:46,527 --> 00:28:48,167
Speaker 3: of course you could look at all of these women.

615
00:28:48,727 --> 00:28:50,367
Speaker 3: You could look at porn. You could look at all

616
00:28:50,367 --> 00:28:53,087
Speaker 3: of that for free on the internet. But what about

617
00:28:53,127 --> 00:28:55,487
Speaker 3: what Holly said about how there are some guys who

618
00:28:55,687 --> 00:28:58,247
Speaker 3: might want to look at attractive women, but they don't

619
00:28:58,247 --> 00:29:00,567
Speaker 3: want to be creepy. They've got problems with porn. They

620
00:29:00,567 --> 00:29:03,007
Speaker 3: don't want to watch porn. It's creepy if they're just

621
00:29:03,087 --> 00:29:05,727
Speaker 3: on Instagram following a whole lot of fitness influences and

622
00:29:05,767 --> 00:29:08,887
Speaker 3: bikini models. So where do they go.

623
00:29:09,247 --> 00:29:13,087
Speaker 4: I'm just really confused on why these men staring at

624
00:29:13,127 --> 00:29:15,767
Speaker 4: these photos of women who are like semi clothed. What

625
00:29:15,887 --> 00:29:18,327
Speaker 4: goes through their heads that's different to what goes through

626
00:29:18,327 --> 00:29:21,487
Speaker 4: their heads when they're watching porn. Like, I don't understand

627
00:29:21,527 --> 00:29:25,727
Speaker 4: where the difference happens, because it's still like salacious. It's

628
00:29:25,727 --> 00:29:28,767
Speaker 4: still like photos that they're ashamed to be looking at.

629
00:29:28,967 --> 00:29:31,047
Speaker 3: Why do they have to be ashamed? Like why is

630
00:29:31,087 --> 00:29:33,287
Speaker 3: admiring someone of the opposite sex?

631
00:29:33,367 --> 00:29:37,167
Speaker 4: But are they admiring it? They're like oo ogling.

632
00:29:38,327 --> 00:29:40,967
Speaker 3: Okay, So when photos are on the Daily Mail of

633
00:29:41,007 --> 00:29:43,367
Speaker 3: Chris Hemsworth on the set of a movie or surfing

634
00:29:43,447 --> 00:29:47,207
Speaker 3: with his shirt off, and women are like, oh, look

635
00:29:47,247 --> 00:29:51,567
Speaker 3: at him or go to a bachelorette party. Yeah, exactly,

636
00:29:51,567 --> 00:29:53,247
Speaker 3: and they are male strippers or they go to a

637
00:29:53,327 --> 00:29:56,087
Speaker 3: club or whatever. That seems to be okay.

638
00:29:56,447 --> 00:29:59,287
Speaker 4: I don't think where like looking at Chris Hemsworth and

639
00:29:59,287 --> 00:30:02,407
Speaker 4: then just staring at him and staring at his abs

640
00:30:02,447 --> 00:30:04,967
Speaker 4: and thinking about him and thinking about having sex, and

641
00:30:05,007 --> 00:30:07,967
Speaker 4: then downloading the photo or buying a magazine just to

642
00:30:08,007 --> 00:30:08,527
Speaker 4: look at him.

643
00:30:08,607 --> 00:30:11,047
Speaker 3: You don't know. So when we had women's magazines in

644
00:30:11,087 --> 00:30:13,447
Speaker 3: the nineties and way before the nineties and into the

645
00:30:13,487 --> 00:30:17,087
Speaker 3: early two thousands, the idea of objectifying men was so

646
00:30:17,167 --> 00:30:20,127
Speaker 3: subversive that that is what we did. So there were

647
00:30:20,167 --> 00:30:23,207
Speaker 3: posters of hot guys. I mean, when girls grow up,

648
00:30:23,247 --> 00:30:25,287
Speaker 3: they have guys celebrity.

649
00:30:25,887 --> 00:30:28,447
Speaker 4: It's different to having like model like guys. Like I

650
00:30:28,447 --> 00:30:30,447
Speaker 4: would have posters of Jesse McCartney on my wall, but

651
00:30:30,487 --> 00:30:32,407
Speaker 4: it was because I was like, that's going to be

652
00:30:32,487 --> 00:30:34,927
Speaker 4: my future husband, not because he was a sexy man

653
00:30:34,927 --> 00:30:35,527
Speaker 4: that I was like.

654
00:30:35,967 --> 00:30:38,367
Speaker 3: And you didn't want to just get to know his personality?

655
00:30:38,847 --> 00:30:41,327
Speaker 3: I did, Yeah, but come on, you're a horny.

656
00:30:41,087 --> 00:30:43,807
Speaker 4: Little Teenager's aney teenager? But looking at him, But I

657
00:30:43,847 --> 00:30:47,487
Speaker 4: wouldn't be like ogling him and I wouldn't be buying

658
00:30:47,527 --> 00:30:50,727
Speaker 4: magazines that were just of like hot men to look at.

659
00:30:51,127 --> 00:30:52,807
Speaker 3: I think that's not the only thing that's in these

660
00:30:52,807 --> 00:30:53,687
Speaker 3: magazines to be.

661
00:30:53,727 --> 00:30:56,167
Speaker 2: Well, no, so, I mean the thing about these magazines

662
00:30:56,327 --> 00:30:58,367
Speaker 2: is that, And certainly at the beginning, I don't think

663
00:30:58,367 --> 00:31:01,367
Speaker 2: its a magazine. Is that's true? I don't.

664
00:31:01,527 --> 00:31:02,087
Speaker 4: I don't get it.

665
00:31:02,167 --> 00:31:04,367
Speaker 2: You know how there's that cliche that, oh, men, I

666
00:31:04,447 --> 00:31:06,607
Speaker 2: used to buy Playboy for the articles, right, that's like

667
00:31:06,647 --> 00:31:08,167
Speaker 2: a thing that people say. And the thing is is

668
00:31:08,247 --> 00:31:10,007
Speaker 2: there was an element of that that's true. There was

669
00:31:10,047 --> 00:31:11,927
Speaker 2: a time in the sixties and seventies and stuff where

670
00:31:11,967 --> 00:31:14,287
Speaker 2: the best journalists in the world wrote for those magazines

671
00:31:14,887 --> 00:31:17,367
Speaker 2: next to the pictures of the naked ladies, right yeah.

672
00:31:17,567 --> 00:31:19,687
Speaker 2: And then in the nineties that's kind of what happened

673
00:31:19,727 --> 00:31:22,207
Speaker 2: in the Best of these Lads mags. So the loaded

674
00:31:22,287 --> 00:31:26,567
Speaker 2: ralph irreverent, funny, smart journalism, as I say, as it

675
00:31:26,647 --> 00:31:29,847
Speaker 2: kind of descended into a cost cutting let's just say

676
00:31:29,847 --> 00:31:32,527
Speaker 2: what it is and do away with the articles. That changed.

677
00:31:32,847 --> 00:31:35,767
Speaker 2: But the idea was then I suppose that you know,

678
00:31:35,807 --> 00:31:38,567
Speaker 2: how we say about women, we can be interested in,

679
00:31:39,207 --> 00:31:41,687
Speaker 2: you know, serious things and silly things. We can be

680
00:31:41,767 --> 00:31:45,287
Speaker 2: interested in lipstick and politics whatever. That was basically the

681
00:31:45,327 --> 00:31:49,287
Speaker 2: premise of these magazines. Men could be interested in reading

682
00:31:49,487 --> 00:31:51,927
Speaker 2: an interview with the Prime Minister and want to look

683
00:31:51,927 --> 00:31:53,687
Speaker 2: at a picture of a woman with her tits out

684
00:31:53,927 --> 00:31:56,567
Speaker 2: and at the time looking at a woman a picture

685
00:31:56,567 --> 00:31:58,167
Speaker 2: of a woman with the tits out. If you were

686
00:31:58,207 --> 00:32:01,767
Speaker 2: doing it with like this sort of slightly ironic raised

687
00:32:01,807 --> 00:32:05,207
Speaker 2: eyebrow that these magazines pretended they had was like fine,

688
00:32:05,687 --> 00:32:08,207
Speaker 2: Where that led us? They were also in humor, they

689
00:32:08,207 --> 00:32:11,207
Speaker 2: were funny, like the best of them were very very funny.

690
00:32:11,607 --> 00:32:13,447
Speaker 2: Where that led us though, And that's what I mean

691
00:32:13,487 --> 00:32:15,247
Speaker 2: when I say I feel like we were all sold

692
00:32:15,487 --> 00:32:18,167
Speaker 2: a big lie. There is Where it led us, though,

693
00:32:18,527 --> 00:32:22,167
Speaker 2: was to just the same objectified place that we started in.

694
00:32:22,407 --> 00:32:22,607
Speaker 1: Right.

695
00:32:23,247 --> 00:32:26,487
Speaker 2: I don't think you can make the comparison with men

696
00:32:26,567 --> 00:32:28,887
Speaker 2: with their shirts off in girls magazines. I just don't,

697
00:32:28,927 --> 00:32:31,767
Speaker 2: because I just think the politics, the history, all of

698
00:32:31,807 --> 00:32:33,567
Speaker 2: the cultural context of that doesn't work.

699
00:32:33,687 --> 00:32:33,847
Speaker 1: Right.

700
00:32:33,847 --> 00:32:34,887
Speaker 2: I just don't think it does.

701
00:32:35,007 --> 00:32:36,807
Speaker 3: No, no, no, But once said, because all I was

702
00:32:36,807 --> 00:32:41,047
Speaker 3: comparing is that there will always be an innate human

703
00:32:41,127 --> 00:32:43,607
Speaker 3: desire to look at people that you want to have

704
00:32:43,647 --> 00:32:44,087
Speaker 3: sex with.

705
00:32:44,207 --> 00:32:46,487
Speaker 2: And I think that that I mean of course there

706
00:32:46,527 --> 00:32:48,527
Speaker 2: is right, And I think what's interesting is what's coming

707
00:32:48,567 --> 00:32:50,327
Speaker 2: through and what am saying, I don't want to misrepresent you,

708
00:32:51,007 --> 00:32:53,287
Speaker 2: is that we should all at least pretend that that's

709
00:32:53,327 --> 00:32:54,807
Speaker 2: not what we want to do. We don't want to

710
00:32:54,807 --> 00:32:57,607
Speaker 2: look at pictures of beautiful people, Whereas what I think

711
00:32:57,687 --> 00:33:00,167
Speaker 2: is actually what's happened is people will always want to

712
00:33:00,207 --> 00:33:01,847
Speaker 2: do that and they've just found another way to do

713
00:33:01,887 --> 00:33:06,767
Speaker 2: it that's free. And the notion that men need permission

714
00:33:07,567 --> 00:33:11,967
Speaker 2: to ogle women and that's what this magazine is aiming

715
00:33:12,007 --> 00:33:14,087
Speaker 2: to give them back. That's what she's saying, like, we're

716
00:33:14,127 --> 00:33:16,527
Speaker 2: giving it back to you, the permission to have a

717
00:33:16,647 --> 00:33:20,927
Speaker 2: more innocent, sort of dopamine hit of nudity. Because she

718
00:33:21,007 --> 00:33:22,687
Speaker 2: was saying, you know, they've been turned off by the

719
00:33:22,727 --> 00:33:24,727
Speaker 2: extreme nature of porn. Well a, i'd be like, how

720
00:33:24,927 --> 00:33:26,927
Speaker 2: they like, I hope so, But I don't know that

721
00:33:26,927 --> 00:33:30,047
Speaker 2: that's true. But like, I think it's a flawed business

722
00:33:30,047 --> 00:33:32,887
Speaker 2: model because I don't think that men have stopped looking

723
00:33:32,887 --> 00:33:34,847
Speaker 2: at naked women, you know what I mean, I just don't.

724
00:33:35,007 --> 00:33:36,567
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think it's going to work either. But

725
00:33:36,607 --> 00:33:40,127
Speaker 3: all magazines ever were whoever they were for is curation

726
00:33:40,647 --> 00:33:44,527
Speaker 3: of content, and so this is saying that we will

727
00:33:44,567 --> 00:33:47,447
Speaker 3: curate content, and we'll put things about alcohol, and will

728
00:33:47,487 --> 00:33:50,687
Speaker 3: put things. It's talking to a nostalgia in a group

729
00:33:50,767 --> 00:33:52,447
Speaker 3: of men who were gen X men.

730
00:33:52,567 --> 00:33:55,447
Speaker 2: And it's true that it was more socially acceptable. So

731
00:33:55,527 --> 00:33:58,207
Speaker 2: like if you started dating a guy in the nineties

732
00:33:58,327 --> 00:34:00,687
Speaker 2: and you went round to his house and he had

733
00:34:00,767 --> 00:34:04,207
Speaker 2: a copy of Loaded on the table, you wouldn't necessarily

734
00:34:04,287 --> 00:34:06,927
Speaker 2: think he's a disgusting purv.

735
00:34:07,447 --> 00:34:09,207
Speaker 4: You just mean, like, oh, there must be a great

736
00:34:09,607 --> 00:34:10,687
Speaker 4: on climate change in there.

737
00:34:10,687 --> 00:34:13,647
Speaker 2: Whereas if it was a proper hardcore porn mag and

738
00:34:13,687 --> 00:34:15,487
Speaker 2: it was out on the table, that's a different thing,

739
00:34:15,567 --> 00:34:18,367
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, that's the veneer of respectability.

740
00:34:18,407 --> 00:34:21,487
Speaker 2: So I guess the differentiation there now is it's a

741
00:34:21,487 --> 00:34:24,607
Speaker 2: bit like looking at a woman in a bikini on Instagram,

742
00:34:24,607 --> 00:34:27,527
Speaker 2: which we all know that some only fans, I guess

743
00:34:27,607 --> 00:34:30,127
Speaker 2: is a very obvious place for this, right, Just looking

744
00:34:30,167 --> 00:34:32,767
Speaker 2: at a woman in a bikini is exciting. Is that

745
00:34:32,847 --> 00:34:35,727
Speaker 2: a different line if they're actually looking at porn? What's

746
00:34:35,767 --> 00:34:39,207
Speaker 2: your position on that? That's what this differentiation is supposed

747
00:34:39,207 --> 00:34:39,367
Speaker 2: to be.

748
00:34:39,687 --> 00:34:42,407
Speaker 4: I think it's the same. I actually think sometimes it's

749
00:34:42,447 --> 00:34:44,927
Speaker 4: worse because when you're looking on Instagram at a person,

750
00:34:45,327 --> 00:34:47,847
Speaker 4: you know that's a real life person, and you know

751
00:34:47,927 --> 00:34:50,367
Speaker 4: maybe they're posting it to get heaps of life and

752
00:34:50,487 --> 00:34:53,247
Speaker 4: to get heaps of DMS. You also know they're posting

753
00:34:53,287 --> 00:34:55,847
Speaker 4: it because they are a person who just wants to

754
00:34:55,847 --> 00:34:57,967
Speaker 4: post a bikini pig and look good in it. And

755
00:34:58,007 --> 00:35:00,527
Speaker 4: then you like scroll down and you see a fire

756
00:35:00,567 --> 00:35:03,327
Speaker 4: emoji that's ridden by your boyfriend, and it's embarrassing more

757
00:35:03,327 --> 00:35:06,527
Speaker 4: than anything, it's more embarrassing. It's more embarrassing knowing that

758
00:35:06,607 --> 00:35:09,767
Speaker 4: the rest of the world can see your partner engaging

759
00:35:09,807 --> 00:35:10,767
Speaker 4: in this type of content.

760
00:35:10,847 --> 00:35:14,647
Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's a way for men to there's plausible deniability,

761
00:35:14,727 --> 00:35:18,047
Speaker 3: right because it's like I've bought Loaded magazine. I bought

762
00:35:18,087 --> 00:35:20,927
Speaker 3: it for the articles, Like you could ostensibly say that,

763
00:35:21,047 --> 00:35:24,047
Speaker 3: whereas if you've just got you just watching porn or

764
00:35:24,127 --> 00:35:27,487
Speaker 3: you're just liking some fitness model's photo, that is more

765
00:35:27,487 --> 00:35:29,167
Speaker 3: personal and that is more specific.

766
00:35:29,527 --> 00:35:32,127
Speaker 2: But you can't police what people think and what they

767
00:35:32,127 --> 00:35:35,407
Speaker 2: want to look at because if he's engaging with that photo,

768
00:35:35,487 --> 00:35:38,207
Speaker 2: so say he's looking at hot bikini model on Instagram

769
00:35:38,407 --> 00:35:41,287
Speaker 2: he likes or fire emoges it he's leaving a breadcrumb

770
00:35:41,367 --> 00:35:43,847
Speaker 2: trail like of what he's into, but you can't police

771
00:35:43,927 --> 00:35:46,247
Speaker 2: him from actually just looking at that and like having

772
00:35:46,247 --> 00:35:47,927
Speaker 2: the thoughts he wants to have in his head. And

773
00:35:48,447 --> 00:35:49,887
Speaker 2: one of the things I worry about. I don't want

774
00:35:49,887 --> 00:35:51,607
Speaker 2: to sound like, you know, that's not my bag to

775
00:35:51,647 --> 00:35:53,727
Speaker 2: be all like, oh PC gone mad, But I'm like,

776
00:35:54,607 --> 00:35:57,447
Speaker 2: we can't be in such a puritanical place where we

777
00:35:57,567 --> 00:35:59,527
Speaker 2: literally don't think people should be allowed to look at

778
00:35:59,527 --> 00:35:59,887
Speaker 2: other people.

779
00:35:59,887 --> 00:36:01,167
Speaker 3: And that's what I was trying to say. Do you

780
00:36:01,247 --> 00:36:01,607
Speaker 3: know what I mean?

781
00:36:01,727 --> 00:36:01,887
Speaker 1: Yeah?

782
00:36:02,047 --> 00:36:05,567
Speaker 3: Yeah, how many times have you been in love? Out louders?

783
00:36:05,607 --> 00:36:06,767
Speaker 3: How many times? Do you've been in love?

784
00:36:06,847 --> 00:36:07,007
Speaker 5: Him?

785
00:36:07,207 --> 00:36:10,287
Speaker 4: Too many times? I don't even know what love is really.

786
00:36:10,407 --> 00:36:13,447
Speaker 4: Maybe I'm confused. I should have been an honest conversation.

787
00:36:13,927 --> 00:36:14,447
Speaker 3: That's interesting.

788
00:36:14,487 --> 00:36:16,207
Speaker 2: I've been in love a few times. I think I

789
00:36:16,247 --> 00:36:18,087
Speaker 2: say that on this because is it three?

790
00:36:18,247 --> 00:36:20,927
Speaker 3: Have you been in love three times? On yesterday's episode,

791
00:36:21,087 --> 00:36:23,047
Speaker 3: Holly and I talked about how many times you've been

792
00:36:23,047 --> 00:36:25,807
Speaker 3: in love? It was very interesting conversation I learned about you,

793
00:36:25,887 --> 00:36:28,807
Speaker 3: hollywayen Right. I think that what you feel is kind

794
00:36:28,807 --> 00:36:31,447
Speaker 3: of a little bit different, maybe with each person or

795
00:36:31,447 --> 00:36:33,807
Speaker 3: maybe it's just then how you look at it in hindsight,

796
00:36:34,407 --> 00:36:36,527
Speaker 3: how you think, Oh I thought it was love, but

797
00:36:36,567 --> 00:36:38,407
Speaker 3: actually it was just lust. Or I thought it was love,

798
00:36:38,447 --> 00:36:41,687
Speaker 3: but actually we should have just been friends. Or I

799
00:36:41,687 --> 00:36:44,327
Speaker 3: don't believe that you just have one love in your life.

800
00:36:44,447 --> 00:36:46,927
Speaker 3: I think that you can have lots.

801
00:36:47,287 --> 00:36:49,607
Speaker 2: I've been in love a few times for sure. This

802
00:36:49,647 --> 00:36:51,247
Speaker 2: is why I think. You know, we always talk about

803
00:36:51,287 --> 00:36:55,447
Speaker 2: Jay Lower, Yes, let's talk about her again. Like she

804
00:36:55,687 --> 00:36:58,287
Speaker 2: says herself in that movie that like she's addicted to love.

805
00:36:58,367 --> 00:37:00,407
Speaker 2: She means that first part. That's what she means.

806
00:37:00,487 --> 00:37:01,967
Speaker 3: What do they call it? Liminence?

807
00:37:02,127 --> 00:37:06,487
Speaker 2: Yeah, liminence, limerence. It's that first part of love where

808
00:37:06,527 --> 00:37:07,447
Speaker 2: you're obsessed.

809
00:37:08,087 --> 00:37:09,847
Speaker 3: A link to that episode will be the show notes.

810
00:37:09,847 --> 00:37:11,087
Speaker 3: You can listen right now.

811
00:37:11,367 --> 00:37:13,207
Speaker 2: And if you are looking for other things to listen to.

812
00:37:13,767 --> 00:37:16,647
Speaker 2: On our other shows this week, on our cheating shows,

813
00:37:16,967 --> 00:37:19,847
Speaker 2: when We're Cheating, on When We're Out Loud on Mid

814
00:37:19,927 --> 00:37:21,927
Speaker 2: this week, I had a conversation about bodies, which is

815
00:37:21,927 --> 00:37:23,927
Speaker 2: we're not allowed to talk about it. I know, we

816
00:37:24,007 --> 00:37:26,167
Speaker 2: broke the taboos on Mid this week, and I have

817
00:37:26,207 --> 00:37:29,527
Speaker 2: a conversation with Helen Thorne, who's this comedian Ouzsie, comedian

818
00:37:29,567 --> 00:37:31,967
Speaker 2: who lives in London, and part of her stick is

819
00:37:31,967 --> 00:37:34,647
Speaker 2: that she and her comedy partner as old A, are

820
00:37:34,647 --> 00:37:38,527
Speaker 2: women since you know, thirties forties, worn these tight lamee

821
00:37:38,607 --> 00:37:42,567
Speaker 2: like catsuits on stage and they were both very like

822
00:37:42,767 --> 00:37:45,367
Speaker 2: ordinarily shaped. Let's just say, you know, like just not

823
00:37:45,567 --> 00:37:47,167
Speaker 2: supermodels and so.

824
00:37:47,287 --> 00:37:49,767
Speaker 3: Bit Celeste Barber. Yeah.

825
00:37:49,887 --> 00:37:51,687
Speaker 2: So the body confidence that it takes to do that

826
00:37:51,727 --> 00:37:53,807
Speaker 2: no matter what shape you are, is one thing. But then

827
00:37:54,247 --> 00:37:57,327
Speaker 2: Helen went through this massive sort of reckoning pre COVID

828
00:37:57,367 --> 00:37:59,247
Speaker 2: where she found out her spitald was cheating on her,

829
00:37:59,647 --> 00:38:02,247
Speaker 2: her marriage fell apart, she went into lockdown, she fell

830
00:38:02,247 --> 00:38:04,727
Speaker 2: into a debauch hole, as she tells lots of funny

831
00:38:04,727 --> 00:38:09,487
Speaker 2: stories about, and then she great rebuilt her relations with

832
00:38:09,527 --> 00:38:13,567
Speaker 2: her body. It's a really good, funny conversation. It's hilarious.

833
00:38:13,687 --> 00:38:16,367
Speaker 3: Yeah, such a good episode. Got I'm enjoying your conversations

834
00:38:16,407 --> 00:38:21,047
Speaker 3: on that show on No Filter this week. Oh I

835
00:38:21,127 --> 00:38:24,847
Speaker 3: had speaking of cheating, I had a fascinating conversation. And

836
00:38:24,847 --> 00:38:26,887
Speaker 3: I don't usually get to say I had an exclusive.

837
00:38:26,967 --> 00:38:28,967
Speaker 3: I didn't mean for it to be one. Sam and

838
00:38:29,047 --> 00:38:32,447
Speaker 3: Nia Rata were in that Ashley Madison documentary. They were

839
00:38:32,447 --> 00:38:36,207
Speaker 3: a couple who were very Christian. They were family like YouTubers,

840
00:38:36,647 --> 00:38:40,887
Speaker 3: and his name was leaked in the Ashley Madison data leak.

841
00:38:41,687 --> 00:38:43,527
Speaker 3: It came out that he had didn't actually have an

842
00:38:43,527 --> 00:38:46,527
Speaker 3: affair via Ashley Madison because all the women on that

843
00:38:46,527 --> 00:38:51,047
Speaker 3: website were actually Botts, but he had been unfaithful over

844
00:38:51,087 --> 00:38:53,287
Speaker 3: a really long period of time with lots of different

845
00:38:53,287 --> 00:38:55,887
Speaker 3: women in lots of different ways. Their story was told

846
00:38:55,887 --> 00:38:57,927
Speaker 3: a little bit in the documentary, but I was interested,

847
00:38:57,967 --> 00:39:01,287
Speaker 3: so we reached out and had an amazing interview. They

848
00:39:01,287 --> 00:39:04,007
Speaker 3: were in their bedroom, side by side. There was this

849
00:39:04,167 --> 00:39:07,047
Speaker 3: big thunderstorm in the background. We're going to be talking

850
00:39:07,047 --> 00:39:10,047
Speaker 3: about it more on Friday because there has been a

851
00:39:10,527 --> 00:39:12,807
Speaker 3: massive reaction to it in a way that I didn't expect.

852
00:39:13,047 --> 00:39:16,847
Speaker 3: People are furious, furious, furious, So we'll put a link

853
00:39:16,847 --> 00:39:19,007
Speaker 3: in the show notes to mid and to No Filter,

854
00:39:19,367 --> 00:39:21,447
Speaker 3: don't forget to listen on Friday when we'll be talking

855
00:39:21,487 --> 00:39:23,607
Speaker 3: about it more in depth. What about you, I, What

856
00:39:23,647 --> 00:39:25,007
Speaker 3: have you been doing this week?

857
00:39:25,287 --> 00:39:27,447
Speaker 4: One of my favorite topics next week was talking about

858
00:39:27,447 --> 00:39:30,407
Speaker 4: Sabrina Carpenter. She's just released a new song.

859
00:39:30,327 --> 00:39:32,887
Speaker 2: I Love It, Please Please Please, talking about.

860
00:39:32,607 --> 00:39:36,087
Speaker 4: The brilliance of her writing a song begging her boyfriend

861
00:39:36,127 --> 00:39:38,847
Speaker 4: not to embarrass her while casting her real life boyfriend

862
00:39:38,887 --> 00:39:41,887
Speaker 4: Barry Kiogan in the music video. We also talked about

863
00:39:41,887 --> 00:39:45,687
Speaker 4: Barry's history and men who leave their partners when they've

864
00:39:45,687 --> 00:39:46,487
Speaker 4: become really famous.

865
00:39:46,567 --> 00:39:49,407
Speaker 2: Yeah, just off him in a big way.

866
00:39:49,487 --> 00:39:51,047
Speaker 4: Yes, Oh, he was the rab boy with the Golden

867
00:39:51,047 --> 00:39:51,767
Speaker 4: Retriever rising.

868
00:39:53,807 --> 00:39:55,927
Speaker 2: A link to all of these episodes will be in

869
00:39:55,967 --> 00:39:58,687
Speaker 2: the show notes. That's it for today, out louders, thank

870
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Speaker 2: you for making it through Wednesday with you, and thank

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Speaker 2: you to our wonderful team for making this episode happen.

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Speaker 2: We'll be back in here it is tomorrow.

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Speaker 4: Bye Bye, Siya.

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Speaker 5: Shout out to any Mom and Maya subscribers listening. If

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Speaker 5: you love the show and want to support us as well,

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Speaker 5: subscribing to MoMA Miya is the very best way to

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Speaker 5: do so. There is a link in the episode description.

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Speaker 3: I was laughing during that last segment because it's like,

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Speaker 3: you think that a magazine is actually a coffee table book.

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Speaker 4: I think they're going to display it in their apartment

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Speaker 4: like a piece of armor, and then it just has pictures.

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Speaker 3: No, the way a magazine works is that there's pictures,

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Speaker 3: but also words climate change,