Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mum with mea podcast.
Speaker 2: Welcome to Biz in Box.
Speaker 1: I'm m Vernon.
Speaker 2: I'm a writer and podcaster here at Mama Mia, and
Speaker 2: I'm as passionate about my career as i am about
Speaker 2: logging off at four pm.
Speaker 3: And I'm Michelle Vatazi and I may run my own company,
Speaker 3: but I'm all about the clocking off at four pm.
Speaker 3: To be honest, if you're getting it done, then leave
Speaker 3: whenever you want.
Speaker 2: That's good to know, because I mean, you are sitting
Speaker 2: here with me instead of running your own.
Speaker 1: Coming exactly, I actually need to get out of here.
Speaker 2: I'll keep it quick, I'll keep it short and sweet.
Speaker 2: So every week we answer your burning career questions in
Speaker 2: like the simplest way possible. We're not going to sugarcoat it.
Speaker 2: We're going to give you straight answers that you need.
Speaker 3: And this week, I have a controversial opinion about something
Speaker 3: that's trending on TikTok.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I'm so excited, so am.
Speaker 3: I know you spend a lot lot of time dooms
Speaker 3: calling on TikTok.
Speaker 2: I do I get a lot of breakup advice videos.
Speaker 3: I need to hop over to your algorithm because mine
Speaker 3: is filled with work dilemmas.
Speaker 2: I need to hop over your algorithm.
Speaker 1: I actually shouldn't be on yours, so I'm engaged.
Speaker 4: Yes, I think yours would just be get more sad.
Speaker 4: I think yours would just be more entertaining than mine
Speaker 4: I wanted as well as that. I need to skip
Speaker 4: out of the educational feed, is what I'm saying. Anyway,
Speaker 4: I want to show you this video and I want
Speaker 4: to get your thoughts on it.
Speaker 5: The person that was hired is like my equal in
Speaker 5: my department, so we like co lead a department. He's
Speaker 5: getting paid twenty five thousand dollars more than me. Twenty
Speaker 5: five thousand dollars more than me. To be clear, we're
Speaker 5: both directors. We just lead two different branches of the department.
Speaker 5: We have the same level of experience, we have the
Speaker 5: same job like role clarity, like we're literally equal. We
Speaker 5: have one person who we report to, and she's getting
Speaker 5: paid twenty five thousand dollars more than me. Before her,
Speaker 5: her predecessor her left last August. She resigned from the
Speaker 5: role who were making the exact same salary. So when
Speaker 5: they rehired this person, he increased the salary to be
Speaker 5: more competitive because they were trying to fill it real
Speaker 5: quickly without even thinking about renegotiating the salary with me.
Speaker 5: So now we're both doing equal amounts of work, but
Speaker 5: she's getting paid twenty five thousand dollars more than me. Obviously,
Speaker 5: when I found this out, I went to our direct supervisor,
Speaker 5: who's also fairly new, and I was like, Hey, there's
Speaker 5: an equity here. What's the plan, Like, are we changing
Speaker 5: the organizational structure so that like we're not equally here,
Speaker 5: or are we equalizing our salary? What's the plan? And
Speaker 5: he's like, I do see you guys as equals. You
Speaker 5: play the same roles, you're two heads of the same department.
Speaker 5: But I'm not sure we're going to be able to
Speaker 5: get you there because twenty five k is a really
Speaker 5: big increase. I don't even know how process that. You're
Speaker 5: telling me. You want us to work at the same level,
Speaker 5: produce the same level of financial results, and I'm getting
Speaker 5: paid twenty five k less.
Speaker 2: Okay, what do you think I feel for this woman?
Speaker 2: I've been in the exact same position where I was
Speaker 2: doing the exact same job as someone like, we had
Speaker 2: the exact same title, we were doing the same amount
Speaker 2: of work and she was getting paid more than me.
Speaker 2: And the reason that pissed me off was because, and
Speaker 2: I know I can say this because I'm confident in it.
Speaker 2: I knew I was better at the job than she was,
Speaker 2: and it was one of those situations where people knew
Speaker 2: I was also better, so they were giving me more
Speaker 2: work to do, and still I never was able to
Speaker 2: match her pay. So I feel like it is a
Speaker 2: fair thing to call out, Like if you're doing the
Speaker 2: exact same job as someone and you're both doing the
Speaker 2: exact same things, but you just have to be confident
Speaker 2: that your work ethic is the same level as well.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think what you mentioned, like, I knew I
Speaker 3: was better than her. Yeah, how did you know you
Speaker 3: were better than her?
Speaker 2: Because I would always get all the new stuff and
Speaker 2: it felt like the company didn't really want her to
Speaker 2: add more stuff to a plate. We had this exact
Speaker 2: same plate.
Speaker 1: The scope of your role was wider.
Speaker 2: I started getting more things, and I started working with
Speaker 2: different teams, and I'd be the one the point person
Speaker 2: for our team where people would answer questions, and if someone.
Speaker 1: Was sick, I'd have to take over that.
Speaker 2: It was just like a lot of extra stuff that
Speaker 2: I was being asked to do that should have actually
Speaker 2: propelled me higher and being able to get a pay rise,
Speaker 2: but because my job description was so different to what
Speaker 2: I was actually doing, it was really hard to fight
Speaker 2: for that, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1: Did you ask for a pay rise? Yes? And how
Speaker 1: do you go about it? I didn't get it.
Speaker 2: I kind of in a bit probably hot headed, I
Speaker 2: would say, I was quite young as well, Like I
Speaker 2: was pretty young, Yeah, And I went in feeling just
Speaker 2: very upset and annoyed, and a lot of emotion came
Speaker 2: out in that.
Speaker 1: I just started crying.
Speaker 2: I remember just crying and being so sad. And it
Speaker 2: was just one of those situations where I think I
Speaker 2: got like a tiny pay increase, not as much as
Speaker 2: she was getting paid, and that pay increase just made
Speaker 2: me feel even.
Speaker 3: Worse, probably because of the circumstances and how it came about. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I think you make a lot of really valid points
Speaker 3: that are all one hundred percent worth considering in this situation.
Speaker 3: So your point about being a bit hot headed and emotional,
Speaker 3: I think that's kind of the first thing I noticed
Speaker 3: with this individual, Like when you hear someone is paid
Speaker 3: considerably more than you and you view yourselves as being
Speaker 3: at the same level. That can really hurt, and it
Speaker 3: does feel a bit personal, and it's then very hard
Speaker 3: to go into a pay rise conversation and not let
Speaker 3: those emotions take over. Easier said than done, But like,
Speaker 3: the only way you're going to pull off the pay
Speaker 3: rise is if you can park the emotion and try
Speaker 3: to get in the mind of your employer. That women
Speaker 3: said they're both directors and there's a twenty five thousand
Speaker 3: dollars pay discrepancy. That's a pretty standard salary band top
Speaker 3: and end if you're at a director level, So like
Speaker 3: she might actually be at the bottom of the director
Speaker 3: band and this other person might be at the top
Speaker 3: of the band. Like to have a difference in salary
Speaker 3: of twenty five grand a director lene, I feel is
Speaker 3: actually pretty standard.
Speaker 2: But the other person had just come into the business.
Speaker 2: So she would have also come in with different experience,
Speaker 2: maybe like more experience or a newer, fresher take for she.
Speaker 3: She also could have used her existing salary to negotiate
Speaker 3: a higher one to come in on. Like, it's much
Speaker 3: easier to get bigger salaries when you change companies than
Speaker 3: working your way up in the same company, which does suck,
Speaker 3: but that's kind of the easiest way to get a
Speaker 3: big pay rise.
Speaker 1: But I just felt like.
Speaker 3: In that TikTok, all I really heard her focusing on
Speaker 3: was that she'd found out someone in the same role
Speaker 3: as her was paid more, and that because she viewed
Speaker 3: those roles as being the same, the salary should be
Speaker 3: the same.
Speaker 1: She didn't once talk.
Speaker 3: About results or her output, like what she drives for
Speaker 3: the business. She just spoke about like the job description,
Speaker 3: like what's on paper and how many people they manage.
Speaker 3: I think if you're going to try and advocate for
Speaker 3: a pay rise after finding out someone else's paid more
Speaker 3: than you, it's actually a good thing to know that
Speaker 3: the company does have that money to pay you, but
Speaker 3: they're not just going to give it to you just
Speaker 3: because someone else walked in and got more. You need
Speaker 3: to show why you were also worth the same amount.
Speaker 3: So I would be having a conversation. Can you tell
Speaker 3: me how output is different, like what does she generate
Speaker 3: for the company that is different to what I generate
Speaker 3: and how can I get there?
Speaker 2: Coming up next, Michelle, I feel like we need to
Speaker 2: go back and perv into your DMS So, Mish, I
Speaker 2: was aggressively stalking your Instagram and you posted a question
Speaker 2: that I've been dying to ask you about because I
Speaker 2: need to know these answers. You asked your followers what
Speaker 2: companies have offered them instead of money? Yeah, and I
Speaker 2: need to know what answers you got.
Speaker 3: Yes, these responses were fascinating but also so good for
Speaker 3: us to put on blast because when you are in
Speaker 3: a performance review conversation or you're asking for a pay
Speaker 3: rise or whatever it is, you also can ask for
Speaker 3: non financial benefits. So it's so snoopy to see what
Speaker 3: people get. Okay, some tips I'm going to read out some.
Speaker 3: A lot of them were visa related, so like handling
Speaker 3: my wife's green card moved to the US. They paid
Speaker 3: for twelve months rent for me, Like what, that's wild?
Speaker 3: A lot of like lawyer fees for visas, daycare, and
Speaker 3: a gym unlimited paid time off.
Speaker 2: Would these be like under the table kind of offerings
Speaker 2: or will they all be like formal?
Speaker 1: I think a lot of them would be formal. Okay, yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: you're like this.
Speaker 3: Okay, this person said they pay for my therapy, paying
Speaker 3: for my divorce and gave me five grand to get
Speaker 3: my life going again.
Speaker 1: Oh they care? I need to write that down.
Speaker 2: Paying for therapy, yes, so wild.
Speaker 3: An exec education course at Harvard, and about thirty overseas
Speaker 3: trips thirty. You need to ask for this one, sorry, Maya.
Speaker 3: If you don't get this one already, you have to
Speaker 3: ask for this. Maybe I'll ask as well. I got
Speaker 3: a beauty budget of three hundred dollars a month since
Speaker 3: I had to film content for the brand Mea Friedman.
Speaker 1: If you're listening, this is our formal notice. I'm giving details.
Speaker 1: When my room burned down.
Speaker 3: My boss rallied the team for donations and matched theirs.
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of care and there's a lot
Speaker 1: of hard here, I think.
Speaker 2: And bringing it back to the last episode we did together,
Speaker 2: that should be the same system for gifting, like everyone
Speaker 2: put in money and then the CEO matches it.
Speaker 1: Yes, you know what. It should be a GoFundMe and
Speaker 1: it should just all be anonymous. Yes.
Speaker 3: Now it's getting a little bit spicy because as I'm scrolling,
Speaker 3: I'm realizing there's a lot of cocaine.
Speaker 1: Cocaine instead of giving them a pay rise, yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean a bit of partying.
Speaker 3: I guess it depends what fuels you like something I
Speaker 3: like fun, fun not intended.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, stop, I've just seen botox. That's a
Speaker 1: good moon. That could be part of the beauty budget.
Speaker 2: Yeah, probably not going to get You can add that
Speaker 2: to the three hundred Okay, this is coming up a
Speaker 2: lot egg freezing, IVF Wow, egg freezing and IVF fertility
Speaker 2: services to the.
Speaker 1: Value of one hundred grand.
Speaker 3: Oh as one person's there's a lot of rent, visa, fertility,
Speaker 3: nannies and trips.
Speaker 1: Then there's a couple that is cool. So if you're
Speaker 1: listening to this thinking, I don't get shit.
Speaker 2: So what's the benefit for like a company doing these
Speaker 2: things rather than just giving people a bonus.
Speaker 1: Well, here's the thing. Cocaine is not going to pay
Speaker 1: your rent. That's your true and neither really is a
Speaker 1: beauty budget.
Speaker 3: But it will help you know if you are spending
Speaker 3: money on those things that makes it feel good. I
Speaker 3: love the educational ones like courses, exec coaching, business reviews.
Speaker 3: So actually mentioned a quote in one of our other
Speaker 3: episodes which was that the best investment you can make
Speaker 3: is in yourself. So I do think if you're able
Speaker 3: to further your education or gain access to experiences that's
Speaker 3: also going to help you command more of a salary
Speaker 3: in your next role, or help you get a better
Speaker 3: job wherever you.
Speaker 1: Go next, or get the promotion.
Speaker 3: So I do think the educational ones are good ones
Speaker 3: to focus on educational and experiences like going overseas to
Speaker 3: work on different projects. But then I do think everyone
Speaker 3: is motivated by different things, Like I do like to
Speaker 3: ask my team what actually motivates you, because some people
Speaker 3: are more driven by money, other people are driven by travel,
Speaker 3: other people are driven by wanting to look.
Speaker 1: Good, parties, partying paths.
Speaker 3: So it's also just good from a managerial perspective to
Speaker 3: actually know who you're dealing with, because everyone's gonna, you know,
Speaker 3: appreciate different things, and some people might have been rolling
Speaker 3: their eyes at certain things I just read out, but
Speaker 3: that might actually really mean something to someone else. So
Speaker 3: I think it's just good to know that these sorts
Speaker 3: of things might actually be on the table for you.
Speaker 3: Don't explicitly ask for cocaine, I'll try, But I do
Speaker 3: think when you're talking about what the company can kind
Speaker 3: of do for you, it's good to explore education, travel,
Speaker 3: let your manager know what you're motivated by and see
Speaker 3: what comes back.
Speaker 2: Just keep it legal yeah, hashtag college not cocaine. Thank
Speaker 2: you so much for helping us clear the biz Inbox.
Speaker 2: If you've got a work question, please send it our way.
Speaker 2: You can find a link to submit your questions in
Speaker 2: our show notes. And if you missed it, Mish early
Speaker 2: this week, you and so spoke about one of my
Speaker 2: biggest work frustrations, getting people to actually listen to me
Speaker 2: when I speak.
Speaker 1: M It's going to change the way you email, so good.
Speaker 2: Head back into your feed to check that one out.
Speaker 2: We'll be back in the biz Inbox next week. Bye bye, Mamma.
Speaker 2: Maya icknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that
Speaker 2: this podcast is recorded on