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Speaker 1: We wanted to see if we could solve Australia's worst

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Speaker 1: unsolved crime, and.

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Speaker 2: The episode from two days ago and Lender's escape changes everything.

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Speaker 1: What we suspected is now coming true. We believe we've

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Speaker 1: found multiple new victims.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to the Sees the Yay Podcast. Busy and happy

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Speaker 3: are not the same thing. We too rarely question what

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Speaker 3: makes the heart seeing. We work, then we rest, but

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Speaker 3: rarely we play and often don't realize there's more than

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Speaker 3: one way. So this is the platforms to hear and

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Speaker 3: explore the stories of those who found lives they adore,

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Speaker 3: the good, bad and ugly, The best and worst day

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Speaker 3: will bear all the facets of seizing your Yay. I'm

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Speaker 3: Sarah Davidson or a spoonful of Sarah, a lawyer turned

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Speaker 3: funentrepreneur who swapped the suits and heels to co found

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Speaker 3: matcha Maiden and matcha Milk Bark. Ces Ya is a

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Speaker 3: series of conversations on finding a life you love and

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Speaker 3: exploring the self doubt, challenge, joy and fulfillment along the way.

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Speaker 3: Every now and then, we're lucky to record with a

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Speaker 3: guest at a pivotal moment in their life where a

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Speaker 3: chapter is unraveling in real time. So often we tell

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Speaker 3: the story backwards and with hindsight, but sometimes we catch

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Speaker 3: the magic of how they're feeling in the actual moment. Today,

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Speaker 3: we're lucky to have two of those guests just weeks

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Speaker 3: after the explosive launch of their investigative podcast, while the

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Speaker 3: project is not only in full swing but actually unraveling

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Speaker 3: new leads in a way that might change history. While

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Speaker 3: the subject matter of their work is historical in that

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Speaker 3: it involves cold cases, the nature of its impact is

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Speaker 3: extremely current and they're only just getting started. Andy Byrne

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Speaker 3: and Mark Lewellan are the incredible journalists behind Catching Evil,

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Speaker 3: revisiting the chilling crimes of Christopher Wilder, the so called

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Speaker 3: Beauty Queen Killer, across both Australia and the USA. In

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Speaker 3: just the first thirty days of the podcast, they have

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Speaker 3: amassed over one hundred thousand downloads with an unheard of

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Speaker 3: consumption rate of close to one hundred percent. But more importantly,

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Speaker 3: they've already uncovered new leads in one of Australia's worst

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Speaker 3: unsolved murders on Wanda Beach, as well as uncovering never

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Speaker 3: before heard evidence that may break the Wilder case wide open.

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Speaker 3: You may already know their names from their formidable media

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Speaker 3: careers prior to the podcast. Andy as an award winning

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Speaker 3: investigative journalist and producer with extensive experience in true crime,

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Speaker 3: and Mark as a highly decorated television executive, leading landmark

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Speaker 3: investigative in current affairs programming across Australian TV. And yet,

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Speaker 3: like most of our guests, neither of them ever thought

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Speaker 3: they'd end up with a podcast, that it would have

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Speaker 3: already changed so many lives, and that they may, in fact,

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Speaker 3: with an entire season still ahead, solve one of the

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Speaker 3: country's worst unsolved crimes. A quick content warning given the

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Speaker 3: nature of their investigation, this is obviously a bit of

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Speaker 3: a heavier episode than usual, covering serious themes, so please

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Speaker 3: do take care while listening, But it also demonstrates a

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Speaker 3: different form of fulfillment or yate to be gained from

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Speaker 3: a career path yay. As meaningful as this, the very

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Speaker 3: purpose of this show is always to remind you that

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Speaker 3: we all find our fulfillment or our purpose in very

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Speaker 3: different ways, and of course this isn't everyone's piece of cake,

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Speaker 3: but it is certainly one example of a way to

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Speaker 3: leave a great legacy and create some seriously positive impact

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Speaker 3: for a lot of people who have been affected by

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Speaker 3: this story. I feel so lucky to have sat down

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Speaker 3: with Mark and Andy after just six episodes so far,

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Speaker 3: to hear their reaction to launch the huge developments that

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Speaker 3: they already have in motion. It's been fascinating to hear

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Speaker 3: how an investigation like this unravels and the true impact

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Speaker 3: that investigative podcasts can have on criminal investigations and cold

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Speaker 3: cases that have remained unsolved for so many years. You

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Speaker 3: guys know this is a personal fascination for me, but

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Speaker 3: it takes just so much more than you could imagine

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Speaker 3: to bring an investigation to life. And I hope that

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Speaker 3: some of you also enjoyed this one as much as

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Speaker 3: I did. Andy and Mark, Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 1: Great to see it.

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Speaker 3: It is such an honor to have you two on particular,

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Speaker 3: because I have been listening to you hours and hours

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Speaker 3: of your two voices, and it's always surreal. I think

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Speaker 3: when you actually get to have a real time conversation,

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Speaker 3: you guys are like you've been in my ears for weeks.

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Speaker 1: Only what you expected whenever what people expect.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I did say when we first came on,

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Speaker 3: I was like, this is like a married couple.

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Speaker 1: We're all into the marriage, probably into the division of

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Speaker 1: property part of it. To be honest, we do like

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Speaker 1: each other look. To be honest, I think our friendship

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Speaker 1: has been a big part of why we've been able

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Speaker 1: to continue, because I don't think I could have done

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Speaker 1: this on my own, and I don't know whether Andy

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Speaker 1: could have as well. And it's like that mutual support.

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Speaker 1: When we were talking to you just prior of coming on,

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Speaker 1: you mentioned you gave us some really nice feedback, which

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Speaker 1: is cool, and we took it like we deserved it.

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Speaker 1: But it's freaking great. But when you're working alone for

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Speaker 1: eighteen months two years and all you've got is each

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Speaker 1: other in a medium that you're inexperienced in, even though

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Speaker 1: you've got a bit of experience doing other stuff, you

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Speaker 1: have to boy each other up. Nobody's up the whole time.

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Speaker 1: So on the days when I'm feeling okay, it might

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Speaker 1: be that I say no, no, we're on the right track,

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Speaker 1: or it could be the other way around with Andy,

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Speaker 1: But either way, it's pushed us both to where we are,

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Speaker 1: and I think that's sort of a testimony to our

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Speaker 1: friendship or the fact that we're so wedded together that

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Speaker 1: we can't find an escape. But either way it's worked.

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Speaker 3: It's just an interdependent relationship at this point where there's

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Speaker 3: no turning back.

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Speaker 1: Like a toxic relationship, you know.

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Speaker 2: It's I love that ups and down.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I mean this is very special because at

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Speaker 3: this moment there have been hundreds and thousands of Australians

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Speaker 3: who have been listening to your voices. As we're only

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Speaker 3: six episodes in at the moment into Catching Evil, but

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Speaker 3: you guys have had I mean one hundred thousand downloads

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Speaker 3: in the first thirty days, unheard of statistics that have

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Speaker 3: just blown up. Is the landscape and absolutely.

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Speaker 2: Everyone keeps telling us that, and we can't look at

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Speaker 2: my another and we can't quite believe it.

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Speaker 1: We no, we can't. We didn't know on day one

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Speaker 1: what the heck we'd get. Look, it wasn't a risk

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Speaker 1: in one sense. We always knew right from the top

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Speaker 1: when Andy played me some of the interviews that he'd

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Speaker 1: done over in America and he said, I might have

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Speaker 1: something here. One of the interviews is an episode about

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Speaker 1: to go to where very soon about a woman called

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Speaker 1: Linda who escapes Wilder in the most extraordinary circumstances, probably

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Speaker 1: the most courageous woman you'll ever meet, with a situation

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Speaker 1: where there are no good options, but she chooses the

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Speaker 1: best one. And Andy had interviewed her in America with

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Speaker 1: this mobile phone that he carried around and he records

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Speaker 1: this extraordinary interview, and that really, for me was the

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Speaker 1: beginning when he said, oh, I've got this amazing interview

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Speaker 1: stored on my phone that have never been played from

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Speaker 1: people who've never spoken. And we thought, well, we might

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Speaker 1: turn that into a podcast, you know, And then in

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Speaker 1: discussion with Andy, we thought, well, look, if we're going

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Speaker 1: to do it properly, we really should go over and

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Speaker 1: following the footsteps of Wilder. And then it just took

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Speaker 1: us into areas that we never expected. So to get

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Speaker 1: to this point where we're saying you got one hundred

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Speaker 1: thousand listeners, we came from a point where we had

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Speaker 1: just each other and had never tried this before. So

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Speaker 1: it's been you said before, sorry, and you said before,

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Speaker 1: no journeys linear. This is the perfect example, you know,

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Speaker 1: you know, we've taken a journey that's sort of like

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Speaker 1: branched out like a tree. Sorry, no, I was just

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Speaker 1: going to.

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Speaker 2: Say, and when Mark says we only had each other

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Speaker 2: for all that time, we're very much independent here in

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Speaker 2: terms of we funded this entire project ourselves. You know,

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Speaker 2: there's been no big network behind us. There's been no

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Speaker 2: you know, big marketing money or advertising when we've done

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Speaker 2: it ourselves. So if we have been a success, you know,

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Speaker 2: I take a lot of pride in them.

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Speaker 1: I think it's probably about fifty one forty nine percent

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Speaker 1: just in terms of the division of the success boils.

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Speaker 1: But people can.

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Speaker 3: Get which way it's splits.

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Speaker 1: Well.

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Speaker 3: Looking back at both of your incredible careers in media,

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Speaker 3: of course, it makes sense why you do make such

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Speaker 3: a powerful duo in covering this story and in fact

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Speaker 3: changing the course of history and doing so. And I

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Speaker 3: cannot wait to get more into that. There's so much

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Speaker 3: you've achieved in six episodes already, and I know there's

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Speaker 3: a lot more to dive into. But just quickly coming

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Speaker 3: back to that idea of no journey being linear, A

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Speaker 3: huge part of this show is that idea that it

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Speaker 3: can take a lot of chapters before you get to

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Speaker 3: the big successful one that people often know you for.

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Speaker 3: So for you two, a lot of people huge audiences

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Speaker 3: might be meeting you for the first time through this

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Speaker 3: story where you have such clear direction, You've got a

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Speaker 3: lot of resources, you've got great reputations, but not a

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Speaker 3: lot of airtime is given to the way that you

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Speaker 3: developed your careers, who you were when you were younger,

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Speaker 3: how many steps there have been along the way, And

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Speaker 3: I'm sure that there's been twists and turns you never expected.

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Speaker 3: Even when you started this story, I was reading that

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Speaker 3: you had no idea where it had end up, and

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Speaker 3: that it was originally planned to be just a retelling

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Speaker 3: of the story but ended up unearthing so many leads

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Speaker 3: that it's become a live investigation. So usually I'd spend

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Speaker 3: a lot more time on your earlier careers, but can

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Speaker 3: you just quickly touch on your younger selves and maybe

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Speaker 3: what you would say to any young aspiring journalists who

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Speaker 3: might be listening about making it in this industry and

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Speaker 3: how you get to this big story, what does it

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Speaker 3: take you to get there along the way.

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Speaker 1: We were both having a really interesting conversation about a

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Speaker 1: week ago. We went up to Hunter Valley, and we

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Speaker 1: went up primarily because a tip has come through via

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Speaker 1: this podcast that is really critical to placing Wilder on

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Speaker 1: wander Beach, and so that's the end part of the conversation.

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Speaker 1: But that night, having done an amazing interview with a

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Speaker 1: woman he approached three times and asked to go to

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Speaker 1: wander Beach who looks exactly like one of the victims

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Speaker 1: and has never told her story other than to the

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Speaker 1: police who ignored it at the time. That night we

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Speaker 1: sat down and had a bit of a chat about

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Speaker 1: where we are, and the one thing that we share

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Speaker 1: in common about this journey is as journalists. We started

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Speaker 1: because we love the game and we're hungry to be journalists.

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Speaker 1: We love journalism, and so that's the one linear part

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Speaker 1: of this. We never expected to end up doing this

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Speaker 1: and having the one hundred thousand downloads and your nice

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Speaker 1: comments and hopefully more to come. We never expected that.

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Speaker 1: But the one thing is we both have a passion

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Speaker 1: for journalism, telling storytelling, telling stories. My best advice is

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Speaker 1: bite off more than you can chew. I love that,

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Speaker 1: learn everything.

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Speaker 2: Over to and yeah, absolutely on the younger me, I

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Speaker 2: should have been a professional footballer.

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Speaker 3: I thought that you could see that, couldn't you from

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Speaker 3: a mile away? I thought, what a waste, what a

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Speaker 3: waste of talent.

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Speaker 1: You know, he was trialed by a major Premier League

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Speaker 1: club in the UK and he had a brilliant what

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Speaker 1: is your left Foot's a good one?

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 1: He wanted to plan on the right wing, but these

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Speaker 1: people recognized that and so stuck him on the left wing.

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Speaker 2: So it was the end of my career.

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Speaker 1: That was the end of a budding career. Only they'd

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Speaker 1: stuck him on the right wing. That's why he always

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Speaker 1: sits on the right. But I'll tell you this, he's

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Speaker 1: a brilliant journalist. He was in the papers in the

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Speaker 1: UK and came up through the trades. I was started

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Speaker 1: in radio and Australia and then ended up in TV

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Speaker 1: so and then we ended up together on television some

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Speaker 1: years back, where we became colleagues and friends. But although

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Speaker 1: the journalism paths is different, I think the same things

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Speaker 1: that sort of like get the juices go a similar

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Speaker 1: He's a great writer and a really good investigator, so

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Speaker 1: all of which is great for me.

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Speaker 2: Which of the relationship works, I mean we laugh all

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Speaker 2: the time about the Lennon and McCartney kind of thing,

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Speaker 2: and who's Lenan and who's McCartney.

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Speaker 1: Because he's from Liverpool, has to be the Beatles right stop.

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Speaker 3: So you were going to be an Everton star.

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Speaker 2: How did you know?

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Speaker 3: Well, it's Everton's loss and the media industry's gained that

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Speaker 3: your football career didn't work out. And just so you know,

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Speaker 3: we have skated over the detail here, but I will

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Speaker 3: have read out both of your stellar bios in the introduction.

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Speaker 3: But of course it is Catching Evil that has really

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Speaker 3: put your decades of investigative experience and journalistic skills at

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Speaker 3: work and is really keeping all of us holding our breath.

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Speaker 3: After the six episodes you've released so far, I feel

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Speaker 3: like most people who are listening to this show probably

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Speaker 3: have already binged them. But just in case, before we

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Speaker 3: dive into the behind the scenes of bringing the show

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Speaker 3: together and what it's like on the road, can you

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Speaker 3: give us an introduction to the case it investigates, but

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Speaker 3: also the incredible breakthroughs you have already unearthed.

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Speaker 1: The case is around. This begins with Christopher Wilder, who

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Speaker 1: was a race car driving, charismatic construction business owning serial killer.

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Speaker 1: Wilder had dual passports. He was an Australian mum American

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Speaker 1: father and so could slide between both countries. We believe

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Speaker 1: he is the person who committed Australia's worst unsolved double

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Speaker 1: murder on wander Beach, and then in nineteen eighty four

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Speaker 1: he goes on a rampage which is today still the

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Speaker 1: biggest FBI manhunt in American history and kills multiple women.

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Speaker 1: What we're looking at is everything from the original murder,

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Speaker 1: which we're going to prove to what happened in that

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Speaker 1: intervening twenty years to the rampage itself. And so we've

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Speaker 1: gone from wander Beach but certainly not finished it, and

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Speaker 1: we're now into the very beginning of the rampage, having

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Speaker 1: done the lead up to the disappearances of a woman

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Speaker 1: who was temporarily or briefly instead of way putting his

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Speaker 1: girlfriendinion and then the disappearance of another girl called Rosario

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Speaker 1: Gonzalez in Miami at the Grand Prix there in eighty four,

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Speaker 1: and after that he goes on the run. So where

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Speaker 1: we are now is that we're going to the point

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Speaker 1: just before he goes on the run where the police

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Speaker 1: are kind of like sitting on their hands despite the

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Speaker 1: desperate pleas and begging of the parents and loved ones

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Speaker 1: of two of the girls who've been taken to do something,

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Speaker 1: and in between times he's about to take some other girls.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And the episode from two days ago and Linda's

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Speaker 2: escape changes everything. Because Linda escapes, she's interviewed by the FBI,

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Speaker 2: she gives them incredible detail about him, picks Wilder out

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Speaker 2: of the lineup. Yeah, so finally there's no excuses. The

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Speaker 2: FBI can take over the case because he crossed state

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Speaker 2: lines with her, they can take it over. And it becomes,

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Speaker 2: as Mark says, the biggest man hunt in US history,

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Speaker 2: six and a half thousand miles, forty odd days and

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Speaker 2: they can't catch him. Fifteen hundred FBI agents chase him

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Speaker 2: from one side of the country out here there, then

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Speaker 2: all the way back again and they can't catch him.

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Speaker 1: That escape, though, changes everything.

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Speaker 3: And you have so kind of given us an exclusive

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Speaker 3: snippet and preview, So for anyone who wants a taser

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Speaker 3: and hasn't already caught up on that episode, I'll throw

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Speaker 3: to it now and you guys can have a listen.

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Speaker 1: I had heard that he had stopped me for two

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Speaker 1: days beforehand. What the fuck am I going to do? That?

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Speaker 1: He intercepted me in the parking lot as I'm walking

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Speaker 1: through my car and I realize.

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Speaker 2: Like, all shit, he's a big guy. He picks her

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Speaker 2: up in the sleeping bag and it's one, two, three, four, five,

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Speaker 2: six seven, and he's in.

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Speaker 1: He's in the room.

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Speaker 4: I could just see thee.

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Speaker 2: And then for the next few hours he tortures Linda.

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Speaker 1: He had tied me up to an electrical outlet in

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Speaker 1: both my pinkies and my toes, and he had superglued

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Speaker 1: my eyes shine.

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Speaker 2: All she's thinking about is survival, going to die, trying

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Speaker 2: where I'm going to get out of here.

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Speaker 3: Absolute goosebumps. And it's so crazy to think how many

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Speaker 3: times along the way of this investigation originally things weren't unearthed,

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Speaker 3: all questions weren't asked, and it's you, guys, off your

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Speaker 3: own back, going to revisit and reinvestigate that's actually making

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Speaker 3: headway in this decade's long investigation. But I think the

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Speaker 3: question that comes up so much now that there are

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Speaker 3: so many true crime investigations and that podcasting has become

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Speaker 3: such an important tool, when do you know you have

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Speaker 3: a podcast worthy story? And I know for you guys,

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Speaker 3: it was brewing for eight years, you had written on

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Speaker 3: the subject before. When do you reach this critical point?

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Speaker 3: Of we're going to make a show, especially having never

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Speaker 3: done it before. And then once you do decide that,

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Speaker 3: how do you even know how to structure the episodes?

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Speaker 3: And you were on the road in the US. Are

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Speaker 3: you doing your interviews and putting them straight into into

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Speaker 3: the show? Is there a lead time like this? The

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Speaker 3: episodes are so dense as well, between interviews and your commentary.

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Speaker 3: How do you bring a show like Catching Evil together?

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Speaker 2: Let Mark take the second half, because how it's how

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Speaker 2: it's made and how it's pulled together. I call him

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Speaker 2: mister Jigsaw Man because there's a every week he's presented with,

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Speaker 2: you know, a thousand piece jigsaw and he's got, like,

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Speaker 2: you know, a couple of days to pull it all together,

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Speaker 2: and there's no one better at it.

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Speaker 1: He's brilliant. Adic Yeah, like Dustin Hoffman and Rayin Men.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we were both in on it from from the

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Speaker 2: from the beginning. So eight years ago, we were launching

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Speaker 2: a new crime show for Channel seven, Channel seven, and

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Speaker 2: I was pulling together potential stories and one of them

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Speaker 2: was kristenpher Wilder and I thought, that's a good story,

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Speaker 2: but it's America. Are we really that interested? And then

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Speaker 2: I discovered that he grew up with his family literally

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Speaker 2: around the corner from where I was living and raising

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Speaker 2: my kids, and I became fascinated in how you know

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Speaker 2: that particular suburb could have produced a monster like him.

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Speaker 2: Mark said, yeah, let's do the story. I went to America,

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Speaker 2: and I was a bit naughty. I used the trip

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Speaker 2: and we made a documentary on Wilder, but that was

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Speaker 2: very much centered on him, as was the book I

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Speaker 2: then wrote, which was really centered on him, very traditional

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Speaker 2: the way that most true crime is done. It's the

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Speaker 2: perpetrator who gets all the focus, particularly when it's someone

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Speaker 2: as colorful as Wilder. But then returning and thinking about

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Speaker 2: the book afterwards, and long after it had come out,

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Speaker 2: I was still in contact with a lot of the

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Speaker 2: families who'd lost someone, who lost girls, and it became

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Speaker 2: apparent to me that they were lost and their daughters

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Speaker 2: and their sisters and their fiances had all been kind

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Speaker 2: of forgotten. They were just a newspaper clipping, you know,

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Speaker 2: their stories had never been spoken. So that's when Mark

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Speaker 2: and I had the idea of going back to America

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Speaker 2: and following in wild As footsteps. But he's not the focus.

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Speaker 2: The focus are those girls and giving them a voice.

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Speaker 1: The first conversation we had back in the time when

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Speaker 1: we were doing the documentary, we had a kind of

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Speaker 1: bold idea. We wanted to see if we could solve

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Speaker 1: Australia's worst unsolved crime. You set a little bar too high,

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Speaker 1: and that's how it came about. But then that journey

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Speaker 1: took Andy to do the preliminary interviews, some which he

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Speaker 1: recorded later for a book. And when we had that

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Speaker 1: subsequent conversation he's played me some of the audio. It

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Speaker 1: just thought, oh well, we could usefully do a podcast

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Speaker 1: and feel some about time. And then it really really grew,

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Speaker 1: which is quite like an acorn being planted and growing

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Speaker 1: to a big a big tree. But AND's Andy's right,

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Speaker 1: And even on the road, Look, this is one of

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Speaker 1: the extraordinary things. It's not unusual for journalists to find

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Speaker 1: stories that you didn't expect out of the mouths of

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Speaker 1: people you didn't expect to talk to. But I'll give

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Speaker 1: an example of why this kind of excited us so much.

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Speaker 1: We're on the road, and also one from last week

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Speaker 1: as well, but on the road, with an episode that's

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Speaker 1: about to come up, we met a woman called Mindy.

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Speaker 1: Mendy's mother was taken and killed by Wilder when he

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Speaker 1: just launched his escapade across the States, and she was

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Speaker 1: taken just outside Houston in a town called Beaumont. Mendy

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Speaker 1: was four and a half at the time, and she'd

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Speaker 1: never heard her mother speak for forty years, and she

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Speaker 1: had a cassette tape. And so along the way while

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Speaker 1: we're driving out in the head of a ninety five

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Speaker 1: degree fahrenheit day in Texas, and he rings up somebody

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Speaker 1: via EBA, gets a cassette player, and we play that

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Speaker 1: cassette tape with her mum's voice for the very first

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Speaker 1: time in forty years, and stead of get this hugely

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Speaker 1: emotional reaction, and it sort of tells a lot about

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Speaker 1: her affection and love for a mum and what the

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Speaker 1: generational impact is of people like Wilder when they do

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Speaker 1: these things. But then at the conclusion of the interview,

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Speaker 1: because we were late, we'd basically come in said today,

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Speaker 1: set up the podcast and started talking to Mindy and

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Speaker 1: set a load to her partner who was standing in

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Speaker 1: the corner. He was a really nice guy, but never

402
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Speaker 1: really met him. At the conclusion of the interview, I

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Speaker 1: say he's standing in the corner, I so how do

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Speaker 1: you think Mindy meant? And he goes, I love her

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Speaker 1: so much. You know, we're two sides of the same coin. Go,

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Speaker 1: what do you mean? While her mummy was killed by

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Speaker 1: a bad man and my daddy's a murderer. And then

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Speaker 1: the truth about how they met. His father had killed

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Speaker 1: his best friend, and they all knew each other in

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Speaker 1: the same circles, and so they shared this kind of

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Speaker 1: strange but very strong bond of having their lives completely

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Speaker 1: ripped apart by an horrendous and terrible act and had

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Speaker 1: fallen in love. And now we're each other's not only partners,

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Speaker 1: but support. Now that came out of nowhere, and that's

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Speaker 1: the beauty of this podcast. It becomes a very signific

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Speaker 1: part of this episode that's upcoming. But I'll tell you

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Speaker 1: another example, which is sorry to bang on, but he

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Speaker 1: had a long crack before good at banging on. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but Andy, through this podcast, there is a person who's

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Speaker 1: critical in the Wilder story because he helped the FBI

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Speaker 1: track him when he's on the run. He was a

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Speaker 1: man who a forensic sort of accountant who was able

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Speaker 1: to follow his visa, not his visa, the fake visa

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Speaker 1: that he was using all the wrong visa that he

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Speaker 1: was using across the states, and it was critical at

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Speaker 1: the very last moment in getting the police to get

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Speaker 1: to him. And so his role and he came out

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Speaker 1: of the blue because of the podcast, and he approached

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Speaker 1: and we did a phone interview the other day. During

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Speaker 1: the course of this interview, I asked him how he

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Speaker 1: felt when Wilder was killed, and he said, I felt great,

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Speaker 1: felt really good. And you know, it's not the first

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Speaker 1: serial killer I've had contact with. We both look at

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Speaker 1: each other and what many says? Who was the other

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Speaker 1: serial killer? And he goes, well, you know X years

436
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:08,080
Speaker 1: before I was in a bar with my girlfriend. I

437
00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:11,440
Speaker 1: was distracted and there was a man trying to look

438
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:13,840
Speaker 1: at her and pick her up. And that man was

439
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:18,520
Speaker 1: Ted Bundy. And we're going what And that man was

440
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:24,840
Speaker 1: making a beeline to his girlfriend and clearly with evil intent. Subsequently,

441
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:26,920
Speaker 1: in the next twenty four to forty eight hours, two

442
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:30,280
Speaker 1: people from that same town, two girls, were taken and

443
00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,399
Speaker 1: killed by Bundy. So they had a narrow miss. He

444
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:35,720
Speaker 1: knew both of them, Yeah, he knew both of the victims.

445
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,480
Speaker 1: And then subsequently, in this conversation, and we didn't we

446
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:44,960
Speaker 1: didn't didn't know about this attends Bundy's execution. So that's

447
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:49,199
Speaker 1: kind of like the power of this podcast, the unexpected power.

448
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,720
Speaker 1: It's taking us places that we never expected to go.

449
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,960
Speaker 3: The momentum that you must get from being on the

450
00:23:56,040 --> 00:24:00,520
Speaker 3: ground and following it leeds as they're coming. But from

451
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:05,320
Speaker 3: a logistical perspective, especially because this isn't really a career

452
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:08,200
Speaker 3: path that has existed for very long, true crime podcast

453
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:12,720
Speaker 3: investigative podcaster is such a new thing. No one really understands,

454
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:16,199
Speaker 3: Like do you buy your own flights, land on the

455
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 3: ground and then just call people and start recording? Like

456
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:23,000
Speaker 3: how do you even outside of their structure of an

457
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:26,040
Speaker 3: organization like the FBI or like the police. Are you

458
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 3: literally just going he was here, I'm going to fly

459
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,040
Speaker 3: there and see what happens? Is that literally how the

460
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:32,359
Speaker 3: investigation starts?

461
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 2: Almost? I mean there is a tremendous amount of research

462
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,639
Speaker 2: and work that goes into you know, before you step

463
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,320
Speaker 2: on that plane, so you know where you're going, you

464
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 2: know who you're after. Yeah, but you've always got a

465
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,160
Speaker 2: remaining flexible too as to who you'll meet along the way.

466
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,720
Speaker 2: And both Mark and I are very experienced, you know,

467
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,240
Speaker 2: we've done it for years, and we kind of leave

468
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,120
Speaker 2: time and we've got an idea that there is this

469
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 2: person out there and we'll find them when we get there.

470
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 2: You know, a lot of it is set up beforehand.

471
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,560
Speaker 2: I mean that Mindy story was remarkable for a number

472
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:08,880
Speaker 2: of reasons. Mindy's life had been awful up to that point.

473
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,200
Speaker 2: She'd made decisions in her life things like she never

474
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 2: went to college, she never went to university. Why because

475
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 2: their mum has abducted from the university campus, and so

476
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 2: she never wanted to go near that building. And she

477
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:24,440
Speaker 2: looks back now now that she's with Kyle and she's

478
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 2: with I mean, who better to understand what she's going

479
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,040
Speaker 2: through from someone who's gone through exactly the same thing.

480
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 2: But she said to us that, you know, if that

481
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,320
Speaker 2: would have happened earlier in her life and her life,

482
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 2: she'd been a very different place now, she would have

483
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:39,639
Speaker 2: got a self a better education, got her self a

484
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:42,439
Speaker 2: better job. You know. So when Mark talks about the

485
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:46,199
Speaker 2: generational impacts of some of these crimes, we've witnessed and

486
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,439
Speaker 2: seen them firsthand, you know, And it's quite remarkable.

487
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,959
Speaker 1: In fact, people ask us about approaching people like Mindy.

488
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,400
Speaker 1: They're almost concerned that we'd do so, but we think

489
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:01,919
Speaker 1: of it differently from experience, and every person that we

490
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,640
Speaker 1: speak to is relieved that they're finally getting the opportunity

491
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,120
Speaker 1: to talk. It's the most significant event in their life,

492
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 1: and somehow people just avoid it. And even worse for

493
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 1: so Mindy's mom, she was in the headlines for a

494
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 1: day before he moved on and killed another girl, and

495
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,680
Speaker 1: then moved on and killed another girl. So they've forgotten

496
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 1: apart from the people whose lives are being blown up

497
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 1: by this event, and to be able to speak with

498
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 1: love about somebody they adore or miss, and also to

499
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 1: talk about you know why. They all ask the question

500
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 1: why why my mom? Why did he take them? All

501
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 1: of them, without exception, have become true crime adherents. They

502
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,919
Speaker 1: really really get into it. They watch every documentary they

503
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 1: try and to get into the mind of wilder and

504
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:49,479
Speaker 1: serial killers. They're really desperate, thirsting for knowledge, but they

505
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,679
Speaker 1: also want recognition, recognition of their story, recognition of the

506
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,879
Speaker 1: importance of the mum or their sister, or their daughter

507
00:26:56,000 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 1: or their loved one. And you know, it's been quite rumbling,

508
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 1: I would say, to be witnessed to that in a

509
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 1: participant in some way and allowing that to unfold. And

510
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 1: also they're really they're good too, because they're offering an

511
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,639
Speaker 1: insight into how women in particular might be able to

512
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,639
Speaker 1: protect themselves or how authorities need to do better at

513
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 1: which they do, you know, and so they offer these

514
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 1: really important insights and that's been fascinating too, as well

515
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 1: as sort of like them leading in the direction of

516
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:30,479
Speaker 1: bigger solutions to unsolved answers that have remained unsolved for

517
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,440
Speaker 1: forty years, so you know, it's in the case of

518
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 1: Wonder for sixty years. So it's been a cracking thing

519
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:41,640
Speaker 1: to do. And by liberating in the podcast space, which

520
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 1: is different to anything we've done before.

521
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 3: I think that's one of the most beautiful things about

522
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,440
Speaker 3: the show is that, particularly given it's not even the

523
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:50,920
Speaker 3: first time that you have told this story before, it's

524
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,399
Speaker 3: been told by you guys in different formats before, but

525
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 3: that this is victim centric and that's so beautiful because

526
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 3: you can hear the Catharsis in their voices to be

527
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:03,880
Speaker 3: able to tell their story in a way that it's

528
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:07,719
Speaker 3: not been listened to, particularly from this perspective, it's not

529
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 3: been you know, they haven't been allowed to feel close

530
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 3: to that person in such a long time in the

531
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,200
Speaker 3: way that you have allowed them to do, which is beautiful,

532
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 3: but it's also revealing leads to you all the time.

533
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 3: So can you talk to us about in the background,

534
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,399
Speaker 3: like what is the sort of overlay of your week?

535
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 3: Are you on it full time? How much is research?

536
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,440
Speaker 3: And then once you've done the interviews, how much is

537
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,639
Speaker 3: working out the structure of an episode. What's the turnaround

538
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,160
Speaker 3: time for you to release something when you've broken a lead,

539
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 3: like the week before, you know, like, tell us about

540
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 3: how it actually comes together.

541
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 2: At the moment, we're in our home office and that

542
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 2: sounds pretty grand, but I've got to tell you, for

543
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 2: a show that's called Catching Evil, our office is a

544
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 2: timely little office in a church. So are we Well,

545
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 2: it's it's pretty fraught, we said. Opposite one. Mark is

546
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 2: furiously editing and the profanities because we can't work the

547
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 2: system that we used.

548
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 1: Meanwhile, I'm on the other side.

549
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 2: Frantically trying to call America and talk to people and

550
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 2: message cops and this kind of thing. Because to finish

551
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 2: this series, we have to return to America next month

552
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 2: to do some absolutely critical interviews.

553
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: What we suspected early on in our first trip, particularly

554
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 1: from Andy's investigations, is that while there's no way that

555
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 1: Wilder sort of did wander Beach sixty five and then

556
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 1: went on this extraordinary rampage in eighty four, that for

557
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty years that he was just calling his heels

558
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 1: going yeah, I won't kill for twenty years. Absolutely way,

559
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 1: what we suspected is now coming true. We believe we

560
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 1: found not only multiple new victims, some of whom still

561
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 1: lie as Jane does in Morgues, but we found two

562
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 1: new killing zones. One is in New York State in America,

563
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 1: where he was seen and acted well before that eighty

564
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 1: four to three, and the other is in northern New

565
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 1: South Wales, where we've had a really significant lead, where

566
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 1: we leave half a dozen maybe more young women were

567
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 1: taken by Wilder and killed. So these are all big deals.

568
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 1: The problem is with the authorities. In eighty four they

569
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 1: basically shut up shop. They said, well, that's it, he's dead,

570
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 1: don't investigate. So there's all these unsolved crimes and all

571
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 1: these families still wanting to know what happened to their daughters,

572
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 1: and the same in New South Wales. Is all these

573
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 1: unsolved crimes. What the authorities have done next to nothing.

574
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 1: So he basically put a full stop on what is

575
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 1: still a continuing story. And if we go to the States,

576
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 1: we've now got not only significant leads, but it looks

577
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 1: like we're going to meet up with a couple of

578
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 1: police forces who are really interested in what we've discovered,

579
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 1: and that gives us the confidence to sort of like

580
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 1: go there and state the case that we believe that

581
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 1: he is. To be honest, he's up there now with

582
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 1: Ted Bundy in kind of numbers and the way you

583
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 1: operate it.

584
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 2: There's two unsolved homicide units in New York State, separate

585
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 2: police departments who are desperate for us to go there

586
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 2: and sit down with them. They suspect that Wilder is

587
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 2: the killer in two cases that they have, and they

588
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 2: believe with what we've been able to tell them that

589
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 2: we have the critical information that will allow them to

590
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 2: close the case and that would bring enormous comfort to

591
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 2: the surviving relatives.

592
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 3: You know, it's just extraordinary how podcasting has become this

593
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 3: invaluable tool.

594
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's amazing.

595
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, leveraging the ability of the public attention to create

596
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 3: leads that just weren't there in cases before that could

597
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 3: could solve, genuinely solve cases that have been open for decades.

598
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 3: For you, guys, how many episodes from now do you

599
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 3: know what the premise of them is going to be?

600
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 3: Versus like, you have no idea how the season's going

601
00:31:58,600 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 3: to finish right now?

602
00:31:59,320 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 1: Do you?

603
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 3: How many ahead are you right now that you know

604
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 3: they out of Well that's.

605
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 2: A trade secret and a bit scary, actually, Chicken, we

606
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 2: can't tell you all wear a little bit ahead.

607
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 1: But because because things are changing, for instance, the new information,

608
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 1: we're tossing up whether we should do a new Wonder

609
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 1: episode maybe within the next couple of weeks because it's

610
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 1: so significant and that's where we started, which would mean

611
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 1: probably throwing out our schedule and tossing things aside. I

612
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 1: just need to make one aside. If you hear therahaka

613
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 1: coming through, it's because it's beautiful. Well, that's it. We

614
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 1: happen to hear it maybe one hundred times every two

615
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 1: weeks from the French class behind.

616
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 2: It, French classes behind us.

617
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 3: I love it.

618
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 4: We don't love it as much as you do. Yeah,

619
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 4: wondering whether you're introduced to a podcast, But if you

620
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 4: hear it like a hundred times over. This is the

621
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 4: kind of thing that trades, you know, in terms of

622
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 4: how far ahead.

623
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 1: We have an idea maybe for the next six or

624
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 1: seven episodes, but things aren't changing. And that is, as

625
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 1: you say, the sort of like the beauty of the

626
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 1: podcast is that we have, if we have the discipline,

627
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 1: we have the ability to go and really really do

628
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 1: some stuff that we didn't anticipate, and that is very important,

629
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 1: and we'll change lives and probably will change history in

630
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:26,479
Speaker 1: terms of this case and this person, these families and

631
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 1: what we know about everything.

632
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 2: See, what we've just discovered is that Wilder hadn't thought

633
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 2: I hadn't thought about this before. But it now seems

634
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 2: that Wilder, when he was going on his rampage, everyone's

635
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 2: just assumed that he was maybe heading for the Mexican border,

636
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 2: or he was heading for the Canadian board.

637
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 1: Yea, it was all a bit Brando, it's all a

638
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 1: bit random.

639
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 2: But the path that he followed takes him very close

640
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 2: and actually into a number of towns where Bundy had victims.

641
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 2: So there's almost this on the current of he was

642
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 2: trying to emulate Bundy. He was trying to, you know,

643
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 2: get his kill counter to Bundy levels. And so we're

644
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 2: now going backwards again to look at some of those

645
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:08,320
Speaker 2: early victims to see if there's another Bundy connection.

646
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, we think that he may have either saw him

647
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 1: as a competitor or somebody to emulate. But either way,

648
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 1: we know that of a few murders, that's interesting. And

649
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 1: so yet another person that we interviewed about a month

650
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,279
Speaker 1: or so ago who said, oh, yeah, yeah, this friend

651
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 1: of mine was taken. It's funny because Ted Bundy visited

652
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:30,799
Speaker 1: this talent and did exactly the same thing. And so

653
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:34,279
Speaker 1: we think, wow, there may be a connection. So you know,

654
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:36,359
Speaker 1: it's another thing. It's also in America. There's one other

655
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,880
Speaker 1: thing that's really always been on our mind. It's hard

656
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 1: to get, but it's very important. Before he died a

657
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 1: year before he went on his rampage, a bit more

658
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,920
Speaker 1: than a year, wasn't it, Wila went made a confession

659
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 1: one drunken night and he didn't drink much often to

660
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:57,360
Speaker 1: amember Heavy's racecoa team that he had in fact previously

661
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:01,799
Speaker 1: killed eleven women. Wh extraordinary and it's contained it's a

662
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 1: line contained in some FBI notes that Andy came into

663
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 1: the possession of Yeah.

664
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:10,399
Speaker 2: We've interviewed the FBI agent who led the manhunt who

665
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 2: became aware of this, but not too much work was

666
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 2: put into it again once Wilder had been killed. But

667
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 2: this confession was you know, a couple of years before

668
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 2: the rampage, so it predates all those women, and we

669
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 2: know there are about twelve victims there. So if this

670
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 2: confession was accurate, you know, if it's genuine, that then

671
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 2: puts him well over twenty victims.

672
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 1: Oh, can I give the bit of the break that

673
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 1: we should. You know that the headline we have failed

674
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 1: to drop. The person who confessed to currently sits in

675
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 1: San Quentin on death right also another person who committed

676
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 1: a violent murder after Wilder's rampage, which kind of makes sense.

677
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:51,880
Speaker 1: I mean, who else are you going to confess to

678
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 1: other than somebody you share similar passions and hobbies with

679
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,879
Speaker 1: I a murder. So we've andy it's been to use

680
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:04,279
Speaker 1: their new expression reaching out to see whether we can

681
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:08,800
Speaker 1: get an interview with on death row because he holds

682
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,319
Speaker 1: a critical secret to all of this. And one other

683
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 1: thing we found in the research when we went to

684
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 1: the States is that they shared he had to for

685
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 1: his submission to prior to the sentencing have a psychological profile,

686
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 1: and the psychologist's records are available publicly. In fact, one

687
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 1: of the DA's on the case was Kamala Harris. But

688
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:33,400
Speaker 1: the psychological profile reveals this guy I had a fascination

689
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:39,400
Speaker 1: for white slavery and holding girls captive and a whole

690
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 1: lot of things that Wilder also had a similar fascination.

691
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 1: So you know, he has just draw these extraordinary links.

692
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,920
Speaker 1: So here's a guy who while confessed to killing eleven

693
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 1: women that nobody has ever investigated.

694
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,880
Speaker 3: That's crazy. One of the things I find so interesting,

695
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 3: particularly because the premise of this show is sees the

696
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 3: ya so finding your joy, but your purpose, but your

697
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 3: north star, whatever that may be. And often the conversation

698
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 3: is focused on joy, but sometimes there are subject matters

699
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:20,240
Speaker 3: in humanity that are obviously heavy and unfathomable and evil,

700
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 3: so to speak. And you guys are constantly now surrounded

701
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 3: by the worst of humanity and words like murder, and

702
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 3: you know, we're quite desensitized to it because we watch

703
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,360
Speaker 3: it in Hollywood. We listened to a crime podcast, whereas

704
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 3: you guys are actually breaking stories and sitting down with

705
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:41,400
Speaker 3: people who who are real humans whose lives have truly

706
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:44,880
Speaker 3: been touched by this stuff. So I just want to

707
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:47,920
Speaker 3: ask a little bit about the emotional side of Obviously

708
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 3: you're not sitting there feeling joy every day about what

709
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 3: you're doing, but I think it's a source of fulfillment.

710
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 3: Perhaps that is you are making a difference in humanity.

711
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 3: You are truly doing something that is going to change

712
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 3: history for the better. But are you also facing fear?

713
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 3: Do you get the chills when there's a break in

714
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 3: the case, Like, what is the feeling around what you're doing?

715
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:14,920
Speaker 3: How are you feeling when you're like, talk to me

716
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 3: maybe about a chilling moment where you've realized, shit, we

717
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:21,920
Speaker 3: are onto something, Like what does that feel like?

718
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 1: Oh? Okay, well onto something. I'll talk to you about

719
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,280
Speaker 1: a chilling moment. There was a moment where we met

720
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 1: a woman called Francis Ferguson and her daughter was taken

721
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 1: by Wilder and probably because she wanted to be she

722
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 1: was insecure, according to a mum, wanted to be a model,

723
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 1: fell for his pattern and then was taken and killed

724
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:46,439
Speaker 1: after visiting a mall. And her daughter looked very much

725
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:50,320
Speaker 1: like Jennifer Bills from the movie Flashdands, and so during

726
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 1: the course of the interview, mum says that, and then

727
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 1: both of us look at each other because Jennifer Bills

728
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 1: was one of the movie actresses that was obsessed with,

729
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 1: like I'm literally obsessed with and Flashdance was, you know,

730
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 1: a movie he knew and loved. So clearly that is now,

731
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:11,839
Speaker 1: as we said to the mum who had heard this,

732
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,279
Speaker 1: only this was the first time she had heard this.

733
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 1: It gave some clarity to her by why her daughter

734
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 1: was picked because he saw his type, that's who he

735
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 1: went after. But that moment was chilling because we both

736
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 1: remember looking at Andy and you know, we both recognized it.

737
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:32,319
Speaker 1: But in that same interview, Francis, who was sharp as

738
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:34,759
Speaker 1: a whip in her eighties but just you know, all

739
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 1: her marbles has come out the other side, believes very

740
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:40,800
Speaker 1: much in reincarnation that she will be with her daughter

741
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 1: again sometime in the future. As to a lot of

742
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:47,400
Speaker 1: the people we spoke to, sort of reincarnation and people

743
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:50,839
Speaker 1: from past lives, visiting became a huge and again unexpected

744
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 1: part of it. But here's the bit. So we are

745
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 1: dealing with this very heavy subject. We have found out

746
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 1: this information and then at the end, I ask, you know,

747
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 1: it's been a heavy interview, but she's a lovely person.

748
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 1: I ask her, you know, do you think you'll be

749
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 1: reunited with your daughter? And she goes, does the Pope

750
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 1: were a beanie? That's her humanity? And we found it

751
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 1: in every single person we spoke to that even in

752
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 1: all this gloom and this evil, the sort of light

753
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 1: still shines, the love still shines for the people that

754
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,839
Speaker 1: they care and love, and so that's kind of kept us,

755
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 1: you know, from being absolutely too mortal and too gloomy,

756
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 1: because they're brilliant people. To meet them and talk to

757
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:36,719
Speaker 1: them and have them in their houses and is you know,

758
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 1: really good.

759
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:40,719
Speaker 2: Yeah. You talked as well about the emotional impact and

760
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 2: that's where actually sometimes it does bring joy. Because the

761
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:48,360
Speaker 2: episode that's coming up next week on Linda, this is

762
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 2: the ninety y years old who was abducted violently in

763
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 2: a shopping mall car park after turning down his you know,

764
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:58,760
Speaker 2: offer to photograph her several times, driven across a state

765
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:02,279
Speaker 2: line into a romie motel where for the next ten

766
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:07,800
Speaker 2: hours she was tortured, electrocuted, sexually assaulted. The most incredible

767
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 2: escape you will ever hear recounted. Then she does escape,

768
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 2: she gets to hospital, and she then describes everybody treated

769
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 2: her with kid gloved. She said, no one you know,

770
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 2: could look her in the eye, but they were all

771
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,239
Speaker 2: furtively looking at her and talking about her. And even

772
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 2: her friends from college who came to be with her

773
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 2: were kind of the same. The only thing that saved

774
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 2: her and she credits this with saving the rest of

775
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:40,919
Speaker 2: her life basically in terms of having a successful life

776
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 2: after something like this was there was a nurse. There

777
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 2: was a nurse called Glenda Linda, and Glenda said to

778
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,080
Speaker 2: watch some of this in the room and then said

779
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:51,839
Speaker 2: to her friends, you come outside with me. She took

780
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 2: the friends outside and she said, book yourselves up, go

781
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 2: back in there and just listen to her. And Linda

782
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 2: says that was the best advice you can give. You

783
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:03,719
Speaker 2: have to talk about these things and you just need

784
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:06,279
Speaker 2: someone to listen to you. And Mark and I have

785
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:08,600
Speaker 2: met an awful lot of families. In fact, there's another

786
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:12,360
Speaker 2: episode coming off. Two brothers, Oh yeah, two big strong

787
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:17,279
Speaker 2: American military for thirty years each career guys, and their

788
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:20,880
Speaker 2: parents banned them from ever mentioning their daughter's name because

789
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:23,319
Speaker 2: they thought that was the best way of coping with you. Yeah,

790
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 2: forty years later, on the eve of the interview with them,

791
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:30,239
Speaker 2: the brother says to me, I'm glad we're doing this.

792
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 2: We haven't had a conversation about our sister for forty.

793
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:35,440
Speaker 1: Years, even amongst themselves.

794
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:38,280
Speaker 3: Can you imagine, Yeah, it makes you want a cry.

795
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 2: So I think that I'm hoping people will take we'll

796
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:44,799
Speaker 2: hear this and take something good from it, and if

797
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:46,560
Speaker 2: they do, that's going to bring me joly.

798
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:49,319
Speaker 1: Linda's observation was kind of interesting. She said, this is

799
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 1: part of my life. Tell them remember it. I just

800
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 1: was listening to it last night, to be honest, And

801
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:56,879
Speaker 1: she says, if a date triggers me, like the date

802
00:42:56,920 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 1: he took me, or a smell, because smells just stay

803
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 1: with you for the rest of the life, or you know,

804
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 1: just how somebody looks it might be somebody who looks

805
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 1: like him. I don't want you to say, don't say that,

806
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 1: or I don't want I want you to be part

807
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 1: of my life. This is my life, you know, it's

808
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 1: very important for me to acknowledge that. And she said,

809
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 1: not only do it help me become a better person,

810
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:19,719
Speaker 1: you know, particularly amongst the people who ended up being

811
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:22,839
Speaker 1: my friends, who acknowledged. It made become a better mother.

812
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:25,319
Speaker 1: You know, it sort of like centered me rather than

813
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 1: ignored or sublimated. You know, you deal with it. Now,

814
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:30,800
Speaker 1: we've got Irish news Iris.

815
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 3: It's a world tour, this is a global podcast. You know,

816
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:39,720
Speaker 3: it's funny. I do think that the depths of evil,

817
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:41,880
Speaker 3: the positive to pull out of it is that you

818
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:46,440
Speaker 3: find the greatest displays of kindness and humanity like it.

819
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:49,440
Speaker 3: It's the both ends of the spectrum are often found together.

820
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 3: But from a personal perspective, was there a moment, because

821
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:57,279
Speaker 3: I know this has happened for other true crime podcasters,

822
00:43:57,320 --> 00:43:59,839
Speaker 3: has there been any moments along the investigation where you've

823
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:04,279
Speaker 3: felt scared or where something you've uncovered might have put

824
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:07,360
Speaker 3: you at risk? Like have you been worried, especially in

825
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 3: the States when you've been on the road, you know,

826
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 3: have there been moments where you've thought, oh my god,

827
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 3: what have we done?

828
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:16,239
Speaker 2: I think that because there's two of us, yes, I

829
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:18,319
Speaker 2: think that negates a lot of that. And you know,

830
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:20,920
Speaker 2: to be honest, I had a thought the other day

831
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:23,280
Speaker 2: that maybe, you know, it could be a bit dangerous,

832
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:26,200
Speaker 2: but then I thought, well, look, serial killers particularly and

833
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 2: we kind of specialize in serial killers. They like to

834
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 2: plan things and they research how they're going to do things. Yeah,

835
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 2: and if you think about it, look at us, Sarah,

836
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:36,919
Speaker 2: if you're a serial kid, if you're not us too off,

837
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:39,400
Speaker 2: how the hell are you going to dispose of the body?

838
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 1: That's so cruel? You meets six people, you know, so seriously,

839
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:48,160
Speaker 1: I'll tell you there was one time I was scared.

840
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 1: I'll give you an honest answer to that. It was

841
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 1: when we arrived in Boston late at night and Andy

842
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 1: took us to the worst part of town, to the

843
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:57,160
Speaker 1: wrong hotel at about midnight.

844
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:01,720
Speaker 3: Was unrelated to the sh that was just Anie's bad choices.

845
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:05,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, And we went to two hotels in that trip

846
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:08,840
Speaker 1: that were truly horrifying. One was the motel that Linda

847
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 1: was held an escape from, which truly is a motel

848
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 1: out of central casting for serial killers. Exactly. It'srendous. It

849
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:21,520
Speaker 1: should be isily tourist attracts. Yeah, yeah, exactly the same.

850
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:24,319
Speaker 3: You should do it catching evil tour where you take

851
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:27,239
Speaker 3: people on like a tourism and you take them to

852
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:31,879
Speaker 3: I'm not even joking. I'm not even joking. I could

853
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:34,279
Speaker 3: talk to you both for hours. This has been such

854
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:37,240
Speaker 3: a joy but to finish up. I think one of

855
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 3: the things that makes us best at the jobs that

856
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:41,160
Speaker 3: we do is getting a little bit of distance from

857
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:42,880
Speaker 3: it and being able to switch off, which is easier

858
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 3: said than done. But when you do need to kind

859
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 3: of get get a little bit of a refresher and

860
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 3: you know, at the end of the day, when you

861
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:53,279
Speaker 3: finish recording and you come home, is there anything that

862
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:55,840
Speaker 3: you do for pure joy? I feel like there's a

863
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:57,960
Speaker 3: G and T and an Irish wolf found in there somewhere.

864
00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:02,759
Speaker 3: But what do you guys do for pure pure yea yeah, yeah, and.

865
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:04,520
Speaker 2: Then watch out and get beat on the TV.

866
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 1: Yeah that's me.

867
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.

868
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:08,880
Speaker 1: He's got a man cave where he watches Everton in

869
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:15,920
Speaker 1: the gloom to replicate home. I have bold and unrealizable

870
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:18,560
Speaker 1: dreams to be a tennis star. So I played tennis.

871
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 1: Tennis is my love. So you know, So if you

872
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:24,440
Speaker 1: if you're looking for, you know a person who dreams

873
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:27,640
Speaker 1: of competing in the Australian Open, you know, an unrealistic

874
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 1: dream to sort of one day hold up the cup

875
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:31,920
Speaker 1: on that person.

876
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:35,359
Speaker 3: You know, never say never, Mark, never say never.

877
00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 1: I don't. I just like I go to sleep dreaming

878
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:43,439
Speaker 1: of the crowd during my expectance drink achieve a chief

879
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 1: and you have musk can put us on mark sure

880
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:49,279
Speaker 1: that you can get me to win Wimbledon.

881
00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:52,480
Speaker 3: Oh well, thank you to so much, not only for

882
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:56,279
Speaker 3: your time, but for the incredible work that you were

883
00:46:56,280 --> 00:47:00,040
Speaker 3: doing on this case in areas where really not no

884
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 3: one else has been able to make headway for decades

885
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:06,880
Speaker 3: and provide so much solace and closure I think for

886
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:09,919
Speaker 3: a lot of families around the world. And I can't

887
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 3: wait to see how the rest of your investigations and

888
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:15,360
Speaker 3: the season go. You know I will be listening keenly.

889
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,360
Speaker 3: I cannot wait to everyone listening. You will have just

890
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:21,640
Speaker 3: heard the Linda episode two days ago at the time

891
00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:25,240
Speaker 3: this release is, and a whole rest of the season

892
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:26,760
Speaker 3: to see what unravels.

893
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:28,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, thank you so much, thank you.

894
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 3: Well, we all know this was personally motivated by my

895
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:33,959
Speaker 3: love of true crime and crime fiction. I always wondered

896
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:36,120
Speaker 3: if I might have a true crime investigative podcast in

897
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 3: my system, and this was definitely enlightening. I found it

898
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 3: absolutely fascinating. I'd actually been listening to Catching Evil since

899
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:45,840
Speaker 3: the very first episode, right on the day that they launched.

900
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:47,840
Speaker 3: Before I knew that we had a mutual connection and

901
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:49,640
Speaker 3: that I would be able to sit down with Mark

902
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:52,759
Speaker 3: and Andy, but then being able to dive into the

903
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:54,200
Speaker 3: behind the scenes of what it takes to bring the

904
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:57,600
Speaker 3: show to life was just an absolute joy. And even

905
00:47:57,600 --> 00:47:59,879
Speaker 3: if you're not a true crime nut, you can't not

906
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 3: be fascinated by the power of podcasting to change history,

907
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:07,560
Speaker 3: the importance of grit and curiosity in any career path,

908
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:10,600
Speaker 3: and also how finding the right partner can make or

909
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 3: break the impact of a project in any industry. I

910
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 3: found that really fascinating, how much they referred back to

911
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:18,759
Speaker 3: each other and what a great team they make. I

912
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 3: truly found this so fascinating, And if you're interested in

913
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 3: the actual case as well, I'll of course pop links

914
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:26,279
Speaker 3: to Catching Evil in the show notes for you. As

915
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:28,680
Speaker 3: you've heard, there is so much more to come. We

916
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:31,719
Speaker 3: will have just heard episode seven a couple of days

917
00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 3: ago at the time of the release of this episode,

918
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:35,800
Speaker 3: but of course there is a whole season to come

919
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:38,879
Speaker 3: in the meantime. I hope you're all having a great week.

920
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 3: This year is absolutely flying by. There is so much

921
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:43,759
Speaker 3: exciting stuff happening at the moment. I hope you're all

922
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:46,399
Speaker 3: keeping safe and well and are seizing your da