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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mamma Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters. This podcast was

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Speaker 1: recorded on It's After Midnight on June twenty third, two

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Speaker 1: thousand and twenty, four year old Mnushka Tavan awakens to

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Speaker 1: a loud crashing and crackling noise, jumping off her bunk

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Speaker 1: in the Childer's Palace backpacks hostel in Queensland. She's beaten

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Speaker 1: to the door by her roommate. As he opens it,

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Speaker 1: a thick, tar like wall of black smoke enters the room.

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Speaker 1: Suddenly there's no light, no oxygen, just darkness. Mnushka grabs

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Speaker 1: a shirt and covers her nose and mouth, already feeling

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Speaker 1: her sense of hearing and being awake fading, but a clear,

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Speaker 1: calm voice tells her to head for the balcony. As

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Speaker 1: she scrambles to follow the voice, someone trips over her,

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Speaker 1: but she makes it. Suddenly she's in the open air

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Speaker 1: she can breathe. Behind her, there's an explosion. Minushka is

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Speaker 1: the last one out of the fire that will claim

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Speaker 1: the lives of fifteen people, mostly young backpackers, a fire

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Speaker 1: that will become one of the worst in Australia's history.

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Speaker 1: I'm Jemma Bath and this is True Crime Conversations a

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Speaker 1: Muma mea podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by

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Speaker 1: speaking to the people who know the most about them.

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Speaker 1: Childers is a rural town in the Bunderberg region of Queensland.

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Speaker 1: It's near the coast, about forty five minutes drive from

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Speaker 1: Harvey Bay and a few hours north of Brisbane. It's

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Speaker 1: a beautiful town set amongst the rolling hills, and it's

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Speaker 1: often a pitstop for many travelers and backpackers heading to

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Speaker 1: the area to fruit pick and make some extra cash.

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Speaker 1: The Children's Palace Backpackers hostel was Heritage listed, a lovely

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Speaker 1: old building in the center of town and a popular

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Speaker 1: place for those passing through. Nine women and six men

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Speaker 1: fifteen people in total, were lost in the fire that

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Speaker 1: engulfed the building in two thousand. There were sixty nine survivors.

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Speaker 1: Twenty four years have now passed since that devastating blaze,

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Speaker 1: and we are revisiting the crime and the aftermath with

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Speaker 1: journalist Paul Cochrane, whose podcast Childers re examined the evidence

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Speaker 1: and gave a voice to the many survivors who lived

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Speaker 1: through the terror of that night, Paul joins us. Now, Paul,

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Speaker 1: tell me a bit more about Childers. Back in the day.

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Speaker 1: It was quite a prosperous little town, right and lots

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Speaker 1: of backpackers coming through.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was. It was a real hub for it.

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Speaker 2: And under the Australian visa system, for a tourist to

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Speaker 2: be able to come and work in Australia, there's that

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Speaker 2: mandatory compulsory you have to go and do your time

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Speaker 2: on a farm, that type of thing. So it hacking. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I mean it had a real vibrancy around different nationalities.

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Speaker 2: A lot of Europeans coming through, a lot of bricks

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Speaker 2: coming through and living and working in the town. And

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Speaker 2: you know, when they weren't on a farm, they were

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Speaker 2: hanging out together and probably propping up a bar and

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Speaker 2: sitting on a stool and you know, putting the few

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Speaker 2: pennies that they'd probably spared for some nighttime nourishment that

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Speaker 2: they didn't want to allocate to their backpacking adventures, you know,

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Speaker 2: putting it back into the local town. So I really

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Speaker 2: did hum. There was a real pulse to it and

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Speaker 2: the backpackers were central to that.

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Speaker 1: So most of them were kind of staying there. It

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Speaker 1: was a real kind of hub for young people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, the Palace Backpacker Hostel was a working hostel,

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Speaker 2: so as opposed to other hostiles, we you just go

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Speaker 2: and use it as a residential area. I guess the

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Speaker 2: appeal of the Palace Backpackers Hostel was you go there

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Speaker 2: with a guarantee of having work, so people could turn

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Speaker 2: up at midnight one night and by six o'clock in

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Speaker 2: the morning they're on a bus getting taken to a

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Speaker 2: zucchini farm or something like that, you know. So that's

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Speaker 2: what the appeal of Childers was, and that really did

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Speaker 2: help sustain the local economy in a big way, and

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Speaker 2: it kept the farming side of things moving. You know,

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Speaker 2: they went left on it with a labor shortage and

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Speaker 2: so everyone win out of the equation. Some of the

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Speaker 2: backpackers might tell you that, you know, the idea of

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Speaker 2: picking fruit and vegetables, you know, all day and the

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Speaker 2: hot coins and sun wasn't necessarily their dream, but it

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Speaker 2: was a necessary evil under the visa requirements at the time.

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Speaker 1: And it sounds like they weren't just staying there for

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Speaker 1: one or two nights like a tourist. They were staying

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Speaker 1: there for like long periods of time. So that's a

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Speaker 1: real camaraderie that you start to kind of foster.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll talk to anyone who was there at the

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Speaker 2: time and they'll tell you that how much they fell

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Speaker 2: in love with the town. And in the wake of tragedy,

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Speaker 2: that town came together and threw its arms around people

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Speaker 2: at their time of need. But that really was happening

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Speaker 2: before you know, any sort of dire circumstances hit that town.

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Speaker 2: They will welcome, they are embraced, and they were included

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Speaker 2: as part of that community because people saw them as

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Speaker 2: you know, helping out keep the local economy going. But

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Speaker 2: they loved the idea that these different nationalities, different accents

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Speaker 2: were walking up and down the street. And the main

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Speaker 2: street of Children is the national highway. It's the Grease Highway.

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Speaker 2: So if you you know, going from you know at

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Speaker 2: the time, so like a Bunderberg through to Marabaro, like

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Speaker 2: keep going south to Gimpi, you'll go to the Sunshine

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Speaker 2: Coast and on to Brisbane where you pass through Childers.

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Speaker 2: You don't just pass through Childers, you pass through the

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Speaker 2: main street. So it was a place where people stopped

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Speaker 2: to grab lunch. You know, maybe just have a coffee,

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Speaker 2: put some fuel in their car. So there was a

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Speaker 2: lot of I guess people just stopping in checking it out,

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Speaker 2: and that still happens to this day. There's a far

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Speaker 2: more of an intrigue around the town, you know, in

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Speaker 2: the wake of tragedy, but that's been happening for years

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Speaker 2: and years because of the nature of the way the

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Speaker 2: town's built.

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Speaker 1: Can you help us visualize the hostel at the time,

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Speaker 1: it was a two story wooden structure.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, imagine a big, typical Queensland you know, a beautiful,

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Speaker 2: big sort of heritage listed verandah on it at the front.

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Speaker 2: I guess it had the beautiful balustrade that I guess

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Speaker 2: if you closed your eyes and said, what is a

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Speaker 2: typical heritage listed owns Land a home look like, except

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Speaker 2: much bigger. Yeah, that's kind of what the Palace Hostel

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Speaker 2: looked like it and a lot of the facade of

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Speaker 2: the building has been retained in the wake of the

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Speaker 2: of the event itself because it's such a striking, beautiful

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Speaker 2: building and had a history to it as well. It

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Speaker 2: had previously been been a pub, but it had been

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Speaker 2: I guess the local ballroom for some big events, you know,

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Speaker 2: going back early in the in the century, So yeah,

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Speaker 2: I mean it. It was a pride of place building

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Speaker 2: for the town that people looked at him and admired.

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Speaker 1: How did this story start for you because you were

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Speaker 1: only a few weeks into a new job as a

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Speaker 1: journalist when the fire unfolded.

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Speaker 2: Well, I was the fifth day of my fifth week

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Speaker 2: into a career in television, coming out of two years

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Speaker 2: of working on the local newspaper where I was covering

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Speaker 2: primarily local sport. I do a little preview of the

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Speaker 2: cricket match that might be going to be happening, and

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Speaker 2: I was part of it. So town, where were you?

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Speaker 2: You might be the athlete and I reporter at the

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Speaker 2: same time, So you know, I was covering everything from

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Speaker 2: greyhound racing, the lawn bowls to go karts to a

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Speaker 2: bit of cricket rugby league in the in the winter.

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Speaker 2: And I did that for two years on the local paper.

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Speaker 2: But an approach was made by Channel seven, the local

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Speaker 2: news there at the time, and said, look there's a

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Speaker 2: job going he interested. I initially said no, I didn't.

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Speaker 2: Thought it was sort of not something that was ever

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Speaker 2: really anything I wanted to do or I was probably

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Speaker 2: a little bit out of my depth, and then just

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Speaker 2: had a moment where I thought, you know what, let's

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Speaker 2: give it a go. And suddenly I was fifth day

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Speaker 2: and my fifth week later, I was taking carriage of

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Speaker 2: the biggest story in the world on my own there

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Speaker 2: for a little bit emotionally.

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Speaker 1: Has this story been one that's really stayed with you?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it has, and it's probably the reason why I

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Speaker 2: took on the podcast project. I remember, you know, Channel

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Speaker 2: seven were very good in offering counseling to anyone who

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Speaker 2: was involved in and around it at the time, and look,

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Speaker 2: I can't speak for others, but I certainly didn't take

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Speaker 2: up the offer. You know, I was adamant that I

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Speaker 2: was fine, you know. I guess probably in the back

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Speaker 2: of my mind for a long time I thought there's

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Speaker 2: probably unfinished business insomuch as being able to lay it

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Speaker 2: out on a table and talk about it. Now, I

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Speaker 2: think there's different ways you can go about doing that.

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Speaker 2: Do you talk to other people? And I probably chose to,

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Speaker 2: I guess, turn it into a project where I talked

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Speaker 2: about it in a far more open forum. But being

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Speaker 2: able to bounce my experiences and understand the experiences of

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Speaker 2: other people that were part of it was I guess

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Speaker 2: one of the benefits that a podcast gives you, so

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Speaker 2: bet I was able to unwrap other people's stories, but

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Speaker 2: at the same time get a better understanding of what

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Speaker 2: they went through. And here's a lot of them for

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Speaker 2: the first time. And I think they probably and some

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Speaker 2: of the feedback I've had is they probably felt a

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Speaker 2: sense of security and calm and being able to talk

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Speaker 2: to me about it because they knew that I had

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Speaker 2: a little bit of an understanding of what they went

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Speaker 2: through as well. So I think it was therapeutic on

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Speaker 2: a whole range of fronts for a lot of people.

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Speaker 2: And if I look back on it, yeah, I probably

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Speaker 2: did need to talk about it.

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Speaker 1: Just twenty years later. Let's go back to the events

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Speaker 1: of the night. Where in the hostel did the fire

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Speaker 1: start and how quickly did it engulf that building?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it happened downstairs, So there's two levels to the

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Speaker 2: backpack of hostel. And I guess the court trial and

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Speaker 2: the investigation into unraveled that there were several trigger points

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Speaker 2: that started that fire by the perpetrator and that happened downstairs.

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Speaker 2: So what you're really dealing with is a fire that

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Speaker 2: escalated and rose in height and depth and heat very

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Speaker 2: quickly to hit the and as we said, we're talking

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Speaker 2: about two levels, so it hit the floorboards that were

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Speaker 2: above it where people are residing, people are sleeping, and

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Speaker 2: so essentially they were sleeping on a hot plate and

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Speaker 2: hot plate. We know how that how that's going to

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Speaker 2: work out. I wouldn't hot plate. It's going to perish

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Speaker 2: very quickly. Yep. And in a backpack of hostel environment,

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Speaker 2: we can you know, easily assume some of the things

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Speaker 2: that would have been in there. You know, food stuffs,

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Speaker 2: you know, different things that people have when they're when

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Speaker 2: they're living, probably alcohol, yeah, I mean, and you know,

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Speaker 2: even just furniture and you know different things that make furniture.

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Speaker 2: You throw that all into one big toxic chemical mix,

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Speaker 2: and the fumes and the smoke that it generates, it

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Speaker 2: doesn't all burn the same way, so everything's sort of

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Speaker 2: melting into this I guess, you know, big barbecue for

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Speaker 2: one of a horrible term that that may be. That's

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Speaker 2: lifting very quickly and people are and there's a there's

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Speaker 2: a wedge of a floorboard between that fire and those people.

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Speaker 2: So you know, the clock was definitely ticking very quickly,

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Speaker 2: you know, very quickly and rapidly on those people.

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Speaker 1: How many people were staying that night and what did

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Speaker 1: they wake up to?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well the best count is eighty four people, so

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Speaker 2: that's a lot. There's a lot of people, you know,

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Speaker 2: in a fairly congested environment with you know, different rooms.

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Speaker 2: So now this fire happened just after midnight, you know,

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Speaker 2: and bearing in mind that they're backpackers, they've been out

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Speaker 2: for a few beers. Some of them had some birthday celebrations.

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Speaker 2: There was some people who were leaving the next day,

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Speaker 2: so there was farewell celebrations that night before. So they've

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Speaker 2: you know, they've got a few beers in there barely

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Speaker 2: we all know how well we'd probably sleep straight after

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Speaker 2: that and you know, lights out pretty quick. So that

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Speaker 2: fire happens just after midnight. A lot of them haven't

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Speaker 2: been asleep for very long, and you're usually in.

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Speaker 1: Your deepest sleep when you first go to.

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Speaker 2: Sleep, exactly. So in a town like Childre's on the

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Speaker 2: main street, there's some other pubs around, there's you know,

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Speaker 2: different nationalities. There's a few beers in this in the belly.

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Speaker 2: They hear what they think is a fight going on,

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Speaker 2: so people have woken up. They think it's a fight.

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Speaker 2: They think maybe some plates are getting smashed, or you know,

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Speaker 2: there's just or things are happening out on the street.

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Speaker 2: You know, this is on the National Highway. There's the

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Speaker 2: opportunity for foot traffic here there and everywhere around that hostel.

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Speaker 2: So in the wade carp it doesn't immediately occur to

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Speaker 2: them that hey, there's a fire. They just hear a

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Speaker 2: lot of noise, but then it escalates really quickly, and

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Speaker 2: then and then they start to obviously smell it.

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Speaker 1: Because there's no sirens or anything.

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Speaker 2: Is there. No, No, there's not. And I guess one

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Speaker 2: of the key things and the key criticisms of the

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Speaker 2: whole of the building at the time and everything was

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Speaker 2: there were no fire alarms and no exits, no illuminated

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Speaker 2: exit signs. So if you sort of think about that scenario,

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Speaker 2: the room's dark, so the fires cut the power so

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Speaker 2: it's gone, so it's pitch black. They can't breathe, they

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Speaker 2: can't see, they got no direction, so there's no illuminated

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Speaker 2: So what we take for granted now is a smoke

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Speaker 2: larm above our head and an illuminated exit signed the

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Speaker 2: green exit sign. Mann yeah, that gives you a sense

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Speaker 2: of direction that says, well, the doorways that way or

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Speaker 2: that way. Well, neither of those two things were there,

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Speaker 2: so no alarm to wake the mark to say and

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Speaker 2: the alarm is I guess a way of saying a

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Speaker 2: wake up. But b that means fire.

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Speaker 1: So they woke up kind of a bit, so they

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Speaker 1: didn't get.

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Speaker 2: That sensory awareness that A, it's fire will be Some

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Speaker 2: of them didn't even we don't know. Some of them

258
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Speaker 2: may not have even woken up. So and then but

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Speaker 2: then worse than that, he's not knowing how to get out.

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Speaker 2: So that so for some of the people who well

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Speaker 2: probably for everyone in that building, if you made it

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Speaker 2: or you didn't, you had to pick a path game.

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Speaker 2: You chose right or left.

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Speaker 1: It was that brutal yep.

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Speaker 2: And they don't know which way they're facing that their

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Speaker 2: orientation is completely gone. It's like they've got a n

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Speaker 2: fold on and they can't breathe. They take a breath,

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Speaker 2: they're probably dead from smoke in elation.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about it through the eyes of one

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Speaker 1: of the survivors you spoke to. She was one of

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Speaker 1: those people that knew kind of in the back of

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Speaker 1: her mind where to go, and that ultimately saved her

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Speaker 1: life and her roommates perished.

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Speaker 2: I guess that's what's really hard to come to terms with,

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Speaker 2: is that. And I think some of them have got

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Speaker 2: that survivor's gill where they say, yeah, maybe you know,

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Speaker 2: I just made a right decision. I mean some of

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Speaker 2: them were probably a little bit more diligent when they

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Speaker 2: arrived and thought, Okay, well, I'm in a strange building,

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Speaker 2: you know, in the rare scenario that something might happen,

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Speaker 2: where would I get out? How many steps away as

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Speaker 2: the door if I you know, And and she showed

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Speaker 2: that due diligence when she arrived, and that probably helped her,

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Speaker 2: you know. For me like that, that whole conversation is

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Speaker 2: forever parked in my head, and we've all sat on

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Speaker 2: a plane and we've all zoned out when the safety

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Speaker 2: awareness conversation happens, and I do it all the time.

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Speaker 2: But since I've had that conversation, I always remember that

289
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Speaker 2: and think, Okay, I better just be sure in my

290
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Speaker 2: head where that exit.

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Speaker 1: Is, and we should name it. The person we're talking

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Speaker 1: about is Sarah. She was only seventeen.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's not unusual to be honest that you know,

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Speaker 2: the backpackers some of them are on gap years straight

295
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Speaker 2: out of school, or they've taken a year off university.

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Speaker 2: That's the kind of age group that we're talking about.

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Speaker 2: And in some ways that age group is very relevant

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Speaker 2: when we start to talk about the perpetrator, you know,

299
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Speaker 2: and how that probably discrepancy in age and acceptance and

300
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Speaker 2: all those different things all apply. But you know, time

301
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Speaker 2: in life, age of seventeen and we've all been there

302
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Speaker 2: and yeah, you're over seas or you know, in Sia's instance,

303
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Speaker 2: she was Australian, but she was in it just on

304
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Speaker 2: a She's a bit of a free spirit herself, and

305
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Speaker 2: you know, she's just living your best life, you know,

306
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Speaker 2: and trying to get a few bucks in her pocket.

307
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Speaker 2: It gets some life experiences, meet some new people, you know,

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Speaker 2: and hanging out with different nationalities. You know, they're meeting

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Speaker 2: new people and probably people that you think, how I

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Speaker 2: really gel with these people and they're going to be

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Speaker 2: friends of mine that I'm going to hang out with them,

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Speaker 2: you know, I stay in contact with for the rest

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Speaker 2: of their life.

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Speaker 1: How quickly were the firefighters on the scene and to

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Speaker 1: set that scene a little bit. We're talking about a

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Speaker 1: country town, so it's not a huge contingent of fieries.

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Speaker 2: No, And I think I think people think that firefighting

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Speaker 2: by default is fighting fighters, but it's.

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Speaker 1: Well that goes with the name, but.

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Speaker 2: It's actually not. In regional towns, and particularly in a

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Speaker 2: town like Childers, which is on the National Highway, the

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Speaker 2: main job that those guys did was probably attending the

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Speaker 2: car accidents.

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Speaker 1: Yeah right, extricating people.

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Speaker 2: So a car accident happens and they turn up and

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Speaker 2: make sure that it's safe and clean up the road

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Speaker 2: and you know, and as you said, probably help someone

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Speaker 2: out if they're trapped or that type of thing. That

329
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Speaker 2: that became probably the bulk of their workload. But they

330
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Speaker 2: would do things like going and do checks on the building.

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Speaker 2: And some of them worked in like a I guess

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Speaker 2: a part time capacity as a firefighter too, so firefighting

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Speaker 2: wasn't necessarily their main job. There might be a mechanic.

334
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Speaker 2: So one of the firefighters involved had actually been there

335
00:18:01,102 --> 00:18:03,062
Speaker 2: in the days leaning up to because he was a mechanic.

336
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Speaker 2: He was doing some work on someone's car and he

337
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Speaker 2: actually had a had a visual of the building in

338
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Speaker 2: the lead up to it. As well, but they were

339
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Speaker 2: there relatively quickly. You know, mobile phones weren't really I mean,

340
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Speaker 2: we run it. We live a society there where mobile

341
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Speaker 2: phones are glued to our hands and the heartbeat of

342
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Speaker 2: everything that we do around the intelligence of our life.

343
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Speaker 2: But back then we weren't talking about smartphones. So we're

344
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Speaker 2: talking about a probably a pager system. And for I

345
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Speaker 2: guess any of you listeners who aren't familiar with that,

346
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Speaker 2: it's a little it's basically just a little device, little

347
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Speaker 2: beep and a little screen, very tiny that might run

348
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Speaker 2: almost like the ticker when you're watching the news in

349
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Speaker 2: the morning and the news will run along the bottom

350
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Speaker 2: of the screen, it would run along the pager with

351
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Speaker 2: a little twenty words or at hostel or exactly, and

352
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Speaker 2: something as cryptic as that, not a And my understanding

353
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Speaker 2: was that the firefighters knew that when that page went off,

354
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Speaker 2: then there was a fire, but it certainly didn't understand

355
00:19:05,942 --> 00:19:08,062
Speaker 2: the magnitude of it or what they were about to

356
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Speaker 2: turn up to. Another thing to take into account on

357
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Speaker 2: that child Childre's is a huge sufferer of extreme fog,

358
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Speaker 2: right and at that time of year fog really hits

359
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Speaker 2: the town. And on June twenty three. There was a

360
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Speaker 2: lot of fog. So the firefighters tell the story of

361
00:19:28,982 --> 00:19:31,982
Speaker 2: actually knowing there was a fire but driving straight past

362
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Speaker 2: the hostel. So in the early stage it because the

363
00:19:36,382 --> 00:19:39,942
Speaker 2: station's nearby, he's gone to go to the station. He said,

364
00:19:39,942 --> 00:19:44,102
Speaker 2: I drive past the hostel. The fog was that bad.

365
00:19:45,622 --> 00:19:48,742
Speaker 2: Actually really didn't understand that. I mean, the fire had

366
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Speaker 2: one hundred percent taken into big mass in gold flames

367
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Speaker 2: by that stage. But fog played a part that night.

368
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Speaker 2: So there was a whole heap of factors that came

369
00:19:58,062 --> 00:20:01,382
Speaker 2: into play. But look, they were there relatively relatively quickly,

370
00:20:01,422 --> 00:20:03,102
Speaker 2: and certainly quick quick enough.

371
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Speaker 1: By this point when they arrived, a lot of the

372
00:20:06,182 --> 00:20:10,262
Speaker 1: survivors had managed to kind of crawl onto roofs or balconies,

373
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Speaker 1: and so that was kind of the primary focus, wasn't

374
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Speaker 1: it getting everyone down?

375
00:20:15,142 --> 00:20:17,582
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was, And you know, they're trying to get

376
00:20:17,582 --> 00:20:20,702
Speaker 2: out as any way they could, And obviously the top

377
00:20:20,782 --> 00:20:23,982
Speaker 2: level of the hostel was where people were sleeping or

378
00:20:23,982 --> 00:20:26,902
Speaker 2: where they were living. Primarily there was a room downstairs

379
00:20:26,902 --> 00:20:31,222
Speaker 2: and that everyone got out of that unscathed, fortunately, but

380
00:20:31,662 --> 00:20:33,902
Speaker 2: everyone upstairs had to find a way to get out

381
00:20:34,142 --> 00:20:36,822
Speaker 2: anyway they could. So they managed to get out through

382
00:20:36,862 --> 00:20:39,982
Speaker 2: an access window and crawl out through the side of

383
00:20:39,982 --> 00:20:42,302
Speaker 2: the building. But you know, they were coming out in

384
00:20:43,542 --> 00:20:46,742
Speaker 2: clearly people who had been in a fire, covered in

385
00:20:46,822 --> 00:20:53,302
Speaker 2: black ash and soot and not really knowing because they

386
00:20:53,742 --> 00:20:57,102
Speaker 2: that was the the minute they got out, they were

387
00:20:57,142 --> 00:21:00,582
Speaker 2: able to take a gasp of air and breathe, able

388
00:21:00,582 --> 00:21:04,022
Speaker 2: to actually see something because I hadn't weren't able to see.

389
00:21:04,062 --> 00:21:06,902
Speaker 2: So they've got no idea who's around them. So it's

390
00:21:06,942 --> 00:21:10,302
Speaker 2: then coming to terms with, you know, what's just happened.

391
00:21:10,422 --> 00:21:13,942
Speaker 1: When firefighters actually opened the doors and tried to enter

392
00:21:13,982 --> 00:21:17,702
Speaker 1: the building. Was there going to be any chance of survivors?

393
00:21:17,822 --> 00:21:19,582
Speaker 1: You just spoke about how hot that was.

394
00:21:21,462 --> 00:21:26,462
Speaker 2: I think the firefighters probably didn't know what the first

395
00:21:26,502 --> 00:21:31,102
Speaker 2: time they got through that door, what they're about to

396
00:21:32,062 --> 00:21:33,982
Speaker 2: sort of face in front of them, And I think

397
00:21:34,022 --> 00:21:37,382
Speaker 2: the realization started to kick in the further they got

398
00:21:37,422 --> 00:21:40,062
Speaker 2: into it and then could understand the magnitude of the

399
00:21:40,062 --> 00:21:44,382
Speaker 2: height of that fire and then get I mean, they

400
00:21:44,382 --> 00:21:46,742
Speaker 2: don't have a manifesto of who's in that building or

401
00:21:46,742 --> 00:21:49,742
Speaker 2: anything like that, so they're just dealing with what's in

402
00:21:49,782 --> 00:21:53,422
Speaker 2: front of them, and they talking to some of the firefighters,

403
00:21:53,702 --> 00:21:57,342
Speaker 2: they sort of said, if you didn't get out quickly,

404
00:21:58,462 --> 00:22:04,822
Speaker 2: probably weren't getting out. But what was what was really

405
00:22:04,862 --> 00:22:13,102
Speaker 2: difficult to hear and and sort of understand was when

406
00:22:13,142 --> 00:22:17,302
Speaker 2: they saw the jail bars on some of the rooms.

407
00:22:17,782 --> 00:22:21,062
Speaker 2: So one of the rooms have been completely boarded up

408
00:22:21,102 --> 00:22:24,782
Speaker 2: with with jail bars on the windows as a security measure,

409
00:22:25,462 --> 00:22:29,502
Speaker 2: and that was highly populated. That room. There was nine

410
00:22:29,502 --> 00:22:32,862
Speaker 2: people in that room. Some of the firefighters have talked

411
00:22:32,862 --> 00:22:38,022
Speaker 2: about seeing bodies in that in that room and they'd

412
00:22:38,022 --> 00:22:40,182
Speaker 2: already passed away at that point.

413
00:22:40,022 --> 00:22:42,422
Speaker 1: Because that was the room where there was the largest

414
00:22:42,462 --> 00:22:43,702
Speaker 1: amount of fatality.

415
00:22:43,982 --> 00:22:47,542
Speaker 2: Yeah, And for me, like as a as a journalist

416
00:22:48,302 --> 00:22:51,822
Speaker 2: in the local area, when the fire was out and

417
00:22:51,822 --> 00:22:55,942
Speaker 2: the brea had been cleared and we're talking about the

418
00:22:56,022 --> 00:23:01,262
Speaker 2: second day afterwards, a couple of us were given a

419
00:23:01,302 --> 00:23:05,262
Speaker 2: walk through the building with the fire authorities to show

420
00:23:05,342 --> 00:23:11,142
Speaker 2: us what had happened. And the image that's still, i

421
00:23:11,142 --> 00:23:13,182
Speaker 2: guess is the most stark for me out of the

422
00:23:13,222 --> 00:23:18,502
Speaker 2: whole episode of the Childer's Fire is seeing that room

423
00:23:18,582 --> 00:23:23,462
Speaker 2: with the bars on it and the windows. We're talking

424
00:23:23,462 --> 00:23:26,902
Speaker 2: about jail bars. Therese are metal bars on.

425
00:23:26,822 --> 00:23:29,262
Speaker 1: Them even in just normal suburban houses that are on

426
00:23:29,342 --> 00:23:31,782
Speaker 1: ground floor. I've seen them around Sydney where we live.

427
00:23:31,902 --> 00:23:35,742
Speaker 2: Yeah, Now, under the under some of those windows were

428
00:23:35,902 --> 00:23:39,022
Speaker 2: numbers spray painted on the wall in black spray paint.

429
00:23:39,942 --> 00:23:44,662
Speaker 2: And the question was asked by someone, what are those numbers,

430
00:23:44,942 --> 00:23:50,422
Speaker 2: and they said, that's where we found the bodies. So

431
00:23:50,582 --> 00:23:54,262
Speaker 2: that I can't remember the numbers, but it was number

432
00:23:54,302 --> 00:23:58,022
Speaker 2: eight and number nine and that type of numbers were

433
00:23:58,062 --> 00:23:59,942
Speaker 2: spray painted on the wall and they were right under

434
00:23:59,942 --> 00:24:05,822
Speaker 2: the windows. So you can only imagine that those people

435
00:24:05,902 --> 00:24:09,302
Speaker 2: were trying to get out, yeah, through those windows. And

436
00:24:10,502 --> 00:24:14,662
Speaker 2: that's really difficult to grapple with that these people at

437
00:24:14,702 --> 00:24:19,702
Speaker 2: their most delicate moment, we're trying and they won't afforded

438
00:24:19,702 --> 00:24:23,582
Speaker 2: that chance for that to succeed. That's really difficult to

439
00:24:23,582 --> 00:24:25,862
Speaker 2: grapple with. And that that's probably the image out of

440
00:24:25,862 --> 00:24:29,142
Speaker 2: the whole the whole time that I covered that story,

441
00:24:29,302 --> 00:24:33,862
Speaker 2: and that probably is front of mine for me, that

442
00:24:33,862 --> 00:24:36,902
Speaker 2: that has always sat there, and it's a real it's

443
00:24:36,942 --> 00:24:42,022
Speaker 2: a real humbling thing to have witnessed, to have seen,

444
00:24:43,582 --> 00:24:46,942
Speaker 2: and then to try and rationalize what must have happened.

445
00:24:47,382 --> 00:24:51,422
Speaker 1: Especially so quickly after it happened.

446
00:24:51,742 --> 00:24:56,302
Speaker 2: Yeah, And like It's sort of developed from do we

447
00:24:56,342 --> 00:25:02,022
Speaker 2: hope everyone's out to something didn't get out? To why

448
00:25:02,022 --> 00:25:04,742
Speaker 2: did this happened? To anger? To why have you got

449
00:25:04,742 --> 00:25:11,062
Speaker 2: that camera in my face too? Let me alone? You know,

450
00:25:11,742 --> 00:25:18,742
Speaker 2: the emotions moved very quickly. And and grief grief. There's

451
00:25:18,782 --> 00:25:24,062
Speaker 2: no template for dealing with grief, and you threw it throw.

452
00:25:25,982 --> 00:25:28,622
Speaker 2: You know, being so far removed from your family, the

453
00:25:28,742 --> 00:25:32,622
Speaker 2: feeling of having nothing must just be horrible. These people

454
00:25:33,542 --> 00:25:36,302
Speaker 2: had nothing. I mean some of them was sleeping in

455
00:25:36,342 --> 00:25:40,022
Speaker 2: their underwear, so that's all they had was the pair

456
00:25:40,022 --> 00:25:45,262
Speaker 2: of undies around their waist. You know, there's a charity

457
00:25:45,302 --> 00:25:47,302
Speaker 2: store right next door that opened its doors in the

458
00:25:47,342 --> 00:25:50,262
Speaker 2: middle of the night so people could actually get some clothes.

459
00:25:50,342 --> 00:25:53,302
Speaker 2: Now people think about Queen's Lane has been warm and

460
00:25:53,342 --> 00:25:57,142
Speaker 2: sunny and you know, very comfortable all the time. I

461
00:25:57,142 --> 00:25:59,222
Speaker 2: could tell your childers in the middle of the Joune

462
00:25:59,342 --> 00:26:02,742
Speaker 2: is bloody cold. It's it's a very cold place. And

463
00:26:03,382 --> 00:26:05,182
Speaker 2: you know, so these people had nothing, They had nothing

464
00:26:05,182 --> 00:26:06,462
Speaker 2: to identify themselves.

465
00:26:07,182 --> 00:26:08,542
Speaker 1: Well, everything would have been lost.

466
00:26:08,382 --> 00:26:10,422
Speaker 2: Yeah, like how do you prove who you are?

467
00:26:10,422 --> 00:26:16,062
Speaker 1: A fifteen lives were lost in the fire and looking

468
00:26:16,102 --> 00:26:18,702
Speaker 1: at the list of the names of the people who died.

469
00:26:18,822 --> 00:26:22,222
Speaker 1: Fourteen were aged between eighteen and thirty one, with one

470
00:26:22,302 --> 00:26:25,342
Speaker 1: forty eight year old. We've got all kinds of nationalities

471
00:26:25,342 --> 00:26:28,542
Speaker 1: which you've mentioned. Seven from England, two from Australia, two

472
00:26:28,542 --> 00:26:32,502
Speaker 1: from Holland, one from Ireland, Morocco, Japan and South Korea.

473
00:26:33,182 --> 00:26:36,022
Speaker 1: So this is a fire that wouldn't have just attracted

474
00:26:36,062 --> 00:26:39,942
Speaker 1: headlines in Australia. This is worldwide news. This is worldwide grief.

475
00:26:40,862 --> 00:26:42,582
Speaker 2: Yea, it is. It was headlines all over the world.

476
00:26:42,662 --> 00:26:44,422
Speaker 2: It was the biggest story in the world there, you know.

477
00:26:44,462 --> 00:26:47,422
Speaker 2: And for me I was doing radio crosses in the

478
00:26:47,902 --> 00:26:50,302
Speaker 2: in the sort of mid morning. I remember the day

479
00:26:50,342 --> 00:26:53,782
Speaker 2: after the fire from a public telephone box across the road,

480
00:26:54,022 --> 00:26:58,742
Speaker 2: feeding coins into an old, old school telstra phone with

481
00:26:58,862 --> 00:27:03,182
Speaker 2: a queue of backpackers standing there wanting to be able

482
00:27:03,182 --> 00:27:05,622
Speaker 2: to ring home, but they had nothing. I remember emptying

483
00:27:05,662 --> 00:27:07,622
Speaker 2: out whatever coins I had in my pocket and handing

484
00:27:07,662 --> 00:27:09,702
Speaker 2: it to one of the British guys saying he made

485
00:27:09,742 --> 00:27:13,102
Speaker 2: ring home. You know. I guess the silver lining of

486
00:27:13,142 --> 00:27:15,342
Speaker 2: not being in a mobile phone erar is people actually

487
00:27:15,422 --> 00:27:17,622
Speaker 2: knew had numbers stored away in their head.

488
00:27:17,862 --> 00:27:20,222
Speaker 1: True, I wouldn't know a number to save my life.

489
00:27:20,262 --> 00:27:22,582
Speaker 2: Now. Yeah, but even then, talking to some of the

490
00:27:22,662 --> 00:27:27,742
Speaker 2: families who had children who survived that fire, the relief

491
00:27:27,822 --> 00:27:31,902
Speaker 2: of getting that phone call, you know, when they you know,

492
00:27:32,662 --> 00:27:34,942
Speaker 2: for given the time zone, some of this, they were

493
00:27:34,982 --> 00:27:37,742
Speaker 2: waking up to news. But they're building a fire hours

494
00:27:37,782 --> 00:27:40,182
Speaker 2: earlier at a place where they knew that their child

495
00:27:40,422 --> 00:27:43,942
Speaker 2: was or for some of them not knowing is my

496
00:27:44,622 --> 00:27:47,622
Speaker 2: I know my kids in Australia somewhere, they're working on

497
00:27:47,662 --> 00:27:51,142
Speaker 2: a farm somewhere. Where are they today? You know, is

498
00:27:51,182 --> 00:27:55,902
Speaker 2: that the one they're at? And then you know, consulate

499
00:27:55,982 --> 00:28:00,422
Speaker 2: officials and police even not actually knowing. We talked about

500
00:28:00,462 --> 00:28:03,582
Speaker 2: eighty four people being in that building, but well who

501
00:28:03,742 --> 00:28:07,382
Speaker 2: was in the building. Everything's been burnt. All the records

502
00:28:07,382 --> 00:28:12,502
Speaker 2: of who was actually there has been burnt. Who was there, so.

503
00:28:12,502 --> 00:28:15,342
Speaker 1: Even identifying the bodies that were found that would have

504
00:28:15,342 --> 00:28:16,102
Speaker 1: taken a while too.

505
00:28:16,142 --> 00:28:20,022
Speaker 2: Write Yeah, it did. I mean that talking to some

506
00:28:20,062 --> 00:28:22,782
Speaker 2: of the survivors, you know that what they what they

507
00:28:22,782 --> 00:28:25,422
Speaker 2: did was they quickly there's a pub across the road,

508
00:28:25,462 --> 00:28:30,502
Speaker 2: which you know was a traditional nightly sort of communal

509
00:28:30,542 --> 00:28:33,542
Speaker 2: hangout for them anyway, So that opened up in the

510
00:28:33,542 --> 00:28:37,022
Speaker 2: middle of the night survivors was sort of there, and

511
00:28:37,102 --> 00:28:38,502
Speaker 2: you know, they were given a bit of a debrief

512
00:28:38,542 --> 00:28:41,142
Speaker 2: on what firefighter and police authorities knew had happened at

513
00:28:41,182 --> 00:28:46,742
Speaker 2: the time, and quickly among themselves they were drawing up

514
00:28:46,782 --> 00:28:49,222
Speaker 2: a list of who was in the building. So it

515
00:28:49,342 --> 00:28:52,822
Speaker 2: might be I know, Jenma was in there, and you know, Jemmy,

516
00:28:52,822 --> 00:28:54,582
Speaker 2: you knew that so and so was in there, And

517
00:28:55,142 --> 00:28:57,502
Speaker 2: quickly they started to piece together a bit of a

518
00:28:57,542 --> 00:29:00,182
Speaker 2: list and that's how it started, you know, in a

519
00:29:00,262 --> 00:29:05,542
Speaker 2: very very sort of raw way of building a manifest

520
00:29:05,542 --> 00:29:06,622
Speaker 2: of who was in that building.

521
00:29:08,222 --> 00:29:11,022
Speaker 1: One of the positive sides, and there aren't many of

522
00:29:11,062 --> 00:29:14,622
Speaker 1: this story, is the way the community rallied around those survivors.

523
00:29:16,702 --> 00:29:19,702
Speaker 1: We talk about Australian community spirit. I don't think it

524
00:29:19,702 --> 00:29:22,462
Speaker 1: gets much more amazing than what they did.

525
00:29:23,182 --> 00:29:27,422
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know I talked about that community giving

526
00:29:27,462 --> 00:29:31,382
Speaker 2: those survivors a communal hug at the time and to

527
00:29:31,422 --> 00:29:33,342
Speaker 2: this day they still continue to do that.

528
00:29:34,142 --> 00:29:35,262
Speaker 1: So there's still in touch.

529
00:29:35,422 --> 00:29:40,142
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's people who were intimately involved in the I guess,

530
00:29:40,582 --> 00:29:42,862
Speaker 2: for want of a better term, the recovery process for

531
00:29:42,902 --> 00:29:46,262
Speaker 2: the community you know that still live and reside there.

532
00:29:46,302 --> 00:29:49,422
Speaker 2: It still sits with them, and you know it's something

533
00:29:49,462 --> 00:29:54,822
Speaker 2: that has become a very pivotal moment in their life.

534
00:29:55,102 --> 00:29:58,902
Speaker 2: Who simply opened their doors and said, you know, come

535
00:29:58,942 --> 00:30:03,182
Speaker 2: and have a have a sleep, have a shower, clean

536
00:30:03,222 --> 00:30:06,102
Speaker 2: your teeth, you know, basic little things that we take

537
00:30:06,142 --> 00:30:08,822
Speaker 2: for granted. And you know when those relationships built at

538
00:30:08,822 --> 00:30:15,262
Speaker 2: the time, and being able to call upon basic resources

539
00:30:15,302 --> 00:30:18,902
Speaker 2: like a box of fruit and food, and the people

540
00:30:18,942 --> 00:30:21,022
Speaker 2: did not have a scent to their name, nothing to

541
00:30:21,102 --> 00:30:25,422
Speaker 2: identify themselves, no clays, so that community to be able

542
00:30:25,462 --> 00:30:29,342
Speaker 2: to wrap its arms around all those survivors, and not

543
00:30:29,462 --> 00:30:34,582
Speaker 2: just survivors, but be a point of calm and a

544
00:30:34,662 --> 00:30:39,422
Speaker 2: sense of security for family too. You know, thousands of

545
00:30:39,502 --> 00:30:41,782
Speaker 2: killometers away in another country.

546
00:30:41,342 --> 00:30:45,702
Speaker 1: And mums and dads it sounds like they were exactly.

547
00:30:45,302 --> 00:30:49,582
Speaker 2: And dealing with the torment of their children being involved

548
00:30:49,582 --> 00:30:52,422
Speaker 2: in something that they're only seeing on the news. And

549
00:30:53,342 --> 00:30:55,982
Speaker 2: you know, I'm not going to sit here and pretend

550
00:30:56,022 --> 00:31:02,582
Speaker 2: that the news would have been giving a really accurate snapshot.

551
00:31:02,902 --> 00:31:08,702
Speaker 2: You know that it people can perceive what they see

552
00:31:08,742 --> 00:31:11,222
Speaker 2: and hear on the news or on the radio or

553
00:31:11,262 --> 00:31:14,022
Speaker 2: in newspapers in many different ways. And you know how

554
00:31:14,022 --> 00:31:18,182
Speaker 2: that story is curated. People will probably jump to the

555
00:31:18,182 --> 00:31:22,222
Speaker 2: worst conclusion on what they're seeing. So they're waking up

556
00:31:22,262 --> 00:31:27,102
Speaker 2: to breakfast TV in London and sort of seeing it

557
00:31:27,142 --> 00:31:30,262
Speaker 2: and they're going to think the worst, you know, So

558
00:31:30,422 --> 00:31:33,222
Speaker 2: it must have been horrible for those the people who

559
00:31:33,582 --> 00:31:36,222
Speaker 2: felt so helpless to be so far away not being

560
00:31:36,262 --> 00:31:36,782
Speaker 2: able to help.

561
00:31:41,862 --> 00:31:45,582
Speaker 1: You're listening to true crime Conversations with me Jemma Bath.

562
00:31:46,062 --> 00:31:49,702
Speaker 1: I'm speaking with the host of the Childer's podcast, Paul Cochrane.

563
00:31:50,062 --> 00:31:52,542
Speaker 1: After the break we talk about the dramatic manhunt that

564
00:31:52,662 --> 00:31:54,982
Speaker 1: ended in the arrest of the man responsible for the

565
00:31:55,022 --> 00:32:01,462
Speaker 1: hostel fire. How quickly was the fire being treated as

566
00:32:01,502 --> 00:32:03,182
Speaker 1: suspicious straight away?

567
00:32:03,502 --> 00:32:07,542
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, And I'll probably only realized that when I

568
00:32:07,582 --> 00:32:10,182
Speaker 2: look back on the event of how quickly that that

569
00:32:10,462 --> 00:32:12,622
Speaker 2: I was been talked about a suspicious I know among

570
00:32:12,662 --> 00:32:18,022
Speaker 2: the among the media contingent. It was probably by nighttime

571
00:32:18,102 --> 00:32:21,422
Speaker 2: of the first night or into the second day where

572
00:32:21,422 --> 00:32:24,902
Speaker 2: it started to be speculated that this might have been arson,

573
00:32:25,662 --> 00:32:29,542
Speaker 2: and that was jarring for the local community. Actually, there

574
00:32:29,542 --> 00:32:32,942
Speaker 2: was a lot of people took massive offense really to

575
00:32:33,022 --> 00:32:36,742
Speaker 2: the notion that it would be arson, because that wouldn't

576
00:32:36,742 --> 00:32:40,022
Speaker 2: happen in our community. That type of that type of

577
00:32:40,662 --> 00:32:44,782
Speaker 2: you know, feeling of the notion that you might be

578
00:32:44,862 --> 00:32:49,502
Speaker 2: unsafe and Shulders was jarring and offensive to some of

579
00:32:49,542 --> 00:32:53,622
Speaker 2: the long term residents there. But when I've gone back

580
00:32:53,662 --> 00:32:57,742
Speaker 2: and looked at it, it's very obvious that that initial

581
00:32:57,822 --> 00:33:02,582
Speaker 2: meeting of people of the survivors in the pub across

582
00:33:02,582 --> 00:33:05,062
Speaker 2: the road straight away that was talked that we.

583
00:33:05,022 --> 00:33:07,062
Speaker 1: Think we know who did this, So they were already

584
00:33:07,062 --> 00:33:08,862
Speaker 1: bringing up the name Robert long Yeah.

585
00:33:08,702 --> 00:33:12,582
Speaker 2: And police have already and police then have confirmed that

586
00:33:12,662 --> 00:33:16,582
Speaker 2: in conversations were saying, yep, this is a guy that

587
00:33:16,622 --> 00:33:21,582
Speaker 2: we're that was already put on our radar very quickly.

588
00:33:22,022 --> 00:33:27,022
Speaker 2: At a media conference of the police, he was identified

589
00:33:27,022 --> 00:33:30,142
Speaker 2: as a suspect, as someone that they wanted to speak to.

590
00:33:30,502 --> 00:33:33,822
Speaker 2: Suspects probably not the word in the first twenty four hours,

591
00:33:33,822 --> 00:33:36,582
Speaker 2: but certainly someone we want to speak to. The fact

592
00:33:36,582 --> 00:33:39,902
Speaker 2: that he disappeared and was out of mind, out of sight,

593
00:33:40,822 --> 00:33:45,222
Speaker 2: probably even raised further suspicions around Robert long Well.

594
00:33:45,102 --> 00:33:47,942
Speaker 1: He'd been staying at the hostel as well. Who was

595
00:33:47,982 --> 00:33:49,142
Speaker 1: he what was he doing there?

596
00:33:49,662 --> 00:33:54,662
Speaker 2: He was a very different individual. We talked about the

597
00:33:54,662 --> 00:33:57,662
Speaker 2: age demographic of some of those backpackers been sort of

598
00:33:57,662 --> 00:34:01,262
Speaker 2: in that seventeen to early twenties kind of kind of

599
00:34:01,742 --> 00:34:04,502
Speaker 2: bracket of people. Robert Long didn't fit into that category.

600
00:34:04,542 --> 00:34:10,782
Speaker 2: He was late thirties. He was someone that simply did

601
00:34:10,782 --> 00:34:14,182
Speaker 2: not fit in with the core of the backpack of

602
00:34:14,262 --> 00:34:21,422
Speaker 2: hostel residency among that group. Yet everything I hear almost

603
00:34:21,542 --> 00:34:24,022
Speaker 2: lends itself to he wanted to fit in. He wanted

604
00:34:24,062 --> 00:34:27,862
Speaker 2: to be part of it. But he was abrasive. He

605
00:34:29,062 --> 00:34:33,182
Speaker 2: was abusive to them. He would and I think some

606
00:34:33,222 --> 00:34:35,862
Speaker 2: of that probably stems out of his inability to be

607
00:34:35,902 --> 00:34:39,182
Speaker 2: able to crack that veneer of being able to fit

608
00:34:39,222 --> 00:34:42,382
Speaker 2: in with everyone. He had form. He had criminal form

609
00:34:42,662 --> 00:34:49,262
Speaker 2: as well, so he had a history of basically setting

610
00:34:49,302 --> 00:34:54,262
Speaker 2: fires to small fires to things. He had form in

611
00:34:54,822 --> 00:35:00,782
Speaker 2: domestic violence. Police were able to quickly piece together I

612
00:35:00,782 --> 00:35:03,062
Speaker 2: guess a mud map of who Robert Long was. But

613
00:35:03,422 --> 00:35:06,742
Speaker 2: he was a disgruntle an individual where stories would were

614
00:35:06,942 --> 00:35:09,382
Speaker 2: he would make up tall tails and sit around the

615
00:35:09,382 --> 00:35:13,422
Speaker 2: bar and sort of put the hard word on people

616
00:35:13,422 --> 00:35:16,462
Speaker 2: for money. He's saying that, you know, he had a

617
00:35:16,582 --> 00:35:21,142
Speaker 2: child going through cancer and needed and they were all myths.

618
00:35:21,662 --> 00:35:23,902
Speaker 2: There was no truth at all to any of these stories.

619
00:35:23,942 --> 00:35:27,502
Speaker 2: But he was trying to I guess emotionally blackmail people

620
00:35:27,582 --> 00:35:30,462
Speaker 2: and get on side with people and trying to get

621
00:35:30,462 --> 00:35:32,022
Speaker 2: money out of them. He owed a lot of money

622
00:35:32,022 --> 00:35:33,942
Speaker 2: to the managers of the hostel.

623
00:35:34,302 --> 00:35:36,142
Speaker 1: Well, he'd been evicted a few days before.

624
00:35:36,302 --> 00:35:38,182
Speaker 2: He'd been evicted because he owed money, and there was

625
00:35:38,222 --> 00:35:41,182
Speaker 2: a story of him being chased down the main street

626
00:35:41,342 --> 00:35:46,382
Speaker 2: of the town and yet somehow he kept managing to

627
00:35:46,422 --> 00:35:48,702
Speaker 2: find his way back in and around the premises.

628
00:35:49,462 --> 00:35:53,462
Speaker 1: Well, he very quickly became Australia's most wanted man for

629
00:35:53,542 --> 00:35:56,142
Speaker 1: about a week there. What happened? How did that hunt

630
00:35:56,182 --> 00:35:59,222
Speaker 1: come to an end? Because that was also incredibly dramatic, Well,

631
00:35:59,222 --> 00:35:59,422
Speaker 1: it was.

632
00:35:59,462 --> 00:36:02,422
Speaker 2: Dramatic even on the man hunt to be honest, because

633
00:36:02,462 --> 00:36:06,382
Speaker 2: and as a journalist sort of covering the story, there

634
00:36:06,422 --> 00:36:09,302
Speaker 2: were so many layers to the story. So you're dealing

635
00:36:09,302 --> 00:36:14,462
Speaker 2: with a victim things and you know, you basically a

636
00:36:14,582 --> 00:36:18,342
Speaker 2: crime and then you've got this manhunt going on in small,

637
00:36:18,342 --> 00:36:21,942
Speaker 2: little regional towns in Queensland where people don't know what

638
00:36:21,942 --> 00:36:25,382
Speaker 2: they're dealing with. So that you've got a man described

639
00:36:25,382 --> 00:36:30,222
Speaker 2: as dangerous on the run in a lot of I

640
00:36:30,222 --> 00:36:34,342
Speaker 2: guess big properties. So we're talking it's a farming community.

641
00:36:34,382 --> 00:36:37,782
Speaker 2: But it's but they're big open properties. You know, it's

642
00:36:37,822 --> 00:36:40,902
Speaker 2: not unusual for people to not lock their lock their

643
00:36:40,902 --> 00:36:44,942
Speaker 2: doors because they just know everyone around their neighborhood. And

644
00:36:44,982 --> 00:36:47,702
Speaker 2: we're not talking about gated communities, so it's pretty easy

645
00:36:47,702 --> 00:36:51,262
Speaker 2: to get in and out of different backyards.

646
00:36:51,062 --> 00:36:52,582
Speaker 1: Mean people are very isolated too.

647
00:36:52,782 --> 00:36:57,222
Speaker 2: Yeah, and yet suddenly there's a fear factor kicked in

648
00:36:57,342 --> 00:37:02,902
Speaker 2: so well, people felt really unsafe in their own little

649
00:37:02,902 --> 00:37:05,422
Speaker 2: town and their own and their own home. And so

650
00:37:05,462 --> 00:37:08,262
Speaker 2: you had people locking up their doors and not leaving

651
00:37:08,302 --> 00:37:13,262
Speaker 2: their house and looking over their shoulder and wondering who

652
00:37:13,582 --> 00:37:19,102
Speaker 2: was so Robert long was was eventually seen look somewhere

653
00:37:19,142 --> 00:37:23,542
Speaker 2: around forty five minutes away in a small small town

654
00:37:23,702 --> 00:37:27,302
Speaker 2: called how It Now by foot that you know, that

655
00:37:27,342 --> 00:37:29,942
Speaker 2: would have taken him a little bit of time to

656
00:37:30,342 --> 00:37:33,302
Speaker 2: walk there, if you think about forty five minutes high

657
00:37:33,342 --> 00:37:36,142
Speaker 2: speed driving on a national highway. So that's a that's

658
00:37:36,142 --> 00:37:39,022
Speaker 2: a fair walk from it was three or four days

659
00:37:39,062 --> 00:37:44,262
Speaker 2: later when that siding took place. There is some suggestion

660
00:37:44,342 --> 00:37:48,742
Speaker 2: he might have jumped on some cane trains to get

661
00:37:48,822 --> 00:37:51,902
Speaker 2: himself to some of those areas. So he was spotted

662
00:37:51,942 --> 00:37:57,382
Speaker 2: by someone in the special Emergency Response Team commonly one

663
00:37:57,422 --> 00:38:00,542
Speaker 2: assert were in and around the area, so some offices

664
00:38:00,582 --> 00:38:05,742
Speaker 2: were deployed to that area and a struggle unfolded Robert Long.

665
00:38:06,582 --> 00:38:10,382
Speaker 2: They were they had police dogs with them, so Rober

666
00:38:10,582 --> 00:38:14,862
Speaker 2: Long he had a knife with him and he did

667
00:38:15,342 --> 00:38:17,862
Speaker 2: stab the poor of the.

668
00:38:18,222 --> 00:38:20,622
Speaker 1: Dog, which was another headline that took its own.

669
00:38:21,022 --> 00:38:23,542
Speaker 2: Yeah, the British media really got around that. Yeah, the

670
00:38:23,582 --> 00:38:26,782
Speaker 2: hero police dog and that. And then he was shot

671
00:38:27,142 --> 00:38:32,022
Speaker 2: in the shoulder. Now Long believed that he was about

672
00:38:32,062 --> 00:38:37,182
Speaker 2: to die and a police officer and this is on

673
00:38:37,262 --> 00:38:40,142
Speaker 2: the back of a wrestling match I guess with one

674
00:38:40,182 --> 00:38:42,222
Speaker 2: of the police officers, and he actually the knife went

675
00:38:42,222 --> 00:38:44,062
Speaker 2: through his jaw and he lost some teeth in that

676
00:38:44,702 --> 00:38:48,662
Speaker 2: struggle with this cert police officer who had the dog.

677
00:38:49,342 --> 00:38:50,902
Speaker 2: So rob A. Long was shot in the shoulder and

678
00:38:50,942 --> 00:38:54,902
Speaker 2: he believed he was dying and as an officer stood

679
00:38:55,022 --> 00:38:59,702
Speaker 2: over him, he said, I'm dying anyway, I lit that fire.

680
00:39:00,502 --> 00:39:03,542
Speaker 2: The officer at the time did not have any did

681
00:39:03,702 --> 00:39:06,422
Speaker 2: not have a notebook with him, and all he had

682
00:39:06,622 --> 00:39:10,742
Speaker 2: was a ten dollar note and he wrote that down

683
00:39:10,862 --> 00:39:13,582
Speaker 2: on that ten dollar note. It was admitted as evidence.

684
00:39:14,862 --> 00:39:17,302
Speaker 1: It gets more Australian than that and a ten dollar note.

685
00:39:17,462 --> 00:39:19,942
Speaker 2: I don't know that's the most famous ten dollar note

686
00:39:19,982 --> 00:39:20,542
Speaker 2: in Australia.

687
00:39:20,582 --> 00:39:23,462
Speaker 1: Probably a confession on a ten dollar note.

688
00:39:23,542 --> 00:39:26,542
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I believe that coins and police still have

689
00:39:26,662 --> 00:39:32,902
Speaker 2: it in a ziploc bag as a commemorative piece, so

690
00:39:32,982 --> 00:39:35,382
Speaker 2: somewhere it should end up in a museum.

691
00:39:36,022 --> 00:39:38,702
Speaker 1: Long's trial didn't start for another two years after he

692
00:39:38,822 --> 00:39:42,782
Speaker 1: was apprehended. He pled not guilty. Firstly, can you walk

693
00:39:42,862 --> 00:39:45,262
Speaker 1: us through the charges because he wasn't charged with all

694
00:39:45,342 --> 00:39:46,102
Speaker 1: fifteen deaths.

695
00:39:46,702 --> 00:39:49,342
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a really unusual charge system that was

696
00:39:49,382 --> 00:39:51,942
Speaker 2: put in place. So obviously fifteen people died in the fire,

697
00:39:51,982 --> 00:39:54,502
Speaker 2: but he was only charged with the deaths of Kelly

698
00:39:54,582 --> 00:39:58,742
Speaker 2: and Stacy Slark to West Australian twins. I guess that

699
00:39:59,582 --> 00:40:03,822
Speaker 2: did not sit well with the families of Obviously the

700
00:40:03,902 --> 00:40:07,022
Speaker 2: thirteen are the victims of the fire. But the rationale

701
00:40:07,142 --> 00:40:13,262
Speaker 2: from the prosecutor on that if anything was to go

702
00:40:13,422 --> 00:40:17,542
Speaker 2: wrong in the trial, it gave them room for appeal

703
00:40:19,182 --> 00:40:22,782
Speaker 2: and they had thirteen other people that they could lay

704
00:40:22,862 --> 00:40:28,342
Speaker 2: the charges against. Now, under the judicial system at the time,

705
00:40:28,982 --> 00:40:33,982
Speaker 2: two victims or fifteen victims, the penalty would be the same.

706
00:40:34,742 --> 00:40:35,422
Speaker 1: That's a joke.

707
00:40:35,902 --> 00:40:38,302
Speaker 2: It was a joke, and it has been There has

708
00:40:38,422 --> 00:40:41,822
Speaker 2: been some amendments made to that system since, but at

709
00:40:41,862 --> 00:40:46,502
Speaker 2: the time two or fifteen made no difference to the outcomes,

710
00:40:46,542 --> 00:40:51,302
Speaker 2: so that the decision was made in order to, I guess,

711
00:40:51,382 --> 00:40:56,422
Speaker 2: give the prosecution process room to progress should anything go

712
00:40:56,582 --> 00:41:00,182
Speaker 2: wrong through the initial trial, that there were thirteen other

713
00:41:00,302 --> 00:41:06,102
Speaker 2: victims that this crime could be labeled against. Now, the

714
00:41:06,222 --> 00:41:12,422
Speaker 2: conversations I had with the prosecutor through the podcast said

715
00:41:13,942 --> 00:41:17,502
Speaker 2: the fact that Kelly and Stacey Slack with twins did

716
00:41:17,622 --> 00:41:22,222
Speaker 2: assist in that process because with two victims with similar DNA,

717
00:41:22,782 --> 00:41:26,782
Speaker 2: then that actually was beneficial to that process of being

718
00:41:26,822 --> 00:41:29,622
Speaker 2: able to pin two deaths on him.

719
00:41:30,822 --> 00:41:34,622
Speaker 1: It's understandable when you understand the judicial side of things,

720
00:41:34,702 --> 00:41:37,142
Speaker 1: but for the families, that's really heartbreaking.

721
00:41:37,302 --> 00:41:40,222
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's still heartbreaking for them. I think they

722
00:41:41,222 --> 00:41:45,222
Speaker 2: understand it, but still don't necessarily agree with it. It's

723
00:41:45,262 --> 00:41:47,582
Speaker 2: still very difficult, and I can only put my own

724
00:41:47,662 --> 00:41:50,262
Speaker 2: parent hat on and think that must be very tough

725
00:41:51,342 --> 00:41:56,662
Speaker 2: for them. Yeah, very difficult for a parent to think

726
00:41:56,822 --> 00:42:01,142
Speaker 2: that that man there's never been charged with the murder

727
00:42:01,222 --> 00:42:04,422
Speaker 2: of their child and yet they died.

728
00:42:05,022 --> 00:42:08,302
Speaker 1: Did the prosecution have a hard job ahead of them

729
00:42:08,302 --> 00:42:10,142
Speaker 1: because they had a confession, as we mentioned on a

730
00:42:10,182 --> 00:42:10,862
Speaker 1: ten dollar night.

731
00:42:11,142 --> 00:42:12,342
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean they've still got to be able to

732
00:42:12,502 --> 00:42:16,902
Speaker 2: prove that it was arson, right, it could to be

733
00:42:16,942 --> 00:42:21,662
Speaker 2: able to prove it was arson, because if it's not arson,

734
00:42:22,942 --> 00:42:26,622
Speaker 2: it could just be an accidental fire in an old building. Yeah,

735
00:42:27,422 --> 00:42:32,382
Speaker 2: So that process in itself was really fascinating and how

736
00:42:32,462 --> 00:42:35,782
Speaker 2: they went about doing that. What happened was this was

737
00:42:36,462 --> 00:42:41,182
Speaker 2: I guess, pre significant digital technology in two thousand, but

738
00:42:41,262 --> 00:42:43,302
Speaker 2: a lot of imagery had been taken and it was

739
00:42:44,862 --> 00:42:47,702
Speaker 2: a fire expert that was known to coins and police

740
00:42:47,782 --> 00:42:50,782
Speaker 2: was based in California, So that the imagery and the

741
00:42:51,022 --> 00:42:53,382
Speaker 2: I guess, the measurements and the data and you know,

742
00:42:53,462 --> 00:42:56,822
Speaker 2: all that sort of accumulation of evidence that had been

743
00:42:56,902 --> 00:43:01,542
Speaker 2: compiled in the building was sent to this gentleman in California,

744
00:43:01,942 --> 00:43:05,382
Speaker 2: and from his loungdream he managed to prove that it

745
00:43:05,542 --> 00:43:09,782
Speaker 2: was arson. Now not just arson, but that there were

746
00:43:10,542 --> 00:43:13,102
Speaker 2: to pull trigger points. Now the multiple trigger points is

747
00:43:13,142 --> 00:43:19,822
Speaker 2: actually important because it infers the intent of damage, and

748
00:43:19,902 --> 00:43:23,342
Speaker 2: then he kept doing mass damage. Yeah. What was able

749
00:43:23,382 --> 00:43:27,982
Speaker 2: to be proved by based on the heat, the height,

750
00:43:28,102 --> 00:43:31,142
Speaker 2: and the velocity of that fire was that it had

751
00:43:31,142 --> 00:43:35,742
Speaker 2: to have been lit at least twice, because Robert Long

752
00:43:35,862 --> 00:43:38,022
Speaker 2: was seen in the vicinity of a fire in a

753
00:43:38,182 --> 00:43:41,262
Speaker 2: bin by one of the other survivors of the fire

754
00:43:42,702 --> 00:43:46,702
Speaker 2: moments before what they believe was a second fire was lit,

755
00:43:47,702 --> 00:43:53,702
Speaker 2: which ultimately caused the deaths of fifteen people. So it's

756
00:43:53,782 --> 00:43:58,302
Speaker 2: understood that a fire was lit in a bin. And

757
00:43:58,382 --> 00:44:01,302
Speaker 2: if you think about a couch where that I guess

758
00:44:01,382 --> 00:44:04,902
Speaker 2: the seat part of the couch is in multiple pieces,

759
00:44:04,942 --> 00:44:09,102
Speaker 2: and there's a cushion. He's taken the cushion from the

760
00:44:09,222 --> 00:44:12,702
Speaker 2: couch and he's put it. He's created a bridge between

761
00:44:12,822 --> 00:44:17,022
Speaker 2: the bin and the arm of the couch to create

762
00:44:17,102 --> 00:44:21,062
Speaker 2: a path or a bonfire type type scenario. And it's

763
00:44:21,102 --> 00:44:24,422
Speaker 2: been lip multiple times in several points in order to

764
00:44:24,502 --> 00:44:28,262
Speaker 2: create that fire that then takes off. And that I

765
00:44:28,342 --> 00:44:30,502
Speaker 2: found that fascinating that they were able to do that

766
00:44:30,542 --> 00:44:33,102
Speaker 2: from California and the reason he was chosen, this man

767
00:44:33,182 --> 00:44:39,142
Speaker 2: out of California was in the nineteen seventies in California,

768
00:44:39,902 --> 00:44:43,942
Speaker 2: a whole heap of residential buildings were I guess confined

769
00:44:44,102 --> 00:44:48,662
Speaker 2: to science experiments where they said, well, we need to

770
00:44:48,662 --> 00:44:50,542
Speaker 2: get rid of these buildings. They're no good for anything.

771
00:44:51,182 --> 00:44:54,142
Speaker 2: But instead of just getting rid of them, they almost

772
00:44:54,182 --> 00:44:58,862
Speaker 2: handed them over for experimentation, and the fire departments would

773
00:44:58,902 --> 00:45:03,942
Speaker 2: go on create fires in them and understand the behavior

774
00:45:04,022 --> 00:45:08,342
Speaker 2: patterns of fires. And out of that process, this man

775
00:45:08,502 --> 00:45:10,942
Speaker 2: was part of that. He's become a global expert in

776
00:45:11,022 --> 00:45:12,062
Speaker 2: being able to prove.

777
00:45:12,062 --> 00:45:12,742
Speaker 1: How amazing is that?

778
00:45:12,862 --> 00:45:16,342
Speaker 2: Listen? Yeah? Yeah, And this was done and this was

779
00:45:16,382 --> 00:45:19,622
Speaker 2: done from his lounge room in California. He never attended

780
00:45:20,422 --> 00:45:20,862
Speaker 2: the building.

781
00:45:21,542 --> 00:45:24,782
Speaker 1: After nineteen days, he was found guilty and sentenced to

782
00:45:24,862 --> 00:45:27,782
Speaker 1: life in prison with a non parole period of twenty years.

783
00:45:29,422 --> 00:45:32,542
Speaker 1: Were the victims and survivors happy with that twenty years

784
00:45:32,662 --> 00:45:33,262
Speaker 1: behind bars?

785
00:45:33,982 --> 00:45:35,822
Speaker 2: No, I think they would have preferred that that was

786
00:45:36,622 --> 00:45:39,302
Speaker 2: significantly longer than the twenty years, particularly when you take

787
00:45:39,342 --> 00:45:43,142
Speaker 2: into account, you know, the victim impact statements that were

788
00:45:43,182 --> 00:45:46,222
Speaker 2: tabled and the fact that there were fifteen deaths, not

789
00:45:46,382 --> 00:45:49,782
Speaker 2: just two. Unfortunately at the time under the Queensland law

790
00:45:49,942 --> 00:45:52,822
Speaker 2: at the time, twenty years was the maximum he could get.

791
00:45:53,462 --> 00:45:55,862
Speaker 2: My understanding is that's now been extended to twenty five

792
00:45:55,942 --> 00:45:59,782
Speaker 2: years before he's considered for parole. Long was up for

793
00:45:59,902 --> 00:46:05,142
Speaker 2: parole in twenty twenty, he made an application for parole and.

794
00:46:06,502 --> 00:46:08,662
Speaker 1: That was denied, so he's still in prison.

795
00:46:08,782 --> 00:46:11,902
Speaker 2: He's still in prison. Chances of getting out of prison

796
00:46:11,982 --> 00:46:15,902
Speaker 2: have probably taken a slide on the back of a

797
00:46:16,582 --> 00:46:18,742
Speaker 2: I guess a grand standing event he did where he

798
00:46:18,822 --> 00:46:21,342
Speaker 2: ended up on the roof of the prison at Way

799
00:46:21,422 --> 00:46:26,142
Speaker 2: Colin in Queensland last year. I believe it was That'll

800
00:46:26,222 --> 00:46:29,382
Speaker 2: do It which made the news. So his chances probably

801
00:46:29,862 --> 00:46:33,662
Speaker 2: took a noose dive of that. So he's not close

802
00:46:33,742 --> 00:46:36,742
Speaker 2: to getting getting parole. And I think anyone in and

803
00:46:36,822 --> 00:46:43,062
Speaker 2: around that fire, and particularly the families of the victims,

804
00:46:43,542 --> 00:46:46,382
Speaker 2: would like it to see that that remains forever and

805
00:46:46,462 --> 00:46:46,982
Speaker 2: ever a day.

806
00:46:48,942 --> 00:46:52,622
Speaker 1: You said that the hostel has been restored, so is

807
00:46:52,662 --> 00:46:54,582
Speaker 1: it a hostel anymore? Is it something else?

808
00:46:55,342 --> 00:46:57,822
Speaker 2: So the area where the fire took place is now

809
00:46:57,862 --> 00:47:01,222
Speaker 2: a memorial to the victims and it's a beautiful memorial

810
00:47:01,502 --> 00:47:04,422
Speaker 2: that a lot of time and effort was put into

811
00:47:05,022 --> 00:47:07,422
Speaker 2: the best way to represent the victims of the fire.

812
00:47:08,582 --> 00:47:12,582
Speaker 2: It sits in the Childre's Art gallery and it's a

813
00:47:12,662 --> 00:47:16,542
Speaker 2: real center piece of the town. There's a beautiful I

814
00:47:16,622 --> 00:47:20,142
Speaker 2: guess guest book where people write their comments whenever they

815
00:47:20,222 --> 00:47:22,422
Speaker 2: go in anytime I'm in town, I was going and

816
00:47:22,502 --> 00:47:25,382
Speaker 2: just take a moment to sit and reflect. And it's

817
00:47:25,422 --> 00:47:29,142
Speaker 2: a giant glass wall with a light reflection box of

818
00:47:29,342 --> 00:47:31,742
Speaker 2: photos of the lives of the fifteen victims that have

819
00:47:31,862 --> 00:47:34,622
Speaker 2: been laid out on the glass wall. If you had

820
00:47:34,662 --> 00:47:36,542
Speaker 2: to look at the aerial view of the main street

821
00:47:36,582 --> 00:47:39,622
Speaker 2: of Childers, the pattern of how they've been sent out

822
00:47:39,662 --> 00:47:44,742
Speaker 2: actually is the same pattern and the line in the glass.

823
00:47:44,982 --> 00:47:47,902
Speaker 2: So it's really classy. It stood the test of time,

824
00:47:48,542 --> 00:47:52,742
Speaker 2: that memorial, and it continues to get significant foot traffic

825
00:47:52,822 --> 00:47:55,662
Speaker 2: on a daily basis of people going in and seeing it,

826
00:47:55,782 --> 00:47:59,982
Speaker 2: and to a large extent was part of the reason

827
00:48:00,062 --> 00:48:02,902
Speaker 2: why I wanted to take on the podcast as well,

828
00:48:02,982 --> 00:48:05,902
Speaker 2: to make sure that the memory of what happened in Childers,

829
00:48:05,942 --> 00:48:09,582
Speaker 2: but particularly the memory of those fifteen victims, was you'd

830
00:48:09,622 --> 00:48:10,222
Speaker 2: never forgotten.

831
00:48:11,702 --> 00:48:14,582
Speaker 1: You've obviously spoken to these survivors twenty years after the fact.

832
00:48:15,302 --> 00:48:18,142
Speaker 1: What if their lives look like, how have they grappled

833
00:48:18,182 --> 00:48:19,182
Speaker 1: with what happened to them?

834
00:48:19,702 --> 00:48:25,622
Speaker 2: Look a lot of PTSD really among them. I don't

835
00:48:25,702 --> 00:48:27,822
Speaker 2: think that any of them would stand there and tell

836
00:48:27,822 --> 00:48:29,902
Speaker 2: you that their lives are ever the same after the fire.

837
00:48:30,662 --> 00:48:35,102
Speaker 2: And I guess that's one of the other really disappointing

838
00:48:35,502 --> 00:48:39,182
Speaker 2: elements of the sentencing of Robert Long is that his sentence,

839
00:48:39,862 --> 00:48:42,502
Speaker 2: his sentence was applied to the deaths of two people,

840
00:48:43,342 --> 00:48:47,062
Speaker 2: not fifteen people, not the thirteen others, But not one

841
00:48:47,102 --> 00:48:51,222
Speaker 2: element of his sentence was applied to the sixty nine survivors. True,

842
00:48:51,222 --> 00:48:54,182
Speaker 2: his lives have been torn upside down on the back

843
00:48:54,262 --> 00:48:58,382
Speaker 2: of that, not one element was referred to that community.

844
00:48:58,542 --> 00:49:01,662
Speaker 2: That a lot of people in that community, you still

845
00:49:01,742 --> 00:49:05,582
Speaker 2: have sleepless nights of what they heard and saw and

846
00:49:06,342 --> 00:49:08,542
Speaker 2: dealt with in the aftermath of that fire as well.

847
00:49:08,702 --> 00:49:13,942
Speaker 2: So it's very punishment for the carnage that was caused. Really,

848
00:49:14,742 --> 00:49:18,702
Speaker 2: look that they're a really resilient group of people, you know.

849
00:49:18,782 --> 00:49:23,702
Speaker 2: And one of the things that came out of doing

850
00:49:23,782 --> 00:49:27,902
Speaker 2: the podcast was that some of them spoke about it

851
00:49:27,982 --> 00:49:31,022
Speaker 2: for the first time and for many the only time,

852
00:49:32,142 --> 00:49:34,942
Speaker 2: you know, and we're prepared to let their guard down

853
00:49:35,062 --> 00:49:41,342
Speaker 2: to tell their story what they went through and then

854
00:49:42,182 --> 00:49:45,622
Speaker 2: felt better about it, which was probably the most rewarding

855
00:49:45,702 --> 00:49:49,942
Speaker 2: thing for me as the person who sort of unpacked

856
00:49:49,982 --> 00:49:50,862
Speaker 2: that a little bit for them.

857
00:49:52,022 --> 00:49:54,222
Speaker 1: Just shows the ripple effect. It's not just the survive.

858
00:49:54,342 --> 00:49:55,222
Speaker 1: It's their families.

859
00:49:55,262 --> 00:49:59,582
Speaker 2: It's yeah, you know, it's so sad, you know. And

860
00:49:59,742 --> 00:50:04,902
Speaker 2: then I spoke to David O'Keefe in the podcaster, Irish gentleman,

861
00:50:05,622 --> 00:50:08,582
Speaker 2: you know, and his sister died in the fire. And

862
00:50:09,302 --> 00:50:12,102
Speaker 2: they've got another sister as well, and she was in

863
00:50:12,222 --> 00:50:16,942
Speaker 2: Bali when the bombings happened, and you know, their mum

864
00:50:17,142 --> 00:50:21,862
Speaker 2: saying not again, you know. Fortunately it was just she

865
00:50:21,942 --> 00:50:23,382
Speaker 2: couldn't reach her in the middle of the night on

866
00:50:23,462 --> 00:50:26,462
Speaker 2: the phone. But she's straight away taken back to Childers

867
00:50:27,422 --> 00:50:32,742
Speaker 2: not again, you know, Like it's just I think the

868
00:50:32,822 --> 00:50:35,582
Speaker 2: words you use there, the ripple effect a just you know,

869
00:50:35,742 --> 00:50:43,022
Speaker 2: so profound. And then there's there's stories like a Mulay,

870
00:50:43,142 --> 00:50:46,662
Speaker 2: the Moroccan gentleman who died. No one knew who he was,

871
00:50:47,942 --> 00:50:49,662
Speaker 2: they knew his name, they didn't know what he looked like.

872
00:50:49,822 --> 00:50:52,862
Speaker 2: So you know, we talk about the memorial there that's

873
00:50:52,902 --> 00:50:55,822
Speaker 2: been it's been created, and there's a there's a beautiful

874
00:50:55,902 --> 00:51:00,662
Speaker 2: mural that was done by really talented Sydney painter just

875
00:51:00,782 --> 00:51:04,702
Speaker 2: only a pilatus and she was able to she sort

876
00:51:04,742 --> 00:51:07,342
Speaker 2: of put this mural together of fifteen people in a

877
00:51:07,902 --> 00:51:09,982
Speaker 2: field where they would have been working and you know,

878
00:51:10,102 --> 00:51:13,262
Speaker 2: depicted as they're all together having a morning tea break,

879
00:51:13,542 --> 00:51:16,862
Speaker 2: the type of thing, and Mulays depicted as this sort

880
00:51:16,902 --> 00:51:20,462
Speaker 2: of gentleman in the background based on some of the

881
00:51:20,582 --> 00:51:23,462
Speaker 2: things that people had talked about, but no one really

882
00:51:23,542 --> 00:51:25,462
Speaker 2: knew what he looked like because no one actually had

883
00:51:25,502 --> 00:51:29,142
Speaker 2: any photos of him or anything like that. So the

884
00:51:29,502 --> 00:51:32,502
Speaker 2: story goes that a couple of years had gone by

885
00:51:32,622 --> 00:51:35,582
Speaker 2: after the memorial was opened, and this lady came in

886
00:51:35,662 --> 00:51:40,622
Speaker 2: and she said, that gentleman there, where's his photos? And

887
00:51:40,982 --> 00:51:43,742
Speaker 2: they said, well, she didn't know who he was, but

888
00:51:44,222 --> 00:51:46,302
Speaker 2: we weren't able to track anything down. And he'd been

889
00:51:46,382 --> 00:51:50,182
Speaker 2: depicted on I'm San de Moura had previously been to Morocco,

890
00:51:50,302 --> 00:51:52,142
Speaker 2: and so he just put in what he you know,

891
00:51:52,262 --> 00:51:56,142
Speaker 2: some landscape photos of Morocco and things that he thought

892
00:51:56,182 --> 00:51:59,862
Speaker 2: that might have been part of Mulay's life. And this

893
00:51:59,982 --> 00:52:02,902
Speaker 2: lady said, well, I'm actually connected to his family and

894
00:52:03,182 --> 00:52:05,462
Speaker 2: we're going to get some photos. They're able to correct

895
00:52:05,502 --> 00:52:09,222
Speaker 2: it and fix it up, so, you know, and pay

896
00:52:09,302 --> 00:52:12,902
Speaker 2: homage to him a bit as well in that. But yeah,

897
00:52:12,902 --> 00:52:15,142
Speaker 2: I mean, there's just everyone's got a story, and that's

898
00:52:15,142 --> 00:52:18,062
Speaker 2: what I tried to try to be able to pay

899
00:52:18,142 --> 00:52:20,782
Speaker 2: homage to those fifteen victims a little bit through there.

900
00:52:21,902 --> 00:52:24,102
Speaker 2: You know, their story that they never got a chance

901
00:52:24,182 --> 00:52:26,622
Speaker 2: to be able to tell and live out a full

902
00:52:26,702 --> 00:52:29,782
Speaker 2: life like we all tape for granted, Has it been

903
00:52:29,862 --> 00:52:30,342
Speaker 2: healing for you?

904
00:52:30,342 --> 00:52:33,022
Speaker 1: You're a twenty four year old journo, Yeah, starting a

905
00:52:33,102 --> 00:52:34,702
Speaker 1: new job. It's a big thing to deal with.

906
00:52:35,102 --> 00:52:37,942
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, look in a way, look, it's

907
00:52:37,942 --> 00:52:40,182
Speaker 2: a project I'm insanely proud of. It took nine months

908
00:52:40,222 --> 00:52:43,062
Speaker 2: to do, and I was in no hurry to get

909
00:52:43,102 --> 00:52:46,902
Speaker 2: it finished. You know, I wanted it. I wanted it

910
00:52:47,022 --> 00:52:49,062
Speaker 2: to sort of be in circulation around the time of

911
00:52:49,102 --> 00:52:52,942
Speaker 2: the twentieth anniversary of the fire, and you know, and

912
00:52:53,022 --> 00:52:56,662
Speaker 2: that was achieved. But yeah, I mean there is no

913
00:52:56,862 --> 00:53:00,142
Speaker 2: doubt that it was. You know, it was profoundly cathartic

914
00:53:00,222 --> 00:53:02,262
Speaker 2: for me to be able to dig a little bit

915
00:53:02,302 --> 00:53:05,662
Speaker 2: deeper into it, and you know, living experience, I guess

916
00:53:05,822 --> 00:53:09,502
Speaker 2: was really important to be able to almost do it properly.

917
00:53:10,062 --> 00:53:11,942
Speaker 2: If that, if that's a way of looking at it.

918
00:53:12,142 --> 00:53:14,542
Speaker 2: You know, twenty years on, I got a lot out

919
00:53:14,582 --> 00:53:20,782
Speaker 2: of it, and I think the thing I'm most proud

920
00:53:20,862 --> 00:53:23,862
Speaker 2: of is hearing some of the people who lent their

921
00:53:23,942 --> 00:53:26,462
Speaker 2: voices and their stories to it saying the same thing,

922
00:53:26,782 --> 00:53:29,182
Speaker 2: and that is the most beautiful thing out of all

923
00:53:29,222 --> 00:53:31,822
Speaker 2: of it, I think. You know, as a as a

924
00:53:31,902 --> 00:53:35,262
Speaker 2: media professional, we all like to think that no, no,

925
00:53:35,342 --> 00:53:37,502
Speaker 2: I'm the good guy. You know, I'm the journey, that

926
00:53:37,982 --> 00:53:41,102
Speaker 2: I don't do anything. But the perception outside of our

927
00:53:41,142 --> 00:53:43,662
Speaker 2: bubble is that we're all going to stitch someone up.

928
00:53:44,462 --> 00:53:48,182
Speaker 2: And that's not true, but that's the perception. And I

929
00:53:48,222 --> 00:53:52,022
Speaker 2: think since I've stepped away from mainstream media, I've understood

930
00:53:52,062 --> 00:53:55,382
Speaker 2: that a lot better as well. That everyone thinks the

931
00:53:55,502 --> 00:53:58,782
Speaker 2: journal is the used car salesman who's going to turn

932
00:53:58,862 --> 00:53:59,222
Speaker 2: them over.

933
00:53:59,782 --> 00:54:02,702
Speaker 1: There was enough bad eggs out there to make us

934
00:54:03,222 --> 00:54:03,662
Speaker 1: look a bit.

935
00:54:03,942 --> 00:54:06,182
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we but every one of us will be

936
00:54:06,222 --> 00:54:08,622
Speaker 2: in denial when you're in the bubble, be in the journey.

937
00:54:09,502 --> 00:54:11,422
Speaker 2: So then put yourself in the shoes of the person

938
00:54:11,502 --> 00:54:14,822
Speaker 2: that you're trying to tell the most pivotal moment of

939
00:54:14,862 --> 00:54:18,702
Speaker 2: the most heart wrenching moment of their life. You know,

940
00:54:18,782 --> 00:54:23,102
Speaker 2: the most extreme grief and tragedy they'll ever encounter, and

941
00:54:23,382 --> 00:54:25,462
Speaker 2: you know touch Wooden will never happened to them again.

942
00:54:26,182 --> 00:54:29,782
Speaker 2: Trusting someone with that story is to me, that was

943
00:54:29,822 --> 00:54:32,022
Speaker 2: the most rewarding out of all of it, that they

944
00:54:32,102 --> 00:54:32,582
Speaker 2: trusted me.

945
00:54:34,942 --> 00:54:37,262
Speaker 1: Thanks to Paul for helping us to tell this story.

946
00:54:38,062 --> 00:54:41,382
Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations is a Muma mea podcast hosted and

947
00:54:41,462 --> 00:54:44,622
Speaker 1: produced by me, Jemma Bath and Tarlie Blackman, with audio

948
00:54:44,742 --> 00:54:48,142
Speaker 1: design by Jacob Brown. Thanks so much for listening. I'll

949
00:54:48,182 --> 00:54:50,742
Speaker 1: be back next week with another True Crime Conversation