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Speaker 1: So much. You're listening to a Mamma Mia podcast. Mamma

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Speaker 1: Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and borders that

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Speaker 1: this podcast is recorded on.

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Speaker 2: From Mamma may I. Welcome to the Spill your daily

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Speaker 2: pop culture Fix. I'm m Burnham and I'm Laura Brodnick.

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Speaker 2: And on the show today, there's a big difference between

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Speaker 2: the way people talk about two certain celebrities bodies. We'll

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Speaker 2: be discussing that, but first.

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Speaker 1: But first to talk about some news that has been

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Speaker 1: consuming my mind since it was confirmed yesterday. Well, first

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Speaker 1: of all, I should say it was confirmed a little

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Speaker 1: while ago that actress and filmmaker and also Midge in

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Speaker 1: the Barbie movies, Emerald Fanelle, would be making a big

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Speaker 1: screen adaptation of one of the most famous and most

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Speaker 1: studied books of all time, Wathering Heights. And we know

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Speaker 1: this because she posted a graphic on her Instagram a

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Speaker 1: while ago with a quote from Wathering Heights saying, be

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Speaker 1: with me, always take any form, drive me mad. African

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Speaker 1: love that book, and everyone got very excited about her adaptation.

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Speaker 1: And then yesterday it was confirmed, much to the Internet's

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Speaker 1: delight and horror in equal measure, that Margo Robbie and

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Speaker 1: Jacob o'lordie would be starring as the two leads, Kathy

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Speaker 1: and Heathcliff. First of all, have you read Wathering Heights

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Speaker 1: before you got any further? How did you get through

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Speaker 1: Year twelve English?

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Speaker 2: I didn't. I actually failed.

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Speaker 1: Oh.

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Speaker 2: I think we talked about this on the podcast.

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Speaker 1: Cycling right past that very infamous book, Kathleen and Heathcliff.

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Speaker 1: I mean, would we say yes, romance? There's a whole

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Speaker 1: backstory there. I don't know, guys, we can't get into

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Speaker 1: the backstory of Wathering Heights at this point in time,

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Speaker 1: but it is very, very famous book.

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Speaker 2: I'll take your word for it, well, you.

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Speaker 1: Can take there's starts to back this up. Written by

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Speaker 1: Emily Bronte, it was first release back in nineteen forty

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Speaker 1: seven and, as I said, considered one of the greatest

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Speaker 1: English written books. I've read the book multiple times like

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Speaker 1: many other millennial women in high school, and was like

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Speaker 1: fascinated by this whole story. And I've seen so many adaptations,

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Speaker 1: so many movies and TV shows about six or so

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Speaker 1: and I do a little digging and we're up to

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Speaker 1: fourteen adaptations of film and TV of this book.

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Speaker 2: People love it.

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Speaker 1: Yes, again, that's not I have my.

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Speaker 2: Nana's copy that is like really old, like broken down

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Speaker 2: into bits. It's kind of like in this big plastic bag. Oh,

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Speaker 2: because we can't open it because we're literally disintegraged.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's fair.

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Speaker 2: She's like, this is like one of my most prized possessions.

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Speaker 1: Oh. I think a lot of people feel the way,

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Speaker 1: and this is why it's started up a lot of feelings.

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Speaker 1: So to kind of break it down, people are not

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Speaker 1: super happy about about Margot Robbie and Jacob Alordi being

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Speaker 1: cast and lead roles. I think it's just because these

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Speaker 1: are very iconic characters in literature, and obviously they're going

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Speaker 1: to make them look like the characters, and they can

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Speaker 1: make Margot Robbie look eighteen all that sort of stuff.

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Speaker 1: But I do think that mentioned eighteen.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, okay, I'm starting to understand.

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Speaker 1: It's just like when you kind of picture characters in

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Speaker 1: your mind and then you see the casting, it's kind

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Speaker 1: of hard to see how it will translate. Also, Margo

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Speaker 1: Robbie's production company is involved in it. She's teamed up

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Speaker 1: with Emerald Fanew for Promising Young Women, which Emerald Fanell

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Speaker 1: won an Oscar for original screen.

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Speaker 2: Brilliant and also for Saltburn.

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Speaker 1: Which also stand by is a great movie.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think anything Emerald Fanell touches is brilliant.

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Speaker 1: I think that's where my disappointment is coming from. I

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Speaker 1: do have a little bit of fatigue about this story

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Speaker 1: being told so many times, and I've seen so many different,

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Speaker 1: particularly film versions. I think capture it really well, and

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Speaker 1: I don't know what she's going to do different, and

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Speaker 1: I just think it's kind of.

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Speaker 2: Hard, like what the quirk will be.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I just kind of find it interesting that a

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Speaker 1: filmmaker and also a female filmmaker, of which there is,

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Speaker 1: you know, the scarcity of that in the current climate,

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Speaker 1: is that she is known for making these really original films,

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Speaker 1: like promising young women in Saltburn, Like obviously they both

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Speaker 1: have their own floors, but they are like big swings.

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Speaker 1: They have a real voice and a real look to them,

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Speaker 1: and I think she's really exciting as a filmmaker, and

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Speaker 1: so I find it kind of a little bit disappointing

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Speaker 1: that I feel like it looks like she's going to

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Speaker 1: make almost like a beat for beat remake of all

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Speaker 1: these movies that have been made before. Because I don't

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Speaker 1: think they're modernizing it and kind of why would you?

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Speaker 1: And it made me feel the same way I did

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Speaker 1: when I found out that Greta Gerwick also an amazing

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Speaker 1: filmmaker with a very unique voice, after making movies like

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Speaker 1: Francis Hart and then also Barbie and like having such

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Speaker 1: an incredible unique voice and take with Barbie in the

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Speaker 1: practical effects, then announced that she was going to remake

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Speaker 1: the Narnia movies. This is the third time they're making them,

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Speaker 1: really yes, because they've got their original BBC adaptation and

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Speaker 1: then the big screen adaptation which I don't even think

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Speaker 1: they finished those movies, and now she's going for a

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Speaker 1: third swing at Nannia, and I just think I'm excited

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Speaker 1: to see her take on it. But I just think

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Speaker 1: we're just losing two very unique voices in filmmaking to

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Speaker 1: these almost like remakes and franchises, where I would just

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Speaker 1: like them to see them gone right their own original screenplays,

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Speaker 1: that is what I would like.

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Speaker 2: I'm not up is that what everyone else is upset about.

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Speaker 1: No, I think people are very upset from what I

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Speaker 1: can tell about, just not thinking that Marga, Robbie and

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Speaker 1: Jacob Wadi are rite for these very iconic roles because

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Speaker 1: of like looks and age and tone. But again, you know,

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Speaker 1: I guess it's the point of acting. They're going to

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Speaker 1: make them look like these characters. But I think when

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Speaker 1: you have a book like this that's so beloved and

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Speaker 1: people have a real intense ownership over it, there was

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Speaker 1: really going to be not any kind of casting that

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Speaker 1: was going to please everybody.

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Speaker 2: I saw a tweet that said two Australians as a

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Speaker 2: lead that we should call it gnthering.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's not the worst take out, that's for sure.

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Speaker 1: So this week we've seen two stories about two famous

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Speaker 1: women's bodies doing the rounds, a lot of people throwing

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Speaker 1: in their opinions around that. I should start by saying

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Speaker 1: that I do wish we lived in a world where

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Speaker 1: we didn't talk about anyone's body. Ever, that's obviously the ideal,

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Speaker 1: but I think in the situation we're in now, especially

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Speaker 1: in terms of the way representation is moving and the

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Speaker 1: conversations we're having about body, what's happening on catwalks, what's

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Speaker 1: happening in casting studios, we're seeing this like real decline

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Speaker 1: of body diversity. And I think if we don't talk

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Speaker 1: about it and call it out then, and it's only

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Speaker 1: gonna get worse if we don't talk about an issue

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Speaker 1: like this. And I think when you see something like

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Speaker 1: this play out in the public eye, it kind of

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Speaker 1: just mirrors back what we're seeing in our own world.

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Speaker 1: So it's not about these particular famous women, it's just

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Speaker 1: very unfortunately their stories are playing out in public. So

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Speaker 1: what we're talking about here single Lizzo, who we love,

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Speaker 1: who Obviously there's been a lot of back and forth

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Speaker 1: about her in recent years, allegations from her team of

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Speaker 1: you know, different misconduct, people in the plus size community

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Speaker 1: being upset with how she markets her exercise brand Yiddi,

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Speaker 1: a lot of back and forth along with you know,

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Speaker 1: people really loving her music as always in her But

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Speaker 1: one thing about Lizzo is ever since she shot to

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Speaker 1: fame and people fell in love with her music and

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Speaker 1: her personality and everything that she creates, is that her

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Speaker 1: body has always been a huge topic of discussion, even

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Speaker 1: when it's not something that she was speaking on or

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Speaker 1: bringing up anyway. She was simply existing in a bigger

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Speaker 1: body in turing, and of course that just opens the

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Speaker 1: floodgates of comments. So recently, she has been sharing quite

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Speaker 1: a few different exercise videos, often wearing Giddy, her brand,

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Speaker 1: and talking about different things that she's doing. And one

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Speaker 1: thing about that is that, to me, that was never

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Speaker 1: surprising that she was sharing these intense exercise videos and moments,

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Speaker 1: because I think we always knew that she had that

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Speaker 1: extreme level of fitness, because she would have to. This

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Speaker 1: woman has played like two and three hour stadium tours

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Speaker 1: solo where she's the main person on stage. She's dancing

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Speaker 1: like crazy with all her backup dancers, she's playing the flute,

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Speaker 1: she's jumping around, she's singing while dancing, which we know,

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Speaker 1: not us personally, but we hear Taylor Shift and Beyonce

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Speaker 1: talk about it that you need a really extreme level

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Speaker 1: of fitness to be able to do that for hours

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Speaker 1: on stage just singing and had that level of movement.

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Speaker 2: You need to be strong, exactly.

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Speaker 1: You need to be strong, You need to be really

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Speaker 1: physically fit, you have to have a lot of control over

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Speaker 1: your breathing, all of these things, and she has been

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Speaker 1: doing that since the start of her career. So when

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Speaker 1: I see these like intense exercise videos, no matter the

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Speaker 1: shape or size of her body, and I always assume

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Speaker 1: she was doing that because that's how she performs on stage.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, recently she shared a video where she was

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Speaker 1: talking about a social media accusing her of using ozempic,

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Speaker 1: the weight loss drug, or snorting coke to lose weight.

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Speaker 1: A few days later, she she had a carousel of

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Speaker 1: photos and one of them where she's in a red robe,

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Speaker 1: and the text over the video is when you finally

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Speaker 1: get ozembic allegations after five months of weight training and

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Speaker 1: a calorie deficit, And the post was captioned ozempic or coke?

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Speaker 1: A fan? It was in like a fan asking the question.

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Speaker 2: And I remember there was also which we talked about

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Speaker 2: in the podcast South Park made that Yeah, like that

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Speaker 2: episode about a weight loss drug called Lizzo, And she

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Speaker 2: actually posted a video of herself reacting to that. So

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Speaker 2: even if you weren't a Lizo fan, it was like

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Speaker 2: made very public her weight loss.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, one hundred percent. And this is the really troubling

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Speaker 1: thing here. Have anything this woman has done, what she's released,

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Speaker 1: the TV shows, she's created, the fashion lines like whether

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Speaker 1: you like what she stands for or not. Her body

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Speaker 1: has always been people have seen it as being something

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Speaker 1: that really is up for debate, and there's always a

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Speaker 1: very kind of accus at her toned to it, which

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Speaker 1: I think can be quite different when we're talking about

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Speaker 1: different actresses or performers who have a more conventionally thin body.

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Speaker 2: Interestingly, Florence Pugh has also been an actress that has

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Speaker 2: talked about her body. She was interviewed by British Vogue

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Speaker 2: this month and the interview was quite interesting when they

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Speaker 2: mentioned her body because the interviewer, Raven Smith, wanted to

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Speaker 2: ask her about the Internet talking about her body without

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Speaker 2: actually asking her yes, So she kind of framed in

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Speaker 2: a way saying I had to ask her because this

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Speaker 2: is what the whole internet's talking about, rather than putting

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Speaker 2: the onus on herself as a direct question. Now, Florence

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Speaker 2: Peugh said, it's so hard. The Internet's a very mean place.

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Speaker 2: It's really painful to read people being nasty about my

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Speaker 2: confidence or nasty about my weight. It never feels good.

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Speaker 2: The one thing I always wanted to achieve was to

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Speaker 2: never sell someone else something that isn't the real me.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it's interesting because I can see why the interview

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Speaker 1: wanted to get that question in because I thought the

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Speaker 1: Vogue interview with Florence Pugh was very interesting, but she's

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Speaker 1: also very closed off, like she's got a real line

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Speaker 1: the sand drawn where they ask her if she's in

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Speaker 1: a relationship, she says, yes, I'll never talk about it.

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Speaker 1: They ask her about her personal life and she says, yes,

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Speaker 1: I'll keep that private. They ask her away and on

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Speaker 1: past drama, don't worry darling. She's like, I'll never speak

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Speaker 1: about that. And so there's this kind of digging to

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Speaker 1: try and get her to say something. And when they

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Speaker 1: asked her about her body image, like, no matter what

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Speaker 1: she's sent around that that was going to be the

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Speaker 1: takeout headline that everyone ran with. So I can see

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Speaker 1: why they put it in there. And it's interesting because

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Speaker 1: like just because she's a famous woman whose photograph appears everywhere, Like, yes,

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Speaker 1: her body has been ripped apart online, but as a

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Speaker 1: conventionally thin woman, I think she would agree with this,

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Speaker 1: and she has agreed with it in the past, not

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Speaker 1: to the extent that some other women's bodies have, but

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Speaker 1: something like where she wore the shared dress and you

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Speaker 1: can see her nipples, there's a big conversation about whether

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Speaker 1: you know her body was up to the standard or

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Speaker 1: whether or not she should wear a sartop, which is insane,

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Speaker 1: and people have talked about her also being in a

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Speaker 1: superhero franchise and whether her body looked like muscle or fit,

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Speaker 1: all this absolutely crazy stuff, and so she's obviously seen

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Speaker 1: that and has to respond to it. But what I

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Speaker 1: thought was interesting was not that there was debate around

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Speaker 1: these two different famous women's bodies in the same week,

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Speaker 1: because I think that's almost any given week on the Internet,

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Speaker 1: it just you know, sub to other women's names in

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Speaker 1: it'd be the same thing. Was the different ways that

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Speaker 1: people reacted to these conversations.

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Speaker 2: I think another difference that I found because I've been

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Speaker 2: a huge Lizo fan for so so long, like always

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Speaker 2: Spotify top five, Like remember that one year that everyone

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Speaker 2: just had lizards at five.

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Speaker 1: I mean that's still me. I love her music.

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Speaker 2: I think what I find the difference between talking about

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Speaker 2: Lizzo's body and Florence Peugh's body is that when I

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Speaker 2: first started listening to Lizo and following her on Instagram,

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Speaker 2: her whole brand was about loving yourself. Yeah, She's like,

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Speaker 2: love your most authentic self, love yourself, never change for anybody,

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Speaker 2: and then for women in particular. I feel like when

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Speaker 2: we say love ourselves, it means our physical self. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: want to show how we love just the way we look,

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Speaker 2: the way we are. We don't want to change for anybody.

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Speaker 2: And then she changed, So in my head I was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: so you lie, like you shouldn't love yourself, you should

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Speaker 2: change yourself, and then like love yourself. And it was

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Speaker 2: really confusing because I feel like the whole love yourself

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Speaker 2: message for so long has been so black and white,

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Speaker 2: and it put to women who want to voice this

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Speaker 2: important message into a box saying, now you can't change,

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Speaker 2: because if you change, then it seems like you're selling

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Speaker 2: a lie.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly on that. I mean, it's such a

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Speaker 1: difficult thing, isn't it, Because I know that Lizo has

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Speaker 1: said during this whole moment in time, where she's talked

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Speaker 1: about doing juice cleanses or she's talked about wanting to

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Speaker 1: change her body, she's always folded it up with saying

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Speaker 1: like I was perfect before in that size body, and

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Speaker 1: I'm perfect in this size body. But I do think

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Speaker 1: it's more kind of nuanced than that, especially because, as

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Speaker 1: we've discussed before, there isn't a lot of body diversity

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Speaker 1: for women in the public eye, whether it's actors or

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Speaker 1: musicians or models, and we're seeing less and less of that.

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Speaker 1: So when you have this tiny handful of people that

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Speaker 1: do represent different body types and you start to see

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Speaker 1: them change or you start to see them not get

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Speaker 1: work anymore, as like we've seen with some actresses, it

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Speaker 1: does hit really hard because.

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Speaker 2: It feels like they owe us something. And I don't

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Speaker 2: know where that comes from.

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying you're wrong saying that, but it's so

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Speaker 1: interesting because that is the difference between these two conversations.

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Speaker 1: Is that with Lizzo, because she exists in a bigger body,

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Speaker 1: the conversation is what does she owe us? She has

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Speaker 1: to stand for something. This kind of got your culture

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Speaker 1: like caught her out. She's using OZM pics, she's doing this,

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Speaker 1: she's doing the wrong thing, and so we're coming at

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Speaker 1: her with like you're doing, like emotional response and a

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Speaker 1: genuine question to kind of understand what she's doing, or

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Speaker 1: people are coming at her in a way that's very aggressive,

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Speaker 1: either questioning her lifestyle for promoting OBEs and promoting being

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Speaker 1: unhealthy too, things that she has not done, or questioning

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Speaker 1: that she's trying to take an easy way out or

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Speaker 1: questioning that she's trying to change her body. And then

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Speaker 1: we have Florence Pugh, whose body has also been ridiculed

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Speaker 1: and judged, but because she is a woman in a

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Speaker 1: conventionally thin body, it's a different conversation where the reaction

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Speaker 1: from everyone was like, that's ridiculous, Florence Pugh, she's gorgeous.

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Speaker 1: Why would we ever say anything about her? She's just

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Speaker 1: trying to be an actress. She just says she's trying

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Speaker 1: to be in her body in the world. Like we

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Speaker 1: go into care taker mode and we go into black

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Speaker 1: and white mode because we're like woman being attached, we

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Speaker 1: shouldn't do that. And we see this very clear distinction

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Speaker 1: with someone who's Florence Pew's size of right and wrong,

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Speaker 1: whereas Lizo, we're like, mmmm, there's gray area. But they're

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Speaker 1: just there are two women who are existing in the

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Speaker 1: public eye in their bodies. The difference is that one

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Speaker 1: is not a conventional size and one is. To me,

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Speaker 1: that's the main difference.

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Speaker 2: I think another big difference is because Lizo's taken us

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Speaker 2: on a journey with her body. Yes, like she shows

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Speaker 2: her like actor, where she shows her doing workouts, whereas

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Speaker 2: Florence Pew like doesn't show any of that. Plus she's

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Speaker 2: also never made it like her like loving herself, a

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Speaker 2: brand like that. She said, she's such a private person.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so true once you make it in a brand,

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Speaker 1: so hubly Zoe, because it's like, even if she didn't

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Speaker 1: choose to make it a brand, it would have been

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Speaker 1: I think woven in just because people and fans would

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Speaker 1: have put that on her. But you're right, she has

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Speaker 1: made a brand, and she has also attempted to like

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Speaker 1: monetize fat acceptance and self love in a way that

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Speaker 1: has financially benefited her at times.

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Speaker 2: That's very true, and also just helped so many other

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Speaker 2: women rite. And I think that's the biggest risk she took,

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Speaker 2: was opening that door to talk about her weight to

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Speaker 2: help other women. But then you can't close that door

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Speaker 2: again because then people always will always demand you to

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Speaker 2: constantly talk about and give a reason why for everything

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Speaker 2: you do.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And I think it just comes down to

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Speaker 1: this thing that we think at this point in time,

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Speaker 1: with like the studies that we have and the conversations

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Speaker 1: we've had around diversity and particularly around famous women, I

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Speaker 1: think that people feel like we're much more evolved than

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Speaker 1: we actually are. And people think that we live in

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Speaker 1: this world where we can just sort of say like

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Speaker 1: everyone's beautiful and everyone's body is amazing, but then like

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Speaker 1: the world we in doesn't reflect that. And I think

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Speaker 1: also every single person, no matter what weight or age

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Speaker 1: or race you are, everyone who lives in like our

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Speaker 1: society right now, the society you and I live in,

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Speaker 1: has a form of weight stigma embedded than them. You

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Speaker 1: just do. It's ingrained in you since birth. It's a

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Speaker 1: very hard thing to unlearn. And I think like Florence

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Speaker 1: Pew and Lizzo both have it when they talk about it,

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Speaker 1: they have weight stigma. And I think every single person

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Speaker 1: who's looking at the content around them has a level

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Speaker 1: of stigma where even if you self correct, you're still

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Speaker 1: looking at Lizo's body and thinking like it's almost like

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Speaker 1: what's a story here? Like are we back at self love?

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Speaker 1: Has she done something wrong? Or should I be protecting her?

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Speaker 1: Whereas I just think with Florence Pew, it just is

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Speaker 1: an easier conversation to have for some people because we

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Speaker 1: immediately latch onto like this idea that we think is safe,

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Speaker 1: like don't talk about her body. And the reason we

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Speaker 1: can do that is because she overall, being like a young, thin, blonde,

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Speaker 1: white woman, able bodied woman, she has the ideal like appearance,

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Speaker 1: so it's easier to kind of say, like live her alone.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And for some reason, with women, especially women celebrities,

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Speaker 2: it feels like, even if they constantly say I'm so

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Speaker 2: sick and tired of people talking about bodies, I want

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Speaker 2: them to stop, I want people to stop talking about

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Speaker 2: my body, we never listen. Yeah, but I remember the

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Speaker 2: same thing happened. Would you remember this Jonah Hill, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: where he didn't want people talk about bodies, and then

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Speaker 2: he said I didn't want people to talk about my body,

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Speaker 2: and then no one did.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. I think with I stopped and people take

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Speaker 1: that very seriously. And that was kind of different with

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Speaker 1: Joniy Hill too, because at the time I wrote a

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Speaker 1: piece about the fact that as much as we shouldn't

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Speaker 1: say anything about his body, and like male celebrities and

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Speaker 1: men in general can be subjected to the same weight

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Speaker 1: stigma that women are. At the same time, Hollywood and

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Speaker 1: the entertainment industry has made more of a place for them.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot more body diversity with men performers across

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Speaker 1: the ball than there is with women. And I also

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Speaker 1: think with Joony Hill, like sometimes he really leaned into

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Speaker 1: playing those kind of schlubby, overweight characters for comedic value.

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Speaker 1: And obviously, you know, you want to be an actor,

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Speaker 1: you take the job that you can get that you're given.

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Speaker 1: I totally understand that, but I felt like he really

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Speaker 1: kind of played into that and then was like but

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Speaker 1: then also when he lost weight, was very much like,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to be associated with that, So it

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Speaker 1: wasn't kind of there was two sides so that neither

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Speaker 1: of them were good. But you're right, people were just

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Speaker 1: like horrified that we were talking about is weight and

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Speaker 1: then we really tried to stop where going Yeah where

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Speaker 1: is Lozo's been talking about for years and Differen's like,

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Speaker 1: but that's like what's your health really like? Like it's

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Speaker 1: never going to be a conversation that ends for her.

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Speaker 2: If this conversation has brought up anything for you, There

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00:18:43,104 --> 00:18:46,624
Speaker 2: is help and support for eating disorders. Contact the Butterfly

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00:18:46,704 --> 00:18:50,344
Speaker 2: Foundations National Support line on one eight hundred ed hope

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00:18:50,704 --> 00:18:53,984
Speaker 2: or email support at the Butterfly Foundation dot org dot au.

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Speaker 2: We will pop those details in our show notes. Thank

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Speaker 2: you so much for listening to the Spill today. If

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Speaker 2: you want more content from us, please message us or

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Speaker 2: follow us or d m us or comment on our

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00:19:04,304 --> 00:19:06,904
Speaker 2: posts over on our Instagram page. We are at the

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Speaker 2: Spill podcast. A big thank you to our producer Kimberly Bradish,

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Speaker 2: with audio production by Scott Stronik. We will be back

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Speaker 2: here in your podcast speed at three pm tomorrow. Bye bye,

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Speaker 2: Love it