WEBVTT - The Response To Hugh Van Cylenberg's Open Letter 0:00:10.622 --> 0:00:13.382 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 0:00:13.822 --> 0:00:17.182 Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:17.222 --> 0:00:18.741 that this podcast is recorded on. 0:00:22.262 --> 0:00:25.982 If you have Harry sickness, you know Harry's sickness very 0:00:25.982 --> 0:00:27.501 badly because you're like. 0:00:28.622 --> 0:00:32.461 But I'm still in a hurry the exactly. I'm in 0:00:32.542 --> 0:00:34.462 much more of a hurry than people who are on time. 0:00:40.502 --> 0:00:42.342 Hello and welcome. 0:00:41.942 --> 0:00:43.822 To Mama Mia. Out loud, it's what. 0:00:43.742 --> 0:00:47.382 Women are actually talking about on Monday, the seventeenth of March. 0:00:47.582 --> 0:00:50.742 I'm Holly Waynwright, I'm mea Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens. 0:00:50.862 --> 0:00:53.662 And on the show today, two politicians walk into a 0:00:53.662 --> 0:00:56.862 podcast studio. What we learned and what happened behind the 0:00:56.902 --> 0:00:59.702 scenes when the Prime Minister and the opposition leader came 0:00:59.742 --> 0:01:02.702 into Mamma Mia to talk. Also, I don't want to 0:01:02.702 --> 0:01:05.542 alarm anyone on a Monday morning, but you probably have 0:01:05.782 --> 0:01:09.502 hurry sickness. We'll tell you what that is and why. 0:01:09.542 --> 0:01:12.741 A high profile dad's open letter to parents of neurodiverse 0:01:12.822 --> 0:01:19.101 kids has dominated conversations all weekend. But first, Jesse Stevens. 0:01:18.342 --> 0:01:21.262 In case he missed it, Jessica Mowboy had a baby 0:01:21.422 --> 0:01:23.182 months ago and she's only. 0:01:23.142 --> 0:01:24.502 Just telling us about it. 0:01:24.982 --> 0:01:27.622 In September last year, the singer announced on stage that 0:01:27.702 --> 0:01:30.262 she was pregnant, but otherwise she was very quiet about it. 0:01:30.262 --> 0:01:33.461 There wasn't a social media announcement. There wasn't a article 0:01:33.502 --> 0:01:34.582 where she announced it. 0:01:34.582 --> 0:01:36.542 It's funny. I went back in her socials and she 0:01:36.582 --> 0:01:40.342 doesn't mention it on her socials. But she was doing 0:01:40.382 --> 0:01:44.062 concerts around septem Brocktober, so I assume it was noticeable. 0:01:44.062 --> 0:01:45.302 When was the baby born? Do we know? 0:01:45.582 --> 0:01:45.662 So? 0:01:45.822 --> 0:01:48.502 The baby was born on January the thirteenth, and she 0:01:48.662 --> 0:01:54.142 welcomed baby Maya into about the name, do you think 0:01:54.182 --> 0:01:54.862 she's now louder? 0:01:55.022 --> 0:01:55.582 Obviously? 0:01:56.582 --> 0:01:58.902 She told Stella magazine over the weekend that she didn't 0:01:58.902 --> 0:02:01.262 announce me as birth publicly because she didn't want to 0:02:01.262 --> 0:02:04.062 disappoint loved ones who wanted to see her before she'd 0:02:04.062 --> 0:02:07.182 had her first vaccinations, and she also wanted to protect 0:02:07.262 --> 0:02:10.742 herself from trolls. She told the public aid that she 0:02:10.901 --> 0:02:12.542 was thinking, you know, am I going to be a 0:02:12.542 --> 0:02:14.862 good mum? And I wanted to hold space for myself 0:02:14.901 --> 0:02:17.382 to be patient and give as much love and kindness 0:02:17.382 --> 0:02:20.822 to myself as my body was changing holl love that. 0:02:21.262 --> 0:02:23.462 Do you think that this is indicative of sort of 0:02:23.502 --> 0:02:26.742 how we might be becoming more boundaried and our relationship 0:02:26.782 --> 0:02:28.142 with social media evolving? 0:02:28.382 --> 0:02:28.542 Yes? 0:02:28.742 --> 0:02:32.422 Absolutely, And I think for properly famous people like Jess Mawboy, 0:02:32.942 --> 0:02:36.702 it's an indication that she has very healthy boundaries about 0:02:36.702 --> 0:02:39.222 what her public life is and her private life is. 0:02:39.702 --> 0:02:41.942 But one of the things that's amazing about this, I 0:02:41.982 --> 0:02:44.302 think is that you're seeing it a little bit in 0:02:44.342 --> 0:02:48.222 real life with non famous people too, where they're leaving 0:02:48.302 --> 0:02:51.102 it really late to announce their pregnancies if they announce 0:02:51.142 --> 0:02:53.262 them on socials, or they don't announce them at all, 0:02:53.302 --> 0:02:54.862 and then they're just like, ohmus I've had a baby. 0:02:54.982 --> 0:02:57.702 Or maybe you're working with someone and they're like visibly 0:02:57.742 --> 0:03:00.621 pregnant but hasn't made it known, and now we've all 0:03:00.622 --> 0:03:03.462 got the memo you never ask. I feel like it's 0:03:03.502 --> 0:03:07.302 a very confident, boundaried flex almost. 0:03:07.382 --> 0:03:10.102 It's very evolved, and I'm always in all of it. 0:03:10.142 --> 0:03:13.302 When someone's like, I'm pregnant and I'm seven months, and 0:03:13.342 --> 0:03:16.822 I'm like, the restraint because the respect I have, Yeah, 0:03:16.862 --> 0:03:20.422 it means that you haven't been sharing every thought, feeling 0:03:20.582 --> 0:03:22.902 all the work my craving, all my sickness, or you 0:03:22.902 --> 0:03:23.622 haven't been doing that. 0:03:23.862 --> 0:03:25.582 Yeah, they say that privacy is going to be the 0:03:25.582 --> 0:03:27.022 new luxury, But guys, I am the top of the 0:03:27.102 --> 0:03:29.702 leaderboard on this because I didn't announce my first pregnancy 0:03:30.262 --> 0:03:30.902 for eight years. 0:03:32.022 --> 0:03:33.181 Well when you were the editor? 0:03:33.262 --> 0:03:34.982 Did you get around that? 0:03:35.062 --> 0:03:37.502 Because there was no internet and I was the editor 0:03:37.542 --> 0:03:39.622 of magazine and I just didn't mention it. 0:03:39.822 --> 0:03:41.182 How about it worked, did anyone? 0:03:41.422 --> 0:03:43.582 Oh no, they knew it worked, like people in my 0:03:43.742 --> 0:03:47.542 actual life knew. I did know. Yeah, I did tell 0:03:47.542 --> 0:03:50.382 my parents and also the father of the child, but 0:03:50.662 --> 0:03:54.062 I didn't have to And so it came as a 0:03:54.062 --> 0:03:56.182 big shock to a lot of people to realize that 0:03:56.302 --> 0:03:58.342 I was actually a parent. 0:03:59.582 --> 0:04:02.702 Because that basically says that you know at that time, 0:04:03.182 --> 0:04:06.742 who you were like in your private life didn't affect 0:04:06.902 --> 0:04:09.902 your job, as in, you don't need to know all 0:04:09.942 --> 0:04:11.742 the details of my life to know that I'm a 0:04:11.782 --> 0:04:15.902 good editor of this magazine, whereas now who we are, 0:04:16.181 --> 0:04:17.981 that's what everyone has to know. What I don't mean us, 0:04:18.062 --> 0:04:19.102 I mean I think people are. 0:04:19.181 --> 0:04:22.621 I think it was also though I was I mean, god, 0:04:22.662 --> 0:04:24.541 it was an easier time to have kids because you 0:04:24.582 --> 0:04:26.902 didn't have to have the whole world speculating on how 0:04:26.941 --> 0:04:28.622 you were parenting. I mean, even if not being a 0:04:28.662 --> 0:04:32.301 high profile person, but there's still the commentary of the world, 0:04:32.782 --> 0:04:36.101 whether it's about you individually or about parenting. But I 0:04:36.101 --> 0:04:38.262 think it was also because I wasn't ready. I was young, 0:04:38.342 --> 0:04:40.261 I was twenty four, I was out of step with 0:04:40.301 --> 0:04:43.502 all of my peers, and I think that I needed 0:04:43.541 --> 0:04:46.182 some time to process what it meant for my identity, 0:04:46.821 --> 0:04:48.541 which I think was interesting a little bit about what 0:04:48.621 --> 0:04:51.141 jess Mawboy said before the whole world processes it for you. 0:04:51.301 --> 0:04:54.741 Yeah, and she's got a skincare sun Care line coming 0:04:54.741 --> 0:04:57.061 out in the next week or two, so I think 0:04:57.101 --> 0:04:59.901 that she realized that she needed to tell a brand 0:04:59.981 --> 0:05:02.701 story about that, she needed to do something public. Yeah, 0:05:02.861 --> 0:05:04.781 probably got to tell you that I've got a baby, 0:05:04.821 --> 0:05:07.062 but I'm going to do it totally on my terms. 0:05:07.101 --> 0:05:09.021 And I'm not just going to give you the interview 0:05:09.022 --> 0:05:09.782 because I feel. 0:05:09.782 --> 0:05:11.301 And she didn't show the baby you deserve it. 0:05:11.381 --> 0:05:13.902 No, exactly right, I was five weeks pregnant and just 0:05:13.981 --> 0:05:16.222 like I should clarify, I'm carrying your life. 0:05:16.582 --> 0:05:20.342 Please have empathy. 0:05:20.301 --> 0:05:24.022 Yet I would like special exemptions from everything. I don't 0:05:24.022 --> 0:05:24.462 want to. 0:05:24.342 --> 0:05:29.261 Do mister Alban easy, although I feel I'm on Australian 0:05:29.301 --> 0:05:34.382 if I don't say albow absolutely. Peter Craig Dunton, welcome 0:05:34.381 --> 0:05:35.022 to No Filter. 0:05:35.181 --> 0:05:35.981 It's great to be here. 0:05:35.981 --> 0:05:40.181 Thank you. You know this is a forum to speak 0:05:40.222 --> 0:05:44.101 to a large cohort of Australian women. What is your 0:05:44.342 --> 0:05:45.062 pitch to them? 0:05:45.222 --> 0:05:49.621 We recognize there is more to do and my government 0:05:49.662 --> 0:05:55.581 will always be respectful and engaging. And I believe one 0:05:55.621 --> 0:06:01.181 of the key differences between my government and our opponents 0:06:02.061 --> 0:06:05.981 is whether we take gender equity seriously. 0:06:06.702 --> 0:06:08.981 Well, if you do, win, I would like to invite 0:06:08.981 --> 0:06:09.541 you to come back. 0:06:10.101 --> 0:06:10.541 Thank you. 0:06:10.621 --> 0:06:10.901 Deal. 0:06:11.262 --> 0:06:14.741 Given the ethos, the mission statement of Mamma Maya, which 0:06:14.821 --> 0:06:17.621 is to improve the world for women and girls, yes, 0:06:17.861 --> 0:06:20.421 I would like to discuss with you what you have 0:06:20.582 --> 0:06:22.302 done to that end. 0:06:22.741 --> 0:06:26.061 Firstly, an absolute commitment and it should be a conversation 0:06:26.142 --> 0:06:28.541 that continues on for the year about what we can 0:06:28.582 --> 0:06:32.261 do to make lives for women and young girls better. 0:06:32.501 --> 0:06:35.261 The voices you just heard were, of course Peter Dutton, 0:06:35.262 --> 0:06:38.741 Opposition leader and the Prime Minister Anthony Aubernezi interviewed by 0:06:38.861 --> 0:06:42.822 Kate Lanebrook on No filter. Two interviews dropped over the weekend. 0:06:42.941 --> 0:06:45.541 It may have sounded like they were all together. They 0:06:45.582 --> 0:06:48.822 actually were separate interviews, but we dropped them at the same. 0:06:48.621 --> 0:06:50.941 Time, exactly the same time. To the second to the 0:06:51.061 --> 0:06:52.101 second can't be shown. 0:06:52.142 --> 0:06:54.222 Well, friend, you had to drop one before the other 0:06:54.262 --> 0:06:57.101 because there is a sequence and a chronology in the feed. 0:06:57.181 --> 0:06:59.581 But have to press one button then another one, you 0:06:59.621 --> 0:07:00.262 can't press them. 0:07:00.262 --> 0:07:03.902 Similar were their meetings about what button was pressed first, 0:07:04.061 --> 0:07:05.261 the Dutton but Dune button. 0:07:06.421 --> 0:07:09.261 The election hasn't officially been called yet. A date in 0:07:09.381 --> 0:07:11.461 a pool was meant to be announced last weekend, but 0:07:11.502 --> 0:07:14.222 because of cyclone Alfred, it was bumped. So all that 0:07:14.262 --> 0:07:16.341 we know is that we'll be going to the polls 0:07:16.342 --> 0:07:20.261 sometime before May seventeenth. But meanwhile, as you just heard, 0:07:20.262 --> 0:07:22.582 we continue with the election campaign that you have. When 0:07:22.582 --> 0:07:26.262 you're not officially having an election campaign, politicians are shaking 0:07:26.262 --> 0:07:30.342 hands and waving at babies and heading into podcast studios, 0:07:30.381 --> 0:07:33.742 including ours. In fact, around this very table, in this 0:07:33.862 --> 0:07:37.742 very studio is the room where it happened. The US 0:07:37.821 --> 0:07:40.862 election last year was dubbed the podcast election because the 0:07:40.902 --> 0:07:43.582 biggest cut through interviews, in fact, pretty much the only 0:07:43.622 --> 0:07:46.901 cut through interviews were when Kamala Harris was on the 0:07:46.941 --> 0:07:50.062 Call Her Daddy podcast with Alex Cooper and Trump went 0:07:50.102 --> 0:07:53.021 on Joe Rogan and it looks like the same thing 0:07:53.142 --> 0:07:55.862 might be playing out here, because I mean it's a 0:07:55.902 --> 0:07:59.582 no brainer. Australia has an estimated nine point nine million 0:07:59.622 --> 0:08:03.062 women of voting age, and Mum and Maya reaches about 0:08:03.062 --> 0:08:05.982 eight point eight million of them. So Dutton is smart 0:08:06.022 --> 0:08:09.182 to accept our invitation. And it should be said he's 0:08:09.222 --> 0:08:14.142 the first most liberal leader who has since now come 0:08:14.222 --> 0:08:18.022 Turnbull in twenty sixteen. I've interviewed every PM since Mum 0:08:18.062 --> 0:08:21.742 and Mea began, with the two exceptions Tony Abbott, who 0:08:21.821 --> 0:08:25.142 was also Minister for Women and Scott Morrison, who would 0:08:25.182 --> 0:08:29.022 only do podcast interviews with men. True story. The number 0:08:29.062 --> 0:08:31.222 of times we asked how did that turn out for you? 0:08:31.302 --> 0:08:34.502 Fellas not so great? Jesse, what did you think of 0:08:34.542 --> 0:08:35.262 the interviews? 0:08:35.782 --> 0:08:40.102 I thought they were really interesting and insightful, and I 0:08:40.182 --> 0:08:43.022 know Kate lane Brook a little bit. I am an 0:08:43.262 --> 0:08:46.062 enormous fan of her work and as I was listening, 0:08:46.222 --> 0:08:50.022 I thought how fresh it was to listen to her 0:08:50.102 --> 0:08:53.662 conduct these interviews and have absolutely no idea how she votes. 0:08:54.102 --> 0:08:58.222 I don't know what her preference is. I know what 0:08:58.262 --> 0:09:00.102 her opinions are about certain things, but. 0:09:00.382 --> 0:09:01.502 Do you think that's important? 0:09:01.822 --> 0:09:05.822 Look, I think it can be. I was thinking about 0:09:05.822 --> 0:09:08.662 the US example, and I think that that's probably the 0:09:08.742 --> 0:09:11.422 way in where which the US election is going to 0:09:11.422 --> 0:09:13.182 influence Australia the most is that this will be the 0:09:13.182 --> 0:09:16.141 podcast election. And what happened there is that it was 0:09:16.182 --> 0:09:21.942 almost like these prominent podcasters who associated themselves with a 0:09:21.982 --> 0:09:25.422 particular party would take on a Trump or take on 0:09:25.542 --> 0:09:28.942 a Harris and go, hi, Hello, welcome to my audience. 0:09:29.262 --> 0:09:29.462 Go. 0:09:30.182 --> 0:09:32.182 They didn't hold them to any sort of account. 0:09:32.222 --> 0:09:34.182 They didn't really part of the campaign. 0:09:34.302 --> 0:09:36.902 They were part of the campaign. And to me there 0:09:36.902 --> 0:09:40.422 were points at which I went, is this just propaganda 0:09:40.702 --> 0:09:43.542 if you don't have And I've been kind of mulling 0:09:43.582 --> 0:09:46.222 over this, that there is the art of the political 0:09:46.262 --> 0:09:49.622 interview at the least sales the Sarah Ferguson who there's 0:09:49.662 --> 0:09:52.942 a methodology, there's a technique of sitting down with a 0:09:52.942 --> 0:09:55.342 politician and holding them to account and pushing back. And 0:09:55.382 --> 0:09:57.822 I've thought this about myself as a podcaster. I would 0:09:57.822 --> 0:10:00.382 feel ill equipped. It's so hard and I don't feel 0:10:00.422 --> 0:10:02.662 like I have the training to be able to sit 0:10:02.702 --> 0:10:06.742 there and actually push back. There's a lot of responsibility 0:10:06.782 --> 0:10:09.782 with that job. What I loved an impartiality is a 0:10:09.822 --> 0:10:10.422 key part of that. 0:10:10.502 --> 0:10:12.222 I was going to say that you say it's fresh 0:10:12.262 --> 0:10:14.302 that you don't know when you listen to Kate, but 0:10:14.342 --> 0:10:16.782 actually that's the way that all political interviews used to be. 0:10:16.862 --> 0:10:17.942 It was very important that. 0:10:17.862 --> 0:10:19.182 The journal is not on podcast. 0:10:19.542 --> 0:10:23.382 But I mean it's like until the podcast wave that 0:10:23.582 --> 0:10:26.502 was very important is the political journalist. They couldn't be 0:10:26.502 --> 0:10:28.582 a member of a party, they weren't allowed to express 0:10:28.622 --> 0:10:31.742 any opinions. In partiality was everything. But we've kind of 0:10:32.302 --> 0:10:33.822 thrown that out of the window a little bit. 0:10:33.982 --> 0:10:37.182 Yeah, and look, I think there's something really and I've 0:10:37.182 --> 0:10:39.862 seen podcasters do this, and I think it's your prerogative 0:10:39.902 --> 0:10:42.261 if you want to endorse a particular That sounds like 0:10:42.302 --> 0:10:43.982 such an American way of talking about it, because we 0:10:44.022 --> 0:10:45.662 also don't vote for the prime minister. 0:10:45.702 --> 0:10:47.022 We vote for someone now are electric. 0:10:47.142 --> 0:10:50.382 But if you think that every liberal voter is a 0:10:50.502 --> 0:10:55.382 racist traditionalist who you know hates the poor, then you're wrong. 0:10:55.662 --> 0:10:58.102 And if you think that every labor voter is a 0:10:58.262 --> 0:11:02.542 woke socialist weakling, you're also wrong. So I think it's 0:11:02.662 --> 0:11:06.302 so important to dismantle those echo chambers, especially at a 0:11:06.342 --> 0:11:10.142 time when people have this parasocial relationship with their podcast, right, Like, 0:11:10.182 --> 0:11:11.942 I listened to people and they feel like my friends, 0:11:12.582 --> 0:11:15.782 and I don't just want people telling me who to 0:11:15.862 --> 0:11:18.342 vote for. That doesn't feel like authentic democracy. So it 0:11:18.382 --> 0:11:19.622 felt really important to me. 0:11:19.742 --> 0:11:23.182 I think some people do, though, what someone to to 0:11:23.262 --> 0:11:23.662 vote for. 0:11:24.022 --> 0:11:27.742 Yeah, I don't. I think that women are smart enough 0:11:27.782 --> 0:11:31.422 to decide for themselves. And I noticed in my own 0:11:31.462 --> 0:11:35.222 behavior I listened to the candidate I agreed with Less, 0:11:35.742 --> 0:11:37.462 that was my first. So I got to choose which 0:11:37.462 --> 0:11:39.902 one I listened to first, and I went, I'm going 0:11:39.942 --> 0:11:42.862 to listen to that one because I know Less, because 0:11:42.862 --> 0:11:45.142 I know my own political sensibilities, because I know my 0:11:45.182 --> 0:11:47.582 own leanings, and I found that enlightening. 0:11:47.782 --> 0:11:51.062 The thing that's really interesting, right about what happens when 0:11:51.062 --> 0:11:53.622 you do what Mom and Mia just did and say 0:11:54.022 --> 0:11:57.662 we're not playing favorites here, We're going to give these 0:11:57.742 --> 0:12:02.222 two candidates exactly the same space treatment weight all of 0:12:02.262 --> 0:12:05.062 those things, is that you will get some pushback. Actually, 0:12:05.062 --> 0:12:07.582 what's been really impressive, I think from Mom and MEA's 0:12:07.622 --> 0:12:11.062 audience is that Obviously the endie visual candidates and the 0:12:11.102 --> 0:12:13.742 things they've said have had some pushback, but there hasn't 0:12:13.742 --> 0:12:16.302 been as much as you might imagine for Mom and 0:12:16.342 --> 0:12:18.662 Mia for doing it. Because I do think that there 0:12:18.782 --> 0:12:22.742 is fatigue with this whole don't platform that person. I 0:12:22.742 --> 0:12:24.862 don't want to hear from that person. How very dare 0:12:24.902 --> 0:12:27.542 you when it comes to this level of politics. 0:12:27.462 --> 0:12:30.382 Talk about the word platforming because these are political they 0:12:30.422 --> 0:12:32.262 are voted by the Australian people. 0:12:32.302 --> 0:12:35.222 Yeah, it's I think the platform is a ridiculous thing 0:12:35.262 --> 0:12:37.822 to say when you're talking about like the people who 0:12:37.822 --> 0:12:39.862 are going to be who are or are going to 0:12:39.862 --> 0:12:41.862 be prime ministers you need to put But what I 0:12:41.902 --> 0:12:44.222 wanted to say is so there are people who are 0:12:44.262 --> 0:12:46.862 uncomfortable with it because the way that we like it. 0:12:46.902 --> 0:12:49.582 You just express this very well, Jesse. Is a very 0:12:49.582 --> 0:12:52.102 binary view of people who disagree with me bad, people 0:12:52.142 --> 0:12:54.662 agree with me good. What if I listen to an 0:12:54.662 --> 0:12:57.142 interview with a candidate who I don't agree with and 0:12:57.182 --> 0:12:59.622 they seem like a kind of okay person, and maybe 0:12:59.622 --> 0:13:01.622 they tell a funny joke and maybe they make me 0:13:01.662 --> 0:13:04.022 feel a bit warm inside, and maybe I laugh or whatever. 0:13:04.142 --> 0:13:06.582 I'm not saying those things happen, but what if that 0:13:06.702 --> 0:13:10.022 makes us very uncomfortable because we've kind of come to 0:13:10.062 --> 0:13:12.902 this place where we think and actually, I don't think 0:13:12.902 --> 0:13:14.662 it's new. I think that I grew up in a 0:13:14.782 --> 0:13:18.742 very binary political time in Britain, and my parents are 0:13:18.782 --> 0:13:21.702 very binary politically, and they know exactly which celebrities they 0:13:22.222 --> 0:13:25.022 think voted for Margaret Thatcher, and they will never laugh 0:13:25.062 --> 0:13:26.542 at any joke they told, even if it was the 0:13:26.542 --> 0:13:31.182 funniest jokes that. But I think that it's really important 0:13:31.182 --> 0:13:35.142 to push ourselves to go if my values and my 0:13:35.302 --> 0:13:38.262 beliefs are truly my values and my beliefs, they're not 0:13:38.302 --> 0:13:40.862 going to be swung by a guy not being a 0:13:40.902 --> 0:13:45.142 devil with horns information. I don't need everybody who I 0:13:45.182 --> 0:13:48.422 don't agree with on everything to be a monster. In fact, 0:13:48.462 --> 0:13:51.062 it's much more challenging if they're not a monster. 0:13:51.302 --> 0:13:53.902 I think what's interesting as well, we were talking about 0:13:53.902 --> 0:13:58.222 the parasocial relationship and how this used to happen to 0:13:58.502 --> 0:14:02.622 and still does happen to journalists, impartial journalists ABC journalists 0:14:02.662 --> 0:14:07.062 for example, who don't showcase their political views and it's 0:14:07.102 --> 0:14:10.102 in their job description that they have to be completely partial. 0:14:10.822 --> 0:14:14.062 They still copy it. You're bias this way, you're biased 0:14:14.062 --> 0:14:14.382 that way. 0:14:14.422 --> 0:14:14.942 A lot is. 0:14:14.942 --> 0:14:18.982 Projected onto them. But with the parasocial relationship with podcasters, 0:14:19.022 --> 0:14:22.542 which is different to journalists. You have to look at 0:14:22.542 --> 0:14:25.822 what happened with Abbe Chatfield when she interviewed Anthony Abernesi 0:14:25.942 --> 0:14:28.222 and she said, I'm interviewing you because I want to 0:14:28.262 --> 0:14:32.982 help you get reelected, and her audience rioted because they said, 0:14:33.062 --> 0:14:34.142 how very dare you. 0:14:34.142 --> 0:14:37.502 Platform some totally and I think that it's someone's. 0:14:37.262 --> 0:14:39.862 So right wing, they said, and that you should just 0:14:39.942 --> 0:14:44.062 speak to Adam Bant. And so what you can find, 0:14:44.102 --> 0:14:46.942 and what we have found is that when people have 0:14:46.982 --> 0:14:49.222 a parasocial relationship with you and you're the friends in 0:14:49.262 --> 0:14:52.102 their ears, and you don't agree with them about something 0:14:52.142 --> 0:14:55.822 that they feel very strongly about, they can really feel 0:14:55.822 --> 0:14:58.302 betrayed and really turn on you. And I think that's 0:14:58.342 --> 0:15:01.822 what happened with those people in Abby's audience. And it's interesting. 0:15:01.862 --> 0:15:04.742 Over the weekend she did some live show with Adam Bant, 0:15:04.742 --> 0:15:07.662 the Greens leader, and they were like very much together, 0:15:07.702 --> 0:15:09.902 and she's kind of out campaigning for him, which of 0:15:09.942 --> 0:15:12.902 course her prerogative. That makes it look quite fraught. 0:15:13.102 --> 0:15:14.822 And that's one way of doing it, and as you say, 0:15:14.982 --> 0:15:18.022 a way that I actually respect. But I think that 0:15:18.262 --> 0:15:23.302 in a political landscape that is increasingly divisive and you know, 0:15:23.382 --> 0:15:29.382 demonizes the other side, then it's refreshing to have both 0:15:29.422 --> 0:15:32.102 of them. And you know, we have this way of 0:15:32.142 --> 0:15:35.502 talking about politics sometimes which is and I've been guilty 0:15:35.542 --> 0:15:38.182 of this, saying, you know what, I've got to educate 0:15:38.262 --> 0:15:41.382 uncle John because Uncle John is not understanding the way 0:15:41.422 --> 0:15:44.782 things are, and you know what, on climate change every 0:15:44.782 --> 0:15:47.542 now and then I try and educate Uncle John. But 0:15:47.622 --> 0:15:49.582 uncle John knows a few things that Jesse doesn't know, 0:15:50.102 --> 0:15:53.902 and we know from all the political analysis, and Uncle John. 0:15:53.782 --> 0:15:55.302 Might just have different priorities to Jesse. 0:15:55.502 --> 0:15:57.262 Yeah, he's lived a different life, he's come from a 0:15:57.262 --> 0:15:59.462 different context, he's worked in a different industry, he has 0:15:59.462 --> 0:16:03.022 a different postcode. All things that we know inform our politics. 0:16:03.422 --> 0:16:05.862 You know what, you can think what you like about politicians, 0:16:06.302 --> 0:16:08.582 but I don't like that we would make assumptions about 0:16:08.582 --> 0:16:10.462 the people who vote for them. Because if it was 0:16:10.502 --> 0:16:12.222 as simple as rich people vote like this and poor 0:16:12.222 --> 0:16:14.742 people vote like this, white people vote like this, and 0:16:15.182 --> 0:16:17.102 people of color vote like this, then maybe, but it's 0:16:17.142 --> 0:16:18.462 not that simple, really. 0:16:18.302 --> 0:16:21.782 Complicationd That's true, although it's definitely part of it. A 0:16:21.822 --> 0:16:23.422 lot of people say, we all like to think we're 0:16:23.462 --> 0:16:26.142 deeply original thinkers, but very often if you tell someone 0:16:26.222 --> 0:16:28.702 your post code, your background, you're like, they can tell you. 0:16:28.742 --> 0:16:30.622 You're going to go, oh yeah, and they said a voice. 0:16:30.782 --> 0:16:34.182 We are very much a victim of our demographics. But 0:16:34.662 --> 0:16:36.942 the interviews themselves and what we learn in them, I 0:16:36.942 --> 0:16:39.422 want to talk about that. I really enjoyed both of 0:16:39.462 --> 0:16:41.822 them a lot. Kate was great, I thought, and this 0:16:41.942 --> 0:16:44.062 is a tricky thing to walk mere talking about this 0:16:44.102 --> 0:16:47.302 a little bit because this is not Lee sales. And 0:16:47.342 --> 0:16:49.142 I don't mean that in a way to any way. 0:16:49.302 --> 0:16:51.462 Jenna great, Kate. She's not trying to be That's not 0:16:51.462 --> 0:16:53.382 what No Filter is. That's all we're here for. But 0:16:53.462 --> 0:16:55.942 there was policy talk. There was personal talk, so it 0:16:56.022 --> 0:16:57.942 was like there was policy talk, but then there was 0:16:57.982 --> 0:17:00.622 the wedding stuff. There was like the one with Dutton 0:17:00.742 --> 0:17:03.782 was very interesting, probably because we know least about him 0:17:03.782 --> 0:17:06.942 in a way. Anthony Albanizi has been on No Filter before. 0:17:07.022 --> 0:17:10.581 His episode with Mia a few years ago was fascinating 0:17:10.581 --> 0:17:13.222 about his background and his parents, But that story is 0:17:13.302 --> 0:17:17.821 now very well told, so that's not so surprising, whereas Dunton, 0:17:18.422 --> 0:17:20.182 I feel, for a lot of people is a bit 0:17:20.182 --> 0:17:22.462 of an enigma, and you might have very strong feelings 0:17:22.462 --> 0:17:25.542 about him based on what you do know. But I 0:17:25.621 --> 0:17:27.542 found that really interesting and what they were both very 0:17:27.581 --> 0:17:29.302 good illustrations of, and it touches a little bit. And 0:17:29.341 --> 0:17:32.181 what was just talking about was about how your life 0:17:32.222 --> 0:17:36.901 experiences just absolutely imprint on you your values pretty early on. 0:17:36.982 --> 0:17:39.661 Because Dutton talked a lot about his years as a 0:17:39.661 --> 0:17:43.861 police officer and about being exposed to the sides of 0:17:44.542 --> 0:17:46.622 our society. I guess that a lot of people get 0:17:46.661 --> 0:17:50.462 to ignore unless they're part of it themselves, domestic violence, 0:17:50.661 --> 0:17:55.982 about criminality, about drug addiction, and that has without question 0:17:56.542 --> 0:17:59.662 colored the way that he sees the world enormously. Now 0:17:59.661 --> 0:18:01.341 you can think what you want about that, you can 0:18:01.381 --> 0:18:03.221 think what you want about whether or not that's a 0:18:03.341 --> 0:18:04.821 good or a healthy way to see the world. But 0:18:04.861 --> 0:18:07.742 there's no question and Albo and again this is such 0:18:07.742 --> 0:18:10.542 a well known story now, but his story of coming 0:18:10.661 --> 0:18:12.782 up where he came up in social housing with the 0:18:12.821 --> 0:18:17.181 single mum who was unwell, has entirely colored his worldview 0:18:17.381 --> 0:18:20.542 and it's just so interesting to be reminded of that, 0:18:20.621 --> 0:18:23.101 because it's really true. I found them both really interesting. 0:18:23.222 --> 0:18:25.701 I think they both went in with different jobs to do. 0:18:25.901 --> 0:18:31.701 I think Dutton went into this interview nervous because people 0:18:31.742 --> 0:18:34.101 don't know who he is, and so I think he 0:18:34.262 --> 0:18:37.341 was a little bit more tentative, and his job was 0:18:37.422 --> 0:18:41.222 to make people think that he's more human than perhaps 0:18:41.262 --> 0:18:44.422 they perceive, because, as he pointed out, in a lot 0:18:44.422 --> 0:18:47.141 of the roles he's had in the past, politically he's 0:18:47.182 --> 0:18:50.542 delivering bad news or he's got to be delivering unpopular 0:18:50.542 --> 0:18:53.142 opinions often, and he was trying to say, look, there's 0:18:53.182 --> 0:18:55.901 more to me than that. I'm not this two dimensional 0:18:56.141 --> 0:18:59.622 caricature albow. On the other hand, the job that he 0:18:59.702 --> 0:19:02.182 had to do was to be I am a serious 0:19:02.222 --> 0:19:04.981 person and I can be strong, and so he was 0:19:05.101 --> 0:19:08.782 very much with the facts, the policies, the numbers, which 0:19:08.821 --> 0:19:10.662 is also easy to do when you are the Prime 0:19:10.661 --> 0:19:11.821 minister and you've got. 0:19:11.742 --> 0:19:12.941 Good ability in a record. 0:19:13.101 --> 0:19:15.621 Yeah, but also you've been able to do things over 0:19:15.661 --> 0:19:18.422 the last four years, which of course Peter Dutton's never 0:19:18.462 --> 0:19:20.702 had the chance. So I think it's interesting. I think 0:19:20.742 --> 0:19:23.302 they both succeeded at what they had to do in 0:19:23.381 --> 0:19:24.181 very different ways. 0:19:24.262 --> 0:19:26.581 And you said this Mia that Dutton had to soften 0:19:26.621 --> 0:19:29.542 his image and Albanize almost had to harden it. Yeap, 0:19:29.782 --> 0:19:32.621 he had to show himself as strong and maybe there 0:19:32.661 --> 0:19:35.021 was some vulnerability in Dutton that he felt he had 0:19:35.061 --> 0:19:36.782 to show. And I think that that's probably a bit 0:19:36.782 --> 0:19:39.461 of a blueprint for what we might see going forward 0:19:39.502 --> 0:19:44.302 in the campaign. And just on politics and podcasting, Australian 0:19:44.502 --> 0:19:48.101 podcast listening it leads the world. It's Australians listen to 0:19:48.141 --> 0:19:50.421 more podcasts and pretty much anywhere else in the world. 0:19:50.742 --> 0:19:52.142 I think we're going to be hearing a lot from 0:19:52.182 --> 0:19:55.502 these two men between now and April. In a moment, 0:19:56.101 --> 0:19:58.381 are you constantly in a rush? Because there's a new 0:19:58.381 --> 0:20:00.221 word for that, and apparently it is not good for 0:20:00.262 --> 0:20:02.742 your health? And still to come the reaction to Hugh 0:20:02.782 --> 0:20:06.782 van Kilenberg's viral open letter to the parents of autistic children? 0:20:10.901 --> 0:20:14.021 Are you always rushing around even when there's no reason 0:20:14.302 --> 0:20:17.221 really to be in a hurry? Do you often feel impatient, 0:20:17.462 --> 0:20:22.061 irritated over small delays, constantly multitasking and resistant to any 0:20:22.061 --> 0:20:25.942 sort of dead time you might be suffering from hurry sickness. 0:20:26.462 --> 0:20:28.861 In an article on Mum and Maya this week, Juna 0:20:29.141 --> 0:20:32.861 Zoo reflects on her own excessive sense of time urgency. 0:20:33.581 --> 0:20:36.542 Apparently it's something type A that means sort of high 0:20:36.621 --> 0:20:40.542 achieving and competitive people can be prone to, and according 0:20:40.542 --> 0:20:44.861 to psychologists doctor Maria Elena Lukedi's over time constant running 0:20:44.861 --> 0:20:48.101 to multiple deadlines can put the release of adrenaline cortisol 0:20:48.222 --> 0:20:51.821 on automatic pilot, meaning that even on the weekend, when 0:20:51.821 --> 0:20:54.702 you have nowhere to be, you've got absolutely no plans, 0:20:55.022 --> 0:20:58.701 your body continues to release those chemicals and it is 0:20:58.782 --> 0:21:01.861 not good for you. Being in a state of constant 0:21:02.061 --> 0:21:05.981 urgency is to be perpetually stressed. It can lead to 0:21:06.222 --> 0:21:09.381 high blood pressure or a weakened immune system. The field 0:21:09.422 --> 0:21:12.101 of medicine is actually identifying a number of ways that 0:21:12.182 --> 0:21:14.461 being in a high state of cortisol can lead to 0:21:14.621 --> 0:21:17.061 multiple health concerns over the course of a life. 0:21:17.141 --> 0:21:19.141 Well, now, not only do I feel busy and stressed, 0:21:19.141 --> 0:21:21.382 I also feel worried and anxious. 0:21:21.502 --> 0:21:26.381 If you have hurry sickness, hurry sickness very badly because 0:21:26.422 --> 0:21:26.941 you're late. 0:21:27.782 --> 0:21:31.381 But I'm still in a hurry. The morequence exactly, I 0:21:31.502 --> 0:21:33.181 mean much more of a hurry than people who are 0:21:33.222 --> 0:21:36.141 on time because I'm constantly late. 0:21:36.302 --> 0:21:37.621 Well, I'm going to tell you in a moment, how 0:21:37.621 --> 0:21:40.061 are you're going to fix that? But Holly, do you 0:21:40.101 --> 0:21:40.902 relate to hurry. 0:21:40.661 --> 0:21:43.581 Sickness one hundred percent? I have horry sickness one hundred percent. 0:21:43.661 --> 0:21:46.661 I never leave enough time to get places in some 0:21:46.821 --> 0:21:49.861 areas of my life more than others. But I always 0:21:49.901 --> 0:21:52.981 feel like I'm behind the eight ball. And it was 0:21:53.022 --> 0:21:55.461 really interesting when you were just talking about weekends and 0:21:55.542 --> 0:21:57.701 little lights started going off for me because one of 0:21:57.702 --> 0:22:01.502 the things that I notice on weekends is I'll start 0:22:01.942 --> 0:22:04.542 like in my mind I've portioned out the day in 0:22:04.661 --> 0:22:06.821 like hours, like I've got this much time to do this, 0:22:06.861 --> 0:22:08.022 and if I do that, and then I do this, 0:22:08.381 --> 0:22:11.302 and then I have to talk to myself about no, 0:22:11.381 --> 0:22:14.181 you don't like it's okay, you don't have to. It 0:22:14.222 --> 0:22:16.821 will be all right if you don't. I remember in 0:22:16.861 --> 0:22:18.621 our old office, Well it will on the weekend when 0:22:18.661 --> 0:22:21.142 I don't really have it, like, say, the actual things 0:22:21.182 --> 0:22:23.061 I have to do that weekend is drop my daughter 0:22:23.101 --> 0:22:25.221 at this place and maybe clean the house so we 0:22:25.222 --> 0:22:29.702 don't all get whatever. But my constant hurriness has meant 0:22:29.702 --> 0:22:31.982 that I've portioned it up into all these urgent things. 0:22:32.022 --> 0:22:34.582 Remember in the old office when we had the floorboards, 0:22:34.821 --> 0:22:39.022 and the soundtrack to that office was Holly, Holly, even 0:22:39.262 --> 0:22:41.461 you powerble. You have seen Holly. 0:22:41.821 --> 0:22:42.661 She doesn't ramble. 0:22:43.302 --> 0:22:45.942 I've never seen her walk slowly. 0:22:46.061 --> 0:22:47.982 She's on stage half. 0:22:47.982 --> 0:22:49.861 Yeah, maybe, but she's always half running. 0:22:50.022 --> 0:22:52.581 You amble a little bit, I do amble. I know 0:22:52.661 --> 0:22:55.221 exactly why this is the case. I know what causes 0:22:55.262 --> 0:22:58.421 harry sickness. It is because nothing in our world is 0:22:58.542 --> 0:23:02.901 finite anymore. So everything used to have ends. So you 0:23:02.901 --> 0:23:05.022 would read a newspaper, you would get to the end 0:23:05.061 --> 0:23:06.901 of that newspaper and you would go, okay, I know 0:23:06.982 --> 0:23:10.582 the news for today. You would listen to a radio 0:23:10.782 --> 0:23:13.942 news bulletin, you would read a magazine, you would come 0:23:13.982 --> 0:23:16.061 to the end of that. You would do a day 0:23:16.101 --> 0:23:18.622 of work, and then you would go home. Things would end. 0:23:19.222 --> 0:23:23.821 But now, because of infinite scroll, you could literally mimic 0:23:23.861 --> 0:23:26.902 the experience of reading a magazine or the news twenty 0:23:26.942 --> 0:23:29.221 four seven without doing anything else. You never get to 0:23:29.262 --> 0:23:30.941 the end of the news, you never get to the 0:23:31.022 --> 0:23:32.542 end of anything. You never get to the end of 0:23:32.581 --> 0:23:34.022 work because you can take it home with you. 0:23:34.262 --> 0:23:37.621 In many cases, different theory as to what hurry sickness 0:23:37.661 --> 0:23:40.901 is about, because I'm addicted to this feeling, and I 0:23:40.942 --> 0:23:45.381 think it's because to hurry means that someone needs you. Yeah, 0:23:45.422 --> 0:23:49.262 it is so status validating. There is status, and I've 0:23:49.502 --> 0:23:53.581 found this going from work to then a very different 0:23:53.621 --> 0:23:55.942 pace of the day when I was on maternity leave, 0:23:56.422 --> 0:23:59.542 and that was very discombobulating, like there is sort of 0:23:59.542 --> 0:24:01.542 your baby needs an apple change and all that kind of stuff, 0:24:01.581 --> 0:24:04.901 but for nowhere externally. To need you at a certain 0:24:05.022 --> 0:24:10.341 time makes you feel like you're worthless something, And I 0:24:10.381 --> 0:24:12.661 think that that is why as well. The shifting of 0:24:12.702 --> 0:24:15.942 the gears on holidays can be really hard. I find 0:24:15.982 --> 0:24:19.141 myself in the car sometimes and heart rate rises, breath 0:24:19.182 --> 0:24:21.582 gets shallow, and I go, oh, rushing, rushing, rushing. It's 0:24:21.581 --> 0:24:23.701 on this road when I'm on my way home, like 0:24:23.821 --> 0:24:26.542 every day, and then I go, you're on your way 0:24:26.542 --> 0:24:29.821 home from work, it's fine, Like you don't need no bit. 0:24:29.861 --> 0:24:32.901 The reason why is because you're wanting to get home 0:24:32.982 --> 0:24:35.942 to see your child. Yes, And in the morning you're 0:24:36.022 --> 0:24:38.821 racing because you feel like you're late for work. So 0:24:39.262 --> 0:24:42.262 I think, particularly for mothers with young children or cares. 0:24:43.022 --> 0:24:46.901 You are always stealing time from someone or something, and 0:24:46.942 --> 0:24:49.942 you always have that sense of if I don't get 0:24:49.942 --> 0:24:52.222 home quicker, I'm stealing time from my child. If I 0:24:52.262 --> 0:24:54.341 don't get to work sooner, I'm stealing time from my 0:24:54.462 --> 0:24:55.662 work or whatever you're obligation. 0:24:55.821 --> 0:24:58.821 Then I think we get ourselves stuck in those patterns 0:24:58.861 --> 0:25:02.502 because that, without doubt, sort of the five six years 0:25:02.502 --> 0:25:05.182 that I had little kids and a busy job were 0:25:05.222 --> 0:25:07.221 the busiest of my life, right, they are for everybody 0:25:07.262 --> 0:25:08.821 when they've got kids who need them that much, and 0:25:08.901 --> 0:25:11.821 the schedule that are required that got to be here 0:25:11.861 --> 0:25:13.621 at this time, drop off there, pick up, put the 0:25:13.782 --> 0:25:17.222 rib and meeting and then this is a very high 0:25:17.302 --> 0:25:19.981 level of rushing, very very high level of rushing. But 0:25:20.141 --> 0:25:22.302 like the world moves on in times change and maybe 0:25:22.341 --> 0:25:25.262 you've shifted to a place where actually your kid needs 0:25:25.262 --> 0:25:27.941 a few hours to themselves on the weekend or whatever 0:25:27.982 --> 0:25:29.621 it is, and you don't have to be in charge 0:25:29.621 --> 0:25:32.022 of every moment. But it's really hard, I think, particularly 0:25:32.061 --> 0:25:34.901 for women, but not only to kick yourself out of 0:25:34.982 --> 0:25:36.142 hurry sickness. 0:25:36.182 --> 0:25:38.302 Did you say that, replace it with other things? 0:25:38.581 --> 0:25:40.821 Yeah? And just on that I think that when it's 0:25:40.821 --> 0:25:43.902 not thrust upon us, we thrust it upon ourselves on purpose. 0:25:44.141 --> 0:25:46.182 I do that, and I see people do that in retirement, 0:25:46.222 --> 0:25:48.462 and I see I have felt it on my own 0:25:48.462 --> 0:25:50.661 and holidays. Sometimes I'm rushing even more when I'm not 0:25:50.661 --> 0:25:52.581 at work because I'm just like, this is making me 0:25:52.621 --> 0:25:54.781 feel important. Okay, so you can fix it? 0:25:54.901 --> 0:25:55.381 Do you want to know? 0:25:55.542 --> 0:25:55.742 Yes? 0:25:55.942 --> 0:25:56.982 Just to overcome it all right? 0:25:57.141 --> 0:26:00.342 Is one of them going to be bloody meditating? Yeah? 0:26:00.422 --> 0:26:01.462 Mindfulness, holliod. 0:26:01.942 --> 0:26:04.142 What you have to do is called and I liked 0:26:04.182 --> 0:26:07.181 this expression, it's called dropping the anchor. And what you 0:26:07.222 --> 0:26:09.181 do is you focus on the here and now. I 0:26:09.222 --> 0:26:11.581 do this in the car sometimes and I go, you're 0:26:11.581 --> 0:26:14.702 in the car, just be in the moment, because when 0:26:14.742 --> 0:26:17.542 you have hurry sickness, you're never in the moment. You're 0:26:17.542 --> 0:26:18.981 always in the next thing and the next thing, the 0:26:18.982 --> 0:26:20.702 next thing and the next thing, and that's so bad 0:26:20.782 --> 0:26:24.461 for our brains. So mindfulness is really important. Their second 0:26:24.462 --> 0:26:28.061 thing is ask yourself, am I really in a hurry? 0:26:28.742 --> 0:26:30.622 And if I am in a hurry, is it that important? 0:26:30.861 --> 0:26:33.902 Yes? For me? For me? Is that the other when 0:26:33.942 --> 0:26:36.861 you're on your own business, there's always stuff like you 0:26:36.982 --> 0:26:40.222 never are finished. All yeah, like you're never finished. Do 0:26:40.262 --> 0:26:43.101 you know he meditates, Peter Dutton. I know, I was 0:26:43.141 --> 0:26:45.421 going to say I made a note. Kate said, I 0:26:45.502 --> 0:26:47.942 was really I'm really surprised to learn that about you, Peter, 0:26:48.022 --> 0:26:49.542 and he goes, yeah, well, I don't know why people 0:26:49.581 --> 0:26:52.302 are so surprised to hear that. He says, exercising in 0:26:52.341 --> 0:26:55.821 the morning, but also meditation is really important for him. 0:26:56.182 --> 0:26:59.461 The third thing is rewrite your to do lists. So 0:26:59.581 --> 0:27:01.461 this is about I actually heard them talking about this 0:27:01.502 --> 0:27:03.981 on BIZ recently, which I found quite helpful. You have 0:27:04.022 --> 0:27:07.542 to clarify what's urgent, and if you start every day, 0:27:07.702 --> 0:27:10.741 this is a message to myself twenty eight things on 0:27:10.782 --> 0:27:12.861 your to do list which you're not going to achieve. 0:27:13.341 --> 0:27:15.221 You're not only going to feel like a failure by 0:27:15.262 --> 0:27:16.861 the end of the day, but every minute will be 0:27:16.901 --> 0:27:19.542 defined by a sense of urgency. Because I also find 0:27:19.581 --> 0:27:22.662 that with those lists everything feels equally as urgent when 0:27:22.702 --> 0:27:25.022 it's not. Some of them are quite little things that 0:27:25.061 --> 0:27:26.502 could go on a different list. 0:27:26.581 --> 0:27:29.941 What do they say, we confuse urgent with important, So 0:27:30.182 --> 0:27:33.621 urgent is just the newest thing, right, yeah, but important 0:27:34.581 --> 0:27:37.982 things that often get bumped down the leaderboard of tasks. 0:27:37.542 --> 0:27:39.542 And you're better off to go what are the three 0:27:40.022 --> 0:27:42.221 urgent things today? Like, what are the three things I 0:27:42.262 --> 0:27:44.502 need to do? And then put them on the list 0:27:44.621 --> 0:27:46.741 and then kind of work out maybe every day you 0:27:46.782 --> 0:27:49.581 do one semi non urgent thing or something rather than 0:27:49.621 --> 0:27:51.702 treating everything with the same level of urgency. 0:27:51.982 --> 0:27:54.941 You know, there's a divide in the hurriness between the 0:27:54.982 --> 0:27:58.141 city and the non city. This is you'll have noticed 0:27:58.182 --> 0:27:59.941 this if you ever when you leave the city and 0:27:59.982 --> 0:28:01.701 you go to a small town and you order a 0:28:01.702 --> 0:28:04.262 coffee and after five peryeashlight, where's my fucking coffee? 0:28:04.302 --> 0:28:05.022 And then you get. 0:28:04.982 --> 0:28:07.222 Yes like blah blah, and the traffickers when people make 0:28:07.302 --> 0:28:09.701 jokes about that, being like, oh, you're on such in 0:28:09.742 --> 0:28:13.542 such time. But of course it isn't true massive generalization. 0:28:13.581 --> 0:28:15.181 The people who don't live in cities have got all 0:28:15.222 --> 0:28:17.502 the time in the world's stand around chatting. That's not true. 0:28:17.901 --> 0:28:22.542 But there is definitely something to the contagious nature of 0:28:22.661 --> 0:28:25.542 constant busy and hoiness that you have when you're around 0:28:25.581 --> 0:28:27.341 a whole lot of other people who've got it too, 0:28:27.821 --> 0:28:29.462 so that when you are in the car you're always 0:28:29.462 --> 0:28:31.581 like got to get my car, one car in front, 0:28:31.661 --> 0:28:33.542 got to get my car. Or you're in the queue 0:28:33.542 --> 0:28:35.581 at the shop and there are four people ahead of you, 0:28:35.621 --> 0:28:37.502 and you're like, whereas when you live somewhere with a 0:28:37.502 --> 0:28:41.102 smaller population and less of that around you all the time, 0:28:41.582 --> 0:28:44.862 it can, in theory, I'm working on it, infuse you 0:28:45.382 --> 0:28:48.742 with a slightly slower like, yeah, it's okay if that 0:28:48.782 --> 0:28:51.022 car goes in front of me, like there's going to 0:28:51.062 --> 0:28:55.142 be more road. You know, where's the tiny violin for 0:28:55.222 --> 0:28:58.062 the fact that our jobs just got harder these past 0:28:58.102 --> 0:29:01.502 few days. The King of England has got a podcast, 0:29:02.262 --> 0:29:06.022 Michelle Obama has a new podcast, and Duchess Meg of 0:29:06.062 --> 0:29:07.862 Sussex has got a new podcast. 0:29:07.942 --> 0:29:09.382 Yeah, isn't she doing lady startup? 0:29:09.382 --> 0:29:11.942 To she is? This is particularly aimed at me. I've 0:29:11.942 --> 0:29:13.142 got to get me as take on this in a 0:29:13.182 --> 0:29:15.382 second quickly, because I just want to say, for fuck's sake, 0:29:15.422 --> 0:29:18.702 everybody just leave it to the professionals. We don't need 0:29:18.702 --> 0:29:21.941 this level of competition. The King's podcast is actually a 0:29:21.982 --> 0:29:25.142 special Apple Music show about his favorite song bangers, all 0:29:25.182 --> 0:29:25.382 of them. 0:29:25.422 --> 0:29:25.782 Of course. 0:29:26.022 --> 0:29:28.342 Michelle is hosting a podcast with her big brother. It's 0:29:28.342 --> 0:29:30.702 called Imo in my opinion, it's. 0:29:30.661 --> 0:29:34.022 Very disconcerting looking at the video promo videos I've seen 0:29:34.102 --> 0:29:36.862 for her and her brother, because her brother has her face. Yeah, 0:29:36.982 --> 0:29:40.302 but in a bald man's body. Yep, it's very disconcerting. 0:29:40.382 --> 0:29:43.102 And they say that their podcast will leave you laughing, reflecting, 0:29:43.142 --> 0:29:45.542 and feeling more prepared to tackle life challenges, and I 0:29:45.542 --> 0:29:48.262 say that's what I does, so back off. Which and 0:29:48.342 --> 0:29:52.342 Megan's news show is called Confessions of a Female Founder 0:29:52.502 --> 0:29:54.902 and Mia, I'm expecting you to be Meg's first guest. 0:29:55.142 --> 0:29:57.502 Yes, do you know? This news dropped the other day 0:29:57.542 --> 0:30:00.302 and before nine am I had half a dozen a 0:30:00.342 --> 0:30:04.181 dozen texts dms, people saying you need to be on 0:30:04.222 --> 0:30:09.142 this podcast And I'm like, quick, I don't know, yes, 0:30:09.262 --> 0:30:11.421 you can, like how does one pitch oneself? But also 0:30:12.661 --> 0:30:15.622 I think so what it is is she's interviewing female founders. 0:30:15.661 --> 0:30:17.902 Actually think this is a good idea. She's interviewing female 0:30:17.982 --> 0:30:20.862 founders about how to start a business with the idea 0:30:20.862 --> 0:30:23.342 that she's starting her business and she wants some tips 0:30:23.382 --> 0:30:26.181 and tricks. Okay, it's not an original idea, but it's 0:30:26.222 --> 0:30:28.342 a good idea. Yeah, I think it's interesting. 0:30:28.822 --> 0:30:30.902 Late since she's already launched her business. 0:30:30.902 --> 0:30:33.302 Well it's not going that well, it's on. 0:30:33.222 --> 0:30:37.782 All ships rise, sinking ships rise. Is this tide that's 0:30:37.902 --> 0:30:38.942 beautifully said Jesse. 0:30:39.822 --> 0:30:43.221 You mangled that. But yes, that's why we shouldn't be threatened, 0:30:43.262 --> 0:30:46.662 because the success of the King of England's podcast. 0:30:46.182 --> 0:30:48.421 Will only lift our boat. 0:30:50.102 --> 0:30:54.062 Wealth Man after the break, why Hugh van Kylenberg's later 0:30:54.142 --> 0:30:56.461 had me sobbing into my phone on Friday morning, and 0:30:56.542 --> 0:30:58.702 everyone else's many opinions about it. 0:30:59.742 --> 0:31:02.421 Every Tuesday and Thursday, we drop new segments of Mum 0:31:02.502 --> 0:31:04.542 and Me Are Out Loud just for Mumma Me as 0:31:04.542 --> 0:31:07.102 subscribers follow the link in the show notes to get 0:31:07.102 --> 0:31:09.422 your daily dose of out Loud and a big thank 0:31:09.462 --> 0:31:11.902 you thank you to everyone who has already subscribed. 0:31:22.422 --> 0:31:24.702 Three years ago, one of our kids was diagnosed autistic. 0:31:25.902 --> 0:31:28.982 We haven't talked about it publicly yet because we needed 0:31:29.022 --> 0:31:31.181 time to process it and quite frankly, all our focus 0:31:31.222 --> 0:31:35.102 needed to be on supporting and loving our child. I 0:31:35.182 --> 0:31:38.421 never once thought I'd know such heartache. This is the 0:31:38.462 --> 0:31:41.262 hardest thing I've ever known. I'm sure you will feel 0:31:41.302 --> 0:31:44.701 the same. Most people will not understand this yet, but 0:31:44.742 --> 0:31:46.782 the pain of being a parent to an autistic child 0:31:47.222 --> 0:31:53.622 is not the child, it's the world. The pain is 0:31:53.661 --> 0:31:58.622 seeing your child standing on the sidelines, confused, distressed, and 0:31:58.702 --> 0:32:01.542 left out while the other kids instinctively understand the rules 0:32:02.102 --> 0:32:06.142 and the social norms. It's watching the world overwhelm them 0:32:06.382 --> 0:32:09.782 and then holding them through yet another meltdown. I don't 0:32:09.782 --> 0:32:12.862 want to feel this way. No, they're feeling a deep 0:32:12.902 --> 0:32:15.902 sense of shame, but their body and mind is overwhelmed 0:32:15.942 --> 0:32:18.302 and out of control, and there was nothing you can 0:32:18.342 --> 0:32:23.181 do except be there. It's the quiet grief of unspoken words, 0:32:23.382 --> 0:32:25.622 of watching them struggle to express things that come so 0:32:25.661 --> 0:32:28.461 easily to others. That's the way people look at you 0:32:28.502 --> 0:32:31.582 in public when they're crying on the floor or smashing 0:32:31.582 --> 0:32:35.661 themselves against the wall, strangers assuming they're badly behaved, instead 0:32:35.702 --> 0:32:39.181 of overstimulated, exhausted, drowning in a world that refuses to 0:32:39.182 --> 0:32:42.862 slow down for them. And however hard it is for me, 0:32:43.262 --> 0:32:44.902 I know they're doing it so much tougher. 0:32:45.302 --> 0:32:47.822 I don't want to be another person crying on the internet. Right, So, 0:32:47.862 --> 0:32:49.702 I've written a sensible thing I was going to say, 0:32:49.742 --> 0:32:51.822 but even just listening to that grab again just makes 0:32:51.862 --> 0:32:54.822 me want to cry. On Friday, I opened my phone 0:32:54.862 --> 0:32:57.181 and watched that, and I wasn't alone. What you just 0:32:57.262 --> 0:33:00.701 heard was the host of the Imperfect podcast and founder 0:33:00.702 --> 0:33:04.062 of the Resilience Project, Hugh Van Kylenberg, reading an open 0:33:04.142 --> 0:33:06.421 letter on his podcast. But that was a video that 0:33:06.542 --> 0:33:09.502 was on social media to parents of kids with autism, 0:33:10.302 --> 0:33:13.181 and my reaction to it, along with thousands and thousands 0:33:13.222 --> 0:33:16.862 of others, was a bit of a jagged, snotty exhale. 0:33:18.182 --> 0:33:21.661 There's been an overwhelming response to Hugh's ladder. It's gone viral. 0:33:22.222 --> 0:33:24.981 The majority of it has been positive from parents in 0:33:25.022 --> 0:33:29.941 similar positions saying thank you for articulating our experience, for saying, yes, 0:33:30.062 --> 0:33:33.421 it is incredibly difficult watching the world react to your child, 0:33:33.942 --> 0:33:38.661 sometimes with confusion and judgment and cruelty. It is stressful. 0:33:38.742 --> 0:33:42.902 It's exhausting learning how to be their best support, how 0:33:42.982 --> 0:33:45.382 to be their advocate and their protector as well as 0:33:45.382 --> 0:33:49.582 their cheerleader. And sometimes they're punching back, both figuratively and literally. 0:33:50.742 --> 0:33:54.062 And then there's been some pushback from those who resent 0:33:54.222 --> 0:33:58.062 any implication that neurotypical parents should be centered in a 0:33:58.102 --> 0:34:02.302 conversation about the neurodiverse, and also from those who feel 0:34:02.342 --> 0:34:05.262 like expressing the complexity of his feelings about parenting an 0:34:05.262 --> 0:34:08.942 autistic kid. In doing that, Hugh might be adding to 0:34:09.022 --> 0:34:14.221 negative perceptions that exist around neurodiverse people in general. The 0:34:14.302 --> 0:34:17.422 fact that before sharing what was actually a very personal letter, 0:34:17.542 --> 0:34:20.261 Hugh made sure to let people know that he had 0:34:20.302 --> 0:34:24.022 consulted with both autistic people and parents of autistic kids. 0:34:24.022 --> 0:34:28.382 He named Checked Grace Tame, Sarah Hayden, David Hobbs, Claire Willis, 0:34:28.382 --> 0:34:31.781 and Sam Cavanaugh of people who had helped him in 0:34:31.862 --> 0:34:35.462 preparing his very personal statement, And of course he also 0:34:35.462 --> 0:34:39.102 thanked his wife Penny for they shared something so personal 0:34:39.142 --> 0:34:42.542 but kept boundaries in places to not identify their child 0:34:43.342 --> 0:34:46.022 and to be as cautious as possible, I think, to 0:34:46.062 --> 0:34:50.142 make sure they weren't being seen as owning this whole discussion. 0:34:50.422 --> 0:34:51.781 And as I said, I don't want to be another 0:34:51.822 --> 0:34:54.381 person crying on the internet, but as someone who's walked 0:34:54.382 --> 0:34:56.102 in those shoes and still does, I want to say 0:34:56.102 --> 0:34:59.142 that I acknowledge all those complexities. But I want to 0:34:59.181 --> 0:35:02.542 just really strongly assert that Hugh and other parents, because 0:35:02.542 --> 0:35:05.142 he certainly isn't the first or the only who talk 0:35:05.181 --> 0:35:07.862 about this experience, are not trying to be a definitive 0:35:07.942 --> 0:35:10.782 voice about autism. They're not trying to own a narrative 0:35:10.862 --> 0:35:14.301 about disability or trying to claim that in some kind 0:35:14.382 --> 0:35:17.022 of suffering olympics they have it harder than other parents 0:35:17.062 --> 0:35:20.622 who are dealing with other really complicated issues or illnesses 0:35:20.701 --> 0:35:24.142 or disabilities. They're just speaking a truth about a very 0:35:24.422 --> 0:35:28.662 specific experience of being the parent of a neurodivergent child. 0:35:28.741 --> 0:35:31.982 And my reaction, as well as thousands of other people 0:35:32.062 --> 0:35:34.342 to tell you just how right he got it, because 0:35:34.862 --> 0:35:39.142 it is painful and stressful, and it's exhausting, and those 0:35:39.221 --> 0:35:42.142 things is who articulated, do not mean that it isn't 0:35:42.221 --> 0:35:46.062 also an extraordinary privilege as all parenting is, and a 0:35:46.181 --> 0:35:49.741 joy as all parenting is, and nobody picks themselves up 0:35:49.741 --> 0:35:51.422 and gets on with it more than a parent with 0:35:51.462 --> 0:35:54.181 a kid who needs them right. But not being allowed 0:35:54.221 --> 0:35:57.942 to say those hard parts out loud help nobody, in 0:35:58.022 --> 0:36:01.342 my opinion, and only add to the stress and pain 0:36:01.422 --> 0:36:05.901 and anxiety that can actually backfire on kids often. Jesse, 0:36:06.502 --> 0:36:08.662 do you think that one of the reasons that video 0:36:08.781 --> 0:36:12.022 got such an annoy almost response is that Hugh, as 0:36:12.022 --> 0:36:15.102 well as being very articulate and honest and vulnerable, in 0:36:15.142 --> 0:36:18.062 that is also a father rather than a mother, and 0:36:18.102 --> 0:36:20.661 that almost contributes to the impact. 0:36:21.181 --> 0:36:25.301 I would ordinarily say that I think that women cop 0:36:25.822 --> 0:36:28.261 more shit on the Internet than men do as a 0:36:28.382 --> 0:36:31.102 general point, but I actually don't think so. I think 0:36:31.142 --> 0:36:35.301 that how eloquent he was and insightful and vulnerable about 0:36:35.342 --> 0:36:38.661 this specific experience, I don't think it mattered whether he 0:36:38.741 --> 0:36:40.782 was a father or a mother. I think there's something 0:36:40.781 --> 0:36:42.741 to be said for the time of year that he 0:36:42.781 --> 0:36:46.462 wrote this letter. It's March, a new school year has 0:36:46.582 --> 0:36:50.062 meant a time of great change for kids with autism. 0:36:50.862 --> 0:36:53.701 Often can be really, really hard, and I think that 0:36:53.781 --> 0:36:56.062 there are a lot of parents feeling this, and so 0:36:56.422 --> 0:36:58.382 that's why it struck a particular chord. 0:36:59.142 --> 0:37:00.062 I also think. 0:37:00.062 --> 0:37:02.582 People might have just heard the first five or ten seconds, 0:37:03.062 --> 0:37:05.821 or seeing criticism and thought that Hugh was talking about 0:37:05.822 --> 0:37:07.862 the grief of having a child with autism full stop. 0:37:07.862 --> 0:37:10.462 That's actually not what he was saying. What he was 0:37:10.462 --> 0:37:14.622 saying is a truth that I remember my grandmother talking about, 0:37:14.902 --> 0:37:16.861 you know, when she was raising a child with an 0:37:16.862 --> 0:37:20.102 intellectual disability, which is different, but it's the pain of 0:37:20.142 --> 0:37:24.142 watching how the world treats that child. And my grand 0:37:24.221 --> 0:37:26.781 told this story of she raised her daughter and then 0:37:26.822 --> 0:37:29.342 her grandson with an intellectual disability, and sitting on a train. 0:37:30.102 --> 0:37:33.221 Simon was quite young at the time, and these schoolboys 0:37:33.382 --> 0:37:35.102 mocked him, and they did this thing with their mouth 0:37:35.102 --> 0:37:38.701 where they were mocking how he spoke, and she could 0:37:38.741 --> 0:37:42.261 see that Simon knew what was happening. That was the pain. 0:37:42.701 --> 0:37:46.221 The pain was going. I am feeling my child's pain. 0:37:47.062 --> 0:37:49.502 And as a parent, I think what people want more 0:37:49.542 --> 0:37:52.582 than anything is to see the world fall in love 0:37:53.261 --> 0:37:55.901 with your child and for the world to see them. 0:37:55.902 --> 0:37:57.221 It is one of the greatest. 0:37:56.902 --> 0:37:58.782 Joys to see them the same way you see. 0:37:58.582 --> 0:38:00.102 To see them the same way you see them. And 0:38:00.181 --> 0:38:03.062 my brother, who is a early childhood educator and he 0:38:03.102 --> 0:38:07.102 works with kids with specific needs, says that the look 0:38:07.142 --> 0:38:10.741 in a parent's face when you see their child, their 0:38:10.822 --> 0:38:14.901 child who has autism and maybe there for and their 0:38:14.942 --> 0:38:19.542 nonverbal and their behavior is punished in certain circumstances, When 0:38:19.582 --> 0:38:25.221 their parents see you connect with them and love them, 0:38:26.022 --> 0:38:29.222 that is one of their greatest joys. And that doesn't 0:38:29.221 --> 0:38:32.022 happen enough. And for you to say, if all you 0:38:32.062 --> 0:38:33.422 get out of this is that when you're in the 0:38:33.422 --> 0:38:35.261 shopping center on the weekend and you see a child 0:38:35.342 --> 0:38:37.301 having a tantrum, or you see a child reacting in 0:38:37.342 --> 0:38:39.622 a way that you have an opinion about, you have 0:38:39.902 --> 0:38:43.102 absolutely no idea, and to treat that child and that 0:38:43.221 --> 0:38:44.221 parent with compassion. 0:38:44.902 --> 0:38:47.781 Like to me, that was the takeaway, and that is 0:38:47.822 --> 0:38:52.102 what I took away. You know, I think that the 0:38:52.142 --> 0:38:54.462 way we learn about other people and the way that 0:38:54.902 --> 0:38:59.102 we become empathetic is by hearing other people's stories and 0:38:59.102 --> 0:39:04.622 by other people voicing their experiences. And to me, any 0:39:04.982 --> 0:39:10.741 attempt or criticism of so someone's right to do that 0:39:10.982 --> 0:39:13.982 or the way that they spoke their truth, and I 0:39:13.982 --> 0:39:17.221 know we've spoken about how their truth can be a 0:39:17.221 --> 0:39:21.502 bit of a cliche, but like their experience, this idea 0:39:21.582 --> 0:39:24.382 that there's only one way that you are allowed, you know, 0:39:24.462 --> 0:39:26.941 it's like it's a real policing or a real controlling 0:39:27.142 --> 0:39:31.702 of the narrative around I've noticed, particularly around disability, where 0:39:32.701 --> 0:39:36.702 any diversion from that path of that it is a gift, 0:39:36.741 --> 0:39:39.501 It is a superpower. We only stay positive, we only 0:39:39.542 --> 0:39:42.342 talk about the good stuff. You get a lot of 0:39:42.382 --> 0:39:45.261 blowback if you dare whether you're a person who is 0:39:45.342 --> 0:39:50.181 experiencing that neurodiversity or one of their cares. There is 0:39:50.221 --> 0:39:52.542 a lot of pressure and a lot of pressure to 0:39:52.582 --> 0:39:55.261 stay silent and not speak about your experience, and I 0:39:55.382 --> 0:39:59.742 just don't see why speaking about your experience takes anything 0:39:59.781 --> 0:40:02.701 away from the experience of others. I think that we 0:40:02.822 --> 0:40:08.221 need to hear from all aspects of the experience around 0:40:08.741 --> 0:40:10.701 everything in life. You know, we were just talking about 0:40:10.741 --> 0:40:13.822 the importance of hearing from people on a different political 0:40:13.862 --> 0:40:16.862 side to you and getting empathy into them. This idea 0:40:16.902 --> 0:40:20.261 that there can only be one voice is maddening to me, 0:40:20.462 --> 0:40:24.502 and I feel like I've seen this happen to parents 0:40:24.542 --> 0:40:27.861 before when they've spoken about their experience of parenting a 0:40:27.942 --> 0:40:30.821 child with a disability, and they have been shamed and 0:40:30.942 --> 0:40:36.341 silenced and accused of harming other children with disabilities. I 0:40:36.422 --> 0:40:39.221 was attacked when I spoke about having ADHD and how 0:40:39.261 --> 0:40:41.022 I didn't think it was a superpower and I wish 0:40:41.062 --> 0:40:42.902 I could have given it back, And there were a 0:40:42.942 --> 0:40:44.821 lot of people were positive, but there was a very 0:40:44.902 --> 0:40:49.662 vocal aspect of the neurodiverse community who was very angry 0:40:49.701 --> 0:40:51.861 with me and said that I shouldn't say it and 0:40:52.382 --> 0:40:56.062 trying to police my speech. And I just think I 0:40:56.062 --> 0:40:58.622 think it was a gift what you shared, and it 0:40:58.661 --> 0:41:02.181 will change the way I look at kids and parents. 0:41:02.221 --> 0:41:05.741 Because I don't have an autistic child, and there's not 0:41:05.781 --> 0:41:09.022 one in my immediate day to day life, I wouldn't 0:41:09.062 --> 0:41:10.862 necessarily recognize those signs. 0:41:10.902 --> 0:41:13.421 Yeah. I also think though, that it's interesting you say 0:41:13.462 --> 0:41:17.501 that because this is just this experience is so widespread. 0:41:17.701 --> 0:41:21.062 This is in of my friends that have kids. This 0:41:21.181 --> 0:41:24.102 is a you know, a really significant portion of parents 0:41:24.142 --> 0:41:26.062 that I know, And if you sit down at a 0:41:26.102 --> 0:41:29.582 table with parents, this conversation will come up. And to 0:41:29.622 --> 0:41:32.782 treat it with this, I saw a comment about radical 0:41:32.822 --> 0:41:36.142 acceptance and positivity and how learning that their child had 0:41:36.142 --> 0:41:39.341 this was their greatest gift. And I respect and I'm 0:41:39.422 --> 0:41:42.102 really happy for that family. But I think that when 0:41:42.142 --> 0:41:45.341 you layer on how you're meant to feel. 0:41:45.342 --> 0:41:46.582 And become toxic positive. 0:41:46.622 --> 0:41:51.382 Yeah, but I understand the complexity of it because I 0:41:51.462 --> 0:41:54.542 talked to me are often about ADHD and one of 0:41:54.582 --> 0:41:56.221 the things you often say to me and this, and 0:41:56.342 --> 0:41:59.422 experts have said this to me, and every professional I've 0:41:59.462 --> 0:42:01.822 ever seen they'll say, you know, one of the biggest 0:42:01.942 --> 0:42:04.022 issues for a lot of kids who grow up with 0:42:04.062 --> 0:42:07.421 the Neuer diversity is shame, right, to be seen that 0:42:07.542 --> 0:42:10.701 their neurodiversity is a problem for other people. It makes 0:42:10.741 --> 0:42:13.622 other people's lives hard, right, And the reason this is 0:42:13.741 --> 0:42:17.022 very complex is it does make other people's lives hard. 0:42:17.382 --> 0:42:21.142 Like you said before, Jesse, that all parents want is 0:42:21.181 --> 0:42:24.582 for everybody to see how beautiful their kids are. That's true, 0:42:25.342 --> 0:42:28.661 and your kid is your number one priority. But also 0:42:28.982 --> 0:42:32.341 parents are people. Were just humans, like ordinary humans, with 0:42:32.422 --> 0:42:37.582 finite resources, finite amount of energy, finite amounts of patience, patience, 0:42:37.622 --> 0:42:40.781 and also finite amounts of knowledge about this stuff. The 0:42:40.942 --> 0:42:44.301 average parent who has given a diagnosis for their kid 0:42:45.022 --> 0:42:48.261 is not walking around, living and breathing what autism means, 0:42:48.261 --> 0:42:51.022 what ADHD means, so they have to learn it is 0:42:51.102 --> 0:42:54.221 difficult for them. It's okay for a parent. I think 0:42:54.261 --> 0:42:56.662 it needs to be okay for a parent to say 0:42:57.382 --> 0:43:01.221 this is exhausting. I am so stressed, and I am 0:43:01.342 --> 0:43:04.302 so lonely, and I am so whatever, without being told 0:43:05.062 --> 0:43:09.661 that they are being negative. However, the problem is I 0:43:09.701 --> 0:43:13.062 don't want your kids and other kids with these issues 0:43:13.062 --> 0:43:16.701 to feel like they are making their parents, teachers, care 0:43:16.781 --> 0:43:20.821 as friends, lives hard. So it is a really complicated thing, 0:43:20.902 --> 0:43:24.341 and I really respect and understand that, and I think 0:43:24.342 --> 0:43:26.102 that you've already said this mere but the answer is 0:43:26.142 --> 0:43:29.021 lots of different voices and nobody claiming you know, it's 0:43:29.062 --> 0:43:31.462 true that someone like you and someone I mean like me, 0:43:31.542 --> 0:43:33.781 I guess we have microphones in front of us and 0:43:33.862 --> 0:43:38.142 have platforms and audiences and so it's like, well, that 0:43:38.261 --> 0:43:41.022 experience will get lifted. But I think that this is 0:43:41.062 --> 0:43:43.742 a very specific experience that, as you said, Jesse, affects 0:43:43.741 --> 0:43:46.902 a lot of people. But we're just humans, and I 0:43:46.942 --> 0:43:51.381 think sometimes you're allowed to say this is really fucking difficult. 0:43:52.741 --> 0:43:55.222 Thank you out louders for being here with us today 0:43:55.382 --> 0:43:57.661 as always, and to our fabulous team for putting this 0:43:57.701 --> 0:43:59.982 show together. We're going to be back in your ears tomorrow. 0:44:00.022 --> 0:44:00.902 Bye. 0:44:02.022 --> 0:44:04.502 Shout out to any Mum and Me as subscribers listening. 0:44:04.781 --> 0:44:06.901 If you love the show and you want to support us, 0:44:07.181 --> 0:44:09.502 subscribing to Mum and Me I is the very best 0:44:09.741 --> 0:44:12.582 way to do so. There's a link in the episode description.