Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 3: If you have Harry sickness, you know Harry's sickness very
Speaker 3: badly because you're like.
Speaker 1: But I'm still in a hurry the exactly. I'm in
Speaker 1: much more of a hurry than people who are on time.
Speaker 2: Hello and welcome.
Speaker 1: To Mama Mia. Out loud, it's what.
Speaker 2: Women are actually talking about on Monday, the seventeenth of March.
Speaker 3: I'm Holly Waynwright, I'm mea Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 2: And on the show today, two politicians walk into a
Speaker 2: podcast studio. What we learned and what happened behind the
Speaker 2: scenes when the Prime Minister and the opposition leader came
Speaker 2: into Mamma Mia to talk. Also, I don't want to
Speaker 2: alarm anyone on a Monday morning, but you probably have
Speaker 2: hurry sickness. We'll tell you what that is and why.
Speaker 2: A high profile dad's open letter to parents of neurodiverse
Speaker 2: kids has dominated conversations all weekend. But first, Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 3: In case he missed it, Jessica Mowboy had a baby
Speaker 3: months ago and she's only.
Speaker 1: Just telling us about it.
Speaker 3: In September last year, the singer announced on stage that
Speaker 3: she was pregnant, but otherwise she was very quiet about it.
Speaker 3: There wasn't a social media announcement. There wasn't a article
Speaker 3: where she announced it.
Speaker 1: It's funny. I went back in her socials and she
Speaker 1: doesn't mention it on her socials. But she was doing
Speaker 1: concerts around septem Brocktober, so I assume it was noticeable.
Speaker 1: When was the baby born? Do we know?
Speaker 4: So?
Speaker 3: The baby was born on January the thirteenth, and she
Speaker 3: welcomed baby Maya into about the name, do you think
Speaker 3: she's now louder?
Speaker 1: Obviously?
Speaker 3: She told Stella magazine over the weekend that she didn't
Speaker 3: announce me as birth publicly because she didn't want to
Speaker 3: disappoint loved ones who wanted to see her before she'd
Speaker 3: had her first vaccinations, and she also wanted to protect
Speaker 3: herself from trolls. She told the public aid that she
Speaker 3: was thinking, you know, am I going to be a
Speaker 3: good mum? And I wanted to hold space for myself
Speaker 3: to be patient and give as much love and kindness
Speaker 3: to myself as my body was changing holl love that.
Speaker 3: Do you think that this is indicative of sort of
Speaker 3: how we might be becoming more boundaried and our relationship
Speaker 3: with social media evolving?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I think for properly famous people like Jess Mawboy,
Speaker 2: it's an indication that she has very healthy boundaries about
Speaker 2: what her public life is and her private life is.
Speaker 2: But one of the things that's amazing about this, I
Speaker 2: think is that you're seeing it a little bit in
Speaker 2: real life with non famous people too, where they're leaving
Speaker 2: it really late to announce their pregnancies if they announce
Speaker 2: them on socials, or they don't announce them at all,
Speaker 2: and then they're just like, ohmus I've had a baby.
Speaker 2: Or maybe you're working with someone and they're like visibly
Speaker 2: pregnant but hasn't made it known, and now we've all
Speaker 2: got the memo you never ask. I feel like it's
Speaker 2: a very confident, boundaried flex almost.
Speaker 3: It's very evolved, and I'm always in all of it.
Speaker 3: When someone's like, I'm pregnant and I'm seven months, and
Speaker 3: I'm like, the restraint because the respect I have, Yeah,
Speaker 3: it means that you haven't been sharing every thought, feeling
Speaker 3: all the work my craving, all my sickness, or you
Speaker 3: haven't been doing that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they say that privacy is going to be the
Speaker 1: new luxury, But guys, I am the top of the
Speaker 1: leaderboard on this because I didn't announce my first pregnancy
Speaker 1: for eight years.
Speaker 2: Well when you were the editor?
Speaker 3: Did you get around that?
Speaker 1: Because there was no internet and I was the editor
Speaker 1: of magazine and I just didn't mention it.
Speaker 3: How about it worked, did anyone?
Speaker 1: Oh no, they knew it worked, like people in my
Speaker 1: actual life knew. I did know. Yeah, I did tell
Speaker 1: my parents and also the father of the child, but
Speaker 1: I didn't have to And so it came as a
Speaker 1: big shock to a lot of people to realize that
Speaker 1: I was actually a parent.
Speaker 2: Because that basically says that you know at that time,
Speaker 2: who you were like in your private life didn't affect
Speaker 2: your job, as in, you don't need to know all
Speaker 2: the details of my life to know that I'm a
Speaker 2: good editor of this magazine, whereas now who we are,
Speaker 2: that's what everyone has to know. What I don't mean us,
Speaker 2: I mean I think people are.
Speaker 1: I think it was also though I was I mean, god,
Speaker 1: it was an easier time to have kids because you
Speaker 1: didn't have to have the whole world speculating on how
Speaker 1: you were parenting. I mean, even if not being a
Speaker 1: high profile person, but there's still the commentary of the world,
Speaker 1: whether it's about you individually or about parenting. But I
Speaker 1: think it was also because I wasn't ready. I was young,
Speaker 1: I was twenty four, I was out of step with
Speaker 1: all of my peers, and I think that I needed
Speaker 1: some time to process what it meant for my identity,
Speaker 1: which I think was interesting a little bit about what
Speaker 1: jess Mawboy said before the whole world processes it for you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and she's got a skincare sun Care line coming
Speaker 3: out in the next week or two, so I think
Speaker 3: that she realized that she needed to tell a brand
Speaker 3: story about that, she needed to do something public. Yeah,
Speaker 3: probably got to tell you that I've got a baby,
Speaker 3: but I'm going to do it totally on my terms.
Speaker 3: And I'm not just going to give you the interview
Speaker 3: because I feel.
Speaker 1: And she didn't show the baby you deserve it.
Speaker 3: No, exactly right, I was five weeks pregnant and just
Speaker 3: like I should clarify, I'm carrying your life.
Speaker 1: Please have empathy.
Speaker 2: Yet I would like special exemptions from everything. I don't
Speaker 2: want to.
Speaker 5: Do mister Alban easy, although I feel I'm on Australian
Speaker 5: if I don't say albow absolutely. Peter Craig Dunton, welcome
Speaker 5: to No Filter.
Speaker 4: It's great to be here.
Speaker 5: Thank you. You know this is a forum to speak
Speaker 5: to a large cohort of Australian women. What is your
Speaker 5: pitch to them?
Speaker 6: We recognize there is more to do and my government
Speaker 6: will always be respectful and engaging. And I believe one
Speaker 6: of the key differences between my government and our opponents
Speaker 6: is whether we take gender equity seriously.
Speaker 5: Well, if you do, win, I would like to invite
Speaker 5: you to come back.
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 2: Deal.
Speaker 5: Given the ethos, the mission statement of Mamma Maya, which
Speaker 5: is to improve the world for women and girls, yes,
Speaker 5: I would like to discuss with you what you have
Speaker 5: done to that end.
Speaker 6: Firstly, an absolute commitment and it should be a conversation
Speaker 6: that continues on for the year about what we can
Speaker 6: do to make lives for women and young girls better.
Speaker 1: The voices you just heard were, of course Peter Dutton,
Speaker 1: Opposition leader and the Prime Minister Anthony Aubernezi interviewed by
Speaker 1: Kate Lanebrook on No filter. Two interviews dropped over the weekend.
Speaker 1: It may have sounded like they were all together. They
Speaker 1: actually were separate interviews, but we dropped them at the same.
Speaker 3: Time, exactly the same time. To the second to the
Speaker 3: second can't be shown.
Speaker 1: Well, friend, you had to drop one before the other
Speaker 1: because there is a sequence and a chronology in the feed.
Speaker 2: But have to press one button then another one, you
Speaker 2: can't press them.
Speaker 3: Similar were their meetings about what button was pressed first,
Speaker 3: the Dutton but Dune button.
Speaker 1: The election hasn't officially been called yet. A date in
Speaker 1: a pool was meant to be announced last weekend, but
Speaker 1: because of cyclone Alfred, it was bumped. So all that
Speaker 1: we know is that we'll be going to the polls
Speaker 1: sometime before May seventeenth. But meanwhile, as you just heard,
Speaker 1: we continue with the election campaign that you have. When
Speaker 1: you're not officially having an election campaign, politicians are shaking
Speaker 1: hands and waving at babies and heading into podcast studios,
Speaker 1: including ours. In fact, around this very table, in this
Speaker 1: very studio is the room where it happened. The US
Speaker 1: election last year was dubbed the podcast election because the
Speaker 1: biggest cut through interviews, in fact, pretty much the only
Speaker 1: cut through interviews were when Kamala Harris was on the
Speaker 1: Call Her Daddy podcast with Alex Cooper and Trump went
Speaker 1: on Joe Rogan and it looks like the same thing
Speaker 1: might be playing out here, because I mean it's a
Speaker 1: no brainer. Australia has an estimated nine point nine million
Speaker 1: women of voting age, and Mum and Maya reaches about
Speaker 1: eight point eight million of them. So Dutton is smart
Speaker 1: to accept our invitation. And it should be said he's
Speaker 1: the first most liberal leader who has since now come
Speaker 1: Turnbull in twenty sixteen. I've interviewed every PM since Mum
Speaker 1: and Mea began, with the two exceptions Tony Abbott, who
Speaker 1: was also Minister for Women and Scott Morrison, who would
Speaker 1: only do podcast interviews with men. True story. The number
Speaker 1: of times we asked how did that turn out for you?
Speaker 1: Fellas not so great? Jesse, what did you think of
Speaker 1: the interviews?
Speaker 3: I thought they were really interesting and insightful, and I
Speaker 3: know Kate lane Brook a little bit. I am an
Speaker 3: enormous fan of her work and as I was listening,
Speaker 3: I thought how fresh it was to listen to her
Speaker 3: conduct these interviews and have absolutely no idea how she votes.
Speaker 3: I don't know what her preference is. I know what
Speaker 3: her opinions are about certain things, but.
Speaker 1: Do you think that's important?
Speaker 3: Look, I think it can be. I was thinking about
Speaker 3: the US example, and I think that that's probably the
Speaker 3: way in where which the US election is going to
Speaker 3: influence Australia the most is that this will be the
Speaker 3: podcast election. And what happened there is that it was
Speaker 3: almost like these prominent podcasters who associated themselves with a
Speaker 3: particular party would take on a Trump or take on
Speaker 3: a Harris and go, hi, Hello, welcome to my audience.
Speaker 2: Go.
Speaker 3: They didn't hold them to any sort of account.
Speaker 1: They didn't really part of the campaign.
Speaker 3: They were part of the campaign. And to me there
Speaker 3: were points at which I went, is this just propaganda
Speaker 3: if you don't have And I've been kind of mulling
Speaker 3: over this, that there is the art of the political
Speaker 3: interview at the least sales the Sarah Ferguson who there's
Speaker 3: a methodology, there's a technique of sitting down with a
Speaker 3: politician and holding them to account and pushing back. And
Speaker 3: I've thought this about myself as a podcaster. I would
Speaker 3: feel ill equipped. It's so hard and I don't feel
Speaker 3: like I have the training to be able to sit
Speaker 3: there and actually push back. There's a lot of responsibility
Speaker 3: with that job. What I loved an impartiality is a
Speaker 3: key part of that.
Speaker 2: I was going to say that you say it's fresh
Speaker 2: that you don't know when you listen to Kate, but
Speaker 2: actually that's the way that all political interviews used to be.
Speaker 2: It was very important that.
Speaker 1: The journal is not on podcast.
Speaker 2: But I mean it's like until the podcast wave that
Speaker 2: was very important is the political journalist. They couldn't be
Speaker 2: a member of a party, they weren't allowed to express
Speaker 2: any opinions. In partiality was everything. But we've kind of
Speaker 2: thrown that out of the window a little bit.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and look, I think there's something really and I've
Speaker 3: seen podcasters do this, and I think it's your prerogative
Speaker 3: if you want to endorse a particular That sounds like
Speaker 3: such an American way of talking about it, because we
Speaker 3: also don't vote for the prime minister.
Speaker 1: We vote for someone now are electric.
Speaker 3: But if you think that every liberal voter is a
Speaker 3: racist traditionalist who you know hates the poor, then you're wrong.
Speaker 3: And if you think that every labor voter is a
Speaker 3: woke socialist weakling, you're also wrong. So I think it's
Speaker 3: so important to dismantle those echo chambers, especially at a
Speaker 3: time when people have this parasocial relationship with their podcast, right, Like,
Speaker 3: I listened to people and they feel like my friends,
Speaker 3: and I don't just want people telling me who to
Speaker 3: vote for. That doesn't feel like authentic democracy. So it
Speaker 3: felt really important to me.
Speaker 1: I think some people do, though, what someone to to
Speaker 1: vote for.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't. I think that women are smart enough
Speaker 3: to decide for themselves. And I noticed in my own
Speaker 3: behavior I listened to the candidate I agreed with Less,
Speaker 3: that was my first. So I got to choose which
Speaker 3: one I listened to first, and I went, I'm going
Speaker 3: to listen to that one because I know Less, because
Speaker 3: I know my own political sensibilities, because I know my
Speaker 3: own leanings, and I found that enlightening.
Speaker 2: The thing that's really interesting, right about what happens when
Speaker 2: you do what Mom and Mia just did and say
Speaker 2: we're not playing favorites here, We're going to give these
Speaker 2: two candidates exactly the same space treatment weight all of
Speaker 2: those things, is that you will get some pushback. Actually,
Speaker 2: what's been really impressive, I think from Mom and MEA's
Speaker 2: audience is that Obviously the endie visual candidates and the
Speaker 2: things they've said have had some pushback, but there hasn't
Speaker 2: been as much as you might imagine for Mom and
Speaker 2: Mia for doing it. Because I do think that there
Speaker 2: is fatigue with this whole don't platform that person. I
Speaker 2: don't want to hear from that person. How very dare
Speaker 2: you when it comes to this level of politics.
Speaker 3: Talk about the word platforming because these are political they
Speaker 3: are voted by the Australian people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I think the platform is a ridiculous thing
Speaker 2: to say when you're talking about like the people who
Speaker 2: are going to be who are or are going to
Speaker 2: be prime ministers you need to put But what I
Speaker 2: wanted to say is so there are people who are
Speaker 2: uncomfortable with it because the way that we like it.
Speaker 2: You just express this very well, Jesse. Is a very
Speaker 2: binary view of people who disagree with me bad, people
Speaker 2: agree with me good. What if I listen to an
Speaker 2: interview with a candidate who I don't agree with and
Speaker 2: they seem like a kind of okay person, and maybe
Speaker 2: they tell a funny joke and maybe they make me
Speaker 2: feel a bit warm inside, and maybe I laugh or whatever.
Speaker 2: I'm not saying those things happen, but what if that
Speaker 2: makes us very uncomfortable because we've kind of come to
Speaker 2: this place where we think and actually, I don't think
Speaker 2: it's new. I think that I grew up in a
Speaker 2: very binary political time in Britain, and my parents are
Speaker 2: very binary politically, and they know exactly which celebrities they
Speaker 2: think voted for Margaret Thatcher, and they will never laugh
Speaker 2: at any joke they told, even if it was the
Speaker 2: funniest jokes that. But I think that it's really important
Speaker 2: to push ourselves to go if my values and my
Speaker 2: beliefs are truly my values and my beliefs, they're not
Speaker 2: going to be swung by a guy not being a
Speaker 2: devil with horns information. I don't need everybody who I
Speaker 2: don't agree with on everything to be a monster. In fact,
Speaker 2: it's much more challenging if they're not a monster.
Speaker 1: I think what's interesting as well, we were talking about
Speaker 1: the parasocial relationship and how this used to happen to
Speaker 1: and still does happen to journalists, impartial journalists ABC journalists
Speaker 1: for example, who don't showcase their political views and it's
Speaker 1: in their job description that they have to be completely partial.
Speaker 1: They still copy it. You're bias this way, you're biased
Speaker 1: that way.
Speaker 2: A lot is.
Speaker 1: Projected onto them. But with the parasocial relationship with podcasters,
Speaker 1: which is different to journalists. You have to look at
Speaker 1: what happened with Abbe Chatfield when she interviewed Anthony Abernesi
Speaker 1: and she said, I'm interviewing you because I want to
Speaker 1: help you get reelected, and her audience rioted because they said,
Speaker 1: how very dare you.
Speaker 3: Platform some totally and I think that it's someone's.
Speaker 1: So right wing, they said, and that you should just
Speaker 1: speak to Adam Bant. And so what you can find,
Speaker 1: and what we have found is that when people have
Speaker 1: a parasocial relationship with you and you're the friends in
Speaker 1: their ears, and you don't agree with them about something
Speaker 1: that they feel very strongly about, they can really feel
Speaker 1: betrayed and really turn on you. And I think that's
Speaker 1: what happened with those people in Abby's audience. And it's interesting.
Speaker 1: Over the weekend she did some live show with Adam Bant,
Speaker 1: the Greens leader, and they were like very much together,
Speaker 1: and she's kind of out campaigning for him, which of
Speaker 1: course her prerogative. That makes it look quite fraught.
Speaker 3: And that's one way of doing it, and as you say,
Speaker 3: a way that I actually respect. But I think that
Speaker 3: in a political landscape that is increasingly divisive and you know,
Speaker 3: demonizes the other side, then it's refreshing to have both
Speaker 3: of them. And you know, we have this way of
Speaker 3: talking about politics sometimes which is and I've been guilty
Speaker 3: of this, saying, you know what, I've got to educate
Speaker 3: uncle John because Uncle John is not understanding the way
Speaker 3: things are, and you know what, on climate change every
Speaker 3: now and then I try and educate Uncle John. But
Speaker 3: uncle John knows a few things that Jesse doesn't know,
Speaker 3: and we know from all the political analysis, and Uncle John.
Speaker 1: Might just have different priorities to Jesse.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's lived a different life, he's come from a
Speaker 3: different context, he's worked in a different industry, he has
Speaker 3: a different postcode. All things that we know inform our politics.
Speaker 3: You know what, you can think what you like about politicians,
Speaker 3: but I don't like that we would make assumptions about
Speaker 3: the people who vote for them. Because if it was
Speaker 3: as simple as rich people vote like this and poor
Speaker 3: people vote like this, white people vote like this, and
Speaker 3: people of color vote like this, then maybe, but it's
Speaker 3: not that simple, really.
Speaker 2: Complicationd That's true, although it's definitely part of it. A
Speaker 2: lot of people say, we all like to think we're
Speaker 2: deeply original thinkers, but very often if you tell someone
Speaker 2: your post code, your background, you're like, they can tell you.
Speaker 2: You're going to go, oh yeah, and they said a voice.
Speaker 2: We are very much a victim of our demographics. But
Speaker 2: the interviews themselves and what we learn in them, I
Speaker 2: want to talk about that. I really enjoyed both of
Speaker 2: them a lot. Kate was great, I thought, and this
Speaker 2: is a tricky thing to walk mere talking about this
Speaker 2: a little bit because this is not Lee sales. And
Speaker 2: I don't mean that in a way to any way.
Speaker 2: Jenna great, Kate. She's not trying to be That's not
Speaker 2: what No Filter is. That's all we're here for. But
Speaker 2: there was policy talk. There was personal talk, so it
Speaker 2: was like there was policy talk, but then there was
Speaker 2: the wedding stuff. There was like the one with Dutton
Speaker 2: was very interesting, probably because we know least about him
Speaker 2: in a way. Anthony Albanizi has been on No Filter before.
Speaker 2: His episode with Mia a few years ago was fascinating
Speaker 2: about his background and his parents, But that story is
Speaker 2: now very well told, so that's not so surprising, whereas Dunton,
Speaker 2: I feel, for a lot of people is a bit
Speaker 2: of an enigma, and you might have very strong feelings
Speaker 2: about him based on what you do know. But I
Speaker 2: found that really interesting and what they were both very
Speaker 2: good illustrations of, and it touches a little bit. And
Speaker 2: what was just talking about was about how your life
Speaker 2: experiences just absolutely imprint on you your values pretty early on.
Speaker 2: Because Dutton talked a lot about his years as a
Speaker 2: police officer and about being exposed to the sides of
Speaker 2: our society. I guess that a lot of people get
Speaker 2: to ignore unless they're part of it themselves, domestic violence,
Speaker 2: about criminality, about drug addiction, and that has without question
Speaker 2: colored the way that he sees the world enormously. Now
Speaker 2: you can think what you want about that, you can
Speaker 2: think what you want about whether or not that's a
Speaker 2: good or a healthy way to see the world. But
Speaker 2: there's no question and Albo and again this is such
Speaker 2: a well known story now, but his story of coming
Speaker 2: up where he came up in social housing with the
Speaker 2: single mum who was unwell, has entirely colored his worldview
Speaker 2: and it's just so interesting to be reminded of that,
Speaker 2: because it's really true. I found them both really interesting.
Speaker 1: I think they both went in with different jobs to do.
Speaker 1: I think Dutton went into this interview nervous because people
Speaker 1: don't know who he is, and so I think he
Speaker 1: was a little bit more tentative, and his job was
Speaker 1: to make people think that he's more human than perhaps
Speaker 1: they perceive, because, as he pointed out, in a lot
Speaker 1: of the roles he's had in the past, politically he's
Speaker 1: delivering bad news or he's got to be delivering unpopular
Speaker 1: opinions often, and he was trying to say, look, there's
Speaker 1: more to me than that. I'm not this two dimensional
Speaker 1: caricature albow. On the other hand, the job that he
Speaker 1: had to do was to be I am a serious
Speaker 1: person and I can be strong, and so he was
Speaker 1: very much with the facts, the policies, the numbers, which
Speaker 1: is also easy to do when you are the Prime
Speaker 1: minister and you've got.
Speaker 2: Good ability in a record.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but also you've been able to do things over
Speaker 1: the last four years, which of course Peter Dutton's never
Speaker 1: had the chance. So I think it's interesting. I think
Speaker 1: they both succeeded at what they had to do in
Speaker 1: very different ways.
Speaker 3: And you said this Mia that Dutton had to soften
Speaker 3: his image and Albanize almost had to harden it. Yeap,
Speaker 3: he had to show himself as strong and maybe there
Speaker 3: was some vulnerability in Dutton that he felt he had
Speaker 3: to show. And I think that that's probably a bit
Speaker 3: of a blueprint for what we might see going forward
Speaker 3: in the campaign. And just on politics and podcasting, Australian
Speaker 3: podcast listening it leads the world. It's Australians listen to
Speaker 3: more podcasts and pretty much anywhere else in the world.
Speaker 3: I think we're going to be hearing a lot from
Speaker 3: these two men between now and April. In a moment,
Speaker 3: are you constantly in a rush? Because there's a new
Speaker 3: word for that, and apparently it is not good for
Speaker 3: your health? And still to come the reaction to Hugh
Speaker 3: van Kilenberg's viral open letter to the parents of autistic children?
Speaker 3: Are you always rushing around even when there's no reason
Speaker 3: really to be in a hurry? Do you often feel impatient,
Speaker 3: irritated over small delays, constantly multitasking and resistant to any
Speaker 3: sort of dead time you might be suffering from hurry sickness.
Speaker 3: In an article on Mum and Maya this week, Juna
Speaker 3: Zoo reflects on her own excessive sense of time urgency.
Speaker 3: Apparently it's something type A that means sort of high
Speaker 3: achieving and competitive people can be prone to, and according
Speaker 3: to psychologists doctor Maria Elena Lukedi's over time constant running
Speaker 3: to multiple deadlines can put the release of adrenaline cortisol
Speaker 3: on automatic pilot, meaning that even on the weekend, when
Speaker 3: you have nowhere to be, you've got absolutely no plans,
Speaker 3: your body continues to release those chemicals and it is
Speaker 3: not good for you. Being in a state of constant
Speaker 3: urgency is to be perpetually stressed. It can lead to
Speaker 3: high blood pressure or a weakened immune system. The field
Speaker 3: of medicine is actually identifying a number of ways that
Speaker 3: being in a high state of cortisol can lead to
Speaker 3: multiple health concerns over the course of a life.
Speaker 1: Well, now, not only do I feel busy and stressed,
Speaker 1: I also feel worried and anxious.
Speaker 3: If you have hurry sickness, hurry sickness very badly because
Speaker 3: you're late.
Speaker 1: But I'm still in a hurry. The morequence exactly, I
Speaker 1: mean much more of a hurry than people who are
Speaker 1: on time because I'm constantly late.
Speaker 3: Well, I'm going to tell you in a moment, how
Speaker 3: are you're going to fix that? But Holly, do you
Speaker 3: relate to hurry.
Speaker 2: Sickness one hundred percent? I have horry sickness one hundred percent.
Speaker 2: I never leave enough time to get places in some
Speaker 2: areas of my life more than others. But I always
Speaker 2: feel like I'm behind the eight ball. And it was
Speaker 2: really interesting when you were just talking about weekends and
Speaker 2: little lights started going off for me because one of
Speaker 2: the things that I notice on weekends is I'll start
Speaker 2: like in my mind I've portioned out the day in
Speaker 2: like hours, like I've got this much time to do this,
Speaker 2: and if I do that, and then I do this,
Speaker 2: and then I have to talk to myself about no,
Speaker 2: you don't like it's okay, you don't have to. It
Speaker 2: will be all right if you don't. I remember in
Speaker 2: our old office, Well it will on the weekend when
Speaker 2: I don't really have it, like, say, the actual things
Speaker 2: I have to do that weekend is drop my daughter
Speaker 2: at this place and maybe clean the house so we
Speaker 2: don't all get whatever. But my constant hurriness has meant
Speaker 2: that I've portioned it up into all these urgent things.
Speaker 3: Remember in the old office when we had the floorboards,
Speaker 3: and the soundtrack to that office was Holly, Holly, even
Speaker 3: you powerble. You have seen Holly.
Speaker 1: She doesn't ramble.
Speaker 3: I've never seen her walk slowly.
Speaker 1: She's on stage half.
Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe, but she's always half running.
Speaker 1: You amble a little bit, I do amble. I know
Speaker 1: exactly why this is the case. I know what causes
Speaker 1: harry sickness. It is because nothing in our world is
Speaker 1: finite anymore. So everything used to have ends. So you
Speaker 1: would read a newspaper, you would get to the end
Speaker 1: of that newspaper and you would go, okay, I know
Speaker 1: the news for today. You would listen to a radio
Speaker 1: news bulletin, you would read a magazine, you would come
Speaker 1: to the end of that. You would do a day
Speaker 1: of work, and then you would go home. Things would end.
Speaker 1: But now, because of infinite scroll, you could literally mimic
Speaker 1: the experience of reading a magazine or the news twenty
Speaker 1: four seven without doing anything else. You never get to
Speaker 1: the end of the news, you never get to the
Speaker 1: end of anything. You never get to the end of
Speaker 1: work because you can take it home with you.
Speaker 3: In many cases, different theory as to what hurry sickness
Speaker 3: is about, because I'm addicted to this feeling, and I
Speaker 3: think it's because to hurry means that someone needs you. Yeah,
Speaker 3: it is so status validating. There is status, and I've
Speaker 3: found this going from work to then a very different
Speaker 3: pace of the day when I was on maternity leave,
Speaker 3: and that was very discombobulating, like there is sort of
Speaker 3: your baby needs an apple change and all that kind of stuff,
Speaker 3: but for nowhere externally. To need you at a certain
Speaker 3: time makes you feel like you're worthless something, And I
Speaker 3: think that that is why as well. The shifting of
Speaker 3: the gears on holidays can be really hard. I find
Speaker 3: myself in the car sometimes and heart rate rises, breath
Speaker 3: gets shallow, and I go, oh, rushing, rushing, rushing. It's
Speaker 3: on this road when I'm on my way home, like
Speaker 3: every day, and then I go, you're on your way
Speaker 3: home from work, it's fine, Like you don't need no bit.
Speaker 1: The reason why is because you're wanting to get home
Speaker 1: to see your child. Yes, And in the morning you're
Speaker 1: racing because you feel like you're late for work. So
Speaker 1: I think, particularly for mothers with young children or cares.
Speaker 1: You are always stealing time from someone or something, and
Speaker 1: you always have that sense of if I don't get
Speaker 1: home quicker, I'm stealing time from my child. If I
Speaker 1: don't get to work sooner, I'm stealing time from my
Speaker 1: work or whatever you're obligation.
Speaker 2: Then I think we get ourselves stuck in those patterns
Speaker 2: because that, without doubt, sort of the five six years
Speaker 2: that I had little kids and a busy job were
Speaker 2: the busiest of my life, right, they are for everybody
Speaker 2: when they've got kids who need them that much, and
Speaker 2: the schedule that are required that got to be here
Speaker 2: at this time, drop off there, pick up, put the
Speaker 2: rib and meeting and then this is a very high
Speaker 2: level of rushing, very very high level of rushing. But
Speaker 2: like the world moves on in times change and maybe
Speaker 2: you've shifted to a place where actually your kid needs
Speaker 2: a few hours to themselves on the weekend or whatever
Speaker 2: it is, and you don't have to be in charge
Speaker 2: of every moment. But it's really hard, I think, particularly
Speaker 2: for women, but not only to kick yourself out of
Speaker 2: hurry sickness.
Speaker 1: Did you say that, replace it with other things?
Speaker 3: Yeah? And just on that I think that when it's
Speaker 3: not thrust upon us, we thrust it upon ourselves on purpose.
Speaker 3: I do that, and I see people do that in retirement,
Speaker 3: and I see I have felt it on my own
Speaker 3: and holidays. Sometimes I'm rushing even more when I'm not
Speaker 3: at work because I'm just like, this is making me
Speaker 3: feel important. Okay, so you can fix it?
Speaker 1: Do you want to know?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 1: Just to overcome it all right?
Speaker 2: Is one of them going to be bloody meditating? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Mindfulness, holliod.
Speaker 3: What you have to do is called and I liked
Speaker 3: this expression, it's called dropping the anchor. And what you
Speaker 3: do is you focus on the here and now. I
Speaker 3: do this in the car sometimes and I go, you're
Speaker 3: in the car, just be in the moment, because when
Speaker 3: you have hurry sickness, you're never in the moment. You're
Speaker 3: always in the next thing and the next thing, the
Speaker 3: next thing and the next thing, and that's so bad
Speaker 3: for our brains. So mindfulness is really important. Their second
Speaker 3: thing is ask yourself, am I really in a hurry?
Speaker 3: And if I am in a hurry, is it that important?
Speaker 1: Yes? For me? For me? Is that the other when
Speaker 1: you're on your own business, there's always stuff like you
Speaker 1: never are finished. All yeah, like you're never finished. Do
Speaker 1: you know he meditates, Peter Dutton. I know, I was
Speaker 1: going to say I made a note. Kate said, I
Speaker 1: was really I'm really surprised to learn that about you, Peter,
Speaker 1: and he goes, yeah, well, I don't know why people
Speaker 1: are so surprised to hear that. He says, exercising in
Speaker 1: the morning, but also meditation is really important for him.
Speaker 3: The third thing is rewrite your to do lists. So
Speaker 3: this is about I actually heard them talking about this
Speaker 3: on BIZ recently, which I found quite helpful. You have
Speaker 3: to clarify what's urgent, and if you start every day,
Speaker 3: this is a message to myself twenty eight things on
Speaker 3: your to do list which you're not going to achieve.
Speaker 3: You're not only going to feel like a failure by
Speaker 3: the end of the day, but every minute will be
Speaker 3: defined by a sense of urgency. Because I also find
Speaker 3: that with those lists everything feels equally as urgent when
Speaker 3: it's not. Some of them are quite little things that
Speaker 3: could go on a different list.
Speaker 1: What do they say, we confuse urgent with important, So
Speaker 1: urgent is just the newest thing, right, yeah, but important
Speaker 1: things that often get bumped down the leaderboard of tasks.
Speaker 3: And you're better off to go what are the three
Speaker 3: urgent things today? Like, what are the three things I
Speaker 3: need to do? And then put them on the list
Speaker 3: and then kind of work out maybe every day you
Speaker 3: do one semi non urgent thing or something rather than
Speaker 3: treating everything with the same level of urgency.
Speaker 2: You know, there's a divide in the hurriness between the
Speaker 2: city and the non city. This is you'll have noticed
Speaker 2: this if you ever when you leave the city and
Speaker 2: you go to a small town and you order a
Speaker 2: coffee and after five peryeashlight, where's my fucking coffee?
Speaker 1: And then you get.
Speaker 2: Yes like blah blah, and the traffickers when people make
Speaker 2: jokes about that, being like, oh, you're on such in
Speaker 2: such time. But of course it isn't true massive generalization.
Speaker 2: The people who don't live in cities have got all
Speaker 2: the time in the world's stand around chatting. That's not true.
Speaker 2: But there is definitely something to the contagious nature of
Speaker 2: constant busy and hoiness that you have when you're around
Speaker 2: a whole lot of other people who've got it too,
Speaker 2: so that when you are in the car you're always
Speaker 2: like got to get my car, one car in front,
Speaker 2: got to get my car. Or you're in the queue
Speaker 2: at the shop and there are four people ahead of you,
Speaker 2: and you're like, whereas when you live somewhere with a
Speaker 2: smaller population and less of that around you all the time,
Speaker 2: it can, in theory, I'm working on it, infuse you
Speaker 2: with a slightly slower like, yeah, it's okay if that
Speaker 2: car goes in front of me, like there's going to
Speaker 2: be more road. You know, where's the tiny violin for
Speaker 2: the fact that our jobs just got harder these past
Speaker 2: few days. The King of England has got a podcast,
Speaker 2: Michelle Obama has a new podcast, and Duchess Meg of
Speaker 2: Sussex has got a new podcast.
Speaker 3: Yeah, isn't she doing lady startup?
Speaker 2: To she is? This is particularly aimed at me. I've
Speaker 2: got to get me as take on this in a
Speaker 2: second quickly, because I just want to say, for fuck's sake,
Speaker 2: everybody just leave it to the professionals. We don't need
Speaker 2: this level of competition. The King's podcast is actually a
Speaker 2: special Apple Music show about his favorite song bangers, all
Speaker 2: of them.
Speaker 1: Of course.
Speaker 2: Michelle is hosting a podcast with her big brother. It's
Speaker 2: called Imo in my opinion, it's.
Speaker 1: Very disconcerting looking at the video promo videos I've seen
Speaker 1: for her and her brother, because her brother has her face. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but in a bald man's body. Yep, it's very disconcerting.
Speaker 2: And they say that their podcast will leave you laughing, reflecting,
Speaker 2: and feeling more prepared to tackle life challenges, and I
Speaker 2: say that's what I does, so back off. Which and
Speaker 2: Megan's news show is called Confessions of a Female Founder
Speaker 2: and Mia, I'm expecting you to be Meg's first guest.
Speaker 1: Yes, do you know? This news dropped the other day
Speaker 1: and before nine am I had half a dozen a
Speaker 1: dozen texts dms, people saying you need to be on
Speaker 1: this podcast And I'm like, quick, I don't know, yes,
Speaker 1: you can, like how does one pitch oneself? But also
Speaker 1: I think so what it is is she's interviewing female founders.
Speaker 1: Actually think this is a good idea. She's interviewing female
Speaker 1: founders about how to start a business with the idea
Speaker 1: that she's starting her business and she wants some tips
Speaker 1: and tricks. Okay, it's not an original idea, but it's
Speaker 1: a good idea. Yeah, I think it's interesting.
Speaker 2: Late since she's already launched her business.
Speaker 1: Well it's not going that well, it's on.
Speaker 3: All ships rise, sinking ships rise. Is this tide that's
Speaker 3: beautifully said Jesse.
Speaker 2: You mangled that. But yes, that's why we shouldn't be threatened,
Speaker 2: because the success of the King of England's podcast.
Speaker 3: Will only lift our boat.
Speaker 2: Wealth Man after the break, why Hugh van Kylenberg's later
Speaker 2: had me sobbing into my phone on Friday morning, and
Speaker 2: everyone else's many opinions about it.
Speaker 1: Every Tuesday and Thursday, we drop new segments of Mum
Speaker 1: and Me Are Out Loud just for Mumma Me as
Speaker 1: subscribers follow the link in the show notes to get
Speaker 1: your daily dose of out Loud and a big thank
Speaker 1: you thank you to everyone who has already subscribed.
Speaker 4: Three years ago, one of our kids was diagnosed autistic.
Speaker 4: We haven't talked about it publicly yet because we needed
Speaker 4: time to process it and quite frankly, all our focus
Speaker 4: needed to be on supporting and loving our child. I
Speaker 4: never once thought I'd know such heartache. This is the
Speaker 4: hardest thing I've ever known. I'm sure you will feel
Speaker 4: the same. Most people will not understand this yet, but
Speaker 4: the pain of being a parent to an autistic child
Speaker 4: is not the child, it's the world. The pain is
Speaker 4: seeing your child standing on the sidelines, confused, distressed, and
Speaker 4: left out while the other kids instinctively understand the rules
Speaker 4: and the social norms. It's watching the world overwhelm them
Speaker 4: and then holding them through yet another meltdown. I don't
Speaker 4: want to feel this way. No, they're feeling a deep
Speaker 4: sense of shame, but their body and mind is overwhelmed
Speaker 4: and out of control, and there was nothing you can
Speaker 4: do except be there. It's the quiet grief of unspoken words,
Speaker 4: of watching them struggle to express things that come so
Speaker 4: easily to others. That's the way people look at you
Speaker 4: in public when they're crying on the floor or smashing
Speaker 4: themselves against the wall, strangers assuming they're badly behaved, instead
Speaker 4: of overstimulated, exhausted, drowning in a world that refuses to
Speaker 4: slow down for them. And however hard it is for me,
Speaker 4: I know they're doing it so much tougher.
Speaker 2: I don't want to be another person crying on the internet. Right, So,
Speaker 2: I've written a sensible thing I was going to say,
Speaker 2: but even just listening to that grab again just makes
Speaker 2: me want to cry. On Friday, I opened my phone
Speaker 2: and watched that, and I wasn't alone. What you just
Speaker 2: heard was the host of the Imperfect podcast and founder
Speaker 2: of the Resilience Project, Hugh Van Kylenberg, reading an open
Speaker 2: letter on his podcast. But that was a video that
Speaker 2: was on social media to parents of kids with autism,
Speaker 2: and my reaction to it, along with thousands and thousands
Speaker 2: of others, was a bit of a jagged, snotty exhale.
Speaker 2: There's been an overwhelming response to Hugh's ladder. It's gone viral.
Speaker 2: The majority of it has been positive from parents in
Speaker 2: similar positions saying thank you for articulating our experience, for saying, yes,
Speaker 2: it is incredibly difficult watching the world react to your child,
Speaker 2: sometimes with confusion and judgment and cruelty. It is stressful.
Speaker 2: It's exhausting learning how to be their best support, how
Speaker 2: to be their advocate and their protector as well as
Speaker 2: their cheerleader. And sometimes they're punching back, both figuratively and literally.
Speaker 2: And then there's been some pushback from those who resent
Speaker 2: any implication that neurotypical parents should be centered in a
Speaker 2: conversation about the neurodiverse, and also from those who feel
Speaker 2: like expressing the complexity of his feelings about parenting an
Speaker 2: autistic kid. In doing that, Hugh might be adding to
Speaker 2: negative perceptions that exist around neurodiverse people in general. The
Speaker 2: fact that before sharing what was actually a very personal letter,
Speaker 2: Hugh made sure to let people know that he had
Speaker 2: consulted with both autistic people and parents of autistic kids.
Speaker 2: He named Checked Grace Tame, Sarah Hayden, David Hobbs, Claire Willis,
Speaker 2: and Sam Cavanaugh of people who had helped him in
Speaker 2: preparing his very personal statement, And of course he also
Speaker 2: thanked his wife Penny for they shared something so personal
Speaker 2: but kept boundaries in places to not identify their child
Speaker 2: and to be as cautious as possible, I think, to
Speaker 2: make sure they weren't being seen as owning this whole discussion.
Speaker 2: And as I said, I don't want to be another
Speaker 2: person crying on the internet, but as someone who's walked
Speaker 2: in those shoes and still does, I want to say
Speaker 2: that I acknowledge all those complexities. But I want to
Speaker 2: just really strongly assert that Hugh and other parents, because
Speaker 2: he certainly isn't the first or the only who talk
Speaker 2: about this experience, are not trying to be a definitive
Speaker 2: voice about autism. They're not trying to own a narrative
Speaker 2: about disability or trying to claim that in some kind
Speaker 2: of suffering olympics they have it harder than other parents
Speaker 2: who are dealing with other really complicated issues or illnesses
Speaker 2: or disabilities. They're just speaking a truth about a very
Speaker 2: specific experience of being the parent of a neurodivergent child.
Speaker 2: And my reaction, as well as thousands of other people
Speaker 2: to tell you just how right he got it, because
Speaker 2: it is painful and stressful, and it's exhausting, and those
Speaker 2: things is who articulated, do not mean that it isn't
Speaker 2: also an extraordinary privilege as all parenting is, and a
Speaker 2: joy as all parenting is, and nobody picks themselves up
Speaker 2: and gets on with it more than a parent with
Speaker 2: a kid who needs them right. But not being allowed
Speaker 2: to say those hard parts out loud help nobody, in
Speaker 2: my opinion, and only add to the stress and pain
Speaker 2: and anxiety that can actually backfire on kids often. Jesse,
Speaker 2: do you think that one of the reasons that video
Speaker 2: got such an annoy almost response is that Hugh, as
Speaker 2: well as being very articulate and honest and vulnerable, in
Speaker 2: that is also a father rather than a mother, and
Speaker 2: that almost contributes to the impact.
Speaker 3: I would ordinarily say that I think that women cop
Speaker 3: more shit on the Internet than men do as a
Speaker 3: general point, but I actually don't think so. I think
Speaker 3: that how eloquent he was and insightful and vulnerable about
Speaker 3: this specific experience, I don't think it mattered whether he
Speaker 3: was a father or a mother. I think there's something
Speaker 3: to be said for the time of year that he
Speaker 3: wrote this letter. It's March, a new school year has
Speaker 3: meant a time of great change for kids with autism.
Speaker 3: Often can be really, really hard, and I think that
Speaker 3: there are a lot of parents feeling this, and so
Speaker 3: that's why it struck a particular chord.
Speaker 1: I also think.
Speaker 3: People might have just heard the first five or ten seconds,
Speaker 3: or seeing criticism and thought that Hugh was talking about
Speaker 3: the grief of having a child with autism full stop.
Speaker 3: That's actually not what he was saying. What he was
Speaker 3: saying is a truth that I remember my grandmother talking about,
Speaker 3: you know, when she was raising a child with an
Speaker 3: intellectual disability, which is different, but it's the pain of
Speaker 3: watching how the world treats that child. And my grand
Speaker 3: told this story of she raised her daughter and then
Speaker 3: her grandson with an intellectual disability, and sitting on a train.
Speaker 3: Simon was quite young at the time, and these schoolboys
Speaker 3: mocked him, and they did this thing with their mouth
Speaker 3: where they were mocking how he spoke, and she could
Speaker 3: see that Simon knew what was happening. That was the pain.
Speaker 3: The pain was going. I am feeling my child's pain.
Speaker 3: And as a parent, I think what people want more
Speaker 3: than anything is to see the world fall in love
Speaker 3: with your child and for the world to see them.
Speaker 3: It is one of the greatest.
Speaker 1: Joys to see them the same way you see.
Speaker 3: To see them the same way you see them. And
Speaker 3: my brother, who is a early childhood educator and he
Speaker 3: works with kids with specific needs, says that the look
Speaker 3: in a parent's face when you see their child, their
Speaker 3: child who has autism and maybe there for and their
Speaker 3: nonverbal and their behavior is punished in certain circumstances, When
Speaker 3: their parents see you connect with them and love them,
Speaker 3: that is one of their greatest joys. And that doesn't
Speaker 3: happen enough. And for you to say, if all you
Speaker 3: get out of this is that when you're in the
Speaker 3: shopping center on the weekend and you see a child
Speaker 3: having a tantrum, or you see a child reacting in
Speaker 3: a way that you have an opinion about, you have
Speaker 3: absolutely no idea, and to treat that child and that
Speaker 3: parent with compassion.
Speaker 1: Like to me, that was the takeaway, and that is
Speaker 1: what I took away. You know, I think that the
Speaker 1: way we learn about other people and the way that
Speaker 1: we become empathetic is by hearing other people's stories and
Speaker 1: by other people voicing their experiences. And to me, any
Speaker 1: attempt or criticism of so someone's right to do that
Speaker 1: or the way that they spoke their truth, and I
Speaker 1: know we've spoken about how their truth can be a
Speaker 1: bit of a cliche, but like their experience, this idea
Speaker 1: that there's only one way that you are allowed, you know,
Speaker 1: it's like it's a real policing or a real controlling
Speaker 1: of the narrative around I've noticed, particularly around disability, where
Speaker 1: any diversion from that path of that it is a gift,
Speaker 1: It is a superpower. We only stay positive, we only
Speaker 1: talk about the good stuff. You get a lot of
Speaker 1: blowback if you dare whether you're a person who is
Speaker 1: experiencing that neurodiversity or one of their cares. There is
Speaker 1: a lot of pressure and a lot of pressure to
Speaker 1: stay silent and not speak about your experience, and I
Speaker 1: just don't see why speaking about your experience takes anything
Speaker 1: away from the experience of others. I think that we
Speaker 1: need to hear from all aspects of the experience around
Speaker 1: everything in life. You know, we were just talking about
Speaker 1: the importance of hearing from people on a different political
Speaker 1: side to you and getting empathy into them. This idea
Speaker 1: that there can only be one voice is maddening to me,
Speaker 1: and I feel like I've seen this happen to parents
Speaker 1: before when they've spoken about their experience of parenting a
Speaker 1: child with a disability, and they have been shamed and
Speaker 1: silenced and accused of harming other children with disabilities. I
Speaker 1: was attacked when I spoke about having ADHD and how
Speaker 1: I didn't think it was a superpower and I wish
Speaker 1: I could have given it back, And there were a
Speaker 1: lot of people were positive, but there was a very
Speaker 1: vocal aspect of the neurodiverse community who was very angry
Speaker 1: with me and said that I shouldn't say it and
Speaker 1: trying to police my speech. And I just think I
Speaker 1: think it was a gift what you shared, and it
Speaker 1: will change the way I look at kids and parents.
Speaker 1: Because I don't have an autistic child, and there's not
Speaker 1: one in my immediate day to day life, I wouldn't
Speaker 1: necessarily recognize those signs.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I also think though, that it's interesting you say
Speaker 3: that because this is just this experience is so widespread.
Speaker 3: This is in of my friends that have kids. This
Speaker 3: is a you know, a really significant portion of parents
Speaker 3: that I know, And if you sit down at a
Speaker 3: table with parents, this conversation will come up. And to
Speaker 3: treat it with this, I saw a comment about radical
Speaker 3: acceptance and positivity and how learning that their child had
Speaker 3: this was their greatest gift. And I respect and I'm
Speaker 3: really happy for that family. But I think that when
Speaker 3: you layer on how you're meant to feel.
Speaker 1: And become toxic positive.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I understand the complexity of it because I
Speaker 2: talked to me are often about ADHD and one of
Speaker 2: the things you often say to me and this, and
Speaker 2: experts have said this to me, and every professional I've
Speaker 2: ever seen they'll say, you know, one of the biggest
Speaker 2: issues for a lot of kids who grow up with
Speaker 2: the Neuer diversity is shame, right, to be seen that
Speaker 2: their neurodiversity is a problem for other people. It makes
Speaker 2: other people's lives hard, right, And the reason this is
Speaker 2: very complex is it does make other people's lives hard.
Speaker 2: Like you said before, Jesse, that all parents want is
Speaker 2: for everybody to see how beautiful their kids are. That's true,
Speaker 2: and your kid is your number one priority. But also
Speaker 2: parents are people. Were just humans, like ordinary humans, with
Speaker 2: finite resources, finite amount of energy, finite amounts of patience, patience,
Speaker 2: and also finite amounts of knowledge about this stuff. The
Speaker 2: average parent who has given a diagnosis for their kid
Speaker 2: is not walking around, living and breathing what autism means,
Speaker 2: what ADHD means, so they have to learn it is
Speaker 2: difficult for them. It's okay for a parent. I think
Speaker 2: it needs to be okay for a parent to say
Speaker 2: this is exhausting. I am so stressed, and I am
Speaker 2: so lonely, and I am so whatever, without being told
Speaker 2: that they are being negative. However, the problem is I
Speaker 2: don't want your kids and other kids with these issues
Speaker 2: to feel like they are making their parents, teachers, care
Speaker 2: as friends, lives hard. So it is a really complicated thing,
Speaker 2: and I really respect and understand that, and I think
Speaker 2: that you've already said this mere but the answer is
Speaker 2: lots of different voices and nobody claiming you know, it's
Speaker 2: true that someone like you and someone I mean like me,
Speaker 2: I guess we have microphones in front of us and
Speaker 2: have platforms and audiences and so it's like, well, that
Speaker 2: experience will get lifted. But I think that this is
Speaker 2: a very specific experience that, as you said, Jesse, affects
Speaker 2: a lot of people. But we're just humans, and I
Speaker 2: think sometimes you're allowed to say this is really fucking difficult.
Speaker 2: Thank you out louders for being here with us today
Speaker 2: as always, and to our fabulous team for putting this
Speaker 2: show together. We're going to be back in your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 1: Bye.
Speaker 3: Shout out to any Mum and Me as subscribers listening.
Speaker 3: If you love the show and you want to support us,
Speaker 3: subscribing to Mum and Me I is the very best
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