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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.

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Speaker 3: If you have Harry sickness, you know Harry's sickness very

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Speaker 3: badly because you're like.

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Speaker 1: But I'm still in a hurry the exactly. I'm in

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Speaker 1: much more of a hurry than people who are on time.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome.

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Speaker 1: To Mama Mia. Out loud, it's what.

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Speaker 2: Women are actually talking about on Monday, the seventeenth of March.

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Speaker 3: I'm Holly Waynwright, I'm mea Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 2: And on the show today, two politicians walk into a

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Speaker 2: podcast studio. What we learned and what happened behind the

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Speaker 2: scenes when the Prime Minister and the opposition leader came

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Speaker 2: into Mamma Mia to talk. Also, I don't want to

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Speaker 2: alarm anyone on a Monday morning, but you probably have

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Speaker 2: hurry sickness. We'll tell you what that is and why.

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Speaker 2: A high profile dad's open letter to parents of neurodiverse

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Speaker 2: kids has dominated conversations all weekend. But first, Jesse Stevens.

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Speaker 3: In case he missed it, Jessica Mowboy had a baby

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Speaker 3: months ago and she's only.

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Speaker 1: Just telling us about it.

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Speaker 3: In September last year, the singer announced on stage that

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Speaker 3: she was pregnant, but otherwise she was very quiet about it.

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Speaker 3: There wasn't a social media announcement. There wasn't a article

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Speaker 3: where she announced it.

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Speaker 1: It's funny. I went back in her socials and she

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Speaker 1: doesn't mention it on her socials. But she was doing

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Speaker 1: concerts around septem Brocktober, so I assume it was noticeable.

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Speaker 1: When was the baby born? Do we know?

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Speaker 4: So?

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Speaker 3: The baby was born on January the thirteenth, and she

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Speaker 3: welcomed baby Maya into about the name, do you think

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Speaker 3: she's now louder?

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Speaker 1: Obviously?

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Speaker 3: She told Stella magazine over the weekend that she didn't

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Speaker 3: announce me as birth publicly because she didn't want to

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Speaker 3: disappoint loved ones who wanted to see her before she'd

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Speaker 3: had her first vaccinations, and she also wanted to protect

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Speaker 3: herself from trolls. She told the public aid that she

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Speaker 3: was thinking, you know, am I going to be a

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Speaker 3: good mum? And I wanted to hold space for myself

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Speaker 3: to be patient and give as much love and kindness

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Speaker 3: to myself as my body was changing holl love that.

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Speaker 3: Do you think that this is indicative of sort of

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Speaker 3: how we might be becoming more boundaried and our relationship

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Speaker 3: with social media evolving?

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Speaker 1: Yes?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I think for properly famous people like Jess Mawboy,

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Speaker 2: it's an indication that she has very healthy boundaries about

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Speaker 2: what her public life is and her private life is.

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Speaker 2: But one of the things that's amazing about this, I

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Speaker 2: think is that you're seeing it a little bit in

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Speaker 2: real life with non famous people too, where they're leaving

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Speaker 2: it really late to announce their pregnancies if they announce

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Speaker 2: them on socials, or they don't announce them at all,

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Speaker 2: and then they're just like, ohmus I've had a baby.

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Speaker 2: Or maybe you're working with someone and they're like visibly

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Speaker 2: pregnant but hasn't made it known, and now we've all

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Speaker 2: got the memo you never ask. I feel like it's

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Speaker 2: a very confident, boundaried flex almost.

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Speaker 3: It's very evolved, and I'm always in all of it.

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Speaker 3: When someone's like, I'm pregnant and I'm seven months, and

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Speaker 3: I'm like, the restraint because the respect I have, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: it means that you haven't been sharing every thought, feeling

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Speaker 3: all the work my craving, all my sickness, or you

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Speaker 3: haven't been doing that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they say that privacy is going to be the

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Speaker 1: new luxury, But guys, I am the top of the

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Speaker 1: leaderboard on this because I didn't announce my first pregnancy

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Speaker 1: for eight years.

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Speaker 2: Well when you were the editor?

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Speaker 3: Did you get around that?

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Speaker 1: Because there was no internet and I was the editor

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Speaker 1: of magazine and I just didn't mention it.

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Speaker 3: How about it worked, did anyone?

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Speaker 1: Oh no, they knew it worked, like people in my

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Speaker 1: actual life knew. I did know. Yeah, I did tell

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Speaker 1: my parents and also the father of the child, but

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Speaker 1: I didn't have to And so it came as a

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Speaker 1: big shock to a lot of people to realize that

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Speaker 1: I was actually a parent.

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Speaker 2: Because that basically says that you know at that time,

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Speaker 2: who you were like in your private life didn't affect

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Speaker 2: your job, as in, you don't need to know all

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Speaker 2: the details of my life to know that I'm a

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Speaker 2: good editor of this magazine, whereas now who we are,

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Speaker 2: that's what everyone has to know. What I don't mean us,

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Speaker 2: I mean I think people are.

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Speaker 1: I think it was also though I was I mean, god,

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Speaker 1: it was an easier time to have kids because you

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Speaker 1: didn't have to have the whole world speculating on how

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Speaker 1: you were parenting. I mean, even if not being a

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Speaker 1: high profile person, but there's still the commentary of the world,

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Speaker 1: whether it's about you individually or about parenting. But I

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Speaker 1: think it was also because I wasn't ready. I was young,

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Speaker 1: I was twenty four, I was out of step with

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Speaker 1: all of my peers, and I think that I needed

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Speaker 1: some time to process what it meant for my identity,

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Speaker 1: which I think was interesting a little bit about what

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Speaker 1: jess Mawboy said before the whole world processes it for you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and she's got a skincare sun Care line coming

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Speaker 3: out in the next week or two, so I think

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Speaker 3: that she realized that she needed to tell a brand

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Speaker 3: story about that, she needed to do something public. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: probably got to tell you that I've got a baby,

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Speaker 3: but I'm going to do it totally on my terms.

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Speaker 3: And I'm not just going to give you the interview

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Speaker 3: because I feel.

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Speaker 1: And she didn't show the baby you deserve it.

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Speaker 3: No, exactly right, I was five weeks pregnant and just

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Speaker 3: like I should clarify, I'm carrying your life.

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Speaker 1: Please have empathy.

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Speaker 2: Yet I would like special exemptions from everything. I don't

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Speaker 2: want to.

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Speaker 5: Do mister Alban easy, although I feel I'm on Australian

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Speaker 5: if I don't say albow absolutely. Peter Craig Dunton, welcome

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Speaker 5: to No Filter.

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Speaker 4: It's great to be here.

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Speaker 5: Thank you. You know this is a forum to speak

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Speaker 5: to a large cohort of Australian women. What is your

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Speaker 5: pitch to them?

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Speaker 6: We recognize there is more to do and my government

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Speaker 6: will always be respectful and engaging. And I believe one

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Speaker 6: of the key differences between my government and our opponents

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Speaker 6: is whether we take gender equity seriously.

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Speaker 5: Well, if you do, win, I would like to invite

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Speaker 5: you to come back.

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Speaker 1: Thank you.

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Speaker 2: Deal.

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Speaker 5: Given the ethos, the mission statement of Mamma Maya, which

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Speaker 5: is to improve the world for women and girls, yes,

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Speaker 5: I would like to discuss with you what you have

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Speaker 5: done to that end.

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Speaker 6: Firstly, an absolute commitment and it should be a conversation

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Speaker 6: that continues on for the year about what we can

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Speaker 6: do to make lives for women and young girls better.

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Speaker 1: The voices you just heard were, of course Peter Dutton,

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Speaker 1: Opposition leader and the Prime Minister Anthony Aubernezi interviewed by

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Speaker 1: Kate Lanebrook on No filter. Two interviews dropped over the weekend.

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Speaker 1: It may have sounded like they were all together. They

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Speaker 1: actually were separate interviews, but we dropped them at the same.

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Speaker 3: Time, exactly the same time. To the second to the

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Speaker 3: second can't be shown.

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Speaker 1: Well, friend, you had to drop one before the other

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Speaker 1: because there is a sequence and a chronology in the feed.

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Speaker 2: But have to press one button then another one, you

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Speaker 2: can't press them.

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Speaker 3: Similar were their meetings about what button was pressed first,

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Speaker 3: the Dutton but Dune button.

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Speaker 1: The election hasn't officially been called yet. A date in

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Speaker 1: a pool was meant to be announced last weekend, but

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Speaker 1: because of cyclone Alfred, it was bumped. So all that

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Speaker 1: we know is that we'll be going to the polls

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Speaker 1: sometime before May seventeenth. But meanwhile, as you just heard,

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Speaker 1: we continue with the election campaign that you have. When

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Speaker 1: you're not officially having an election campaign, politicians are shaking

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Speaker 1: hands and waving at babies and heading into podcast studios,

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Speaker 1: including ours. In fact, around this very table, in this

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Speaker 1: very studio is the room where it happened. The US

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Speaker 1: election last year was dubbed the podcast election because the

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Speaker 1: biggest cut through interviews, in fact, pretty much the only

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Speaker 1: cut through interviews were when Kamala Harris was on the

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Speaker 1: Call Her Daddy podcast with Alex Cooper and Trump went

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Speaker 1: on Joe Rogan and it looks like the same thing

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Speaker 1: might be playing out here, because I mean it's a

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Speaker 1: no brainer. Australia has an estimated nine point nine million

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Speaker 1: women of voting age, and Mum and Maya reaches about

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Speaker 1: eight point eight million of them. So Dutton is smart

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Speaker 1: to accept our invitation. And it should be said he's

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Speaker 1: the first most liberal leader who has since now come

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Speaker 1: Turnbull in twenty sixteen. I've interviewed every PM since Mum

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Speaker 1: and Mea began, with the two exceptions Tony Abbott, who

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Speaker 1: was also Minister for Women and Scott Morrison, who would

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Speaker 1: only do podcast interviews with men. True story. The number

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Speaker 1: of times we asked how did that turn out for you?

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Speaker 1: Fellas not so great? Jesse, what did you think of

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Speaker 1: the interviews?

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Speaker 3: I thought they were really interesting and insightful, and I

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Speaker 3: know Kate lane Brook a little bit. I am an

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Speaker 3: enormous fan of her work and as I was listening,

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Speaker 3: I thought how fresh it was to listen to her

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Speaker 3: conduct these interviews and have absolutely no idea how she votes.

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Speaker 3: I don't know what her preference is. I know what

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Speaker 3: her opinions are about certain things, but.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that's important?

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Speaker 3: Look, I think it can be. I was thinking about

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Speaker 3: the US example, and I think that that's probably the

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Speaker 3: way in where which the US election is going to

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Speaker 3: influence Australia the most is that this will be the

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Speaker 3: podcast election. And what happened there is that it was

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Speaker 3: almost like these prominent podcasters who associated themselves with a

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Speaker 3: particular party would take on a Trump or take on

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Speaker 3: a Harris and go, hi, Hello, welcome to my audience.

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Speaker 2: Go.

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Speaker 3: They didn't hold them to any sort of account.

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Speaker 1: They didn't really part of the campaign.

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Speaker 3: They were part of the campaign. And to me there

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Speaker 3: were points at which I went, is this just propaganda

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Speaker 3: if you don't have And I've been kind of mulling

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Speaker 3: over this, that there is the art of the political

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Speaker 3: interview at the least sales the Sarah Ferguson who there's

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Speaker 3: a methodology, there's a technique of sitting down with a

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Speaker 3: politician and holding them to account and pushing back. And

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Speaker 3: I've thought this about myself as a podcaster. I would

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Speaker 3: feel ill equipped. It's so hard and I don't feel

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Speaker 3: like I have the training to be able to sit

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Speaker 3: there and actually push back. There's a lot of responsibility

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Speaker 3: with that job. What I loved an impartiality is a

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Speaker 3: key part of that.

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Speaker 2: I was going to say that you say it's fresh

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Speaker 2: that you don't know when you listen to Kate, but

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Speaker 2: actually that's the way that all political interviews used to be.

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Speaker 2: It was very important that.

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Speaker 1: The journal is not on podcast.

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Speaker 2: But I mean it's like until the podcast wave that

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Speaker 2: was very important is the political journalist. They couldn't be

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Speaker 2: a member of a party, they weren't allowed to express

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Speaker 2: any opinions. In partiality was everything. But we've kind of

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Speaker 2: thrown that out of the window a little bit.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and look, I think there's something really and I've

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Speaker 3: seen podcasters do this, and I think it's your prerogative

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Speaker 3: if you want to endorse a particular That sounds like

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Speaker 3: such an American way of talking about it, because we

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Speaker 3: also don't vote for the prime minister.

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Speaker 1: We vote for someone now are electric.

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Speaker 3: But if you think that every liberal voter is a

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Speaker 3: racist traditionalist who you know hates the poor, then you're wrong.

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Speaker 3: And if you think that every labor voter is a

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Speaker 3: woke socialist weakling, you're also wrong. So I think it's

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Speaker 3: so important to dismantle those echo chambers, especially at a

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Speaker 3: time when people have this parasocial relationship with their podcast, right, Like,

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Speaker 3: I listened to people and they feel like my friends,

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Speaker 3: and I don't just want people telling me who to

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Speaker 3: vote for. That doesn't feel like authentic democracy. So it

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Speaker 3: felt really important to me.

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Speaker 1: I think some people do, though, what someone to to

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Speaker 1: vote for.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't. I think that women are smart enough

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Speaker 3: to decide for themselves. And I noticed in my own

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Speaker 3: behavior I listened to the candidate I agreed with Less,

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Speaker 3: that was my first. So I got to choose which

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Speaker 3: one I listened to first, and I went, I'm going

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Speaker 3: to listen to that one because I know Less, because

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Speaker 3: I know my own political sensibilities, because I know my

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Speaker 3: own leanings, and I found that enlightening.

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Speaker 2: The thing that's really interesting, right about what happens when

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Speaker 2: you do what Mom and Mia just did and say

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Speaker 2: we're not playing favorites here, We're going to give these

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Speaker 2: two candidates exactly the same space treatment weight all of

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Speaker 2: those things, is that you will get some pushback. Actually,

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Speaker 2: what's been really impressive, I think from Mom and MEA's

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Speaker 2: audience is that Obviously the endie visual candidates and the

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Speaker 2: things they've said have had some pushback, but there hasn't

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Speaker 2: been as much as you might imagine for Mom and

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Speaker 2: Mia for doing it. Because I do think that there

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Speaker 2: is fatigue with this whole don't platform that person. I

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Speaker 2: don't want to hear from that person. How very dare

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Speaker 2: you when it comes to this level of politics.

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Speaker 3: Talk about the word platforming because these are political they

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Speaker 3: are voted by the Australian people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I think the platform is a ridiculous thing

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Speaker 2: to say when you're talking about like the people who

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Speaker 2: are going to be who are or are going to

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Speaker 2: be prime ministers you need to put But what I

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Speaker 2: wanted to say is so there are people who are

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Speaker 2: uncomfortable with it because the way that we like it.

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Speaker 2: You just express this very well, Jesse. Is a very

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Speaker 2: binary view of people who disagree with me bad, people

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Speaker 2: agree with me good. What if I listen to an

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Speaker 2: interview with a candidate who I don't agree with and

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Speaker 2: they seem like a kind of okay person, and maybe

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Speaker 2: they tell a funny joke and maybe they make me

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Speaker 2: feel a bit warm inside, and maybe I laugh or whatever.

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Speaker 2: I'm not saying those things happen, but what if that

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Speaker 2: makes us very uncomfortable because we've kind of come to

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Speaker 2: this place where we think and actually, I don't think

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Speaker 2: it's new. I think that I grew up in a

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Speaker 2: very binary political time in Britain, and my parents are

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Speaker 2: very binary politically, and they know exactly which celebrities they

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Speaker 2: think voted for Margaret Thatcher, and they will never laugh

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Speaker 2: at any joke they told, even if it was the

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Speaker 2: funniest jokes that. But I think that it's really important

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Speaker 2: to push ourselves to go if my values and my

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Speaker 2: beliefs are truly my values and my beliefs, they're not

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Speaker 2: going to be swung by a guy not being a

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Speaker 2: devil with horns information. I don't need everybody who I

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Speaker 2: don't agree with on everything to be a monster. In fact,

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Speaker 2: it's much more challenging if they're not a monster.

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Speaker 1: I think what's interesting as well, we were talking about

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Speaker 1: the parasocial relationship and how this used to happen to

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Speaker 1: and still does happen to journalists, impartial journalists ABC journalists

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Speaker 1: for example, who don't showcase their political views and it's

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Speaker 1: in their job description that they have to be completely partial.

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Speaker 1: They still copy it. You're bias this way, you're biased

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Speaker 1: that way.

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Speaker 2: A lot is.

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Speaker 1: Projected onto them. But with the parasocial relationship with podcasters,

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Speaker 1: which is different to journalists. You have to look at

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Speaker 1: what happened with Abbe Chatfield when she interviewed Anthony Abernesi

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Speaker 1: and she said, I'm interviewing you because I want to

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Speaker 1: help you get reelected, and her audience rioted because they said,

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Speaker 1: how very dare you.

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Speaker 3: Platform some totally and I think that it's someone's.

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Speaker 1: So right wing, they said, and that you should just

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Speaker 1: speak to Adam Bant. And so what you can find,

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Speaker 1: and what we have found is that when people have

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Speaker 1: a parasocial relationship with you and you're the friends in

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Speaker 1: their ears, and you don't agree with them about something

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Speaker 1: that they feel very strongly about, they can really feel

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Speaker 1: betrayed and really turn on you. And I think that's

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Speaker 1: what happened with those people in Abby's audience. And it's interesting.

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Speaker 1: Over the weekend she did some live show with Adam Bant,

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Speaker 1: the Greens leader, and they were like very much together,

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Speaker 1: and she's kind of out campaigning for him, which of

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Speaker 1: course her prerogative. That makes it look quite fraught.

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Speaker 3: And that's one way of doing it, and as you say,

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Speaker 3: a way that I actually respect. But I think that

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Speaker 3: in a political landscape that is increasingly divisive and you know,

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Speaker 3: demonizes the other side, then it's refreshing to have both

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Speaker 3: of them. And you know, we have this way of

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Speaker 3: talking about politics sometimes which is and I've been guilty

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Speaker 3: of this, saying, you know what, I've got to educate

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Speaker 3: uncle John because Uncle John is not understanding the way

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Speaker 3: things are, and you know what, on climate change every

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Speaker 3: now and then I try and educate Uncle John. But

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Speaker 3: uncle John knows a few things that Jesse doesn't know,

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Speaker 3: and we know from all the political analysis, and Uncle John.

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Speaker 1: Might just have different priorities to Jesse.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he's lived a different life, he's come from a

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Speaker 3: different context, he's worked in a different industry, he has

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Speaker 3: a different postcode. All things that we know inform our politics.

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Speaker 3: You know what, you can think what you like about politicians,

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Speaker 3: but I don't like that we would make assumptions about

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Speaker 3: the people who vote for them. Because if it was

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Speaker 3: as simple as rich people vote like this and poor

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Speaker 3: people vote like this, white people vote like this, and

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Speaker 3: people of color vote like this, then maybe, but it's

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Speaker 3: not that simple, really.

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Speaker 2: Complicationd That's true, although it's definitely part of it. A

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Speaker 2: lot of people say, we all like to think we're

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Speaker 2: deeply original thinkers, but very often if you tell someone

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Speaker 2: your post code, your background, you're like, they can tell you.

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Speaker 2: You're going to go, oh yeah, and they said a voice.

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Speaker 2: We are very much a victim of our demographics. But

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Speaker 2: the interviews themselves and what we learn in them, I

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Speaker 2: want to talk about that. I really enjoyed both of

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Speaker 2: them a lot. Kate was great, I thought, and this

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Speaker 2: is a tricky thing to walk mere talking about this

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Speaker 2: a little bit because this is not Lee sales. And

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Speaker 2: I don't mean that in a way to any way.

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Speaker 2: Jenna great, Kate. She's not trying to be That's not

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Speaker 2: what No Filter is. That's all we're here for. But

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Speaker 2: there was policy talk. There was personal talk, so it

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Speaker 2: was like there was policy talk, but then there was

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Speaker 2: the wedding stuff. There was like the one with Dutton

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Speaker 2: was very interesting, probably because we know least about him

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Speaker 2: in a way. Anthony Albanizi has been on No Filter before.

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Speaker 2: His episode with Mia a few years ago was fascinating

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Speaker 2: about his background and his parents, But that story is

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Speaker 2: now very well told, so that's not so surprising, whereas Dunton,

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Speaker 2: I feel, for a lot of people is a bit

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Speaker 2: of an enigma, and you might have very strong feelings

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Speaker 2: about him based on what you do know. But I

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Speaker 2: found that really interesting and what they were both very

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Speaker 2: good illustrations of, and it touches a little bit. And

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Speaker 2: what was just talking about was about how your life

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Speaker 2: experiences just absolutely imprint on you your values pretty early on.

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Speaker 2: Because Dutton talked a lot about his years as a

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Speaker 2: police officer and about being exposed to the sides of

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Speaker 2: our society. I guess that a lot of people get

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Speaker 2: to ignore unless they're part of it themselves, domestic violence,

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Speaker 2: about criminality, about drug addiction, and that has without question

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Speaker 2: colored the way that he sees the world enormously. Now

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Speaker 2: you can think what you want about that, you can

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Speaker 2: think what you want about whether or not that's a

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Speaker 2: good or a healthy way to see the world. But

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Speaker 2: there's no question and Albo and again this is such

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00:18:07,742 --> 00:18:10,542
Speaker 2: a well known story now, but his story of coming

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Speaker 2: up where he came up in social housing with the

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Speaker 2: single mum who was unwell, has entirely colored his worldview

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Speaker 2: and it's just so interesting to be reminded of that,

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Speaker 2: because it's really true. I found them both really interesting.

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Speaker 1: I think they both went in with different jobs to do.

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Speaker 1: I think Dutton went into this interview nervous because people

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Speaker 1: don't know who he is, and so I think he

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Speaker 1: was a little bit more tentative, and his job was

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Speaker 1: to make people think that he's more human than perhaps

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Speaker 1: they perceive, because, as he pointed out, in a lot

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Speaker 1: of the roles he's had in the past, politically he's

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Speaker 1: delivering bad news or he's got to be delivering unpopular

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Speaker 1: opinions often, and he was trying to say, look, there's

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Speaker 1: more to me than that. I'm not this two dimensional

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Speaker 1: caricature albow. On the other hand, the job that he

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Speaker 1: had to do was to be I am a serious

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Speaker 1: person and I can be strong, and so he was

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Speaker 1: very much with the facts, the policies, the numbers, which

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Speaker 1: is also easy to do when you are the Prime

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Speaker 1: minister and you've got.

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Speaker 2: Good ability in a record.

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00:19:13,101 --> 00:19:15,621
Speaker 1: Yeah, but also you've been able to do things over

402
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Speaker 1: the last four years, which of course Peter Dutton's never

403
00:19:18,462 --> 00:19:20,702
Speaker 1: had the chance. So I think it's interesting. I think

404
00:19:20,742 --> 00:19:23,302
Speaker 1: they both succeeded at what they had to do in

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Speaker 1: very different ways.

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Speaker 3: And you said this Mia that Dutton had to soften

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00:19:26,621 --> 00:19:29,542
Speaker 3: his image and Albanize almost had to harden it. Yeap,

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00:19:29,782 --> 00:19:32,621
Speaker 3: he had to show himself as strong and maybe there

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00:19:32,661 --> 00:19:35,021
Speaker 3: was some vulnerability in Dutton that he felt he had

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Speaker 3: to show. And I think that that's probably a bit

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Speaker 3: of a blueprint for what we might see going forward

412
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Speaker 3: in the campaign. And just on politics and podcasting, Australian

413
00:19:44,502 --> 00:19:48,101
Speaker 3: podcast listening it leads the world. It's Australians listen to

414
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Speaker 3: more podcasts and pretty much anywhere else in the world.

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Speaker 3: I think we're going to be hearing a lot from

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Speaker 3: these two men between now and April. In a moment,

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Speaker 3: are you constantly in a rush? Because there's a new

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Speaker 3: word for that, and apparently it is not good for

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Speaker 3: your health? And still to come the reaction to Hugh

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Speaker 3: van Kilenberg's viral open letter to the parents of autistic children?

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Speaker 3: Are you always rushing around even when there's no reason

422
00:20:14,302 --> 00:20:17,221
Speaker 3: really to be in a hurry? Do you often feel impatient,

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Speaker 3: irritated over small delays, constantly multitasking and resistant to any

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00:20:22,061 --> 00:20:25,942
Speaker 3: sort of dead time you might be suffering from hurry sickness.

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00:20:26,462 --> 00:20:28,861
Speaker 3: In an article on Mum and Maya this week, Juna

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Speaker 3: Zoo reflects on her own excessive sense of time urgency.

427
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Speaker 3: Apparently it's something type A that means sort of high

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00:20:36,621 --> 00:20:40,542
Speaker 3: achieving and competitive people can be prone to, and according

429
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Speaker 3: to psychologists doctor Maria Elena Lukedi's over time constant running

430
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Speaker 3: to multiple deadlines can put the release of adrenaline cortisol

431
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Speaker 3: on automatic pilot, meaning that even on the weekend, when

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00:20:51,821 --> 00:20:54,702
Speaker 3: you have nowhere to be, you've got absolutely no plans,

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00:20:55,022 --> 00:20:58,701
Speaker 3: your body continues to release those chemicals and it is

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Speaker 3: not good for you. Being in a state of constant

435
00:21:02,061 --> 00:21:05,981
Speaker 3: urgency is to be perpetually stressed. It can lead to

436
00:21:06,222 --> 00:21:09,381
Speaker 3: high blood pressure or a weakened immune system. The field

437
00:21:09,422 --> 00:21:12,101
Speaker 3: of medicine is actually identifying a number of ways that

438
00:21:12,182 --> 00:21:14,461
Speaker 3: being in a high state of cortisol can lead to

439
00:21:14,621 --> 00:21:17,061
Speaker 3: multiple health concerns over the course of a life.

440
00:21:17,141 --> 00:21:19,141
Speaker 1: Well, now, not only do I feel busy and stressed,

441
00:21:19,141 --> 00:21:21,382
Speaker 1: I also feel worried and anxious.

442
00:21:21,502 --> 00:21:26,381
Speaker 3: If you have hurry sickness, hurry sickness very badly because

443
00:21:26,422 --> 00:21:26,941
Speaker 3: you're late.

444
00:21:27,782 --> 00:21:31,381
Speaker 1: But I'm still in a hurry. The morequence exactly, I

445
00:21:31,502 --> 00:21:33,181
Speaker 1: mean much more of a hurry than people who are

446
00:21:33,222 --> 00:21:36,141
Speaker 1: on time because I'm constantly late.

447
00:21:36,302 --> 00:21:37,621
Speaker 3: Well, I'm going to tell you in a moment, how

448
00:21:37,621 --> 00:21:40,061
Speaker 3: are you're going to fix that? But Holly, do you

449
00:21:40,101 --> 00:21:40,902
Speaker 3: relate to hurry.

450
00:21:40,661 --> 00:21:43,581
Speaker 2: Sickness one hundred percent? I have horry sickness one hundred percent.

451
00:21:43,661 --> 00:21:46,661
Speaker 2: I never leave enough time to get places in some

452
00:21:46,821 --> 00:21:49,861
Speaker 2: areas of my life more than others. But I always

453
00:21:49,901 --> 00:21:52,981
Speaker 2: feel like I'm behind the eight ball. And it was

454
00:21:53,022 --> 00:21:55,461
Speaker 2: really interesting when you were just talking about weekends and

455
00:21:55,542 --> 00:21:57,701
Speaker 2: little lights started going off for me because one of

456
00:21:57,702 --> 00:22:01,502
Speaker 2: the things that I notice on weekends is I'll start

457
00:22:01,942 --> 00:22:04,542
Speaker 2: like in my mind I've portioned out the day in

458
00:22:04,661 --> 00:22:06,821
Speaker 2: like hours, like I've got this much time to do this,

459
00:22:06,861 --> 00:22:08,022
Speaker 2: and if I do that, and then I do this,

460
00:22:08,381 --> 00:22:11,302
Speaker 2: and then I have to talk to myself about no,

461
00:22:11,381 --> 00:22:14,181
Speaker 2: you don't like it's okay, you don't have to. It

462
00:22:14,222 --> 00:22:16,821
Speaker 2: will be all right if you don't. I remember in

463
00:22:16,861 --> 00:22:18,621
Speaker 2: our old office, Well it will on the weekend when

464
00:22:18,661 --> 00:22:21,142
Speaker 2: I don't really have it, like, say, the actual things

465
00:22:21,182 --> 00:22:23,061
Speaker 2: I have to do that weekend is drop my daughter

466
00:22:23,101 --> 00:22:25,221
Speaker 2: at this place and maybe clean the house so we

467
00:22:25,222 --> 00:22:29,702
Speaker 2: don't all get whatever. But my constant hurriness has meant

468
00:22:29,702 --> 00:22:31,982
Speaker 2: that I've portioned it up into all these urgent things.

469
00:22:32,022 --> 00:22:34,582
Speaker 3: Remember in the old office when we had the floorboards,

470
00:22:34,821 --> 00:22:39,022
Speaker 3: and the soundtrack to that office was Holly, Holly, even

471
00:22:39,262 --> 00:22:41,461
Speaker 3: you powerble. You have seen Holly.

472
00:22:41,821 --> 00:22:42,661
Speaker 1: She doesn't ramble.

473
00:22:43,302 --> 00:22:45,942
Speaker 3: I've never seen her walk slowly.

474
00:22:46,061 --> 00:22:47,982
Speaker 1: She's on stage half.

475
00:22:47,982 --> 00:22:49,861
Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe, but she's always half running.

476
00:22:50,022 --> 00:22:52,581
Speaker 1: You amble a little bit, I do amble. I know

477
00:22:52,661 --> 00:22:55,221
Speaker 1: exactly why this is the case. I know what causes

478
00:22:55,262 --> 00:22:58,421
Speaker 1: harry sickness. It is because nothing in our world is

479
00:22:58,542 --> 00:23:02,901
Speaker 1: finite anymore. So everything used to have ends. So you

480
00:23:02,901 --> 00:23:05,022
Speaker 1: would read a newspaper, you would get to the end

481
00:23:05,061 --> 00:23:06,901
Speaker 1: of that newspaper and you would go, okay, I know

482
00:23:06,982 --> 00:23:10,582
Speaker 1: the news for today. You would listen to a radio

483
00:23:10,782 --> 00:23:13,942
Speaker 1: news bulletin, you would read a magazine, you would come

484
00:23:13,982 --> 00:23:16,061
Speaker 1: to the end of that. You would do a day

485
00:23:16,101 --> 00:23:18,622
Speaker 1: of work, and then you would go home. Things would end.

486
00:23:19,222 --> 00:23:23,821
Speaker 1: But now, because of infinite scroll, you could literally mimic

487
00:23:23,861 --> 00:23:26,902
Speaker 1: the experience of reading a magazine or the news twenty

488
00:23:26,942 --> 00:23:29,221
Speaker 1: four seven without doing anything else. You never get to

489
00:23:29,262 --> 00:23:30,941
Speaker 1: the end of the news, you never get to the

490
00:23:31,022 --> 00:23:32,542
Speaker 1: end of anything. You never get to the end of

491
00:23:32,581 --> 00:23:34,022
Speaker 1: work because you can take it home with you.

492
00:23:34,262 --> 00:23:37,621
Speaker 3: In many cases, different theory as to what hurry sickness

493
00:23:37,661 --> 00:23:40,901
Speaker 3: is about, because I'm addicted to this feeling, and I

494
00:23:40,942 --> 00:23:45,381
Speaker 3: think it's because to hurry means that someone needs you. Yeah,

495
00:23:45,422 --> 00:23:49,262
Speaker 3: it is so status validating. There is status, and I've

496
00:23:49,502 --> 00:23:53,581
Speaker 3: found this going from work to then a very different

497
00:23:53,621 --> 00:23:55,942
Speaker 3: pace of the day when I was on maternity leave,

498
00:23:56,422 --> 00:23:59,542
Speaker 3: and that was very discombobulating, like there is sort of

499
00:23:59,542 --> 00:24:01,542
Speaker 3: your baby needs an apple change and all that kind of stuff,

500
00:24:01,581 --> 00:24:04,901
Speaker 3: but for nowhere externally. To need you at a certain

501
00:24:05,022 --> 00:24:10,341
Speaker 3: time makes you feel like you're worthless something, And I

502
00:24:10,381 --> 00:24:12,661
Speaker 3: think that that is why as well. The shifting of

503
00:24:12,702 --> 00:24:15,942
Speaker 3: the gears on holidays can be really hard. I find

504
00:24:15,982 --> 00:24:19,141
Speaker 3: myself in the car sometimes and heart rate rises, breath

505
00:24:19,182 --> 00:24:21,582
Speaker 3: gets shallow, and I go, oh, rushing, rushing, rushing. It's

506
00:24:21,581 --> 00:24:23,701
Speaker 3: on this road when I'm on my way home, like

507
00:24:23,821 --> 00:24:26,542
Speaker 3: every day, and then I go, you're on your way

508
00:24:26,542 --> 00:24:29,821
Speaker 3: home from work, it's fine, Like you don't need no bit.

509
00:24:29,861 --> 00:24:32,901
Speaker 1: The reason why is because you're wanting to get home

510
00:24:32,982 --> 00:24:35,942
Speaker 1: to see your child. Yes, And in the morning you're

511
00:24:36,022 --> 00:24:38,821
Speaker 1: racing because you feel like you're late for work. So

512
00:24:39,262 --> 00:24:42,262
Speaker 1: I think, particularly for mothers with young children or cares.

513
00:24:43,022 --> 00:24:46,901
Speaker 1: You are always stealing time from someone or something, and

514
00:24:46,942 --> 00:24:49,942
Speaker 1: you always have that sense of if I don't get

515
00:24:49,942 --> 00:24:52,222
Speaker 1: home quicker, I'm stealing time from my child. If I

516
00:24:52,262 --> 00:24:54,341
Speaker 1: don't get to work sooner, I'm stealing time from my

517
00:24:54,462 --> 00:24:55,662
Speaker 1: work or whatever you're obligation.

518
00:24:55,821 --> 00:24:58,821
Speaker 2: Then I think we get ourselves stuck in those patterns

519
00:24:58,861 --> 00:25:02,502
Speaker 2: because that, without doubt, sort of the five six years

520
00:25:02,502 --> 00:25:05,182
Speaker 2: that I had little kids and a busy job were

521
00:25:05,222 --> 00:25:07,221
Speaker 2: the busiest of my life, right, they are for everybody

522
00:25:07,262 --> 00:25:08,821
Speaker 2: when they've got kids who need them that much, and

523
00:25:08,901 --> 00:25:11,821
Speaker 2: the schedule that are required that got to be here

524
00:25:11,861 --> 00:25:13,621
Speaker 2: at this time, drop off there, pick up, put the

525
00:25:13,782 --> 00:25:17,222
Speaker 2: rib and meeting and then this is a very high

526
00:25:17,302 --> 00:25:19,981
Speaker 2: level of rushing, very very high level of rushing. But

527
00:25:20,141 --> 00:25:22,302
Speaker 2: like the world moves on in times change and maybe

528
00:25:22,341 --> 00:25:25,262
Speaker 2: you've shifted to a place where actually your kid needs

529
00:25:25,262 --> 00:25:27,941
Speaker 2: a few hours to themselves on the weekend or whatever

530
00:25:27,982 --> 00:25:29,621
Speaker 2: it is, and you don't have to be in charge

531
00:25:29,621 --> 00:25:32,022
Speaker 2: of every moment. But it's really hard, I think, particularly

532
00:25:32,061 --> 00:25:34,901
Speaker 2: for women, but not only to kick yourself out of

533
00:25:34,982 --> 00:25:36,142
Speaker 2: hurry sickness.

534
00:25:36,182 --> 00:25:38,302
Speaker 1: Did you say that, replace it with other things?

535
00:25:38,581 --> 00:25:40,821
Speaker 3: Yeah? And just on that I think that when it's

536
00:25:40,821 --> 00:25:43,902
Speaker 3: not thrust upon us, we thrust it upon ourselves on purpose.

537
00:25:44,141 --> 00:25:46,182
Speaker 3: I do that, and I see people do that in retirement,

538
00:25:46,222 --> 00:25:48,462
Speaker 3: and I see I have felt it on my own

539
00:25:48,462 --> 00:25:50,661
Speaker 3: and holidays. Sometimes I'm rushing even more when I'm not

540
00:25:50,661 --> 00:25:52,581
Speaker 3: at work because I'm just like, this is making me

541
00:25:52,621 --> 00:25:54,781
Speaker 3: feel important. Okay, so you can fix it?

542
00:25:54,901 --> 00:25:55,381
Speaker 1: Do you want to know?

543
00:25:55,542 --> 00:25:55,742
Speaker 3: Yes?

544
00:25:55,942 --> 00:25:56,982
Speaker 1: Just to overcome it all right?

545
00:25:57,141 --> 00:26:00,342
Speaker 2: Is one of them going to be bloody meditating? Yeah?

546
00:26:00,422 --> 00:26:01,462
Speaker 1: Mindfulness, holliod.

547
00:26:01,942 --> 00:26:04,142
Speaker 3: What you have to do is called and I liked

548
00:26:04,182 --> 00:26:07,181
Speaker 3: this expression, it's called dropping the anchor. And what you

549
00:26:07,222 --> 00:26:09,181
Speaker 3: do is you focus on the here and now. I

550
00:26:09,222 --> 00:26:11,581
Speaker 3: do this in the car sometimes and I go, you're

551
00:26:11,581 --> 00:26:14,702
Speaker 3: in the car, just be in the moment, because when

552
00:26:14,742 --> 00:26:17,542
Speaker 3: you have hurry sickness, you're never in the moment. You're

553
00:26:17,542 --> 00:26:18,981
Speaker 3: always in the next thing and the next thing, the

554
00:26:18,982 --> 00:26:20,702
Speaker 3: next thing and the next thing, and that's so bad

555
00:26:20,782 --> 00:26:24,461
Speaker 3: for our brains. So mindfulness is really important. Their second

556
00:26:24,462 --> 00:26:28,061
Speaker 3: thing is ask yourself, am I really in a hurry?

557
00:26:28,742 --> 00:26:30,622
Speaker 3: And if I am in a hurry, is it that important?

558
00:26:30,861 --> 00:26:33,902
Speaker 1: Yes? For me? For me? Is that the other when

559
00:26:33,942 --> 00:26:36,861
Speaker 1: you're on your own business, there's always stuff like you

560
00:26:36,982 --> 00:26:40,222
Speaker 1: never are finished. All yeah, like you're never finished. Do

561
00:26:40,262 --> 00:26:43,101
Speaker 1: you know he meditates, Peter Dutton. I know, I was

562
00:26:43,141 --> 00:26:45,421
Speaker 1: going to say I made a note. Kate said, I

563
00:26:45,502 --> 00:26:47,942
Speaker 1: was really I'm really surprised to learn that about you, Peter,

564
00:26:48,022 --> 00:26:49,542
Speaker 1: and he goes, yeah, well, I don't know why people

565
00:26:49,581 --> 00:26:52,302
Speaker 1: are so surprised to hear that. He says, exercising in

566
00:26:52,341 --> 00:26:55,821
Speaker 1: the morning, but also meditation is really important for him.

567
00:26:56,182 --> 00:26:59,461
Speaker 3: The third thing is rewrite your to do lists. So

568
00:26:59,581 --> 00:27:01,461
Speaker 3: this is about I actually heard them talking about this

569
00:27:01,502 --> 00:27:03,981
Speaker 3: on BIZ recently, which I found quite helpful. You have

570
00:27:04,022 --> 00:27:07,542
Speaker 3: to clarify what's urgent, and if you start every day,

571
00:27:07,702 --> 00:27:10,741
Speaker 3: this is a message to myself twenty eight things on

572
00:27:10,782 --> 00:27:12,861
Speaker 3: your to do list which you're not going to achieve.

573
00:27:13,341 --> 00:27:15,221
Speaker 3: You're not only going to feel like a failure by

574
00:27:15,262 --> 00:27:16,861
Speaker 3: the end of the day, but every minute will be

575
00:27:16,901 --> 00:27:19,542
Speaker 3: defined by a sense of urgency. Because I also find

576
00:27:19,581 --> 00:27:22,662
Speaker 3: that with those lists everything feels equally as urgent when

577
00:27:22,702 --> 00:27:25,022
Speaker 3: it's not. Some of them are quite little things that

578
00:27:25,061 --> 00:27:26,502
Speaker 3: could go on a different list.

579
00:27:26,581 --> 00:27:29,941
Speaker 1: What do they say, we confuse urgent with important, So

580
00:27:30,182 --> 00:27:33,621
Speaker 1: urgent is just the newest thing, right, yeah, but important

581
00:27:34,581 --> 00:27:37,982
Speaker 1: things that often get bumped down the leaderboard of tasks.

582
00:27:37,542 --> 00:27:39,542
Speaker 3: And you're better off to go what are the three

583
00:27:40,022 --> 00:27:42,221
Speaker 3: urgent things today? Like, what are the three things I

584
00:27:42,262 --> 00:27:44,502
Speaker 3: need to do? And then put them on the list

585
00:27:44,621 --> 00:27:46,741
Speaker 3: and then kind of work out maybe every day you

586
00:27:46,782 --> 00:27:49,581
Speaker 3: do one semi non urgent thing or something rather than

587
00:27:49,621 --> 00:27:51,702
Speaker 3: treating everything with the same level of urgency.

588
00:27:51,982 --> 00:27:54,941
Speaker 2: You know, there's a divide in the hurriness between the

589
00:27:54,982 --> 00:27:58,141
Speaker 2: city and the non city. This is you'll have noticed

590
00:27:58,182 --> 00:27:59,941
Speaker 2: this if you ever when you leave the city and

591
00:27:59,982 --> 00:28:01,701
Speaker 2: you go to a small town and you order a

592
00:28:01,702 --> 00:28:04,262
Speaker 2: coffee and after five peryeashlight, where's my fucking coffee?

593
00:28:04,302 --> 00:28:05,022
Speaker 1: And then you get.

594
00:28:04,982 --> 00:28:07,222
Speaker 2: Yes like blah blah, and the traffickers when people make

595
00:28:07,302 --> 00:28:09,701
Speaker 2: jokes about that, being like, oh, you're on such in

596
00:28:09,742 --> 00:28:13,542
Speaker 2: such time. But of course it isn't true massive generalization.

597
00:28:13,581 --> 00:28:15,181
Speaker 2: The people who don't live in cities have got all

598
00:28:15,222 --> 00:28:17,502
Speaker 2: the time in the world's stand around chatting. That's not true.

599
00:28:17,901 --> 00:28:22,542
Speaker 2: But there is definitely something to the contagious nature of

600
00:28:22,661 --> 00:28:25,542
Speaker 2: constant busy and hoiness that you have when you're around

601
00:28:25,581 --> 00:28:27,341
Speaker 2: a whole lot of other people who've got it too,

602
00:28:27,821 --> 00:28:29,462
Speaker 2: so that when you are in the car you're always

603
00:28:29,462 --> 00:28:31,581
Speaker 2: like got to get my car, one car in front,

604
00:28:31,661 --> 00:28:33,542
Speaker 2: got to get my car. Or you're in the queue

605
00:28:33,542 --> 00:28:35,581
Speaker 2: at the shop and there are four people ahead of you,

606
00:28:35,621 --> 00:28:37,502
Speaker 2: and you're like, whereas when you live somewhere with a

607
00:28:37,502 --> 00:28:41,102
Speaker 2: smaller population and less of that around you all the time,

608
00:28:41,582 --> 00:28:44,862
Speaker 2: it can, in theory, I'm working on it, infuse you

609
00:28:45,382 --> 00:28:48,742
Speaker 2: with a slightly slower like, yeah, it's okay if that

610
00:28:48,782 --> 00:28:51,022
Speaker 2: car goes in front of me, like there's going to

611
00:28:51,062 --> 00:28:55,142
Speaker 2: be more road. You know, where's the tiny violin for

612
00:28:55,222 --> 00:28:58,062
Speaker 2: the fact that our jobs just got harder these past

613
00:28:58,102 --> 00:29:01,502
Speaker 2: few days. The King of England has got a podcast,

614
00:29:02,262 --> 00:29:06,022
Speaker 2: Michelle Obama has a new podcast, and Duchess Meg of

615
00:29:06,062 --> 00:29:07,862
Speaker 2: Sussex has got a new podcast.

616
00:29:07,942 --> 00:29:09,382
Speaker 3: Yeah, isn't she doing lady startup?

617
00:29:09,382 --> 00:29:11,942
Speaker 2: To she is? This is particularly aimed at me. I've

618
00:29:11,942 --> 00:29:13,142
Speaker 2: got to get me as take on this in a

619
00:29:13,182 --> 00:29:15,382
Speaker 2: second quickly, because I just want to say, for fuck's sake,

620
00:29:15,422 --> 00:29:18,702
Speaker 2: everybody just leave it to the professionals. We don't need

621
00:29:18,702 --> 00:29:21,941
Speaker 2: this level of competition. The King's podcast is actually a

622
00:29:21,982 --> 00:29:25,142
Speaker 2: special Apple Music show about his favorite song bangers, all

623
00:29:25,182 --> 00:29:25,382
Speaker 2: of them.

624
00:29:25,422 --> 00:29:25,782
Speaker 1: Of course.

625
00:29:26,022 --> 00:29:28,342
Speaker 2: Michelle is hosting a podcast with her big brother. It's

626
00:29:28,342 --> 00:29:30,702
Speaker 2: called Imo in my opinion, it's.

627
00:29:30,661 --> 00:29:34,022
Speaker 1: Very disconcerting looking at the video promo videos I've seen

628
00:29:34,102 --> 00:29:36,862
Speaker 1: for her and her brother, because her brother has her face. Yeah,

629
00:29:36,982 --> 00:29:40,302
Speaker 1: but in a bald man's body. Yep, it's very disconcerting.

630
00:29:40,382 --> 00:29:43,102
Speaker 2: And they say that their podcast will leave you laughing, reflecting,

631
00:29:43,142 --> 00:29:45,542
Speaker 2: and feeling more prepared to tackle life challenges, and I

632
00:29:45,542 --> 00:29:48,262
Speaker 2: say that's what I does, so back off. Which and

633
00:29:48,342 --> 00:29:52,342
Speaker 2: Megan's news show is called Confessions of a Female Founder

634
00:29:52,502 --> 00:29:54,902
Speaker 2: and Mia, I'm expecting you to be Meg's first guest.

635
00:29:55,142 --> 00:29:57,502
Speaker 1: Yes, do you know? This news dropped the other day

636
00:29:57,542 --> 00:30:00,302
Speaker 1: and before nine am I had half a dozen a

637
00:30:00,342 --> 00:30:04,181
Speaker 1: dozen texts dms, people saying you need to be on

638
00:30:04,222 --> 00:30:09,142
Speaker 1: this podcast And I'm like, quick, I don't know, yes,

639
00:30:09,262 --> 00:30:11,421
Speaker 1: you can, like how does one pitch oneself? But also

640
00:30:12,661 --> 00:30:15,622
Speaker 1: I think so what it is is she's interviewing female founders.

641
00:30:15,661 --> 00:30:17,902
Speaker 1: Actually think this is a good idea. She's interviewing female

642
00:30:17,982 --> 00:30:20,862
Speaker 1: founders about how to start a business with the idea

643
00:30:20,862 --> 00:30:23,342
Speaker 1: that she's starting her business and she wants some tips

644
00:30:23,382 --> 00:30:26,181
Speaker 1: and tricks. Okay, it's not an original idea, but it's

645
00:30:26,222 --> 00:30:28,342
Speaker 1: a good idea. Yeah, I think it's interesting.

646
00:30:28,822 --> 00:30:30,902
Speaker 2: Late since she's already launched her business.

647
00:30:30,902 --> 00:30:33,302
Speaker 1: Well it's not going that well, it's on.

648
00:30:33,222 --> 00:30:37,782
Speaker 3: All ships rise, sinking ships rise. Is this tide that's

649
00:30:37,902 --> 00:30:38,942
Speaker 3: beautifully said Jesse.

650
00:30:39,822 --> 00:30:43,221
Speaker 2: You mangled that. But yes, that's why we shouldn't be threatened,

651
00:30:43,262 --> 00:30:46,662
Speaker 2: because the success of the King of England's podcast.

652
00:30:46,182 --> 00:30:48,421
Speaker 3: Will only lift our boat.

653
00:30:50,102 --> 00:30:54,062
Speaker 2: Wealth Man after the break, why Hugh van Kylenberg's later

654
00:30:54,142 --> 00:30:56,461
Speaker 2: had me sobbing into my phone on Friday morning, and

655
00:30:56,542 --> 00:30:58,702
Speaker 2: everyone else's many opinions about it.

656
00:30:59,742 --> 00:31:02,421
Speaker 1: Every Tuesday and Thursday, we drop new segments of Mum

657
00:31:02,502 --> 00:31:04,542
Speaker 1: and Me Are Out Loud just for Mumma Me as

658
00:31:04,542 --> 00:31:07,102
Speaker 1: subscribers follow the link in the show notes to get

659
00:31:07,102 --> 00:31:09,422
Speaker 1: your daily dose of out Loud and a big thank

660
00:31:09,462 --> 00:31:11,902
Speaker 1: you thank you to everyone who has already subscribed.

661
00:31:22,422 --> 00:31:24,702
Speaker 4: Three years ago, one of our kids was diagnosed autistic.

662
00:31:25,902 --> 00:31:28,982
Speaker 4: We haven't talked about it publicly yet because we needed

663
00:31:29,022 --> 00:31:31,181
Speaker 4: time to process it and quite frankly, all our focus

664
00:31:31,222 --> 00:31:35,102
Speaker 4: needed to be on supporting and loving our child. I

665
00:31:35,182 --> 00:31:38,421
Speaker 4: never once thought I'd know such heartache. This is the

666
00:31:38,462 --> 00:31:41,262
Speaker 4: hardest thing I've ever known. I'm sure you will feel

667
00:31:41,302 --> 00:31:44,701
Speaker 4: the same. Most people will not understand this yet, but

668
00:31:44,742 --> 00:31:46,782
Speaker 4: the pain of being a parent to an autistic child

669
00:31:47,222 --> 00:31:53,622
Speaker 4: is not the child, it's the world. The pain is

670
00:31:53,661 --> 00:31:58,622
Speaker 4: seeing your child standing on the sidelines, confused, distressed, and

671
00:31:58,702 --> 00:32:01,542
Speaker 4: left out while the other kids instinctively understand the rules

672
00:32:02,102 --> 00:32:06,142
Speaker 4: and the social norms. It's watching the world overwhelm them

673
00:32:06,382 --> 00:32:09,782
Speaker 4: and then holding them through yet another meltdown. I don't

674
00:32:09,782 --> 00:32:12,862
Speaker 4: want to feel this way. No, they're feeling a deep

675
00:32:12,902 --> 00:32:15,902
Speaker 4: sense of shame, but their body and mind is overwhelmed

676
00:32:15,942 --> 00:32:18,302
Speaker 4: and out of control, and there was nothing you can

677
00:32:18,342 --> 00:32:23,181
Speaker 4: do except be there. It's the quiet grief of unspoken words,

678
00:32:23,382 --> 00:32:25,622
Speaker 4: of watching them struggle to express things that come so

679
00:32:25,661 --> 00:32:28,461
Speaker 4: easily to others. That's the way people look at you

680
00:32:28,502 --> 00:32:31,582
Speaker 4: in public when they're crying on the floor or smashing

681
00:32:31,582 --> 00:32:35,661
Speaker 4: themselves against the wall, strangers assuming they're badly behaved, instead

682
00:32:35,702 --> 00:32:39,181
Speaker 4: of overstimulated, exhausted, drowning in a world that refuses to

683
00:32:39,182 --> 00:32:42,862
Speaker 4: slow down for them. And however hard it is for me,

684
00:32:43,262 --> 00:32:44,902
Speaker 4: I know they're doing it so much tougher.

685
00:32:45,302 --> 00:32:47,822
Speaker 2: I don't want to be another person crying on the internet. Right, So,

686
00:32:47,862 --> 00:32:49,702
Speaker 2: I've written a sensible thing I was going to say,

687
00:32:49,742 --> 00:32:51,822
Speaker 2: but even just listening to that grab again just makes

688
00:32:51,862 --> 00:32:54,822
Speaker 2: me want to cry. On Friday, I opened my phone

689
00:32:54,862 --> 00:32:57,181
Speaker 2: and watched that, and I wasn't alone. What you just

690
00:32:57,262 --> 00:33:00,701
Speaker 2: heard was the host of the Imperfect podcast and founder

691
00:33:00,702 --> 00:33:04,062
Speaker 2: of the Resilience Project, Hugh Van Kylenberg, reading an open

692
00:33:04,142 --> 00:33:06,421
Speaker 2: letter on his podcast. But that was a video that

693
00:33:06,542 --> 00:33:09,502
Speaker 2: was on social media to parents of kids with autism,

694
00:33:10,302 --> 00:33:13,181
Speaker 2: and my reaction to it, along with thousands and thousands

695
00:33:13,222 --> 00:33:16,862
Speaker 2: of others, was a bit of a jagged, snotty exhale.

696
00:33:18,182 --> 00:33:21,661
Speaker 2: There's been an overwhelming response to Hugh's ladder. It's gone viral.

697
00:33:22,222 --> 00:33:24,981
Speaker 2: The majority of it has been positive from parents in

698
00:33:25,022 --> 00:33:29,941
Speaker 2: similar positions saying thank you for articulating our experience, for saying, yes,

699
00:33:30,062 --> 00:33:33,421
Speaker 2: it is incredibly difficult watching the world react to your child,

700
00:33:33,942 --> 00:33:38,661
Speaker 2: sometimes with confusion and judgment and cruelty. It is stressful.

701
00:33:38,742 --> 00:33:42,902
Speaker 2: It's exhausting learning how to be their best support, how

702
00:33:42,982 --> 00:33:45,382
Speaker 2: to be their advocate and their protector as well as

703
00:33:45,382 --> 00:33:49,582
Speaker 2: their cheerleader. And sometimes they're punching back, both figuratively and literally.

704
00:33:50,742 --> 00:33:54,062
Speaker 2: And then there's been some pushback from those who resent

705
00:33:54,222 --> 00:33:58,062
Speaker 2: any implication that neurotypical parents should be centered in a

706
00:33:58,102 --> 00:34:02,302
Speaker 2: conversation about the neurodiverse, and also from those who feel

707
00:34:02,342 --> 00:34:05,262
Speaker 2: like expressing the complexity of his feelings about parenting an

708
00:34:05,262 --> 00:34:08,942
Speaker 2: autistic kid. In doing that, Hugh might be adding to

709
00:34:09,022 --> 00:34:14,221
Speaker 2: negative perceptions that exist around neurodiverse people in general. The

710
00:34:14,302 --> 00:34:17,422
Speaker 2: fact that before sharing what was actually a very personal letter,

711
00:34:17,542 --> 00:34:20,261
Speaker 2: Hugh made sure to let people know that he had

712
00:34:20,302 --> 00:34:24,022
Speaker 2: consulted with both autistic people and parents of autistic kids.

713
00:34:24,022 --> 00:34:28,382
Speaker 2: He named Checked Grace Tame, Sarah Hayden, David Hobbs, Claire Willis,

714
00:34:28,382 --> 00:34:31,781
Speaker 2: and Sam Cavanaugh of people who had helped him in

715
00:34:31,862 --> 00:34:35,462
Speaker 2: preparing his very personal statement, And of course he also

716
00:34:35,462 --> 00:34:39,102
Speaker 2: thanked his wife Penny for they shared something so personal

717
00:34:39,142 --> 00:34:42,542
Speaker 2: but kept boundaries in places to not identify their child

718
00:34:43,342 --> 00:34:46,022
Speaker 2: and to be as cautious as possible, I think, to

719
00:34:46,062 --> 00:34:50,142
Speaker 2: make sure they weren't being seen as owning this whole discussion.

720
00:34:50,422 --> 00:34:51,781
Speaker 2: And as I said, I don't want to be another

721
00:34:51,822 --> 00:34:54,381
Speaker 2: person crying on the internet, but as someone who's walked

722
00:34:54,382 --> 00:34:56,102
Speaker 2: in those shoes and still does, I want to say

723
00:34:56,102 --> 00:34:59,142
Speaker 2: that I acknowledge all those complexities. But I want to

724
00:34:59,181 --> 00:35:02,542
Speaker 2: just really strongly assert that Hugh and other parents, because

725
00:35:02,542 --> 00:35:05,142
Speaker 2: he certainly isn't the first or the only who talk

726
00:35:05,181 --> 00:35:07,862
Speaker 2: about this experience, are not trying to be a definitive

727
00:35:07,942 --> 00:35:10,782
Speaker 2: voice about autism. They're not trying to own a narrative

728
00:35:10,862 --> 00:35:14,301
Speaker 2: about disability or trying to claim that in some kind

729
00:35:14,382 --> 00:35:17,022
Speaker 2: of suffering olympics they have it harder than other parents

730
00:35:17,062 --> 00:35:20,622
Speaker 2: who are dealing with other really complicated issues or illnesses

731
00:35:20,701 --> 00:35:24,142
Speaker 2: or disabilities. They're just speaking a truth about a very

732
00:35:24,422 --> 00:35:28,662
Speaker 2: specific experience of being the parent of a neurodivergent child.

733
00:35:28,741 --> 00:35:31,982
Speaker 2: And my reaction, as well as thousands of other people

734
00:35:32,062 --> 00:35:34,342
Speaker 2: to tell you just how right he got it, because

735
00:35:34,862 --> 00:35:39,142
Speaker 2: it is painful and stressful, and it's exhausting, and those

736
00:35:39,221 --> 00:35:42,142
Speaker 2: things is who articulated, do not mean that it isn't

737
00:35:42,221 --> 00:35:46,062
Speaker 2: also an extraordinary privilege as all parenting is, and a

738
00:35:46,181 --> 00:35:49,741
Speaker 2: joy as all parenting is, and nobody picks themselves up

739
00:35:49,741 --> 00:35:51,422
Speaker 2: and gets on with it more than a parent with

740
00:35:51,462 --> 00:35:54,181
Speaker 2: a kid who needs them right. But not being allowed

741
00:35:54,221 --> 00:35:57,942
Speaker 2: to say those hard parts out loud help nobody, in

742
00:35:58,022 --> 00:36:01,342
Speaker 2: my opinion, and only add to the stress and pain

743
00:36:01,422 --> 00:36:05,901
Speaker 2: and anxiety that can actually backfire on kids often. Jesse,

744
00:36:06,502 --> 00:36:08,662
Speaker 2: do you think that one of the reasons that video

745
00:36:08,781 --> 00:36:12,022
Speaker 2: got such an annoy almost response is that Hugh, as

746
00:36:12,022 --> 00:36:15,102
Speaker 2: well as being very articulate and honest and vulnerable, in

747
00:36:15,142 --> 00:36:18,062
Speaker 2: that is also a father rather than a mother, and

748
00:36:18,102 --> 00:36:20,661
Speaker 2: that almost contributes to the impact.

749
00:36:21,181 --> 00:36:25,301
Speaker 3: I would ordinarily say that I think that women cop

750
00:36:25,822 --> 00:36:28,261
Speaker 3: more shit on the Internet than men do as a

751
00:36:28,382 --> 00:36:31,102
Speaker 3: general point, but I actually don't think so. I think

752
00:36:31,142 --> 00:36:35,301
Speaker 3: that how eloquent he was and insightful and vulnerable about

753
00:36:35,342 --> 00:36:38,661
Speaker 3: this specific experience, I don't think it mattered whether he

754
00:36:38,741 --> 00:36:40,782
Speaker 3: was a father or a mother. I think there's something

755
00:36:40,781 --> 00:36:42,741
Speaker 3: to be said for the time of year that he

756
00:36:42,781 --> 00:36:46,462
Speaker 3: wrote this letter. It's March, a new school year has

757
00:36:46,582 --> 00:36:50,062
Speaker 3: meant a time of great change for kids with autism.

758
00:36:50,862 --> 00:36:53,701
Speaker 3: Often can be really, really hard, and I think that

759
00:36:53,781 --> 00:36:56,062
Speaker 3: there are a lot of parents feeling this, and so

760
00:36:56,422 --> 00:36:58,382
Speaker 3: that's why it struck a particular chord.

761
00:36:59,142 --> 00:37:00,062
Speaker 1: I also think.

762
00:37:00,062 --> 00:37:02,582
Speaker 3: People might have just heard the first five or ten seconds,

763
00:37:03,062 --> 00:37:05,821
Speaker 3: or seeing criticism and thought that Hugh was talking about

764
00:37:05,822 --> 00:37:07,862
Speaker 3: the grief of having a child with autism full stop.

765
00:37:07,862 --> 00:37:10,462
Speaker 3: That's actually not what he was saying. What he was

766
00:37:10,462 --> 00:37:14,622
Speaker 3: saying is a truth that I remember my grandmother talking about,

767
00:37:14,902 --> 00:37:16,861
Speaker 3: you know, when she was raising a child with an

768
00:37:16,862 --> 00:37:20,102
Speaker 3: intellectual disability, which is different, but it's the pain of

769
00:37:20,142 --> 00:37:24,142
Speaker 3: watching how the world treats that child. And my grand

770
00:37:24,221 --> 00:37:26,781
Speaker 3: told this story of she raised her daughter and then

771
00:37:26,822 --> 00:37:29,342
Speaker 3: her grandson with an intellectual disability, and sitting on a train.

772
00:37:30,102 --> 00:37:33,221
Speaker 3: Simon was quite young at the time, and these schoolboys

773
00:37:33,382 --> 00:37:35,102
Speaker 3: mocked him, and they did this thing with their mouth

774
00:37:35,102 --> 00:37:38,701
Speaker 3: where they were mocking how he spoke, and she could

775
00:37:38,741 --> 00:37:42,261
Speaker 3: see that Simon knew what was happening. That was the pain.

776
00:37:42,701 --> 00:37:46,221
Speaker 3: The pain was going. I am feeling my child's pain.

777
00:37:47,062 --> 00:37:49,502
Speaker 3: And as a parent, I think what people want more

778
00:37:49,542 --> 00:37:52,582
Speaker 3: than anything is to see the world fall in love

779
00:37:53,261 --> 00:37:55,901
Speaker 3: with your child and for the world to see them.

780
00:37:55,902 --> 00:37:57,221
Speaker 3: It is one of the greatest.

781
00:37:56,902 --> 00:37:58,782
Speaker 1: Joys to see them the same way you see.

782
00:37:58,582 --> 00:38:00,102
Speaker 3: To see them the same way you see them. And

783
00:38:00,181 --> 00:38:03,062
Speaker 3: my brother, who is a early childhood educator and he

784
00:38:03,102 --> 00:38:07,102
Speaker 3: works with kids with specific needs, says that the look

785
00:38:07,142 --> 00:38:10,741
Speaker 3: in a parent's face when you see their child, their

786
00:38:10,822 --> 00:38:14,901
Speaker 3: child who has autism and maybe there for and their

787
00:38:14,942 --> 00:38:19,542
Speaker 3: nonverbal and their behavior is punished in certain circumstances, When

788
00:38:19,582 --> 00:38:25,221
Speaker 3: their parents see you connect with them and love them,

789
00:38:26,022 --> 00:38:29,222
Speaker 3: that is one of their greatest joys. And that doesn't

790
00:38:29,221 --> 00:38:32,022
Speaker 3: happen enough. And for you to say, if all you

791
00:38:32,062 --> 00:38:33,422
Speaker 3: get out of this is that when you're in the

792
00:38:33,422 --> 00:38:35,261
Speaker 3: shopping center on the weekend and you see a child

793
00:38:35,342 --> 00:38:37,301
Speaker 3: having a tantrum, or you see a child reacting in

794
00:38:37,342 --> 00:38:39,622
Speaker 3: a way that you have an opinion about, you have

795
00:38:39,902 --> 00:38:43,102
Speaker 3: absolutely no idea, and to treat that child and that

796
00:38:43,221 --> 00:38:44,221
Speaker 3: parent with compassion.

797
00:38:44,902 --> 00:38:47,781
Speaker 1: Like to me, that was the takeaway, and that is

798
00:38:47,822 --> 00:38:52,102
Speaker 1: what I took away. You know, I think that the

799
00:38:52,142 --> 00:38:54,462
Speaker 1: way we learn about other people and the way that

800
00:38:54,902 --> 00:38:59,102
Speaker 1: we become empathetic is by hearing other people's stories and

801
00:38:59,102 --> 00:39:04,622
Speaker 1: by other people voicing their experiences. And to me, any

802
00:39:04,982 --> 00:39:10,741
Speaker 1: attempt or criticism of so someone's right to do that

803
00:39:10,982 --> 00:39:13,982
Speaker 1: or the way that they spoke their truth, and I

804
00:39:13,982 --> 00:39:17,221
Speaker 1: know we've spoken about how their truth can be a

805
00:39:17,221 --> 00:39:21,502
Speaker 1: bit of a cliche, but like their experience, this idea

806
00:39:21,582 --> 00:39:24,382
Speaker 1: that there's only one way that you are allowed, you know,

807
00:39:24,462 --> 00:39:26,941
Speaker 1: it's like it's a real policing or a real controlling

808
00:39:27,142 --> 00:39:31,702
Speaker 1: of the narrative around I've noticed, particularly around disability, where

809
00:39:32,701 --> 00:39:36,702
Speaker 1: any diversion from that path of that it is a gift,

810
00:39:36,741 --> 00:39:39,501
Speaker 1: It is a superpower. We only stay positive, we only

811
00:39:39,542 --> 00:39:42,342
Speaker 1: talk about the good stuff. You get a lot of

812
00:39:42,382 --> 00:39:45,261
Speaker 1: blowback if you dare whether you're a person who is

813
00:39:45,342 --> 00:39:50,181
Speaker 1: experiencing that neurodiversity or one of their cares. There is

814
00:39:50,221 --> 00:39:52,542
Speaker 1: a lot of pressure and a lot of pressure to

815
00:39:52,582 --> 00:39:55,261
Speaker 1: stay silent and not speak about your experience, and I

816
00:39:55,382 --> 00:39:59,742
Speaker 1: just don't see why speaking about your experience takes anything

817
00:39:59,781 --> 00:40:02,701
Speaker 1: away from the experience of others. I think that we

818
00:40:02,822 --> 00:40:08,221
Speaker 1: need to hear from all aspects of the experience around

819
00:40:08,741 --> 00:40:10,701
Speaker 1: everything in life. You know, we were just talking about

820
00:40:10,741 --> 00:40:13,822
Speaker 1: the importance of hearing from people on a different political

821
00:40:13,862 --> 00:40:16,862
Speaker 1: side to you and getting empathy into them. This idea

822
00:40:16,902 --> 00:40:20,261
Speaker 1: that there can only be one voice is maddening to me,

823
00:40:20,462 --> 00:40:24,502
Speaker 1: and I feel like I've seen this happen to parents

824
00:40:24,542 --> 00:40:27,861
Speaker 1: before when they've spoken about their experience of parenting a

825
00:40:27,942 --> 00:40:30,821
Speaker 1: child with a disability, and they have been shamed and

826
00:40:30,942 --> 00:40:36,341
Speaker 1: silenced and accused of harming other children with disabilities. I

827
00:40:36,422 --> 00:40:39,221
Speaker 1: was attacked when I spoke about having ADHD and how

828
00:40:39,261 --> 00:40:41,022
Speaker 1: I didn't think it was a superpower and I wish

829
00:40:41,062 --> 00:40:42,902
Speaker 1: I could have given it back, And there were a

830
00:40:42,942 --> 00:40:44,821
Speaker 1: lot of people were positive, but there was a very

831
00:40:44,902 --> 00:40:49,662
Speaker 1: vocal aspect of the neurodiverse community who was very angry

832
00:40:49,701 --> 00:40:51,861
Speaker 1: with me and said that I shouldn't say it and

833
00:40:52,382 --> 00:40:56,062
Speaker 1: trying to police my speech. And I just think I

834
00:40:56,062 --> 00:40:58,622
Speaker 1: think it was a gift what you shared, and it

835
00:40:58,661 --> 00:41:02,181
Speaker 1: will change the way I look at kids and parents.

836
00:41:02,221 --> 00:41:05,741
Speaker 1: Because I don't have an autistic child, and there's not

837
00:41:05,781 --> 00:41:09,022
Speaker 1: one in my immediate day to day life, I wouldn't

838
00:41:09,062 --> 00:41:10,862
Speaker 1: necessarily recognize those signs.

839
00:41:10,902 --> 00:41:13,421
Speaker 3: Yeah. I also think though, that it's interesting you say

840
00:41:13,462 --> 00:41:17,501
Speaker 3: that because this is just this experience is so widespread.

841
00:41:17,701 --> 00:41:21,062
Speaker 3: This is in of my friends that have kids. This

842
00:41:21,181 --> 00:41:24,102
Speaker 3: is a you know, a really significant portion of parents

843
00:41:24,142 --> 00:41:26,062
Speaker 3: that I know, And if you sit down at a

844
00:41:26,102 --> 00:41:29,582
Speaker 3: table with parents, this conversation will come up. And to

845
00:41:29,622 --> 00:41:32,782
Speaker 3: treat it with this, I saw a comment about radical

846
00:41:32,822 --> 00:41:36,142
Speaker 3: acceptance and positivity and how learning that their child had

847
00:41:36,142 --> 00:41:39,341
Speaker 3: this was their greatest gift. And I respect and I'm

848
00:41:39,422 --> 00:41:42,102
Speaker 3: really happy for that family. But I think that when

849
00:41:42,142 --> 00:41:45,341
Speaker 3: you layer on how you're meant to feel.

850
00:41:45,342 --> 00:41:46,582
Speaker 1: And become toxic positive.

851
00:41:46,622 --> 00:41:51,382
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I understand the complexity of it because I

852
00:41:51,462 --> 00:41:54,542
Speaker 2: talked to me are often about ADHD and one of

853
00:41:54,582 --> 00:41:56,221
Speaker 2: the things you often say to me and this, and

854
00:41:56,342 --> 00:41:59,422
Speaker 2: experts have said this to me, and every professional I've

855
00:41:59,462 --> 00:42:01,822
Speaker 2: ever seen they'll say, you know, one of the biggest

856
00:42:01,942 --> 00:42:04,022
Speaker 2: issues for a lot of kids who grow up with

857
00:42:04,062 --> 00:42:07,421
Speaker 2: the Neuer diversity is shame, right, to be seen that

858
00:42:07,542 --> 00:42:10,701
Speaker 2: their neurodiversity is a problem for other people. It makes

859
00:42:10,741 --> 00:42:13,622
Speaker 2: other people's lives hard, right, And the reason this is

860
00:42:13,741 --> 00:42:17,022
Speaker 2: very complex is it does make other people's lives hard.

861
00:42:17,382 --> 00:42:21,142
Speaker 2: Like you said before, Jesse, that all parents want is

862
00:42:21,181 --> 00:42:24,582
Speaker 2: for everybody to see how beautiful their kids are. That's true,

863
00:42:25,342 --> 00:42:28,661
Speaker 2: and your kid is your number one priority. But also

864
00:42:28,982 --> 00:42:32,341
Speaker 2: parents are people. Were just humans, like ordinary humans, with

865
00:42:32,422 --> 00:42:37,582
Speaker 2: finite resources, finite amount of energy, finite amounts of patience, patience,

866
00:42:37,622 --> 00:42:40,781
Speaker 2: and also finite amounts of knowledge about this stuff. The

867
00:42:40,942 --> 00:42:44,301
Speaker 2: average parent who has given a diagnosis for their kid

868
00:42:45,022 --> 00:42:48,261
Speaker 2: is not walking around, living and breathing what autism means,

869
00:42:48,261 --> 00:42:51,022
Speaker 2: what ADHD means, so they have to learn it is

870
00:42:51,102 --> 00:42:54,221
Speaker 2: difficult for them. It's okay for a parent. I think

871
00:42:54,261 --> 00:42:56,662
Speaker 2: it needs to be okay for a parent to say

872
00:42:57,382 --> 00:43:01,221
Speaker 2: this is exhausting. I am so stressed, and I am

873
00:43:01,342 --> 00:43:04,302
Speaker 2: so lonely, and I am so whatever, without being told

874
00:43:05,062 --> 00:43:09,661
Speaker 2: that they are being negative. However, the problem is I

875
00:43:09,701 --> 00:43:13,062
Speaker 2: don't want your kids and other kids with these issues

876
00:43:13,062 --> 00:43:16,701
Speaker 2: to feel like they are making their parents, teachers, care

877
00:43:16,781 --> 00:43:20,821
Speaker 2: as friends, lives hard. So it is a really complicated thing,

878
00:43:20,902 --> 00:43:24,341
Speaker 2: and I really respect and understand that, and I think

879
00:43:24,342 --> 00:43:26,102
Speaker 2: that you've already said this mere but the answer is

880
00:43:26,142 --> 00:43:29,021
Speaker 2: lots of different voices and nobody claiming you know, it's

881
00:43:29,062 --> 00:43:31,462
Speaker 2: true that someone like you and someone I mean like me,

882
00:43:31,542 --> 00:43:33,781
Speaker 2: I guess we have microphones in front of us and

883
00:43:33,862 --> 00:43:38,142
Speaker 2: have platforms and audiences and so it's like, well, that

884
00:43:38,261 --> 00:43:41,022
Speaker 2: experience will get lifted. But I think that this is

885
00:43:41,062 --> 00:43:43,742
Speaker 2: a very specific experience that, as you said, Jesse, affects

886
00:43:43,741 --> 00:43:46,902
Speaker 2: a lot of people. But we're just humans, and I

887
00:43:46,942 --> 00:43:51,381
Speaker 2: think sometimes you're allowed to say this is really fucking difficult.

888
00:43:52,741 --> 00:43:55,222
Speaker 2: Thank you out louders for being here with us today

889
00:43:55,382 --> 00:43:57,661
Speaker 2: as always, and to our fabulous team for putting this

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00:43:57,701 --> 00:43:59,982
Speaker 2: show together. We're going to be back in your ears tomorrow.

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00:44:00,022 --> 00:44:00,902
Speaker 1: Bye.

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00:44:02,022 --> 00:44:04,502
Speaker 3: Shout out to any Mum and Me as subscribers listening.

893
00:44:04,781 --> 00:44:06,901
Speaker 3: If you love the show and you want to support us,

894
00:44:07,181 --> 00:44:09,502
Speaker 3: subscribing to Mum and Me I is the very best

895
00:44:09,741 --> 00:44:12,582
Speaker 3: way to do so. There's a link in the episode description.