Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mama Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 1: When you're looking at mastering effective communication, there are three
Speaker 1: different fundamental types of conversations that occur in every interaction,
Speaker 1: right and the biggest chance of miscommunication is when one
Speaker 1: person thinks they're having one type of conversation and someone
Speaker 1: else thinks they're having another. As I was prepping for
Speaker 1: the show and reading about this, I was having a
Speaker 1: text argument with someone. It was a man, and he
Speaker 1: thought we were having a.
Speaker 3: Practical, practical conversation and emotional conversation.
Speaker 1: And then I realized in the course of the conversation
Speaker 1: that I was having an emotional conversation about how I feel.
Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Mom and Mia out Loud and
Speaker 2: to our Friday show, where you know, we don't do news.
Speaker 2: We just do talking. Nothing from the outside is breaking
Speaker 2: into our bubble. Today is also a public holiday, of course,
Speaker 2: it's an Zac Day, but we thought we would do
Speaker 2: an episode for you anyway, because you might have been
Speaker 2: up since really early at the dawn service. You might
Speaker 2: be baking anzac Vicki's. You might just be going to
Speaker 2: the beach, but yeah, what you deserved them.
Speaker 3: You might have the day off. There are some hard
Speaker 3: working out ladders who are working today a lot.
Speaker 2: But anyway, we digress.
Speaker 3: I'm Holly wayIn right, I'm Mere Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 2: And on today's show, when was the last time you
Speaker 2: cried in front of someone else? And would you tell
Speaker 2: a complete stranger the answer to that question? Welcome to
Speaker 2: the list of magic questions, which are shortcuts to connection,
Speaker 2: plus one of the twenty five lip products in my handbag,
Speaker 2: a book and an article about a cosmetic procedure you've
Speaker 2: likely never heard of, its recommendations, and our best and worst,
Speaker 2: which include camping, nicoles, a family sick fest, and Nana singing.
Speaker 2: But first, Mere Friedman, in.
Speaker 1: Case you missed it, being polite to your chat GPT
Speaker 1: bot could be doing some damage to the world. This
Speaker 1: is confusing news for everyone who uses phrases like please
Speaker 1: and thank you when they talk to an AI tool
Speaker 1: like chat GPT. I do I always say please.
Speaker 2: Me too, I'm told to do it.
Speaker 1: I don't really say thank you. But what it does
Speaker 1: is that it increases the amount of energy required to
Speaker 1: process whatever you've asked the chatbot to do. That's what
Speaker 1: Sam Altman, who is the boss of Open Ai, has
Speaker 1: said this week when someone asked him about the electricity
Speaker 1: that powers AI and all the energy required, and he
Speaker 1: said that politeness increases costs for his company by tens
Speaker 1: of millions of dollars per year. Now, for those not
Speaker 1: yet using AI, you can do all sorts of things
Speaker 1: for free, so it doesn't cost you directly to say
Speaker 1: please and thank you in case you're wondering, and it
Speaker 1: doesn't change the accuracy or the quality of the results
Speaker 1: that you get. It just means that the computer has
Speaker 1: to think a bit harder before answering you.
Speaker 2: So just about extra words or is it about those words?
Speaker 2: In particular?
Speaker 1: It's about extra words and phrases, and it has to
Speaker 1: be polite back to you. Now, there are two reasons
Speaker 1: why people tend to use thank you and please if
Speaker 1: they do. The first is ethically because it's a robot,
Speaker 1: but maybe we don't want to be mean to the robots.
Speaker 1: And the second is just in case the robots take over,
Speaker 1: we want to, you know, fitting good with them.
Speaker 3: Reason I would say is that it is about setting
Speaker 3: a precedent if you get into the habit of barking orders,
Speaker 3: which I have found with my Siri, with my like
Speaker 3: all of the things that I tell to do things.
Speaker 3: And I think, firstly, I don't want my daughter just
Speaker 3: hearing me yell orders at things all the time. And secondly,
Speaker 3: if I speak to something that is serving me like that, yeah,
Speaker 3: then how long until it bleeds into the workplace where
Speaker 3: you know your boss is speaking to the assistant with
Speaker 3: the same level of.
Speaker 1: Oh, you talk to someone in the service industry.
Speaker 3: Exactly, real human without a please and think.
Speaker 2: But then I was also told, and maybe this isn't true,
Speaker 2: but when we have had a training and things is
Speaker 2: that if you're polite to it, it will be polite
Speaker 2: to you, which is the same aunt in the world,
Speaker 2: right karma. You put out what you want to get back,
Speaker 2: and so I don't want my robot to shout at
Speaker 2: me no.
Speaker 1: But it takes more energy, so it uses up more
Speaker 1: energy and the cost of energy. Obviously, the energy required
Speaker 1: to process all of the AI queries is powered by electricity, which.
Speaker 3: And Holly, you're onto something, because there actually was a
Speaker 3: study that found they had people all across the world
Speaker 3: because manners are very different in different countries, there are
Speaker 3: different versions of please and thank you, and they found
Speaker 3: that you got thirty percent worse results without manners. So
Speaker 3: you're on chat GPT whatever it is. They will omit information.
Speaker 3: Sometimes there are errors, like apparently you get better results
Speaker 3: if you speak.
Speaker 1: That's finally what chat GPT told me. I did some
Speaker 1: research this morning and it said it will not affect
Speaker 1: the quality. It does talk back to you. However, you
Speaker 1: talk to it so like I've trained mine that it'll
Speaker 1: just be I'll be like, thanks, that's an awesome answer.
Speaker 1: Could you try doing it with a little bit more
Speaker 1: brevity or in bullet points, and then it'll go thanks
Speaker 1: so much for your detailed feedback. That's amazing, And it's like,
Speaker 1: are you feel cool? Like it's I think so much
Speaker 1: of what people are scared about with AI is that
Speaker 1: it's so dehumanized, and it is because you are actually
Speaker 1: talking to people and things that don't exist. But by
Speaker 1: making it as human as possible, I don't know.
Speaker 2: So res Altman suggesting that we should stop saying please
Speaker 2: and thank you, because he's like, if you're worried about
Speaker 2: the environmental impacts of AI, then the way to deal
Speaker 2: with it is short and to the point.
Speaker 1: Not really, he was more tongue in cheek. It's costing
Speaker 1: us a lot of money more, but it's worth it
Speaker 1: if it means that the world is being populated by
Speaker 1: better manners. I will bear that cost.
Speaker 3: This is the most Silicon Valley, just telling us that
Speaker 3: it's less efficient to be polite. That's where Silicon Valley
Speaker 3: leads us.
Speaker 2: I like MEA's theory that we're playing the long game
Speaker 2: and we have to be nice to our future over lords.
Speaker 1: Like they're keeping a list somewhere.
Speaker 2: They'd be like me is the one who.
Speaker 1: Always says that thanks, great job. She complimented my outfit.
Speaker 3: How do I become a super communicator? You know those
Speaker 3: people who can talk to just about anyone about anything,
Speaker 3: and not just small talk. They find themselves in deep,
Speaker 3: interesting conversations with strangers. Apparently there is a name for
Speaker 3: these people, and they are super communicators, and any of
Speaker 3: us can become one with the right training. A new
Speaker 3: podcast by Charles Dowig called super Communicators explores the science
Speaker 3: of connection and offers very practical advice on how to
Speaker 3: have more interesting and fulfilling conversations. Here's a little bit
Speaker 3: of that podcast.
Speaker 4: The next time you're on an airplane or on a bus,
Speaker 4: or you're at a party, or you're making small talk
Speaker 4: with someone, turn to them and ask them a deep question.
Speaker 4: And you might think to yourself, this is going to
Speaker 4: be weird, it's going to be really awkward. But I
Speaker 4: think what you'll find is that if you ask a
Speaker 4: question with genuine curiosity, the other person is delighted to
Speaker 4: answer it, and then you should ask another question and
Speaker 4: share something about yourself and then eventually ask them, so,
Speaker 4: just out of curiosity, when's the last time you cried
Speaker 4: in front of another person.
Speaker 3: Central to this is something called magical questions. They have
Speaker 3: been studied and determined by psychologists to increase intimacy between
Speaker 3: two people. And at the most basic level, it means
Speaker 3: that you meet someone right and you just have a
Speaker 3: chat and they go, I'm a teacher.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 3: The logical next question for a lot of people would
Speaker 3: be what school, what year, what long have you been
Speaker 3: how long have you been a teacher? Exactly? And we
Speaker 3: know that they're like more close questions, and the advice
Speaker 3: here is that your next question should be why what
Speaker 3: made you go into teaching?
Speaker 2: I would feel like that was had some judgement, me too,
Speaker 2: why a teacher?
Speaker 3: Yes? Why would you ever? Because I wanted to be
Speaker 3: What why questions prompt people to talk about their values, beliefs,
Speaker 3: or experiences, which brings us to the thirty six questions
Speaker 3: that lead to love? Do you to remember this essay?
Speaker 3: It was published who just over ten years ago. It
Speaker 3: was modern Love Essay originally, and then the New York
Speaker 3: Times published all the questions And it came originally from
Speaker 3: a study called the fast Friends Procedure, which doesn't sound
Speaker 3: very sexy, but a woman named Mandy len Catron was
Speaker 3: interested in this research and she found herself on a
Speaker 3: date with a man that she was interested in, and
Speaker 3: they were talking about whether you can fall in love
Speaker 3: with anyone and relationships and connection, and she said, well,
Speaker 3: there's this study. Let's go through these thirty six questions.
Speaker 3: And she couldn't believe how she felt at the end
Speaker 3: of it, so she pens this modern Love essay, which
Speaker 3: then goes viral. Ten years have passed, they're still together,
Speaker 3: they're getting married, she's interviewed on this podcast. The key
Speaker 3: to those questions are that they're not about politics, they're
Speaker 3: not about the TV show you're watching. They are about
Speaker 3: mutual and progressive self disclosure. They're not about the facts
Speaker 3: of our lives, but how we feel about them. So
Speaker 3: there are questions like do you have a secret hunch
Speaker 3: about how you will die? If you could wake up
Speaker 3: tomorrow having gained any one quality or ability, what would
Speaker 3: it be? Or how do you feel about your relationship
Speaker 3: with your mother? Holly? In a way, this seems obvious,
Speaker 3: right right?
Speaker 2: Question on the plane?
Speaker 3: Why questions? Open ended? Why are we so reluctant to
Speaker 3: ask why questions?
Speaker 2: Because they're no scense. It's so funny because I actually
Speaker 2: I love this because small talk is exhausting, right, and
Speaker 2: I hate it, and I'd much rather have a proper
Speaker 2: conversation with somebody in a social situation. But if somebody
Speaker 2: turned round to me on an airplane and said to me,
Speaker 2: how do you really feel about your relationship with your mother?
Speaker 2: I would probably push them out of the door.
Speaker 3: Well, that's why the way that it's designed, these thirty
Speaker 3: six questions is progressive exactly. So it starts don't start back.
Speaker 3: One of the early ones is dinner party, alive or dead?
Speaker 3: Who comes like something? That's a bit of a game.
Speaker 3: And then as it goes on you kind of.
Speaker 2: Because once you start really telling the truth, because small
Speaker 2: talk is basically like armor for us all to wear,
Speaker 2: right where we can all rob up near each other
Speaker 2: in social situations, but we're not giving any vulnerability and
Speaker 2: no one has to give any back. We're just all
Speaker 2: just there like smiling and like clinking eyeglasses whatever. And
Speaker 2: as soon as you start actually telling the truth about things,
Speaker 2: you feel very vulnerable because I don't know you, I
Speaker 2: don't trust you, right, so you have to build a
Speaker 2: level of trust for me to tell you that I
Speaker 2: have been in work situations not at MoMA MIA, but
Speaker 2: over the years of my working life where you know,
Speaker 2: you'll go to like management training and the first thing
Speaker 2: is we're going to play an ice breaker game and
Speaker 2: they'll ask a question, a really personal question, tell us
Speaker 2: a secret about something you did you're ashamed of, and
Speaker 2: I'm like, I will be making up the answer to
Speaker 2: that question.
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 2: Because you have to earn this y the right to
Speaker 2: have somebody's vulnerability, And interviewers know this. Right when you're
Speaker 2: interviewing someone, you have to get there quite quickly, but
Speaker 2: at least you're already engaged in a contract, which is
Speaker 2: like I'm going to ask you things that I wouldn't
Speaker 2: ask you if I make you on a plane. M
Speaker 2: You know what I mean.
Speaker 3: I think as well, central to that is the mutual
Speaker 3: self disclosure. So I think you would get a totally
Speaker 3: different result if we sat down and I said, may Or,
Speaker 3: I'm going to ask you thirty six questions in a row,
Speaker 3: and then I went, it would be a totally interview.
Speaker 3: Well that's an interview rather than having two people go
Speaker 3: all right, we're entering into a contract where we're going
Speaker 3: to maybe share things we would not ordinarily.
Speaker 1: It's so funny when you sent me this podcast to
Speaker 1: listen to, because Jason, my husband, has always described me
Speaker 1: as a super communicator, and I'd never heard the expression
Speaker 1: other than him using it to describe me. I mean,
Speaker 1: I kind of understood what he meant. Obviously, he's someone
Speaker 1: who doesn't like talking very much. He's deeply introverted, and
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say that I'm extroverted. But this whole thing,
Speaker 1: I kept waiting for the aha moment in it, but
Speaker 1: it is all. It just describes me. And I don't
Speaker 1: say that to big note myself because it's often makes
Speaker 1: people uncomfortable, like I seem to have missed the part
Speaker 1: where you learn how to do small talk. And that's
Speaker 1: why No Filter suited me for so long as a podcast,
Speaker 1: because it gave me permission to do this, which is
Speaker 1: my natural default mechanism. So we were away on holidays
Speaker 1: last week and I met someone in the bar. They
Speaker 1: were sitting with a mutual friend, and I started talking
Speaker 1: to her, and I won't disclose what we spoke about,
Speaker 1: but within about two or three questions, we were just
Speaker 1: talking about something in her life that was very, very deep.
Speaker 1: And sometimes I just go, how did I get here?
Speaker 1: Like I actually can't even deconstruct so the way I'm
Speaker 1: able to do that, And I've never met anyone who
Speaker 1: objects to it, like people are usually very disarmed by it.
Speaker 3: I think that's what they're trying to say in this podcast,
Speaker 3: but also that there are some people where this does
Speaker 3: come naturally, and for those of us who maybe it
Speaker 3: doesn't come as naturally and we're a little bit more
Speaker 3: shy or reticent to open up a conversation, sometimes we
Speaker 3: look at people like you and go, what are the
Speaker 3: mechanics behind that? How do yousel?
Speaker 1: Closure is important in the early reviews for No Filter,
Speaker 1: people would always say, Oh, she talks too much about
Speaker 1: herself about me, And that's very deliberate because the way
Speaker 1: you get someone to trust you and the way you
Speaker 1: make them feel like it's more of a conversation and
Speaker 1: less of an interrogation is by being vulnerable first. And
Speaker 1: so I would do that, and what we learned is
Speaker 1: to actually just cut out my bits because no one
Speaker 1: needs to hear my stories. But it works very well.
Speaker 2: So it also can be a good deflection though, because
Speaker 2: if I'm in a small talk situation and I was
Speaker 2: just away on a trip where every day I had
Speaker 2: to sit next to, like not even every day, every
Speaker 2: meal time set next people I didn't know, I don't
Speaker 2: really want to talk about myself in those situations. So
Speaker 2: getting other people to talk about themselves is the key,
Speaker 2: which is a little unfair and a little unbalanced, but
Speaker 2: people love talking about themselves. Once you get them going
Speaker 2: on something, they're passionate.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for me, it's an energy conserving tool as well.
Speaker 1: In a social situation, it's an energy conserving tool because
Speaker 1: most people really do like talking about themselves. You're life hole,
Speaker 1: and it means that I can deflect. I once went
Speaker 1: to dinner with two women who are a couple, and
Speaker 1: I was quite friends with them, and a little way
Speaker 1: in they'd obviously been talking about me, because they went, no,
Speaker 1: that's enough questions for us. We want to ask you
Speaker 1: how you're going.
Speaker 2: I always hate that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when I'm like, oh, okay, well, clearly I've gone
Speaker 1: into interviewer mode, which I do when I'm tired or
Speaker 1: you know, feeling like talking.
Speaker 3: The second episode had a bunch of stuff about nonverbal communication,
Speaker 3: which you know we talked about a lot, but it
Speaker 3: was it was really specific. So apparently like confidence can
Speaker 3: be read by the distance between your ear lobes and
Speaker 3: your shoulders. That was a big one. What do you
Speaker 3: mean so posture? That's why posture is seen as really important,
Speaker 3: Like when someone stands up straight like they can often
Speaker 3: make you feel a lot more at ease, that sort
Speaker 3: of thing. The second thing was hands on the table,
Speaker 3: so they said that if you're in a business meeting,
Speaker 3: or if you're in a word scenario, let's say you're
Speaker 3: running a meeting, people might walk out and go, I
Speaker 3: don't know, I just got a weird vibe. I just
Speaker 3: wasn't feeling it, and it'll be some unconscious thing that
Speaker 3: they can't even name. But if you had your hands
Speaker 3: under the table, they don't have the same level of trust.
Speaker 1: Bloody, language is really important, so you should never cross
Speaker 1: your arms, always, never have your energy blocked. You will
Speaker 1: instinctively do that as a way to sort of protect
Speaker 1: yourself without even realizing it. The ideal thing is for
Speaker 1: someone to show the inside of their wrists. If you
Speaker 1: can find a way to show the inside of your
Speaker 1: wrists and your palms, that's very disarmy.
Speaker 2: Like dong rolling on their back.
Speaker 1: Correct. And the other way to really show someone that
Speaker 1: you're listening is to tilt your head a dog. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like a dog. You just go like that and raise
Speaker 1: your eyebrows.
Speaker 3: The raising eyebrows it's called an eyebrow flash. You're not
Speaker 3: meant to do it too often, but it says like
Speaker 3: I'm interested in compelled by what you're saying. But I
Speaker 3: was thinking about the impact of injectibles, and our face
Speaker 3: is not moving like maybe they once if you can't
Speaker 3: actually move your eyebrows or even like what do they
Speaker 3: call it when you're like replicating or mirroring the expressions
Speaker 3: of the person you're talking to.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, as part of this book Charles Doig
Speaker 1: is really interesting, and he said, when you're looking at
Speaker 1: mastering effective communication, there are three different fundamental types of
Speaker 1: conversations that occur in every interaction, right, And the biggest
Speaker 1: chance of miscommunication is when one person thinks they're having
Speaker 1: one type of conversation and someone else thinks they're having another.
Speaker 1: So the three types of practical conversations, which is, you know,
Speaker 1: decision making or problem solving. The second one is emotional conversations,
Speaker 1: how do we feel about feelings, empathy? And the third
Speaker 1: one is social conversations, and that's exploring identity, relationships and
Speaker 1: social roles. And it's so funny that as I was
Speaker 1: prepping for the show and reading about this, I was
Speaker 1: having a text argument with someone and they thought it
Speaker 1: was a man could have been my husband, and he
Speaker 1: thought we were having.
Speaker 3: A practical, a practical conversation, an emotional conversation, and he was.
Speaker 1: Very confused by the enormity of my responses to something
Speaker 1: that seemed really practical. And then I realized in the
Speaker 1: course of the conversation that I was having an emotional
Speaker 1: conversation about how I feel. And I think that happens
Speaker 1: a lot. I know it happens a lot with me.
Speaker 1: When I'm talking to men, including my sons, I'm always
Speaker 1: having an emotional conversation, but they, in most cases think
Speaker 1: that they're having a practical conversation.
Speaker 2: So when was the last time he cried in front
Speaker 2: of someone else? Jesse Stevens.
Speaker 3: The last time I cried in front of someone else
Speaker 3: was in in public cry. I cried in public, which
Speaker 3: is always the worst. You know, things the wheels are
Speaker 3: falling off. Oh yeah, when I was at a medical
Speaker 3: center because Luna had hurt herself and she would not
Speaker 3: stop crying, and I just broke down and the woman
Speaker 3: at reception was so so lovely. Luca walked in, he'd
Speaker 3: been at work and came to get us. He went
Speaker 3: to Luna, and then the woman at reception said, I
Speaker 3: think your wife needs a cuddle.
Speaker 5: Oh, And then that made me cry more, and I
Speaker 5: just I got a mask because I went maybe if
Speaker 5: I wear the mask high enough, no one will see
Speaker 5: the tears under the mask.
Speaker 3: But that was not my finest moment. When was the
Speaker 3: last time you cried?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: I have tried very hard to never cry in front
Speaker 2: of other people, even Brent, I hate it. I like
Speaker 2: to cry by myself. That's my preferred crying situation. But
Speaker 2: I did cry, yeah, in front of Brent. He's probably
Speaker 2: the only person who sees me cry very much. And
Speaker 2: it was one of those frustrated It was about tax.
Speaker 2: Of course, Tax makes me cry, just like I feel
Speaker 2: so overwhelmed by all this and why aren't you helping
Speaker 2: me with it? And he's like, I can't. It was
Speaker 2: one of those conversations which was not Again, he probably
Speaker 2: thought he was having a practical conversation. I thought we
Speaker 2: were going to see the bookkeeper and I'm like.
Speaker 6: But you don't understand.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry overwhelmed and.
Speaker 3: Tax is never not emotional.
Speaker 2: Maya.
Speaker 1: I went through a long period of crying a lot,
Speaker 1: including at work when I was really overwhelmed, really frustrated,
Speaker 1: which is there's just nothing worse than crying in a
Speaker 1: work situation because women will often cry in those situations
Speaker 1: because they're frustrated or they're frustrated with themselves or whatever
Speaker 1: it is. And that was the case with me. I
Speaker 1: was just annoyed at myself. But that was a long
Speaker 1: time ago. I haven't cried at work for ages, not
Speaker 1: for years, but it would have been with Jason he's
Speaker 1: usually the only one that sees me cry. And again,
Speaker 1: not as much like when I was going through perimenopause,
Speaker 1: I reckon I cried every day. I was so easy
Speaker 1: to cry, not always in front of people, often in
Speaker 1: front of people, and to the point where I just
Speaker 1: felt like I had no control. And there've been other
Speaker 1: times when when I was taking you know, I still do,
Speaker 1: but at the start of taking antimsa iity medication, I
Speaker 1: sort of didn't cry for about five or six years
Speaker 1: full stop. But there's something that's just so vulnerable in
Speaker 1: crying in front of other people.
Speaker 3: You know. The thing that I love the most about
Speaker 3: this is that with talk and the election and politics
Speaker 3: and vision and all that kind of stuff, the idea
Speaker 3: that there are so many other things to talk about, yeah,
Speaker 3: and so many other things that are actually connective to
Speaker 3: you that we ignore that we can find in other people,
Speaker 3: and that there's a lot of whether it's surface or not,
Speaker 3: but there are ways to have enriching and meaningful conversations
Speaker 3: with literally anyone.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Can I ask you if our out loud as are
Speaker 2: going to a long weeken barbecue, what do you reckon?
Speaker 2: Are three of these magic questions that aren't necessarily like
Speaker 2: the really deep show me all your insides, Yeah, but
Speaker 2: are really good ones from the list for that kind
Speaker 2: of situation.
Speaker 3: This one, and I remember reading something about it. Someone
Speaker 3: clever has said it before, which is some version of
Speaker 3: what are you most passionate about? What are you passionate about?
Speaker 3: What are you interested in at the moment? Something like that.
Speaker 1: I know Elizabeth Gilbert, that's what she asked, because you
Speaker 1: can imagine meeting someone like that, they're constantly people wanting
Speaker 1: to talk to them. And it was a very good
Speaker 1: deflecting conversation. She said, what are you excited about right now?
Speaker 1: I thought that was great because in terms of passionate,
Speaker 1: that can almost be a bit of pressure, like, oh god, I'm.
Speaker 3: What are you excited about?
Speaker 1: What are you excited about right now? And immediately I
Speaker 1: could tell her. I told her about this book that
Speaker 1: I was, you know, in the middle of writing, and
Speaker 1: she ended up endorsing that book. It was such a
Speaker 1: clever question because I could tell she didn't want to talk,
Speaker 1: but it was a generous question, and you know, I
Speaker 1: thought it was really it was a good one, what
Speaker 1: are you excited about right now? Also, I just always
Speaker 1: ask what should I watch next?
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's good small talk if you're.
Speaker 1: Reaching for something. I know that small talk. It's not
Speaker 1: a particularly deep question, but it can. The key I
Speaker 1: think is follow up questions. When you're talking to someone,
Speaker 1: you've just got to listen to what they're saying and
Speaker 1: look for the openings in what they're saying. That are
Speaker 1: the tangents out loud.
Speaker 2: As in a moment. It's stuff to read and stuff
Speaker 2: to smear on your mouth. Come back for our recommendations, vibes, ideas, atmosphere,
Speaker 2: something usual file.
Speaker 1: This is my best recommendation. Good.
Speaker 2: Look, it's Friday, so of course you want to help
Speaker 2: me set up your weekend. Who wants to go first?
Speaker 2: You two have been away, You've probably got someone. Yes.
Speaker 3: I actually I've brilliant one.
Speaker 2: I have such a good one.
Speaker 3: I have a book and I had heard so many
Speaker 3: people recommend this book. But it is historical fiction, and
Speaker 3: I thought it sounded like hard work, and I was like,
Speaker 3: I want to relax. It just delivered everything that I
Speaker 3: possibly wanted, and every review is spot on. It is
Speaker 3: a book called The Safe Keep by yah Elle vander Odin.
Speaker 3: It was nominated, I think it was long listed for
Speaker 3: the Booker Prize this year. Like it is very, very buzzy,
Speaker 3: but it's about a woman named Isabelle who lives in
Speaker 3: this house in the Netherlands post World War Two, so
Speaker 3: it's nineteen sixty one. Her brother's girlfriend comes and stays
Speaker 3: with her for a summer, and it's about the relationship
Speaker 3: that evolves between the two of them. It's sexy, it's
Speaker 3: a sexy book, but there's also a fascinating twist that
Speaker 3: complicates the whole thing. It is stunningly written, and it's
Speaker 3: like quite poetic, but also really insightful about what Europe
Speaker 3: looked like in the decades after World War Two. I
Speaker 3: imagined that, and I've studied World War Two. I didn't
Speaker 3: realize that what country you went back to, whether you
Speaker 3: went back to if you were a Jewish person who
Speaker 3: ended up in the camps in World War Two, I
Speaker 3: thought that countries looked after you, that Sweden or France
Speaker 3: or the Netherlands looked after you very different depending on
Speaker 3: where you went back to. And this is about what
Speaker 3: was lost and what's yours and fascinating, fascinating. So it's
Speaker 3: called The Safe Keep. You must read it.
Speaker 2: I'm going to jump in because I've got a silly one,
Speaker 2: whereas I think is a smart too, because it's just
Speaker 2: a lipstick, you know how, maybe.
Speaker 1: Not all from lipsticks are very important.
Speaker 2: We were recently recording our Apple Show. Do you remember
Speaker 2: we were before our Apple Show recently? Emilia Lester was
Speaker 2: there and she just said to me, Holly showed me
Speaker 2: all the lip products in your bag.
Speaker 3: You know how much at open questions, Flia is such
Speaker 3: she should write the thirty six questions for hollywaen I
Speaker 3: fall in love with you and the first question is
Speaker 3: I think that's.
Speaker 1: Maybe why shee I fell in love so fast as friends.
Speaker 2: Because I do always have twenty five lip products in
Speaker 2: my bag at any one time. And today or yesterday,
Speaker 2: I was clearing out my bag and I realized the
Speaker 2: most used because it's the one I have to replace
Speaker 2: the most often. And I was like, I should just
Speaker 2: recommend that it's a bit basic, but hey, and it is.
Speaker 2: Nas it's like a lip bar, it's a bag, it's
Speaker 2: a barm so it's like shiny shear.
Speaker 3: Okay, it's sheer, but it's pigmented.
Speaker 2: It's pigmented, but just a little bit. But the good
Speaker 2: thing about it is because it's called afterglow Right. The
Speaker 2: shade I was called Dolceavida and it's forty six dollars,
Speaker 2: which is a lot of money. But the thing that
Speaker 2: is great about it and I have used many times,
Speaker 2: is because it's so popular at Dubecity. Soh m COD
Speaker 2: do a version very similar, even in the same square
Speaker 2: thing because the thing I love about the square thing
Speaker 2: it's easy to find in my bag with all the
Speaker 2: other lip products.
Speaker 1: And also don't pull out a tampon misteak, you.
Speaker 2: Just reach for the square one. Mco Dupe one is
Speaker 2: eleven bucks and they've got the same shade, what's very
Speaker 2: similar shade.
Speaker 3: I've used that dole. They're brilliant and they're really good
Speaker 3: if you don't want to look like you've got a
Speaker 3: full on lipy, like if you want something to.
Speaker 2: Like it, it's a little bit done but not color yeap.
Speaker 2: And the other thing is if you don't have like
Speaker 2: just a lip balm and your lips are feeling dry,
Speaker 2: it's like that in between and then in between the
Speaker 2: MC and the nas Mecha Dooo one too. It's about
Speaker 2: thirty bucks, and so they're like a lip balm with
Speaker 2: a bit of tint that I realize I use down
Speaker 2: to the absolute stop all the.
Speaker 3: You know what, I'm just going to throw in an
Speaker 3: extra one. This is a product that I use every
Speaker 3: single day that I just every now and then go,
Speaker 3: this is a great products. Lana Lips Lips with a
Speaker 3: little bit of pigment. Single day I put that on
Speaker 3: my lip and it just I never get chapped and
Speaker 3: it's just so good love.
Speaker 2: Okay, maya take this away.
Speaker 1: I always get really excited about recommending a book or
Speaker 1: a TV show, and then I realized that my record
Speaker 1: are just whatever you guys have recommended. But like a
Speaker 1: month later, so I've had to dig deep and I
Speaker 1: actually I'm going to recommend an article I read on
Speaker 1: Muma Mia about leg lengthening surgery. This is a bit
Speaker 1: of a personal obsession of mine, not because I want
Speaker 1: to have it done, but just because I've always been
Speaker 1: fascinated by it and I didn't know that it was
Speaker 1: happening in Australia and I didn't know that women were
Speaker 1: getting it.
Speaker 3: Wait, so it's an elective. Women in Australia can choose
Speaker 3: to get their legs lengthened taller.
Speaker 1: So it's a surgery that was originally I guess created
Speaker 1: or pioneered for people who had defects in their legs
Speaker 1: or needed to be taller for you know, I guess
Speaker 1: health reasons, or had made like.
Speaker 3: A discrepancy and they're left in their right because that
Speaker 3: can cause heaps.
Speaker 1: Of issues, exactly right. And so now in the same
Speaker 1: way that a lot of things that are now used
Speaker 1: esthetically were originally used for medical reasons, so it is
Speaker 1: with leg lengthening surgery. So what happens is they basically
Speaker 1: break your legs. They break both of your legs, They
Speaker 1: put them in cages, and then there are like magnets
Speaker 1: in the bone and they keep stretching them like by
Speaker 1: a millimeter.
Speaker 3: Every stay because you would need something the bone.
Speaker 1: So what it does is that it's like your bone
Speaker 1: thinks I learned this in the article. Your bone thinks
Speaker 1: it's been fractured, so it rushes to repair it, and
Speaker 1: it like builds new bone around so it's taller. You
Speaker 1: can get a few centimeters. It's really disturbing just where
Speaker 1: so in America a lot of men are doing it.
Speaker 1: You know, short kings. Not everybody can marry a cock edman.
Speaker 1: Some short kings just want to be taller, and so
Speaker 1: a lot of men used to get it. I read
Speaker 1: a really long piece in GQ about it many years ago,
Speaker 1: but now it's not a common procedure. It's very controversial
Speaker 1: among orthopedic surgeons because it's correct purely elective. I mean,
Speaker 1: the recovery and the pain and all of those things
Speaker 1: is immense. It's very expensive. You don't get anything back
Speaker 1: on Medicare, which is actually good to know because if
Speaker 1: that's where our Medicare dollars were going, it would be
Speaker 1: a problem. But it's just a fascinating article. We'll put
Speaker 1: a link to it in the show notes after the
Speaker 1: break the camping, Nicole family, holiday sickness, and some feedback
Speaker 1: for Nana. It is our best and Worst of the week.
Speaker 3: Want unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday
Speaker 3: and Thursday exclusively for Mum and MEA subscribers. Follow the
Speaker 3: link in the show notes to get us in your
Speaker 3: ears five days a week. And a huge thank you
Speaker 3: to all our current subscribers.
Speaker 1: It's time for best and Worst, the peaks the troughs
Speaker 1: of our lives. Holly, you go first, what's your worst
Speaker 1: of the week?
Speaker 2: So regular outlouders well know, and as you certainly do
Speaker 2: that every Easter I go camping with my original Mothers group,
Speaker 2: so much so that I have written a book inspired by.
Speaker 3: That weekend I went. It's good weather for Hollies camp.
Speaker 3: It was because sometimes it's miserable.
Speaker 2: Oh Easter weekend was glorious. So it's my best and
Speaker 2: my worst. But the worst was the fact that it's
Speaker 2: making an appearance of my worst is actually sparked by
Speaker 2: an out louder's post this week, which made me realize
Speaker 2: a cold hard truth about myself. Right, so, an out
Speaker 2: louder called Rose May Foster posted in the out Louder's
Speaker 2: Facebook gred, this was so good that she is in
Speaker 2: the coal and she is going camping for the first
Speaker 2: time with a group of families, just like I do.
Speaker 2: Just so any out louders who aren't familiar with our
Speaker 2: law no nicoles. It was a term coined by the
Speaker 2: great Australian comedian Geraldine Hickey, but it's the name for
Speaker 2: a woman in a friendship group who always does the organizing.
Speaker 2: She's the one who books the table and knows sends
Speaker 2: around the menu and all that. In the Easter context,
Speaker 2: our out louder is in a coal and so she said.
Speaker 2: The weeks before, she was sending messages to the group
Speaker 2: being like, should we group by this? Should we group
Speaker 2: by that? And everyone was like, don't worry about it,
Speaker 2: We're chill, don't worry about it.
Speaker 1: She right.
Speaker 2: Then it comes to have we got enough eggs? She
Speaker 2: means Easter eggs? Yes, is the collective reply. But a
Speaker 2: nicole knows to dig deeper, says Rose. Person one has
Speaker 2: big eggs, Person two has small eggs. Person three has
Speaker 2: little kinder bunnies. Yes, there's enough chocolate to feed all
Speaker 2: the kids, but do they all have the same or
Speaker 2: will there be tears? Am I the only one who
Speaker 2: thinks that the kids will crack it if the bunny
Speaker 2: brings visibly different things for different kids. Don't even get
Speaker 2: me started on the baskets and the ears. And one
Speaker 2: of the girls is like, oh, that's awesome. We should
Speaker 2: have just let you organize it, and she's.
Speaker 3: Like, I'm losing my mind.
Speaker 2: She was on your trip. She has could have been
Speaker 2: my friend.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I haven't had to buy Easter eggs for children for
Speaker 1: some time now, and I've been alarmed to see these
Speaker 1: new trend of Easter baskets all over social media, and
Speaker 1: people making Easter baskets almost like a Christmas stocking filled
Speaker 1: with presents.
Speaker 2: Yeah, sometimes we don't do any of that. But what
Speaker 2: this post made me realize is I am always the
Speaker 2: person who goes, don't worry about it, right, I'm always
Speaker 2: the person We've got loads of chocolate, don't even worry
Speaker 2: about it. I haven't even thought about it. And then
Speaker 2: I get there and go, oh, that's right. This nicole
Speaker 2: hates me, like, not me personally, but all I represent
Speaker 2: in the world, which is like she'll be long had
Speaker 2: looking them whole of mirrors. I have friends like this
Speaker 2: who will be the one who when your child is
Speaker 2: melting down because indeed, you only got them a shitty
Speaker 2: little kinder surprise and someone else got a giant six
Speaker 2: foot bunny has thought of that and has brought a spare.
Speaker 1: Also, you could use it as an opportunity to teach resilience.
Speaker 2: Well you could, And that's the way I look at it.
Speaker 1: Me capitalism.
Speaker 2: If my kid doesn't get the Easter egg of their dreams,
Speaker 2: deal with its sister anyway. So my worst realization that
Speaker 2: I am indeed a terrible friend in and the bane
Speaker 2: of all nicholes everywhere. But my best was the Easter
Speaker 2: camping because although I always moan about it, and we
Speaker 2: did indeed end up, I moan about the labor involved.
Speaker 2: We did end up sleeping on the floor because the
Speaker 2: blow up mattress collapsed. And the kids who are teenagers
Speaker 2: definitely are getting naughtier as they like in a different
Speaker 2: way than they were when they were little, and so
Speaker 2: there's more vigilance required in that regard, and sometimes there's
Speaker 2: where they were shoes and all that. It is actually
Speaker 2: definitely one of my favorite times of the year because
Speaker 2: these women that I go on this trip with and
Speaker 2: their partners, they are funny and we have known each
Speaker 2: other a long time, and watching the way the kids
Speaker 2: interact with each other is so entertained.
Speaker 1: How many kids are they now?
Speaker 2: There would be like fifteen kids, oh wow, maybe more.
Speaker 2: And the thing is is, you know that girls grow first,
Speaker 2: So the last few years the girls have been quite
Speaker 2: grown up and the boys haven't. And then this year
Speaker 2: all the boys are like six foot and they've.
Speaker 6: All got shoulders, like, oh wow, we're actually camping. We
Speaker 6: just a whole lot of people, but we still had
Speaker 6: to do an egg hunt, they still had to be
Speaker 6: even though they were like, we didn't need ag hunt.
Speaker 2: Then on Easter Sunder, they were all.
Speaker 1: Like, where where's the egg hut?
Speaker 2: And because Brent had gone off camping first without me
Speaker 2: because I was doing something else, and I met him there,
Speaker 2: obviously he hadn't remembered any of the eggs, so I
Speaker 2: had to do an early morning supermarket Easter bunny swoop
Speaker 2: on Sunday. Anyway, it was the best of times, the
Speaker 2: worst of times, and I loved it, and that was
Speaker 2: my used to camp.
Speaker 3: My worst was we went on holiday last week with
Speaker 3: the in laws with.
Speaker 2: Two together ye.
Speaker 3: Generations, that's what we were. It was delightful. But the
Speaker 3: day that we actually got there, Luna got sick, right,
Speaker 3: so she was sick, and then I think she managed
Speaker 3: to make everyone sick. There was tonsladis going around And
Speaker 3: I said, nearly every day, I said, I've actually never
Speaker 3: felt so well.
Speaker 2: You said that, I know, well.
Speaker 1: I wanted to touch wood, I wanted to go spit
Speaker 1: on the ground.
Speaker 3: YEP, I said, I am feeling because you know, you
Speaker 3: keep checking in, you go nap. Never felt better. I'm
Speaker 3: feeling really healthy. My throat is top notch.
Speaker 1: And she needed to say this a lot because in
Speaker 1: the past she's been patient zero that has infected the
Speaker 1: wide effect.
Speaker 3: And I needed everyone to know that I wasn't patient zero.
Speaker 3: Luna was taken up with her anyway. I keep going
Speaker 3: feeling great, looking great, just like I'm active lively. She said,
Speaker 3: never ever better, You ever felt better. And then on
Speaker 3: the Monday night, I went to bed, slept like a
Speaker 3: dream because I was feeling so well, and then at
Speaker 3: one am woke up and went, oh, And that's when
Speaker 3: the vomiting started. And for about nine hours I think
Speaker 3: on the hour, got up through up, oh, and it
Speaker 3: was like the first one, I went, maybe this is
Speaker 3: a one off. And then when the second one happened,
Speaker 3: I went, this is not a one off. And it
Speaker 3: just kept going. And what I forgot about food poisoning
Speaker 3: and I don't know what I ate, which is so annoying,
Speaker 3: and no one else got sick, so no idea what
Speaker 3: it was. But once the throwing up stopped, I felt
Speaker 3: like shit for days, like the dehydration and your whole
Speaker 3: body sore and you're tired, appetite wasn't great. Ended up
Speaker 3: having to go to the doctor because I was like,
Speaker 3: I still feel terrible, and she said, You've got to
Speaker 3: be careful with dairy and sugar, and I was like,
Speaker 3: Eastree is my favorite. So what I had to do
Speaker 3: was gone by a whole lot of eggs on sale,
Speaker 3: put them aside, and go. Your Easter is coming. Your
Speaker 3: Easter will come anyway. My best was that it was
Speaker 3: actually it was lovely to be away, and I just
Speaker 3: got so much sleep.
Speaker 1: I got so much.
Speaker 3: Sleep, Like Luna would get up early, hang out with Nana.
Speaker 3: Nana loves the morning with Luna, make her some wheat bits,
Speaker 3: and it was just delightful to spend time with everyone.
Speaker 3: So it was very restorative.
Speaker 1: My worst is that I like to sing you did
Speaker 1: it for your hsc apparently who told you that? And anyway,
Speaker 1: the other day, Luna was in the bath and she
Speaker 1: was grizzling about something and I just started to sing
Speaker 1: because I thought that'll calm her down. In the past,
Speaker 1: when she was little, I can't remember, there's a particular
Speaker 1: sort of hymn that I used to sing her, or
Speaker 1: like a folk song, I don't even know what you'd.
Speaker 3: Call it, but she quite liked that when she was when.
Speaker 1: She was a tiny baby, well.
Speaker 3: Actually we don't know if she liked it.
Speaker 1: Before she could speak, she didn't protest anyway. I started
Speaker 1: singing and she just looked at me and said, Nana
Speaker 1: sing all done? And I thought someone's been getting in
Speaker 1: your ear. They someone has polluted the pure waters of
Speaker 1: my granddaughter.
Speaker 3: Did you all done?
Speaker 2: Or did you persist? She gave another crack.
Speaker 1: I tried my best. Obviously, being away with the family,
Speaker 1: it was great touch what I did not get sick.
Speaker 1: But I have started seriously weight training, so you know
Speaker 1: my hyperfixations. I have just realized because I was I
Speaker 1: think I've said before, I was got my weighted vest
Speaker 1: I've been lifting. Then I realized I've been lifting weights
Speaker 1: that are way too light. I need to really level
Speaker 1: up a lot. And so now I have and tell
Speaker 1: you more about it.
Speaker 2: Full of bar bells and kettle bells and stuff.
Speaker 1: Now, yes, well, because I've got there's men in my house,
Speaker 1: so you know, they get used by a lot of people.
Speaker 3: And how much are we lifting so much?
Speaker 1: I don't want to disclose it because I don't want
Speaker 1: to intimidate anybody who's listening. No, I'm still pretty pathetic,
Speaker 1: But what I'm really enjoying is because I've just sort
Speaker 1: of done the same form of exercise for so many years.
Speaker 1: I like to sort of set and forget the same
Speaker 1: way I do with my lunches or my breakfasts. I
Speaker 1: never feel anything from it. I don't get very tired.
Speaker 1: I never feel any muscle anything because I never ever
Speaker 1: challenged my muscles like I can feel some things happening. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And it's a real shift away also for gene x women.
Speaker 1: We grew up in this diet culture and it was
Speaker 1: always about cardio and about burning and about looking a
Speaker 1: certain weight and all of those things. And this is
Speaker 1: just very different. This is about lifting for longevity and
Speaker 1: brain health and bone density and all of that kind
Speaker 1: of stuff. Yeah. I listened to the podcast interview that
Speaker 1: mel Robins did with Stacy Simms that everyone's talking about.
Speaker 1: I think you're interviewing.
Speaker 3: I recently that weight training is better for your brain.
Speaker 2: THANKU. And I was like, that's good. I don't like doku. Yeah,
Speaker 2: got to get me else.
Speaker 1: I love it.
Speaker 3: Came up, do it.
Speaker 2: That's all We've got time for friends. Thank you for
Speaker 2: being with us here on this short week. A massive
Speaker 2: thank you for all of you who are listening to
Speaker 2: today's show, Jesse and Mia, please thank how Marvel's team.
Speaker 3: I think, thank you to our team group executive producer
Speaker 3: Ruth Divine, executive producer Emmeline Gazillis, our audio producer Leah
Speaker 3: Poor Jess.
Speaker 1: Our video producer Josh Green, and our junior content producers
Speaker 1: Coco and Tessa. We will see you all in your
Speaker 1: ears will We'll be back in your ears on Monday.
Speaker 1: Well well, Hi. Shout out to any Muma Miya subscribers listening.
Speaker 1: If you love the show and want to support us
Speaker 1: as well, subscribing to mom and Miya is the very
Speaker 1: best way to do so. There is a link in
Speaker 1: the episode descriptions