WEBVTT - The Snow Globe Effect & Brad Pitt’s Victory Lap 0:00:10.622 --> 0:00:13.342 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 0:00:13.822 --> 0:00:17.182 Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:17.222 --> 0:00:18.982 that this podcast is recorded on. 0:00:20.862 --> 0:00:23.622 Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia out loud What women 0:00:23.662 --> 0:00:26.542 are actually talking about on Friday, the twenty ninth of August. 0:00:26.662 --> 0:00:29.862 I'm Holly Waynwright, I'm Jesse Stevens, and I'm m Vernon. 0:00:30.062 --> 0:00:33.622 And on our agenda today, we've got what is the 0:00:33.662 --> 0:00:37.062 snow globe effect and why it might put words around 0:00:37.062 --> 0:00:39.101 something you're struggling to adjust to. 0:00:39.582 --> 0:00:43.462 Plus, are you an extrovert, an introvert or an otrovert 0:00:43.822 --> 0:00:45.822 the new term that might describe you? 0:00:46.302 --> 0:00:49.662 And clear your weekend plans because we have four things 0:00:49.702 --> 0:00:50.942 for you to watch and they're. 0:00:50.782 --> 0:00:54.462 All very very good four things. 0:00:54.622 --> 0:00:57.102 But first, and I don't know who started this hate 0:00:57.102 --> 0:01:00.182 treen about millennials putting lol at the end of our 0:01:00.182 --> 0:01:02.422 text messages and telling us that we need to stop 0:01:02.422 --> 0:01:02.822 doing that. 0:01:03.542 --> 0:01:04.662 You can't tell us what to do. 0:01:05.062 --> 0:01:09.622 We invented text messages, Our generation invented text messages. If 0:01:09.622 --> 0:01:11.902 you don't know the struggle of having to press a 0:01:12.021 --> 0:01:14.862 nine three times just to get a Y and then 0:01:14.902 --> 0:01:16.662 having to do that three more times, just to get 0:01:16.782 --> 0:01:18.301 three wives at the end of your. 0:01:18.222 --> 0:01:21.062 Hay, okay, tell us what to do. You don't even 0:01:21.102 --> 0:01:21.661 know how to text. 0:01:21.702 --> 0:01:23.742 You don't even know what text messages are. You know, 0:01:23.862 --> 0:01:25.462 typing because you get a keyboard you have to press 0:01:25.502 --> 0:01:26.222 one letter at a time. 0:01:28.262 --> 0:01:32.422 Dear, so generational throw down there, Friday, that way. 0:01:32.462 --> 0:01:33.021 Yes we are. 0:01:33.142 --> 0:01:36.182 First it was the skinny jeans, then it was the 0:01:36.222 --> 0:01:38.702 side fringes, and now it's the way they text. I 0:01:38.742 --> 0:01:41.021 feel like millennials cannot. 0:01:40.862 --> 0:01:43.902 Catch a break. So this I'm so. 0:01:46.102 --> 0:01:49.102 Very finding out louders who don't know the ins and 0:01:49.142 --> 0:01:50.302 outs of our dynamic. 0:01:50.702 --> 0:01:53.062 At this table, we have gen Z. 0:01:53.302 --> 0:01:55.542 I'm as millennial because every time I say gen Z, 0:01:55.702 --> 0:01:58.382 the people younger than me get very old. And every 0:01:58.422 --> 0:02:00.382 time I say I'm a millennial, people older me also 0:02:00.382 --> 0:02:00.862 get very. 0:02:01.062 --> 0:02:04.382 She's on the cuffs the gen z ish Yeah, and 0:02:04.462 --> 0:02:05.582 Jesse is very millennials. 0:02:05.622 --> 0:02:09.181 I'm proper millennials, and I'm propergenic, propergenics. Okay, So this 0:02:09.582 --> 0:02:13.182 whole lool thing started from a tweet, which is like 0:02:13.181 --> 0:02:17.022 where I feel like most generational disagreements start. This tweet 0:02:17.222 --> 0:02:22.062 has over four million views and it says millennials use 0:02:22.262 --> 0:02:25.181 lol like stop at the end of a telegram. 0:02:25.422 --> 0:02:29.382 Loll Okay. I think we use loll like you know 0:02:29.422 --> 0:02:31.622 when you're on a walkie talkie and you say over. 0:02:32.302 --> 0:02:33.302 That's how I use lot. 0:02:33.422 --> 0:02:36.181 Yes, that's like a full stop. Yes, I don't really 0:02:36.181 --> 0:02:38.022 know what a telegram is. It's wrong with that. 0:02:38.142 --> 0:02:40.782 So if you've ever watched an old movie, right, it's 0:02:40.942 --> 0:02:43.142 like like black and white movie, a piece of paper 0:02:43.142 --> 0:02:44.982 will come to the post office or whatever and it'll 0:02:45.022 --> 0:02:48.582 be mum, very sick, stop must come now stop, like 0:02:48.662 --> 0:02:50.022 it's the full stop. 0:02:50.142 --> 0:02:52.782 Oh wow, Okay, So that's what. 0:02:52.822 --> 0:02:56.062 You're doing, and what the loll is meant to infer 0:02:56.502 --> 0:03:01.382 is millennials never want anyone to think they're being dramatic 0:03:01.622 --> 0:03:03.262 or over the top. We don't want to worry. I 0:03:03.302 --> 0:03:04.902 don't want you to worry. 0:03:04.622 --> 0:03:05.462 About what I'm saying. 0:03:05.542 --> 0:03:08.061 So it's like Luna's got hand foot in mouth. Low, 0:03:09.062 --> 0:03:11.822 I'm not feeling very well lol. And then it's like 0:03:12.342 --> 0:03:13.742 work was fucked today. 0:03:13.822 --> 0:03:14.062 Lol. 0:03:14.262 --> 0:03:16.742 It's like it just lightens everything a little bit and 0:03:16.782 --> 0:03:20.782 it injects a millennial cynicism and kind of takes out 0:03:21.022 --> 0:03:26.782 the earnestness like wet or being whiny, like yes, yes, exactly, 0:03:26.862 --> 0:03:30.902 it's just like this dryness that gen Z doesn't understand 0:03:30.942 --> 0:03:33.222 because they take themselves so seriously. 0:03:33.782 --> 0:03:38.302 Okay, it's interesting how the loll made it through though, 0:03:38.422 --> 0:03:41.622 because the reason loll started was when we didn't have 0:03:41.742 --> 0:03:43.782 keyboards on our phones. We had all the numbers and 0:03:43.822 --> 0:03:46.062 like three letters assigned to each number, and it. 0:03:46.062 --> 0:03:48.342 Was easier to do an l OL than a ha 0:03:48.342 --> 0:03:48.902 ha ha ha. 0:03:49.302 --> 0:03:50.222 Yeah, exactly right. 0:03:50.302 --> 0:03:53.222 And yet l ol made it through the keyboard phase 0:03:53.302 --> 0:03:55.262 of the Internet, whereas like a lot of other ones 0:03:55.302 --> 0:03:59.342 like see let us see you letter you late eight. 0:04:00.022 --> 0:04:04.502 Yeah, we just just abandoned. But there's something about loll 0:04:05.742 --> 0:04:08.982 that just and it's it's ironic, like millennials are pretending 0:04:09.022 --> 0:04:13.742 that it's but it's just your way of lightning the 0:04:13.782 --> 0:04:15.662 mood when it comes to anything. 0:04:15.822 --> 0:04:17.582 I rarely use it. I rarely use it. 0:04:17.702 --> 0:04:20.222 I use it only if I want to say something 0:04:20.262 --> 0:04:22.622 serious but don't want it to escalate beyond that, so 0:04:22.702 --> 0:04:24.502 I'll be like, yeah, hey, I didn't really like how 0:04:24.502 --> 0:04:25.741 you called me a stupid little bitch. 0:04:25.782 --> 0:04:28.782 Lol, it's massively past. 0:04:28.902 --> 0:04:29.101 Hang. 0:04:30.782 --> 0:04:32.822 Can I ask a question just while on this topic, Yeah, 0:04:33.181 --> 0:04:35.702 because I saw on my Instagram today, because that's where 0:04:35.741 --> 0:04:38.702 gen xs live on Instagram a video of like a 0:04:38.741 --> 0:04:42.101 young adult explained with doing a PowerPoint presentation to his 0:04:42.262 --> 0:04:45.741 presumably late gen X parents, how they were using all 0:04:45.782 --> 0:04:48.181 their emojis wrong, like we know that right generally, but 0:04:48.262 --> 0:04:49.942 this one I hadn't heard before, and I need to 0:04:49.981 --> 0:04:52.741 run it past you in particular, En, but maybe you also, Jesse. 0:04:53.541 --> 0:04:55.862 The exclamation marks, you know, are the red ones? Yeah, 0:04:55.902 --> 0:04:59.301 the red exclamation marks. The kid doing this presentation. The 0:04:59.342 --> 0:05:02.061 example was he texted his mom saying I'm in a 0:05:02.101 --> 0:05:06.381 bar with Alex Cooper. She is podcast royalty in the world, 0:05:06.861 --> 0:05:10.701 and his mom had responded with the exclamation marks, like wow, 0:05:10.782 --> 0:05:13.262 that's what she thought. She was saying wow ye, And 0:05:13.301 --> 0:05:16.782 he said, no, you're saying, yes, I am also in 0:05:16.821 --> 0:05:18.142 a bar with Alex keeper. 0:05:19.821 --> 0:05:22.421 We're being trolled that. No, you don't just get to 0:05:22.462 --> 0:05:23.662 reinvent grammar. 0:05:23.941 --> 0:05:30.621 I was saying, exclamation emoji means I agree on me too. 0:05:30.981 --> 0:05:33.222 Is that true? Have you heard that before? 0:05:33.342 --> 0:05:35.621 I think it's both, Like it depends on the person, 0:05:35.741 --> 0:05:38.261 but I think you can differentiate between someone going wow 0:05:38.381 --> 0:05:42.061 exclamation Also, why wouldn't you just type wow, it's my parents? 0:05:42.142 --> 0:05:45.461 I mean, exclamation could be like okay, cool, But I 0:05:45.582 --> 0:05:47.622 use it as like saying, if you message me. 0:05:47.782 --> 0:05:49.061 He was saying, He's saying it's same. 0:05:49.142 --> 0:05:50.901 So it's like, Mum, you weren't in a bar with 0:05:50.941 --> 0:05:53.262 Alex Cooper, so you shouldn't have gone with the exclamation. 0:05:53.342 --> 0:05:56.461 See if m messages me and goes I won the lottery, 0:05:56.621 --> 0:05:58.942 I've just become a millionaire. I reckon i'd go three 0:05:58.981 --> 0:06:05.101 exclamation marks, like I'd be like. 0:06:07.421 --> 0:06:11.342 I want to talk about my friendly Now. Regular Outlouders 0:06:11.342 --> 0:06:13.582 will have heard about our friend Lucy. Actually she is 0:06:13.621 --> 0:06:15.381 a friend to all of us because we've all worked 0:06:15.381 --> 0:06:17.742 with Lucy. Lucy Ormonde is made of ours who has 0:06:17.821 --> 0:06:21.301 an amazing substack called Year of Healing, and we talked 0:06:21.301 --> 0:06:23.581 about it on the show once before because we talked 0:06:23.582 --> 0:06:27.941 about Glimmers. But Lucy continues to produce excellent newsles. 0:06:27.941 --> 0:06:28.502 Thank you Les. 0:06:28.621 --> 0:06:30.941 We need to talk about her next one because I 0:06:30.981 --> 0:06:33.182 think that what she raises in it is something that. 0:06:33.142 --> 0:06:34.581 Will be really useful to lots of people. 0:06:35.342 --> 0:06:38.381 So, our friend Lucy has just spent a year going 0:06:38.421 --> 0:06:41.821 through some very intense treatment for breast cancer. Some Outlauders 0:06:41.902 --> 0:06:43.301 know this because we've talked about it on the show. 0:06:43.301 --> 0:06:46.181 Before she was diagnosed last year when we were on 0:06:46.222 --> 0:06:51.101 tour together, actually in April, and she has recently completed 0:06:51.101 --> 0:06:54.461 the most serious part of that treatment and it was 0:06:54.501 --> 0:06:57.581 so far successful. She has ongoing treatment going on, but 0:06:57.662 --> 0:07:01.462 she's kind of in this after period. And I hang 0:07:01.501 --> 0:07:04.342 out with Lucy quite a bit, and what is clear 0:07:04.782 --> 0:07:07.901 is that the neat narrative that we would all like, 0:07:08.501 --> 0:07:12.542 which is that was terrible. Now things are fine. Let's 0:07:12.582 --> 0:07:14.302 all get on with it and pretend that didn't happen, 0:07:14.542 --> 0:07:17.062 or just isn't that a wonderful neat little ending. 0:07:17.381 --> 0:07:19.661 It's just not how it rolls now. 0:07:19.902 --> 0:07:22.261 I'm going to just read you a bit from Lucy's 0:07:22.422 --> 0:07:25.902 substack letter about talking to her psychologist about why she 0:07:25.941 --> 0:07:29.662 doesn't feel like she can just move on? Is I 0:07:29.702 --> 0:07:32.662 guess the words that she would want the snow globe 0:07:33.062 --> 0:07:35.262 effect that I'm about to read you this bit of 0:07:35.262 --> 0:07:38.502 a letter from in this case was credited to doctor 0:07:38.582 --> 0:07:41.822 Charlotte Totpman, who's an Australian psychologist who specializes in cancer 0:07:41.902 --> 0:07:44.382 related distress. I know that it's a theory that floats 0:07:44.381 --> 0:07:47.022 around in lots of places, but in this instance it 0:07:47.062 --> 0:07:50.102 was Dr Topman who applied it to cancer. This is 0:07:50.142 --> 0:07:53.222 a bit of Lucy's post. Have you heard about the 0:07:53.262 --> 0:07:57.862 snow globe effect? My psychologist asks midway through our ladies session, 0:07:58.302 --> 0:08:00.821 right about the time I was starting yet another spiral 0:08:00.902 --> 0:08:03.742 about the complexity of my feelings on having cancer and 0:08:03.782 --> 0:08:06.982 why I can't quite find my way in this new world. 0:08:07.702 --> 0:08:10.821 She reaches off screen and pulls as small plastic snow 0:08:10.862 --> 0:08:14.702 globe into focus. As a specialist in oncology, she must 0:08:14.821 --> 0:08:17.062 use the snow globe analogy enough to know she always 0:08:17.102 --> 0:08:19.862 needs one close. I want you to imagine this snow 0:08:19.862 --> 0:08:22.062 globe is your life, she says, as she holds it 0:08:22.102 --> 0:08:24.622 close to the screen. She gives me a few seconds 0:08:24.662 --> 0:08:26.702 to take it in before she starts to shake it. 0:08:27.302 --> 0:08:32.742 And then suddenly you're diagnosed with cancer. Shake shake, shake, shake, shake, shake. 0:08:32.702 --> 0:08:33.781 And stop. 0:08:34.582 --> 0:08:37.822 The cylinder stops in her hands, but the snowflakes continue 0:08:37.902 --> 0:08:41.782 to fall. Now, she says, imagine all those little bits 0:08:41.822 --> 0:08:45.342 of snowy your values and priorities. Cancer has thrown them 0:08:45.382 --> 0:08:48.102 all up in the air, and now none of them 0:08:48.102 --> 0:08:51.702 are settling where they were before. The flakes keep falling. 0:08:52.262 --> 0:08:54.702 The things that used to matter don't matter anymore, and 0:08:54.742 --> 0:08:56.622 some of the things that really didn't matter. 0:08:56.862 --> 0:08:57.702 Now do. 0:08:59.382 --> 0:09:01.742 Now what Lucy's talking about. There is something called the 0:09:01.862 --> 0:09:06.182 snow globe effect. It's been widely talked about and credited 0:09:06.262 --> 0:09:12.862 to different psychologists. Is that something that rings true with 0:09:13.022 --> 0:09:16.902 you too about maybe other areas of life, or that 0:09:17.062 --> 0:09:20.302 explains why things sometimes aren't in such a neat little package. 0:09:20.702 --> 0:09:25.862 I love this analogy so much because when people talk 0:09:25.902 --> 0:09:29.142 about values work, and you hear a lot of psychologists 0:09:29.142 --> 0:09:30.942 talk about the importance of values, and maybe a lot 0:09:30.942 --> 0:09:33.702 of people in the self help space, there's this idea 0:09:33.782 --> 0:09:36.182 that your values, you can write them down in a journal, 0:09:36.222 --> 0:09:37.982 you can point to them, and they are your north 0:09:38.062 --> 0:09:40.982 star and they never ever change, and that makes us 0:09:40.982 --> 0:09:42.982 feel very in control of things. And it is a 0:09:43.062 --> 0:09:49.102 total oversimplification of how values work, because in fact, sometimes 0:09:49.782 --> 0:09:54.022 you don't get to choose your values. Sometimes something so 0:09:54.502 --> 0:09:59.502 catastrophic or transformative happens in your life that it is shaken. 0:10:00.182 --> 0:10:02.942 And I think this will happen to every single person 0:10:03.022 --> 0:10:05.662 at some point in their life, and maybe it won't 0:10:05.702 --> 0:10:09.542 be as horrific as a cancer diagnosis, but I think 0:10:09.542 --> 0:10:11.502 I think in some ways life is a snow globe 0:10:11.542 --> 0:10:13.582 in that you know the second you feel like everything 0:10:13.662 --> 0:10:16.822 is calm, it just all gets shaken. I've, you know, 0:10:16.862 --> 0:10:18.462 noticed this with Lucier. I've noticed this with a lot 0:10:18.462 --> 0:10:20.422 of friends, where sometimes they're like, but I don't want 0:10:20.422 --> 0:10:22.222 those to be my values. I don't want those to 0:10:22.222 --> 0:10:25.022 be my priorities. But you've got to let it all 0:10:25.062 --> 0:10:29.662 sit and go. This is kind of how life looks 0:10:29.742 --> 0:10:33.582 now and in the middle of the mess, it's impossible 0:10:33.702 --> 0:10:38.062 to see where it's all gonna land. And if you 0:10:38.102 --> 0:10:41.462 are a controlling I feel like I can be quite controlling. 0:10:41.502 --> 0:10:42.942 We all are. We all would like to have more 0:10:42.942 --> 0:10:45.342 control over our lives. We try and grab this piece 0:10:45.622 --> 0:10:48.022 and then nail this piece to a wall and then 0:10:48.062 --> 0:10:50.022 go and I'll just put this here and then fine, 0:10:50.062 --> 0:10:53.102 it's all okay now now can we move on? But 0:10:53.142 --> 0:10:55.622 it almost reminded me of something. I don't think I've 0:10:55.622 --> 0:10:57.982 talked about it here. I've spoken about it somewhere else. 0:10:58.022 --> 0:11:01.342 But Kate Langbrook. Before I had a baby, I was 0:11:01.342 --> 0:11:04.182 speaking to Kate, who's got four kids, and she said, 0:11:04.462 --> 0:11:08.381 parenting is like falling down the stairs drunk. You injure 0:11:08.382 --> 0:11:11.502 yourself when you resist. You've got to go floppy. If 0:11:11.542 --> 0:11:14.582 you go floppy, you'll be fine. And I've thought about 0:11:14.622 --> 0:11:18.142 that so much because it's the resistance that causes the pain. Yes, 0:11:18.382 --> 0:11:20.502 Like it's the resistance to kind of even in the 0:11:20.502 --> 0:11:23.622 snow globe, you're kind of going around and like almost 0:11:23.622 --> 0:11:26.822 in the middle of this hurricane, and the more you 0:11:26.902 --> 0:11:30.141 try and resist, the more you get frustrated and irritated, 0:11:30.182 --> 0:11:34.062 and you're going whether it's in parenting, there is so 0:11:34.182 --> 0:11:36.582 little you can control, and like it is so much 0:11:36.622 --> 0:11:40.222 more comfortable if you just go. I think the word 0:11:40.302 --> 0:11:43.342 there is just surrender, like just surrender to it. 0:11:43.502 --> 0:11:45.021 Yeah, it's so interesting. 0:11:45.182 --> 0:11:49.142 I actually learned about the snow globe effect years ago 0:11:49.182 --> 0:11:54.022 from my own therapist, and it was a situation where 0:11:54.222 --> 0:11:57.142 I started going to therapy but there wasn't something that 0:11:57.222 --> 0:11:59.462 happened to me where I needed to go to therapy for. 0:11:59.702 --> 0:12:02.622 And I think it's that ongoing argument on if nothing's 0:12:02.622 --> 0:12:04.902 happened to you, you don't need therapy, versus like you have 0:12:04.902 --> 0:12:05.622 to wait for something. 0:12:05.462 --> 0:12:06.702 To happen to you and then go to therapy. 0:12:06.742 --> 0:12:09.381 I've read that people go during the snow globe storm 0:12:09.742 --> 0:12:11.142 when maybe they should go before. 0:12:11.342 --> 0:12:11.542 Yeah. 0:12:11.582 --> 0:12:15.302 Yeah, so, and it's actually really hard because my first 0:12:15.422 --> 0:12:21.022 few therapy sessions. I hated it because the whole idea 0:12:21.342 --> 0:12:24.142 was my therapist, who's absolutely amazing. She was trying to 0:12:24.182 --> 0:12:27.462 get me to talk about my values that I had 0:12:27.782 --> 0:12:30.222 and question them and see if they were actually the 0:12:30.262 --> 0:12:33.022 right values for me. And the movies taught me that 0:12:33.062 --> 0:12:34.982 when you go to therapy, you leave therapy and like 0:12:35.022 --> 0:12:37.502 the world's a better place. Was I was leaving therapy 0:12:37.542 --> 0:12:39.302 and I was feeling worse. I was feeling like, oh 0:12:39.342 --> 0:12:41.462 my god, this sucks, like this is the hardest. 0:12:41.182 --> 0:12:42.742 More confused. I'm more confused. 0:12:42.822 --> 0:12:45.782 I just feel so sad, like everything's just so annoying. 0:12:45.822 --> 0:12:49.022 I hate everyone. And then eventually it started getting lighter 0:12:49.062 --> 0:12:51.222 and lighter. But it did make me realize that therapy 0:12:51.302 --> 0:12:54.222 is like a muscle that I constantly had to keep training, 0:12:54.622 --> 0:12:57.062 and I had to keep going to actually figure out 0:12:57.662 --> 0:13:00.062 what my actual values are and I can't. When I 0:13:00.142 --> 0:13:02.942 read Lucy's piece, I remember like it brought me back 0:13:02.982 --> 0:13:06.342 to that snow globe theory, and I can't even imagine 0:13:06.382 --> 0:13:08.342 what it would be like to go through all of 0:13:08.382 --> 0:13:11.542 that when you're not in control of it, wh're already 0:13:11.582 --> 0:13:14.102 happening to you instead of you looking at it before 0:13:14.142 --> 0:13:14.702 it happens. 0:13:15.142 --> 0:13:19.342 So what context did your therapist use the snow globe effect? 0:13:19.422 --> 0:13:21.302 Can you remember what they were talking about. 0:13:21.582 --> 0:13:24.462 So I had this bit of a crisis where I 0:13:24.542 --> 0:13:29.622 was twenty three or something and I just felt so childlike. 0:13:29.702 --> 0:13:32.142 And it was the same age that my dad was 0:13:32.222 --> 0:13:35.942 when he moved to Australia from India and had to 0:13:36.022 --> 0:13:40.062 literally start his life, find a job, work, get married, 0:13:40.142 --> 0:13:43.182 have kids. And it just put me in this place 0:13:43.222 --> 0:13:44.982 where I was like, how was my dad able to 0:13:45.022 --> 0:13:48.062 do that in a brand new country, also facing like 0:13:48.142 --> 0:13:51.222 so much like racism and stuff, and I can't even 0:13:51.342 --> 0:13:54.742 like make my bed sometimes in the morning. And that's 0:13:54.782 --> 0:13:57.261 what my therapists had to go through. I think it's 0:13:57.342 --> 0:14:00.342 very common, especially with children of immigrants, not being able 0:14:00.382 --> 0:14:02.782 to do what your parents did, because in the back 0:14:02.782 --> 0:14:04.582 of your head, you're always like, they did this a mesona, 0:14:04.662 --> 0:14:06.462 I have to do something with my life because they 0:14:06.582 --> 0:14:07.342 literally gave. 0:14:07.262 --> 0:14:08.142 Up their life for me. 0:14:08.342 --> 0:14:11.222 There's like pressure, yeah, And it was around that where 0:14:11.342 --> 0:14:14.982 she was like, I think you just need to enjoy 0:14:15.142 --> 0:14:17.382 the life you're living right now, and I feel like 0:14:17.382 --> 0:14:19.622 you're struggling to do that because you constantly have that 0:14:19.702 --> 0:14:21.822 voice in the back of your head, and then she 0:14:21.982 --> 0:14:24.542 was talking about is that actually happening or are you 0:14:24.622 --> 0:14:26.022 telling yourself that that's happening? 0:14:26.102 --> 0:14:27.142 Because my dad wasn't. 0:14:26.942 --> 0:14:29.782 Telling me that, like he wasn't And it was one 0:14:29.782 --> 0:14:31.422 of those things where I was like, that was my 0:14:31.462 --> 0:14:33.102 whole life up until that point. I was like, there's 0:14:33.102 --> 0:14:34.822 no way I can stop doing that, Like there's no 0:14:34.822 --> 0:14:37.102 way I can stop thinking about that. And it took 0:14:37.382 --> 0:14:40.662 years for me to get out of that mentality and have. 0:14:40.542 --> 0:14:41.582 A perspective share. 0:14:41.822 --> 0:14:42.102 Yeah. 0:14:42.142 --> 0:14:44.582 I think one of the things about the snow globe, 0:14:45.182 --> 0:14:47.822 and this is what Lucy has said to me about 0:14:47.862 --> 0:14:50.902 it too, is that she's sort of after a storm 0:14:50.982 --> 0:14:54.902 in a way, right, Like it's not really over. She's 0:14:54.942 --> 0:14:57.942 still on cancer treatment. There's still a lot of physical 0:14:58.022 --> 0:15:03.862 and emotional and psychological stuff going on, and yet the 0:15:04.142 --> 0:15:07.302 storm is over, the snowflakes have settled in theory, right, 0:15:07.742 --> 0:15:10.422 and everything is in a different place than it was before. 0:15:11.062 --> 0:15:15.182 And I think that this is also something that can 0:15:15.262 --> 0:15:19.782 happen in grief, in loss, maybe after a massive life upheaval, 0:15:19.902 --> 0:15:22.702 like a divorce that you didn't see coming, is suddenly 0:15:23.022 --> 0:15:26.822 everything's different and you're changed. You're the same, but you're changed, 0:15:27.502 --> 0:15:30.862 and that can also be really confusing for people around you. 0:15:31.502 --> 0:15:34.622 I know people who've been through enormous loss, for example, 0:15:34.702 --> 0:15:37.982 that has rearranged all their snowflakes, and everything's in a 0:15:38.022 --> 0:15:41.782 different place, and everything tastes different and looks different, smells different, 0:15:42.022 --> 0:15:44.582 and the people around you are going, but the storm 0:15:44.662 --> 0:15:47.342 is over, Like, you know, you lost your person and 0:15:47.422 --> 0:15:49.382 now it's been six months and you should be getting 0:15:49.382 --> 0:15:52.622 over it. Or you had cancer. Now you've been told 0:15:52.702 --> 0:15:54.862 that your cancer free for now, so it's over, so 0:15:55.142 --> 0:15:58.302 come on, you know more, you know, the crisis has passed, 0:15:58.302 --> 0:16:01.422 the storm is over. And the thing is is that 0:16:01.782 --> 0:16:03.902 you can never pretend as if the storm didn't happen. 0:16:03.942 --> 0:16:04.942 Yeah, it's not temporary. 0:16:05.102 --> 0:16:08.422 Yeah whatever this massive thing that's happened to you, that 0:16:08.502 --> 0:16:11.382 did tear the wallpaper off your walls, or whatever analogy 0:16:11.422 --> 0:16:13.902 you want to torture with it, you can't just piece 0:16:13.942 --> 0:16:16.262 it all back together and make it exactly the same. 0:16:16.302 --> 0:16:18.022 So then you've got to be comfortable with the change. 0:16:18.022 --> 0:16:20.662 And to your point Jesse, about we like to be 0:16:20.742 --> 0:16:22.502 so certain about our values and we like to have 0:16:22.502 --> 0:16:24.302 them nailed to the wall, and we like to be like, 0:16:24.702 --> 0:16:26.662 this is who I am and often when we're going 0:16:26.702 --> 0:16:31.142 through something really difficult, we just crave the normalcy of 0:16:31.342 --> 0:16:35.662 knowing where all the furniture is. Again, it's like another 0:16:36.302 --> 0:16:40.022 crisis in facing that the furniture is never going to 0:16:40.022 --> 0:16:40.182 be in. 0:16:40.142 --> 0:16:41.502 The same so we're not going back to where we 0:16:41.582 --> 0:16:42.062 came from. 0:16:42.102 --> 0:16:43.222 So I think it's really helpful. 0:16:43.262 --> 0:16:44.702 One of the other things that Lucy said to me 0:16:44.782 --> 0:16:47.142 about this analogy, though, is she said that in some 0:16:47.222 --> 0:16:51.462 ways she feels like her snowflakes have settled in places 0:16:51.542 --> 0:16:54.142 that are better than where they were before. Right now, 0:16:54.182 --> 0:16:56.982 not everybody likes that kind of neat analogy that a 0:16:57.062 --> 0:17:00.582 terrible experience like always has this big meaning that, oh, 0:17:00.582 --> 0:17:03.622 suddenly I understand what life's about. You know, that's certainly 0:17:03.662 --> 0:17:05.982 not true for everybody. There's so much anger and darkness 0:17:05.982 --> 0:17:09.181 involved in all that too. But if your values are 0:17:09.222 --> 0:17:13.141 drama rearranged and your priorities are dramatically rearranged after a 0:17:13.182 --> 0:17:16.542 traumatic event for you, maybe they are going back in 0:17:16.581 --> 0:17:18.822 places that are better for you. 0:17:18.702 --> 0:17:21.461 And that's some post traumatic growth, right Like, That's what 0:17:21.581 --> 0:17:24.341 Leigh Sales writes about in any ordinary day her book, 0:17:24.381 --> 0:17:26.181 And you hear people who have been through the most 0:17:26.302 --> 0:17:29.661 unimaginable tragedies who at the end go, I feel like 0:17:29.702 --> 0:17:33.302 I've grown out of that, which again is in everyone's story, 0:17:33.742 --> 0:17:35.981 but it's got to be a lesson in sort of 0:17:36.302 --> 0:17:39.502 stopping the resisting and to sort of torture the analogy 0:17:39.581 --> 0:17:42.101 for more. The thing about a snow globe is that 0:17:42.141 --> 0:17:44.741 it's just happening to you, like it's not happening to 0:17:44.782 --> 0:17:47.341 the whole world. You're kind of stuck in this thing, 0:17:47.381 --> 0:17:50.621 and to everyone else things are still completely normal. And 0:17:50.661 --> 0:17:53.421 as you say, they don't see the crisis anymore, but 0:17:53.542 --> 0:17:56.821 they don't probably understand the aftermath of the storm to 0:17:56.901 --> 0:18:00.461 the same extent, and so it must also be a 0:18:00.542 --> 0:18:05.782 really lonely experience of trying to understand all of those changes. 0:18:06.182 --> 0:18:08.942 If you know anyone who might benefit from reading Lucy's newsletter, 0:18:08.982 --> 0:18:11.141 A Year of Heat, it is on Substacked, and we 0:18:11.182 --> 0:18:14.061 will obviously put a link in the show notes. It's 0:18:14.101 --> 0:18:17.022 a really beautiful, it really beautiful series. 0:18:16.821 --> 0:18:20.741 Of letters out louders in a moment? Are you someone 0:18:20.821 --> 0:18:23.901 who has never ever felt like you belong? Apparently there 0:18:23.901 --> 0:18:28.101 are extroverts, introverts, and otroverts, and we have at least 0:18:28.101 --> 0:18:34.181 one sitting at this table. Do you hate parties? Do 0:18:34.222 --> 0:18:37.222 you despise team sports? Do you prefer working on your 0:18:37.222 --> 0:18:40.261 own than with a group. Have you gone through life 0:18:40.381 --> 0:18:43.981 feeling like a bit of an outsider? If so, you 0:18:44.141 --> 0:18:48.061 might be something called an otrovert, and a man named 0:18:48.222 --> 0:18:52.981 doctor Rami Kaminski has just published an entire book about you. 0:18:54.262 --> 0:18:57.542 Kaminski is an award winning psychiatrist, and he says that 0:18:57.661 --> 0:19:00.542 over the years he has had a very specific kind 0:19:00.581 --> 0:19:06.982 of person come into his practice. While introverts face inwards 0:19:07.022 --> 0:19:11.861 and extroverts face outwards, otroverts, that's a term here is coined, 0:19:12.222 --> 0:19:16.542 are on a completely different continuum. They see themselves as 0:19:16.621 --> 0:19:22.622 other and are facing somewhere else entirely. Otroverts have no 0:19:22.702 --> 0:19:25.581 problem standing up for themselves. They gain energy from deep 0:19:25.621 --> 0:19:28.821 conversations with close friends. They are often gregarious or outgoing, 0:19:29.061 --> 0:19:33.581 but critically, they have no desire to join in. As 0:19:33.661 --> 0:19:37.861 Kaminski puts it, they are soloists who cannot play in 0:19:37.901 --> 0:19:43.101 an orchestra. Most people except the group that they're born into, 0:19:43.141 --> 0:19:46.381 without question, whether that's religious, is cultural, it's political. Most 0:19:46.381 --> 0:19:49.621 crave a sense of belonging. It feels so critical to 0:19:49.742 --> 0:19:52.222 sort of your life that you belong to a group. 0:19:52.942 --> 0:19:56.182 Otroverts do not feel this. They are observers more than participants, 0:19:56.222 --> 0:19:59.542