Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 3: Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia out loud What women
Speaker 3: are actually talking about on Friday, the twenty ninth of August.
Speaker 3: I'm Holly Waynwright, I'm Jesse Stevens, and I'm m Vernon.
Speaker 3: And on our agenda today, we've got what is the
Speaker 3: snow globe effect and why it might put words around
Speaker 3: something you're struggling to adjust to.
Speaker 4: Plus, are you an extrovert, an introvert or an otrovert
Speaker 4: the new term that might describe you?
Speaker 2: And clear your weekend plans because we have four things
Speaker 2: for you to watch and they're.
Speaker 5: All very very good four things.
Speaker 6: But first, and I don't know who started this hate
Speaker 6: treen about millennials putting lol at the end of our
Speaker 6: text messages and telling us that we need to stop
Speaker 6: doing that.
Speaker 5: You can't tell us what to do.
Speaker 6: We invented text messages, Our generation invented text messages. If
Speaker 6: you don't know the struggle of having to press a
Speaker 6: nine three times just to get a Y and then
Speaker 6: having to do that three more times, just to get
Speaker 6: three wives at the end of your.
Speaker 5: Hay, okay, tell us what to do. You don't even
Speaker 5: know how to text.
Speaker 6: You don't even know what text messages are. You know,
Speaker 6: typing because you get a keyboard you have to press
Speaker 6: one letter at a time.
Speaker 3: Dear, so generational throw down there, Friday, that way.
Speaker 5: Yes we are.
Speaker 2: First it was the skinny jeans, then it was the
Speaker 2: side fringes, and now it's the way they text. I
Speaker 2: feel like millennials cannot.
Speaker 5: Catch a break. So this I'm so.
Speaker 3: Very finding out louders who don't know the ins and
Speaker 3: outs of our dynamic.
Speaker 5: At this table, we have gen Z.
Speaker 2: I'm as millennial because every time I say gen Z,
Speaker 2: the people younger than me get very old. And every
Speaker 2: time I say I'm a millennial, people older me also
Speaker 2: get very.
Speaker 3: She's on the cuffs the gen z ish Yeah, and
Speaker 3: Jesse is very millennials.
Speaker 2: I'm proper millennials, and I'm propergenic, propergenics. Okay, So this
Speaker 2: whole lool thing started from a tweet, which is like
Speaker 2: where I feel like most generational disagreements start. This tweet
Speaker 2: has over four million views and it says millennials use
Speaker 2: lol like stop at the end of a telegram.
Speaker 4: Loll Okay. I think we use loll like you know
Speaker 4: when you're on a walkie talkie and you say over.
Speaker 4: That's how I use lot.
Speaker 5: Yes, that's like a full stop. Yes, I don't really
Speaker 5: know what a telegram is. It's wrong with that.
Speaker 2: So if you've ever watched an old movie, right, it's
Speaker 2: like like black and white movie, a piece of paper
Speaker 2: will come to the post office or whatever and it'll
Speaker 2: be mum, very sick, stop must come now stop, like
Speaker 2: it's the full stop.
Speaker 5: Oh wow, Okay, So that's what.
Speaker 4: You're doing, and what the loll is meant to infer
Speaker 4: is millennials never want anyone to think they're being dramatic
Speaker 4: or over the top. We don't want to worry. I
Speaker 4: don't want you to worry.
Speaker 5: About what I'm saying.
Speaker 4: So it's like Luna's got hand foot in mouth. Low,
Speaker 4: I'm not feeling very well lol. And then it's like
Speaker 4: work was fucked today.
Speaker 7: Lol.
Speaker 4: It's like it just lightens everything a little bit and
Speaker 4: it injects a millennial cynicism and kind of takes out
Speaker 4: the earnestness like wet or being whiny, like yes, yes, exactly,
Speaker 4: it's just like this dryness that gen Z doesn't understand
Speaker 4: because they take themselves so seriously.
Speaker 2: Okay, it's interesting how the loll made it through though,
Speaker 2: because the reason loll started was when we didn't have
Speaker 2: keyboards on our phones. We had all the numbers and
Speaker 2: like three letters assigned to each number, and it.
Speaker 5: Was easier to do an l OL than a ha
Speaker 5: ha ha ha.
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly right.
Speaker 2: And yet l ol made it through the keyboard phase
Speaker 2: of the Internet, whereas like a lot of other ones
Speaker 2: like see let us see you letter you late eight.
Speaker 4: Yeah, we just just abandoned. But there's something about loll
Speaker 4: that just and it's it's ironic, like millennials are pretending
Speaker 4: that it's but it's just your way of lightning the
Speaker 4: mood when it comes to anything.
Speaker 5: I rarely use it. I rarely use it.
Speaker 2: I use it only if I want to say something
Speaker 2: serious but don't want it to escalate beyond that, so
Speaker 2: I'll be like, yeah, hey, I didn't really like how
Speaker 2: you called me a stupid little bitch.
Speaker 5: Lol, it's massively past.
Speaker 8: Hang.
Speaker 3: Can I ask a question just while on this topic, Yeah,
Speaker 3: because I saw on my Instagram today, because that's where
Speaker 3: gen xs live on Instagram a video of like a
Speaker 3: young adult explained with doing a PowerPoint presentation to his
Speaker 3: presumably late gen X parents, how they were using all
Speaker 3: their emojis wrong, like we know that right generally, but
Speaker 3: this one I hadn't heard before, and I need to
Speaker 3: run it past you in particular, En, but maybe you also, Jesse.
Speaker 3: The exclamation marks, you know, are the red ones? Yeah,
Speaker 3: the red exclamation marks. The kid doing this presentation. The
Speaker 3: example was he texted his mom saying I'm in a
Speaker 3: bar with Alex Cooper. She is podcast royalty in the world,
Speaker 3: and his mom had responded with the exclamation marks, like wow,
Speaker 3: that's what she thought. She was saying wow ye, And
Speaker 3: he said, no, you're saying, yes, I am also in
Speaker 3: a bar with Alex keeper.
Speaker 4: We're being trolled that. No, you don't just get to
Speaker 4: reinvent grammar.
Speaker 3: I was saying, exclamation emoji means I agree on me too.
Speaker 5: Is that true? Have you heard that before?
Speaker 2: I think it's both, Like it depends on the person,
Speaker 2: but I think you can differentiate between someone going wow
Speaker 2: exclamation Also, why wouldn't you just type wow, it's my parents?
Speaker 2: I mean, exclamation could be like okay, cool, But I
Speaker 2: use it as like saying, if you message me.
Speaker 5: He was saying, He's saying it's same.
Speaker 3: So it's like, Mum, you weren't in a bar with
Speaker 3: Alex Cooper, so you shouldn't have gone with the exclamation.
Speaker 4: See if m messages me and goes I won the lottery,
Speaker 4: I've just become a millionaire. I reckon i'd go three
Speaker 4: exclamation marks, like I'd be like.
Speaker 3: I want to talk about my friendly Now. Regular Outlouders
Speaker 3: will have heard about our friend Lucy. Actually she is
Speaker 3: a friend to all of us because we've all worked
Speaker 3: with Lucy. Lucy Ormonde is made of ours who has
Speaker 3: an amazing substack called Year of Healing, and we talked
Speaker 3: about it on the show once before because we talked
Speaker 3: about Glimmers. But Lucy continues to produce excellent newsles.
Speaker 5: Thank you Les.
Speaker 3: We need to talk about her next one because I
Speaker 3: think that what she raises in it is something that.
Speaker 5: Will be really useful to lots of people.
Speaker 3: So, our friend Lucy has just spent a year going
Speaker 3: through some very intense treatment for breast cancer. Some Outlauders
Speaker 3: know this because we've talked about it on the show.
Speaker 3: Before she was diagnosed last year when we were on
Speaker 3: tour together, actually in April, and she has recently completed
Speaker 3: the most serious part of that treatment and it was
Speaker 3: so far successful. She has ongoing treatment going on, but
Speaker 3: she's kind of in this after period. And I hang
Speaker 3: out with Lucy quite a bit, and what is clear
Speaker 3: is that the neat narrative that we would all like,
Speaker 3: which is that was terrible. Now things are fine. Let's
Speaker 3: all get on with it and pretend that didn't happen,
Speaker 3: or just isn't that a wonderful neat little ending.
Speaker 5: It's just not how it rolls now.
Speaker 3: I'm going to just read you a bit from Lucy's
Speaker 3: substack letter about talking to her psychologist about why she
Speaker 3: doesn't feel like she can just move on? Is I
Speaker 3: guess the words that she would want the snow globe
Speaker 3: effect that I'm about to read you this bit of
Speaker 3: a letter from in this case was credited to doctor
Speaker 3: Charlotte Totpman, who's an Australian psychologist who specializes in cancer
Speaker 3: related distress. I know that it's a theory that floats
Speaker 3: around in lots of places, but in this instance it
Speaker 3: was Dr Topman who applied it to cancer. This is
Speaker 3: a bit of Lucy's post. Have you heard about the
Speaker 3: snow globe effect? My psychologist asks midway through our ladies session,
Speaker 3: right about the time I was starting yet another spiral
Speaker 3: about the complexity of my feelings on having cancer and
Speaker 3: why I can't quite find my way in this new world.
Speaker 3: She reaches off screen and pulls as small plastic snow
Speaker 3: globe into focus. As a specialist in oncology, she must
Speaker 3: use the snow globe analogy enough to know she always
Speaker 3: needs one close. I want you to imagine this snow
Speaker 3: globe is your life, she says, as she holds it
Speaker 3: close to the screen. She gives me a few seconds
Speaker 3: to take it in before she starts to shake it.
Speaker 3: And then suddenly you're diagnosed with cancer. Shake shake, shake, shake, shake, shake.
Speaker 5: And stop.
Speaker 3: The cylinder stops in her hands, but the snowflakes continue
Speaker 3: to fall. Now, she says, imagine all those little bits
Speaker 3: of snowy your values and priorities. Cancer has thrown them
Speaker 3: all up in the air, and now none of them
Speaker 3: are settling where they were before. The flakes keep falling.
Speaker 3: The things that used to matter don't matter anymore, and
Speaker 3: some of the things that really didn't matter.
Speaker 5: Now do.
Speaker 3: Now what Lucy's talking about. There is something called the
Speaker 3: snow globe effect. It's been widely talked about and credited
Speaker 3: to different psychologists. Is that something that rings true with
Speaker 3: you too about maybe other areas of life, or that
Speaker 3: explains why things sometimes aren't in such a neat little package.
Speaker 4: I love this analogy so much because when people talk
Speaker 4: about values work, and you hear a lot of psychologists
Speaker 4: talk about the importance of values, and maybe a lot
Speaker 4: of people in the self help space, there's this idea
Speaker 4: that your values, you can write them down in a journal,
Speaker 4: you can point to them, and they are your north
Speaker 4: star and they never ever change, and that makes us
Speaker 4: feel very in control of things. And it is a
Speaker 4: total oversimplification of how values work, because in fact, sometimes
Speaker 4: you don't get to choose your values. Sometimes something so
Speaker 4: catastrophic or transformative happens in your life that it is shaken.
Speaker 4: And I think this will happen to every single person
Speaker 4: at some point in their life, and maybe it won't
Speaker 4: be as horrific as a cancer diagnosis, but I think
Speaker 4: I think in some ways life is a snow globe
Speaker 4: in that you know the second you feel like everything
Speaker 4: is calm, it just all gets shaken. I've, you know,
Speaker 4: noticed this with Lucier. I've noticed this with a lot
Speaker 4: of friends, where sometimes they're like, but I don't want
Speaker 4: those to be my values. I don't want those to
Speaker 4: be my priorities. But you've got to let it all
Speaker 4: sit and go. This is kind of how life looks
Speaker 4: now and in the middle of the mess, it's impossible
Speaker 4: to see where it's all gonna land. And if you
Speaker 4: are a controlling I feel like I can be quite controlling.
Speaker 4: We all are. We all would like to have more
Speaker 4: control over our lives. We try and grab this piece
Speaker 4: and then nail this piece to a wall and then
Speaker 4: go and I'll just put this here and then fine,
Speaker 4: it's all okay now now can we move on? But
Speaker 4: it almost reminded me of something. I don't think I've
Speaker 4: talked about it here. I've spoken about it somewhere else.
Speaker 4: But Kate Langbrook. Before I had a baby, I was
Speaker 4: speaking to Kate, who's got four kids, and she said,
Speaker 4: parenting is like falling down the stairs drunk. You injure
Speaker 4: yourself when you resist. You've got to go floppy. If
Speaker 4: you go floppy, you'll be fine. And I've thought about
Speaker 4: that so much because it's the resistance that causes the pain. Yes,
Speaker 4: Like it's the resistance to kind of even in the
Speaker 4: snow globe, you're kind of going around and like almost
Speaker 4: in the middle of this hurricane, and the more you
Speaker 4: try and resist, the more you get frustrated and irritated,
Speaker 4: and you're going whether it's in parenting, there is so
Speaker 4: little you can control, and like it is so much
Speaker 4: more comfortable if you just go. I think the word
Speaker 4: there is just surrender, like just surrender to it.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's so interesting.
Speaker 2: I actually learned about the snow globe effect years ago
Speaker 2: from my own therapist, and it was a situation where
Speaker 2: I started going to therapy but there wasn't something that
Speaker 2: happened to me where I needed to go to therapy for.
Speaker 2: And I think it's that ongoing argument on if nothing's
Speaker 2: happened to you, you don't need therapy, versus like you have
Speaker 2: to wait for something.
Speaker 5: To happen to you and then go to therapy.
Speaker 4: I've read that people go during the snow globe storm
Speaker 4: when maybe they should go before.
Speaker 8: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, and it's actually really hard because my first
Speaker 2: few therapy sessions. I hated it because the whole idea
Speaker 2: was my therapist, who's absolutely amazing. She was trying to
Speaker 2: get me to talk about my values that I had
Speaker 2: and question them and see if they were actually the
Speaker 2: right values for me. And the movies taught me that
Speaker 2: when you go to therapy, you leave therapy and like
Speaker 2: the world's a better place. Was I was leaving therapy
Speaker 2: and I was feeling worse. I was feeling like, oh
Speaker 2: my god, this sucks, like this is the hardest.
Speaker 5: More confused. I'm more confused.
Speaker 2: I just feel so sad, like everything's just so annoying.
Speaker 2: I hate everyone. And then eventually it started getting lighter
Speaker 2: and lighter. But it did make me realize that therapy
Speaker 2: is like a muscle that I constantly had to keep training,
Speaker 2: and I had to keep going to actually figure out
Speaker 2: what my actual values are and I can't. When I
Speaker 2: read Lucy's piece, I remember like it brought me back
Speaker 2: to that snow globe theory, and I can't even imagine
Speaker 2: what it would be like to go through all of
Speaker 2: that when you're not in control of it, wh're already
Speaker 2: happening to you instead of you looking at it before
Speaker 2: it happens.
Speaker 4: So what context did your therapist use the snow globe effect?
Speaker 4: Can you remember what they were talking about.
Speaker 2: So I had this bit of a crisis where I
Speaker 2: was twenty three or something and I just felt so childlike.
Speaker 2: And it was the same age that my dad was
Speaker 2: when he moved to Australia from India and had to
Speaker 2: literally start his life, find a job, work, get married,
Speaker 2: have kids. And it just put me in this place
Speaker 2: where I was like, how was my dad able to
Speaker 2: do that in a brand new country, also facing like
Speaker 2: so much like racism and stuff, and I can't even
Speaker 2: like make my bed sometimes in the morning. And that's
Speaker 2: what my therapists had to go through. I think it's
Speaker 2: very common, especially with children of immigrants, not being able
Speaker 2: to do what your parents did, because in the back
Speaker 2: of your head, you're always like, they did this a mesona,
Speaker 2: I have to do something with my life because they
Speaker 2: literally gave.
Speaker 5: Up their life for me.
Speaker 2: There's like pressure, yeah, And it was around that where
Speaker 2: she was like, I think you just need to enjoy
Speaker 2: the life you're living right now, and I feel like
Speaker 2: you're struggling to do that because you constantly have that
Speaker 2: voice in the back of your head, and then she
Speaker 2: was talking about is that actually happening or are you
Speaker 2: telling yourself that that's happening?
Speaker 5: Because my dad wasn't.
Speaker 2: Telling me that, like he wasn't And it was one
Speaker 2: of those things where I was like, that was my
Speaker 2: whole life up until that point. I was like, there's
Speaker 2: no way I can stop doing that, Like there's no
Speaker 2: way I can stop thinking about that. And it took
Speaker 2: years for me to get out of that mentality and have.
Speaker 5: A perspective share.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think one of the things about the snow globe,
Speaker 3: and this is what Lucy has said to me about
Speaker 3: it too, is that she's sort of after a storm
Speaker 3: in a way, right, Like it's not really over. She's
Speaker 3: still on cancer treatment. There's still a lot of physical
Speaker 3: and emotional and psychological stuff going on, and yet the
Speaker 3: storm is over, the snowflakes have settled in theory, right,
Speaker 3: and everything is in a different place than it was before.
Speaker 3: And I think that this is also something that can
Speaker 3: happen in grief, in loss, maybe after a massive life upheaval,
Speaker 3: like a divorce that you didn't see coming, is suddenly
Speaker 3: everything's different and you're changed. You're the same, but you're changed,
Speaker 3: and that can also be really confusing for people around you.
Speaker 3: I know people who've been through enormous loss, for example,
Speaker 3: that has rearranged all their snowflakes, and everything's in a
Speaker 3: different place, and everything tastes different and looks different, smells different,
Speaker 3: and the people around you are going, but the storm
Speaker 3: is over, Like, you know, you lost your person and
Speaker 3: now it's been six months and you should be getting
Speaker 3: over it. Or you had cancer. Now you've been told
Speaker 3: that your cancer free for now, so it's over, so
Speaker 3: come on, you know more, you know, the crisis has passed,
Speaker 3: the storm is over. And the thing is is that
Speaker 3: you can never pretend as if the storm didn't happen.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's not temporary.
Speaker 3: Yeah whatever this massive thing that's happened to you, that
Speaker 3: did tear the wallpaper off your walls, or whatever analogy
Speaker 3: you want to torture with it, you can't just piece
Speaker 3: it all back together and make it exactly the same.
Speaker 3: So then you've got to be comfortable with the change.
Speaker 3: And to your point Jesse, about we like to be
Speaker 3: so certain about our values and we like to have
Speaker 3: them nailed to the wall, and we like to be like,
Speaker 3: this is who I am and often when we're going
Speaker 3: through something really difficult, we just crave the normalcy of
Speaker 3: knowing where all the furniture is. Again, it's like another
Speaker 3: crisis in facing that the furniture is never going to
Speaker 3: be in.
Speaker 4: The same so we're not going back to where we
Speaker 4: came from.
Speaker 5: So I think it's really helpful.
Speaker 3: One of the other things that Lucy said to me
Speaker 3: about this analogy, though, is she said that in some
Speaker 3: ways she feels like her snowflakes have settled in places
Speaker 3: that are better than where they were before. Right now,
Speaker 3: not everybody likes that kind of neat analogy that a
Speaker 3: terrible experience like always has this big meaning that, oh,
Speaker 3: suddenly I understand what life's about. You know, that's certainly
Speaker 3: not true for everybody. There's so much anger and darkness
Speaker 3: involved in all that too. But if your values are
Speaker 3: drama rearranged and your priorities are dramatically rearranged after a
Speaker 3: traumatic event for you, maybe they are going back in
Speaker 3: places that are better for you.
Speaker 4: And that's some post traumatic growth, right Like, That's what
Speaker 4: Leigh Sales writes about in any ordinary day her book,
Speaker 4: And you hear people who have been through the most
Speaker 4: unimaginable tragedies who at the end go, I feel like
Speaker 4: I've grown out of that, which again is in everyone's story,
Speaker 4: but it's got to be a lesson in sort of
Speaker 4: stopping the resisting and to sort of torture the analogy
Speaker 4: for more. The thing about a snow globe is that
Speaker 4: it's just happening to you, like it's not happening to
Speaker 4: the whole world. You're kind of stuck in this thing,
Speaker 4: and to everyone else things are still completely normal. And
Speaker 4: as you say, they don't see the crisis anymore, but
Speaker 4: they don't probably understand the aftermath of the storm to
Speaker 4: the same extent, and so it must also be a
Speaker 4: really lonely experience of trying to understand all of those changes.
Speaker 3: If you know anyone who might benefit from reading Lucy's newsletter,
Speaker 3: A Year of Heat, it is on Substacked, and we
Speaker 3: will obviously put a link in the show notes. It's
Speaker 3: a really beautiful, it really beautiful series.
Speaker 4: Of letters out louders in a moment? Are you someone
Speaker 4: who has never ever felt like you belong? Apparently there
Speaker 4: are extroverts, introverts, and otroverts, and we have at least
Speaker 4: one sitting at this table. Do you hate parties? Do
Speaker 4: you despise team sports? Do you prefer working on your
Speaker 4: own than with a group. Have you gone through life
Speaker 4: feeling like a bit of an outsider? If so, you
Speaker 4: might be something called an otrovert, and a man named
Speaker 4: doctor Rami Kaminski has just published an entire book about you.
Speaker 4: Kaminski is an award winning psychiatrist, and he says that
Speaker 4: over the years he has had a very specific kind
Speaker 4: of person come into his practice. While introverts face inwards
Speaker 4: and extroverts face outwards, otroverts, that's a term here is coined,
Speaker 4: are on a completely different continuum. They see themselves as
Speaker 4: other and are facing somewhere else entirely. Otroverts have no
Speaker 4: problem standing up for themselves. They gain energy from deep
Speaker 4: conversations with close friends. They are often gregarious or outgoing,
Speaker 4: but critically, they have no desire to join in. As
Speaker 4: Kaminski puts it, they are soloists who cannot play in
Speaker 4: an orchestra. Most people except the group that they're born into,
Speaker 4: without question, whether that's religious, is cultural, it's political. Most
Speaker 4: crave a sense of belonging. It feels so critical to
Speaker 4: sort of your life that you belong to a group.
Speaker 4: Otroverts do not feel this. They are observers more than participants,
Speaker 4: and often they become leaders or artists or prominent thinkers
Speaker 4: because of their defiance. So the likes of Freedo, Carlo,
Speaker 4: Albert Einstein people they are outroverts. I can think of
Speaker 4: so many people in my life who fit this definition.
Speaker 4: It has been a real light bulb moment. Holly, does
Speaker 4: this sound at all familiar?
Speaker 3: Yes, So I hesitate like I don't want to pathologize myself,
Speaker 3: and there are clearly lots of things in that list
Speaker 3: that are not me.
Speaker 5: I'm not at any parties with Albert. I'm starting the
Speaker 5: color and.
Speaker 4: I will say Yet, Kaminski says, this is not a pathology.
Speaker 4: It is not something you need to see a therapist for.
Speaker 4: It is not something that is a diagnosis. It is
Speaker 4: simply a different way of being.
Speaker 3: But whenever I look, you know, we will also love
Speaker 3: the introvert extrovert thing. The past ten years, as we know,
Speaker 3: it's just been introvert central and then extrovert's got a
Speaker 3: bad name, and then you know, brat Summer and people
Speaker 3: got a bit more extrovert.
Speaker 5: Wh yeah, blah blah.
Speaker 3: But whenever I think about that, I'm always like I'm
Speaker 3: neither of those things. Because when I read this, I
Speaker 3: was like, this is why I hide in the toilets
Speaker 3: at parties, but I never want my small friend dinners
Speaker 3: to end. Like I'm not an introvert in that I
Speaker 3: don't like socializing. I love socializing, but I like socializing
Speaker 3: with one person or two people. When I was reading
Speaker 3: this list, I was like, obviously, not all these things
Speaker 3: are true for me, right, but this is part of
Speaker 3: the list. It says these are the people who always
Speaker 3: prefer to have dinner with a friend one on one
Speaker 3: rather than attend a dinner party tick. When they have
Speaker 3: to attend large gatherings, they are the figure standing off
Speaker 3: to the side, deep in conversation with another person rather
Speaker 3: than working the room tick. They despise playing team sports
Speaker 3: tick and find the shared traditions of rituals of communal
Speaker 3: life like office parties, graduation ceremonies difficult and even baffling.
Speaker 5: Right tick tick tick.
Speaker 3: Like I love all the people I work with, but
Speaker 3: I do not want to be at a party with them.
Speaker 3: I don't like parties. I don't like big communal celebrations
Speaker 3: things I didn't relate to when it says you would
Speaker 3: rather do work assignments individually than in a group. Well,
Speaker 3: I'm a writer, so obviously yes. But also I do this,
Speaker 3: so obviously no. And I've worked in lots of teams,
Speaker 3: and I've led teams, and I've really enjoyed that. That
Speaker 3: bit doesn't strike such a chord with me. But when
Speaker 3: he wrote, unlike introvers most of whom would be completely
Speaker 3: drained from hours spent in a quiet corner of a
Speaker 3: pub talking with their closest friend. Otroverts tend to gain
Speaker 3: energy from these kinds of deep conversations. Sitting in a
Speaker 3: quiet corner of a pub talking to my dearest friend
Speaker 3: for hours is my idea of heaven.
Speaker 5: I would do that for a week. I think that
Speaker 5: sounds a little intense.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, So I did tick a lot of boxes,
Speaker 3: did this in my head, and I also thought about
Speaker 3: my kids and my partner, Like my daughter matured, she
Speaker 3: loves team sports like she loves that environment so much.
Speaker 5: It's a very big part.
Speaker 3: And I this is what I always say that one
Speaker 3: of the biggest lessons about parenting is how much your
Speaker 3: kids aren't you. I look at it with bafflement and
Speaker 3: wonder and I'm like, amazing. My son is much more
Speaker 3: like me. Brent has never met a party. He doesn't
Speaker 3: want to rip up like. He's always like can we go?
Speaker 3: And I'm like, oh no, it'll be awful. He's like,
Speaker 3: can we go?
Speaker 5: I'm like, you go.
Speaker 3: So I feel like, although the deep side of this,
Speaker 3: I'm not necessarily sure that I can tick the with
Speaker 3: the geniuses on a social front, because I always go, well,
Speaker 3: I'm not really an introvert and I'm not ann.
Speaker 4: Do you feel Have you gone through life feeling like
Speaker 4: you don't belong often?
Speaker 5: Yes?
Speaker 3: Like this bit I related to too, not to a
Speaker 3: tiny violin. But he quoted this kid who was getting
Speaker 3: this diagnosis as saying, I feel weird in a group
Speaker 3: situation you're talking about, like I'm not part of it,
Speaker 3: which is odd because these are all my friends and
Speaker 3: I know they like me and are happy I'm there,
Speaker 3: but I still don't feel connected. I only feel lonely
Speaker 3: or bored when I'm with many people, and not when
Speaker 3: I'm with one or two close friends or when i'm alone.
Speaker 3: And that's true, Like I always feel really weird in
Speaker 3: big groups, and that's so funny and I don't know
Speaker 3: why how about that maybe I do?
Speaker 4: And do you relate to this at all?
Speaker 5: I just okay, so you found out you're an otrovert?
Speaker 5: Like now what?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 2: Now what happens? Like I want to pull a Jemia
Speaker 2: M kirkcard here. Yeah, because I was learning about otrovat
Speaker 2: and I'm like, oh my god, I think I'm an otrovert,
Speaker 2: but maybe I have extravert tendencies. But I've been feeling
Speaker 2: a bit in about it lately. And then I was like,
Speaker 2: ww j k D what would you mind?
Speaker 1: Kid?
Speaker 5: Do do you tell me I'm thinking about myself way
Speaker 5: too much? And she'd be right. We all are what.
Speaker 2: I don't like about when we create labels that aren't
Speaker 2: diagnosis on people, it gives people the excuse to do
Speaker 2: things their way. So now I know, hole, when I
Speaker 2: have my big thirtieth birthday next year, you're going to
Speaker 2: be like, hey, and remember how I'm an otrovert. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know I don't like big setting, so I can't
Speaker 2: come to your party. Let me know when you want
Speaker 2: to have a one on one dinner, say.
Speaker 4: I I'm going to push back on you with that.
Speaker 4: I had never had my belief that everyone should belong
Speaker 4: and everyone should want to belong. I had never had
Speaker 4: that belief challenge before, and this blew my mind. They
Speaker 4: were talking about parenting a kid who doesn't want to
Speaker 4: join in, and you go, no, but you've got to
Speaker 4: join in. You've got to be part of a group
Speaker 4: that's really really important, and it's like, not everyone is
Speaker 4: the same, and we do so sometimes pathologize or fret
Speaker 4: about some personality traits that are just on the spectrum
Speaker 4: of normal.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's it's so fun, absolutely, and I think it's
Speaker 3: not to pathologize it, but I think that it's very
Speaker 3: helpful to just understand that you can be all of
Speaker 3: these things and still be happy and fulfilled. Like when
Speaker 3: I say that I feel weird in groups, it's not
Speaker 3: like a sad thing like that I need someone to
Speaker 3: come and put their arm around me and talk to
Speaker 3: me deeply about something intense, Like it's not that it's
Speaker 3: just even though I'm a very competent speaker, know how
Speaker 3: to ask questions and like integrate myself into a group.
Speaker 3: Obviously I've done it a million times in my job
Speaker 3: and my life.
Speaker 5: I always feel.
Speaker 3: Other in those situations, like even with a group of
Speaker 3: people I know, well, I always feel like I shouldn't
Speaker 3: really be there, So this is helpful because it's just like, oh,
Speaker 3: maybe I'm just And then I also think that maybe
Speaker 3: my life choices, like moving across the other side of
Speaker 3: the world when I was young, all of those kinds
Speaker 3: of things have also probably made me a bit like
Speaker 3: that too, you know what I mean, Like that you're
Speaker 3: a singular une rather than the unit in a try.
Speaker 4: Maybe you were also better equipped to make those decisions,
Speaker 4: those decisions that would have been terrifying for people. If
Speaker 4: you've always seen yourself as an individuals rather than part
Speaker 4: of a group, or you never really identified with being
Speaker 4: from Manchester, or you never really and you just see
Speaker 4: people on their individual basis, then it makes sense that
Speaker 4: you would be more brave in some ways.
Speaker 3: Doesn't that also sound like you might be more self
Speaker 3: interested in selfish?
Speaker 7: I don't.
Speaker 5: Yes, you're protecting your peace too much. It's not always
Speaker 5: all about you.
Speaker 2: Like I understand parents feeling like, oh so my kids fine,
Speaker 2: and like they just don't actually want to go, but
Speaker 2: also sometimes you have to force your kid to go,
Speaker 2: Like they have to go, they have to join in.
Speaker 4: Ye have to like it. I do think that, but
Speaker 4: I was also I wrote something recently and I was
Speaker 4: thinking about last year I went to Northern Ireland and
Speaker 4: it was my mind was blown by my experience of
Speaker 4: Northern Ireland. Never been anywhere like it, and to me
Speaker 4: it crystallized so much about history. I felt like I
Speaker 4: landed there and I was like, Wow, this just puts
Speaker 4: a whole framework on like wars and disagreements and groupthink.
Speaker 4: And I say that because in Northern Ireland you've got
Speaker 4: these two very distinct groups. You've got the Protestants and
Speaker 4: the Catholics and the Catholics. And if dry Girls taught
Speaker 4: me one thing, Protestants and Catholics living virtually side by
Speaker 4: side in neighborhoods, and they cannot even sit in the
Speaker 4: same pub together, like they hate each other. And you
Speaker 4: were brought up and we had a Protestant cab driver
Speaker 4: and I asked him a bunch of questions and like
Speaker 4: he'd never spoke to a Catholic, he would never like
Speaker 4: they you don't go to school together. You subscribed to
Speaker 4: completely different narratives. History is different for you. You are
Speaker 4: taught different histories in class, right, And if you think
Speaker 4: about some of the worst atrocities that have happened throughout
Speaker 4: human history, group think is responsible for them. This psychiatrist
Speaker 4: writes a lot about the hive mind, like the idea
Speaker 4: that when you're part of a hive, it's not just
Speaker 4: that you're all together and you're protective, but you've got
Speaker 4: to subscribe to the same ideology and beliefs and thoughts
Speaker 4: even when the logic stops making sense, right, and just
Speaker 4: so you can stay in that case, Yeah, because that's
Speaker 4: your primary desire. This is why ultroverts are so important.
Speaker 4: I was just thinking about them and how necessary they
Speaker 4: are to communities, Like oltroverts are the people that go
Speaker 4: this is kind of weird, Like this isn't really making
Speaker 4: sense to me. This is something I'm going to challenge.
Speaker 4: They don't necessarily think the belonging is the most important thing.
Speaker 3: I feel oppressed by that kind of yeah, like not
Speaker 3: oppressed in the serious way. I'm not an oppressed person,
Speaker 3: for God's sake, Like I'm you know, middle aged white lady.
Speaker 3: But I find it oppressive. That's the I've always been
Speaker 3: deeply uncomfortable with patriotism of any kind. And although I
Speaker 3: love some kinds of belonging, like I love being at
Speaker 3: a football match or whatever.
Speaker 2: I just don't like being on the team or at
Speaker 2: a concert where you all love the But then I
Speaker 2: also stop pulling away from it because I'll be like, well,
Speaker 2: I really my team to win, but now they're kind
Speaker 2: of winning, and I feel really uncomfortable about that.
Speaker 4: And then I'm like, I don't know, I know, part
Speaker 4: of the group.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I know. I can't be part of the group
Speaker 5: who's all cheering for that thing. I don't know.
Speaker 3: It's it's weird to like, I sound like I'm beings
Speaker 3: such a precious little snowflake. But it's like when I
Speaker 3: read this, too, are related to a lot of it
Speaker 3: in that way. Is that I think we do all
Speaker 3: want to belong and I want to belong to the
Speaker 3: people who I want to belong with, But I also feel,
Speaker 3: you know, like a wolf with my leg in the
Speaker 3: in the trap when I feel when the belonging is pushed.
Speaker 5: On me too much. So do you experience fomo? Not much?
Speaker 3: Right, not much at all? I mean, obviously about things
Speaker 3: I really want to do, but I often will be
Speaker 3: once it becomes a critical mass, I'm like, oh no,
Speaker 3: I don't want it. I don't know anyway I sound.
Speaker 3: Isn't it funny much too much?
Speaker 5: As Jemia M.
Speaker 4: Kirkwould say that you are semi resisting the label of Otrovit.
Speaker 5: Wonder very interesting if critical.
Speaker 4: To outroverts is them going, I'm not a perfect otrivit.
Speaker 4: I'm not like all the other outroverts. I'm a very
Speaker 4: specific kind of outrivat. It just reminded me though, that
Speaker 4: it's like, you couldn't have a world full of otroverts
Speaker 4: be chaos. It'd be anarchy. It'd be very independent and
Speaker 4: like to be a lone birthday it'd be oh my god,
Speaker 4: there would be no birthday parties, there would be no community.
Speaker 4: But you need them in a society that has all
Speaker 4: the other different types of people. And I quite liked that,
Speaker 4: and it made me understand why some people in my
Speaker 4: life might seem a little rebellious. There was a term
Speaker 4: that he used, which was that they're sort of meek rebels,
Speaker 4: like they don't try and do something wrong for the
Speaker 4: sake of it. But it also explains why they can
Speaker 4: feel very exhausted from pretending to be part of a
Speaker 4: even like you know, workforces, we've become so obsessed with
Speaker 4: the team a part of the team. If you're not
Speaker 4: part of the team, then there's no there's no iron tea,
Speaker 4: there's no And it's like that pretending can be very
Speaker 4: exhausting for people.
Speaker 3: So yeah, and I think that what it is is
Speaker 3: that often when you do belong to a group, whatever
Speaker 3: kind of group it is, the thing that feels suffocating
Speaker 3: is that you're expecting to co sign on all of
Speaker 3: these things and nearly always, whether it's you know, a
Speaker 3: political position that I might hold that I would have
Speaker 3: a million things in common with the other people who
Speaker 3: hold that, but of course there will be five things
Speaker 3: on that list that you don't.
Speaker 4: Know and you're not willing to compromise on, and you're like.
Speaker 3: I'm not here for that, you know. And so I
Speaker 3: think that that's why it's tricky if you're an outrovert
Speaker 3: to join anything. I also think, not to be too
Speaker 3: wanky about it, but it's probably useful for a rider,
Speaker 3: because the cliche about riders is you're an observer, right,
Speaker 3: You're always a little bit on the outside looking, and
Speaker 3: like I love looking at families because I'm not part
Speaker 3: of a big family and all those things closure blind.
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, they.
Speaker 5: Like watching it.
Speaker 3: I think that that is probably a bit otroverty of
Speaker 3: me too. I hope this has made sense to some
Speaker 3: out louders that you're like, oh yeah, now I know
Speaker 3: what I am, and and I'll be like, who cares what.
Speaker 5: She's right, it's coming to my birthday. I promise I'll
Speaker 5: come to thank you so much. Yeah. Yeah, I'll just.
Speaker 3: Find someone to talk to. I've got a little bit
Speaker 3: of news to share with the group. You know how
Speaker 3: sometimes we do this on Friday, and sometimes it's big,
Speaker 3: Like it's big, like me is taking a break or whatever.
Speaker 3: I've just got something very important to Last week, Brent
Speaker 3: and I won pop trivia for the first time. So
Speaker 3: Thursday nights it's our date night. Yeah, two little lotroverts
Speaker 3: refusing to join a big team.
Speaker 5: You guys are smallest. It's a team of two. Wow,
Speaker 5: just me and him.
Speaker 4: Oh no, Holly, Holly, no, no, no, this is this
Speaker 4: is a competitive disadvanta. This is what I find interesting
Speaker 4: about trivia, right, there's a threshold at which too many
Speaker 4: becomes a disadvantage.
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, because they can't agree.
Speaker 4: Exactly, and you start going, you guys are distracting.
Speaker 5: And then you forget to do the sheet and you're
Speaker 5: just drinking and exactly.
Speaker 4: And it's like you're very distracting. I think probably five
Speaker 4: or six might be the idea.
Speaker 3: It's our date night, right, because we're that exciting that
Speaker 3: on Thursday nights we go around the corner to the
Speaker 3: local pub and we play trivia.
Speaker 4: Your knowledge is like, how long have we been doing this.
Speaker 3: Since we moved to where we live and you've only
Speaker 3: just only just one.
Speaker 5: This is how exciting it is.
Speaker 3: But the main thing I need to share with you
Speaker 3: in the out loud is the two things that got
Speaker 3: us over the line.
Speaker 7: Oh.
Speaker 3: Number one, this is very out louder coded. They had
Speaker 3: one of those who are my around you know where
Speaker 3: they read out like facts about.
Speaker 4: That is my skill.
Speaker 3: And the first two only took me to the first
Speaker 3: two was I was born on February eleventh, nineteen sixty nine.
Speaker 3: I was born in Sherman Oaks, California. And I leapt
Speaker 3: from my seat and I said, Amber, that's the name
Speaker 3: of our trivia master, Amber, I said, Amber, it's Jennifer Aniston.
Speaker 5: And it was Jennifer, Oh my god. The other one
Speaker 5: did everyone look at you like you're a goness? Well no,
Speaker 5: they looked to me like there was something wrong with me.
Speaker 3: Because who knows from only those two facts that it
Speaker 3: was Jennifer Aniston.
Speaker 5: Oh my god, you're going to be known as the
Speaker 5: Jennifer Aniston woman Trivia.
Speaker 3: And the other thing was a beout. Jesse knows this.
Speaker 3: What is a sapio sexual attracted to?
Speaker 5: Okay? Why did you not think? I know that? That
Speaker 5: is insane? Gone? What does a sap sexual fund attractive? Okay?
Speaker 5: So it's sapio and nature is what I'm thinking, which
Speaker 5: means like sapio sounds like cpia.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I love it.
Speaker 5: Are you sexually attracted to?
Speaker 4: This is why you want too many people on your team?
Speaker 5: Olden day movies, it's quite close. That would be quite hot.
Speaker 4: But Jesse, isn't it when you're attracted to someone's brain?
Speaker 8: Yes?
Speaker 2: Course you knew that.
Speaker 3: It's intelligence and I was Trivia. Who knew that its
Speaker 3: because why we were?
Speaker 8: You know?
Speaker 4: My other special skill is when they get the sheet
Speaker 4: out of celebrities as children, Yes, and they're like, who's this?
Speaker 4: And I'm like, give me the pen. This is one
Speaker 4: that I got. What does Bob Prevost from Chicago have
Speaker 4: in common with three billion people?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 5: He's a pope. He's the Pope.
Speaker 4: Okay, the thing. We're all sitting there and we're going,
Speaker 4: he's ahead of a tech company? Did he create national
Speaker 4: broadband network? Like we're all doing it? And then I
Speaker 4: had this moment. I was like, Bop from Chicago, why
Speaker 4: is it ringing a bell? And I was like, who's
Speaker 4: the fucking part? I was so excited. That's such a
Speaker 4: good questions, such a good one because it doesn't sound
Speaker 4: like the Pope doesn't.
Speaker 3: Nothing like pub trivia, I'm telling you, like the people
Speaker 3: who played pub trivia. A small town, we all vaguely
Speaker 3: know each other. So whenever the celebrity sheets come out, they're.
Speaker 4: Like, Oh, here we go.
Speaker 2: Are you win a metre one hundred dollars out to
Speaker 2: spend in the pub? Oh my god, that's amazing.
Speaker 4: That's amazing, big weekend.
Speaker 5: That's actually quite exciting. So there go.
Speaker 3: That was the important thing to share with the group. Now,
Speaker 3: I'm sure we've got more important things.
Speaker 2: To talk about out louders after the break, we have
Speaker 2: some recommendations that you can watch all weekends.
Speaker 3: One unlimited out loud access. We drop episodes every Tuesday
Speaker 3: and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers follow the link
Speaker 3: in the show notes to get us in your ears
Speaker 3: five days a week, and a huge thank you to
Speaker 3: all our current subscribers.
Speaker 7: Vibes ideas atmosphere, something casual, something fun.
Speaker 9: This is my best recommendation.
Speaker 2: It is Friday, and we want to help set up
Speaker 2: your weekend with our very best recommendation.
Speaker 5: Holly, do you want to kick it off?
Speaker 9: I do.
Speaker 3: I have a recommendation for a TV show that's on
Speaker 3: Binge and it's called Mixtape.
Speaker 7: Right, you never forget the boy who makes you your
Speaker 7: first mixtape.
Speaker 8: One dance.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna walk you on one dance, but you won't
Speaker 3: be walking me on.
Speaker 7: Kay.
Speaker 1: I know when you're shutting me out.
Speaker 5: Allie, soon it don't just up and leave home.
Speaker 6: It's seventeen.
Speaker 7: I will shit it bath.
Speaker 3: She's not coming back. Theresa Palmer is like the busiest one.
Speaker 5: She's everywhere.
Speaker 8: Does she have.
Speaker 5: Four fourteen children?
Speaker 3: She has so many children and she's so amazing, but
Speaker 3: she seems to be in everything at the moment.
Speaker 5: Okay, I'm going to need you to step it up.
Speaker 5: She's in this.
Speaker 3: So Mixtape is a four part show. Now it's interesting
Speaker 3: because it's a co production between Ireland, England and Australia,
Speaker 3: and Theresa Palmer and Jim Sturgis who's a British actor
Speaker 3: who he was in the movie version of One Day
Speaker 3: with Anne Hathaway, you know, like back in the Oh.
Speaker 3: I love that movie and he's back in the Day
Speaker 3: last year and yes.
Speaker 4: No, it wasn't that. That was the original one, and
Speaker 4: there was one.
Speaker 3: Yes, here is the original Leo Woodhall many Steps. But anyway,
Speaker 3: it's called mixtape because it's about first love. So Theresa
Speaker 3: Palmer and Jim sturg just play people who are supposedly
Speaker 3: about my age and I tell you what, Theresa Palmer
Speaker 3: not my age. But they put a few wrinkles on
Speaker 3: her and here we go and they are dreaming of
Speaker 3: reconnecting with their first love, who was each other. And
Speaker 3: they fell in love at high school.
Speaker 5: So it's a story that's told.
Speaker 3: On two Front's reason it's called mixtape is because when
Speaker 3: they met at a school party in Sheffield in the
Speaker 3: north of England when they were young, they bonded over
Speaker 3: music of the time and because it was dining in
Speaker 3: eighty nine or whatever, the music is amazing, so there's
Speaker 3: an amazing soundtrack. But anyway, fast forward thirty years or whatever,
Speaker 3: twenty five years. They are now both married to other people.
Speaker 3: She lives in Australia, he lives still in Sheffield, and
Speaker 3: things happen that mean that they come back into each
Speaker 3: other's mind and they reconnect by sending each other songs
Speaker 3: on Spotify, which is they never talked. They're not friends
Speaker 3: on Facebook or anything, which is something I've never thought
Speaker 3: to do, but now I feel the need to do it. Yeah,
Speaker 3: songs anyway, and then what happens is it explores, you know, why.
Speaker 5: Did these people ever break up?
Speaker 3: Blah blah blah blah blah. Are they going to get together?
Speaker 3: He traveled to Australia, doesn't really work.
Speaker 4: So it's like it's is it like a straight drama?
Speaker 5: Like it's a drama.
Speaker 3: It's got quite heavy themes because you find out from
Speaker 3: the young versions of them, like the reasons why they
Speaker 3: broke up. There's quite a lot of trauma in Allison,
Speaker 3: who's Theresa Partner's character's background that he was never really
Speaker 3: aware of because she would never open up her family
Speaker 3: to him and stuff. So there's like it's really interesting.
Speaker 3: It's one of those TV shows that I can't stop
Speaker 3: thinking about because it's not like perfect.
Speaker 5: There's a weird casting. It's always really hard.
Speaker 3: To depict the partners of people who aren't the right partners,
Speaker 3: do you know what I mean? So he's got a
Speaker 3: wife and she's got a husband, and you're a little
Speaker 3: bit like I'm not quite sure why you two would be.
Speaker 3: But anyway, the whole question, of course, is are they gonna, yeah, reconnect.
Speaker 3: They're clearly meant for each other on this deep level,
Speaker 3: and are they going to reconnect? And it's just a
Speaker 3: really lovely, slightly challenging TV show with an amazing.
Speaker 4: Soundtrack, and it's called Mixtape and great em what's your record?
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm recommending a fairly new TV show.
Speaker 5: Out on Disney Plus. It's called Alien Earth.
Speaker 1: How's our Girl?
Speaker 5: She's ready.
Speaker 7: You're going to be the first person to transition from
Speaker 7: a human body.
Speaker 5: To a synthetic because I'm special.
Speaker 2: That's right, You're very.
Speaker 7: Very special.
Speaker 4: It's popped up for me.
Speaker 2: Oh, it's part of the Alien franchise. I was really
Speaker 2: interested in this because it went viral before the show
Speaker 2: even came out, because it had over a two hundred
Speaker 2: and fifty million dollar budget, which is very very rare
Speaker 2: for TV shows, so they're really backing this show.
Speaker 4: This is like that's a movie budget.
Speaker 2: It's like a Game of Thrones budget, like massive, massive budget.
Speaker 2: Watch the first episode if you're a fan of like
Speaker 2: it's not like super super horror like the original Alien
Speaker 2: movies with Sigourney Weaver. It's more like creepy dystopian. It's
Speaker 2: still a bit bloody, what's it like? The special effects
Speaker 2: are insane and like the prop so it's just so good.
Speaker 2: So basically the premise of it is like our world
Speaker 2: in the future, there's no more government. Instead, it's these
Speaker 2: massive evil corporations that basically own countries country.
Speaker 5: Is that about the future, It's like about right now.
Speaker 2: So what's happening with these companies is that they all
Speaker 2: are working on how to make everyone immortal, and there
Speaker 2: are like.
Speaker 5: Awsome like a documentary.
Speaker 2: There are three contenders on immortality. There's the cyborgs, which
Speaker 2: are humans but enhanced. There's the synths, which are just
Speaker 2: artificial beings, and then the hybrids, which are artificial beings
Speaker 2: with the human conscious. And these three are competing kind
Speaker 2: of like how AI like Chatchy compet like Pupactica like
Speaker 2: that that's one of them wants to be the best,
Speaker 2: and then the alien comes and just sucks up everything.
Speaker 3: And when you say it's part of the Alien Frontise,
Speaker 3: you mean like Alien the movie.
Speaker 5: Yeah, like the movie.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean she's not in it, sadly, but
Speaker 2: there's like, yeah, there's like some beautiful scenes that like
Speaker 2: kind of replicate the original Alien when they're all sitting
Speaker 2: at the dinner table laughing in the spaceship. What's really
Speaker 2: different about this alien if you're a fan of the
Speaker 2: Alien movie, is that all the alien movies take place
Speaker 2: either in space or on the aircraft. This one takes
Speaker 2: place on Earth, so the aircraft like lands on Earth,
Speaker 2: so you actually see the aliens on Earth. And the
Speaker 2: special effects are insane, Like it's so so well done,
Speaker 2: but it is a bit scary, So if you have
Speaker 2: little eyes around, it's great.
Speaker 4: My recommendation is a three part Netflix documentary. Has anyone
Speaker 4: watched Amy Bradley is missing?
Speaker 7: No?
Speaker 5: Seen it? Pop up? Yes? Come up? Seeing it? Ever
Speaker 5: something to do with the cruise ship?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 5: Have you ever wanted to kill somebody?
Speaker 8: Just take them on a cruise exactly?
Speaker 1: What has happened to their daughter.
Speaker 9: Is a mystery You'll Never Get.
Speaker 6: Caught Welcomeboard the MS Rhapsody of the Seas.
Speaker 9: Amy Bradley was twenty three and she was on her
Speaker 9: family vacation.
Speaker 3: Was crystal clear, her life was good, everything was great.
Speaker 3: Thought of theory tomorrow and went to bed.
Speaker 4: Around five thirty in the morning, I saw Amy on
Speaker 4: the balcony six o'clock.
Speaker 6: Woke up again.
Speaker 2: She wasn't there.
Speaker 4: Kept seeing it pop up, and I was like, I
Speaker 4: don't know, Like, she goes missing on her cruise, Like
Speaker 4: how how complicated can it be? Yeah, Anyway, we started watching.
Speaker 4: It's about this twenty three year old woman who gets
Speaker 4: on this cruise shit with her family in nineteen ninety eight,
Speaker 4: and she's last seen at five am by her dad.
Speaker 4: She's just out on the balcony. He thinks she's probably
Speaker 4: asleep or something, can see her legs. And then at
Speaker 4: six am he kind of wakes with a start because
Speaker 4: he hears something and he notices that the door's open
Speaker 4: to the room, looks like she's changed her shirt, and
Speaker 4: he's like, oh, she must have gone up for a
Speaker 4: coffee or whatever. So he goes up and tries to
Speaker 4: find her, cannot find her. Hours pass and they're like,
Speaker 4: where has she gone? And so they say to the
Speaker 4: captain and you know, try and escalate it, and they say,
Speaker 4: because the ship's about to dock, they go, before we
Speaker 4: dock the ship, can we please find her because we
Speaker 4: can't find her anywhere. And they're like no, like this
Speaker 4: is part of the ship that they get to go
Speaker 4: out to this new island and see things. And they're like,
Speaker 4: please don't dock Anyway, they dock, they open the doors.
Speaker 4: By this point, a lot of people are thinking she's
Speaker 4: fallen overboard, like whether that's on purpose or whether it's
Speaker 4: by accident. But the twists that come in the next
Speaker 4: two episodes about sightings of her, about people who say
Speaker 4: they've had interactions with her that are so compelling, like
Speaker 4: seems so real.
Speaker 3: Because I would have read about this case right, and
Speaker 3: generally she went overboard, yeah, but nobody knows why.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 5: But her family thinks she went overboard.
Speaker 4: No, and the reason why is because they were actually
Speaker 4: quite close to a coastline when she would have gone overboard,
Speaker 4: and all the locals, the coast guard are going, we
Speaker 4: know our waters. Someone goes overboard, they wash up. There
Speaker 4: is no world in which she doesn't wash up, Like
Speaker 4: that's really weird. And so all these bizarre things happen
Speaker 4: and you just think, how does someone go missing on
Speaker 4: a cruise ship? Like it's mind blowing. So that's really
Speaker 4: good three part documentary on Netflix. But I want to
Speaker 4: throw an extra one who here has seen the f
Speaker 4: one movie?
Speaker 5: You know?
Speaker 2: I saw the opening weekend and I wrote many, many
Speaker 2: things about it.
Speaker 3: Okay, she has seen it. I saw it on the
Speaker 3: weekend like you did, Jesse, in my living room. I
Speaker 3: know it's meant for a big screen, but the biggest
Speaker 3: screen I could get for it is in my living room.
Speaker 4: Because on Apple TV, like I thoroughly enjoyed it. Is
Speaker 4: it a good film? Would we say no?
Speaker 5: I didn't think it was. Like I enjoyed it. I
Speaker 5: didn't think it was a good film. I wanted to
Speaker 5: talk about it too, okay, because.
Speaker 4: I just I really enjoyed my Saturday night. It was
Speaker 4: a real spectacle. Like the amount of people that were involved.
Speaker 5: With you excited.
Speaker 3: There were a lot of people from Drive to Survive
Speaker 3: in that bave and I could tell and.
Speaker 4: Was that movie made for us? Like as in people
Speaker 4: who have Drive to Survive? Send me know the rules,
Speaker 4: don't totally know the rules and therefore can defy logic
Speaker 4: and just understand that Brad Pitt could return to F one.
Speaker 3: As a sixty year old. But also so it was made.
Speaker 3: The reason I was excited to see it in the
Speaker 3: first place, because I'm not a big F one person
Speaker 3: like you are, is that it's made by the people
Speaker 3: who made Top Gun Maverick. Now, I went on and
Speaker 3: on about Top Gun Maverick a couple of years ago
Speaker 3: when it came out because I haven't had a better
Speaker 3: time at the movies in years than I did when
Speaker 3: I won't see that, And I know Tom Cruise is problematic,
Speaker 3: and so's Brad Pitt, let's be honest, but just so great,
Speaker 3: so much fun, couldn't get over it. Made by the
Speaker 3: same people, budget the size of a small country, like
Speaker 3: films everywhere in the world, and it's pretty much the
Speaker 3: same premise, which is dude over hill, Yeah, comes back
Speaker 3: to show those youngsters what he's made of what they've made.
Speaker 3: So you're appealing there to a whole lot of people,
Speaker 3: the Gen x's who are like, I'm not over the hill,
Speaker 3: I've still got it, and the young people and all
Speaker 3: the new F one fans and people who are like
Speaker 3: Brad Pitt but very compelling. But I was like halfway
Speaker 3: through it and I thought, oh, Brad, I thought, even
Speaker 3: putting aside what we now know about what happened, and
Speaker 3: we've talked about this on the.
Speaker 4: Show before, which is very difficult.
Speaker 3: We didn't episode called what do we do with a
Speaker 3: problem like Brad Pitt? So even putting that aside, and
Speaker 3: just I can appreciate the beauty of that amazing Cuman.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but like he's better than that. He used to
Speaker 2: be better than that. Terrible dialogue, but don't you reckon?
Speaker 4: I just walked out of that. And when Brad Pitt,
Speaker 4: how old is he?
Speaker 5: He's sixty one years old.
Speaker 4: So he's accomplished so much. He's got all the money
Speaker 4: in the world. He's heading to sixty and he goes,
Speaker 4: what do you want to do?
Speaker 1: Brad?
Speaker 4: Right, he looks in the mirror, goes, what do you
Speaker 4: want to do? I'd like to drive an F one
Speaker 4: carve really fast.
Speaker 5: I just like he's like that Tom Cruise Fellow, feels
Speaker 5: like he's got to figure it out.
Speaker 4: Yes, And I think he went I'd like to be
Speaker 4: friends with Lewis Hamilton.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'd like, which is fair?
Speaker 4: I mean I wouldam And so he's like, what would
Speaker 4: be fun to do? I'd like to join F one?
Speaker 4: And I feel as though the whole project was sort
Speaker 4: of a vanity project for Brad Pitt to be like,
Speaker 4: this is every sixty year old man's dream. Did you
Speaker 4: know that this is the highest grossing Brad Pitt movie
Speaker 4: of all time?
Speaker 5: Is it? Indeed? It is so one thing? I don't know.
Speaker 5: You can tell me.
Speaker 3: Has it been deemed the success that it needed to
Speaker 3: be to pay for that small nation?
Speaker 4: And they're talking about a sequel? It has made so
Speaker 4: much money and a lot of people like the reviews
Speaker 4: are bad, the reviews actually on that mad The reason
Speaker 4: not like the average person was.
Speaker 3: The script that upset me And okay, that's not what
Speaker 3: you're there for, but like, come on, some of the lines,
Speaker 3: brad Pitt's got it coming out of his mouth. I'm like,
Speaker 3: I bet he went home and counted after that.
Speaker 5: I could tell, could.
Speaker 2: You tell, because I know we talked about how Simone
Speaker 2: Ashley was completely cut from the movie. Yeah, I could
Speaker 2: tell exactly how perfectly she would have slotted in what.
Speaker 4: Was going to be the love interest of the younger.
Speaker 2: Interests of the younger F one driver, which made more
Speaker 2: sense than Brad Pitt having a love interest. Simone Ashley
Speaker 2: is an actress. She's a Tamil actress from Britain and
Speaker 2: she was in season two Bridgeton. Everyone knows her from that.
Speaker 2: She's absolutely brilliant. She was also in sex Education. So
Speaker 2: the whole thing about her is that she was actually
Speaker 2: in the F one movie. She did the press for it,
Speaker 2: she was doing an interview with Sport. They completely cut
Speaker 2: her role out completely, like there's no sign effects.
Speaker 5: I f for like one photo or something.
Speaker 3: It tells us a lot about the moment we're in
Speaker 3: where you can pull in Brad Pitt, who's got a
Speaker 3: few issues in the closet.
Speaker 5: Let's just put it that way.
Speaker 3: You can cut the entire role of a talented young
Speaker 3: woman of color actress, and yet it's still the biggest
Speaker 3: closing movie of the last fucking damn it. The problem
Speaker 3: with the most beautiful people in the world, and he
Speaker 3: is one even with all his issues, and there are
Speaker 3: lots of other actors and actresses who fit this mold too.
Speaker 3: Is the problem with them being in any movie?
Speaker 5: Is you just any room.
Speaker 3: They walked into the entire dynamic of everything that could
Speaker 3: ever happen in that because you're just like a god.
Speaker 5: Just came down from like Brad Pitt just being.
Speaker 2: Like this schlubby walking under the pit lane with his
Speaker 2: jeans on, and we're all watching him walk for like
Speaker 2: that whole five minutes of watching him walk could have
Speaker 2: been Simone Ashley's not That.
Speaker 5: Was my favorite part.
Speaker 4: Oh my god, did you enjoy it? Would you recommend it?
Speaker 2: What I found really funny about it was the opening weekend,
Speaker 2: which was like its biggest weekend. Everyone went to watch
Speaker 2: it the first weekend and came out. The actual F
Speaker 2: one race that happened the weekend after, I think it
Speaker 2: was in silver Stone was the funniest race to watch.
Speaker 2: If that movie got you into F one, it was
Speaker 2: one of the only races where I think there was
Speaker 2: like a million penalties. Everyone was spinning out like people
Speaker 2: who started at eighteen came first.
Speaker 5: It was just a really funny race.
Speaker 4: Yes, which is kind of what that movie is about.
Speaker 4: Is about F one is.
Speaker 5: Like Brad Pitt out louders before we go.
Speaker 3: I'm still getting my head around the fact that's the
Speaker 3: biggest ever Brad Pitt grossing movie. What about Fight Club?
Speaker 3: What about Benjamin I'm not surprised. What about World War Z?
Speaker 4: That was Second.
Speaker 5: That's when I got Second.
Speaker 3: That's when I got to be in the room with him.
Speaker 3: I went to the premiere of that.
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, Jennifer Andison's birthday exactly.
Speaker 3: I also know Angelina Jolies, but like there's so many
Speaker 3: degrees about he doesn't I bet you don't remember their birthdays.
Speaker 5: Anyway, that's a conversation for an the time.
Speaker 3: Anyway, out Louders, Before we go, we have some very
Speaker 3: exciting news for any of you who loved Parenting Out Loud.
Speaker 4: Our sister podcast is coming back, and we wanted to
Speaker 4: give you a little bit of a clue about who
Speaker 4: one of the new hosts is because it might be familiar.
Speaker 4: If you're a long time out Louder, you might go, well,
Speaker 4: I think I recognize that voice.
Speaker 5: Ah, I would recognize that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, some original out Louders are going to be
Speaker 4: jumping up and down because that is the voice of
Speaker 4: the original Mama meare out Loud host Monique Bowlie. Right,
Speaker 4: we love Monique Bolyi. She's part of the DNA of
Speaker 4: this show.
Speaker 5: Of the law, still a good friend of all of ours.
Speaker 4: And here is a message from Mons.
Speaker 9: Hello out louders, It's Mons. Remember me. I went away
Speaker 9: for a long time. Now I'm back again, like a
Speaker 9: cockroach that you can't get rid of. I'm so excited
Speaker 9: because I'm going to be back in your ears tomorrow.
Speaker 9: On Parenting out Loud. It's all the things you love
Speaker 9: about out loud, culture, trends, explainers, a little bit of
Speaker 9: shit talking just about the biggest, most intense job in
Speaker 9: the world, parenting so exciting.
Speaker 3: Mon's is going to be doing it with Amelia.
Speaker 4: I feel like we are casting back to light seven
Speaker 4: years ago when it was a simpler time. But I
Speaker 4: feel like it's just I have not heard Mons's voice
Speaker 4: like that in such a long time. It is going
Speaker 4: to be the most fun Parenting out Loud hosted by
Speaker 4: Monique Bowley, Amelia Lester, and Stacy Hicks. Can I tell
Speaker 4: you something funny about Stacy? But I haven't told Stacy yet?
Speaker 2: Oh yes, please, because she was my old manager.
Speaker 9: Sir.
Speaker 4: Well, I'm watching my Amy Bradley is Missing documentary and
Speaker 4: they pop up an article from news dot com written
Speaker 4: by one Stacy Hick on the net Flix sty I
Speaker 4: haven't even told he yet, but yes, very exciting. Anyway,
Speaker 4: that Stacy Hicks is on Parenting out Loud, make sure
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Speaker 3: But if you keep listening, you are about to hear
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Speaker 3: the first episode of the new look Parenting out Loud
Speaker 3: at the end of this episode, so don't press stop.
Speaker 3: That is all we have time for today, though, friends.
Speaker 3: A massive thank you to all of you out louders
Speaker 3: for being.
Speaker 5: With us all week.
Speaker 3: We're going to be back in your ears on Monday.
Speaker 3: Jesse and them read us out.
Speaker 4: A big thank you to our team group executive producer
Speaker 4: Ruth Devine, executive producers Emmeline Gazillas and Sasha Tanic.
Speaker 2: Our senior auto producer is Leah Porge's, our video producer
Speaker 2: is Josh Green, and our junior content producers are Tessa
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Speaker 4: Bye Bye.
Speaker 8: I'm really curious if you think that this idea that
Speaker 8: the over therapization and that is a word I just
Speaker 8: made up. The over therapization of our culture is in
Speaker 8: part leading to this reluctance to have kids.
Speaker 9: Interesting theory. It's not the only thing. I mean, there's
Speaker 9: cost of living, there's work life balance, theres access to childcare,
Speaker 9: there's all of these other factors, mainly crushing cost of
Speaker 9: living and housing and job in security. But what an
Speaker 9: interesting theory that takes it beyond that into actually therapy culture.
Speaker 9: I think therapy culture has has a lot to answer for.
Speaker 9: It has been great in so many ways. Opening up
Speaker 9: discussions about mental health is always going to be a
Speaker 9: good thing, but it's not without its downsides, and I
Speaker 9: want to talk about I just want to put on
Speaker 9: the table the idea about friction in relationships for a minute.
Speaker 9: So I follow this culture analyst, I guess, and he
Speaker 9: was talking recently about how life is very frictionless for
Speaker 9: us now that tech companies have made all these apps
Speaker 9: so that we don't have to experience much discomfort anymore,
Speaker 9: so that when we do experience it, it feels very
Speaker 9: jarring to us and we're not resilient enough to handle it.
Speaker 9: So there is this stress response I guess where people
Speaker 9: will just flee an uncomfortable situation. Now, that is to say,
Speaker 9: a strang is obviously important for so many, like there
Speaker 9: would be abuse and toxic relationships and that's fine, But
Speaker 9: what you're talking about now merely is like this middle
Speaker 9: ground where people just feel uncomfortable about a relationship and
Speaker 9: so will estrange themselves from their parents. And I think
Speaker 9: we're very quick to remove friction now from our lives
Speaker 9: or not be able to sit with it. So is
Speaker 9: therapy culture making all of our relationships feel impossible to
Speaker 9: maintain because I think also.
Speaker 8: When you because it's holding us two impossible standards.
Speaker 9: Completely and it's bleeding into friendships. So once upon a
Speaker 9: time you might have had a friend that was a
Speaker 9: bit flaky and you'd roll your eyes and you'd be like, oh,
Speaker 9: come on, get it together. But now you say, no,
Speaker 9: these are my boundaries and you're toxic and I'm cutting
Speaker 9: you out of my life. And like in work culture too,
Speaker 9: I was a manager before I sat behind this microphone,
Speaker 9: and there's certainly as a manager now you have to
Speaker 9: have such a responsibility to be emotionally literate, Like there's
Speaker 9: lots of healing and affirming and trauma proofing that you
Speaker 9: have to do in the work, so is therapy culture.
Speaker 9: As you said Emelily, I'm making our relationships hard to maintain.
Speaker 8: And also just making it feel like parenting is an
Speaker 8: impossible task, like making people feel like, well, I could
Speaker 8: never have children because I can never be the perfect
Speaker 8: parent that i'd want to be.
Speaker 1: But I think that's just the volume of information there
Speaker 1: is now. Like I know, when I had my daughter
Speaker 1: and was struggling in the newborn days, I had this
Speaker 1: conversation with my mum where she was like, well, it's
Speaker 1: just that you've got too many answers. Now, you've got
Speaker 1: too many options. She was like, when I did it,
Speaker 1: I just had to figure it out. And that was
Speaker 1: kind of just her kind way of being like, can
Speaker 1: you stop reading about wake windows and just put your
Speaker 1: baby to sleep when they seem tired? Like you are
Speaker 1: making this so hard for yourself. And I think I
Speaker 1: had never even really thought about how I was parented
Speaker 1: until I became a parent and started getting all these
Speaker 1: TikTok videos that you speak of, Like I get them
Speaker 1: come up in my algorithm all the time, saying are
Speaker 1: you a chronic people pleaser who can sense the you know,
Speaker 1: the atmosphere change when people's moods change room, and I
Speaker 1: was like, yeah, I can, but I don't think that's
Speaker 1: my parent's fault. I think that's just my personality type.
Speaker 1: Like I think I'm just conscious of wanting everyone to
Speaker 1: be having a nice time. That's not something that they
Speaker 1: necessarily did wrong.
Speaker 9: Stacy, have you had therapy before?
Speaker 1: I only did after having my daughter, so very short
Speaker 1: amount of sessions after having.
Speaker 9: Do you remember, like what one of the first questions
Speaker 9: I asked you was?
Speaker 1: It was about my parents. It was all about the
Speaker 1: dynamic of my parents. And almost withholding from me, Ah,
Speaker 1: I've sussed this and we're going to get to why
Speaker 1: you're struggling with this now.
Speaker 9: Yeah, I hear that. Like one of the first questions
Speaker 9: you'll get asked in therapy if you can afford it
Speaker 9: to go and have it, is tell me about your childhood. Yeah,
Speaker 9: tell me about how you were parented. And so I
Speaker 9: don't think this is new. We are not the first
Speaker 9: generation to agonize about having kids or to blame parents
Speaker 9: for any psychological wobble like I think our parents were. Also,
Speaker 9: they probably didn't have the language or the words around it,
Speaker 9: but parents have them too.
Speaker 4: So fertility rates are at an all time low.
Speaker 8: So millennials are on track to be the generation with
Speaker 8: the least children in recorded history. And one point that's
Speaker 8: made in this article is that when you have children,
Speaker 8: you suddenly forgive your parents for all their perceived shortcomings.
Speaker 8: So you're like, oh, yeah, this is really hard. Yeah
Speaker 8: that's true, and I'm just struggling to do. I find
Speaker 8: myself saying to my children a line that I heard
Speaker 8: throughte my childhood, which is, I'm doing the very best
Speaker 8: I can, and why don't you appreciate the work I'm
Speaker 8: doing for you? And all of these lines are coming
Speaker 8: out of me because now I see that they're in
Speaker 8: fact true. I'm doing the best I can. Why can't
Speaker 8: you appreciate all the work I'm doing for you? When
Speaker 8: you have children, you realize that that's true. But if
Speaker 8: you don't have children, you don't realize that's true. And
Speaker 8: I wonder if there's a chicken and egg element here,
Speaker 8: is that what's contributing to these really high rates of
Speaker 8: family estrangement too, because people are not having that experience
Speaker 8: of oh wait, my parents are just human just like
Speaker 8: everyone else.
Speaker 1: Another reason I think that therapy could be contributing to
Speaker 1: more people choosing to be child free is that there
Speaker 1: is much more language now around our partners and the
Speaker 1: bad behaviors they might have. So you might be able
Speaker 1: to now recognize when someone is a narcissist, or when
Speaker 1: someone is gaslighting you, or when someone's just a bit
Speaker 1: of a douche, and you might choose not to procreate
Speaker 1: with them for that reason.
Speaker 9: I don't think you necessarily need to have had a child, though,
Speaker 9: to come to that understanding. So I've had seven years
Speaker 9: of therapy. I've spent fortune on it. Or save you
Speaker 9: the time and the money and.
Speaker 5: Therapy.
Speaker 9: One of the best things that my therapist ever said
Speaker 9: to me was what if they were just doing the
Speaker 9: best they could with the tools they had. Parenting out
Speaker 9: loud listen weekly wherever you get your podcasts.