1 00:00:06,552 --> 00:00:10,072 Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and 2 00:00:10,152 --> 00:00:15,112 Speaker 1: waters that this podcast was recorded on. You would be 3 00:00:15,232 --> 00:00:17,712 Speaker 1: pretty hard pressed to find an Aussie who doesn't know 4 00:00:17,792 --> 00:00:21,792 Speaker 1: the name Mark Chopper Reid, the convicted criminal, has been 5 00:00:21,832 --> 00:00:23,872 Speaker 1: the subject of his very own movie, played by the 6 00:00:23,872 --> 00:00:27,192 Speaker 1: incredible Eric Banner in a performance that anyone would find 7 00:00:27,192 --> 00:00:30,872 Speaker 1: difficult to fault. Chopper became a best selling author telling 8 00:00:30,912 --> 00:00:33,071 Speaker 1: tales of his life in and out of jail. He 9 00:00:33,152 --> 00:00:35,632 Speaker 1: toured the country telling his story, was a subject of 10 00:00:35,632 --> 00:00:38,992 Speaker 1: comedian Heath Franklin's impersonations, and has written himself into the 11 00:00:39,031 --> 00:00:41,992 Speaker 1: law of Australia's criminal past like no other except for 12 00:00:42,111 --> 00:00:45,872 Speaker 1: maybe Ned Kelly. Born in nineteen fifty four in Melbourne, 13 00:00:45,992 --> 00:00:49,392 Speaker 1: Chopper Reid spent only the equivalent of a single year 14 00:00:49,471 --> 00:00:51,952 Speaker 1: out of prison between the age of twenty and thirty eight. 15 00:00:52,431 --> 00:00:54,672 Speaker 1: He'd spent his first five years and at children's home, 16 00:00:54,832 --> 00:00:56,551 Speaker 1: and then made a ward of the state at fourteen. 17 00:00:57,192 --> 00:00:58,432 Speaker 2: He was a street thug. 18 00:00:58,432 --> 00:01:01,112 Speaker 1: Running with a gang of other young men, eventually learning 19 00:01:01,152 --> 00:01:04,232 Speaker 1: to steal from drug dealers instead of ordinary citizens because 20 00:01:04,632 --> 00:01:08,032 Speaker 1: it was much more profitable. He'd created a persona a 21 00:01:08,112 --> 00:01:10,872 Speaker 1: sort of Robin Hood type if robinhood On his stole 22 00:01:10,911 --> 00:01:14,592 Speaker 1: from criminals and then kept the prophets himself. A life 23 00:01:14,631 --> 00:01:17,672 Speaker 1: like this obviously would lead to being regularly arrested, and 24 00:01:17,712 --> 00:01:20,792 Speaker 1: in the mid seventies Chopper was sentenced to seventeen years 25 00:01:20,831 --> 00:01:25,271 Speaker 1: in Melbourne's notorious Pentridge Prison after a kidnapped attempt, a 26 00:01:25,312 --> 00:01:27,792 Speaker 1: seemingly clumsy plan to get a mate of his out 27 00:01:27,792 --> 00:01:28,312 Speaker 1: of the clink. 28 00:01:29,472 --> 00:01:30,632 Speaker 2: Inside, he would. 29 00:01:30,512 --> 00:01:32,991 Speaker 1: Learn to read and write, how to perfect his standover 30 00:01:33,072 --> 00:01:36,151 Speaker 1: man tactics, how to make connections, whether they be beneficial 31 00:01:36,271 --> 00:01:39,872 Speaker 1: or not, and how to tell a tall tale. He 32 00:01:39,872 --> 00:01:42,991 Speaker 1: would get caught up in behind the prison walls gang warfare. 33 00:01:43,232 --> 00:01:45,632 Speaker 1: The legend of Chopper born after he cut the tops 34 00:01:45,631 --> 00:01:47,472 Speaker 1: of his ears off to get a transfer out of 35 00:01:47,472 --> 00:01:49,592 Speaker 1: the prison wing he was in where he was fighting 36 00:01:49,592 --> 00:01:52,672 Speaker 1: for his life. As he cycled through the Victorian prison 37 00:01:52,712 --> 00:01:55,431 Speaker 1: system in the seventies and eighties, he would collect stories 38 00:01:55,432 --> 00:01:58,192 Speaker 1: from his fellow inmates. Then, with an embellishment here and 39 00:01:58,232 --> 00:02:01,151 Speaker 1: a slight twist of the truth there, he would repackage 40 00:02:01,192 --> 00:02:03,112 Speaker 1: them as his own exploits stories. 41 00:02:03,152 --> 00:02:04,712 Speaker 2: The Australian public. 42 00:02:04,632 --> 00:02:07,912 Speaker 1: Soaked up like a sponge in a water, with titles 43 00:02:07,912 --> 00:02:10,232 Speaker 1: like Hits and memories and how to shoot friends and 44 00:02:10,272 --> 00:02:14,072 Speaker 1: influence people. We lapped up the tales of life as 45 00:02:14,072 --> 00:02:17,632 Speaker 1: a career criminal, all the people he'd supposedly influenced, those 46 00:02:17,672 --> 00:02:20,032 Speaker 1: he'd reportedly violently attacked. 47 00:02:19,952 --> 00:02:21,752 Speaker 2: Others he'd claimed to have murdered. 48 00:02:22,472 --> 00:02:25,752 Speaker 1: But while he profited from his notoriety, he would also 49 00:02:25,792 --> 00:02:28,632 Speaker 1: do things that surprised us, like donating the profits he 50 00:02:28,672 --> 00:02:31,032 Speaker 1: made off the two thousand Eric Banna film about his 51 00:02:31,112 --> 00:02:34,432 Speaker 1: life to the Royal Children's Hospital in Melbourne. He was 52 00:02:34,472 --> 00:02:37,992 Speaker 1: a collision of entertainer and criminal, and hero and villain. 53 00:02:38,792 --> 00:02:47,552 Speaker 1: So which one was the true Mark Brandon Reid. I'm 54 00:02:47,592 --> 00:02:51,152 Speaker 1: Claire Murphy and this is True Crime Conversations, a podcast 55 00:02:51,192 --> 00:02:54,312 Speaker 1: exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the 56 00:02:54,312 --> 00:02:57,792 Speaker 1: people who know the most about them. Joba Reid was 57 00:02:57,832 --> 00:03:03,152 Speaker 1: feared by some, despised by others, revered by many, and 58 00:03:03,232 --> 00:03:05,192 Speaker 1: sought out by those who would want to profit by 59 00:03:05,232 --> 00:03:08,392 Speaker 1: his proximity to the ces under belly even I met 60 00:03:08,432 --> 00:03:11,032 Speaker 1: him once while working at a radio station in Port Lincoln, 61 00:03:11,032 --> 00:03:14,072 Speaker 1: at tiny town in regional South Australia. He was during 62 00:03:14,072 --> 00:03:16,952 Speaker 1: the country with Mark Jacko Jackson, the pair telling stories 63 00:03:16,952 --> 00:03:19,352 Speaker 1: of their lives Jacko on the Footy Field Chopper of 64 00:03:19,392 --> 00:03:22,512 Speaker 1: his time behind bars. Now, don't really remember any of 65 00:03:22,552 --> 00:03:26,032 Speaker 1: the conversation, but what I do remember is the feeling 66 00:03:26,112 --> 00:03:29,592 Speaker 1: of energy and zap in the air, and the chaos 67 00:03:29,632 --> 00:03:32,192 Speaker 1: that comes with having a personality like that in the room. 68 00:03:32,752 --> 00:03:35,472 Speaker 1: People were scared of saying something that might make Chopper 69 00:03:35,512 --> 00:03:38,192 Speaker 1: remember who you were. There were rumors that he would 70 00:03:38,232 --> 00:03:39,992 Speaker 1: single you out and make a fool of you, or 71 00:03:40,152 --> 00:03:43,272 Speaker 1: maybe he'd make life difficult for you if he wanted. Now, 72 00:03:43,312 --> 00:03:45,472 Speaker 1: none of that eventuated. Of course, whether any of that 73 00:03:45,552 --> 00:03:48,472 Speaker 1: was even true was also debatable, but the presence of 74 00:03:48,472 --> 00:03:51,952 Speaker 1: a man who talked a very big story can't be denied. 75 00:03:52,672 --> 00:03:56,632 Speaker 2: Did we glamorize that life that he led? Absolutely, and 76 00:03:56,712 --> 00:03:57,552 Speaker 2: our next. 77 00:03:57,272 --> 00:04:00,072 Speaker 1: Guest has no qualms about admitting that during his time 78 00:04:00,112 --> 00:04:03,192 Speaker 1: as a magazine writer, he cashed in on Chopper's notoriety. 79 00:04:03,232 --> 00:04:03,752 Speaker 2: Two. 80 00:04:04,232 --> 00:04:06,872 Speaker 1: Mark Dappan is the author of The First Murderer I 81 00:04:06,952 --> 00:04:09,552 Speaker 1: Ever Met, a collection of stories about the criminals he 82 00:04:09,632 --> 00:04:13,352 Speaker 1: spent time with over the years, including one Mark Chopper read, 83 00:04:13,872 --> 00:04:16,672 Speaker 1: even making it into one of Chopper's books himself. Even 84 00:04:16,672 --> 00:04:23,072 Speaker 1: if the story wasn't quite true, Mark joins us Now, Mike, 85 00:04:23,112 --> 00:04:25,872 Speaker 1: I'd love to kick off with if you could just 86 00:04:25,872 --> 00:04:28,832 Speaker 1: describe to me the day that you met Chopper Read 87 00:04:29,552 --> 00:04:32,912 Speaker 1: and what your first impressions were of him, and then 88 00:04:32,992 --> 00:04:35,112 Speaker 1: what impression you were left with at the end of 89 00:04:35,152 --> 00:04:35,872 Speaker 1: that encounter. 90 00:04:36,232 --> 00:04:39,672 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I'd better explain how our meeting came about. 91 00:04:40,192 --> 00:04:44,272 Speaker 3: So at the time, I was editor of Ralph Magazine. 92 00:04:43,752 --> 00:04:46,072 Speaker 1: Which for anyone under the age of thirty probably doesn't 93 00:04:46,072 --> 00:04:48,512 Speaker 1: remember now but has a quick idea of what Ralph 94 00:04:48,512 --> 00:04:49,192 Speaker 1: Magazine was. 95 00:04:49,712 --> 00:04:52,352 Speaker 3: If a lad's magazine, it was a genre that lived 96 00:04:52,392 --> 00:04:56,872 Speaker 3: for a very short time, a magazine aimed at kind 97 00:04:56,912 --> 00:05:00,671 Speaker 3: of convincing twenty five year old middle class men that 98 00:05:00,792 --> 00:05:04,752 Speaker 3: they are actually eighteen year old working class boys. At 99 00:05:04,752 --> 00:05:08,392 Speaker 3: the same time of Muma Mia Faint, in fact, was 100 00:05:09,352 --> 00:05:09,832 Speaker 3: in a. 101 00:05:09,832 --> 00:05:13,792 Speaker 4: Cosmo one two floors below us, several floors below us. 102 00:05:14,112 --> 00:05:18,032 Speaker 3: Anyway, I had read Chopper Read's first couple of books, 103 00:05:18,632 --> 00:05:23,992 Speaker 3: and parts of them seemed to me to be probably untrue. 104 00:05:24,112 --> 00:05:27,432 Speaker 3: And I spoke to some people who were characters in 105 00:05:27,472 --> 00:05:31,791 Speaker 3: those books who chop Out had attacked, not necessarily attacked physically, 106 00:05:32,112 --> 00:05:35,272 Speaker 3: but attacked their reputation, or they felt he had attacked 107 00:05:35,272 --> 00:05:39,592 Speaker 3: their reputation, and I got some journalists to interview them 108 00:05:39,712 --> 00:05:42,992 Speaker 3: for Ralph specifically, I've got someone to interview a guy 109 00:05:43,032 --> 00:05:46,671 Speaker 3: called Billy the Texan Longley, who was a painter and 110 00:05:46,712 --> 00:05:49,992 Speaker 3: Docker's hit man on the Melbourne waterfront back in the day. 111 00:05:51,632 --> 00:05:54,272 Speaker 3: Chopper had said in his first book that he had 112 00:05:54,312 --> 00:05:59,351 Speaker 3: protected Billy Longley in jail. Billy objected to the thought 113 00:05:59,632 --> 00:06:02,072 Speaker 3: he might need anyone to protect him because he was 114 00:06:02,112 --> 00:06:05,192 Speaker 3: this big, tough painter and Docker we ran an interview 115 00:06:05,232 --> 00:06:09,112 Speaker 3: in Ralph magazine saying that Bill had not been protected 116 00:06:09,152 --> 00:06:13,832 Speaker 3: by Chopper, and I received, to my astonishment, really after 117 00:06:13,872 --> 00:06:18,192 Speaker 3: he was published. I've seen this long letter handwritten entirely 118 00:06:18,192 --> 00:06:22,072 Speaker 3: in capitals as I remember, from Chopper. So it was 119 00:06:22,152 --> 00:06:27,032 Speaker 3: headed with Mark Brandon, Red Chopper whatever, and his Chopper's 120 00:06:27,072 --> 00:06:30,152 Speaker 3: phone number and his address in Tasmania where he was 121 00:06:30,192 --> 00:06:32,832 Speaker 3: living at the time, and then it was Billy Longley's 122 00:06:32,832 --> 00:06:36,752 Speaker 3: address and Billy Longley's phone number, and basically Chopper said, 123 00:06:36,872 --> 00:06:39,992 Speaker 3: I can't remember the exact words, but yeah, Billy's a 124 00:06:39,992 --> 00:06:43,872 Speaker 3: real hard man. Sure I'm soft. Yeah, if he came 125 00:06:43,912 --> 00:06:46,752 Speaker 3: to it, Oh, I'm terrified of Billy Longley. If you 126 00:06:46,792 --> 00:06:49,792 Speaker 3: want to talk more Jimmy call. So I gave him 127 00:06:49,792 --> 00:06:52,072 Speaker 3: a caall. I mean, mainly what I wanted to talk 128 00:06:52,112 --> 00:06:54,872 Speaker 3: about was why I should give him some money. This 129 00:06:54,952 --> 00:06:58,312 Speaker 3: was a bit of a recurring theme. He agreed eventually 130 00:06:58,352 --> 00:07:00,312 Speaker 3: to give me an interview if I gave him I 131 00:07:00,312 --> 00:07:04,072 Speaker 3: think it was five hundred dollars. This wasn't the last 132 00:07:04,112 --> 00:07:06,152 Speaker 3: time that he asked me or and did that. I 133 00:07:06,392 --> 00:07:10,512 Speaker 3: gave him five hundred dollars. So I flew down to Hobart, 134 00:07:11,552 --> 00:07:17,152 Speaker 3: and I guess my first impression of him was he 135 00:07:17,392 --> 00:07:23,632 Speaker 3: was I mean, he was very imposing certainly, and fearsome looking. 136 00:07:24,152 --> 00:07:26,792 Speaker 3: There's also a bit tamp you could kind of be 137 00:07:26,872 --> 00:07:30,392 Speaker 3: mentioned a chopper float at the Mardi Gras, with all 138 00:07:30,432 --> 00:07:34,432 Speaker 3: these scarred guys in leathers sort of done, I'm not 139 00:07:34,432 --> 00:07:40,952 Speaker 3: sure how they would have done throwing punches. Yeah, because 140 00:07:40,992 --> 00:07:47,512 Speaker 3: he had sort of an inadequate inadequate supply of the dentistry, 141 00:07:47,912 --> 00:07:50,672 Speaker 3: didn't have any teeth and certainly not many real ones. 142 00:07:50,992 --> 00:07:53,472 Speaker 3: He had a slight list, which of course kind of 143 00:07:53,512 --> 00:07:56,832 Speaker 3: also added to the camp equality, but not not at 144 00:07:56,872 --> 00:07:59,752 Speaker 3: which was to say, wouldn't have been terrifying to have 145 00:07:59,872 --> 00:08:06,472 Speaker 3: him come forward at you, I wasn't initially going for him. 146 00:08:06,552 --> 00:08:10,512 Speaker 3: I wasn't saying, like, the books aren't really true, are they, 147 00:08:11,032 --> 00:08:16,592 Speaker 3: although that became a theme as we talked, and he 148 00:08:16,832 --> 00:08:23,352 Speaker 3: was basically saying that the books are entertainment. As entertainment, yes, 149 00:08:23,552 --> 00:08:28,512 Speaker 3: maybe none of it's true. He was constantly Chopper's quite 150 00:08:28,552 --> 00:08:32,592 Speaker 3: unusual amoung criminal memoirists because most of the time they 151 00:08:32,672 --> 00:08:35,752 Speaker 3: deny crimes that they have committed, that that's the point 152 00:08:35,792 --> 00:08:38,912 Speaker 3: of the books. Often, whereas in Shopper's case, he was 153 00:08:38,952 --> 00:08:42,032 Speaker 3: admitting to crimes that not only had he not committed, 154 00:08:42,232 --> 00:08:45,352 Speaker 3: he'd never even been accused of, but he knew he 155 00:08:45,432 --> 00:08:49,712 Speaker 3: knew it would sell books. He was I mean, Shoupa 156 00:08:49,832 --> 00:08:52,872 Speaker 3: was a storyteller, a bubble, and a lot of crims 157 00:08:53,032 --> 00:08:56,072 Speaker 3: are really good storytellers. The reason they are really good 158 00:08:56,112 --> 00:09:00,032 Speaker 3: storytellers is that's all they do. Like when you're inside, 159 00:09:00,232 --> 00:09:04,072 Speaker 3: there's basically nothing to do, which is disgusting, and you 160 00:09:04,072 --> 00:09:07,152 Speaker 3: know they should be. There should be educational there should 161 00:09:07,192 --> 00:09:09,552 Speaker 3: be cultural programs, There should be all that, and there 162 00:09:09,592 --> 00:09:12,592 Speaker 3: are in some of the better jails, but in Penridge, 163 00:09:14,432 --> 00:09:17,232 Speaker 3: certainly in h Division, there has nothing to do but 164 00:09:17,432 --> 00:09:21,032 Speaker 3: fight and walk up and down the yard and tell stories. 165 00:09:21,272 --> 00:09:24,272 Speaker 3: That's what prisoners do. They tell each other the story 166 00:09:24,312 --> 00:09:27,832 Speaker 3: of their lives with their offenses. They turn around at 167 00:09:27,872 --> 00:09:29,631 Speaker 3: the end of the yard and they tell it again. 168 00:09:29,712 --> 00:09:31,912 Speaker 3: When new people come in, they tell it again. They 169 00:09:31,952 --> 00:09:34,952 Speaker 3: polish their stories, they work on the punchlines. They see 170 00:09:34,992 --> 00:09:37,512 Speaker 3: what makes people laugh and they keep that bid in. 171 00:09:37,552 --> 00:09:40,072 Speaker 3: They see what makes people drift away, and they cut 172 00:09:40,112 --> 00:09:42,672 Speaker 3: that bid out. So Chopper, who'd done so much of 173 00:09:42,712 --> 00:09:45,472 Speaker 3: his adult life in prison, had spent so much of 174 00:09:45,512 --> 00:09:49,312 Speaker 3: his adult life storytelling, so he was very good at it. 175 00:09:49,832 --> 00:09:52,432 Speaker 3: And he also but he's come to believe that it 176 00:09:52,552 --> 00:09:56,712 Speaker 3: wasn't necessary to tell true stories. They're just telling entertaining stories, 177 00:09:56,792 --> 00:10:00,472 Speaker 3: and stories in a way that would protect him. Like 178 00:10:01,072 --> 00:10:04,592 Speaker 3: if he convinced everybody else that he was too hard 179 00:10:04,592 --> 00:10:07,151 Speaker 3: to be touched, then perhaps no, but you would touch it. 180 00:10:07,672 --> 00:10:10,511 Speaker 3: I think that's a jail philosophy. I think it's a 181 00:10:10,552 --> 00:10:14,592 Speaker 3: philosophy that Chopper took outside with him as well. So 182 00:10:14,632 --> 00:10:17,432 Speaker 3: I'm listing to his stories. I got him to take 183 00:10:17,472 --> 00:10:21,072 Speaker 3: his shirt off, or perhaps my photography did, and he's 184 00:10:21,072 --> 00:10:24,952 Speaker 3: got this criss cross network of scarring all over his chest. 185 00:10:25,312 --> 00:10:30,431 Speaker 3: He's got scars all over the place sort of prison tattoos, 186 00:10:30,472 --> 00:10:34,072 Speaker 3: things that looked like school tattoos to the ordinary tattoos, 187 00:10:35,032 --> 00:10:38,432 Speaker 3: bynation in professional tattoos. We talked about his tattoos, and 188 00:10:38,512 --> 00:10:42,512 Speaker 3: we talked about his scars, and I suspect that, you know, 189 00:10:42,752 --> 00:10:47,912 Speaker 3: they were pretty much all self inflicted mm hm, which 190 00:10:48,152 --> 00:10:52,152 Speaker 3: is a tragedy in itself. And then Dropper introduced me 191 00:10:52,312 --> 00:10:55,752 Speaker 3: to his mate, Shane. I wouldn't have picked Shane as 192 00:10:55,792 --> 00:11:00,232 Speaker 3: a cream It's kind of a flash, not particularly big, 193 00:11:00,752 --> 00:11:04,552 Speaker 3: good looking. I suppose fair head bloke. And it turned 194 00:11:04,552 --> 00:11:09,792 Speaker 3: out Shane a strip club in Hobart called Men's Gallery, 195 00:11:10,712 --> 00:11:13,712 Speaker 3: and Chopper wanted to take me to Men's Gallery, and 196 00:11:13,752 --> 00:11:17,552 Speaker 3: there was some it wasn't clear whether Chopper had a 197 00:11:17,552 --> 00:11:22,391 Speaker 3: financial interest or not in Men's Gallery, but the sort 198 00:11:22,432 --> 00:11:24,832 Speaker 3: of influence was that he did. But the influence was 199 00:11:24,872 --> 00:11:27,992 Speaker 3: also that he'd put gas through the air conditioning at 200 00:11:27,992 --> 00:11:31,112 Speaker 3: some stage, which isn't necessarily the best way to promote 201 00:11:31,152 --> 00:11:36,392 Speaker 3: your own business. Anyway, Chopper took me beneath Men's Gallery, 202 00:11:36,432 --> 00:11:39,912 Speaker 3: the strip club. There was like a family steakhouse, so 203 00:11:40,632 --> 00:11:43,512 Speaker 3: at first me and Chopper had steak and be as 204 00:11:43,512 --> 00:11:46,832 Speaker 3: at a family steakhouse. Shoper was drinking quite a lot 205 00:11:46,912 --> 00:11:52,392 Speaker 3: then bb VB VB, and I was too when people 206 00:11:52,472 --> 00:11:54,632 Speaker 3: kept coming up to him. I had this steakhouse, you know, 207 00:11:54,712 --> 00:11:58,072 Speaker 3: ordinary Hobart folk who were there with their families. So 208 00:11:58,512 --> 00:12:00,992 Speaker 3: new Chopper reader, they want their picture with him. It 209 00:12:01,072 --> 00:12:04,832 Speaker 3: was days before camera phones, and they wanted to They 210 00:12:04,872 --> 00:12:07,272 Speaker 3: wanted it to autography. They wanted that won of them 211 00:12:07,272 --> 00:12:09,391 Speaker 3: wanted him to come home and meet his wife, and 212 00:12:09,552 --> 00:12:12,271 Speaker 3: Chopper agreed to it. Like he's saying, it would be 213 00:12:12,392 --> 00:12:16,552 Speaker 3: like a really good natured celebrity with like the top 214 00:12:16,592 --> 00:12:18,992 Speaker 3: half of his ears and miss, I mean, perhaps there's 215 00:12:19,032 --> 00:12:21,952 Speaker 3: something I should say as well. He got often talked 216 00:12:21,952 --> 00:12:24,552 Speaker 3: about having no ears. He didn't really have no ears. 217 00:12:24,552 --> 00:12:28,032 Speaker 3: He had kind of rudimentary ears, Like he did have 218 00:12:28,192 --> 00:12:30,952 Speaker 3: parts of ears, just not the parts that perhaps you 219 00:12:30,992 --> 00:12:34,992 Speaker 3: would want to put classes on, for instance. So Chopper 220 00:12:35,032 --> 00:12:38,832 Speaker 3: played the you know, good natured local celebrity. He played 221 00:12:38,832 --> 00:12:43,472 Speaker 3: it well, and then we went upstairs to the strip show. 222 00:12:44,512 --> 00:12:47,312 Speaker 3: It was lap dancing or scrip shows were called lap 223 00:12:47,392 --> 00:12:51,672 Speaker 3: dancing for that brief period. And the lap dancers were 224 00:12:52,592 --> 00:12:56,352 Speaker 3: were a trio and they were Shane's wife and Shane's 225 00:12:56,352 --> 00:12:58,872 Speaker 3: wife two sisters. So it's kind of like a sort 226 00:12:58,872 --> 00:13:05,192 Speaker 3: of Tasmanian family business. Yeah, and the sisters did what 227 00:13:05,392 --> 00:13:10,271 Speaker 3: lap dancers do a little bit around Chopper himself, and 228 00:13:10,312 --> 00:13:14,432 Speaker 3: then we I don't remember much about that part of 229 00:13:14,472 --> 00:13:17,912 Speaker 3: the evening, and then we went into the dressing room, 230 00:13:18,472 --> 00:13:23,592 Speaker 3: chatted a bit more. I think they started rolling joints, 231 00:13:25,112 --> 00:13:30,152 Speaker 3: and me and Chopper left. We've got a taxis. Home 232 00:13:30,192 --> 00:13:33,392 Speaker 3: are separate ways. Chopper was living in rural Tasmania and 233 00:13:33,672 --> 00:13:37,032 Speaker 3: I was staying in a pub in hober And yeah, 234 00:13:37,072 --> 00:13:39,352 Speaker 3: that was the sum of our first encounter. 235 00:13:40,232 --> 00:13:42,432 Speaker 1: You had been warned that Chopper was quite a different 236 00:13:42,432 --> 00:13:44,672 Speaker 1: person sober than he was after a few beers. 237 00:13:44,712 --> 00:13:46,992 Speaker 2: Did you witness that change over that day? 238 00:13:47,152 --> 00:13:54,912 Speaker 3: He certainly became He got sadder. He started complaining about 239 00:13:54,952 --> 00:13:57,192 Speaker 3: the modern age and how he didn't fee into it. 240 00:13:57,752 --> 00:13:59,912 Speaker 3: And you know, he'd been in jail his whole life, 241 00:13:59,992 --> 00:14:03,112 Speaker 3: but when he got into jail he didn't he didn't 242 00:14:03,152 --> 00:14:07,832 Speaker 3: really appreciate the hands off nature of lap dancing. He 243 00:14:08,632 --> 00:14:11,792 Speaker 3: longed more for sort of the golden age of lunging 244 00:14:11,832 --> 00:14:14,992 Speaker 3: at strippers. I think, so he'd gone about that kind 245 00:14:15,072 --> 00:14:18,032 Speaker 3: of thing, and it's a bit, yeah, it's a little 246 00:14:18,032 --> 00:14:21,952 Speaker 3: bit uncomfortable and then he and he starts going on 247 00:14:22,072 --> 00:14:26,672 Speaker 3: at me and he goes, yeah, never smile, and like, 248 00:14:26,712 --> 00:14:29,432 Speaker 3: I don't really I'm smiling now, but I'm making an effort. 249 00:14:29,592 --> 00:14:31,032 Speaker 2: Will you talk about this in your book, don't you? 250 00:14:31,032 --> 00:14:33,592 Speaker 1: Because he said, as you drink, if you don't find 251 00:14:33,592 --> 00:14:35,032 Speaker 1: something funny, you're not going to laugh at it. 252 00:14:35,192 --> 00:14:36,952 Speaker 2: Yeah, and he must have insensed him a. 253 00:14:36,952 --> 00:14:38,712 Speaker 1: Little bit that you didn't find him as hilarious as 254 00:14:38,712 --> 00:14:39,872 Speaker 1: he obviously found himself. 255 00:14:40,152 --> 00:14:43,912 Speaker 3: Well, he The thing is, he was funny, but he wasn't, 256 00:14:44,392 --> 00:14:47,072 Speaker 3: not necessarily when he thought he was being funny, Like, 257 00:14:47,152 --> 00:14:49,872 Speaker 3: he was clever, and he was sharp, and he was incisive, 258 00:14:50,472 --> 00:14:55,872 Speaker 3: and his non rehearsed repartee was really quite impressive. But 259 00:14:55,952 --> 00:14:59,392 Speaker 3: I'm not you know, it's not funny talking about brutally 260 00:14:59,512 --> 00:15:02,592 Speaker 3: murdering people. Whether you actually did it or you didn't, 261 00:15:03,032 --> 00:15:06,232 Speaker 3: it's still not funny. It's not funny picking some guy 262 00:15:06,712 --> 00:15:09,552 Speaker 3: talking about sticking some guy in a cement mixer. And 263 00:15:09,672 --> 00:15:12,872 Speaker 3: I'm not going to pretend it is. So I would 264 00:15:13,232 --> 00:15:15,192 Speaker 3: I would listen to these stories and just sort of 265 00:15:15,192 --> 00:15:20,272 Speaker 3: stare like this, and he's getting gradually more annoyed with me. Yeah, 266 00:15:20,832 --> 00:15:24,432 Speaker 3: that's my smile, what's wrong with you? And I'm just 267 00:15:24,472 --> 00:15:27,312 Speaker 3: going right, well, I'm definitely not gonna smile now, m m. 268 00:15:28,152 --> 00:15:32,112 Speaker 3: But you did flare up into anything, and you know, 269 00:15:32,192 --> 00:15:34,832 Speaker 3: you get you drink, you drink all day, and you 270 00:15:34,952 --> 00:15:37,472 Speaker 3: reach a stage where you're aggressive, and then you reach 271 00:15:37,472 --> 00:15:39,832 Speaker 3: a stage where you're passive again if nothing happens, and 272 00:15:39,912 --> 00:15:42,672 Speaker 3: just kind of slump a bit. And then as I say, 273 00:15:42,672 --> 00:15:47,192 Speaker 3: we went upstairs to the dressing room or undressing room 274 00:15:47,272 --> 00:15:48,112 Speaker 3: or whatever you'd call it. 275 00:15:50,192 --> 00:15:52,352 Speaker 1: I think what a lot of ouss is don't get 276 00:15:52,392 --> 00:15:56,992 Speaker 1: a grasp on is what made Chop a read Because 277 00:15:57,032 --> 00:15:59,472 Speaker 1: we know Chop of readers this big personality in this 278 00:15:59,592 --> 00:16:02,232 Speaker 1: character who kind of came in built with this criminal career. 279 00:16:02,272 --> 00:16:05,992 Speaker 1: But something had to have created that character in your 280 00:16:06,032 --> 00:16:08,112 Speaker 1: time researching and understanding him. 281 00:16:08,672 --> 00:16:12,032 Speaker 2: What do you think created a character like Mark Chopper read? 282 00:16:13,512 --> 00:16:17,272 Speaker 3: All criminals have the same story. They're all abused children. 283 00:16:17,632 --> 00:16:23,312 Speaker 3: I know violent criminals, and I know that sounds pat 284 00:16:23,392 --> 00:16:28,392 Speaker 3: but it's true. I've yet to find a violent, twisted 285 00:16:28,472 --> 00:16:32,512 Speaker 3: man who did not have twisted violence performed upon him 286 00:16:32,672 --> 00:16:37,472 Speaker 3: as a child. Chopper. I think Chopper's father was violent. 287 00:16:37,792 --> 00:16:40,912 Speaker 3: I think although Chopper blank blamed his mom for whatever 288 00:16:41,032 --> 00:16:44,192 Speaker 3: reason there was. They were all the family was seventh 289 00:16:44,272 --> 00:16:49,472 Speaker 3: DA Adventist and his mum was very religious. At the 290 00:16:49,592 --> 00:16:52,912 Speaker 3: time I met him, I think he was about to 291 00:16:52,952 --> 00:16:56,232 Speaker 3: reconcile with his mom, if I remember rightly. Chopper's mom 292 00:16:56,272 --> 00:17:00,112 Speaker 3: had committed him to various institutions. I think he had. 293 00:17:01,072 --> 00:17:03,712 Speaker 3: He says he had electric shock therapy. 294 00:17:04,152 --> 00:17:05,831 Speaker 2: In your book, you mentioned that she was very concerned 295 00:17:05,871 --> 00:17:07,071 Speaker 2: about his mental health as a kid. 296 00:17:07,192 --> 00:17:09,792 Speaker 3: Yeah, I means she thought he was maybe had ADHD. 297 00:17:10,792 --> 00:17:13,272 Speaker 3: I think that's probably the case with a lot of 298 00:17:13,311 --> 00:17:16,792 Speaker 3: these kids back then who ended up in Juvie. Now 299 00:17:16,831 --> 00:17:20,311 Speaker 3: they'd be ADHD and they've been medicated. Back then, I 300 00:17:20,311 --> 00:17:25,712 Speaker 3: think they thought they were perhaps pathologically injecting criminals. So, yeah, 301 00:17:25,871 --> 00:17:29,912 Speaker 3: his his mum worried about him. She had him committed 302 00:17:29,911 --> 00:17:33,831 Speaker 3: to institutions, came out, he started committing crimes. He ends 303 00:17:33,911 --> 00:17:37,871 Speaker 3: up in juv juv back in the day was a 304 00:17:37,952 --> 00:17:42,232 Speaker 3: terrible place to grow up. I would question whether men 305 00:17:42,712 --> 00:17:45,792 Speaker 3: grow up anyway outside of the company of women. They 306 00:17:45,911 --> 00:17:50,431 Speaker 3: just constantly reproduce the politics of the playground. And in 307 00:17:50,472 --> 00:17:53,592 Speaker 3: the playground, you know, the biggest, the toughest, the hardest 308 00:17:53,631 --> 00:17:57,151 Speaker 3: guy runs it and wins. And I think people who 309 00:17:57,272 --> 00:18:03,112 Speaker 3: go to juvi rather than transition to adding the outside 310 00:18:03,151 --> 00:18:05,631 Speaker 3: world where there's women as well, end up with that 311 00:18:05,752 --> 00:18:10,272 Speaker 3: mentality their whole lives. So I mean a combination of 312 00:18:11,032 --> 00:18:15,272 Speaker 3: I guess domestic and institutional abuse is probably what made 313 00:18:15,311 --> 00:18:19,232 Speaker 3: Chopper Chopper. Wouldn't say that Chopper? Would you say that? 314 00:18:20,032 --> 00:18:23,071 Speaker 3: He was the way he was? And you know often 315 00:18:23,151 --> 00:18:24,472 Speaker 3: he appeared proud of it. 316 00:18:25,272 --> 00:18:26,951 Speaker 1: This is something you're so touched on in the book, 317 00:18:27,071 --> 00:18:30,391 Speaker 1: and you do speak about other known criminals, not just 318 00:18:30,472 --> 00:18:32,831 Speaker 1: Chopper read in the book, but they seem to often 319 00:18:32,871 --> 00:18:35,471 Speaker 1: have that common story where they do some misdemeanors as 320 00:18:35,472 --> 00:18:37,872 Speaker 1: a kid, they end up in juvie and that's when 321 00:18:37,871 --> 00:18:39,831 Speaker 1: they start to learn how to become a real criminal. 322 00:18:39,831 --> 00:18:42,351 Speaker 1: And then they graduate to like big boy jail and 323 00:18:42,391 --> 00:18:45,232 Speaker 1: they meet even harder criminals and that teaches them even 324 00:18:45,311 --> 00:18:47,511 Speaker 1: more illegal ways to live, and then they kind of 325 00:18:47,552 --> 00:18:50,272 Speaker 1: graduate at the end if they're ever let free to 326 00:18:50,351 --> 00:18:52,712 Speaker 1: sort of take that out on society. Do you find 327 00:18:52,712 --> 00:18:54,751 Speaker 1: that's a pretty similar story for a lot of the 328 00:18:54,992 --> 00:18:57,351 Speaker 1: well known criminals we know here in Australia take. 329 00:18:57,232 --> 00:19:02,431 Speaker 3: It out women perhaps, yes, yeah, as that is the 330 00:19:02,472 --> 00:19:07,552 Speaker 3: way that their lives run. I mean, there's some there 331 00:19:07,591 --> 00:19:11,511 Speaker 3: are some very serious points to be made about giving 332 00:19:11,752 --> 00:19:16,151 Speaker 3: children a peer group made up entirely of a party 333 00:19:16,232 --> 00:19:21,672 Speaker 3: of older children who are institutionalized, sometimes for criminal offenses. 334 00:19:21,871 --> 00:19:24,392 Speaker 3: You can't remember. Back in the day, though, you could 335 00:19:24,391 --> 00:19:28,512 Speaker 3: be institutionalized for almost anything. You know, institutionalized were playing 336 00:19:28,552 --> 00:19:31,912 Speaker 3: true you could end up in juvie because you were uncontrollable. 337 00:19:32,232 --> 00:19:35,952 Speaker 3: What uncontrollable meant was your parents couldn't control you. There 338 00:19:35,952 --> 00:19:38,152 Speaker 3: could be any number of reasons why the state thought 339 00:19:38,192 --> 00:19:40,952 Speaker 3: they couldn't control you, including the fact that your mother 340 00:19:41,032 --> 00:19:43,952 Speaker 3: was a one parent family, or your from an alcoholic 341 00:19:44,272 --> 00:19:47,591 Speaker 3: So you could end up essentially in juvie because your 342 00:19:47,631 --> 00:19:51,152 Speaker 3: parents had splat up, because your dad has shot through said, 343 00:19:51,192 --> 00:19:57,272 Speaker 3: there's these kids who are terrified with no protector, in 344 00:19:57,311 --> 00:20:00,351 Speaker 3: an atmosphere where the older kids who've been preyed on 345 00:20:00,431 --> 00:20:05,512 Speaker 3: themselves pray are the predators. You know, it's a horrific 346 00:20:05,552 --> 00:20:07,952 Speaker 3: way to grow up, and it should have been quite 347 00:20:07,952 --> 00:20:11,631 Speaker 3: pervious to people back in the day, even and you know, 348 00:20:11,911 --> 00:20:15,711 Speaker 3: you can't criticize historical figures for living in a different 349 00:20:15,752 --> 00:20:16,432 Speaker 3: time period. 350 00:20:19,311 --> 00:20:22,351 Speaker 1: You're listening to true crime conversations with me Claire Murphy. 351 00:20:22,472 --> 00:20:25,192 Speaker 1: I'm speaking with Mark Dappan about one of Australia's most 352 00:20:25,192 --> 00:20:29,432 Speaker 1: infamous criminals, Chopper read Up. Next, Mark tells us about 353 00:20:29,472 --> 00:20:33,712 Speaker 1: Chopper's time in Petridge Prison, where extreme isolation and brutal 354 00:20:33,752 --> 00:20:40,792 Speaker 1: conditions pushed him to the edge. Who were the characters 355 00:20:40,831 --> 00:20:44,191 Speaker 1: that would shape Chopper read in prison? Who did he 356 00:20:44,232 --> 00:20:46,432 Speaker 1: associate with? What influence would they have had on him? 357 00:20:46,831 --> 00:20:50,192 Speaker 3: Perhaps the hardest man or people talk about the hardest 358 00:20:50,232 --> 00:20:55,071 Speaker 3: man in the Victorian prison system back then, a guy 359 00:20:55,151 --> 00:20:58,992 Speaker 3: called Frankie Wacorn. I'm not sure Frankie Wacorn was particularly 360 00:20:59,032 --> 00:21:04,231 Speaker 3: bright guy, but he was respected as a fighter. Chopper 361 00:21:04,272 --> 00:21:07,351 Speaker 3: talks about Frankie Wacon in his books. Do the books 362 00:21:07,631 --> 00:21:10,231 Speaker 3: have a lot of means of a guy called, you know, 363 00:21:10,671 --> 00:21:14,751 Speaker 3: mad Charlie, Hey Gali, let's how you pronounce it. I 364 00:21:14,792 --> 00:21:20,711 Speaker 3: think maybe Chopper Frankie met Charlie whatever sort over some 365 00:21:20,792 --> 00:21:24,831 Speaker 3: of the younger blokes in Pentridge. That's what people say. 366 00:21:25,792 --> 00:21:28,792 Speaker 3: And you know, Job was Choppers in Chail a long time. 367 00:21:29,111 --> 00:21:32,431 Speaker 3: You end up meeting maybe everybody, you end up hanging 368 00:21:32,472 --> 00:21:36,591 Speaker 3: out with whoever's around, particularly when you may be in 369 00:21:36,792 --> 00:21:42,032 Speaker 3: h division one day or Jaiko one day. Chopper. I 370 00:21:42,192 --> 00:21:48,991 Speaker 3: suspect Chopper craved some kind of intellectual company, not necessarily 371 00:21:48,992 --> 00:21:53,471 Speaker 3: done academically intellectual, but but the bride and more articulate people, 372 00:21:53,512 --> 00:21:57,512 Speaker 3: because he certainly wasn't stupid, and a lot of crims are. 373 00:21:58,472 --> 00:22:02,311 Speaker 3: He made friends with Greg Smith, Greg Roberts, the guy 374 00:22:02,351 --> 00:22:08,071 Speaker 3: who wrote Chantan. He was fully allied or for some 375 00:22:08,151 --> 00:22:12,151 Speaker 3: time allied with Ted Eastwood, who twice kidnapped coach Ledge 376 00:22:12,192 --> 00:22:16,911 Speaker 3: of children. He fought a war the Overcoat wawide in 377 00:22:16,952 --> 00:22:23,712 Speaker 3: age divisions, so cold war prison bust up with painters 378 00:22:23,712 --> 00:22:28,431 Speaker 3: and dockers, and on his side were a number of 379 00:22:28,911 --> 00:22:33,071 Speaker 3: non painters and dockers, violent criminals in age division. So yeah, 380 00:22:33,071 --> 00:22:36,232 Speaker 3: over the years a lot years, a lot of people 381 00:22:36,311 --> 00:22:39,311 Speaker 3: bumped into Chopper, and perhaps more people say they bumped 382 00:22:39,351 --> 00:22:42,631 Speaker 3: into Chopper than ever did. But some people, yeah, have 383 00:22:42,792 --> 00:22:46,391 Speaker 3: quite nice memories of him, Like I spoke to the 384 00:22:46,431 --> 00:22:50,431 Speaker 3: two guys recently, a guy called Bocam Brown who was 385 00:22:50,671 --> 00:22:54,831 Speaker 3: young when he went into Penridge, and he said Chopper 386 00:22:54,871 --> 00:22:59,591 Speaker 3: helped him out with relationship advice. And which is a 387 00:22:59,631 --> 00:23:02,712 Speaker 3: column I would have like to see in Cosmo back 388 00:23:02,752 --> 00:23:03,192 Speaker 3: in the day. 389 00:23:03,871 --> 00:23:07,552 Speaker 1: Yeah, There's also times he said that he because he 390 00:23:07,671 --> 00:23:10,151 Speaker 1: was kind of well connected, would sometimes reach out to 391 00:23:10,272 --> 00:23:12,671 Speaker 1: other inmates families to let them know they were okay 392 00:23:12,712 --> 00:23:13,992 Speaker 1: and he was taken care of them. 393 00:23:15,311 --> 00:23:19,351 Speaker 3: It has been set in one case perhaps would in 394 00:23:19,391 --> 00:23:23,552 Speaker 3: one case, whether or not though that at the same 395 00:23:23,552 --> 00:23:26,911 Speaker 3: time Chopper was planning on killing that guy's father, I 396 00:23:26,952 --> 00:23:29,752 Speaker 3: wouldn't necessarily want to make a comment. 397 00:23:29,992 --> 00:23:31,831 Speaker 2: He might have had ulterior motives for that. 398 00:23:32,311 --> 00:23:36,911 Speaker 3: Maybe I haven't discussed this with the question, but certainly 399 00:23:37,151 --> 00:23:40,071 Speaker 3: I have read it since fair. 400 00:23:39,911 --> 00:23:42,911 Speaker 1: Enough, so, you mentioned that Chopper is in Age Division 401 00:23:42,911 --> 00:23:46,232 Speaker 1: at one stage in his incarceration, and the potentially that's 402 00:23:46,272 --> 00:23:50,032 Speaker 1: not because of the the nature of the crimes that 403 00:23:50,111 --> 00:23:52,032 Speaker 1: led in him in prison, but more for his own 404 00:23:52,071 --> 00:23:53,272 Speaker 1: safety at the end of the day. 405 00:23:53,472 --> 00:23:57,871 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you could be put in Age Division 406 00:23:58,591 --> 00:24:02,951 Speaker 3: for serious infractions of the rules in Pentridge, if you 407 00:24:03,032 --> 00:24:07,151 Speaker 3: tried to escape, for instance, you were put in pretty 408 00:24:07,192 --> 00:24:12,151 Speaker 3: much automatically. But H Division had this reputation as a 409 00:24:12,192 --> 00:24:15,671 Speaker 3: tough division for professional criminals and people who would not 410 00:24:15,792 --> 00:24:18,191 Speaker 3: bow down, you know, people who are try and escape 411 00:24:18,192 --> 00:24:22,232 Speaker 3: OAT or were respected back in the day. It has 412 00:24:22,311 --> 00:24:24,751 Speaker 3: been said that Choppel was in H Division for his 413 00:24:24,831 --> 00:24:28,952 Speaker 3: own protection. There were also prisoners in H division who 414 00:24:28,992 --> 00:24:31,992 Speaker 3: had to be protected from the general population who were 415 00:24:31,992 --> 00:24:37,351 Speaker 3: actually safer among the escapes and professional criminals in that division. 416 00:24:38,911 --> 00:24:41,911 Speaker 1: And also true that he worked, I mean there's a 417 00:24:42,232 --> 00:24:44,391 Speaker 1: word of him being a police informant at one stage, 418 00:24:44,391 --> 00:24:47,311 Speaker 1: but that he worked alongside prison authorities to help kind 419 00:24:47,311 --> 00:24:48,671 Speaker 1: of police the inmates. 420 00:24:48,992 --> 00:24:51,232 Speaker 3: Chapel was an enforcer for the screws. There's no doubt 421 00:24:51,272 --> 00:24:56,071 Speaker 3: about it. There's no attic. And in his own books, 422 00:24:56,151 --> 00:25:01,552 Speaker 3: you know, he alludes to his allyship with the security 423 00:25:01,591 --> 00:25:07,831 Speaker 3: governor of Penrich. What happened was way back there was 424 00:25:08,151 --> 00:25:14,111 Speaker 3: a more intensified form of batching to keep inmates in line, 425 00:25:14,391 --> 00:25:17,071 Speaker 3: you know, an H division. You go there, you'd be 426 00:25:17,151 --> 00:25:21,792 Speaker 3: stripped and you face the reception biff as it was affectionately. 427 00:25:21,911 --> 00:25:24,352 Speaker 1: No you get so this is just on your arrival, 428 00:25:24,391 --> 00:25:28,232 Speaker 1: you're automatically stripped and beaten by. 429 00:25:27,391 --> 00:25:30,111 Speaker 3: To go down into the punishment. When so, I say 430 00:25:30,151 --> 00:25:32,951 Speaker 3: automatically automatic, you wouldn't. That would not hap to you 431 00:25:32,992 --> 00:25:35,511 Speaker 3: if you were there on protection from other inmates, but 432 00:25:36,232 --> 00:25:38,192 Speaker 3: done something against the. 433 00:25:39,552 --> 00:25:40,552 Speaker 2: Like try to escape, for. 434 00:25:41,311 --> 00:25:44,872 Speaker 3: Which you very much found a part in the prison system. 435 00:25:45,311 --> 00:25:47,311 Speaker 3: We do something like that. They strip you and they'd 436 00:25:47,351 --> 00:25:49,792 Speaker 3: beat you, and they would pretty much keep on beating 437 00:25:49,792 --> 00:25:52,871 Speaker 3: you when they go when they had the chance, until 438 00:25:52,911 --> 00:25:56,431 Speaker 3: such time as you folded. There there were riots, the 439 00:25:56,591 --> 00:26:01,671 Speaker 3: so called rebellions against this kind of treatment, involving people 440 00:26:01,752 --> 00:26:05,311 Speaker 3: like my friend John Killick and other people like Christopher 441 00:26:05,351 --> 00:26:10,111 Speaker 3: Dale Flannery. They said no more, and to a degree 442 00:26:10,192 --> 00:26:14,032 Speaker 3: they they got no more. The beidings that the worst 443 00:26:14,071 --> 00:26:17,792 Speaker 3: of the prison officers used to inflict upon the prisoners 444 00:26:17,792 --> 00:26:21,231 Speaker 3: in the nineteen sixties, by the seventies and early eighties 445 00:26:21,431 --> 00:26:24,591 Speaker 3: were being inflicted on the prisoners by prison officers proxies 446 00:26:25,032 --> 00:26:25,672 Speaker 3: like Joppary. 447 00:26:27,232 --> 00:26:30,591 Speaker 2: Do you think he was a violent man by nature? 448 00:26:30,631 --> 00:26:31,831 Speaker 2: Like was that who he was? 449 00:26:31,911 --> 00:26:33,631 Speaker 1: Or do you think it was just that that was 450 00:26:33,712 --> 00:26:36,472 Speaker 1: the circumstances into which he found himself in a way, 451 00:26:37,552 --> 00:26:39,671 Speaker 1: you know, to make a name for himself, or to 452 00:26:39,712 --> 00:26:41,311 Speaker 1: be seen and to be heard and protected. 453 00:26:42,992 --> 00:26:46,431 Speaker 3: I don't think you can make a judgment on what 454 00:26:46,671 --> 00:26:50,911 Speaker 3: somebody is in essence without taking into account what they 455 00:26:50,992 --> 00:26:54,511 Speaker 3: went through. You know, perhaps if he'd been brought up 456 00:26:54,552 --> 00:26:57,871 Speaker 3: in a monastery, he'd have been a monk. It'd have 457 00:26:57,911 --> 00:27:03,272 Speaker 3: been very big, big guy, monkey enough to fear, but yeah, 458 00:27:03,311 --> 00:27:05,752 Speaker 3: it's not like all big people turned out the monsters. 459 00:27:06,351 --> 00:27:08,192 Speaker 1: Can you tell me a bit about and you've kind 460 00:27:08,192 --> 00:27:11,111 Speaker 1: of mentioned this Jiker, which is the section of the 461 00:27:11,232 --> 00:27:15,311 Speaker 1: prison that Chopper was moved to after age division, and 462 00:27:15,351 --> 00:27:18,432 Speaker 1: it has copped a lot of scrutiny over the years 463 00:27:18,512 --> 00:27:22,151 Speaker 1: due to its kind of solitary confinement levels. Can you 464 00:27:22,192 --> 00:27:23,871 Speaker 1: tell us a little bit more about what it was 465 00:27:23,952 --> 00:27:26,791 Speaker 1: like for chopping in that area of the prison in Jiker. 466 00:27:27,431 --> 00:27:31,591 Speaker 3: I think a lot of people there was a sort 467 00:27:31,631 --> 00:27:38,832 Speaker 3: of craze I suppose for isolating what were considered dangerous 468 00:27:39,071 --> 00:27:47,591 Speaker 3: or perhaps even mentally ill inmates in a system, in 469 00:27:47,631 --> 00:27:51,311 Speaker 3: a confinement I could almost be described a sensory deprivation. 470 00:27:51,631 --> 00:27:55,071 Speaker 3: But it wasn't intended that way. But that's the way 471 00:27:55,192 --> 00:27:58,911 Speaker 3: the prisoners felt. Not only would I isolate from the 472 00:27:58,992 --> 00:28:04,191 Speaker 3: mainstream population, they're trying to keep to a minimum contact 473 00:28:04,192 --> 00:28:10,951 Speaker 3: with other people through anybody in the jail. Your meals 474 00:28:10,952 --> 00:28:16,232 Speaker 3: are pushed through hatches like on TV. Prisoners actually appreciate 475 00:28:16,631 --> 00:28:19,951 Speaker 3: getting together in the yard and chat. I say, it's 476 00:28:19,992 --> 00:28:22,271 Speaker 3: the only thing they do. They do pull ups, they 477 00:28:22,272 --> 00:28:25,071 Speaker 3: do press ups, they take drugs. They're not supposed to 478 00:28:25,111 --> 00:28:26,632 Speaker 3: have and they talk and they talk and they talk 479 00:28:26,671 --> 00:28:31,391 Speaker 3: and they talk. You know, you need a kind of 480 00:28:31,472 --> 00:28:34,951 Speaker 3: rotation cuts of audience to talk to. And if you 481 00:28:35,032 --> 00:28:39,912 Speaker 3: haven't got that, as they were deprived of in Jiker, 482 00:28:40,431 --> 00:28:42,471 Speaker 3: I think they just got more and more and more 483 00:28:43,152 --> 00:28:47,032 Speaker 3: depressed and you know, get to see the outside world 484 00:28:47,671 --> 00:28:49,711 Speaker 3: in the way that is a tiny way that you 485 00:28:49,792 --> 00:28:54,712 Speaker 3: do in jail. Generally. I think Choppers really tried hard 486 00:28:54,712 --> 00:28:59,152 Speaker 3: to get out of Jiker, as did pretty much everybody 487 00:28:59,152 --> 00:28:59,991 Speaker 3: that was in Jiker. 488 00:29:02,152 --> 00:29:05,192 Speaker 2: Is it true? And I mean I could probably ask 489 00:29:05,192 --> 00:29:06,192 Speaker 2: you is it true? Is it not true? 490 00:29:06,512 --> 00:29:08,991 Speaker 1: A billion stories about Chopper, But when he was in Jacker, 491 00:29:09,032 --> 00:29:13,152 Speaker 1: there's a story about him attacking another inmate and then 492 00:29:13,232 --> 00:29:15,872 Speaker 1: writing an apology to him on his cell door in 493 00:29:15,911 --> 00:29:16,872 Speaker 1: his own blood. 494 00:29:17,192 --> 00:29:17,911 Speaker 2: Is that true? 495 00:29:18,072 --> 00:29:23,232 Speaker 3: Yeah? Wow, I was really surprised the attacked A guy 496 00:29:23,431 --> 00:29:26,511 Speaker 3: called and I might say this is wrong, that the 497 00:29:26,632 --> 00:29:32,392 Speaker 3: name wrong Alex tes Marcus, and he afterwards wrote in 498 00:29:32,512 --> 00:29:37,032 Speaker 3: Alex's blood on his cell door, sorry Alex. A prison 499 00:29:37,072 --> 00:29:41,551 Speaker 3: officer confirmed that to me, everybody believes it's try. I 500 00:29:41,592 --> 00:29:44,431 Speaker 3: also believe he's true. I mean, he did have a 501 00:29:44,712 --> 00:29:48,872 Speaker 3: macabre sense of humor, and you know, Alex, for what 502 00:29:49,032 --> 00:29:51,872 Speaker 3: it's worth, was a serial killer. He really had killed 503 00:29:52,592 --> 00:29:56,632 Speaker 3: for more people than chop up. Alex was in the 504 00:29:56,712 --> 00:30:00,592 Speaker 3: end killed by another massacre. That's the kind of people 505 00:30:00,632 --> 00:30:02,992 Speaker 3: you meet in Bendridge back. Yeah. 506 00:30:03,192 --> 00:30:08,352 Speaker 1: Right, you've spoken to prison officers who were working when 507 00:30:08,392 --> 00:30:09,711 Speaker 1: Chopper was incarcerated. 508 00:30:09,832 --> 00:30:11,272 Speaker 2: What was their opinion of him? 509 00:30:11,352 --> 00:30:13,872 Speaker 1: Because I mean, he essentially worked for them at times, 510 00:30:13,911 --> 00:30:16,192 Speaker 1: but then you know he would have been a pain 511 00:30:16,232 --> 00:30:17,192 Speaker 1: in their blood at times too. 512 00:30:17,232 --> 00:30:18,792 Speaker 2: I imagine I didn't. 513 00:30:20,552 --> 00:30:24,671 Speaker 3: Chopper changed a lot. Chopper changed his opinions like he 514 00:30:25,112 --> 00:30:28,711 Speaker 3: grew up in jail, like he didn't. He didn't stay 515 00:30:28,752 --> 00:30:32,592 Speaker 3: the same person throughout. Well, I don't think he's necessarily 516 00:30:33,552 --> 00:30:37,352 Speaker 3: sickly rational. It often seemed to like a lot of criminals, 517 00:30:37,352 --> 00:30:39,232 Speaker 3: he just did the first thing that came into his head. 518 00:30:39,552 --> 00:30:43,671 Speaker 3: It's very difficult to dissect choppers motivations any given moment. 519 00:30:44,152 --> 00:30:46,751 Speaker 3: And so some of the prison officers liked him, some 520 00:30:46,792 --> 00:30:49,392 Speaker 3: of the prison officers hated him. Some of the prison 521 00:30:49,392 --> 00:30:52,392 Speaker 3: officers used him, some of them avoided them. But there 522 00:30:52,472 --> 00:30:57,031 Speaker 3: was some some real affection for him, and not just 523 00:30:57,112 --> 00:31:01,751 Speaker 3: as a comrade, but as an inmate. Yeah, comrade in 524 00:31:01,872 --> 00:31:05,632 Speaker 3: arms against some other prisoners, but as an inmate who 525 00:31:06,392 --> 00:31:08,312 Speaker 3: had a sense of humor that they could yarn to, 526 00:31:08,392 --> 00:31:12,432 Speaker 3: because again, prison officers want to talk as well. It's boring. 527 00:31:12,552 --> 00:31:16,032 Speaker 3: It is so boring being in jail and someone like 528 00:31:16,112 --> 00:31:19,832 Speaker 3: Chopper and actually rutting things up for some people, whereas 529 00:31:20,952 --> 00:31:23,912 Speaker 3: at the same time as darping in the lives of others. 530 00:31:24,552 --> 00:31:27,191 Speaker 1: Well, I've heard stories and you mentioned this in your 531 00:31:27,232 --> 00:31:31,112 Speaker 1: book two about Chopper's creative use of bodily fluids whilst 532 00:31:31,112 --> 00:31:32,152 Speaker 1: being in jail too. 533 00:31:32,952 --> 00:31:38,471 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean you probably wouldn't want him cooking 534 00:31:38,512 --> 00:31:43,271 Speaker 3: your dinner, believe if it's always pretty funny to contaminate 535 00:31:43,312 --> 00:31:47,152 Speaker 3: the food. But again, why what's the point Like some 536 00:31:47,192 --> 00:31:52,632 Speaker 3: people entertainment? Yeah, and like I'm a prison people who 537 00:31:52,671 --> 00:31:57,392 Speaker 3: were professional criminals because they wanted money for nothing. Couldn't 538 00:31:57,392 --> 00:32:01,832 Speaker 3: really understand the motivations of as somebody who's cantaminate their food, 539 00:32:02,431 --> 00:32:04,352 Speaker 3: not even because they were their enemies, but just for 540 00:32:04,392 --> 00:32:07,231 Speaker 3: no reason at all, because as you say, for his 541 00:32:07,312 --> 00:32:11,592 Speaker 3: own entertainment. Yeah, he didn't come out and open a 542 00:32:11,632 --> 00:32:14,872 Speaker 3: restaurant or anything. I only would have had many clients. 543 00:32:16,792 --> 00:32:20,472 Speaker 1: I think what's really funny is I mean, there's a story. 544 00:32:20,512 --> 00:32:22,632 Speaker 1: You're telling your book about the fact that when he 545 00:32:22,712 --> 00:32:24,952 Speaker 1: started releasing books, they would become some of the most 546 00:32:24,992 --> 00:32:28,911 Speaker 1: stolen items from bookstores. But what do you think it 547 00:32:29,112 --> 00:32:33,072 Speaker 1: was about Chopper's retelling of his tales? And we have 548 00:32:33,192 --> 00:32:34,992 Speaker 1: established that he has taken credit for a lot of 549 00:32:35,032 --> 00:32:37,792 Speaker 1: crimes that he didn't actually commit, including a lot of murders. 550 00:32:38,552 --> 00:32:41,152 Speaker 2: What about that appeal to the average Aussie? Because it 551 00:32:41,192 --> 00:32:43,911 Speaker 2: wasn't just criminals who were consuming those stories. 552 00:32:43,712 --> 00:32:46,792 Speaker 3: No at all. No, And I suspect it's far far 553 00:32:46,872 --> 00:32:50,232 Speaker 3: more women than people created as well. They were books 554 00:32:50,512 --> 00:32:52,712 Speaker 3: sort of aimed at men. They were books that looked 555 00:32:52,792 --> 00:32:55,912 Speaker 3: like they should be sort of sold in surveys rather 556 00:32:55,952 --> 00:32:58,911 Speaker 3: than bookshops. But I think a lot of women were 557 00:32:59,671 --> 00:33:05,152 Speaker 3: Chopper fans. I think what you accuse me of not 558 00:33:05,272 --> 00:33:10,112 Speaker 3: smiling had a sense of humor. If you like Rodney 559 00:33:10,152 --> 00:33:12,872 Speaker 3: Rude or someone of the books are funny, even if 560 00:33:12,911 --> 00:33:16,792 Speaker 3: you don't, Yeah, there's moments in them. And I think 561 00:33:16,832 --> 00:33:22,152 Speaker 3: also the books that often had the early ones appendices 562 00:33:22,232 --> 00:33:26,231 Speaker 3: that would talk about either criminals at chopper Yuke or 563 00:33:26,272 --> 00:33:29,792 Speaker 3: who's who in the zoo, and Chopper would talk about 564 00:33:29,832 --> 00:33:31,711 Speaker 3: him as if he knew them. Where sometimes he didn't 565 00:33:31,712 --> 00:33:35,791 Speaker 3: even know them, but once you'd read those profiles by Chopper, 566 00:33:35,832 --> 00:33:38,992 Speaker 3: you could talk about those people and if you knew them. 567 00:33:39,152 --> 00:33:42,671 Speaker 3: But it was there was a sort of candid window 568 00:33:43,352 --> 00:33:47,711 Speaker 3: into the underworld before the days of Underbelly, and I 569 00:33:47,752 --> 00:33:53,032 Speaker 3: think people, Yeah, there was a people into a secret society, 570 00:33:53,072 --> 00:33:53,951 Speaker 3: an unknown world. 571 00:33:54,671 --> 00:33:59,632 Speaker 1: How do you think Chopper felt about how he's received? 572 00:33:59,671 --> 00:34:02,511 Speaker 1: I mean, Eric Banner obviously did that amazing performance of 573 00:34:02,592 --> 00:34:05,671 Speaker 1: him in the movie about his life and experiences, and 574 00:34:05,832 --> 00:34:08,672 Speaker 1: there's been a comedian who pretends to be Chopper and 575 00:34:08,712 --> 00:34:13,312 Speaker 1: there's you know, his takes of him on Australian comedy shows. 576 00:34:13,312 --> 00:34:15,352 Speaker 1: Like how do you think Chopper felt about how he 577 00:34:15,471 --> 00:34:18,672 Speaker 1: was received and then imitated after his kind of exploits 578 00:34:18,712 --> 00:34:20,712 Speaker 1: were written down on paper. 579 00:34:21,072 --> 00:34:25,312 Speaker 3: I think he was quite at the way Eric Banner 580 00:34:25,592 --> 00:34:29,431 Speaker 3: played him. Eric Banner was a beat Chopper than Chopper was, 581 00:34:30,272 --> 00:34:34,631 Speaker 3: like he was. You know, that's such an amazing performance. 582 00:34:34,712 --> 00:34:38,832 Speaker 3: It's so beautiful. If you've met Chopper and you sort 583 00:34:38,872 --> 00:34:42,952 Speaker 3: of Eric Banner in the Chopper movie, it's an extraordinary 584 00:34:42,951 --> 00:34:47,632 Speaker 3: either and I think Chopper thought that too, and Chopper 585 00:34:47,712 --> 00:34:53,512 Speaker 3: obviously helped coaching for it. Chopper told me actually before 586 00:34:53,712 --> 00:34:56,752 Speaker 3: it was announced that Banner was going to play, and 587 00:34:56,752 --> 00:34:59,792 Speaker 3: I didn't believe him. I tended to dismiss a lot 588 00:34:59,832 --> 00:35:02,671 Speaker 3: of what he said, but per absolutely more was true 589 00:35:02,712 --> 00:35:05,832 Speaker 3: than I gave him credit for throughout. But beyond that, 590 00:35:05,911 --> 00:35:07,791 Speaker 3: I mean he or he just tried to get money 591 00:35:07,792 --> 00:35:11,551 Speaker 3: off people. He thought that if you impersonated him, you 592 00:35:11,551 --> 00:35:14,672 Speaker 3: know you should pay him, because you know he's Shopper 593 00:35:14,712 --> 00:35:17,352 Speaker 3: Read and you're making money out of pretending to be 594 00:35:17,511 --> 00:35:21,352 Speaker 3: chopper Read. So slippers a quid mate, And it's not 595 00:35:21,431 --> 00:35:24,151 Speaker 3: a strange attitude at all for people who spent their 596 00:35:24,152 --> 00:35:26,471 Speaker 3: life in jail. You know, they're always looking for a 597 00:35:26,592 --> 00:35:29,791 Speaker 3: quick He would have stood over them if we could 598 00:35:29,991 --> 00:35:33,551 Speaker 3: these people, but when he couldn't, he'd, like, you know, 599 00:35:33,632 --> 00:35:38,711 Speaker 3: appeal to their charity. I guess, yeah, so he need 600 00:35:38,792 --> 00:35:42,712 Speaker 3: just wanted to quit out of it. He liked the notoriety. 601 00:35:43,752 --> 00:35:46,952 Speaker 1: Do you think other criminals got annoyed him for stealing 602 00:35:46,991 --> 00:35:48,792 Speaker 1: their stories because he takes credit for a lot of 603 00:35:48,832 --> 00:35:50,911 Speaker 1: crimes that other criminals obviously committed. 604 00:35:51,112 --> 00:35:52,432 Speaker 2: Do you think they can or do you think. 605 00:35:52,272 --> 00:35:55,232 Speaker 1: It's like a well, he's kind of removing the suspicion 606 00:35:55,272 --> 00:35:56,431 Speaker 1: from me in this situation. 607 00:35:57,031 --> 00:36:02,911 Speaker 3: I think one one someone to went up to a 608 00:36:02,991 --> 00:36:06,312 Speaker 3: crime that you'd committed and got away with. It's probably 609 00:36:06,352 --> 00:36:10,431 Speaker 3: really great deal of gratitude towards Chopper. In certain circles, 610 00:36:11,031 --> 00:36:16,672 Speaker 3: a lot of criminals I think became angry and alienated 611 00:36:17,192 --> 00:36:22,832 Speaker 3: by the idea that Chopper read was a big Underworld figure. 612 00:36:23,312 --> 00:36:26,431 Speaker 3: It's like, this is very much what's he ever done? 613 00:36:26,471 --> 00:36:31,551 Speaker 3: You know the name of bank that he's robbed, and yeah, 614 00:36:31,632 --> 00:36:34,672 Speaker 3: he was not a great harm robber, and arm robbers 615 00:36:34,712 --> 00:36:39,071 Speaker 3: were the criminal aristocracy of the time. Like he was 616 00:36:39,551 --> 00:36:45,631 Speaker 3: in jail for a long period in part which in 617 00:36:45,712 --> 00:36:49,872 Speaker 3: part because he'd attempted to kidnap a judge to get 618 00:36:49,872 --> 00:36:54,632 Speaker 3: his mate out of jail, which wasn't really considered the 619 00:36:54,752 --> 00:36:57,191 Speaker 3: dynamic adventure that he might have been, because he wasn't 620 00:36:57,272 --> 00:37:01,511 Speaker 3: thought to have had much chance of success. Chopper wasn't 621 00:37:01,511 --> 00:37:03,872 Speaker 3: a gang leader, he wasn't a big criminal. On the outside. 622 00:37:04,272 --> 00:37:07,151 Speaker 3: People would say I never heard of him, which basically, 623 00:37:07,192 --> 00:37:09,592 Speaker 3: whether they had or not, just means there were nobody 624 00:37:10,312 --> 00:37:15,192 Speaker 3: And I think that's where the hostility towards him came from. Initially, 625 00:37:15,232 --> 00:37:18,072 Speaker 3: when the books came out from the Underworld. 626 00:37:18,832 --> 00:37:21,071 Speaker 2: Did that motivate other crims to try and write their 627 00:37:21,112 --> 00:37:21,551 Speaker 2: own tale. 628 00:37:21,672 --> 00:37:27,872 Speaker 3: Yeah, Teddy's would write a terrible book following sub Chopper 629 00:37:27,991 --> 00:37:33,312 Speaker 3: work with sub Chopper chapters about other people in jail, 630 00:37:33,951 --> 00:37:40,111 Speaker 3: including the ted Eastwoods take on Chopper. And there were 631 00:37:40,272 --> 00:37:45,951 Speaker 3: self published books by other crims people said they were 632 00:37:45,951 --> 00:37:49,872 Speaker 3: going to write books but didn't who were involved in 633 00:37:49,951 --> 00:37:54,632 Speaker 3: the Overcoat Wars, according Base Division on the side against Chopper. 634 00:37:55,632 --> 00:37:59,672 Speaker 3: But yeah, but it opened the floodgates for Underbelly. You know, 635 00:37:59,752 --> 00:38:04,591 Speaker 3: the Chopper books were edited by my friend Andrew Rule 636 00:38:04,672 --> 00:38:09,071 Speaker 3: and John Sylvester to very very good journalist, and they 637 00:38:09,752 --> 00:38:15,431 Speaker 3: contemporaneously were putting together the Underbelly books, which were basically 638 00:38:15,551 --> 00:38:20,832 Speaker 3: compilation crime yards that led to the Underbelly TV show 639 00:38:21,352 --> 00:38:27,232 Speaker 3: that really made household names of small time Melbourne criminals 640 00:38:27,272 --> 00:38:30,991 Speaker 3: like Alphonse Gangitano in the same way that Chopper's books had. 641 00:38:34,272 --> 00:38:36,832 Speaker 1: Next, Mark tells us how he ended up in one 642 00:38:36,832 --> 00:38:37,712 Speaker 1: of Chopper's books. 643 00:38:41,312 --> 00:38:43,752 Speaker 2: You ended up in one of Chopper's books, eventually, didn't you. 644 00:38:44,471 --> 00:38:47,472 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I'm in Chopping nine and a half maybe. 645 00:38:47,511 --> 00:38:48,272 Speaker 2: Nine and a half. 646 00:38:48,431 --> 00:38:52,312 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's definitely a conraction in it. So yeah, Choppers 647 00:38:52,352 --> 00:38:58,511 Speaker 3: said he was referring back to in Men's Gallery, and 648 00:38:58,592 --> 00:39:02,072 Speaker 3: he said, I can't remember the exact words. He'd left 649 00:39:02,112 --> 00:39:07,152 Speaker 3: me with the strippers in the dressing room, and you know, 650 00:39:07,232 --> 00:39:09,712 Speaker 3: you can only imagine what our Lads mag editor might 651 00:39:09,792 --> 00:39:14,192 Speaker 3: get up to in circumstances. But that's not what happened. 652 00:39:14,192 --> 00:39:18,591 Speaker 3: As I say, we had left the club together. So 653 00:39:18,672 --> 00:39:22,031 Speaker 3: the next time I'd spoke to him a few times 654 00:39:22,152 --> 00:39:27,192 Speaker 3: in between then and the next time we met, he 655 00:39:27,632 --> 00:39:30,552 Speaker 3: gave me a racing tip once he wanted some money 656 00:39:31,072 --> 00:39:34,991 Speaker 3: because someone else had mentioned him in Ralph. But then 657 00:39:35,352 --> 00:39:40,111 Speaker 3: I interviewed him for Cinny Morning Herald. In fact, I 658 00:39:40,192 --> 00:39:40,832 Speaker 3: was freelance. 659 00:39:41,592 --> 00:39:45,071 Speaker 2: This is when he was doing the speaking engagements. 660 00:39:44,632 --> 00:39:49,992 Speaker 3: Right, him and Mark Jackson and on and off Warick 661 00:39:50,112 --> 00:39:54,832 Speaker 3: Kappa and Roger Rogerson were doing this kind of traveling 662 00:39:55,272 --> 00:39:57,712 Speaker 3: working men's club, cabaret working. 663 00:39:57,551 --> 00:39:59,992 Speaker 1: Man for those who don't know, the ex footy players 664 00:39:59,991 --> 00:40:01,712 Speaker 1: who are also known to be a bit sluggish on 665 00:40:01,712 --> 00:40:03,872 Speaker 1: the field and a corrupt police. 666 00:40:03,592 --> 00:40:05,752 Speaker 2: Officer corrupt New South. I was police officer. 667 00:40:05,832 --> 00:40:15,352 Speaker 3: Yeah, so basically it seems even stranger. Yeah, but yeah, so. 668 00:40:15,312 --> 00:40:20,272 Speaker 4: They were doing this speaking to around sort of large 669 00:40:20,312 --> 00:40:24,671 Speaker 4: country pubs and r s ls, so they were I 670 00:40:24,672 --> 00:40:29,511 Speaker 4: think I interviewed initially Stopper and Mark Jackson together and 671 00:40:29,632 --> 00:40:32,872 Speaker 4: like I went into Mark, I want to see what 672 00:40:32,872 --> 00:40:33,472 Speaker 4: would happen. 673 00:40:33,951 --> 00:40:35,551 Speaker 3: And I said, why do you lie about me in 674 00:40:35,592 --> 00:40:38,911 Speaker 3: your book? And Mark Jackson had no idea what I 675 00:40:39,031 --> 00:40:44,431 Speaker 3: was talking about, obviously, and I I said, you know, 676 00:40:44,511 --> 00:40:46,591 Speaker 3: I didn't you needn't leave me with The strict was 677 00:40:46,632 --> 00:40:48,991 Speaker 3: why did you say that? And Chopper double said, how 678 00:40:49,031 --> 00:40:51,832 Speaker 3: do you think my girlfriend haven't read that? And I 679 00:40:51,872 --> 00:40:54,911 Speaker 3: shouldn't feel anything because she doesn't read chop of books. 680 00:40:55,232 --> 00:40:58,752 Speaker 3: And he said, no, I left you there with a 681 00:40:58,752 --> 00:41:00,511 Speaker 3: bitch on one arm and a bomb in the other. 682 00:41:01,392 --> 00:41:05,312 Speaker 3: And then things got things started to get out of hand. 683 00:41:06,392 --> 00:41:10,352 Speaker 3: Up Jackson tried to calm things down, and Chopper tried 684 00:41:10,392 --> 00:41:13,711 Speaker 3: to get them by going back up again. And it 685 00:41:13,832 --> 00:41:17,632 Speaker 3: was there's this kind of train wreck, car crash interview 686 00:41:17,911 --> 00:41:21,991 Speaker 3: that none nless I recycled time and time again. Now 687 00:41:22,431 --> 00:41:25,232 Speaker 3: it worked for me, it worked for Chopper Shul it 688 00:41:25,272 --> 00:41:28,231 Speaker 3: really worked for Mark Jackson. But it goes to show 689 00:41:28,352 --> 00:41:31,072 Speaker 3: the way that we fed off him. The media feeds 690 00:41:31,112 --> 00:41:35,152 Speaker 3: off him, he feeds off us. The conflict is, you 691 00:41:35,232 --> 00:41:38,592 Speaker 3: know it makes good copy. Chopper always made good copy 692 00:41:38,872 --> 00:41:41,792 Speaker 3: and he made great photos as well, tinued out, I 693 00:41:41,872 --> 00:41:42,272 Speaker 3: knew that. 694 00:41:43,272 --> 00:41:43,832 Speaker 2: Well, that's the thing. 695 00:41:43,832 --> 00:41:47,071 Speaker 1: Would Mark Chopper read have been the Chopper read that 696 00:41:47,112 --> 00:41:50,511 Speaker 1: we know without the influence and support of the Australian media. 697 00:41:51,672 --> 00:41:57,071 Speaker 3: Would he have been that? In his private life? He 698 00:41:57,112 --> 00:42:01,752 Speaker 3: would have been a little known street sug I would 699 00:42:01,752 --> 00:42:09,511 Speaker 3: imagine with a confused reputation in Joe. But he, as 700 00:42:09,511 --> 00:42:14,071 Speaker 3: I said, Chopper was a master masters storytellers creature. He 701 00:42:14,192 --> 00:42:16,111 Speaker 3: was a very good story he did have. 702 00:42:16,312 --> 00:42:18,312 Speaker 1: Does a master story stealer by the sounds of it, 703 00:42:18,392 --> 00:42:19,911 Speaker 1: rather than a story storyteller. 704 00:42:20,192 --> 00:42:23,631 Speaker 3: But you know, stories are stolen and have been in 705 00:42:24,471 --> 00:42:28,471 Speaker 3: oral cultures since I will guess the beginning of time. 706 00:42:28,511 --> 00:42:32,872 Speaker 3: You know, I didn't write the Odyssey like he did, perhaps, 707 00:42:33,152 --> 00:42:37,991 Speaker 3: but you know the the Bible, they're all oral traditions 708 00:42:38,352 --> 00:42:46,071 Speaker 3: written down there. They talk, They talk of archetypes. The 709 00:42:47,951 --> 00:42:54,111 Speaker 3: chops his own almost creation of redemption stories. He yeah, 710 00:42:54,152 --> 00:42:57,832 Speaker 3: he stole people's stories. Other people stole other people's stories. 711 00:42:58,232 --> 00:43:01,352 Speaker 3: Other people's stories probably weren't through either. In an oral 712 00:43:01,392 --> 00:43:06,551 Speaker 3: society like jail and people are you know, constantly adapting 713 00:43:06,672 --> 00:43:10,312 Speaker 3: their stories to see their aldience. Anyway, I think stealing 714 00:43:10,392 --> 00:43:13,712 Speaker 3: stories perhaps was the least of his crimes. 715 00:43:14,752 --> 00:43:18,471 Speaker 1: When you met him, he was living in rural Tasmania 716 00:43:18,511 --> 00:43:21,272 Speaker 1: and he was essentially a farmer kind of by then. 717 00:43:21,312 --> 00:43:24,192 Speaker 1: I honestly cannot imagine Chopper read out feeding the chooks 718 00:43:24,232 --> 00:43:24,792 Speaker 1: every morning. 719 00:43:24,832 --> 00:43:27,111 Speaker 2: But like, what were his later years like? 720 00:43:27,832 --> 00:43:31,911 Speaker 3: Well, he married this woman called Mary Anne Hodge, who 721 00:43:32,031 --> 00:43:37,192 Speaker 3: again had a Seventh Day Adventist background, who had visited 722 00:43:37,272 --> 00:43:40,832 Speaker 3: him in jail, and he later said that he'd married 723 00:43:40,872 --> 00:43:44,392 Speaker 3: her to get out of jail. Who knows whether that's true. 724 00:43:45,031 --> 00:43:48,832 Speaker 3: They had a son together, and he was apparently abusive 725 00:43:49,272 --> 00:43:57,631 Speaker 3: ro son. They got divorced and Dropper married his childhood sweetheart, 726 00:43:58,511 --> 00:44:02,872 Speaker 3: his adolescent sweetheart, Margaret Khazzar, and they had a son 727 00:44:02,911 --> 00:44:07,712 Speaker 3: as well. I met Margaret and her son at DeLong 728 00:44:07,832 --> 00:44:14,192 Speaker 3: Jail late last year. They were at remembrance of Ronald 729 00:44:14,272 --> 00:44:21,191 Speaker 3: Ryan Day last Man hun and the son was very impressive, 730 00:44:22,911 --> 00:44:30,031 Speaker 3: quite formal guy. Margaret was back friendly than she would 731 00:44:30,031 --> 00:44:34,711 Speaker 3: have been issu'd have known who I was. Wow, And yeah, 732 00:44:34,752 --> 00:44:36,551 Speaker 3: he left out his final years with them. 733 00:44:37,072 --> 00:44:39,912 Speaker 1: The thing he mentioned about his later years too, Chopper, 734 00:44:39,991 --> 00:44:43,312 Speaker 1: is that he managed to kind of walk around fairly uninhibited, 735 00:44:43,752 --> 00:44:47,911 Speaker 1: like he never seemed scared that maybe there was retribution 736 00:44:48,072 --> 00:44:50,312 Speaker 1: coming his way when he was out in the public. 737 00:44:50,431 --> 00:44:53,191 Speaker 1: Why do you think that he kind of lived out 738 00:44:53,232 --> 00:44:57,072 Speaker 1: his later years fairly unencumbered by any old debts from prison. 739 00:44:58,592 --> 00:45:03,712 Speaker 3: I think a lot of people who he had crossed 740 00:45:03,752 --> 00:45:07,511 Speaker 3: were dead. He did it's very best to make you, 741 00:45:07,632 --> 00:45:12,192 Speaker 3: and he made any reason who was in the Marine 742 00:45:12,232 --> 00:45:15,511 Speaker 3: family were for no good reason. He did speak out 743 00:45:15,592 --> 00:45:18,872 Speaker 3: against people who with whom he had no apparent beef. 744 00:45:19,832 --> 00:45:22,071 Speaker 3: I think some people thought he was a joke, some 745 00:45:22,112 --> 00:45:24,991 Speaker 3: people were frightened of him, and some people were dead 746 00:45:25,672 --> 00:45:29,111 Speaker 3: the time the days of that particular gang, of all 747 00:45:29,232 --> 00:45:34,672 Speaker 3: whatever standoffs in Melbourne were over. By then, the center 748 00:45:34,712 --> 00:45:40,151 Speaker 3: of organized crime had very much moved towards drugs and 749 00:45:40,592 --> 00:45:43,712 Speaker 3: various other families that quite well known. Now Chopper was 750 00:45:43,752 --> 00:45:45,031 Speaker 3: pretty much in your elegancy. 751 00:45:46,991 --> 00:45:50,392 Speaker 1: So he was diagnosed with terminal cancer in twenty twelve 752 00:45:50,712 --> 00:45:53,872 Speaker 1: and passed away in twenty thirteen. But before he did so, 753 00:45:54,031 --> 00:45:55,951 Speaker 1: he did an interview with the Channel nine where he 754 00:45:56,031 --> 00:46:00,071 Speaker 1: kind of did a deathbed confession to a few murders. 755 00:46:00,431 --> 00:46:03,392 Speaker 1: I mean, knowing what we know about Chopper, how true 756 00:46:03,551 --> 00:46:04,471 Speaker 1: do you think they are? 757 00:46:05,112 --> 00:46:07,111 Speaker 3: I doubt where he may have done one of them. 758 00:46:07,832 --> 00:46:10,392 Speaker 3: I don't think. I don't think there's any more truths 759 00:46:10,471 --> 00:46:13,712 Speaker 3: to the confession he made on his deathbed than the 760 00:46:13,752 --> 00:46:17,511 Speaker 3: confessions that he made and prompted throughout his life in 761 00:46:17,592 --> 00:46:20,111 Speaker 3: order to sell his books and nhance his reputation. 762 00:46:21,232 --> 00:46:23,951 Speaker 1: Since Chopper's passing, is there ever anything that you think 763 00:46:23,951 --> 00:46:26,352 Speaker 1: about or dwell on that you would have liked to 764 00:46:26,392 --> 00:46:28,751 Speaker 1: have asked him and maybe get an honest answer about 765 00:46:28,872 --> 00:46:29,872 Speaker 1: before he passed away. 766 00:46:30,872 --> 00:46:36,431 Speaker 3: When I was writing about him exploiting once again our 767 00:46:36,551 --> 00:46:42,872 Speaker 3: very brief acquaintanceship, if that's a word. I did wonder 768 00:46:43,752 --> 00:46:49,951 Speaker 3: how devoted he was to his children. I did wonder 769 00:46:50,632 --> 00:46:57,152 Speaker 3: whether fatherhood really had softened him. I did wonder what 770 00:46:57,392 --> 00:47:02,512 Speaker 3: he thought about bringing up children, really after the way 771 00:47:02,592 --> 00:47:06,591 Speaker 3: that he had been brought up. I did wonder how 772 00:47:07,511 --> 00:47:11,192 Speaker 3: he would feel if he knew that one of his 773 00:47:11,431 --> 00:47:15,551 Speaker 3: kids was basically following in the footsteps. I wondered a 774 00:47:15,592 --> 00:47:20,872 Speaker 3: lot about what Chopper's ideas, how Chopper may have changed 775 00:47:20,911 --> 00:47:24,751 Speaker 3: in those last years, how fatherhood had affected him, and 776 00:47:24,792 --> 00:47:27,352 Speaker 3: how he hoped what kind of a life he hoped 777 00:47:27,392 --> 00:47:28,632 Speaker 3: for his sons. 778 00:47:30,031 --> 00:47:32,271 Speaker 1: So I sorted to finish up on in your line 779 00:47:32,272 --> 00:47:34,751 Speaker 1: of work, You've met and spoken to and spent time 780 00:47:34,792 --> 00:47:37,312 Speaker 1: with a few different career criminals. 781 00:47:37,312 --> 00:47:39,631 Speaker 2: Do you think there's anyone that can compare to Chopper. 782 00:47:39,312 --> 00:47:43,471 Speaker 3: Read he's a kind of chop is a sort of 783 00:47:43,551 --> 00:47:45,591 Speaker 3: caricature of all violent. 784 00:47:49,031 --> 00:47:49,231 Speaker 2: Yeah. 785 00:47:49,272 --> 00:47:51,232 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean a lot of people are vaguely liking. 786 00:47:51,752 --> 00:47:55,471 Speaker 3: There's people with their sense of humor. There's more charismatic 787 00:47:55,471 --> 00:47:58,431 Speaker 3: than people. I'm thinking of John Killick here, the guy 788 00:47:58,471 --> 00:48:06,031 Speaker 3: who somehow conspired with his Russian girlfriend to hijacker helicopter 789 00:48:06,152 --> 00:48:10,471 Speaker 3: and have him airlifted out of Silver Worder jail in 790 00:48:10,551 --> 00:48:11,752 Speaker 3: nineteen ninety nine. 791 00:48:12,272 --> 00:48:14,832 Speaker 2: I mean successfully, he did get out for a bit. 792 00:48:14,792 --> 00:48:18,672 Speaker 3: Get out. He didn't get out of Australia. Yeah. John's 793 00:48:19,632 --> 00:48:23,431 Speaker 3: funnier and more charismatic and a better rider than Chopper, 794 00:48:23,991 --> 00:48:31,151 Speaker 3: But he doesn't He's not that thug end of the scale. Yeah. 795 00:48:31,192 --> 00:48:35,832 Speaker 3: As I said, I think he's Choppers was a conscious 796 00:48:35,911 --> 00:48:39,232 Speaker 3: caricature of a lot of similar people. 797 00:48:43,152 --> 00:48:45,272 Speaker 1: Thank you to Mark for helping us tell the story. 798 00:48:45,431 --> 00:48:47,552 Speaker 1: You can read more about his book, The First Murderer 799 00:48:47,632 --> 00:48:49,632 Speaker 1: I Ever Met at the link in our show notes. 800 00:48:49,951 --> 00:48:51,872 Speaker 1: If you want to see images from this story, head 801 00:48:51,872 --> 00:48:55,111 Speaker 1: to our Instagram page at True Crime Conversations, Give us 802 00:48:55,112 --> 00:48:56,991 Speaker 1: a follow and have a look at our case explainers 803 00:48:56,991 --> 00:48:59,792 Speaker 1: as well. If you enjoyed this episode, please review our 804 00:48:59,832 --> 00:49:02,752 Speaker 1: show on Apple Podcasts or leave a comment on Spotify. 805 00:49:03,312 --> 00:49:05,991 Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations is hosted by me Claire Murphy and 806 00:49:06,471 --> 00:49:09,191 Speaker 1: by Tarlie Blackman, with audio designed by Jacob Brown. 807 00:49:09,551 --> 00:49:10,512 Speaker 2: Thanks so much for listening. 808 00:49:10,632 --> 00:49:13,272 Speaker 1: I'll be back next week with another True Crime Conversation.