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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mea podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mumma Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on high Quickie friends Clare

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Speaker 2: Murphy here back in your ears today to share a

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Speaker 2: special listening recommendation from our good mate Mere Friedman over

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Speaker 2: on the No Filter podcast. Not sure if you're aware,

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Speaker 2: but today marks the ten year anniversary of the Lint

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Speaker 2: Cafe siege. On this day in twenty fourteen, Man harn Monis,

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Speaker 2: a refugee from Iran who'd become an Australian citizen, took

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Speaker 2: eighteen people hostage at the Sydney cafe. Hostages were forced

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Speaker 2: to stand in front of the windows to shield the

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Speaker 2: terrorist inside, who'd put a black Islamic flag up to

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Speaker 2: make it clear that this was a politically motivated terror attack.

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Speaker 2: For more than sixteen hours, Australia watched on as the

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Speaker 2: siege was beamed into our lound rooms courtesy of Channel seven,

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Speaker 2: whose studios were situated directly across the mall from the cafe.

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Speaker 2: We held our breath as we watched some of the

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Speaker 2: hostages make a quick escape out of kitchen door safety.

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Speaker 2: It felt like a physical blow when we learned that

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Speaker 2: cafe manager Torrey Johnston had been shot and killed by

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Speaker 2: the terrorist. When police finally decided to move in after

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Speaker 2: a hail of bullets, Man Haran Monas would be dead.

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Speaker 2: Barrister Katrina Dawson would also be killed, caught in the crossfire.

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Speaker 2: If you ask most Australians, they'll be able to recall

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Speaker 2: where they were at the time of this siege. For

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Speaker 2: most of us, it was the first time that terrorism

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Speaker 2: was this close to home and not in some far

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Speaker 2: flung place. For Luisa Hope, one of the hostages, it

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Speaker 2: was the day her life would change forever. Mia Friedman

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Speaker 2: sat down with Luisa on the fifth anniversary of the siege,

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Speaker 2: reflecting on how she felt in that moment and in

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Speaker 2: the years it followed, including the overwhelming care and compassion

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Speaker 2: that she received after being shot and injured during the

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Speaker 2: events of December fifteenth, twenty fourteen.

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Speaker 3: Take a listen. You have that moment where you go, well,

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Speaker 3: this is it. I remember thinking, survived this whole day

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Speaker 3: and now we're going to die right.

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Speaker 1: Now From Mamma Mia, I'm Meya Friedman, and you're listening

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Speaker 1: to No Filter, a podcast about people with fascinating stories

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Speaker 1: to tell. When Louisa Hope walked into Sydney's Link Cafe

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Speaker 1: five years ago, she never expected her life would change

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Speaker 1: within minutes. It began as a very ordinary day, but

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Speaker 1: over the next seventeen hours, Louisa and her mother were

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Speaker 1: held at gunpoint and trapped along with sixteen other hostages,

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Speaker 1: before the siege ended in gunfire and tragedy. If you're

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Speaker 1: anything like me, I bet you remember exactly what you

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Speaker 1: were doing that day when you heard that a terrorist

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Speaker 1: was holding people hostage in a cafe in the middle

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Speaker 1: of the Sydney CBD, mere meters from a TV station.

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Speaker 1: But what went on inside the Link Cafe that long

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Speaker 1: day and dark night, and what happened afterwards to the survivors?

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Speaker 1: How did they recover? Did they recover? Louisa Hope is

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Speaker 1: one of those rare people I've met only a few

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Speaker 1: times in my life. It's like it's like she's lit

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Speaker 1: from within. I'm not sure what it is, but this

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Speaker 1: is honestly one of the most extraordinary conversations I've ever had,

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Speaker 1: and Louisa is quite simply one of the most riveting

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Speaker 1: people I've interviewed. In the four years since this podcast, began.

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Speaker 1: Here is the very aptly named Louisa Hope. I know

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Speaker 1: that Lee Sales interviewed you for her book An Ordinary Day.

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Speaker 1: It was an ordinary day, yes, so everybody that was there.

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Speaker 1: There was nothing special about it at all in the beginning.

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Speaker 1: How did the day start for you and your mum?

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Speaker 3: So, Mum and I were we had come to town

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Speaker 3: the night before actually because we had an appointment at

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Speaker 3: the lawyer who happened to be in the same building

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Speaker 3: as the lint upstairs. And we are Mom's out near

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Speaker 3: the Blue Mountains living at the time, so we decided

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Speaker 3: that we'd come in on the Sunday night. We stayed

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Speaker 3: down at the Hilton and we just decided, rather than

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Speaker 3: deal with the traffic on the Monday morning, that we

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Speaker 3: would do that. And we had a lovely time together anyway.

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Speaker 3: And so in the morning we had that moment where

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Speaker 3: we went, will we go to the Link for breakfast

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Speaker 3: or will we just stay here at the Hilton? What

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Speaker 3: will we do? You know, tossing and turning the idea,

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Speaker 3: and decided we only wanted something small, so we went,

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Speaker 3: of course to the Link. We just you know, that's

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Speaker 3: sliding all moment. But yeah, so just random, random but

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Speaker 3: you know, really, Mum and I probably were the people

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Speaker 3: who should have least been there because you know.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't your town, it was in your area.

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Speaker 3: No, that's right. We were in the Yeah, very much

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Speaker 3: in that wrong kind of place and the wrong story

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Speaker 3: for us actually at that time. But there you go,

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Speaker 3: that's what happens.

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Speaker 1: I'm so sorry about your mum. You lost your mum last.

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Speaker 3: Year and yeah, that's right. She died in September, and

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Speaker 3: it for us as a family, we all feel that

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Speaker 3: Mum was never the same after the cafe, and we're

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Speaker 3: very aware of that. But you know, we're comforted by

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Speaker 3: the fact that she had a really glorious death and

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Speaker 3: that was it was lovely really to all be together

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Speaker 3: for that. But yes, we imagined that we were going

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Speaker 3: to have it for quite a lot longer because she's

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Speaker 3: very vital and you know, go go kind of woman.

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Speaker 1: Having come so close to death on that day, How

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Speaker 1: was it different when you know, because the sliding doors moments, again,

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Speaker 1: you could have both lost your lives so easily in

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Speaker 1: the cafe that day. How did it go in the end, Well.

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Speaker 3: You know, the the concluding moments, I don't know you know,

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Speaker 3: some people would have watched it right to the end

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Speaker 3: on television, but for us inside, the intensity and the

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Speaker 3: you know, the adrenaline that just rushes through your body,

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Speaker 3: it's so overwhelming. It's like you drip adrenaline in that moment,

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Speaker 3: and I think that, well, actually, Mum and I both

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Speaker 3: came out of the cafe we were related to discover

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Speaker 3: assuming that the other was dead, because we couldn't imagine

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Speaker 3: how anyone could have survived. And you know, in the

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Speaker 3: fact of the matter is is that all of us

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Speaker 3: were injured in the cafe at the end, anyone who

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Speaker 3: was in the actual cafe was injured, and sadly, of course,

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Speaker 3: Katrina's injuries led to her death. So you know, but

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Speaker 3: the moment of thinking that you're absolutely going to die

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Speaker 3: right there and then it's very real. You know, you

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Speaker 3: just sort of kind of have that moment where you go, well,

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Speaker 3: this is it, this is really going to be it.

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Speaker 3: I remember thinking survived this whole day and now we're

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Speaker 3: going to die right now, and so that's kind of

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Speaker 3: like it just stops you in your in your heart

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Speaker 3: and in your in your tracks.

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Speaker 1: Really, does your life flash before your eyes like they

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Speaker 1: say did you think of a person.

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Speaker 3: Did you think of her?

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Speaker 1: What did you think?

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Speaker 3: No? I just thought, well, actually what I thought was, oh, well, god,

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Speaker 3: here I'm coming, ready or not? You know, this is

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Speaker 3: me and there's no time now to make any addressments

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Speaker 3: or amends or try and do things different.

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Speaker 1: For a bucket list.

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Speaker 3: That's right. It definitely was too late for that bucket list.

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Speaker 3: And it was kind of like, yes, well here we are,

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Speaker 3: it's going to end like this, just the shock of

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Speaker 3: that idea.

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Speaker 1: But where were you in that moment?

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Speaker 3: I was on the floor. I was on the floor actually,

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Speaker 3: and having been standing right next to the gunman, I

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Speaker 3: kind of suddenly found myself on the floor. So and

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Speaker 3: I had my hands covering my eyes because the gunfire

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Speaker 3: was so intense and it was just full on, and

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Speaker 3: I actually had that thought, oh, well, I'm going to

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Speaker 3: die right here, right now, and those will watch, you know.

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Speaker 3: So I took my hands away and opened my eyes,

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Speaker 3: but could hardly see a thing because the gun smoke

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Speaker 3: in the room, and of course it was dark, but

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Speaker 3: it's so intense it was very hard to see. But

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Speaker 3: you know, I figured I mos will watch. It was

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Speaker 3: going to die.

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Speaker 1: What happened when the gunshots stopped.

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Speaker 3: You know, that was really interesting because that's just how

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Speaker 3: it was. It was this intense which felt like you

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Speaker 3: know ages, you know, just like a car accident, fast

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Speaker 3: and slow at the same time. But when it stopped,

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Speaker 3: it just stopped suddenly, just oh, okay, it's over. And

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Speaker 3: I had that oh I'm still alive, and I'm kind

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Speaker 3: of feeling my head thinking, am I okay? And because

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Speaker 3: I had seen my foot in the hole on my

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Speaker 3: foot already and I realized that, and I thought, okay,

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Speaker 3: it's just my foot, I'm okay. Everywhere else okay, And

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Speaker 3: then you kind of start I'm starting to slowly get

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Speaker 3: myself up. In the next minute, one of the tag

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Speaker 3: team guys is over the top of me shouting, shouting,

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Speaker 3: get up, get up, run run, and I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 3: I can't run my foot and he hauls me up

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Speaker 3: and at the same time he says to me, can

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Speaker 3: you hop? And I went, okay, I guess only I can.

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Speaker 3: So you know, it was one of those crazy kind

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Speaker 3: of moments. But you know, the tack guy says hop

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Speaker 3: and you you hop? Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: So you know, did you know where your mum was

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Speaker 1: at that stage?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 1: How would you two become separated.

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Speaker 3: Well, we had been positioned on either side of him,

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Speaker 3: so Mum was on the right side of him, closest

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Speaker 3: to the kitchen at the lint, and I was on

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Speaker 3: the left, closest to martin place side of him, and

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Speaker 3: so we had gotten separated in the you know, the

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Speaker 3: furor of what was happening at the end, So that

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Speaker 3: separation was just like added to the So once you

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Speaker 3: kind of do the check, yes, I'm all in one piece,

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Speaker 3: and then you know, they come behind me, actually two

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Speaker 3: of the tack guys because I was obviously slow, and

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Speaker 3: scooped me up and took me out and just gently

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Speaker 3: placed me on the on the you know road there

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Speaker 3: in Philip Street, and you know, I kind of had

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Speaker 3: that moment of oh, I'm alive and the overwhelming gratitude like,

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Speaker 3: thank God, I am still alive, and at the same time,

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Speaker 3: but Mum must be dead. There's no way she could

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Speaker 3: have survived, because you know, I actually I didn't know

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Speaker 3: at that stage that Katrina was still in the cafe.

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Speaker 3: I thought you'd escaped with all the others, and in

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Speaker 3: a flash of a moment, I saw that Marcia was

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Speaker 3: still there. But I just had assumed that it was

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Speaker 3: just my mother and I and Tory that was still

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Speaker 3: left there. That was all that he realized. Was there

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Speaker 3: the gunman, and so.

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Speaker 1: Was everyone else hiding everyone else.

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Speaker 3: Had escaped, So they'd all escaped and the escape. I'm

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Speaker 3: so grateful that they had escaped, because you know, if

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Speaker 3: there had been more of us in the cafe, there

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Speaker 3: perhaps would have been more, definitely more injury, and perhaps

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Speaker 3: more may have died.

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Speaker 1: I'm told that the people who did escape, many of

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Speaker 1: them lived with tremendous guilt.

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Speaker 3: Oh if I could only just say to all of them,

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Speaker 3: you know, please don't be guilty. I'm so grateful that

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Speaker 3: you got out when you did. And I think, in hindsight,

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Speaker 3: that was the smartest thing to do. I mean, certainly

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Speaker 3: Mum and I, you know, we talked about it afterwards,

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Speaker 3: but we were all just waiting because we assumed the

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Speaker 3: police were coming. So we're just waiting the police will come.

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Speaker 3: And so yes, those who took the initiative to run

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Speaker 3: to escape the way they did, that was the wisest

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Speaker 3: thing to do.

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Speaker 1: How did the gunman react every time he found out

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Speaker 1: people escaped or did he not realize.

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Speaker 3: Well, he was very aware that the first three escaped. Originally,

219
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Speaker 3: like all of us in that moment, he thought that

220
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Speaker 3: the police were coming in. And it was only the

221
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Speaker 3: quick thinking of young Jared Malton Hoffman who said that no, no,

222
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Speaker 3: they've escaped that we all suddenly went from like off

223
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Speaker 3: the Richter, you know, tension and you know, everything was

224
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Speaker 3: going nuts at the moment. In the moment, then he

225
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Speaker 3: just suddenly calmed down, realizing that that escaped and that

226
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Speaker 3: the police weren't coming. But what he didn't know was

227
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Speaker 3: that the other two young girls had quietly escaped, just

228
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Speaker 3: ever so quiet. It was amazing really, So he didn't

229
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Speaker 3: know that there were actually five that had escaped. He

230
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Speaker 3: only thought that three, three men had escaped. However, and

231
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Speaker 3: this is an important thing to be thinking about. On

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Speaker 3: the day, the media were reporting every hour on the

233
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Speaker 3: hour that five people had escaped. So we had to

234
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Speaker 3: calm him with that by saying things like, oh, you

235
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Speaker 3: know what the media is like, they just lie, they're exaggerating.

236
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Speaker 3: Only three people have escaped. Now, this was important for

237
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Speaker 3: us in the room because when those three first three

238
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Speaker 3: had escaped, he told us all that if anyone else escaped,

239
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Speaker 3: he'd kill someone, so we're all on you know, high

240
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Speaker 3: alert in a day that was already like ultra tense.

241
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Speaker 3: That just sort of added to the tension. So every

242
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Speaker 3: time the news reports were coming through, we had to

243
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Speaker 3: calm him down by just saying, you know, the media lie,

244
00:13:04,934 --> 00:13:08,814
Speaker 3: but they were reporting a fact as it was true. However,

245
00:13:09,134 --> 00:13:11,894
Speaker 3: it was impacting on us in the room, and if

246
00:13:11,934 --> 00:13:15,094
Speaker 3: he had kind of like figured it out, then we

247
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Speaker 3: could have really been in a dire situation.

248
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Speaker 1: The media had no idea that you had access or

249
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Speaker 1: did they, And how did you have access to media.

250
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Speaker 3: On everyone's phones? You know, we all have media in

251
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Speaker 3: our pockets now.

252
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Speaker 1: So he didn't take everyone's phone. He did.

253
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Speaker 3: What he did was he asked us right up front,

254
00:13:33,534 --> 00:13:35,934
Speaker 3: he said, put your ID and your wallets and your

255
00:13:35,934 --> 00:13:38,734
Speaker 3: phones on the table in front of us, you know,

256
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Speaker 3: where we were all sitting. So we all did that.

257
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Speaker 3: So of course, but everyone had phones. And so as

258
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Speaker 3: the day went on and he progressively was trying to

259
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Speaker 3: get us to get him media attention, using our phones

260
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Speaker 3: become a thing. Yeah. So yeah, we all had you know,

261
00:13:53,254 --> 00:13:56,134
Speaker 3: information all day, and everything that was being reported was

262
00:13:56,174 --> 00:13:58,814
Speaker 3: being reported into us. So it's an interesting kind of

263
00:13:58,814 --> 00:14:01,494
Speaker 3: thing for us to think about, especially for the media,

264
00:14:01,814 --> 00:14:05,814
Speaker 3: how do we address this from a global situation. Whatever

265
00:14:05,894 --> 00:14:07,534
Speaker 3: is being said in the media will of course, we've

266
00:14:07,574 --> 00:14:10,534
Speaker 3: just got to assume that it does that'll be impacting

267
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Speaker 3: on a live situation. For example, very late in the

268
00:14:13,774 --> 00:14:17,574
Speaker 3: night early morning in London, BBC were reporting on what

269
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Speaker 3: was happening in Sydney. So they were saying, we're listening

270
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Speaker 3: to the report, and it was one of those moments

271
00:14:22,974 --> 00:14:26,494
Speaker 3: when the BBC London saying, and we're watching live in

272
00:14:26,534 --> 00:14:29,334
Speaker 3: Sydney the hostage situation there, and we can see that

273
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Speaker 3: the police are surrounding the cafe. And I remember absolutely

274
00:14:33,414 --> 00:14:37,774
Speaker 3: holding my breath because he thought that there were no police.

275
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Speaker 3: He really thought that there were no police surrounding the cafe,

276
00:14:41,614 --> 00:14:44,294
Speaker 3: that they're all off at a distance, because that's what

277
00:14:44,334 --> 00:14:48,574
Speaker 3: he's demanded being So of course we're hearing that, and

278
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Speaker 3: I could actually hear my heart thumping in my chest

279
00:14:53,174 --> 00:14:56,214
Speaker 3: because I knew that if he realized that the police

280
00:14:56,254 --> 00:15:00,494
Speaker 3: were surrounding the cave from a report from London, the

281
00:15:00,534 --> 00:15:03,174
Speaker 3: other side of the world, that once again we're all

282
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Speaker 3: at risk. Fortunately, and I do not know how he

283
00:15:06,054 --> 00:15:08,814
Speaker 3: missed it. It may have been he didn't catch the

284
00:15:08,934 --> 00:15:12,174
Speaker 3: lady's axe, or he didn't he was fatiguing, or he

285
00:15:12,294 --> 00:15:15,494
Speaker 3: was distracted somehow, and he did not hear that, and

286
00:15:15,534 --> 00:15:18,414
Speaker 3: he did not react. But it certainly put me on edge.

287
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Speaker 1: And mum, everybody, really, when did you first become aware

288
00:15:21,814 --> 00:15:26,094
Speaker 1: on that morning that it wasn't just a regular cup

289
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Speaker 1: of hot chocolate.

290
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Speaker 3: You know, likes just such a strange circumstance. I was

291
00:15:31,254 --> 00:15:34,294
Speaker 3: actually I decided that, you know, it's time to go,

292
00:15:34,374 --> 00:15:37,494
Speaker 3: and I went to pay for a breakfast and the

293
00:15:37,574 --> 00:15:40,654
Speaker 3: young girl who was serving me, I think it was April,

294
00:15:40,694 --> 00:15:42,654
Speaker 3: and she said she was just there taking my money,

295
00:15:42,694 --> 00:15:44,854
Speaker 3: and her mouth is a ghast. I'm thinking, this young

296
00:15:44,894 --> 00:15:48,134
Speaker 3: girl is not paying attention, you know, but of course

297
00:15:48,534 --> 00:15:51,774
Speaker 3: I'm paying her. And she could see, you know, behind me,

298
00:15:51,854 --> 00:15:54,094
Speaker 3: and she could see him standing up, starting to make

299
00:15:54,134 --> 00:15:57,934
Speaker 3: his proclamation and putting his bandana on. And so by

300
00:15:57,974 --> 00:16:01,814
Speaker 3: the time I turned around to go back to sit down, he's,

301
00:16:02,014 --> 00:16:04,894
Speaker 3: like I said, putting his bandana on, and he's adjusting himself.

302
00:16:04,934 --> 00:16:07,774
Speaker 3: He's making his speech. He's saying, I want you to

303
00:16:07,814 --> 00:16:09,974
Speaker 3: know Australia is under attack and I want to speak

304
00:16:09,974 --> 00:16:12,774
Speaker 3: to the Prime Minister. On National radio and I've got

305
00:16:12,814 --> 00:16:16,414
Speaker 3: a bomb in my backpack, and I'm thinking in my head,

306
00:16:16,534 --> 00:16:19,254
Speaker 3: I actually thought, oh, this is ridiculous. It's a joke.

307
00:16:19,734 --> 00:16:21,614
Speaker 3: You know, we're across the road from Channel seven. This

308
00:16:21,694 --> 00:16:25,014
Speaker 3: must be some sort of like perverted kind of candid camera.

309
00:16:25,894 --> 00:16:28,174
Speaker 3: But when he pulled out the gun, it was then

310
00:16:28,254 --> 00:16:30,974
Speaker 3: me and that I just like went, it's real. You know,

311
00:16:31,054 --> 00:16:35,854
Speaker 3: this is real. And of course you think in that moment, well,

312
00:16:35,934 --> 00:16:38,334
Speaker 3: this is a terrorist action, and what to terrorists do?

313
00:16:38,454 --> 00:16:41,254
Speaker 3: They kill you? Right, You're dead. So it's just that

314
00:16:42,294 --> 00:16:45,854
Speaker 3: adjustment of your reality. You know, one minute I'm thinking

315
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Speaker 3: about the rest of our morning, and the next minute,

316
00:16:48,574 --> 00:16:51,694
Speaker 3: right here, right now, we're dead. But of course that

317
00:16:51,734 --> 00:16:52,414
Speaker 3: wasn't what he did.

318
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Speaker 1: Did people react in different ways.

319
00:16:55,614 --> 00:16:57,414
Speaker 3: I think we're all just a little bit stunned, And

320
00:16:57,454 --> 00:17:00,494
Speaker 3: everyone was very quiet and listening, trying to pay attention.

321
00:17:01,294 --> 00:17:05,974
Speaker 3: The gunman himself was busy trying to articulate very clearly.

322
00:17:06,054 --> 00:17:08,774
Speaker 3: He was obviously aware of his accent and was trying

323
00:17:08,814 --> 00:17:12,254
Speaker 3: to articulate very clearly what his demands were and what

324
00:17:12,294 --> 00:17:15,214
Speaker 3: he was expecting of us. So we all just were

325
00:17:15,254 --> 00:17:18,054
Speaker 3: like in a state of shock, really, So there was

326
00:17:18,094 --> 00:17:20,654
Speaker 3: no kind of screaming or anything like that.

327
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Speaker 1: It was just, yeah, did he sort of try to

328
00:17:25,054 --> 00:17:28,134
Speaker 1: organize you very quickly or did you organize yourselves?

329
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Speaker 3: No, he was well, he was instantly in control. Obviously

330
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Speaker 3: the gun, threat of bombs, all that kind of thing.

331
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Speaker 3: You know, the average Australian doesn't really have to do

332
00:17:37,054 --> 00:17:40,494
Speaker 3: with those things. So we were, you know, all trying

333
00:17:40,534 --> 00:17:42,614
Speaker 3: to work out how to do that. And of course

334
00:17:42,694 --> 00:17:45,694
Speaker 3: you must remember, apart from the staff, we were all

335
00:17:45,774 --> 00:17:51,774
Speaker 3: random strangers, so it was just that really bizarre sort

336
00:17:51,774 --> 00:17:54,694
Speaker 3: of circumstance. So we're all sort of listening, trying to

337
00:17:54,734 --> 00:17:58,414
Speaker 3: hear what he's saying, doing what he's telling us. You know,

338
00:17:58,774 --> 00:18:00,334
Speaker 3: I'm thinking, oh, he's going to line us up and

339
00:18:00,334 --> 00:18:03,134
Speaker 3: shoot us in my head. But of course, like obviously

340
00:18:03,174 --> 00:18:05,654
Speaker 3: he didn't do that, so he was quickly he started

341
00:18:05,694 --> 00:18:07,374
Speaker 3: to say things like keep your eyes closed, so it

342
00:18:07,414 --> 00:18:11,574
Speaker 3: was very controlling of everything. Close your eyes, open your eyes,

343
00:18:12,614 --> 00:18:15,734
Speaker 3: you stand here, you stand there. He quickly arranged people

344
00:18:15,814 --> 00:18:18,254
Speaker 3: around the room, had people stand up on the bench

345
00:18:18,334 --> 00:18:21,134
Speaker 3: seat and there in the cafe so that they could

346
00:18:21,134 --> 00:18:24,174
Speaker 3: be seen out the big windows, and people you know,

347
00:18:24,214 --> 00:18:27,374
Speaker 3: across the front. So it was pretty full on and

348
00:18:27,454 --> 00:18:31,454
Speaker 3: intense and the immediate sort of starting and then we waited.

349
00:18:31,974 --> 00:18:34,694
Speaker 1: Did you get the chance to talk amongst Jesselle. No,

350
00:18:34,854 --> 00:18:36,734
Speaker 1: he was very controlling of all of that for the

351
00:18:36,774 --> 00:18:37,294
Speaker 1: whole day.

352
00:18:37,494 --> 00:18:41,054
Speaker 3: Yes, so that kind of laxed a little when we

353
00:18:41,494 --> 00:18:43,974
Speaker 3: all got with the program, and that we all realized

354
00:18:44,014 --> 00:18:49,054
Speaker 3: that what he wanted was media attention, so therefore we

355
00:18:49,374 --> 00:18:53,974
Speaker 3: needed to be the ones to get that attention for him.

356
00:18:54,014 --> 00:18:58,254
Speaker 3: So we're all just then scrambling, you know. Initially at

357
00:18:58,254 --> 00:19:02,494
Speaker 3: one stage he had me ring triple O and he

358
00:19:02,574 --> 00:19:06,334
Speaker 3: was happy with his with the phone call and he said, oh,

359
00:19:06,414 --> 00:19:09,254
Speaker 3: you can be my secretary, I mean, like seriously. And

360
00:19:09,574 --> 00:19:13,294
Speaker 3: then later on from that he told me to find

361
00:19:13,374 --> 00:19:18,734
Speaker 3: ABC Radio on the phone. Well, so technically challenged. Not

362
00:19:18,854 --> 00:19:21,574
Speaker 3: the best with the phone at the you know, most times,

363
00:19:21,574 --> 00:19:24,374
Speaker 3: but in particular because I had forgotten my own phone

364
00:19:24,374 --> 00:19:27,094
Speaker 3: that day and so it was my mother's phone that

365
00:19:27,294 --> 00:19:30,614
Speaker 3: was on the table, and so I'm trying to scramble

366
00:19:30,654 --> 00:19:33,454
Speaker 3: and find ABC Radio on the phone, and I found

367
00:19:33,534 --> 00:19:35,854
Speaker 3: ABC Radio book Club, but he wasn't interested in the

368
00:19:35,854 --> 00:19:39,454
Speaker 3: book club. So you know, in that moment, young Jared

369
00:19:39,534 --> 00:19:42,054
Speaker 3: quickly said, I'll do it, hand me the phone. So

370
00:19:42,374 --> 00:19:44,774
Speaker 3: when I handed over the phone to Jared, it was

371
00:19:44,854 --> 00:19:49,094
Speaker 3: like everything shifted and Jared very much become the lead

372
00:19:49,294 --> 00:19:53,494
Speaker 3: in the room. And so he quickly found radio on

373
00:19:53,534 --> 00:19:55,574
Speaker 3: the phone and did all that kind of thing, and

374
00:19:55,654 --> 00:19:59,894
Speaker 3: so the attention shifted very much to Jared, and Jared

375
00:19:59,974 --> 00:20:04,174
Speaker 3: become in a way like the main man for the gunman.

376
00:20:04,614 --> 00:20:06,614
Speaker 3: So it was really interesting, that dynamic, and I was

377
00:20:06,654 --> 00:20:09,214
Speaker 3: so grateful because you know, like technology is not really

378
00:20:09,254 --> 00:20:10,334
Speaker 3: my friend and the pressure.

379
00:20:10,534 --> 00:20:11,854
Speaker 1: So Jared worked there.

380
00:20:11,894 --> 00:20:15,694
Speaker 3: Yes, Jared young. Jared was one of the young workers.

381
00:20:15,814 --> 00:20:18,494
Speaker 3: He was nineteen at the time. Many of them were

382
00:20:18,534 --> 00:20:21,694
Speaker 3: only young, as was Fiona marsha Do only nineteen, so

383
00:20:21,934 --> 00:20:26,534
Speaker 3: you know, yeah, they're just well I wouldn't like me

384
00:20:26,574 --> 00:20:28,174
Speaker 3: to say it, but they're just babies, you know what

385
00:20:28,174 --> 00:20:28,494
Speaker 3: I mean.

386
00:20:28,734 --> 00:20:30,294
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you need a millennial to.

387
00:20:30,294 --> 00:20:32,334
Speaker 3: Get that job. Yeah, that's right. So they were there.

388
00:20:33,534 --> 00:20:35,814
Speaker 1: Could you communicate to each other with your eyes?

389
00:20:36,934 --> 00:20:39,654
Speaker 3: Well, obviously we were, but he was onto that. He

390
00:20:39,814 --> 00:20:42,494
Speaker 3: was quickly onto that, and he was saying, who's looking

391
00:20:42,494 --> 00:20:45,294
Speaker 3: at who? And certainly because once he realized that, you know,

392
00:20:45,414 --> 00:20:48,894
Speaker 3: Robin was my mother was totally separating us and no

393
00:20:49,454 --> 00:20:51,854
Speaker 3: talking with your eyes and if you thought someone was

394
00:20:51,854 --> 00:20:54,014
Speaker 3: looking too long at someone else. He was what are

395
00:20:54,014 --> 00:20:57,214
Speaker 3: you doing? You know, So he was certainly definitely in

396
00:20:57,254 --> 00:20:59,854
Speaker 3: the early stages, he was definitely onto all of that

397
00:20:59,974 --> 00:21:00,454
Speaker 3: kind of thing.

398
00:21:01,054 --> 00:21:04,454
Speaker 1: The people then that escaped in little groups, how did

399
00:21:04,454 --> 00:21:05,414
Speaker 1: they coordinate that?

400
00:21:06,534 --> 00:21:10,854
Speaker 3: You know? I think that they were just quick And

401
00:21:10,214 --> 00:21:15,654
Speaker 3: the three men who escaped, initially they were sitting at

402
00:21:15,694 --> 00:21:19,174
Speaker 3: the front, they were lined up the front together on

403
00:21:19,454 --> 00:21:22,734
Speaker 3: individual seats, and so they obviously were able to have

404
00:21:22,774 --> 00:21:27,254
Speaker 3: little communications because their backs were to the inside of

405
00:21:27,254 --> 00:21:29,894
Speaker 3: the cafe and they were facing out near the front door.

406
00:21:30,094 --> 00:21:32,774
Speaker 3: So they're obviously able to have little communications together. And

407
00:21:32,814 --> 00:21:35,414
Speaker 3: they quickly organized how they're going to do it, and

408
00:21:35,454 --> 00:21:37,774
Speaker 3: they just did it. I mean, like how brave were they?

409
00:21:38,254 --> 00:21:42,334
Speaker 1: And so yeah, if you couldn't, I mean, you had

410
00:21:42,334 --> 00:21:45,294
Speaker 1: a lot of time to feel in your mind, did

411
00:21:45,334 --> 00:21:47,974
Speaker 1: you kind of try to work out who was who

412
00:21:48,134 --> 00:21:51,374
Speaker 1: and what their story was about.

413
00:21:51,814 --> 00:21:54,414
Speaker 3: We were all in our little groups, and so he

414
00:21:54,534 --> 00:21:59,494
Speaker 3: separated us out from our groups really and put everybody everywhere.

415
00:22:00,014 --> 00:22:04,214
Speaker 3: So that kind of like stifled communication between us. But

416
00:22:04,294 --> 00:22:07,374
Speaker 3: as the day went on, and also because we were

417
00:22:07,414 --> 00:22:08,734
Speaker 3: having toilet breaks.

418
00:22:08,694 --> 00:22:10,334
Speaker 1: How did that work? I was going to ask about

419
00:22:10,334 --> 00:22:10,814
Speaker 1: the toilet.

420
00:22:11,134 --> 00:22:14,054
Speaker 3: Well, so thank goodness, you know, really, I mean one

421
00:22:14,054 --> 00:22:19,974
Speaker 3: could almost say inverted commas. That was a kindness that

422
00:22:20,014 --> 00:22:23,574
Speaker 3: worked because he just decided that we needed to and

423
00:22:23,614 --> 00:22:27,694
Speaker 3: I think really because it was obvious that because he

424
00:22:27,774 --> 00:22:31,134
Speaker 3: had kicked away my walking stick from me to start with,

425
00:22:31,654 --> 00:22:33,294
Speaker 3: and when it was time to go to the bathroom,

426
00:22:33,334 --> 00:22:34,774
Speaker 3: I said, can I have my walking stick?

427
00:22:34,854 --> 00:22:35,054
Speaker 4: No?

428
00:22:35,054 --> 00:22:39,174
Speaker 3: No, And then he said, Fiona, you take Louisa, because

429
00:22:39,214 --> 00:22:41,614
Speaker 3: he worked out our names Louisa to the bathroom. So

430
00:22:41,654 --> 00:22:44,494
Speaker 3: Fiona took me to the bathroom, and then we started

431
00:22:44,494 --> 00:22:48,894
Speaker 3: this whole routine of lint workers taking us to the bathroom,

432
00:22:48,894 --> 00:22:52,814
Speaker 3: predominantly Fiona or Jared, and so we were able to

433
00:22:52,854 --> 00:22:55,694
Speaker 3: communicate in that way as well. So they were kind

434
00:22:55,734 --> 00:22:59,734
Speaker 3: of like a conduit between us when we're going to it.

435
00:22:59,694 --> 00:23:00,894
Speaker 1: Would you whisper to them?

436
00:23:01,134 --> 00:23:02,934
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well the bathroom was you know, a little bit

437
00:23:02,934 --> 00:23:05,534
Speaker 3: of a distance, so there was a degree of privacy

438
00:23:05,614 --> 00:23:10,574
Speaker 3: there if you like. Gosh, so weird, but yeah, that's

439
00:23:10,574 --> 00:23:12,254
Speaker 3: how we were kind of like talking to each other.

440
00:23:12,254 --> 00:23:14,774
Speaker 3: But we didn't have any kind of grand plan for

441
00:23:15,014 --> 00:23:18,174
Speaker 3: escape or anything like that. We were just kind of like,

442
00:23:18,254 --> 00:23:21,174
Speaker 3: I think, going to the bathroom and young Fiona, Ma,

443
00:23:22,054 --> 00:23:24,934
Speaker 3: my goodness, he told us all to give over our phones.

444
00:23:25,094 --> 00:23:27,854
Speaker 3: Well she kept hers in her pocket, brave as that

445
00:23:27,934 --> 00:23:30,854
Speaker 3: little girl. And you know, so when we got down

446
00:23:30,854 --> 00:23:32,614
Speaker 3: to the bathroom, she says, I've got my phone. Do

447
00:23:32,614 --> 00:23:33,494
Speaker 3: you want to ring anyone?

448
00:23:34,334 --> 00:23:34,614
Speaker 1: You know?

449
00:23:34,734 --> 00:23:37,894
Speaker 3: But I mean, who remembers anybody's phone number these days?

450
00:23:38,334 --> 00:23:40,014
Speaker 3: So I'm like, I'd love to, but I haven't got

451
00:23:40,094 --> 00:23:44,414
Speaker 3: clue anybody's number. So yeah, there you go, and that's

452
00:23:44,454 --> 00:23:45,214
Speaker 3: how the day went.

453
00:23:53,094 --> 00:23:57,214
Speaker 1: I was also told that people became agitated at different times,

454
00:23:57,494 --> 00:24:03,014
Speaker 1: and around the time of school pickup, Katrina became quite agitated,

455
00:24:03,334 --> 00:24:04,574
Speaker 1: is that true?

456
00:24:05,774 --> 00:24:09,014
Speaker 3: Aware? Like she was aware, and you know, different ones

457
00:24:09,054 --> 00:24:11,894
Speaker 3: with children were aware of their children, would mention their children,

458
00:24:12,334 --> 00:24:14,694
Speaker 3: you know, just different little things. I want to, you know,

459
00:24:14,734 --> 00:24:17,414
Speaker 3: and try and negotiate a bit with you know, the gunment.

460
00:24:17,414 --> 00:24:19,294
Speaker 3: There was just constant talk about who was going to

461
00:24:19,294 --> 00:24:21,014
Speaker 3: get out and who was going to stay, you know,

462
00:24:21,054 --> 00:24:23,374
Speaker 3: and all that kind of thing. So yes, of course

463
00:24:23,374 --> 00:24:26,814
Speaker 3: there was that whole awareness of people and their children,

464
00:24:26,974 --> 00:24:29,734
Speaker 3: and the stress of all of that, you know, just

465
00:24:30,414 --> 00:24:31,574
Speaker 3: made the whole thing worse.

466
00:24:31,654 --> 00:24:35,414
Speaker 1: I think did anything sway him? I mean, you were

467
00:24:36,894 --> 00:24:39,894
Speaker 1: you have MS, and you had a cane, and then

468
00:24:41,374 --> 00:24:44,814
Speaker 1: you know, people had children, Julie was pregnant. There were

469
00:24:44,854 --> 00:24:48,254
Speaker 1: all sorts of different people with different reasons to be

470
00:24:48,374 --> 00:24:52,854
Speaker 1: allowed to go. Was everyone sort of looking for what

471
00:24:52,934 --> 00:24:56,014
Speaker 1: his vulnerabilities might be or what his kindnesses might be?

472
00:24:56,214 --> 00:24:59,494
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely. You know, there was a lot of discussion.

473
00:24:59,534 --> 00:25:02,054
Speaker 3: At one stage, he said that he would release a

474
00:25:02,094 --> 00:25:06,174
Speaker 3: hostage and which hostage would he release. So of course,

475
00:25:06,534 --> 00:25:09,054
Speaker 3: you know, naturally you would think in a circumstance like that,

476
00:25:09,534 --> 00:25:12,294
Speaker 3: everyone might be saying me me, pick me, putting up

477
00:25:12,294 --> 00:25:14,374
Speaker 3: the hands, saying I'll go, you know, let me release me.

478
00:25:14,694 --> 00:25:19,694
Speaker 3: But it wasn't like that. Actually, everyone was saying things like, well,

479
00:25:19,734 --> 00:25:23,574
Speaker 3: you should release Robin and Louisa because Robin's old, right,

480
00:25:24,334 --> 00:25:27,694
Speaker 3: and we're saying no, no, you should release Julie because Julie's pregnant,

481
00:25:28,014 --> 00:25:30,854
Speaker 3: or Harriet who was pregnant at the time, And then

482
00:25:30,934 --> 00:25:32,854
Speaker 3: you know, he was saying, but who's going to be

483
00:25:32,894 --> 00:25:36,334
Speaker 3: my best spokesperson when they get out, and so you know,

484
00:25:36,814 --> 00:25:39,054
Speaker 3: then we're saying, well, like Jared, you know, he'd be

485
00:25:39,054 --> 00:25:41,094
Speaker 3: really good at that. So there was all those kind

486
00:25:41,134 --> 00:25:43,974
Speaker 3: of conversations each of us trying to say, you know,

487
00:25:44,654 --> 00:25:46,894
Speaker 3: release this one or that one, and particularly we're I

488
00:25:46,894 --> 00:25:49,734
Speaker 3: think we're all trying really to get the pregnant girls

489
00:25:49,734 --> 00:25:52,454
Speaker 3: out if we possibly could. But at the same time

490
00:25:52,494 --> 00:25:55,934
Speaker 3: it was obviously his choice. He was just messing with us, maybe,

491
00:25:56,174 --> 00:25:57,614
Speaker 3: you know. But there was a lot of coming and

492
00:25:57,614 --> 00:26:00,414
Speaker 3: going and discussion, and of course no one was released

493
00:26:00,414 --> 00:26:04,014
Speaker 3: by him in the end, because he wanted the media attention.

494
00:26:04,694 --> 00:26:07,574
Speaker 3: We wanted to be able to get a direct connection

495
00:26:07,694 --> 00:26:11,334
Speaker 3: to a media outlet so that he could say I'm

496
00:26:11,374 --> 00:26:14,934
Speaker 3: being so good and so kind by releasing somebody, and

497
00:26:14,974 --> 00:26:18,414
Speaker 3: he wanted to get the credit for that rather than oh,

498
00:26:18,734 --> 00:26:21,014
Speaker 3: he said, the media could just say they've escaped if

499
00:26:21,054 --> 00:26:25,694
Speaker 3: I don't get direct live coverage. So you know, that

500
00:26:25,814 --> 00:26:29,574
Speaker 3: whole idea of somebody being released. Eventually, when we realized

501
00:26:29,614 --> 00:26:34,134
Speaker 3: we had exhausted all opportunity for the media, it was

502
00:26:34,214 --> 00:26:37,814
Speaker 3: like he said, why should I bother because I won't

503
00:26:37,814 --> 00:26:41,254
Speaker 3: get the credit for it. The insanity of it.

504
00:26:41,894 --> 00:26:43,054
Speaker 1: Tell me about Toy.

505
00:26:44,614 --> 00:26:50,134
Speaker 3: Tory. Tory was the manager of the cafe, and unlike

506
00:26:50,254 --> 00:26:54,534
Speaker 3: everybody else, he referred to to Toy as the manager,

507
00:26:55,214 --> 00:26:59,974
Speaker 3: which of course he was the manager. And you know

508
00:27:00,294 --> 00:27:04,854
Speaker 3: this man who's still with me every day. You know.

509
00:27:06,214 --> 00:27:10,694
Speaker 3: He was very much highly regarded by his staff. They

510
00:27:10,734 --> 00:27:14,254
Speaker 3: really loved him, you know. But he on the day

511
00:27:17,734 --> 00:27:20,494
Speaker 3: he went on, he was aware that my mother was

512
00:27:20,534 --> 00:27:23,894
Speaker 3: becoming more and more agitated, which she was. She was

513
00:27:24,134 --> 00:27:28,734
Speaker 3: back chatting the gunman and I was she oh, and

514
00:27:28,774 --> 00:27:31,694
Speaker 3: I was becoming more and more anxious. What was she doing, Robert, Well,

515
00:27:31,734 --> 00:27:36,774
Speaker 3: she was, oh, dear mate, So she was well. At

516
00:27:36,774 --> 00:27:39,814
Speaker 3: one stage she stood up and hands on hips and said,

517
00:27:40,294 --> 00:27:42,014
Speaker 3: I want to go to the bathroom and my daughter

518
00:27:42,054 --> 00:27:45,854
Speaker 3: needs her medication. Oh, mom, just keep everything on the

519
00:27:45,894 --> 00:27:48,814
Speaker 3: down low. You know. I'm trying to mom, you know.

520
00:27:48,974 --> 00:27:50,814
Speaker 3: And you know when you hear your mother's angry voice.

521
00:27:50,854 --> 00:27:52,934
Speaker 3: I could hear it coming. I'm thinking, oh, man, are

522
00:27:52,974 --> 00:27:56,574
Speaker 3: you in trouble? Anyway, she just had that moment, and

523
00:27:57,934 --> 00:27:59,934
Speaker 3: so he sends her off to the bathroom with Fionna,

524
00:27:59,974 --> 00:28:02,574
Speaker 3: and then he wants to know all about my mss.

525
00:28:02,654 --> 00:28:04,854
Speaker 3: What's a mess? So yeah, so he calls me over

526
00:28:04,894 --> 00:28:07,894
Speaker 3: sitting next to him, and he gives me twenty questions

527
00:28:07,894 --> 00:28:09,774
Speaker 3: about what's the way you got a mess, how do

528
00:28:09,774 --> 00:28:10,534
Speaker 3: you get it?

529
00:28:10,214 --> 00:28:11,414
Speaker 4: What to do?

530
00:28:11,574 --> 00:28:15,454
Speaker 3: And I'm trying to explain very soundly and reasonably the

531
00:28:15,494 --> 00:28:16,814
Speaker 3: intricacies of MS.

532
00:28:16,814 --> 00:28:19,454
Speaker 1: And I'm thinking, gosh, you know, that's quite a human moment.

533
00:28:20,174 --> 00:28:23,174
Speaker 1: It's acfusing to you, Like I imagine that's confusing because he

534
00:28:23,294 --> 00:28:26,294
Speaker 1: was showing interest and yeah, and.

535
00:28:26,254 --> 00:28:28,974
Speaker 3: This is the thing about this man, right, And this

536
00:28:29,054 --> 00:28:31,014
Speaker 3: is the thing that I keep coming back to and

537
00:28:31,054 --> 00:28:33,694
Speaker 3: I keep talking about, and that is the fact that

538
00:28:34,334 --> 00:28:37,574
Speaker 3: he was a bad man doing a bad thing. What

539
00:28:37,654 --> 00:28:42,894
Speaker 3: he was doing was just so wrong and violent, violent

540
00:28:42,974 --> 00:28:44,974
Speaker 3: act to hold somebody against the will with a gun.

541
00:28:45,334 --> 00:28:48,134
Speaker 3: But at the same time, there were flashes of his

542
00:28:48,334 --> 00:28:52,454
Speaker 3: kindness and his humanity, So we kind of go, what

543
00:28:52,694 --> 00:28:56,374
Speaker 3: is that? Who is that? This duplicitous, double minded man.

544
00:28:56,774 --> 00:28:58,894
Speaker 3: Here he is letting us have toilet brakes and later

545
00:28:58,974 --> 00:29:02,774
Speaker 3: on cups of tea and food and uh, you.

546
00:29:02,734 --> 00:29:04,734
Speaker 1: Know water, inquiring about your health.

547
00:29:04,854 --> 00:29:09,094
Speaker 3: I know exactly exactly, and he was sincerely interested. I'm

548
00:29:09,134 --> 00:29:11,494
Speaker 3: sure of there was no need for him to kind

549
00:29:11,534 --> 00:29:13,654
Speaker 3: of like do a little deviation into his plan to

550
00:29:13,694 --> 00:29:16,374
Speaker 3: have a chat about my MS. And then you know,

551
00:29:16,454 --> 00:29:18,614
Speaker 3: he's very interested in it. And then he says to me,

552
00:29:19,134 --> 00:29:21,614
Speaker 3: at any time, Louisa, you want to have your medication,

553
00:29:22,174 --> 00:29:23,934
Speaker 3: you just do it. You don't have to ask me.

554
00:29:24,254 --> 00:29:26,974
Speaker 3: I thank you, thank you brother, you know. But so

555
00:29:27,214 --> 00:29:31,894
Speaker 3: here we go. Here's this man explain, you know, expressing

556
00:29:31,934 --> 00:29:34,894
Speaker 3: two different parts of his personality, and you think, what

557
00:29:35,134 --> 00:29:37,694
Speaker 3: is that? Double minded, duplicit us And you sort of

558
00:29:37,694 --> 00:29:41,414
Speaker 3: think to yourself, well, that's that man who assaults his wife,

559
00:29:41,574 --> 00:29:43,334
Speaker 3: bashes it to a pulp, and then at the same

560
00:29:43,374 --> 00:29:46,334
Speaker 3: time tells her he loves her. So, you know, we

561
00:29:46,414 --> 00:29:49,854
Speaker 3: think that we cannot imagine what a terrorist is like,

562
00:29:50,454 --> 00:29:54,214
Speaker 3: but we experience in our ordinary, everyday life that kind

563
00:29:54,294 --> 00:29:57,494
Speaker 3: of man or that kind of person. So it's say,

564
00:29:58,534 --> 00:30:01,254
Speaker 3: and I say this because whilst ever we throw our

565
00:30:01,294 --> 00:30:04,094
Speaker 3: hands in the air and say he's not us, we're

566
00:30:04,094 --> 00:30:07,014
Speaker 3: not that he's a madman. Yeah, that's right, he's a madman.

567
00:30:07,054 --> 00:30:09,694
Speaker 3: He's a lunatic, he's crazy. Then what we're doing doing

568
00:30:09,854 --> 00:30:14,574
Speaker 3: is actually surrendering our opportunity to understand what this is

569
00:30:14,614 --> 00:30:18,214
Speaker 3: all about. How does the violent mind really work? And

570
00:30:18,254 --> 00:30:20,214
Speaker 3: so for me personally, I kind of have been on

571
00:30:20,254 --> 00:30:22,974
Speaker 3: a little bit of a crusade in saying we have

572
00:30:23,134 --> 00:30:27,694
Speaker 3: to grab this circumstance and actually get beyond our fear

573
00:30:28,174 --> 00:30:30,854
Speaker 3: and start to do some real research to come to

574
00:30:30,934 --> 00:30:34,094
Speaker 3: real understanding, because it's only in that that we're going

575
00:30:34,174 --> 00:30:36,814
Speaker 3: to undo what this thing is. And so you know,

576
00:30:37,654 --> 00:30:41,334
Speaker 3: there we were in that circumstance with him all those hours,

577
00:30:42,094 --> 00:30:45,934
Speaker 3: and this was the reality of him, no different to

578
00:30:46,014 --> 00:30:46,854
Speaker 3: us in many ways.

579
00:30:48,134 --> 00:30:52,734
Speaker 1: Do you now see him as crazy? Mentally ill? Evil?

580
00:30:54,454 --> 00:30:56,534
Speaker 1: How do you see him?

581
00:30:59,494 --> 00:31:04,654
Speaker 3: All of those words are too easy. Actually, we need

582
00:31:04,774 --> 00:31:08,574
Speaker 3: a little bit more of nuanced kind of understanding of him.

583
00:31:08,854 --> 00:31:12,614
Speaker 3: And I see him as a very flawed human being

584
00:31:13,254 --> 00:31:18,694
Speaker 3: whose primary motivator was his own self delusion and his

585
00:31:20,894 --> 00:31:26,054
Speaker 3: narcissistic frame of obviously his existence, because you know, there's

586
00:31:26,054 --> 00:31:28,814
Speaker 3: lots of other things in this man's history. I mean,

587
00:31:29,014 --> 00:31:31,694
Speaker 3: at the inquest, we found out that he had forty

588
00:31:31,774 --> 00:31:36,534
Speaker 3: eight separate individual sexual assault charges against him, and of

589
00:31:36,574 --> 00:31:38,774
Speaker 3: course there was his involvement in the death of his

590
00:31:39,534 --> 00:31:44,454
Speaker 3: ex wife, which was horrendous, And so you know, the

591
00:31:44,454 --> 00:31:49,014
Speaker 3: man was one could very easily call him evil, but

592
00:31:49,054 --> 00:31:52,294
Speaker 3: that was not the only cloak that he wore. So

593
00:31:52,334 --> 00:31:55,374
Speaker 3: we have to get in and nut it out to

594
00:31:55,414 --> 00:32:01,614
Speaker 3: see what he really is. You know, yes, even madmen

595
00:32:01,894 --> 00:32:05,774
Speaker 3: can be sane, and to sort of box and die

596
00:32:05,774 --> 00:32:10,454
Speaker 3: somebody into a little hole like that too too simple.

597
00:32:11,134 --> 00:32:13,374
Speaker 3: And of no value to us now.

598
00:32:14,214 --> 00:32:17,534
Speaker 1: So there he was asked inquiring about your mss. Your

599
00:32:17,574 --> 00:32:20,534
Speaker 1: mama demanded to be taken to the bathroom. And where

600
00:32:20,574 --> 00:32:21,694
Speaker 1: was Tory through all of this.

601
00:32:21,894 --> 00:32:24,814
Speaker 3: Well, Tory he had placed mostly the women around him

602
00:32:24,854 --> 00:32:28,134
Speaker 3: close and all the men at a bit of a distance.

603
00:32:28,734 --> 00:32:31,574
Speaker 1: So as so to use the women as human shields

604
00:32:31,574 --> 00:32:33,694
Speaker 1: because he felt that there was less likely to be

605
00:32:33,854 --> 00:32:35,134
Speaker 1: someone firing through the window.

606
00:32:35,294 --> 00:32:38,774
Speaker 3: Yeah, well you know that. And also women he was assuming, obviously,

607
00:32:39,254 --> 00:32:41,094
Speaker 3: and obviously the way he's dealt with women, he was

608
00:32:41,094 --> 00:32:44,374
Speaker 3: probably feeling more confident that he could keep control of us.

609
00:32:44,694 --> 00:32:48,094
Speaker 3: So anyway, Mum and had you know, a few bit

610
00:32:48,174 --> 00:32:50,934
Speaker 3: of backchat towards him. And then as a day went on,

611
00:32:50,934 --> 00:32:53,294
Speaker 3: a little bit later, Tory had gone for bathroom break

612
00:32:53,534 --> 00:32:55,934
Speaker 3: and he came back. And normally we came back and

613
00:32:55,974 --> 00:32:59,254
Speaker 3: sat back in normal seats where we were last seated,

614
00:33:00,054 --> 00:33:03,254
Speaker 3: but Tory actually come back and positioned himself sitting right

615
00:33:03,294 --> 00:33:07,814
Speaker 3: next to Mum. And what happened then was that they

616
00:33:07,854 --> 00:33:10,854
Speaker 3: were sitting on the sit it on the bench seat

617
00:33:10,854 --> 00:33:12,694
Speaker 3: with a table in front of them, and I was

618
00:33:12,734 --> 00:33:17,654
Speaker 3: on an individual seat separated slightly from them. But where

619
00:33:17,654 --> 00:33:22,454
Speaker 3: he positioned himself next to Mom. I could hear them

620
00:33:22,534 --> 00:33:26,254
Speaker 3: just quietly whispering, having little jokes. I could hear little giggles,

621
00:33:26,934 --> 00:33:30,574
Speaker 3: and when I had got another bathroom break myself come back,

622
00:33:30,854 --> 00:33:34,374
Speaker 3: I could see them holding hands under the table. So

623
00:33:34,454 --> 00:33:39,094
Speaker 3: Tory had used that as an opportunity to sit next

624
00:33:39,174 --> 00:33:42,294
Speaker 3: and position himself next to my mother to calm her.

625
00:33:43,094 --> 00:33:46,014
Speaker 3: And I could see that that worked because Mum was

626
00:33:46,494 --> 00:33:50,094
Speaker 3: far better because it was one stage when the gunman

627
00:33:50,174 --> 00:33:54,734
Speaker 3: actually said to me, Louisa, keep your mother quiet, and

628
00:33:54,774 --> 00:33:56,654
Speaker 3: in the moment, I thought, you're crazy. How am I

629
00:33:56,694 --> 00:33:58,654
Speaker 3: going to do that? Keep my mother quiet?

630
00:33:58,854 --> 00:33:59,494
Speaker 1: Ask for a daughter?

631
00:33:59,574 --> 00:34:01,894
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, And so you know, like here, I am

632
00:34:01,934 --> 00:34:04,094
Speaker 3: a growing up. But I had that moment where I

633
00:34:04,094 --> 00:34:06,934
Speaker 3: had to say to Mum, you know, you're an old lady,

634
00:34:07,414 --> 00:34:09,854
Speaker 3: just keep quiet. And I could see her looking at me,

635
00:34:09,894 --> 00:34:12,094
Speaker 3: and I'm thinking, you know, she's kind of like wait

636
00:34:12,214 --> 00:34:13,934
Speaker 3: till you get hime and you're in big trouble kind

637
00:34:13,934 --> 00:34:15,734
Speaker 3: of thing, and I'm just sort of thinking we've got it.

638
00:34:15,774 --> 00:34:17,894
Speaker 3: But I knew that we just had to keep her calm.

639
00:34:18,294 --> 00:34:21,654
Speaker 3: And Tory obviously read that too, because he come back

640
00:34:21,654 --> 00:34:24,534
Speaker 3: after that, and like I said, he positioned himself next

641
00:34:24,574 --> 00:34:30,574
Speaker 3: to her. And of course at the end, at the end,

642
00:34:30,574 --> 00:34:35,454
Speaker 3: when everyone else escaped and I had had my eyes closed,

643
00:34:35,494 --> 00:34:38,694
Speaker 3: I was in this intense place of prayer, actually, and

644
00:34:39,054 --> 00:34:41,534
Speaker 3: then I'd heard this big bang and I'd opened my

645
00:34:41,574 --> 00:34:45,254
Speaker 3: eyes and all of the others that escaped, all the

646
00:34:45,294 --> 00:34:47,854
Speaker 3: other hostages, and I went, all, right, this is it.

647
00:34:47,934 --> 00:34:50,054
Speaker 3: We're going. So I stood up and I started to

648
00:34:50,094 --> 00:34:55,414
Speaker 3: go towards the door, but Mum and Tory were not moving,

649
00:34:56,094 --> 00:34:58,374
Speaker 3: and I was trying to catch their eye, kept turning around,

650
00:34:58,454 --> 00:35:00,134
Speaker 3: you know, not wanting to speak because I didn't know

651
00:35:00,134 --> 00:35:02,574
Speaker 3: where the gunman was, didn't know what was happening with him.

652
00:35:03,734 --> 00:35:06,174
Speaker 3: So I'm kind of trying to indicate to them, come come,

653
00:35:06,214 --> 00:35:08,854
Speaker 3: you know, we're right at the end now, and I'm

654
00:35:08,894 --> 00:35:11,294
Speaker 3: trying to get there, but they weren't moving. I'm thinking,

655
00:35:11,574 --> 00:35:14,374
Speaker 3: why isn't Toy moving, Why isn't Mum moving. They're just

656
00:35:14,534 --> 00:35:17,734
Speaker 3: not shifting, And so in that moment, I just thought, well,

657
00:35:17,734 --> 00:35:19,814
Speaker 3: I can't leave my mother. So I lay down on

658
00:35:19,814 --> 00:35:21,734
Speaker 3: the floor and thought, oh, you know, gum, and I'll

659
00:35:21,814 --> 00:35:25,974
Speaker 3: kill me. But and then that situation went on. But

660
00:35:26,774 --> 00:35:34,854
Speaker 3: later after, after twelve months, later, after the first anniversary,

661
00:35:35,774 --> 00:35:37,654
Speaker 3: Mom and I were having a quiet moment at home

662
00:35:39,054 --> 00:35:42,014
Speaker 3: and I said to her, Mom, do you remember at

663
00:35:42,054 --> 00:35:45,374
Speaker 3: the end, and I'd got up and was going towards

664
00:35:45,414 --> 00:35:48,174
Speaker 3: the door. I said to her, why didn't you and

665
00:35:48,254 --> 00:35:53,134
Speaker 3: Tory run? Because I could never understand why Tori didn't run.

666
00:35:53,774 --> 00:35:57,014
Speaker 3: And my mom said to me, oh, well, I was

667
00:35:57,014 --> 00:35:59,574
Speaker 3: saying to Toy, you know, you go, you go, and

668
00:35:59,614 --> 00:36:02,014
Speaker 3: she's making this motion. She was like she was elbowing

669
00:36:02,054 --> 00:36:04,094
Speaker 3: him in the side, saying, you go to it, you go,

670
00:36:04,614 --> 00:36:08,294
Speaker 3: and he said to her, no, I'll stay, I'll stay

671
00:36:08,294 --> 00:36:12,614
Speaker 3: with you. So in that moment, twelve months after the event,

672
00:36:13,454 --> 00:36:17,414
Speaker 3: I suddenly realized that Tory Johnson had made a deliberate

673
00:36:17,534 --> 00:36:21,454
Speaker 3: choice to stay, to stay and look after my mother,

674
00:36:22,334 --> 00:36:28,654
Speaker 3: which you know is for our whole family. That is profound,

675
00:36:29,494 --> 00:36:34,734
Speaker 3: and I understand the grief that his family must feel

676
00:36:35,734 --> 00:36:38,654
Speaker 3: that his brave heart made that choice in that moment,

677
00:36:40,254 --> 00:36:43,614
Speaker 3: because if he had not, he would not have been

678
00:36:43,654 --> 00:36:47,214
Speaker 3: there to be the one who was killed. So, you know,

679
00:36:47,294 --> 00:36:54,054
Speaker 3: it's just, you know, it's hard, and I feel for

680
00:36:54,174 --> 00:36:57,574
Speaker 3: his family, But I think to myself, what an amazing

681
00:36:58,214 --> 00:37:03,454
Speaker 3: brave young man. And you know, his parents, his mother

682
00:37:03,574 --> 00:37:09,494
Speaker 3: and of course his partner Thomas. His bravery doesn't replace

683
00:37:09,734 --> 00:37:14,254
Speaker 3: him for them. But you know, our family, we are

684
00:37:14,334 --> 00:37:19,134
Speaker 3: forever grateful because in lots of ways, you know, that

685
00:37:19,254 --> 00:37:21,614
Speaker 3: gave us three and a half more years with our

686
00:37:21,654 --> 00:37:28,254
Speaker 3: mother and m It's you know, it's in my heart.

687
00:37:30,574 --> 00:37:34,054
Speaker 1: Why do you think that the gunman chose Tori Because

688
00:37:34,054 --> 00:37:38,134
Speaker 1: Tory was the last man in the cafe and he

689
00:37:38,374 --> 00:37:39,894
Speaker 1: was the final authority figure.

690
00:37:40,894 --> 00:37:44,414
Speaker 3: So he called Tory to. You know, he positioned Mum

691
00:37:44,454 --> 00:37:47,614
Speaker 3: and I either side of him and told us to

692
00:37:47,654 --> 00:37:49,574
Speaker 3: keep our eyes closed and we wouldn't get hurt. How

693
00:37:49,614 --> 00:37:51,814
Speaker 3: many ridiculous really is if you do that? But then

694
00:37:51,854 --> 00:37:52,734
Speaker 3: he called Tory over.

695
00:37:53,014 --> 00:37:55,494
Speaker 1: Do you mean as if you'd keep your eyes? So

696
00:37:55,534 --> 00:37:56,814
Speaker 1: you didn't keep your eyes?

697
00:37:56,534 --> 00:37:59,294
Speaker 3: No, it's dark in the cafe and we're either side

698
00:37:59,294 --> 00:38:01,654
Speaker 3: of him, Mumm and I. And then he called Tori

699
00:38:01,734 --> 00:38:04,494
Speaker 3: over and said you manager kneel on the floor and

700
00:38:04,494 --> 00:38:05,854
Speaker 3: put your hands on your hand. And it was just

701
00:38:06,614 --> 00:38:08,134
Speaker 3: that moment of oh my god.

702
00:38:08,374 --> 00:38:11,374
Speaker 1: You know, I don't want to ask you to relive

703
00:38:11,414 --> 00:38:13,814
Speaker 1: that moment, but the ways are, how do you get

704
00:38:13,814 --> 00:38:15,934
Speaker 1: over any of this? Like I look at you sitting

705
00:38:15,934 --> 00:38:18,934
Speaker 1: in front of me, and I know people go to

706
00:38:18,974 --> 00:38:23,054
Speaker 1: war and that's essentially what you did. How do you

707
00:38:23,094 --> 00:38:24,214
Speaker 1: do it? How do you recover?

708
00:38:26,814 --> 00:38:31,414
Speaker 3: Everyone's experience is different, and trauma and we talk about

709
00:38:31,454 --> 00:38:35,134
Speaker 3: post traumatic stress, and you know, trauma is a really

710
00:38:36,334 --> 00:38:41,614
Speaker 3: bizarre kind of thing. And for me personally, I think

711
00:38:41,654 --> 00:38:46,014
Speaker 3: that this is my experience. Mum's experience was very different.

712
00:38:46,734 --> 00:38:54,214
Speaker 3: But for me, I went into a place of post trauma.

713
00:38:54,454 --> 00:38:57,774
Speaker 3: Like I was so overwhelmed with the gratitude, so grateful

714
00:38:57,894 --> 00:39:01,094
Speaker 3: that I'd been spared in that moment, so grateful that

715
00:39:01,174 --> 00:39:04,534
Speaker 3: there was a future, and so grateful you know, Mum

716
00:39:04,614 --> 00:39:07,774
Speaker 3: was still alive and you know, and also that I

717
00:39:07,814 --> 00:39:10,814
Speaker 3: could have a refocus and I just had that determination

718
00:39:10,894 --> 00:39:13,054
Speaker 3: that we were going to get something good out of

719
00:39:13,054 --> 00:39:18,734
Speaker 3: that awful situation. So for me, I feel in hindsight

720
00:39:18,814 --> 00:39:22,774
Speaker 3: now that I went into a kind of post euphoria

721
00:39:24,934 --> 00:39:29,454
Speaker 3: and that pushed me forward. And that, of course, I

722
00:39:29,494 --> 00:39:33,534
Speaker 3: have to say, comes from you know, my practice, my

723
00:39:33,574 --> 00:39:36,494
Speaker 3: practice of prayer, my practice of faith, and all those

724
00:39:36,534 --> 00:39:39,214
Speaker 3: things that were already in my life and were part

725
00:39:39,254 --> 00:39:43,454
Speaker 3: of you know, my inner life, and so all of

726
00:39:43,454 --> 00:39:49,094
Speaker 3: those things built into that. But at the same time

727
00:39:49,294 --> 00:39:52,734
Speaker 3: and equally as potent I have to say, is the

728
00:39:52,894 --> 00:39:57,614
Speaker 3: overwhelming anxiety. Now, this is really interesting how we think

729
00:39:57,654 --> 00:40:02,134
Speaker 3: about anxiety. But for me, I understood how I felt

730
00:40:02,374 --> 00:40:05,894
Speaker 3: immediately in those final moments. And when I say, the

731
00:40:05,894 --> 00:40:10,414
Speaker 3: adrenaline was dripping out of me physically, could feel like

732
00:40:11,014 --> 00:40:14,254
Speaker 3: my entire body was engaged in the adrenaline and I

733
00:40:14,294 --> 00:40:17,334
Speaker 3: could feel it and I was just maxed out, There's

734
00:40:17,334 --> 00:40:19,414
Speaker 3: no other way to describe it, maxed out. And it

735
00:40:19,414 --> 00:40:24,214
Speaker 3: was almost like my brain was expanding. And so what

736
00:40:24,374 --> 00:40:28,174
Speaker 3: happens for me now five years later, still I can

737
00:40:28,254 --> 00:40:32,014
Speaker 3: find that I can I can be some sort of circumstance.

738
00:40:32,054 --> 00:40:35,614
Speaker 3: It could be traffic, or it could be any little moment,

739
00:40:35,894 --> 00:40:41,934
Speaker 3: no random reason. But anxiety comes instantly from like zero

740
00:40:42,294 --> 00:40:46,174
Speaker 3: to one hundred in an instant, and I can recognize

741
00:40:46,174 --> 00:40:48,134
Speaker 3: it's in my body and I go, yes, I know

742
00:40:48,334 --> 00:40:50,974
Speaker 3: my body has gone from zero to one hundred to

743
00:40:51,014 --> 00:40:56,054
Speaker 3: one thousand exactly right there. It's the same feeling that

744
00:40:56,134 --> 00:40:59,614
Speaker 3: I experienced in that moment at the end, and I

745
00:40:59,654 --> 00:41:02,454
Speaker 3: haven't worked out how to turn it off yet, but

746
00:41:02,534 --> 00:41:06,174
Speaker 3: I have worked out how to steal my heart and

747
00:41:06,334 --> 00:41:11,694
Speaker 3: just control myself as opposed to okay, I'm here and

748
00:41:11,734 --> 00:41:14,094
Speaker 3: then I'm there, And some days I can be good

749
00:41:14,094 --> 00:41:16,294
Speaker 3: at it, and some days I'm not so good at it,

750
00:41:16,614 --> 00:41:20,174
Speaker 3: And I'm very blessed because I'm surrounded by a family

751
00:41:20,174 --> 00:41:24,094
Speaker 3: who understand and friends who are under control. And sometimes

752
00:41:24,134 --> 00:41:25,694
Speaker 3: it's a moment where a friend will sit and just

753
00:41:26,014 --> 00:41:27,574
Speaker 3: have a little quiet sit and will have a prey.

754
00:41:28,014 --> 00:41:31,454
Speaker 3: And sometimes it's a moment where I go into a

755
00:41:31,494 --> 00:41:35,374
Speaker 3: meditative state or you know, just do the breathing that's

756
00:41:35,374 --> 00:41:38,694
Speaker 3: associated with calming myself. There's all little tricks that you

757
00:41:38,694 --> 00:41:41,814
Speaker 3: can use for that, but it's very real. The thing is,

758
00:41:42,294 --> 00:41:46,134
Speaker 3: anxiety knows no level in that. So I had an

759
00:41:46,134 --> 00:41:49,454
Speaker 3: experience that was pretty tense and out there, but you know,

760
00:41:50,374 --> 00:41:53,214
Speaker 3: anxiety is the same for the woman who's just been

761
00:41:53,254 --> 00:41:56,294
Speaker 3: assaulted in her own home, or for somebody who's facing

762
00:41:56,454 --> 00:41:59,694
Speaker 3: a traffic accident or somebody who's having a stroke. Anxiety

763
00:41:59,894 --> 00:42:03,174
Speaker 3: is no respector of persons, and we all experience it

764
00:42:03,614 --> 00:42:07,454
Speaker 3: in our own individual way, but the same. So you know,

765
00:42:07,494 --> 00:42:10,654
Speaker 3: if someone tells me they've got anxiety, I can really relate.

766
00:42:11,014 --> 00:42:13,814
Speaker 3: And it doesn't matter what caused, it doesn't matter, it's

767
00:42:13,854 --> 00:42:16,054
Speaker 3: all the same. So you know, we need to be

768
00:42:16,174 --> 00:42:18,494
Speaker 3: kind to each other sometimes, you know, because we don't

769
00:42:18,494 --> 00:42:20,254
Speaker 3: know what someone else is going through.

770
00:42:20,854 --> 00:42:23,294
Speaker 1: There's something that happens. I always assume that anyone who

771
00:42:23,414 --> 00:42:28,334
Speaker 1: experiences a tragedy has post traumatic stress and post traumat syndrome.

772
00:42:30,094 --> 00:42:33,814
Speaker 1: But I learned through reading Lee Sales's book that and

773
00:42:34,054 --> 00:42:37,734
Speaker 1: actually through people that I know, not everyone has that.

774
00:42:38,094 --> 00:42:41,574
Speaker 1: Some people have post traumatic growth, which is a little

775
00:42:41,574 --> 00:42:45,094
Speaker 1: bit like the euphoria is probably a different stage, but

776
00:42:45,254 --> 00:42:48,654
Speaker 1: the post traumatic growth is when my friend who had

777
00:42:48,654 --> 00:42:50,974
Speaker 1: a stillborn baby, described it to me as that the

778
00:42:51,014 --> 00:42:53,894
Speaker 1: death of her daughter turned the light up in her life,

779
00:42:53,974 --> 00:42:59,014
Speaker 1: not down, and she didn't expect that. Would you say

780
00:42:59,054 --> 00:43:01,934
Speaker 1: that that's been what this experience has done to you?

781
00:43:02,014 --> 00:43:03,894
Speaker 1: Has it turned the light up in your life?

782
00:43:04,214 --> 00:43:05,134
Speaker 3: God bless your friend?

783
00:43:05,174 --> 00:43:05,374
Speaker 4: You know.

784
00:43:05,414 --> 00:43:08,374
Speaker 3: That is such a beautiful way to express that, And

785
00:43:08,414 --> 00:43:12,414
Speaker 3: that's really exact exactly how it really feels. I have

786
00:43:12,494 --> 00:43:15,574
Speaker 3: found that. I found that for me, I felt like

787
00:43:16,334 --> 00:43:20,014
Speaker 3: I expanded as a human, as a person, so that

788
00:43:20,054 --> 00:43:24,934
Speaker 3: my capacity was more. So, you know, I equally feel

789
00:43:24,974 --> 00:43:30,014
Speaker 3: that expansion of self and my capacity to cope with

790
00:43:30,054 --> 00:43:34,294
Speaker 3: more in many ways coupled with the balancing effect of

791
00:43:34,694 --> 00:43:40,734
Speaker 3: oh yeah, all that random anxiety and distress and pressure.

792
00:43:41,494 --> 00:43:45,854
Speaker 3: So it's very finely tuned and needs to be very

793
00:43:45,854 --> 00:43:49,974
Speaker 3: finely balanced. But if I look forward and focus myself

794
00:43:50,014 --> 00:43:53,294
Speaker 3: that way, it very much is about that. So now

795
00:43:53,334 --> 00:43:56,054
Speaker 3: I feel like, Okay, what else is out there that

796
00:43:56,094 --> 00:44:00,894
Speaker 3: we need to fix? Change, grow, evolve? What are the

797
00:44:00,974 --> 00:44:04,014
Speaker 3: other things that need to be looked at postiege that

798
00:44:04,614 --> 00:44:07,414
Speaker 3: business that we need to do as a society, within

799
00:44:07,454 --> 00:44:11,894
Speaker 3: our institutions, and of course for me as well being

800
00:44:11,894 --> 00:44:15,774
Speaker 3: involved with the nurses. So you know, it's just I

801
00:44:15,814 --> 00:44:19,334
Speaker 3: feel like there's no there's no place to say no anymore.

802
00:44:20,014 --> 00:44:21,214
Speaker 3: We just got to go forward.

803
00:44:21,774 --> 00:44:24,734
Speaker 1: You started a foundation, oh to help nurses. Tell me

804
00:44:24,774 --> 00:44:26,734
Speaker 1: about your time in hospital after the scene?

805
00:44:26,734 --> 00:44:26,894
Speaker 3: Wow?

806
00:44:27,134 --> 00:44:30,134
Speaker 1: Well hospital, okay, you were there for a long time.

807
00:44:31,054 --> 00:44:34,694
Speaker 1: It just was full on seems unfair after what you

808
00:44:34,774 --> 00:44:35,214
Speaker 1: went through.

809
00:44:35,334 --> 00:44:37,054
Speaker 3: I know it was that kind of you just don't

810
00:44:37,054 --> 00:44:40,854
Speaker 3: imagine that, you know, Like seriously, I thought, okay, well

811
00:44:40,854 --> 00:44:42,494
Speaker 3: once because I really I thought I was going to

812
00:44:42,574 --> 00:44:44,414
Speaker 3: lose my foot. I really had that moment. We had

813
00:44:44,414 --> 00:44:46,614
Speaker 3: a hole in it it certainly, did you know?

814
00:44:46,734 --> 00:44:48,614
Speaker 1: And what do it look like when I looked at it?

815
00:44:48,694 --> 00:44:50,854
Speaker 3: Well, you know, it was pretty when it was first done.

816
00:44:50,894 --> 00:44:53,334
Speaker 3: It was just like horrendous. Like I used to get

817
00:44:53,334 --> 00:44:55,654
Speaker 3: in a little state of shock whenever they redressed the wound,

818
00:44:55,974 --> 00:44:58,054
Speaker 3: because it was just the shock of seeing it, you know.

819
00:44:59,294 --> 00:45:01,454
Speaker 3: But of course now it looks now, it looks like

820
00:45:01,534 --> 00:45:04,734
Speaker 3: I describe it as someone's got the barmacs and gone

821
00:45:05,254 --> 00:45:07,974
Speaker 3: on my foot. It's just it's a classic honey home

822
00:45:08,054 --> 00:45:11,174
Speaker 3: wound and it's some messy, just to say the least.

823
00:45:11,214 --> 00:45:14,174
Speaker 3: But you know, three months in hospital was not what

824
00:45:14,214 --> 00:45:16,494
Speaker 3: I expected. I thought i'd be there two weeks, you know,

825
00:45:16,814 --> 00:45:18,294
Speaker 3: by the time Chris, I'll be out, and I thought

826
00:45:18,294 --> 00:45:20,774
Speaker 3: it'd be out for New Year Christmas. That didn't happen,

827
00:45:20,854 --> 00:45:22,534
Speaker 3: and it just kind of extended. It extends.

828
00:45:22,534 --> 00:45:24,494
Speaker 1: You needed operations, reconstruction.

829
00:45:24,654 --> 00:45:27,254
Speaker 3: That's why I had three surgeries and then and then

830
00:45:27,294 --> 00:45:30,214
Speaker 3: of course rehabilitation, and so I went from Prince of

831
00:45:30,254 --> 00:45:32,534
Speaker 3: Wales to a private hospital in the Eastern suburbs and

832
00:45:33,094 --> 00:45:36,494
Speaker 3: so that was a long time in hospital. But that

833
00:45:36,614 --> 00:45:41,214
Speaker 3: time gave me well, really, you don't think about it

834
00:45:41,254 --> 00:45:43,854
Speaker 3: in the moment, but in hindsight I realized was like

835
00:45:43,894 --> 00:45:47,894
Speaker 3: a blessing because it insulated me from the world immediately

836
00:45:47,934 --> 00:45:54,334
Speaker 3: after the siege, and it gave me time for reflection

837
00:45:54,614 --> 00:45:59,774
Speaker 3: and to think forward, and also my experience with the

838
00:45:59,854 --> 00:46:03,654
Speaker 3: nurses then sent me on that journey. And so when

839
00:46:03,734 --> 00:46:06,814
Speaker 3: sixty minutes we're discussing, you know, if we're going to

840
00:46:06,854 --> 00:46:09,254
Speaker 3: talk to them, and like my mother and I knew

841
00:46:10,174 --> 00:46:11,854
Speaker 3: from the go get that we would have to share

842
00:46:11,974 --> 00:46:15,334
Speaker 3: with everyone, because we knew that if we'd been on

843
00:46:15,374 --> 00:46:17,414
Speaker 3: the outside, we would have wanted to know what happened

844
00:46:17,454 --> 00:46:20,094
Speaker 3: to the people on the inside. So we understood that.

845
00:46:20,494 --> 00:46:25,574
Speaker 3: And also because I personally felt that we were all

846
00:46:25,654 --> 00:46:27,654
Speaker 3: part of what happened that day, like this was not

847
00:46:27,654 --> 00:46:29,694
Speaker 3: something that happened to just me and my mother and

848
00:46:29,694 --> 00:46:32,334
Speaker 3: my fellow hostages. It happened to the whole country. So

849
00:46:32,374 --> 00:46:36,894
Speaker 3: we had to be accountable for that. So anyway, when

850
00:46:36,894 --> 00:46:39,574
Speaker 3: sixty Minutes generously gave me that twenty five thousand dollars

851
00:46:39,654 --> 00:46:43,174
Speaker 3: and Mike bed matched that money, had a little fifty

852
00:46:43,174 --> 00:46:45,094
Speaker 3: grand in my hand, and I kind of thought, right,

853
00:46:45,854 --> 00:46:47,374
Speaker 3: I know what I wanted to do with it, because

854
00:46:47,374 --> 00:46:50,174
Speaker 3: I was going to do a little I thought originally

855
00:46:50,174 --> 00:46:52,094
Speaker 3: that I just do a little fundraiser for the nurses

856
00:46:52,414 --> 00:46:54,774
Speaker 3: within my own community, and we get a few grand

857
00:46:54,814 --> 00:46:56,414
Speaker 3: and I give it to the nurses on my ward,

858
00:46:56,854 --> 00:46:59,294
Speaker 3: But fifty grand was a whole lot more money, and

859
00:47:00,254 --> 00:47:03,174
Speaker 3: so I went to the foundation at Prince of Wales

860
00:47:03,574 --> 00:47:08,934
Speaker 3: and the Lulu Salapa, who was the CEO there, brilliant, amazing.

861
00:47:09,214 --> 00:47:11,814
Speaker 3: That foundation runs like a machine, I've got to tell you.

862
00:47:12,254 --> 00:47:14,134
Speaker 3: So of course Lulu had been a nurse in a

863
00:47:14,134 --> 00:47:17,334
Speaker 3: previous life, and so she knew exactly what I was

864
00:47:17,374 --> 00:47:19,414
Speaker 3: saying when I said I don't want this to go

865
00:47:19,454 --> 00:47:21,214
Speaker 3: for a carpet or for a new paint in the

866
00:47:21,214 --> 00:47:23,414
Speaker 3: hospital or anything, or in the boardroom or anything. I

867
00:47:23,454 --> 00:47:26,774
Speaker 3: wanted to be for nurse initiated projects. And she absolutely

868
00:47:26,814 --> 00:47:30,174
Speaker 3: got that. She knew exactly how to create that make

869
00:47:30,214 --> 00:47:32,374
Speaker 3: it happen, and so that's what happened. And of course

870
00:47:32,414 --> 00:47:34,814
Speaker 3: once I started to see what the nurses were doing

871
00:47:34,814 --> 00:47:38,054
Speaker 3: with the money, I couldn't stop, you know, I just

872
00:47:38,094 --> 00:47:41,214
Speaker 3: had to keep trying to raise money and raise awareness

873
00:47:41,214 --> 00:47:43,134
Speaker 3: to the nurses and what they do for us. So,

874
00:47:43,174 --> 00:47:44,614
Speaker 3: you know, I could rave on about this for hours

875
00:47:44,614 --> 00:47:45,694
Speaker 3: because it's my happy place.

876
00:47:46,174 --> 00:47:49,614
Speaker 1: But yeah, that's part of your post traumatic growth also, right,

877
00:47:49,774 --> 00:47:52,974
Speaker 1: finding a way to channel this thing that happened to

878
00:47:53,014 --> 00:47:55,854
Speaker 1: you that was so shocking into something positive.

879
00:47:56,014 --> 00:47:57,294
Speaker 3: Well, you know, it really was an answer to my

880
00:47:57,334 --> 00:47:59,774
Speaker 3: prayer in many ways, because I so wanted something good

881
00:47:59,814 --> 00:48:02,814
Speaker 3: to come out of this, and now I realized that

882
00:48:02,814 --> 00:48:04,654
Speaker 3: the good is not going to come through me. It's

883
00:48:04,654 --> 00:48:06,494
Speaker 3: going to come through the nurses and the work that

884
00:48:06,534 --> 00:48:09,534
Speaker 3: they are doing. Because the nurses, all of their projects

885
00:48:09,654 --> 00:48:12,894
Speaker 3: are about, you know, how to help us as patients,

886
00:48:13,414 --> 00:48:16,214
Speaker 3: and that of course is the universal focus of nurses,

887
00:48:16,334 --> 00:48:20,334
Speaker 3: and so yeah, I just have the privilege of being

888
00:48:20,334 --> 00:48:23,014
Speaker 3: involved in that. I'm just like, my goodness, how blessed

889
00:48:23,014 --> 00:48:23,254
Speaker 3: am I?

890
00:48:23,774 --> 00:48:26,134
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny what you just said about how

891
00:48:26,174 --> 00:48:29,534
Speaker 1: you recognize that it's something that happened to all of us,

892
00:48:30,334 --> 00:48:33,614
Speaker 1: not just the people in the cafe, which sounds almost

893
00:48:34,494 --> 00:48:37,654
Speaker 1: arrogant when you particularly when you think about Tory and

894
00:48:37,774 --> 00:48:41,174
Speaker 1: Katrina and the families that they left behind and all

895
00:48:41,174 --> 00:48:45,254
Speaker 1: of you that were in there. How did you sort

896
00:48:45,254 --> 00:48:48,774
Speaker 1: of become aware that we do all sort of need

897
00:48:48,814 --> 00:48:51,774
Speaker 1: to process and to tell you where we were that

898
00:48:51,854 --> 00:48:53,534
Speaker 1: day and what our connections. I mean, the first thing

899
00:48:53,574 --> 00:48:55,494
Speaker 1: I did when I met you this morning was tell

900
00:48:55,574 --> 00:48:57,814
Speaker 1: you how I had connections to Tory and how I

901
00:48:57,854 --> 00:49:01,254
Speaker 1: had connections to Katrina. It's a lot to take on

902
00:49:02,654 --> 00:49:04,974
Speaker 1: how that affected the kind of the national psyche? How

903
00:49:05,014 --> 00:49:06,054
Speaker 1: did you become aware of it?

904
00:49:06,454 --> 00:49:08,494
Speaker 3: You know, when I think that, like I said, you know,

905
00:49:09,134 --> 00:49:11,614
Speaker 3: I was ware well, you know, like I know how

906
00:49:11,614 --> 00:49:13,854
Speaker 3: we would have been, my mother and I. We would

907
00:49:13,854 --> 00:49:16,334
Speaker 3: have been outside the cafe praying for people. We would

908
00:49:16,334 --> 00:49:18,254
Speaker 3: have stayed up all night, we would have waited with them.

909
00:49:18,454 --> 00:49:20,614
Speaker 3: A nurse once said to me, you know, about a

910
00:49:20,654 --> 00:49:22,574
Speaker 3: week and a half into my stay at the hospital,

911
00:49:22,654 --> 00:49:25,494
Speaker 3: she said, even though I was on morning shift, I

912
00:49:25,534 --> 00:49:27,934
Speaker 3: had to stay up to the very end and watch

913
00:49:27,934 --> 00:49:29,894
Speaker 3: on the television. She said, I couldn't leave you in

914
00:49:29,894 --> 00:49:32,934
Speaker 3: there alone. And I thought, oh, yes, I understand what

915
00:49:32,934 --> 00:49:33,454
Speaker 3: she's saying.

916
00:49:33,534 --> 00:49:35,534
Speaker 1: Yeah, that none of us wanted to go to sleep

917
00:49:35,534 --> 00:49:36,014
Speaker 1: that night.

918
00:49:36,454 --> 00:49:40,174
Speaker 3: Yeah see, you know we're all we're all leaving, that's right,

919
00:49:40,694 --> 00:49:43,854
Speaker 3: And so you I think that we if we recognize,

920
00:49:43,894 --> 00:49:46,414
Speaker 3: this is something that happened to all of us. And

921
00:49:46,454 --> 00:49:48,694
Speaker 3: when you think about what happened in Martin Place after,

922
00:49:49,774 --> 00:49:51,734
Speaker 3: you know, I was in hospital and it was on

923
00:49:51,814 --> 00:49:55,014
Speaker 3: a self imposed media blackout, but friends were bringing me

924
00:49:55,134 --> 00:49:59,494
Speaker 3: news and telling me stories and photographs, flowers, flowers and people.

925
00:49:59,534 --> 00:50:03,494
Speaker 3: They're telling me about random strangers sitting and talking and praying,

926
00:50:03,534 --> 00:50:08,654
Speaker 3: and you know, Muslim people being there and everyone sharing together,

927
00:50:09,254 --> 00:50:11,294
Speaker 3: and and of course the Ride with Me campaign that

928
00:50:11,334 --> 00:50:14,174
Speaker 3: happened afterwards. So all of that stuff you kind of

929
00:50:14,494 --> 00:50:17,294
Speaker 3: I think it very clearly made it obvious that we

930
00:50:17,294 --> 00:50:19,854
Speaker 3: were all in this together. So therefore we had to

931
00:50:19,854 --> 00:50:23,574
Speaker 3: find a way to recover together. So for me, that's

932
00:50:23,574 --> 00:50:26,614
Speaker 3: really important, and part of that is telling our stories

933
00:50:26,654 --> 00:50:29,094
Speaker 3: to each other. And so I have great respect you know,

934
00:50:29,174 --> 00:50:34,814
Speaker 3: people come and tell me. And you know Lisa ELS's book,

935
00:50:34,814 --> 00:50:37,294
Speaker 3: of course, you know she talks about things like that

936
00:50:37,534 --> 00:50:39,894
Speaker 3: where but we all had an ownership, did we not?

937
00:50:40,134 --> 00:50:43,294
Speaker 3: In Threadbow and what happened to poor with Arthur, So

938
00:50:43,414 --> 00:50:45,614
Speaker 3: we all have a part of it. And if we

939
00:50:45,694 --> 00:50:47,774
Speaker 3: think that it's just oh yeah, something that happened on

940
00:50:47,774 --> 00:50:51,774
Speaker 3: a news cycle, well actually it's not. Because we're all

941
00:50:51,814 --> 00:50:54,934
Speaker 3: impacted by these things. So how do we recover together?

942
00:50:55,574 --> 00:50:59,334
Speaker 1: That's incredibly gracious of you to understand that and acknowledge it.

943
00:50:59,414 --> 00:51:02,934
Speaker 1: And I'm going to guess that people would have two

944
00:51:02,974 --> 00:51:07,294
Speaker 1: reactions in terms of the hostages. Some, I imagine, would

945
00:51:07,334 --> 00:51:09,174
Speaker 1: want to stay in touch and feel very bonded, and

946
00:51:09,214 --> 00:51:12,294
Speaker 1: others want to just walk away and never look back.

947
00:51:13,094 --> 00:51:15,014
Speaker 1: Is that how it's panned out with those of you

948
00:51:15,054 --> 00:51:16,654
Speaker 1: who were there and lived through that?

949
00:51:17,054 --> 00:51:21,254
Speaker 3: Definitely, you know, all separate individuals with individual lives and stories,

950
00:51:21,334 --> 00:51:25,574
Speaker 3: and you know, sometimes contact is a reminder of that

951
00:51:25,654 --> 00:51:28,974
Speaker 3: day and that's just too hard. And you know, I

952
00:51:29,014 --> 00:51:33,894
Speaker 3: totally respect that, and you know, my heart's always you know,

953
00:51:34,014 --> 00:51:35,934
Speaker 3: are you okay? And how you doing and all that

954
00:51:36,014 --> 00:51:39,174
Speaker 3: kind of stuff. But I also am aware that I

955
00:51:39,614 --> 00:51:43,054
Speaker 3: myself don't want to be an inflictor of further pain.

956
00:51:43,774 --> 00:51:45,694
Speaker 3: So you know, it's really hard to kind of just

957
00:51:45,734 --> 00:51:50,334
Speaker 3: walk that fine line between respect and care. So yes,

958
00:51:50,454 --> 00:51:56,294
Speaker 3: you just have to well hands off and wait really, so, yeah,

959
00:51:56,374 --> 00:52:00,094
Speaker 3: do you stay in touch a few of them? I do, Yes, definitely,

960
00:52:00,614 --> 00:52:04,494
Speaker 3: and I value that so much, and I'm always keen

961
00:52:04,574 --> 00:52:07,334
Speaker 3: for any news of anyone else, but just so don't

962
00:52:07,334 --> 00:52:11,694
Speaker 3: want to invade them, you know, because we're five years

963
00:52:12,534 --> 00:52:18,014
Speaker 3: and so, you know, so aren't we inverted commas over

964
00:52:18,054 --> 00:52:21,934
Speaker 3: that already? But it's just it's not like that. It's

965
00:52:21,974 --> 00:52:27,054
Speaker 3: never over, actually, and so I don't never be over

966
00:52:27,094 --> 00:52:30,574
Speaker 3: for the families. But equally, you know, you stand up

967
00:52:30,614 --> 00:52:32,294
Speaker 3: and you dust yourself off and you get on.

968
00:52:32,814 --> 00:52:38,574
Speaker 1: But It's always there, Louisa. I just want to thank you.

969
00:52:38,694 --> 00:52:41,654
Speaker 1: I mean, I understand that so many of the survivors

970
00:52:41,654 --> 00:52:44,094
Speaker 1: from that day and the families have wanted to retreat

971
00:52:45,774 --> 00:52:49,534
Speaker 1: and you haven't. You've kept being out there and speaking

972
00:52:50,494 --> 00:52:53,694
Speaker 1: to be of service and to help us collectively process this,

973
00:52:54,134 --> 00:52:56,454
Speaker 1: as well as trying to use it for good and

974
00:52:56,814 --> 00:53:00,974
Speaker 1: raise money for your foundation and to help nurses. You

975
00:53:01,014 --> 00:53:03,054
Speaker 1: are such a force of good in the world. Like

976
00:53:03,894 --> 00:53:07,134
Speaker 1: for everything that he was a force of dark, you

977
00:53:07,214 --> 00:53:12,094
Speaker 1: are that opposite and that that equal and you know,

978
00:53:12,374 --> 00:53:15,294
Speaker 1: exceptional force of good. And I just wanted to say

979
00:53:15,294 --> 00:53:22,134
Speaker 1: thank you, Thank you, ma'a. I hope that the incredible

980
00:53:22,254 --> 00:53:26,694
Speaker 1: I don't know luminescence of Louisa came through in that

981
00:53:26,774 --> 00:53:29,774
Speaker 1: interview in the same way that it did in the room.

982
00:53:30,254 --> 00:53:34,254
Speaker 1: We were all in tears, my producer, our person behind

983
00:53:34,294 --> 00:53:38,014
Speaker 1: the camera, and the guy that came along with Louisa

984
00:53:38,054 --> 00:53:40,694
Speaker 1: as her sort of support person because she walks with

985
00:53:40,734 --> 00:53:43,574
Speaker 1: a cane and sher foot's bandaged, but she had this

986
00:53:43,774 --> 00:53:49,054
Speaker 1: beautiful bright orange patent leather strappy sandals around her foot,

987
00:53:49,134 --> 00:53:52,414
Speaker 1: and she was wearing this gorgeous floral dress and she

988
00:53:52,494 --> 00:53:54,854
Speaker 1: was telling me this amazing story of how the day

989
00:53:54,854 --> 00:53:57,174
Speaker 1: before she'd been in the city and she'd fallen over,

990
00:53:57,254 --> 00:54:00,734
Speaker 1: and she said, that's something that happens not infrequently because

991
00:54:00,774 --> 00:54:02,894
Speaker 1: of her foot and she sometimes loses her footing. And

992
00:54:02,934 --> 00:54:05,414
Speaker 1: she was in the middle of the street and a

993
00:54:05,454 --> 00:54:07,774
Speaker 1: guy came to help her, and he said, oh, he

994
00:54:07,814 --> 00:54:09,174
Speaker 1: noticed that she had a bandage on her foot, and

995
00:54:09,174 --> 00:54:10,374
Speaker 1: he said, oh, were you okay?

996
00:54:10,454 --> 00:54:11,014
Speaker 3: What happened?

997
00:54:11,454 --> 00:54:14,974
Speaker 1: And she said, oh, I was in the siege and

998
00:54:15,014 --> 00:54:17,934
Speaker 1: I got some shrapnel in my foot. And he said, oh,

999
00:54:17,934 --> 00:54:21,454
Speaker 1: my god, my son is best friends with Katrina Dawson's son,

1000
00:54:21,574 --> 00:54:24,534
Speaker 1: and I just dropped both the boys at camp. And

1001
00:54:25,654 --> 00:54:27,574
Speaker 1: of all the people who could have come to help

1002
00:54:27,614 --> 00:54:29,774
Speaker 1: her in the middle of a city on an ordinary day,

1003
00:54:30,774 --> 00:54:34,654
Speaker 1: I don't know. Makes you wonder as you heard towards

1004
00:54:34,694 --> 00:54:37,934
Speaker 1: the end of the siege, Louisa was injured. She got

1005
00:54:37,934 --> 00:54:40,774
Speaker 1: shrapnel in her foot from all the gunfire, and afterwards

1006
00:54:40,774 --> 00:54:43,054
Speaker 1: she was taken to the Prince of Wales Hospital here

1007
00:54:43,094 --> 00:54:46,254
Speaker 1: in Sydney, where she spent three months as a patient,

1008
00:54:46,894 --> 00:54:49,134
Speaker 1: and she was so moved by the care and the

1009
00:54:49,174 --> 00:54:53,254
Speaker 1: compassion that she received there she decided to take this

1010
00:54:53,334 --> 00:54:57,094
Speaker 1: tragedy and turn it into something positive and she created

1011
00:54:57,094 --> 00:55:00,094
Speaker 1: the Louisa Hope Fund for Nurses as part of the

1012
00:55:00,094 --> 00:55:03,294
Speaker 1: Prince of Wales Hospital Foundation. To donate to the Prince

1013
00:55:03,294 --> 00:55:07,134
Speaker 1: of Wales Hospital Foundation Louisa Hope Fund for Nurses, please

1014
00:55:07,214 --> 00:55:12,214
Speaker 1: visit pow HF dot org dot au and we'll put

1015
00:55:12,214 --> 00:55:15,614
Speaker 1: a link in our show notes. This episode was produced

1016
00:55:15,694 --> 00:55:19,534
Speaker 1: by bridget Northeast and to the families of Katrina Dawson

1017
00:55:19,694 --> 00:55:23,854
Speaker 1: and Tory Johnson, re extend all our love and our

1018
00:55:23,894 --> 00:55:28,174
Speaker 1: deepest sympathies. Katrina and Tory are not forgotten.

1019
00:55:30,134 --> 00:55:32,534
Speaker 4: Hey, it's me just jumping back into your ears with

1020
00:55:32,654 --> 00:55:36,934
Speaker 4: no voice now. Since we recorded that interview with Louisa

1021
00:55:37,134 --> 00:55:41,774
Speaker 4: last week, we've also done another interview about the Sydney

1022
00:55:41,974 --> 00:55:45,454
Speaker 4: Link Cafe siege more generally with a journalist called Debra

1023
00:55:45,494 --> 00:55:47,734
Speaker 4: Snow who's written a book on it. We did it

1024
00:55:47,774 --> 00:55:51,054
Speaker 4: on our podcast through Crime Conversations. Jesse Stevens did that

1025
00:55:51,094 --> 00:55:54,094
Speaker 4: interview and it feels in a lot of the blanks

1026
00:55:54,294 --> 00:55:56,214
Speaker 4: that you might have and a lot of the questions

1027
00:55:56,214 --> 00:55:59,494
Speaker 4: that you might have after listening to Louisa's incredible story,

1028
00:55:59,534 --> 00:56:02,054
Speaker 4: because I really had to make a decision when I

1029
00:56:02,094 --> 00:56:04,574
Speaker 4: was talking to her what I would talk to her about,

1030
00:56:04,734 --> 00:56:06,574
Speaker 4: like I could have talked to her for one hundred years, really,

1031
00:56:06,654 --> 00:56:09,134
Speaker 4: she was so interesting. But there were things about the

1032
00:56:09,174 --> 00:56:13,414
Speaker 4: gun about his history, about the police response, about some

1033
00:56:13,494 --> 00:56:16,374
Speaker 4: of the TikTok, and what happened step by step during

1034
00:56:16,414 --> 00:56:19,654
Speaker 4: the day that we just didn't cover. So this other

1035
00:56:19,694 --> 00:56:22,814
Speaker 4: interview on our podcast, True Crime Conversations, you might want

1036
00:56:22,814 --> 00:56:24,854
Speaker 4: to listen to it. You'll find it wherever you find

1037
00:56:24,894 --> 00:56:28,094
Speaker 4: your podcasts. And we've actually done it in two parts.

1038
00:56:28,134 --> 00:56:30,854
Speaker 4: The first part is a little bit about the gunman,

1039
00:56:31,054 --> 00:56:33,294
Speaker 4: or a lot about the gunment actually and what happened

1040
00:56:33,294 --> 00:56:35,774
Speaker 4: before the siege, and then there's a lot about the

1041
00:56:35,814 --> 00:56:38,454
Speaker 4: siege itself in our second part, So have a listen

1042
00:56:38,454 --> 00:56:38,694
Speaker 4: to that.

1043
00:56:39,134 --> 00:56:41,894
Speaker 2: I hope you enjoyed this episode of No Filter with Louisa.

1044
00:56:41,974 --> 00:56:43,974
Speaker 2: Hope you can find a link to follow No Filter

1045
00:56:44,134 --> 00:56:46,014
Speaker 2: in the show notes, as well as the quickie too.

1046
00:56:46,374 --> 00:56:48,534
Speaker 2: And I'll be back here tomorrow morning getting you up

1047
00:56:48,574 --> 00:56:50,294
Speaker 2: to speed on the biggest news stories of the day

1048
00:56:50,414 --> 00:56:51,294
Speaker 2: from six am.

1049
00:56:51,454 --> 00:56:51,934
Speaker 3: See you then,