1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:05,680 Speaker 1: People deal with grief differently. Grief has stages. I'll say 2 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,719 Speaker 1: that if I had a moment to reflect God and 3 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:09,760 Speaker 1: know where records of life. 4 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 2: It's a Friday night in Melbourne, CBD in May twenty 5 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 2: nineteen and Courtney Heron is out in the city with 6 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 2: her boyfriend and a friend. A young homeless man approaches 7 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:24,640 Speaker 2: the asking for a cigarette. He seems harmless friendly, so 8 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 2: she hands one over. She invites the man, whose name 9 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 2: is Henry, back to her friend's place, where they smoke 10 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,720 Speaker 2: some ice before heading out for some dinner. Her shower 11 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:38,199 Speaker 2: CCTV catches them chatting bantering as they head back to 12 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 2: the apartment. All is well. Back in the lound room, 13 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 2: they smoke some more and then Courtney and Henry leave 14 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 2: together at about four point thirty am walking through Royal 15 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:53,200 Speaker 2: Park in the city's inner north. It's here where things 16 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 2: take a turn. Henry is walking in front. He picks 17 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 2: up a fallen tree branch. Are you going to kill me? 18 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:05,040 Speaker 2: Courtney asks him. They are the twenty five year old's 19 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 2: last words. 20 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 3: Details have emerged about the Royal Park murder, with twenty 21 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 3: five year old Courtney Heron revealed as the victim. 22 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 2: I'm Jemma Bath and you're listening to True Crime Conversations, 23 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 2: a podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking 24 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 2: to the people who know the most about them. Courtney 25 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 2: heron was so badly injured she was only identifiable via 26 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 2: her fingerprints. I'm going to describe what happened to Courtney 27 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 2: because it's important to understand the brutality of the crime 28 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 2: in light of what subsequently happened in court. But consider 29 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 2: this here warning. Henry Richard Hammond beat Courtney with a 30 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 2: tree branch for up to fifty minutes across her face 31 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 2: and body, causing fatal injuries. Then he tied her legs 32 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 2: and dragged her body into a more concealed area, where 33 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 2: he covered her with foliage and placed a large piece 34 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 2: of concrete on her face. He took off with her 35 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:09,640 Speaker 2: wallet and phone. She was discovered the next morning by 36 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 2: dog walkers. Twenty seven year old Henry Hammond was arrested 37 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 2: and charged shortly after. Courtney's murder sparked anger across Australia, 38 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 2: with vigils and marches held in her honor. It fuelled 39 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 2: public debate on male violence against women, homelessness, mental health services, 40 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 2: and failures in our country's support systems. Today we're speaking 41 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 2: to Courtney's father, John Heron, who as a lawyer himself, 42 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:38,360 Speaker 2: is appalled at the lack of justice he's seen his 43 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:44,080 Speaker 2: daughter receive in our court systems. He joins us. Now, John, 44 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 2: thank you for joining us on True Crime Conversations today. 45 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 2: I'd like to start by sharing with the listeners a 46 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:54,359 Speaker 2: bit more about your daughter, Courtney Heron. Can you tell 47 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 2: us about your fondest memory that kind of comes to 48 00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 2: mind when you think of her. 49 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 1: I'd all parents and fathers, Probably the moment she was 50 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 1: born and then raising as a toddler, all the little 51 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 1: things around that, when a brother was born, and there's 52 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: types of types of events, and probably the last time 53 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: she hugged me. 54 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 2: What kind of child was she like? What was she into? 55 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:24,359 Speaker 1: She was very creative, effervescent child. She loved to explore, 56 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: look and learn new things. She spoke two languages when 57 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:33,239 Speaker 1: she was two three years old, so she spoke Greek. 58 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: She spent a bit of time in Greece. But yeah, 59 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: really sensitive little girl because she was the firstborn. So 60 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 1: firstborn girls, there's a lot of stats on you know, 61 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 1: how their react or mirror the father whatever it may be. 62 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 1: But you just remember as your first born. 63 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 2: You mentioned a brother. Does she have other siblings? 64 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, she's got a twenty seven year old, twenty eight, sorry, 65 00:03:57,880 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 1: twenty one and. 66 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 2: Fourteen year Oh so they were would have been quite little. Yes, yeah, 67 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 2: I just want to share a few more stories about her. 68 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 2: What do you kind of miss about Courtney? 69 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:16,160 Speaker 1: The dry sense of humor and stirring me up. There 70 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: was a lot of that with Courtney. Look the time 71 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: that she went to food Tech and made this huge 72 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 1: strawberry type sunday for me and me being lactose and 73 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 1: tylerant had to run through. 74 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 2: You still laid it though. 75 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: That's why as a dad you're compelled to eat it. 76 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 1: So I didn't go down that well. And like she 77 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:44,279 Speaker 1: laughed for about twenty minutes of that. 78 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 2: That's a beautiful memory. Did Courtney have dreams? What kind 79 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 2: of career was she kind of hoping for? When she 80 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 2: was younger? 81 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: She was really leaning towards social work and had been 82 00:04:56,839 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 1: for several years, and so she was gearing as school 83 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:03,280 Speaker 1: subjects earlier. And then she had a stint with as 84 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 1: it was called at the time, DHS Child Protection and 85 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:10,799 Speaker 1: that really stimulated her so that was her early early 86 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 1: career path that she wanted to go into. 87 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 2: Tell me about when Courtney kind of started to get 88 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:18,599 Speaker 2: involved in drugs and alcohol. How did that come about? 89 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 1: I think as a young child with divorce, she was 90 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 1: affected by that and so being torn between schools and 91 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:31,920 Speaker 1: parents and that type of thing does leave children much 92 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 1: more vulnerable. And that happened in the late teens, probably 93 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 1: around fifteen sixteen. 94 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 2: And it got quite serious addiction wise, didn't it. 95 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: When she went to a twenties. There was more episodes 96 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: of when she was in the late teens, and then 97 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:53,840 Speaker 1: at eighteen, for example, there was a few episodes with methamphetamines. 98 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 1: So yeah, they were on and off, and it's not 99 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: as if it was as like condiction in people's minds 100 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:05,679 Speaker 1: might be that someone's for want of better term, incapacitated. 101 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:07,160 Speaker 1: But there was a lot of incidents in the mid 102 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 1: twenties around that. 103 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 2: What was it like as her dad watching her go 104 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 2: down that kind of path. 105 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: Well, obviously answer is it's really hard, but there's in 106 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:19,600 Speaker 1: many ways there's often not a lot you can do 107 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 1: about it. You can try as much when you've got 108 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 1: much more control as a teenager, as I did because 109 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 1: she lived with me almost all the time when she 110 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 1: was a mid to late teenager. So I had lots 111 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:35,159 Speaker 1: of incidents at school with that issue, trying to work 112 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: with counselors at school and the like. So I changed 113 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: schools a few times for her and on that basis, 114 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 1: So she ended up at Fitzroy High, which she really 115 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:47,119 Speaker 1: slotted into quite well. And then she'd have a purple patch. 116 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 1: She had a really good purple patch around that time 117 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 1: when she when she worked, So that gave us some 118 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:57,280 Speaker 1: impetence to sort of go on the straight and narrow. 119 00:06:58,000 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 2: You say that you had a lot more control when 120 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:05,600 Speaker 2: she was obviously under eighteen, when she was an adult, 121 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 2: What was your relationship like with her? Did you see 122 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:08,360 Speaker 2: her much? 123 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: No, I didn't see that much beyond when she was 124 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: like nineteen into the twenties. And again, there's not a 125 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 1: lot you can do when you have a child when 126 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 1: they're an adult, you can't. And that is a wider 127 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 1: problem that you can't really call on help unless they 128 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: accept it. 129 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 2: Tell us about what twenty nineteen looked like for her, 130 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 2: obviously before everything happened, But what kind of place was 131 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 2: she in in twenty nineteen? 132 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: She had some in the early twenty nineteen. She had 133 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: some dragon issues around in February and she seemed to 134 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:44,239 Speaker 1: sort of pull out of it by the time around 135 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 1: the time of death. 136 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 2: Heare, is that when she ended up going to a 137 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 2: psychiatric ward. Yes, tell me about that ward, because as 138 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 2: well as everything else we're going to talk about. You know, 139 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 2: a psychiatric ward is supposed to help you, but it 140 00:07:57,840 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 2: ended up kind of causing a lot of harm for 141 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 2: your daughter as well. 142 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 1: Possibly, Yeah, Like it wasn't voluntarily so then, but she 143 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: discharged herself voluntarily. So if it's hard to say this 144 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 1: do harm. But again, like trying to search for young 145 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:17,679 Speaker 1: adults to some type of rehabilitation rather than psychiatric wards 146 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 1: very difficult unless they're going to cooperate with you. 147 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 2: So she discharged herself from there. Yeah, I've heard that 148 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 2: that's quite common as well. You have to kind of straight. 149 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, again, there's not a lot you can do. There's 150 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 1: a finite time. 151 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:37,959 Speaker 2: Do you remember your last interaction with Courtney? Yeah, can 152 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 2: you tell me about it? 153 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:40,839 Speaker 1: I pumped into it on a tramp. 154 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:44,439 Speaker 2: Really yeah, in Melbourne. 155 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, in Melbourne, just before chapter. 156 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,680 Speaker 2: Was it a good interaction? Do you have fond memories. 157 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, of course always. 158 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 2: John. How did you find out that Courtney had been killed? 159 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 1: That was a knock on the door on a Sunday 160 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: morning from the homicide squad. Would have been about nine 161 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 1: thirty in the morning. It's knock on the door, and 162 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 1: they said who they were. Sometimes I assumed it's something 163 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 1: to do with my work as a lawyer, So that 164 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 1: was my first thought. 165 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 2: How did they share that with you? How much detail 166 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 2: did they give you? 167 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 1: The only thing that was very specific was that this 168 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:32,079 Speaker 1: was a line that came out with the police later. 169 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:38,080 Speaker 1: They just used the term she died of a horrendous bashing. Okay, 170 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 1: So that's all they said as far as the specifics go. 171 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 1: The killer had been caught at that stage, so homicide, 172 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:49,439 Speaker 1: come to tell you. But they're also the same detectives 173 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 1: are on the heart for the killer that afternoon when 174 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 1: they did. 175 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 2: Pick him up, and they informed you once they had 176 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 2: someone in custody. 177 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, they're really good. Yeah. They caught me straight away 178 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:01,680 Speaker 1: that they'd taken someone in custody and they suspect that 179 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 1: it was him and he'd made admissions. So that was 180 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 1: the Sunday and then we're in the ramand court at 181 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:11,079 Speaker 1: magistrate's court the next morning at nine thirty. 182 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 2: You're a lawyer, so a courtroom is not unfamiliar to you, 183 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 2: but I can only imagine that Monday morning must have 184 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 2: felt very different. 185 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, the whole period around that you're in a bit 186 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 1: of a day is in any case, and the other 187 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: thing that you keep thinking I talked to a lot 188 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 1: of other people about is is you just wish it 189 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 1: just wasn't happening, and you just hope that it was 190 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 1: a nightmare that you could wake up from. 191 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 2: On the Monday morning, You're in there to kind of 192 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 2: see this man go through the first steps of the 193 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 2: court process. Did you know that name? Was he familiar 194 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 2: to you? Had they told you anything? 195 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:54,079 Speaker 1: No? Not at that time that we didn't know he was. 196 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 1: We didn't go into the courtroom. The police kept us 197 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 1: out there because there's a lot of media, so that 198 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: the police in general trying to keep us away from 199 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: the media, and at that stage they were everywhere, so 200 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 1: to speak, there was an intense media coverage, particularly that week. 201 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 2: I know that you said when you first saw Henry's name, 202 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:15,719 Speaker 2: you didn't know who he was, But it turns out 203 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:17,679 Speaker 2: you actually did have a connection to that family. 204 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: That's right. His father was a friend of mine back 205 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:26,840 Speaker 1: in the sorry at nineteen eighties, and he actually attended 206 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 1: our wedding in Melbourne. 207 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,320 Speaker 2: Have you had any contact with his family since everything 208 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 2: that happened? 209 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 1: No? No, not at all, not at all. 210 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 2: How does it feel for you knowing that you had 211 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:41,560 Speaker 2: this person's parents at your wedding? 212 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 1: Look, I know his father and family, and there are 213 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 1: a good bunch of people, and from what I could see, 214 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 1: Hammond was very difficult when he became an adult. This 215 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 1: is right. I referred back to there's not a lot 216 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: necessarily that you could do, so they're not I'm not 217 00:11:58,040 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 1: going to say they're. 218 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 2: Responsible to have known them, to know the family, to 219 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 2: have them at your wedding. You have to be pretty 220 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 2: close to be at someone's wedding. 221 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 1: Yes, I haven't seen him since the Hammond's father since 222 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 1: the wedding, But yeah, that now. I didn't put two 223 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:18,839 Speaker 1: and two together to a mutual friend of ours. I 224 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:22,079 Speaker 1: bumped into a mutual friend from university in up in 225 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: Sydney a couple of years ago and he just casually 226 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 1: mentioned the Hammond family and then it triggered. It is 227 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: that ex's you talk about? Sun and he went, yeah, 228 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 1: and that's when that's the only time it triggered. That's 229 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 1: the first time that it triggered who it actually was. Wow, 230 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 1: So it's only a mutual friend of mine mentioning that, 231 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: and that was probably three or four. 232 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 2: Years as a victim's family. What kind of support were 233 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 2: you given as you entered the court system and watched 234 00:12:58,480 --> 00:12:59,320 Speaker 2: it all unfold? 235 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 1: A long journey. So the police were good the first 236 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 1: few days and then a few phone calls, but then 237 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: they literally vanished, so we didn't really hear from them 238 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 1: as far as that's concerned. Down the track, I met 239 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 1: up with the Officer Public Prosecutions for the audience I 240 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 1: call them the DPP very quickly and they were sort 241 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 1: of giving me a little bit of background, probably in 242 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 1: the first few months now and then that's through information 243 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 1: as far as the case goes, but from victims support. 244 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:41,560 Speaker 1: I'd actually done a lot of processing for victims of 245 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 1: crime locally in the massive Rangers, so I contacted them 246 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:51,960 Speaker 1: as myself directly as a victim, and so they came 247 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:55,559 Speaker 1: over to see me. The same person that I'd breathed 248 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: many times in helping others. I initially she provided and 249 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 1: set up some counseling services the like. Then, probably two 250 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:09,560 Speaker 1: or three months into it that, particularly as an officer, 251 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 1: she worked for anglic Care because victims of crimes outsourced 252 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 1: that sort of support. So we were searching for some 253 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 1: counseling support, grief support for all of us. But she went, 254 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 1: I leave and it just fell off a cliff. So 255 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 1: at the time, I was also working for the Department 256 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 1: of Justice and they manage victims of crime. So I 257 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 1: noted in my workplace that they'd had their own counseling sessions, etc. 258 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 1: Which weren't necessary available to me. So I said, could 259 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 1: I go and see someone to get some support? And 260 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 1: I saw the executive director who said, oh, look, we 261 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: can't really do that much for you, but if you're 262 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 1: in trouble, what don't you call the Men's helpline? Okay, 263 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 1: so idea. I was a bit shocked myself when I 264 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: heard that. So we're in a bit of limbo with 265 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 1: that until I write a few letters to the right people, 266 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 1: and then I contacted another victims of the crime lawyer 267 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: who organized a local person for us. So that it 268 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 1: was a rocky road, as it is for all people 269 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 1: in my. 270 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 2: Situation, and I guess you're in a situation where you 271 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 2: know the right places to write the letters and who 272 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 2: to contact. Most families would have no idea, They've never 273 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 2: had any No, they don't. 274 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 1: I talked to a lot of them and it ranges 275 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 1: from zero to actually hostility to them, and it's very 276 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 1: sparse on the ground. There's been some activity and re 277 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 1: form and actually sit on the Lawn Institute's Victims of 278 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: Crime Advisory Group and there's been a lot of strides 279 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 1: in the last five or six years. But it was 280 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 1: pro rudimentary Victoria at the time, and definitely there was 281 00:15:56,760 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 1: no guide for people. And prior to working as a lawyer, 282 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 1: I knew that there was pamphlets about all at the 283 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 1: police stations and that was it. So soone again I 284 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 1: had a client and I was on legal aid, got 285 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: stabbed and he came to me with a pamphlet the 286 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 1: police have given him. He was a refugee, this is 287 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 1: what I do with this. So I sort of talked 288 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: him through it. But yeah, it's quite bewildering, and that 289 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 1: the thing that people want most is some type professor said, 290 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 1: grief counseling and support, and that's really that's very very 291 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 1: sporadic at best. 292 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 2: Is it true as well? That and I've heard this 293 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 2: from a number of families that you don't find out 294 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 2: the details of what happened to your loved one until 295 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 2: you're sitting in court. 296 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 1: That's true. Yeah, So i'd heard a lot about that 297 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: in the final hearing, but a little bit further. The 298 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:53,479 Speaker 1: DPP was quite misleading and what they told us. For example, 299 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: I said, did the killer have a lot of prize? 300 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 1: And they dismissed it? And I said, oh that. They 301 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 1: said drugs and involved. I said, did you do a 302 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 1: pharmacology test on him? And they said no, but we 303 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 1: did one on Courtney, which I was smart, But that's 304 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 1: the sort of attitude. But basically they're just trying to 305 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 1: process you out with as little resistance as possible. And 306 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 1: then I had some zoom meetings throughout the year with 307 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 1: the because of that stage he pled it was pleading 308 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:30,639 Speaker 1: not guilty mental impairment. They've got a special unit for that, 309 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 1: the DPP and a special individual, so they sort of 310 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 1: slot you in the corner, have a couple of zoom meetings, 311 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 1: and half the people if they turn up, they turn up. 312 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:44,159 Speaker 1: As I said, the police in turn at all and 313 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 1: I didn't really. I also had a one on one 314 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: with the DPP herself, and I sort of was trying 315 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:57,360 Speaker 1: to get subtraction of what's going on, and she hung 316 00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:01,119 Speaker 1: up on me. But that was not unusual from what 317 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:04,920 Speaker 1: I hear, and I believe after that she didn't bother 318 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 1: talking to victims anymore because it was just too triggering. 319 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 1: But as far as the details go, we didn't know anything. 320 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 1: A friend of mine, Donnishtolsenburg, if you've come across heir, 321 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: she runs a National homes collective and I've known her 322 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:22,920 Speaker 1: for a while. She did a GoFundMe thing for the 323 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 1: courtney's funeral. Then I became class friends with her and 324 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 1: I sort of help her out legally. But anyway, she 325 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 1: has a staff member who Hamm and the killer had 326 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 1: resided next door in a restaurant in Smith Street in 327 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 1: northcolk So she unpacked the entire sort of sequence of 328 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: what was going on with him then when he got 329 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:52,199 Speaker 1: locked and after and none of that I was told whatsoever, 330 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:57,680 Speaker 1: in fact sort of like brushed away. And then after 331 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:01,920 Speaker 1: I called the current affair, then the reporter there, Sam Puciari, 332 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 1: showed more alluded to all of the Kellers priors and 333 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 1: all his activities and such like that, so that was 334 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 1: like denied to us. 335 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:14,159 Speaker 2: Here, can we talk about some of those prize for 336 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:19,919 Speaker 2: people who are unaware because Hammond had been in prison 337 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:23,360 Speaker 2: like seven weeks before the murder. 338 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:27,639 Speaker 1: That's right, yeah, yeah, so that only came Well, basically 339 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: I had the prize. This is an interesting thing too, 340 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:31,919 Speaker 1: because I asked the Supreme I wrote to the Supreme 341 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 1: Court judge that he was released on what you call 342 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:38,120 Speaker 1: a community corrections order and it has all these conditions 343 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 1: and he was released in no fixed dress. So as now, 344 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:48,199 Speaker 1: the media had copies of that corrections order. Now, I 345 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 1: tried to get it off the judge and he denied me. 346 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:52,719 Speaker 1: So as a lawyer, he can't really do that. So 347 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 1: I had other lawyers right to them, and they obviously 348 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 1: knew it was going on, so they denied giving it 349 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: to them as well. Okay, to right to the head 350 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:04,639 Speaker 1: of the County Court kid and just a kid, and say, look, 351 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 1: you have an obligation bar Black to give it to me, 352 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: and he did eventually. But that's that's the length I 353 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: have to go to find the corrections order. Okay, now 354 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 1: the corrections interview the media tried to get out of 355 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: corrections themselves, and they wouldn't give it the reasons why 356 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:26,160 Speaker 1: he was released, as I'm talking about now, that's never 357 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 1: never well to a small degree that's been released, but 358 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 1: the circumstances I had to dig around and find out 359 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 1: myself about what he was doing. Now, after I appeared 360 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:40,640 Speaker 1: on a current affair, the police then called and said 361 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 1: I will come and see you. Because I then wrote 362 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 1: to the Attorney General and the commissioner to say, look 363 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 1: when I'm told, we're not being told anything. And then 364 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:53,399 Speaker 1: a senior detective came and still in my office, opened 365 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,440 Speaker 1: up his prior listing and I saw into it. So 366 00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 1: he had a lot of offenses in New South Wales 367 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 1: against women, some fraud offenses and a lot of offenses 368 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 1: in Victoria against women. But the main one was the 369 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 1: description of how he'd landed up in jail and attacked 370 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:14,359 Speaker 1: the woman and I was killed. But that after that offense, 371 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 1: who was released early and then given that community corrections 372 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 1: order just for the viewers information. Community corrections orders like 373 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 1: you're doing jail, but you're in the community, so it's 374 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:27,880 Speaker 1: expected that you're going to commit crimes. 375 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:30,359 Speaker 2: And as you said, it was a violent assault. He 376 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 2: did ten months and then he was back on the street. 377 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 1: Ye, a bit less than that. He was released a 378 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: couple of months earlier. 379 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:36,880 Speaker 3: Below. 380 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:39,440 Speaker 2: What was it like for you though, when you found 381 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,360 Speaker 2: out the circumstances and that this man had all these 382 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:43,680 Speaker 2: priors had been released. 383 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:47,920 Speaker 1: It drives you at that stage you'd be grieved to 384 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 1: a bit of a lot of space of anger. So 385 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: my reaction was to go on media, fight the regime, 386 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 1: help people out where I could, because I felt, fine, 387 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 1: do it. Who else is going to do it? 388 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 2: You're listening to true crime conversations with me, Jemma Bath. 389 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:14,159 Speaker 2: I'm speaking with Courtney Heron's dad, John Heron, about the 390 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,880 Speaker 2: murder of his daughter. Up next, I asked John about 391 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,920 Speaker 2: the night before Courtney was killed, when she met Hammond, 392 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 2: a homeless man, and showed him an act of kindness. 393 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 2: Reading about Courtney's movements the night before her death, I 394 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 2: was really struck by her kindness towards Hammond because she 395 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 2: barely knew this man. She invited him back to her 396 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 2: friend's house, she bought him dinner. He was homeless at 397 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 2: the time. It says a lot about her character. 398 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 1: Totally. Yeah, that doesn't surprise me. She'd give a last 399 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,399 Speaker 1: five dollars to someone if somebody needed it. That was 400 00:22:55,480 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 1: always how she was growing up, and her kindness always 401 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 1: shone through. Maybe it was just you can't put a 402 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 1: finger on it and say that's why she was killed. 403 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:07,679 Speaker 1: But she lived a life that way and that was 404 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 1: that was the blessing of her, her being around us. 405 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 1: Like I did see those videos of that. The police 406 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:16,920 Speaker 1: only released those until I'd been on television and wrote 407 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 1: to the. 408 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 2: Attorney General videos of her, videos of her. 409 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 1: That some friend had taken a mobile phone recording of 410 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 1: him back at their place, and also the video of 411 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: the vegetarian restaurant in. 412 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 2: Fitzroan, but she took him to Haven't. Eventually kind of 413 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 2: said that he did it because someone Courtney had wronged 414 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,479 Speaker 2: him in a past life and killed his wife and 415 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 2: he was getting revenge. You know, a very strange story. 416 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 2: What was your take on that. 417 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,679 Speaker 1: Well, I'll refer back to when he was picked up. 418 00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 1: He's very very clued in, so he'd had her possessions 419 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 1: on him. He was lining up at the Salvation Army 420 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 1: getting some food in Burke Street in Melbourne, so he 421 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,160 Speaker 1: knew what he was doing. He got nabbed by the police. 422 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 1: He then thought about it, denied it, then he admitted it, 423 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:16,960 Speaker 1: and then he asked for a lawyer, an expensive lawyer 424 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: that he used the last time to get released early, 425 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: so he knew it was going on. And then apparently 426 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,439 Speaker 1: then he asked them what are the defenses to murder? Okay? 427 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:29,919 Speaker 1: So if you ask me, like he knew what was 428 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 1: going on, and I refer back to the transcripts of 429 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 1: his trial when he was released his previous attack, and 430 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:39,199 Speaker 1: the same sort of thing happens. He's sort of like 431 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: nose his ad and then all of a sudden Odin 432 00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 1: appears down from the trees and commands he does these. 433 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:49,160 Speaker 2: Types of things because he did end up using mental 434 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,679 Speaker 2: impairments successfully as a defense. So you're saying you believe 435 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:54,439 Speaker 2: he was faking that. 436 00:24:55,600 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 1: It's hard, Look, he don't. The definition of mental impairment 437 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 1: is that you don't know what you're doing or you 438 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: don't know what you're doing is wrong. Okay, So that 439 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:14,160 Speaker 1: is the definition that is using in the legislation. So 440 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 1: I'd ask anyone listening from what I just said, if 441 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 1: you would conclude that that fits that slot. But then 442 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:25,200 Speaker 1: all you need to do is to convict someone in 443 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:29,880 Speaker 1: Victoria or plead that is, just get a psych report 444 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: very quickly that says that in Victoria there tends to 445 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 1: be go to psychiatrist that does those reports, and they 446 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:40,159 Speaker 1: tend to seem to get like one hundred percent result 447 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 1: that that person would be not guilty mental impairment. So 448 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 1: it's just rush through. Once that it's raised, normally, the 449 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:50,680 Speaker 1: DPP will just agree to it straightaway. 450 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:52,439 Speaker 2: Really, I thought it was hard to use it as 451 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 2: a defense. 452 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 1: It is hard to use what's called Verdun's rules. If 453 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 1: you want a diminished sentence down the train, okay, But 454 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: if you're going to plead knock healthy mental impairment, the 455 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,359 Speaker 1: statistics are that will go through. Now, I'll give you 456 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,880 Speaker 1: an identical case. Is Gage Sulus you know the berg 457 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 1: Street more Yes, no different from Courtney's killer. It was 458 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 1: on ice and mental health, et cetera, et cetera. And 459 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 1: just ask yourself simply, why did the state throw the 460 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: book at him, including the head of forensic air rocked 461 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:27,680 Speaker 1: up and said he was fine to sit trial, and 462 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: yet all Courtney's case and then dozens of others since then, 463 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,680 Speaker 1: it's just brushed away. In five minutes. Her trial lasted. 464 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 2: Fifteen minutes Courtney's trial. 465 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 1: Less than what I took to killer. 466 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 2: What do you mean so they just rushed through the 467 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,920 Speaker 2: court proceedings. Why would they do that just to get it. 468 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: Out of the way. Frankly, and I'm just being honest 469 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,959 Speaker 1: today to say, look at this palpable nervousness in the 470 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,360 Speaker 1: court when I was watching it, that they just wanted 471 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 1: to get it out and they wanted less media attentions possible. 472 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:02,160 Speaker 2: So well, we've got to remember that a woman dies 473 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 2: at the hands of someone she knows or a stranger 474 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 2: every week in Australia. 475 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 1: That's right, that's right. It's not slowing down, and in 476 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:17,680 Speaker 1: fact it's increasing. So there's a simple there's a simple explanation. 477 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:22,880 Speaker 1: There's many explanations, but the main one is that perpetrators 478 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 1: to kill women like this are far more frequent beyond 479 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,640 Speaker 1: the streets than being the treated or locked up. It's 480 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 1: just that simple. So the state doesn't want to put 481 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 1: a light that They have two sides of the story here. 482 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 1: One is that yeah, they're tough on crime or against 483 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 1: finance its women. But there's another political echelon of the 484 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,119 Speaker 1: government that wants to get these people out in the 485 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: street as quick as possible. 486 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 2: So that is the hospital that Hammond was sent too. 487 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 2: So he wasn't sent to prison. He was sent to 488 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 2: a psychiatric facility until there was. 489 00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 1: A bit available thom Assembly, Can. 490 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 2: You tell us what that sentence was, because it's not 491 00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,120 Speaker 2: like you get, you know, twenty years and then you've 492 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 2: got a parole and you've got it. Kind of works 493 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 2: differently when you have this mental impairment sentence. 494 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 1: That's right. So in the legislation it has nominal twenty five. Okay, 495 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,199 Speaker 1: so what that means to the listener. Nominal means like 496 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 1: it's not fixed. So even if you go to Friends 497 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 1: Care's website, they'll say that the average time in there 498 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:23,200 Speaker 1: is about five years. So they've got about one hundred 499 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 1: and forty clients as they call them or patients, and 500 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,120 Speaker 1: probably about five of them have done the twenty five 501 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 1: years and they don't want to be released anyway because 502 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 1: the conditions are quite good in there. So they have supervised, 503 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 1: unsupervised time out in the community. They go for coffee 504 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 1: in the mornings, some of them have jobs locally, some 505 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: of them are given mobile phones. I've talked to one 506 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 1: of the Canaharis family where their nephew that had killed 507 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,600 Speaker 1: their parents had a mobile phone was ringing the mobile 508 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 1: phone supply by Thomas and Link to harass them and 509 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: then had asked them on the phone to meet him 510 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 1: out side Thomassembling because that was part of his therapy 511 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 1: to have him released early. Then he was on cop 512 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 1: and he attacked a person with the Mashiti. When was 513 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 1: that released? 514 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 2: All of those freedoms that you mentioned, does Hammond have 515 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 2: any of those? 516 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, he was out released. He my understanding here that 517 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 1: he'd been attacked in jail so that they watch him 518 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,360 Speaker 1: carefully for one reason, because he draws a lot of 519 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 1: media attention. So if you don't draw media attention, then 520 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 1: they're not too worried and I'll let you go. So 521 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:35,480 Speaker 1: he got photographed at a restaurant that court and I 522 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:39,640 Speaker 1: used to go to in North by Courtney's friends and 523 00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 1: that made the media. So they got to be coy 524 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 1: with that and like didn't let him out for a 525 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:48,880 Speaker 1: while on that basis. Now fast forward to November last year, 526 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,480 Speaker 1: they tried to get a suppression order on Hammond. So 527 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: what that means, suppression order is the first step to 528 00:29:55,960 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 1: release them. Because when there's a suppression order, it means 529 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 1: that you can't report, so if he gets released, then 530 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 1: there's no record, let alone the fact that when they're 531 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 1: released from there after killing people, they don't even have 532 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 1: a criminal record. So you could hire them in your 533 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 1: studio and you wouldn't know. 534 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 2: So the idea is to let them kind of slip 535 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 2: into society and have a new chance at life. 536 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,880 Speaker 1: I don't think anyone I've spoken to is against that's 537 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 1: been in my situation, against recidivism and genuine remorse. Now, 538 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 1: for example, if you want to talk about Hammond, he's 539 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 1: absolutely ropable that he's in there now for so long, 540 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 1: and he probably blames me and others for doing that. 541 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 1: So there's no forget remorse or anything like that. But 542 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 1: what is rehabilitation? Okay, so that's addressing drug problems alcohol, 543 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 1: and that's hop thing, and that does happen to Tom Assembling. 544 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 1: Although because years ago I worked for the Department for 545 00:30:57,040 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 1: Forensic Health for the state government, so I know the 546 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 1: system that were set up, example for drugging. Alcohol counseling 547 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 1: is voluntary, so it has a less than fifty percent 548 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 1: attendance rate the courses they run. So if you don't 549 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:11,000 Speaker 1: want to guard. You don't go. 550 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 2: That's insane. 551 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 1: That's the way it operates. Be here all day talking 552 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 1: about that. But the whole game is for this from 553 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 1: the state government. The regime is just to keep all 554 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 1: this quiet to the case where forensic cares engage lawyers 555 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:30,040 Speaker 1: extra lawyers to bat off bad publicity. 556 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 2: That suppression order you mentioned, you stopped that from happening, 557 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 2: didn't you. So basically he wasn't approved to be able 558 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,640 Speaker 2: to not have it reported on it and he is 559 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:41,640 Speaker 2: still in there. He hasn't been released. 560 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 1: That's right. So my understanding is that they're lying law 561 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 1: at the moment. The thing will be to let it pass. 562 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 1: But that, like the actual hearing was a smosso he 563 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 1: turned up with all hidn't turn arm, but they had 564 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 1: a very senior silk legal aid representing him. But there's 565 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 1: I had to appear myself and I'm totally abused by 566 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:11,080 Speaker 1: the judge at the time, why because of who I am. 567 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 1: So he didn't want any He was going on about 568 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:19,120 Speaker 1: the publicity that the hearing had attracted. He was waving 569 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 1: a piece of paper around that some journalists had written 570 00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 1: saying saying some some things he didn't like about the hearing. 571 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 1: So if you want to know what he what he 572 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:32,160 Speaker 1: did to is that as a lawyer, I'm allowed to 573 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:36,000 Speaker 1: appear in the court. So straight away his associated came 574 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 1: up and said, who are you? Why are you here? 575 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 1: So I flashed my law institute card because I knew 576 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:43,200 Speaker 1: he'd do that, and so that was all right. So 577 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 1: later on, after he shot through the solicitor for the media, 578 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 1: then he said to me, there's another person hit the bar. 579 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 1: Who is that meaning me? Okay? So then he got 580 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 1: stuck into me for a few like unrelated issues until 581 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 1: I realized I wasn't going to go anywhere. I said, yes, 582 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 1: you're on, I'm sorry. 583 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 2: I After the break, John opens up about the justice 584 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 2: systems shortcomings and the devastating consequences for women who were 585 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 2: left without help. You and I understand why I have 586 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 2: a lot of anger and kind of criticism towards the 587 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 2: law system. Prior to this happening to your daughter, Could 588 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,240 Speaker 2: you see all of these holes or is it only 589 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 2: once you were in the system as a loved one 590 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 2: a victim's family that you kind of really saw how 591 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,240 Speaker 2: it can work against you. 592 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:39,479 Speaker 1: Probably more the latter, Yeah, certainly in that mental impairment space. 593 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:45,200 Speaker 1: But I dealt with victims of crime and intervention orders 594 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:49,240 Speaker 1: and family violence well before or in this situation, Like, 595 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 1: I knew the system well and I'd work within it, 596 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:55,240 Speaker 1: so I knew which way to go. So over time, look, 597 00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 1: I've realized my best use of my time is to 598 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,720 Speaker 1: help people out pro bono that are going through the 599 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 1: same thing, which I've helped many families do because they're 600 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:08,960 Speaker 1: bewildered in the when obviously these events and their children 601 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 1: are murdered. They don't know where to go, and they've 602 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 1: got a system that's shunting them away, and that way 603 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 1: as a path of least resistance. And the thing that 604 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:24,160 Speaker 1: when you've got a regime that you've got a victoria, 605 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 1: one thing it doesn't like is a court of public opinion. 606 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,359 Speaker 1: So how the system may operate, that's all well and good. 607 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:33,840 Speaker 1: But a program like this and others that tell people 608 00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:36,839 Speaker 1: this is how it does happen, and that it could 609 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:41,520 Speaker 1: happen to them, that that's what the government doesn't like, 610 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:45,400 Speaker 1: and people operating within the system. It's not any type 611 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 1: of tin hat conspiracy typing. It's really what I explain 612 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:52,879 Speaker 1: to people that that doesn't exist. This is a whole 613 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:56,839 Speaker 1: lot of people appointed to their jobs and Australia white 614 00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 1: thing about this epidemic of risk management. So all they're 615 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:02,520 Speaker 1: doing is is covering their own jobs, well paid jobs, 616 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 1: and hoping it just goes away. They just go through 617 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:10,200 Speaker 1: the motions, let's say. But then as far as making 618 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,200 Speaker 1: impact or helping people out, that's just absolutely zero. 619 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:17,120 Speaker 2: So that's kind of what you've dedicated your career too, now, 620 00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:17,759 Speaker 2: am I right? 621 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:23,160 Speaker 1: I won't say, well, it's a large part of my life. Yeah, okay, 622 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 1: I think at up until a few years ago, I 623 00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:29,000 Speaker 1: was everywhere as I could, but I was getting calls 624 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,080 Speaker 1: from all around Australia and I just couldn't handle it. 625 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:35,239 Speaker 1: There was just so much grief out there. And so 626 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 1: I'll really this stage limited to people that call me 627 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:44,120 Speaker 1: and need help directly, so I'll do that, and then 628 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 1: my general law practice with family violence is very busy, 629 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:51,720 Speaker 1: so I often pick up the slack that the police 630 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:55,520 Speaker 1: have dropped for women that are going through this, and 631 00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,560 Speaker 1: a lot of your listeners will know as women like 632 00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:01,600 Speaker 1: how they've dropped by the authorities and the police when 633 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,319 Speaker 1: they're in their situations and there's no one there to 634 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:09,000 Speaker 1: help them or or combat for them push. 635 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 2: Their case, given what happened to your daughter. Is it 636 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 2: hard to swim in this soup every day? 637 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:19,160 Speaker 1: Sometimes yeah, it look to be frank and sometimes I 638 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:23,200 Speaker 1: can just handle it professionally, and other times it's really distraught. 639 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 1: Particularly want to help the Hamker family, Miriam Humker who 640 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:33,080 Speaker 1: had been killed and the suspects now was found guilty. 641 00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:38,480 Speaker 1: But what the authorities did to that family was just reprehensible, 642 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:43,280 Speaker 1: including putting intervention orders out on the family, on behalf 643 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:45,120 Speaker 1: of the killer's family. 644 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:47,719 Speaker 2: And that's recent, isn't it. 645 00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:50,879 Speaker 1: Yeah. I had to go to court and I made 646 00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:54,920 Speaker 1: a threat from the police threatened me for defending them, 647 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,719 Speaker 1: and then when I said, I spoke to a head 648 00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:00,680 Speaker 1: of missing persons around me and warned me off as well. 649 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:04,360 Speaker 1: So I said, that's fine, but I'm going to have 650 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,040 Speaker 1: to get your people in the witness box about why 651 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:09,200 Speaker 1: you're harassing this family. And it's the only time i've 652 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:10,720 Speaker 1: seen them drop an order someone. 653 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:15,440 Speaker 2: Have you seen any improvement in the way the Victorian 654 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:19,359 Speaker 2: system treats victims families since Courtney's murder It has been 655 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 2: nearly seven years now, have you seen improvements. 656 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:28,040 Speaker 1: There's been good improvements, particularly the last two years on 657 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:31,880 Speaker 1: victims of crime and getting a grip on that. So 658 00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:36,040 Speaker 1: I definitely say that I'm going to say overall that 659 00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:41,240 Speaker 1: there's been a good societal shift against violence against women 660 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,239 Speaker 1: across the board where it's just not tolerant, that's detectable, 661 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:47,439 Speaker 1: it's not fair, and a lot of people in working 662 00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:49,800 Speaker 1: in the Victorian system. If I say that it's not working, 663 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:52,800 Speaker 1: because there's a lot of great people, the court liaison officers, 664 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:57,520 Speaker 1: with the police, with the police, the family violence operators 665 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,680 Speaker 1: and the lower level police, they're very, very good, but 666 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,040 Speaker 1: they're slipping through the cracks all the time because I 667 00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:05,840 Speaker 1: in my own practice I like to pick up and 668 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:08,000 Speaker 1: protect women and put orders out for them with the 669 00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:10,959 Speaker 1: police won't do it. And then there's a currenter's court. 670 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:15,040 Speaker 1: Well you know that's a disaster and what's happened there 671 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:18,560 Speaker 1: the last few years, So that's not going anywhere. So 672 00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:21,200 Speaker 1: I thought that it's a very divid of patches that 673 00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:26,560 Speaker 1: have improved, but stacistically, women are getting killed more frequently, 674 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:28,240 Speaker 1: So I can't be working. 675 00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:32,000 Speaker 2: I want you to put your father hat on here. 676 00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:35,480 Speaker 2: Not being able to make a victim impact statement. Seeing 677 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:40,080 Speaker 2: Hammond sent to a I guess a cushier kind of 678 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:46,640 Speaker 2: sentence seeing place to live? How did that impact you? 679 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,640 Speaker 2: Kind of seeing how he was treated. 680 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:54,239 Speaker 1: I'll speak on behalf a lot of victims. We don't 681 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:56,400 Speaker 1: really want to see the perpetrator like burned at the 682 00:38:56,440 --> 00:39:01,000 Speaker 1: state type situation. Genuinely, everybody wants reform and that the 683 00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:05,240 Speaker 1: person could reform and become a useful member of society. 684 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 1: And I feel the same way. Okay, So again it's 685 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:12,920 Speaker 1: not Hammond. Hammond's playing, not playing the system because he's 686 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:16,719 Speaker 1: probably not smart enough, but the system's playing him. And 687 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:20,440 Speaker 1: here's his part. He as a cog going through of 688 00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:26,240 Speaker 1: someone using the system. So it's not him that I hold. 689 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:30,120 Speaker 1: What he's like, as you describe, is in the quasi 690 00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:32,640 Speaker 1: holiday camp. He gets the releases and this and that, 691 00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:35,400 Speaker 1: he gets the attention, but that's not him doing that. 692 00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:36,760 Speaker 2: It's the system. 693 00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:38,680 Speaker 1: That's what I always say about the justice system. The 694 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:42,000 Speaker 1: justice system works fine. It's the people running it now 695 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:45,560 Speaker 1: is the problem. Okay, it worked fine as it was 696 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:49,759 Speaker 1: for fifty years. Literally they were less violent attacks on 697 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:54,319 Speaker 1: women and then it's still needed reform, but we've gone 698 00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:58,480 Speaker 1: the other way where the only only meaningful reform done 699 00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:02,400 Speaker 1: since Jude marsm is that these people are released earlier 700 00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:05,839 Speaker 1: and more frequent. That's it. That's the only thing that's 701 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:08,200 Speaker 1: happened you can put your finger on. 702 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:11,560 Speaker 2: Okay, So do you think Courtney's voice was lost in 703 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:14,319 Speaker 2: all of this in the process, Not at. 704 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:15,200 Speaker 3: All, No. 705 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:17,480 Speaker 1: I think. Look, the first mission was to sort of 706 00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:22,640 Speaker 1: get to put because now she's a so we say 707 00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:27,040 Speaker 1: she's in the ether so to speak, and online. So 708 00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:30,640 Speaker 1: my view is to sort of generate the impression of 709 00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,279 Speaker 1: what she's really liked, the kind gentle person that she was. 710 00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:37,080 Speaker 1: That's one part of it. The second part is that she, 711 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:40,279 Speaker 1: as you just said, her message was not in vain 712 00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:45,600 Speaker 1: so certainly, and I was visiting a politician a couple 713 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:48,480 Speaker 1: of weeks ago, so they're well aware of what her 714 00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:52,480 Speaker 1: situation is. So the media attention, it's been crucial and 715 00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:58,239 Speaker 1: using her as a shining example of how the system 716 00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:02,680 Speaker 1: failed people and do so. So it is sitting there 717 00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:07,560 Speaker 1: like a beacon. Okay. Once the regime passes, and it 718 00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:12,200 Speaker 1: will then I think her example will be used again 719 00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:16,080 Speaker 1: like others, like other families in my situation, and other 720 00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:20,399 Speaker 1: women that as I said, jul Ma and celess Manner 721 00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,720 Speaker 1: and all these people and the advocacy that their families 722 00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:30,319 Speaker 1: have done will be realized for the for what it 723 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:32,839 Speaker 1: is and what it is when someone is killed in 724 00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:36,080 Speaker 1: this manner, that what our duty society is to try 725 00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:39,600 Speaker 1: and reduce that security and safety is a state issue, 726 00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:43,400 Speaker 1: So the state has to step up and actually carry 727 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:45,600 Speaker 1: out what it says, and at the moment it is 728 00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:47,080 Speaker 1: not carrying out what it says. 729 00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:49,839 Speaker 2: John, You've written a few articles for us here at 730 00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:53,480 Speaker 2: Mama Mia about men's violence against women, about your daughter. 731 00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:58,680 Speaker 2: There aren't many men's voices in this space that allowed. 732 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:01,840 Speaker 2: There are a lot of women. We know what's happening. 733 00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:03,600 Speaker 2: We're talking about it a lot. I write an article 734 00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:07,799 Speaker 2: about this every week. How important is it that we 735 00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,920 Speaker 2: get more people, more men talking. How do we do that? 736 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:15,680 Speaker 1: Look, it's really crucial to have men's voice because men's 737 00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:18,640 Speaker 1: voice carries and resonates with women. Certainly because one thing 738 00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:22,319 Speaker 1: I realized straight away when I was down a path 739 00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:25,919 Speaker 1: of advocacy is what we talk about recided as etc. 740 00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:30,160 Speaker 1: Women are really really scared of a violent offender at 741 00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:33,399 Speaker 1: the top another walk around the city at night. They're 742 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:37,400 Speaker 1: scared of that one really violent offender that can do 743 00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:41,000 Speaker 1: some harm. I call it APEX type offenders, predators. Okay, 744 00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:45,120 Speaker 1: so they want that done. Men's voice wider to other men, 745 00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:50,560 Speaker 1: I think tends to well, it should resonate more with 746 00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:54,040 Speaker 1: violence against women from that aspect, so that they think 747 00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:58,799 Speaker 1: twice when they're in a situation of doing something to 748 00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:02,319 Speaker 1: a woman, that they think about consequences and they think 749 00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:04,640 Speaker 1: about their own behavior, and that's shifting. So that's good. 750 00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,720 Speaker 1: So need and there's more men there, but certainly women 751 00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:11,400 Speaker 1: do need to hear men speak up about these violent offenders. 752 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,839 Speaker 2: It's been nearly seven years. I think we mentioned since 753 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,399 Speaker 2: you lost Courtney. How are you doing twenty twenty six, 754 00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:21,040 Speaker 2: new year, rolling around? How are you. 755 00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:29,880 Speaker 1: Look? Grief is people deal with grief differently. Grief has stages. 756 00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:32,480 Speaker 1: I'll say that. So you know, I said earlier, you've 757 00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:35,920 Speaker 1: been shocked for a few years and you're barely coping. 758 00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:39,040 Speaker 1: So look, I've got a young son that's fourteen, so 759 00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:44,239 Speaker 1: that keeps me focused ongoing and protecting him, getting him 760 00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:47,160 Speaker 1: through life. So that's how I'd say I deal with 761 00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:52,640 Speaker 1: it being busy advocacy. If I had a moment to reflect, 762 00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:53,879 Speaker 1: I don't know where the records of life. 763 00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:03,840 Speaker 2: Thank you to John for helping us to tell this story. 764 00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:05,920 Speaker 2: You can find some of the articles John has written 765 00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:08,799 Speaker 2: for MMA MIA in our show notes. If you want 766 00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:10,920 Speaker 2: to see clips related to this story, head over to 767 00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:14,480 Speaker 2: our Instagram page at True Crime Conversations, and for in 768 00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:18,040 Speaker 2: depth case explainers, follow us on TikTok under the same name. 769 00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:21,839 Speaker 2: True Crime Conversations is hosted by me Jemma baff Our. 770 00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:25,680 Speaker 2: Senior producer is Tarlie Blackman, our Group Executive Producer is 771 00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:29,080 Speaker 2: Alaria Brophy, and there's been audio design by Jacob Brown. 772 00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:31,839 Speaker 2: Thanks so much for listening. I'll be back next week 773 00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:39,160 Speaker 2: with another True Crime Conversation. True Crime Conversations acknowledges the 774 00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:42,120 Speaker 2: traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast was 775 00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:42,719 Speaker 2: recorded on