1 00:00:10,661 --> 00:00:13,302 Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. 2 00:00:13,862 --> 00:00:17,221 Speaker 2: Muma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 3 00:00:17,222 --> 00:00:19,022 Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded. 4 00:00:18,662 --> 00:00:21,582 Speaker 3: On high out louders. It's Jesse here today. 5 00:00:21,622 --> 00:00:23,942 Speaker 4: We are doing something a bit special because it's a 6 00:00:23,982 --> 00:00:27,062 Speaker 4: public holiday for some of you, and look, let's be transparent, 7 00:00:27,062 --> 00:00:29,181 Speaker 4: it's public holiday for us. Some of you will be 8 00:00:29,222 --> 00:00:31,422 Speaker 4: on your way to work to that. We are very sorry, 9 00:00:31,502 --> 00:00:34,982 Speaker 4: but we wanted to share one of our subscriber only 10 00:00:35,062 --> 00:00:37,821 Speaker 4: episodes with you as a little treat, so you can 11 00:00:37,862 --> 00:00:40,222 Speaker 4: get a taste of some of the conversations that we 12 00:00:40,342 --> 00:00:44,702 Speaker 4: have with just our subscribers. This episode is all about 13 00:00:44,822 --> 00:00:48,982 Speaker 4: writing books, and we had so many of you write 14 00:00:49,022 --> 00:00:52,702 Speaker 4: in with your pressing questions about how you write a book, 15 00:00:52,902 --> 00:01:00,022 Speaker 4: the editing process, procrastination, agents so much, and m Vernon 16 00:01:00,302 --> 00:01:02,942 Speaker 4: sat down with Holly and I and she just presented 17 00:01:03,022 --> 00:01:06,262 Speaker 4: all these questions. We held nothing back. We're talking about 18 00:01:06,262 --> 00:01:09,102 Speaker 4: how you actually turn a random idea into a book, 19 00:01:09,222 --> 00:01:11,741 Speaker 4: how you even know it's a book, the real process 20 00:01:11,782 --> 00:01:15,142 Speaker 4: of finding a publisher, and we spill on whether any 21 00:01:15,182 --> 00:01:17,062 Speaker 4: of our characters or plot lines. 22 00:01:16,782 --> 00:01:18,342 Speaker 3: Are based on real people. 23 00:01:19,022 --> 00:01:22,582 Speaker 4: I also share a golden nugget of advice I received 24 00:01:22,582 --> 00:01:25,782 Speaker 4: from the Jane Harper, yes, the author who wrote the 25 00:01:25,862 --> 00:01:28,782 Speaker 4: drive love that name drop. That completely changed how I 26 00:01:28,822 --> 00:01:33,062 Speaker 4: approach writing, and it's the advice every aspiring writer needs 27 00:01:33,102 --> 00:01:33,462 Speaker 4: to hear. 28 00:01:34,102 --> 00:01:34,462 Speaker 3: I think. 29 00:01:34,462 --> 00:01:37,822 Speaker 4: In this episode two, I share what my current doc 30 00:01:38,142 --> 00:01:40,982 Speaker 4: of ideas for book three looks like. It's the most 31 00:01:40,982 --> 00:01:42,862 Speaker 4: mortifying thing I've ever shared. I can't believe this is 32 00:01:42,902 --> 00:01:47,222 Speaker 4: going public. We cover all kinds of conversations for our subscribers, 33 00:01:47,502 --> 00:01:50,302 Speaker 4: and this is just a small taste. If you enjoy 34 00:01:50,342 --> 00:01:53,422 Speaker 4: this peek behind the curtain, then remember that every Tuesday 35 00:01:53,462 --> 00:01:56,102 Speaker 4: and Thursday we drop these episodes. There is a link 36 00:01:56,142 --> 00:01:59,222 Speaker 4: in the show notes if you'd like to become a subscriber. 37 00:02:00,142 --> 00:02:03,502 Speaker 2: Hello, out Louders our subscriber out Louders and vandam here 38 00:02:03,742 --> 00:02:05,862 Speaker 2: with hollywayen Wright and Jesse Stevens. 39 00:02:05,902 --> 00:02:06,662 Speaker 1: Hello today. 40 00:02:07,222 --> 00:02:09,941 Speaker 2: Now we have a special episode today because there is 41 00:02:09,942 --> 00:02:13,221 Speaker 2: a big difference between two people at this table versus 42 00:02:13,302 --> 00:02:14,822 Speaker 2: the one here and. 43 00:02:15,942 --> 00:02:18,701 Speaker 3: Has more collagen. 44 00:02:19,622 --> 00:02:24,061 Speaker 2: Two people here have written books, books, indeed, and one 45 00:02:24,062 --> 00:02:24,782 Speaker 2: of us has not. 46 00:02:25,222 --> 00:02:26,542 Speaker 1: So do you want to? 47 00:02:26,982 --> 00:02:30,142 Speaker 2: I do actually want to, But I feel like once 48 00:02:30,181 --> 00:02:32,422 Speaker 2: you say that, then you have to And yeah, you 49 00:02:32,422 --> 00:02:34,822 Speaker 2: know what receipt. 50 00:02:34,502 --> 00:02:36,902 Speaker 1: You don't have to live slung. 51 00:02:37,542 --> 00:02:40,341 Speaker 2: Okay, no one check in with me. So I have 52 00:02:40,462 --> 00:02:43,582 Speaker 2: a list of questions from the out louders on what 53 00:02:43,622 --> 00:02:46,182 Speaker 2: it takes to write a book, what it's like to 54 00:02:46,181 --> 00:02:48,982 Speaker 2: write our book. I feel like so many people either 55 00:02:49,022 --> 00:02:50,702 Speaker 2: want to write a book and want to know how 56 00:02:50,782 --> 00:02:54,182 Speaker 2: to write a book, and the questions are so so much. 57 00:02:54,222 --> 00:02:56,621 Speaker 2: I also have my own little questions here, so I 58 00:02:56,662 --> 00:02:57,862 Speaker 2: thought I'll put you guys on the spot. 59 00:02:58,102 --> 00:03:00,582 Speaker 4: I reckon that this is of all the things we 60 00:03:00,622 --> 00:03:02,102 Speaker 4: get asked you reckon, this is what you get asked 61 00:03:02,102 --> 00:03:06,542 Speaker 4: about people are most interested in. And I, before I 62 00:03:06,582 --> 00:03:10,622 Speaker 4: wrote a book, was fascinated, like I had so many questions. 63 00:03:10,702 --> 00:03:13,822 Speaker 4: I remember sliding into Sally Hepworth's DMS and just asking 64 00:03:13,822 --> 00:03:16,622 Speaker 4: her one hundred things. I did a whole book club season. 65 00:03:16,622 --> 00:03:18,382 Speaker 4: I remember where I just basically sat down with my 66 00:03:18,422 --> 00:03:20,062 Speaker 4: favorite authors and was like, how do you write a book? 67 00:03:20,142 --> 00:03:22,262 Speaker 1: Yeah? That was genius move on your part. That was 68 00:03:22,302 --> 00:03:25,422 Speaker 1: when I was like, yeah, she's so clever. I did 69 00:03:25,422 --> 00:03:27,582 Speaker 1: a talk at my daughter's school last week about writing, 70 00:03:27,902 --> 00:03:30,262 Speaker 1: did you? And what was interesting is that I was 71 00:03:30,302 --> 00:03:33,862 Speaker 1: looking at all these like fifteen sixteen seventeen year olds. 72 00:03:34,382 --> 00:03:36,262 Speaker 1: I said, does anybody here want to be a writer? 73 00:03:36,462 --> 00:03:39,182 Speaker 1: And everyone who was there like liked writing, That's why 74 00:03:39,182 --> 00:03:42,902 Speaker 1: they were there. But the idea of like writer as job, 75 00:03:43,102 --> 00:03:46,822 Speaker 1: I think is very weird, and increasingly so. It's also 76 00:03:46,862 --> 00:03:48,622 Speaker 1: because people like me will say, like, I don't actually 77 00:03:48,622 --> 00:03:50,582 Speaker 1: know it. Very many people who that's all they do, 78 00:03:50,782 --> 00:03:53,942 Speaker 1: like writer as part of a job that includes other things, 79 00:03:54,702 --> 00:03:57,062 Speaker 1: or writer as side hustle, or writer as But like 80 00:03:57,742 --> 00:03:59,782 Speaker 1: I wonder if people will even say they want to 81 00:03:59,822 --> 00:04:00,182 Speaker 1: be a writer. 82 00:04:00,542 --> 00:04:03,182 Speaker 4: But when I was five, it was book writer. Yeah, yeah, 83 00:04:03,222 --> 00:04:04,782 Speaker 4: I didn't even know the word author. It was I 84 00:04:04,782 --> 00:04:05,582 Speaker 4: want to be a book writer. 85 00:04:05,742 --> 00:04:06,382 Speaker 1: Same, yeah. 86 00:04:06,622 --> 00:04:09,662 Speaker 2: I was actually my first question because both of If 87 00:04:09,662 --> 00:04:12,142 Speaker 2: you have worked in journalism for so long, you've written 88 00:04:12,222 --> 00:04:15,382 Speaker 2: like thousands of articles of words of words, a lot 89 00:04:15,382 --> 00:04:17,702 Speaker 2: of words, you know a lot of words. Do you 90 00:04:18,262 --> 00:04:22,022 Speaker 2: have to be a writer before you can write a book? 91 00:04:22,382 --> 00:04:25,581 Speaker 4: I see writing as a muscle that can be strong 92 00:04:25,702 --> 00:04:27,301 Speaker 4: or can be weak. At the moment, I think my 93 00:04:27,381 --> 00:04:30,262 Speaker 4: writing muscle is really weak. And I was just saying 94 00:04:30,301 --> 00:04:32,621 Speaker 4: to my sister Claire, who's just finished a book. I 95 00:04:32,662 --> 00:04:35,141 Speaker 4: was saying to her, while it's strong, keep writing because 96 00:04:35,181 --> 00:04:37,981 Speaker 4: you can feel it go floppy and then I sit 97 00:04:38,022 --> 00:04:41,301 Speaker 4: down and I find it like trying to run and 98 00:04:41,342 --> 00:04:44,581 Speaker 4: not being able to get into a rhythm. So I 99 00:04:44,582 --> 00:04:47,301 Speaker 4: think that for anyone, and I've seen this people who 100 00:04:47,861 --> 00:04:48,981 Speaker 4: aren't writers, and I don't. 101 00:04:48,821 --> 00:04:50,941 Speaker 3: Think there's such thing as people who are writers or aren't. 102 00:04:50,981 --> 00:04:54,822 Speaker 4: But I don't think you can not read, not write, 103 00:04:54,941 --> 00:04:56,222 Speaker 4: and then sit down try and write a book. 104 00:04:56,262 --> 00:04:56,941 Speaker 3: It's not going to work. 105 00:04:57,022 --> 00:04:58,501 Speaker 4: I think the biggest thing if you want to get 106 00:04:58,541 --> 00:05:00,421 Speaker 4: better at writing, it's such a cliche, but you've just 107 00:05:00,541 --> 00:05:04,181 Speaker 4: got to be constantly reading and then write anything, anything. 108 00:05:04,262 --> 00:05:06,101 Speaker 1: Yeah. And the reason that a lot of the writers 109 00:05:06,142 --> 00:05:08,462 Speaker 1: that you know, people have written books you know are 110 00:05:08,541 --> 00:05:13,022 Speaker 1: writers is because usually if you know you love writing 111 00:05:13,061 --> 00:05:15,621 Speaker 1: and words, you know that quite young, and you're probably 112 00:05:15,702 --> 00:05:18,181 Speaker 1: quite likely to try and find a job that includes 113 00:05:18,222 --> 00:05:21,141 Speaker 1: that in some way. And so obviously, you know, when 114 00:05:21,142 --> 00:05:22,741 Speaker 1: I was a little kid, I love books and I 115 00:05:22,741 --> 00:05:25,421 Speaker 1: wanted to write books. But being an author, like a 116 00:05:25,462 --> 00:05:28,462 Speaker 1: full time book writing author, is a very difficult thing 117 00:05:28,541 --> 00:05:31,181 Speaker 1: to achieve as a job, like as your first job, 118 00:05:31,301 --> 00:05:33,782 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. And I think probably it's 119 00:05:33,821 --> 00:05:36,981 Speaker 1: going to become more so so getting into journalism getting 120 00:05:36,981 --> 00:05:39,701 Speaker 1: into magazine writing, getting into content creation, getting into whatever 121 00:05:39,702 --> 00:05:42,782 Speaker 1: it is. It's a job that's adjacent to words. And 122 00:05:42,821 --> 00:05:44,942 Speaker 1: that's why. That's why so like lots and lots of 123 00:05:45,022 --> 00:05:47,621 Speaker 1: journalists want to be authors one day and will be 124 00:05:47,662 --> 00:05:50,301 Speaker 1: authors one day whatever, but they basically have chosen a 125 00:05:50,381 --> 00:05:52,382 Speaker 1: job that keeps them close to the words that they love. 126 00:05:52,582 --> 00:05:55,261 Speaker 1: I think, but Jesse's hundred percent right. If you want 127 00:05:55,301 --> 00:05:57,421 Speaker 1: to be a good writer, you've just got to read, read, read, 128 00:05:57,262 --> 00:05:57,662 Speaker 1: re read. 129 00:05:58,101 --> 00:06:01,782 Speaker 2: Okay, back to like when you first first started, for 130 00:06:01,821 --> 00:06:05,022 Speaker 2: the two of you, what came first the idea that 131 00:06:05,222 --> 00:06:08,342 Speaker 2: ended up being a book, or wanting to write a book, 132 00:06:08,381 --> 00:06:10,901 Speaker 2: and then thinking about the idea for the book later. 133 00:06:11,541 --> 00:06:13,421 Speaker 3: Mine was the idea. 134 00:06:14,142 --> 00:06:16,541 Speaker 4: I always had this idea that I wanted to write 135 00:06:16,541 --> 00:06:19,181 Speaker 4: a book before or around the age of thirty. 136 00:06:19,222 --> 00:06:19,821 Speaker 3: I don't know why. 137 00:06:19,902 --> 00:06:22,461 Speaker 4: I just had that as some kind of deadline of like, 138 00:06:22,861 --> 00:06:26,182 Speaker 4: I think I would like to attempt it by then. 139 00:06:26,222 --> 00:06:28,461 Speaker 4: I suppose I probably had that idea at like eighteen, 140 00:06:28,501 --> 00:06:30,421 Speaker 4: thinking that thirty was really far away, and then in 141 00:06:30,421 --> 00:06:32,061 Speaker 4: my late twenties I was like, oh shit, I should 142 00:06:32,061 --> 00:06:34,342 Speaker 4: get to that, and I always knew what it was 143 00:06:34,381 --> 00:06:37,582 Speaker 4: going to be. I have no answer for how I knew. 144 00:06:37,662 --> 00:06:39,821 Speaker 4: I never looked for it, and my second book was 145 00:06:39,821 --> 00:06:43,382 Speaker 4: the same. I just knew that I had enough to 146 00:06:43,462 --> 00:06:46,301 Speaker 4: say that I could sit with this idea for at 147 00:06:46,381 --> 00:06:48,981 Speaker 4: least a year. But I know a lot of people 148 00:06:48,981 --> 00:06:50,421 Speaker 4: who go, I want to write a book, and then 149 00:06:50,421 --> 00:06:52,382 Speaker 4: they go searching for that, especially people who write a 150 00:06:52,381 --> 00:06:54,461 Speaker 4: book a year, and then they go searching for plot. 151 00:06:54,462 --> 00:06:57,182 Speaker 4: But I'm in the situation now where I really want 152 00:06:57,222 --> 00:06:58,662 Speaker 4: to write another book. I want to be in the 153 00:06:58,662 --> 00:07:03,222 Speaker 4: depths of it, but I cannot find the thing, and 154 00:07:03,301 --> 00:07:05,421 Speaker 4: I'm finding that very frustrating. 155 00:07:05,702 --> 00:07:08,222 Speaker 1: I think there are lots of different ways to be 156 00:07:08,301 --> 00:07:10,862 Speaker 1: a writer. We always talk books as if they're one thing, 157 00:07:10,941 --> 00:07:12,982 Speaker 1: but they're not. You know, like thinking about the difference 158 00:07:13,022 --> 00:07:15,261 Speaker 1: between a cookery book and a memoir and a novel, 159 00:07:15,262 --> 00:07:18,582 Speaker 1: and a literary novel and a dragon sex book novel. 160 00:07:19,022 --> 00:07:21,502 Speaker 1: You know, like, there are a million different ways to 161 00:07:21,502 --> 00:07:23,502 Speaker 1: be a writer, and every writer will have a different 162 00:07:23,662 --> 00:07:27,581 Speaker 1: story about how they came to be that and how 163 00:07:27,662 --> 00:07:30,542 Speaker 1: they then determine what they're going to write. Because obviously, 164 00:07:30,582 --> 00:07:32,222 Speaker 1: if you're writing a series, that sets you out a 165 00:07:32,302 --> 00:07:34,022 Speaker 1: nice clear path and you've got to figure that one 166 00:07:34,022 --> 00:07:35,622 Speaker 1: out right, if you've always just had it in you 167 00:07:35,702 --> 00:07:38,102 Speaker 1: to tell this one particular story, or you're a memoirist, 168 00:07:38,142 --> 00:07:39,542 Speaker 1: then obviously that's what you're going to do. 169 00:07:40,102 --> 00:07:40,381 Speaker 2: For me. 170 00:07:40,582 --> 00:07:42,342 Speaker 1: My story's a bit different to Jesse's in that when 171 00:07:42,342 --> 00:07:43,701 Speaker 1: I was a kid, I did always want to be 172 00:07:43,702 --> 00:07:46,021 Speaker 1: a writer, and I did build a career close to 173 00:07:46,062 --> 00:07:49,022 Speaker 1: words in journalism. I think that somewhere in the middle 174 00:07:49,022 --> 00:07:51,382 Speaker 1: of all that, I lost faith or confidence that I 175 00:07:51,381 --> 00:07:53,622 Speaker 1: would ever write a book, like it just seemed like 176 00:07:53,662 --> 00:07:55,982 Speaker 1: something I didn't actually know anyone who had written books 177 00:07:56,022 --> 00:07:58,542 Speaker 1: like I was. And then in my later life when 178 00:07:58,582 --> 00:08:00,142 Speaker 1: I came to work here at Mamma Mia, and I 179 00:08:00,142 --> 00:08:02,782 Speaker 1: remember really clearly the first book launch I went to 180 00:08:02,902 --> 00:08:05,182 Speaker 1: for a staff member at Mama Mia who'd written a book. 181 00:08:05,502 --> 00:08:07,782 Speaker 1: I just was so excited by it. But also I 182 00:08:07,821 --> 00:08:10,901 Speaker 1: was like, oh my God, like it happens people you know, 183 00:08:10,982 --> 00:08:13,222 Speaker 1: Like it does happen you know, and there is no 184 00:08:13,342 --> 00:08:16,782 Speaker 1: getting away from it. Recognizing advantage of privilege here that 185 00:08:17,302 --> 00:08:19,901 Speaker 1: working in the media, and particularly different kinds of the 186 00:08:19,941 --> 00:08:22,942 Speaker 1: media does give you an advantage in terms of access. 187 00:08:23,342 --> 00:08:25,941 Speaker 1: And also people always say, can't be we can't see 188 00:08:26,022 --> 00:08:28,702 Speaker 1: the access to seeing people who've done it and how 189 00:08:28,702 --> 00:08:30,262 Speaker 1: they do it and how they approach it and all 190 00:08:30,262 --> 00:08:33,742 Speaker 1: the things. So for me, I'd always wanted to write novels. 191 00:08:33,782 --> 00:08:35,502 Speaker 1: That was always my dream, but I think it had 192 00:08:35,502 --> 00:08:37,222 Speaker 1: moved out of my reach, and then it sort of 193 00:08:37,222 --> 00:08:39,502 Speaker 1: began to seem like it was within my reach again. 194 00:08:39,902 --> 00:08:41,422 Speaker 1: And then I had a really good idea for my 195 00:08:41,462 --> 00:08:43,982 Speaker 1: first novel, which was Nomami Blogers, which was about women 196 00:08:44,022 --> 00:08:46,262 Speaker 1: writing online because that's what I was working in, and 197 00:08:46,302 --> 00:08:48,302 Speaker 1: I was like, this would be such a great story, 198 00:08:48,342 --> 00:08:51,422 Speaker 1: because I think that if you're a writer and you're creative, 199 00:08:51,502 --> 00:08:53,822 Speaker 1: you see stories everywhere all the time, like things happen 200 00:08:53,862 --> 00:08:55,542 Speaker 1: in the news, things happen in your office, things happen 201 00:08:55,542 --> 00:08:57,462 Speaker 1: in your family, and you go, what a great story, 202 00:08:57,502 --> 00:09:00,262 Speaker 1: What a great story? Like you're endlessly curious. It's not 203 00:09:00,302 --> 00:09:03,102 Speaker 1: a whole plot, but it's a starting point. Lots of 204 00:09:03,142 --> 00:09:05,902 Speaker 1: writers do things like they keep notes, apps or physical 205 00:09:05,942 --> 00:09:08,022 Speaker 1: folders or diaries where they just write ideas all the 206 00:09:08,262 --> 00:09:10,222 Speaker 1: news stories like that guy on the run in the 207 00:09:10,302 --> 00:09:12,422 Speaker 1: hills or you know, blah blah. You file them all 208 00:09:12,462 --> 00:09:14,942 Speaker 1: away and then when you're ready to tell a story, 209 00:09:14,982 --> 00:09:16,582 Speaker 1: you can like pull them out and see them so 210 00:09:16,622 --> 00:09:19,222 Speaker 1: that's how it worked for me. And then I sent 211 00:09:19,262 --> 00:09:21,942 Speaker 1: that idea off to some publishers and I said, like, 212 00:09:21,982 --> 00:09:23,422 Speaker 1: I think this could be great. I can see how 213 00:09:23,422 --> 00:09:25,182 Speaker 1: it would work. I work in this world. I know 214 00:09:25,262 --> 00:09:27,622 Speaker 1: it well, it's something I could bring to life, and 215 00:09:27,662 --> 00:09:28,862 Speaker 1: that's how I got started. 216 00:09:29,102 --> 00:09:31,902 Speaker 2: That's so interesting. So because you started with the Mummy 217 00:09:31,902 --> 00:09:34,822 Speaker 2: Boggers and then you went into How to Be Perfect. 218 00:09:34,502 --> 00:09:36,782 Speaker 1: Yeah, which was a sequel, which was a sequel. That's 219 00:09:36,822 --> 00:09:37,702 Speaker 1: my other question. 220 00:09:37,902 --> 00:09:41,582 Speaker 2: How did you know that the Mummy Bogger story wasn't finished? 221 00:09:42,182 --> 00:09:44,022 Speaker 2: But then did you feel like you ended it with 222 00:09:44,062 --> 00:09:44,742 Speaker 2: How to Be Perfectly? 223 00:09:44,862 --> 00:09:45,022 Speaker 4: Well? 224 00:09:45,062 --> 00:09:46,902 Speaker 1: The truth of it is the thing about it, right, 225 00:09:47,062 --> 00:09:49,542 Speaker 1: People talk about it is this really mystical thing, and 226 00:09:49,582 --> 00:09:52,622 Speaker 1: in some ways it can be. But also it's a job, right, 227 00:09:52,662 --> 00:09:54,582 Speaker 1: So once you've started and you're getting paid for it. 228 00:09:54,662 --> 00:09:56,381 Speaker 1: So I got paid to write The Mummy Bloggers and 229 00:09:56,422 --> 00:09:58,342 Speaker 1: it did quite well. I didn't get paid very much, 230 00:09:58,462 --> 00:10:00,102 Speaker 1: to be clear, but I got paid to write. Then 231 00:10:00,142 --> 00:10:01,822 Speaker 1: it did quite well, and so it was like could 232 00:10:01,822 --> 00:10:03,742 Speaker 1: we write another one? And I was like yes, Like 233 00:10:03,822 --> 00:10:05,662 Speaker 1: I think these characters could definitely and I wanted to 234 00:10:05,662 --> 00:10:09,382 Speaker 1: write about influences and health influencers, because that was very 235 00:10:09,422 --> 00:10:12,942 Speaker 1: much much in the world. So I wrote that book 236 00:10:13,502 --> 00:10:15,662 Speaker 1: knowing that the publishers wanted it and it would publish, 237 00:10:15,782 --> 00:10:17,262 Speaker 1: But it didn't do as well as the first one. 238 00:10:17,302 --> 00:10:20,022 Speaker 3: Didn't you write that first book in like five minutes. 239 00:10:20,462 --> 00:10:22,382 Speaker 1: I didn't write it in five minutes, but I wrote 240 00:10:22,462 --> 00:10:26,702 Speaker 1: most of it. I took a month off work over Christmas, 241 00:10:26,702 --> 00:10:29,662 Speaker 1: like January, and I wrote most of it in six weeks. 242 00:10:29,702 --> 00:10:31,982 Speaker 1: Not the whole thing. WHOA six weeks? 243 00:10:32,462 --> 00:10:35,542 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, most of it you'd planned. 244 00:10:35,622 --> 00:10:37,702 Speaker 1: I've planned it, and I'd written parts of it, but 245 00:10:37,742 --> 00:10:40,302 Speaker 1: then I broke the back of it in six weeks. 246 00:10:40,542 --> 00:10:44,502 Speaker 2: And Jesse, you've written fiction and nonfiction. What did you 247 00:10:44,622 --> 00:10:48,381 Speaker 2: find the most difficult transition between the both and did 248 00:10:48,422 --> 00:10:49,622 Speaker 2: you find one harder than the other? 249 00:10:50,062 --> 00:10:52,502 Speaker 4: I found my second book easier, but I don't know 250 00:10:52,542 --> 00:10:54,182 Speaker 4: if that's because it's fiction or because it was my 251 00:10:54,222 --> 00:10:57,062 Speaker 4: second book. I remember Jane Harper saying to me, it 252 00:10:57,102 --> 00:11:00,062 Speaker 4: gets easier, like every single time you write a book, 253 00:11:00,062 --> 00:11:03,782 Speaker 4: it actually does get easier. Does I dispute this fact, Well, 254 00:11:03,822 --> 00:11:05,662 Speaker 4: I think that it depends what you're writing. 255 00:11:05,662 --> 00:11:06,862 Speaker 1: Back For me, it doesn't. 256 00:11:06,662 --> 00:11:08,822 Speaker 3: Get any And this is my theory. About why. I 257 00:11:08,822 --> 00:11:10,222 Speaker 3: Holly thinks that is. 258 00:11:10,182 --> 00:11:14,462 Speaker 4: That when you go into a completely different zone and 259 00:11:14,582 --> 00:11:18,102 Speaker 4: challenge yourself in a new way, I think then you 260 00:11:18,142 --> 00:11:20,262 Speaker 4: fill out of your depth again. Like the sign of 261 00:11:20,542 --> 00:11:23,022 Speaker 4: professional growth is constantly feeling out of your depth. And 262 00:11:23,062 --> 00:11:25,462 Speaker 4: Holly's done that. Every single book has been like this 263 00:11:26,142 --> 00:11:29,542 Speaker 4: ambitious feat of like I'm going to further myself, whereas 264 00:11:29,582 --> 00:11:32,742 Speaker 4: if you were going to write, and some people do this, 265 00:11:32,902 --> 00:11:36,022 Speaker 4: there's almost something formulation. I don't think Jane is that, 266 00:11:36,102 --> 00:11:38,381 Speaker 4: but I think that there are some people who it's 267 00:11:38,422 --> 00:11:40,342 Speaker 4: really clever to kind of go, I'm going to write that. 268 00:11:40,422 --> 00:11:44,182 Speaker 4: But I definitely found the second book easier. But with 269 00:11:44,422 --> 00:11:48,142 Speaker 4: both I felt like impostery because I didn't know how 270 00:11:48,142 --> 00:11:49,942 Speaker 4: to do it. And I've told lots of people who 271 00:11:49,942 --> 00:11:52,422 Speaker 4: have DMed me about book stuff that I did a 272 00:11:52,462 --> 00:11:56,262 Speaker 4: course called Unlocking Creativity, which is an online course that 273 00:11:56,302 --> 00:11:58,822 Speaker 4: anyone can do. I think it's four weeks and it 274 00:11:58,902 --> 00:12:02,102 Speaker 4: just teaches you, like I couldn't write a scene. I 275 00:12:02,142 --> 00:12:04,142 Speaker 4: didn't know how to imagine something and write it down. 276 00:12:04,422 --> 00:12:06,862 Speaker 4: So I did that course and then the same one. 277 00:12:07,102 --> 00:12:09,782 Speaker 4: I'll put it in the show notes, but my sister 278 00:12:09,902 --> 00:12:11,942 Speaker 4: did the one about I think writing a whole manuscript 279 00:12:11,942 --> 00:12:14,582 Speaker 4: in nine months something like that, and it holds your 280 00:12:14,622 --> 00:12:17,342 Speaker 4: hand to do it because there is a science to it, 281 00:12:17,422 --> 00:12:19,062 Speaker 4: like there is a way that you can do it, 282 00:12:19,102 --> 00:12:21,542 Speaker 4: and if you're finding that stuff hard, then there are 283 00:12:21,662 --> 00:12:23,262 Speaker 4: courses that will help you achieve it. 284 00:12:23,302 --> 00:12:24,022 Speaker 1: That's so cool. 285 00:12:24,902 --> 00:12:27,742 Speaker 2: When it comes to writer's block, how do you get 286 00:12:27,782 --> 00:12:31,142 Speaker 2: over it? And also where does writer's block usually appear 287 00:12:31,222 --> 00:12:32,342 Speaker 2: in your writing journey? 288 00:12:32,942 --> 00:12:36,862 Speaker 1: I definitely have struggled with writer's block, because I think 289 00:12:37,382 --> 00:12:39,742 Speaker 1: she was just saying how she thinks writing books gets easier, 290 00:12:39,822 --> 00:12:43,662 Speaker 1: Like for me, I've written five books and I still 291 00:12:43,662 --> 00:12:45,262 Speaker 1: don't think I know how to do it. Like when 292 00:12:45,262 --> 00:12:47,702 Speaker 1: people ask me how you do it, I'm genuinely stumped. 293 00:12:47,742 --> 00:12:49,542 Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't know, Like I don't know how 294 00:12:49,582 --> 00:12:51,582 Speaker 1: you do it, except that you just do it, like 295 00:12:51,702 --> 00:12:54,302 Speaker 1: as in, you have to have the discipline. And I 296 00:12:54,302 --> 00:12:56,182 Speaker 1: know it's such a cliche, but you do have to 297 00:12:56,182 --> 00:12:58,102 Speaker 1: have the discipline to just sit down and do it. 298 00:12:58,502 --> 00:13:00,862 Speaker 1: There's a myth that like, oh, if I only had 299 00:13:00,902 --> 00:13:02,502 Speaker 1: to do that, I would write eight hours a day 300 00:13:02,502 --> 00:13:04,622 Speaker 1: as if it was my job. And most writers would 301 00:13:04,662 --> 00:13:07,342 Speaker 1: never do that, you know, even writers who that is 302 00:13:07,382 --> 00:13:10,262 Speaker 1: their job. Two hours is a pretty good stint of 303 00:13:10,302 --> 00:13:14,222 Speaker 1: like full on creative focus. But writing a lot of 304 00:13:14,222 --> 00:13:17,902 Speaker 1: writing happens before the writing thinking. Like for me, a 305 00:13:17,902 --> 00:13:19,782 Speaker 1: lot of ideas do come while you're writing, but you're 306 00:13:19,822 --> 00:13:21,902 Speaker 1: thinking about the plot all the time, thinking about the characters, 307 00:13:21,902 --> 00:13:24,822 Speaker 1: what's going to happen to day. So when I get blocked, 308 00:13:25,182 --> 00:13:27,822 Speaker 1: the only way through it is to write. Write anything, 309 00:13:28,102 --> 00:13:30,381 Speaker 1: Just write anything. And what I often do is I'll 310 00:13:30,382 --> 00:13:31,942 Speaker 1: go in my little shed when it's a writing day 311 00:13:31,982 --> 00:13:33,502 Speaker 1: and I know I've got a certain amount of words 312 00:13:33,502 --> 00:13:35,022 Speaker 1: I've got to get done, and if I'm not feeling 313 00:13:35,022 --> 00:13:37,342 Speaker 1: it is I'll sit in my chair. I have a 314 00:13:37,422 --> 00:13:40,062 Speaker 1: small bookshelf in my office. I've got like lots of 315 00:13:40,062 --> 00:13:42,382 Speaker 1: books in my house, but that's got a certain number 316 00:13:42,422 --> 00:13:45,102 Speaker 1: of books that I particularly love on there. Jesse's books 317 00:13:45,102 --> 00:13:48,182 Speaker 1: are on there, and I will grab one and open 318 00:13:48,222 --> 00:13:51,662 Speaker 1: it like almost randomly and read a few pages or 319 00:13:51,742 --> 00:13:54,182 Speaker 1: chapters to kind of let the words get in there. 320 00:13:54,262 --> 00:13:56,582 Speaker 1: And you, I don't know, it's almost like the rhythm 321 00:13:57,342 --> 00:13:58,942 Speaker 1: hits you like me Isaac playing, You. 322 00:13:58,902 --> 00:14:00,822 Speaker 4: Know, Yeah, I forget what a sentence looks like? Yeah, 323 00:14:00,942 --> 00:14:02,982 Speaker 4: I go, wait, how does a sentence start? 324 00:14:03,422 --> 00:14:06,462 Speaker 1: What are some amazing pieces of dial not to steal them, 325 00:14:06,462 --> 00:14:08,182 Speaker 1: but to like get you back in the zone, or 326 00:14:08,222 --> 00:14:12,982 Speaker 1: like the brilliant first paragraphs, or I do generally write chronologically. 327 00:14:13,022 --> 00:14:14,902 Speaker 1: Not everybody does. I know lots of people who write 328 00:14:14,902 --> 00:14:17,102 Speaker 1: the end before the beginning. I'm just not that smart. 329 00:14:17,222 --> 00:14:19,942 Speaker 1: You don't do that. God, No, Like I have a 330 00:14:19,982 --> 00:14:22,382 Speaker 1: plan and know what's going to happen, but I literally 331 00:14:22,462 --> 00:14:26,062 Speaker 1: write the thing from front to back. So I've learned, 332 00:14:26,222 --> 00:14:28,382 Speaker 1: particularly with Hewould Never, which is my most recent and 333 00:14:28,422 --> 00:14:32,142 Speaker 1: most complicated book. Obviously there was a plan and like 334 00:14:32,182 --> 00:14:35,022 Speaker 1: there's a chapter by chapter plan by the end, but 335 00:14:35,422 --> 00:14:38,622 Speaker 1: I write it in chronological order, like I couldn't. I 336 00:14:38,622 --> 00:14:40,822 Speaker 1: couldn't do it otherwise, but in kind of. But not 337 00:14:40,862 --> 00:14:42,582 Speaker 1: everybody does. I know lots of people who write the 338 00:14:42,622 --> 00:14:45,222 Speaker 1: last chapter before the first chapter. My head would fall off. 339 00:14:45,462 --> 00:14:47,502 Speaker 2: So when you actually get a book deal and you 340 00:14:47,582 --> 00:14:50,502 Speaker 2: signed with the publisher, did they also know that like 341 00:14:50,662 --> 00:14:51,342 Speaker 2: story arc? 342 00:14:51,782 --> 00:14:55,062 Speaker 1: Well, there's actually different answers to this question, right, because 343 00:14:55,062 --> 00:14:57,142 Speaker 1: there are lots of different ways to get a book deal. 344 00:14:57,782 --> 00:14:59,822 Speaker 1: You can get a book deal on a whole written manuscript. 345 00:14:59,902 --> 00:15:02,382 Speaker 1: You know, that's the classic route, which is that you 346 00:15:02,462 --> 00:15:05,982 Speaker 1: send your manuscript off written to lots of publishers and 347 00:15:06,022 --> 00:15:09,542 Speaker 1: they accept or reject publishing gossips. 348 00:15:09,622 --> 00:15:10,662 Speaker 3: You get more money that way. 349 00:15:10,742 --> 00:15:13,302 Speaker 4: If you've got a finished manuscript. It's like, that's the 350 00:15:13,462 --> 00:15:15,662 Speaker 4: advice that I've heard is like, finish it and you'll 351 00:15:15,702 --> 00:15:17,102 Speaker 4: get more money if it's really good. 352 00:15:17,222 --> 00:15:19,342 Speaker 1: Yeah, because that's when people bid and all that kind 353 00:15:19,342 --> 00:15:22,262 Speaker 1: of stuff. Oh, but if you get commissioned to write 354 00:15:22,262 --> 00:15:24,622 Speaker 1: a book, which is obviously a safer bet in terms 355 00:15:24,622 --> 00:15:26,422 Speaker 1: of you know you're going to get paid to write 356 00:15:26,422 --> 00:15:29,822 Speaker 1: this book, you will either get it on a proposal, 357 00:15:29,862 --> 00:15:32,542 Speaker 1: which will be like a several page, you know, outline 358 00:15:32,582 --> 00:15:34,342 Speaker 1: of the book with a certain amount of detail, maybe 359 00:15:34,382 --> 00:15:37,102 Speaker 1: a couple of chapters on spec as well, maybe a 360 00:15:37,102 --> 00:15:40,422 Speaker 1: full story outline, but not necessarily Like with I Give 361 00:15:40,462 --> 00:15:43,182 Speaker 1: My Marriage a Year, I did not give a full 362 00:15:43,222 --> 00:15:45,782 Speaker 1: story outline. I gave a proposal, so the premise and 363 00:15:45,822 --> 00:15:48,822 Speaker 1: obviously an outline in the first few chapters. And then 364 00:15:48,902 --> 00:15:51,622 Speaker 1: I remember very confidently my having a meeting with my 365 00:15:51,622 --> 00:15:53,822 Speaker 1: publisher like halfway through, and she'd been reading it as 366 00:15:53,862 --> 00:15:55,622 Speaker 1: I went, because I was sending her chapters as I went, 367 00:15:55,662 --> 00:15:57,702 Speaker 1: which sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. It depends, 368 00:15:58,502 --> 00:16:00,142 Speaker 1: and she was like, I just need to know if 369 00:16:00,182 --> 00:16:02,582 Speaker 1: they're going to stay together. And she was like, you know, 370 00:16:02,742 --> 00:16:04,462 Speaker 1: don't you? And I was like, yep, I know. I 371 00:16:04,462 --> 00:16:08,222 Speaker 1: didn't fucking know. I didn't start that book knowing whether 372 00:16:08,342 --> 00:16:10,062 Speaker 1: or not they were going to stay together. I was like, 373 00:16:10,502 --> 00:16:12,222 Speaker 1: it sort of came to me as I went. But 374 00:16:12,342 --> 00:16:14,942 Speaker 1: then again with he would Never, which is so complicated, 375 00:16:15,542 --> 00:16:18,102 Speaker 1: that sort of pantsing as they call it, just wasn't 376 00:16:18,102 --> 00:16:20,062 Speaker 1: going to work. And actually when it came back to 377 00:16:20,102 --> 00:16:21,662 Speaker 1: me after I did the first draft, I had to 378 00:16:21,662 --> 00:16:24,502 Speaker 1: rewrite the second half because it wasn't cohesive enough. And 379 00:16:24,582 --> 00:16:27,902 Speaker 1: at that point I did a really really thorough like 380 00:16:28,222 --> 00:16:31,302 Speaker 1: chapter by chapter by a bit breakdown and stuck to that. 381 00:16:31,822 --> 00:16:33,782 Speaker 1: But before that I'd been much more of a panther. 382 00:16:33,902 --> 00:16:35,902 Speaker 1: So I also think it can change, like how you 383 00:16:35,902 --> 00:16:37,502 Speaker 1: write a book can change. I don't know what you 384 00:16:37,502 --> 00:16:37,822 Speaker 1: think to do. 385 00:16:37,942 --> 00:16:40,342 Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think I had the ending very clearly. 386 00:16:40,382 --> 00:16:43,702 Speaker 4: I had a pitch, but I would say that if 387 00:16:43,742 --> 00:16:45,702 Speaker 4: you've got a picture, even if you have a manuscript. 388 00:16:46,102 --> 00:16:49,102 Speaker 4: The thing that I reckon holds people back the most 389 00:16:49,782 --> 00:16:53,942 Speaker 4: is holding on to their idare their pitch their work 390 00:16:53,982 --> 00:16:59,342 Speaker 4: too tightly I don't know anyone who isn't thrown feedback 391 00:16:59,822 --> 00:17:03,062 Speaker 4: that you might go, oh really, and you know, sometimes 392 00:17:03,062 --> 00:17:07,101 Speaker 4: you know what's worth fighting for. But a book is 393 00:17:07,142 --> 00:17:10,742 Speaker 4: a group project. And like the people who I see 394 00:17:10,782 --> 00:17:13,422 Speaker 4: really coming up against lots of walls and barriers, it's 395 00:17:13,462 --> 00:17:15,221 Speaker 4: like you've got to take on some feedback, you've got 396 00:17:15,262 --> 00:17:17,101 Speaker 4: to take on some edits, you've got to rewrite it. 397 00:17:17,302 --> 00:17:19,701 Speaker 4: You've got to rewrite the If people aren't picking up 398 00:17:19,702 --> 00:17:21,422 Speaker 4: the proposal and you want to get a book published, 399 00:17:21,581 --> 00:17:23,662 Speaker 4: then write a new proposal. I think that you've kind 400 00:17:23,661 --> 00:17:25,141 Speaker 4: of got to be a little bit more mariable. 401 00:17:25,182 --> 00:17:27,581 Speaker 1: And you also have to remember that if you are 402 00:17:27,581 --> 00:17:29,941 Speaker 1: going the classic route of sending on spec got a 403 00:17:29,982 --> 00:17:32,141 Speaker 1: great idea for a book, and that you will have 404 00:17:32,182 --> 00:17:34,221 Speaker 1: heard published to talk about the slush pile, which is 405 00:17:34,262 --> 00:17:36,661 Speaker 1: like a pile of manuscripts or proposals that people have 406 00:17:36,702 --> 00:17:39,141 Speaker 1: to read through. You have got to grab them in 407 00:17:39,182 --> 00:17:41,061 Speaker 1: the first couple of paragraphs, just like you would in 408 00:17:41,141 --> 00:17:43,821 Speaker 1: any other kind of writing. So if you're going that way, 409 00:17:43,861 --> 00:17:46,901 Speaker 1: pour your heart into that proposal, make it sound amazing. 410 00:17:46,942 --> 00:17:49,341 Speaker 1: And publishers will often say, and I find this disheartening, 411 00:17:49,381 --> 00:17:52,182 Speaker 1: but it's true, tell me what kind of book this is? 412 00:17:52,262 --> 00:17:55,262 Speaker 1: Like this is exactly like, oh, this is a bit 413 00:17:55,381 --> 00:17:58,461 Speaker 1: like heartsick meets blah blah. You know, like, tell me 414 00:17:58,502 --> 00:18:00,302 Speaker 1: what kind of book this is a bit like Akata, 415 00:18:00,462 --> 00:18:02,702 Speaker 1: This is a bit like blah. And although I kind 416 00:18:02,702 --> 00:18:04,621 Speaker 1: of find that dispiriting because all of us authors like 417 00:18:04,661 --> 00:18:07,061 Speaker 1: to think we're writing something terribly original, and there's just 418 00:18:07,101 --> 00:18:09,422 Speaker 1: not really anything like that out there right now. It's 419 00:18:09,702 --> 00:18:12,262 Speaker 1: business now more than the ever. Books are incredibly hard 420 00:18:12,262 --> 00:18:15,221 Speaker 1: to sell, and so they need to know that you 421 00:18:15,381 --> 00:18:18,982 Speaker 1: understand that you're not just writing this book for you 422 00:18:19,222 --> 00:18:21,022 Speaker 1: and your career. I mean, this is if you want 423 00:18:21,022 --> 00:18:22,661 Speaker 1: to be a published author, not if you want to 424 00:18:22,661 --> 00:18:25,181 Speaker 1: write for your pleasure, but that you know who you're 425 00:18:25,182 --> 00:18:28,222 Speaker 1: writing it for and you can see an audience for it. 426 00:18:28,381 --> 00:18:30,061 Speaker 4: And be really clear. Don't say it's for everyone. No 427 00:18:30,101 --> 00:18:31,862 Speaker 4: book is for everyone. You've got to be really clear 428 00:18:31,901 --> 00:18:33,622 Speaker 4: about your demographic and who it's for. 429 00:18:33,702 --> 00:18:34,141 Speaker 3: And on that. 430 00:18:34,462 --> 00:18:36,542 Speaker 4: People who say how do I get my book published? 431 00:18:36,621 --> 00:18:39,461 Speaker 4: I always tell them two things. The first is competitions. 432 00:18:39,742 --> 00:18:42,782 Speaker 4: That's a big one. There's like New South Wales Victoria 433 00:18:43,022 --> 00:18:46,061 Speaker 4: Jane Harper won a competition that's like submit all the time. 434 00:18:46,101 --> 00:18:48,341 Speaker 4: You've got to have people read it. And the second 435 00:18:48,341 --> 00:18:50,982 Speaker 4: thing is that they often have like open for submissions, 436 00:18:51,262 --> 00:18:53,422 Speaker 4: Like certain publishers will do it where they'll go we're 437 00:18:53,462 --> 00:18:56,061 Speaker 4: looking for a crime book, We're looking for a blah. 438 00:18:56,381 --> 00:18:58,581 Speaker 4: Follow them all on Instagram because I see them pop up, 439 00:18:58,581 --> 00:19:00,861 Speaker 4: and I often like tag friends, and I'm like, hand 440 00:19:00,861 --> 00:19:03,901 Speaker 4: it along. I know before we were saying, you know, 441 00:19:04,141 --> 00:19:06,462 Speaker 4: you get one shot and edit it. I know people 442 00:19:06,462 --> 00:19:08,622 Speaker 4: who have written books that haven't shown anyone, and I'm 443 00:19:08,661 --> 00:19:10,742 Speaker 4: just like, you got to show someone, Like at some point, 444 00:19:10,742 --> 00:19:13,222 Speaker 4: you've got to let it out into the world. No 445 00:19:13,381 --> 00:19:16,821 Speaker 4: one I know finishes a book, finishes a proposal and goes, 446 00:19:16,901 --> 00:19:19,741 Speaker 4: this is a masterpiece. No, I hate everything I've written. 447 00:19:19,821 --> 00:19:22,182 Speaker 4: I would never open a page of it and look 448 00:19:22,182 --> 00:19:24,101 Speaker 4: at it. But at some point, you've just got a 449 00:19:24,141 --> 00:19:26,381 Speaker 4: trust that you've done the work and that you deserve 450 00:19:26,422 --> 00:19:27,181 Speaker 4: to have people read it. 451 00:19:28,742 --> 00:19:31,782 Speaker 2: How did you know when you landed on the right 452 00:19:32,381 --> 00:19:36,661 Speaker 2: concept or plot? And also where in your life do 453 00:19:36,702 --> 00:19:37,942 Speaker 2: you find your ideas? 454 00:19:38,462 --> 00:19:40,542 Speaker 4: Okay, Holly, I want you to answer that question, and 455 00:19:40,542 --> 00:19:41,941 Speaker 4: then what I'm going to do is I'm going to 456 00:19:41,982 --> 00:19:45,742 Speaker 4: read some of my notes from my book three ideas 457 00:19:45,821 --> 00:19:49,661 Speaker 4: document because they are hilarious, Like you're. 458 00:19:49,341 --> 00:19:51,581 Speaker 1: Just going some of them, they're going to be amazing. 459 00:19:51,621 --> 00:19:55,462 Speaker 4: No, no, no, they're just words like dementia, aging. 460 00:19:58,702 --> 00:20:01,542 Speaker 1: As I said before, I think if you are somebody 461 00:20:01,581 --> 00:20:03,942 Speaker 1: who sees stories, if you're a creative person, you see 462 00:20:03,942 --> 00:20:05,702 Speaker 1: them all over the place. So I get a lot 463 00:20:05,702 --> 00:20:08,101 Speaker 1: of my ideas from my real life, from the news cycle, 464 00:20:08,182 --> 00:20:10,701 Speaker 1: from the women in the world, and with my and 465 00:20:10,901 --> 00:20:13,302 Speaker 1: my friendship group, my workmates, all those things. And you know, 466 00:20:13,341 --> 00:20:15,821 Speaker 1: we're in a very fortunate position at MoMA MIA in 467 00:20:15,901 --> 00:20:19,382 Speaker 1: that we basically talk to Australian women all day every day, 468 00:20:19,381 --> 00:20:21,381 Speaker 1: and we hear their stories and we know what's interests 469 00:20:21,422 --> 00:20:23,662 Speaker 1: them and what's keeping them up at night and what's 470 00:20:23,742 --> 00:20:25,262 Speaker 1: making them happy and all those things. So I think 471 00:20:25,262 --> 00:20:26,782 Speaker 1: we're in a very privileged position to be able to 472 00:20:26,821 --> 00:20:30,142 Speaker 1: tap into that. But then you need every book needs 473 00:20:30,182 --> 00:20:33,341 Speaker 1: a device, right, it needs an overarching plot point that 474 00:20:33,381 --> 00:20:34,662 Speaker 1: you can sell to somebody. 475 00:20:34,702 --> 00:20:39,542 Speaker 4: And Elevator ten seconds are so hard at that. I mean, 476 00:20:39,581 --> 00:20:41,542 Speaker 4: I'm so bad at that rather, so I find that 477 00:20:41,661 --> 00:20:45,222 Speaker 4: so difficult. But I literally keep a sort of file 478 00:20:45,262 --> 00:20:47,101 Speaker 4: of ideas, just like Jesse's about to show us on 479 00:20:47,141 --> 00:20:49,581 Speaker 4: a phone where you're like, that's something and that's something. 480 00:20:49,581 --> 00:20:52,461 Speaker 4: And what usually happens is they'll be like that's something 481 00:20:52,502 --> 00:20:55,381 Speaker 4: and that's something, and then you like mush them together 482 00:20:55,462 --> 00:20:57,101 Speaker 4: and they turn into something, you know what I mean. 483 00:20:57,141 --> 00:20:59,821 Speaker 4: Like it's you're like getting all these little gems and 484 00:21:00,061 --> 00:21:02,302 Speaker 4: putting them in your bag and then an idea will 485 00:21:02,341 --> 00:21:05,542 Speaker 4: come out. But having said that, I am, and I've 486 00:21:05,581 --> 00:21:07,821 Speaker 4: said that I get I'm better at planning and plotting 487 00:21:07,821 --> 00:21:09,502 Speaker 4: because they say there are plotters and there are parents, 488 00:21:09,702 --> 00:21:11,542 Speaker 4: and the idea is that plotters know exactly what they're 489 00:21:11,542 --> 00:21:12,741 Speaker 4: gonna write and how they're going to write it, and 490 00:21:12,782 --> 00:21:15,622 Speaker 4: pantss kind of go as they go. I think instinctively, 491 00:21:15,661 --> 00:21:18,581 Speaker 4: I'm much more of a panther because very often when 492 00:21:18,621 --> 00:21:21,142 Speaker 4: I'm writing and I'm in the story, suddenly you'll be like, yes, 493 00:21:21,182 --> 00:21:23,262 Speaker 4: this needs to happen. Oh my god, this guy isn't 494 00:21:23,262 --> 00:21:25,782 Speaker 4: who I thought he was. This woman is like more 495 00:21:25,821 --> 00:21:27,621 Speaker 4: like this, and that's more like that, And so this 496 00:21:27,821 --> 00:21:30,741 Speaker 4: story also changes as you're writing, and then something might 497 00:21:30,821 --> 00:21:32,141 Speaker 4: happen in the world and you're like that would be 498 00:21:32,141 --> 00:21:34,262 Speaker 4: good to throw in or whatever that kind of stuff. 499 00:21:34,742 --> 00:21:37,782 Speaker 4: This is so embarrassing I would not let anyone in 500 00:21:37,821 --> 00:21:40,221 Speaker 4: my life open this document is the worst thing I've 501 00:21:40,262 --> 00:21:42,782 Speaker 4: ever seen. Okay, So at the top, I've just got tone, 502 00:21:42,982 --> 00:21:45,141 Speaker 4: like what tone I should do? Confident? 503 00:21:45,581 --> 00:21:50,581 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I like that dystopian. Ooh, I've got. 504 00:21:50,542 --> 00:21:54,262 Speaker 4: Then I've got teenage girl question mark. I watched Adolescents and. 505 00:21:57,302 --> 00:21:57,901 Speaker 3: Adolescence. 506 00:21:57,982 --> 00:22:00,421 Speaker 4: But a girl a book about what it is to 507 00:22:00,502 --> 00:22:02,661 Speaker 4: age and about what it is to die? 508 00:22:02,942 --> 00:22:04,742 Speaker 3: Would you read that? I don't know what it's about. 509 00:22:05,782 --> 00:22:09,221 Speaker 3: Then I've got yes. So what a person goes to 510 00:22:09,302 --> 00:22:15,022 Speaker 3: a place we cannot follow? Top point? 511 00:22:15,381 --> 00:22:16,101 Speaker 2: I love this. 512 00:22:16,341 --> 00:22:20,382 Speaker 4: This is so like my list the visitors. I don't 513 00:22:20,422 --> 00:22:21,302 Speaker 4: know who the visitors are. 514 00:22:21,581 --> 00:22:22,022 Speaker 3: Top point? 515 00:22:22,101 --> 00:22:24,821 Speaker 4: Good title summer holiday. Oh, top point, I've just got 516 00:22:24,821 --> 00:22:25,422 Speaker 4: around in July. 517 00:22:26,982 --> 00:22:31,462 Speaker 1: Everybody in publishing want July. Now that book was one 518 00:22:31,462 --> 00:22:34,302 Speaker 1: of those books that just genuinely original changes. 519 00:22:34,782 --> 00:22:37,821 Speaker 4: Okay, I've written a book with no idea. A house, 520 00:22:38,542 --> 00:22:42,701 Speaker 4: a visitor, he goes upstairs, something something old man. His 521 00:22:42,821 --> 00:22:46,061 Speaker 4: door is wide open. The house has been ransacked. But 522 00:22:46,141 --> 00:22:47,662 Speaker 4: what is missing? I'm going to die? 523 00:22:47,742 --> 00:22:54,941 Speaker 3: This is like, I love it. Document. This is so bad. 524 00:22:55,141 --> 00:22:57,302 Speaker 3: That's where I'm at, and I don't know what any 525 00:22:57,381 --> 00:22:58,542 Speaker 3: of that is trying to say. 526 00:22:58,782 --> 00:23:00,861 Speaker 1: I have lis like that on my phone about titles. 527 00:23:00,861 --> 00:23:02,222 Speaker 1: Book titles are really hard. 528 00:23:02,381 --> 00:23:06,102 Speaker 4: I find I always think I've got the title, realize 529 00:23:06,101 --> 00:23:09,061 Speaker 4: it's terrible, slash, get told it's terrible because it is. 530 00:23:09,061 --> 00:23:09,981 Speaker 3: And then terrible. 531 00:23:10,101 --> 00:23:13,742 Speaker 4: I have whiteboards, books, everything, and I'm like, it needs 532 00:23:13,782 --> 00:23:17,741 Speaker 4: to be like a saying, like a cliche yourself, and 533 00:23:17,782 --> 00:23:20,022 Speaker 4: I just can never really, I think you had I 534 00:23:20,022 --> 00:23:20,942 Speaker 4: give my marriage a year. 535 00:23:20,982 --> 00:23:21,341 Speaker 3: You had that. 536 00:23:22,141 --> 00:23:24,782 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's I think that. Actually the title. If you 537 00:23:24,901 --> 00:23:27,061 Speaker 1: can nail the title, Lily, it's a good sign for 538 00:23:27,101 --> 00:23:27,462 Speaker 1: the book. 539 00:23:28,222 --> 00:23:30,701 Speaker 3: And yeah, most people I know change it last week. 540 00:23:30,782 --> 00:23:33,942 Speaker 2: Yeah, really, I thought Heartsick was an excellent Oh. 541 00:23:33,861 --> 00:23:34,782 Speaker 3: Oh I hated that time. 542 00:23:36,381 --> 00:23:37,861 Speaker 4: Yeah, and then it was like it we had so 543 00:23:37,901 --> 00:23:40,821 Speaker 4: many different versions of it, and what did I I 544 00:23:40,861 --> 00:23:42,182 Speaker 4: want you to call it something. 545 00:23:42,101 --> 00:23:44,542 Speaker 2: Because heartbreak, heartache, like they're all words. 546 00:23:44,581 --> 00:23:47,542 Speaker 4: I wanted a new words for it, and I had 547 00:23:47,581 --> 00:23:49,302 Speaker 4: something else. And then I want I want them to 548 00:23:49,581 --> 00:23:51,662 Speaker 4: the cover to be really sophisticated, and I like, did 549 00:23:51,702 --> 00:23:54,542 Speaker 4: these drawings and they were so bad and they just 550 00:23:54,821 --> 00:23:56,782 Speaker 4: we just went back and forth and argued about it, 551 00:23:56,821 --> 00:23:58,222 Speaker 4: but they were ultimately right. 552 00:23:58,381 --> 00:24:01,542 Speaker 2: Of course, Okay, have you ever lied to your publisher 553 00:24:01,661 --> 00:24:03,061 Speaker 2: on how far you really are. 554 00:24:02,942 --> 00:24:06,261 Speaker 1: With your book? Do you tell you? Every single time? 555 00:24:06,942 --> 00:24:10,261 Speaker 1: They know, they do know, And unfortunately for Jesse and 556 00:24:10,302 --> 00:24:12,542 Speaker 1: I in particular, we have the same publisher actually, well 557 00:24:12,621 --> 00:24:16,941 Speaker 1: the same publishing house. They listen to those shows, so 558 00:24:16,982 --> 00:24:17,422 Speaker 1: it's like. 559 00:24:17,462 --> 00:24:19,782 Speaker 4: My worship of the week is I haven't started my book. 560 00:24:19,821 --> 00:24:21,142 Speaker 4: And then you get a message. 561 00:24:20,782 --> 00:24:22,702 Speaker 3: And it's like, how are you going? You're like great, 562 00:24:24,222 --> 00:24:24,982 Speaker 3: doing so well? 563 00:24:26,182 --> 00:24:28,861 Speaker 1: Yes I do. I often lie. They're like how's it going. 564 00:24:28,861 --> 00:24:32,062 Speaker 1: I'm like, it's going great. Do you think you're on track? Definitely? 565 00:24:32,182 --> 00:24:34,982 Speaker 1: And then I'm like, ah, Like a lot of writing 566 00:24:35,022 --> 00:24:38,861 Speaker 1: to deadline is fear and panic, no question about it. 567 00:24:38,901 --> 00:24:41,542 Speaker 1: I think guilt and shame helped fear and panic. Guilt 568 00:24:41,581 --> 00:24:43,542 Speaker 1: and shame. This is sounding good, isn't it great? 569 00:24:44,182 --> 00:24:46,022 Speaker 4: Yeah, Self hatred will get you to the point where 570 00:24:46,061 --> 00:24:48,181 Speaker 4: you're like, I can't let anyone else down, and then 571 00:24:48,341 --> 00:24:52,061 Speaker 4: you write in that space, which is really healthy. I've 572 00:24:52,182 --> 00:24:55,461 Speaker 4: definitely lied, although I've I have to tell myself and 573 00:24:55,502 --> 00:24:58,061 Speaker 4: I don't think this is true that if I miss 574 00:24:58,101 --> 00:24:59,901 Speaker 4: the deadline I have to give them money back, Like 575 00:24:59,942 --> 00:25:01,982 Speaker 4: I have some kind of view around that and I've 576 00:25:02,022 --> 00:25:05,302 Speaker 4: been so diligent with my deadlines. I think it's just 577 00:25:05,341 --> 00:25:08,662 Speaker 4: I don't want this book to be unfinished at this 578 00:25:08,661 --> 00:25:11,262 Speaker 4: point or way. So I tried to be really really 579 00:25:11,302 --> 00:25:14,421 Speaker 4: good with that, and I go through stages of panic 580 00:25:14,422 --> 00:25:16,382 Speaker 4: where I go, you've only got this many months left 581 00:25:16,381 --> 00:25:17,661 Speaker 4: and you've written these many words, And then I go, 582 00:25:18,502 --> 00:25:20,461 Speaker 4: so I don't write every day. I'm not that person 583 00:25:20,542 --> 00:25:21,942 Speaker 4: that's really disciplined. 584 00:25:21,982 --> 00:25:24,061 Speaker 3: Every day. I lean in and out and in and 585 00:25:24,061 --> 00:25:24,702 Speaker 3: out and just. 586 00:25:25,141 --> 00:25:27,502 Speaker 1: Say boss over. The problem is because we've worked with 587 00:25:27,542 --> 00:25:31,501 Speaker 1: deadlines forever. Deadlines motivate me. If if my deadline isn't looming, 588 00:25:31,621 --> 00:25:36,061 Speaker 1: I'm like, you know, looking at my nail, Homer Simpsons 589 00:25:36,061 --> 00:25:38,902 Speaker 1: Carousel going in my head, and then as the deadline 590 00:25:38,901 --> 00:25:41,581 Speaker 1: comes into view and you're like, oh, now you'll do it. Adrenaline, 591 00:25:41,621 --> 00:25:45,141 Speaker 1: definitely adrenaline. But also book deadlines are long, as in 592 00:25:45,302 --> 00:25:47,022 Speaker 1: you hand it in and it doesn't get published for 593 00:25:47,061 --> 00:25:48,982 Speaker 1: like a year. And for the likes of us who 594 00:25:49,022 --> 00:25:50,821 Speaker 1: record a show in the morning and it goes out 595 00:25:50,821 --> 00:25:52,542 Speaker 1: in the afternoon, or you ride a post and it 596 00:25:52,581 --> 00:25:55,021 Speaker 1: goes up straight away, like, I'm always like, why do 597 00:25:55,061 --> 00:25:58,061 Speaker 1: you need so long? Yes, I'm always tried to like 598 00:25:58,061 --> 00:25:59,862 Speaker 1: a movie. I always trying to push that a bit. 599 00:25:59,901 --> 00:26:02,021 Speaker 4: I'm like, do you really need or do you need 600 00:26:02,061 --> 00:26:03,621 Speaker 4: it on a Friday when you're not even gonna worate 601 00:26:03,621 --> 00:26:04,142 Speaker 4: it till month? 602 00:26:04,381 --> 00:26:06,901 Speaker 1: Thinks that's always me. I'm like, no Friday deadlines, Like 603 00:26:06,942 --> 00:26:08,941 Speaker 1: Friday deadlines are bullshit. I'm going to give it you 604 00:26:09,022 --> 00:26:09,461 Speaker 1: on Sunday. 605 00:26:11,022 --> 00:26:15,101 Speaker 2: Well, both of you said, most writers, like yourselves don't 606 00:26:15,182 --> 00:26:17,581 Speaker 2: write books full time, Like you have a full time 607 00:26:17,661 --> 00:26:20,421 Speaker 2: job before you started writing books, How did you plan 608 00:26:20,782 --> 00:26:23,542 Speaker 2: that next stage of your life to look like, including 609 00:26:23,542 --> 00:26:25,901 Speaker 2: writing books, and how do you structure your days and 610 00:26:26,022 --> 00:26:27,061 Speaker 2: you also have a full time job. 611 00:26:27,222 --> 00:26:29,382 Speaker 3: It does not get written without planning. 612 00:26:29,542 --> 00:26:32,302 Speaker 4: Like if you think you're just going to find time 613 00:26:33,341 --> 00:26:36,262 Speaker 4: to sit down and write eighty thousand words, you're just not. 614 00:26:36,462 --> 00:26:39,381 Speaker 4: Like you've got a forge out time like Trent Dalton 615 00:26:39,381 --> 00:26:42,022 Speaker 4: told me he did eight till ten every night. Other 616 00:26:42,061 --> 00:26:45,941 Speaker 4: people do like a Saturday morning every week, or like 617 00:26:45,982 --> 00:26:49,342 Speaker 4: you've got to have a time when you're committed to 618 00:26:49,381 --> 00:26:51,742 Speaker 4: it and with heart sick. I remember, I think I 619 00:26:51,782 --> 00:26:53,821 Speaker 4: took a week off work to really focus on it, 620 00:26:54,061 --> 00:26:56,262 Speaker 4: and that was during COVID, So actually I had more 621 00:26:56,302 --> 00:26:57,981 Speaker 4: time than most would have. 622 00:26:58,581 --> 00:27:00,542 Speaker 3: I do stop watch for nearly everything. 623 00:27:00,581 --> 00:27:03,101 Speaker 4: I go, all right, we're going to do like thirty minutes, 624 00:27:03,462 --> 00:27:04,982 Speaker 4: and then often by the time I check my phone 625 00:27:04,982 --> 00:27:07,302 Speaker 4: it's been forty two. And then I feel satisfied, and 626 00:27:07,341 --> 00:27:09,221 Speaker 4: then I kind of do it like that. But it's 627 00:27:09,262 --> 00:27:10,021 Speaker 4: got to be planned. 628 00:27:10,141 --> 00:27:12,621 Speaker 1: It's same. I wrote the Mommy Bloggers at night because 629 00:27:12,621 --> 00:27:14,262 Speaker 1: I was obviously working full time, and I did it 630 00:27:14,302 --> 00:27:16,542 Speaker 1: between eight and ten like Trent, until I took that 631 00:27:16,581 --> 00:27:18,981 Speaker 1: month off. The annoying thing about my children is now 632 00:27:19,022 --> 00:27:21,061 Speaker 1: they don't go to bed at that time, so that's 633 00:27:21,702 --> 00:27:24,141 Speaker 1: now it's harder. So but now obviously I try and 634 00:27:24,182 --> 00:27:26,022 Speaker 1: get my mom and Mia work done early in the week, 635 00:27:26,061 --> 00:27:27,941 Speaker 1: and I try and write on Thursdays and Fridays and 636 00:27:27,982 --> 00:27:30,702 Speaker 1: Saturdays and Sundays. But it doesn't always get that neat, 637 00:27:30,782 --> 00:27:31,662 Speaker 1: But that's the idea. 638 00:27:32,742 --> 00:27:35,902 Speaker 2: How did you tell friends about whether they influenced any 639 00:27:35,982 --> 00:27:37,421 Speaker 2: characters in your book? 640 00:27:37,581 --> 00:27:40,302 Speaker 1: My experiences is that all your friends think they're in 641 00:27:40,341 --> 00:27:43,502 Speaker 1: your books. Everybody thinks it's like the Carl Simon song. 642 00:27:43,581 --> 00:27:46,221 Speaker 1: Everybody thinks that the book is about them, right, So 643 00:27:47,022 --> 00:27:49,222 Speaker 1: a lot of my friends, obviously with he would never 644 00:27:49,302 --> 00:27:51,262 Speaker 1: it's I've said lots of times that I do go 645 00:27:51,341 --> 00:27:54,142 Speaker 1: on camping with a group of friends once a year, families, 646 00:27:54,422 --> 00:27:56,381 Speaker 1: and that's the story of the book. So that's obviously 647 00:27:56,621 --> 00:27:59,141 Speaker 1: and everyone's like, are they in it? And my friends 648 00:27:59,141 --> 00:28:01,581 Speaker 1: themselves were like, AHI in it, and they were really nervous. 649 00:28:01,581 --> 00:28:03,581 Speaker 1: And I took all the books, the first editions of 650 00:28:03,621 --> 00:28:06,061 Speaker 1: the books to the camping trip because time aligned, and 651 00:28:06,182 --> 00:28:08,382 Speaker 1: handed them out, and the girls were and the men 652 00:28:08,422 --> 00:28:10,662 Speaker 1: were all like grabbing them and flicking through them looking 653 00:28:10,661 --> 00:28:12,901 Speaker 1: for themselves. But they're not in it. It's not that 654 00:28:13,101 --> 00:28:15,782 Speaker 1: like people think it's like that, but it's not like that. 655 00:28:15,942 --> 00:28:17,861 Speaker 4: I find that the thing you actually have to do 656 00:28:18,101 --> 00:28:20,182 Speaker 4: is say you are going to read about this character. 657 00:28:20,502 --> 00:28:21,421 Speaker 1: They're not you. 658 00:28:21,821 --> 00:28:24,582 Speaker 4: They're not and they really really aren't. And there are 659 00:28:24,581 --> 00:28:26,101 Speaker 4: some things where I've gone, oh, that would really hurt 660 00:28:26,101 --> 00:28:28,342 Speaker 4: that person if they thought that was kind of based 661 00:28:28,422 --> 00:28:28,781 Speaker 4: on you. 662 00:28:28,982 --> 00:28:31,421 Speaker 1: And you might take things that have happened to people 663 00:28:31,422 --> 00:28:33,141 Speaker 1: in your lives and put them in your books in 664 00:28:33,182 --> 00:28:35,581 Speaker 1: a way, but it's not like the whole point of fiction. 665 00:28:35,621 --> 00:28:37,821 Speaker 1: And this is what I say to people all the time. 666 00:28:37,901 --> 00:28:40,622 Speaker 1: It is like, of course it's inspired by my life 667 00:28:40,622 --> 00:28:42,822 Speaker 1: and people I know, But I'm not writing about you. 668 00:28:43,062 --> 00:28:46,062 Speaker 1: I would never like. There are some amazing plots in 669 00:28:46,102 --> 00:28:48,781 Speaker 1: my friend groups that like, as I'm sure with all 670 00:28:48,822 --> 00:28:51,542 Speaker 1: of us that you're like, somebody should write that, but 671 00:28:51,702 --> 00:28:52,342 Speaker 1: I can't. 672 00:28:52,422 --> 00:28:55,461 Speaker 4: And I find that in smushing things together, like this 673 00:28:55,502 --> 00:28:59,542 Speaker 4: will be something my friend said and then something he 674 00:28:59,582 --> 00:29:02,662 Speaker 4: would never do, though, and I'm kind of borrowing from 675 00:29:02,742 --> 00:29:04,422 Speaker 4: all of them in order for it to even make 676 00:29:04,462 --> 00:29:05,822 Speaker 4: sense in my head. 677 00:29:05,982 --> 00:29:09,021 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're frank insteining people in the world and together. 678 00:29:09,542 --> 00:29:12,981 Speaker 1: What happens is when authors a super successful you know, 679 00:29:13,142 --> 00:29:15,421 Speaker 1: somebody or maybe a family member or whatever will be like, 680 00:29:15,462 --> 00:29:18,222 Speaker 1: you stole my life, and it's like, well, maybe they did, 681 00:29:18,262 --> 00:29:21,622 Speaker 1: but what's much more likely is you're imposing your life 682 00:29:21,622 --> 00:29:23,822 Speaker 1: on that character. Having said that, when I wrote I 683 00:29:23,822 --> 00:29:26,182 Speaker 1: Give My Marriage Year, my bestie Penny was going through 684 00:29:26,262 --> 00:29:29,701 Speaker 1: a marriage breakup or maybe had just gone through marriage breakup, 685 00:29:29,702 --> 00:29:31,462 Speaker 1: and I dedicated that book to her. But I've made 686 00:29:31,502 --> 00:29:34,382 Speaker 1: it even so clear in my dedication that like, this 687 00:29:34,422 --> 00:29:36,862 Speaker 1: is not your story, yours has not yet been written, 688 00:29:37,222 --> 00:29:40,941 Speaker 1: like because it wasn't her story at all. It's just 689 00:29:41,022 --> 00:29:43,661 Speaker 1: I was familiar like around me, a lot of my 690 00:29:43,702 --> 00:29:46,181 Speaker 1: friends were going through these questioning periods. So it was 691 00:29:46,222 --> 00:29:48,102 Speaker 1: something that was very close to me and I could 692 00:29:48,182 --> 00:29:49,862 Speaker 1: understand it and touch it and feel it. 693 00:29:49,902 --> 00:29:50,661 Speaker 3: But it was nothing. 694 00:29:50,702 --> 00:29:53,981 Speaker 1: It was nothing like my friend's lives. You know, you 695 00:29:54,062 --> 00:29:54,982 Speaker 1: have to have a line. 696 00:29:55,182 --> 00:29:58,302 Speaker 2: Yeah, your book's been published, it hit the shelves, you've 697 00:29:58,302 --> 00:30:02,022 Speaker 2: given it to your friends. Do you reread the published version, 698 00:30:02,102 --> 00:30:02,782 Speaker 2: the final version? 699 00:30:02,782 --> 00:30:03,422 Speaker 1: If it's too short? 700 00:30:03,462 --> 00:30:04,222 Speaker 3: Why would you ever? 701 00:30:04,982 --> 00:30:08,582 Speaker 1: I generally don't, But there is an exception to this, 702 00:30:08,582 --> 00:30:10,782 Speaker 1: this book when I feel because this book, I was 703 00:30:10,862 --> 00:30:12,981 Speaker 1: in such he would never I was in such a 704 00:30:13,062 --> 00:30:17,661 Speaker 1: spiral of like confidence crisis. And I remember having dinner 705 00:30:17,702 --> 00:30:20,582 Speaker 1: with Jesse and Mia not long after they'd read it 706 00:30:20,622 --> 00:30:22,461 Speaker 1: for the first time, right, and I was like, I 707 00:30:22,502 --> 00:30:24,742 Speaker 1: don't think it's any good. They were both saying really 708 00:30:24,822 --> 00:30:26,662 Speaker 1: nice things about it, and I was like. 709 00:30:26,661 --> 00:30:27,941 Speaker 3: I don't think it's any good. 710 00:30:28,102 --> 00:30:30,262 Speaker 1: I think it's rubbish. I don't think I can write. 711 00:30:30,702 --> 00:30:34,262 Speaker 1: And Jesse told me read it. Go and read that book. 712 00:30:34,342 --> 00:30:36,701 Speaker 1: It's much better than you think it is. Because you 713 00:30:36,862 --> 00:30:38,502 Speaker 1: all you could see were the edits that you'd made. 714 00:30:38,661 --> 00:30:40,262 Speaker 1: I couldn't see the edit and I was looking for 715 00:30:40,262 --> 00:30:41,822 Speaker 1: the edits, and I was like, there's no mess here. 716 00:30:41,862 --> 00:30:42,461 Speaker 3: This is an. 717 00:30:42,342 --> 00:30:47,142 Speaker 4: Incredibly like cohesive, brilliant, strong, suspenseful story and you needed 718 00:30:47,182 --> 00:30:48,742 Speaker 4: to see it beginning to end, which you hadn't. 719 00:30:48,822 --> 00:30:50,741 Speaker 1: Yeah, because when you got like proof copies that you 720 00:30:50,742 --> 00:30:52,302 Speaker 1: give to you mates, it's still got a round of 721 00:30:52,382 --> 00:30:54,382 Speaker 1: edits to go through and you have to do that 722 00:30:54,422 --> 00:30:56,382 Speaker 1: line at it. And so when I read it, I 723 00:30:56,422 --> 00:30:58,702 Speaker 1: took Jesse's advice and I read it again, but kind 724 00:30:58,702 --> 00:31:02,062 Speaker 1: of more like a reader than an author, and she 725 00:31:02,182 --> 00:31:05,582 Speaker 1: was right, it was okay. So sometimes I think we 726 00:31:05,622 --> 00:31:08,662 Speaker 1: should read our books because you know, like they live 727 00:31:08,742 --> 00:31:11,422 Speaker 1: in your mind. The experience of writing it will always 728 00:31:11,902 --> 00:31:13,941 Speaker 1: touch it, whether that was a happy time or a 729 00:31:13,982 --> 00:31:16,262 Speaker 1: sad time or a difficult time or whatever. All I 730 00:31:16,262 --> 00:31:18,142 Speaker 1: can say is the red of the editor. Yes, and 731 00:31:18,182 --> 00:31:20,181 Speaker 1: you know what you changed and what you didn't change. 732 00:31:20,222 --> 00:31:23,062 Speaker 1: So I think we probably should maybe go back and 733 00:31:23,062 --> 00:31:24,782 Speaker 1: read them sometimes and be like, oh, I wasn't that 734 00:31:24,902 --> 00:31:25,462 Speaker 1: too bad? 735 00:31:25,742 --> 00:31:27,822 Speaker 4: There are so many great books that have been written, 736 00:31:27,822 --> 00:31:29,662 Speaker 4: and I don't want to spend more time with mine. 737 00:31:29,742 --> 00:31:34,661 Speaker 1: Well that's true. Shout out to any Mamma Mia subscribers listening. 738 00:31:34,742 --> 00:31:37,142 Speaker 1: If you love the show and you want to support us, 739 00:31:37,422 --> 00:31:40,142 Speaker 1: subscribing to Mamma Mia is the very best way to 740 00:31:40,182 --> 00:31:42,542 Speaker 1: do it. There's a link in the episode description.