Speaker 1: Welcome to the Seize the Yay Podcast. Busy and happy
Speaker 1: are not the same thing. We too rarely question what
Speaker 1: makes the heart seeing. We work, then we rest, but
Speaker 1: rarely we play and often don't realize there's more than
Speaker 1: one way. So this is a platform to hear and
Speaker 1: explore the stories of those who found lives they adore,
Speaker 1: the good, bad and ugly, the best and worst day
Speaker 1: will bear all the facets of Seizing your Yea. I'm
Speaker 1: Sarah Davidson or a spoonful of Sarah, a lawyer turned
Speaker 1: unentrepreneur who swapped the suits and heels to co found
Speaker 1: matcha Maiden and matcha Milk. Bark Sees the Ya is
Speaker 1: a series of conversations on finding a life you love
Speaker 1: and exploring the self doubt, challenge, joy and fulfillment along
Speaker 1: the way. Lovely yighborhood as promised, here is part two
Speaker 1: of what could easily have snowballed into an eight hundred
Speaker 1: and seventy five part series with my dear friend, doctor
Speaker 1: Matt Agnew. I'm sure you guys can hear now why
Speaker 1: we get along so well. He's just such an easy
Speaker 1: conversationalist and we always go off on the most random
Speaker 1: but enjoyable tangents. Even still with two parts, there is
Speaker 1: so much we didn't get to about this fascinating human being,
Speaker 1: and that's all without really touching on The Bachelor at all.
Speaker 1: So I do hope that you have enjoyed getting to
Speaker 1: know a different side of him for his proper intro
Speaker 1: and bio. Go back to the first part. We pick
Speaker 1: up in this episode right where we left off, which,
Speaker 1: as it turns out, wasn't very far into his story
Speaker 1: at all or his WATA. I think we made it
Speaker 1: to the tender age of twelve in the timeline, and
Speaker 1: there's still so much more ahead, so who knows. Part
Speaker 1: three could still come at you in the future, But
Speaker 1: in the meantime, I do hope you guys enjoy this
Speaker 1: part two. Matthew Terrence agnew and because I'm just distinguishing
Speaker 1: it from matt from The Bachelor, I feel like there's
Speaker 1: to be a distinguisher, and that's Matthew Terrence, and that's
Speaker 1: Matthew Terrence because I feel like that's a little lesser
Speaker 1: known fact.
Speaker 2: Anyway, my middle name or name, yeah, it is Lesson
Speaker 2: and it's also spelt I think no, you're a singlar
Speaker 2: and an E because I think the standard spelling of
Speaker 2: Terrence I think is T A n C. Mine is
Speaker 2: T E R E n C.
Speaker 1: Yes, okay, which is yeah.
Speaker 2: I'm not sure why my folks opted for that, but
Speaker 2: they just fun yeah, And I feel my parents told
Speaker 2: me this, and they deny this story to me now,
Speaker 2: but they said that they gave me and my older brother.
Speaker 2: So my eldest brother and my eldest I've only got
Speaker 2: one sister, but they got the standard kind of like grandparents' names.
Speaker 2: My oldest brother got Alan Thomas, and my sister got
Speaker 2: Flora Charlotte's beautiful. Yeah. So me and then me and
Speaker 2: my other brother was like, okay, well, what are we
Speaker 2: giving them for their middle names?
Speaker 1: You're just chucking to misspelled Terrence were miss spelled Terrence.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So basically we got variations of my dad's name,
Speaker 2: which is Terry. So I got Terrence and my brother
Speaker 2: got Edward because there was at the time some of
Speaker 2: the rallies called him.
Speaker 1: Ted Oh my god, I know that was born. I
Speaker 1: don't know. He's long yes on his passport.
Speaker 2: Why did I think it was just I.
Speaker 1: Think because we've always said Teddy, yeah, but Edwards his
Speaker 1: passport names. Okay, there you go.
Speaker 2: So we got Yeah, so Mark Edward and Matthew Terrence
Speaker 2: and my parents I swear they told me this was
Speaker 2: They wanted to give us the sort of regal sounding
Speaker 2: name for when we eventually get knighted.
Speaker 1: Nice. I love that. That is why.
Speaker 2: Sir Matthew hasn't got the same ring as Sir Matthew Terrence,
Speaker 2: just like Sir Mark or Sir Mark Edward's true. They
Speaker 2: deny this story, and so now I'm second guessing I've
Speaker 2: just made this. I don't know now because I'm like, hey, on,
Speaker 2: have my parents they've told me this completely made up,
Speaker 2: fabricated story and now are denying it, or have I
Speaker 2: made this up in my head? I'm like, yeah, they
Speaker 2: thought we're going to get knighted one day.
Speaker 1: Are you gaslighting yourself? Gaslighting?
Speaker 2: You don't know? The former?
Speaker 1: Probably basically story though.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So that's yeah, that's the origin of Terrence.
Speaker 1: I mean, when you do go to space and get knighted, inevitable,
Speaker 1: you'll laugh when you're like, I am Sir Matthew Terrence,
Speaker 1: agne the astronaut, the astronaut direct, Yeah, and then you
Speaker 1: can be so doctor actually, oh my God, what comes
Speaker 1: first the hierarchy of titles? Is it doctor, sir? Or
Speaker 1: would you just drop doctor drop.
Speaker 2: Because you can do doctor or you can book PhD.
Speaker 2: At the end new PhD. I slapped that out of
Speaker 2: the end, slap sir at the start.
Speaker 1: So you've got it's like bookmarks. Yeah, that is a
Speaker 1: good bookmark your booking.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what, Matthew Terrence agnew PhD.
Speaker 1: That's nice. That's nice. And then you'd add like an
Speaker 1: O I m at the end when you get your
Speaker 1: Order of Australian Medal.
Speaker 2: Correct. Yeah, So I've got a few things I need
Speaker 2: to achieve from here, yeah, and not a ton of
Speaker 2: time to do it.
Speaker 1: Well. I'm like I started so strong on the first ever,
Speaker 1: so on part one, being like I want to introduce
Speaker 1: that not from a bachelora and blaha, warn't show who
Speaker 1: you are, and then I made it to like, you know,
Speaker 1: the age of twelve. I think that's as far as
Speaker 1: I got.
Speaker 2: So, yeah, I can't remember how deep we got because
Speaker 2: you've had a number of these conversations offline.
Speaker 1: I think maybe that's why. Because I was like, where
Speaker 1: are we up to? And I just and then tangents
Speaker 1: and it really is when you want to showcase every guest,
Speaker 1: I want to showcase the best side of them that
Speaker 1: I can. But when it's your friend, you know so
Speaker 1: many more sides than you do about the average person
Speaker 1: that then every tangent, Like normally I would like go
Speaker 1: of a tangent and go that's not the best one.
Speaker 1: Let's like focus on the one. Whereas with a friend
Speaker 1: you're like, well, I need to pick up on that
Speaker 1: because I know something about it. It's like you've done
Speaker 1: too much research, Like I'm too well researched on Sir Matthew,
Speaker 1: transact me pha I am. It's like a really different composition.
Speaker 2: But you're saying it's like you find doing interviewing friends harder.
Speaker 2: It's a challenge for you.
Speaker 1: It's more because you put more pressure on yourself because
Speaker 1: you know them better. So it's like your passion to
Speaker 1: convey something is greater than like you always want to
Speaker 1: convey someone in the best way you can, but when
Speaker 1: you're invested in the person as well, you're like, I
Speaker 1: want to show everything about this person that other people
Speaker 1: might not know. And then yeah, halfway through you're like, wow,
Speaker 1: I made it to like dot point one of four
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty seven and like we're not even all
Speaker 1: the way through your life yet, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: Like Jesus, we haven't even made it to the knighthood yet. No,
Speaker 1: that was really sweat.
Speaker 2: It was really sweet, because sweet and misplaced when you
Speaker 2: were apologizing after our last recording because you felt you
Speaker 2: didn't get deeper and it was Yeah, as I said,
Speaker 2: it was a misplaced apology. It was no apology necessarily. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it was really sweet to see this such a high
Speaker 2: level of quality you hold yourself too, That's what it
Speaker 2: was flattered that you wanted to have a second art
Speaker 2: as well because it was so much fun last time. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so yes, no, thank you bring back.
Speaker 1: I really listened and I did enjoy that. I think
Speaker 1: maybe like decide I wanted of you maybe did come
Speaker 1: out more or because we weren't so structured, like maybe
Speaker 1: it was more like this is who matters when he's
Speaker 1: just chatting with a friend.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think that's because you don't necessarily
Speaker 2: always see that. Certainly with social media, I've been able
Speaker 2: to allow a lot of my personality to MOI a lot.
Speaker 1: More of my personality.
Speaker 2: Fun. Yeah, yeah, I've been able to allow more of
Speaker 2: my personality out in social media and just in general,
Speaker 2: just people seeing me more naturally and less curated as
Speaker 2: they were first introduced to me. But you still don't
Speaker 2: necessarily see these the tangents. Yeah, how does his friendship opera? Yeah,
Speaker 2: I think it's It's like you said that, the unstructuredness
Speaker 2: of it was actually quite nice. Yeah, well, I.
Speaker 1: Really enjoyed it. But then when I was actually going
Speaker 1: back to the questions afterwards, I was like, I literally
Speaker 1: started your way toa around like taking time off school
Speaker 1: and I think it was primary school. I don't even
Speaker 1: know if I got to high school. But then didn't
Speaker 1: even cover like any of your jobs, both of your
Speaker 1: books AI, which is like the biggest topic. You've literally
Speaker 1: gone and restudied it your business crash. Like, I was like,
Speaker 1: what did I cover anything? So let's go back, let's
Speaker 1: pick up where we left off. There are so many
Speaker 1: things that I wanted to talk to you about, but
Speaker 1: I think I need to start with dating purely because
Speaker 1: the DM I mean, I can't even imagine what your
Speaker 1: dms are, Like my dms before the episode even came out,
Speaker 1: just saying I recorded with you were bananas, But one
Speaker 1: thing that we did kind of give a like allude
Speaker 1: to a little bit last time was the fact that
Speaker 1: we had both had a big period and you would
Speaker 1: continue to be in this big period of quitting alcohol,
Speaker 1: and that certainly we bonded over something over and past.
Speaker 1: Your business has been sort of one of the beautiful
Speaker 1: developments out of that. But to bring it back to dating, firstly,
Speaker 1: a lot of people were like easy single, such an
Speaker 1: eligible guy, blah blah blah. Like I was like, I
Speaker 1: know this, Like what what do you want me to
Speaker 1: do with this information? But we didn't talk about it,
Speaker 1: not yesterday but in the last episode. So I have
Speaker 1: a couple of questions about it. Is dating post bachelor
Speaker 1: easier or harder? Post alcohol easier or harder? Because I
Speaker 1: think that's a really interesting question and post mental health
Speaker 1: diagnoses easier or harder? Big questions they are?
Speaker 2: They are big, They're meaty.
Speaker 1: They're meaty. Why did I start with this? We're still
Speaker 1: not going to get to astrophys exactly are dating episode?
Speaker 2: Let's see if I can do this without so many tangents.
Speaker 2: Is it harder or easier post batch? It's hard to
Speaker 2: kind of go one way or the other. There is
Speaker 2: a huge change in it. I would say I probably
Speaker 2: get more matches on dating apps, and I imagine in
Speaker 2: large part that is due to the fact that I
Speaker 2: was on a TV show and I'm a known person.
Speaker 2: I don't think anything materially has changed other than that
Speaker 2: in regards to the change in number of matches. There's
Speaker 2: a challenge in that it's harder to discern is someone
Speaker 2: swiping on me because they're interested to get to know me,
Speaker 2: or the kind of keener date the year, or if
Speaker 2: it's a novelty, or trying to understand what's their motivation,
Speaker 2: and that's a little harder to figure out. Sometimes I
Speaker 2: think I'm much better at it. That's kind of been
Speaker 2: a bit of a challenge. Another challenge related to it
Speaker 2: is there's a lot of articles out there of which
Speaker 2: I have no control over, that are typically completely inaccurate,
Speaker 2: not amazing and no amazing, and that sometimes has impacted dating.
Speaker 2: So as an example, I went on four or five
Speaker 2: dates with this woman. We're getting on really well, it
Speaker 2: was all really going great, and we'll teeing up date six,
Speaker 2: and then she basically canceled. It's out. I don't think
Speaker 2: we should meet up. You have a very public dating life.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay.
Speaker 2: The reality is if you look at my Instagram, if
Speaker 2: you look at any of the articles, I've never shared
Speaker 2: details about who I've dated. There's no one on my Instagram.
Speaker 2: There's daily mail articles where there's been these made up
Speaker 2: stories about who I'm dating. And I think we've joked
Speaker 2: about this basically whenever I get a photo with someone
Speaker 2: with compatible genitals, obviously, yeah, obviously it's like they're dating. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So those articles, if someone's read them and thinks, oh,
Speaker 2: he's look at all these people he's dating, it's always
Speaker 2: in the news. I mean, none of them are true.
Speaker 2: And I've always been very private with my dating life
Speaker 2: and with basically anyone in my life, really my friends
Speaker 2: and family as well. I made a very significant decision
Speaker 2: when I went on TV to concede a lot of
Speaker 2: my privacy. No one else in my life made that decision,
Speaker 2: and so I really am deeply respectful of the fact
Speaker 2: that they are entitled to that privacy. And so if
Speaker 2: you look through my Instagram, there's not loads of my
Speaker 2: family there, and that's not because I'm ashamed of them
Speaker 2: or they're ashamed of me, but they value their privacy
Speaker 2: my friends, they're there in bits and pieces. Again, whenever
Speaker 2: I post something, they always make sure they're comfortable with that,
Speaker 2: and there's no nothing, there's no shreds of the people
Speaker 2: I've dated on there, because I've always been very private
Speaker 2: about my dating life. So that was a frustration because
Speaker 2: it was, you know, she said I had a very
Speaker 2: public dating life, whereas I have quite the opposite. No
Speaker 2: one could tell team. You couldn't say who have I
Speaker 2: dated other than the person I dated on The Bachelor?
Speaker 2: Tell me who I've dated in the last five years,
Speaker 2: and none would be able to say that other than
Speaker 2: my friends that I know in person. So that was
Speaker 2: a frustration that's kind of come about. So is it
Speaker 2: harder or easier post Bachelor? It's a different challenge. It's
Speaker 2: a different challenge, I think I certainly, and I know
Speaker 2: for a lot of men on dating apps, the biggest
Speaker 2: challenge is just getting a match. So I'm in a
Speaker 2: luxurious position where I don't have that as the challenging aspect,
Speaker 2: because that's really hard to adjust. If you're just not
Speaker 2: getting matches, it's really hard to figure out. It's not
Speaker 2: a case of I need to do something different in
Speaker 2: how I'm engaging or whatever's what's wrong with my profile
Speaker 2: that's not resonating with people. So I don't have that
Speaker 2: challenge as much.
Speaker 1: That's because you're a data scientist and you crunch the data.
Speaker 3: Well, finally enough some of the as now have insight
Speaker 3: for it. Child you which photos people are slid to
Speaker 3: go on more. So I'm like, okay, so this is
Speaker 3: the good one. So there are data analytics behind the
Speaker 3: scenes as well. So yeah, the game, I'm like, what
Speaker 3: I know about this because I have periods where I'm like.
Speaker 2: I'm not dating. It's too hard, you know, it takes
Speaker 2: an emotional toll. And then I'll have periods I'm jumping
Speaker 2: back in and usually after that period of something news happened.
Speaker 1: Dates.
Speaker 2: Yeah, analytics, now I can see the data, but it's
Speaker 2: really I'll use it as an example. So the last
Speaker 2: kind of this year, the last five people I've dated,
Speaker 2: to give you an example of of I guess the
Speaker 2: frustration I'm facing. One of them we probably dated for
Speaker 2: a period of about three months. You know, a dozen
Speaker 2: or so dates just ghosted me after three months. I
Speaker 2: thought that's pretty brutal. Another one we on a few dates,
Speaker 2: ghosted me a week and a half l artext and
Speaker 2: I was like, hey, just just seeing what happened to you.
Speaker 2: Found out she had someone else, it wasn't going anywhere,
Speaker 2: so then started dating me, and then the other one
Speaker 2: changed their mind. So I was kind of just like,
Speaker 2: I don't know the standby anyway, the third was the
Speaker 2: one who changed their mind because the dating the fourth
Speaker 2: where it went on some dates and then kind of
Speaker 2: just suddenly goes, oh, I want an open relationship, and
Speaker 2: I'm like, that's fine, that's just not a compatibility for me.
Speaker 2: Everyone's got preferences. And then the fifth one, and this
Speaker 2: happens all the time. We get like foal six dates
Speaker 2: in and suddenly it's you're perfect, You're amazing. But I'm
Speaker 2: just not ready to date code for because I've had
Speaker 2: probably in the last like two or three years, I
Speaker 2: would have had a dozen women say this to me,
Speaker 2: the same thing, the same thing, like, you know, significantly
Speaker 2: into dating. It's not like half the first couple of dates.
Speaker 2: It's date six, seven, eight, and it's always the same thing,
Speaker 2: You're perfect, You're amazing, like Sharer with connglents, and I
Speaker 2: even some of them are like, Okay, yeah, that's cool,
Speaker 2: thanks letting me know. Probably half of them like, hey,
Speaker 2: just checking, like you don't need a sugarcoat.
Speaker 1: Like yeah, I want to exit into in the.
Speaker 2: Most normal, casual ways, like hey, just let me know,
Speaker 2: like you know, and they just double down on what
Speaker 2: they're saying yea. And so people are like, you know,
Speaker 2: why are you still single? What's what's wrong with you?
Speaker 2: And I'm like, well, I don't think anything. I mean,
Speaker 2: if there was something wrong, hopefully I would have figured
Speaker 2: it out by now all my friends would have told me.
Speaker 2: And I don't know if I'm just tremendously unlucky that
Speaker 2: I keep going on these dates to people and ending
Speaker 2: up in that situation. But it's yeah, I just I'm
Speaker 2: confused about why that seems to be the case.
Speaker 1: That's so interesting. As a data guy, that would be
Speaker 1: really hard.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's why half the time I'll be like, hey,
Speaker 2: just checking, like like let me know, you know, was
Speaker 2: there anything in particular that and they're like, no, no, genuinely,
Speaker 2: you are exactly who I'm looking for. I just yeah,
Speaker 2: it's time date.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so interesting.
Speaker 2: And I just apparently I'm just You're just a timing
Speaker 2: in the world. So I mean it gets Yeah, like
Speaker 2: I said, it does take an emotional toll because obviously
Speaker 2: after six seven eight dates, you're starting to get some feels. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And so it's not just like a one or two
Speaker 2: day and you're like yep, sweet, all right, move on.
Speaker 2: It's you're starting to kind of make it a deeper connection.
Speaker 2: And certainly, I think in your thirties day six, seven eight,
Speaker 2: you're starting to kind of be like, yeah, it's not
Speaker 2: like dating year twenties.
Speaker 1: You know, it's so different. It's like whatever, man having
Speaker 1: a good time time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think in your thirties you're kind of thinking
Speaker 2: a bit more, Okay, what's how do I really feel here?
Speaker 2: You know more about yourself and who you are, you
Speaker 2: know what you're looking for. They also have the same
Speaker 2: kind of idea about who they are and who they're
Speaker 2: looking for, so you can kind of figure out compatibilities
Speaker 2: much quicker. So yeah, I've kind of just that wasn't
Speaker 2: even your question.
Speaker 1: I've just kind of but that was a really interesting
Speaker 1: That was a really interesting insight because I do think
Speaker 1: things like The Bachelor, and I don't I don't mean
Speaker 1: to keep coming back to that because I'm trying to
Speaker 1: show the side of you that isn't that, which is
Speaker 1: part of this conversation. I think it sometimes trivializes. I mean,
Speaker 1: some people have come out and had particularly in the
Speaker 1: early seasons. I've interviewed a lot of people on the
Speaker 1: show and have good friends who have gotten married have
Speaker 1: kids out of the relationship that they had on the show.
Speaker 1: I think sometimes it can trivialize the concept of day
Speaker 1: to be, like to forget that, like by date eight
Speaker 1: you have court feels. In your thirties, it is like
Speaker 1: you are trying to find a partner for life and
Speaker 1: that it is like timing is a really big thing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's cosmic, like funny talking to an astrophysicist. It
Speaker 1: is cosmic that anyone actually ends up finding the right
Speaker 1: timing with the person they're compatible with, Like that's actually
Speaker 1: the stats are actually quite like unlikely. Yeah, yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: so it's magic that it does happen.
Speaker 2: For sure. And I think that timing piece in your
Speaker 2: thirties becomes even harder because you have so much more
Speaker 2: going on and rightfully, you're starting to craft a life
Speaker 2: for yourself that you're really happy with and content with,
Speaker 2: and the partner is to enrich that further not to
Speaker 2: complete it, so to spay, and so you've got inherently
Speaker 2: a more busier lifestyle, and the timing element is sometimes
Speaker 2: even more challenging than so. Yeah, to your point that
Speaker 2: timing is already hard, and then I think in your
Speaker 2: thirties it can sometimes be a little harder again, but yeah,
Speaker 2: I think it does trivialize. You're right. The dating, I
Speaker 2: think a little bit. It's still it's still quite challenging.
Speaker 2: I think for everyone. And I think, yeah, it's it's
Speaker 2: like just everyone, like, don't.
Speaker 1: Ghost, like the common courtesy.
Speaker 2: You're mature enough, if you're old enough to date, you're
Speaker 2: old enough to give someone you know, be respectful and
Speaker 2: say thanks, but no thanks. You don't need to go
Speaker 2: into detail.
Speaker 1: You just call it.
Speaker 2: Or whatever. Like ghosting is like, you know, gutter behavior,
Speaker 2: really low and men and women do it. It's indifferent
Speaker 2: whether you're a guy, a gal, non binary, power whatever.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: Ship people ghosts. Yeah, that's the line.
Speaker 1: Mates, don't let mates ghost. Also your friends accountable. There's
Speaker 1: anything you.
Speaker 2: Take out of let's let's you know, rather than getting
Speaker 2: angry and dating, let's be respectful, let's improve. I actually
Speaker 2: saw this view again being the data nerd I am.
Speaker 2: It was a data visualization. It was one of those
Speaker 2: ones you know where it starts like a year and
Speaker 2: it's got the graph.
Speaker 1: And did you just say graph graph?
Speaker 2: Yeah, jo graph South Australia.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, you're only born there.
Speaker 2: Twelve but like plant and oh my god, you.
Speaker 1: Do it is such as Australian things. Data scientist that
Speaker 1: says graph.
Speaker 2: I also say data, which I think most will say data.
Speaker 1: Good Americans say data, Yeah all right, yeah, let's spent.
Speaker 1: Normal people say graphs.
Speaker 2: Graph, graphing, calculator graph, there's a bar graph, bar graph, yeah, barograph,
Speaker 2: and you know it's I don't know if I'm gonna
Speaker 2: be able to get this out, sorry, but you know
Speaker 2: they it's like the years ticking over and they grow
Speaker 2: and like change in order about you know, it will
Speaker 2: be something the most common name, for example, and so
Speaker 2: it's like jack and then as the things go that's
Speaker 2: small gets smaller and another one grows and then it
Speaker 2: takes Have you seen that visualization? It was one of those,
Speaker 2: but for how people met their partner from ninety twenty
Speaker 2: four to twenty twenty four, which I will send you
Speaker 2: the link as well it's really cool, but it has
Speaker 2: it changing. And obviously at the start it's like family
Speaker 2: and friends and work or something like that, and then
Speaker 2: bars kind of come in there and stuff. Anyway, it
Speaker 2: gets to twenty twenty four. By twenty twenty four, sixty
Speaker 2: percent is dating apps. Bars had dropped eight percent.
Speaker 1: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: And then I can't remember the other the other data
Speaker 2: in there, but yeah, it was it was run close exactly,
Speaker 2: but yeah, it was startingpiation. Club groups poor groups for
Speaker 2: South Australians said I'm shocked. I think people like I
Speaker 2: don't notice that. So I was saying once I need
Speaker 2: to go buy some more plants.
Speaker 1: Well plant, it's definitely is how Australian. That's really interesting.
Speaker 1: So fancy, I don't say really transport okay in a
Speaker 1: club do you say trance music?
Speaker 2: Trance? Yeah? What do you say trance?
Speaker 3: I've always said trance is let's dance to some I can.
Speaker 1: See dance because dances formal, but trance is so casual
Speaker 1: transfer doing a pole about this, it's definitely not trust.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, if I did this pole on my Instagram,
Speaker 2: I imagine the ratio of people saying trance would match
Speaker 2: my Adelaide too smart. I've got no tiny UK audience,
Speaker 2: so you know that I'm always in the insights speaking of.
Speaker 1: So one thing I did not do was continue to
Speaker 1: go through the fact that one thing I think is
Speaker 1: amazing about you and I kind of started to hammer
Speaker 1: home the point and then I don't even know where
Speaker 1: my brain went. But you went from very vulnerably and
Speaker 1: generously sharing how much your schooling was interrupted by mental
Speaker 1: health breaks, and yet you went on to do five degrees,
Speaker 1: which I've been at pains to remind everyone about, and
Speaker 1: incredibly intellectually rigorous degrees, and then have had a very
Speaker 1: successful time across various roles in the workforce at big
Speaker 1: companies like Chevron at Lassian. So again intellectual rigor which
Speaker 1: seems incompatible and having a dating life as well and
Speaker 1: a social life which seems often incompatible with a mental
Speaker 1: illness to the point that it interrupted your schooling. So
Speaker 1: one thing that was really reassuring was hearing that you
Speaker 1: can still go on to have a really high functioning
Speaker 1: career and life. What was the change from the big
Speaker 1: breaks from school to then being able to do UNI
Speaker 1: and then being able to hold down really high performing jobs. Sorry,
Speaker 1: that was such a pivot, the fact you can hold
Speaker 1: the data in your head.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I bring up in a similar vein to this.
Speaker 2: When I was in primary school, I couldn't read very well,
Speaker 2: and so I had to Yeah, I had to go
Speaker 2: into this kind of intensive assistive extracurricular reading thing that
Speaker 2: the school held called reading recovery, and so I used
Speaker 2: to go to these additional reading classes to learn to read,
Speaker 2: which is I guess I'd bring that up often with
Speaker 2: in particular students in that. Eventually I went on and
Speaker 2: wrote a book which going from someone two books, so
Speaker 2: for going from someone who was so poor at reading
Speaker 2: he needed to utilize the assistive facilities that the primary
Speaker 2: school provided for reading to being able to do that.
Speaker 2: I used that to kind of just remind, yeah, children
Speaker 2: and students in particular, that if you're finding things hard,
Speaker 2: that's okay. We all face different challenges and it doesn't
Speaker 2: define you. And it's also not something that you can
Speaker 2: still work at and get to a point where you're
Speaker 2: comfortable and feeling more confident about whatever it is you're
Speaker 2: finding challenging. And so I think it's not quite what
Speaker 2: you're saying. By in a similar fashion, I think it
Speaker 2: just helps people contextualize that the battles you face, whether
Speaker 2: that's academically or psychologically, you can overcome and still lead
Speaker 2: a very fulfilling life and achieve things that you can
Speaker 2: be proud of, whatever that happens to be. So to
Speaker 2: your question about how, was that it.
Speaker 1: Was the how or that it was just really making
Speaker 1: the point generally, I think that exactly what you said.
Speaker 1: I think silo ourselves very heavily into I'm academic, I'm creative,
Speaker 1: I'm sporty, I'm artie, and then you kind of think
Speaker 1: you're in that silo forever. And I think people really
Speaker 1: limit their dreams or the things that they will their
Speaker 1: goals because they think, well, I couldn't do business because
Speaker 1: I'm an academic person, or I couldn't do academia because
Speaker 1: I'm not smart. And if you look at your school life,
Speaker 1: you wouldn't think astrophysicist. And I think the jump. What
Speaker 1: I love to do with this show is connect jumps
Speaker 1: that you wouldn't expect and remind people listening, either for
Speaker 1: themselves or their children or friends or whatever, that there
Speaker 1: are so many people who have made jumps that you
Speaker 1: wouldn't think. A child in read and recovery, would go
Speaker 1: on to do five not just five normal degrees, but
Speaker 1: five scientific degrees and then work in like heavily academic
Speaker 1: intellectual industry. And that in itself is just really reassuring.
Speaker 1: But also from your perspective, were you ever dissuaded from
Speaker 1: thinking you could go into like did you not think
Speaker 1: of yourself as the smart guy? But now you're branded
Speaker 1: a nerd? That's so interesting to me.
Speaker 2: I'd always been very academically focused. My parents are both
Speaker 2: very analytical and scientific. My mum's got a degree in
Speaker 2: pure mathematic which is the worst thing, and my dad, yeah,
Speaker 2: maths and engineering and computer science, a double degree. And
Speaker 2: so you know, I've inherited already a little bit of
Speaker 2: natural ability, I think, or natural kind of propensity to
Speaker 2: mathematics and science. So I've got, I guess, a privilege
Speaker 2: there that not everyone has. But my parents, I think
Speaker 2: they really emphasized the importance of education, and so they
Speaker 2: weren't you know, cracking the whip or anything or like
Speaker 2: locking me in rooms and stuff, But they were always
Speaker 2: really encouraging to focus and apply, and if something was hard,
Speaker 2: they would sit down and try and work through, and
Speaker 2: they fostered a really really positive learning situation for me
Speaker 2: and my siblings, such that we always wanted to do
Speaker 2: really well academically because they had encouraged us, supported us,
Speaker 2: and said, why it's really important to just kind of
Speaker 2: setting yourself up. And I think that's still true now.
Speaker 2: I think it's probably the way they did, I think
Speaker 2: is the right way compared to the current I guess
Speaker 2: education system where the pressure placed on year twelves. This
Speaker 2: is like door die, you know, like if you if
Speaker 2: you don't do well in your exams, that's you're done,
Speaker 2: which is completely bullshed. And I try to kind of
Speaker 2: do a bit of a post each year around this
Speaker 2: time of year when the exams are in full flight,
Speaker 2: just to help try and remind students that this isn't
Speaker 2: you know. You do your best, but don't grind yourself
Speaker 2: into the ground doing it or beat yourself up. I
Speaker 2: remember I was. I threw up before most of my
Speaker 2: exams in a year to a half because I was
Speaker 2: so stressed about performing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and again throwing up in your school life.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, unfortunately and that, yeah, that pressure never came
Speaker 2: from my parents. It was putting on myself, and largely
Speaker 2: because of that external pressure from this system that you know,
Speaker 2: if you don't do well, you won't get into the
Speaker 2: degree you want, and then you know you've ruined your life.
Speaker 2: And we know that is not true at all, it's
Speaker 2: never been true, but that I think is still pervasive
Speaker 2: among students, and so I think it's really important to
Speaker 2: kind of, yeah, just help people students and kids realize that, Yeah,
Speaker 2: definitely try your best, and if there's a particular degree
Speaker 2: you really want to get into, try and do that.
Speaker 2: But if you don't, there's so many other ways to
Speaker 2: still get into that degree you want, or maybe you
Speaker 2: end up getting gaining an interest in a different thing altogether,
Speaker 2: or I mean us in particular have had such random,
Speaker 2: random career paths that you never have picked. So I
Speaker 2: think it's yeah, I think it's really important for yeah,
Speaker 2: I think I think for students to be aware of that,
Speaker 2: just to take a bit of that pressure off. And
Speaker 2: that's not to say like be lazy and don't try,
Speaker 2: but it's to the point of, yeah, apply yourself, work hard,
Speaker 2: but certainly don't beat yourself up. Whatever the results are,
Speaker 2: you will have a fulfilling life and career and it's
Speaker 2: going to be a windy part that Avyn is going
Speaker 2: to be on a windy path. You never know that.
Speaker 2: I think when you're going through year twelve, no.
Speaker 1: One hundred percent or most of the dog points. Like
Speaker 1: I was even looking at your LinkedIn, it's sort of
Speaker 1: like mechanical engineer at Chevron, which is not necessarily where
Speaker 1: you expect. Now it's like you know two times author
Speaker 1: on AI that doesn't necessarily match up with like a
Speaker 1: facilities engineer in like a mining company you know in
Speaker 1: Perth in Wa. It's like such a big I think
Speaker 1: the dots often make sense looking backwards, but going forwards
Speaker 1: you just got to put one foot in front of
Speaker 1: the other. And so another thing that I think is
Speaker 1: really difficult is when you are going forward and trying
Speaker 1: to find putting this either society or yourself putting pressure
Speaker 1: on you to find your ya or like seize your
Speaker 1: ya and find your joy. Is if you can't see
Speaker 1: that pathway that someone else has done, you don't know
Speaker 1: to aim for it because you don't know that that's
Speaker 1: a job. So can you talk to us about now
Speaker 1: having written two books, we did touch briefly on astrophysics,
Speaker 1: but I want to know, like what, how does that
Speaker 1: translate into a for you, like you wrote your first
Speaker 1: book on Doctor Matt's Guide to Space, Like how did
Speaker 1: you even learn all that stuff? And if you wanted
Speaker 1: to get someone excited about astrophysics, I'll take one thing
Speaker 1: out of the first book. What would it be?
Speaker 2: One thing out of the first book or something?
Speaker 1: You're like, you know because you didn't work in astrophysics first.
Speaker 2: No, No, it started in engineering.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's interesting to me as well because it
Speaker 1: wasn't space focused at all.
Speaker 2: No, No, And I always liked space. I did as
Speaker 2: part of the degree, my bachelor degree, I had to
Speaker 2: do physics one on one on one O two, which
Speaker 2: had a portion of the physics component was astronomy, and
Speaker 2: I loved it. But I think I had no idea
Speaker 2: what I wanted to do. I remember talking to my
Speaker 2: folks a lot, being like what do I pick? I
Speaker 2: don't know anything, and Dad suggests engineering, largely because it's
Speaker 2: such a strong degree. There's always demand for engineers and
Speaker 2: I only see that changing for the next fifty one
Speaker 2: hundred years, and so I kind of picked out. I
Speaker 2: thought an engineer was like a mechanic. I thought you
Speaker 2: were on the tools and stuff That's what I.
Speaker 1: Thought of when I saw Chevron. I was like, were
Speaker 1: you like building like I.
Speaker 2: Did, actually not building, but I did get to go
Speaker 2: out there, and like I was changing some spools on
Speaker 2: this stuff. So spools are like, you know, it's like
Speaker 2: a pipe with flanges.
Speaker 1: Each, Like what's a spool even a flange.
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh my god, imagine a pipe that kind
Speaker 2: of like flares out and so to you attached to
Speaker 2: them together that flare you kind of bolt between. So
Speaker 2: spool is the pipe with the flange dams. So I
Speaker 2: was changing spools. So I got to go out there,
Speaker 2: you know, in the hard hat, the high veers, the
Speaker 2: steel caps, got this giant talk ranch unt screwing things
Speaker 2: taking them out. Yeah, it was really fun. So a
Speaker 2: lot of the stuff I wasn't on the tools. I'd
Speaker 2: been going out and it had been doing a lot
Speaker 2: of inspections and yeah, kind of going through data sheets,
Speaker 2: always data, yeah.
Speaker 1: But dating data, data, spool data the ground.
Speaker 2: Yeah. But yeah, I got to do a little bit
Speaker 2: on the tools, which was really fun. And yeah, so
Speaker 2: how did I how did I end up in astrophysics?
Speaker 1: Make the dots connect?
Speaker 2: So yeah, exactly, let me extrapolate interpolate in this case. Sorry,
Speaker 2: I was.
Speaker 1: Sorry, guys. Extravolate and interpolate are different words. Most people
Speaker 1: don't use both in their vernacular.
Speaker 2: Continue all right, So yeah, kind of after it about
Speaker 2: three or four years of engineering, and i'd done a
Speaker 2: couple of different engineering companies, both a client and a EPCM,
Speaker 2: which is engineering procurement construction management.
Speaker 1: I think so much of your LinkedIn does not make
Speaker 1: sense anyway.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's part of writing a CV, right,
Speaker 2: make it sound really impressive, and it's like, what did
Speaker 2: you do change a light bulb? You know that?
Speaker 1: But it's actually a spool.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a spool, it's got flangers. So I'd work
Speaker 2: for a couple of engineering companies. I'd done office based,
Speaker 2: I'd done site based, so I'd try a real kind
Speaker 2: of mix of engineering, and it just wasn't gelling for me.
Speaker 2: And one of the advantages I had from working site
Speaker 2: based in oil and gas was it's well paid, and
Speaker 2: so I had a nice kind of pool of savings
Speaker 2: that I could think, all right, well, a lot of
Speaker 2: people that's the time where you know, putting money into
Speaker 2: their homes. And I was like, I don't know if
Speaker 2: I'm ready for that. I kind of don't know what
Speaker 2: I want to do. I might just you know, do
Speaker 2: a bit of travel, live abroad, you know, that whole
Speaker 2: kind of discovery yourself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, just going to take a Yeah.
Speaker 2: And I was in a luxurious position because I had
Speaker 2: worked in quite a lucrative profession and so I was
Speaker 2: trying to you know, I was traveling at beer, I
Speaker 2: was living, you know, I visited my brother in Europe.
Speaker 2: I was I lived in Buenos Aires for four months.
Speaker 2: Really yeah, yeah, it's beautiful. I loved it. And then
Speaker 2: I was like, what do I want to do? And
Speaker 2: I remember my parents saying, well, think about what what
Speaker 2: did you used to really like as a kid, And
Speaker 2: I said, I like space, Yeah, the Mars Rover and
Speaker 2: so you know, astrophysics is just space for adults. And
Speaker 2: so I applied for a mass is in astro at
Speaker 2: lund University in Sweden and it ended up getting accepted
Speaker 2: and went there and at the time, so so you
Speaker 2: like this story. So I initially got rejected for the
Speaker 2: application because they were, oh, you don't have the physics background,
Speaker 2: because I've only done physics one at one and one
Speaker 2: two as part of the engineering degree, so despite the
Speaker 2: fact they had a Bachelor of Science and applied maths
Speaker 2: a Bachelor of Engineering at MECH and they were.
Speaker 1: Like, no, it's insufficient, as in you would have needed
Speaker 1: a pure physics story.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like third year physics, okay, And so I got
Speaker 2: there resilt. I was like, ah, that sucks, and I
Speaker 2: thought I'll submit an appeal. There's an appeal process. I
Speaker 2: submitted it and I was like, oh, look, it's based
Speaker 2: on what's written on the application. I need all the requirements.
Speaker 2: I got this email months later and they go, and
Speaker 2: this is so Swedish. They go, oh, so we've looked
Speaker 2: at your application and the requirements and what was written
Speaker 2: on the requirements that was listed on the website. You
Speaker 2: did fulfill them incorrect but you did fulfill them.
Speaker 3: So we need.
Speaker 2: On the website. Yeah, and it's after living in sweet
Speaker 2: I'm like, this is very sweet to my advantage. Yes,
Speaker 2: So I ended up getting in not necessarily the requirements
Speaker 2: they whoever had put them up mustn't have, you know,
Speaker 2: quite written them correctly. And so what was written now
Speaker 2: I did fulfill and so I got accepted. And so
Speaker 2: when I did the Masters, they I remember talking to
Speaker 2: the astro coordinator and I was like, look, you know
Speaker 2: I haven't done I've only done first year physics. And
Speaker 2: they're like, all right, what we can do is get
Speaker 2: you to fill in. Because you had like four electives
Speaker 2: that you could specialize in astro units, we'll use a
Speaker 2: couple of them to basically like so you can do
Speaker 2: like yeah, because it was the physics. So I was like, oh,
Speaker 2: it was atomic and molecular physics and nuclear physics I
Speaker 2: had to do. So I jumped straight from first year
Speaker 2: to third year physics was like eight years earlier. Essentially,
Speaker 2: I was going straight into thirty year physics in the
Speaker 2: class and everything above the bachelor level at Swedish unions
Speaker 2: is done in English.
Speaker 1: There's so much bachelor in your life. I'm like, what bachelor? Oh? Sorry,
Speaker 1: funny everything above the bachelor undergraduate level undergrad.
Speaker 2: Level is taught in English. But I remember when they're like,
Speaker 2: all right, yeah, so you remember this from second year physics.
Speaker 2: And I was like, if we don't remember physics.
Speaker 1: And put it in English, remind me just second year physics.
Speaker 2: I've just I can't quite place.
Speaker 1: I've got a blanket, can quite place.
Speaker 2: Remind me again? I think actually a couple of people. Yeah,
Speaker 2: just remind us. So they were the two of the
Speaker 2: hardest units. Was basically getting dropped in third year physics
Speaker 2: and trying to, you know, fumble my way through and
Speaker 2: learning from scratch and yeah, it's but yeah, it is
Speaker 2: all in English. And it was funny because I remember
Speaker 2: talking to some of the sweet and they're like, I
Speaker 2: don't know how to say this word in Swedish. I
Speaker 2: only know this physics technical physics term in English because
Speaker 2: we learned it in England.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So it's a really interesting, yeah, kind of culture in
Speaker 2: terms of the education system because it is this in particular,
Speaker 2: lunit is a very international university, and so you've got
Speaker 2: this melting pot of cultures. And I remember the way
Speaker 2: a couple of my Swedish friends explained it. They're like, yeah,
Speaker 2: we basically we speak English and Sweden, but we then
Speaker 2: also get this secret language that no one else really knows.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Nice, so we can talk about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah you guys, Yeah, that's kind of true. Like you
Speaker 2: speak to Swedes and you wouldn't even know, like because
Speaker 2: they imitate perfect English or American accents, so you can't
Speaker 2: even tell half the time. And then they also get
Speaker 2: this secret language that nine million people know in the
Speaker 2: world else no one else. I was like, Okay, that's
Speaker 2: an interesting that I put it. So I did. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I did the masters there. It was fifty percent courts work,
Speaker 2: fift percent research, and just fell in with the research
Speaker 2: aspect of it. Just really loved it. I was modeling
Speaker 2: exoplanet atmospheres, so I was basically modeling, yeah, and I
Speaker 2: was trying to understand if there were there's these types
Speaker 2: of planets. Do you want me to get in the
Speaker 2: weeds to weak? I love this. So there's these types
Speaker 2: of planets, exoplanets called hot Jupiter's good name, and they're
Speaker 2: basically giant gas planets like Jupiter, but they're they're hot,
Speaker 2: and they're hot because they are so close to the
Speaker 2: star we're talking instead of orbiting. You know, the Earth
Speaker 2: takes three sixty five days, Jupiter's like eleven years or
Speaker 2: something like that. They take three days. Whoa, so three
Speaker 2: days to all but they're that close, which means they're
Speaker 2: super hot several thousand degrees. And what that does is
Speaker 2: it puffs up the atmosphere because it's so hot and energetic,
Speaker 2: and the starlight can shine through the atmosphere, and we
Speaker 2: can observe that starlight and what's interacting with the atmosphere.
Speaker 2: We can understand kind of things about the chemical composition
Speaker 2: of the atmosphere, temperature of the atmosphere.
Speaker 1: How excited, He's got a totally different look on your face.
Speaker 2: Excited.
Speaker 1: This is the definition of yay when someone's face does that.
Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, So this really really cool project. I had
Speaker 2: this really cool research element, had this computational element modeling
Speaker 2: these atmospheres, and just really liked it. And that's what
Speaker 2: sent me down the academic route for for the next
Speaker 2: four years going into research to my PhD and had applied.
Speaker 2: I had a couple of PhD interviews in Europe. I
Speaker 2: had one in Munich, one in Amstam, and one in Leiden,
Speaker 2: which is a smaller international UNI about forty minute train
Speaker 2: from Amsterdam. Did really strongly in interviews, but I was
Speaker 2: the second choice for all three and only had one spot.
Speaker 2: And all of them came back and they said you
Speaker 2: were amazing. There was just some slightly more aligned. If
Speaker 2: they turn it down though, you're you're in none to town.
Speaker 2: So I was like, Okay, that sucks. So then I
Speaker 2: started looking Australian unis and for a few in New
Speaker 2: South Wales and Melbourne, and I ended up the project
Speaker 2: at Swinburn just I really liked it. It was searching
Speaker 2: for Earth two point zero basically planets like Earth Solar
Speaker 2: system analogus cool and again largely it was a computational
Speaker 2: and modeling project, which is you've kind of got two
Speaker 2: streams in astrophysics. You've got the observational astronomers who they're
Speaker 2: using the telescopes to get data and then trying to
Speaker 2: identify what they're.
Speaker 1: Looking at, looking and discovering it.
Speaker 2: And then you've got the kind of the theory and
Speaker 2: computational astrophysicists, and so they're the ones who are kind
Speaker 2: of they're coming up with theoretical predictions in my case,
Speaker 2: modeling and computationally predicting things, and then that kind of
Speaker 2: gets fed to the observational astronomers and then they'll be
Speaker 2: looking to say, okay, this is what's being predicted. Can
Speaker 2: we find something that kind of can verify this or not?
Speaker 2: And so you've got this kind of synergy between those
Speaker 2: two streams of astrophysicists that is so cool.
Speaker 1: I mean, like the average lay person probably has not
Speaker 1: ever heard that description before of like what astrophysicists are
Speaker 1: actually doing, and then like how that could impact our
Speaker 1: daily life, ie, we run out of space on Earth,
Speaker 1: there may be is Earth two point zero, like someone
Speaker 1: out there. And part of CZA that I get so
Speaker 1: excited about is showing people that, Like one day, you're
Speaker 1: like sitting in the shower and you're probably thinking, who
Speaker 1: is the person who's going to find the other planet
Speaker 1: that we're going to? You know, like that there are
Speaker 1: people whose job is to answer the equations and make
Speaker 1: the theories that figure out where we could live like
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. I don't think you think about
Speaker 1: that on a day to day basis, but there's some
Speaker 1: kid who might be listening who goes, I'm going to
Speaker 1: be the person who answered that question. But I do
Speaker 1: think a lot of people do do PhDs on extremely
Speaker 1: specific theoretical questions and then don't really know what to
Speaker 1: do with it afterwards in the workforce. And you have
Speaker 1: not only then gone on to like write a book
Speaker 1: and educate people about space, but then have also requalified
Speaker 1: in like something completely different back on Earth.
Speaker 2: AI.
Speaker 1: So you've done a PhD in astrophysics you've moved away
Speaker 1: from like the nuts and bolts and spools and flannels
Speaker 1: of engineering and then written this book on space are
Speaker 1: you working? Like, do you consider that as work as
Speaker 1: an astrophysicist? And then why AI and going back to
Speaker 1: do an entire master's on that and then a whole
Speaker 1: new book.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, all right, this is another big question.
Speaker 1: We haven't got it.
Speaker 2: They're all kind of multi.
Speaker 1: Part yeah, because I'm like, oh my god, how do
Speaker 1: I get all it? Like?
Speaker 2: And I still like Jesus Okay, So do I consider
Speaker 2: it's I think in the purest sense, a scientist is
Speaker 2: someone who's publishing with some level of frequency. You're writing papers,
Speaker 2: you're writing papers, you're publishing in scientific journals. So during
Speaker 2: my PhD, I was working as an astrophysicist. I was
Speaker 2: publishing papers. I think by the end of my degree,
Speaker 2: I think there was a bit of an overhang. I
Speaker 2: had some papers in the work. So the last paper
Speaker 2: I published was in twenty twenty and it wasn't a
Speaker 2: first author. I was like fourth or fifth author or
Speaker 2: something like that. So I ended up I think over
Speaker 2: the whole court, I had about eight papers for first author.
Speaker 2: That's quite Yeah, that's that's good. Typically for a PhD,
Speaker 2: you need to have at least one first author. The
Speaker 2: idea of PhD is you're adding new ideas to the
Speaker 2: body of knowledge, and a paper's sort of evidence of that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you typically need at least one, but you know, three
Speaker 2: or four is really great result. I was thrilled to
Speaker 2: get four out of the door for that. So in
Speaker 2: the purest sense, I'm not actively working as an astrophysicist
Speaker 2: because I'm not actively researching and I'm not actively publishing. Okay,
Speaker 2: I would say in the same way, though, I am
Speaker 2: an astrophysicist in the same art. So I'm an engineer.
Speaker 2: I've got the qualification, I've worked in the field. I
Speaker 2: just would say I'm not actively working as an engineer
Speaker 2: an astrophysicist.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, that was my question, Like what is working
Speaker 1: as an astrophysicist? Is it a research role or are
Speaker 1: you working for NASA? Like I think people don't actually
Speaker 1: understand what you're doing, and I mean I imagine.
Speaker 2: It the same as you you're still a lawyer.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm just lawyer. In Yeah, you're not actively.
Speaker 2: Working and so I think, yeah, if if you've got
Speaker 2: the credentials and you've worked in that space, and I
Speaker 2: think you just lose that because you're no longer practicing. Yeah, totally,
Speaker 2: it's just you're not practicing. So I think that's one definition,
Speaker 2: probably the one I use or lean on the most
Speaker 2: in terms of the book. So I think you've got
Speaker 2: a few And I'm going to answer this because it
Speaker 2: kind of ties in with what you're saying. Maybe people
Speaker 2: aren't sure where you can go with a with a PhD.
Speaker 2: You've got a few options, and there's three options and
Speaker 2: I did two of them. One is going down the
Speaker 2: full academic route, just becoming doing a post university continuing
Speaker 2: down the research path. That's really really great. I love
Speaker 2: the research. If I didn't end up doing what I
Speaker 2: did in terms of, you know, moving into I guess
Speaker 2: the public space a bit more and become a more
Speaker 2: active science communicator, I think I probably would have pursued
Speaker 2: at least a few more years of research going down
Speaker 2: the post dot path because it is really research is
Speaker 2: really fun because you're doing something you're really excited about. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I love it.
Speaker 1: I love it.
Speaker 2: Research is fun. And I think you definitely don't even
Speaker 2: know that is a career path when you're selecting your
Speaker 2: degrees or when you're finishing high school, you don't even
Speaker 2: know that's a thing you can do. So that's one
Speaker 2: of the passing it down. The second one is going
Speaker 2: into industry, which is what I did first. At the time,
Speaker 2: data science was still I wouldn't say that was new,
Speaker 2: but it was becoming more trendy and more common. The
Speaker 2: degrees in data science were still quite new, so most firms,
Speaker 2: data science consultancies or just places looking for data scientists.
Speaker 2: We're looking for typically PhDs, like highly analytical PhDs that
Speaker 2: they could then fill the gaps and unskill them as
Speaker 2: a data scientist because the Bachelor of Data Science or
Speaker 2: the Masters of Data Sciences weren't quite a mature degree yet.
Speaker 2: That were still it was still gaining a bit of momentum.
Speaker 2: So that was good for me because it meant, you know,
Speaker 2: if I had have been competing with this cohort of
Speaker 2: new data scientists coming out, I probably would have had
Speaker 2: a real hard time getting a data science position. Fortunately
Speaker 2: for me, timing wise, they were still quite new, so
Speaker 2: they're like, yeah, we'll take the PhD, you know, the nerd.
Speaker 1: The nerdy will take the nerd.
Speaker 2: Who knows how to program and it's worked, you know,
Speaker 2: with spools and flangs. Yeah, so that's the other one industry.
Speaker 2: The third one is and that's kind of where I've
Speaker 2: ended up now, which is going into science communication. And
Speaker 2: so that's what I do now very actively through social
Speaker 2: media but also through my books speaking all of that
Speaker 2: fun stuff. And I love that and a lot of
Speaker 2: my friends also have science communicators and they love it
Speaker 2: as well. And it's definitely a different skill set, and
Speaker 2: it's one like any skill or any muscle, you need
Speaker 2: to train it. And I'm sure it's the same as
Speaker 2: a MC and keynote speaker that you are. It's a
Speaker 2: muscle that you've had to train over time. It's not
Speaker 2: something you just suddenly can do. And I think a
Speaker 2: lot of people see someone like yourself is really polished
Speaker 2: at doing that, and they're like, oh, she's just really talented,
Speaker 2: and it's like she's talented, but there's thousands of hours
Speaker 2: high as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah look at the graph, Yeah, look at the graph.
Speaker 2: Right, she didn't just wake up and suddenly became this
Speaker 2: dominant kenot speaker an MC. Right, it's like anything, and
Speaker 2: science communication is the same. To become quite effective at it,
Speaker 2: you need to yeah, sing hundreds thousands of ours into it.
Speaker 2: And I was doing that before The Bachelor. The Bachelor,
Speaker 2: certainly it was an accelerant, and it's a bit of
Speaker 2: the peanut butter as well for the dog medicine. But
Speaker 2: I was before that. I was already starting to do
Speaker 2: more of it. I was doing some radio interviews here
Speaker 2: and there. I've done some public lectures. I've done a
Speaker 2: fringe show.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So, and I did some fringe shows after Bachelor as well,
Speaker 2: but I'd done one before. So I was starting to
Speaker 2: push into the science communication space and this accelerated tremendously.
Speaker 1: Okay, that makes more sense now because in the dots
Speaker 1: connecting thing, I was like, why be so passionate about astrophysics,
Speaker 1: write a book about space, but then go back and
Speaker 1: do another master's in AI to then have data scientists roles,
Speaker 1: which seemed like this like unrelated pivot. But now I
Speaker 1: can kind of see how connecting Yes, Yeah, like, oh,
Speaker 1: it's like a transferable skill. That's like the logical logical jump.
Speaker 1: Even though you've come like it's not necessarily space focused.
Speaker 1: Now it's like and talking about science communication doing it
Speaker 1: for children as well. So your latest book is a
Speaker 1: children's book, which sounds easier, but I actually think distilling
Speaker 1: complicated things into child friendly explanations is harder.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was actually just before we churned it out,
Speaker 2: I thought, because it'd be remiss with me. Not so
Speaker 2: at least because the biggest scandal I had was that
Speaker 2: I worked at NAB. I don't know if you recall
Speaker 2: this story. So I've never worked at NAB. I worked
Speaker 2: at a data science consultancy called Quantium, and they have
Speaker 2: a number of different departments. They've got like a health department,
Speaker 2: They've got like an FMCG so fast moving consumer goods
Speaker 2: were worse goals all that, and they had a banking
Speaker 2: and finance department which I was in at. One of
Speaker 2: their clients was NAB. And so as a consultant, you
Speaker 2: often will they'll have to create a NAB account for
Speaker 2: you because you need to access their systems. Oh my god,
Speaker 2: someone I don't even know how it. I don't know
Speaker 2: if Science saw that I had a NAB email and
Speaker 2: they're like, oh, he's a banker. What And I remember
Speaker 2: this thing coming up and I got an email from
Speaker 2: someone at NAB and they're like, hey, someone, a media
Speaker 2: person just called us and asked if you worked at
Speaker 2: NAB and I'm like, well, I mean I work, you know,
Speaker 2: I don't worry. What what do you mean? I'm like,
Speaker 2: what do you want us to say? I'm like, well,
Speaker 2: I don't care. Like I was like, this is just
Speaker 2: a weird question. Are you a banker? Well? No, Anyway,
Speaker 2: it became this big thing that like, oh, he's not
Speaker 2: an astrophysically, he's a banker. And I was like, oh, well,
Speaker 2: I mean as far as scandals go, this is pretty tame,
Speaker 2: but also like my biggest I'm not until apparently I
Speaker 2: didn't know this because I'm like working at the Quantum
Speaker 2: office and I had, you know, some of the more
Speaker 2: senior guys would have to go to the NAB building
Speaker 2: regularly to talk to some of the senior execs there,
Speaker 2: and I remember one of them came in and they
Speaker 2: said that there's like several paps waiting there. I'm parently
Speaker 2: hoping they could get a far off me. Yeah, trying
Speaker 2: to They I guess wanted a photo me walking into
Speaker 2: the NAB building or something.
Speaker 1: Interest.
Speaker 2: I was like, all right, this is the weird and
Speaker 2: I was like, what is going on? And then I
Speaker 2: had people like, oh, you work at NAB doing and
Speaker 2: I'm like, I've never worked at a bank in my life,
Speaker 2: so it's such a big thing. I'm modeling. I'm doing
Speaker 2: like predictive models on transaction data to try and build
Speaker 2: out like approval processes for certain things. And it was
Speaker 2: just anyway, it was really amusing to me because I
Speaker 2: was like, this is the weirdest scandal.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't believe this is even a story.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I was like whatever, Anyway, I thought that
Speaker 2: would be an amusing anecdote because it was something at
Speaker 2: the time that was just like whole Matt, He's just
Speaker 2: deceived everyone, and I'm like, well, I haven't. And also
Speaker 2: and also why.
Speaker 1: Would being a banker be like such a secret a
Speaker 1: secret bag.
Speaker 2: It's like why would that be seen? It's like is
Speaker 2: that a bad thing?
Speaker 1: I mean in some schools of.
Speaker 2: Thought anyway, So I was quite using. Anyway, What was
Speaker 2: your actual.
Speaker 1: Question was this is problem the children? So why do
Speaker 1: you go from I am talking about space in these
Speaker 1: huge like science education black holes like big questions to
Speaker 1: is my phone reading my mind? Yes? So for children?
Speaker 2: Yes, big pivot, big pivot. So data science is essentially
Speaker 2: applied artificial intelligence. So you're going through data and you're
Speaker 2: using typically machine learning algorithms, which are the lifeblood of
Speaker 2: artificial intelligence. Everything AI is powered by machine learning algorithms,
Speaker 2: and you're applying them to different problems, usually with a
Speaker 2: ton of data to off. And it can be to
Speaker 2: make decisioning decisions or to inform decisions. Sometimes it can
Speaker 2: be predictive modeling to try and predict certain things about
Speaker 2: what's happening within certain spaces. Sometimes it can be really clever. Idea,
Speaker 2: I was working on an algorithm that was trying to
Speaker 2: discern how people were using a piece of software, what
Speaker 2: they were actually doing with it, based on the actions
Speaker 2: and behaviors they were doing, what is their use case?
Speaker 2: So that was really cool. So data science is applied AI.
Speaker 2: So I was already doing AI. But the more exotic
Speaker 2: and exciting algorithms aren't really commonplace in enterprise. They're more
Speaker 2: in research and big tech companies like your facebooks and
Speaker 2: your Googles and stuff like that. And I really wanted
Speaker 2: to learn more about the exotic algorithms.
Speaker 1: Of course you did, so you were like, fuck it,
Speaker 1: I'll do a fifth degree.
Speaker 2: So I did. Yeah, So I went back and did
Speaker 2: the AI degree and that was fantastic. Got to do
Speaker 2: all the really cool stuff the neural networks, which are
Speaker 2: the things they power a lot of, like image recognition
Speaker 2: and computer vision generative or transformers, which are the.
Speaker 1: Stop laughing, the transformers. I'm just translating for everyone in
Speaker 1: other states of Australia.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the transformers which power that's what the T and
Speaker 2: GBT stands for, is based on neural networks. So I
Speaker 2: got to do some of them. Reinforcement learning, which is
Speaker 2: again a training mechanism. If you remember Alpha Go. Alpha
Speaker 2: Go was a AI they built to play the game Go,
Speaker 2: which is I don't even know. I feel like it's
Speaker 2: a Chinese game originally, and it's like something like you're
Speaker 2: putting balls down and you like jump them, and I
Speaker 2: can't remember how it works. It's a sort of like
Speaker 2: chess kind of stuff. But they build an algorithm called
Speaker 2: Alpha Go and they basically trained it using reinforcement learning,
Speaker 2: and so they didn't teach it the rules of it.
Speaker 2: They just had an algorithm that sort of rewarded what
Speaker 2: it did based on like a few different kind of mechanisms,
Speaker 2: and then got it to learn from existing games, but
Speaker 2: also just playing like a billion games, and based on
Speaker 2: what it did, it kind of got rewards to incentivize
Speaker 2: it to do certain things. And so they trained this
Speaker 2: algorithm from scratch without teaching it the game. It learnt
Speaker 2: it itself, and it ended up and it now beats
Speaker 2: humans the time. It just dominates. So that was a
Speaker 2: really cool application because I think with sort of the
Speaker 2: chess algorithms, they were trained on existing chess games, so
Speaker 2: it was like, you know, he's a million games of
Speaker 2: chess to try and teach it, whereas Alpha go was
Speaker 2: we're not going to tell you the games, which is
Speaker 2: going to get you to play it a trillion figure now,
Speaker 2: and we're going to reward you when you do good
Speaker 2: stuff and punish you when you do bad stuff. And
Speaker 2: it just figured out and it started doing strategies that
Speaker 2: humans hadn't done before because it could because that's the
Speaker 2: humans over all the Alpha games ever might have played.
Speaker 2: You know, I don't know a billion games. You know,
Speaker 2: they made this algorithm play ten billion. Of course, if
Speaker 2: you played ten times and many games might come up
Speaker 2: with a strategy that you wouldn't have come up with
Speaker 2: in the first billion games. So I had these strategies
Speaker 2: that developed. They were like, no humans figured out that
Speaker 2: strategy yet, and so it was just a really cool
Speaker 2: demonstration of reinforcement learning. So that's why I went back
Speaker 2: to do the Masters, because I liked doing applied AI
Speaker 2: in industry, but I wanted to know more about the
Speaker 2: really exotic, powerful, interesting algorithms that aren't commonplace in industry yet. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so that was the motivation. In terms of the book. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I agree with you. Writing for a younger age group
Speaker 2: is more challenging. You're limited by number of words as well.
Speaker 2: I think the upper limit at the time when I
Speaker 2: first started that children's book, I think it was only
Speaker 2: like twelve thousand words.
Speaker 1: Oh my god to even discuss AI at all.
Speaker 2: But I went well over that. I think I landed
Speaker 2: on about seventeen or eighteen thousand.
Speaker 1: I remember episodes. Amount of words, yeah.
Speaker 2: And I remember telling the past. Look, I can trim
Speaker 2: it down, but I think I'm going to and I
Speaker 2: tried done a really hard acts cunt. I'm like, this
Speaker 2: one's like fourteen thousand, and I'm like it's missing, it's
Speaker 2: losing a lot of stuff, and they're like, nah, if
Speaker 2: you reckon the seventeen k is the one. Let's do that.
Speaker 2: Then they've been a wonderful publisher, Alan and ant One,
Speaker 2: And yeah, it was really challenging keeping the word limit
Speaker 2: down and then also to your point, using easily accessible
Speaker 2: words and explaining complex concepts and often abstract concepts in
Speaker 2: a way that's engaging and accessible for a younger age group,
Speaker 2: but also not so childlike that adults won't enjoy it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: because I'd still wanted it's targeted for eight to twelve
Speaker 2: year olds, but I wanted people, you know, high schoolers
Speaker 2: or adults to also be able to pick it up
Speaker 2: and enjoy reading it.
Speaker 1: And my dad loves it, and he's's so sweet and.
Speaker 2: He used to work as a CEO in WA and
Speaker 2: he obviously through his work there met a lot of
Speaker 2: other C suite execs and he buys loads of my
Speaker 2: book and gives them copies. Say, you know this is
Speaker 2: it's a short book because you can it's a target
Speaker 2: a young age. You can build out a couple of hours.
Speaker 2: I have some fundamental understanding artificial intelligence.
Speaker 1: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: So it was a challenge, but I really loved it
Speaker 2: because it's ended up as a book that children can enjoy,
Speaker 2: but the amount of adults and in particular parents who
Speaker 2: have told me that they've really enjoyed it and found
Speaker 2: it really handy because yeah, they can read it quickly
Speaker 2: and now they feel more empowered around AI. I'm really
Speaker 2: happy with it.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad with that we had a chance to
Speaker 1: talk more about it, because I feel like we didn't
Speaker 1: have time last time, and it is like I think.
Speaker 1: One of the things I love on this show is
Speaker 1: how random people's careers can end up being, and how
Speaker 1: you can we're all multi passionate. Not many people wake
Speaker 1: up and go, I want to be a doctor. I'm
Speaker 1: going to just do medicine. Even doctors are like, which
Speaker 1: kind of medicine? What kind of direction do you want
Speaker 1: to go? Do you want to go private practice hospitals?
Speaker 1: Like what part of the body? I think we yeah, again,
Speaker 1: go back to that like siloing of the simplicity of categorization,
Speaker 1: but and think our scientist has to look like this.
Speaker 1: But you've done books, You've done adult books, children's books,
Speaker 1: space AI And then on top of that, like to
Speaker 1: full circle back to the beginning. The question about dating
Speaker 1: post quitting alcohol and whether that was easy or hard
Speaker 1: or socializing post alcohol solved the problem of the non
Speaker 1: OLC landscape being like pretty poor. When we both first
Speaker 1: stopped drinking alcohol, you decided, look, I've done five degrees,
Speaker 1: I've got two books, I understand a business. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: you are now a founder and ceosh.
Speaker 2: I still feel like a wanker putting founder.
Speaker 1: In my type, but like talk about multi passionate and
Speaker 1: like multifaceted careers that all have they all it's like
Speaker 1: cohesive in its own weird way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, thank you. So, yeah, it was I stopped
Speaker 2: drinking at start at twenty twenty, which, yeah, obviously we
Speaker 2: met after that period, so we were both obviously teattlers,
Speaker 2: and yeah, we touched on it before we started recording this,
Speaker 2: But obviously during the era when you stopp drink it
Speaker 2: was even harder twenty like mid twenty tens is zero. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Beryl was your option.
Speaker 1: I think I was just like lemonon bitters, lemon age.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was it. Sparkling Water twenty twenty. It was
Speaker 2: getting better. I think there was starting to have some more.
Speaker 2: I think Kalan zero and Heineken zero was starting to
Speaker 2: ramp up in quantity, and you started seeing some of
Speaker 2: the craft beers were coming through. So your heaps normal
Speaker 2: you're sober, not things like that. So they suddenly was
Speaker 2: some some more options and socializing and dating post giving
Speaker 2: up alcohol. Socializing was very hard initially.
Speaker 1: It's such a crutch.
Speaker 2: For such a crutch, you go through this period of
Speaker 2: without alcohol, Am I boring?
Speaker 1: What is my personality? It's fun?
Speaker 2: So yeah, exactly, And you've got this idea that yeah
Speaker 2: you've if you've used it so frequently when you're socializing,
Speaker 2: you're how people actually want to talk to me if
Speaker 2: I'm not not drinking. I mean, it doesn't take you
Speaker 2: long to realize, well, yeah, actually they're talking to you,
Speaker 2: They're not like talking to the alcohol.
Speaker 1: Well sometimes, but that's fine.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I love you mate, Yes, but yeah, I
Speaker 2: think initially, and I imagine it was probably similar for yourself.
Speaker 2: You kind of for the first six months, I reckon
Speaker 2: I needed an excuse. I need I'm doing fair Fast
Speaker 2: and doing drudge. Youly, oh really enjoyed drudge a life.
Speaker 2: I'm doing dry August, so training for something, just having
Speaker 2: an excuse. And I tell people all the time that
Speaker 2: you know, that's initially, that's that's that's fine if that's
Speaker 2: what you need initially, because it is really hard when
Speaker 2: you first stop drinking to have the commonness to tell
Speaker 2: people you're not drinking. And so initially, if you need
Speaker 2: to just roll out an excuse, then then do that
Speaker 2: until you feel comfortable and confident in saying it. I
Speaker 2: also joke a lot. It's the only substance you need
Speaker 2: to justify why you're not doing it. Isn't so interesting
Speaker 2: no one else you know, you don't rock up to
Speaker 2: a party and nine's going, oh, not doing heroin? To
Speaker 2: do you have to You've got to get up and
Speaker 2: tomorrow right, yeah, no ketamine?
Speaker 1: Oh you're driving okay, fair, fair fad.
Speaker 3: Otherwise like yeah, it's like otherwise people are like, they're like,
Speaker 3: why are you not drinking this poison? What is it?
Speaker 2: Yeah, you could to get up here tomorrow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not heroin day to day maybe later. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So it's this bizarre substance that for some reason you
Speaker 2: need to justify while you're not doing it. And so yeah,
Speaker 2: initially it took me a while to get there. Eventually
Speaker 2: I got to the place where I was very confident
Speaker 2: and also much more comfortable about my own mental illness
Speaker 2: as well, so I could tell people, yeah, I don't drink,
Speaker 2: and if they pride. I could say I don't drink
Speaker 2: because I have mental illness and it shouldn't take a
Speaker 2: sign as to you know, add a depressant to depression
Speaker 2: and go.
Speaker 1: No, that graph is is. Yeah, it's I'm really laboring
Speaker 1: the graft and get off your case. Really really just
Speaker 1: laying it on you. I'm sorry, it's just too funny.
Speaker 2: Have a part.
Speaker 1: Why is it not called park?
Speaker 2: Don't it?
Speaker 1: Why is it not called park?
Speaker 2: The rest of this episode?
Speaker 1: Please do consistent.
Speaker 2: But yeah, so I'm very comfortable being able to say, look,
Speaker 2: I've got mental illness, and it just ruins that. Even further,
Speaker 2: it shouldn't have taken me that long to figure out
Speaker 2: how bad this was to my existing mental illness illnesses.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it took me a while initially to get
Speaker 2: to that place of being comfortable saying that socializing. Now
Speaker 2: it's it's easy, especially because I guess I've been quite
Speaker 2: public about the fact I don't drink and I've got
Speaker 2: mental illness. It's you know, everyone kind of already is
Speaker 2: aware of that. I have been at times where people
Speaker 2: buy like around the kill, and I go, I don't drink.
Speaker 2: I just saw you're drinking a beer I'm like, it's
Speaker 2: a calm zero. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, get with the program. It's twenty twenty four.
Speaker 2: They think like I'm trying to get out of a shot.
Speaker 2: I'm like, mate, I have done a shot for you know, five.
Speaker 1: Years, maybe when I was having mob child. When I
Speaker 1: was pregnant, people would you med a side I I'm like, okay,
Speaker 1: it's pre juice, calm down.
Speaker 2: I had a friend who when she was pregnant, I
Speaker 2: would rock up to a picnic and I'm but I've
Speaker 2: got some heidaken zeros if you want one. This is
Speaker 2: before parsh obviously, it's past now obviously, but that some
Speaker 2: heindn zeros goes No, I can't because like people just look,
Speaker 2: they can't see that it's a zero. Can You're just
Speaker 2: like smashing a bu well pregnant And I was like okay, yeah,
Speaker 2: fair enough.
Speaker 1: I mean, well if you want to, they're there to
Speaker 1: the party, I understand.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's funny. There's that kind of extra level
Speaker 2: or extra thing that women have to face when not
Speaker 2: drinking as well. But yeah, so and and dating again,
Speaker 2: the same thing I had with am I interesting. I
Speaker 2: was like, what if I rock up and it's like, gee,
Speaker 2: this guy's a dud.
Speaker 1: This yes, boring on the flipping. So, oh my god.
Speaker 1: He ordered a green tea with his spaghetti.
Speaker 2: Yeah, man, this guy he was all right. And then
Speaker 2: he just like had a pub whole spaghetti and the
Speaker 2: green tea. He poured the green tea in the spaghetti
Speaker 2: like he.
Speaker 1: Just got really weird, freaking psycho.
Speaker 2: I didn't have a date. One's actually with a woman
Speaker 2: who she picked the venue. It was like a rooftop bar.
Speaker 2: We got there. I was like, I'm going to grab
Speaker 2: a beer and you can I get you a drink,
Speaker 2: which is back when I was still drinking. He goes, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: you're just a glass of warm water like a tea
Speaker 2: and just no, just warm water.
Speaker 1: Which is actually do you know better for your inside?
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I do not know that. So I went
Speaker 2: to the bar and I was like, oh, yeah, just
Speaker 2: a pint of can't remember. And I go, look, this
Speaker 2: is gonna be a bit of an odd order. But
Speaker 2: and he goes, now I've heard them all before. I go, oh,
Speaker 2: just a glass of warm water. He goes. He goes like,
Speaker 2: like tap water. I think, so, I don't know.
Speaker 1: So and he never went back to the team again.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a nice date, but yeah, it was
Speaker 2: just that was a yeah, so that was not green
Speaker 2: tea but close spaghetty. But yeah, I think initially the
Speaker 2: same thing the dates, and especially I think it's very
Speaker 2: commonplace for people you're a bit nervous for a day,
Speaker 2: maybe you have a settler. Yeah, and so not having
Speaker 2: that as well, now I'm so comfortable with who I
Speaker 2: am and with might not drink that I rock up
Speaker 2: and it's completely fine, and it's you know, you remember,
Speaker 2: and everyone I know who stops drinking goes through a
Speaker 2: similar phase and then they're like, oh yeah, no, you
Speaker 2: kind of rediscover yourself a bit in that. Oh yeah
Speaker 2: that the alcohol wasn't my personality, Like my personality was
Speaker 2: my personality? Yeah yeah, yeah, kind of had started relying
Speaker 2: on this thing to draw that out, where ITAs reality,
Speaker 2: you can draw it out whenever you like.
Speaker 1: That's so true.
Speaker 2: You just kind of forget a little bit if you've,
Speaker 2: if you've relied on alcohol a bit for it. So yeah,
Speaker 2: dating now is fine. I get some really sweet things
Speaker 2: that whether you know, we'll be able to at a
Speaker 2: bar and the lady will ask is okay if I
Speaker 2: have a dream? Yeah, of course, I'm like, it's like,
Speaker 2: I'm not a gremlin, la. I mean, but it's sweet
Speaker 2: because that is a thing for some people where it
Speaker 2: can be a triggering thing. Typically they will avoid a
Speaker 2: bar altogether. So by virtue of the fact that I'm
Speaker 2: organizing dates at bars, they can feel relaxed, you know.
Speaker 1: But it's a really sweet thing to.
Speaker 2: Ask, because depending on someone's relationship, that can be just
Speaker 2: by having a drink in front of someone can be
Speaker 2: really challenging. So I'm lucky that that's not the case
Speaker 2: for me. So yeah, I always say, you know, I
Speaker 2: don't drink, but if you want to go for it,
Speaker 2: there's yeah, just drink whatever you want. Like, I literally
Speaker 2: don't care. I love they've got stunkered on the day. Yeah,
Speaker 2: we're probably not compatible.
Speaker 1: Social calendar activity, isn't it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So yeah, I was getting up tomorrow morning for.
Speaker 1: A run, but they're on the way then.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think I think, you know, no one's
Speaker 2: doing that really, So sorry. As dating goes, I'm so
Speaker 2: comfortable with myself and yeah, with whoever I want to
Speaker 2: date with, I'm like, yeah, if you want to drink, drink.
Speaker 2: If you don't want to drink, don't drink like whatever
Speaker 2: you feel comfortable doing.
Speaker 1: She's your an adventure.
Speaker 2: Choose your own adventure.
Speaker 1: Well, I love that your adventure that you choose is
Speaker 1: always like one hundred and fifty million out of ten.
Speaker 1: Like I'm going to quit drinking, so I'm going to
Speaker 1: start a business. And it's like I'm going to be
Speaker 1: interested in AI. I'm going to do another masters. It's
Speaker 1: like you just don't do anything like in a chill,
Speaker 1: lazy way. You're just like, I'm going to take it
Speaker 1: like to the max that I can. It's a very
Speaker 1: high achiever trade, which I like is like full dedication.
Speaker 1: So you've started your own alcoholic this is very pot kettle.
Speaker 2: Well make my own brand though, but you didn't, Well,
Speaker 2: hang on, but your green tea brand. Yeah, you're the one.
Speaker 2: This is true. You know it was he called me like, mate,
Speaker 2: she just got the pastor and green tea out and
Speaker 2: started the business.
Speaker 1: That's so true. Oh my god, take a long, hard
Speaker 1: look in the mirror.
Speaker 2: So yeah, he started started pash with a mate or
Speaker 2: a couple of mates and the friend that I did
Speaker 2: it with. We'd bounced around startup ideas for years. I
Speaker 2: had one that I actually got to an m v
Speaker 2: P minimum viable product. For those who aren't familiar with
Speaker 2: the term, it was an app called Socrates Way. It
Speaker 2: was built the website and the web app and the
Speaker 2: iPhone app, and it was basically it was like a
Speaker 2: marketplace for high school tutors. So your your parent, your
Speaker 2: child needs help for maths. You pull up this app,
Speaker 2: you type in your postcode, Maths comes up with a
Speaker 2: bunch of people. There's a review system, there's a booking system,
Speaker 2: all of that. Jazz got it to an MVP stage
Speaker 2: and then got really busy with my PhD, dropped it
Speaker 2: and never picked it up again. So we'd bounced around that,
Speaker 2: We bounced around a ton over the same person. And
Speaker 2: then eventually he it was about two years, I think,
Speaker 2: all a year and a half into my sobriety that
Speaker 2: he goes, would you, you know, would your fancy doing
Speaker 2: a bit of a we try a non olk startup.
Speaker 2: And I was like, well, yeah, you know, I've wanted
Speaker 2: to try a start up for a long time, and
Speaker 2: this is something that I'm authentically involved in and really
Speaker 2: passionate about. And so away we went and built it
Speaker 2: for probably twelve or eighteen months till we finally got
Speaker 2: to launch, and then now we've been trading for kind
Speaker 2: of coming up eighteen months at the end of the job.
Speaker 2: So it's yeah, it's been a it's been a really
Speaker 2: steep learning curve and having learning curve, and it's it's
Speaker 2: been really it was. It was a hard decision when
Speaker 2: I finally quit the nine to five, and one of
Speaker 2: the things I think that helped me make the decision was,
Speaker 2: even if this doesn't work out, the skills and professional
Speaker 2: development I'll have over the period of running a business
Speaker 2: will probably outweigh the professional development from just doing data
Speaker 2: science for the same period of time. I can kind
Speaker 2: of always jump back into data science the skill set
Speaker 2: that I've developed from running a business and not having
Speaker 2: kind of really you know, been involved in the bus.
Speaker 2: I didn't do economics or commerce at UNI. I was
Speaker 2: missing a lot of that skill set and so this
Speaker 2: was a way for me to kind of fill those gaps.
Speaker 1: I love you're trying to just be the ultimate human
Speaker 1: with skills in like every single.
Speaker 2: Because I want to, like, you know, they're like it's
Speaker 2: like one are your Degrees're like, well, I'm a doctor,
Speaker 2: like a physician doctor, but then also a PhD. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I also did an expedition in Antarctica for eight eight
Speaker 2: months and oh yeah what Else're like, Oh, I got
Speaker 2: ten thousand hours flying a chop and I'm like, yeah, okay,
Speaker 2: so yeah, cheers. I made a non aarcoholic beer, which
Speaker 2: is pretty good.
Speaker 1: Well, that's pretty great.
Speaker 2: It's just unfortunately it's not like in the application process
Speaker 2: to like, how many beverages have you invented?
Speaker 1: Well, you don't know, look on the website and see
Speaker 1: if the criteria that's listed on the website is not
Speaker 1: the criteria that you need.
Speaker 2: Put the pressure on the Swedes, get them.
Speaker 1: To write the website.
Speaker 2: So no, and look, I marginally joke there, but I
Speaker 2: do genuinely want to have an I applied to be
Speaker 2: an astronaut a couple of years back when European Space
Speaker 2: Agency opened its application.
Speaker 1: Really so you and Catherine you did mention this, were
Speaker 1: in the same ination application, coh.
Speaker 2: So, between the two of us we passed six out
Speaker 2: of seven rounds. Yes, six out of six were hers.
Speaker 2: But let's not get into that. Let's get into the
Speaker 2: data there average.
Speaker 1: As a cohort.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I applied. There was I think it was
Speaker 2: about twenty seven thousand applicants in the process, and the
Speaker 2: first cut is ninety percent get cut. So I got
Speaker 2: cut then. But they usually open their doors every ten
Speaker 2: or eleven years, but I think they're trying to ramp
Speaker 2: it back up, so it might be as short as
Speaker 2: six to eight.
Speaker 1: So you do want to get to spac I want
Speaker 1: to have another crack.
Speaker 2: And so I've got you know, between that, I've got
Speaker 2: another kind of six years. So what are the skills
Speaker 2: I need to try and develop from here until then
Speaker 2: to make for a more compelling applicant.
Speaker 1: I love how logical you are about, like I want
Speaker 1: to get from A to B? What in my part chart?
Speaker 1: Am I missing from A to B? And you're the same.
Speaker 1: With dating, You're the same with upskilling, you're the same.
Speaker 1: But it's really interesting. It's like such a logical way
Speaker 1: to look at it, because most people go, I want
Speaker 1: to go from A to B and instra gratuity and like,
Speaker 1: I just what's the quickest way I can get there?
Speaker 1: And you're like, no, what am I missing? It's such
Speaker 1: a d driven way to look at it. But it's
Speaker 1: also like I just had an interview this morning where
Speaker 1: the question that you said is like, what was the
Speaker 1: worst case scenario? You go back to what you're doing before.
Speaker 1: And the thing I always try and like remind people
Speaker 1: when they have a big goal, especially one that seems impossible,
Speaker 1: like space A. Someone has to go. So someone is
Speaker 1: going to go the data is someone will why not you?
Speaker 1: And b the time is going to pass anyway. So
Speaker 1: when you said I'm going to be a data scientist
Speaker 1: and I'll learn X, or I'm going to get you know,
Speaker 1: do a business and I'll learn why, which is a
Speaker 1: million times X, It's like you're going to spend eighteen
Speaker 1: months either way, you might as well spend eighteen months
Speaker 1: learning the stuff.
Speaker 2: I say this exact thing. Oh my god, people are like, ah,
Speaker 2: should I You know, I'm thinking of going back to
Speaker 2: do medicine. But you know, by the time I finished,
Speaker 2: I'll be thirty six. I'm like, you can six anyway,
Speaker 2: Oh my god. Right, Like you turn thirty six and
Speaker 2: you've got a degree or you don't.
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, either you turn thirty six with the medical
Speaker 1: degree or you turn thirty six without it, doing exactly
Speaker 1: the same thing as you're doing a twenty.
Speaker 3: Six Yeah, Oh my god, it's like you did an
Speaker 3: agree and it's like, oh, well, you just delete it
Speaker 3: four years.
Speaker 2: You're forty now wake you skipped on. That's not how
Speaker 2: it works. The time is the time goes right, it's
Speaker 2: going to You're gonna eventually get there. So there's something
Speaker 2: you want to do, just just do it, like why not?
Speaker 2: And even if you start it and you decide actually
Speaker 2: it wasn't for me, Like, that's still the like the
Speaker 2: period when you stop, you're still going to get there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, the time keeps going correct, just continuous
Speaker 1: to continuum science. We've solved We've solved the universe.
Speaker 2: We've solved life, which I thought we were based on
Speaker 2: our tangents. I thought we would solve life.
Speaker 1: I thought we had solved life. Turns out we hadn't
Speaker 1: there And I also have realized it is you are
Speaker 1: so multifaceted. It is impossible even as a two parter,
Speaker 1: Like I feel like we need a ten part for
Speaker 1: all the changes that we need. But I've already run
Speaker 1: us over time and solving life is a really great
Speaker 1: place y place. But I'm so glad that we got
Speaker 1: to visit some of the other facets of what you're
Speaker 1: doing and the fact that you do want to get
Speaker 1: to space because in six to eight years we'll do
Speaker 1: the anniversary episode, and I think the time will have
Speaker 1: passed anyway, so we'll be fascinating to hear what you
Speaker 1: have done in that pie chart. And like you said,
Speaker 1: worst case scenario is you've tried to position yourself for
Speaker 1: the next astronaut intake, you don't make it. You've got
Speaker 1: all these extra skills. It's not a waste, that's it.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: And one of the ones I want to start doing
Speaker 2: is getting some pilot time chopper or plane. But that's like,
Speaker 2: you know, I don't get into the national programs. I
Speaker 2: got to learn how to fly a plane creationally.
Speaker 1: You know, I can drink and drive because pash not
Speaker 1: exactly exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know, get up in the plane, crack
Speaker 2: at tinny like you can't do it. Actually on the
Speaker 2: way I can. On the way here. I was walking
Speaker 2: in with this and a guy goes a bit early
Speaker 2: for that.
Speaker 1: Actually, no, it's never too early for a part, never too.
Speaker 2: Early for a past, never too early for a past.
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's a great. It's Actually we we won
Speaker 2: as you did. We were in the World Beer Awards
Speaker 2: and we won Best Non Alcoholic beer in Australia that
Speaker 2: is insane. That some of the some of the big incumbents,
Speaker 2: that is amazing. So if you want to taste the
Speaker 2: best non alcoholic beer in Australia as determined by the
Speaker 2: World Beer.
Speaker 1: Awards, drink and also look out for Pash on Short Tank. Yes,
Speaker 1: I don't know if the episode will have come out
Speaker 1: by the time this does. Maybe not.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, actually it sure depends. Yeah, you may have
Speaker 2: already seen me. You may you may not have.
Speaker 1: If you have not tune in.
Speaker 2: Shark Tank next chapter, the next chapter. Yes, you're going
Speaker 2: to Marthew Argue.
Speaker 1: Your name is spelled correctly to be Terrances, but unfortunately
Speaker 1: it's not.
Speaker 2: That's why they the folks wrote it down the light Terrans.
Speaker 1: Well, thanks for an amata, Thank you for joining me,
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you well. As I said again, we
Speaker 1: could have gone so much further into all of these
Speaker 1: topics and many others, but I'm so glad that we
Speaker 1: at least came back for part two, and I hope
Speaker 1: that you guys enjoyed listening. All the links are in
Speaker 1: the show notes to his books to Pash to the
Speaker 1: other episodes that we mentioned in part one, where you
Speaker 1: can hear more about the behind the scenes from The
Speaker 1: Bachelor if that's what you're interested in, or much more
Speaker 1: detail about his mental health journey on Jess Rose podcast.
Speaker 1: And please, as always, do share the episode on socials
Speaker 1: do it now and take a screenshot and share it,
Speaker 1: tagging and doctor Matt Agnew to thank him for his time,
Speaker 1: generous vulnerability, and also just to let him know what
Speaker 1: you thought if there was anything that really resonated. I
Speaker 1: cannot believe we are in November already. Gosh, time is flying. Yes,
Speaker 1: I am back to saying that every single episode, but truly,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just speeding up at such a rapid rate.
Speaker 1: In fact, I should have asked the astrophysicists about that
Speaker 1: the whole time space continuum thing, but it really does
Speaker 1: seem to just be escalating. I hope that you guys
Speaker 1: are enjoying having some yeay a little bit more regularly
Speaker 1: in your ears, and as always, please do let me
Speaker 1: know if you have any feedback, suggestions, or requests. We
Speaker 1: will take a short break over Christmas, but then we'll
Speaker 1: be back at this much more regular cadence next year
Speaker 1: and have some incredible other guests either already recorded or
Speaker 1: in the pipeline. It's going to be such a big
Speaker 1: twenty twenty five. It just is so lovely to be back.
Speaker 1: But in the meantime, I hope you guys are having
Speaker 1: a wonderful week and are seizing your yay assass