1 00:00:11,064 --> 00:00:11,384 Speaker 1: So much. 2 00:00:11,424 --> 00:00:14,104 Speaker 2: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. 3 00:00:14,784 --> 00:00:18,664 Speaker 1: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and borders 4 00:00:18,704 --> 00:00:26,544 Speaker 1: that this podcast is recorded on From Mamma Mia. Welcome 5 00:00:26,584 --> 00:00:30,624 Speaker 1: to the Spill your daily pop culture Fix. I'm Laura Brodnick. 6 00:00:30,344 --> 00:00:33,824 Speaker 3: And I'm Cassena Lukitch. And on today's show, we are 7 00:00:33,824 --> 00:00:39,224 Speaker 3: talking about a celebrity and renowned feminist who has just 8 00:00:39,344 --> 00:00:42,424 Speaker 3: dropped a massive bomb. She has said that she's not 9 00:00:42,624 --> 00:00:46,504 Speaker 3: going to be interviewed by female journalists anymore. 10 00:00:46,504 --> 00:00:47,304 Speaker 2: So we're going to get. 11 00:00:47,144 --> 00:00:51,904 Speaker 3: Into that, but first we need to talk about two things. 12 00:00:52,504 --> 00:00:54,624 Speaker 2: Jam and Rose, yes. 13 00:00:54,944 --> 00:00:56,704 Speaker 1: Kind of my two faith things. I mean, Rose is 14 00:00:56,744 --> 00:00:58,744 Speaker 1: up there. I'm actually not a jam girl, so maybe 15 00:00:58,744 --> 00:01:00,464 Speaker 1: I'm speaking out of turn on this whole thing. I'm 16 00:01:00,504 --> 00:01:01,984 Speaker 1: going to weigh in on Jam and a really, but 17 00:01:01,984 --> 00:01:03,944 Speaker 1: I've found an expert to help us out. 18 00:01:04,024 --> 00:01:07,224 Speaker 3: Unfortunately, this is about Megan Markle again. I know that 19 00:01:07,224 --> 00:01:10,504 Speaker 3: we talk about her a lot, but there have it's 20 00:01:10,504 --> 00:01:14,624 Speaker 3: been some less than favorable reviews about her latest Jam drop. 21 00:01:15,184 --> 00:01:17,464 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, her latest collection. So yeah, that's the thing 22 00:01:17,464 --> 00:01:20,504 Speaker 1: about Megamarcaela is like we could cover her on this 23 00:01:20,584 --> 00:01:23,144 Speaker 1: podcast every day, every day we record, there is a 24 00:01:23,184 --> 00:01:26,024 Speaker 1: story about her, and they're mostly negative because that's what 25 00:01:26,024 --> 00:01:28,624 Speaker 1: people are leaning into. So we try and stay out 26 00:01:28,664 --> 00:01:30,904 Speaker 1: of the fray as much as possible unless there's something 27 00:01:30,904 --> 00:01:33,384 Speaker 1: that pops up where we feel like we could weigh in. 28 00:01:33,424 --> 00:01:36,144 Speaker 1: And what's kind of interesting is that because she hasn't 29 00:01:36,144 --> 00:01:39,744 Speaker 1: been doing any big public like in person appearances. Her 30 00:01:39,744 --> 00:01:41,864 Speaker 1: TV show isn't coming back for a while, she hasn't 31 00:01:41,904 --> 00:01:44,064 Speaker 1: launched a new book or anything like that, there's not 32 00:01:44,184 --> 00:01:47,064 Speaker 1: been as much for people to kind of nitpick at 33 00:01:47,184 --> 00:01:49,864 Speaker 1: about her life and what she and Harry are doing. 34 00:01:49,904 --> 00:01:52,784 Speaker 1: Not since we covered her when she posted the very innocent, 35 00:01:52,904 --> 00:01:56,544 Speaker 1: very lovely video of her daughter, Lillabette's birth, Yes, and 36 00:01:56,744 --> 00:01:59,224 Speaker 1: wanted to celebrate that, and everyone was like, well, that's 37 00:01:59,224 --> 00:02:00,744 Speaker 1: a fake pregnancy stomach. 38 00:02:00,464 --> 00:02:00,904 Speaker 2: Isn't I know? 39 00:02:01,064 --> 00:02:02,784 Speaker 3: And then like, I mean, the thing is, she's done 40 00:02:02,944 --> 00:02:05,744 Speaker 3: a number of podcasts lately, but she's just been torn 41 00:02:05,824 --> 00:02:09,104 Speaker 3: to treads by parody accounts on TikTok. 42 00:02:09,584 --> 00:02:11,264 Speaker 1: Yeah, but this is. 43 00:02:11,304 --> 00:02:13,784 Speaker 2: Primarily about her raspberry jam. 44 00:02:14,464 --> 00:02:18,944 Speaker 3: So basically the raspberry jam that she's had has been 45 00:02:19,824 --> 00:02:23,944 Speaker 3: torn to pieces by renowned jam expert Donna Collins. 46 00:02:24,224 --> 00:02:26,504 Speaker 1: Yes, I mean who Donna was before that I didn't. 47 00:02:26,664 --> 00:02:29,224 Speaker 1: I must confess I'm not educated in this area. I'm 48 00:02:29,224 --> 00:02:30,744 Speaker 1: not a part of it. I don't identify as part 49 00:02:30,784 --> 00:02:32,864 Speaker 1: of the jam community. So I didn't know there were 50 00:02:32,944 --> 00:02:36,264 Speaker 1: jam experts. But she has won this woman, Donna has 51 00:02:36,344 --> 00:02:40,024 Speaker 1: one over forty jam competition, so I yes, she is 52 00:02:40,224 --> 00:02:41,864 Speaker 1: very qualified to weigh in. 53 00:02:42,264 --> 00:02:45,024 Speaker 3: And the difference between a Jam and Mama later spread 54 00:02:45,184 --> 00:02:49,464 Speaker 3: as like coolly like, it seems like this is quite 55 00:02:49,544 --> 00:02:50,104 Speaker 3: a big. 56 00:02:49,904 --> 00:02:51,824 Speaker 1: This world is not a faint of heart, like this 57 00:02:51,944 --> 00:02:53,584 Speaker 1: is like you think you like jam, this is not 58 00:02:53,624 --> 00:02:54,264 Speaker 1: the place for you. 59 00:02:54,864 --> 00:02:59,624 Speaker 3: So Donna said that it's a real disappointment, stating it's 60 00:02:59,664 --> 00:03:02,504 Speaker 3: quite disappointing to see Megan marketing a fruit spread, which 61 00:03:02,624 --> 00:03:05,984 Speaker 3: essentially is what you create when jam does not succeed. 62 00:03:07,424 --> 00:03:10,784 Speaker 3: Collins explains that in a world preserves, a spread is 63 00:03:10,864 --> 00:03:15,024 Speaker 3: often a failed jam, too runny to set properly. She 64 00:03:15,184 --> 00:03:19,744 Speaker 3: questioned why Markle used pecton a gelling agent, suggesting it 65 00:03:19,824 --> 00:03:22,024 Speaker 3: was needed because the product was too liquid, and that's 66 00:03:22,104 --> 00:03:23,944 Speaker 3: kind of been the general feedback is that it's very 67 00:03:24,024 --> 00:03:25,184 Speaker 3: runny jam. 68 00:03:25,224 --> 00:03:26,904 Speaker 2: Again, I'm not a massive jam eater. 69 00:03:27,464 --> 00:03:30,544 Speaker 1: I yeah, I don't love jam, But although Bradwood like 70 00:03:30,584 --> 00:03:34,224 Speaker 1: would be very yeah, I no, no jam is like 71 00:03:34,304 --> 00:03:36,024 Speaker 1: but also, this is what we found when she first 72 00:03:36,064 --> 00:03:39,464 Speaker 1: launched her brand, which is now called as Ever, but 73 00:03:39,824 --> 00:03:43,584 Speaker 1: was previously called American Riviera Orchard. It took me a 74 00:03:43,624 --> 00:03:45,144 Speaker 1: long time to remember that. So even though that name 75 00:03:45,184 --> 00:03:47,984 Speaker 1: has been forbidden now I'm gonna keep saying it. So 76 00:03:48,144 --> 00:03:50,344 Speaker 1: she couldn't get the trademark for that. She launched as Ever, 77 00:03:50,824 --> 00:03:52,664 Speaker 1: and the big thing was, well, actually the big thing 78 00:03:52,704 --> 00:03:55,144 Speaker 1: was remembered when she sent those jam baskets out to 79 00:03:55,264 --> 00:03:57,944 Speaker 1: like a select few and everyone was trying to work 80 00:03:57,944 --> 00:04:00,984 Speaker 1: out which celebrities were important enough to get the jam 81 00:04:01,064 --> 00:04:02,824 Speaker 1: and who got the first jam and it was this 82 00:04:02,904 --> 00:04:05,144 Speaker 1: huge thing. And then that was such a big plot 83 00:04:05,184 --> 00:04:08,424 Speaker 1: point on her Megan Marchaul with Love megaan Netflix show, 84 00:04:08,664 --> 00:04:12,184 Speaker 1: because Mindy Kayling, the People's Princess, was like, hey, megot 85 00:04:12,304 --> 00:04:15,464 Speaker 1: who got the most important gem? And Megan was like 86 00:04:15,664 --> 00:04:18,224 Speaker 1: so like so shocked, and she was like, I just 87 00:04:18,224 --> 00:04:20,784 Speaker 1: thought people want a gem and like there's no number, 88 00:04:20,784 --> 00:04:23,584 Speaker 1: there's no hierarchy. I just thought everyone would like them. 89 00:04:24,064 --> 00:04:27,064 Speaker 1: The poor sweet innocent girl didn't know the gem drama 90 00:04:27,144 --> 00:04:28,944 Speaker 1: that she had unleashed in that moment. 91 00:04:28,824 --> 00:04:31,104 Speaker 3: And it feels like it's kind of like one of 92 00:04:31,104 --> 00:04:35,384 Speaker 3: those things of like making tea, Like when Brits make tea, 93 00:04:35,424 --> 00:04:38,224 Speaker 3: they get very like defensive over how you make a 94 00:04:38,224 --> 00:04:40,424 Speaker 3: cup of tea. And there's something about an America making 95 00:04:40,464 --> 00:04:43,384 Speaker 3: a cup of tea that really like offends the Brits. 96 00:04:43,824 --> 00:04:46,184 Speaker 2: Yeah, it even offended me. And I don't drink tea 97 00:04:46,264 --> 00:04:48,104 Speaker 2: like us in the way that people make these. 98 00:04:48,024 --> 00:04:48,824 Speaker 1: Cups of tea. 99 00:04:48,864 --> 00:04:52,344 Speaker 2: But I think that that's part of it. But look, 100 00:04:52,384 --> 00:04:53,904 Speaker 2: it's all sold out again. 101 00:04:54,304 --> 00:04:57,064 Speaker 3: But there has been these criticism, and we spoke about 102 00:04:57,064 --> 00:05:01,984 Speaker 3: this before. Is that is it actually like selling out 103 00:05:02,184 --> 00:05:03,904 Speaker 3: or she's just not made a lot of her. 104 00:05:03,904 --> 00:05:06,624 Speaker 1: That's what people are saying today. So the reason Donna 105 00:05:06,704 --> 00:05:09,784 Speaker 1: the Gem Expert has been sought for her professional opinion 106 00:05:10,384 --> 00:05:12,464 Speaker 1: by the Daily Mail, who you know did reach out 107 00:05:12,464 --> 00:05:14,424 Speaker 1: to her and said, can you critique this jam? This 108 00:05:14,504 --> 00:05:17,144 Speaker 1: happened also when Megan Michael did her first Jam drop, 109 00:05:17,184 --> 00:05:18,704 Speaker 1: A lot of people did the critique of it and 110 00:05:18,744 --> 00:05:20,864 Speaker 1: it was quite bad. Like the cut got a number 111 00:05:20,904 --> 00:05:22,504 Speaker 1: of people who and they were the ones who had 112 00:05:22,504 --> 00:05:24,704 Speaker 1: burned her in that whole big profile they did with her. 113 00:05:24,784 --> 00:05:27,504 Speaker 1: So you know, there's a lot of hurt feelings behind 114 00:05:27,544 --> 00:05:30,144 Speaker 1: the scenes of that particular article, but they had a 115 00:05:30,144 --> 00:05:32,224 Speaker 1: bunch of taste testers who so the jam was bad. 116 00:05:32,584 --> 00:05:35,064 Speaker 1: This is her second drop, and yet it all started. 117 00:05:35,344 --> 00:05:38,064 Speaker 1: Megan's like very much in her entrepreneurial space right now, 118 00:05:38,264 --> 00:05:41,064 Speaker 1: Like she has her own podcast now, which is so 119 00:05:41,104 --> 00:05:43,704 Speaker 1: she's pivoted away from like those big celebrity interviews, the 120 00:05:43,744 --> 00:05:47,344 Speaker 1: podcast she was originally doing, and now she's interviewing female founders. 121 00:05:47,584 --> 00:05:50,064 Speaker 1: She's also going on other people's podcasts to talk about 122 00:05:50,144 --> 00:05:53,104 Speaker 1: female being a female founder and is getting torn to 123 00:05:53,104 --> 00:05:55,744 Speaker 1: shreds because she said she's a really hard worker who's 124 00:05:55,784 --> 00:05:58,424 Speaker 1: really in the weeds. And to be fair to her, 125 00:05:58,664 --> 00:06:00,464 Speaker 1: she's talking about being a hard worker in terms of, 126 00:06:00,504 --> 00:06:03,824 Speaker 1: like I think she's inferring that she could potentially work 127 00:06:03,944 --> 00:06:06,144 Speaker 1: less just because of the money that they have and 128 00:06:06,184 --> 00:06:08,184 Speaker 1: the money they could have for deals and things like that, 129 00:06:08,744 --> 00:06:10,904 Speaker 1: but she chooses to kind of work around the clock 130 00:06:10,944 --> 00:06:14,104 Speaker 1: and be very involved. She's not saying she works harder 131 00:06:14,144 --> 00:06:16,104 Speaker 1: than like a nurse or a doctor or something like that, 132 00:06:16,144 --> 00:06:18,024 Speaker 1: which is the kind of inflection that people have put 133 00:06:18,024 --> 00:06:20,784 Speaker 1: on that. But as she's been in her big entrepreneurial space, 134 00:06:21,344 --> 00:06:23,264 Speaker 1: has ever put out their new jobs. So it had 135 00:06:23,344 --> 00:06:26,424 Speaker 1: like all the different little like homewhere things you can 136 00:06:26,424 --> 00:06:28,944 Speaker 1: buy and the jam, and then she put up an 137 00:06:28,984 --> 00:06:32,184 Speaker 1: Instagram story saying it had all sold out almost immediately, 138 00:06:32,224 --> 00:06:34,544 Speaker 1: and she made special note of the flower sprinkles you 139 00:06:34,584 --> 00:06:37,384 Speaker 1: remember in her Netflix show that was a huge thing. 140 00:06:37,624 --> 00:06:39,664 Speaker 1: How everyone was like, no one's going to use those. 141 00:06:39,744 --> 00:06:41,984 Speaker 1: And I wonder if, like her post that she put 142 00:06:42,064 --> 00:06:43,264 Speaker 1: up was a bit of a dig at that, because 143 00:06:43,264 --> 00:06:44,624 Speaker 1: she said, I knew you guys would love those and 144 00:06:44,624 --> 00:06:47,384 Speaker 1: they would sell out. But everything has sold out and 145 00:06:47,704 --> 00:06:50,264 Speaker 1: most and the jam sold out the quickest, and now 146 00:06:50,304 --> 00:06:52,504 Speaker 1: people are saying that it was a fake stock or 147 00:06:52,504 --> 00:06:55,104 Speaker 1: that there was never stock to begin with. All that 148 00:06:55,344 --> 00:06:57,624 Speaker 1: there's only like ten jars of jams. Of course they 149 00:06:57,744 --> 00:06:59,184 Speaker 1: sold out, so they're calling her bluff. 150 00:06:59,224 --> 00:07:01,704 Speaker 3: I don't think that that's like necessarily a bad thing. 151 00:07:01,744 --> 00:07:05,144 Speaker 3: If that's a marketing tactic she's done, it's very very common. 152 00:07:05,704 --> 00:07:08,024 Speaker 2: I'm actually starting to feel sorry for her now. 153 00:07:08,104 --> 00:07:10,744 Speaker 1: Yeah, I always feel sorry for a little only because it's. 154 00:07:10,544 --> 00:07:13,344 Speaker 2: Like constant pylon of her exactly. 155 00:07:13,384 --> 00:07:15,384 Speaker 1: And we've been having this conversation since she came on 156 00:07:15,424 --> 00:07:17,504 Speaker 1: the scene so many years ago, like it's this constant 157 00:07:17,584 --> 00:07:20,264 Speaker 1: kind of pylon of like she puts out a release 158 00:07:20,464 --> 00:07:23,224 Speaker 1: and yes, we find the humor and obviously because like 159 00:07:23,584 --> 00:07:25,784 Speaker 1: at first there was the whole thing about which celebrities 160 00:07:25,824 --> 00:07:28,304 Speaker 1: had the jam and who had this? And then it 161 00:07:28,424 --> 00:07:30,464 Speaker 1: was like and then the jam never appeared for sale 162 00:07:30,544 --> 00:07:33,344 Speaker 1: and people like, where's the jam? Megan? You lie to us, 163 00:07:33,384 --> 00:07:36,104 Speaker 1: like give us our jam. Then there was a hilarious 164 00:07:36,144 --> 00:07:38,264 Speaker 1: moment which wasn't even anything to do with her but jimmer, 165 00:07:38,304 --> 00:07:40,944 Speaker 1: when the Palace put out an official statement saying that 166 00:07:40,984 --> 00:07:43,384 Speaker 1: they had been selling jam. First, do you remember that? 167 00:07:43,584 --> 00:07:43,624 Speaker 3: No? 168 00:07:44,104 --> 00:07:44,984 Speaker 1: No, because this is. 169 00:07:44,944 --> 00:07:45,944 Speaker 2: So crazy over jam. 170 00:07:46,264 --> 00:07:48,784 Speaker 1: Buckingham Palace has a jam. I believe you can buy 171 00:07:48,784 --> 00:07:50,784 Speaker 1: it in the gift shop. And after there was that 172 00:07:50,864 --> 00:07:53,664 Speaker 1: whole thing of where is Megan Michael's jam And it's 173 00:07:53,664 --> 00:07:56,224 Speaker 1: not even jam, it's a preserve like this is years ago. 174 00:07:56,784 --> 00:07:59,624 Speaker 1: And then Buckingham Palace, the messy bitches that they are, 175 00:07:59,944 --> 00:08:02,504 Speaker 1: put out a statement saying that their jam was world 176 00:08:02,544 --> 00:08:05,144 Speaker 1: renound and that's the jam, and they never mentioned Megan 177 00:08:05,224 --> 00:08:07,864 Speaker 1: or anything like that. But the timing was so spot 178 00:08:07,904 --> 00:08:10,624 Speaker 1: on and suspicious that it was a clear dig at her. 179 00:08:10,984 --> 00:08:13,584 Speaker 1: Now this new Dropp has come out and across her socials, 180 00:08:13,864 --> 00:08:15,704 Speaker 1: and you can tell she spent so much time making 181 00:08:15,864 --> 00:08:18,584 Speaker 1: like her social announcement look beautiful, because that's very her vibe. 182 00:08:18,584 --> 00:08:21,424 Speaker 1: Like she's very Instagram kind of curated, yeah, very curated, 183 00:08:21,464 --> 00:08:24,104 Speaker 1: like kind of circle like twenty eleven twelve, that very 184 00:08:24,224 --> 00:08:26,864 Speaker 1: kind of like you know, put together, like you know, 185 00:08:27,024 --> 00:08:28,784 Speaker 1: you can just tell that she's she's a woman who 186 00:08:28,864 --> 00:08:31,464 Speaker 1: has just died a little inside when she was in 187 00:08:31,504 --> 00:08:34,544 Speaker 1: the Royal Family and she couldn't post like a black 188 00:08:34,544 --> 00:08:37,624 Speaker 1: and white picture of an ocean or her avocado toast 189 00:08:37,624 --> 00:08:39,904 Speaker 1: in the morning, like that really hurt her. So she's 190 00:08:39,904 --> 00:08:43,064 Speaker 1: back on the Instagram train, and all people are really 191 00:08:43,104 --> 00:08:45,784 Speaker 1: taking away from it is that she's faked the jam 192 00:08:45,824 --> 00:08:48,664 Speaker 1: stock and that this woman Donna, like this one's getting 193 00:08:48,704 --> 00:08:51,624 Speaker 1: more press than like the Royal Family or even almost 194 00:08:51,664 --> 00:08:54,144 Speaker 1: Megan mikel herself at the moment, like because she put 195 00:08:54,184 --> 00:08:57,184 Speaker 1: out this terrible review of Megan Michael's Jam and said 196 00:08:57,184 --> 00:09:00,744 Speaker 1: it's fake jam, it's been made badly, and it's got pesticides. 197 00:09:00,784 --> 00:09:02,584 Speaker 1: So really, what Donna's trying to say is that Megan 198 00:09:02,584 --> 00:09:04,384 Speaker 1: Michael's trying to kill you with jam. 199 00:09:04,944 --> 00:09:08,584 Speaker 3: Is oh my god, it's new conspiracy there and you go, well, jam, 200 00:09:08,704 --> 00:09:11,144 Speaker 3: the jam is trying to kill you. You, I mean, 201 00:09:11,224 --> 00:09:13,784 Speaker 3: this is this is like the crazy thing about all 202 00:09:13,824 --> 00:09:16,304 Speaker 3: of this is I've never had a jam expert before. 203 00:09:16,424 --> 00:09:17,744 Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that, love that love. 204 00:09:17,744 --> 00:09:18,504 Speaker 1: That's very good. 205 00:09:18,904 --> 00:09:20,664 Speaker 2: I would love to see if anyone's tried it. 206 00:09:20,824 --> 00:09:21,744 Speaker 1: Yeah, and any of our. 207 00:09:21,664 --> 00:09:23,424 Speaker 2: Spiller has tried it and liked it. 208 00:09:23,864 --> 00:09:27,344 Speaker 1: I'm sure Donna like takes her jam critiquing very seriously, 209 00:09:27,424 --> 00:09:29,624 Speaker 1: like that is her industry and her passion in her life. 210 00:09:29,944 --> 00:09:33,024 Speaker 1: But also maybe she's holding it to a higher standard. 211 00:09:33,184 --> 00:09:34,864 Speaker 1: I don't know. She also said I don't believe Megan 212 00:09:34,944 --> 00:09:37,704 Speaker 1: mikel is making this jam. That's Donna's accusation. And to that, 213 00:09:37,784 --> 00:09:40,504 Speaker 1: I say, yeah, Donna, we don't think she's making the jam, 214 00:09:40,504 --> 00:09:42,504 Speaker 1: and no offense. I don't want jam that's come from 215 00:09:42,544 --> 00:09:45,024 Speaker 1: Mega michaels like home kitchen with the chickens running in 216 00:09:45,024 --> 00:09:46,224 Speaker 1: and out, like I want it to come from a 217 00:09:46,264 --> 00:09:49,104 Speaker 1: proper factory where it's all like or it's all like 218 00:09:49,184 --> 00:09:51,384 Speaker 1: done properly. But I feel like I can't wait into 219 00:09:51,424 --> 00:09:53,984 Speaker 1: the jam. But she is releasing a rose soon, her 220 00:09:54,104 --> 00:09:56,584 Speaker 1: very own rose, and that I will weigh it on 221 00:09:56,664 --> 00:09:58,744 Speaker 1: because that I feel very confident speaking on. 222 00:09:58,904 --> 00:10:00,984 Speaker 2: I just feel like a Rose brand again. 223 00:10:01,024 --> 00:10:04,664 Speaker 3: It's all very dated, like like everyone was releasing Rose 224 00:10:04,864 --> 00:10:06,864 Speaker 3: brands like a decade ago. 225 00:10:06,984 --> 00:10:08,304 Speaker 2: Like it feels like. 226 00:10:09,384 --> 00:10:12,584 Speaker 3: It's like she's been pulled back from the limelight for 227 00:10:12,664 --> 00:10:13,904 Speaker 3: so long that she's doing all. 228 00:10:13,784 --> 00:10:15,984 Speaker 1: These before she was in the royal family. 229 00:10:16,064 --> 00:10:17,744 Speaker 3: Yeah, she's like doing all these things that she wanted 230 00:10:17,784 --> 00:10:20,944 Speaker 3: to do a while ago, Like Kylie Minogue's done a Rose, 231 00:10:21,864 --> 00:10:24,504 Speaker 3: like everybody, like Man and their Dog has done a Rose, 232 00:10:24,864 --> 00:10:26,224 Speaker 3: like the Heinrich sit of Rose. 233 00:10:26,904 --> 00:10:29,064 Speaker 1: I know it's out and about everyone, but I think 234 00:10:29,104 --> 00:10:32,184 Speaker 1: she's just doing She's very kind of regressive in a way, 235 00:10:32,304 --> 00:10:34,944 Speaker 1: but in a really lovely way where she's she's leaning 236 00:10:34,944 --> 00:10:38,144 Speaker 1: back into that cute sea, very curated Instagram world and 237 00:10:38,184 --> 00:10:40,384 Speaker 1: releasing her Rose and I kind of love that for her. 238 00:10:40,424 --> 00:10:42,184 Speaker 1: But yes, that I do feel like her. Weigh in on. 239 00:10:42,224 --> 00:10:43,664 Speaker 1: I'll give Donora a run for her money in the 240 00:10:43,784 --> 00:10:44,544 Speaker 1: critiquing stake. 241 00:10:44,584 --> 00:10:45,944 Speaker 2: Did we do it a taste test? 242 00:10:46,024 --> 00:10:48,824 Speaker 1: Yes, Well it's going to be a limited drop, so 243 00:10:48,864 --> 00:10:51,744 Speaker 1: here's we have to do. Set our alarms. You abandoned 244 00:10:51,744 --> 00:10:54,904 Speaker 1: your children and husband, and we will sit together and 245 00:10:54,944 --> 00:10:56,904 Speaker 1: we will buy the rose the second it comes out. 246 00:10:56,944 --> 00:10:58,544 Speaker 1: I feel like that's the only way we can do it. 247 00:10:59,824 --> 00:11:03,064 Speaker 3: Jimmila Jamil, activist an actor, has taken a pretty strong 248 00:11:03,144 --> 00:11:06,864 Speaker 3: stance on her sub stack recently. Now this happened a 249 00:11:06,904 --> 00:11:09,384 Speaker 3: couple of days ago, but it's taken us a while 250 00:11:09,424 --> 00:11:12,224 Speaker 3: to sort of digestive. Now, the title of the substack 251 00:11:12,384 --> 00:11:15,824 Speaker 3: is I think I'm done with being interviewed by women. 252 00:11:16,384 --> 00:11:21,464 Speaker 3: I am disgusted. There is a lot to unpack here now. 253 00:11:21,704 --> 00:11:24,864 Speaker 3: Jamila Jamil is, you know, very well known for her 254 00:11:24,944 --> 00:11:29,224 Speaker 3: feminism and her activism. If you've seen the good place 255 00:11:29,664 --> 00:11:32,584 Speaker 3: she was in that she was a presenter. 256 00:11:32,864 --> 00:11:33,904 Speaker 2: She was born in the UK. 257 00:11:34,504 --> 00:11:37,064 Speaker 3: Back in twenty nineteen, was named by Time magazine as 258 00:11:37,064 --> 00:11:39,784 Speaker 3: the twenty five most influential people on the Internet. Like, 259 00:11:39,904 --> 00:11:43,304 Speaker 3: she has done a lot of really wonderful advocacy work, 260 00:11:43,344 --> 00:11:49,184 Speaker 3: particularly in the eating disorder space and feminism and advocating 261 00:11:49,264 --> 00:11:49,704 Speaker 3: for women. 262 00:11:50,824 --> 00:11:52,184 Speaker 1: Now, the core of. 263 00:11:52,144 --> 00:11:56,064 Speaker 3: This article is basically talking about how she was interviewed 264 00:11:56,144 --> 00:12:01,944 Speaker 3: recently by Liz Edwarods for The Sunday Times, and she 265 00:12:02,384 --> 00:12:06,064 Speaker 3: basically said she's disgusted by the I'm going to call 266 00:12:06,104 --> 00:12:11,664 Speaker 3: it fluff language. That happens around the interview. She basically 267 00:12:11,664 --> 00:12:16,184 Speaker 3: says that it has reduced her to you know, all 268 00:12:16,264 --> 00:12:20,104 Speaker 3: of her mental health and physical health problems that she had. 269 00:12:20,544 --> 00:12:24,464 Speaker 3: It's reduced her to controversies rather than talking about the 270 00:12:24,504 --> 00:12:28,384 Speaker 3: good work that she's done. Also, to be clear, she 271 00:12:28,464 --> 00:12:32,544 Speaker 3: says that this is only about print journalism, not about 272 00:12:32,944 --> 00:12:36,744 Speaker 3: like podcasts or in verbatim articles written by women, So 273 00:12:36,784 --> 00:12:38,144 Speaker 3: it's not like she's attacking women. 274 00:12:38,224 --> 00:12:39,304 Speaker 1: I think that's. 275 00:12:39,064 --> 00:12:40,784 Speaker 3: What a lot of people are picking up is, Oh, 276 00:12:40,784 --> 00:12:43,104 Speaker 3: she's not going to be interviewed by any female journalist. 277 00:12:43,664 --> 00:12:46,584 Speaker 3: There's been a couple of snarky articles following up on 278 00:12:46,664 --> 00:12:50,024 Speaker 3: this particular substack, but the core of it is that 279 00:12:50,064 --> 00:12:53,664 Speaker 3: she doesn't feel like she has been represented correctly, and 280 00:12:53,864 --> 00:12:59,504 Speaker 3: the people focus so strongly on the negative things that 281 00:12:59,504 --> 00:13:03,224 Speaker 3: have happened and her quote unquote controversies that they don't 282 00:13:03,264 --> 00:13:05,704 Speaker 3: actually focus on the work that she's doing. 283 00:13:06,144 --> 00:13:08,584 Speaker 1: Now, yes, I've got to say, like I thought it 284 00:13:08,624 --> 00:13:11,224 Speaker 1: was a really interesting take, but I'm a little bit 285 00:13:11,264 --> 00:13:13,544 Speaker 1: on the fence about some of the things she's bringing up. 286 00:13:13,744 --> 00:13:15,824 Speaker 1: It is important to say, as you're saying that she's 287 00:13:15,864 --> 00:13:19,624 Speaker 1: been called out for attacking women or disregarding women, but 288 00:13:19,984 --> 00:13:21,744 Speaker 1: she makes some kind of fair point where she says, 289 00:13:21,784 --> 00:13:24,104 Speaker 1: I've been in this industry for over twenty years. In 290 00:13:24,144 --> 00:13:27,464 Speaker 1: that time, I've been an interviewer at an interviewee. And 291 00:13:27,544 --> 00:13:29,784 Speaker 1: she also says that with the number of women that 292 00:13:29,824 --> 00:13:31,744 Speaker 1: have interviewed her for prints, she said she can only 293 00:13:31,864 --> 00:13:34,704 Speaker 1: name four, and then she listed their names, women who 294 00:13:34,744 --> 00:13:38,104 Speaker 1: she feels have done her justice, and this time she says, 295 00:13:38,144 --> 00:13:40,264 Speaker 1: but my trust has been broken for the last time. 296 00:13:40,584 --> 00:13:42,304 Speaker 1: This is where things get interesting, where she says with 297 00:13:42,664 --> 00:13:45,944 Speaker 1: a special thanks to a toothy opinion piece by Liz Edwards, 298 00:13:46,224 --> 00:13:48,424 Speaker 1: who was normally the travel writer. I thought was a 299 00:13:48,424 --> 00:13:50,504 Speaker 1: good little thing where she's just added that nice little 300 00:13:50,544 --> 00:13:53,024 Speaker 1: dig there and then says it's just the straw that's 301 00:13:53,064 --> 00:13:56,024 Speaker 1: broken the camel's back. I also thought it was interesting 302 00:13:56,024 --> 00:13:57,664 Speaker 1: that she starts off by saying that she found the 303 00:13:57,704 --> 00:14:01,264 Speaker 1: experience with Liz like initially very positive. So when I 304 00:14:01,304 --> 00:14:03,024 Speaker 1: read that, because you hear of so many different people, 305 00:14:03,104 --> 00:14:06,864 Speaker 1: especially very high profile people, who sometimes give their side 306 00:14:06,984 --> 00:14:09,704 Speaker 1: of an interview where they feel that they've been slandered 307 00:14:09,784 --> 00:14:13,264 Speaker 1: or they haven't been properly represented, and they often talk 308 00:14:13,304 --> 00:14:15,704 Speaker 1: about it being like not a great experience. But I 309 00:14:15,704 --> 00:14:17,944 Speaker 1: thought it was interesting that Jamilla was saying that she 310 00:14:17,984 --> 00:14:20,704 Speaker 1: felt very safe, that she felt like good in the moment, 311 00:14:21,424 --> 00:14:24,064 Speaker 1: but what her issue is that she said she gave 312 00:14:24,184 --> 00:14:28,424 Speaker 1: over an hour a very thoughtful opinion and background, and 313 00:14:28,464 --> 00:14:30,544 Speaker 1: that was all left out on the cutting room floor. 314 00:14:30,584 --> 00:14:32,704 Speaker 1: I also thought it was interesting that she was recording 315 00:14:32,744 --> 00:14:35,664 Speaker 1: it herself, because she wants the journalist to know that 316 00:14:35,784 --> 00:14:38,504 Speaker 1: she's keeping a record and she wants to release it, 317 00:14:38,544 --> 00:14:41,504 Speaker 1: but she's going to ask their permission first. So it's 318 00:14:41,504 --> 00:14:44,504 Speaker 1: the interview the interview itself. She had a positive experience 319 00:14:44,544 --> 00:14:46,984 Speaker 1: with it's with the write up. It's hard to because 320 00:14:46,984 --> 00:14:49,424 Speaker 1: when I read the piece, the way that Liz opens 321 00:14:49,464 --> 00:14:52,264 Speaker 1: her piece is exactly the way I would have opened it. 322 00:14:52,304 --> 00:14:54,504 Speaker 1: And I've done a lot of interview people, a lot 323 00:14:54,504 --> 00:14:57,104 Speaker 1: for podcasts and video, but mostly I was a print 324 00:14:57,184 --> 00:15:00,224 Speaker 1: journalist for over a decade where I would sit with 325 00:15:00,264 --> 00:15:01,984 Speaker 1: the person, and then a lot here at Mama Mia 326 00:15:02,024 --> 00:15:05,304 Speaker 1: two doing entertainment interviews where you spend sometimes it's twenty 327 00:15:05,344 --> 00:15:07,504 Speaker 1: minutes with the person, sometimes it's a five minute junket. 328 00:15:07,704 --> 00:15:10,264 Speaker 1: Sometimes you get a big bulk of time, but you're 329 00:15:10,504 --> 00:15:13,304 Speaker 1: writing down what they say. But also what you think. 330 00:15:13,384 --> 00:15:14,104 Speaker 1: You're trying to paint. 331 00:15:14,304 --> 00:15:16,224 Speaker 2: Painting a picture exactly. 332 00:15:16,304 --> 00:15:17,984 Speaker 1: So I'll write, like sometimes I'll go into a ten 333 00:15:17,984 --> 00:15:19,984 Speaker 1: minute interview, but I'll write a two thousand mod piece 334 00:15:20,024 --> 00:15:22,464 Speaker 1: on it because I'm using their quotes, but I'm also 335 00:15:22,504 --> 00:15:25,064 Speaker 1: talking about how they acted at the premiere the night before, 336 00:15:25,144 --> 00:15:27,304 Speaker 1: and like what I saw them do, Like I saw 337 00:15:27,424 --> 00:15:30,144 Speaker 1: Cynthia Riever and Ariana Grande sit on the floor together 338 00:15:30,184 --> 00:15:32,304 Speaker 1: and they big ball gowns and cry while they watch Wicked. 339 00:15:32,344 --> 00:15:34,664 Speaker 1: You know, you see Zendea slip out a side door 340 00:15:35,104 --> 00:15:36,704 Speaker 1: during her premiere, and so you put all of that 341 00:15:36,784 --> 00:15:39,264 Speaker 1: color in. But then you're also talking about like in 342 00:15:39,304 --> 00:15:41,304 Speaker 1: the room, like how do they react when you walked in, 343 00:15:41,584 --> 00:15:43,824 Speaker 1: how do they react to your questions? What do they 344 00:15:43,904 --> 00:15:45,824 Speaker 1: laugh at? What do they look concerned about? Did they 345 00:15:45,864 --> 00:15:48,904 Speaker 1: look off to their PR team? And it's hard because 346 00:15:48,904 --> 00:15:51,304 Speaker 1: that's very subjective, Like as a journalist, you're putting your 347 00:15:51,344 --> 00:15:54,824 Speaker 1: own thoughts in there, but it might not necessarily mirror 348 00:15:54,904 --> 00:15:56,944 Speaker 1: up to what they're saying, which is what Jamelia is 349 00:15:56,944 --> 00:15:59,344 Speaker 1: saying here. But it's hard because Liz opens it by saying, 350 00:15:59,384 --> 00:16:02,544 Speaker 1: like Jamila Jamil knows that like not everyone's gonna like her, 351 00:16:02,904 --> 00:16:05,024 Speaker 1: and then she lists like things that she's done that 352 00:16:05,064 --> 00:16:08,304 Speaker 1: are controversies and from a journalist's point of view, like 353 00:16:08,504 --> 00:16:10,304 Speaker 1: not to be completely on thess's side, But I under 354 00:16:10,384 --> 00:16:12,744 Speaker 1: stand because that's the pointiest part of the story. Yeah, 355 00:16:12,744 --> 00:16:15,904 Speaker 1: And the whole point of writing these pieces is to 356 00:16:15,904 --> 00:16:18,824 Speaker 1: come in with the biggest quote and then build out 357 00:16:18,824 --> 00:16:20,624 Speaker 1: a story and then come in with some background and 358 00:16:20,624 --> 00:16:23,864 Speaker 1: then go back in. Whereas Jamal is interpreted, is that 359 00:16:23,904 --> 00:16:25,784 Speaker 1: like you've taken the worst things about me and put 360 00:16:25,824 --> 00:16:28,664 Speaker 1: it at the top, and you're paraphrasing what I'm thinking, 361 00:16:28,704 --> 00:16:31,264 Speaker 1: and you've cut out basically all the activism. 362 00:16:31,544 --> 00:16:31,784 Speaker 2: Yeah. 363 00:16:31,784 --> 00:16:34,944 Speaker 3: And I think also what's important is that Jamila Jamil, 364 00:16:35,104 --> 00:16:39,064 Speaker 3: while she is famous and well known, there are a lot. 365 00:16:38,944 --> 00:16:41,504 Speaker 2: Of people who wouldn't know who she is. 366 00:16:42,024 --> 00:16:44,784 Speaker 3: So I think what Liz is doing is trying to 367 00:16:44,824 --> 00:16:46,624 Speaker 3: paint a picture and give us a little bit of 368 00:16:46,744 --> 00:16:49,824 Speaker 3: history of who she is before going into, yes, an 369 00:16:49,824 --> 00:16:52,504 Speaker 3: in depth interview, which I think is a fair. 370 00:16:52,584 --> 00:16:54,624 Speaker 1: It is fair, But she also didn't do it the 371 00:16:54,624 --> 00:16:56,304 Speaker 1: way that you just did it when you introduced Like 372 00:16:56,344 --> 00:16:58,984 Speaker 1: when you introduced her, you said you gave credit to 373 00:16:59,024 --> 00:17:01,264 Speaker 1: all her different work and things to be fair to Liz, 374 00:17:01,264 --> 00:17:03,104 Speaker 1: like she does do that near the top, but she 375 00:17:03,224 --> 00:17:05,824 Speaker 1: goes in with like, Jamila Jamil knows that you're probably 376 00:17:05,824 --> 00:17:08,224 Speaker 1: not gonna like her kind of vibe. Yeah, So even 377 00:17:08,264 --> 00:17:10,744 Speaker 1: though she did say that interview, she probably said it 378 00:17:10,784 --> 00:17:13,584 Speaker 1: at the end of their like two hour conversation, Whereas 379 00:17:14,184 --> 00:17:16,384 Speaker 1: I understand it's the most interesting thing that she said. 380 00:17:16,384 --> 00:17:18,944 Speaker 1: But I'm sure in Jimilla's eyes, she's not introducing her 381 00:17:18,944 --> 00:17:21,824 Speaker 1: like you just did with her accolades or her credits. 382 00:17:21,824 --> 00:17:25,584 Speaker 1: She's introducing her with this big statement she made, as 383 00:17:26,304 --> 00:17:28,104 Speaker 1: that she meant to be an exclamation mark at the 384 00:17:28,184 --> 00:17:29,704 Speaker 1: end of the story, not the opener. 385 00:17:30,184 --> 00:17:31,424 Speaker 2: She talked a little. 386 00:17:31,224 --> 00:17:35,144 Speaker 3: Bit about how she actually feels like male journalists have 387 00:17:35,224 --> 00:17:38,464 Speaker 3: given her more of a fair shot than women, which 388 00:17:38,544 --> 00:17:39,744 Speaker 3: felt a little bit. 389 00:17:39,624 --> 00:17:43,384 Speaker 2: Pick me for me, right, do you know what I mean? 390 00:17:43,664 --> 00:17:47,024 Speaker 3: Yeah, Which is odd because I actually really like Jamila Jamil. 391 00:17:47,104 --> 00:17:48,504 Speaker 2: I think she has spoken. 392 00:17:48,704 --> 00:17:53,864 Speaker 3: I particularly like her work in eating disorders and bringing 393 00:17:53,984 --> 00:17:58,384 Speaker 3: some light to you know, her anarexia during her teen 394 00:17:58,464 --> 00:18:02,304 Speaker 3: years that I find I really really respect that work 395 00:18:02,304 --> 00:18:05,184 Speaker 3: that she's done, particularly diet culture and things like that. 396 00:18:05,904 --> 00:18:08,384 Speaker 2: But that line, I was like, oh, I don't. I 397 00:18:08,424 --> 00:18:09,144 Speaker 2: don't love that. 398 00:18:09,264 --> 00:18:12,504 Speaker 3: I don't love that, but I also do understand where 399 00:18:12,544 --> 00:18:19,464 Speaker 3: she's coming from. It's like, sometimes I think women, and 400 00:18:19,544 --> 00:18:23,704 Speaker 3: this is what I'm gathering from her experience, they come 401 00:18:23,744 --> 00:18:27,304 Speaker 3: in with this agenda, whereas men are more happy to 402 00:18:27,544 --> 00:18:30,864 Speaker 3: be particularly because they know she's a feminist. Maybe there's 403 00:18:30,864 --> 00:18:34,904 Speaker 3: a bit of fear there to quote unquote challenge her 404 00:18:35,864 --> 00:18:40,464 Speaker 3: on what she's done, whereas women would feel more open 405 00:18:40,544 --> 00:18:42,984 Speaker 3: to being comfortable doing that. 406 00:18:43,504 --> 00:18:46,344 Speaker 2: Exactly where the difference is. 407 00:18:46,344 --> 00:18:47,784 Speaker 1: Yeah, because she does say a bit in the piece 408 00:18:47,824 --> 00:18:50,024 Speaker 1: that she knows that men might have that fear of her, 409 00:18:50,064 --> 00:18:52,064 Speaker 1: and it would be quicker and easier, Like she does 410 00:18:52,104 --> 00:18:55,584 Speaker 1: say this in her substack, for men to be called 411 00:18:55,584 --> 00:18:58,624 Speaker 1: out if they treated her badly at an interview, because 412 00:18:58,664 --> 00:19:00,464 Speaker 1: I think there's something like that can be a little 413 00:19:00,464 --> 00:19:02,264 Speaker 1: bit more black and white. If a man interviewing her 414 00:19:02,384 --> 00:19:04,344 Speaker 1: is like, oh, she talks like this, this and this, 415 00:19:04,464 --> 00:19:06,864 Speaker 1: and that would be a very easy thing for the 416 00:19:06,904 --> 00:19:09,424 Speaker 1: world as a whole to latch onto. But what she 417 00:19:09,464 --> 00:19:11,744 Speaker 1: says is that women are a bit more undefined with 418 00:19:11,784 --> 00:19:14,224 Speaker 1: their critiques. They bury it a little bit. And I 419 00:19:14,264 --> 00:19:17,344 Speaker 1: also think that that's because I don't know, like, do 420 00:19:17,624 --> 00:19:20,064 Speaker 1: women go into these interviews thinking that there's so many 421 00:19:20,104 --> 00:19:21,904 Speaker 1: layers here, and like you're doing a disservice to your 422 00:19:21,904 --> 00:19:24,344 Speaker 1: readers if you don't pull it the layers. Yeah, Liz 423 00:19:24,344 --> 00:19:26,464 Speaker 1: has pointed out some things that she wouldn't have liked, 424 00:19:26,504 --> 00:19:28,904 Speaker 1: including the article, that don't paint her in the best light. 425 00:19:28,984 --> 00:19:31,104 Speaker 1: But there are things like being nice to the waiter, 426 00:19:31,344 --> 00:19:33,504 Speaker 1: or like being nice to the people in the restaurant, 427 00:19:33,584 --> 00:19:36,224 Speaker 1: and you almost think like that should be a positive thing, 428 00:19:36,264 --> 00:19:38,344 Speaker 1: but she's taken it as being like, well, of course 429 00:19:38,384 --> 00:19:40,704 Speaker 1: I would be, why wouldn't I She doesn't like the 430 00:19:40,704 --> 00:19:42,544 Speaker 1: fact that the cost of her house was mentioned in 431 00:19:42,584 --> 00:19:45,504 Speaker 1: the article. I almost think that that is sometimes quite 432 00:19:45,544 --> 00:19:48,784 Speaker 1: important if she's talking about like social injustice and like 433 00:19:49,064 --> 00:19:51,224 Speaker 1: those sorts of things to say, like she's coming from 434 00:19:51,224 --> 00:19:54,184 Speaker 1: this place. But obviously, again that's subjective. I think the 435 00:19:54,224 --> 00:19:56,384 Speaker 1: line that she pulled out that she was quite upset about, 436 00:19:56,384 --> 00:19:58,424 Speaker 1: which is the one time I kind of agree with 437 00:19:58,464 --> 00:20:01,344 Speaker 1: Jamila that it was painting her in this very specific, 438 00:20:01,464 --> 00:20:05,424 Speaker 1: unflattering light, was when she's asking her about well she 439 00:20:05,464 --> 00:20:06,944 Speaker 1: did I was just saying she didn't like all her 440 00:20:07,104 --> 00:20:12,064 Speaker 1: chronic healths listed because she's like, that's twenty years pretty 441 00:20:12,144 --> 00:20:15,984 Speaker 1: much of content of information that she's given listed like that, 442 00:20:16,064 --> 00:20:18,824 Speaker 1: and she's like, it makes me look crazy because if 443 00:20:18,864 --> 00:20:21,704 Speaker 1: you're not across this. One of the biggest stories around 444 00:20:21,824 --> 00:20:23,984 Speaker 1: Jamil and Jamil that used to exist in the dark 445 00:20:24,184 --> 00:20:26,664 Speaker 1: corners of the web that have now sort of been 446 00:20:26,744 --> 00:20:29,144 Speaker 1: talked about a lot in forums and in articles and 447 00:20:29,184 --> 00:20:31,984 Speaker 1: things over the years is that people think she's basically 448 00:20:32,064 --> 00:20:34,784 Speaker 1: lying a lot about a lot of her health conditions. 449 00:20:34,984 --> 00:20:36,784 Speaker 2: Sad ok this narrative so much. 450 00:20:36,944 --> 00:20:39,384 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's and I hate also ha when people say like, no, 451 00:20:39,544 --> 00:20:41,944 Speaker 1: but once you look at it, you'll see she's lying. 452 00:20:41,984 --> 00:20:44,904 Speaker 1: And I'm like, I've looked at it. I don't believe 453 00:20:44,944 --> 00:20:48,144 Speaker 1: she's lying. And also how could you tell well that, 454 00:20:48,584 --> 00:20:49,704 Speaker 1: I mean, I won't go into all of it, but 455 00:20:50,144 --> 00:20:53,304 Speaker 1: people are saying, like, the list of medical conditions she 456 00:20:53,424 --> 00:20:56,384 Speaker 1: says she has sometimes will cancel each other out, or 457 00:20:56,584 --> 00:20:58,504 Speaker 1: they'll say, like, she said she had this, but then 458 00:20:58,544 --> 00:21:00,424 Speaker 1: the next year she said it was this, And then 459 00:21:00,424 --> 00:21:03,344 Speaker 1: they'll also say that these medical conditions can't exist together. 460 00:21:03,424 --> 00:21:06,184 Speaker 1: So basically there are places on the Internet where people 461 00:21:06,264 --> 00:21:10,504 Speaker 1: have like put together like huge presentations tracing everything she 462 00:21:10,544 --> 00:21:12,784 Speaker 1: said about her health for the last twenty years and 463 00:21:12,904 --> 00:21:14,504 Speaker 1: basically saying she's lying. 464 00:21:14,384 --> 00:21:17,184 Speaker 3: Okay, And I really hate this because it's hard enough 465 00:21:17,184 --> 00:21:21,024 Speaker 3: for women to be believed. And we know this, how 466 00:21:21,024 --> 00:21:24,104 Speaker 3: long does it take women with endometrios is to be diagnosed? 467 00:21:24,504 --> 00:21:30,024 Speaker 3: Like we know that women's health concerns are consistently overlooked 468 00:21:30,344 --> 00:21:36,824 Speaker 3: and underprescribed and underrepresented in Like we know that most medical. 469 00:21:36,584 --> 00:21:40,344 Speaker 2: Studies were done on men. Yeah, Like this is very 470 00:21:40,384 --> 00:21:41,384 Speaker 2: well documented. 471 00:21:41,824 --> 00:21:45,104 Speaker 3: So I think it's actually really disrespectful to question her 472 00:21:45,584 --> 00:21:49,704 Speaker 3: on that when she's done nothing but be a very honest, 473 00:21:49,944 --> 00:21:51,944 Speaker 3: open activist. 474 00:21:52,224 --> 00:21:54,464 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, And that's what she said in her substackers 475 00:21:54,464 --> 00:21:56,744 Speaker 1: where she was like, I'm happy for people to talk 476 00:21:56,784 --> 00:21:59,384 Speaker 1: about my past controversies or things I've said that are 477 00:21:59,384 --> 00:22:01,184 Speaker 1: wrong in the past. She's like that, I'm happy to 478 00:22:01,224 --> 00:22:03,504 Speaker 1: wait in on that. But in this particular case, she 479 00:22:03,664 --> 00:22:06,424 Speaker 1: says that Liz asked her a question and she politely 480 00:22:06,424 --> 00:22:10,584 Speaker 1: declined to answer, saying that there's certain areas online like 481 00:22:10,624 --> 00:22:13,304 Speaker 1: online controversies. She doesn't like to give oxygen too because 482 00:22:13,304 --> 00:22:15,864 Speaker 1: then it blows up again. And she said that she 483 00:22:15,984 --> 00:22:18,104 Speaker 1: was very like nice in the moment, and she gave 484 00:22:18,144 --> 00:22:20,864 Speaker 1: Liz some more time, and then in the piece, Liz 485 00:22:20,904 --> 00:22:24,024 Speaker 1: writes that Jamila's PR team tried to jump in and 486 00:22:24,064 --> 00:22:26,624 Speaker 1: stop the interview, and then she said something about once 487 00:22:26,664 --> 00:22:28,664 Speaker 1: it was sort of sordid, and they continued on that 488 00:22:28,784 --> 00:22:32,384 Speaker 1: Jamila's clause retracted and that's people what kind of set 489 00:22:32,384 --> 00:22:35,104 Speaker 1: her off. Yeah, I get that too, because clause retracting 490 00:22:35,104 --> 00:22:36,944 Speaker 1: it it's like it's a line of wanting. I don't know. 491 00:22:37,144 --> 00:22:39,664 Speaker 1: Part of me is like it's like it was good 492 00:22:39,664 --> 00:22:41,904 Speaker 1: writing in terms of like it put you in the moment. 493 00:22:42,104 --> 00:22:45,304 Speaker 1: There was tension, and but I guess I'm coming from it. 494 00:22:45,344 --> 00:22:47,624 Speaker 1: Where Like when I was reading the Sunday Times piece, 495 00:22:47,664 --> 00:22:50,664 Speaker 1: I was so in like this is Liz's interpretation, that 496 00:22:51,144 --> 00:22:53,904 Speaker 1: it didn't color what I think of Jamilla. Yeah, because 497 00:22:54,104 --> 00:22:56,184 Speaker 1: I was so in the mindset of like, this is 498 00:22:56,224 --> 00:22:58,944 Speaker 1: one woman's interpretation of her, Whereas if you're maybe just 499 00:22:58,984 --> 00:23:01,744 Speaker 1: a general punter who's picking up the newspaper, that would 500 00:23:01,744 --> 00:23:03,504 Speaker 1: have made you hate Jamilla. So I kind of understand 501 00:23:03,504 --> 00:23:03,944 Speaker 1: why she was up. 502 00:23:04,064 --> 00:23:05,784 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think the thing is, like, you know, 503 00:23:05,824 --> 00:23:09,384 Speaker 3: she says, she politely declined, but we both know when 504 00:23:09,424 --> 00:23:12,144 Speaker 3: you ask a celebrity something and they politely decline. 505 00:23:12,224 --> 00:23:13,584 Speaker 2: It is a real hit to the ego. 506 00:23:14,544 --> 00:23:16,944 Speaker 1: It does actually like I've had it happen. 507 00:23:16,744 --> 00:23:19,824 Speaker 3: To me before, where I like asked, you know, the publicist, 508 00:23:20,224 --> 00:23:22,344 Speaker 3: is it okay? If I asked this question. I asked 509 00:23:22,344 --> 00:23:26,144 Speaker 3: the question, they shut me down. The publicist jumped in 510 00:23:26,184 --> 00:23:29,264 Speaker 3: and I was like, oh, and then it feels really awkward. 511 00:23:29,304 --> 00:23:31,584 Speaker 3: It like taints the rest of the interview. So I 512 00:23:31,584 --> 00:23:34,664 Speaker 3: can kind of understand if that's where she's like feeling 513 00:23:34,664 --> 00:23:37,664 Speaker 3: that tension, because it does. It feels uncomfortable when someone 514 00:23:38,064 --> 00:23:41,464 Speaker 3: like rejects your advances. And my biggest thing is I 515 00:23:41,464 --> 00:23:44,024 Speaker 3: don't like making people feel uncomfortable when I interview them. 516 00:23:44,064 --> 00:23:46,944 Speaker 3: I want people to feel like open and honest and 517 00:23:47,064 --> 00:23:49,224 Speaker 3: like I am not here to get like gotcha, like 518 00:23:49,264 --> 00:23:54,104 Speaker 3: got your journalism. My vibe never has been. But I 519 00:23:54,144 --> 00:23:58,304 Speaker 3: think probably she's like got her garter. She says no, 520 00:23:58,464 --> 00:24:02,784 Speaker 3: thank you, and this journalist has gone, oh, well fuck you. 521 00:24:02,824 --> 00:24:04,544 Speaker 3: Then I'm going to say you put your claws away. 522 00:24:05,144 --> 00:24:06,504 Speaker 3: It feels a bit again. 523 00:24:06,864 --> 00:24:08,104 Speaker 2: That feels caddy to me. 524 00:24:08,624 --> 00:24:10,984 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it definitely. It was a moment where it 525 00:24:11,024 --> 00:24:12,944 Speaker 1: definitely was a moment where she kind of showed her 526 00:24:13,024 --> 00:24:14,864 Speaker 1: hand of what she was thinking. It is a hard 527 00:24:14,864 --> 00:24:17,624 Speaker 1: thing because when the journalists and a celebrity sit down 528 00:24:17,664 --> 00:24:20,864 Speaker 1: to do an interview, you're sitting down really to almost 529 00:24:20,944 --> 00:24:23,784 Speaker 1: have like as much as sometimes they're lovely and you're lovely, 530 00:24:23,824 --> 00:24:25,384 Speaker 1: Like again, I'm the same. I'm never trying to get 531 00:24:25,424 --> 00:24:27,304 Speaker 1: like a gotcha moment, but I also want a really 532 00:24:27,344 --> 00:24:29,864 Speaker 1: good soundblade, I want a good hook. You're sitting down 533 00:24:29,904 --> 00:24:32,344 Speaker 1: to almost play this game of chess, but you're acting 534 00:24:32,424 --> 00:24:33,424 Speaker 1: like best friends. 535 00:24:33,144 --> 00:24:33,504 Speaker 2: All the time. 536 00:24:33,624 --> 00:24:35,544 Speaker 1: It's like, Hi, how are you? How are you? And 537 00:24:35,584 --> 00:24:38,104 Speaker 1: it's weird because you're both acting you don't know each other. 538 00:24:38,144 --> 00:24:40,344 Speaker 1: It's a weird situation because usually you have about ten 539 00:24:40,384 --> 00:24:43,984 Speaker 1: people watching you, and it's mostly their team that are 540 00:24:43,984 --> 00:24:47,264 Speaker 1: there to protect them. So like as the journalists, you 541 00:24:47,344 --> 00:24:50,144 Speaker 1: feel like you're facing off against ten people, but at 542 00:24:50,144 --> 00:24:52,904 Speaker 1: the same time, they're very aware that you're taking what 543 00:24:52,944 --> 00:24:55,104 Speaker 1: they say and putting it in a public forum. So 544 00:24:55,464 --> 00:24:57,784 Speaker 1: if anyone's gonna be at a loss, it's going to 545 00:24:57,824 --> 00:25:00,704 Speaker 1: be the celebrity. So you have the power in that way, 546 00:25:00,744 --> 00:25:02,584 Speaker 1: and you're sitting there and you're having this dance back 547 00:25:02,624 --> 00:25:04,784 Speaker 1: and forth of like how much I'll give you what 548 00:25:04,824 --> 00:25:06,984 Speaker 1: I'm going to say, can I trick you into this? 549 00:25:07,464 --> 00:25:10,264 Speaker 1: That sort of back and forth, and so it is 550 00:25:10,584 --> 00:25:13,104 Speaker 1: really it's such an unnatural, weird situation to be in, 551 00:25:13,144 --> 00:25:15,504 Speaker 1: and it's always formed as like we had a chat. 552 00:25:15,824 --> 00:25:19,944 Speaker 1: I'm like, this isn't a chat. This is a battlefield. 553 00:25:20,384 --> 00:25:23,264 Speaker 3: Jamilla is not the first person to complain. I don't 554 00:25:23,264 --> 00:25:25,304 Speaker 3: want to say complain because I think that sounds whiny 555 00:25:25,344 --> 00:25:27,744 Speaker 3: and bitchy. This is she's not the first person to, 556 00:25:28,424 --> 00:25:32,064 Speaker 3: you know, critique some of these profile pieces. We've had 557 00:25:32,064 --> 00:25:35,224 Speaker 3: a number of other celebrities who have critiqued these profile pieces. Now, 558 00:25:36,584 --> 00:25:39,864 Speaker 3: to be clear, we're talking about written profile pieces, usually 559 00:25:39,904 --> 00:25:44,544 Speaker 3: those like long ones like Vanity Fair, Vogue, sort of 560 00:25:44,544 --> 00:25:47,104 Speaker 3: the primary ones where you think about these like big 561 00:25:47,504 --> 00:25:49,104 Speaker 3: profile pieces. 562 00:25:48,664 --> 00:25:50,144 Speaker 1: Because they're the ones that are not just the Q 563 00:25:50,304 --> 00:25:52,704 Speaker 1: and A or anything like that. They're the one, as 564 00:25:52,704 --> 00:25:55,224 Speaker 1: we were saying, where the journalist puts their interpretation and 565 00:25:55,264 --> 00:25:56,864 Speaker 1: their thoughts. And I met. 566 00:25:56,744 --> 00:26:02,304 Speaker 3: Jamilla at a cafe based downtown in Los Angeles. She 567 00:26:02,624 --> 00:26:06,624 Speaker 3: ordered a macho latte. I ordered the coffee you can 568 00:26:06,824 --> 00:26:07,544 Speaker 3: picture it in. 569 00:26:07,624 --> 00:26:10,704 Speaker 1: Sometimes I like, my favorite thing is and also I've 570 00:26:10,704 --> 00:26:13,744 Speaker 1: done this, I know. I'm also like a person who's 571 00:26:14,024 --> 00:26:16,464 Speaker 1: you know, I'm not innocent here, but I love almost 572 00:26:16,504 --> 00:26:18,864 Speaker 1: writing intro before I go read these big profiles in 573 00:26:18,904 --> 00:26:20,744 Speaker 1: my head, because I'll be like blah blah blah like 574 00:26:20,784 --> 00:26:24,464 Speaker 1: Sophie Turana, like strodes into the cafe. She's tried to 575 00:26:24,464 --> 00:26:27,464 Speaker 1: look casual, but her blonde curls are cascading down her back. 576 00:26:27,624 --> 00:26:31,064 Speaker 1: She sits down at a table and adjust her mohair 577 00:26:31,144 --> 00:26:33,784 Speaker 1: white sweater, looking older than her twenty five. It just 578 00:26:33,784 --> 00:26:36,704 Speaker 1: go and then with just a beaming smile to the waiter, 579 00:26:36,784 --> 00:26:38,984 Speaker 1: she orders a chill glass of water. One slice, and 580 00:26:38,984 --> 00:26:40,224 Speaker 1: you're just like, oh my, like this. 581 00:26:40,344 --> 00:26:44,824 Speaker 3: I know those actually give me like the ick that 582 00:26:45,344 --> 00:26:49,104 Speaker 3: of them too much color. I'm like, this is but again, 583 00:26:49,144 --> 00:26:51,024 Speaker 3: that's not the kind of journalism that I've done. 584 00:26:50,824 --> 00:26:52,584 Speaker 2: A lot of. I know you've done a lot of these. 585 00:26:52,464 --> 00:26:55,624 Speaker 3: Profile paces, these written profile pieces. I haven't done a 586 00:26:55,664 --> 00:26:57,184 Speaker 3: lot of the written ones. A lot of the stuff 587 00:26:57,224 --> 00:27:00,744 Speaker 3: that I do is you know, on camera. Yeah, you 588 00:27:00,784 --> 00:27:03,384 Speaker 3: know a few like shorter writing pieces, but there's like 589 00:27:03,464 --> 00:27:06,944 Speaker 3: really in depth, like New Yorker profiles things like that. 590 00:27:07,624 --> 00:27:09,544 Speaker 3: I do find it a bit cringe when it's like 591 00:27:09,544 --> 00:27:12,944 Speaker 3: like the heck one, the other day. Yeah, like yeah, 592 00:27:12,984 --> 00:27:15,304 Speaker 3: the Hailey baby one we met at a cafe and 593 00:27:15,344 --> 00:27:17,464 Speaker 3: she swept her clean. 594 00:27:17,304 --> 00:27:18,424 Speaker 1: Girl look like yeah. 595 00:27:18,464 --> 00:27:20,104 Speaker 2: It's like, ugh, like pandering. 596 00:27:20,224 --> 00:27:22,304 Speaker 1: And it's like when they go to it's also when 597 00:27:22,304 --> 00:27:25,304 Speaker 1: they go like they start writing them like it's a 598 00:27:25,384 --> 00:27:27,544 Speaker 1: like a Sweet Valley High novel or something like that 599 00:27:27,584 --> 00:27:30,544 Speaker 1: where they're like, blah blah blah, tossed her tossled blonde 600 00:27:30,544 --> 00:27:33,144 Speaker 1: curls and stared into the sun. You're like, that's that's 601 00:27:33,184 --> 00:27:35,384 Speaker 1: not how real people move about in the world. When 602 00:27:35,384 --> 00:27:37,664 Speaker 1: it is good is when like maybe I'm just Sophie 603 00:27:37,704 --> 00:27:39,664 Speaker 1: Turner's in my head. But when she was at the 604 00:27:39,744 --> 00:27:41,624 Speaker 1: zoo with the writer and she called up the zoo 605 00:27:41,664 --> 00:27:44,304 Speaker 1: keeper for being sexist, for one of the animals not 606 00:27:44,384 --> 00:27:48,344 Speaker 1: being like given respect because she's a mother, Like this 607 00:27:48,384 --> 00:27:50,824 Speaker 1: is journalism. Yeah, this is what I want. I want 608 00:27:50,904 --> 00:27:53,864 Speaker 1: ten thousand words on that interaction. I also find it 609 00:27:53,904 --> 00:27:56,904 Speaker 1: interesting sometimes when I it's always interesting when you're doing 610 00:27:56,944 --> 00:27:58,704 Speaker 1: like a longer into the celebrity and you can tell 611 00:27:58,704 --> 00:28:01,304 Speaker 1: that they're really nervous, even if they're really famous. I 612 00:28:01,304 --> 00:28:03,424 Speaker 1: find that strange. When I sit down, I'm like, why 613 00:28:03,424 --> 00:28:06,104 Speaker 1: are you nervous? Everyone loves you. But then sometimes you 614 00:28:06,184 --> 00:28:08,824 Speaker 1: hear celebrities tell the other side, like especially when they've 615 00:28:08,824 --> 00:28:11,344 Speaker 1: got to take the journalists out for a day because 616 00:28:11,824 --> 00:28:13,904 Speaker 1: they've got a planet, which I think is so funny. 617 00:28:14,384 --> 00:28:16,264 Speaker 1: Maybe the celebrities and do it or their team does it, 618 00:28:16,304 --> 00:28:18,664 Speaker 1: but like the celebrity has to like plan the day 619 00:28:18,704 --> 00:28:20,584 Speaker 1: and plan the outings, and the idea is that they 620 00:28:20,624 --> 00:28:22,984 Speaker 1: take a journalist to things they want to do. So 621 00:28:23,264 --> 00:28:25,144 Speaker 1: then you're like, Okay, what can I do that's going 622 00:28:25,184 --> 00:28:26,864 Speaker 1: to paint me in a great light because they're going 623 00:28:26,904 --> 00:28:28,864 Speaker 1: to be recording everything I'm saying, They're going to be 624 00:28:28,864 --> 00:28:30,824 Speaker 1: writing about what I'm doing. So it has to be 625 00:28:30,864 --> 00:28:33,264 Speaker 1: something fun. It has to be something interactive, it has 626 00:28:33,264 --> 00:28:35,024 Speaker 1: to be something we can still talk, and it has 627 00:28:35,064 --> 00:28:37,184 Speaker 1: to be something not crazy, like come on my private jet, 628 00:28:37,224 --> 00:28:39,664 Speaker 1: unless you're Rihana who sends like a private car at 629 00:28:39,664 --> 00:28:41,664 Speaker 1: three am to bring you to the studio. But I 630 00:28:41,664 --> 00:28:44,104 Speaker 1: remember Christian Stewart saying that she was like never being 631 00:28:44,104 --> 00:28:46,384 Speaker 1: so terrified as when she was doing a profile. And 632 00:28:46,424 --> 00:28:49,904 Speaker 1: she's a very avid golfer, so she took the journalist's 633 00:28:49,944 --> 00:28:52,384 Speaker 1: golfing with her, thinking that would be like it would 634 00:28:52,384 --> 00:28:54,264 Speaker 1: be nice and easy because they could talk and like 635 00:28:54,464 --> 00:28:57,424 Speaker 1: she was doing something she felt comfortable doing. But then 636 00:28:57,464 --> 00:28:59,664 Speaker 1: she was so of her golf game that day and 637 00:28:59,704 --> 00:29:01,624 Speaker 1: she was so nervous and in her head she was like, 638 00:29:01,824 --> 00:29:03,224 Speaker 1: you have to do this, like you have to hit 639 00:29:03,224 --> 00:29:05,224 Speaker 1: the ball. You cannot, Like she's watching you, She's gonna 640 00:29:05,224 --> 00:29:07,184 Speaker 1: write down that you missed it. And I that was 641 00:29:07,224 --> 00:29:09,824 Speaker 1: just so funny of like the stress of hosting a celebrity. 642 00:29:10,104 --> 00:29:13,384 Speaker 1: It's also why so many celebrities went through a phase 643 00:29:13,424 --> 00:29:16,104 Speaker 1: of taking the journalist to pottery classes. Do you remem 644 00:29:16,104 --> 00:29:17,864 Speaker 1: that was a huge thing. Yeah, because you kind of 645 00:29:17,864 --> 00:29:20,264 Speaker 1: sit together and like, I guess, do the pot and 646 00:29:20,304 --> 00:29:22,744 Speaker 1: it would kind of turn out fine. But Busy Phillips 647 00:29:22,784 --> 00:29:24,144 Speaker 1: was also saying that when she had to take New 648 00:29:24,224 --> 00:29:26,064 Speaker 1: York writer around, she took her to pottery, and then 649 00:29:26,064 --> 00:29:28,304 Speaker 1: she realized every other actress was doing the pottery thing 650 00:29:28,304 --> 00:29:30,944 Speaker 1: with journalists. Yeah, because she was like, the weird thing 651 00:29:31,024 --> 00:29:33,144 Speaker 1: is none of us do pottery in our own time. 652 00:29:33,304 --> 00:29:36,144 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think I think the fear from it 653 00:29:36,184 --> 00:29:39,184 Speaker 3: because it's not just about what they've actually said. Yeah, 654 00:29:39,384 --> 00:29:42,944 Speaker 3: it's observations people make about you, the way you sit, 655 00:29:43,064 --> 00:29:45,864 Speaker 3: the what you order to eat. Everything is scrutinized, and 656 00:29:45,904 --> 00:29:47,304 Speaker 3: I think that that's quite scary. 657 00:29:47,904 --> 00:29:48,104 Speaker 1: You know. 658 00:29:48,304 --> 00:29:51,904 Speaker 3: Again, Lena Dunham, who is also quite a divisive figure, 659 00:29:51,984 --> 00:29:55,704 Speaker 3: but you know, said Vogue was so focused on her 660 00:29:55,824 --> 00:29:59,184 Speaker 3: body that they didn't really talk about her other you know, 661 00:29:59,264 --> 00:30:01,424 Speaker 3: accolades that she's had, Like. 662 00:30:01,344 --> 00:30:04,144 Speaker 2: This is do you know what's interesting though? It's all women? 663 00:30:04,824 --> 00:30:07,384 Speaker 1: Yeah, because they're the ones. It's women into me other 664 00:30:07,424 --> 00:30:09,904 Speaker 1: women because and I was thinking about this as we 665 00:30:09,904 --> 00:30:11,944 Speaker 1: were coming in, and like why does this happen more 666 00:30:11,944 --> 00:30:14,184 Speaker 1: with women interviewing other women? And also why do when 667 00:30:14,224 --> 00:30:16,864 Speaker 1: I go into an interview the other famous woman, I 668 00:30:16,904 --> 00:30:20,024 Speaker 1: feel more pressure, especially if she's outspoken on a topic. 669 00:30:20,384 --> 00:30:22,984 Speaker 1: And I think it's because this is like, this is 670 00:30:22,984 --> 00:30:25,264 Speaker 1: like our playing field. Like if that journalist is going 671 00:30:25,304 --> 00:30:27,944 Speaker 1: into interview Jamila Jamil, I would almost feel the same 672 00:30:27,984 --> 00:30:30,824 Speaker 1: way of like the men coming into interview you, they're 673 00:30:30,824 --> 00:30:32,664 Speaker 1: not they don't live in the weeds of what you're 674 00:30:32,664 --> 00:30:35,344 Speaker 1: talking about like we do. They're talking about things we 675 00:30:35,384 --> 00:30:37,264 Speaker 1: talk about with our friends, things that we're facing in 676 00:30:37,264 --> 00:30:40,744 Speaker 1: our own lives on a different level. But like body image, misogyny, 677 00:30:41,144 --> 00:30:43,864 Speaker 1: things in the workplace, even with some people like balancing 678 00:30:43,984 --> 00:30:46,584 Speaker 1: like work and motherhood and fame and like career and 679 00:30:46,624 --> 00:30:48,624 Speaker 1: all these sorts of things, and like how you get 680 00:30:48,624 --> 00:30:50,744 Speaker 1: treated because of the way you look and all these things. 681 00:30:50,944 --> 00:30:53,224 Speaker 1: And I just think men coming into that like they 682 00:30:53,264 --> 00:30:55,704 Speaker 1: know it exists, but it's not their world. Whereas like 683 00:30:55,704 --> 00:30:57,944 Speaker 1: if I was going in to interview Jamila, I would 684 00:30:57,944 --> 00:30:59,544 Speaker 1: be like, I have to get the right answers. I 685 00:30:59,584 --> 00:31:01,944 Speaker 1: also have to know when they're deflecting, because this is 686 00:31:01,984 --> 00:31:04,104 Speaker 1: like my arena, this is where I live, this is 687 00:31:04,144 --> 00:31:05,984 Speaker 1: what my friends and I talk about. So it's like 688 00:31:06,264 --> 00:31:08,544 Speaker 1: the stakes are higher, so you go in wanting to 689 00:31:08,624 --> 00:31:11,384 Speaker 1: get a bigger answer. So I don't know. I'm sure 690 00:31:11,384 --> 00:31:14,784 Speaker 1: half these writers weren't trying to be calculating or anything 691 00:31:14,864 --> 00:31:17,384 Speaker 1: like that, but they just went in knowing these women 692 00:31:17,544 --> 00:31:19,904 Speaker 1: talk on this and they're correct, but they also talk 693 00:31:19,984 --> 00:31:22,664 Speaker 1: on this and they they're not always correct or there's 694 00:31:22,664 --> 00:31:26,104 Speaker 1: some issues with how they put these thoughts into the world. 695 00:31:26,224 --> 00:31:28,704 Speaker 1: And I'm a woman into uing them for an audience 696 00:31:28,744 --> 00:31:31,024 Speaker 1: of predominantly women, and I've got to like do this 697 00:31:31,064 --> 00:31:32,744 Speaker 1: for the team at home who's going to be reading 698 00:31:32,744 --> 00:31:33,384 Speaker 1: these words. 699 00:31:34,024 --> 00:31:38,264 Speaker 3: Yeah, look, I at the end of it, I understand 700 00:31:39,784 --> 00:31:41,584 Speaker 3: I've had a profile piece down on me and I 701 00:31:41,624 --> 00:31:44,504 Speaker 3: remember the one quote that for the headline, and I 702 00:31:44,544 --> 00:31:45,744 Speaker 3: was like, really. 703 00:31:45,944 --> 00:31:46,824 Speaker 1: Oh do you remember it? 704 00:31:46,864 --> 00:31:47,944 Speaker 2: Was? I do? 705 00:31:48,384 --> 00:31:48,624 Speaker 1: I do? 706 00:31:49,424 --> 00:31:52,024 Speaker 3: It was its basically the whole interview was on like 707 00:31:52,104 --> 00:31:53,504 Speaker 3: the work that I've done at a and it was 708 00:31:53,624 --> 00:31:55,904 Speaker 3: like chatting Tatum is a bit smarming, and that was 709 00:31:55,944 --> 00:31:57,104 Speaker 3: what they used as the headline. 710 00:31:57,464 --> 00:31:59,344 Speaker 1: Oh, I know, that's hard. That's the kind of thing. 711 00:31:59,344 --> 00:32:01,024 Speaker 1: I would probably do it earlier in my career, but 712 00:32:01,024 --> 00:32:03,304 Speaker 1: I wouldn't do now. But again I understand because you're like, 713 00:32:03,424 --> 00:32:04,384 Speaker 1: that's such a good quote. 714 00:32:04,384 --> 00:32:06,664 Speaker 2: It's a great as a journal by myself. 715 00:32:06,744 --> 00:32:10,064 Speaker 1: I get why they's not encompassing what you said in 716 00:32:10,104 --> 00:32:11,024 Speaker 1: the into grabbing. 717 00:32:11,024 --> 00:32:12,664 Speaker 3: But it was this one thing because you know how 718 00:32:12,704 --> 00:32:13,984 Speaker 3: people always ask who's the worst? 719 00:32:14,864 --> 00:32:15,464 Speaker 1: The one question? 720 00:32:15,544 --> 00:32:16,704 Speaker 2: And it was like that one thing. 721 00:32:16,744 --> 00:32:19,144 Speaker 3: And I usually try not to say anything negative about 722 00:32:19,144 --> 00:32:21,784 Speaker 3: people because again I don't like to judge if it's 723 00:32:21,984 --> 00:32:23,624 Speaker 3: unless I've done it multiple times. 724 00:32:23,344 --> 00:32:25,184 Speaker 2: With them, because people can have an off date. 725 00:32:25,264 --> 00:32:28,344 Speaker 3: Yeah, I said, chanting Tatum is a bit smiley, and 726 00:32:28,464 --> 00:32:29,424 Speaker 3: it was the headline. 727 00:32:29,784 --> 00:32:32,664 Speaker 1: I mean, the headlines are mean, That's why I get it, 728 00:32:32,704 --> 00:32:35,304 Speaker 1: But like it's it is hard because you're just like 729 00:32:35,704 --> 00:32:37,704 Speaker 1: you could have let off something and like you could 730 00:32:37,704 --> 00:32:39,424 Speaker 1: have had a different headline and just had that in 731 00:32:39,464 --> 00:32:40,824 Speaker 1: the piece and it still would have hit. 732 00:32:40,864 --> 00:32:44,144 Speaker 3: But the heart why they did it. I understand why 733 00:32:44,144 --> 00:32:46,264 Speaker 3: they did it because that is the grab. That is 734 00:32:46,304 --> 00:32:47,864 Speaker 3: the bit that people are going He's going to get 735 00:32:47,864 --> 00:32:49,424 Speaker 3: people in because people don't know who I am. 736 00:32:49,584 --> 00:32:51,424 Speaker 1: They want to know. I mean people do. But also 737 00:32:51,504 --> 00:32:54,424 Speaker 1: like nothing gets people in faster than any celebrity doing 738 00:32:54,464 --> 00:32:57,424 Speaker 1: something wrong. Yeah, or like they beloved celebrity. 739 00:32:57,024 --> 00:32:58,824 Speaker 3: Someone you're going to like say something negative about it. 740 00:32:58,864 --> 00:33:00,184 Speaker 3: That's what they're going to pick up on. I should 741 00:33:00,224 --> 00:33:00,944 Speaker 3: have done that. 742 00:33:00,984 --> 00:33:02,504 Speaker 1: I know, But you want to answer in the moment. 743 00:33:02,584 --> 00:33:05,424 Speaker 1: And then you also, like if you're being profiled or 744 00:33:05,424 --> 00:33:07,864 Speaker 1: you're spent or you're doing a long interview, also you're 745 00:33:07,864 --> 00:33:09,864 Speaker 1: giving so much content you might not think about the 746 00:33:09,904 --> 00:33:12,744 Speaker 1: fact that it's going to be that one comment. But yeah, 747 00:33:12,784 --> 00:33:14,864 Speaker 1: I really get it. And what I also thought was 748 00:33:14,864 --> 00:33:17,664 Speaker 1: interesting about the Jamilla piece is that she says in 749 00:33:17,704 --> 00:33:20,624 Speaker 1: there that one of the reasons she's not doing profiles 750 00:33:20,624 --> 00:33:24,744 Speaker 1: with women anymore is because she's becoming more powerful than 751 00:33:24,784 --> 00:33:27,424 Speaker 1: traditional media, which I thought was quite interesting. 752 00:33:27,624 --> 00:33:29,064 Speaker 2: Well, I mean this is she said. 753 00:33:29,104 --> 00:33:31,264 Speaker 3: That's why she put it on substack and removed the 754 00:33:31,304 --> 00:33:34,264 Speaker 3: paywall for the article because she wanted it as many 755 00:33:34,264 --> 00:33:36,704 Speaker 3: people to read it as possible. And I think it's 756 00:33:36,784 --> 00:33:40,424 Speaker 3: quite possible that this particular article that she wrote will 757 00:33:40,424 --> 00:33:45,024 Speaker 3: have more engagement than the actual article that was printed 758 00:33:45,064 --> 00:33:48,984 Speaker 3: about her. I mean, at time of recording, we're already 759 00:33:49,024 --> 00:33:51,744 Speaker 3: at like, she's got over four hundred comments about this, 760 00:33:52,544 --> 00:33:55,424 Speaker 3: there's over three thousand likes on it. She also said 761 00:33:55,544 --> 00:33:58,224 Speaker 3: in the comment section. For whatever it's worth, we contacted 762 00:33:58,264 --> 00:34:01,024 Speaker 3: her told her how I felt, no apology, no retraction, 763 00:34:01,144 --> 00:34:04,464 Speaker 3: no action, humanity is worth less than clickbait. 764 00:34:04,544 --> 00:34:06,624 Speaker 2: I guess, yeah, that's. 765 00:34:06,424 --> 00:34:08,384 Speaker 1: A hard one because in one point, I understand what 766 00:34:08,424 --> 00:34:10,784 Speaker 1: Jamila is saying of being like, I'm stopping doing this 767 00:34:10,904 --> 00:34:14,264 Speaker 1: because if obviously, traditionally, like if you wanted to reach 768 00:34:14,304 --> 00:34:16,984 Speaker 1: a massive amount of people, you went to traditional media, 769 00:34:17,464 --> 00:34:20,864 Speaker 1: and now celebrities have their own kind of a media empire, 770 00:34:20,904 --> 00:34:23,344 Speaker 1: Like obviously she has a substack, she has a podcast 771 00:34:23,384 --> 00:34:26,544 Speaker 1: which she's not recording but is still active. All these things, 772 00:34:26,624 --> 00:34:29,344 Speaker 1: but you don't need you can get your message out 773 00:34:29,344 --> 00:34:31,544 Speaker 1: there without having to rely on traditional media. So I 774 00:34:31,584 --> 00:34:33,864 Speaker 1: understand that. I also don't think that Sunday Time should 775 00:34:33,864 --> 00:34:37,504 Speaker 1: have retracted the piece because it's not incorrect? Is the thing? 776 00:34:37,744 --> 00:34:37,864 Speaker 3: Like? 777 00:34:37,904 --> 00:34:40,384 Speaker 1: That's I went through the subtect. I'm like I thought, 778 00:34:40,424 --> 00:34:41,944 Speaker 1: before I make a judgment on this, I'm just going 779 00:34:41,984 --> 00:34:43,904 Speaker 1: to see if anything that she said in there is 780 00:34:44,304 --> 00:34:47,624 Speaker 1: false or not correct. But it's just that she hasn't 781 00:34:47,704 --> 00:34:49,824 Speaker 1: liked the bits that are again, which is fair, but 782 00:34:50,104 --> 00:34:53,904 Speaker 1: it's not incorrect information. It's just she doesn't agree with 783 00:34:53,984 --> 00:34:56,304 Speaker 1: the bits that were chosen and with the interpretation. But 784 00:34:56,664 --> 00:34:58,624 Speaker 1: you can't retract that because it's not incorrect. 785 00:34:58,704 --> 00:35:03,264 Speaker 3: Well, exactly exactly, and I it's a really tricky one. 786 00:35:03,384 --> 00:35:05,224 Speaker 3: We'll link the substack in our show notes if you 787 00:35:05,224 --> 00:35:06,704 Speaker 3: guys want to go have a read of it again, 788 00:35:06,784 --> 00:35:07,864 Speaker 3: it's not behind a paywall. 789 00:35:07,944 --> 00:35:09,984 Speaker 2: You can read it. It's an interesting rate, it's a 790 00:35:10,024 --> 00:35:11,024 Speaker 2: big Yeah. 791 00:35:11,064 --> 00:35:13,024 Speaker 1: I would say read the whole thing though, give you 792 00:35:13,024 --> 00:35:14,264 Speaker 1: a lot of information you get. 793 00:35:14,104 --> 00:35:15,184 Speaker 2: Through all the context of it. 794 00:35:15,504 --> 00:35:18,984 Speaker 3: Yeah, a very interesting pace by Jamila Joel. 795 00:35:20,264 --> 00:35:22,664 Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for listening to this spill today. 796 00:35:22,904 --> 00:35:25,784 Speaker 1: As always, make sure you pop over to our Instagram 797 00:35:25,864 --> 00:35:28,544 Speaker 1: account and TikTok with a spill on both to catch 798 00:35:28,584 --> 00:35:31,384 Speaker 1: all of our extra content. And The Spill is produced 799 00:35:31,384 --> 00:35:35,024 Speaker 1: by Minitia Isswarren with sound production by Scott Stronik Mama 800 00:35:35,064 --> 00:35:37,864 Speaker 1: MIAs Studios a style with furniture from Fenton and Fenton. 801 00:35:38,264 --> 00:35:41,184 Speaker 1: Visit Fenton and Fenton dot com dot au and we'll 802 00:35:41,184 --> 00:35:43,224 Speaker 1: see you back here on your podcast feed at three 803 00:35:43,344 --> 00:35:45,144 Speaker 1: pm tomorrow. Bye bye