Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia out Loud and to our Friday show. It's
Speaker 2: the show where we step out of the news cycle
Speaker 2: and talk about stuff that has nothing to do with
Speaker 2: all that. Today it's Friday, the twenty fifth of October,
Speaker 2: and I am Holly Wainwright.
Speaker 3: I am Jesse Stephens, and I'm m Venam.
Speaker 4: I normally co host our daily entertainment podcast, The Spill,
Speaker 4: but today I have a record that I really wanted
Speaker 4: to share with you, so I kicked me off.
Speaker 2: Welcome EM on today's show. Do you have a friend
Speaker 2: that you love but somehow they never ever make your
Speaker 2: Instagram grid? Are you that friend? Yes, you know what
Speaker 2: I'm talking about. Welcome to the new politics of social
Speaker 2: media friendship. Also the most ridiculously wonderful TV show of
Speaker 2: the year, an interview that made Jesse Stephens swoon, and
Speaker 2: EM's twenty minute face re team It's recommendations and our
Speaker 2: bests of worths of the week include revealing riding mistakes
Speaker 2: and Stephens's accolade and sitting down. But first, Jesse Stevens
Speaker 2: be my shean.
Speaker 3: Came in today and so I'm going to do a hall.
Speaker 3: It's like summer stuff, but literally came in four ds.
Speaker 4: Very big shopping holl.
Speaker 3: L had to do it, y'all.
Speaker 4: I just got a new H and M order, so
Speaker 4: let's open it and try it on together.
Speaker 3: I don't even know where to start.
Speaker 5: In case you missed it, the TikTok shopping hall has
Speaker 5: turned young shoppers into what has been termed serial returners,
Speaker 5: which is seriously affecting retail profitability. So this was in
Speaker 5: a report from the Telegraph UK this week and it
Speaker 5: was revealed that gen Z's are sending back almost seven
Speaker 5: million pounds worth of items a year. Why are they
Speaker 5: doing this? Because of the surgeon popularity in the clothing
Speaker 5: hall whereby you buy a bunch of clothes. Some of
Speaker 5: them are actually the same items, but they're in different colors, sizes,
Speaker 5: and you try them on on TikTok, so you get
Speaker 5: a big bag. I've seen this and like they tried on,
Speaker 5: They're like should I keep this?
Speaker 1: I not?
Speaker 5: And then whatever you don't want you just send it
Speaker 5: all back. So why is that a problem? Well, it's
Speaker 5: putting an unprecedented strain on retailers. According to Richard Limb,
Speaker 5: who's the chief executive of Retail Economics, someone has to
Speaker 5: process all of these returns. ASOS said last year that
Speaker 5: frequent returners were costing them six pounds per order. What's that, Holly,
Speaker 5: twelve dollars. Twelve dollars pretty much with some of those
Speaker 5: customers ordering two or three times a month and then
Speaker 5: returning ninety percent of what they received. Ninety percent is
Speaker 5: what they're returning. M Are you a serial returner? You're young,
Speaker 5: You're cue.
Speaker 4: I used to be a serial returner. When I was younger,
Speaker 4: I would buy like I would usually be with pants
Speaker 4: and jeans because I'm like a different size in every
Speaker 4: gene and I love online shopping, so I'd buy like
Speaker 4: jeans that were different sizes, like a size a same gene,
Speaker 4: size eight ten, going there a shin No, that's a
Speaker 4: whole other convention.
Speaker 2: But I stopped.
Speaker 4: I stopped doing this because a few years ago I
Speaker 4: actually interviewed New South Wales Young Australian of the Year
Speaker 4: Lotty dl. She was a sustainability educator and she taught
Speaker 4: me about bracketing. Have you heard about this, Yeoh, So
Speaker 4: racketing is labeled as fashions hidden returns problem, and it
Speaker 4: shows that the chances of the clothes being returned very
Speaker 4: rarely do they end up back on the shelves, and
Speaker 4: I think it's because of this economic stuff. So firstly
Speaker 4: with carbon, like you're creating carbon by getting the packages
Speaker 4: sent to you creating carbon by delivering it back. But
Speaker 4: it also with some brands, depending on the brand and
Speaker 4: the value of the clothes, it sometimes costs them less
Speaker 4: to send it to landfill rather than repackaging, washing, resealing,
Speaker 4: putting it back on the website and selling it again.
Speaker 5: Oh my god, I've heard that it is like less
Speaker 5: than fifty percent get back on so it can take
Speaker 5: a long time. So even it's kind of like maybe
Speaker 5: they're not even selling it by the time you get
Speaker 5: back with a lot of the really fast fashion ones.
Speaker 5: And then even if they do resell it, it's like
Speaker 5: they take the plastic away, they put it in new plastic,
Speaker 5: and then yeah, once you put it in a truck
Speaker 5: and a blar and a bla. They've gotten better at
Speaker 5: the sustainability of sending it out, but they've not gotten
Speaker 5: better at the sustainability of sending it back.
Speaker 2: I have so many questions because sending anything back is
Speaker 2: my worst night. There are things in my wardrobe that
Speaker 2: I should have sent back, like shoes that don't quite fit.
Speaker 2: But just the process, like the admin involved in like repackaging,
Speaker 2: go to the post office, da da da da dah,
Speaker 2: Like why don't they they wouldn't it be easier to
Speaker 2: just go to a shop and walk into a chaine
Speaker 2: room and try on three pairs of jeans.
Speaker 4: No, because then sometimes when you've had LUNs, you can't
Speaker 4: try jeans and you need to wait until you get
Speaker 4: your package. You get your package and then you're like, okay,
Speaker 4: now it's a good time to try these jeans on.
Speaker 4: I also think it's because a lot of brands now
Speaker 4: are doing free returns, so they made it quite well.
Speaker 2: They know because they know that this is a thing.
Speaker 5: And really and really long, like sometimes it's a month
Speaker 5: or two months that you've got to re which is
Speaker 5: really good.
Speaker 4: So on the like TikTok's side, like you're saying that
Speaker 4: we're costing you a lot, but then you're making it
Speaker 4: really cheap for us to do it.
Speaker 5: Which is do it clearly because it's such a pool
Speaker 5: for the consumer. Like I won't buy something online if
Speaker 5: that's not returns. Yeah, right, and especially I check for
Speaker 5: free returns because that is like so appealing to me.
Speaker 5: But I went into a post office recently to.
Speaker 3: Pick up a package.
Speaker 5: Don't even get me started on having to go to
Speaker 5: a post office to pick something up. But I was
Speaker 5: in there, all young women, all with bags. I just went,
Speaker 5: this is so interesting because young people weren't in.
Speaker 3: The post office ten years ago.
Speaker 5: I swear Australia post was like, what are we going
Speaker 5: to do now that email's here?
Speaker 3: And then young women were like, We've got you, We
Speaker 3: have got you.
Speaker 2: Who appears the most on your Instagram feed or your
Speaker 2: Facebook timeline? Even? Is it your buddies, your parents, your babies,
Speaker 2: your pets? Is it you? In a date book of
Speaker 2: birthday dinners, work promotions and assorted life lately updates? Do
Speaker 2: you post more or less about the people you like
Speaker 2: the most or about the people you'd like others to
Speaker 2: think you like the most? I think the answer to
Speaker 2: these questions varies depending on your age, your job, your
Speaker 2: life stage. But what I'd never considered until this very morning,
Speaker 2: when Emily Vernon brought it up to me, is that
Speaker 2: there might be a person or people in my life
Speaker 2: and yours who are offended that they're not on your
Speaker 2: grid more or at all. M tell me about the
Speaker 2: secret Mistress friend.
Speaker 4: So I came across this TikTok by this user named Lucy,
Speaker 4: and there was a piece to camera and she seemed
Speaker 4: a bit upset. She said, that is anyone else the
Speaker 4: secret Mistress friend?
Speaker 6: I'm the one that will do all the emotional regulation
Speaker 6: and do all of the therapy sessions and be there
Speaker 6: twenty four fucking seven, but then not post about, not mentioned,
Speaker 6: no fucking birthday.
Speaker 4: Things, nothing, And it feels like that she's living in
Speaker 4: like the secret compartment of their life, like she's a mistress.
Speaker 2: Like secret sector. Remember that episode, you know the how everything.
Speaker 2: Obviously I have to bring back to an episode of
Speaker 2: Sex and the City, because because I do secret sex,
Speaker 2: was this episode where it was people who you were
Speaker 2: in a relationship with. I bet you would have some
Speaker 2: stories about this to him, but you're not ready for
Speaker 2: anyone to know that you are yet. So it's like
Speaker 2: and sometimes it's you who's the secret sex and you
Speaker 2: find that they're taking you to a restaurant that's like
Speaker 2: really out of the way where they know they're not
Speaker 2: going to see anyone they know. It's almost like the
Speaker 2: modern day friendship equivalent of that. But here's what I
Speaker 2: didn't understand, because one of the things that I thought
Speaker 2: is that if I'm out for dinner with my girlfriends
Speaker 2: and we're having a really nice night, I don't post
Speaker 2: about that. That's not the kind of thing I post about.
Speaker 4: So your friends are your secret mistress.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I assume that they all know that our friendship
Speaker 2: does not need to be performed. But now I think,
Speaker 2: did they think that I am keeping them secret?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 4: They one hundred percent do. Because you can't go to
Speaker 4: dinner with your friend not post them, or even worse,
Speaker 4: post the dinner but not tag them and not show them,
Speaker 4: and then the next day go to dinner with me
Speaker 4: and Jesse and then post us and tag.
Speaker 5: Have you ever been to a dinner where some people
Speaker 5: from the dinner go off and take photos and then
Speaker 5: post it.
Speaker 4: No one does that, I like in the bathroom it.
Speaker 5: Yes, I've experienced it, and I've been like, oh, I
Speaker 5: mind the table, We're taking the pictures to mark my dinner,
Speaker 5: and I'm.
Speaker 3: Like can I have a tag?
Speaker 2: People really do that?
Speaker 5: Yeah, because I think that they know they're the photo people.
Speaker 5: They know I'm not the photo person that if they
Speaker 5: asked me, I'd make it weird and I'd be awkward
Speaker 5: and I don't know how to pose and I'd rather
Speaker 5: just sit there and.
Speaker 4: Are you okay with not being the photo person?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I am.
Speaker 5: It's funny because me, it's talked on this show before
Speaker 5: about how she feels like social media at the moment
Speaker 5: is leaking intimacy in certain experiences that we're having, whether
Speaker 5: it's with our family or our friends or holidays or whatever.
Speaker 5: There's this I don't know, it feels transgressive to go,
Speaker 5: I'm not going to post like it feels countercultural. I
Speaker 5: think especially for maybe Gen X and millennial women who
Speaker 5: have come up with this big revolution in media. Like
Speaker 5: I still remember the Facebook. We would go out clubbing
Speaker 5: and I would have my.
Speaker 4: Digital camera, digital camera.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would make head.
Speaker 4: I would make Friday Nights.
Speaker 5: I would make multiple Facebook albums and it would be
Speaker 5: of a shoe and it would be of a blur
Speaker 5: and it was like there was no such thing as intimacy.
Speaker 5: That now I'm just like, it's like a hangover. I
Speaker 5: read someone refer to it as like an immune response
Speaker 5: to that that the body is just kind of like
Speaker 5: I need to keep you away, and the internet oscillates,
Speaker 5: I think, very quickly between kind of like overexposure and
Speaker 5: then pulling it all back. So there's this new trend
Speaker 5: of the no grid, like people are taking away their
Speaker 5: their grids or deleting their whole grids. And I've noticed
Speaker 5: that with nearly every gen Z I follow, if I
Speaker 5: go on to their account, they've got like six or
Speaker 5: seven photos, like they don't have this sprawling grid which
Speaker 5: I do of every thing I've ever posted. I didn't
Speaker 5: realize you could take it away.
Speaker 2: I didn't know that was an option. I thought that
Speaker 2: the whole point was this is a record of my life,
Speaker 2: and to delete anything from it would be to deny
Speaker 2: a moment in time.
Speaker 5: I thought, anytime I've seen someone, if Maya deleted her grid,
Speaker 5: I would call her on the phone, which I never do,
Speaker 5: and I would say, are you having an identity crisis?
Speaker 5: I would think that she was in a moment of
Speaker 5: profound crisis and she needed a welfare check if she
Speaker 5: deleted it.
Speaker 3: But the Genza heads are just like.
Speaker 5: What even is identity? What is fixed? And I'm like,
Speaker 5: what you can't just break the rule?
Speaker 2: Okay, but there's a conflict here because you're saying it's
Speaker 2: not cool to post a lot, but you're telling me
Speaker 2: em that if you go out for a girl's dinner
Speaker 2: and it is not posted, then that's somehow slight. I'm
Speaker 2: not never posted. To me if I'm having dinner with
Speaker 2: my girlfriend's on like a random if it's birthday or
Speaker 2: something different, but like a random Thursday night pastor, it
Speaker 2: wouldn't even occur to me that I should post that.
Speaker 4: No, it's not like post it in general. It's more
Speaker 4: like if there's a group of your friends that you
Speaker 4: don't post o other people, so you're still posting, but
Speaker 4: only certain people. And it's the friends that who don't
Speaker 4: get posted, who are like what the hell? Like I
Speaker 4: see you once a week, we have beautiful dinners, we
Speaker 4: hang out all the time. I put makeup on, I
Speaker 4: dress up for you, and not once have I appeared
Speaker 4: on your grid. People don't even know we're friends.
Speaker 2: Why do you want people to know your friends?
Speaker 4: Because then people ask are you still friends with so
Speaker 4: and so? I haven't seen them on your.
Speaker 2: Instagram, so it is a document of your life, like
Speaker 2: it is, what's like, what.
Speaker 4: Will happen if, like, I still don't understand the leaking
Speaker 4: of intimacy, because what will happen if you do post
Speaker 4: those photos with your friends?
Speaker 2: Well, I think the problem is is that people begin
Speaker 2: to struggle with every social event and friendship moment being
Speaker 2: for the grid. Right, So let's talk about Thursday night,
Speaker 2: pasta dinner. Right, you know, we're all talking, we're just
Speaker 2: having a good time, it's an ordinary night. At what
Speaker 2: point are we all like photo time? And then we're
Speaker 2: all who's approving this picture? Like do you like how
Speaker 2: you look? And do you look like how you look?
Speaker 2: And do we tag the restaurant? Not tag the restaurant?
Speaker 4: And I always take the restaurant. I don't know where
Speaker 4: you're going? And then we're.
Speaker 2: Very like I feel like that changes the purpose and
Speaker 2: the dynamic of the evening, right, And the and the
Speaker 2: thing that people begin to panic about about intimacy leak
Speaker 2: is are we performing going out for dinner with our
Speaker 2: friends rather than just going out for dinner with our friends?
Speaker 2: And I think because.
Speaker 3: That takes you out of the moment.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's to me. It's like, say, it's my
Speaker 2: friend's birthday and we go out for dinner and I
Speaker 2: post about it and I'm like, happy birthday, Betty. You
Speaker 2: know that's my act of like appreciation of Betty. But
Speaker 2: hopefully she already knows that I appreciate her Like that
Speaker 2: isn't my real life, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: My grid and my feed is not my real life.
Speaker 4: But it doesn't have to be like a pose photo,
Speaker 4: like a curated photo. It can be like a blurry
Speaker 4: photo of your pasta while you're eating it, and I
Speaker 4: just want to see the list of your friends that
Speaker 4: you're with in the tag, but just so I can
Speaker 4: stalk them, especially if they're hot. If they're a hot friend,
Speaker 4: I definitely need.
Speaker 2: It's totally so, say my daughter, who growing up in
Speaker 2: the world of snap maps, did they have snap maps
Speaker 2: around when you were didn't have right, So it is
Speaker 2: so normal for you for the idea of like who
Speaker 2: are you with? Where are you? I need to know
Speaker 2: all interesting that so and so wasn't there, like.
Speaker 5: I just and they wanted to disappear, which is what
Speaker 5: Snapchat realized really early on, which is why the grid
Speaker 5: is gone. The grid is gone because younger people don't
Speaker 5: want that footprint. They've seen it happen enough that it
Speaker 5: comes back to bite you, like she wants to.
Speaker 3: Know happy with my story.
Speaker 4: It's happy with a story that's twenty four hours.
Speaker 3: She's happy with the story impermanent. Yes.
Speaker 5: And what I think you're also speaking to is the
Speaker 5: photo dump, which is another trend which there was an
Speaker 5: article recently in The New Yorker about this. What we
Speaker 5: do online is completely shaped by the algorithm. It's not,
Speaker 5: you know, just people deciding all of a sudden they'd
Speaker 5: like to post twenty photos. But in August, I think
Speaker 5: Instagram went from letting you post ten photos to letting
Speaker 5: you post twenty. And you remember j Loo just after
Speaker 5: Ben posted sixteen, and it is like all these oh
Speaker 5: what a summer, and she posted all these random things.
Speaker 5: And I think that what Instagram has become is less
Speaker 5: like here's my friends at dinner, and more about here's
Speaker 5: a vibe, like I'm gonna sprinkle these things and give
Speaker 5: you a sense of my month, rather than like the
Speaker 5: images that are like opposed the you know, twenty to
Speaker 5: fifteen influencer posing in a bikini not getting any traction.
Speaker 5: What is some chaotic, as a young person would say,
Speaker 5: cooked carousel of like a dinner and a blurred this,
Speaker 5: and there's a bonfire and there's half your friend's leg
Speaker 5: and that's like yeah, and it's the end of month
Speaker 5: dump situation.
Speaker 4: Yeah, or end of week. Like I really respect the
Speaker 4: photo dumb because I get like a weekly recap of
Speaker 4: like everyone's big week, and it needs to be chaotic
Speaker 4: and it needs to be from your POV and I
Speaker 4: need to see the world through your eyes, so it
Speaker 4: can't be curated, it can't be edited. What happened is
Speaker 4: that the celebrities and the rich people got hold of
Speaker 4: the photo dump and they tried to do it as well.
Speaker 4: They tried to be like, yeah, look at me, casual, cool,
Speaker 4: but in the corner you're like that's a chandelier. You're like,
Speaker 4: that's a very expensive candle. And what they've done now
Speaker 4: is that they've led us into this huge world that
Speaker 4: we never had access before. So now we're just like
Speaker 4: perving on all of these lives and they don't realize,
Speaker 4: like you were saying before, how intimate these dumps actually are.
Speaker 2: I love a further dump twenty photos thirty Furtosire give
Speaker 2: me all of them. It's time efficient, so I only
Speaker 2: have to look at your thing once rather than I
Speaker 2: have to keep going. And I love that thing of
Speaker 2: what do you choose? Because when I used to do
Speaker 2: my best and worst of the week, I used to
Speaker 2: do on a Saturday morning, I'd do ten and it
Speaker 2: would always be like, actually that was because you could
Speaker 2: only do ten. Like what you choose is really interesting,
Speaker 2: because that's the whole point of curation, right. It's like,
Speaker 2: there could be everything in the world, but what would
Speaker 2: I choose to celebrate or highlight or whatever. And in
Speaker 2: that instance, Thursday night dinner might make it in right,
Speaker 2: like all Monday night movie club that I do with
Speaker 2: Jesse and Meha. And I know I have this much
Speaker 2: mocked like obsession with privacy, which is funny for someone
Speaker 2: who lives a lot of their life publicly. But it's
Speaker 2: that idea of if I thought that people were looking
Speaker 2: to see who I was going out for dinner with
Speaker 2: and wondering why Sally wasn't there on Wednesday, like that
Speaker 2: would really stress me out a lot.
Speaker 4: Why wasn't she there?
Speaker 3: You find to hide?
Speaker 2: You need to know.
Speaker 4: I'm going to be in the comics at Sally if
Speaker 4: we're here.
Speaker 5: The other thing with the not posting the friends, right,
Speaker 5: And I thought when I watched that TikTok video was
Speaker 5: there's this evolution of Internet slash social media that I
Speaker 5: was reading about, which is I guess the niche right,
Speaker 5: So and TikTok has shaped this, but I think it's
Speaker 5: sort of in every platform to varying degrees. Is that
Speaker 5: when I turned up to Facebook, and when I turned
Speaker 5: up to MySpace, and when I first turned up to Instagram,
Speaker 5: I brought my whole self. I brought my parents, I
Speaker 5: brought my friends, I brought my pets, and I brought
Speaker 5: my job, and I brought everything. Now there's this thing
Speaker 5: where it's like, what actually works best in terms of
Speaker 5: content creation because a lot of this is being monetized
Speaker 5: is Jesse does this on the Internet. So I'm gonna
Speaker 5: show you what I do when Jesse does a podcast
Speaker 5: and you don't get access to me on the weekend.
Speaker 5: And that I think I'm seeing that increasingly, even with
Speaker 5: like really public figures, they're going no, I'm not gonna
Speaker 5: leak that, and I'm not gonna leak that. I'm gonna
Speaker 5: have a certain part of myself that's for the public,
Speaker 5: and then who I have dinner with on a Monday
Speaker 5: is none of your business.
Speaker 4: So do you use your Instagram more like a LinkedIn? Yes,
Speaker 4: like a social LinkedIn?
Speaker 3: Yes? Absolutely? Absolutely.
Speaker 4: Do you have a private Instagram like a Finster?
Speaker 5: I don't, But I was reading about this because I
Speaker 5: was thinking, Oh, all the gen Z's I know have
Speaker 5: deleted their grid, and I was like, because I guarantee
Speaker 5: they have some Finsta with their photo dumps and with
Speaker 5: all their like I don't know, hot like posy photos
Speaker 5: or whatever, I'm certainly not getting them. But that's apparently
Speaker 5: what gen Z's are doing more and more is they're
Speaker 5: going because the thing about Instagram that because it's got
Speaker 5: the public private settings, it was also for everyone. Like
Speaker 5: I've always been aware on Instagram that it's not just
Speaker 5: people who know me. Anyone can come across you and
Speaker 5: get a sense of you in a second, whereas that's
Speaker 5: not what happens on your Facebook profile or whatever. What
Speaker 5: gen Z's are doing now is they're going, I want
Speaker 5: to have an Instagram account where twenty of my friends
Speaker 5: follow and it's almost like a group chat with my friends,
Speaker 5: and then they have that separately so they can be
Speaker 5: themselves there, which that had never occurred to me. I
Speaker 5: thought everyone who followed me on Instagram just needs to
Speaker 5: know everything.
Speaker 4: And they're so active on social as well, Like I
Speaker 4: always forget that just because they're not posting doesn't mean
Speaker 4: they're not active, Like they're always the first to reply
Speaker 4: to DM, to read your stories, to watch your stories.
Speaker 3: Do you have a fin Star?
Speaker 4: I do have a fin Star follow it, but I
Speaker 4: don't post on it regularly.
Speaker 3: Oh is it for stalking?
Speaker 2: It's for start it's stalking. Okay, So we also need
Speaker 2: to explain this to out louders who aren't necessarily across it.
Speaker 2: You might have a Finster account that you might use
Speaker 2: to do exactly what em just said. Go and look
Speaker 2: at other people's stories without them seeing, because they can
Speaker 2: see when you're looking at their story.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and have it super private so that maybe only, yeah,
Speaker 5: a few people see it. And maybe that's where you
Speaker 5: put pictures of your baby because you don't want all
Speaker 5: the other people looking. Yes.
Speaker 4: After the break, we are setting up your weekend with
Speaker 4: our best recommendations, including a new show that Holly is
Speaker 4: obsessed with it. She literally was screaming us this morning.
Speaker 6: He loud.
Speaker 4: It is Friday, which means we share our best recommendations
Speaker 4: with you, and today I am going to go first.
Speaker 4: You don't mind.
Speaker 2: I like it.
Speaker 4: So I am recommending a cleanser. It's the Trinny London
Speaker 4: Cleansing Bomb. It's called the Be Your Best Enzyme Bomb cleanser.
Speaker 4: So the cleanser is amazing. It's like this big yellow bottle.
Speaker 4: You can also get a mini version for like if
Speaker 4: you're traveling or stuff. But I'm actually not recommending the
Speaker 4: specific cleanser, but more the cleansing act I do.
Speaker 3: Can I ask a questions about the cleanser? Yes, just
Speaker 3: go on dry.
Speaker 4: Our wet skin goes on dry skin. So I'm recommending
Speaker 4: like oil and balm cleansers in general to work on
Speaker 4: a dry skin.
Speaker 1: Yea.
Speaker 4: So I visited my friend and facialist, Lauren over the weekend.
Speaker 2: Excuse me, do you have a This is.
Speaker 3: Why all they all have such a beautiful skin. I
Speaker 3: think I need a facialist. I'm very spotty at the moment.
Speaker 2: Is it facialist different from a dermatologist? Yes? So am
Speaker 2: I meant to have like a dermatologist and.
Speaker 4: I don't have a dermatology artist is when you have
Speaker 4: a real problem, when you have your ex summer or something.
Speaker 2: And then maybe an.
Speaker 4: Interrupted sorry on my skin has changed. I used to
Speaker 4: be very oily, and then I started getting older and
Speaker 4: the weather changed, and now I'm very dry, and I
Speaker 4: didn't know how to work with my skin. So she
Speaker 4: told me that I need to start cleansing with an
Speaker 4: oil cleanser. And I talked about this on the You
Speaker 4: Beauty podcast on Wednesday. If you listened, did you? It's
Speaker 4: on my left and she told me that she wanted
Speaker 4: me once a week to cleanse in an oil or
Speaker 4: balm cleanser for twenty minutes.
Speaker 2: That's a long time.
Speaker 3: Does she mean leave it on for twenty minutes?
Speaker 4: I actually like rapplarge my face for twenty minutes, she said,
Speaker 4: Put on the TV, sit in front of the TV,
Speaker 4: watch a favorite episode or something, and just cleanse for
Speaker 4: twenty minutes a week.
Speaker 2: Because I love an oil cleanser do They're my favorite,
Speaker 2: So they go on dry skin. So then just sit
Speaker 2: there in front of the.
Speaker 4: Telly, rubbing your face, neck, declotage all of it for
Speaker 4: twenty minutes. I've done it for three weeks. I've done
Speaker 4: it three times. My skin has completely transformed.
Speaker 2: In what way it does like good babes.
Speaker 4: Oh well, now I'm purging, so it's not not backgrade,
Speaker 4: which you told me might happen. Brighter, more moist. Is
Speaker 4: that the right word for skin? Like plumper? Also like
Speaker 4: the amount of shit that came out of my skin
Speaker 4: while doing this, like black heads, spacious feelings, yes, like
Speaker 4: little hair.
Speaker 2: So then after your twenty minutes, you get like a
Speaker 2: little cloth and white.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you get a cloth, and then you can do
Speaker 4: your double clean so like a normal cleanser on top,
Speaker 4: and then your normal like skin care routine and your
Speaker 4: skin feels so good.
Speaker 5: I'm going to do that tonight because I actually have that.
Speaker 5: I've never been very good at using them because I rush.
Speaker 4: You need to sink in and then it becomes oily
Speaker 4: and feels better. Rush it and you don't get that
Speaker 4: feeling of like gladness.
Speaker 5: Yeah right right right, And I do get the sense
Speaker 5: I'm not getting all my makeup off.
Speaker 4: And when you see the stuff come out on your hands,
Speaker 4: you get addicted.
Speaker 3: I'm so excited.
Speaker 2: God, this is the best recommendation ever until this one.
Speaker 4: Oh gosh, here we go.
Speaker 2: So I don't know I have a feeling that this
Speaker 2: is a recommendation that will divide. People are either going
Speaker 2: to fucking love this or you're going to be like
Speaker 2: Holly you canceled because Disney Plus has a new show
Speaker 2: on it called Rivals, right, and I need to explain
Speaker 2: that it's based on one of many books by a
Speaker 2: British author called Jilly Cooper. She's actually Dame Jilly Cooper
Speaker 2: because she has been around for a very long time
Speaker 2: and she wrote the books that were very popular in
Speaker 2: the nineteen eighties. Is to be called bunk right in.
Speaker 3: Like fifty Shades.
Speaker 4: No, it is not allowed. I'd be allowed to say that.
Speaker 2: Like Jackie Collins, Have you ever read any of those
Speaker 2: kind of books? I like, sort of really rompy, lightweight,
Speaker 2: sort of satirical loads of sex, usually set in like
Speaker 2: a high society world. Bonkbusters used to call them, right.
Speaker 2: Jilly Cooper was the best at writing those, and she
Speaker 2: herself is poshing, comes from posh part of England, and
Speaker 2: they're all set in these Cotswolds, very fancy sort of
Speaker 2: societies and a lot about class and a lot about
Speaker 2: outsiders insiders stuff, but mostly about sex. Anyway, Jilly Cooper's
Speaker 2: books have all been bought and are being adapted for
Speaker 2: TV in the most perfect way that could ever happen.
Speaker 4: It's nineteen eighty six.
Speaker 3: You can have whatever you want.
Speaker 6: Come to the cotswart.
Speaker 2: Is it going to happen to us in the place
Speaker 2: like this?
Speaker 3: If you don't start spending some of that fortune making
Speaker 3: a decent television, you're going to lose your business.
Speaker 4: Rupert Campbell Black championshow Jump Up put out the past year?
Speaker 7: It's an arrogant Black.
Speaker 2: Rivals. Doesn't really matter what it's about, but it's a
Speaker 2: story of a guy who buys a TV station and
Speaker 2: he's trying to take on like the BBC in the eighties,
Speaker 2: and it's all this right. That guy is played by
Speaker 2: David Tennant, who you know from Oh Church, Doctor Who,
Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera. The cast is amazing, like lots
Speaker 2: of people whose names you wouldn't necessarily know. What you've
Speaker 2: seen in every good English thing you've ever seen. Right,
Speaker 2: it is so fun. I've heard Marina Hyde talk about
Speaker 2: this on one of my favorite progrests and she said
Speaker 2: this show is TV perfection because it's what we need
Speaker 2: at this moment. Right. It's said in the eighties, So
Speaker 2: it's complete retro pawn of that time, which was very,
Speaker 2: as we call it now, politically incorrect, but not enough
Speaker 2: like a hort well sometimes in a horrible way, but
Speaker 2: it doesn't shy away from that, hasn't like sanitized it
Speaker 2: and kind of done that thing that sometimes adaptations do
Speaker 2: where they go, let's just pretend that all the moors
Speaker 2: of now are the mores of them, Like no, right,
Speaker 2: So the problematic characters are problematic. There's so much sex.
Speaker 2: There's nudity. Penis first episode bangs right full frontal in
Speaker 2: you Are.
Speaker 3: I love a bit of that.
Speaker 2: The soundtrack is.
Speaker 4: It like sexy?
Speaker 2: It's not sexy in a way that would make you excited, Okay,
Speaker 2: not really. It's more just like funny thing all like
Speaker 2: funny sex, which is what that was about that Bom
Speaker 2: plus time. Anyway, I can't tell you. I watched two
Speaker 2: episodes last night and all I want to do is
Speaker 2: stop talking to you and gon't watch it. You've sold
Speaker 2: me that's fun. And what I heard Marina Heidze, which
Speaker 2: is so funny. She was like, I don't know how
Speaker 2: the Americans are going to feel about this because it's
Speaker 2: prestige TV as in The production values are unbelievable, the
Speaker 2: cast is unbelievable. But it has no message. It has
Speaker 2: no like Higher Arc, it's just.
Speaker 3: No speech, deliver morality.
Speaker 2: Watch and shut up and enjoy and please it's my
Speaker 2: gift to you. Watch Rivals. Apparently all her books are
Speaker 2: going to be adapted in the same way, and Riders
Speaker 2: is the one that I remember mostly, which is about
Speaker 2: high jumpers and show jumpers. Like it's just so good.
Speaker 5: Speaking of has you started watching my recommendation from last week?
Speaker 3: Disclaimer?
Speaker 2: Not yet, but I promise I will.
Speaker 4: What do you think so good? It took me a
Speaker 4: while to understand it's.
Speaker 5: Quite Yeah, it's a bit weird, but I've free watched
Speaker 5: the new second one and like the new ones and
Speaker 5: that look. Luckily I have a high brow recommend that
Speaker 5: is lucky to bring to the table. Because have you
Speaker 5: seen the clips of Andrew Garfield breaking down on Modern.
Speaker 4: Love no podcast.
Speaker 2: I've been watching him on as discussed on Monday's episode
Speaker 2: Chicken Shop Days.
Speaker 4: And I watched him with Elmo.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love him.
Speaker 5: You're gonna love him all because he went on the
Speaker 5: Modern Love podcast and what they do is a quick
Speaker 5: little interview and then they read an essay which sounds
Speaker 5: like a bad format in my opinion, and it's brilliant.
Speaker 5: It's a brilliant format, but basically the essay that he chooses.
Speaker 5: So they gave him a few to choose from, and
Speaker 5: he chose an essay called Learning to Measure Time in
Speaker 5: Love and Loss, and it's about the grief of time passing.
Speaker 5: And he speaks about this concept of honism.
Speaker 7: The sense and of knowing and the sorrow of knowing
Speaker 7: that you will only be able to live your own life.
Speaker 7: You won't be able to have all of the experiences
Speaker 7: you want. That I won't be able to read all
Speaker 7: the books in the library, see all the films in
Speaker 7: the in the cinema, to know all the people on earth,
Speaker 7: visit all the countries, all of history, all of time.
Speaker 7: Is an imprisonment in the life that you have, realizing
Speaker 7: that you're trapped to a certain amount of experience as
Speaker 7: you're alive.
Speaker 5: And there's a sense of profound grief in that that
Speaker 5: life is about letting go and realizing all the things
Speaker 5: he's never going to have. And he talks about how
Speaker 5: the people he knows who have died still had books
Speaker 5: I wanted to read, had things they wanted to do.
Speaker 3: He just articulated it so beautifully. But this essay.
Speaker 5: He reads this essay and he gets halfway through, and
Speaker 5: this has never happened in a Modern Love episode before,
Speaker 5: where he just broke down and just started crying because
Speaker 5: he was so.
Speaker 3: Touched by it.
Speaker 7: My wife hasn't worn a bikini for six years and
Speaker 7: probably never will again. She says she's too old, which
Speaker 7: makes me sad. She's a beautiful woman with gray and
Speaker 7: her hair. My parents no longer drive at night. Sorry.
Speaker 5: It's about a guy who worked in prison and what
Speaker 5: the cell mats taught him about life.
Speaker 3: And ah, so Andrew Garfield.
Speaker 5: It's really affecting. I think a lot of people will
Speaker 5: relate to it. So yeah, Modern Love with Andrew Garfield.
Speaker 5: It is time for Best and Worst of the week.
Speaker 5: While it is nearly time, join us after this short
Speaker 5: break to hear why one of my favorite things in
Speaker 5: the world is actually my worst.
Speaker 4: This week.
Speaker 2: Out louders, if you want to listen to us every
Speaker 2: day of the week, and why wouldn't you, You can
Speaker 2: get access to exclusive segments on Tuesdays and Thursdays by
Speaker 2: becoming a Mum and Mere subscriber. Follow the link in
Speaker 2: the show notes to subscribe, and a big thank you
Speaker 2: to all our current subscribers.
Speaker 5: Right out louders, it is time for us to spill
Speaker 5: our best and worst of the last seven days. M
Speaker 5: what is your worst?
Speaker 4: My worst is my dad was in and out of
Speaker 4: hospital this week with kidney stones.
Speaker 2: Mate, I've had one of those. It hurts like hell.
Speaker 4: Apparently he had many.
Speaker 2: I can't even imagine. Oh, it was a lot.
Speaker 3: Did they give him all the pain relief?
Speaker 4: Yes, he got a lot of pain relief. So he
Speaker 4: got kidney stones for the first time. When I was sixteen.
Speaker 4: It was a big deal because it was the first
Speaker 4: time I saw like a parent go into like surgery.
Speaker 4: Even though it was like key hold, I was like,
Speaker 4: I've never seen had a parent be in hospital. And
Speaker 4: it was my birthday as well, and it was the
Speaker 4: day after was my birthday party, and he had a
Speaker 4: surgery and then was able to party straight away after,
Speaker 4: and I was like, this is so cool. And the
Speaker 4: doctor was like, you'll probably get them again in twelve years,
Speaker 4: and like clockwork, exactly twelve years he's got them again.
Speaker 3: How many years ago were yours, Holly? Maybe two?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, a while. Yeah, so he got them again
Speaker 4: and he was fine for a bit and then he
Speaker 4: had like a big one, but he was able to
Speaker 4: pass it, and so they sent him back home from
Speaker 4: the hospital. But then he was in so much pain
Speaker 4: from all the little ones because you can't actually remove them.
Speaker 4: You have to blast them and then pee them out,
Speaker 4: and the recovery has taken quite a bit. Like he
Speaker 4: was in a pain, and it was the first time
Speaker 4: I've seen like my dad in pain. And I was like,
Speaker 4: the last time he got them felt like yesterday, and
Speaker 4: now it feels like he's so much older. It was
Speaker 4: the first time I've seen my dad seem older, vulnerable.
Speaker 4: And also because he's like a trade so I've always
Speaker 4: like pictured him like on a ladder, like carrying a refrigerator,
Speaker 4: fixing my air con, doing all that stuff. And it
Speaker 4: just made me realize that in probably like five to
Speaker 4: ten years, like he can't be that person anymore.
Speaker 2: You're gonna have to get all of the jobs you
Speaker 2: need doing.
Speaker 4: Literally get back from the hospital, very got to move
Speaker 4: my couch. Yeah, but yeah, he's okay. Now, Yeah he's fine.
Speaker 4: Now he's at home. He's like cooking. It's like, oh,
Speaker 4: I need to provide this family was back. But yeah,
Speaker 4: it was just one of those moments I feel like
Speaker 4: you've talked about it before where it's just one of
Speaker 4: those moments where you're like, oh, my parents.
Speaker 5: May I recommend to you? Andrew Garfield, That's exactly what
Speaker 5: it's about.
Speaker 4: My best though was relating to my age. I went
Speaker 4: to a concert recently, Lime Cordial.
Speaker 2: Have you heard it?
Speaker 1: Yes? I have.
Speaker 4: They were playing at the icy C.
Speaker 2: I couldn't sing one of this song.
Speaker 4: No, I couldn't either concert, but I've heard of them. Yeah,
Speaker 4: it's very alt. I went with my cousin and the
Speaker 4: only tickets we could get were the tickets like at
Speaker 4: the back with the seats, so we were sitting. We
Speaker 4: were the youngest people like in our row basically, and
Speaker 4: it was so much fun sitting down at a concert
Speaker 4: that you're meant to be dancing and jumping up and
Speaker 4: down for. And then it was just so much fun
Speaker 4: because we were sitting down for the songs we didn't
Speaker 4: really know, like bobbing along, and then the songs we
Speaker 4: did know. I think it's like consensus, like everyone knows
Speaker 4: that even if you're sitting down, you can stand up
Speaker 4: and have a bit of a boogie. So we did that.
Speaker 4: Niece felt great after was able to walk home.
Speaker 3: There is no luxury like sitting at a concert.
Speaker 4: It is and it started at nine, and they came
Speaker 4: on a bit earlier, so they came on at eight fifty.
Speaker 4: So I was home by like eleven.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, I'm depressed. How old are you again?
Speaker 4: Twenty eight?
Speaker 2: Dance at the concerts.
Speaker 4: But I don't know if I want to anymore.
Speaker 2: You've aged yourself up pretty significantly.
Speaker 3: Holly, what's your worst?
Speaker 2: Okay, my worst?
Speaker 4: It's not really a worse.
Speaker 2: In many ways, it's my best because I finally sent
Speaker 2: the final pages off for my next book. It's been
Speaker 2: a juice well second to last five, but you know,
Speaker 2: last opportunity to make a lot of changes. And this
Speaker 2: book has any out Louder would know, has been what
Speaker 2: we would call a journey. And anyway, what happens with books,
Speaker 2: if you don't know, is that you write your book,
Speaker 2: you send it off, your editor comes back and says,
Speaker 2: this isn't working, This isn't working. Change this do that?
Speaker 2: I mean, I assume that's what happens to everyone. Maybe
Speaker 2: it doesn't.
Speaker 5: Jesse some people like me just get a big ticks.
Speaker 2: And so there are like stages of editing, so you
Speaker 2: do quite a big rewrite and then you send it
Speaker 2: back and then the structural structural, right, so structural is
Speaker 2: like big things, and then it's line edits, which are
Speaker 2: small things, but it's hard.
Speaker 3: It's really hard.
Speaker 4: I want to tell a story, it's really hard.
Speaker 2: And then after the line edits, then it comes back
Speaker 2: with like these are the page proofs. So you're just
Speaker 2: literally like proofing for mistakes. It's quite vulnerable, like all
Speaker 2: these people, Oh my god, so vulnerable. And so by
Speaker 2: the time you get to nearly the pointy end, which
Speaker 2: is kind of where I am now, most of the
Speaker 2: big things have been solved. But you get your document
Speaker 2: back and it has lots of little notes in the margins,
Speaker 2: sometimes maybe a list as well. And the thing is
Speaker 2: is that sometimes the mistakes you've made just are very
Speaker 2: revealing about you your life, like because proofreaders are amazing people, right,
Speaker 2: they make it writers look good. You know, we're very
Speaker 2: good at grammar and we know all the words. But
Speaker 2: they also are very particularly pedantic, like they have to
Speaker 2: be right in their job. So for example, this is
Speaker 2: why It was my worst because, for example, one of
Speaker 2: the edits in this most recent edit was I think
Speaker 2: I had the character who's this very sort of cold
Speaker 2: guy who lives in this very perfect apartment, and I
Speaker 2: referred to the towels that the woman found there as
Speaker 2: box fresh, and the proofreader wrote in the margin, towels
Speaker 2: can't be box fresh because you have to wash towels
Speaker 2: before you use them. Always.
Speaker 5: Is that why when I use new towels, I get
Speaker 5: fluff on me, fluff they stick to me. I think
Speaker 5: I was meant to wash them, and I had our
Speaker 5: group text to wash thee.
Speaker 2: Like I didn't know that. I thought one of the
Speaker 2: joys of music, and you tell is how fluffy it was,
Speaker 2: and b I'm like, you.
Speaker 4: Know what I mean?
Speaker 7: You know what I mean.
Speaker 2: This is what really proofreading and writers are always about.
Speaker 2: It's the writers they're going but you know what I mean,
Speaker 2: And they proof it is like, no, I don't know
Speaker 2: what you said. That's not what you said.
Speaker 4: Can you go back to them and be like, I
Speaker 4: know you're meant to do that, but the character did it.
Speaker 2: Of course you can't. Like the proofreader isn't like the
Speaker 2: teacher who gets to you decide what you're taking on
Speaker 2: what you're not and let me be clear, ninety nine
Speaker 2: point nine percent of what they tell you to do,
Speaker 2: you're like sex. Fuck they picked that up. But then
Speaker 2: there's their point one where you're just like nah, keeping it. Sorry.
Speaker 5: I fought for In my last book, I referred to
Speaker 5: someone as wearing Nike tea and a specific shoe that
Speaker 5: looks like they're about to kick you something like that,
Speaker 5: and they were like question mark, and I was like.
Speaker 4: Trust me, trust me, everyone knows.
Speaker 5: And I swear every second reader is like what and
Speaker 5: then every other reader's like, yeah, exactly, those shoes are
Speaker 5: kicking yeah, sometimes specificity specific see.
Speaker 2: The proof of it would know. Anyway, that was my
Speaker 2: worst of the week was realizing just what a heat
Speaker 2: and I am, but also thank god we're at that
Speaker 2: stage now. My best is that I literally found my
Speaker 2: life purpose last weekend, like all of the search before
Speaker 2: in the world now all of the searching that I've
Speaker 2: been doing for my entire life. Last weekend had a
Speaker 2: really busy weekend because Brent was away in New Zealand
Speaker 2: visiting his dad. As I spoke about last week, the
Speaker 2: kids had a lot on it. I'm trying to sign
Speaker 2: off my fucking book pages. But I did take half
Speaker 2: an hour to go and visit a garden here where
Speaker 2: I live, right, I know, right, you know you're gonna
Speaker 2: roll your eyes, but you've got to stick with me
Speaker 2: on it.
Speaker 4: So you post a garden on your Instagram story.
Speaker 2: I do.
Speaker 4: I can't get a tag. I had to.
Speaker 2: Tag my tomatoes anyway, Berry, which is a town near me,
Speaker 2: not quite where I live, but near me, was having
Speaker 2: garden festival and I was like, that sounds like fun,
Speaker 2: but actually I'm going to be honest, they're not that
Speaker 2: fun because basically, I mean, this is good in itself.
Speaker 2: You get to go and look at some really fancy
Speaker 2: person's really fancy garden.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 4: That actually appeals to me too, So it's for people
Speaker 4: who actually appreciate gardens.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and also, if you want to go on pervert,
Speaker 2: fancy houses and fancy gardens is ideal. But it wasn't
Speaker 2: really what I was looking for. I was like, help
Speaker 2: me with my tomato problems, Like, anyway.
Speaker 4: Google can help you with that, I'm sure, Like you're
Speaker 4: here for the wrong thing.
Speaker 2: They were like, here, we have a lake full of
Speaker 2: very expensive carp and fourteen different sculptures and hedges in
Speaker 2: this I'm like, no, no, where you're leafy greens. Talk
Speaker 2: to me of your brassacres. Anyway, I found that garden, right,
Speaker 2: I went and spent twenty very happy minutes.
Speaker 4: Were they part of the thing or did you just
Speaker 4: go to a Brandon's garden?
Speaker 2: Because that's what this woman's garden was on the list,
Speaker 2: And I know her a little bit, like this woman
Speaker 2: called Jody name check to Jody, I think she's an
Speaker 2: o louder. I think she listens to us while she
Speaker 2: sorts a compost. Anyway, Jody's garden is unbelievable, and she
Speaker 2: loves it. She spends half a life in there. I'm
Speaker 2: sure she's got these veggie beds that I just can't
Speaker 2: even She's got these old bed head that she's attached
Speaker 2: to them to dangling. It looks straight out of the
Speaker 2: pages of a magazine. But also just everything's just overflowed.
Speaker 2: And I was like, this is exactly what I'm going
Speaker 2: to do with my time when I am no longer
Speaker 2: working and my kids are grown. I am writing and
Speaker 2: I am gardening, and that is it. I'm writing gardening
Speaker 2: right and gardening. I was like that's it.
Speaker 3: I found my goal.
Speaker 2: I want to be in that garden. I want to
Speaker 2: be storting my compost. I want to be And I
Speaker 2: came home and I told the kids that, and they
Speaker 2: looked at me like I was and I was like,
Speaker 2: you don't understand. Two years ago, I didn't even know
Speaker 2: what a garden was, and now I've discovered that. It's
Speaker 2: all I want to do. All I wanted to.
Speaker 4: Kind of get that beautiful.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I like that a lot.
Speaker 2: You can change.
Speaker 5: My worst is also sort of a recommendation for a
Speaker 5: true crime documentary.
Speaker 3: I watched that.
Speaker 5: I'm not allowed to recommend anymore, but do you remember
Speaker 5: the case. It was a few years ago of Gracemulane
Speaker 5: and she was a young girl from the UK, I
Speaker 5: think she was twenty two, and she was traveling around
Speaker 5: the world on like a gap year, and she ended
Speaker 5: up in New Zealand. She went on a tinder date
Speaker 5: with a guy there. She ended up going missing, and
Speaker 5: then they eventually established that that man had murdered her. Anyway,
Speaker 5: I started watching that the other night. I've heard really
Speaker 5: good things about it, and it is an outstanding documentary.
Speaker 5: The reason it is my worst is because there are
Speaker 5: a few things I remembered from this case, and it
Speaker 5: made me think about how quickly the news cycle moves on,
Speaker 5: and how we never actually prosecute what happened because we
Speaker 5: just get thrown all these conflicting narratives. So do you
Speaker 5: remember about that case that one of the things that
Speaker 5: made headlines was that what the defense had to argue
Speaker 5: was that in that hotel room, he choked her because
Speaker 5: she wanted it.
Speaker 2: I do remember such a distinct, so.
Speaker 5: Distressing, right, And I remember that being one of the things,
Speaker 5: and it became this big conversation about choking.
Speaker 2: I remember just Sindra Dan spoke about it, Yes, she did.
Speaker 5: They show that clip, and this documentary shows the interviews,
Speaker 5: that shows CCTV footage, It shows inside the room like
Speaker 5: it's really hearing what the defense had to argue. I
Speaker 5: almost felt sorry for that lawyer because I just went
Speaker 5: what he had to argue. What we never went back
Speaker 5: and looked at was the truth of what happened that night.
Speaker 5: Because the thing is that once they established guilty or
Speaker 5: innocence and sentencing, the world's moved on. Yeah, and all
Speaker 5: you got with the headlines about the choking that man,
Speaker 5: I won't go into it too much, because I think
Speaker 5: you should watch it. But that man, who was an
Speaker 5: ordinary young man, like and you get that sense from
Speaker 5: the CCTV he came across so ordinary, took out on
Speaker 5: a date. What they know they were able to establish
Speaker 5: is that after she died in the hotel room, he
Speaker 5: took photos of her naked body and he watched pornography.
Speaker 5: They are just two of the details. There are a
Speaker 5: hundred other details about what he did, but you go,
Speaker 5: it was in the media. It was like positioned as
Speaker 5: this accident and that in order to defend.
Speaker 2: Almost even like almost her fault. So I felt like
Speaker 2: young women wanting today dangerous sex acts.
Speaker 5: I mean, poor man's life is ruined because of what
Speaker 5: she wanted. That in order to defend someone who's accused
Speaker 5: of murder, you have to defame a dead woman, Like
Speaker 5: that's so fucked up.
Speaker 3: And I just, oh my god.
Speaker 5: I think it's really important to go back and look
Speaker 5: at the details of these cases because it gets so
Speaker 5: vague and so confused that we never really think about it.
Speaker 4: I remember this case because I was obviously like single
Speaker 4: and dating at the time, and I think every woman
Speaker 4: who was dating at that time remembers this so specifically
Speaker 4: because I remember I didn't even hear it on the news.
Speaker 4: I heard it like almost like a rumor because like,
Speaker 4: that's what you did. You talked about like all the
Speaker 4: most dangerous situations you could potentially be on in a date.
Speaker 4: And I do remember the photos because that's what I
Speaker 4: heard through my friend, but I never saw it on
Speaker 4: the news.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's like what we're talking about recently with the
Speaker 5: French case, where you just go, these are not monsters
Speaker 5: that are like serial killers that are out to it.
Speaker 5: This is just, yeah, what looks like an ordinary person.
Speaker 5: My best of the week is my mum, who has
Speaker 5: now retired, gotten a wood on Friday night. Oh, she
Speaker 5: had a little awards night and yeah, the whole family went.
Speaker 2: When did add retire? Regular outlouders will know this. Jesse
Speaker 2: Klasma and very regular in the out Louders group.
Speaker 5: Wonderful woman pretty much, I would say at the end
Speaker 5: of last year, because she's a teacher, she kind of
Speaker 5: scaled it back to a few days and then I
Speaker 5: think she's officially retired now, but kind of was like
Speaker 5: I might do some casual teaching.
Speaker 2: And see how I love being retired.
Speaker 5: She is loving it because and this is what they
Speaker 5: were all saying was when you retire, you got to
Speaker 5: retire to something, your garden. You've got to retire to
Speaker 5: your garden or to ye books whatever. And my mum,
Speaker 5: and I know this is not every woman, but she's like,
Speaker 5: I'm retiring to my granddaughters. Like she is living her
Speaker 5: best fucking life. It was so lovely to go there
Speaker 5: and like a bunch of her friends were there and
Speaker 5: like work colleagues, and she got recognized because she's been
Speaker 5: a teacher for more than thirty years and got this
Speaker 5: special award. And I thought, we've been at awards nights
Speaker 5: or graduations or work things for me and my brothers
Speaker 5: and moms are always there clap, but how often are
Speaker 5: you actually there to celebrate your own mum. So anyway,
Speaker 5: it was a great night. And then my other mini
Speaker 5: best was at the day before because she looks after
Speaker 5: Luna Matilda at different times, but every now and then
Speaker 5: there's like a half hour period where she has both
Speaker 5: the girls and that can be really hard when neither
Speaker 5: of them walk yet. Anyway, she went and bought a
Speaker 5: double pram off Facebook marketplace, and the picture of the
Speaker 5: girls on the double pram is the cutest. They hit
Speaker 5: each other and then they cried. But Mum, she's most
Speaker 5: comfortable with a double cram. She's like, I didn't know
Speaker 5: single prans.
Speaker 2: Yes, because she's the mom of twos of twins, so
Speaker 2: I was like.
Speaker 3: I wouldn't even know how to you. How do you
Speaker 3: get through a door with a double pram? Anyway, my nanna.
Speaker 4: Did the same thing because I have two cousins also
Speaker 4: born in ninety ninety six, so we were all babies
Speaker 4: together and she bought a triple pram just for photos.
Speaker 4: Did we have so many?
Speaker 3: It's so cute.
Speaker 2: I'm so glad there was a ticket tape parade friends
Speaker 2: Steven because also for all bloody teachers teaching for thirty years,
Speaker 2: imagine how many lives she's changed, how much differ she's made, Like,
Speaker 2: I just absolutely applaud her.
Speaker 3: They do not every teacher get enough attention. Mum loved it.
Speaker 5: My brothers were like, oh, don't feel kind of weird
Speaker 5: when you're get getting an award.
Speaker 2: Mom's like, naps, give it to me.
Speaker 3: But no problem, we've center of attention.
Speaker 2: Or congratulations and that is all we've got time for today.
Speaker 2: A massive thank you to all of you out Louders
Speaker 2: for being with us all week. In our show notes,
Speaker 2: you're going to find links to everything that we've talked
Speaker 2: about today. You'll also find us on Instagram and TikTok,
Speaker 2: of course, or in the out Louders Facebook group, and
Speaker 2: don't forget, we've got a newsletter. There are lots of
Speaker 2: different places that you can jump in and connect with us,
Speaker 2: no matter what your social media jam is.
Speaker 4: Read us out a big thank you to our team.
Speaker 4: Executive producer is Ruth Divine, who last added to her
Speaker 4: grid on ninth of December twenty twenty three, but loves
Speaker 4: in Instagram story It's so cool. That is a cool girl.
Speaker 4: Think that's what you should be doing. Our senior producer
Speaker 4: is Emmeline Gazillis, who has posted only three times this year.
Speaker 4: In case you're wondering, the Mama Mia out loud Live
Speaker 4: show did indeed make it to.
Speaker 3: The grid got a priority of She's smart girl.
Speaker 4: Our audio producer is Leah Porges, who much prefers posting
Speaker 4: an Instagram story over putting something on the grid can relate,
Speaker 4: and our social media producer is Isabelle Dolphin. She's obviously
Speaker 4: an expert in the field, and her hot tip is
Speaker 4: to just have fun, don't overthink it, and post the
Speaker 4: damn selfie.
Speaker 3: Yeah, dolls, I think dolphs are big.
Speaker 4: I feel like Dolphin might look like you. I definitely
Speaker 4: be a posting.
Speaker 2: Sushnaw.
Speaker 3: But hay out louders.
Speaker 5: I know you're not ready to say goodbye just yet,
Speaker 5: so we are going to leave you with a little
Speaker 5: treat a taste of yesterday's Subscribe episode, where Holly and
Speaker 5: I found out from Amelia Lester exactly why Donald Trump
Speaker 5: did that shift of McDonald's if you've seen those images
Speaker 5: of him serving people takeaway machas.
Speaker 3: Yet look, Amelia did some explaining.
Speaker 1: So it was essentially him trolling her. Elon Musker has
Speaker 1: obviously been whispering in his ear because we all know
Speaker 1: that Elon Musk Clove's control. He didn't actually work an
Speaker 1: actual shift at the restaurant. It was, of course in Pennsylvania.
Speaker 1: We always talk about how important Pennsylvania is on this podcast,
Speaker 1: and he was kind of cosplaying as a minimum wage worker.
Speaker 1: The franchise was closed, all the customers passing through the
Speaker 1: drive through had been pre screened. There was a blonde
Speaker 1: woman who he got kind of creepy about as he
Speaker 1: was handing her fries, telling her how beautiful she was
Speaker 1: and how perfect she was. And now on his campaign
Speaker 1: store website there's a t shirt that says, I am
Speaker 1: the first and only twenty twenty four presidential nominee to
Speaker 1: work with ridnald.
Speaker 3: Oh He's so.
Speaker 5: As ever, you'll find a link to that episode in
Speaker 5: the show notes. Shout out to any Mum and Maya
Speaker 5: subscribers listening. If you love the show and you want
Speaker 5: to support us, subscribing to MMA MAA is the very
Speaker 5: best way to do so. There's a link in the
Speaker 5: episode description