WEBVTT - The Friends Who Don’t Make The Grid 0:00:10.327 --> 0:00:13.047 You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. 0:00:13.727 --> 0:00:16.767 Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:16.807 --> 0:00:23.407 that this podcast is recorded on Hello and welcome to 0:00:23.447 --> 0:00:26.087 Mamma Mia out Loud and to our Friday show. It's 0:00:26.127 --> 0:00:27.967 the show where we step out of the news cycle 0:00:28.247 --> 0:00:30.407 and talk about stuff that has nothing to do with 0:00:30.767 --> 0:00:34.327 all that. Today it's Friday, the twenty fifth of October, 0:00:34.367 --> 0:00:36.247 and I am Holly Wainwright. 0:00:35.967 --> 0:00:38.367 I am Jesse Stephens, and I'm m Venam. 0:00:38.487 --> 0:00:41.687 I normally co host our daily entertainment podcast, The Spill, 0:00:41.807 --> 0:00:44.047 but today I have a record that I really wanted 0:00:44.047 --> 0:00:45.847 to share with you, so I kicked me off. 0:00:48.047 --> 0:00:51.047 Welcome EM on today's show. Do you have a friend 0:00:51.047 --> 0:00:53.567 that you love but somehow they never ever make your 0:00:53.607 --> 0:00:56.967 Instagram grid? Are you that friend? Yes, you know what 0:00:56.967 --> 0:00:59.567 I'm talking about. Welcome to the new politics of social 0:00:59.607 --> 0:01:03.767 media friendship. Also the most ridiculously wonderful TV show of 0:01:03.807 --> 0:01:07.247 the year, an interview that made Jesse Stephens swoon, and 0:01:07.487 --> 0:01:12.127 EM's twenty minute face re team It's recommendations and our 0:01:12.167 --> 0:01:16.167 bests of worths of the week include revealing riding mistakes 0:01:16.287 --> 0:01:21.727 and Stephens's accolade and sitting down. But first, Jesse Stevens 0:01:22.007 --> 0:01:23.687 be my shean. 0:01:23.527 --> 0:01:26.127 Came in today and so I'm going to do a hall. 0:01:26.167 --> 0:01:29.847 It's like summer stuff, but literally came in four ds. 0:01:29.847 --> 0:01:31.087 Very big shopping holl. 0:01:31.167 --> 0:01:31.967 L had to do it, y'all. 0:01:32.207 --> 0:01:33.687 I just got a new H and M order, so 0:01:33.847 --> 0:01:35.287 let's open it and try it on together. 0:01:35.487 --> 0:01:36.647 I don't even know where to start. 0:01:36.807 --> 0:01:39.207 In case you missed it, the TikTok shopping hall has 0:01:39.287 --> 0:01:43.807 turned young shoppers into what has been termed serial returners, 0:01:44.127 --> 0:01:48.047 which is seriously affecting retail profitability. So this was in 0:01:48.087 --> 0:01:50.847 a report from the Telegraph UK this week and it 0:01:50.887 --> 0:01:55.047 was revealed that gen Z's are sending back almost seven 0:01:55.527 --> 0:02:00.047 million pounds worth of items a year. Why are they 0:02:00.047 --> 0:02:03.567 doing this? Because of the surgeon popularity in the clothing 0:02:03.647 --> 0:02:06.887 hall whereby you buy a bunch of clothes. Some of 0:02:06.927 --> 0:02:09.967 them are actually the same items, but they're in different colors, sizes, 0:02:10.287 --> 0:02:13.207 and you try them on on TikTok, so you get 0:02:13.207 --> 0:02:15.447 a big bag. I've seen this and like they tried on, 0:02:15.527 --> 0:02:16.327 They're like should I keep this? 0:02:16.487 --> 0:02:16.767 I not? 0:02:17.407 --> 0:02:19.967 And then whatever you don't want you just send it 0:02:20.007 --> 0:02:22.967 all back. So why is that a problem? Well, it's 0:02:23.007 --> 0:02:27.007 putting an unprecedented strain on retailers. According to Richard Limb, 0:02:27.007 --> 0:02:30.447 who's the chief executive of Retail Economics, someone has to 0:02:30.487 --> 0:02:33.887 process all of these returns. ASOS said last year that 0:02:33.967 --> 0:02:38.767 frequent returners were costing them six pounds per order. What's that, Holly, 0:02:38.887 --> 0:02:41.687 twelve dollars. Twelve dollars pretty much with some of those 0:02:41.727 --> 0:02:44.607 customers ordering two or three times a month and then 0:02:44.647 --> 0:02:49.287 returning ninety percent of what they received. Ninety percent is 0:02:49.287 --> 0:02:52.887 what they're returning. M Are you a serial returner? You're young, 0:02:52.927 --> 0:02:53.607 You're cue. 0:02:53.647 --> 0:02:57.447 I used to be a serial returner. When I was younger, 0:02:57.487 --> 0:03:00.047 I would buy like I would usually be with pants 0:03:00.047 --> 0:03:01.967 and jeans because I'm like a different size in every 0:03:02.007 --> 0:03:04.047 gene and I love online shopping, so I'd buy like 0:03:04.407 --> 0:03:08.287 jeans that were different sizes, like a size a same gene, 0:03:08.447 --> 0:03:11.927 size eight ten, going there a shin No, that's a 0:03:11.927 --> 0:03:12.687 whole other convention. 0:03:12.767 --> 0:03:13.487 But I stopped. 0:03:13.527 --> 0:03:16.167 I stopped doing this because a few years ago I 0:03:16.207 --> 0:03:19.167 actually interviewed New South Wales Young Australian of the Year 0:03:19.407 --> 0:03:23.727 Lotty dl. She was a sustainability educator and she taught 0:03:23.727 --> 0:03:26.847 me about bracketing. Have you heard about this, Yeoh, So 0:03:27.207 --> 0:03:30.887 racketing is labeled as fashions hidden returns problem, and it 0:03:30.967 --> 0:03:34.687 shows that the chances of the clothes being returned very 0:03:34.767 --> 0:03:37.487 rarely do they end up back on the shelves, and 0:03:37.527 --> 0:03:39.607 I think it's because of this economic stuff. So firstly 0:03:39.607 --> 0:03:42.247 with carbon, like you're creating carbon by getting the packages 0:03:42.287 --> 0:03:44.927 sent to you creating carbon by delivering it back. But 0:03:45.007 --> 0:03:47.287 it also with some brands, depending on the brand and 0:03:47.327 --> 0:03:50.207 the value of the clothes, it sometimes costs them less 0:03:50.527 --> 0:03:54.927 to send it to landfill rather than repackaging, washing, resealing, 0:03:55.007 --> 0:03:56.887 putting it back on the website and selling it again. 0:03:56.967 --> 0:03:59.447 Oh my god, I've heard that it is like less 0:03:59.447 --> 0:04:02.767 than fifty percent get back on so it can take 0:04:02.807 --> 0:04:05.487 a long time. So even it's kind of like maybe 0:04:05.487 --> 0:04:07.007 they're not even selling it by the time you get 0:04:07.007 --> 0:04:08.927 back with a lot of the really fast fashion ones. 0:04:09.247 --> 0:04:10.967 And then even if they do resell it, it's like 0:04:11.407 --> 0:04:13.767 they take the plastic away, they put it in new plastic, 0:04:14.167 --> 0:04:16.087 and then yeah, once you put it in a truck 0:04:16.087 --> 0:04:18.847 and a blar and a bla. They've gotten better at 0:04:18.847 --> 0:04:22.367 the sustainability of sending it out, but they've not gotten 0:04:22.367 --> 0:04:24.367 better at the sustainability of sending it back. 0:04:24.367 --> 0:04:28.767 I have so many questions because sending anything back is 0:04:28.807 --> 0:04:31.927 my worst night. There are things in my wardrobe that 0:04:31.967 --> 0:04:34.967 I should have sent back, like shoes that don't quite fit. 0:04:35.607 --> 0:04:40.607 But just the process, like the admin involved in like repackaging, 0:04:40.727 --> 0:04:42.647 go to the post office, da da da da dah, 0:04:42.727 --> 0:04:45.247 Like why don't they they wouldn't it be easier to 0:04:45.287 --> 0:04:46.887 just go to a shop and walk into a chaine 0:04:46.967 --> 0:04:48.447 room and try on three pairs of jeans. 0:04:48.967 --> 0:04:51.207 No, because then sometimes when you've had LUNs, you can't 0:04:51.247 --> 0:04:53.727 try jeans and you need to wait until you get 0:04:53.767 --> 0:04:56.247 your package. You get your package and then you're like, okay, 0:04:56.287 --> 0:04:57.887 now it's a good time to try these jeans on. 0:04:58.047 --> 0:04:59.807 I also think it's because a lot of brands now 0:04:59.807 --> 0:05:02.527 are doing free returns, so they made it quite well. 0:05:02.567 --> 0:05:04.727 They know because they know that this is a thing. 0:05:04.607 --> 0:05:07.247 And really and really long, like sometimes it's a month 0:05:07.367 --> 0:05:09.847 or two months that you've got to re which is 0:05:09.887 --> 0:05:10.287 really good. 0:05:10.367 --> 0:05:12.967 So on the like TikTok's side, like you're saying that 0:05:13.007 --> 0:05:14.767 we're costing you a lot, but then you're making it 0:05:14.807 --> 0:05:16.127 really cheap for us to do it. 0:05:16.287 --> 0:05:19.127 Which is do it clearly because it's such a pool 0:05:19.167 --> 0:05:21.447 for the consumer. Like I won't buy something online if 0:05:21.447 --> 0:05:24.287 that's not returns. Yeah, right, and especially I check for 0:05:24.287 --> 0:05:27.047 free returns because that is like so appealing to me. 0:05:27.447 --> 0:05:29.447 But I went into a post office recently to. 0:05:29.367 --> 0:05:30.167 Pick up a package. 0:05:30.207 --> 0:05:31.647 Don't even get me started on having to go to 0:05:31.687 --> 0:05:33.647 a post office to pick something up. But I was 0:05:33.687 --> 0:05:37.167 in there, all young women, all with bags. I just went, 0:05:37.207 --> 0:05:39.047 this is so interesting because young people weren't in. 0:05:39.047 --> 0:05:40.567 The post office ten years ago. 0:05:40.967 --> 0:05:43.167 I swear Australia post was like, what are we going 0:05:43.247 --> 0:05:44.687 to do now that email's here? 0:05:45.807 --> 0:05:49.047 And then young women were like, We've got you, We 0:05:49.127 --> 0:05:49.607 have got you. 0:05:50.327 --> 0:05:53.487 Who appears the most on your Instagram feed or your 0:05:53.527 --> 0:05:57.127 Facebook timeline? Even? Is it your buddies, your parents, your babies, 0:05:57.167 --> 0:05:59.327 your pets? Is it you? In a date book of 0:05:59.367 --> 0:06:03.767 birthday dinners, work promotions and assorted life lately updates? Do 0:06:03.807 --> 0:06:06.927 you post more or less about the people you like 0:06:07.047 --> 0:06:09.847 the most or about the people you'd like others to 0:06:10.007 --> 0:06:13.247 think you like the most? I think the answer to 0:06:13.327 --> 0:06:16.847 these questions varies depending on your age, your job, your 0:06:16.887 --> 0:06:20.847 life stage. But what I'd never considered until this very morning, 0:06:20.887 --> 0:06:23.247 when Emily Vernon brought it up to me, is that 0:06:23.247 --> 0:06:25.967 there might be a person or people in my life 0:06:26.047 --> 0:06:28.767 and yours who are offended that they're not on your 0:06:28.767 --> 0:06:33.807 grid more or at all. M tell me about the 0:06:33.927 --> 0:06:35.367 secret Mistress friend. 0:06:35.807 --> 0:06:40.087 So I came across this TikTok by this user named Lucy, 0:06:40.367 --> 0:06:42.407 and there was a piece to camera and she seemed 0:06:42.407 --> 0:06:46.327 a bit upset. She said, that is anyone else the 0:06:46.447 --> 0:06:47.847 secret Mistress friend? 0:06:48.087 --> 0:06:51.047 I'm the one that will do all the emotional regulation 0:06:51.327 --> 0:06:53.927 and do all of the therapy sessions and be there 0:06:53.967 --> 0:06:58.007 twenty four fucking seven, but then not post about, not mentioned, 0:06:58.087 --> 0:06:59.367 no fucking birthday. 0:06:59.007 --> 0:07:02.967 Things, nothing, And it feels like that she's living in 0:07:03.047 --> 0:07:07.647 like the secret compartment of their life, like she's a mistress. 0:07:07.287 --> 0:07:09.807 Like secret sector. Remember that episode, you know the how everything. 0:07:09.807 --> 0:07:11.567 Obviously I have to bring back to an episode of 0:07:11.607 --> 0:07:15.567 Sex and the City, because because I do secret sex, 0:07:15.687 --> 0:07:17.967 was this episode where it was people who you were 0:07:17.967 --> 0:07:19.887 in a relationship with. I bet you would have some 0:07:19.927 --> 0:07:22.167 stories about this to him, but you're not ready for 0:07:22.247 --> 0:07:24.167 anyone to know that you are yet. So it's like 0:07:24.287 --> 0:07:26.247 and sometimes it's you who's the secret sex and you 0:07:26.287 --> 0:07:28.407 find that they're taking you to a restaurant that's like 0:07:29.007 --> 0:07:31.487 really out of the way where they know they're not 0:07:31.487 --> 0:07:34.767 going to see anyone they know. It's almost like the 0:07:34.927 --> 0:07:38.967 modern day friendship equivalent of that. But here's what I 0:07:39.007 --> 0:07:41.887 didn't understand, because one of the things that I thought 0:07:42.167 --> 0:07:44.487 is that if I'm out for dinner with my girlfriends 0:07:44.527 --> 0:07:46.807 and we're having a really nice night, I don't post 0:07:46.887 --> 0:07:48.807 about that. That's not the kind of thing I post about. 0:07:48.887 --> 0:07:50.687 So your friends are your secret mistress. 0:07:50.887 --> 0:07:55.087 Yeah, I assume that they all know that our friendship 0:07:55.127 --> 0:07:58.327 does not need to be performed. But now I think, 0:07:58.407 --> 0:08:00.727 did they think that I am keeping them secret? 0:08:00.807 --> 0:08:01.007 Yeah? 0:08:01.007 --> 0:08:03.527 They one hundred percent do. Because you can't go to 0:08:03.607 --> 0:08:06.687 dinner with your friend not post them, or even worse, 0:08:06.767 --> 0:08:09.207 post the dinner but not tag them and not show them, 0:08:10.127 --> 0:08:12.327 and then the next day go to dinner with me 0:08:12.407 --> 0:08:14.247 and Jesse and then post us and tag. 0:08:14.127 --> 0:08:16.887 Have you ever been to a dinner where some people 0:08:16.887 --> 0:08:18.647 from the dinner go off and take photos and then 0:08:18.647 --> 0:08:19.047 post it. 0:08:20.967 --> 0:08:23.687 No one does that, I like in the bathroom it. 0:08:23.687 --> 0:08:25.847 Yes, I've experienced it, and I've been like, oh, I 0:08:26.127 --> 0:08:29.967 mind the table, We're taking the pictures to mark my dinner, 0:08:29.967 --> 0:08:30.367 and I'm. 0:08:30.247 --> 0:08:31.207 Like can I have a tag? 0:08:32.927 --> 0:08:34.247 People really do that? 0:08:34.487 --> 0:08:37.887 Yeah, because I think that they know they're the photo people. 0:08:38.007 --> 0:08:39.727 They know I'm not the photo person that if they 0:08:39.727 --> 0:08:41.567 asked me, I'd make it weird and I'd be awkward 0:08:41.607 --> 0:08:42.887 and I don't know how to pose and I'd rather 0:08:42.967 --> 0:08:43.767 just sit there and. 0:08:43.727 --> 0:08:45.487 Are you okay with not being the photo person? 0:08:45.767 --> 0:08:47.127 Yeah? I am. 0:08:47.447 --> 0:08:49.887 It's funny because me, it's talked on this show before 0:08:49.967 --> 0:08:52.847 about how she feels like social media at the moment 0:08:52.927 --> 0:08:57.287 is leaking intimacy in certain experiences that we're having, whether 0:08:57.327 --> 0:08:59.527 it's with our family or our friends or holidays or whatever. 0:08:59.567 --> 0:09:03.127 There's this I don't know, it feels transgressive to go, 0:09:03.207 --> 0:09:06.327 I'm not going to post like it feels countercultural. I 0:09:06.327 --> 0:09:09.487 think especially for maybe Gen X and millennial women who 0:09:09.487 --> 0:09:12.967 have come up with this big revolution in media. Like 0:09:13.007 --> 0:09:15.807 I still remember the Facebook. We would go out clubbing 0:09:16.047 --> 0:09:16.887 and I would have my. 0:09:17.247 --> 0:09:18.527 Digital camera, digital camera. 0:09:19.527 --> 0:09:20.447 Yeah, I would make head. 0:09:20.367 --> 0:09:21.847 I would make Friday Nights. 0:09:21.887 --> 0:09:24.447 I would make multiple Facebook albums and it would be 0:09:24.487 --> 0:09:26.247 of a shoe and it would be of a blur 0:09:26.367 --> 0:09:28.967 and it was like there was no such thing as intimacy. 0:09:29.007 --> 0:09:32.487 That now I'm just like, it's like a hangover. I 0:09:32.607 --> 0:09:34.807 read someone refer to it as like an immune response 0:09:35.127 --> 0:09:37.487 to that that the body is just kind of like 0:09:37.567 --> 0:09:41.847 I need to keep you away, and the internet oscillates, 0:09:41.967 --> 0:09:45.487 I think, very quickly between kind of like overexposure and 0:09:45.527 --> 0:09:48.927 then pulling it all back. So there's this new trend 0:09:48.967 --> 0:09:52.007 of the no grid, like people are taking away their 0:09:52.487 --> 0:09:54.967 their grids or deleting their whole grids. And I've noticed 0:09:55.007 --> 0:09:58.167 that with nearly every gen Z I follow, if I 0:09:58.247 --> 0:10:00.647 go on to their account, they've got like six or 0:10:00.647 --> 0:10:04.767 seven photos, like they don't have this sprawling grid which 0:10:05.167 --> 0:10:07.287 I do of every thing I've ever posted. I didn't 0:10:07.327 --> 0:10:08.527 realize you could take it away. 0:10:08.647 --> 0:10:10.607 I didn't know that was an option. I thought that 0:10:10.687 --> 0:10:13.607 the whole point was this is a record of my life, 0:10:14.167 --> 0:10:17.447 and to delete anything from it would be to deny 0:10:17.847 --> 0:10:18.847 a moment in time. 0:10:19.207 --> 0:10:25.047 I thought, anytime I've seen someone, if Maya deleted her grid, 0:10:25.607 --> 0:10:27.367 I would call her on the phone, which I never do, 0:10:27.407 --> 0:10:29.287 and I would say, are you having an identity crisis? 0:10:29.327 --> 0:10:31.407 I would think that she was in a moment of 0:10:31.487 --> 0:10:34.007 profound crisis and she needed a welfare check if she 0:10:34.047 --> 0:10:34.607 deleted it. 0:10:34.887 --> 0:10:36.447 But the Genza heads are just like. 0:10:36.407 --> 0:10:39.767 What even is identity? What is fixed? And I'm like, 0:10:40.127 --> 0:10:41.807 what you can't just break the rule? 0:10:41.967 --> 0:10:45.127 Okay, but there's a conflict here because you're saying it's 0:10:45.207 --> 0:10:47.327 not cool to post a lot, but you're telling me 0:10:47.447 --> 0:10:49.327 em that if you go out for a girl's dinner 0:10:49.367 --> 0:10:52.727 and it is not posted, then that's somehow slight. I'm 0:10:52.727 --> 0:10:55.607 not never posted. To me if I'm having dinner with 0:10:55.647 --> 0:10:57.567 my girlfriend's on like a random if it's birthday or 0:10:57.607 --> 0:11:01.127 something different, but like a random Thursday night pastor, it 0:11:01.127 --> 0:11:03.167 wouldn't even occur to me that I should post that. 0:11:03.287 --> 0:11:05.807 No, it's not like post it in general. It's more 0:11:05.927 --> 0:11:08.127 like if there's a group of your friends that you 0:11:08.327 --> 0:11:11.927 don't post o other people, so you're still posting, but 0:11:12.127 --> 0:11:15.447 only certain people. And it's the friends that who don't 0:11:15.487 --> 0:11:17.807 get posted, who are like what the hell? Like I 0:11:17.847 --> 0:11:20.647 see you once a week, we have beautiful dinners, we 0:11:20.767 --> 0:11:22.807 hang out all the time. I put makeup on, I 0:11:22.887 --> 0:11:25.207 dress up for you, and not once have I appeared 0:11:25.207 --> 0:11:27.047 on your grid. People don't even know we're friends. 0:11:27.087 --> 0:11:29.047 Why do you want people to know your friends? 0:11:29.087 --> 0:11:31.127 Because then people ask are you still friends with so 0:11:31.247 --> 0:11:32.847 and so? I haven't seen them on your. 0:11:32.687 --> 0:11:35.927 Instagram, so it is a document of your life, like 0:11:36.087 --> 0:11:37.167 it is, what's like, what. 0:11:37.167 --> 0:11:39.887 Will happen if, like, I still don't understand the leaking 0:11:39.927 --> 0:11:43.087 of intimacy, because what will happen if you do post 0:11:43.167 --> 0:11:44.567 those photos with your friends? 0:11:44.607 --> 0:11:47.607 Well, I think the problem is is that people begin 0:11:47.807 --> 0:11:53.287 to struggle with every social event and friendship moment being 0:11:53.487 --> 0:11:56.687 for the grid. Right, So let's talk about Thursday night, 0:11:56.727 --> 0:11:59.047 pasta dinner. Right, you know, we're all talking, we're just 0:11:59.047 --> 0:12:01.167 having a good time, it's an ordinary night. At what 0:12:01.247 --> 0:12:03.967 point are we all like photo time? And then we're 0:12:03.967 --> 0:12:06.487 all who's approving this picture? Like do you like how 0:12:06.527 --> 0:12:08.127 you look? And do you look like how you look? 0:12:08.127 --> 0:12:10.047 And do we tag the restaurant? Not tag the restaurant? 0:12:10.047 --> 0:12:11.647 And I always take the restaurant. I don't know where 0:12:11.647 --> 0:12:13.047 you're going? And then we're. 0:12:12.927 --> 0:12:17.607 Very like I feel like that changes the purpose and 0:12:17.647 --> 0:12:20.007 the dynamic of the evening, right, And the and the 0:12:20.047 --> 0:12:22.567 thing that people begin to panic about about intimacy leak 0:12:22.767 --> 0:12:25.727 is are we performing going out for dinner with our 0:12:25.767 --> 0:12:28.007 friends rather than just going out for dinner with our friends? 0:12:28.047 --> 0:12:29.407 And I think because. 0:12:29.207 --> 0:12:30.607 That takes you out of the moment. 0:12:30.767 --> 0:12:33.847 Yeah, And it's to me. It's like, say, it's my 0:12:33.887 --> 0:12:35.567 friend's birthday and we go out for dinner and I 0:12:35.607 --> 0:12:38.087 post about it and I'm like, happy birthday, Betty. You 0:12:38.127 --> 0:12:42.167 know that's my act of like appreciation of Betty. But 0:12:42.207 --> 0:12:45.847 hopefully she already knows that I appreciate her Like that 0:12:45.967 --> 0:12:47.687 isn't my real life, do you know what I mean? 0:12:47.727 --> 0:12:50.367 My grid and my feed is not my real life. 0:12:50.407 --> 0:12:52.887 But it doesn't have to be like a pose photo, 0:12:53.007 --> 0:12:55.327 like a curated photo. It can be like a blurry 0:12:55.327 --> 0:12:57.687 photo of your pasta while you're eating it, and I 0:12:57.727 --> 0:12:59.527 just want to see the list of your friends that 0:12:59.527 --> 0:13:02.287 you're with in the tag, but just so I can 0:13:02.367 --> 0:13:05.127 stalk them, especially if they're hot. If they're a hot friend, 0:13:05.247 --> 0:13:05.927 I definitely need. 0:13:06.327 --> 0:13:10.447 It's totally so, say my daughter, who growing up in 0:13:10.487 --> 0:13:12.567 the world of snap maps, did they have snap maps 0:13:12.607 --> 0:13:15.167 around when you were didn't have right, So it is 0:13:15.287 --> 0:13:18.327 so normal for you for the idea of like who 0:13:18.327 --> 0:13:20.887 are you with? Where are you? I need to know 0:13:21.047 --> 0:13:24.087 all interesting that so and so wasn't there, like. 0:13:24.167 --> 0:13:26.447 I just and they wanted to disappear, which is what 0:13:26.487 --> 0:13:29.127 Snapchat realized really early on, which is why the grid 0:13:29.207 --> 0:13:32.727 is gone. The grid is gone because younger people don't 0:13:32.727 --> 0:13:35.447 want that footprint. They've seen it happen enough that it 0:13:35.447 --> 0:13:38.487 comes back to bite you, like she wants to. 0:13:38.527 --> 0:13:39.847 Know happy with my story. 0:13:40.087 --> 0:13:41.807 It's happy with a story that's twenty four hours. 0:13:42.087 --> 0:13:44.807 She's happy with the story impermanent. Yes. 0:13:44.847 --> 0:13:47.607 And what I think you're also speaking to is the 0:13:47.607 --> 0:13:50.527 photo dump, which is another trend which there was an 0:13:50.567 --> 0:13:53.727 article recently in The New Yorker about this. What we 0:13:53.807 --> 0:13:56.167 do online is completely shaped by the algorithm. It's not, 0:13:56.407 --> 0:13:58.527 you know, just people deciding all of a sudden they'd 0:13:58.567 --> 0:14:01.167 like to post twenty photos. But in August, I think 0:14:01.247 --> 0:14:04.207 Instagram went from letting you post ten photos to letting 0:14:04.207 --> 0:14:07.407 you post twenty. And you remember j Loo just after 0:14:07.447 --> 0:14:11.407 Ben posted sixteen, and it is like all these oh 0:14:11.447 --> 0:14:14.487 what a summer, and she posted all these random things. 0:14:15.447 --> 0:14:18.487 And I think that what Instagram has become is less 0:14:18.607 --> 0:14:21.687 like here's my friends at dinner, and more about here's 0:14:21.687 --> 0:14:24.287 a vibe, like I'm gonna sprinkle these things and give 0:14:24.327 --> 0:14:27.647 you a sense of my month, rather than like the 0:14:27.807 --> 0:14:31.767 images that are like opposed the you know, twenty to 0:14:31.847 --> 0:14:35.127 fifteen influencer posing in a bikini not getting any traction. 0:14:35.527 --> 0:14:39.487 What is some chaotic, as a young person would say, 0:14:39.687 --> 0:14:44.247 cooked carousel of like a dinner and a blurred this, 0:14:44.567 --> 0:14:46.807 and there's a bonfire and there's half your friend's leg 0:14:46.927 --> 0:14:49.567 and that's like yeah, and it's the end of month 0:14:50.007 --> 0:14:51.327 dump situation. 0:14:51.087 --> 0:14:54.167 Yeah, or end of week. Like I really respect the 0:14:54.167 --> 0:14:56.767 photo dumb because I get like a weekly recap of 0:14:56.807 --> 0:14:59.447 like everyone's big week, and it needs to be chaotic 0:14:59.447 --> 0:15:01.487 and it needs to be from your POV and I 0:15:01.527 --> 0:15:03.727 need to see the world through your eyes, so it 0:15:03.767 --> 0:15:06.767 can't be curated, it can't be edited. What happened is 0:15:06.767 --> 0:15:09.927 that the celebrities and the rich people got hold of 0:15:09.967 --> 0:15:12.367 the photo dump and they tried to do it as well. 0:15:12.407 --> 0:15:14.487 They tried to be like, yeah, look at me, casual, cool, 0:15:14.647 --> 0:15:17.967 but in the corner you're like that's a chandelier. You're like, 0:15:18.047 --> 0:15:21.127 that's a very expensive candle. And what they've done now 0:15:21.207 --> 0:15:23.527 is that they've led us into this huge world that 0:15:23.567 --> 0:15:25.887 we never had access before. So now we're just like 0:15:25.927 --> 0:15:28.927 perving on all of these lives and they don't realize, 0:15:29.007 --> 0:15:31.727 like you were saying before, how intimate these dumps actually are. 0:15:31.967 --> 0:15:36.007 I love a further dump twenty photos thirty Furtosire give 0:15:36.087 --> 0:15:38.567 me all of them. It's time efficient, so I only 0:15:38.607 --> 0:15:40.687 have to look at your thing once rather than I 0:15:40.727 --> 0:15:43.127 have to keep going. And I love that thing of 0:15:43.127 --> 0:15:45.767 what do you choose? Because when I used to do 0:15:46.287 --> 0:15:47.847 my best and worst of the week, I used to 0:15:47.887 --> 0:15:49.567 do on a Saturday morning, I'd do ten and it 0:15:49.567 --> 0:15:52.607 would always be like, actually that was because you could 0:15:52.607 --> 0:15:57.607 only do ten. Like what you choose is really interesting, 0:15:57.647 --> 0:15:59.567 because that's the whole point of curation, right. It's like, 0:15:59.647 --> 0:16:02.407 there could be everything in the world, but what would 0:16:02.447 --> 0:16:05.927 I choose to celebrate or highlight or whatever. And in 0:16:05.967 --> 0:16:08.727 that instance, Thursday night dinner might make it in right, 0:16:09.367 --> 0:16:11.287 like all Monday night movie club that I do with 0:16:11.367 --> 0:16:14.207 Jesse and Meha. And I know I have this much 0:16:14.327 --> 0:16:17.727 mocked like obsession with privacy, which is funny for someone 0:16:17.807 --> 0:16:19.967 who lives a lot of their life publicly. But it's 0:16:20.007 --> 0:16:23.207 that idea of if I thought that people were looking 0:16:23.247 --> 0:16:24.767 to see who I was going out for dinner with 0:16:24.807 --> 0:16:27.487 and wondering why Sally wasn't there on Wednesday, like that 0:16:27.527 --> 0:16:29.327 would really stress me out a lot. 0:16:29.527 --> 0:16:30.447 Why wasn't she there? 0:16:31.687 --> 0:16:32.527 You find to hide? 0:16:32.567 --> 0:16:33.567 You need to know. 0:16:33.847 --> 0:16:35.807 I'm going to be in the comics at Sally if 0:16:35.847 --> 0:16:36.527 we're here. 0:16:37.167 --> 0:16:40.127 The other thing with the not posting the friends, right, 0:16:40.527 --> 0:16:42.847 And I thought when I watched that TikTok video was 0:16:43.687 --> 0:16:48.207 there's this evolution of Internet slash social media that I 0:16:48.247 --> 0:16:51.647 was reading about, which is I guess the niche right, 0:16:51.887 --> 0:16:54.927 So and TikTok has shaped this, but I think it's 0:16:54.967 --> 0:16:58.407 sort of in every platform to varying degrees. Is that 0:16:58.847 --> 0:17:00.967 when I turned up to Facebook, and when I turned 0:17:01.047 --> 0:17:02.967 up to MySpace, and when I first turned up to Instagram, 0:17:03.007 --> 0:17:05.567 I brought my whole self. I brought my parents, I 0:17:05.607 --> 0:17:07.647 brought my friends, I brought my pets, and I brought 0:17:07.647 --> 0:17:09.847 my job, and I brought everything. Now there's this thing 0:17:09.887 --> 0:17:12.847 where it's like, what actually works best in terms of 0:17:13.087 --> 0:17:16.087 content creation because a lot of this is being monetized 0:17:16.247 --> 0:17:19.287 is Jesse does this on the Internet. So I'm gonna 0:17:19.287 --> 0:17:21.407 show you what I do when Jesse does a podcast 0:17:21.567 --> 0:17:23.167 and you don't get access to me on the weekend. 0:17:23.767 --> 0:17:26.327 And that I think I'm seeing that increasingly, even with 0:17:26.407 --> 0:17:30.287 like really public figures, they're going no, I'm not gonna 0:17:30.327 --> 0:17:32.247 leak that, and I'm not gonna leak that. I'm gonna 0:17:32.287 --> 0:17:35.567 have a certain part of myself that's for the public, 0:17:35.967 --> 0:17:38.447 and then who I have dinner with on a Monday 0:17:38.527 --> 0:17:39.367 is none of your business. 0:17:39.407 --> 0:17:41.967 So do you use your Instagram more like a LinkedIn? Yes, 0:17:42.247 --> 0:17:43.247 like a social LinkedIn? 0:17:43.607 --> 0:17:45.247 Yes? Absolutely? Absolutely. 0:17:45.327 --> 0:17:47.087 Do you have a private Instagram like a Finster? 0:17:47.607 --> 0:17:49.327 I don't, But I was reading about this because I 0:17:49.367 --> 0:17:51.007 was thinking, Oh, all the gen Z's I know have 0:17:51.087 --> 0:17:55.967 deleted their grid, and I was like, because I guarantee 0:17:55.967 --> 0:17:58.727 they have some Finsta with their photo dumps and with 0:17:58.807 --> 0:18:01.767 all their like I don't know, hot like posy photos 0:18:01.807 --> 0:18:04.887 or whatever, I'm certainly not getting them. But that's apparently 0:18:04.927 --> 0:18:07.167 what gen Z's are doing more and more is they're 0:18:07.207 --> 0:18:09.887 going because the thing about Instagram that because it's got 0:18:09.887 --> 0:18:12.807 the public private settings, it was also for everyone. Like 0:18:12.847 --> 0:18:15.527 I've always been aware on Instagram that it's not just 0:18:15.567 --> 0:18:19.807 people who know me. Anyone can come across you and 0:18:19.847 --> 0:18:21.927