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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mama Maya acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast

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Speaker 1: is recorded on From I'm mea Friedman. You're listening to

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Speaker 1: the No Filter podcast. And I like leaderboards. I honestly

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Speaker 1: find them quite an objective way to understand priorities, like

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Speaker 1: where things fit in order. And if there was a

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Speaker 1: leaderboard of relationships in order of how much society values them,

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Speaker 1: I think we can all agree that romantic relationships would

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Speaker 1: be at the top. Next would be parent child relationships,

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Speaker 1: and then maybe siblings and lastly friendships. Why is that, though,

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Speaker 1: Why aren't friendships given more respect? Why aren't they higher

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Speaker 1: on the leaderboard? Think about it. So much of our

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Speaker 1: lives are organized around romantic milestones. First dates, first kisses,

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Speaker 1: first sex, first anniversary, moving in, getting engaged. They are

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Speaker 1: all dots on the map leading towards that ultimate milestone

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Speaker 1: at the top of the leaderboard, marriage. Everywhere you look,

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Speaker 1: our culture tells you that finding a romantic partner is

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Speaker 1: the ultimate achievement in life, and it's the most important

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Speaker 1: relationship you'll ever have. And it simply understood that all

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Speaker 1: of your other relationships must automatically shuffle down and make

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Speaker 1: room or recede from your life when a significant other

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Speaker 1: enters the picture. But what if your significant other was

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Speaker 1: your friend, someone you love and prioritize as much as

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Speaker 1: you would a romantic partner, just without the sex. I

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Speaker 1: don't mean in that hole my husband is my best

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Speaker 1: friend kind of way that's become almost compulsory in modern

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Speaker 1: romantic relationships. I mean, what if you had a friendship

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Speaker 1: which was so important to you that it's sat at

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Speaker 1: the top of the leaderboard and above every other relationship

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Speaker 1: in your life, including romantic ones, they all came under it.

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Speaker 1: Today you're going to meet someone who has posed a

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Speaker 1: radical question, what if our significant other was a friend,

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Speaker 1: and what if we organized our life around that friendship

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Speaker 1: in the same way as we would a romantic partner.

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Speaker 1: In a moment, you're going to hear about some friends

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Speaker 1: like that. There's Andrew and Tolly, Natasha and Linda, Tilly

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Speaker 1: and Cammi, and there is also my guest today, Raina

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Speaker 1: Cohen and her friend em Rainer is an author, podcaster,

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Speaker 1: and an editor, and she's written a book about this

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Speaker 1: type of friendship that transcends the category of best friend.

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Speaker 1: It's something else entirely now. Not everyone has experienced a

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Speaker 1: friendship like this, and if you have, it might not

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Speaker 1: have lasted forever. I've experienced a couple of friendships like

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Speaker 1: this and they haven't lasted. But look, marriages don't last

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Speaker 1: necessarily either, and yet we're expected to always let roman

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Speaker 1: anti partners jump the queue and elbow everyone else in

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Speaker 1: our lives out of the way when they show up. Right,

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Speaker 1: What if we didn't?

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Speaker 2: Though?

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Speaker 1: Here's Ryana Cohen. I want to start with M and

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Speaker 1: how you met your friend, who you referred to as

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Speaker 1: M in your book. Can you tell me a little

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Speaker 1: bit about where you were at in your life when

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Speaker 1: you met her and how your friendship sort of unfolded.

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Speaker 3: So I had moved to Washington, d C. Which is

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Speaker 3: where I now live, but at the time that I

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Speaker 3: met EM, i'd only been there for a few months.

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Speaker 3: I had started a new job, my first kind of

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Speaker 3: like real job post grad school. I had a life,

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Speaker 3: but I also had space, which I think is really

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Speaker 3: key part of what unfolded, which is EM and I

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Speaker 3: met at a friend of a friend's birthday. You know,

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Speaker 3: you go to anybody's birthday party when you don't know

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Speaker 3: people that well in a city yet, and I spotted

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Speaker 3: M across the room, and even before getting to talk

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Speaker 3: to her, I kind of had a sense I wanted

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Speaker 3: to talk to this person because of her body language,

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Speaker 3: and when we did talk, we just really clicked and discovered.

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Speaker 3: Pretty soon after that, we lived a five minute walk

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Speaker 3: from each other, so we became really integrated into each

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Speaker 3: other's lives. And she hadn't been in DC for that long.

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Speaker 3: She had broken up with someone she'd been in a

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Speaker 3: relationship with not that long before that, so neither of

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Speaker 3: us had really built kind of full flourishing communities yet,

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Speaker 3: and we were able to act essentially as partners to

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Speaker 3: each other. I was also in a romantic relationship, but

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Speaker 3: my now husband was a six hour train ride away

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Speaker 3: from me, so we saw each other every other weekend.

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Speaker 3: I still was tending to my romantic relationship, but I

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Speaker 3: wasn't living with him. I had again space for other

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Speaker 3: close connections in my life.

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Speaker 1: You talk about that first night that you and M met,

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Speaker 1: and it does sound like a make cute, like the

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Speaker 1: beginning of a relationship, right, And then you kept talking

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Speaker 1: and kept talking, and then you said em had no chill.

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Speaker 1: Was she texting you you like, let's say each other

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Speaker 1: the next day, like, how did things escalate?

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Speaker 3: I think I also have no chill, but I sometimes

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Speaker 3: am able to hide theme or I become like self

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Speaker 3: conscious about the fact that I have no chill, and

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Speaker 3: then you know, try not to tell everybody like how

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Speaker 3: excited I am about them. Often this is in a

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Speaker 3: friendship context, and I think, like, I'm just not that

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Speaker 3: concerned with what people think in this aspect of life.

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Speaker 3: I think more than texting, she'd sent me voice memos,

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Speaker 3: and I had never gotten voice memos from people before,

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Speaker 3: even though I work in audio. It's kind of funny,

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Speaker 3: like I know, people's voices are so powerful to hear.

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Speaker 3: But she would just send me these mean during voice

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Speaker 3: memos while she was on a walk, and that was

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Speaker 3: a really major mode of communication for us, and it

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Speaker 3: just was part of my routine to and from the metro.

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Speaker 3: I would send her a voice memo. We were just

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Speaker 3: both I think, really hungry to learn about the other

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Speaker 3: person and did not shy away from that fact. But

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Speaker 3: I think it helped actually that we lived near each other,

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Speaker 3: because we had all these excuses for run ins. We

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Speaker 3: didn't have to schedule like we are going to plan

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Speaker 3: to see each other three times a week after having

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Speaker 3: just met. Like that might sound a little bit extreme,

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Speaker 3: but if we are walking by each other's place anyway,

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Speaker 3: why not stop by, why not have you know, a

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Speaker 3: silent and reading note together, or you know whatever. It was.

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Speaker 3: So it was the combination of the excuse from living

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Speaker 3: near each other and then EM's willingness to just reach

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Speaker 3: out and not feel like maybe it would seems over

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Speaker 3: the top. It gave me permission also to do the same.

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Speaker 1: I often think about some of my most intense friendships,

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Speaker 1: which is pretty common to women, was when I was younger,

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Speaker 1: when I was at school, primary school, high school, and

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Speaker 1: then you do a lot of just hanging out. When

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Speaker 1: you become an adult and you make friends as an

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Speaker 1: adult or you have friends that you've already got, you

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Speaker 1: have to make a time. It's usually around a meal really,

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Speaker 1: like you have dinner together, or you have a drink together,

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Speaker 1: or you have breakfast together. But the real friendships, one

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Speaker 1: of the things that I miss a lot is just

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Speaker 1: that hanging out time where you can both be sort

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Speaker 1: of sitting on your phones or just you don't have

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Speaker 1: to have that intensity of the you know, ninety minute

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Speaker 1: catch up over dinner kind of thing. It sounds like

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Speaker 1: that's what you and m did a lot of.

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Speaker 3: We were just able to coexist in each other's lives.

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Speaker 3: And I've actually can separate from the whole story with

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Speaker 3: the book, like I've written about what adults can learn

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Speaker 3: from kids friendships, and it's really so much of what

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Speaker 3: you're describing that there is no agenda. When I was

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Speaker 3: a kid and playing outside with my friends or stopping

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Speaker 3: in a common space in college, and that's where you

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Speaker 3: end up, like forming a lot of memories and you

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Speaker 3: know what I had with em and when I had

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Speaker 3: in these earlier relationships that are it's harder to replicate

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Speaker 3: as an adult. Is living your life alongside your friends

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Speaker 3: rather than narrating your life after you've done it.

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Speaker 1: Oh, explain that. Explain that if.

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Speaker 3: I haven't seen a friend in a few weeks and

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Speaker 3: we have dinner together, we are catching each other up

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Speaker 3: and the parts of life happened. This happened, yes, you know,

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Speaker 3: and maybe if you can avoid some of that by

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Speaker 3: keeping in touched by a text, sending videos so on.

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Speaker 3: But there's a difference between the catch up versus we're

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Speaker 3: going to go to the grocery store together and we're gonna,

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Speaker 3: you know, get further into our routines, even if it's

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Speaker 3: pretty mundane. And there is something that feels different to

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Speaker 3: me about taking action, like doing things that are embodied

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Speaker 3: beyond sitting across a table from each other, and it

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Speaker 3: just feels like you're giving an audible memo to people

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Speaker 3: sometimes and it can be really rewarding, like at an

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Speaker 3: extremely rewarding lunch with a friend I hadn't seen in years,

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Speaker 3: and it was kind of beautiful to reconnect and to

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Speaker 3: see where she was and how much had changed. But

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Speaker 3: it is fundamentally different, and I you know, doesn't enable

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Speaker 3: the same kind of closeness as if you are just

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Speaker 3: able to drop by someone's house and coexist. There's a

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Speaker 3: real intimacy to being able to do very little together.

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Speaker 1: When you think about that time over a period of

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Speaker 1: wakes months, how do you had a friendship like that before?

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Speaker 1: And what did it actually feel like to you?

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Speaker 3: I had glimmers of friendships like this before. I am

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Speaker 3: still close to a friend in grad school and had

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Speaker 3: a very similar kind of meet cute, if you will,

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Speaker 3: where I saw her across the room. She was cross

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Speaker 3: legged on a chair talking to somebody else and was

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Speaker 3: physically leaning in. I found that very compelling. It felt

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Speaker 3: like it said something about her personality. The first year

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Speaker 3: we were in grad school, we were in the same

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Speaker 3: place and we spent a lot of time together, and

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Speaker 3: then the second year we were in different parts of

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Speaker 3: the country, so we became less involved in each other's lives.

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Speaker 3: So I'd had something like that feeling. I had witnessed

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Speaker 3: it when I was younger and kind of envied what

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Speaker 3: I had seen among people who had had these extraordinarily

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Speaker 3: close friendships, especially these three women. I guess they were

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Speaker 3: then girls who were two years older than me, and

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Speaker 3: whatever it is, fifteen years later, they are still this

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Speaker 3: very solid, extremely close unit. I think I craved that

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Speaker 3: sort of closeness because I saw it, but I didn't

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Speaker 3: have it in quite that form.

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Speaker 1: How did it feel different to falling in love?

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Speaker 3: It didn't feel that different. I mean, that was the

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Speaker 3: thing that I was trying to grapple with. There's a

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Speaker 3: line in my journal where I was like, at the

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Speaker 3: time when this was unfolding, It's like, it feels like

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Speaker 3: the way that I fell in love with my husband.

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Speaker 3: It just there's not a sexual desire component to it.

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Speaker 3: It's sort of like infatuation and thrill and butterflies or whatever,

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Speaker 3: that kind of desire to know as much as I

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Speaker 3: can about M and to have as much access to

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Speaker 3: her mind and her influence as I can, which I

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Speaker 3: think is something that people will experience in romantic love,

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Speaker 3: but for me, certainly, it's not exclusive to it. And

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Speaker 3: so I was trying to wrap my mind around why

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Speaker 3: is it that I was told that this feeling can

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Speaker 3: only happen within romance because I'm experiencing it in friendship

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Speaker 3: right now.

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Speaker 1: Was it ever on the table a sexual relationship between

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Speaker 1: the two of you?

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Speaker 3: No, it just was never there. I mean, in the

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Speaker 3: process of working on the book, I checked with M

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Speaker 3: and was like, is anything going on in your mind?

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Speaker 3: Just like, don't want to make any assumptions, and she

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Speaker 3: was like, no, I just don't think it was on

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Speaker 3: either of our minds to have like a sexual romantic relationship.

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Speaker 3: We did talk about our friendship as a romantic friendship

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Speaker 3: and having romantic elements, and romantic friendship is a historical

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Speaker 3: term for a very intimate same sex friendship. We were

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Speaker 3: adopting it for ourselves, so it's not like we shied

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Speaker 3: away from romance, but people can flate. I think romance

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Speaker 3: with sex and were we sort of distinguished the two

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Speaker 3: that you can still have that passion and thrill and

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Speaker 3: like just like sweetness, but that doesn't have to come

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Speaker 3: with a sexual desire.

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Speaker 1: And it can be quite flirty. I mean, I know

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Speaker 1: when I've fallen in love with friends, you can kind

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Speaker 1: of get that banter going that doesn't have to be sexual,

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Speaker 1: but it's almost like the kind of banter that you

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Speaker 1: would have romantically when it was going in a particular direction.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean this makes me think of a friend

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Speaker 3: who is queer, and she'll find that it's easier to

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Speaker 3: sort of be flirty in a friendship context sometimes than

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Speaker 3: in a romantic context with women for her, and you

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Speaker 3: can have banter. You can have a form of flirtation

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Speaker 3: in a friendship setting, but we just don't usually tend

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Speaker 3: to use the same language to apply to the same

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Speaker 3: behaviors if it's happening in friendship rather than romance.

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Speaker 1: How did your husband then boyfriend feel about this? How

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Speaker 1: did you explain him to him? Did he ever feel threatened?

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Speaker 3: Definitely did not feel threatened. Mostly I'm just sort of

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Speaker 3: smiling to myself because I think he was probably utterly

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Speaker 3: unsurprised because I take strong attachments to people, like I mean,

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Speaker 3: you'd asked, like, had I ever felt this way before?

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Speaker 3: I didn't have the kind of level of commitment and

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Speaker 3: involvement in quite the same way. But my husband and

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Speaker 3: I met in grad school very soon after I became

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Speaker 3: friends with the woman who had mentioned earlier, who was

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Speaker 3: maybe the closest kind of relationship I had to this,

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Speaker 3: So he saw how close the two of us were.

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Speaker 3: I'm a very physically affectionate person with my friends, so

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Speaker 3: he's witnessed that. So I don't think it surprised him

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Speaker 3: that I became so close, and he has his own

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Speaker 3: independent friendship with them, like the two of them are close,

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Speaker 3: and he is one of the most well adjusted people

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Speaker 3: I know who doesn't really experienced jealousy as an emotion

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Speaker 3: almost ever, even in his professional life personal life. So

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Speaker 3: I might have also just gotten lucky that for him

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Speaker 3: that wasn't there. And then the other piece of it

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Speaker 3: is that something that drew us together was how much

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Speaker 3: we both had rich friendships in our lives, Like I

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Speaker 3: loved that my husband is still very close to his

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Speaker 3: best friend from college. They have lived on different continents

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Speaker 3: for most of the time that I have known the

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Speaker 3: two of them, and yet they are dedicated to keeping

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Speaker 3: in touch and making sure they see each other. It

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Speaker 3: is a value that we share to be really close

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Speaker 3: to friends, and it then makes sense that it wouldn't

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Speaker 3: be threatening, but instead a value add to him.

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Speaker 1: There's an image in your book that you talk about

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Speaker 1: walking down the street and you were holding both of

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Speaker 1: their hands, which I just love. Did you ever think

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Speaker 1: of being in a thropple? I don't know how many

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Speaker 1: years ago this was, when it sort of was at

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Speaker 1: its pake, and whether that was even something in the

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Speaker 1: culture back then, but did you ever think about that?

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Speaker 3: No, we hadn't at that point. They only bosure I'd

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Speaker 3: had to nominogamy. I think it was not super positive

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Speaker 3: and I think does not capture the other kinds of

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Speaker 3: experiences I've since seen. But m did not fall into

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Speaker 3: a romantic category. Well, I should say, the idea of

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Speaker 3: nom monogamy did come up when I talked to a

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Speaker 3: friend of mine who has experienced with polyamory and said,

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Speaker 3: you just have two partners, RIGHTA like one is a

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Speaker 3: romantic partner. One is a platonic partner. You're practicing polyamory,

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Speaker 3: which was interesting and kind of helpful in some way

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Speaker 3: for giving me a framework to think about the relationship,

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Speaker 3: and also to say that these relationships were of the

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Speaker 3: same kind. I mean, I think it's just so easy

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Speaker 3: to diminish friendship, and instead of saying this is just

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Speaker 3: a friendship, my friend was saying that this is a partnership.

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Speaker 3: So that was kind of the most relevant way that

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Speaker 3: polyamory came into the picture. I mean, I was always

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Speaker 3: closer to em than my husband was to her, and

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Speaker 3: it just it wasn't like a what you would call

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Speaker 3: like a v sort of relationship.

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Speaker 1: A few years ago, you went to a series of

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Speaker 1: wedding and you noticed that they all had something in common.

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Speaker 1: What was it.

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Speaker 3: It's something that maybe other people have also observed at

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Speaker 3: weddings in the last ten, maybe twenty years, that the

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Speaker 3: couple that's getting married refers to one another as their

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Speaker 3: best friend. You know, often during the vows. Not only that,

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Speaker 3: but often there are friends standing in the background while

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Speaker 3: this is happening. There is a best man, a maid

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Speaker 3: of honor, bridesmaids, groomsmen who are present who might have

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Speaker 3: previously been considered a best friend, and that baton is

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Speaker 3: being passed or seat is being demoted. However you want

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Speaker 3: to view it.

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Speaker 1: This idea that your romantic partner should be your best friend,

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Speaker 1: that's pretty recent, isn't it, Because we didn't used to

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Speaker 1: ever have those expectations for how romantic partners.

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Speaker 3: Very far from it. I mean, marriage one hundred and

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Speaker 3: fifty two hundred, many hundreds of years ago was there

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Speaker 3: for pragmatic reasons. People didn't necessarily even have a choice

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Speaker 3: over who their spouse would be. And that's still the

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Speaker 3: case in plenty of parts of the world and plenty

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Speaker 3: of cultures. Now, we not only expect to love our spouses,

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Speaker 3: which was its own development in the West, and that's

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Speaker 3: not that long ago, but we also expect them to

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Speaker 3: play an enormous number of roles in our lives, including

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Speaker 3: being our confidante and co parent and roommate and your

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Speaker 3: professional coach and also best friend. That's just something that

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Speaker 3: people would not have expected in the past.

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Speaker 1: Puts a lot of pressure on romantic relation chiefs, doesn't it.

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Speaker 1: And it's also a lot of eggs in one basket.

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Speaker 3: I think my caveat is I think it is a

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Speaker 3: positive development that there is enough equality in a lot

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Speaker 3: of relationships now that it is plausible to describe your

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Speaker 3: spouse as a friend, let alone a best friend. Even

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Speaker 3: sixty seventy years ago, women were property of their husbands

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Speaker 3: in marriages, so kind of hard to be friends with

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Speaker 3: somebody who has ownership over you. So I think the

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Speaker 3: idea that there should be this kind of amicability and

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Speaker 3: reciprocity and equality in a marital relationship and a romantic

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Speaker 3: relationship is a good one. But now the expectation is

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Speaker 3: so extreme that your romantic partner is supposed to take

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Speaker 3: the top title in multiple categories, not just be your

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Speaker 3: one and only romantic partner and the number one person

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Speaker 3: in your life, but also the number one friend, which

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Speaker 3: doesn't leave a lot of spaace for other kinds of

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Speaker 3: relationships in your life.

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Speaker 1: After the break, Raina tells me about some friendship situations

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Speaker 1: that are seen as really unusual but have actually worked well.

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Speaker 1: And we talk about compulsory coupledom, the way society makes

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Speaker 1: people feel bad like a failure if you don't have

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Speaker 1: a romantic partner. We'll be right back. We've spoken a

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Speaker 1: lot about female friendship and I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: people would be familiar with that the intensity of female friendship.

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Speaker 1: But in the course of writing your book, you spoke

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Speaker 1: to a number of pairs who were what you would

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Speaker 1: call sort of significant other friendships, like a friendship at

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Speaker 1: another level to just best friends or close friends too.

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Speaker 1: That I was really interested in that. Actually the first

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Speaker 1: page spoke to Andrew and Tolly tell me about their friendship.

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Speaker 3: So they have been best friends since they were in

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Speaker 3: high school about fifteen, and now they're in their thirties

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Speaker 3: and have made a lot of the kinds of decisions

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Speaker 3: in their lives that people would expect only romantic partners

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Speaker 3: to make, and they have had to defend those choices

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Speaker 3: to have such a significant role for a friendship in

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Speaker 3: their lives. So some examples of those kinds of decisions

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Speaker 3: would be Andrew was doing a PhD program on the

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Speaker 3: East coast of the United States totally was already a

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Speaker 3: couple of years into a PhD three thousand miles away,

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Speaker 3: however far away California is from Boston, and switched PhD

364
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Speaker 3: programs so that he could work with Andrew, and they

365
00:19:04,085 --> 00:19:05,805
Speaker 3: have lived together since then. It has been quite a

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Speaker 3: few years of living together. They took time away from

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Speaker 3: grad school to start a nonprofit together, again living with

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Speaker 3: each other. Since graduating, they have taken jobs together and

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Speaker 3: lived together. They ran into issues with the romantic partners

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Speaker 3: where they would date women for a few months and

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Speaker 3: then the women at some point would realize that the

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Speaker 3: friendship was as important as it is and would no

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Speaker 3: longer feel comfortable or like the romantic relationship had enough

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Speaker 3: precedence for their preference, and they have eventually presented themselves

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Speaker 3: as nominogamous, not because they want to have multiple romantic partners,

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Speaker 3: but because they think that the only way to find

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Speaker 3: a romantic partner who is okay with somebody else being

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Speaker 3: equal to or maybe even above them in certain kinds

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Speaker 3: of decisions would be people who are okay with the

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Speaker 3: framework of nominogamy. So they've really been willing to make

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Speaker 3: a lot of sacrifices in order to tend to this

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Speaker 3: relationship that has been very anchoring close relationship for their

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Speaker 3: intellectual and emotional developments since they were teenagers.

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Speaker 1: The intensity of these friendship lips, and I guess the

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Speaker 1: permanence and significance of them, can be confusing for people

386
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Speaker 1: around them. Right or around you. At one point, Andrew's

387
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Speaker 1: mother was having conversation with him about someone he'd grown

388
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Speaker 1: up with who was getting married, and she was talking

389
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Speaker 1: about how she wished there was someone in her son's

390
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Speaker 1: life who gave him that kind of fulfillment of a

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Speaker 1: romantic partner. And he said, I've already got all that.

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Speaker 1: I've got it with Tolly, And she said, what do

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Speaker 1: you mean, And he described him as a platonic life partner.

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Speaker 1: She said, I don't understand how your life partner can

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Speaker 1: be someone who you aren't romantic with. You write that

396
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Speaker 1: this friendship and these kinds of friendships defy two widely

397
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Speaker 1: held beliefs that a partnership is by definition a romantic

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Speaker 1: relationship and includes sex, and that without a long term

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Speaker 1: romantic relationship, life is incomplete.

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Speaker 3: I think it is so hard for people to wrap

401
00:21:03,805 --> 00:21:06,605
Speaker 3: their minds around commitment that is not tether it to

402
00:21:06,645 --> 00:21:09,245
Speaker 3: sex in some way. I was just talking to a

403
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Speaker 3: woman yesterday who lives with her husband, their two kids,

404
00:21:13,805 --> 00:21:15,525
Speaker 3: and then her friends who are a couple and their

405
00:21:15,565 --> 00:21:17,965
Speaker 3: two kids. They all live together, they all live together,

406
00:21:17,965 --> 00:21:20,045
Speaker 3: they're raising their kids together, and they live in a

407
00:21:20,125 --> 00:21:23,405
Speaker 3: very liberal city in the US, and she's heard of

408
00:21:23,445 --> 00:21:26,405
Speaker 3: people asking if they are swingers, as in, like are

409
00:21:26,445 --> 00:21:29,445
Speaker 3: these two couples having a sexual relationship because they can't

410
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Speaker 3: wrap their heads around like why would you buy a

411
00:21:31,605 --> 00:21:34,565
Speaker 3: house with someone who you're not in a sexual relationship with.

412
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Speaker 3: It might be that we don't have enough models to

413
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Speaker 3: make it normal to think about people who are friends

414
00:21:40,245 --> 00:21:42,685
Speaker 3: doing this. But yeah, I do think that we conflate

415
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Speaker 3: forms of intimacy and attraction, as we were talking about earlier,

416
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Speaker 3: so that the kind of commitment that is part of

417
00:21:49,685 --> 00:21:54,525
Speaker 3: partnership building a life together is inextricably bound to romance.

418
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Speaker 3: And then the other piece of this is a term

419
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Speaker 3: that I bring up, which is compulsory couple dumb that

420
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Speaker 3: there is this requirement essentially to be in a couple

421
00:22:02,965 --> 00:22:06,005
Speaker 3: if you want to be viewed as successful and normal.

422
00:22:06,565 --> 00:22:09,885
Speaker 3: That is something that weighs on single people, on people

423
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Speaker 3: like those who I write about in the book, who

424
00:22:12,445 --> 00:22:15,165
Speaker 3: have a very devoted partnership, but it is not a

425
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Speaker 3: romantic one and therefore it doesn't count for all intents

426
00:22:18,405 --> 00:22:21,125
Speaker 3: and purposes in this requirement to be coupled.

427
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Speaker 1: Yeah, this idea that somehow you've failed life if you're

428
00:22:25,605 --> 00:22:29,525
Speaker 1: not coupled that's still a pretty pervisive idea or in

429
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Speaker 1: now culture, isn't it.

430
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Speaker 3: The recent example of this is I was interviewed by

431
00:22:34,565 --> 00:22:38,205
Speaker 3: Trevor Noah, who is a comedian in the US and

432
00:22:38,685 --> 00:22:42,365
Speaker 3: very successful professionally, and he's not married, and we were

433
00:22:42,405 --> 00:22:45,165
Speaker 3: talking about this, and he said that he is viewed

434
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Speaker 3: as a loser because he is not married. You know

435
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Speaker 3: that he might be successful in all these other ways.

436
00:22:50,405 --> 00:22:55,165
Speaker 3: But if you are not coupled, you have not contributed

437
00:22:55,205 --> 00:22:58,005
Speaker 3: to society in some way, or there's something wrong with you.

438
00:22:58,005 --> 00:23:00,285
Speaker 3: You have to defend yourself. It's a why are you

439
00:23:00,325 --> 00:23:04,485
Speaker 3: still single? Line? There's something that there's scrutiny around, like

440
00:23:04,525 --> 00:23:06,845
Speaker 3: there is something that must be wrong with you if

441
00:23:06,925 --> 00:23:09,525
Speaker 3: you do not organize your life in this way. I

442
00:23:09,525 --> 00:23:11,685
Speaker 3: think there's a moral judgment that it means that you

443
00:23:11,765 --> 00:23:16,085
Speaker 3: aren't mature or you're selfish. It is striking to me that,

444
00:23:16,205 --> 00:23:19,445
Speaker 3: even though singleness is so much more common, that people

445
00:23:19,445 --> 00:23:22,085
Speaker 3: will tell me these sorts of things that they feel

446
00:23:22,245 --> 00:23:24,365
Speaker 3: like people treat them as if they have not actually

447
00:23:24,445 --> 00:23:26,645
Speaker 3: arrived as a full adult in the world.

448
00:23:27,085 --> 00:23:31,965
Speaker 1: I'd probably suggest that the Trevornoahs and the George Clooneys

449
00:23:32,045 --> 00:23:35,765
Speaker 1: before he married a mile. I don't think they're seen

450
00:23:35,805 --> 00:23:39,565
Speaker 1: as losers. I think that they're seen as players, probably

451
00:23:40,205 --> 00:23:49,565
Speaker 1: men more, but women are seen as unlovable, unwanted, unfulfilled, incomplete.

452
00:23:50,365 --> 00:23:53,765
Speaker 1: One of the reasons, though, perhaps for this, is that

453
00:23:53,805 --> 00:23:59,965
Speaker 1: we don't have rituals for friendship, for acknowledging milestones in friendships,

454
00:24:00,525 --> 00:24:05,725
Speaker 1: for celebrating friendships, for commiserating friendships when they end. What

455
00:24:05,765 --> 00:24:08,645
Speaker 1: are some of the rituals that you discovered that friends

456
00:24:08,805 --> 00:24:13,005
Speaker 1: have created themselves to mock milestones or levels of commitment.

457
00:24:13,565 --> 00:24:17,245
Speaker 3: One person I talked to bought these bracelets that at

458
00:24:17,285 --> 00:24:19,605
Speaker 3: the time at least were marketed toward couples. They were

459
00:24:20,005 --> 00:24:23,045
Speaker 3: their bond touch bracelets. So the idea is that when

460
00:24:23,045 --> 00:24:26,085
Speaker 3: you are not in the same place, you could touch

461
00:24:26,165 --> 00:24:29,805
Speaker 3: your bracelet and it would make a kind of vibration

462
00:24:30,005 --> 00:24:32,565
Speaker 3: or sensation on the other person's bracelet. So it was

463
00:24:32,565 --> 00:24:36,525
Speaker 3: a way to stay connected. I've heard people get tattoos.

464
00:24:37,085 --> 00:24:39,925
Speaker 3: Em and I have matching necklaces which I gave we

465
00:24:40,045 --> 00:24:43,925
Speaker 3: celebrate our anniversary of when we met. Two men who

466
00:24:44,165 --> 00:24:47,445
Speaker 3: I've interviewed celebrate their brother versary. They talk about each

467
00:24:47,445 --> 00:24:50,525
Speaker 3: other as brothers. I've also interviewed people who have gotten

468
00:24:50,525 --> 00:24:53,325
Speaker 3: married not because they are in a romantic relationship, but

469
00:24:53,405 --> 00:24:56,645
Speaker 3: because they either wanted the status, the kind of recognition

470
00:24:56,885 --> 00:25:00,525
Speaker 3: that marriage confers, or they wanted the rights that are

471
00:25:00,565 --> 00:25:05,005
Speaker 3: attached to marriage. And I've heard about friendship ceremonies other

472
00:25:05,125 --> 00:25:08,485
Speaker 3: sorts of things that people have created, and also rituals

473
00:25:08,525 --> 00:25:11,605
Speaker 3: to grieve if a friend has died. There's something beautiful

474
00:25:11,645 --> 00:25:14,445
Speaker 3: about these rituals because they are made by the people

475
00:25:15,245 --> 00:25:18,725
Speaker 3: that they are for. They're not just it is Valentine's Day,

476
00:25:18,725 --> 00:25:20,805
Speaker 3: I'm going to get you a dozen roses. I'm going

477
00:25:20,885 --> 00:25:24,445
Speaker 3: to follow the script ritual. It's something that's very particular.

478
00:25:24,565 --> 00:25:27,885
Speaker 3: But the downside of making up your own ritual is

479
00:25:27,885 --> 00:25:30,325
Speaker 3: that it's not something that's recognized by other people. So

480
00:25:30,365 --> 00:25:33,525
Speaker 3: it's not like a wedding where people understand what it

481
00:25:33,605 --> 00:25:37,125
Speaker 3: means to marry and they show up with gifts or

482
00:25:37,325 --> 00:25:40,685
Speaker 3: cards or they're there to support you. So I've seen

483
00:25:40,845 --> 00:25:44,645
Speaker 3: the double edged sword of a diy ritual to commemorate

484
00:25:44,685 --> 00:25:45,245
Speaker 3: a friendship.

485
00:25:45,845 --> 00:25:48,765
Speaker 1: You know, I'm thinking of the most pop cultural illustration

486
00:25:48,845 --> 00:25:50,805
Speaker 1: of this kind of friendship would probably be sex in

487
00:25:50,805 --> 00:25:51,245
Speaker 1: the City.

488
00:25:51,685 --> 00:25:54,285
Speaker 2: It felt really set no special guy to wish me

489
00:25:54,325 --> 00:25:55,125
Speaker 2: happy birthday.

490
00:25:55,525 --> 00:25:57,485
Speaker 3: Oh goddamn, soulmates.

491
00:25:57,685 --> 00:25:58,405
Speaker 1: Don't laugh at me.

492
00:25:58,565 --> 00:26:05,365
Speaker 2: But maybe we could be each other's soulmates, and then

493
00:26:05,405 --> 00:26:08,965
Speaker 2: we could let men be just these great nice guys

494
00:26:09,005 --> 00:26:09,685
Speaker 2: to have with.

495
00:26:10,645 --> 00:26:15,205
Speaker 1: Or Broad City and maybe girls those three with different

496
00:26:15,245 --> 00:26:20,485
Speaker 1: generations of women, where friendship is very much at the forefront,

497
00:26:21,005 --> 00:26:23,685
Speaker 1: and romantic partners come and go and they're very much

498
00:26:23,765 --> 00:26:28,245
Speaker 1: side characters, but at the essence is those friendships.

499
00:26:28,845 --> 00:26:32,445
Speaker 3: Broad City, I think is a really good model, even

500
00:26:32,445 --> 00:26:35,445
Speaker 3: though they're so out there of the kind of friendship

501
00:26:35,485 --> 00:26:38,885
Speaker 3: that I'm writing about, because they are obsessive, attached at

502
00:26:38,885 --> 00:26:41,365
Speaker 3: the hip. They've built their lives around each other in

503
00:26:41,405 --> 00:26:42,045
Speaker 3: many ways.

504
00:26:42,165 --> 00:26:43,765
Speaker 2: Hey, this is Abby, Leave a message.

505
00:26:44,085 --> 00:26:47,565
Speaker 3: Leave a message, dude. I'm going to be so pissed

506
00:26:47,605 --> 00:26:49,525
Speaker 3: if you're dead. You've got to call me back.

507
00:26:49,765 --> 00:26:50,445
Speaker 2: I'm freaking out.

508
00:26:50,605 --> 00:26:55,125
Speaker 3: I actually think TV has quite a few good examples

509
00:26:55,205 --> 00:26:59,445
Speaker 3: of friendship being the main driver of the story, but

510
00:26:59,565 --> 00:27:02,125
Speaker 3: we certainly could use more because the other show is

511
00:27:02,165 --> 00:27:04,805
Speaker 3: like Friends. It is about friends. But then also the

512
00:27:04,805 --> 00:27:08,365
Speaker 3: show dissolves when two of the characters, Chandler and Monica,

513
00:27:08,405 --> 00:27:11,365
Speaker 3: who are married to the suburbs, and there is an

514
00:27:11,365 --> 00:27:13,445
Speaker 3: earlier part of the plot where Monica's best friend has

515
00:27:13,445 --> 00:27:15,325
Speaker 3: to move out to make space for Chandler.

516
00:27:15,485 --> 00:27:19,165
Speaker 1: It's going to happen. Chandler is going to move in here.

517
00:27:19,965 --> 00:27:25,765
Speaker 3: We're not going to live together anymore. No, Oh my god,

518
00:27:27,085 --> 00:27:30,925
Speaker 3: miss you so much with you. Sometimes he shows about

519
00:27:30,925 --> 00:27:33,245
Speaker 3: friendship are actually about their friendship, and then the grammance

520
00:27:33,285 --> 00:27:35,485
Speaker 3: has come in and out, and sometimes the friendship is

521
00:27:35,525 --> 00:27:37,845
Speaker 3: kind of a back door to let the romantic plot in.

522
00:27:38,365 --> 00:27:40,725
Speaker 3: I am eager to see more of the former where

523
00:27:40,805 --> 00:27:41,805
Speaker 3: the friendship is the driver.

524
00:27:42,085 --> 00:27:46,645
Speaker 1: Tell me what happens when children arrive, because romantic partner

525
00:27:46,685 --> 00:27:50,085
Speaker 1: is a one thing, but children can disrupt any kind

526
00:27:50,125 --> 00:27:52,965
Speaker 1: of friendship. Really, they're a big disruptor of lives generally,

527
00:27:53,085 --> 00:27:56,605
Speaker 1: I find Tell me about Cammi and Tilly, who were

528
00:27:56,685 --> 00:27:59,365
Speaker 1: very close friends that met in military school, and then

529
00:27:59,445 --> 00:28:01,525
Speaker 1: Tilly went on to have a couple of kids.

530
00:28:01,765 --> 00:28:06,365
Speaker 3: It can go different directions where a friendship recedes because

531
00:28:06,925 --> 00:28:10,205
Speaker 3: parenting becomes overwhelming and it's hard to plan, or parents

532
00:28:10,205 --> 00:28:12,645
Speaker 3: and non parents don't want to spend as much time together.

533
00:28:12,685 --> 00:28:16,405
Speaker 3: But in Cammy's case, her friend Tilly really stepped up

534
00:28:16,445 --> 00:28:20,205
Speaker 3: to be kind of an additional caregiver. To her child.

535
00:28:20,365 --> 00:28:24,205
Speaker 3: So Cammy was a single mother, and she had a

536
00:28:24,205 --> 00:28:28,405
Speaker 3: lot of trouble balancing the needs of at first when

537
00:28:28,405 --> 00:28:31,325
Speaker 3: they were in college together, being able to go to classes.

538
00:28:31,685 --> 00:28:34,165
Speaker 3: Like any single parent, she was juggling a lot in

539
00:28:34,245 --> 00:28:38,245
Speaker 3: terms of caregiving, and also she was trying to make

540
00:28:38,285 --> 00:28:40,085
Speaker 3: an income. She was working at a bar at night,

541
00:28:40,125 --> 00:28:43,165
Speaker 3: and she was going to school, and Tilly just offered

542
00:28:43,165 --> 00:28:45,445
Speaker 3: to help out, and she ended up getting into a

543
00:28:45,525 --> 00:28:50,005
Speaker 3: routine of going to preschool pickup and would babysit if

544
00:28:50,125 --> 00:28:53,165
Speaker 3: Cammy needed to work a late night. And later on,

545
00:28:53,605 --> 00:28:57,005
Speaker 3: Cammy met a partner who she's now been with very

546
00:28:57,005 --> 00:28:59,125
Speaker 3: seriously for a while, and they had a child together,

547
00:28:59,445 --> 00:29:02,805
Speaker 3: and that child has special needs. Cammy got really cut

548
00:29:02,805 --> 00:29:04,885
Speaker 3: off from her other friendships. It was very hard for

549
00:29:04,925 --> 00:29:06,365
Speaker 3: her when she was in and out of the hospital

550
00:29:06,405 --> 00:29:10,405
Speaker 3: with her daughter to maintain those friendships. People didn't necessarily

551
00:29:10,445 --> 00:29:12,565
Speaker 3: want to be there for it, but Cammy was at

552
00:29:12,565 --> 00:29:15,165
Speaker 3: the hospital and Cammy really got to know her daughter.

553
00:29:15,325 --> 00:29:18,725
Speaker 3: And when I visited Cammy's home in Oklahoma, and Tilly

554
00:29:19,205 --> 00:29:21,805
Speaker 3: had been staying there for a couple months, and I

555
00:29:21,845 --> 00:29:25,405
Speaker 3: got to see how Tilly interacted with Cammy's younger daughter,

556
00:29:25,525 --> 00:29:29,285
Speaker 3: the child who has these complex disabilities and has a

557
00:29:29,285 --> 00:29:34,045
Speaker 3: lot of needs and can get uncomfortable easily. There was

558
00:29:34,285 --> 00:29:38,525
Speaker 3: just this complete ease with Tilly scooping the girl up

559
00:29:38,565 --> 00:29:41,325
Speaker 3: and like rocking her on a chair or knowing what

560
00:29:41,445 --> 00:29:44,285
Speaker 3: food she needed, or being able to kind of communicate

561
00:29:44,285 --> 00:29:47,725
Speaker 3: with her, and that showed that there's so much trust

562
00:29:47,765 --> 00:29:50,725
Speaker 3: and time that went into that relationship. Tilly also likes

563
00:29:50,765 --> 00:29:53,765
Speaker 3: to use this word family, which is a portmanteau of

564
00:29:53,805 --> 00:29:56,565
Speaker 3: friend and family. And there's a whole joke about like

565
00:29:56,725 --> 00:29:59,205
Speaker 3: there's a family draft, like there's a draft in football

566
00:29:59,325 --> 00:30:01,485
Speaker 3: or basketball or something that you could try to get

567
00:30:01,485 --> 00:30:03,765
Speaker 3: into somebody else's family, and that she campaigned to be

568
00:30:03,845 --> 00:30:06,765
Speaker 3: part of this family, and you know, it's a running joke,

569
00:30:06,805 --> 00:30:10,245
Speaker 3: but the kids understand it. And Tilly's caregiving of the

570
00:30:10,325 --> 00:30:12,645
Speaker 3: kids is a big part of how she has shown

571
00:30:12,685 --> 00:30:14,365
Speaker 3: up as a friend for Cammi.

572
00:30:14,885 --> 00:30:17,485
Speaker 1: At a whole other level is Linda and Natasha, who

573
00:30:17,925 --> 00:30:20,845
Speaker 1: raised a child together. Can you tell us about them?

574
00:30:21,485 --> 00:30:25,045
Speaker 3: So Natasha had planned to raise a child on her own.

575
00:30:25,565 --> 00:30:28,765
Speaker 3: She hadn't been in a romantic relationship in her mid thirties.

576
00:30:28,845 --> 00:30:31,685
Speaker 3: It thought she wasn't going to wait indefinitely or maybe

577
00:30:31,685 --> 00:30:34,925
Speaker 3: forego the possibility of having a kid. So she ended

578
00:30:35,005 --> 00:30:36,605
Speaker 3: up having a child on her own with an anonymous

579
00:30:36,605 --> 00:30:40,165
Speaker 3: sperm donor, and her coworker and friend offered to be

580
00:30:40,165 --> 00:30:43,325
Speaker 3: the birth coach once she found out that Natasha was pregnant,

581
00:30:43,885 --> 00:30:46,085
Speaker 3: and she ended up going much further than being a

582
00:30:46,085 --> 00:30:49,885
Speaker 3: birth coach. She completely fell in love with Natasha's son.

583
00:30:49,925 --> 00:30:53,165
Speaker 3: Elam described him as feeling like it was a magical

584
00:30:53,165 --> 00:30:55,605
Speaker 3: little love bomb or something of that, Like she's very effusive.

585
00:30:56,005 --> 00:30:58,805
Speaker 3: She really took to him, and you know, kind of

586
00:30:58,805 --> 00:31:01,765
Speaker 3: similar to what I was describing with Tilly. Got to

587
00:31:02,285 --> 00:31:06,485
Speaker 3: know what Allan needed so quickly and Alan, they later learned,

588
00:31:06,525 --> 00:31:10,325
Speaker 3: had a series of complex disabilities, and Linda was able

589
00:31:10,365 --> 00:31:13,565
Speaker 3: to soothe him when he was in a lot of distress.

590
00:31:13,805 --> 00:31:17,525
Speaker 3: She sang to him and learned to sing on the

591
00:31:17,645 --> 00:31:20,125
Speaker 3: in breadth because if she paused to breathe, he would

592
00:31:20,125 --> 00:31:23,525
Speaker 3: get really upset. Shows you how much she tended to him.

593
00:31:24,085 --> 00:31:27,405
Speaker 3: She later sold her house to move into the same

594
00:31:27,525 --> 00:31:31,045
Speaker 3: condo building as Natasha, so they were call each other

595
00:31:31,165 --> 00:31:33,885
Speaker 3: vertical neighbors, and she became part of the daily routine

596
00:31:34,405 --> 00:31:39,005
Speaker 3: of Natasha and Alon and went to the doctor's appointments.

597
00:31:39,605 --> 00:31:42,925
Speaker 3: There was a point where Linda's friends were asking her, like,

598
00:31:43,045 --> 00:31:44,885
Speaker 3: is this a wise thing to do? You have no

599
00:31:44,965 --> 00:31:48,165
Speaker 3: rights to this child, what if anything happens to Natasha?

600
00:31:48,405 --> 00:31:51,165
Speaker 3: And Linda herself was thinking about wanting to have a

601
00:31:51,245 --> 00:31:55,005
Speaker 3: child on her own and eventually realized yes, she wanted

602
00:31:55,005 --> 00:31:56,365
Speaker 3: to be a mother, but she wanted to be a

603
00:31:56,365 --> 00:31:59,845
Speaker 3: mother to Elaan, and so she and Natasha worked to

604
00:31:59,885 --> 00:32:03,325
Speaker 3: get Linda legal recognition, which they were able to do,

605
00:32:03,525 --> 00:32:06,805
Speaker 3: and they made creative precedent in Canada where they live,

606
00:32:07,165 --> 00:32:10,645
Speaker 3: but it was not a kind of straightforward process because

607
00:32:10,645 --> 00:32:13,885
Speaker 3: they're not romantic partners, and the law there and in

608
00:32:13,965 --> 00:32:17,285
Speaker 3: other countries too, really assumes that the parent of a

609
00:32:17,365 --> 00:32:20,405
Speaker 3: child is going to have a relationship with the other parent,

610
00:32:20,405 --> 00:32:23,125
Speaker 3: that there's going to be a romantic relationship between the parents,

611
00:32:23,365 --> 00:32:25,885
Speaker 3: rather than exclusively looking at well, what is the relationship

612
00:32:25,885 --> 00:32:30,325
Speaker 3: between the adult and the child. They have really functioned

613
00:32:30,325 --> 00:32:33,685
Speaker 3: as a family. Linda ended up in a romantic relationship

614
00:32:33,725 --> 00:32:36,005
Speaker 3: with an acquaintance of Natasha's, so they've had a three

615
00:32:36,045 --> 00:32:38,885
Speaker 3: parent family. And then as of a few months ago,

616
00:32:39,285 --> 00:32:42,965
Speaker 3: Linda's partner gave birth to a child. So now Alan

617
00:32:43,125 --> 00:32:45,645
Speaker 3: is an older brother, so they have two children, and

618
00:32:45,805 --> 00:32:46,965
Speaker 3: this three parent family.

619
00:32:47,445 --> 00:32:51,445
Speaker 1: Is there precedent for this kind of friendship and recognition

620
00:32:51,565 --> 00:32:55,445
Speaker 1: of friendship historically or in other cultures? I know there'll

621
00:32:55,445 --> 00:32:58,285
Speaker 1: be people listening to us spake who've never experienced a

622
00:32:58,365 --> 00:33:02,045
Speaker 1: friendship like this, but might recognize it in other people

623
00:33:02,085 --> 00:33:05,165
Speaker 1: that they've known. And there'll be people who have experienced

624
00:33:05,165 --> 00:33:08,125
Speaker 1: friendships like this, what's the precedent for.

625
00:33:08,005 --> 00:33:13,725
Speaker 3: Its historical precedent for very close friendships? And in fact,

626
00:33:14,405 --> 00:33:16,805
Speaker 3: historically speaking, we are kind of the odd ones for

627
00:33:17,685 --> 00:33:22,725
Speaker 3: not recognizing that friendship can be as devoted and intense

628
00:33:22,885 --> 00:33:27,245
Speaker 3: as some of the friendships that I'm describing. So I

629
00:33:27,285 --> 00:33:30,205
Speaker 3: mentioned earlier that one way that EM and I would

630
00:33:30,205 --> 00:33:32,765
Speaker 3: talk about each other is as having a romantic friendship.

631
00:33:33,045 --> 00:33:35,925
Speaker 3: So that is a kind of very intimate same sex

632
00:33:35,965 --> 00:33:39,125
Speaker 3: friendship that was common throughout the West in the seventeen

633
00:33:39,205 --> 00:33:42,125
Speaker 3: hundreds eighteen hundreds up until the turn of the twentieth century.

634
00:33:42,605 --> 00:33:46,205
Speaker 3: It's kind of extraordinary to read letters, maybe especially between men,

635
00:33:46,285 --> 00:33:48,885
Speaker 3: because it's so out of step with how we think

636
00:33:48,925 --> 00:33:52,285
Speaker 3: about what is appropriate for men's communication with each other.

637
00:33:52,565 --> 00:33:54,845
Speaker 3: They would write to each other in what looks like

638
00:33:54,885 --> 00:33:59,085
Speaker 3: love letters, but there were very different norms around what

639
00:33:59,205 --> 00:34:01,605
Speaker 3: was okay to express to a friend at the time. So,

640
00:34:02,045 --> 00:34:04,605
Speaker 3: you know, one letter that I'm thinking of, this man's

641
00:34:04,805 --> 00:34:07,205
Speaker 3: was talking about his heart which was physically weak, and

642
00:34:07,245 --> 00:34:10,725
Speaker 3: that he said that his last pulsation shall vibrate for you.

643
00:34:11,205 --> 00:34:14,725
Speaker 3: That's kind of a strong sentiment to have for a friend.

644
00:34:14,805 --> 00:34:18,925
Speaker 3: But women exchanged locks of hair at women's colleges. There

645
00:34:19,005 --> 00:34:22,325
Speaker 3: was a term to describe to women who became attached

646
00:34:22,325 --> 00:34:24,245
Speaker 3: at the hip, and they were called smashed. In the

647
00:34:24,325 --> 00:34:26,965
Speaker 3: UK would be called having a rave. I can give

648
00:34:27,005 --> 00:34:29,805
Speaker 3: other examples. Two of ceremonies you know that are back

649
00:34:30,285 --> 00:34:33,485
Speaker 3: almost a thousand years where monks would pair off and

650
00:34:33,525 --> 00:34:35,965
Speaker 3: be spiritually devoted to each other. And then there were

651
00:34:36,005 --> 00:34:38,605
Speaker 3: later ceremonies that were built off of that that were

652
00:34:38,725 --> 00:34:43,245
Speaker 3: enacted in churches, so there were public ceremonies to commemorate friendship.

653
00:34:43,645 --> 00:34:45,685
Speaker 3: We've just had a lot of history where friendship has

654
00:34:45,725 --> 00:34:47,925
Speaker 3: meant a lot more, And I can talk a little

655
00:34:47,925 --> 00:34:50,525
Speaker 3: bit about like why that's not the case anymore, Why

656
00:34:50,605 --> 00:34:52,765
Speaker 3: do you think it's not. There are really kind of

657
00:34:52,805 --> 00:34:56,965
Speaker 3: two trends or changes that I would put my finger on.

658
00:34:56,965 --> 00:34:59,925
Speaker 3: One is that very close friendship no longer became innocent

659
00:35:00,445 --> 00:35:04,045
Speaker 3: once you have the introduction of homosexuality as this identity

660
00:35:04,045 --> 00:35:06,885
Speaker 3: and a stigmatized identity. So you know, we'd take for

661
00:35:06,925 --> 00:35:09,205
Speaker 3: granted that we like know that a person is gay

662
00:35:09,405 --> 00:35:12,925
Speaker 3: or lesbian or bisexual, but those were no identities that

663
00:35:13,005 --> 00:35:16,045
Speaker 3: existed in a way that people understood until about the

664
00:35:16,045 --> 00:35:18,405
Speaker 3: turn of the twentieth century. So there was a lot

665
00:35:18,445 --> 00:35:22,245
Speaker 3: more latitude to have physical and emotional intimacy and have

666
00:35:22,325 --> 00:35:25,245
Speaker 3: it not be read as sexual. That's one of the

667
00:35:25,245 --> 00:35:28,845
Speaker 3: two trends, the rise of this identity of homosexuality and

668
00:35:28,885 --> 00:35:31,885
Speaker 3: the stigma attached to it that really took away the

669
00:35:32,005 --> 00:35:35,725
Speaker 3: innocence from emotional and physical intimacy among friends. You could

670
00:35:35,805 --> 00:35:38,005
Speaker 3: look up photos also from the late eighteen hundreds early

671
00:35:38,085 --> 00:35:41,205
Speaker 3: nineteen hundreds of men in studio portraits together where their

672
00:35:41,365 --> 00:35:44,805
Speaker 3: arms wrapped around each other or their legs on top

673
00:35:44,845 --> 00:35:46,845
Speaker 3: of each other. They were just really intertwined, and nobody

674
00:35:46,925 --> 00:35:50,165
Speaker 3: thought anything of it. There. The other trend is the

675
00:35:50,205 --> 00:35:53,325
Speaker 3: growing space that marriage took up, and meaning marriage took

676
00:35:53,365 --> 00:35:57,125
Speaker 3: up in people's lives. Marriage was pragmatic, as we talked about,

677
00:35:57,165 --> 00:36:00,325
Speaker 3: and it became a relationship where people expected love and

678
00:36:00,365 --> 00:36:03,965
Speaker 3: then in the last sixty seventy years self actualization they

679
00:36:04,525 --> 00:36:07,525
Speaker 3: expect as I think, well, who's a psychologist has put

680
00:36:07,565 --> 00:36:10,605
Speaker 3: it that your romantic partner supposed to be Michelangelo to

681
00:36:11,325 --> 00:36:13,965
Speaker 3: your marble, like they're supposed to unlock the best version

682
00:36:14,005 --> 00:36:16,725
Speaker 3: of you that's within, and that is a really tall

683
00:36:16,885 --> 00:36:20,565
Speaker 3: order and requires a level of time and investment and

684
00:36:21,285 --> 00:36:26,245
Speaker 3: emotional connection that wasn't there before, and also probably leaves

685
00:36:26,445 --> 00:36:30,405
Speaker 3: less space for other kinds of close connections in your life.

686
00:36:30,445 --> 00:36:33,325
Speaker 3: If you're expecting a romantic partner to fulfill so much

687
00:36:33,365 --> 00:36:36,365
Speaker 3: so both of those together, you can see this decline

688
00:36:36,485 --> 00:36:39,885
Speaker 3: in what friendship has meant and what we expect of it.

689
00:36:40,605 --> 00:36:43,365
Speaker 1: We haven't talked about the worst part of friendship, and

690
00:36:43,365 --> 00:36:46,525
Speaker 1: that is when they end. The end of a friendship,

691
00:36:46,805 --> 00:36:52,085
Speaker 1: whether it's abrupt or slow, can be absolutely devastating, and

692
00:36:52,125 --> 00:37:02,325
Speaker 1: that's what happened to raina stay with us. When something

693
00:37:02,325 --> 00:37:07,165
Speaker 1: burns very bright and very strong, when it starts to fade,

694
00:37:07,325 --> 00:37:10,245
Speaker 1: the results can be devastating. Can you tell me a

695
00:37:10,245 --> 00:37:13,645
Speaker 1: little bit about how your relationship with m changed, how

696
00:37:13,645 --> 00:37:17,245
Speaker 1: long you'd been together and when you noticed that maybe

697
00:37:17,285 --> 00:37:19,245
Speaker 1: things were evolving.

698
00:37:19,405 --> 00:37:24,205
Speaker 3: So em moved abroad to a different continent for grad school,

699
00:37:24,325 --> 00:37:27,605
Speaker 3: and we had kind of talked before she left about

700
00:37:27,725 --> 00:37:31,205
Speaker 3: how we would maintain the friendship, but I didn't quite

701
00:37:31,245 --> 00:37:35,125
Speaker 3: anticipate how things would change. It felt like the physical

702
00:37:35,165 --> 00:37:41,365
Speaker 3: distance also became emotional distance. And the way that I

703
00:37:41,365 --> 00:37:44,325
Speaker 3: felt like she constantly wanted to know everything about me

704
00:37:44,565 --> 00:37:46,845
Speaker 3: that we couldn't exhaust each other, you know, we could

705
00:37:46,885 --> 00:37:50,645
Speaker 3: leave endless voice memos no longer really felt true. I

706
00:37:50,645 --> 00:37:53,205
Speaker 3: felt more like an intrusion. And part of that was

707
00:37:53,245 --> 00:37:55,285
Speaker 3: like she wanted to build a new life in a

708
00:37:55,285 --> 00:37:57,685
Speaker 3: new place, which is very understandable. I don't think it

709
00:37:57,725 --> 00:37:59,565
Speaker 3: was about me in particular. She would also spend a

710
00:37:59,605 --> 00:38:01,925
Speaker 3: lot of time away from her phone. It was hard

711
00:38:01,965 --> 00:38:06,245
Speaker 3: for me to accept how much I felt loss. I

712
00:38:06,285 --> 00:38:08,725
Speaker 3: thought I was maybe being unreasonable. I didn't really know

713
00:38:08,765 --> 00:38:11,445
Speaker 3: how to talk about with other people because I didn't

714
00:38:11,445 --> 00:38:13,165
Speaker 3: know many other people who had this kind of friendship.

715
00:38:13,565 --> 00:38:16,805
Speaker 3: I was also writing and thinking about friendship at the time,

716
00:38:17,005 --> 00:38:20,285
Speaker 3: and it felt like it kind of like undermined what

717
00:38:20,325 --> 00:38:22,805
Speaker 3: I was saying. If my own friendship was not at

718
00:38:22,805 --> 00:38:25,645
Speaker 3: the level that it once was. I think the other

719
00:38:25,685 --> 00:38:28,405
Speaker 3: difficulty was that it wasn't like there was some on

720
00:38:28,525 --> 00:38:31,685
Speaker 3: off switch where we went from being extraordinarily close, like

721
00:38:31,725 --> 00:38:35,085
Speaker 3: partner level, to having some big blow up and then

722
00:38:35,125 --> 00:38:38,485
Speaker 3: never seeing each other again. It was a scaling back

723
00:38:38,525 --> 00:38:41,925
Speaker 3: of how close we were. And I would later learn

724
00:38:41,965 --> 00:38:44,285
Speaker 3: that there is a term for this kind of loss

725
00:38:44,645 --> 00:38:48,405
Speaker 3: that doesn't have a clear break, and it's called ambiguous loss.

726
00:38:48,445 --> 00:38:51,725
Speaker 3: And it is characteristically very very hard to deal with

727
00:38:51,765 --> 00:38:54,365
Speaker 3: that kind of loss because it's difficult for the person

728
00:38:54,405 --> 00:38:57,485
Speaker 3: who's experiencing the loss to recognize it because there isn't

729
00:38:57,525 --> 00:39:00,365
Speaker 3: a kind of clear end. And it also makes it

730
00:39:00,365 --> 00:39:02,685
Speaker 3: difficult for people to be supportive of the person who's

731
00:39:02,725 --> 00:39:05,725
Speaker 3: experiencing the loss because they don't really see that there

732
00:39:05,765 --> 00:39:08,365
Speaker 3: has been a change. So, you know, I think the

733
00:39:08,405 --> 00:39:11,525
Speaker 3: time when it became clear was when m came back

734
00:39:11,565 --> 00:39:16,005
Speaker 3: to visit DC and I decided to tell her how

735
00:39:16,045 --> 00:39:18,885
Speaker 3: I was feeling and that I was feeling less closeness

736
00:39:18,885 --> 00:39:22,445
Speaker 3: and kind of expected her to want to change things,

737
00:39:22,485 --> 00:39:25,205
Speaker 3: and that was not really her response. It was like

738
00:39:25,405 --> 00:39:27,885
Speaker 3: what we had was beautiful, and I think we're in

739
00:39:27,885 --> 00:39:31,045
Speaker 3: a different phase. That was maybe when things got clearest,

740
00:39:31,085 --> 00:39:34,565
Speaker 3: But it kind of took writing the book and the

741
00:39:34,565 --> 00:39:37,045
Speaker 3: particularly the parts about our friendship changing and doing that

742
00:39:37,165 --> 00:39:41,085
Speaker 3: years after all of this, to fully process what had

743
00:39:41,085 --> 00:39:44,285
Speaker 3: been difficult, and also to exchange what I had written

744
00:39:44,325 --> 00:39:47,645
Speaker 3: with her and get her response about what she had

745
00:39:47,645 --> 00:39:50,125
Speaker 3: been thinking and had not been able to articulate at

746
00:39:50,125 --> 00:39:52,245
Speaker 3: the time. You know how much I had not been

747
00:39:52,285 --> 00:39:53,205
Speaker 3: able to understand.

748
00:39:53,645 --> 00:39:55,565
Speaker 1: Did that conversation feel like a break up?

749
00:39:56,365 --> 00:39:58,525
Speaker 3: No, I don't. You know. We were on the couch

750
00:39:58,605 --> 00:40:00,565
Speaker 3: and like she was just you know, flat on top

751
00:40:00,605 --> 00:40:03,405
Speaker 3: of me. It was very like sweet and affectionate and caring.

752
00:40:03,885 --> 00:40:06,205
Speaker 3: I mean, maybe this is still reflection of like what

753
00:40:06,365 --> 00:40:09,165
Speaker 3: is the language, and it is a scaling down because

754
00:40:09,605 --> 00:40:11,965
Speaker 3: a breakup, but it was there was something that felt

755
00:40:12,285 --> 00:40:16,925
Speaker 3: more final or clarifying about There was a break. There

756
00:40:16,965 --> 00:40:20,085
Speaker 3: was a break from our past that she had acknowledged

757
00:40:20,125 --> 00:40:22,165
Speaker 3: and that I now needed to come to terms with.

758
00:40:22,885 --> 00:40:26,085
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't really remember afterwards how I dealt

759
00:40:26,285 --> 00:40:29,165
Speaker 3: with It was years ago, so I don't totally remember.

760
00:40:29,245 --> 00:40:30,965
Speaker 1: But what's your friendship's like today?

761
00:40:31,085 --> 00:40:32,725
Speaker 3: I mean, it's still one of the closest people in

762
00:40:32,805 --> 00:40:35,045
Speaker 3: my life. I wouldn't use the same kind of language

763
00:40:35,085 --> 00:40:38,325
Speaker 3: to describe the commitment. I think there's still a lot

764
00:40:38,325 --> 00:40:41,845
Speaker 3: of the excitement and enthusiasm, and I want as much

765
00:40:41,925 --> 00:40:45,565
Speaker 3: of her thinking and brilliance in my mind to like

766
00:40:45,565 --> 00:40:46,805
Speaker 3: seep into my head as possible.

767
00:40:47,245 --> 00:40:47,405
Speaker 2: You know.

768
00:40:47,485 --> 00:40:49,925
Speaker 3: One big change is that our friendship is now mostly

769
00:40:49,925 --> 00:40:53,525
Speaker 3: a three way friendship with an Australian friend. That has

770
00:40:53,565 --> 00:40:56,325
Speaker 3: been really interesting to see how two of us will

771
00:40:56,365 --> 00:40:59,645
Speaker 3: react differently to the same thing and how much I

772
00:40:59,685 --> 00:41:03,245
Speaker 3: feel like I have learned about through our mutual friend

773
00:41:03,405 --> 00:41:05,205
Speaker 3: and other ways that we can relate to each other.

774
00:41:05,245 --> 00:41:08,005
Speaker 3: But I kind of describe this as instead of an

775
00:41:08,045 --> 00:41:09,245
Speaker 3: on off s which sort of like a dimmer that

776
00:41:09,405 --> 00:41:11,405
Speaker 3: can move up and down, and that's been something that's happened.

777
00:41:11,485 --> 00:41:13,805
Speaker 3: Especially there have been points where our professional lives have

778
00:41:13,845 --> 00:41:16,765
Speaker 3: converged more or like we want to do more like

779
00:41:16,925 --> 00:41:19,805
Speaker 3: co writing together, and then that becomes a space to

780
00:41:19,845 --> 00:41:22,165
Speaker 3: be like checking in with each other throughout the day

781
00:41:22,165 --> 00:41:24,645
Speaker 3: and learning about what projects we're working on, and we're

782
00:41:24,645 --> 00:41:26,765
Speaker 3: just sort of more integrated into life. But we don't

783
00:41:26,805 --> 00:41:28,605
Speaker 3: live in the same city anymore, and we haven't for

784
00:41:28,685 --> 00:41:31,045
Speaker 3: many years at this point, and so I think that

785
00:41:31,405 --> 00:41:34,125
Speaker 3: just sort of makes it fundamentally different, because without proximity,

786
00:41:34,165 --> 00:41:36,685
Speaker 3: it's hard to be as involved in each other's lives.

787
00:41:36,725 --> 00:41:39,525
Speaker 3: As we were describing earlier, it's like one of the

788
00:41:39,525 --> 00:41:42,005
Speaker 3: benefits of kids friendships so much as that proximity. So

789
00:41:42,205 --> 00:41:43,845
Speaker 3: she's both like one of the very closest people in

790
00:41:43,845 --> 00:41:45,525
Speaker 3: my life, but it is also a different kind of

791
00:41:45,565 --> 00:41:48,245
Speaker 3: relationship than what it had been when we started off

792
00:41:48,245 --> 00:41:49,285
Speaker 3: in the first couple of years.

793
00:41:49,565 --> 00:41:51,725
Speaker 1: It's interesting you talk about that dimmer switch, and I

794
00:41:51,765 --> 00:41:54,325
Speaker 1: know exactly what you mean. You had that sort of

795
00:41:54,325 --> 00:41:58,565
Speaker 1: clarifying conversation which almost drew to a close one season

796
00:41:58,605 --> 00:42:02,405
Speaker 1: of your friendship and began another, which was one that

797
00:42:02,525 --> 00:42:04,765
Speaker 1: burned a little less brightly, and that was perhaps a

798
00:42:04,765 --> 00:42:08,525
Speaker 1: little less intense. For some people, though, who have these

799
00:42:08,605 --> 00:42:12,245
Speaker 1: kinds of friendship, they end abruptly. It's more like a

800
00:42:12,245 --> 00:42:16,445
Speaker 1: switch flicking off, either through death, through a misunderstanding, or

801
00:42:16,645 --> 00:42:20,205
Speaker 1: fooling out. When that happens, the people that you spoke

802
00:42:20,245 --> 00:42:23,485
Speaker 1: to for the book, how does it affect them, and

803
00:42:23,525 --> 00:42:25,605
Speaker 1: what are the different ways that friendships can end.

804
00:42:26,325 --> 00:42:28,445
Speaker 3: I've had so many people tell me that the end

805
00:42:28,445 --> 00:42:30,365
Speaker 3: of a friendship is more devastating than the end of

806
00:42:30,365 --> 00:42:34,045
Speaker 3: a romantic relationship. I think a big part of it

807
00:42:34,085 --> 00:42:38,485
Speaker 3: is that there is no recognition of the legitimacy of

808
00:42:38,965 --> 00:42:41,405
Speaker 3: the end of a friendship as a real loss. And

809
00:42:41,685 --> 00:42:43,845
Speaker 3: you know, I talked about ambiguous loss earlier. That's one

810
00:42:43,885 --> 00:42:47,005
Speaker 3: way to really suffer. Another is to have what's called

811
00:42:47,045 --> 00:42:51,085
Speaker 3: disinfranchised grief. So there are some forms of loss that

812
00:42:51,085 --> 00:42:53,405
Speaker 3: are understood to be devastating, like the loss of a child,

813
00:42:53,485 --> 00:42:56,645
Speaker 3: of a spouse, of a parent, and friend is just

814
00:42:56,805 --> 00:42:58,485
Speaker 3: not one of the things that's on that list, and

815
00:42:58,525 --> 00:43:01,965
Speaker 3: so it would count as grief that is not recognized,

816
00:43:02,005 --> 00:43:05,365
Speaker 3: that's not understood that there aren't rituals for you know,

817
00:43:05,445 --> 00:43:08,005
Speaker 3: one expert I talked to who coined the term disinfranchise

818
00:43:08,085 --> 00:43:10,965
Speaker 3: grief maybe observation that you're probably not going to be

819
00:43:10,965 --> 00:43:12,885
Speaker 3: able to go find a Hallmark card that says sorry

820
00:43:12,925 --> 00:43:15,485
Speaker 3: your friend died. You could probably find a card that says,

821
00:43:15,485 --> 00:43:18,045
Speaker 3: I'm sorry your pet died, your dog died, your cat diet.

822
00:43:18,085 --> 00:43:20,685
Speaker 1: You know, some workplaces even off of pet bereavement leave.

823
00:43:22,085 --> 00:43:26,205
Speaker 3: Yeah, And in contrast, one woman who I write about,

824
00:43:26,965 --> 00:43:29,685
Speaker 3: she spent six years as one of the main caregivers

825
00:43:29,725 --> 00:43:33,205
Speaker 3: for a friend that she calls her soulmate. After her

826
00:43:33,205 --> 00:43:35,685
Speaker 3: friend died, she was not entitled to bereavement leave because

827
00:43:36,405 --> 00:43:39,085
Speaker 3: she wasn't related by blood, marriage or adoption, but she

828
00:43:39,125 --> 00:43:41,725
Speaker 3: could have taken bereavement leave for an uncle she had

829
00:43:41,725 --> 00:43:45,005
Speaker 3: never met when he died. So there are these categorical

830
00:43:45,605 --> 00:43:48,245
Speaker 3: distinctions that we make between different types of relationships that

831
00:43:48,765 --> 00:43:52,205
Speaker 3: might often be a good proxy for how close people are,

832
00:43:52,245 --> 00:43:55,445
Speaker 3: but they aren't always. And when you have a very

833
00:43:55,485 --> 00:43:59,485
Speaker 3: close friendship that ends, that's when these category unquote distinctions

834
00:43:59,525 --> 00:44:03,165
Speaker 3: really fail people and they aren't able to get the

835
00:44:03,205 --> 00:44:07,045
Speaker 3: recognition that they want, which only prolongs and exacerbates the grief.

836
00:44:07,405 --> 00:44:11,445
Speaker 1: You spoke to one person who when their friend was murdered,

837
00:44:11,525 --> 00:44:12,845
Speaker 1: they listened to love songs.

838
00:44:13,285 --> 00:44:15,885
Speaker 3: The culture writer Huashu, who's one of the things he

839
00:44:15,885 --> 00:44:18,685
Speaker 3: writes about his music, so he knows he's a music critic.

840
00:44:18,685 --> 00:44:20,685
Speaker 3: He knows very well. And this has actually taken from

841
00:44:20,685 --> 00:44:23,125
Speaker 3: his beautiful memoir that he wrote about his friend that

842
00:44:23,165 --> 00:44:24,925
Speaker 3: I believe on the Pultzer, so you don't have to

843
00:44:24,925 --> 00:44:28,725
Speaker 3: trust my judgment. But he listened to love songs because

844
00:44:29,405 --> 00:44:33,965
Speaker 3: there weren't songs about platonic love that captured either the

845
00:44:34,005 --> 00:44:35,965
Speaker 3: depth of feeling or the grief that he had. And

846
00:44:36,205 --> 00:44:38,765
Speaker 3: he later found some songs in hip hop where there

847
00:44:38,805 --> 00:44:41,685
Speaker 3: were some music that spoke to kind of a write

848
00:44:41,725 --> 00:44:44,685
Speaker 3: or die type of friendship. But you know, I don't

849
00:44:44,685 --> 00:44:46,965
Speaker 3: think things have actually changed that much because that was

850
00:44:47,085 --> 00:44:50,525
Speaker 3: decades ago now. But you know, TV we discussed is

851
00:44:50,565 --> 00:44:53,565
Speaker 3: in a better place with shows like broad City, Sex

852
00:44:53,565 --> 00:44:56,525
Speaker 3: and The City, Golden Girls so on. But music, there's

853
00:44:56,605 --> 00:44:59,405
Speaker 3: real a real deficit of talking about both the highs

854
00:44:59,405 --> 00:45:00,725
Speaker 3: and lows of friendship.

855
00:45:01,205 --> 00:45:04,085
Speaker 1: Do you think that something will change? Can you say

856
00:45:04,125 --> 00:45:07,365
Speaker 1: things changing this idea of you know, people talk about

857
00:45:07,405 --> 00:45:11,165
Speaker 1: friends being their chosen family. Now the importance of friendship.

858
00:45:11,165 --> 00:45:14,005
Speaker 1: We know that all the studies show that women have

859
00:45:14,085 --> 00:45:18,245
Speaker 1: better health outcomes in old age depending more on whether

860
00:45:18,245 --> 00:45:21,285
Speaker 1: they've got friends. That's even more important than whether they

861
00:45:21,325 --> 00:45:24,045
Speaker 1: smoke or not. Do you think the society is starting

862
00:45:24,045 --> 00:45:26,125
Speaker 1: to recognize friendship a little bit more.

863
00:45:26,525 --> 00:45:29,605
Speaker 3: I do think we are part of a moment or

864
00:45:29,605 --> 00:45:32,245
Speaker 3: maybe something that will surpass a moment and be a

865
00:45:32,325 --> 00:45:34,805
Speaker 3: kind of wave of change. Part of this in the

866
00:45:34,885 --> 00:45:37,925
Speaker 3: US is coming from the Surgeon General who has declared

867
00:45:37,925 --> 00:45:41,285
Speaker 3: a loneliness epidemic, and in the UK there's a Ministry

868
00:45:41,285 --> 00:45:44,605
Speaker 3: for Loneliness. There's an understanding that there's an inadequate amount

869
00:45:44,605 --> 00:45:47,645
Speaker 3: of social connection that a lot of people have. There

870
00:45:47,685 --> 00:45:50,405
Speaker 3: are a number of books that either have just come

871
00:45:50,445 --> 00:45:53,165
Speaker 3: out or about to come out about friendship, running the

872
00:45:53,165 --> 00:45:57,325
Speaker 3: gamut from more literary works novels. There's a novel called

873
00:45:57,325 --> 00:45:59,805
Speaker 3: Significant Others that came out the week before Mind that's

874
00:45:59,845 --> 00:46:02,965
Speaker 3: a novel about the dissolution of a basically a platonic partnership.

875
00:46:03,285 --> 00:46:05,285
Speaker 3: And there are self help books that are trying to

876
00:46:05,325 --> 00:46:09,765
Speaker 3: help people have conversations or navigate tricky situations in friendship

877
00:46:09,845 --> 00:46:12,405
Speaker 3: that you know, they are a zillion books on this

878
00:46:12,525 --> 00:46:15,805
Speaker 3: for romantic relationships, but not for friendship. I've been really

879
00:46:15,845 --> 00:46:19,285
Speaker 3: heartened by the kinds of conversations I've gotten to have

880
00:46:19,405 --> 00:46:22,725
Speaker 3: with people who could talk about anything on their podcasts

881
00:46:22,765 --> 00:46:25,565
Speaker 3: and are choosing to talk about this. And I've gotten

882
00:46:25,765 --> 00:46:30,005
Speaker 3: a lot of feedback from readers that they felt like

883
00:46:30,325 --> 00:46:33,445
Speaker 3: they were seen or that they could start conversations with

884
00:46:33,485 --> 00:46:36,285
Speaker 3: friends that they wouldn't have otherwise, even if it's something

885
00:46:36,285 --> 00:46:39,125
Speaker 3: as simple as articulating how much the friend means to them,

886
00:46:39,165 --> 00:46:41,845
Speaker 3: how much they love the friend. I've heard of people

887
00:46:41,885 --> 00:46:46,365
Speaker 3: moving across countries to live with a friends, start raising

888
00:46:46,365 --> 00:46:49,205
Speaker 3: a child with a friend. So I'm hearing ways that

889
00:46:49,245 --> 00:46:53,965
Speaker 3: people are tangibly changing their lives to center their life

890
00:46:53,965 --> 00:46:57,325
Speaker 3: more around friendship, and that they have things that they

891
00:46:57,365 --> 00:46:59,365
Speaker 3: can hand over to people in their lives to explain

892
00:47:00,085 --> 00:47:02,525
Speaker 3: what friendship means to them when they might not have

893
00:47:02,565 --> 00:47:06,525
Speaker 3: felt understood previously. I'm hopeful, so much.

894
00:47:06,365 --> 00:47:09,645
Speaker 1: To think about in that episode. It's so fun, this

895
00:47:09,685 --> 00:47:13,285
Speaker 1: idea of best friends. When you get older, it starts

896
00:47:13,325 --> 00:47:17,285
Speaker 1: to sound a little bit juvenile. I like the idea

897
00:47:17,325 --> 00:47:20,925
Speaker 1: of significant others and platonic life partners. All of that

898
00:47:21,045 --> 00:47:25,285
Speaker 1: kind of language is really interesting. And through the book,

899
00:47:25,365 --> 00:47:28,525
Speaker 1: I loved the way Rayner talked about one of the

900
00:47:28,525 --> 00:47:30,245
Speaker 1: guys who were friends. I think his name was Andrew.

901
00:47:30,285 --> 00:47:34,525
Speaker 1: His mother Lisa, at first thought that his friendship with

902
00:47:34,645 --> 00:47:37,085
Speaker 1: Tolly meant that maybe they were gay and that they

903
00:47:37,125 --> 00:47:39,525
Speaker 1: weren't ready to come out and be out about it.

904
00:47:40,245 --> 00:47:42,805
Speaker 1: And then over the course of their friendship, over the

905
00:47:42,885 --> 00:47:46,005
Speaker 1: years of their friendship, when she saw what it meant

906
00:47:46,005 --> 00:47:49,245
Speaker 1: to both of them and how it enriched her son's life,

907
00:47:49,405 --> 00:47:52,205
Speaker 1: she came to understand it. And it was interesting reading

908
00:47:52,245 --> 00:47:54,485
Speaker 1: this book and hearing these stories and talking to Raina,

909
00:47:54,525 --> 00:47:58,405
Speaker 1: because at times I really felt myself bristling. I don't

910
00:47:58,405 --> 00:48:01,085
Speaker 1: know why it was kind of confronting in a way

911
00:48:01,245 --> 00:48:06,965
Speaker 1: that maybe you should organize your life around not a

912
00:48:07,045 --> 00:48:11,325
Speaker 1: romantic partner, around a friendship and prioritize them over a

913
00:48:11,405 --> 00:48:15,445
Speaker 1: romantic partner. I found that really interesting. Even though I

914
00:48:15,445 --> 00:48:17,405
Speaker 1: am not one of those people who says my husband

915
00:48:17,485 --> 00:48:20,405
Speaker 1: is my best friend, I'm one of those people who says,

916
00:48:20,845 --> 00:48:22,925
Speaker 1: I don't think I could be married if it wasn't

917
00:48:22,925 --> 00:48:26,645
Speaker 1: for my girlfriends, and I don't expect my husband to

918
00:48:26,725 --> 00:48:28,925
Speaker 1: bring everything into my life. I think that's too much

919
00:48:28,965 --> 00:48:32,485
Speaker 1: responsibility and too much pressure to put on one relationship

920
00:48:32,485 --> 00:48:36,365
Speaker 1: and one person. Anyway, tell me what you think. Rayner

921
00:48:36,445 --> 00:48:39,925
Speaker 1: Cohen's book for Significant Others, Reimagining Life with Friendship at

922
00:48:39,925 --> 00:48:42,405
Speaker 1: the Center is so good we'll put a link to

923
00:48:42,445 --> 00:48:44,845
Speaker 1: it in the show notes. The executive producer of No

924
00:48:44,885 --> 00:48:48,285
Speaker 1: Filter is Kimberly Bradish, with sound production by Leah Porgies.

925
00:48:48,605 --> 00:48:52,245
Speaker 1: They're superstars. I'm mea Friedman and I'm off to find

926
00:48:52,445 --> 00:48:54,765
Speaker 1: a new best friend. No, that's not true. I've got

927
00:48:54,805 --> 00:48:56,765
Speaker 1: lots of really good friends. I'm off to make a

928
00:48:56,845 --> 00:48:59,165
Speaker 1: leaderboard to see who's at the top. Just kidding.