Speaker 1: Hi.
Speaker 2: I'm Jemma Bath, host of True Crime Conversations, and I'm
Speaker 2: dropping into ears with an update on the case we
Speaker 2: covered just a week ago, the twenty twenty five murders
Speaker 2: of Victorian police officers Verdim de vat Hatta and Neil
Speaker 2: Thompson at the hands of Desmond Philby, who sent police
Speaker 2: on a seven month manhunt. Philby was shot dead in
Speaker 2: a standoff in March twenty twenty six after he was
Speaker 2: found hiding out on a remote property in a shipping
Speaker 2: container about one hundred kilometers from his place of residence
Speaker 2: in Porpunker. It was there at his home that he
Speaker 2: shot and killed the officers injuring a third while they
Speaker 2: were trying to conduct a search warrant based on allegations
Speaker 2: of child abuse against Philby. Now the court proceedings in
Speaker 2: this case are getting underway. On May twenty fifth, in
Speaker 2: the Victorian Coroner's Court, family, colleagues and media gathered for
Speaker 2: the opening of two inquests seven newses. Rochelle Brown was there.
Speaker 2: We asked her to walk us through what we learned. Rochelle,
Speaker 2: thank you for joining us. Firstly, can you tell us
Speaker 2: procedurally what happened in the Melbourne Coroners Court because they
Speaker 2: actually opened two inquests, which is quite unusual really in
Speaker 2: a crime, isn't it.
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me, Jemma. It is very unusual.
Speaker 1: But I mean, we've got this highly unusual situation where
Speaker 1: we've had these two parallel, awful incidents. You know, we've
Speaker 1: had the shootout involving the two police officers, those two
Speaker 1: fall on police officers, and then you've also got you know,
Speaker 1: the shootout where Desmond Philby has been killed. So you know,
Speaker 1: we've had this very unusual instance where there's these two
Speaker 1: ordeals and now we have to deal with them on
Speaker 1: a coronial level because there's no one really to charge
Speaker 1: in these instances, but they still need to investigate it.
Speaker 3: So, I mean, for people that don't kind of know.
Speaker 1: The process at home, a coronial is quite different to
Speaker 1: a criminal process. But essentially it's to make reckons to
Speaker 1: prevent similar deaths in the future, to figure out if
Speaker 1: it could have ended differently. But you know, the coroner
Speaker 1: kind of said in court it's not their role to
Speaker 1: point the finger and lay blame like you would you
Speaker 1: know in a criminal kind of procedure. It's very different
Speaker 1: to a criminal case. In that way, but there's still,
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of similar similarities. You've got evidence,
Speaker 1: you've got witnesses that we'll hear from at a later date,
Speaker 1: and a lot of investigations, so it's similar in that way, jam.
Speaker 2: But this kind of opening, it's more of like what
Speaker 2: they call a directions hearing, right, So it's kind of
Speaker 2: just like working out dates and that kind of thing.
Speaker 2: Why did we find out so much new information? What
Speaker 2: actually happened? Who spoke?
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's a directions hearing is like the very
Speaker 1: kind of start of an inquest process.
Speaker 3: But it is kind of typical.
Speaker 1: To hear a summary of what's happened, So it's sort
Speaker 1: of an agreed summary that the lawyers have all decided
Speaker 1: to be able to read out in court.
Speaker 3: So it's not unusual that we might kind of hear.
Speaker 1: This level of detail. It is procedural as well, though
Speaker 1: obviously normally you'd get a few dates. In this case,
Speaker 1: we probably didn't get as many dates as you typically.
Speaker 4: Get, and normally you might hear a little bit more.
Speaker 1: About witnesses, like who's going to come before the court
Speaker 1: and give evidence In the actual inquest, we didn't hear
Speaker 1: much of that they pretty much said a lot of
Speaker 1: that wasn't ready, but we did hear this summary, which
Speaker 1: is typical in a directions hearing before an inquest to
Speaker 1: hear that kind of level of detail.
Speaker 3: I guess it's the first chance.
Speaker 1: If you're not going through a criminal proceedings for family,
Speaker 1: for those involved to hear a bit more in depth
Speaker 1: about what happened that day.
Speaker 2: You were there in court, what was it like? Who
Speaker 2: was there? Because this was a huge story both in
Speaker 2: August last year and then when Philby was killed this year.
Speaker 2: I imagine there was a big media contingent. Who else was
Speaker 2: in that room?
Speaker 1: Yeah, there was a huge media contingent, But of course,
Speaker 1: you know, it's the loved ones that is the.
Speaker 3: Most interesting in these cases.
Speaker 1: We saw the loved ones of Neil Thompson. They were
Speaker 1: physically in court, so his sisters. There was a number
Speaker 1: of other family members that were referenced, including William's family
Speaker 1: that were on a link. So a lot of people
Speaker 1: were kind of watching remotely and not physically in court,
Speaker 1: which again is quite typical in this sort of process,
Speaker 1: given how long that you know, things can drag out
Speaker 1: and people are living elsewhere for them to tune in online.
Speaker 1: Obviously those family members often people often ask me, you know,
Speaker 1: what was the emotion, like, what was it kind of
Speaker 1: like in court with these big stories for these sisters,
Speaker 1: they sat calm, They sat composed despite hearing a lot
Speaker 1: of disturbing new detail which must have been horrific, but
Speaker 1: not unusual with these awful kind of instances that they
Speaker 1: try and remain calm in court.
Speaker 4: It's a long process that they've been through.
Speaker 1: Obviously a lot of police officers too, so there were
Speaker 1: several senior police officers, you know, you've had the likes
Speaker 1: of the homicide Squad boss Dean Thomas and the head
Speaker 1: of the Police Association, Wayne Gatt. He was also there,
Speaker 1: all kind of there in a show of support, but
Speaker 1: also they have obviously an interest in this case and
Speaker 1: seeing what happened that day as well.
Speaker 2: Let's talk about that summary you mentioned, because there was
Speaker 2: quite a lot of new information that came out that
Speaker 2: the public and the family wouldn't have known about. Let's
Speaker 2: start with why the officers were there in the first place.
Speaker 2: We were told it was a search warrant, but we
Speaker 2: were given more information in court as to what the
Speaker 2: actual search warrant was for Can you tell us about it?
Speaker 1: Yeah, as you said, we knew a lot of rough daytail,
Speaker 1: and we knew that there was some horrific child abuse allegations,
Speaker 1: but this is the first time that we've really heard
Speaker 1: specifics about that, so we learned about why police were
Speaker 1: specifically there in the first place. So he was not
Speaker 1: only accused of the sexual assault of a child under sixteen,
Speaker 1: he was also accused of attempting to involve a child
Speaker 1: in the production of child abuse material. So yeah, some
Speaker 1: pretty horrific details there, especially for those families to hear
Speaker 1: about that were sitting in court, and certainly I think
Speaker 1: that we will hear a little bit more about.
Speaker 3: That going forward, but we know that they were there.
Speaker 1: To arrest him on those allegations.
Speaker 3: They were there to seize his devices.
Speaker 1: Obviously when they got there, they got a whole lot
Speaker 1: more than they bargained for, but that's that was the purpose.
Speaker 2: I think that probably was one of the most shocking
Speaker 2: revelations because originally we kind of thought it was child
Speaker 2: abuse material, and then to hear it was an actual
Speaker 2: allegation of child abuse against Philby, like that is a
Speaker 2: whole nother kind of level of allegation really.
Speaker 3: And it's horrific.
Speaker 1: And I guess, you know, you can't even imagine these
Speaker 1: police officers. They're just there to do their jobs, you know,
Speaker 1: and they're thinking that they're walking into the situation. There's
Speaker 1: some really serious allegations playing out here. They're hoping to
Speaker 1: arrest him, and you know, his hostile from the very beginning,
Speaker 1: and you know, they kind of presented him with these
Speaker 1: allegations with a warrant, and straight away he was questioning
Speaker 1: the validity of the warrant, he was questioning why they
Speaker 1: were there. He was balling out the allegations, saying that
Speaker 1: there was nothing to them.
Speaker 3: So from the get go, this was hostile.
Speaker 2: For seven eight months, we'd kind of heard very brief
Speaker 2: details that Neil Thompson was shot first, then the dim
Speaker 2: was shot, but we didn't really have details about how
Speaker 2: that all played out. You heard in detail, didn't you, Yeah, there.
Speaker 3: Was a lot of detail.
Speaker 4: This is, as I said, the very first time that
Speaker 4: we've been out of here, a lot of this.
Speaker 3: So they negotiated with him for thirty four minutes out.
Speaker 1: Any shots were fired, essentially, you know, going back and
Speaker 1: forth over that warrant. At one point he's kind of said,
Speaker 1: you know, I want to take this to the Supreme Court.
Speaker 3: There's a dut to process for this. I want this.
Speaker 4: Before just as he told them to go to hell.
Speaker 3: You know, it was quite.
Speaker 1: Intense, and he still refused to come out of this
Speaker 1: sort of bus where he was living on that property.
Speaker 1: At the end of that negotiation, Neil Thompson starts to
Speaker 1: kind of lower himself into the bus through a window opening,
Speaker 1: and that was the first time Desmond Philly shot him.
Speaker 3: And then almost.
Speaker 1: Immediately after he shoots Vidim and as the other officers flee,
Speaker 1: they try and sick cover des he's kind of heard
Speaker 1: saying over and over, I had no choice. I had
Speaker 1: no choice. I had no choice. And then this is
Speaker 1: kind of the horrific detail that really got to me.
Speaker 1: He then he exits the bus, he approaches Vidim, he
Speaker 1: takes his gun. He later returns to his body and
Speaker 1: you know, he's swearing at him. He tells him to
Speaker 1: die and how before then shooting Neil Thompson second time.
Speaker 3: So you know that second time was what, you.
Speaker 1: Know, a very sort of new detail that I don't
Speaker 1: heard before.
Speaker 4: It was, you know, this revelation that it was not
Speaker 4: just a heated moment. This was cold blooded. This was
Speaker 4: you know, an evil action that he's come back a
Speaker 4: second time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then you know, he stands over both.
Speaker 1: Bodies after that, and he makes various remarks, some of
Speaker 1: them so awful that the lawyers would never read them
Speaker 1: out in court. They just you know, set out of
Speaker 1: respect to the families, we're not going to read those out,
Speaker 1: which is pretty shocking. It's yeah, and you can imagine
Speaker 1: kind of the mood in the courtroom as that, you know, unful.
Speaker 2: It is really shocking because often in court all of
Speaker 2: the details I've read out, you do hear all of
Speaker 2: those shocking details. But how to make that decision I'm
Speaker 2: not going to read out these remarks. You can only
Speaker 2: imagine how horrible they were. It really does leave you
Speaker 2: kind of thick thinking about.
Speaker 1: It exactly exactly, and you can, you know, you can't
Speaker 1: even imagine how those families would be feeling hearing that
Speaker 1: level of detail. I don't know how much they would
Speaker 1: have known before this, but it certainly was presented in
Speaker 1: a way that sounded like the family had never heard
Speaker 1: these details before. So you can imagine hearing that in
Speaker 1: a room full of people as opposed to you know,
Speaker 1: digesting that.
Speaker 3: On your own.
Speaker 1: You know that the awful Sometimes that core process can
Speaker 1: be absolutely awful.
Speaker 2: Victim's family very de traumatizing. Yeah, I understand that Philby
Speaker 2: also sent a message we hadn't heard about that before
Speaker 2: to his wife.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was very interesting detail. Sort of as he
Speaker 3: was fleeing, he sends.
Speaker 1: His wife at text I've got to hear it reads
Speaker 1: beb get a mile away and keep going, see you
Speaker 1: in heaven. Love. So quite as sort of chilling text
Speaker 1: message read out, And that really was the start of
Speaker 1: it all. That was the start of it. Seven months manhunt,
Speaker 1: the biggest in Victoria's history, and you know where we
Speaker 1: are today. Yeah.
Speaker 2: The other detail that was talked about a bit was
Speaker 2: the fact that Philby didn't have active firearms licenses. He didn't.
Speaker 2: They didn't believe he had guns, right, That's quite an
Speaker 2: important detail because they would have I'm assuming, and you
Speaker 2: can expand on it, they would have kind of approached
Speaker 2: that house differently, or that property differently if they'd known
Speaker 2: or assumed there would be guns there.
Speaker 3: You would think so.
Speaker 1: But I mean they did come with a contingent of
Speaker 1: ten officers. I think they were prepared, but nothing could
Speaker 1: have prepared, you know, these officers for what did unfold.
Speaker 3: He did have a gun.
Speaker 1: Licenses at some point, but they had expired long before
Speaker 1: or you know, had been suspended or expired long before
Speaker 1: this all unfolded. So certainly they didn't have intelligence that
Speaker 1: he had had active gun licenses or guns at this time.
Speaker 1: Whether that would have changed anything if they had knowing that,
Speaker 1: I get We can only speculator, I suppose, but certainly,
Speaker 1: you know, they went in with lots of detectives ready
Speaker 1: to I guess, arrest him at pounds and they always,
Speaker 1: you know, take precautions going into that.
Speaker 4: Whether it could have played out differently is anyone's guess.
Speaker 1: And whether that will be explored in the inquest is
Speaker 1: also a possibility.
Speaker 2: To more of this conversation after the break, where we'll
Speaker 2: hear more about Philby's final moments. So the murders of
Speaker 2: Vidim and Neil, they were kind of discussed in that
Speaker 2: first inquest opening in the morning, and then you came
Speaker 2: back in the afternoon to hear about the shooting death
Speaker 2: of Philby in the afternoon. What did you learn about
Speaker 2: Philby's final moments and that final standoff that we hadn't
Speaker 2: heard before.
Speaker 1: So I guess what happened to Desmond Philby is you know,
Speaker 1: long en sort of shrouded in mystery. We haven't heard
Speaker 1: as many details as we had about you know, that
Speaker 1: horrific first shooting in pull Punka, So this again was
Speaker 1: sort of the first chance to get any kind of detail.
Speaker 3: It was a lot shorter than the first in quest.
Speaker 1: Though, given that detectives are only at a certain point
Speaker 1: in investigations, they're still collecting all the information, etc.
Speaker 3: It's a lot sort of fresher, so.
Speaker 1: They did kind of acknowledge that there would be a
Speaker 1: lot less detail, but we did learn a lot of
Speaker 1: interesting things. So essentially, for those that don't know, and
Speaker 1: it's obviously two hundred kilometers from Portpunker where it's all
Speaker 1: unfolded in a shipping container, so quite far from that
Speaker 1: initial kind of shoot out. They've received intelligence that he
Speaker 1: was hiding out at that property about a week earlier.
Speaker 1: They didn't go into a great deal of detail about
Speaker 1: that intelligence, but again I'm sure we might hear a
Speaker 1: little bit more about that later on.
Speaker 3: So police arrived again. It was a period of negotiation.
Speaker 1: Almost two hours actually that they negotiated with him in
Speaker 1: this case, he tried to lure police in during those negotiations,
Speaker 1: which is quite sort of an interesting element to this
Speaker 1: whole incident. He even said at one point, come have
Speaker 1: a beer with me. We'll talk about it, you know,
Speaker 1: sort of trying to lure them inside.
Speaker 3: I suppose in the midst of.
Speaker 1: All that, he's also calling them thugs and bullies and
Speaker 1: accusing them of all being corrupt. You know, He's trying
Speaker 1: to tease them and at one point calling them cowards,
Speaker 1: saying come and get me, Come and get me. That's
Speaker 1: kind of when this all escalates. They eventually pump gas
Speaker 1: into the shipping chainer. They put sort of a hole
Speaker 1: and pumped gas in there, and that's.
Speaker 3: When he sort of emerges. He emerges with a gun,
Speaker 3: he shoots it at police. They return fire.
Speaker 1: So it's at that point that Desmond is killed. He's
Speaker 1: killed in a hail of gunfire after discharging actually the
Speaker 1: same firearm that he had stolen in that initial shootout
Speaker 1: at Putpunker, and we learned that there were eight members
Speaker 1: firing multiple rounds at him, which, yeah, we certainly didn't
Speaker 1: know the amount of police officers that had fired.
Speaker 4: You know what had really unfolded in those final moments.
Speaker 2: And something that was discussed I believe was body warm
Speaker 2: cameras because there weren't any, and they kind of explained why.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Interestingly, they didn't go into too much detail about that,
Speaker 1: only to say that there is no body warm camera
Speaker 1: footage the police that attendant weren't wearing them in saying
Speaker 1: that there is other evidence that they're going to rely on,
Speaker 1: which there's footage from up above, so aerial footage.
Speaker 3: And then there's also.
Speaker 1: Interestingly a twenty three minute recording that Desmond made on
Speaker 1: his own phone of the entire kind of back and
Speaker 1: forth and the actual shooting itself that they're going to
Speaker 1: rely on throughout this inquest process as part of the
Speaker 1: evidence too.
Speaker 2: So what are the next steps from here? We obviously
Speaker 2: heard these opening remarks, and now do police get to
Speaker 2: go away and kind of prepare their evidence a bit more?
Speaker 1: Yeah, so they put together what's called I guess a
Speaker 1: brief I think they call it a corona brief of evidence.
Speaker 1: In these kind of cases, they have some time to
Speaker 1: pull all that together. Once that's done, they can kind
Speaker 1: of come back to court and set an inquest date
Speaker 1: so there was a one date set for the initial
Speaker 1: Poorpunker shooting for the death of those two officers, which
Speaker 1: is not until twenty twenty seven.
Speaker 4: So we're looking at March twenty twenty seven, and they even.
Speaker 1: Kind of acknowledged in court that that was just an
Speaker 1: estimation at this point that could be pushed back, that
Speaker 1: could change. So we are looking at, you know, kind
Speaker 1: of months even a year before. We're really exploring a
Speaker 1: lot more of what happened and getting into that, I guess,
Speaker 1: more in depth peronial process.
Speaker 2: It's interesting because we're not often on our podcast looking
Speaker 2: at crimes that are happening right now, and so often
Speaker 2: I'm looking in retrospect at how these processes really affect
Speaker 2: families and victims loved ones because they wait for so long,
Speaker 2: They live in this kind of in the crime for
Speaker 2: so long because they don't have that like end date,
Speaker 2: and you can kind of see exactly how that's going
Speaker 2: to happen. Those families are grieving, they're trying to work
Speaker 2: through their emotions, and now they're going to have to
Speaker 2: wait a year and then hear all these new details
Speaker 2: again and go through the processes again. It's like, I know,
Speaker 2: it's not anyone's fault. This is just how court works
Speaker 2: kind of we need the time to get the police
Speaker 2: brief all together to then go to the coroner. But
Speaker 2: you can't help but think of the families and how
Speaker 2: what that weight is going to.
Speaker 3: Be, Like, yeah, it's an incredible wait.
Speaker 1: You know, often in cases that I've said on when
Speaker 1: they come to an end, you know, you ask people
Speaker 1: how they're feeling naturally when you know there's a result,
Speaker 1: and they talk often not about the result itself, but
Speaker 1: the fact that they're so relieved that this process is over.
Speaker 1: It's almost like they can't fully grieve until the court
Speaker 1: process is over, which is awful. I mean a case
Speaker 1: they said on the other day that family had waited
Speaker 1: nine years.
Speaker 2: Wow, ye nine years, that's terrific.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So, I mean in this case, it's kind of
Speaker 1: a normal sort of you know, at the time frames
Speaker 1: are pretty normal at this point, but obviously there are
Speaker 1: things that do happen that there.
Speaker 3: Is someone's fault in there and it blows out. I
Speaker 3: do think in.
Speaker 4: This case that they will get you know, it will
Speaker 4: be quite succinct.
Speaker 1: I think once we get to that in quest process,
Speaker 1: hopefully next year, it will kind of play out, and
Speaker 1: hopefully those families can yeah, I guess continue to grieve
Speaker 1: and reach their next chapter and hopefully feel some kind
Speaker 1: of finality from knowing exactly what happened.
Speaker 2: Michelle, thank you so much for joining us, and well,
Speaker 2: I guess we'll wait until next year to see what happens.
Speaker 4: That's right, Thank you for having me