Speaker 1: You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 3: Hello and welcome to Mamma Mia out Loud. It's what
Speaker 3: women are actually talking about on Friday, the third of October.
Speaker 3: I'm Holly Wainwright, I'm Jesse Stephen, I'm m vern m
Speaker 3: And here's what's on our agenda for today. There's a
Speaker 3: new etiquette guide that is supposedly for modern gentlemen. But
Speaker 3: some of it is very useful, some of it is
Speaker 3: a bit annoying, and some of it borders on the problematic.
Speaker 3: We unpack.
Speaker 2: Plus gen z are having sex in public places and
Speaker 2: they're not having a good time with it.
Speaker 3: They're struggling.
Speaker 1: And today we've got for you some of our favorite
Speaker 1: recommendations of the year that we have waited little months
Speaker 1: to tell you all about.
Speaker 4: But first, do you need an invisible day? If you
Speaker 4: if you're feeling anxious.
Speaker 1: Or angry, or disconnected or quite overwhelmed by the news.
Speaker 1: A therapist named Jennifer Chaikin says, you need a day
Speaker 1: to totally disappear.
Speaker 4: From public life. So what are the rules of.
Speaker 1: An invisible day? Well, you've got to put it in
Speaker 1: your calendar. You've got to schedule your invisible day. So
Speaker 1: let's say we go Sunday, it's going to be my
Speaker 1: invisible day. You have to tell people that you're having one,
Speaker 1: because what you don't want is for the people you
Speaker 1: would ordinarily be in contact with to panic and call
Speaker 1: the police, and then the police ruin your invisible day.
Speaker 1: So you've got to say, I'm not gonna be answering
Speaker 1: my phone, hold on, hold on, holda.
Speaker 3: So the premise of this is that on a normal
Speaker 3: Sunday you would be in contact with loads of people.
Speaker 3: So therefore, if you decide to not be on your
Speaker 3: phone that day, a lot of people will notice.
Speaker 1: Yes, and imagine you are just like pulling out the
Speaker 1: metaphorical plug.
Speaker 4: And also you might.
Speaker 1: Need to say to your partner, maybe you've got children.
Speaker 1: It's very hard to be invisible when you have children around,
Speaker 1: so you might have to say, hey, I'm going invisible
Speaker 1: on Sunday.
Speaker 4: You sought the kids.
Speaker 3: Oh, so it's in real life invisible as well as
Speaker 3: like digitally invisible.
Speaker 4: Holly, So these see.
Speaker 3: I'm midlife, I'm quite good at being invisible already.
Speaker 1: Well, you have to work out what would feel good
Speaker 1: for you. So this is part of your planning. What
Speaker 1: does your invisible day look like? Maybe you can go
Speaker 1: for a walk, you can eat whatever you want, you
Speaker 1: can do some painting, you can watch Netflix in bed.
Speaker 4: Whatever.
Speaker 1: You're invisible, so there's no judgment. You get to rest,
Speaker 1: you get to sleep. But you need to just not
Speaker 1: communicate with anyone. That means no phone, it means no email,
Speaker 1: it means no social media, and no checking the news.
Speaker 1: And it's about listening to no one's needs except your own.
Speaker 1: So like you are, just imagine you've got your Harry
Speaker 1: Potter invisibility cloak and you're just hiding.
Speaker 4: What do we think, m are you into an invisible day?
Speaker 2: I feel like, because I live alone, it's quite easy
Speaker 2: for me to have invisible days on weekends because I
Speaker 2: just stay inside and no one's there anyway. I think
Speaker 2: what will be really hard for me is the phone aspect,
Speaker 2: not having my phone on and having to tell like
Speaker 2: my parents and my family and friends, Hey, I'm going
Speaker 2: to have an invisible day. But I also be offended
Speaker 2: if I don't tell anyone and I turn my phone off,
Speaker 2: then turn my phone on the next day and I
Speaker 2: have no notifications.
Speaker 4: That's so true.
Speaker 1: Actually, I am that I have this feeling when I'm
Speaker 1: starting to feel very, very tired and probably a bit
Speaker 1: burnt out, where I fantasize about laying on my bedroom floor,
Speaker 1: head down, face first, just like maybe under my bed,
Speaker 1: and just disappearing a bit. And I think that what
Speaker 1: I am craving in that moment, it's like a visceral
Speaker 1: craving of an invisible day. And I think that the
Speaker 1: phone element is very telling that often when we try
Speaker 1: and unplug, we're still just like communicating.
Speaker 3: I know, I love being visible. I've talked about before
Speaker 3: how one of the reasons why I'm very resistant to
Speaker 3: the idea of being tracked, you know, like being on
Speaker 3: your partner's fine mine or whatever is there's something that
Speaker 3: sometimes I need to do where I am just invisible,
Speaker 3: like what I'm eating, where I'm going, where I'm spending
Speaker 3: my time, like I just it's nobody's business, and it's
Speaker 3: like for me, that's very recharging. And I do do
Speaker 3: that quite often. I mean obviously not with family and stuff,
Speaker 3: like my house is full of people, but if I
Speaker 3: do get a chance, let's say Brent's taking the kids
Speaker 3: away for a couple of days. Yeah, going invisible for
Speaker 3: a weekend is not hard for me, not hard for
Speaker 3: me at all, Like I would just be like, not
Speaker 3: really answering the group chats.
Speaker 2: But doesn't the idea of an invisible day for both
Speaker 2: of you, because both of your jobs are so reliant
Speaker 2: on being across the news cycle. If you go on
Speaker 2: visible for a day, doesn't that give you more work
Speaker 2: the next day?
Speaker 3: But what you do is, well, this is what I do.
Speaker 3: Jensey can tell us. What she does is say I
Speaker 3: want a Sunday where I basically do want to be
Speaker 3: offline as much as I can. I know that that
Speaker 3: night I'm going to need to go online and scour
Speaker 3: and check and put some ideas in and just make
Speaker 3: sure nothing terrible has happened. But I can be offline
Speaker 3: for a few hours like it's okay and it doesn't
Speaker 3: freak you out, not at all. Like if something really
Speaker 3: big happens, which often it doesn't, like it will find
Speaker 3: its way to you. I would not been able to
Speaker 3: do this job for as long as I've done it
Speaker 3: if I didn't feel like I could have a few
Speaker 3: hours away from it. Sometimes And I.
Speaker 1: Think, yeah, That's the thing is that they also say
Speaker 1: Sunday nights, I have to go weak.
Speaker 4: You can have an invisible half day.
Speaker 1: So if you feel exhausted at work and you're like,
Speaker 1: you know what, I just need five to eight to
Speaker 1: just disappear for a little while, you can also just
Speaker 1: do that. But in reading about this, I came across
Speaker 1: this concept called the window of tolerance, and it's the
Speaker 1: ideal range of emotional and physiological arousal when a person
Speaker 1: can think clearly. So we all have this window of tolerance,
Speaker 1: and it's used a lot in therapy and psychology around
Speaker 1: trauma because your window of tolerance can be very very
Speaker 1: small and you can become really like hyper aroused, really
Speaker 1: really quickly. Basically, these therapists were saying that the window
Speaker 1: of tolerance has been shrinking for a lot of us
Speaker 1: due to outside stresses, due to not properly resting, And
Speaker 1: it made me think about those periods in your life
Speaker 1: where you feel as though you just don't have a
Speaker 1: lot of bandwidth and you feel as though one time
Speaker 1: anything can set you off because your tolerance is an
Speaker 1: all time low, and how having a day to regulate,
Speaker 1: even a few hours to regulate just means that that
Speaker 1: window is wider so that you're a better used to
Speaker 1: people around you.
Speaker 3: We've been talking a lot lately on the show in
Speaker 3: different ways about how nobody knows how to behave anymore,
Speaker 3: and I feel like we've been telling We've been telling
Speaker 3: people how to behave. We've done a few subtepts about
Speaker 3: modern etiquette, and we've done them from the perspective of
Speaker 3: generations X Y Z, and people love on mom and
Speaker 3: MIA's site and on various people love an etiquette guide
Speaker 3: even now because it's like, can we just agree on
Speaker 3: some basically seems to be the vibe, right. There was
Speaker 3: one that came out last week that was specifically for
Speaker 3: men that I immediately became obsessiing it was from GQ.
Speaker 3: It was called The Gentleman's Guide to Etiquette. Do you
Speaker 3: need me to bring you up to speed quickly about
Speaker 3: what GQ is people, Yes.
Speaker 1: It's like a men's magazine, but not a pony one. No,
Speaker 1: so that GQ, but with less that we can read.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Gentlemen's Quarterly. It is nearly one hundred years Gentlemen's Quarterly.
Speaker 3: So it's called GQ, but it was originally called Gentlemen's
Speaker 3: Quarterly and are like, we haven't been doing our job.
Speaker 3: You men are all over the place. Yeah, and it
Speaker 3: has been around for nearly one hundred years. Well it's
Speaker 3: condo nast so it's like quite high status glossy mag
Speaker 3: back in the day. I mean, no magazines are that,
Speaker 3: you know, thick and glossy and fabulous anymore. But back
Speaker 3: in the day, GQ is a big deal. And being
Speaker 3: the editor of GQ is a big deal. There have
Speaker 3: been lots of famous editors of GQ. And that it's
Speaker 3: published in the UK, it's published in the US as
Speaker 3: an Australian version. The UK one is the coolest. Don't
Speaker 3: have me anyway. I think it's the American one that
Speaker 3: published this etiquette guide. And so if you went to
Speaker 3: GQ now, the kind of things you'd find in There
Speaker 3: would be lots of stuff about watches, you know, like
Speaker 3: cool watches, which celebrities are wearing, the really rare watches.
Speaker 4: How About what protein I should take?
Speaker 3: Definitely protein information, how to buy a hack sep. Yeah,
Speaker 3: And there would be like preppy sneaker guides, and there'd
Speaker 3: be interviews with male movie stars, and there'd be headlines
Speaker 3: like why leftists are suddenly lifting more weights, why you
Speaker 3: should consider a swag gap relationship, and other such things. Right,
Speaker 3: So it's a men's mac. Yeah. So the American one
Speaker 3: has published this big etiquette guide called one hundred and
Speaker 3: twenty five Rules for the Modern Gentleman, and it's like crowdsource.
Speaker 3: They've got a little panel of people, including a woman,
Speaker 3: Aviad Divinet is on there, and they have got their
Speaker 3: rules and manners in place. I want to share a
Speaker 3: few to see what you think, because I don't think
Speaker 3: these are just for men, to be honest, I think
Speaker 3: some of them are, like, yes, please adopt these men.
Speaker 3: But some of them we could all live by. Take
Speaker 3: out your AirPods when you're talking to someone, Muting does
Speaker 3: not count.
Speaker 4: I actually think that's very true.
Speaker 2: I like this one and I sent it to a
Speaker 2: few men in our office because there've been times where've
Speaker 2: approached them and not only have they not taken them out,
Speaker 2: but they've actually put them in.
Speaker 3: That's me, that's me. We should not be able to
Speaker 3: smell you unless we are embracing you. That's about fragrance,
Speaker 3: not body odor, Like how much fragrance you're wearing.
Speaker 4: That's of thumb.
Speaker 3: For all of it. For women, because when you walk
Speaker 3: past someone and you get that blast in your please,
Speaker 3: I like it, though, I go, oh, that's lovely.
Speaker 2: Sometimes it's my dad over does the colony. We'll be
Speaker 2: in like family, like in the car as a family,
Speaker 2: and I'd be like, Dad, i have to put the
Speaker 2: windows down there too much, and he'd be like, that's
Speaker 2: so mean. You always say this about Michael.
Speaker 3: So the rule is if I'm hugging you, I can
Speaker 3: smell it.
Speaker 2: Otherwise, and it has to be like a nice like ooh.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, this is a good one, I think for everybody.
Speaker 3: Never say I've already seen this. When someone sends you
Speaker 3: a funny post.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I do think I'm guilty of that.
Speaker 3: Yes, I'm guilty.
Speaker 2: Also, I want to add something to that because I've
Speaker 2: noticed when I like sharing funny posts with people. I've
Speaker 2: noticed my girlfriends, when they share something with me, it's
Speaker 2: they share it because they think I will find it funny.
Speaker 2: When men share something with me, they share it because
Speaker 2: they find it funny.
Speaker 4: Oh, that's so true.
Speaker 3: You have to cater to the person, and you're sending
Speaker 3: it to interesting. I like this particularly for men, but
Speaker 3: maybe for all of us. Never raise your voice at
Speaker 3: someone unless there's an emergency. I like that. I like
Speaker 3: that a lot. Yeah, no shouting, We're not shouting. I
Speaker 3: want to ask you about some of the dating stuff,
Speaker 3: m but I also want to get to the one
Speaker 3: that I saw some controversial headlines about. They said this,
Speaker 3: greet people, you know, with the single kiss on the
Speaker 3: left cheek, unless you're in a business setting or meeting
Speaker 3: someone for the first time, in which case stick with
Speaker 3: a handshake. If you sent someone going in for a hug,
Speaker 3: embrace it. Now. I saw some people grabbing that and going,
Speaker 3: oh my god. GQ just told all the men to
Speaker 3: kiss all the women, and we don't want you coming
Speaker 3: at us with your kisses. Okay, can I well, how
Speaker 3: do we feel broadly speaking about the single kiss on
Speaker 3: the left cheek?
Speaker 4: Okay? On Friday?
Speaker 1: Last Friday, I had a little bit of work I
Speaker 1: had to do, so I went to a cafe on
Speaker 1: my own to get this work done.
Speaker 3: Glorious.
Speaker 1: To make it even better, there was a date happening
Speaker 1: next to me right and there was a man sitting
Speaker 1: their way to and then the woman showed up and
Speaker 1: he stood and he was clearly nervous. It was delightful.
Speaker 1: He stood up and then he kissed her on one cheek.
Speaker 1: She went to pull away, he went kissed her on
Speaker 1: the other cheek and then he no, but it was awkward,
Speaker 1: and she went oh, and he said it's a bit European.
Speaker 4: And she said are you European? And he said no?
Speaker 1: And who die? This man needed to kiss her once
Speaker 1: on the left cheek, and I thought, this is why
Speaker 1: we write these guides, because we just need a clear rule.
Speaker 3: But what about man, you do know her right like?
Speaker 3: Because this one of the things that greet people you
Speaker 3: know with a single cheek? Should you greet people you
Speaker 3: don't know?
Speaker 1: I think that there is something about shaking the hand
Speaker 1: of a grown man in a situation that isn't professional
Speaker 1: that makes me feel uncomfortable, like what are you meant
Speaker 1: to do? Part of me thinks that actually going in
Speaker 1: for like a hugger and embrace is more intimate.
Speaker 2: No, I think I like the kiss on the especially
Speaker 2: meeting friends and the introduce to people. I think always
Speaker 2: kiss on the cheek. I just want all men to
Speaker 2: do this because I have seen so many men who
Speaker 2: get up to greet a woman and you can see
Speaker 2: the dread in their eyes.
Speaker 3: Yes, they don't know what they don't know what to do.
Speaker 3: They freak out.
Speaker 2: I've had a guy who had his hand crushed between
Speaker 2: a stomach and his stomach. I've like hugged a guy
Speaker 2: and I just had my all my foundation on his shirt.
Speaker 3: I don't want to be doing that. Meet me at
Speaker 3: my level, peck me on the cheek. I need clarity. Right,
Speaker 3: you're meeting someone for the first time. So you're on
Speaker 3: a date, like the people in Jesse's cafe. If you're
Speaker 3: waiting for your date to turn up, and when he
Speaker 3: turns up, are you expecting that he will greet you
Speaker 3: with a kiss on the cheek. Yes, so not just
Speaker 3: say hi, I would find a full snog.
Speaker 4: It's a kiss on the chake. It is absolutely a kiss.
Speaker 3: On the chack. Okayu.
Speaker 2: He would have been talking for about like a week
Speaker 2: or two weeks, and they're like big, Like, I'm chatting
Speaker 2: to a guy right now. We're sending like five messages
Speaker 2: per convo, so.
Speaker 4: We're all growing.
Speaker 3: I know who you are right now. Okay. Because I
Speaker 3: have an unpopular opinion about this, I'm not prudish about it.
Speaker 3: I don't mind it at all, But sometimes like, you know,
Speaker 3: you'll go to a barbecue or something, right and all
Speaker 3: your friend's partners are there, and there's a lot of men,
Speaker 3: there's a lot of women. You can spend ten minutes
Speaker 3: on all the going around kissing everybody like hi, Hi,
Speaker 3: and then you might not talk to them again for
Speaker 3: the rest of the day. And I'm like, do we
Speaker 3: all have to No?
Speaker 1: No, no, I have to kiss but I can't I
Speaker 1: kiss like eighty percent in this was just one guy
Speaker 1: that's that you refuse to kid.
Speaker 3: I know him better, so I'll kiss him, Okay twice,
Speaker 3: I'm not kissing him.
Speaker 1: The image I'm getting is a hollyway and right high
Speaker 1: fiving people. I can't get out of my head is
Speaker 1: hollywalking into a barbecue and just going hi.
Speaker 3: Putting here boys.
Speaker 1: But I think that's about efficiency, and you can see
Speaker 1: sometimes a dread in people's lives.
Speaker 4: When someone walks in.
Speaker 1: They're like, I'm gonna do the kisses, and everybody's like
Speaker 1: getting a line and it's like everyone fucking.
Speaker 3: And they always enough stepping on their feet yep.
Speaker 1: And then you go, oh, now I'm going to go
Speaker 1: and everyone's like no, no, no, no no, and you're like kiss,
Speaker 1: and then you have to do it all again, Like
Speaker 1: that's not fun for anyone. I think you can do
Speaker 1: a great wave just like a Hi guys, Hi, Hi,
Speaker 1: nice to see you all.
Speaker 4: Don't need to do all the don't need to do
Speaker 4: all the individual kissing.
Speaker 3: I would think I've done something wrong. Are there any
Speaker 3: men who shouldn't kiss you? I mean once on the
Speaker 3: left chee? Are there any men like in your work,
Speaker 3: like the people who are upset about this information being
Speaker 3: out there and seeing it as invitations for men to
Speaker 3: just come and kissin.
Speaker 1: Any corporate setting. I think anything even walk into a
Speaker 1: boardroom meeting and any work setting, any situation like that.
Speaker 1: Absolutely not. I think that we've got to be as
Speaker 1: gender neutral in the office as possible. Shaking hands fabulous.
Speaker 1: I just think I think that's fine out in public.
Speaker 3: It's funny because if I see your husband Luca at
Speaker 3: work all the time, high Luca. If I come and
Speaker 3: see Luca in a social setting, kiss Luke on the cheek.
Speaker 4: There you go.
Speaker 3: So that's the rule.
Speaker 1: There was another one that I thought was because this
Speaker 1: comes down to chivalry, right, which I do think is
Speaker 1: an awkward social tension.
Speaker 4: Very at this unpopular.
Speaker 1: Word and an unpopular word, but there is something about
Speaker 1: rules and guidelines and responsibilities that do make people feel safe.
Speaker 1: And how do you explain to young men that, you know,
Speaker 1: if you've got sons one day, they're probably going to
Speaker 1: be stronger than their mum. So how do you explain
Speaker 1: to them that helping the woman next to you on
Speaker 1: the plane to put their carry on up is a
Speaker 1: kind thing to do?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 1: Or That was one of the rules which I thought
Speaker 1: was really good. And the other one was was the rule.
Speaker 3: To always help with the carry out that I really
Speaker 3: like that. I think I fall in love with every
Speaker 3: man who I see do that.
Speaker 1: It's so nice because it's like you're taller and you're
Speaker 1: stronger generally.
Speaker 3: And the shirt lifts up a little bit.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and they go, I've got it, and I'm like.
Speaker 3: Thank you, can you see that? Biceps pitrude?
Speaker 1: The other one, oh, men who help you with the pram?
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, like I'm with stairs or whatever, And
Speaker 1: a man will often he'll just go, can I give.
Speaker 3: Your hand with that? And just gets it.
Speaker 4: You go, thank you so much.
Speaker 1: But the one that they said which was interesting was
Speaker 1: about holding the door, and it was again gender neutral man, woman,
Speaker 1: as long as it's a reasonable time hold the door
Speaker 1: open for someone. And I was like, interesting, what's a
Speaker 1: reasonable time?
Speaker 3: Though? I think we've discussed this on them Etiquette Gough.
Speaker 1: I think we discussed it in a subscriber episode, and
Speaker 1: I think somewhere between five and ten seconds, Okay, I think.
Speaker 3: I think the reason why chivalry has become tricky is
Speaker 3: because people love to weaponize chivalry. Right, Like you will
Speaker 3: hear men say things like, oh, you can't even hold
Speaker 3: a door open for a woman anymore, And I'm like,
Speaker 3: I have never complained about having a door held open
Speaker 3: for me, But I have complained, or at least certainly
Speaker 3: internally complained about sexist comments, the way that you looked
Speaker 3: at my boobs instead of my face, all of those
Speaker 3: kind of things. Like women understand, we intrinsically understand when
Speaker 3: people are treating you with respect or when people are
Speaker 3: treating you with disdain. And very few women that I
Speaker 3: have ever met would complain about anyone holding a door
Speaker 3: open for that.
Speaker 1: I've complained about going out to dinner with a man
Speaker 1: who insists on paying, but then subtly uses that later
Speaker 1: to trick you into having them Yeah, it's like I
Speaker 1: can see that transaction being used, but you're not allowed
Speaker 1: to insist on paying for my dinner and then expect
Speaker 1: anything in return.
Speaker 3: That's exactly right. That's the other thing is that who
Speaker 3: men should we have to pay for dinner? So you
Speaker 3: like some bits of chivalry and not others. And it's
Speaker 3: again women understand in my experience when somebody is giving
Speaker 3: us something to get something anyway.
Speaker 1: One day, one of my favorites and I just think
Speaker 1: we need this on the record for all our male listeners.
Speaker 4: And I'm sorry, but it is men.
Speaker 1: We don't like to discriminate, but it is always sneeze,
Speaker 1: as if you're at a library or a fish of it.
Speaker 1: I was reading this this morning, and I was downstairs
Speaker 1: getting a coffee and a man sneezed, and I thought
Speaker 1: it was an emergency, Like I thought that we needed
Speaker 1: to call the police because someone had broken into the building.
Speaker 3: Why they do that?
Speaker 4: Why do they do that?
Speaker 2: You know what I think we should do when we
Speaker 2: hear a loud sneeze, stand up and class, because that's
Speaker 2: essentially what they want.
Speaker 3: I hate to tell you this, but you know, also
Speaker 3: men's sneezes get louder as they get older, and there
Speaker 3: are women in my world who just sneeze has been
Speaker 3: the catalyst trying to push them.
Speaker 4: Because you know what this anymore selfish? It's my dad.
Speaker 1: Sneezes make literally the walls shake, and it's like you
Speaker 1: think everyone should actually listen to your sneeze, Like why
Speaker 1: don't you at least try to make it a little quiet.
Speaker 1: There is a sense of entitlement about the sneeze that
Speaker 1: I think represents a lot of other things.
Speaker 3: I love that one em I've got some other dating ones.
Speaker 3: I want to ask. Be unambiguous when asking someone out.
Speaker 3: Suggest dinner, not drinks or coffee. We've talked about this,
Speaker 3: whether that's okay or not. Imply that you'll pay, and
Speaker 3: differentiate this hang from any previous hangs, ideally with a compliment.
Speaker 3: I always love running into you. Can I take you
Speaker 3: to dinner sometime? Thoughts? Oh, I like that.
Speaker 2: I nearly cried happy tears when I read this, because
Speaker 2: I feel like when it comes to dating, it's like
Speaker 2: you both have preferences of what you like and what
Speaker 2: you don't like when it comes to chivalry, but you
Speaker 2: don't mention it yet because it's too early. So then
Speaker 2: you both play like kind of this political game of
Speaker 2: what you both deem is like acceptable social norms. So
Speaker 2: you come into the date now and I feel like
Speaker 2: I've been on dates with men who really struggle with
Speaker 2: this where they have offered to pay, and if I
Speaker 2: don't want to see them again, that's usually when I suggest,
Speaker 2: can we split the pilms? I don't want to owe
Speaker 2: them something and they kind of go, oh, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: of course, like we can split, And it's always this
Speaker 2: weird transaction where they're trying to do what they think
Speaker 2: is the quote unquote right thing, and then it's like
Speaker 2: society or like me going, no, I actually want to pay,
Speaker 2: or like no going but it said I had to insist. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I had to insist, and I'm trying to do that.
Speaker 2: Or they're like, oh, do you want the boot seat?
Speaker 2: And I was like no, because I know my bum
Speaker 2: won't fit through those two little tables, so you take
Speaker 2: the boot seat and then they're like, oh, okay, are
Speaker 2: you sure you don't like it's so weird now, like
Speaker 2: it's getting really political in dating.
Speaker 4: I have a question for you. This one came up.
Speaker 4: I really liked it.
Speaker 1: This was in the dating section the what exactly are
Speaker 1: we doing here? Conversation should happen somewhere around the fifth date,
Speaker 1: and basically you've got to answer it.
Speaker 3: And I think they should initiate it.
Speaker 2: I think they need to be because I'm always one
Speaker 2: initiating it, and then I get broken up with and
Speaker 2: I'm like, damn it, three more dates?
Speaker 1: And there were moments where I was like, it has
Speaker 1: been seven moms, Yeah, I think it's appropriate.
Speaker 3: And I'm like, oh, I'm not sure how I feel.
Speaker 3: I'm like, what do you think about the five date suggestion? There? Though?
Speaker 3: So five dates is enough time for it to be
Speaker 3: entirely acceptable for one or both of the parties to
Speaker 3: go what is this? I agree?
Speaker 2: I agree five dates because if you go on a
Speaker 2: date a week, that's essentially a month you're a month in.
Speaker 2: Surely that gives you grounds of like whether you want
Speaker 2: to keep seeing me or not?
Speaker 3: Yeah, what do you think about this? It's uncouth to
Speaker 3: show your friends someone else's dating profile. Those are meant
Speaker 3: to be seen by people on the app, and people
Speaker 3: on the app only, not your boys after you've had
Speaker 3: three drinks at the bar, or even worse, screenshotted and
Speaker 3: shared with strangers online. Don't break the contract of mutual vulnerability.
Speaker 3: Make you show me a lot of dating profile a lot,
Speaker 3: but if I ask, you'll show me. But I feel
Speaker 3: like I.
Speaker 2: Show dating profiles in the way, like, look, how cute
Speaker 2: this guy is.
Speaker 3: This is what he looks like.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you're never mean. No, that's actually a good point.
Speaker 1: I thought taking it out of context was interesting because
Speaker 1: I've seen some friends say, oh, I've saw one of
Speaker 1: your friends on a dating app and shown me, and
Speaker 1: I feel as though I'm seeing them in their.
Speaker 4: Underwear very vulnerable. Yes, that I go.
Speaker 1: That wasn't designed for me, and they deserve some privacy
Speaker 1: in this context. I also liked this one. Stop walking
Speaker 1: three feet ahead of your partner.
Speaker 3: You know, Brent does this, like he walks fast and
Speaker 3: he always walks ahead of me, and it drives me crazy,
Speaker 3: Like it's we go walking together every.
Speaker 4: Day and then they get irritated.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then I'm like, hey, I'm back here, and
Speaker 3: oh sorry, you have to walk next to your partner
Speaker 3: and you have to be on the road side so
Speaker 3: for carcarms you can save them. That was in here too.
Speaker 3: It actually so it's interesting because I see that as
Speaker 3: a bit of an old fed chivalrous move, but in
Speaker 3: here it did say sorry, I know it might be
Speaker 3: a bit old fashioned, but you have to be on
Speaker 3: that side. I thought, shit, am I supposed to tell
Speaker 3: my boy about that?
Speaker 4: I think it's kind of nice.
Speaker 3: I think when they do it quietly, it's sexy.
Speaker 2: When I was the last person I dated, he did
Speaker 2: this in a quiet way where we be walking the
Speaker 2: street and he'll just like slowly walk behind me and
Speaker 2: walk on the other side.
Speaker 3: So sexy. Oh that is hard. It's hard.
Speaker 4: But if they're pushing you out of the waving home
Speaker 4: on the roadside, it's like.
Speaker 3: That's not off the road, no yelling. I have an
Speaker 3: age gap one that I need to ask Jesse about
Speaker 3: because she has opinions. The age gap rule for adults.
Speaker 3: This is for adults. Remember used to be that men
Speaker 3: shouldn't date below half your age plus seven. We like
Speaker 3: SAGEGQ half your age plus ten. Hey, nothing's inflation proof,
Speaker 3: they joke. We can call this the gentleman's age gap
Speaker 3: and know your metabolic age doesn't count.
Speaker 1: So I worked out it took me literally twenty four
Speaker 1: hours maths on this, but I was like, I think
Speaker 1: I broke this rule. At the beginning, but I have
Speaker 1: got in the clear as the years have gone on.
Speaker 1: I think now if I'm thirty four, then that means
Speaker 1: I could date a.
Speaker 4: Twenty two year old.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that sounds rare that Yeah.
Speaker 4: And Luca's twenty eight. Oh my goodness, it's totally fine.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Did it look bad like at the beginning, Maybe a
Speaker 1: little bit. But the thing about age is you generally
Speaker 1: get older.
Speaker 4: So I've been.
Speaker 2: Dating younger recently because everyone my age and older all
Speaker 2: have kids, and I'm like, oh, I actually don't know
Speaker 2: what to do with that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well you've not caught them at their first divorce yet.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you got a way. I've got to wait
Speaker 3: it out. Yeah, half your age plus seven four like
Speaker 3: man in their forties plus ten. They said, oh, plus ten,
Speaker 3: that's right, which doesn't cause I'm four a forty four
Speaker 3: year old divorcee. Yeah. In this rule would be we're
Speaker 3: so bad at maths, all of thirty two thirty two.
Speaker 3: Mine would be like twenty five.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you're allowed to do twenty five. You haven't
Speaker 1: done younger than twenty five.
Speaker 3: I've done younger than twenty five. Twenty threeman's age. I
Speaker 3: met a.
Speaker 2: Nineteen year old in the club recently. Oh, that's a
Speaker 2: bit of it scared me. He was very into it, and
Speaker 2: I was like, no, no, in your life.
Speaker 1: There was one I really liked, which was when someone
Speaker 1: you know has a baby arranged to send them dinner
Speaker 1: one night during the first month. And the reason I
Speaker 1: liked that one is because I thought about all the
Speaker 1: social rules that have passed through generations of women, because
Speaker 1: we're socialized to communicate and to almost share that kind
Speaker 1: of etiquette, like I've just learned from osmosis, from watching
Speaker 1: my mum, what you're kind of meant to do. And
Speaker 1: what was really cool about that one is I thought
Speaker 1: their fathers probably didn't.
Speaker 4: Do that or didn't know you were meant to do that.
Speaker 1: True, and it's a nice generational shift to think that
Speaker 1: men will now go, oh, my mate, who's just had
Speaker 1: a baby, I'm actually going to do something. And they
Speaker 1: said the same thing applies for illness or if someone's
Speaker 1: in hospital, just one dinner.
Speaker 3: I was like, yeah, that's nice. This one is crucial
Speaker 3: in the summer. Take two hours a day.
Speaker 4: Yep, completely agree, morning and night.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a two shower situation. Don't get into do
Speaker 3: you take two showers a day. In the summer, I
Speaker 3: am a morning shower. I think we've discussed this before.
Speaker 3: You're a nighttime shower, aren't you.
Speaker 1: Just I do both. I do get night sweats. Because
Speaker 1: of my night sweats, I do have to have.
Speaker 4: A morning shower. And then I also, you got to
Speaker 4: be nice and clean when you get into bed.
Speaker 3: Now, I'm a morning shower, so I do definitely get
Speaker 3: into bed dirty. But in the summer, I appreciate this
Speaker 3: one in that like if I'm going out, you know
Speaker 3: what I mean, Like I'm showering in the morning like normal,
Speaker 3: but then I'm showering again later if I'm going out
Speaker 3: doing something right.
Speaker 2: Okay, I want to point out rule number sixty eight.
Speaker 2: No man who doesn't post for work sho'd have a
Speaker 2: public Instagram.
Speaker 3: That is a really controversial rule. Do you think I
Speaker 3: had never considered that there was something ungentlemanly or unmasculine
Speaker 3: whatever that means about men having social media.
Speaker 1: I incctively agree with it, and I've heard and it's wrong,
Speaker 1: Like I've heard MSA.
Speaker 4: Public instagrams are for the girls.
Speaker 3: What if they enjoy it? That's just a I struggle
Speaker 3: with that. I want to know if out louders think
Speaker 3: that's true, Like if a man enjoys like the sharing
Speaker 3: photos Facebook too.
Speaker 1: No, no one knows what they're doing with their settings
Speaker 1: on Facebook. I feel like Brent's definitely public on Facebook.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, Brent, it's definitely public. But like I'd
Speaker 3: never considered it before. It's very interesting to me. Now
Speaker 3: I'm going to see it everywhere. I'm going to be like, oh,
Speaker 3: he's got a public Instagram. I don't know block out
Speaker 3: loud as. I need to know if you agree out
Speaker 3: louders gen z.
Speaker 2: Are having sex in all sorts of public places, and
Speaker 2: we really need an unpack.
Speaker 4: Why out Louders.
Speaker 1: We've got a listener dilemma and we need your collective
Speaker 1: wisdom to help us and our partner's UI solve it.
Speaker 4: Please.
Speaker 1: Here is the problem from our listener. Two and a
Speaker 1: half years ago, I visited my brother in law's house
Speaker 1: with my partner and our nine month old son. They
Speaker 1: had just adopted a massive bull Mastiff, their first dog ever,
Speaker 1: and they weren't familiar with dog behavior. When my sister
Speaker 1: in law picked up my crawling baby, she started yelling
Speaker 1: at the dog and batting the dog away. I saw
Speaker 1: the dog stiff and growl and go to Mauth that
Speaker 1: my son. I immediately asked if we could put the
Speaker 1: dog outside, but I was dismissed as overprotective. When my
Speaker 1: brother in law let the dog straight back in, I
Speaker 1: packed up and we left. Since then, they've ignored me
Speaker 1: at every family event. My brother in law even lied
Speaker 1: claiming the dog never made a move despite not being
Speaker 1: in the room. My partner says our son's safety comes first,
Speaker 1: but he won't address his brothers lie or how his
Speaker 1: family treats me. He's openly said he'll always choose his
Speaker 1: family over me. I don't need him to cut off
Speaker 1: his family. I just want to stop being treated like
Speaker 1: the villain. The real issue isn't the dog anymore. It's
Speaker 1: how unsupported I feel. I'm tired of always being the
Speaker 1: bigger person while they rewrite history and punish me for
Speaker 1: basic parenting. How long am I expected to sit quietly
Speaker 1: while his family freezes me out for doing what any
Speaker 1: parent would do?
Speaker 4: What do you do next?
Speaker 2: I have a question for the relationship is on the table,
Speaker 2: which is the two of you saying to your partner
Speaker 2: openly and freely, I will always choose my family over you.
Speaker 3: Is that a red flag?
Speaker 1: That's a real red flag, because it's like, I didn't
Speaker 1: ask you to choose.
Speaker 4: I feel like that's.
Speaker 1: A weird pitting them against each other. Like I wouldn't
Speaker 1: want him ever to say or pick you over my
Speaker 1: family or pick my family over you. That's not what
Speaker 1: she's asking him to do. So it feels like it
Speaker 1: almost quite a manipulative I think to say.
Speaker 3: I think it's a red flag for him to bring
Speaker 3: it up like that. Like Jesse says, in my experience,
Speaker 3: you should never make anybody try and choose. And I
Speaker 3: have seen it happen where a woman might have gone
Speaker 3: into relationship and she doesn't like the mother in law
Speaker 3: and so she kind of she's like me, yeah, and
Speaker 3: it never works out. Well, you can't slug off other
Speaker 3: people's family. She just can't, not in like a serious
Speaker 3: way anyway. But this is really weird. This is so
Speaker 3: weird because two and a half years this is weird.
Speaker 3: Right the incident in the first place, there's no question
Speaker 3: in my mind that our questioner was in the right there.
Speaker 3: Agree put the bloody dog outside. I love dogs. I've
Speaker 3: got a dog who some people are scared of and
Speaker 3: I've had dog breeds in the past that people don't
Speaker 3: like you are sensitive to that you put the dog outside.
Speaker 3: Of course you do likeh forget it holding on to
Speaker 3: that for two and a half years, I just wouldn't
Speaker 3: be going to family functions.
Speaker 1: I wondered if it was a matter of picking up
Speaker 1: the phone, Like, you've got two options, right, you don't
Speaker 1: go to the family functions, or you call the sister
Speaker 1: in law slash brother in law whoever you feel like
Speaker 1: has more of the beef, and you go, can we
Speaker 1: just not this out?
Speaker 3: Can we just been two and a half years?
Speaker 1: Can you just this is what I felt happened. I
Speaker 1: was worried that something was going to happen with my kids.
Speaker 1: Like whether it's a misunderstanding or it feels like it
Speaker 1: got out of hand, whatever, I think you've got to
Speaker 1: at least try to nut it out. But I also
Speaker 1: understand her feeling like she's not being backed up or
Speaker 1: supported by her partner husband. That's really really not good.
Speaker 3: So what should she do next? So you say, wake
Speaker 3: up the phone. I say, in my non confrontational style,
Speaker 3: just don't go to any more family events.
Speaker 2: I say, talk to the husband and be like, dude,
Speaker 2: come on, sort it out.
Speaker 3: This is your favor.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is true, that's when you And also he
Speaker 2: kind of agreed initially, like he also like yeah, was
Speaker 2: with her and like they picked up the baby and left.
Speaker 2: So initially he was like on her quote unquote side,
Speaker 2: And now just feels a bit weird that he's just like,
Speaker 2: I don't know what to do.
Speaker 3: Out louders, what would you do next? Share your thoughts
Speaker 3: in the moment. We are out loud Facebook group and
Speaker 3: if you have a dilemma, send it to us at
Speaker 3: out loud, at momamea dot com, dodau.
Speaker 2: We would love to help you fix it. Chensey, don't
Speaker 2: know where to have sex?
Speaker 4: Have you been having sex in public? Again?
Speaker 3: It's really stressing us. What's been going on?
Speaker 2: Okay, So love Honey did a survey and they found
Speaker 2: that forty percent of the responding to a age between
Speaker 2: eighteen and twenty four were living with their parents. I
Speaker 2: have a lot of friends who either still live with
Speaker 2: their parents or had to move back in with their parents,
Speaker 2: and a lot of them are over the age of twenty.
Speaker 3: Four as well.
Speaker 2: Out of the people they surveyed, also, fifty six percent
Speaker 2: of respondent said that they had to stop masturbating or
Speaker 2: having sex because they had been interrupted, which I feel
Speaker 2: like is too high.
Speaker 3: Of a percentage.
Speaker 2: So gen Z have had to get a bit creative
Speaker 2: where they're having sex. A lot of them have said
Speaker 2: that they're now having sex in public places. Most of
Speaker 2: them said that they've been having sex in public bathrooms.
Speaker 3: Oh wow, stop it, they're not hygienic. What's wrong with cars?
Speaker 3: Young people have been having sex in cars for many years.
Speaker 3: I guess you. Cars are expensive. I say, this is
Speaker 3: part of the cost of living crisis. Now the payment
Speaker 3: for it is that we have to watch out what
Speaker 3: we touch in bathrooms. We want to go get we
Speaker 3: can't be doing that. It's a whole other bit.
Speaker 2: You're doing that when you guys were teenagers. How are
Speaker 2: you getting creative in getting a bit sexy.
Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting that you say that, because I did
Speaker 1: a call out to the out loudest. Oh there's some
Speaker 1: dirty gaps among our out louders, And we did an
Speaker 1: anonymous poll and we said, where is the weirdest place
Speaker 1: where you've had sex in public? And the interesting detail
Speaker 1: I kept say coming up was when they were around
Speaker 1: this age, So nineteen twenty twenty one. It was public parks,
Speaker 1: lots of car parks like in cars car parks.
Speaker 4: And the other one that was probably the most popular
Speaker 4: was the cinema right towards the back.
Speaker 3: Cameras. Do they it's dark? Yeah?
Speaker 2: No, they have cameras because I'm watching you, because I'm
Speaker 2: checking to see if you're filming the movie.
Speaker 3: So then they come with their little tour a lot.
Speaker 2: Of things really, and the person coming a little torch
Speaker 2: is usually another teenager.
Speaker 3: I really said supermarket.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I wondered about I wonder which is which exactly?
Speaker 3: Surely the cheese for safe sex purposes, I hope it
Speaker 3: was the condom and loub section. And then some people
Speaker 3: said in a fire truck, there's a story there. That's
Speaker 3: the really outing story there. A church that's a bit kinky, a.
Speaker 4: Church a graveyard came up as well.
Speaker 3: It feels like I'm making a statement. Hotel balcony that
Speaker 3: makes sense. Paddocks of a winery.
Speaker 4: Another one that came up a lot.
Speaker 1: And I want us to sort of dissect this as
Speaker 1: a team, because, as you say, am not everyone has
Speaker 1: a car, Yeah, so what do they need to get
Speaker 1: an uber?
Speaker 4: Now?
Speaker 1: A lot of people taxis and ubers. We did discuss
Speaker 1: in our Etiquete guard a little while ago, what are the.
Speaker 3: Driver's doing while that's happening.
Speaker 2: I remember I told you guys how happened to my
Speaker 2: friends and she got kicked out and charged seventy dollars
Speaker 2: for public in decency.
Speaker 4: Right, so you're not allowed you're not allowed to be
Speaker 4: doing that.
Speaker 3: I want to know if the person she was having
Speaker 3: sex with in the back of the uber split that. Fine, ooh,
Speaker 3: that's a good attiquate question. Should you split the five?
Speaker 1: Actually, I'm going to put it out there Jena Win's guide.
Speaker 1: If you and a partner get done for public indecency,
Speaker 1: I think you've got to pay, as.
Speaker 3: Honestly what they think of. I think it's dependent on
Speaker 3: who's doing the most movement, because surely you're caught who's
Speaker 3: we're showing the most flesh? Like, how indecent did it get?
Speaker 2: I feel like a lot of these responses though it's
Speaker 2: not much I need to have sex because there's nowhere
Speaker 2: else for me to have sex, and it's more voyeurism.
Speaker 3: I think there's two different types of public sex. Yes, right,
Speaker 3: there's public sex as a necessity and the other week,
Speaker 3: I was walking across Hyde Park in the middle of Sydney,
Speaker 3: like a sort of five o'clockish, and there was this
Speaker 3: couple on the under a tree sunny evening, you know,
Speaker 3: like I don't think we're having sex, but they're really
Speaker 3: going for it. And I remember thinking oh, and then
Speaker 3: like ooh and then ah. But it took me back
Speaker 3: very viscerally to times in my life where I didn't
Speaker 3: have anywhere to go to have sex because of flatmates,
Speaker 3: because you're sleeping on someone's couch because whatever, and like
Speaker 3: I was traveling or whatever, and that there was a
Speaker 3: very visceral need. You were seeing somebody and you're physically
Speaker 3: obsessed with each other, and you're young and you're hot
Speaker 3: and everything. There's that kind of public sex which is
Speaker 3: like no one can see us. It's almost like you
Speaker 3: think you're invisible, like an ostrich with their head in
Speaker 3: the sun, Like no one can tell what we're doing,
Speaker 3: and everyone can tell what you're doing. But then there's
Speaker 3: public sex for the fun of it, right the borderline,
Speaker 3: Oh we might get caught.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So the hotel balcony that came up a lot
Speaker 1: and someone said it would be easier for me to
Speaker 1: list where I haven't had public sex, like.
Speaker 3: Wow, well, because it's some people's kink, it's.
Speaker 1: Their kink, right, But when I've seen the most public
Speaker 1: sex has been traveling. So if you go to Italy
Speaker 1: or Greece and you go, you know what, you're staying
Speaker 1: at a hostel in a bunk bed.
Speaker 4: Yeah, both of you are. You don't know what to do.
Speaker 1: So you are currently on a beach lounge on a
Speaker 1: pebbled beach and it's dark, but it's not that dark,
Speaker 1: and we can hear you and see you and whatever.
Speaker 1: But you just go, fine, fine, you guys have fun,
Speaker 1: and that's totally fine. But I was reading about Japan
Speaker 1: because in Japan they have something called love hotels.
Speaker 4: Have you heard of this?
Speaker 3: That's by the hour, right, yes, so fifteen minutes.
Speaker 1: You don't want to pay for an hour and then
Speaker 1: be like, oh, can I have a refund? Amelia told
Speaker 1: me about it. So basically, there are more than thirty
Speaker 1: seven thousand of these love hotels all over Japan. And
Speaker 1: the reason why they're so big in Japan is because
Speaker 1: of multigenerational living, yes and how and the close quarters
Speaker 1: lots of apartment buildings with really really thin walls, So
Speaker 1: it is totally customary that you m are going out
Speaker 1: on a date and that you would book a love
Speaker 1: hotel afterwards, and you can get a really yucky dingy
Speaker 1: one that smells bad, or you could get a pimped
Speaker 1: out mirror on the ceiling BDSM equipment, like all of
Speaker 1: this stuff.
Speaker 3: And the thing to cater to your particular need anything.
Speaker 3: There's another market who need this, and that is we've
Speaker 3: touched on it the other week, but it's parents with
Speaker 3: teenage kids at home, right, because once your kids stop
Speaker 3: going to bed at a certain time and they're just
Speaker 3: wandering around the house at all hours, and people's houses
Speaker 3: are small and you've got thin walls and other things,
Speaker 3: there are no times to have sex in your your
Speaker 3: own home. So I feel like the middle aged people
Speaker 3: also want the love hotels.
Speaker 1: Also, you know who else needs them are people having affairs,
Speaker 1: And I wonder if they are often forced into public
Speaker 1: sex because it's like you can't go to your marital bed.
Speaker 4: That would be disrespectful.
Speaker 3: Well, that's what cars are for, obviously, and also why
Speaker 3: in every American movie you always get busted having a
Speaker 3: fair because your car is in the motel car Pa
Speaker 3: but the gen z is not being able to afford
Speaker 3: living by themselves or living with the roommates out of home.
Speaker 1: It's actually affecting me even though I live alone, because
Speaker 1: does it always have to be your place?
Speaker 3: It's always at my place?
Speaker 2: But even more so when you're living with your parents,
Speaker 2: and even if you're an adult in your thirties, you
Speaker 2: still have to tell them that you're going out to
Speaker 2: have sex and then come back. I was seeing this
Speaker 2: guy two years ago and he was living with his parents,
Speaker 2: and it was always at my place. And then one
Speaker 2: night he messaged me and he was like, Babe, come
Speaker 2: over my parents on home and there's something so I'm
Speaker 2: sexy with a twenty seven year old saying my parents
Speaker 2: are Yeah.
Speaker 1: After the break, we have some very special recommendations for
Speaker 1: you that we have been waiting to shout from the rooftops.
Speaker 4: We're going to tell you why some.
Speaker 1: Of the best books of the year all dropped this week.
Speaker 3: One unlimited out loud access. We dropped episodes every Tuesday
Speaker 3: and Thursday exclusively for Mamma Mia subscribers. Follow the link
Speaker 3: at the show notes to get us in your ears
Speaker 3: five days a week, and a huge thank you to
Speaker 3: all our current subscribers.
Speaker 2: Vibes ideas atmosphere, something casual, something fun.
Speaker 3: This is my best recommendation.
Speaker 1: It's Friday, so we want to help set up your
Speaker 1: weekend with our best recommendations. We have enough recommendations to
Speaker 1: last fe a few months, I think we do.
Speaker 4: This is the lead up to Christmas.
Speaker 3: Some might say it's the week that all the books
Speaker 3: come out.
Speaker 1: Holly, please explain why it is that this kind of
Speaker 1: first week of October. We've got as Sally Hepworth, We've
Speaker 1: got a Trent Dalton, We've got a Claire Stevens, we've
Speaker 1: got a Jane Harpark.
Speaker 4: Why are they all dropping?
Speaker 3: So September October is the big league of book release.
Speaker 3: So there are a few times during the year when
Speaker 3: people release books, when the publishing houses release books, and
Speaker 3: they're all jostling for a bit of airtime for starters.
Speaker 3: But also the lead up to Christmas is really big.
Speaker 3: So in Britain it's actually called Super Thursday, and it's
Speaker 3: the second Thursday in October when all the big big
Speaker 3: guns will all come out and then they will all
Speaker 3: jostle to be the number one Christmas book. Right, we're
Speaker 3: not quite like that here, but the last week of September,
Speaker 3: because books are always released on the last Tuesday of
Speaker 3: the month. So my last book came out in the
Speaker 3: last Tuesday of April, and the reason for that is
Speaker 3: it was a lead up to Mother's Day release. That's
Speaker 3: also quite a good window for what they call women's fiction.
Speaker 3: So that's quite a good window. But the next really
Speaker 3: good window is now, which is lead up to summer reading,
Speaker 3: holiday reading, gifting. All those things give people a reason
Speaker 3: to Bible. And what generally happens is, you know, the
Speaker 3: really big names, you Jane Harper's and your big international
Speaker 3: authors are going to go a little bit later, closer
Speaker 3: to Christmas because they can afford to hold on a
Speaker 3: little bit. And then this week is when all the
Speaker 3: big books come out, and then they're all jostling. So
Speaker 3: we're going to talk about some books that we read
Speaker 3: ages ago that are coming out this week and whether
Speaker 3: they are worth your time. Obviously, the recommendations that we're
Speaker 3: giving you are all worth your time, and one of
Speaker 3: them is Somebody very close to home. Yes, do you
Speaker 3: want me to take Sally to take Mad Mabel?
Speaker 4: Mad Mabel one of my favorite books of the year.
Speaker 4: Please take it away.
Speaker 3: Also, can I say excellent cover? Yes? So Sally Hepwuss
Speaker 3: has become, without question, one of Australia's biggest writers, biggest
Speaker 3: author's friend of the pod I sell. She was one
Speaker 3: of the many people who texted me on Tuesday morning
Speaker 3: said I hope you're doing an episode about Nicole and
Speaker 3: Keith like we've got you.
Speaker 1: Sal.
Speaker 3: Don't worry when you ask Sally what kind of books
Speaker 3: you write, because it's one of the hardest questions to
Speaker 3: answer as an author. I think especially there's what kind
Speaker 3: of books do you? People always ask you that when
Speaker 3: you say I'm a writer, what kind of books do
Speaker 3: you write? I don't know good ones, Sally says. She
Speaker 3: writes about dysfunctional families with the side of murder. And
Speaker 3: that is what all Sally's books are. And they are
Speaker 3: all brilliant and I know out Loud has already loved them.
Speaker 3: But the thing is is Sal for Ages was on
Speaker 3: a one book a year. She was always had a
Speaker 3: book out, so everyone had all the Salis. You knew
Speaker 3: every year you're going to go to Sally. And then
Speaker 3: the last couple of years she's left us hanging. She
Speaker 3: did an Adele. She did an adele, she decided she
Speaker 3: needed a bit more time, and so Mad Mabel, I
Speaker 3: feel like there's even more like anticipation for it because
Speaker 3: we've been a bit staffed of self. So very top line,
Speaker 3: Mad Mabel is about this fiction, obviously, as her books are,
Speaker 3: is about the youngest woman to be convicted of murder
Speaker 3: in Australia, and it's now visiting Mad Mabel as she
Speaker 3: was called in the press, as a much older woman
Speaker 3: and elderly woman looking back at her life. Right. Oh,
Speaker 3: in the first pages of the book, just the voice
Speaker 3: of this character is so stark, and she's so funny
Speaker 3: and cutting and interesting, and as Sally Oas does, there's
Speaker 3: a hook on every page. You're like, Oh, I can't
Speaker 3: believe what's going to happen next. It's so great.
Speaker 4: It's so great.
Speaker 1: I raced through it, absolutely loved it, Mad Mabel. And
Speaker 1: the other one, Holly, that you wanted to recommend is
Speaker 1: Trent Dlton's new.
Speaker 3: One, Trent Dalton's new one Gravity, let Me Go Now Again,
Speaker 3: Australian Treasure Trent Dalton. Everybody loves Trent and his books
Speaker 3: ever since. Obviously, Boyce Waller's Universe are always a major event.
Speaker 3: And he's done nonfiction in that time, he's done love
Speaker 3: stories and so on. This is a novel. It is great.
Speaker 3: It's a murder mystery, but it's got the character and
Speaker 3: he says it's its most personal ever, and you can
Speaker 3: totally see that. The main character in this is a
Speaker 3: crime writer from Brisbane. All Trent's books are set in
Speaker 3: suburban Brisbane. It's like the suburbs are living and breathing
Speaker 3: and the pavements are hissing through the pages. But it's
Speaker 3: a true crime writer who's had a big hit with
Speaker 3: this unsolved murder book, and that's really interesting. Plot runs
Speaker 3: through the book of like what really happened with that
Speaker 3: and who did that murder and that stuff. So there's that,
Speaker 3: but also it's about the effect of this obsession on
Speaker 3: the writer, which is very much a Trent Dalton squ character.
Speaker 3: He's got a wife and two teenage kids, and the
Speaker 3: effect of his sort of, as he writes it, his
Speaker 3: self obsession of disappearing into this story and becoming so
Speaker 3: obsessed with it and what that's done to his marriage
Speaker 3: to his wife, his kids. One day, his wife just
Speaker 3: stops talking, just wait up and just stops talking, and
Speaker 3: it's like a really interesting meditation on long term relationships,
Speaker 3: what women will put up with, what our obsession with
Speaker 3: our work and our status can do to our families,
Speaker 3: as well as just having all of the charm that
Speaker 3: is writing always does, and this really good mystery at
Speaker 3: the center of it. I loved it and I would
Speaker 3: highly recommend both of those two also great presents.
Speaker 4: Can't wait to read Trance. Look.
Speaker 1: My recommendation is my twin sister, Claire Stevens. Her book
Speaker 1: was officially published this week. It is called the worst
Speaker 1: thing I've ever done anyone in the public eye. And
Speaker 1: there's a lot of people in the public eye who
Speaker 1: got an early copy of this book and they have
Speaker 1: just messaged her and gone, oh my god, you got it,
Speaker 1: like you absolutely nailed it. She's got this incredible endorsement
Speaker 1: from Tim Minchin, who said that she wides barefooted and
Speaker 1: open hearted into the toxic swamp of psychopathic social justice
Speaker 1: bullying and emerges with a moving and entertaining tale for
Speaker 1: our times. You may presume the online madness is exaggerated,
Speaker 1: trust me, it ain't, and that's exactly right. It's an
Speaker 1: unflinching look at digital media, which I think will make
Speaker 1: us all feel a bit uncomfortable because it is so
Speaker 1: so close, very close. It's about the experience of public
Speaker 1: shaming and the way the Internet refuses to forgive, but
Speaker 1: then also the grace and love we show in.
Speaker 4: Our private lives.
Speaker 1: But what everyone's going to be talking about is the
Speaker 1: big twist. It has a massive twist at the end
Speaker 1: that is incredibly unexpected. It is just outstanding. The reviews
Speaker 1: the feedback have been amazing. You have to go and
Speaker 1: read it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're going to be seeing it everywhere. Yeah, and
Speaker 3: I know that when people listening to this ago, you
Speaker 3: know all those people, but it's like, these are the
Speaker 3: books you're going to be seeing everywhere. Yeah, and they
Speaker 3: are all worth your time. Yeah. Yeah. Speaking of Clasty,
Speaker 3: and she's been doing a lot, She's been busy, gat
Speaker 3: It's been a very clear Steven this kind of time.
Speaker 1: She was on No Filter this week with Kate lane Brook.
Speaker 1: That episode is going off.
Speaker 3: Same day as No Filter.
Speaker 2: On Monday, her podcast The Pylon dropped with two episodes
Speaker 2: with Hannah Ferguson, who's the co founder and CEO of
Speaker 2: Cheek Media. I think this podcast goes really well with
Speaker 2: the book she's just written, and I have my copy
Speaker 2: and I'm waiting for the long weekend so i can
Speaker 2: read it. But I just forgot how much I loved
Speaker 2: Claire's interviewing style, even when she was editor here at
Speaker 2: Me and a boss, like I remember, like we just
Speaker 2: be in these like pitch meetings, and the way she
Speaker 2: would explain stories was just so well done and so thoughtful.
Speaker 2: And I listened to both of these. So she dropped
Speaker 2: the first two episodes with Hannah Ferguson, and I listened
Speaker 2: to both of them back to back because I was
Speaker 2: just it was.
Speaker 3: Just so.
Speaker 2: Good, and I was really nervous to listen to it
Speaker 2: because with these podcasts where it's like the Pylon and
Speaker 2: talking about like the over critique that someone's faced, especially
Speaker 2: in media, I'm always scared that they're going to get
Speaker 2: an over generous edit and it will change like point
Speaker 2: of views. But it really didn't like she kind of
Speaker 2: let Hannah just take whatever she wanted to say and
Speaker 2: like make her own story out of it, and I
Speaker 2: thought it was just so so well done.
Speaker 3: It's a little bit of that interview I struggled with
Speaker 3: a little bit. I have to say, might make out
Speaker 3: loud as we listened to it. But there's a little
Speaker 3: bit where Claire asks.
Speaker 2: I know what I'm gonna say, And I also got
Speaker 2: a bite and about a story that Jesse wrote for
Speaker 2: Mom and Meat some years ago that Cheak media critiques.
Speaker 3: And it's really interesting the way that they have that
Speaker 3: conversation and both of them welcome it it with an
Speaker 3: open heart. But I found some parts of that quite
Speaker 3: hard to listen to. I'm just going to say, I
Speaker 3: think it's did you know like that was going to happen?
Speaker 1: Yes, Claire played it to me before and she said, like,
Speaker 1: are you comfortable with it? I'll cut it if you're not,
Speaker 1: And I was like, no, I think that it's important
Speaker 1: that it sits there. And you can kind of disagree
Speaker 1: with how that whole thing played out. She talks in
Speaker 1: it about how there was just a disagreement on the
Speaker 1: internet and how we then reference that disagreement behind a
Speaker 1: subscriber episode and the reason and we weren't in the
Speaker 1: room so we couldn't say this, But the reason that
Speaker 1: we didn't name her or name Cheek in that conversation
Speaker 1: was actually because we didn't want to set people on them,
Speaker 1: not because we didn't want to, you know them traffic anyway.
Speaker 3: It's a bit weedy, it's a bit, but it's it's
Speaker 3: really interesting. I think one of the things about obviously
Speaker 3: Claire's book and the podcast is that it's very behind
Speaker 3: the scenes of this world that we all live in,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. So I think that if
Speaker 3: you've ever wondered, like, what's it like to have every
Speaker 3: word you know, dissected, have people so many opinions about you,
Speaker 3: be at the bottom of a pylon, if you've wondered
Speaker 3: what it's the last stuff it's really it's going to
Speaker 3: tell you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And to be Hannah Ferguson at a time when
Speaker 1: the criticism is so ruthless, just awful, and Claire did
Speaker 1: this interview and then the next week probably one of
Speaker 1: the most kind of awful moments of Hannah Ferguson's career
Speaker 1: came and Claire sat down with her again, and that's
Speaker 1: why you get part two. And I just think that
Speaker 1: the candidness, the generosity of Hannah to actually share it
Speaker 1: is really brave, because you do have these conversations with
Speaker 1: people in media when no one else is listening, So
Speaker 1: to put it on a public platform I think is
Speaker 1: a really powerful thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we're living at a time right now where there
Speaker 3: are people saying awful, heenous things about these young women
Speaker 3: are just I can't anyway, It's very interesting. So that's
Speaker 3: lots of things you to read and listen to. There
Speaker 3: are more big books coming out this week that I'm
Speaker 3: sure we'll be recommending it over the next few weeks too,
Speaker 3: But I think that's about it for today. A big
Speaker 3: thank you to all of you out louders for being
Speaker 3: here with us this week as always, and to our
Speaker 3: fabulous team for putting the show together. Don't forget friends
Speaker 3: to listen to Parenting out Loud. There's a new episode
Speaker 3: dropping tomorrow where Amelia and Mon's and Stacy are going
Speaker 3: to talk about the eldest Daughter theory and what Taylor
Speaker 3: Swift has to do with it. Find Parenting out Loud
Speaker 3: in its own feed by searching for Parenting out Loud
Speaker 3: and tapping follows so you don't miss a single episode.
Speaker 4: A big thank you to our team.
Speaker 1: I want to just give a very special shout out
Speaker 1: to our long time executive producer Emily and Cazillis, who
Speaker 1: this week goes off to have her first baby, and
Speaker 1: that woman has smiled every day.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, she's amazing. Weird, Like, I will miss
Speaker 3: m so much because she is the calm, heartbeat of
Speaker 3: this show, and like we're so happy for her.
Speaker 1: I just keep saying nothing has prepared her for the
Speaker 1: newborn period more than us bitches keeping her on her
Speaker 1: eyes and the stress. I'm like, you will find this
Speaker 1: so relaxing. Actually, so we wish her the best of life.
Speaker 4: We are going to miss her so much.
Speaker 1: Group executive producer Ruth Devine, our producer Sashritanic.
Speaker 2: Our senior audio producer is Leah Porges, our video producer
Speaker 2: is Josh Green, and our junior content producers are Coco
Speaker 2: and Testa.
Speaker 1: And if you're looking for something else to listen to,
Speaker 1: yesterday subscriber episode, we had a lot of fun. We
Speaker 1: talked about all the things that make someone cool or
Speaker 1: rock and roll was the term.
Speaker 4: There was this viral video about very specific things that
Speaker 4: make people cool.
Speaker 1: We shared our own list, most of them didn't apply
Speaker 1: to us at all. And also on Monday show we
Speaker 1: talked about sharing personal news at work, which has been
Speaker 1: coming up on this podcast. We will put a link
Speaker 1: to all of those episodes in our show notes.
Speaker 3: Enjoy your long weekend. If you're getting one out Louders by.
Speaker 1: Sea, shout out to any mum and me as subscribers listening.
Speaker 1: If you love the show and you want to support us,
Speaker 1: subscribing to mom Oh may I is the very best
Speaker 1: way to do so.
Speaker 4: There's a link in the episode description