1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: It's March sixth, twenty seventeen at Saint John's Uniting Church 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:08,200 Speaker 1: in Essendon, Melbourne, and Karen Rostevski's family are farewelling her 3 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 1: at her funeral. Hundreds of mourners dressed in black are 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: in attendance after the business owner and mother of one's 5 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:18,639 Speaker 1: body was found hidden in bushes fifty kilometers from home 6 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 1: in the Macedon Regional Park. She vanished nine months ago. 7 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:25,639 Speaker 1: Her husband Boris, said she left the house after an 8 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: argument over finances to go for a walk and clear 9 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: her head. As the months dragged on, he maintained the 10 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 1: image of a distraught husband as he dawknocked and attended searches. 11 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 1: He participated in tearful media appeals, holding up photos of 12 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: his missing wife and begging for news. And now here 13 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: he is pallbearer of her, coffin his face, solemn, his 14 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:55,639 Speaker 1: grief evident. But it's all an act. He killed her, 15 00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: he buried her. He lied repeatedly about it as he 16 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: played the role of worried husband for years. I'm Jemma 17 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: Bath and you're listening to True Crime Conversations, a podcast 18 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:18,840 Speaker 1: exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the 19 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: people who know the most about them. Karen Rostedsky vanished 20 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 1: from her home in Avondale Heights on June twenty ninth, 21 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. The search for her was intensive, and Boris 22 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 1: was right up the front leading the way. Then in 23 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 1: February twenty seventeen, Karen's skeletal remains were found by hikers. 24 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 1: Her husband, Boris was arrested for murder in December after 25 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 1: police pieced together CCTV footage, phone data, and inconsistent alibis. 26 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: On the eve of his trial, he pled guilty to manslaughter. 27 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: At the time of sentence in twenty nineteen, his crime 28 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: was described as a heat of the moment killing, making 29 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 1: it feel like a spontaneous act that appeared out of nowhere. 30 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:09,919 Speaker 1: Unable to prove intent, prosecutors settled for the manslaughter charge 31 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:13,640 Speaker 1: over murder because despite the post offense cover up, lies 32 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:17,679 Speaker 1: and lack of remorse, they were unable to point to premeditation. 33 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: In the eyes of seven News Investigations editor Alison Sandy, 34 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: Rostevski is a killer narcissist. She's been investigating lots of 35 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 1: them in her podcast Kiss and Kill. Perhaps the most 36 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 1: textbook example she re examines is the case of Jared 37 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:38,360 Speaker 1: baden Clay. He too reported his wife and mother of 38 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 1: his three daughters missing. It was twenty twelve and he 39 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 1: claimed she'd gone for a walk and failed to return. 40 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,959 Speaker 1: Her body was discovered just ten days later, and Jared 41 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 1: was arrested and charged with murder. Soon after, a jury 42 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:56,399 Speaker 1: convicted him of murder, but in twenty fifteen he successfully 43 00:02:56,440 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 1: appealed and had his sentence changed to manslaughter. That was 44 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: overturned by Australia's highest court and the murder conviction was reinstated. Today, 45 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 1: we look back at the cases of baden Clay, Rustevski, 46 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:11,799 Speaker 1: and other examples of intimate partner violence that shocked the 47 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 1: nation to explore the escalation patterns that cost women their lives. 48 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:23,679 Speaker 1: Allison joins us Now, Alison, thanks for joining us on 49 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:27,360 Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations. I wanted to start by giving listeners 50 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 1: a bit of an idea of your background, because you've 51 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: worked in and around intimate partner violence, domestic abuse, relationships, 52 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: that kind of world for quite a while now, haven't you. 53 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, Demma, I mean I think we kind of live 54 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 2: it a bit because when you I mean, as a journalist, 55 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 2: obviously you cover a lot of crime naturally, I've been 56 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 2: a journalist now for thirty years, and police and courts 57 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 2: is kind of the start anyway. And then I obviously 58 00:03:56,360 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 2: politics have always been quite into politics, so the overlap there, 59 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 2: and then of course FOI of information, which is a 60 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 2: national Nationally, I've been doing it so you look at 61 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 2: all the key issues that affect or impact our society, 62 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:16,799 Speaker 2: you know, health being a massive one. And then true 63 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 2: crime podcasts becoming a thing, which I love because it 64 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:27,600 Speaker 2: actually allows you to properly go into everything as a journalist. Obviously, 65 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,600 Speaker 2: this you know you're having you only so much space 66 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 2: or you know, having to break it up over several articles, 67 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:41,359 Speaker 2: and it can be prohibiting. So having a podcast that 68 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:45,039 Speaker 2: forum for a journalist is like a godsend, so you 69 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 2: can absolutely do all you need to do to properly 70 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 2: interrogate the issues. 71 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:55,159 Speaker 1: I think as a society, at least we're getting better 72 00:04:55,200 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 1: at telling the stories or expanding on the topics of 73 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 1: things like narcissism and gas lighting and coercive control, Whereas 74 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: a lot of these cases that you're revisiting back in 75 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: the day, we didn't kind of have that vernacular. 76 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 2: We certainly didn't even though I'd been in this space 77 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 2: for such a long time, but talking to the experts, 78 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 2: and these are the people who, you know, the academics 79 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 2: that sit down there and study the theory and look 80 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:25,240 Speaker 2: at cases. And I feel like I was offered the 81 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 2: red pill in the matrix and I took it. And 82 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 2: now I'm just like this all knowing, like you know, understanding, 83 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 2: and it's like we've been gas lit all our lives, 84 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:40,559 Speaker 2: like with these cases, that whole idea and Jmunk and Smith, 85 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 2: oh my gosh, she's amazing. She invented the homicide timeline 86 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:48,279 Speaker 2: and she talked about it, you know, crimes of passion, 87 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 2: you know, being this idea, like they'd rationalize it, like 88 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 2: you just snapped lost control, like it was not something 89 00:05:56,440 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 2: that was intentional. These people they didn't mean it. And 90 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:04,039 Speaker 2: now when you look at a homicide timeline, yes they 91 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 2: did mean it, and it was an eight factor journey 92 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:14,359 Speaker 2: for them that led to them planning and ending somebody's life. 93 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:17,600 Speaker 1: Can you tell us a bit about that homicidal timeline, 94 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:19,839 Speaker 1: because that is something that you focus quite heavily on 95 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:23,479 Speaker 1: in your investigation. What does that even mean for people 96 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:23,840 Speaker 1: that are. 97 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 2: Like what, yeah, oh well, so it's eight stages, starting 98 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 2: with you know, the isolation and the building, you know, 99 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 2: the love bombing, all that sort of thing. First, I 100 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 2: guess the first step for a perpetrator is to entrap 101 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:43,359 Speaker 2: the victim. And when you think about it, we, particularly 102 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 2: my generation, we grew up thinking prince charming, you know, 103 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:49,799 Speaker 2: you'd meet your soulmate one day. It was a very romantic, 104 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 2: fairy tale, idolized idea of what love was. And so 105 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 2: getting that swept off your feet, which is still a 106 00:06:59,839 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 2: real reality, right, we're not. I guess the hard thing 107 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 2: is making the distinction and understanding the difference between being 108 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 2: swept off your feet and love bombing. So Jane monton 109 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 2: Smith during in our series explains that way better than 110 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 2: I can. But it is very much if it's moving 111 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 2: too fast. If they say I love you early, I 112 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 2: mean again, you know, because we're all a bit idolistic 113 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 2: about love, and what's love to one person isn't necessarily 114 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 2: to another. So there's no harm in that happening. But 115 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 2: it's more than the control aspects. And she used one 116 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 2: example where the girl and guy were going out on 117 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 2: a date, was earlier in their relationship and she, you know, 118 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 2: he comes to pick her up and she gets in 119 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 2: the car and he goes, what are you wearing? And 120 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 2: I can't do it? She doesn't hurt, this great accent 121 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 2: and she's like, you know, what do you mean? And 122 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 2: he's like, you know, are you trying to embarrass me? 123 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 2: Trying to humiliate me? And tracked other men and you know, 124 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 2: sort of you look like a slot, you know, like, yeah, 125 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 2: this is again early on, you know, And she said, 126 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 2: this is a real story, and so she goes back 127 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 2: in and changes and then they go out and have 128 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 2: the best most romantic time. Everything was lovely. It was like, 129 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 2: you know, the fairy tale sort of thing. And then 130 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 2: she says, that is introducing one of the rules. Then, 131 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 2: so what do you think would happen if she wore 132 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 2: that dress again? You know, So all of a sudden, 133 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 2: the jealousy rule has come in and it's a control mechanism. 134 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 2: It turns back on the woman. And I know this, 135 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 2: and I don't want this to be seam like for 136 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 2: it's a man hating exercise. It's not that. But there's 137 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 2: a problem in Australia and globally, and statistics say this 138 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 2: that we have a woman being killed in an intimate 139 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 2: partner homicide once a week on average in Australia, once 140 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 2: a week like. 141 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: That's and it's been four years, years and years and years. Yeah, yeah, 142 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: it's not changing. 143 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's actually increasing because globally it's one in three 144 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 2: women globally will experience domestic, family or sexual violence. So 145 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 2: that's globally as well as the fact that in Australia 146 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 2: in the past two years, according to Domestic Family Violence 147 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 2: Sexual Violence Commission, it's increased by ten percent in the 148 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 2: past two years. Ten percent. That's a lot. Yeah, there's 149 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 2: a lot. So it's so important to understand why this 150 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 2: is happening and why the messages aren't getting through. And 151 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 2: I think you then have to look at the way 152 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 2: it's treated on the frontline. And of course we've reported 153 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 2: so much on abos and the revolving door of the 154 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 2: offenders who breached them just going in a mountain and 155 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:56,079 Speaker 2: the Tyrone Thompson, which we feature is a prime example 156 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:59,959 Speaker 2: of the victim. Mackenzie Andersen could not have done more 157 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 2: to prevent herself from getting killed. She did all the 158 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 2: right things. The ABO he kept reached eight times eight 159 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 2: times and then he got out again and two weeks 160 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:13,319 Speaker 2: later he killed her. He told people he was going 161 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 2: to kill her, She moved away, she did everything she could, 162 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 2: and then he come in and he killed her. And 163 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:24,560 Speaker 2: then they still didn't consider it premeditated or you know, 164 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:27,679 Speaker 2: it still was considered mid range violence even though he 165 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 2: rapped it seventy eight times. And so I wanted to 166 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 2: go in to explore that because it's legalistic, right, yeah, 167 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 2: And so when we when we deal with it, we're 168 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 2: seen as a bit simple and not understanding the legal 169 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:46,079 Speaker 2: you know, aspects and how the legal system works. So 170 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:49,200 Speaker 2: I did. I spoke to experts to try to understand, 171 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:51,320 Speaker 2: and I think, you know, so that people knew what 172 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,839 Speaker 2: was the issues and why they kept coming up. And 173 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 2: you know, we've got explanations there from Chief Justice spell 174 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:02,480 Speaker 2: about the ABI and the bail applications. And then there's 175 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:05,560 Speaker 2: that argument, of course that we don't have prisons enough 176 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:12,080 Speaker 2: prisons to put them away. And so then I just wonder, though, 177 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 2: why women have to lose their lives when all the 178 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:19,680 Speaker 2: signs are there that that's going to happen. And it's 179 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 2: just like, oh damn, you know, hon't that gets me upset? 180 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 1: You're listening to true crime conversations with me Jemma Bath. 181 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: I'm speaking with journalist Alison Sandy about some of Australia's 182 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:37,320 Speaker 1: worst cases of intimate partner violence that had warning signs 183 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 1: been noticed earlier, she believes could have been prevented. Up next, 184 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 1: we talk about the similarities in the cases of Karen 185 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:50,839 Speaker 1: Rostovski and Alison Baden Clay. I want to use the 186 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 1: story of Karen Rostevski to further explore what we're talking about, 187 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: because her story is quite a unique one in the 188 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: content of what we're talking about. Firstly, for those that 189 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 1: don't know what happened to Karen, can you tell us 190 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 1: a little bit about how her case first made headlines, 191 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 1: what her story was. 192 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:18,680 Speaker 2: Well, with Karen, it was a prolonged process because I 193 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 2: guess I like to compare it to the way that 194 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:25,440 Speaker 2: the Jared Baiden Clay Alison Baiden Clay case sort of 195 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 2: because it's very similar in a lot of ways. 196 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 1: There are a lot of similarities. 197 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, with the husband, the grieving husband. 198 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:36,959 Speaker 1: Reporting their wives missing. Like when you look at them 199 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 1: side by side, Karen's husband reports her missing, Jared reports 200 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 1: Alison missing. They come out to the public, grieving husband 201 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 1: very vocal. 202 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, So the difference is is with Boris and Karen sadly, 203 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 2: it took a lot longer to find her body than 204 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:04,560 Speaker 2: it did Alison Bada Clay, but equally so in Boris 205 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 2: and Jared Baiden Clay's cases, police knew straight away that 206 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 2: you know, there was an issue. And I speak to 207 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 2: a family member who was there at the time when 208 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 2: Karen first went missing, and the way that it happened, 209 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 2: there is a lot more resistance in the situation with 210 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 2: Boris and there is with the Bait and Clay. I mean, 211 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 2: everyone accepts. I feel like everyone accepts that Jared did it, 212 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 2: whereas in Boris's case, certainly his family. I've already received 213 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 2: a very hostile call from when I politely reached out 214 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 2: by email. You know, I know where obviously Boris and 215 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 2: Karen's daughter is, but I reached out just said that 216 00:13:57,320 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 2: I was working on this and if she'd like to 217 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:03,320 Speaker 2: have chat to me anyway, and that and she doesn't. 218 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 2: But can you imagine if I didn't let her know, 219 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 2: you know, and didn't offer her the opportunity. So got 220 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 2: a very hostile phone call asking me, do I have 221 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 2: a child? How could you do this? You know? And 222 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 2: I basically said, well, he did, he did do this, 223 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 2: you know, this is the thing. He pleaded guilty to manslaughter. 224 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 2: And I suspect that they think that that what Boris 225 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 2: is saying is that he pleaded guilty to manslaughter because 226 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 2: they were going to paint it on him anyway. So 227 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 2: but he didn't do it. And that's kind of the case. 228 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 2: So it is a it is a really it's a 229 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 2: much more sensitive, tricky story to report. Now. The other 230 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 2: thing is Allison's family took care of the girls when 231 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 2: Jared Baiden Clay went to prison, so they've grown up 232 00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 2: with Allison's family, Whereas the situation with Sarah is not 233 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 2: like that. She's very much been remained close. She was 234 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 2: a lot older, she's very close to a dad. In fact, 235 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 2: by all accounts, she was closer to a dad than 236 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 2: she was to her mum. And I cannot imagine the 237 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 2: pain and the suffering. I mean, she basically will virtually 238 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 2: lost both parents. So it's horrific what she's been through. 239 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 2: So it is you've just really got to tread carefully 240 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 2: with a case like this one. And so as subsequently 241 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 2: speaking to family, her family members, they are treading very 242 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 2: carefully as well. So I have spoken to one on 243 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 2: the record, many others off the record. 244 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 1: I think the biggest difference between these two cases that 245 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 1: I can see is that we know a lot about 246 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 1: Jared Baiden Clay and Allison's relationship and the gas lighting 247 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: and the emotional abuse, and that all of those elements 248 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 1: that we talk about from that timeline, they were there 249 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: with Jared, but we don't have, well, we haven't seen 250 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 1: the evidence of that, if there was any. With the 251 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: Ristevski's all we've got is his kind of post offense behavior, 252 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: which was very bizarre. He you know, he's been convicted 253 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: of manslorter and after she went missing, he was the 254 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 1: grieving husband. He was at her funeral, acting, you know, 255 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 1: the devastated widower. So the courts kind of reflect that, like, 256 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 1: you know, you're not showing remorse, you lied. Why did 257 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 1: you focus on that case given that you are looking 258 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: at the psychology and the behind the scenes kind of stuff, 259 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: when with Ristevski, we really don't have that apart from 260 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 1: the post offense stuff. 261 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, but when you talk to family members and you 262 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 2: look at the reports that we have gotten behind the 263 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 2: scenes with the police. So when you see all of 264 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 2: that and you can then put it to the experts 265 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 2: to analyze. Yes, he does fit that criteria. I mean 266 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 2: he's because one of the things that I asked doctor 267 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 2: Russ Scott, for example, when he was the author of 268 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:21,400 Speaker 2: the Narcissistic Rage and the killing of Alice and Baden Clay, 269 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:24,119 Speaker 2: I asked him, how can you assess him if you 270 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 2: haven't met him? And he says, you have to base 271 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 2: it on their behaviors, because the thing with people with 272 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:33,639 Speaker 2: narcissistic personality disorder is they don't they won't present as 273 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:37,120 Speaker 2: they're true and honest selves anyway. You can only ever 274 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 2: make analysis on their behaviors and what they did at 275 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 2: the time. So having all this extra insight that will 276 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:49,120 Speaker 2: all revealed from the family members as well as the police, 277 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:53,679 Speaker 2: will give that insight as well and allow for the 278 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:57,199 Speaker 2: people that we have working with us, the experts, to 279 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 2: provide their diagnosis. 280 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 1: Can you give us a little bit of an idea 281 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: of this behind the scenes stuff with Rostovski in terms 282 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 1: of because that would be I couldn't find evidence of 283 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 1: what the relationship was like in terms of the coercive 284 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 1: control and stuff like that. Can you give us some 285 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:17,879 Speaker 1: insight into what you've learned. 286 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 2: Like one family member who was there at the time 287 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 2: has given a lot of insight into how he was 288 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 2: and he's paranoia with the police, like he you know, 289 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:35,200 Speaker 2: he basically ended up ostracizing anyone that he couldn't trust 290 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 2: because he thought, you know, I mean the bugging and 291 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 2: that they were reporting to the police. So yeah, when 292 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:47,520 Speaker 2: you speak to those family members, they do provide a 293 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 2: lot more insight. 294 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 1: Given the context. 295 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 2: You've got. 296 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: The descriptions we heard at the time with the Rostovski 297 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:57,879 Speaker 1: murder was that it was a heat of the moment killing. 298 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: What is your opinion on that as a as a description. 299 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 2: Well, I think that's the one that's been rebuked by 300 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 2: the homicide Timeline creator Jane Mounkton Smith also forensic criminologists 301 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 2: Claire Ferguson and Laura Richards, who does her own show 302 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:22,920 Speaker 2: and which goes through that saying, you know, quoting Monk 303 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:26,239 Speaker 2: and Smith here that we will not always kind of 304 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 2: known that the crime of passion narrative is that load 305 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 2: of rubbish, and it is. It really is, because when 306 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 2: you go through and I don't know if you've had 307 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:39,680 Speaker 2: a look at the first episode yet, but towards the 308 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 2: and Claire Ferguson talks about that last moment in the 309 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 2: homicide timeline, where the walls are closing in, you know, 310 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:53,639 Speaker 2: the trigger being that this is the only outcome that 311 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:56,439 Speaker 2: they can proceed with. They you know, so again, I 312 00:19:56,440 --> 00:20:00,240 Speaker 2: won't try to explain it because I can't do it 313 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:04,159 Speaker 2: as well as they do. But it is very much 314 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:07,479 Speaker 2: looking when you look at the situation of you know, 315 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 2: the financial stress and things like that, they are very 316 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 2: much a common theme. And I don't know about you, 317 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 2: but I think ninety percent of the cases of intimate 318 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 2: partner homicides I've covered over the years have been when 319 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 2: the woman is trying to leave. 320 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the most dangerous time. 321 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. And I still can't believe in some cases, the 322 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:32,159 Speaker 2: hidden homicides, that it's still not treated as such. So 323 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:36,880 Speaker 2: I still feel like, even though it's really obvious the 324 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 2: theories there, this is you know, even as a lay 325 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:44,920 Speaker 2: person who's not analyzing all this sort of stuff, why 326 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 2: in these situations is it still deemed as being spontaneous? 327 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 2: You know that the you know that this is this 328 00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 2: leaving part is just an act of where you snap 329 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 2: for you know, you lose control. I don't I mean, 330 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 2: you think of losing control, I mean, has it. 331 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:12,399 Speaker 1: You don't kill someone? 332 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's right. Do you think that how is 333 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 2: it acceptable that losing control and killing someone going together 334 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 2: is acceptable? 335 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 1: It's funny you say that those terms have kind of 336 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:28,160 Speaker 1: been debunked by experts in this area, because I still 337 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:30,200 Speaker 1: see them on headlines recently. 338 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's the problem. It's not being debunked in 339 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 2: the legal process and even in the investigative process in 340 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 2: a lot of cases. So you would have individual cases 341 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 2: where where you see, oh gosh, I have to mention it, 342 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:51,919 Speaker 2: Amy Wensley, There is no obvious, more obvious case I 343 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,120 Speaker 2: have done where I mean, for example, in the US, 344 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:57,879 Speaker 2: they've brought in Joanna's Law right where they have I 345 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 2: think it's ten things, and they list all these things 346 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:06,199 Speaker 2: that mean it's not accidental or a suicide, which a 347 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,880 Speaker 2: lot of them are staged to look like, and hers 348 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 2: ticks every single box. They only need one of those 349 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:17,399 Speaker 2: for Johanna's Law to be, you know, invoked, like they like. 350 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,639 Speaker 2: With Johanna's Law, if one of these boxes are ticked, 351 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 2: they have to treat it as a homicide. But so 352 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,440 Speaker 2: it seems strange that they would need to make it legislation, 353 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 2: but they do, they do need to make it legislation. 354 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 2: And because it just doesn't happen, there are different people, 355 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 2: or you would have seen the Gabby Potito footage, no doubt. 356 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, what's going on. I'm going to say, 357 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 2: I just hate this writing some person in the world 358 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:52,119 Speaker 2: day here, camping yesterday, and camping goes itself. I'm sorry, 359 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 2: I'm sorry. 360 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 1: I hit a bump there. I was distracting him from driving. 361 00:22:57,560 --> 00:22:58,359 Speaker 2: I'm sorry. 362 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 1: Can I get you to step out of the view perform? 363 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, just tain tight right there. 364 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:04,120 Speaker 1: It's very compelling. 365 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 2: Yes, I mean, so on she is seen as the 366 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 2: perpetrator in that situation like that to me just blew 367 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 2: me away as I'm watching that and still it's been misdiagnosed. 368 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:22,640 Speaker 1: You have described Jared as being possibly the most obvious 369 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:26,680 Speaker 1: expert abuser when we look at him in hindsight. Why 370 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 1: do you say. 371 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 2: That, because, like you mentioned earlier, everything in court like 372 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 2: there was, it was like all there, and when you 373 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 2: listen to the whole and read the whole documents, we 374 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 2: got a lot of the court audio, so we got 375 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,879 Speaker 2: to hear the impact as well. It is it's like 376 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:51,920 Speaker 2: the eight stages the homicide timeline playing out in real life. 377 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 2: You feel like it's a Shakespearean tragedy. As you it's 378 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 2: just horrific, you know, if you go fast forward to 379 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:05,639 Speaker 2: stage four and how he's managed to undermine her confidence 380 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 2: so much littildreed away so that she, like Aby Potito, 381 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 2: would blame herself. So even his infidelity, right, she blamed 382 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:20,399 Speaker 2: herself for them. She at the stage, you know, because 383 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 2: of this depression that she had from adverse effect from 384 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:28,359 Speaker 2: anti malarial medication on there when they were first went overseas, 385 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 2: and that was kind of kept coming back as well. 386 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 2: And that's to say that she didn't have some mental 387 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:39,120 Speaker 2: health anxiety. You would if you were married to him, 388 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 2: you know, like it's just it's but it's not clinical depression. 389 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 2: She wouldn't have been able to get up and go 390 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 2: for a walk if she was clinically depressed. So so, 391 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 2: as I said, and then the financial stress and then 392 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,879 Speaker 2: the I mean he also looked up you know, the 393 00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:00,199 Speaker 2: life insurance, you know policy. I think the thing with 394 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 2: someone like Jared Babe and Clay and Boris Rostevski is, 395 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 2: while you think they're not a good husband, the thought 396 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 2: of them being a killer. Seems like an extra step, right, 397 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 2: It seems like it's a little bit more of a 398 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 2: gap that you can't it doesn't make sense. But when 399 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,879 Speaker 2: you actually look at it and their personalities and the 400 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 2: abuse that they had to put up with, I think 401 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 2: in current situation was a little bit different because there's 402 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 2: the ones that actually rely on the woman, not the 403 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,159 Speaker 2: not want to be the breadwinner, to control the finances 404 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,880 Speaker 2: and things like that. So there was a little bit 405 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:42,200 Speaker 2: of a different dynamic there. But as I said, we 406 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 2: do cover that with Anthony Ericsson first before we get 407 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,440 Speaker 2: to Rastevski. So again that sheds a bit of light. 408 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,880 Speaker 2: It's not a cookie cutter approach and they're all kind 409 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:56,239 Speaker 2: of different. And the thing about expert abusers is they 410 00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:01,879 Speaker 2: cater to the situation like any anyone that knows what 411 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:05,680 Speaker 2: they're doing and is practiced at it. They just look 412 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 2: at Okay, so this is this situation, so I have 413 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,399 Speaker 2: to do this, you know. So whatever the tactic is, 414 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 2: whatever the thing is that keeps them in check, that 415 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 2: allows them them to control, that's what they use. Others 416 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:23,639 Speaker 2: will use children, you know, because they know that the 417 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:28,679 Speaker 2: mum will often you know, that's her real I guess 418 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:32,160 Speaker 2: way to get to her because the child is used 419 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 2: as an emotional tool. 420 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:36,199 Speaker 1: Do you think with a lot of the cases that 421 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 1: you've analyzed it is that kind of like perfect family 422 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,440 Speaker 1: from the outside and then when you kind of peel 423 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 1: back the covers. Is that how these men get away 424 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 1: with it for so long? 425 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 2: I think so. But also it's a normality of the 426 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 2: situation too. I mean, you've got to remember in Australia, 427 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 2: they only I mean in the sixties, I believe it 428 00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 2: was only then that women could start to own a house, 429 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,359 Speaker 2: could actually be on the deeds of a house. And 430 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 2: then the seventies they brought in no fault divorce, and 431 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 2: then eighties and nineties were kind of said, everything's good now, 432 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 2: you don't need to worry. You're all equal, wear equal. 433 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 2: So it does kind of create a culture where women 434 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 2: have lower status, you know, And which is the whole 435 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,199 Speaker 2: argument that Jane Monkton Smith says is that women have 436 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 2: such low status even when they lose their lives and 437 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 2: it's just horrific. So you'll notice all so, Jemma, because 438 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 2: the other thing is that not all lives are equal. 439 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:40,480 Speaker 2: So in the cases of Alison and Karen they're middle 440 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 2: class women, they're more relatable, so they get more publicity. 441 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 2: And look, they all like they should. It was a 442 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 2: horrible they were killed by a man, so absolutely they should, 443 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 2: but not all women get that. 444 00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 1: After the break, I speak with Alison about Tyrone Tom 445 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,399 Speaker 1: jailed in twenty twenty two for the murder of his 446 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:07,119 Speaker 1: partner and the patterns of coercive control and violence that 447 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 1: defined the case. So you're really looking into like patterns 448 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 1: of behavior. You're kind of trying to work out why 449 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:22,359 Speaker 1: these men who do murder, what's going on in their brains? Like, 450 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 1: how is it unfolding? How are their relationships falling apart? 451 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 1: In this way? You have given them the label narcissistic killers. 452 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 1: Can you tell me about that? Or killer narcissus. 453 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's killer narcissist or expert abuses and or 454 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 2: expert abuses. Look certainly with you know, narcissism or narcissistic 455 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 2: personality disorder. It did come up in courts for Tyrone 456 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 2: Thompson as well as there was an independent study done 457 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 2: on Jared Baiden Clay called Narcissistic Rage and the Killing 458 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 2: of Alison Baiden Clay. So there are precedents and there 459 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 2: are factors that we go INTI and we talk to 460 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 2: the experts to explain that. And I guess it's to me, 461 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 2: and this is not being a forensic psychiatrist or psychologist 462 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 2: like I've spoken to, or even a criminologist, But to me, 463 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 2: it is obviously the lack of empathy and the lack 464 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 2: of remorse and the objectification of the people involved, and 465 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 2: it just being this whole idea of not having control, 466 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 2: this loss of control that is the trigger. It's not 467 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 2: like they talk about people being violent, and in Thompson's case, 468 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 2: it's like he's this crazed violent you know, like he's 469 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 2: a ticking time bomb, but he's exploding all the time, 470 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 2: just not necessarily to that length of killing someone until 471 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 2: he does. But in a lot of these cases there 472 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:03,959 Speaker 2: isn't any violence. According to the Domestic Violenced Death Review 473 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 2: Team in New South Wales it was a quarter I 474 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 2: think in their twenty twenty three twenty to twenty three 475 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 2: report a quarter did not have a record of violence. 476 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 2: That's not to say there wasn't any, but a quarter. So, 477 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 2: and when you speak to the experts and they talk 478 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 2: about what coercive control is, and then how many end 479 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 2: up going to jail. It's they basically have to plead 480 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,959 Speaker 2: guilty for that to happen. It's really really hard because 481 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 2: violence is such a key indicator in their mind to 482 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 2: get a conviction on that basis, so you can go 483 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 2: through the courts and really with that one in New 484 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 2: South Wales was successfully prosecuted, it was because they pleaded guilty. 485 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 2: So what I guess the good news is is that 486 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 2: people understand now that it's outlawed, but the system doesn't 487 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:05,760 Speaker 2: actually provide enough understanding so that it can be used properly. 488 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, the systems more set up for those very violent 489 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:12,719 Speaker 1: people who are continuously physically doing things. 490 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you could see potentially people like Tyra and 491 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:21,560 Speaker 2: Thompson might be handled better now, But even then in 492 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 2: this case, Yeah, it just it is. It's a tough 493 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 2: gig I think to get these over the line, and 494 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 2: I think when I speak to other people and people 495 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 2: that are going through it, they seem to feel like 496 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 2: this series, this issue of women getting killed is not 497 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 2: being taken seriously enough, and they compare it to something 498 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 2: like the one punch Can Kill campaign I did up 499 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 2: and here in Brisbane with alcohol fueled violence and cab 500 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 2: lines and things like that, and it's horrific. And I'm 501 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,720 Speaker 2: so glad, particularly as a mum of a you know, 502 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:59,200 Speaker 2: soon to be teenage boy, that this issue has been 503 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 2: dealt with proper But I also think that equally there 504 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 2: is a big, I guess elephant in the room that 505 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:12,120 Speaker 2: women getting killed in domestic violence, family and violent situations 506 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 2: isn't being treated properly. And there's a big discrepancy there. 507 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 2: Do you know, they don't even calculate the number of 508 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 2: femicides nationally at all, like federally, Like there's no government 509 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 2: body or anyone like that. They don't even count it. 510 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 1: For those listeners who don't know that story, who is 511 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 1: Tyrone Thompson and what did he do? Who was his victim? 512 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 2: Okay, So Tyrone Thompson and Mackenzie Anderson, they went out 513 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 2: when they were in Sydney. It was during COVID lockdown generally. 514 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:46,160 Speaker 2: So the mother, Kabitha Akret, who is an absolute power 515 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,320 Speaker 2: house in this area, like she is a force of nature. 516 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 2: She has really come through with this. But she had 517 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 2: restricted contact because of COVID with Mackenzie. But Mackenzie got 518 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 2: involved with Tyrone and like she was very young. She 519 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:05,959 Speaker 2: was twenty one when she died. But she was in 520 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 2: this bad relationship. She had a child, a twenty three 521 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 2: month old who witnessed her being murdered in her home 522 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 2: after she'd run away from him. After eight breaches and ABO, 523 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 2: she fled to Newcastle to be closer to her mum. 524 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 2: He found her one of his many releases after breaching 525 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 2: his ABO and basically she armed herself with a knife 526 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 2: when he came in and he was threatening and she 527 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 2: knew what he and she had a child there, which 528 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,440 Speaker 2: you know, her twenty three month old, and he then 529 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:45,480 Speaker 2: went and ended up stabbing her seventy eight plus times 530 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:50,560 Speaker 2: and it was so bad that he used two knives 531 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 2: because one snapped and the little boy twenty three months 532 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:58,400 Speaker 2: old was there the whole time. When the police arrived, 533 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,720 Speaker 2: they couldn't see him but for the blood and Mackenzie 534 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 2: was you know, it was obviously there was no it 535 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:12,480 Speaker 2: was just this. She'd done everything, absolutely everything to escape 536 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 2: that situation. So Tabitha Akret, who was in Cans at 537 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 2: the time, she got the phone call. She's got a 538 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,400 Speaker 2: son of her own who was twelve, I believe at 539 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:27,239 Speaker 2: the time, and she had to get back. Didn't want 540 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 2: to tell us son straight away because she didn't want 541 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:30,760 Speaker 2: him to be on the flight and have to worry 542 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:33,160 Speaker 2: about it. She had to pull us off together, get back, 543 00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 2: go get her grandson. And he was basically they tried 544 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 2: to they put him in the bath and tried to 545 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,919 Speaker 2: clean him up, and he just crawl basically crawled over 546 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 2: to her and attached himself to her like a koala. 547 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:53,719 Speaker 2: So she had to then become a mum to him 548 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 2: and couldn't grieve properly because she had to be strong 549 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:01,759 Speaker 2: for him. And he didn't sleep for weeks properly, and 550 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 2: he would just whimper. And so she's now having to 551 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 2: go through that whole process of rehabilitating him again. She 552 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:13,560 Speaker 2: tells it much better than I do. Tyrone Thompson his 553 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,920 Speaker 2: court case. He's been in and out of courts most 554 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 2: of his young life, like he you know, and gosh, 555 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:25,319 Speaker 2: let's face it, we all kind of chose badly when 556 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 2: we were young. I'm not. And she did try to 557 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,719 Speaker 2: break it off several times, like it was so you 558 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,000 Speaker 2: know the fact that you know, people will say, oh, 559 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,480 Speaker 2: why did you go out with someone like that? You know, 560 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,080 Speaker 2: I mean, these people can be so charismatic they can be, 561 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,800 Speaker 2: so you know he was. I guess if you didn't 562 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:47,600 Speaker 2: know any better, you might think him good looking anyway. 563 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:52,879 Speaker 2: And he really tried to forge a relationship with her son. 564 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:55,920 Speaker 2: Tabitha Akret said how that kind of worried her for 565 00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,120 Speaker 2: a bit, but she realized that that was a way 566 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:06,560 Speaker 2: of controlling Mackenzie by using her child. So he Yeah, 567 00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 2: he's obviously obviously violent sort of person he was. That 568 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,840 Speaker 2: was his tactic is violence. Other ones like Rostovski and 569 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:19,759 Speaker 2: bad and Clay use other methods, more subtle methods, but 570 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 2: violence was definitely his number one thing. They talked about 571 00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:29,560 Speaker 2: him having aspects of narcissistic personality disorder, but also antisocial personality, 572 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:31,440 Speaker 2: you know, like it, there was, there was many There 573 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:36,560 Speaker 2: are many issues with Tyrone Thompson. But he will be 574 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:41,799 Speaker 2: out by the before he's forty under the under the 575 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:48,319 Speaker 2: current sentencing, so it the again Tabitha goes into the 576 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,520 Speaker 2: issues like he he would not. He's not a model prisoner. 577 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,480 Speaker 2: In fact, he's the opposite. They put him in isolationships 578 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:58,200 Speaker 2: cells and I think he's destroyed. Cameras and nurses won't 579 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:00,400 Speaker 2: go near him and all this sort of stuff and 580 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:03,040 Speaker 2: so they don't want him in there because he's too 581 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:09,200 Speaker 2: much tru and bad behavior. Yeah, I know, right, So 582 00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:15,000 Speaker 2: it's just like this whole situation where there's always excuses 583 00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:19,480 Speaker 2: for the perpetrator and because he's young, there's seem to 584 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:25,120 Speaker 2: be a chance of rehabilitation. But the problem is, as 585 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,839 Speaker 2: the experts say, personality disorders don't afford, they don't have 586 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:35,880 Speaker 2: that good rehabilitation prospect, you know, associated with them because 587 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:38,640 Speaker 2: they are who they are, and a lot of people don't, 588 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 2: particularly nus, just don't recognize that in themselves. So yeah, 589 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:48,120 Speaker 2: so that's Tyrane Thompson. But yeah, so that was in Newcastle, Yes, 590 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:50,680 Speaker 2: so it wasn't that long ago. And then of course 591 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,840 Speaker 2: they had he was sentenced and then Tabitha Akred appealed. 592 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:56,759 Speaker 2: There has also been a new law introduced now in 593 00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:01,080 Speaker 2: New South Wales subsequently, thanks to the advocacy of Tabitha Acrid, 594 00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:06,320 Speaker 2: who was very strong in I mean, she's got a 595 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:09,200 Speaker 2: she's actually really well versed in this, like she's she 596 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:12,760 Speaker 2: knows what she's talking about. And so it's now twenty 597 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:16,200 Speaker 2: five years non parole. But that doesn't apply to Tyrone 598 00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:20,840 Speaker 2: Thompson because you can't make it retrospective, so and she 599 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:23,239 Speaker 2: failed in her appeal, and we do we go in 600 00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:28,080 Speaker 2: a bit to that to the Justice Weinstein sentence and 601 00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:35,120 Speaker 2: his explanation of why it was considered by many would 602 00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:38,799 Speaker 2: would think that it was too light, and then of 603 00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:43,759 Speaker 2: course the appeal and then the Justice Bell explains that 604 00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:46,239 Speaker 2: as well. So yeah, I mean it's certainly a really 605 00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:48,480 Speaker 2: good one to show the flaws and the legal system, 606 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:49,200 Speaker 2: that's for sure. 607 00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:56,560 Speaker 1: Obviously you're focusing on behavior and psychology, but we've you know, 608 00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:02,840 Speaker 1: we've talked about the restrictions of the court systems, so like, 609 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:05,960 Speaker 1: how do we change this? How do you think we 610 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:08,799 Speaker 1: change this, because it's obviously the court systems that need 611 00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:13,160 Speaker 1: to change as well as the cultural behavioral stuff. 612 00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:18,560 Speaker 2: Absolutely it does. So awareness is one thing, political will 613 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:24,480 Speaker 2: is another. For example, Queensland seems much more conducive to 614 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:28,640 Speaker 2: the idea of bringing new legislation reforming it. They've got 615 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:33,160 Speaker 2: a two women who are Deb Freckington who's the Attorney 616 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:37,040 Speaker 2: General and Amandacam who we speak to is their domestic 617 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:40,360 Speaker 2: violence prevention minister. So the fact that they have people 618 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:42,880 Speaker 2: in those roles and we've brought in coesc of control 619 00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,839 Speaker 2: stand with New South Wales, same with South Australia, so 620 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:48,399 Speaker 2: there seems to be more of a political will in 621 00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:51,280 Speaker 2: that area, which is great, so it's easier to focus 622 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:55,239 Speaker 2: on the ones that seem happy to do it. But 623 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:59,560 Speaker 2: then when you've got the in Victoria, they've got arguably 624 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:02,239 Speaker 2: the best coronial system in the world, or one of them, 625 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:07,239 Speaker 2: so they have a really good lot of people to 626 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,319 Speaker 2: speak to in that area as well. So anyway it is, 627 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:14,000 Speaker 2: it is a case of I think from my perspective, 628 00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:16,799 Speaker 2: is getting it out there and looking at all the 629 00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:20,080 Speaker 2: problems and having people reflect on it and hopefully getting 630 00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:23,759 Speaker 2: some change, some meaningful change in it. May be just incremental, 631 00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:26,480 Speaker 2: it may be just you know. I mean, I know 632 00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:30,480 Speaker 2: in Queensland they're considering Claire's Law, which has been in 633 00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:33,480 Speaker 2: place in the UK I think for fifteen years, so 634 00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:35,840 Speaker 2: you know, I spoke to jam Munpkins with about that, 635 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:40,560 Speaker 2: about that, how that could work here. That's the thing 636 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,479 Speaker 2: I guess I'm hoping to do because it's we're only 637 00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:46,560 Speaker 2: one call in a very big machine. But media and 638 00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:50,560 Speaker 2: getting the spotlight on it and shining it really brightly 639 00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:57,120 Speaker 2: is key to getting change. So I'm talking to as 640 00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:00,520 Speaker 2: many people as I can and there is actually, you know, 641 00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:04,680 Speaker 2: quite a lot of frustration from academics and legal professionals 642 00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:09,239 Speaker 2: in this area to try to get changed, so I think. 643 00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:12,480 Speaker 2: And then, of course, you know, as I'm told, the 644 00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,880 Speaker 2: ministers then have to convince their cabinet colleagues. So again 645 00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:17,359 Speaker 2: the media spotlight helps with that. 646 00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:22,320 Speaker 1: Has anything someone who has done this for thirty years, 647 00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:27,120 Speaker 1: has anything surprised you in unpacking all of this stuff. 648 00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:31,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely it has. It is very much. It's 649 00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:36,000 Speaker 2: like what they say that you know that this is wrong. 650 00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:39,439 Speaker 2: But I think I think what surprises me is that 651 00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:44,000 Speaker 2: it has been as I said, feel like that I've 652 00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:48,600 Speaker 2: been part of the majority of the world who's been 653 00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:52,600 Speaker 2: gas lit in this area in thinking that, yeah, in 654 00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:56,680 Speaker 2: thinking that this was that I believed, I guess the 655 00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:59,359 Speaker 2: crime of passion narrative as much as anyone else did, 656 00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:03,760 Speaker 2: I suppose, And so yeah, it's all been quite shocking. 657 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:07,880 Speaker 2: But I guess the biggest shocks, and you'd feel it 658 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:11,560 Speaker 2: to are the individual cases I think mid range violence 659 00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:18,320 Speaker 2: describing Tyraing Thompson's murder of Mackenzie Anderson that was sung. Yeah, 660 00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:21,600 Speaker 2: you know, but again I'm mad. I kind of feel 661 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:24,520 Speaker 2: a little bit silly saying that when you're kind of 662 00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:28,600 Speaker 2: explained the legal parameters and all the different things, and 663 00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:33,359 Speaker 2: it's not the explainer's fault, it's just that's the way 664 00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:36,080 Speaker 2: it is, and that's why you need to change it. 665 00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:44,920 Speaker 1: Thank you to Alison for helping us to tell these stories. 666 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,360 Speaker 1: If you or someone you know is experiencing family violence, 667 00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:52,399 Speaker 1: support is available. Call one eight hundred respect for twenty 668 00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:56,719 Speaker 1: four hour confidential support. You can find more about the 669 00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:00,200 Speaker 1: Kiss and Kill podcast via the link in our show notes, 670 00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:01,919 Speaker 1: and if you'd like to hear more about the case 671 00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:05,600 Speaker 1: of Alison baden Clay, we recorded a separate episode with 672 00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:09,560 Speaker 1: Mark Ainsworth, who led the investigation. You'll find that link 673 00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:12,600 Speaker 1: in the show notes as well. True Crime Conversations is 674 00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:16,600 Speaker 1: hosted by me Jemma Bath. Our senior producer is Charlie Blackman, 675 00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:20,359 Speaker 1: the group executive producer is Alaria Brophy, and there's been 676 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:23,760 Speaker 1: audio design by Jacob Brown. Thanks so much for listening. 677 00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:26,920 Speaker 1: I'll be back next week with another True Crime Conversation. 678 00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:39,319 Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and 679 00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:41,440 Speaker 1: waters that this podcast was recorded on