WEBVTT - 'Can I Just Bitch For A Sec?' 0:00:10.327 --> 0:00:13.047 You're listening to a MoMA mea podcast. 0:00:13.727 --> 0:00:16.767 Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters 0:00:16.807 --> 0:00:19.567 that this podcast is recorded on. Are we Ready? 0:00:20.527 --> 0:00:20.887 We are? 0:00:21.287 --> 0:00:29.687 Jesse Stevens, Yes, three two one, Hello, and welcome to 0:00:29.767 --> 0:00:31.447 Mom and Me Are out Loud. It's all women are 0:00:31.447 --> 0:00:34.007 actually talking about. On Wednesday, the tenth of July. 0:00:34.207 --> 0:00:35.327 I'm Holly Wayne. 0:00:35.087 --> 0:00:39.207 Right, I'm Me Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens and out louders. 0:00:39.327 --> 0:00:41.687 If you're listening to this episode, I poll you're listening 0:00:41.687 --> 0:00:44.647 on Spotify. It has come to our attention that a 0:00:44.687 --> 0:00:46.567 great many of you do not follow us, and that 0:00:46.647 --> 0:00:48.807 means that the episode does not automatically go. 0:00:48.767 --> 0:00:50.607 Into your feature. Who would be one of those people? 0:00:50.687 --> 0:00:53.287 Jesse Stevens, Holly and I are that personality type, so 0:00:53.327 --> 0:00:54.487 probably as Sagittarius. 0:00:54.487 --> 0:00:57.127 Okay, this was a very strange conversation for me to 0:00:57.167 --> 0:00:59.007 have because I don't understand how you listen to a 0:00:59.047 --> 0:01:01.207 podcast if you're not following it. I go and search 0:01:01.247 --> 0:01:04.287 it every time you want to listen to a podcast. Look. 0:01:04.327 --> 0:01:07.087 Also, my Spotify has on the front page it'll say 0:01:07.127 --> 0:01:09.967 your show's new episodes. I don't need to do that, 0:01:10.447 --> 0:01:13.367 but however that you do talking gates myself. 0:01:13.487 --> 0:01:14.527 Yes, so what you. 0:01:14.447 --> 0:01:15.807 Need to do is you've said and then in the 0:01:15.807 --> 0:01:17.807 top right hand corner on Apple I know it says 0:01:17.847 --> 0:01:20.287 follow and you can click the follow button. And on 0:01:20.327 --> 0:01:23.527 Spotify it's exactly the same. It's the word that says follow. 0:01:23.567 --> 0:01:26.767 It has six letters wow, and it starts with air. 0:01:26.767 --> 0:01:29.767 This is great and then tap it. Where do I 0:01:29.847 --> 0:01:34.687 put my ear buds my air pods? Which holes do 0:01:34.727 --> 0:01:34.967 they go? 0:01:35.047 --> 0:01:43.007 In podcasting? Okay, okay, so we've started with the ear 0:01:43.047 --> 0:01:46.047 buds in the vagina On Wednesday show, I Am going 0:01:46.087 --> 0:01:47.447 to get this train. 0:01:47.727 --> 0:01:49.327 Back on the tracks baby. 0:01:50.007 --> 0:01:53.807 On today's show, why absolutely everybody is talking about a 0:01:53.807 --> 0:01:57.807 major Australian fashion brands body count. Also does an adult 0:01:57.927 --> 0:02:00.487 child get us say? And who their mom dates? Welcome 0:02:00.527 --> 0:02:04.447 to the new age of endless parenting. And people are 0:02:04.447 --> 0:02:08.287 posting strangers gossip sessions on TikTok and someone really needs 0:02:08.327 --> 0:02:11.567 to tell Sarah that her friends hate her. But first 0:02:11.687 --> 0:02:12.727 mea Friedman in. 0:02:12.687 --> 0:02:15.047 Case you missed it, meant are raw dogging on flights? 0:02:15.607 --> 0:02:16.847 That sounds I think it's not. 0:02:16.807 --> 0:02:17.207 What you think. 0:02:17.607 --> 0:02:20.367 Dogging flights. I don't think we're doing on flights is 0:02:20.447 --> 0:02:21.007 quite accurate. 0:02:21.087 --> 0:02:22.247 What do you think real dogging means? 0:02:22.327 --> 0:02:24.727 This is I've heard young people use it, and I've 0:02:24.767 --> 0:02:27.287 wanted to say, I don't think you fully understand what 0:02:27.527 --> 0:02:30.207 does so? Because doesn't it mean having sex without a condo? Yes, 0:02:30.247 --> 0:02:30.967 that's what I'm meaning. 0:02:31.007 --> 0:02:34.647 Yeah. Also bear backing. But this word, this phrase, this term, 0:02:34.687 --> 0:02:38.407 this idea has been co opted for a different and 0:02:38.487 --> 0:02:42.127 yet related meaning. Let me explain, raw dogging flying, raw 0:02:42.247 --> 0:02:45.887 or bearbacking on a flight refers to sitting there through 0:02:45.887 --> 0:02:49.247 the whole flight without any form of entertainment or stimulation 0:02:49.367 --> 0:02:52.967 or distraction to help the time pass. So no podcasts, 0:02:53.167 --> 0:02:57.167 no reading, no watching a movie, no watching a TV show. 0:02:57.607 --> 0:03:01.327 All you're allowed to do is watch the flight path map. 0:03:01.727 --> 0:03:03.087 That's as exciting as it gets. 0:03:03.167 --> 0:03:05.167 It's a sign of psychopath Yeah. 0:03:05.367 --> 0:03:07.927 So a twenty six year old guy from London called 0:03:08.007 --> 0:03:12.087 west Re simply went viral for the concept because he 0:03:12.287 --> 0:03:14.887 was showing himself raw dogging on a flight. There was 0:03:14.927 --> 0:03:18.447 a twenty one hour trip just prepared to laden and 0:03:18.527 --> 0:03:21.407 he told GQ magazine, who did a story on it 0:03:21.447 --> 0:03:24.527 that came out this week, he said he likens raw 0:03:24.567 --> 0:03:26.727 dogging to meditation. He said I got sick of watching 0:03:26.767 --> 0:03:29.607 the same movies. Visually, you are kind of impaired. You 0:03:29.647 --> 0:03:31.287 only get to look at the seat in front of you, 0:03:31.607 --> 0:03:33.887 to your right or your left. If you're at the window, 0:03:33.927 --> 0:03:36.127 all you hear is that drumming sound of the engine. 0:03:36.247 --> 0:03:39.567 It's just white noise. And he says, that's lovely. Jesse. 0:03:39.927 --> 0:03:42.767 You recently wrote I'm a Mayor about your experience traveling 0:03:42.767 --> 0:03:45.887 twenty six hours with Todd Luod. Does raw dogging sound 0:03:46.127 --> 0:03:47.327 like it could have made things better? 0:03:47.407 --> 0:03:48.927 This is why this story has pissed me off. I've 0:03:48.927 --> 0:03:50.967 seen the headlines and I'm like, oh, you think you 0:03:51.047 --> 0:03:53.567 werew a dog to fly? You roar dog to flight? 0:03:53.607 --> 0:03:53.847 Did you? 0:03:54.007 --> 0:03:57.407 Was it hard? Like I roar dog to flight against 0:03:57.567 --> 0:04:00.007 my will? I would have loved to sit there and 0:04:00.047 --> 0:04:03.327 watch a movie, or even just sit there quietly. They 0:04:03.367 --> 0:04:06.407 think that they're doing some tough muttershit by not putting 0:04:06.407 --> 0:04:10.287 in any stimulation. Throw in a baby throwing who there's 0:04:10.327 --> 0:04:12.487 your challenge. There's your tough mutter like. 0:04:12.567 --> 0:04:14.447 Not a lot of movies when you're looking after a 0:04:14.447 --> 0:04:15.567 small child exactly. 0:04:15.607 --> 0:04:18.367 I'm like people looking after babies have been raw dogging 0:04:18.407 --> 0:04:19.807 flights forever. 0:04:19.967 --> 0:04:20.887 So you did raw dogging. 0:04:20.927 --> 0:04:26.807 Plus I did not relaxing hard, which sounds even worse. 0:04:27.087 --> 0:04:30.007 I thought this story was nonsense, and then I remembered 0:04:30.327 --> 0:04:33.007 that I actually sat next to a young man who 0:04:33.047 --> 0:04:34.687 did this on my recent flight. 0:04:34.767 --> 0:04:35.727 He told us about it. 0:04:36.047 --> 0:04:39.447 Yeah, So when I went back to Manchester in April 0:04:39.447 --> 0:04:42.527 for my dad's Adith on the plane back, but sat 0:04:42.567 --> 0:04:45.047 down next to this young man and he was very 0:04:45.087 --> 0:04:48.207 fits this demo right, like a young cool kind of 0:04:48.327 --> 0:04:50.527 jen z Eddy guy. He was coming to Australia for 0:04:50.567 --> 0:04:52.527 the first time ever for a job. He's got a 0:04:52.527 --> 0:04:55.167 tech job and he's doing something techie, techie, he's like 0:04:55.207 --> 0:04:57.767 that tech guy. And he said, I've never done a 0:04:57.767 --> 0:04:59.527 long haul flight before, have you? And I was like, 0:05:00.647 --> 0:05:03.887 I've never done a long half flight. I was like, friends, 0:05:03.967 --> 0:05:06.887 I've been doing this flight for twenty five years now. 0:05:07.127 --> 0:05:08.767 And he says, what are your tips? And I was like, 0:05:09.447 --> 0:05:10.327 have a drink. 0:05:10.247 --> 0:05:13.047 Watch a movie, like just wait till it's over, wait 0:05:13.127 --> 0:05:14.727 till it's ever. It's just a day out of your life. 0:05:14.767 --> 0:05:17.967 That's what we always say is And he said, I'm 0:05:18.007 --> 0:05:21.767 going to use this as a challenge to myself to unplug. 0:05:22.447 --> 0:05:25.327 And I was like, you are an idiot. This is 0:05:25.367 --> 0:05:26.007 not the moment. 0:05:26.847 --> 0:05:28.247 Very slowly, but he did. 0:05:28.527 --> 0:05:31.407 This fits into our idea that men don't understand little 0:05:31.407 --> 0:05:34.727 treat culture. It's true because women will treat it if 0:05:34.767 --> 0:05:36.447 they can, if they don't have their hands full. It's 0:05:36.527 --> 0:05:37.447 just a series of treats. 0:05:37.767 --> 0:05:41.327 It's an amazing a rom com, exactly a bad food in. 0:05:41.327 --> 0:05:43.447 A mush yes, whereas men are like, how can I 0:05:43.487 --> 0:05:44.567 make this more painful? 0:05:44.767 --> 0:05:47.127 It's like just watch a movie. 0:05:47.367 --> 0:05:50.687 Yeah, come shopping with me at Witchery. I've never shopped 0:05:50.687 --> 0:05:52.527 here before, but I had to check it out because 0:05:52.527 --> 0:05:54.527 they did a whole new rebrand and were dropping some 0:05:54.607 --> 0:05:56.287 amazing new pieces this week. 0:05:56.447 --> 0:05:59.167 For better or for worse, everyone is talking about Australian 0:05:59.207 --> 0:06:03.527 fashion brand Witchery. Witchery has been around since the nineteen seventies, 0:06:03.607 --> 0:06:07.287 but at the end of last month they virtually wiped 0:06:07.367 --> 0:06:11.887 their Instagram account. They deleted it everything, and they then 0:06:11.967 --> 0:06:15.487 posted something that read coming soon a fresh design direction 0:06:15.687 --> 0:06:18.007 and new look for Witchery. On the second of July, 0:06:18.607 --> 0:06:22.047 they launched their brand new collection. It's called Bold Awakening 0:06:22.527 --> 0:06:26.047 and it is led by their new head of design 0:06:26.287 --> 0:06:30.087 named Kirby Hanrahan and the target is women who want 0:06:30.087 --> 0:06:34.487 to feel forever thirty and Hanrahan explained that everything has 0:06:34.527 --> 0:06:37.287 been designed to mix and match together to make a 0:06:37.327 --> 0:06:41.927 capsule wardrobe. This is a direction we've seen a lot 0:06:41.967 --> 0:06:45.967 of fashion brands go down, So Dish is an example 0:06:46.087 --> 0:06:50.207 seed assembly label. We're seeing less patterns and sequins sorry 0:06:50.207 --> 0:06:53.687 maya less sort of leopard print and more classic shapes. 0:06:53.807 --> 0:06:57.007 And the idea behind this is that it's smart merchandising 0:06:57.247 --> 0:07:00.487 because it addresses cost of living. It takes a lot 0:07:00.567 --> 0:07:03.727 more to have a woman spend her hard earned cash 0:07:03.727 --> 0:07:05.287 and she doesn't want something that's going to be out 0:07:05.327 --> 0:07:08.127 of fashion or look dated in two months. But with 0:07:08.247 --> 0:07:12.807 the new range a swift wave of criticism. Some customers 0:07:13.007 --> 0:07:16.967 noticed that sizing went from four to eighteen, meaning that 0:07:17.007 --> 0:07:20.807 Witchery had removed a size twenty and customers commented on 0:07:20.847 --> 0:07:23.247 the new range, saying, it's not a bold awakening. If 0:07:23.247 --> 0:07:26.447 you cannot do the bare minimum for size inclusivity, read 0:07:26.487 --> 0:07:28.727 the room, Witchery. It's twenty twenty four. You should be 0:07:28.807 --> 0:07:33.647 expanding sizing, not reducing it. Witchery swiftly released a statement 0:07:33.767 --> 0:07:36.287 that said if you're a twenty in the previous range, 0:07:36.327 --> 0:07:39.007 we invite you to try a size eighteen because this 0:07:39.127 --> 0:07:42.247 range is a more relaxed fit, and they added the 0:07:42.487 --> 0:07:45.727 size twenty that they previously had accounted for a small 0:07:45.767 --> 0:07:48.327 percentage of our sales, so there was also a business 0:07:48.367 --> 0:07:51.607 reason for it. We asked some women what they thought 0:07:51.767 --> 0:07:53.647 of the Witchery rebrand. Here's what they said. 0:07:54.567 --> 0:07:57.527 Yes, in terms of the rebrand, I think the actual 0:07:57.567 --> 0:08:01.007 PR launch was really cool, but I think a fell flat. 0:08:01.087 --> 0:08:04.047 I actually don't think it's very different than what they've 0:08:04.047 --> 0:08:04.527 done before. 0:08:04.567 --> 0:08:06.087 It still feels like old Witchery. 0:08:06.687 --> 0:08:11.247 I think they've completely alien needed like a big cohort 0:08:11.327 --> 0:08:14.327 of their customers, and also when they're trying to connect 0:08:14.327 --> 0:08:18.487 with the younger generation who cares about inclusivity, I think 0:08:18.527 --> 0:08:21.367 they've polarized a lot of people. 0:08:21.127 --> 0:08:21.847 Through doing that. 0:08:22.607 --> 0:08:25.647 I just think, in this day and age, to be 0:08:25.727 --> 0:08:28.167 cutting out a size twenty and then. 0:08:28.167 --> 0:08:31.767 Expect people to try the eighteen instead, it's pretty wild. 0:08:32.407 --> 0:08:34.607 I don't mind the direction they're going in. I think 0:08:34.647 --> 0:08:38.127 it's quite fresh and new in terms of the different 0:08:38.247 --> 0:08:41.687 sizing and removing the size twenty. I did hear through 0:08:41.687 --> 0:08:44.407 the grapevine that they might actually be bringing it back, 0:08:44.487 --> 0:08:47.287 but the reason that they took it off the market 0:08:47.407 --> 0:08:51.367 was because it wasn't accurate enough. So I think it's 0:08:51.407 --> 0:08:55.327 once they understand a more accurate size twenty, they are 0:08:55.407 --> 0:08:57.567 probably going to bring that back into stores. 0:08:58.087 --> 0:09:01.327 So the Witry rebrand looks exactly the same. I can't 0:09:01.327 --> 0:09:04.007 believe there spend time and energy trying to put out 0:09:04.047 --> 0:09:07.327 a new range or a new style and they made 0:09:07.327 --> 0:09:09.527 it so similar to what they were already doing ofense 0:09:09.567 --> 0:09:11.647 to them. The thing that's upset me the most, though, 0:09:11.687 --> 0:09:14.087 is the fact that they're bragging about using vanity sizing. 0:09:14.487 --> 0:09:16.767 Why is there more value in a smaller number on 0:09:16.767 --> 0:09:20.047 my shirt than a bigger number. My size is my size, 0:09:20.167 --> 0:09:23.287 I'm cool with it. Why are you witchery telling me 0:09:23.407 --> 0:09:25.687 that I should be happier in a smaller size than 0:09:25.727 --> 0:09:27.167 the number I actually am. 0:09:27.807 --> 0:09:31.367 Maya, what is vanity sizing? So? 0:09:31.487 --> 0:09:35.447 Vanity sizing is based on this idea that women put 0:09:35.487 --> 0:09:38.407 a lot of self esteem based on the size on 0:09:38.447 --> 0:09:41.567 their clothes, and that the smaller the size, the better 0:09:41.607 --> 0:09:45.767 a woman feels. So even though some people wonder why 0:09:45.807 --> 0:09:50.007 they might be a size ten in one label and 0:09:50.047 --> 0:09:53.127 a size fourteen in another and a size six in another, 0:09:54.087 --> 0:09:57.887 there's no such thing as standardized sizing. Every label size 0:09:57.927 --> 0:10:01.127 is depending on their customer base. So say you have 0:10:01.687 --> 0:10:05.327 four or five sizes, except for Brandy Melville, which only 0:10:05.327 --> 0:10:09.447 has one five. If your customers tend to be a 0:10:09.447 --> 0:10:12.407 certain age or they like a certain style of clothes, 0:10:12.927 --> 0:10:15.727 they might be a different body shape to the brand 0:10:16.007 --> 0:10:19.447 of another company that might target older women who might 0:10:19.527 --> 0:10:22.887 be larger, or you know, they might have different body shapes. 0:10:23.127 --> 0:10:25.567 So what I think we've got to remember, and I'd 0:10:25.607 --> 0:10:29.167 completely understand why people feel really upset about this. Fashion 0:10:29.207 --> 0:10:32.647 brands are businesses. They're not community services, and so they 0:10:32.647 --> 0:10:35.607 are going to do what's good for business. And I 0:10:35.687 --> 0:10:39.247 agree with that person who said, why did they capitulate 0:10:39.367 --> 0:10:42.327 this idea of vanity sizing and that women will feel 0:10:42.327 --> 0:10:45.807 better and more predisposed to the Witchery brand if they're 0:10:45.807 --> 0:10:48.287 a size eighteen when they used to be a size twenty. 0:10:49.327 --> 0:10:51.447 That's a big problem for Witchery to fix in terms 0:10:51.487 --> 0:10:55.047 of generations of beauty standards and oppression that we've inhaled. 0:10:55.407 --> 0:11:00.207 As that vanity sizing still stands because my experience, and 0:11:00.247 --> 0:11:02.327 I'm not plus sized, but my experience is that I 0:11:02.327 --> 0:11:04.447 will walk into a shop, I will look at the label. 0:11:04.487 --> 0:11:06.047 I hate trying things on, and I think that in 0:11:06.087 --> 0:11:08.407 spects to a lot of women's experience if they don't 0:11:08.487 --> 0:11:11.527 have the number that I see as the one that 0:11:11.567 --> 0:11:14.607 fits me, I'm not trying on a size smaller. 0:11:14.687 --> 0:11:18.087 I'm just And also, if you're buying online, which most 0:11:18.087 --> 0:11:20.767 people are these days, most people, but lots of people are. 0:11:20.847 --> 0:11:23.927 I live regionally, all the shopping is online, right then 0:11:23.967 --> 0:11:26.607 I have to go by sizes. I'm not trying things on, 0:11:26.927 --> 0:11:28.527 So they have to mean something. 0:11:28.687 --> 0:11:30.447 People used to know though they used to be a 0:11:30.487 --> 0:11:33.007 joke about. I'm a country Road size eight, which means 0:11:33.007 --> 0:11:34.767 women who were not a size eight in any other 0:11:34.847 --> 0:11:38.047 label were a country Road size eight who interestingly also 0:11:38.087 --> 0:11:42.607 owned Wittery. Country Road has always had generous sizing, whereas, 0:11:42.687 --> 0:11:46.967 for example, a size eight in Soupre or sports Girl 0:11:47.407 --> 0:11:51.407 might be a lot smaller because their target market is 0:11:51.447 --> 0:11:52.167 a lot smaller. 0:11:52.327 --> 0:11:55.687 Quite literally, that's what they're saying, though, isn't it right? 0:11:56.007 --> 0:11:59.207 How does this not become a self fulfilling prophecy? Do 0:11:59.207 --> 0:11:59.927 you know what I mean? 0:12:00.407 --> 0:12:00.647 You mean? 0:12:00.807 --> 0:12:05.247 So, the average Australian woman is a size fourteen to sixteen, 0:12:06.327 --> 0:12:08.767 and the sizing at Whicher is rebrand goes from a 0:12:08.767 --> 0:12:11.807 size five or to a size eighteen. We understand what 0:12:11.847 --> 0:12:15.247 average means, right, So why are there five sizes under 0:12:15.247 --> 0:12:16.647 the average and only one above it? 0:12:16.847 --> 0:12:18.327 Well that's alarming too, isn't it. 0:12:18.367 --> 0:12:20.967 So that is alarming because the thing is is it's 0:12:20.967 --> 0:12:23.487 a self fulfilling prophecy because you are marketing who I 0:12:23.527 --> 0:12:26.847 want to wear my clothes. It doesn't matter whether the 0:12:26.887 --> 0:12:29.207 eighteen is an eighteen or a twenty or a sixteen 0:12:29.287 --> 0:12:33.127 or whatever. By taking the twenty off the label, you 0:12:33.207 --> 0:12:36.927 are signaling to a portion of the population you're not 0:12:37.007 --> 0:12:39.647 welcome in this shop. We don't make clothes for you. 0:12:40.127 --> 0:12:43.047 It doesn't really matter whether the clothes fit, it's what 0:12:43.087 --> 0:12:46.927 it says. Because they're saying five sizes underneath the average, 0:12:46.967 --> 0:12:49.287 we want you, can you come in? Please? Can you 0:12:49.287 --> 0:12:50.407 come in and wear our clothes? 0:12:50.447 --> 0:12:51.407 And that's the right. 0:12:51.487 --> 0:12:54.127 People are really upset because they feel like a brand 0:12:54.127 --> 0:12:56.367 that they liked and trusted and thought was a mainstream 0:12:56.407 --> 0:13:00.647 brand that made relatively accessible clothes was for them and 0:13:00.687 --> 0:13:03.727 they've just been told that they're not. And that's not great. 0:13:03.807 --> 0:13:05.967 So brands do this in lots of different ways. They 0:13:06.167 --> 0:13:08.727 tell you who their target market is they do it 0:13:08.727 --> 0:13:10.927 with the music they play in stores, they do it 0:13:10.967 --> 0:13:13.367 with the people that they hire to work in their stores, 0:13:13.607 --> 0:13:16.447 they do it with of course they're advertising their social media, 0:13:16.967 --> 0:13:19.847 and they do it with their sizing. So I think 0:13:19.927 --> 0:13:22.727 that what Witcher is clearly from a business point of view, 0:13:22.887 --> 0:13:26.567 taking all emotions out of it. What has been clear 0:13:26.607 --> 0:13:28.887 to them It seems like their audience was aging out 0:13:29.367 --> 0:13:32.407 and perhaps those people who were older were not buying 0:13:32.487 --> 0:13:35.847 enough clothes, and so they need to go for a 0:13:35.887 --> 0:13:39.847 younger demographic, and they are trying to reposition themselves as 0:13:39.927 --> 0:13:44.487 younger and cooler, and by definition that will be exclusionary. 0:13:44.567 --> 0:13:46.927 But younger and cooler people care about inclusivity in a 0:13:46.967 --> 0:13:48.287 way the older clients don't. 0:13:48.527 --> 0:13:51.927 You're right about that, because younger people care about inclusivity, 0:13:51.967 --> 0:13:54.767 even if they themselves will not buy that. So the 0:13:54.847 --> 0:13:56.687 question is from a business point of view, and I 0:13:56.727 --> 0:13:58.767 know a lot of small businesses struggle with this as well, 0:13:58.767 --> 0:14:02.047 this expectation that every business needs to have a really 0:14:02.207 --> 0:14:06.887 wide inclusive size range. That's not always possible to manufacture 0:14:07.327 --> 0:14:11.727 because the more sizes you manufacture, the more expensive it 0:14:11.807 --> 0:14:13.047 is to produce those clothes. 0:14:13.327 --> 0:14:16.007 I understand that, but I also see what Holly's saying 0:14:16.007 --> 0:14:19.247 about self fulfilling. If I know that if I go 0:14:19.287 --> 0:14:21.767 to Westfield, I am not going to find in any 0:14:21.807 --> 0:14:24.047 shop something that fits me, I'm not going to go 0:14:24.047 --> 0:14:26.967 to Westfield, so I'm opting out. So it's this weird 0:14:27.047 --> 0:14:29.487 chicken and egg, right. It's like if everyone were to 0:14:29.687 --> 0:14:33.247 start offering those sizes, and you can't just start offering them, 0:14:33.367 --> 0:14:36.127 You've got to market them. You've got to tell people 0:14:36.167 --> 0:14:38.407 you've got them. So there are some places that do 0:14:38.487 --> 0:14:41.367 have a wide size range, but people have in their heads, oh, 0:14:41.367 --> 0:14:42.887 that would never fit me, that would never fit me. 0:14:42.927 --> 0:14:45.487 And we've all been in that position. If I remember, 0:14:45.527 --> 0:14:48.527 there was a brand called Patinalaliano, which interestingly enough doesn't 0:14:48.567 --> 0:14:51.247 exist anymore, but in the nineties it used to be 0:14:51.327 --> 0:14:53.527 famous that you would go in there and the very 0:14:53.567 --> 0:14:56.287 skinny sales girls would say, if you're a bigger than 0:14:56.287 --> 0:14:58.567 a size ten, oh, we don't have anything for you here. 0:14:59.007 --> 0:15:01.047 And I don't even think they went past a size ten. 0:15:01.247 --> 0:15:04.367 And that was very clearly they were trying to say, 0:15:04.447 --> 0:15:06.887 we only want a certain type of people wearing our clothes. 0:15:06.887 --> 0:15:09.807 And again I'm not defending this, I'm just explaining it 0:15:09.927 --> 0:15:12.527 because Brandy Melville is another example of that. There's only 0:15:12.567 --> 0:15:13.127 one side. 0:15:13.167 --> 0:15:15.567 But here's the thing that I don't understand about if 0:15:15.607 --> 0:15:18.847 this is just smart business, I don't see how it's 0:15:18.887 --> 0:15:21.447 possibly just smart business because they're still making the same 0:15:21.487 --> 0:15:24.087 size clothes if you believe their story, they're eighteen is 0:15:24.087 --> 0:15:25.847 a twenty. They've just changed the numbers, so they're not 0:15:25.887 --> 0:15:28.607 saving any money, they're not making any efficiencies. They're just 0:15:28.687 --> 0:15:31.607 making a very clear marketing call that we don't want 0:15:31.607 --> 0:15:32.887 bigger women in our shops. 0:15:32.967 --> 0:15:35.047 No, but they're not because but the women who are 0:15:35.047 --> 0:15:39.007 size twenty, they're saying, still come, still buy. But guess what, 0:15:39.087 --> 0:15:40.887 you've just gone down to size Ah. 0:15:41.127 --> 0:15:44.447 But going to this idea that they're appealing to a younger, 0:15:44.487 --> 0:15:48.127 cooler demo, the younger, cooler demo is unpicking this idea 0:15:48.167 --> 0:15:51.527 of vanity sizing. I'm talking to my like, my teenager 0:15:51.567 --> 0:15:53.527 is buying clothes and she's buying online as I say, 0:15:53.567 --> 0:15:57.487 we live recently. Also, it's crazy because they're competing these 0:15:57.487 --> 0:16:00.087 brands with Timu and Sheen and all these places where 0:16:00.087 --> 0:16:02.727 the clothes are so much cheaper and come in a 0:16:02.847 --> 0:16:06.007 much wider range of sizing. So it is really silly, 0:16:06.047 --> 0:16:09.927 this elitist approach. But also it's this idea that young people. 0:16:09.927 --> 0:16:11.527 I just hang on a second, Hey, let's unpack that 0:16:11.567 --> 0:16:14.727 for a second, because what are we asking here. If 0:16:14.767 --> 0:16:18.327 you want to mass produce, yes, you can afford, because 0:16:18.327 --> 0:16:20.567 you're going to reach millions and millions of people. It's 0:16:20.567 --> 0:16:24.407 going to be incredibly cheap. What things are happening in 0:16:24.447 --> 0:16:28.087 that production line to create that jacket that costs eight 0:16:28.087 --> 0:16:31.847 dollars from Timu. They might have all sorts of sizes, 0:16:32.007 --> 0:16:34.527 but we know that so these are business decisions. 0:16:34.687 --> 0:16:37.247 As I've just said, they haven't changed their business model. 0:16:37.287 --> 0:16:39.807 They say they're eighteen is a twenty. It's a marketing decision, 0:16:39.807 --> 0:16:42.087 and I get that that's a business decision. But my 0:16:42.207 --> 0:16:45.367 question is if we're working hard to unpick. As one 0:16:45.407 --> 0:16:48.247 of our Voxpop people said there, that a smaller number 0:16:48.287 --> 0:16:50.287 is a better number always, and I think that we 0:16:50.407 --> 0:16:53.887 really have been making headway there, particularly with younger people. 0:16:54.167 --> 0:16:56.327 So when I talk to my daughter and I'm like, well, 0:16:56.367 --> 0:16:58.647 you might buy this size, you might buy this size, 0:16:58.767 --> 0:17:00.927 It's got nothing to do with your body. It's to 0:17:00.927 --> 0:17:03.527 do with the way the clothes are made. I'm trying 0:17:03.607 --> 0:17:05.887 really hard not to give her a message that a 0:17:05.967 --> 0:17:07.967 ten is better than a twelve is better than a fourteen, 0:17:08.287 --> 0:17:10.127 and so it just seems regressive. 0:17:10.527 --> 0:17:12.967 Clothing labels have to have sizes, right. And it's interesting 0:17:13.007 --> 0:17:14.727 what you say, Jesse about if you go in and 0:17:14.767 --> 0:17:16.967 you don't see anything in your size, the number you've 0:17:16.967 --> 0:17:19.047 got in my head. I don't have a number in 0:17:19.047 --> 0:17:21.687 my head because in my wardrobe I've got everything from 0:17:21.687 --> 0:17:24.527 a size six to a size fourteen, depending on how 0:17:24.567 --> 0:17:27.647 I like it to fit, depending on what label it is, 0:17:27.927 --> 0:17:28.767 depending on when I go. 0:17:28.887 --> 0:17:31.127 I think there are different types of consumers, right. And 0:17:31.167 --> 0:17:34.567 the other thing that's happening here is I wonder, in 0:17:34.647 --> 0:17:37.887 terms of the economics of the whole thing, people who 0:17:37.927 --> 0:17:41.047 are straight sized probably buy more clothes. Why do they 0:17:41.087 --> 0:17:43.367 buy more clothes because there are more clothes available? 0:17:43.407 --> 0:17:43.727 Correct? 0:17:43.927 --> 0:17:47.807 Yes, So it's like it's self fulfilling because if I'm 0:17:47.847 --> 0:17:50.367 a size twenty, then it's like I don't feel like 0:17:50.367 --> 0:17:52.727 I have lots of options. The world has told me 0:17:52.887 --> 0:17:55.447 that there are only certain styles that suit me. 0:17:55.647 --> 0:17:57.047 I'm going to push back on that. I think there 0:17:57.047 --> 0:17:59.967 are more options now than there ever have been before, 0:18:00.527 --> 0:18:02.407 with just a diversity of sizes. 0:18:02.447 --> 0:18:05.607 But we've just established that the average Australian woman is 0:18:05.607 --> 0:18:09.607 a fourteen to sixty, So that means that the average 0:18:09.647 --> 0:18:11.327 is the middle. Think of the amount of people who 0:18:11.407 --> 0:18:13.007 are above that not being so. 0:18:13.127 --> 0:18:15.527 I think what's interesting here, as you said, Wholly and 0:18:15.567 --> 0:18:17.807 again I'm not divining Witchery, is the fact that it 0:18:17.967 --> 0:18:20.047 used to be the smaller size, the fact that we 0:18:20.127 --> 0:18:21.567 are now going down to a four. 0:18:22.447 --> 0:18:26.287 What is that saying, Well, it's probably saying something about 0:18:26.487 --> 0:18:29.287 the teen segment or kind of the you know, fifteen, 0:18:29.327 --> 0:18:31.967 sixteen seventeen. You used to go and almost shop as 0:18:32.007 --> 0:18:34.167 a child, or we had I remember I did soup 0:18:34.167 --> 0:18:36.207 pre right. It was like I never shopped in the 0:18:36.207 --> 0:18:39.847 same shop as my mother. But now we kind of are. 0:18:40.367 --> 0:18:42.087 But on the size fourteen to sixteen. 0:18:42.167 --> 0:18:42.727 I looked it up. 0:18:42.767 --> 0:18:45.727 I looked at Witchery's competitors. I couldn't find one of 0:18:45.767 --> 0:18:50.167 Witchery's competitors that went above a sixteen. So Witchery is 0:18:50.207 --> 0:18:54.167 already doing like one more, which isn't you know, to 0:18:54.167 --> 0:18:57.287 give them too much credit. But if the average is 0:18:57.287 --> 0:19:01.527 fourteen to sixteen, and that is an extra on, some extra, extra, 0:19:01.607 --> 0:19:04.287 extra large, well that is why. 0:19:04.087 --> 0:19:06.167 Yeah, that's why this has become such in a motive 0:19:06.287 --> 0:19:09.047 conversation this week, right, because a lot of people are 0:19:09.047 --> 0:19:11.447