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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA mea podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on. Are we Ready?

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Speaker 1: We are?

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Speaker 2: Jesse Stevens, Yes, three two one, Hello, and welcome to

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Speaker 2: Mom and Me Are out Loud. It's all women are

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Speaker 2: actually talking about. On Wednesday, the tenth of July.

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Speaker 3: I'm Holly Wayne.

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Speaker 4: Right, I'm Me Friedman, and I'm Jesse Stevens and out louders.

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Speaker 4: If you're listening to this episode, I poll you're listening

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Speaker 4: on Spotify. It has come to our attention that a

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Speaker 4: great many of you do not follow us, and that

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Speaker 4: means that the episode does not automatically go.

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Speaker 1: Into your feature. Who would be one of those people?

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Speaker 4: Jesse Stevens, Holly and I are that personality type, so

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Speaker 4: probably as Sagittarius.

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Speaker 1: Okay, this was a very strange conversation for me to

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Speaker 1: have because I don't understand how you listen to a

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Speaker 1: podcast if you're not following it. I go and search

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Speaker 1: it every time you want to listen to a podcast. Look.

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Speaker 2: Also, my Spotify has on the front page it'll say

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Speaker 2: your show's new episodes. I don't need to do that,

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Speaker 2: but however that you do talking gates myself.

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Speaker 1: Yes, so what you.

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Speaker 4: Need to do is you've said and then in the

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Speaker 4: top right hand corner on Apple I know it says

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Speaker 4: follow and you can click the follow button. And on

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Speaker 4: Spotify it's exactly the same. It's the word that says follow.

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Speaker 4: It has six letters wow, and it starts with air.

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Speaker 1: This is great and then tap it. Where do I

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Speaker 1: put my ear buds my air pods? Which holes do

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Speaker 1: they go?

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Speaker 2: In podcasting? Okay, okay, so we've started with the ear

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Speaker 2: buds in the vagina On Wednesday show, I Am going

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Speaker 2: to get this train.

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Speaker 1: Back on the tracks baby.

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Speaker 2: On today's show, why absolutely everybody is talking about a

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Speaker 2: major Australian fashion brands body count. Also does an adult

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Speaker 2: child get us say? And who their mom dates? Welcome

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Speaker 2: to the new age of endless parenting. And people are

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Speaker 2: posting strangers gossip sessions on TikTok and someone really needs

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Speaker 2: to tell Sarah that her friends hate her. But first

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Speaker 2: mea Friedman in.

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Speaker 1: Case you missed it, meant are raw dogging on flights?

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Speaker 2: That sounds I think it's not.

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Speaker 1: What you think.

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Speaker 4: Dogging flights. I don't think we're doing on flights is

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Speaker 4: quite accurate.

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Speaker 1: What do you think real dogging means?

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Speaker 4: This is I've heard young people use it, and I've

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Speaker 4: wanted to say, I don't think you fully understand what

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Speaker 4: does so? Because doesn't it mean having sex without a condo? Yes,

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Speaker 4: that's what I'm meaning.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Also bear backing. But this word, this phrase, this term,

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Speaker 1: this idea has been co opted for a different and

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Speaker 1: yet related meaning. Let me explain, raw dogging flying, raw

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Speaker 1: or bearbacking on a flight refers to sitting there through

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Speaker 1: the whole flight without any form of entertainment or stimulation

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Speaker 1: or distraction to help the time pass. So no podcasts,

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Speaker 1: no reading, no watching a movie, no watching a TV show.

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Speaker 1: All you're allowed to do is watch the flight path map.

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Speaker 1: That's as exciting as it gets.

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Speaker 4: It's a sign of psychopath Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So a twenty six year old guy from London called

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Speaker 1: west Re simply went viral for the concept because he

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Speaker 1: was showing himself raw dogging on a flight. There was

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Speaker 1: a twenty one hour trip just prepared to laden and

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Speaker 1: he told GQ magazine, who did a story on it

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Speaker 1: that came out this week, he said he likens raw

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Speaker 1: dogging to meditation. He said I got sick of watching

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Speaker 1: the same movies. Visually, you are kind of impaired. You

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Speaker 1: only get to look at the seat in front of you,

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Speaker 1: to your right or your left. If you're at the window,

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Speaker 1: all you hear is that drumming sound of the engine.

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Speaker 1: It's just white noise. And he says, that's lovely. Jesse.

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Speaker 1: You recently wrote I'm a Mayor about your experience traveling

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Speaker 1: twenty six hours with Todd Luod. Does raw dogging sound

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Speaker 1: like it could have made things better?

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Speaker 4: This is why this story has pissed me off. I've

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Speaker 4: seen the headlines and I'm like, oh, you think you

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Speaker 4: werew a dog to fly? You roar dog to flight?

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Speaker 1: Did you?

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Speaker 4: Was it hard? Like I roar dog to flight against

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Speaker 4: my will? I would have loved to sit there and

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Speaker 4: watch a movie, or even just sit there quietly. They

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Speaker 4: think that they're doing some tough muttershit by not putting

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Speaker 4: in any stimulation. Throw in a baby throwing who there's

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Speaker 4: your challenge. There's your tough mutter like.

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Speaker 1: Not a lot of movies when you're looking after a

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Speaker 1: small child exactly.

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Speaker 4: I'm like people looking after babies have been raw dogging

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Speaker 4: flights forever.

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Speaker 1: So you did raw dogging.

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Speaker 4: Plus I did not relaxing hard, which sounds even worse.

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Speaker 2: I thought this story was nonsense, and then I remembered

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Speaker 2: that I actually sat next to a young man who

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Speaker 2: did this on my recent flight.

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Speaker 4: He told us about it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So when I went back to Manchester in April

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Speaker 2: for my dad's Adith on the plane back, but sat

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Speaker 2: down next to this young man and he was very

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Speaker 2: fits this demo right, like a young cool kind of

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Speaker 2: jen z Eddy guy. He was coming to Australia for

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Speaker 2: the first time ever for a job. He's got a

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Speaker 2: tech job and he's doing something techie, techie, he's like

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Speaker 2: that tech guy. And he said, I've never done a

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Speaker 2: long haul flight before, have you? And I was like,

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Speaker 2: I've never done a long half flight. I was like, friends,

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Speaker 2: I've been doing this flight for twenty five years now.

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Speaker 2: And he says, what are your tips? And I was like,

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Speaker 2: have a drink.

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Speaker 1: Watch a movie, like just wait till it's over, wait

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Speaker 1: till it's ever. It's just a day out of your life.

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Speaker 2: That's what we always say is And he said, I'm

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Speaker 2: going to use this as a challenge to myself to unplug.

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Speaker 2: And I was like, you are an idiot. This is

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Speaker 2: not the moment.

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Speaker 1: Very slowly, but he did.

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Speaker 4: This fits into our idea that men don't understand little

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Speaker 4: treat culture. It's true because women will treat it if

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Speaker 4: they can, if they don't have their hands full. It's

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Speaker 4: just a series of treats.

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Speaker 2: It's an amazing a rom com, exactly a bad food in.

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Speaker 4: A mush yes, whereas men are like, how can I

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Speaker 4: make this more painful?

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Speaker 2: It's like just watch a movie.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, come shopping with me at Witchery. I've never shopped

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Speaker 1: here before, but I had to check it out because

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Speaker 1: they did a whole new rebrand and were dropping some

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Speaker 1: amazing new pieces this week.

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Speaker 4: For better or for worse, everyone is talking about Australian

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Speaker 4: fashion brand Witchery. Witchery has been around since the nineteen seventies,

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Speaker 4: but at the end of last month they virtually wiped

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Speaker 4: their Instagram account. They deleted it everything, and they then

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Speaker 4: posted something that read coming soon a fresh design direction

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Speaker 4: and new look for Witchery. On the second of July,

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Speaker 4: they launched their brand new collection. It's called Bold Awakening

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Speaker 4: and it is led by their new head of design

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Speaker 4: named Kirby Hanrahan and the target is women who want

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Speaker 4: to feel forever thirty and Hanrahan explained that everything has

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Speaker 4: been designed to mix and match together to make a

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Speaker 4: capsule wardrobe. This is a direction we've seen a lot

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Speaker 4: of fashion brands go down, So Dish is an example

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Speaker 4: seed assembly label. We're seeing less patterns and sequins sorry

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Speaker 4: maya less sort of leopard print and more classic shapes.

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Speaker 4: And the idea behind this is that it's smart merchandising

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Speaker 4: because it addresses cost of living. It takes a lot

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Speaker 4: more to have a woman spend her hard earned cash

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Speaker 4: and she doesn't want something that's going to be out

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Speaker 4: of fashion or look dated in two months. But with

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Speaker 4: the new range a swift wave of criticism. Some customers

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Speaker 4: noticed that sizing went from four to eighteen, meaning that

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Speaker 4: Witchery had removed a size twenty and customers commented on

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Speaker 4: the new range, saying, it's not a bold awakening. If

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Speaker 4: you cannot do the bare minimum for size inclusivity, read

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Speaker 4: the room, Witchery. It's twenty twenty four. You should be

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Speaker 4: expanding sizing, not reducing it. Witchery swiftly released a statement

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Speaker 4: that said if you're a twenty in the previous range,

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Speaker 4: we invite you to try a size eighteen because this

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Speaker 4: range is a more relaxed fit, and they added the

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Speaker 4: size twenty that they previously had accounted for a small

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Speaker 4: percentage of our sales, so there was also a business

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Speaker 4: reason for it. We asked some women what they thought

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Speaker 4: of the Witchery rebrand. Here's what they said.

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Speaker 5: Yes, in terms of the rebrand, I think the actual

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Speaker 5: PR launch was really cool, but I think a fell flat.

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Speaker 5: I actually don't think it's very different than what they've

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Speaker 5: done before.

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Speaker 1: It still feels like old Witchery.

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Speaker 5: I think they've completely alien needed like a big cohort

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Speaker 5: of their customers, and also when they're trying to connect

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Speaker 5: with the younger generation who cares about inclusivity, I think

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Speaker 5: they've polarized a lot of people.

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Speaker 3: Through doing that.

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Speaker 1: I just think, in this day and age, to be

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Speaker 1: cutting out a size twenty and then.

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Speaker 6: Expect people to try the eighteen instead, it's pretty wild.

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Speaker 7: I don't mind the direction they're going in. I think

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Speaker 7: it's quite fresh and new in terms of the different

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Speaker 7: sizing and removing the size twenty. I did hear through

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Speaker 7: the grapevine that they might actually be bringing it back,

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Speaker 7: but the reason that they took it off the market

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Speaker 7: was because it wasn't accurate enough. So I think it's

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Speaker 7: once they understand a more accurate size twenty, they are

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Speaker 7: probably going to bring that back into stores.

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Speaker 6: So the Witry rebrand looks exactly the same. I can't

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Speaker 6: believe there spend time and energy trying to put out

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Speaker 6: a new range or a new style and they made

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Speaker 6: it so similar to what they were already doing ofense

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Speaker 6: to them. The thing that's upset me the most, though,

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Speaker 6: is the fact that they're bragging about using vanity sizing.

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Speaker 6: Why is there more value in a smaller number on

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Speaker 6: my shirt than a bigger number. My size is my size,

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Speaker 6: I'm cool with it. Why are you witchery telling me

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Speaker 6: that I should be happier in a smaller size than

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Speaker 6: the number I actually am.

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Speaker 4: Maya, what is vanity sizing? So?

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Speaker 1: Vanity sizing is based on this idea that women put

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Speaker 1: a lot of self esteem based on the size on

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Speaker 1: their clothes, and that the smaller the size, the better

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Speaker 1: a woman feels. So even though some people wonder why

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Speaker 1: they might be a size ten in one label and

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Speaker 1: a size fourteen in another and a size six in another,

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Speaker 1: there's no such thing as standardized sizing. Every label size

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Speaker 1: is depending on their customer base. So say you have

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Speaker 1: four or five sizes, except for Brandy Melville, which only

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Speaker 1: has one five. If your customers tend to be a

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Speaker 1: certain age or they like a certain style of clothes,

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Speaker 1: they might be a different body shape to the brand

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Speaker 1: of another company that might target older women who might

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Speaker 1: be larger, or you know, they might have different body shapes.

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Speaker 1: So what I think we've got to remember, and I'd

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Speaker 1: completely understand why people feel really upset about this. Fashion

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Speaker 1: brands are businesses. They're not community services, and so they

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Speaker 1: are going to do what's good for business. And I

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Speaker 1: agree with that person who said, why did they capitulate

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Speaker 1: this idea of vanity sizing and that women will feel

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Speaker 1: better and more predisposed to the Witchery brand if they're

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Speaker 1: a size eighteen when they used to be a size twenty.

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Speaker 1: That's a big problem for Witchery to fix in terms

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Speaker 1: of generations of beauty standards and oppression that we've inhaled.

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Speaker 4: As that vanity sizing still stands because my experience, and

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Speaker 4: I'm not plus sized, but my experience is that I

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Speaker 4: will walk into a shop, I will look at the label.

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Speaker 4: I hate trying things on, and I think that in

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Speaker 4: spects to a lot of women's experience if they don't

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Speaker 4: have the number that I see as the one that

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Speaker 4: fits me, I'm not trying on a size smaller.

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Speaker 2: I'm just And also, if you're buying online, which most

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Speaker 2: people are these days, most people, but lots of people are.

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Speaker 2: I live regionally, all the shopping is online, right then

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Speaker 2: I have to go by sizes. I'm not trying things on,

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Speaker 2: So they have to mean something.

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Speaker 1: People used to know though they used to be a

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Speaker 1: joke about. I'm a country Road size eight, which means

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Speaker 1: women who were not a size eight in any other

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Speaker 1: label were a country Road size eight who interestingly also

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Speaker 1: owned Wittery. Country Road has always had generous sizing, whereas,

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Speaker 1: for example, a size eight in Soupre or sports Girl

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Speaker 1: might be a lot smaller because their target market is

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Speaker 1: a lot smaller.

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Speaker 2: Quite literally, that's what they're saying, though, isn't it right?

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Speaker 2: How does this not become a self fulfilling prophecy? Do

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Speaker 2: you know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: You mean?

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Speaker 2: So, the average Australian woman is a size fourteen to sixteen,

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Speaker 2: and the sizing at Whicher is rebrand goes from a

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Speaker 2: size five or to a size eighteen. We understand what

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Speaker 2: average means, right, So why are there five sizes under

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Speaker 2: the average and only one above it?

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Speaker 1: Well that's alarming too, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: So that is alarming because the thing is is it's

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Speaker 2: a self fulfilling prophecy because you are marketing who I

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Speaker 2: want to wear my clothes. It doesn't matter whether the

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Speaker 2: eighteen is an eighteen or a twenty or a sixteen

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Speaker 2: or whatever. By taking the twenty off the label, you

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Speaker 2: are signaling to a portion of the population you're not

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Speaker 2: welcome in this shop. We don't make clothes for you.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't really matter whether the clothes fit, it's what

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Speaker 2: it says. Because they're saying five sizes underneath the average,

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Speaker 2: we want you, can you come in? Please? Can you

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Speaker 2: come in and wear our clothes?

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Speaker 1: And that's the right.

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Speaker 2: People are really upset because they feel like a brand

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Speaker 2: that they liked and trusted and thought was a mainstream

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Speaker 2: brand that made relatively accessible clothes was for them and

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Speaker 2: they've just been told that they're not. And that's not great.

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Speaker 1: So brands do this in lots of different ways. They

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Speaker 1: tell you who their target market is they do it

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Speaker 1: with the music they play in stores, they do it

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Speaker 1: with the people that they hire to work in their stores,

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Speaker 1: they do it with of course they're advertising their social media,

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Speaker 1: and they do it with their sizing. So I think

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Speaker 1: that what Witcher is clearly from a business point of view,

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Speaker 1: taking all emotions out of it. What has been clear

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Speaker 1: to them It seems like their audience was aging out

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Speaker 1: and perhaps those people who were older were not buying

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Speaker 1: enough clothes, and so they need to go for a

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Speaker 1: younger demographic, and they are trying to reposition themselves as

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Speaker 1: younger and cooler, and by definition that will be exclusionary.

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Speaker 2: But younger and cooler people care about inclusivity in a

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Speaker 2: way the older clients don't.

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Speaker 1: You're right about that, because younger people care about inclusivity,

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Speaker 1: even if they themselves will not buy that. So the

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Speaker 1: question is from a business point of view, and I

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Speaker 1: know a lot of small businesses struggle with this as well,

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Speaker 1: this expectation that every business needs to have a really

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Speaker 1: wide inclusive size range. That's not always possible to manufacture

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Speaker 1: because the more sizes you manufacture, the more expensive it

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Speaker 1: is to produce those clothes.

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Speaker 4: I understand that, but I also see what Holly's saying

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Speaker 4: about self fulfilling. If I know that if I go

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Speaker 4: to Westfield, I am not going to find in any

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Speaker 4: shop something that fits me, I'm not going to go

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Speaker 4: to Westfield, so I'm opting out. So it's this weird

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Speaker 4: chicken and egg, right. It's like if everyone were to

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Speaker 4: start offering those sizes, and you can't just start offering them,

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Speaker 4: You've got to market them. You've got to tell people

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Speaker 4: you've got them. So there are some places that do

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Speaker 4: have a wide size range, but people have in their heads, oh,

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Speaker 4: that would never fit me, that would never fit me.

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Speaker 1: And we've all been in that position. If I remember,

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Speaker 1: there was a brand called Patinalaliano, which interestingly enough doesn't

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Speaker 1: exist anymore, but in the nineties it used to be

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Speaker 1: famous that you would go in there and the very

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Speaker 1: skinny sales girls would say, if you're a bigger than

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Speaker 1: a size ten, oh, we don't have anything for you here.

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Speaker 1: And I don't even think they went past a size ten.

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Speaker 1: And that was very clearly they were trying to say,

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Speaker 1: we only want a certain type of people wearing our clothes.

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Speaker 1: And again I'm not defending this, I'm just explaining it

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Speaker 1: because Brandy Melville is another example of that. There's only

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Speaker 1: one side.

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Speaker 2: But here's the thing that I don't understand about if

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Speaker 2: this is just smart business, I don't see how it's

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Speaker 2: possibly just smart business because they're still making the same

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Speaker 2: size clothes if you believe their story, they're eighteen is

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Speaker 2: a twenty. They've just changed the numbers, so they're not

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Speaker 2: saving any money, they're not making any efficiencies. They're just

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Speaker 2: making a very clear marketing call that we don't want

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Speaker 2: bigger women in our shops.

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Speaker 1: No, but they're not because but the women who are

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Speaker 1: size twenty, they're saying, still come, still buy. But guess what,

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Speaker 1: you've just gone down to size Ah.

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Speaker 2: But going to this idea that they're appealing to a younger,

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Speaker 2: cooler demo, the younger, cooler demo is unpicking this idea

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Speaker 2: of vanity sizing. I'm talking to my like, my teenager

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Speaker 2: is buying clothes and she's buying online as I say,

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Speaker 2: we live recently. Also, it's crazy because they're competing these

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Speaker 2: brands with Timu and Sheen and all these places where

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Speaker 2: the clothes are so much cheaper and come in a

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Speaker 2: much wider range of sizing. So it is really silly,

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Speaker 2: this elitist approach. But also it's this idea that young people.

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Speaker 1: I just hang on a second, Hey, let's unpack that

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Speaker 1: for a second, because what are we asking here. If

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Speaker 1: you want to mass produce, yes, you can afford, because

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Speaker 1: you're going to reach millions and millions of people. It's

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Speaker 1: going to be incredibly cheap. What things are happening in

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Speaker 1: that production line to create that jacket that costs eight

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Speaker 1: dollars from Timu. They might have all sorts of sizes,

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Speaker 1: but we know that so these are business decisions.

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Speaker 2: As I've just said, they haven't changed their business model.

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Speaker 2: They say they're eighteen is a twenty. It's a marketing decision,

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Speaker 2: and I get that that's a business decision. But my

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Speaker 2: question is if we're working hard to unpick. As one

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Speaker 2: of our Voxpop people said there, that a smaller number

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Speaker 2: is a better number always, and I think that we

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Speaker 2: really have been making headway there, particularly with younger people.

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Speaker 2: So when I talk to my daughter and I'm like, well,

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Speaker 2: you might buy this size, you might buy this size,

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Speaker 2: It's got nothing to do with your body. It's to

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Speaker 2: do with the way the clothes are made. I'm trying

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Speaker 2: really hard not to give her a message that a

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Speaker 2: ten is better than a twelve is better than a fourteen,

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Speaker 2: and so it just seems regressive.

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Speaker 1: Clothing labels have to have sizes, right. And it's interesting

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Speaker 1: what you say, Jesse about if you go in and

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Speaker 1: you don't see anything in your size, the number you've

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Speaker 1: got in my head. I don't have a number in

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Speaker 1: my head because in my wardrobe I've got everything from

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Speaker 1: a size six to a size fourteen, depending on how

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Speaker 1: I like it to fit, depending on what label it is,

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Speaker 1: depending on when I go.

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Speaker 4: I think there are different types of consumers, right. And

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Speaker 4: the other thing that's happening here is I wonder, in

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Speaker 4: terms of the economics of the whole thing, people who

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Speaker 4: are straight sized probably buy more clothes. Why do they

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Speaker 4: buy more clothes because there are more clothes available?

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Speaker 1: Correct?

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Speaker 4: Yes, So it's like it's self fulfilling because if I'm

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Speaker 4: a size twenty, then it's like I don't feel like

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Speaker 4: I have lots of options. The world has told me

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Speaker 4: that there are only certain styles that suit me.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to push back on that. I think there

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Speaker 1: are more options now than there ever have been before,

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Speaker 1: with just a diversity of sizes.

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Speaker 2: But we've just established that the average Australian woman is

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Speaker 2: a fourteen to sixty, So that means that the average

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Speaker 2: is the middle. Think of the amount of people who

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Speaker 2: are above that not being so.

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Speaker 1: I think what's interesting here, as you said, Wholly and

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Speaker 1: again I'm not divining Witchery, is the fact that it

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Speaker 1: used to be the smaller size, the fact that we

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Speaker 1: are now going down to a four.

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Speaker 4: What is that saying, Well, it's probably saying something about

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Speaker 4: the teen segment or kind of the you know, fifteen,

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Speaker 4: sixteen seventeen. You used to go and almost shop as

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Speaker 4: a child, or we had I remember I did soup

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Speaker 4: pre right. It was like I never shopped in the

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Speaker 4: same shop as my mother. But now we kind of are.

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Speaker 4: But on the size fourteen to sixteen.

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Speaker 2: I looked it up.

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Speaker 4: I looked at Witchery's competitors. I couldn't find one of

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Speaker 4: Witchery's competitors that went above a sixteen. So Witchery is

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Speaker 4: already doing like one more, which isn't you know, to

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Speaker 4: give them too much credit. But if the average is

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Speaker 4: fourteen to sixteen, and that is an extra on, some extra, extra,

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Speaker 4: extra large, well that is why.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why this has become such in a motive

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Speaker 2: conversation this week, right, because a lot of people are

401
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Speaker 2: really mad about it. A lot of people are very upset.

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Speaker 2: And that's the reason why, because as you just said,

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Speaker 2: there are enormous amount of Australian women who are just

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Speaker 2: cut out of being able to enjoy fashion and able

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Speaker 2: to enjoy clothes. I have one more question on this though,

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Speaker 2: from my business expert friend, Meir Friedman. There's a little

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Speaker 2: cynical bit of me that thinks this was a deliberate

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Speaker 2: fuss because, as you said, Jesse, they wiped their instir.

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Speaker 2: They've come back all big. They needed a big splash.

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Speaker 2: They apparently haven't changed anything except the numbers.

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Speaker 1: No, that's not true. They've really changed the range.

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Speaker 2: No no, no, sorry, I mean in terms of the sizing,

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Speaker 2: and they haven't changed anything except the numbers. No, no, I

414
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Speaker 2: know the clothes are different, But what I mean is

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Speaker 2: they haven't actually cut size twenty. They've just rebranded it.

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Speaker 2: That's what they're telling us. So the decision to do

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Speaker 2: it was it just a publicity play because everybody's been

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Speaker 2: talking about Witchery for five days now, negatively positively. Oh

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Speaker 2: maybe I'll go and have a look. I went online

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Speaker 2: looked at this new range. Was very representative of the

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Speaker 2: clothes I see the young people around the office. It

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Speaker 2: was very expensive. There was a really beautiful blue shirt

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Speaker 2: and I'm like, oh, I might buy that, and then

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Speaker 2: I was like, oh, I don't know if I should

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Speaker 2: because maybe it's bad. But so was this just smart

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Speaker 2: marketing to cause a storm for Witchery.

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Speaker 4: And did it work well?

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Speaker 1: It has worked, because sales are up forty one percent,

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Speaker 1: But I don't think anyone would say that you would

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Speaker 1: deliberately try to have a backlash against and criticism of

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Speaker 1: a new launch. I really feel for the young designer Kirby,

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Speaker 1: who's been brought in clearly with an objective, here's what

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Speaker 1: we want you to do for the business. She's done

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Speaker 1: that clearly, and she's personally copped a lot of backlash

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Speaker 1: because we've sort of lays it in on the size thing.

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Speaker 1: But there's also a bubbleskirt that people were really angry

437
00:20:53,287 --> 00:20:56,247
Speaker 1: about because it's like, oh, I always depended on Witchery

438
00:20:56,327 --> 00:21:00,207
Speaker 1: for corporate wear and sort of grown up clothes, and

439
00:21:00,247 --> 00:21:03,087
Speaker 1: Witchery models were a little bit older, and now it

440
00:21:03,127 --> 00:21:05,447
Speaker 1: does look cooler in their marketing, in the clothes that

441
00:21:05,487 --> 00:21:07,887
Speaker 1: they've done. It's also more expensive, as you say. And

442
00:21:07,927 --> 00:21:10,447
Speaker 1: I think what's been interesting to me is to see

443
00:21:10,967 --> 00:21:12,887
Speaker 1: it's been a good thing for Witchery in some ways,

444
00:21:12,927 --> 00:21:15,807
Speaker 1: because you've got a whole cohort of women who've said,

445
00:21:15,807 --> 00:21:19,047
Speaker 1: I feel really betrayed. This is not what I thought

446
00:21:19,087 --> 00:21:22,487
Speaker 1: Witchery was, and I feel that Witchery doesn't want me anymore,

447
00:21:22,527 --> 00:21:24,847
Speaker 1: and I feel betrayed, and I feel rejected because what

448
00:21:24,887 --> 00:21:27,367
Speaker 1: I thought Witchery was, Witchery is telling me it no

449
00:21:27,447 --> 00:21:30,967
Speaker 1: longer wants to be. And so that speaks a lot

450
00:21:31,007 --> 00:21:34,727
Speaker 1: to Witchery's position in the psyche for Australian women. But also,

451
00:21:35,007 --> 00:21:38,047
Speaker 1: you don't do a refresh like that unless you have

452
00:21:38,087 --> 00:21:40,847
Speaker 1: a problem, unless you are losing audience share, unless sales

453
00:21:40,847 --> 00:21:44,287
Speaker 1: are down, unless you need to change and get a

454
00:21:44,327 --> 00:21:48,247
Speaker 1: different and a bigger and a higher spending customer base.

455
00:21:48,327 --> 00:21:49,927
Speaker 1: Because a lot of the people that are saying I'm

456
00:21:49,927 --> 00:21:52,447
Speaker 1: really angry at Witchery, I'd be interested to know how

457
00:21:52,487 --> 00:21:54,927
Speaker 1: long since they've shot there, because I went through a

458
00:21:54,927 --> 00:21:57,527
Speaker 1: phase where I bought so much Witchery. I loved it.

459
00:21:57,927 --> 00:22:00,327
Speaker 1: But I've found myself really going off it over the

460
00:22:00,407 --> 00:22:02,287
Speaker 1: last few years because I kind of haven't known what

461
00:22:02,407 --> 00:22:05,727
Speaker 1: it is, Like it isn't country Road, but it isn't

462
00:22:06,047 --> 00:22:08,447
Speaker 1: Q but it isn't. Yeah, it's like I know what

463
00:22:08,487 --> 00:22:11,887
Speaker 1: cotton On is, I know what Zara is, I know

464
00:22:11,927 --> 00:22:14,687
Speaker 1: what country Road is, but I don't really know what

465
00:22:14,687 --> 00:22:17,047
Speaker 1: Witchery is anymore. And I used to. I even know

466
00:22:17,087 --> 00:22:18,887
Speaker 1: what Seed is, but I would argue that Seed is

467
00:22:18,927 --> 00:22:21,167
Speaker 1: another brand that's gone a little bit that way. So

468
00:22:21,207 --> 00:22:23,447
Speaker 1: they're sort of in that middle that's a bit of

469
00:22:23,447 --> 00:22:26,087
Speaker 1: a no man's land where they're not particularly cheap, they're

470
00:22:26,127 --> 00:22:28,807
Speaker 1: not particularly cool, they're not particularly fancy. Are they for

471
00:22:28,887 --> 00:22:30,687
Speaker 1: old people? They're not for young people, but they're not

472
00:22:30,687 --> 00:22:32,567
Speaker 1: really for old people. They're just a bit nothing. They

473
00:22:32,607 --> 00:22:36,207
Speaker 1: didn't they lost their brand personality, so they have followed

474
00:22:36,367 --> 00:22:38,767
Speaker 1: the path of dish. Dish has been around for decades,

475
00:22:38,807 --> 00:22:40,327
Speaker 1: but people have only started talking about it in the

476
00:22:40,367 --> 00:22:40,727
Speaker 1: last year.

477
00:22:40,727 --> 00:22:43,007
Speaker 4: I wrought it about twenty twenty when they launched the

478
00:22:43,007 --> 00:22:43,807
Speaker 4: Capsual wardrobe.

479
00:22:43,967 --> 00:22:46,167
Speaker 2: So you don't think they deliberately provoked to.

480
00:22:46,207 --> 00:22:51,247
Speaker 1: Find No, no, no, no, no no. It's never the conspiracy,

481
00:22:51,287 --> 00:22:53,487
Speaker 1: it's always the fuck up. So I think they were

482
00:22:53,607 --> 00:22:57,447
Speaker 1: naive in not perhaps seeing this coming. The other mistake

483
00:22:57,487 --> 00:23:01,367
Speaker 1: they made is in that first tranch of social media

484
00:23:01,407 --> 00:23:04,847
Speaker 1: content that they created, there were only straight sized, very

485
00:23:04,847 --> 00:23:07,727
Speaker 1: young women. And I think that's interesting what you found out, Jesse,

486
00:23:07,807 --> 00:23:10,487
Speaker 1: about the objective of the new range and the new

487
00:23:10,567 --> 00:23:13,527
Speaker 1: look for Witchery is forever thirty. So that was just

488
00:23:13,607 --> 00:23:16,767
Speaker 1: to me. But with my fashion, do I want to

489
00:23:16,767 --> 00:23:18,847
Speaker 1: look around thirty? I don't work with my face, but

490
00:23:18,927 --> 00:23:21,847
Speaker 1: with my fashion, yeah, maybe I don't want to look

491
00:23:21,847 --> 00:23:23,367
Speaker 1: fifty because the idea to.

492
00:23:23,247 --> 00:23:25,207
Speaker 2: Me, if don't I want to look twenty, well no,

493
00:23:25,247 --> 00:23:27,087
Speaker 2: I definitely don't want to look I don't know. I

494
00:23:27,127 --> 00:23:28,967
Speaker 2: don't want to look twenty. But if I'm twenty four,

495
00:23:29,007 --> 00:23:30,767
Speaker 2: don't I want to look twenty or thirty?

496
00:23:30,807 --> 00:23:33,647
Speaker 1: So that's what's interesting. So people always want to age

497
00:23:33,687 --> 00:23:36,687
Speaker 1: down or up. So for example, when I used to

498
00:23:36,687 --> 00:23:38,967
Speaker 1: do Cosmo, we used to pitch even though our average

499
00:23:39,007 --> 00:23:41,567
Speaker 1: reader was eighteen to twenty four. That was our sweet spot,

500
00:23:41,727 --> 00:23:44,327
Speaker 1: but we pitched at a twenty seven year old. And

501
00:23:44,407 --> 00:23:47,727
Speaker 1: so with fashion, you pitched down to attract an older.

502
00:23:47,807 --> 00:23:49,567
Speaker 1: So if they're pitching at thirty, I would say that

503
00:23:49,607 --> 00:23:51,927
Speaker 1: means their demographic is twenty five to forty five.

504
00:23:52,207 --> 00:23:54,967
Speaker 4: And look, I don't know much about fashion, but I

505
00:23:55,007 --> 00:23:57,967
Speaker 4: would think if the average woman is a size fourteen

506
00:23:58,007 --> 00:24:00,487
Speaker 4: to sixteen and she's looking at clothes, she wants to

507
00:24:00,527 --> 00:24:01,647
Speaker 4: know what they're gonna look like on her.

508
00:24:01,767 --> 00:24:02,407
Speaker 1: Absolutely.

509
00:24:02,447 --> 00:24:04,647
Speaker 4: And we had an article on Mama Maya buy a

510
00:24:04,647 --> 00:24:07,047
Speaker 4: Millia Morris. She is exactly that size and she went

511
00:24:07,047 --> 00:24:09,967
Speaker 4: into Witchery and tried it on and she went it

512
00:24:10,047 --> 00:24:11,887
Speaker 4: looked amazing, so good.

513
00:24:11,927 --> 00:24:14,247
Speaker 1: And she's a stylist. So I really love that story.

514
00:24:14,287 --> 00:24:16,207
Speaker 1: Instead of reading all the reaction.

515
00:24:15,967 --> 00:24:17,767
Speaker 4: To it, it's just like, he's what it actually looks

516
00:24:17,927 --> 00:24:18,207
Speaker 4: that we.

517
00:24:18,167 --> 00:24:19,127
Speaker 1: Sound like an ad for witchery.

518
00:24:19,127 --> 00:24:19,767
Speaker 3: We forget that.

519
00:24:19,807 --> 00:24:22,407
Speaker 1: But I know here to defend witchery or spook witchery.

520
00:24:22,767 --> 00:24:26,167
Speaker 2: As we've discussed today, there is an enormous section of

521
00:24:26,247 --> 00:24:28,807
Speaker 2: the female community in Australia who cannot walk into a

522
00:24:28,847 --> 00:24:30,327
Speaker 2: shop and find things that fit them.

523
00:24:30,567 --> 00:25:00,167
Speaker 3: And it hurts.

524
00:24:47,287 --> 00:24:48,247
Speaker 4: We're putting the house.

525
00:24:48,087 --> 00:24:52,047
Speaker 1: On the market. What about us. You're adults. It's time

526
00:24:52,087 --> 00:24:56,207
Speaker 1: you started acting like adults. Mom. It's taking children longer

527
00:24:56,247 --> 00:24:58,727
Speaker 1: to grow up and become adults. You may have noticed,

528
00:24:58,887 --> 00:25:01,327
Speaker 1: because most people think of parenting being something that you

529
00:25:01,407 --> 00:25:03,687
Speaker 1: do for little kids. But a piece in the Atlantic

530
00:25:03,727 --> 00:25:05,927
Speaker 1: this week has flagged that we are living in an

531
00:25:05,967 --> 00:25:11,127
Speaker 1: age of endless parenting. This hu to be called failure

532
00:25:11,207 --> 00:25:13,167
Speaker 1: to launch. There was even a movie by that name

533
00:25:13,207 --> 00:25:15,207
Speaker 1: about it, like a thirty year old who never moved

534
00:25:15,207 --> 00:25:18,327
Speaker 1: out of home, and it referred to this idea of

535
00:25:18,687 --> 00:25:21,007
Speaker 1: someone who didn't leave the nest and transition into that

536
00:25:21,087 --> 00:25:24,927
Speaker 1: next life phase where you are meant to separate from

537
00:25:24,927 --> 00:25:27,287
Speaker 1: your family of origin and perhaps go and start a

538
00:25:27,327 --> 00:25:30,567
Speaker 1: family of your own and certainly become more independent. But

539
00:25:30,647 --> 00:25:33,687
Speaker 1: it's no longer failure to launch now, it's just normal.

540
00:25:34,087 --> 00:25:35,007
Speaker 2: So forty five.

541
00:25:34,847 --> 00:25:38,127
Speaker 1: Percent of young adults aged eighteen to twenty nine reported

542
00:25:38,207 --> 00:25:41,007
Speaker 1: living with their parents in a new Pew survey, making

543
00:25:41,047 --> 00:25:43,407
Speaker 1: it the most common living arrangement for that age group

544
00:25:43,647 --> 00:25:46,687
Speaker 1: for the first time since just after the Great Depression.

545
00:25:47,767 --> 00:25:51,847
Speaker 1: Some people are freaked out by that number. I imagine Holly

546
00:25:51,847 --> 00:25:54,127
Speaker 1: would be one of them, and they say that it

547
00:25:54,287 --> 00:25:58,807
Speaker 1: is evidence of a mushrooming over dependence among a generation

548
00:25:58,967 --> 00:26:04,607
Speaker 1: of hapless grown babies and of caregivers parents who can't,

549
00:26:04,647 --> 00:26:09,127
Speaker 1: for God's sake stop giving care. Well, the helicopter generation, right, Yeah, but.

550
00:26:09,327 --> 00:26:11,327
Speaker 2: It's also impossible to look at that stat and I

551
00:26:11,367 --> 00:26:13,967
Speaker 2: also consider how expensive it is to move out of home. Right,

552
00:26:14,047 --> 00:26:18,207
Speaker 2: So that's true. There are a number of factors coinciding

553
00:26:18,607 --> 00:26:19,807
Speaker 2: to make that the reality.

554
00:26:19,887 --> 00:26:21,927
Speaker 1: Yes, But in terms of whether we should have an

555
00:26:21,927 --> 00:26:25,167
Speaker 1: existential panic about the fact that more people are in

556
00:26:25,527 --> 00:26:29,967
Speaker 1: more regular contact with their grown children than used to

557
00:26:29,967 --> 00:26:33,447
Speaker 1: be the case, there's another angle in this story in

558
00:26:33,447 --> 00:26:35,887
Speaker 1: The Atlantic that was written by Faith Hill, not the singer.

559
00:26:36,367 --> 00:26:39,887
Speaker 1: She said, today's average parent child bond does seem to

560
00:26:39,927 --> 00:26:43,607
Speaker 1: involve near constant communication. Yet it also comes with an

561
00:26:43,607 --> 00:26:48,087
Speaker 1: intensified emotional closeness of the kind once reserved for friends

562
00:26:48,087 --> 00:26:50,887
Speaker 1: and romantic partners. So it's almost like the takeaway of

563
00:26:50,927 --> 00:26:54,007
Speaker 1: this are our parents the new friends.

564
00:26:55,007 --> 00:26:58,567
Speaker 4: So this was very evident in a film that you

565
00:26:58,727 --> 00:27:02,367
Speaker 4: both made me watch last night, which I'm really pissed

566
00:27:02,367 --> 00:27:02,727
Speaker 4: off about.

567
00:27:02,807 --> 00:27:04,327
Speaker 2: We're going to make you talk about it too in

568
00:27:04,327 --> 00:27:05,527
Speaker 2: a minute tomorrow.

569
00:27:05,567 --> 00:27:07,847
Speaker 4: We're doing a subscriber episode on it, A Family Affair

570
00:27:08,047 --> 00:27:10,927
Speaker 4: for any out louder who watched it. I know lots

571
00:27:10,927 --> 00:27:12,927
Speaker 4: of people have been posting in the Facebook grip about it.

572
00:27:13,567 --> 00:27:15,447
Speaker 4: You don't need to have watched it to kind of

573
00:27:15,527 --> 00:27:18,127
Speaker 4: understand the dynamic, which is that you've got Nicole Kidman,

574
00:27:18,207 --> 00:27:19,927
Speaker 4: who's a woman. What do you think she's meant to

575
00:27:19,927 --> 00:27:22,967
Speaker 4: be fifty early early fifties. She has a daughter who's

576
00:27:23,007 --> 00:27:27,167
Speaker 4: twenty four, and she is sort of pursuing this romantic

577
00:27:27,207 --> 00:27:31,967
Speaker 4: interest and her daughter is horrified and disgusted and angry.

578
00:27:32,327 --> 00:27:35,087
Speaker 4: And it's this tension between being a good mother and

579
00:27:35,487 --> 00:27:37,887
Speaker 4: dating someone that you like. Right, what was he like

580
00:27:37,927 --> 00:27:39,287
Speaker 4: twenty years longer than you?

581
00:27:39,407 --> 00:27:40,447
Speaker 1: Sixteen? Oh?

582
00:27:41,127 --> 00:27:43,727
Speaker 6: Pardon me, I thought you're wor smarter than this mom?

583
00:27:44,007 --> 00:27:46,287
Speaker 4: To fuck with this love bombing bullshit.

584
00:27:46,327 --> 00:27:48,087
Speaker 1: I mean, you don't care how I feel about this.

585
00:27:48,487 --> 00:27:50,367
Speaker 4: And I was watching it. I know there's a lot

586
00:27:50,367 --> 00:27:53,447
Speaker 4: of angles out of that movie, but thinking, maye, you're

587
00:27:53,447 --> 00:27:57,487
Speaker 4: twenty four, like get out of your parents' house. The

588
00:27:57,567 --> 00:28:00,087
Speaker 4: idea was always have heard women say I'll wait till

589
00:28:00,087 --> 00:28:02,087
Speaker 4: my kids leave school and then I'll think about dating.

590
00:28:02,407 --> 00:28:05,207
Speaker 4: But now because their kids never move out, it's like

591
00:28:05,447 --> 00:28:06,167
Speaker 4: you've got.

592
00:28:06,167 --> 00:28:07,927
Speaker 1: Or getting a divorce. That used to be the thing,

593
00:28:07,967 --> 00:28:09,967
Speaker 1: like we just stay together until the kids have finished

594
00:28:09,967 --> 00:28:10,767
Speaker 1: school and left home.

595
00:28:10,887 --> 00:28:12,807
Speaker 4: So you just put it off and off and off

596
00:28:13,487 --> 00:28:15,647
Speaker 4: until it's like you've got a twenty four year old

597
00:28:15,727 --> 00:28:18,607
Speaker 4: daughter who still has emotional needs and you can't have

598
00:28:18,647 --> 00:28:19,407
Speaker 4: a relationship.

599
00:28:19,647 --> 00:28:22,127
Speaker 2: This is what it made me wonder, right because basically

600
00:28:22,127 --> 00:28:23,407
Speaker 2: there's a bit in this and I wrote it down

601
00:28:23,407 --> 00:28:24,767
Speaker 2: because I wanted to ask me how what she thought.

602
00:28:25,487 --> 00:28:28,527
Speaker 2: Basically in the movie, the daughter is asking her mum

603
00:28:28,647 --> 00:28:30,967
Speaker 2: or telling her mom that please do not date this

604
00:28:31,047 --> 00:28:32,767
Speaker 2: man for a lot of reasons that you don't need

605
00:28:32,807 --> 00:28:35,367
Speaker 2: to worry about here, but do not date this man.

606
00:28:35,567 --> 00:28:38,447
Speaker 2: And the conundrum that is posed here is, as a

607
00:28:38,447 --> 00:28:40,967
Speaker 2: good mother, do you date this man even though your

608
00:28:41,007 --> 00:28:43,367
Speaker 2: adult daughter really doesn't want you to. And what it

609
00:28:43,407 --> 00:28:47,327
Speaker 2: made me think is does the endless parenting which we've

610
00:28:47,367 --> 00:28:50,087
Speaker 2: just said caused by all these things mean that once

611
00:28:50,127 --> 00:28:53,087
Speaker 2: you become a parent, once you have a child, every

612
00:28:53,167 --> 00:28:56,687
Speaker 2: single choice you make from now on, not for five years,

613
00:28:56,687 --> 00:29:00,367
Speaker 2: not for ten, not for twenty, but forever, have to

614
00:29:00,527 --> 00:29:05,327
Speaker 2: center that person as the number one decision making factor

615
00:29:05,687 --> 00:29:09,447
Speaker 2: forevermore so, whether that's who you date, what job you take,

616
00:29:09,767 --> 00:29:11,807
Speaker 2: where you choose to live, maybe you choose to move

617
00:29:11,847 --> 00:29:13,527
Speaker 2: away from them even though they'd like you to be

618
00:29:13,527 --> 00:29:16,047
Speaker 2: the nanny for their kid all the time, whether that's

619
00:29:16,567 --> 00:29:18,847
Speaker 2: spending your money rather than saving it, or giving it

620
00:29:18,887 --> 00:29:20,487
Speaker 2: to them to buy a house, Like any of the

621
00:29:20,527 --> 00:29:23,847
Speaker 2: decisions you make about your life, they should be the

622
00:29:23,967 --> 00:29:27,127
Speaker 2: number one factor what I think. Do you think that's true?

623
00:29:27,207 --> 00:29:31,207
Speaker 1: That's not how I read this, and that's being resected. No,

624
00:29:31,367 --> 00:29:34,447
Speaker 1: that was not my takeaway from this idea that parents

625
00:29:34,487 --> 00:29:37,407
Speaker 1: are the new friends, because in a friendship, it's not

626
00:29:37,447 --> 00:29:41,007
Speaker 1: a parent child relationship, right, you become kind of equals.

627
00:29:41,327 --> 00:29:44,567
Speaker 1: So Jesse and I are really good examples of, you know,

628
00:29:44,647 --> 00:29:48,247
Speaker 1: both even before our families became connected. The kinds of

629
00:29:48,287 --> 00:29:52,287
Speaker 1: relationships we have with our parents, and for me with

630
00:29:52,407 --> 00:29:55,607
Speaker 1: my growing up and grown up children is much more

631
00:29:55,607 --> 00:29:59,847
Speaker 1: ameshed than perhaps of different generations and in your experience,

632
00:29:59,887 --> 00:30:02,807
Speaker 1: and not everyone is like that now. But it's not

633
00:30:03,047 --> 00:30:07,127
Speaker 1: about you always stay in that parent child dynamic, which

634
00:30:07,167 --> 00:30:09,767
Speaker 1: is what that movie was, a real parent child dynamic

635
00:30:09,767 --> 00:30:12,127
Speaker 1: where the child was just not she was being a dick.

636
00:30:12,487 --> 00:30:14,727
Speaker 2: But we all know people right who their kids have said,

637
00:30:14,767 --> 00:30:17,407
Speaker 2: don't do that thing. Yeah, why you're making well call.

638
00:30:17,447 --> 00:30:19,407
Speaker 1: As faith Hill wrote, she said, this doesn't mean that

639
00:30:19,447 --> 00:30:21,847
Speaker 1: adult kids are failing to launch or that their parents

640
00:30:21,887 --> 00:30:25,967
Speaker 1: are suffering. Rather, the way our society understands child rearing

641
00:30:26,087 --> 00:30:29,047
Speaker 1: is evolving. The assignment, which was once to raise an

642
00:30:29,087 --> 00:30:31,927
Speaker 1: independent child and set them off into the world, is

643
00:30:32,007 --> 00:30:36,207
Speaker 1: now to foster a deep, lasting relationship with them as friends.

644
00:30:36,727 --> 00:30:38,967
Speaker 1: So it's not like, right, it's a fixed period of time.

645
00:30:39,167 --> 00:30:41,887
Speaker 1: Then you go off into the world and we not

646
00:30:41,927 --> 00:30:44,567
Speaker 1: go our separate ways, but we have a different relationship. Now.

647
00:30:44,567 --> 00:30:47,527
Speaker 1: It's like, well, once you grow up, we will transition

648
00:30:48,127 --> 00:30:51,447
Speaker 1: into being friends and we will stay close and talk

649
00:30:51,527 --> 00:30:53,487
Speaker 1: all the time in the same way that romantic partners

650
00:30:53,767 --> 00:30:54,487
Speaker 1: or friends would.

651
00:30:54,567 --> 00:30:57,927
Speaker 4: I reckon that's Pollyanna, though, because a family affair as

652
00:30:57,967 --> 00:31:01,247
Speaker 4: well as what zi Anne Hathaway the Idler review I

653
00:31:01,247 --> 00:31:03,847
Speaker 4: dea review. Right, So there's two films very similar in

654
00:31:03,887 --> 00:31:05,607
Speaker 4: a very short period of time. So they're trying to

655
00:31:05,607 --> 00:31:09,527
Speaker 4: tell us something. Both women in this similar ages had

656
00:31:09,607 --> 00:31:12,367
Speaker 4: adult daughters living at home, and the dynamic at the

657
00:31:12,407 --> 00:31:14,567
Speaker 4: beginning of the films was that they were just make

658
00:31:14,887 --> 00:31:17,287
Speaker 4: they were friends, and they were talking about work and

659
00:31:17,487 --> 00:31:20,647
Speaker 4: life and quite equal equal partnership.

660
00:31:20,767 --> 00:31:22,767
Speaker 1: Well, in the idea of you, even though she looked

661
00:31:22,807 --> 00:31:24,847
Speaker 1: like she was about twenty five, she was meant to

662
00:31:24,847 --> 00:31:26,967
Speaker 1: be a teenager because remember she went to summer camp,

663
00:31:27,127 --> 00:31:28,567
Speaker 1: so she was still in high school.

664
00:31:28,607 --> 00:31:30,367
Speaker 4: She went to college at the end, so there was

665
00:31:30,367 --> 00:31:33,767
Speaker 4: something she was kind of getting into adulthood. But then

666
00:31:34,127 --> 00:31:38,327
Speaker 4: there was a cornerstone moment in both films where the

667
00:31:38,487 --> 00:31:42,687
Speaker 4: parent relationship was kind of takes takes priority.

668
00:31:43,407 --> 00:31:46,007
Speaker 1: The children demanded that of their mother. Well the girls did.

669
00:31:46,127 --> 00:31:48,047
Speaker 4: Yes, And so I think that what they were also

670
00:31:48,127 --> 00:31:51,047
Speaker 4: trying to say, or what these films are trying to

671
00:31:51,127 --> 00:31:57,487
Speaker 4: interrogate or look at culturally, is whether desire can coexist

672
00:31:57,567 --> 00:32:00,967
Speaker 4: with motherhood and the idea that it can is revolutionary,

673
00:32:01,767 --> 00:32:06,127
Speaker 4: but it can only coexist if you are given permission

674
00:32:06,687 --> 00:32:12,087
Speaker 4: from the child, which is this really kind of sick codependency.

675
00:32:12,367 --> 00:32:15,487
Speaker 2: And also I find it really interesting that idea that

676
00:32:15,927 --> 00:32:20,487
Speaker 2: even once they're adults, you have to prioritize their needs, Like,

677
00:32:20,527 --> 00:32:21,687
Speaker 2: I find that really interesting.

678
00:32:22,007 --> 00:32:25,167
Speaker 4: And in fact, because I was thinking with a family affair, right,

679
00:32:25,807 --> 00:32:28,087
Speaker 4: I was thinking about the child parent relationship and then

680
00:32:28,087 --> 00:32:32,487
Speaker 4: I went there were moments in that where in fact

681
00:32:32,527 --> 00:32:34,847
Speaker 4: the child was parenting the mother. A lot of her

682
00:32:34,887 --> 00:32:36,687
Speaker 4: concerns were like, oh, but you're going to get hurt,

683
00:32:36,727 --> 00:32:39,007
Speaker 4: You're going to get and I keep coming across this

684
00:32:39,047 --> 00:32:42,007
Speaker 4: word it's sort of therapy speak, but it's parentification. You

685
00:32:42,127 --> 00:32:44,927
Speaker 4: had a miss and it occurs when parents look to

686
00:32:44,967 --> 00:32:49,047
Speaker 4: their children for emotional or practical support rather than providing it.

687
00:32:49,727 --> 00:32:52,327
Speaker 4: And I think there are a lot of people who

688
00:32:52,407 --> 00:32:56,007
Speaker 4: with their enmeshment with their parents, often experience this either

689
00:32:56,047 --> 00:32:58,767
Speaker 4: with one or with both, where they're living together and

690
00:32:58,807 --> 00:33:01,647
Speaker 4: they feel like the roles have been reversed, where suddenly

691
00:33:02,367 --> 00:33:07,287
Speaker 4: the parent child dynamic exists. But it can invert, but

692
00:33:07,327 --> 00:33:08,287
Speaker 4: it should.

693
00:33:08,047 --> 00:33:10,007
Speaker 1: Invert if you look, but it follow it to its

694
00:33:10,087 --> 00:33:13,447
Speaker 1: natural conclusion. We will be looking after our aging parents

695
00:33:13,487 --> 00:33:16,807
Speaker 1: if they're thankfully lived to a ripe old age. It

696
00:33:16,887 --> 00:33:20,647
Speaker 1: does invert, and in its extreme forms people talk about

697
00:33:20,727 --> 00:33:23,727
Speaker 1: changing their parents' nappies at the end of life. That's

698
00:33:23,767 --> 00:33:25,527
Speaker 1: in its extreme form. The way I see this is

699
00:33:25,567 --> 00:33:27,327
Speaker 1: the onness isn't just on the parent to parent forever,

700
00:33:27,367 --> 00:33:28,847
Speaker 1: because I agree with you that sounds like a very

701
00:33:28,847 --> 00:33:32,207
Speaker 1: bad deal, and be selfless and not be an actualized person.

702
00:33:32,287 --> 00:33:35,927
Speaker 1: The onus is also on the young adult to stop

703
00:33:35,967 --> 00:33:40,087
Speaker 1: seeing their parent as mummy and daddy and start seeing

704
00:33:40,087 --> 00:33:42,207
Speaker 1: them as a woman or a man who has their

705
00:33:42,247 --> 00:33:45,287
Speaker 1: own wants, needs, flaws, flaws.

706
00:33:45,527 --> 00:33:48,287
Speaker 2: I think that's trickier than it's ever been right because

707
00:33:48,447 --> 00:33:50,847
Speaker 2: of what we've done to parenting over the past couple

708
00:33:50,887 --> 00:33:53,727
Speaker 2: of generations, which is the model for motherhood. Even as

709
00:33:53,767 --> 00:33:56,207
Speaker 2: women's lives have become more crowded and more demanding with

710
00:33:56,327 --> 00:34:00,567
Speaker 2: outside the house work and all those responsibilities, a model

711
00:34:00,567 --> 00:34:05,567
Speaker 2: of motherhood is still this all consuming, self sacrificing thing.

712
00:34:05,727 --> 00:34:09,487
Speaker 2: The kind of ideal mummy on the Instagram is she's

713
00:34:09,487 --> 00:34:11,567
Speaker 2: only ever thinking of her baby, and she's only ever

714
00:34:11,847 --> 00:34:15,447
Speaker 2: making amazing food for them from the you know, virgin

715
00:34:15,567 --> 00:34:19,047
Speaker 2: organic pumpkins from wherever, you know, Like it's that model,

716
00:34:19,807 --> 00:34:23,567
Speaker 2: and so we've made that the model of parenting that

717
00:34:23,607 --> 00:34:26,247
Speaker 2: we like, and then we also seem to be extending

718
00:34:26,287 --> 00:34:28,287
Speaker 2: the amount of time you're supposed to do it for

719
00:34:28,887 --> 00:34:31,247
Speaker 2: I remember very clearly when I was young that the

720
00:34:31,327 --> 00:34:34,007
Speaker 2: sort of typical gen X parenting that I got well

721
00:34:34,047 --> 00:34:36,487
Speaker 2: as in from the boomers, but I'm gen X, was

722
00:34:36,527 --> 00:34:39,647
Speaker 2: that sort of they call it benign neglect, which I'm

723
00:34:39,687 --> 00:34:42,407
Speaker 2: fine with, Like that was fine for me. But I

724
00:34:42,607 --> 00:34:45,287
Speaker 2: was very aware alway is that my parents were people.

725
00:34:45,487 --> 00:34:48,767
Speaker 2: They had interests outside the home. They had jobs and

726
00:34:48,887 --> 00:34:52,527
Speaker 2: friends and lives and interests and things they wanted to

727
00:34:52,527 --> 00:34:56,407
Speaker 2: do that weren't really about me and my brother and personally,

728
00:34:56,807 --> 00:34:59,767
Speaker 2: and I know you can't generalize, but that's okay. And

729
00:34:59,887 --> 00:35:02,927
Speaker 2: I try and model that to my kids. Right It's like,

730
00:35:02,967 --> 00:35:04,967
Speaker 2: I love you to bits the center of my world,

731
00:35:05,007 --> 00:35:08,767
Speaker 2: blah blah. But I'm a human and Dad is a human,

732
00:35:09,047 --> 00:35:11,327
Speaker 2: and we also have needs too, and we also have

733
00:35:11,647 --> 00:35:13,727
Speaker 2: things we want to achieve and all those things. So

734
00:35:13,807 --> 00:35:17,447
Speaker 2: I think it's become harder than ever for kids who

735
00:35:17,487 --> 00:35:20,527
Speaker 2: were moving into that early adult phase to start seeing

736
00:35:20,567 --> 00:35:23,447
Speaker 2: their parents are separate from themselves, because we've pushed that

737
00:35:23,527 --> 00:35:26,807
Speaker 2: and meshment, and we've also pushed the job of parenting

738
00:35:26,927 --> 00:35:29,007
Speaker 2: into this all encompassing existence.

739
00:35:29,287 --> 00:35:31,807
Speaker 1: I think also what I've always noticed as my children

740
00:35:31,847 --> 00:35:35,247
Speaker 1: have grown up is that helicopter parenting, of which I

741
00:35:35,287 --> 00:35:38,007
Speaker 1: am very much a helicopter parent because Gen X's are

742
00:35:38,007 --> 00:35:41,567
Speaker 1: the first generation to have got that memo in the hospital,

743
00:35:41,607 --> 00:35:43,887
Speaker 1: Hey make sure nothing bad ever happens to this child.

744
00:35:43,887 --> 00:35:46,727
Speaker 1: Their self esteem and their lack of having a negative

745
00:35:46,767 --> 00:35:51,527
Speaker 1: emotion is your performance review. Helicopter parents make helicopter children.

746
00:35:52,047 --> 00:35:55,087
Speaker 1: So when you sort of go, right, okay, off you go,

747
00:35:55,247 --> 00:35:58,127
Speaker 1: and when you throw COVID into that as well, when

748
00:35:58,127 --> 00:36:00,767
Speaker 1: they couldn't leave the house, then suddenly the cage doors

749
00:36:00,767 --> 00:36:03,207
Speaker 1: were thrown open, and the kids didn't want to go

750
00:36:03,287 --> 00:36:07,887
Speaker 1: outside because they'd been inside for so long and they'd

751
00:36:07,927 --> 00:36:09,967
Speaker 1: almost depending on what age they are, they sort of

752
00:36:09,967 --> 00:36:12,287
Speaker 1: missed that stage of their development. So it's hard to

753
00:36:12,287 --> 00:36:15,887
Speaker 1: sort of helicopter, helicopter, helicopter and then just go right, well,

754
00:36:15,927 --> 00:36:18,567
Speaker 1: you're eighteen, I'm landing the helicopter. You're on your own bye,

755
00:36:19,047 --> 00:36:21,127
Speaker 1: because they're like, wait what. I don't know.

756
00:36:21,447 --> 00:36:23,127
Speaker 2: When I was growing up, I had a friend whose

757
00:36:23,127 --> 00:36:25,207
Speaker 2: family you had to move our eighteen the on your

758
00:36:25,207 --> 00:36:27,487
Speaker 2: eighteenth birthday, you had to move out that with that,

759
00:36:28,007 --> 00:36:30,807
Speaker 2: we all used to be kind of incredulous at that,

760
00:36:30,887 --> 00:36:33,127
Speaker 2: but also there was a lot of grudging respect for it.

761
00:36:33,207 --> 00:36:34,607
Speaker 2: And I was sent to bread the other day.

762
00:36:34,607 --> 00:36:35,447
Speaker 3: Can we implement that?

763
00:36:35,847 --> 00:36:38,167
Speaker 2: I don't know that we can because times have changed,

764
00:36:38,207 --> 00:36:40,887
Speaker 2: things are expensive, But twenty one, surely, come on out

765
00:36:40,887 --> 00:36:41,607
Speaker 2: of the fucking house.

766
00:36:41,687 --> 00:36:43,927
Speaker 1: Colie. You'll just move to a different state. I know you.

767
00:36:44,007 --> 00:36:46,487
Speaker 2: I definitely will, and I won't tell them where.

768
00:36:47,247 --> 00:36:49,767
Speaker 1: No forwarding address. I love you, but it's time for

769
00:36:49,807 --> 00:36:52,087
Speaker 1: you to go, and if you don't, I will.

770
00:36:55,047 --> 00:36:58,327
Speaker 4: Every Tuesday and Thursday we drop new segments of Mummy

771
00:36:58,287 --> 00:37:01,647
Speaker 4: are out Loud just for Mummy A subscribers follow the

772
00:37:01,687 --> 00:37:03,727
Speaker 4: link in the show notes to get your daily dose

773
00:37:03,767 --> 00:37:06,047
Speaker 4: of out Loud and a big thank you to all

774
00:37:06,167 --> 00:37:07,727
Speaker 4: our current subscribers.

775
00:37:14,647 --> 00:37:17,647
Speaker 2: Can someone please tell Sarah that all her friends hate her?

776
00:37:18,167 --> 00:37:21,647
Speaker 2: People are posting strangers bitch sessions on TikTok, and Sarah

777
00:37:21,807 --> 00:37:25,127
Speaker 2: is a good example. Stranger gossip is a thing. So

778
00:37:25,247 --> 00:37:27,567
Speaker 2: let's say that a woman films a group of women

779
00:37:27,647 --> 00:37:29,247
Speaker 2: she doesn't know bitching about Sarah.

780
00:37:29,247 --> 00:37:29,847
Speaker 3: Maybe you're in.

781
00:37:29,767 --> 00:37:32,247
Speaker 2: A queue at the coffee shop, or you're in the

782
00:37:32,367 --> 00:37:34,687
Speaker 2: park eating your sandwich or whatever. There's a group of

783
00:37:34,687 --> 00:37:40,247
Speaker 2: women nearby and they're bitching about Sarah. You surreptitiously film them.

784
00:37:40,567 --> 00:37:44,127
Speaker 2: You post that video, and you say, look at these

785
00:37:44,127 --> 00:37:47,087
Speaker 2: bitches bitching about Sarah. If anyone knows Sarah, they should

786
00:37:47,087 --> 00:37:52,007
Speaker 2: tell her. Right. The arching assumption about this trend is

787
00:37:52,047 --> 00:37:53,807
Speaker 2: a stop the Internet. I want to get off because

788
00:37:53,927 --> 00:37:58,367
Speaker 2: fu and b all gossiping is a bad thing, right,

789
00:37:58,527 --> 00:38:01,167
Speaker 2: Having a little vent about someone in your life is

790
00:38:01,407 --> 00:38:05,367
Speaker 2: bad and dirty and it needs to be exposed immediately,

791
00:38:05,407 --> 00:38:07,927
Speaker 2: and you need to be called out. Jesse, you love

792
00:38:07,967 --> 00:38:12,247
Speaker 2: a gossip? I do, please defend the women coming for Sarah.

793
00:38:12,327 --> 00:38:17,167
Speaker 4: I'm going to defend gossiping and defend the people bitching

794
00:38:17,167 --> 00:38:21,527
Speaker 4: about Sarah. Firstly, Sarah might in fact probably deserves it.

795
00:38:22,367 --> 00:38:24,127
Speaker 1: I don't know, objectively annoying.

796
00:38:24,327 --> 00:38:28,007
Speaker 4: I think's bitch, And in fact I would like to

797
00:38:28,127 --> 00:38:30,527
Speaker 4: know why Sarah's a bitch, and I could probably get involved.

798
00:38:30,567 --> 00:38:32,687
Speaker 4: I don't know her, but like I have an opinion.

799
00:38:32,567 --> 00:38:35,127
Speaker 2: Sarah tries too hard. Yes, Sarah follows your x on

800
00:38:35,167 --> 00:38:38,167
Speaker 2: Instagram exactly, Sarah got that job you wanted. Sarah's got

801
00:38:38,207 --> 00:38:39,167
Speaker 2: terrible tasting shoes.

802
00:38:39,327 --> 00:38:41,207
Speaker 1: To me, this is like wiki leaks. There are some

803
00:38:41,287 --> 00:38:44,047
Speaker 1: things that need to be secret, and you don't need

804
00:38:44,087 --> 00:38:47,407
Speaker 1: them spread all over the Internet for the society to

805
00:38:47,447 --> 00:38:50,247
Speaker 1: function and then not to be anarchy in the streets

806
00:38:50,287 --> 00:38:53,407
Speaker 1: and in our group chats, we need some privacy to

807
00:38:53,527 --> 00:38:54,807
Speaker 1: talk about people.

808
00:38:55,007 --> 00:38:59,127
Speaker 4: And talking about people is so important to social cohesion, Yes,

809
00:38:59,207 --> 00:39:03,887
Speaker 4: and a thriving democracy. For the person spoken about Holly,

810
00:39:04,127 --> 00:39:07,447
Speaker 4: and they won't know if this bitch isn't recording it.

811
00:39:07,447 --> 00:39:10,407
Speaker 1: It's called TikTok tattle tale. I don't like it, and

812
00:39:10,447 --> 00:39:12,887
Speaker 1: the Internet's full of it. It's very upsetting. I don't

813
00:39:12,967 --> 00:39:15,687
Speaker 1: like it because I also am like there's a real person.

814
00:39:15,887 --> 00:39:18,487
Speaker 1: The people who are doing this and exposing these conversations

815
00:39:18,487 --> 00:39:21,687
Speaker 1: and sharing them act as though they're these vigilantes that

816
00:39:21,727 --> 00:39:23,207
Speaker 1: are helping Sarah.

817
00:39:23,407 --> 00:39:25,007
Speaker 2: How Sarah gon to feel.

818
00:39:24,727 --> 00:39:27,447
Speaker 4: They're ruining Sarah's day. That doesn't make you know.

819
00:39:27,447 --> 00:39:30,047
Speaker 1: That my friendship, You're only going to upset Sarah.

820
00:39:30,287 --> 00:39:33,687
Speaker 4: And the thing about gossiping is that when you are

821
00:39:33,767 --> 00:39:36,967
Speaker 4: talking to your friends about something that's occurred, or you're

822
00:39:37,007 --> 00:39:41,727
Speaker 4: prosecuting a dilemma you've had, what you're really doing is

823
00:39:41,767 --> 00:39:45,247
Speaker 4: you're talking about morals and ethics and trying to understand

824
00:39:45,247 --> 00:39:48,247
Speaker 4: the world around you. It's also a bid for connection.

825
00:39:48,367 --> 00:39:50,007
Speaker 4: We've talked about bids off.

826
00:39:50,047 --> 00:39:50,647
Speaker 2: It's a pebble.

827
00:39:50,847 --> 00:39:54,087
Speaker 1: It's a pebble exactly as a bid for connection where we're.

828
00:39:53,927 --> 00:39:56,967
Speaker 2: Trying to go Sarah, I hate Sarah, let's connect.

829
00:39:57,047 --> 00:40:00,567
Speaker 4: Yes, you're also going I trust you enough to tell

830
00:40:00,607 --> 00:40:03,807
Speaker 4: you I hate Sarah. So this is about trust, it's

831
00:40:03,847 --> 00:40:08,047
Speaker 4: about venting, it's about taking off a certain amount of baggage. Look,

832
00:40:08,087 --> 00:40:10,807
Speaker 4: it's not always is good, but it's how a lot

833
00:40:10,847 --> 00:40:12,167
Speaker 4: of connections.

834
00:40:12,447 --> 00:40:16,007
Speaker 2: Question can I ask a question right? And I know

835
00:40:16,087 --> 00:40:18,967
Speaker 2: I'm playing Pollyanna in this situation, when you have sat

836
00:40:19,047 --> 00:40:22,247
Speaker 2: down with your friend's sister, workmates, whatever, and had a

837
00:40:22,287 --> 00:40:26,247
Speaker 2: really good bitch about somebody, like, you've just sledged them. Me,

838
00:40:26,967 --> 00:40:28,607
Speaker 2: you've just sledged them for twenty minutes.

839
00:40:28,687 --> 00:40:28,847
Speaker 4: Yeah.

840
00:40:29,127 --> 00:40:30,967
Speaker 2: Do you walk out of that room feeling good? Or

841
00:40:30,967 --> 00:40:32,207
Speaker 2: do you walk out of that room feeling like you

842
00:40:32,247 --> 00:40:32,807
Speaker 2: need a shower?

843
00:40:33,127 --> 00:40:36,127
Speaker 1: Yes, that's how I feel. I need, whether it's in

844
00:40:36,127 --> 00:40:40,567
Speaker 1: the room, or it's in a group, or in a shower. Shower, shower, absolutely, shower.

845
00:40:40,727 --> 00:40:42,607
Speaker 4: So I was reading this article on The Guardian recently

846
00:40:42,607 --> 00:40:45,287
Speaker 4: about different types of friendships. Right, You've got the common

847
00:40:45,407 --> 00:40:47,927
Speaker 4: enemy friend, which means that you bonded over a shared

848
00:40:47,927 --> 00:40:49,087
Speaker 4: hatred of someone.

849
00:40:48,887 --> 00:40:50,567
Speaker 2: Or something that's very often at work.

850
00:40:50,767 --> 00:40:50,967
Speaker 3: Yep.

851
00:40:51,247 --> 00:40:53,767
Speaker 4: Now, whenever that person annoys you, you go, I'm going

852
00:40:53,847 --> 00:40:55,607
Speaker 4: to go to them because that's our connection. Right. And

853
00:40:55,647 --> 00:40:58,287
Speaker 4: there's also another type of friend called the resting bitch friend,

854
00:40:58,607 --> 00:41:00,687
Speaker 4: and they're harsher than you. I have a friend like this,

855
00:41:00,967 --> 00:41:03,127
Speaker 4: She's harsher than me. So when you need to get

856
00:41:03,167 --> 00:41:05,167
Speaker 4: something out that's mean spirited and bitchy, you go to

857
00:41:05,247 --> 00:41:08,007
Speaker 4: them and they take it one step further and you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah,

858
00:41:08,087 --> 00:41:11,047
Speaker 4: Now the common enemy friend in defense. I have a

859
00:41:11,047 --> 00:41:12,847
Speaker 4: friend at the moment that's not very well. She's going

860
00:41:12,847 --> 00:41:15,007
Speaker 4: through a very very hard time. We have a common enemy,

861
00:41:15,687 --> 00:41:17,887
Speaker 4: and when she's having a bad day, you chair her

862
00:41:18,007 --> 00:41:21,047
Speaker 4: up with I'm chair her up with a little.

863
00:41:20,847 --> 00:41:25,167
Speaker 1: Bit of a chat about that common enemy. Yes, yeah, distraction.

864
00:41:25,487 --> 00:41:27,287
Speaker 4: It's just a bit of distraction. It's a bit of

865
00:41:27,327 --> 00:41:31,047
Speaker 4: a connection, it is. And again it's going I'm just

866
00:41:31,087 --> 00:41:33,407
Speaker 4: going to test my reality here, because what this person

867
00:41:33,407 --> 00:41:37,367
Speaker 4: we're talking about is doing seems bizarre, seems unethical, seems mean,

868
00:41:37,447 --> 00:41:40,567
Speaker 4: seems whatever. And you and I connecting over that is

869
00:41:40,647 --> 00:41:45,407
Speaker 4: just giving you a second to not think about existential shit.

870
00:41:45,767 --> 00:41:49,167
Speaker 4: It seems like I am going to I'm.

871
00:41:49,007 --> 00:41:51,807
Speaker 1: Going to say two things about this quickly. Firstly, I

872
00:41:51,887 --> 00:41:54,327
Speaker 1: do that too, but for a different reason. You know

873
00:41:54,367 --> 00:41:57,887
Speaker 1: that Reddit thread am I the Asshole? I'll often do

874
00:41:57,967 --> 00:42:00,567
Speaker 1: it as a reality check where I will go and

875
00:42:00,647 --> 00:42:03,247
Speaker 1: I will need to see how I feel about something

876
00:42:03,287 --> 00:42:06,767
Speaker 1: mirrored back by someone else who will meet my intensity

877
00:42:07,007 --> 00:42:09,807
Speaker 1: of irritation, frustration, loathing.

878
00:42:10,607 --> 00:42:12,567
Speaker 4: But am I the asshole? Is always really funny, right,

879
00:42:12,607 --> 00:42:14,407
Speaker 4: because you would only have asked that question if you

880
00:42:14,407 --> 00:42:16,687
Speaker 4: don't think you're being the asshole, If you come to me,

881
00:42:16,727 --> 00:42:19,247
Speaker 4: and God, am I being the asshole? This person is

882
00:42:19,247 --> 00:42:20,007
Speaker 4: a total.

883
00:42:19,727 --> 00:42:23,207
Speaker 1: Bitch and put so you're looking for people to go

884
00:42:23,927 --> 00:42:26,487
Speaker 1: no validation, So I'm looking for validation. The second thing

885
00:42:26,527 --> 00:42:28,327
Speaker 1: I'm going to say about this is that I have

886
00:42:28,887 --> 00:42:32,367
Speaker 1: had a very clarifying experience many years ago where I

887
00:42:32,527 --> 00:42:35,567
Speaker 1: was having a bitch with a mutual friend about someone

888
00:42:35,567 --> 00:42:40,607
Speaker 1: else and my phone accidentally rang them.

889
00:42:39,167 --> 00:42:45,047
Speaker 4: And they heard it, and that's actually my worst night.

890
00:42:45,447 --> 00:42:48,487
Speaker 1: And it also sounded worse than it actually was, Like

891
00:42:48,527 --> 00:42:51,647
Speaker 1: I am the part of the conversation, well it did.

892
00:42:51,927 --> 00:42:55,327
Speaker 1: The part of the conversation they heard sounded worse than

893
00:42:55,367 --> 00:42:59,887
Speaker 1: the whole context of the conversation. Anyway, our friendship managed

894
00:42:59,927 --> 00:43:02,487
Speaker 1: to survive, and it was touch and go. And what

895
00:43:02,607 --> 00:43:06,767
Speaker 1: it's done is that it's always been every time I'm

896
00:43:06,767 --> 00:43:09,727
Speaker 1: bitching about someone I love, because sometimes, I mean, everyone

897
00:43:09,807 --> 00:43:12,967
Speaker 1: fucks you off, right, I'm always thinking about that.

898
00:43:13,407 --> 00:43:15,687
Speaker 4: You're thinking about a check, but I've seen you actually

899
00:43:15,807 --> 00:43:19,047
Speaker 4: check your phone, and when you realize that, then.

900
00:43:18,967 --> 00:43:21,687
Speaker 1: I'll just turn my face silent. Here's my thak the battery.

901
00:43:21,847 --> 00:43:24,527
Speaker 2: If we are operating from a position where we're going

902
00:43:24,727 --> 00:43:27,887
Speaker 2: bitching about people is fine, then we have to be

903
00:43:27,927 --> 00:43:29,847
Speaker 2: fine with being bitched about I am.

904
00:43:30,047 --> 00:43:34,887
Speaker 1: That has to be fine. People don't do it behind

905
00:43:34,927 --> 00:43:37,607
Speaker 1: you back. They do it literally on your own Instagram page.

906
00:43:37,927 --> 00:43:40,767
Speaker 2: But I don't know if that's true, Jesse Stevens, because,

907
00:43:40,807 --> 00:43:42,847
Speaker 2: as discussed on this podcast more than once, you know

908
00:43:42,887 --> 00:43:46,127
Speaker 2: how to hold a grudge. And I'm not convinced that

909
00:43:46,167 --> 00:43:48,607
Speaker 2: if you overheard a couple of people bitching about you

910
00:43:48,687 --> 00:43:51,127
Speaker 2: in the kitchen, they wouldn't go straight on your.

911
00:43:51,007 --> 00:43:54,047
Speaker 4: Ship list the issue that they bitched badly. But I'm

912
00:43:54,047 --> 00:43:54,807
Speaker 4: also because.

913
00:43:55,247 --> 00:43:57,567
Speaker 1: You too must. I just know when you two are like, oh,

914
00:43:57,607 --> 00:44:00,327
Speaker 1: that fucking she is such like I just know.

915
00:44:00,527 --> 00:44:01,647
Speaker 4: Have you ever tried to pitch with Holli?

916
00:44:02,407 --> 00:44:05,127
Speaker 1: She's difficult to beat? And you know what, I really

917
00:44:05,247 --> 00:44:06,967
Speaker 1: value the people in my life have got quite a

918
00:44:06,967 --> 00:44:09,647
Speaker 1: few of them who just dead bat you when you

919
00:44:09,727 --> 00:44:13,247
Speaker 1: do it. And it's also quite frustrating in the moment,

920
00:44:13,367 --> 00:44:15,767
Speaker 1: but ultimately it makes me a better person. I will

921
00:44:15,807 --> 00:44:18,807
Speaker 1: be drawn then I feel ashamed of myself. It's very

922
00:44:18,847 --> 00:44:21,287
Speaker 1: hard to draw you in every holiday, it is, Jesse's

923
00:44:21,367 --> 00:44:21,847
Speaker 1: much Alia.

924
00:44:23,807 --> 00:44:26,687
Speaker 4: I was listening to a podcasts recently which elucidated to

925
00:44:26,687 --> 00:44:28,767
Speaker 4: me why why I need a good gossip every now

926
00:44:28,807 --> 00:44:31,807
Speaker 4: and then. It was with a psychologist called Dr Emily Musgrove,

927
00:44:32,287 --> 00:44:35,447
Speaker 4: and she was saying that the people who gospel a lot,

928
00:44:35,567 --> 00:44:37,527
Speaker 4: who bitch a lot, who complain a lot, are the

929
00:44:37,607 --> 00:44:40,927
Speaker 4: people who don't know how to set boundaries. So your

930
00:44:41,007 --> 00:44:44,167
Speaker 4: way of asserting your boundaries, so, for example, MEA, because

931
00:44:44,167 --> 00:44:46,367
Speaker 4: I can't do it to your face. What I'll do

932
00:44:46,847 --> 00:44:48,367
Speaker 4: is I'll go and just bitch to Holly about the

933
00:44:48,407 --> 00:44:50,287
Speaker 4: ways in which you overstacked.

934
00:44:49,847 --> 00:44:52,967
Speaker 1: My boundary instead of going MEA, you're always late, can you? Yeah? Yeah,

935
00:44:53,087 --> 00:44:55,447
Speaker 1: and you always interrupt instead of being able to say

936
00:44:55,487 --> 00:44:57,247
Speaker 1: that to me, that's hard to say.

937
00:44:57,647 --> 00:44:58,047
Speaker 4: That's hard.

938
00:44:58,167 --> 00:44:58,367
Speaker 3: Right.

939
00:44:58,487 --> 00:45:01,007
Speaker 1: I was going to say, have you noticed how cranky

940
00:45:01,007 --> 00:45:03,207
Speaker 1: Holly's been lately? And then I thought, I'll just say

941
00:45:03,207 --> 00:45:03,767
Speaker 1: it to Holly.

942
00:45:04,367 --> 00:45:06,927
Speaker 2: This is the thing, though, is that our relationship is

943
00:45:06,967 --> 00:45:10,007
Speaker 2: different to lots of relationships, right, because actually, don't bitch

944
00:45:10,007 --> 00:45:13,087
Speaker 2: about you very much, because it's like we can usually

945
00:45:13,127 --> 00:45:15,407
Speaker 2: address things like if we're attatchy with each other and

946
00:45:15,407 --> 00:45:17,967
Speaker 2: we feel the tension, we also know how to like, yeah,

947
00:45:18,207 --> 00:45:21,927
Speaker 2: that's much harder with some other friendships and some other relationships,

948
00:45:21,967 --> 00:45:25,887
Speaker 2: you're like, oh, there's something wrong here, either we have to,

949
00:45:25,967 --> 00:45:28,527
Speaker 2: you know, so I think it's a bit dependent.

950
00:45:28,847 --> 00:45:31,287
Speaker 1: Like I'm also very aware of how corrosive it is.

951
00:45:31,687 --> 00:45:34,127
Speaker 4: Oh, It's incredibly corrosive. And that's why I believe in

952
00:45:34,327 --> 00:45:40,287
Speaker 4: what I'll call cross circle bitching. So what I'll do, He's.

953
00:45:40,167 --> 00:45:42,287
Speaker 2: Going to vend rab bitching in order.

954
00:45:42,127 --> 00:45:43,047
Speaker 1: To so you can bitch.

955
00:45:43,807 --> 00:45:46,407
Speaker 4: You don't bitch with family to family. You don't bitch

956
00:45:46,447 --> 00:45:50,127
Speaker 4: with work to work. That's why I particularly like gossip

957
00:45:50,127 --> 00:45:50,887
Speaker 4: and bitching about people.

958
00:45:50,927 --> 00:45:53,607
Speaker 1: I don't know what's the difference between venting and bitching.

959
00:45:54,047 --> 00:45:56,487
Speaker 4: To me, I'm thinking it's the same. I mean, I'm

960
00:45:56,487 --> 00:45:58,567
Speaker 4: never gonna sit down and be like, have you seen

961
00:45:58,607 --> 00:45:59,207
Speaker 4: her eyebrows?

962
00:45:59,207 --> 00:45:59,847
Speaker 2: That's not my thing.

963
00:46:00,087 --> 00:46:03,567
Speaker 4: What I'm going to do is interrogate someone's behavior and

964
00:46:04,487 --> 00:46:06,567
Speaker 4: talk about how that made me feel. And it's probably

965
00:46:06,567 --> 00:46:09,167
Speaker 4: because in that moment I should have said or done

966
00:46:09,327 --> 00:46:10,847
Speaker 4: something that I didn't do.

967
00:46:10,847 --> 00:46:12,447
Speaker 1: Do you know what I'm going to advocate for is

968
00:46:12,527 --> 00:46:15,807
Speaker 1: more bitching in private and less fucking leaving horrible comments

969
00:46:15,967 --> 00:46:19,647
Speaker 1: and yeah, because remember when what social media has done

970
00:46:19,887 --> 00:46:24,607
Speaker 1: is that it's introduced performativeness into bitching. Yea, So it's

971
00:46:24,647 --> 00:46:26,767
Speaker 1: like I'm going to bitch about this person so that

972
00:46:26,887 --> 00:46:30,127
Speaker 1: I can get social status with all the people watching me, bitch.

973
00:46:30,287 --> 00:46:31,607
Speaker 1: And I think that is fun.

974
00:46:31,807 --> 00:46:34,487
Speaker 4: It's quite addictive to watch, and it's also rewarded, and

975
00:46:34,527 --> 00:46:36,727
Speaker 4: I've seen people do it. Like let's say there, you

976
00:46:36,767 --> 00:46:39,087
Speaker 4: know a brand or a something even you know we're

977
00:46:39,087 --> 00:46:41,207
Speaker 4: talking about witchery, not quite that, but let's say something

978
00:46:41,247 --> 00:46:43,287
Speaker 4: happened on an airline that you didn't like, and they'll get

979
00:46:43,327 --> 00:46:45,367
Speaker 4: their phone up and go blah blah blah. It's like,

980
00:46:45,407 --> 00:46:48,127
Speaker 4: you probably should have just told the airline because not

981
00:46:48,127 --> 00:46:51,287
Speaker 4: particularly interesting to us. I agree, don't put it on Instagram,

982
00:46:51,447 --> 00:46:54,047
Speaker 4: have a private chat, make sure the phone's off, make

983
00:46:54,087 --> 00:46:58,207
Speaker 4: sure you're not recording it, and then leave it. Speaking

984
00:46:58,247 --> 00:46:59,327
Speaker 4: of a gossip.

985
00:46:59,087 --> 00:47:02,127
Speaker 2: Oh this was a good one.

986
00:47:02,607 --> 00:47:04,967
Speaker 1: What we wait seguay. We didn't even deliberately plan.

987
00:47:04,967 --> 00:47:07,887
Speaker 4: This, but we were too ashamed to have this conversation

988
00:47:07,967 --> 00:47:09,767
Speaker 4: on the podcast, so we went to do it as

989
00:47:09,767 --> 00:47:14,287
Speaker 4: a subscribers. Our subscribers will understand. And there is a

990
00:47:14,287 --> 00:47:17,367
Speaker 4: blind item circulating at the moment about an incident that

991
00:47:17,407 --> 00:47:21,327
Speaker 4: occurred in Gwyneth Paltrow's house and someone apparently had a

992
00:47:21,367 --> 00:47:23,607
Speaker 4: bowel movement in one of her guest beds.

993
00:47:24,247 --> 00:47:28,207
Speaker 2: Actually we would guess cottages. We're not even certain about

994
00:47:28,527 --> 00:47:29,567
Speaker 2: the locations.

995
00:47:29,607 --> 00:47:31,847
Speaker 4: Well, what we had to do was talk about all

996
00:47:31,887 --> 00:47:34,207
Speaker 4: the details and then decide. And this is gossip at

997
00:47:34,247 --> 00:47:37,727
Speaker 4: its best. What would we have done? Right? What do

998
00:47:37,767 --> 00:47:39,727
Speaker 4: you do? Do you tell Gwyneth? Do you not?

999
00:47:40,007 --> 00:47:40,967
Speaker 1: What do we think happened?

1000
00:47:41,047 --> 00:47:43,487
Speaker 4: What do ea thing happened? We talked about it for

1001
00:47:43,487 --> 00:47:46,647
Speaker 4: too long. We did feel a bit dirty afterwards, but

1002
00:47:46,767 --> 00:47:49,287
Speaker 4: it was fun while it lasted. So if you need

1003
00:47:49,327 --> 00:47:53,487
Speaker 4: a gossip, go and listen to yesterday's Subs episode. Here's

1004
00:47:53,527 --> 00:47:55,327
Speaker 4: a sneak peek me ya.

1005
00:47:55,527 --> 00:47:58,407
Speaker 2: You are our expert spin doctor here. Yeah, our friend

1006
00:47:58,407 --> 00:48:00,447
Speaker 2: who were not naming, who is paying all the money

1007
00:48:00,487 --> 00:48:02,607
Speaker 2: to the spin doctors because the people keep leaving the

1008
00:48:02,607 --> 00:48:05,607
Speaker 2: fuo emojis on his Instagram account? What is he being

1009
00:48:05,647 --> 00:48:06,327
Speaker 2: advised to do?

1010
00:48:06,487 --> 00:48:09,087
Speaker 1: Right now? I've read that he'd fled and left that she.

1011
00:48:09,567 --> 00:48:12,007
Speaker 1: I can't believe that anyone would do that, because obviously

1012
00:48:12,287 --> 00:48:13,887
Speaker 1: Gwyneth knew who was sleeping in that bed.

1013
00:48:14,247 --> 00:48:17,927
Speaker 2: I can oh, you left also, I would imagine that

1014
00:48:18,047 --> 00:48:20,607
Speaker 2: he was probably also thinking, like in that state, in

1015
00:48:20,647 --> 00:48:24,127
Speaker 2: that freaked out state, Gwyneth herself is not stripping the bed,

1016
00:48:24,487 --> 00:48:27,527
Speaker 2: so he's probably thinking the staff are going to have

1017
00:48:27,607 --> 00:48:30,007
Speaker 2: to deal with it. They're probably not going to tell her,

1018
00:48:30,407 --> 00:48:32,767
Speaker 2: or maybe he's not thinking straight. He's just in the pattern.

1019
00:48:33,487 --> 00:48:35,767
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you out louders for listening to us

1020
00:48:35,767 --> 00:48:38,687
Speaker 2: on this Wednesday episode, and a big thanks to our team.

1021
00:48:38,727 --> 00:48:40,567
Speaker 2: Of course, we're putting the show together. We are going

1022
00:48:40,607 --> 00:48:42,487
Speaker 2: to be back in your ears tomorrow.

1023
00:48:42,847 --> 00:48:47,447
Speaker 1: Bye by shout out to any Muma mia subscribers listening.

1024
00:48:47,607 --> 00:48:49,887
Speaker 1: If you love the show and want to support us

1025
00:48:49,927 --> 00:48:52,767
Speaker 1: as well, subscribing to MoMA mia is the very best

1026
00:48:52,807 --> 00:48:54,567
Speaker 1: way to do so. There is a link in the

1027
00:48:54,607 --> 00:48:55,567
Speaker 1: episode description.