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Speaker 1: You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mama Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters

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Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on Hi.

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Speaker 3: It's Aaron here, and I am dropping in your feed

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Speaker 3: on a Saturday because I know how much you all

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Speaker 3: love Estolian author, skincare founder and entrepreneur zoe Foster Blake.

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Speaker 3: What you might not know is that she was recently

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Speaker 3: a guest on our incredible podcast, But are you Happy?

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Speaker 3: In this episode, you're about to hear Zoey share what

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Speaker 3: she's learned about embracing failure, knowing when to take a

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Speaker 3: step back, and the interviews and event she chooses to skip.

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Speaker 3: She also talks about her new book, Things Will Calm

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Speaker 3: Down Soon, and why writing is the one thing she

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Speaker 3: wishes she could do forever. It's such a great episode

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Speaker 3: and I know you're going to enjoy it and if

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Speaker 3: you want more, But are you happy? There's a link

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Speaker 3: in the show notes.

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Speaker 1: I am a perfectionist. I don't think that's a positive thing.

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Speaker 1: I think it's actually really fear masquerading as perfectionism. I

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Speaker 1: think some times, the times when everything's meant to be

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Speaker 1: perfect and you feel like you built it up so

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Speaker 1: much in your mind and it fails. It's not a failure,

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Speaker 1: it's a lesson that's always meant to be.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to but are you happy? The podcast

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Speaker 2: that asks the questions you've always wanted to know from

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Speaker 2: the people who appear to have it all. I'm Claire Stevens,

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Speaker 2: and today's guest is one who has been at the

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Speaker 2: very top of my wish list since I first had

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Speaker 2: the idea for this show. In terms of people with

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Speaker 2: aspirational lives, Zoe Foster Blake is in a league of

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Speaker 2: her own. She's an author of fiction and nonfiction and

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Speaker 2: children's books, a skincare founder and an entrepreneur, and as

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Speaker 2: a fixture of Australian media, she's known for her warm,

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Speaker 2: handid funny tone, one that is profoundly distinct to her.

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Speaker 2: I read Zoe's novels in my twenties. She's written a

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Speaker 2: lot of them, and they're the kinds of stories that

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Speaker 2: feel like a cozy, comfortable hug from a friend. She

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Speaker 2: then launched Go to Skincare, an iconic now international skincare company,

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Speaker 2: and while I don't know a lot about business and

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Speaker 2: stakes and shares, it's worth many, many, many ens of

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Speaker 2: million dollars. So obviously I have a million questions for

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Speaker 2: her because she really does have the secret source. And

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Speaker 2: lucky for us, Zoe is not into gatekeeping. She's one

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Speaker 2: of those people who really does believe that there's enough

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Speaker 2: success for everyone, and she likes to teach. Over the years,

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Speaker 2: Zoe Foster Blake has taught me about vitamin C and

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Speaker 2: face oils and hyaluronic acid, and I distinctly remember a

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Speaker 2: mind blowing makeup tutorial where she put blush on her

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Speaker 2: nose and it really does brighten up your whole faith.

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Speaker 2: But in this interview, she taught me a lot more

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Speaker 2: about boundaries, about success, about drive, about creativity, and of

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Speaker 2: course about happiness. He's Zoey foster Blake. You in your

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Speaker 2: early career, like me, you worked for Male Freedman. Tell

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Speaker 2: me when you were in your early twenties working at

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Speaker 2: Cosmo and then harp As Bizarre. Who were you at

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Speaker 2: that stage in your life?

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Speaker 1: Oh, it was such a great time. I came in

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Speaker 1: at twenty three knowing nothing about beauty editing at all,

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Speaker 1: but I'd worked in kids' mags and music mags before then,

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Speaker 1: so I'd grow on my teeth a little bit, but

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Speaker 1: I'd just come out of a big breakup, and I

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Speaker 1: really felt like it was my carry brudge on a

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Speaker 1: moment because I was suddenly in this glamorous job, at

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Speaker 1: this glamorous building, all of these glamorous women who I'd

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Speaker 1: looked up to for so long. You know, it was

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Speaker 1: pinched me a moment, and so I embraced it. I

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Speaker 1: started dressing up for work, which you had to anyway,

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Speaker 1: and my confidence really bloomed, and I was the first

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Speaker 1: time I really felt like part of a team and

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Speaker 1: part of something bigger. And I had not had a

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Speaker 1: great relationship with other women before that. I had a

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Speaker 1: really good best female friend at school, but I had

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Speaker 1: a lot of male friends. I just thought they were easier,

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Speaker 1: less bullshit. We just would be idiots together, and there

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Speaker 1: was more emphasis on comedy with the boys. So it

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Speaker 1: was the first time I fell in love with women

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Speaker 1: really and saw them not as competitors or as boring

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Speaker 1: and whatever I thought of them during school, and just

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Speaker 1: fell in love with women and being part of something

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Speaker 1: really fun. When you were a.

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Speaker 2: Beauty editor, did you feel like it was enough like

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Speaker 2: when you were you were at that stage in your

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Speaker 2: career and you are getting all these opportunities and you're

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Speaker 2: writing about beauty and really making a name for yourself.

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Speaker 2: Were you more ambitious than that?

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Speaker 1: Yes? And the proof came quickly because Mia quickly put

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Speaker 1: me in church lifestyle as well, and I started writing

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Speaker 1: dating columns. I had all of the time in the

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Speaker 1: world and all of the energy, and I just wanted

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Speaker 1: to do everything. Started a beauty blog, so I'd write

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Speaker 1: that in the mornings before work, jump on the bus,

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Speaker 1: drive into going to work, then go to events afterwards.

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Speaker 1: And then I remember sort of feeling like I needed

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Speaker 1: to move on, like I've been at Cosmo for a

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Speaker 1: few years. And it was actually me who said, just

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Speaker 1: can you write a book or something like? Just stay here,

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Speaker 1: but do something else to keep you busy. And I'd

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Speaker 1: always thought I might write fiction. My father's an author,

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Speaker 1: and I thought beauty editing was just this mad world.

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Speaker 1: I can't believe it existed. I could get sent stuff

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Speaker 1: to play with and that's your job. That's actually your job,

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Speaker 1: and you get to take it home. So yeah, So

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Speaker 1: I was blogging, working full time, writing a column, and

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Speaker 1: writing a book and that was just enough.

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Speaker 2: And Maya approached you at one stage for the deputy editor.

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Speaker 1: Job or was some kind of promotion.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you said no because it would involve people

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Speaker 2: management and leaning more into the business side. And you

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Speaker 2: probably don't know this, but Maya uses you as an

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Speaker 2: example in a lot of like mentoring conversations where she's like,

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Speaker 2: which path do you want to go down? She calls

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Speaker 2: it like the ladder or the lattice? Yeah, and she's like,

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Speaker 2: she offers you as one option, and it's like, well, well,

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Speaker 2: no one's going to want to go down the other line.

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Speaker 2: Everyone just wants to be ZOOI. So she says, how

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Speaker 2: you said no to that because you didn't want.

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Speaker 1: To do that? There was hard role, yeah, and you.

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Speaker 2: Would have been sacrificing your creativity.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: How were you so self assured at that point to

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Speaker 2: say no?

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Speaker 1: Ubris? I really think it was ubris because there is

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Speaker 1: a lot of creativity in being an editor or a

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Speaker 1: director of something, because you ultimately, now as a founder ansident,

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Speaker 1: you're setting the visionary tone, you can shape a magazine,

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Speaker 1: you're pulling a team together to create something incredible together.

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Speaker 1: But at that time I saw the man just as

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Speaker 1: a management role and a business role and a meetings

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Speaker 1: and only writing you did was the ads letter. I

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Speaker 1: was like, oh, god, no, I'm a writer, and I

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Speaker 1: am a writer. Writing informs everything I do if you

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Speaker 1: really drill down on it. So I saw that pretty clearly,

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Speaker 1: and it probably was pretty offensive back then at like

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Speaker 1: twenty six to say oh thanks, I just knew that it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it wouldn't be enough writing for me.

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Speaker 2: Are you good at saying no?

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Speaker 1: And also being an editor seemed really stressful? Yeah, a

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Speaker 1: lot of public facing stuff. Yeah, that scared the shit

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Speaker 1: out of me, even as a video you would have

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Speaker 1: to present to brand and it just ough heart.

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Speaker 2: Attacks, which is ironic now given what you do attacks.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, when you said no to that? Is that

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Speaker 2: something you're good at?

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Speaker 1: Saying no?

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Speaker 2: When things come up that are just not yes, something

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Speaker 2: that serves you. I love no And how do you

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Speaker 2: say no?

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Speaker 1: It took me a while to learn it, but it

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Speaker 1: is a real skill. And there are a few key

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Speaker 1: thinkers that I always look to, like Kevin Kelly and

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Speaker 1: Seth Godin who are just firm believers in you know

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Speaker 1: that old adage, when you say no to then you're

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Speaker 1: saying yes to you. But it's really about the more

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Speaker 1: busy you get, having children, having a business, trying to

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Speaker 1: feed all these different rounds. You just have to be

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Speaker 1: a lot more careful about what you say yes to

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Speaker 1: and saying yes to a gig or a job or something.

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Speaker 1: It's never just that two hours on stage, as you know,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of admin and emailing and sorting out

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Speaker 1: and contracts and travel and all of those things. And

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Speaker 1: it's a real privilege to be able to say no

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Speaker 1: to a lot of stuff now. But I have reached

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Speaker 1: that point because I've done the twenty years earlier of

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Speaker 1: building up that confidence but also that comfortable position to

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Speaker 1: be able to have my own business and writing books

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Speaker 1: in my family and that's all I do.

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Speaker 2: How do you say no? Because I I'm such a

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Speaker 2: people pleaser and it's probably one of my big issues is.

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Speaker 1: That please yourself. Please yourself this time, I know.

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Speaker 2: But like if somebody comes to you and you say no,

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Speaker 2: and then they do that thing of like coming back

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Speaker 2: to you with more reasons why.

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Speaker 1: You can't give You can't give an explanation.

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Speaker 2: So what's the one sentence? Though we fostered blake Way

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Speaker 2: to say no.

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Speaker 1: You just say thank you so much? Sounds great. I

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Speaker 1: can't be there, but I hope it goes really well

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Speaker 1: because if you say, oh, I can't do it that week,

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Speaker 1: they're like, oh, what dates are you free? Then never explain,

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Speaker 1: just say it's a no, and with kindness because you're like,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for thinking for me, this is

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Speaker 1: going to be a great event, but it's not for me.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's that really firm boundary. It's not rude,

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Speaker 1: it's just it's a no.

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Speaker 2: And I guess that's the only way that you're able

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Speaker 2: to focus on the stuff, yeap, that really matters to

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Speaker 2: you and to do the really really big projects like

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Speaker 2: building a huge.

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Speaker 1: Business, and that is it. And I think also you

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Speaker 1: get to a point where, like you either remember if

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Speaker 1: you're saying yes to someone that's beneficial to them, that's

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Speaker 1: helping their brand and their moment. I would rather help

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Speaker 1: my brand and my team and what I'm doing over here.

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Speaker 1: So that's the choice you make too. You're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm back myself.

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Speaker 2: I have a theory that the world lies to us

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Speaker 2: a bit about happiness and that often the moments that

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Speaker 2: we expect to be the happiest actually aren't. And that's

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Speaker 2: sort of what this podcast is about, that there are

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Speaker 2: these times where we have all these ideas about how

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Speaker 2: something should feel, and things might look really, really really

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Speaker 2: shiny from the outside, and that's not the reality. Do

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Speaker 2: you have an example of a time where extreme only

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Speaker 2: things looked great, but under the surface they.

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Speaker 1: Weren'd probably although a hand on heart. I try never

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Speaker 1: to be disingenious, and I'd rather omit than pretend. I

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Speaker 1: don't think it's helpful to portray that perfection. I know

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Speaker 1: that's obviously a lot of what social media is about,

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Speaker 1: and I know there are a lot of people no

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Speaker 1: ow how A being very open about their vulnerabilities and

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Speaker 1: their mental health, and I think that's very helpful for

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Speaker 1: a lot of people to see that. I can honestly

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Speaker 1: say that that doesn't happen for me very often. There's

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Speaker 1: certainly been big pockets of my life where things were

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Speaker 1: meant to be fantastic and amazing, But that's always not

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Speaker 1: really about the outside observer going, hey, this looks perfect,

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Speaker 1: but me placing those expectations on it, and going, you

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Speaker 1: should be having the time of your life because I've

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Speaker 1: worked so hard to make it perfect. In my mind,

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Speaker 1: I am a perfectionist. I don't think that's a positive thing.

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Speaker 1: I think it's actually really fear masquerading as perfectionism. A

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Speaker 1: big one was the arrogance of taking a gap year

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Speaker 1: after year twelve and sort of telling everyone in my

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Speaker 1: small town I'm gone in the big city. You know,

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Speaker 1: I need a break from study. Oh my God, and

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Speaker 1: taking a year off before going to UNI and moving

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Speaker 1: to Sydney in a gust of like speed. I was seventeen.

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Speaker 1: I had no money, nothing, nothing saved. I wasn't going

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Speaker 1: to Africa to help orphanages. I wasn't going to work

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Speaker 1: overseas or travel. I didn't have a job. I just

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Speaker 1: moved to Sydney in a sharehouse and I only had

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Speaker 1: my grandma and my sister in Sydney, and I had

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Speaker 1: the most miserable, broke, sad, pathetic year of my life.

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Speaker 1: And I would go home for birthdays or twenty first

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Speaker 1: or whatever and had to pretend that everything was going great.

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Speaker 1: For example, I was working in the dungeon of the

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Speaker 1: Intercontinental selling their loyalty card as a telemarketer for zero dollars,

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Speaker 1: and so I would tell everyone I was working an Intercontinental.

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Speaker 1: I was also a nightpacker at Coles like I was,

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Speaker 1: I did a lot of terrible jobs. But I now

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Speaker 1: am so grateful for that year, because without the depths

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Speaker 1: of being super duper broke and having not a friend

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Speaker 1: and no clue and just being aimless, I would never

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Speaker 1: allow myself to feel like that again. I just really

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Speaker 1: realized that I need to be busy, I need to

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Speaker 1: have some purpose, I need to have friends, and I

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Speaker 1: need to have some money. Mm So I think that

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Speaker 1: year even that was silly, yeah, and some could say

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Speaker 1: a waste of a year, but because I was also

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Speaker 1: so young, it didn't really matter. I still started unions

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Speaker 1: everybody else. But yeah, I think sometimes the times when

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Speaker 1: everything's meant to be perfect and you feel like you

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Speaker 1: built it up so much in your mind and it fails,

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Speaker 1: it's not a failure, it's a lesson that's always meant.

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Speaker 2: To be in your new novel. Things will come down soon.

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Speaker 2: Something I really took away from it was the kind

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Speaker 2: of unrelenting pressure of being a founder and how you

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Speaker 2: have these achievements that I just cannot even imagine in

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Speaker 2: terms of what you've built, yet at the same time

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Speaker 2: you kind of can't sit there to take it in

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Speaker 2: because there's always a million other things you need to

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Speaker 2: be doing Have you had that experience with business sometimes

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Speaker 2: that you look around and think this is incredible, but

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Speaker 2: I'm not able to feel it.

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Speaker 1: And I think anyone who works in likem media where

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Speaker 1: you're always thinking about the next show or the next

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Speaker 1: magazine or the next whatever, where alays working you haven't

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Speaker 1: many months ahead. Yeah, it's it's a real trap because

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Speaker 1: you never take a moment to stop and think. It's

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Speaker 1: only having a few times over the years, and it's

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Speaker 1: like it was seeing our products and Saphara in the States,

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Speaker 1: and it's always the Christmas party where I stop and

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Speaker 1: look around and go, oh my god, these people, I

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Speaker 1: love them, Look what they've done, Look what we've created together.

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Speaker 1: Or feedback from customers where you know, whether it's at

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Speaker 1: an airport or an email, and it's just that pure

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Speaker 1: thank you. This has changed my skin. And I think

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Speaker 1: those little reminders. People might not give founders feedback because

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Speaker 1: they expect that they'll get it all the time, but

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Speaker 1: we really need it because it's a really kind of

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Speaker 1: busy and lonely position. A lot of the time. You're

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Speaker 1: the director and you meant to have all the ideas

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Speaker 1: and you have this eternal type of creativity and excitement

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Speaker 1: and you're public facing, but well you do get the

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Speaker 1: good jobs thumbs ups, but you you yourself will never

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Speaker 1: actually take a moment to stop. Yeah, and you've got

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Speaker 1: to force yourself to do it. And I think the

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Speaker 1: Christmas party is always a good one for me.

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Speaker 2: Does your business like at that? Go to a Christmas party?

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Speaker 2: When you see your products in Sephora that.

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Speaker 1: Was in the States, Yeah, we'rund.

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Speaker 2: Meca and yeah, when you have those moments, is it

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Speaker 2: happiness that you feel or is it something else? Like

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Speaker 2: what does business give you?

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Speaker 1: I think it might be a sin. But pride. I

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Speaker 1: feel proud. I feel proud that I didn't know anything

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Speaker 1: about business and I didn't know anything about creating a

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Speaker 1: team in a workplace and a culture and satisfying a customer.

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Speaker 1: I had done it a little bit through my writing,

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Speaker 1: I guess, creating a project that people can hold in

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Speaker 1: their hands and enjoy. But it's pride and it's always

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Speaker 1: a bit of how did you get here? I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: say it's imposter syndrome. I don't. I'm past that for that,

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Speaker 1: But it's pride and a little bit of fascination.

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Speaker 2: It's go cow, but smile do you get the sense

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Speaker 2: of like I'm leaving a legacy and I've created something

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Speaker 2: bigger than myself. There's some like almost immortality there.

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't have said yes to that because it feels

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Speaker 1: silly for a skincare brand to have a legacy. But

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Speaker 1: when I was buying my company back last year, this

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Speaker 1: huge maternal instinct came in and I just felt so

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Speaker 1: protective of what fills my cupboard. I would be bereft

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Speaker 1: if I had no more go to. Let alone the

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Speaker 1: millions of customers who love it and use it every

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Speaker 1: day and our team, and I just thought, this is

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Speaker 1: something that enhances people's lives that they really enjoy, and

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Speaker 1: it gives them a little moment without getting to this

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Speaker 1: is saving the earth. It's just a nice moment for

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Speaker 1: people that they like. And it filled the gap, and

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Speaker 1: I'm proud of that. Don't fuck it up and ruin it.

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Speaker 1: It's really really hard to get a brand that people

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Speaker 1: resonate with. It's really hard to get that stickiness and

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Speaker 1: that loyalty in that community. How dare you ruin that?

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Speaker 1: Like you're so lucky? So yeah, I really just went

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Speaker 1: into full speed mode and sixth year and just went

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Speaker 1: at all costs. Yeah, this must keep going. We want

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Speaker 1: to be a household name in Australia. That's our goal.

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Speaker 1: Our big goal is to be a household name in Australia.

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Speaker 1: And we can do it. We've been in BIS for

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Speaker 1: ten years and I think we'll get there.

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Speaker 2: After the break, Zoe and I talk about her strengths

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Speaker 2: and weaknesses as a business founder, and more about her

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Speaker 2: book and why she'd be happy to just sit and

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Speaker 2: write for the rest of her life.

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Speaker 1: What do you.

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Speaker 2: Think is your biggest strength as a founder?

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Speaker 1: I think creativity, but also bupled with risk. I'm not

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Speaker 1: averse to risk. I think you have to lean into

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Speaker 1: risk and be really okay with both outcomes. And they're

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Speaker 1: not always going to be great. You won't hear about

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Speaker 1: the bad outcomes, you'll only see the good ones. But

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Speaker 1: take the chance. And that's what I love about us being,

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Speaker 1: you know, privately owned again and small and nimble, is

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Speaker 1: there is no bureaucracy. We can do whatever we want,

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Speaker 1: and I think sometimes we forget that. And I think

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Speaker 1: when you're trying too hard to think about what the

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Speaker 1: customer is thinking, you're overthinking it and you need to

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Speaker 1: go back to what we're thinking, because when I started

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Speaker 1: the brand, I had blinkers on. I didn't care about

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Speaker 1: what every other brand was doing. That was twelve years ago.

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Speaker 1: Now it's a really saturated landscape, and when you're in

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Speaker 1: retail like Mecca and you're up against these beautiful international brands,

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Speaker 1: you have to be a bit o mindful about what

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Speaker 1: you're up against and how you can stand out. So

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Speaker 1: I like that. I think within discipline there's freedom, and

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Speaker 1: I like those boundaries because it allows me to be

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Speaker 1: more creative and push against things a bit more.

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Speaker 2: So.

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Speaker 1: I'm always reminding the team to be cheekier, a bit naughtier,

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Speaker 1: where the Rogue Train like, we take beauty not too

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Speaker 1: seriously to be fun, and we like to make things

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Speaker 1: fun that have no right to be. It's like on

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Speaker 1: the back of the packaging and little moments on the website,

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Speaker 1: we're like, that's allowed. No one said you can't have fun.

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Speaker 1: So I think being cheeky and taking risks is probably

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Speaker 1: what I bring.

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Speaker 2: Is that similar to how you approach creativity in general,

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Speaker 2: like in terms of writing, in terms of every creative

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Speaker 2: project you've embarked on, do you kind of have that cheekiness,

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Speaker 2: risk taking a bit of like a no fear.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's funny because I don't think of myself

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Speaker 1: as fearless. I'm a quite anxious person, but I think

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Speaker 1: with creative projects, I do feel pretty reckless, and I

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Speaker 1: think that's a good place to be in. And maybe

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't have at the start with my earlier novels

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Speaker 1: because I really needed them to work so that would

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Speaker 1: validate me and get me to do another one. I

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Speaker 1: would like, e know if that works and I get

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Speaker 1: to do another one. I still feel that if this works,

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Speaker 1: I get to do another one. Is kind of my

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Speaker 1: barometer of success as well as how it resonates with

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Speaker 1: the reader. So it's a funny thing because you sort

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Speaker 1: of there's a selfishness to writing a piece of work

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Speaker 1: that you're really happy with and you love because I

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Speaker 1: guess human to be writing for the reader. But I

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Speaker 1: can't write for the reader because I don't know what

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Speaker 1: they want and what they're thinking. So I have to

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Speaker 1: try and assume that what I like is good taste.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's.

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Speaker 1: Arrogant, I guess, But I feel confident enough at forty

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Speaker 1: four in my taste and in my work to be

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Speaker 1: able to work on it till a point where I

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Speaker 1: feel like it's good enough to go out there and

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Speaker 1: I could add it for ten years. I really could,

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Speaker 1: and I could hone and hone and hone. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: so I feel fearless and I loved Things Will Come

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Speaker 1: Down Soon because to me felt genuinely innovative in terms

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Speaker 1: of it's not a business book, but you can learn

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Speaker 1: so much about business in it. And I just thought

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Speaker 1: that ven diagram a crossover of a founder who's an

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Speaker 1: active founder, a proven entrepreneur, and a fiction writer coming

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Speaker 1: together to offer something unique, something for everyone hopefully. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think you got to back.

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Speaker 2: Yourself as somebody who knows absolutely nothing about business, reading

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Speaker 2: Things Will Come Down Soon was so fascinating and you

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Speaker 2: could really feel the stakes. I don't think I've ever

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Speaker 2: felt stakes like that because you don't really read books

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Speaker 2: about business, and especially women in businesses. You so rarely

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Speaker 2: read those stories. Yet it feels very of the moment

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Speaker 2: because there are so many female entrepreneurs, there are so

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Speaker 2: many women building their own things. How did you decide?

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Speaker 2: Because as a reader, part of my fascination is trying

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Speaker 2: to work out parallels and who's who and looking at

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Speaker 2: all the characters. How did you creatively break your own

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Speaker 2: experience and writing something that was going to be very

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Speaker 2: very distinct and not kind of make people look at

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Speaker 2: your life?

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Speaker 1: And one of the will I love fiction is very

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Speaker 1: freeing and it's very liberating. And God, I remember even

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Speaker 1: back in their kiss' days talking to me about it, going, oh,

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Speaker 1: I might write like it's a bit of a autobiographical chese,

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Speaker 1: are you insane? You're twenty five? You're going to burn

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Speaker 1: all your bridges way too early.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And my father as well, He's like, fiction is so

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Speaker 1: fun because you can mutate ten people into one to

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Speaker 1: get the perfect person with the perfect idiosyncrasies. And so

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Speaker 1: for me, each character works hard in this book to

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Speaker 1: pull the narrative through. There's no fat in there. They're

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Speaker 1: all there to support kids trajectory and to show the

431
00:21:48,665 --> 00:21:53,105
Speaker 1: different facets of her life and her personality. So I

432
00:21:53,145 --> 00:21:54,825
Speaker 1: can hand on heart say this is not my life

433
00:21:54,825 --> 00:21:58,265
Speaker 1: and these are not my people. But certainly there's aspects

434
00:21:58,425 --> 00:22:01,785
Speaker 1: of these people that I've known. And also I'm mentor

435
00:22:01,825 --> 00:22:03,585
Speaker 1: a lot of young founders, and I've heard their horror

436
00:22:03,665 --> 00:22:05,945
Speaker 1: stories and so a lot of that have come in.

437
00:22:06,025 --> 00:22:07,825
Speaker 1: I didn't want to write my deal. My deal is

438
00:22:07,945 --> 00:22:10,905
Speaker 1: unique and circumstantial, and it's been written about, and it's

439
00:22:11,745 --> 00:22:14,905
Speaker 1: I wanted to create something new. And also every deal

440
00:22:15,025 --> 00:22:18,545
Speaker 1: and every business is so specifically impersonal, and it's a

441
00:22:18,545 --> 00:22:22,945
Speaker 1: moment in time, and you know, there's so many factors

442
00:22:22,945 --> 00:22:25,345
Speaker 1: that come into the success of a business. So I

443
00:22:25,705 --> 00:22:28,425
Speaker 1: didn't want to necessarily replicate my own story.

444
00:22:28,945 --> 00:22:32,865
Speaker 2: I think what makes the book so vivid and you

445
00:22:32,945 --> 00:22:37,985
Speaker 2: become so in Kit's world because your creativity and marketing

446
00:22:38,065 --> 00:22:40,265
Speaker 2: brain is all over it. Because even the business that

447
00:22:40,385 --> 00:22:43,705
Speaker 2: Kit has, which is second day Hair, you can't help

448
00:22:43,705 --> 00:22:46,025
Speaker 2: but be like, can somebody invent that?

449
00:22:46,145 --> 00:22:47,305
Speaker 1: I know, I'm thinking about it.

450
00:22:47,425 --> 00:22:50,105
Speaker 2: I genuinely I was like, did you get halfway through

451
00:22:50,145 --> 00:22:52,545
Speaker 2: the book and think, oh wait, maybe I should also

452
00:22:52,665 --> 00:22:53,425
Speaker 2: invent the product?

453
00:22:53,585 --> 00:22:57,625
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's trademarked. Is it actually your site?

454
00:22:58,865 --> 00:23:00,665
Speaker 2: Part of me was like, maybe I should do that.

455
00:23:00,745 --> 00:23:03,945
Speaker 1: I do not the first I mean, there are products

456
00:23:03,945 --> 00:23:07,465
Speaker 1: out there that exist like this, but it couldn't be skin. Yeah,

457
00:23:07,465 --> 00:23:09,065
Speaker 1: And I didn't want to do make up here. I'm

458
00:23:09,105 --> 00:23:12,385
Speaker 1: obsessed with hair and hair products, styling, and I know

459
00:23:12,505 --> 00:23:14,705
Speaker 1: honestly about six or seven styles who become good friends,

460
00:23:14,705 --> 00:23:16,785
Speaker 1: who all want to have their own brand or have started,

461
00:23:16,945 --> 00:23:20,065
Speaker 1: and so it made perfect sense. But the product itself

462
00:23:20,065 --> 00:23:24,665
Speaker 1: had to be something that doesn't exist really and could

463
00:23:24,665 --> 00:23:26,825
Speaker 1: be very sort to a lot of people. So of course,

464
00:23:26,865 --> 00:23:28,665
Speaker 1: you know, lived experience, I'm going to put a bit

465
00:23:28,705 --> 00:23:30,545
Speaker 1: of myself in there and what I would do if

466
00:23:30,545 --> 00:23:34,065
Speaker 1: I was founder, But yeah, kidn exists as my parable

467
00:23:34,305 --> 00:23:37,145
Speaker 1: to show everything I've learned. And after my deal, I

468
00:23:37,145 --> 00:23:40,465
Speaker 1: honestly sat down and went, I feel the duty of

469
00:23:41,025 --> 00:23:43,705
Speaker 1: taking everything I've learned from these very expensive lawyers and

470
00:23:43,705 --> 00:23:48,225
Speaker 1: advisors to share that knowledge with people who like meat

471
00:23:48,225 --> 00:23:51,185
Speaker 1: perhaps and they're creative and have no clue about this stuff.

472
00:23:51,705 --> 00:23:53,945
Speaker 1: And i ran my gamut for a year and I'm like, okay,

473
00:23:53,945 --> 00:23:55,665
Speaker 1: here's what I learned, guys quick. I needed to get

474
00:23:55,665 --> 00:23:56,225
Speaker 1: it all down.

475
00:23:57,105 --> 00:24:01,625
Speaker 2: Obviously, it's an amazing book and it's page turner, and

476
00:24:01,705 --> 00:24:04,465
Speaker 2: I read it so bloody quickly. But I also think

477
00:24:04,505 --> 00:24:11,105
Speaker 2: that there's something quite altruistic about it, because, as a

478
00:24:11,105 --> 00:24:15,705
Speaker 2: woman who I can be kind of creative, the idea

479
00:24:15,825 --> 00:24:21,345
Speaker 2: of owning anything doesn't come naturally, and the idea of

480
00:24:21,705 --> 00:24:26,785
Speaker 2: trying to build something for yourself doesn't come naturally, and

481
00:24:26,825 --> 00:24:31,505
Speaker 2: so reading somebody's story where she does that and then

482
00:24:31,785 --> 00:24:34,865
Speaker 2: all the nuances of how you set up the company

483
00:24:34,905 --> 00:24:38,185
Speaker 2: and what that then means down the line, and having

484
00:24:38,265 --> 00:24:43,065
Speaker 2: to have really difficult conversations. Even the role modeling of

485
00:24:43,105 --> 00:24:49,585
Speaker 2: the difficult conversations that King had was actually incredibly insightful.

486
00:24:51,025 --> 00:24:54,185
Speaker 2: Is there anyone who's going to read your book and

487
00:24:55,665 --> 00:24:57,145
Speaker 2: see themselves or be pissed off?

488
00:24:57,945 --> 00:25:02,185
Speaker 1: No? No, it shouldn't feel like that sort of book

489
00:25:02,225 --> 00:25:05,865
Speaker 1: where like I'm squat to earth about anything all of

490
00:25:05,865 --> 00:25:08,545
Speaker 1: the stressing kicket slash she brought on herself. Yeah, yeah,

491
00:25:08,985 --> 00:25:11,065
Speaker 1: she shouldn't do that. The lessons that I put in

492
00:25:11,105 --> 00:25:14,505
Speaker 1: there were kind of really dramatized in terms of like equity,

493
00:25:14,545 --> 00:25:17,505
Speaker 1: giving away too much equity to start, or selling to

494
00:25:17,625 --> 00:25:20,265
Speaker 1: people who didn't really have your best interests at heart.

495
00:25:20,385 --> 00:25:24,105
Speaker 1: And I think I got to these positions or pivotal

496
00:25:24,145 --> 00:25:26,545
Speaker 1: moments in my business career where I could have made

497
00:25:26,585 --> 00:25:28,665
Speaker 1: those mistakes, and so I put them in the story

498
00:25:28,705 --> 00:25:31,865
Speaker 1: to actors protection and go did maybe not do that?

499
00:25:32,585 --> 00:25:35,505
Speaker 1: So that was the real headfuck when we with Kit

500
00:25:35,705 --> 00:25:37,345
Speaker 1: was like do I want to show her making all

501
00:25:37,345 --> 00:25:40,105
Speaker 1: the wrong decisions or do I want to show making

502
00:25:40,105 --> 00:25:41,785
Speaker 1: the right decisions? But how do we learn from that?

503
00:25:42,065 --> 00:25:45,785
Speaker 1: So I had to find that sweet spot where she falters.

504
00:25:45,865 --> 00:25:48,505
Speaker 1: But you know, anyway, I went to spilet. But certainly

505
00:25:48,505 --> 00:25:50,545
Speaker 1: she's learning as she goes, which I did too.

506
00:25:51,425 --> 00:25:54,105
Speaker 2: How do you go with being a perfectionist and being

507
00:25:54,105 --> 00:25:54,465
Speaker 2: a writer.

508
00:25:55,625 --> 00:25:57,785
Speaker 1: I think it's a skill. I don't see it as

509
00:25:57,825 --> 00:26:01,425
Speaker 1: a negative until submission time, and that's when a good

510
00:26:01,545 --> 00:26:04,505
Speaker 1: editor and a good copyet art are really vital. Because

511
00:26:05,545 --> 00:26:08,585
Speaker 1: I over wrote by thirty thousand words, which is classic

512
00:26:08,665 --> 00:26:13,465
Speaker 1: me problem. The problem well sort of, but then you know,

513
00:26:13,505 --> 00:26:16,065
Speaker 1: and then I remember shaving off like a thousand, getting

514
00:26:16,105 --> 00:26:18,225
Speaker 1: it back and going, guys, it's don't worry, it's ready

515
00:26:18,665 --> 00:26:23,185
Speaker 1: then to print. Then they're like, you're cute, And then

516
00:26:23,185 --> 00:26:24,385
Speaker 1: I think we had to get rid of at least

517
00:26:24,385 --> 00:26:27,825
Speaker 1: another twenty thousand. So at that point, though, I just

518
00:26:27,865 --> 00:26:30,745
Speaker 1: realized I'm in the hands of professionals, and I don't

519
00:26:30,785 --> 00:26:32,585
Speaker 1: fight them on it. There's a few lines I like, No,

520
00:26:32,665 --> 00:26:34,505
Speaker 1: that's a really good line, Please come we keep that.

521
00:26:34,945 --> 00:26:36,745
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think you're going to hand it over

522
00:26:36,745 --> 00:26:39,145
Speaker 1: at one point otherwise you'll just you'll be paralyzed forever.

523
00:26:39,785 --> 00:26:43,425
Speaker 2: Is the perfectionism paralyzing In the first instance, like when

524
00:26:43,465 --> 00:26:46,705
Speaker 2: you sit down to write. You wrote a blog post

525
00:26:46,745 --> 00:26:49,625
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty two called the Writer who.

526
00:26:49,865 --> 00:26:51,945
Speaker 1: Doesn't or the Writer who Is something like.

527
00:26:51,945 --> 00:26:55,225
Speaker 2: That, and you wrote about how you wanted to establish

528
00:26:55,265 --> 00:26:57,305
Speaker 2: a writing habit, and you'll notice it haven't.

529
00:26:58,225 --> 00:26:59,505
Speaker 1: That's like the last blog.

530
00:26:59,785 --> 00:27:01,705
Speaker 2: Well you wrote that blog and now you've got an

531
00:27:02,065 --> 00:27:04,905
Speaker 2: So you did pretty bloody did something else. But I

532
00:27:04,945 --> 00:27:08,545
Speaker 2: can imagine you've got your business, you've got family, you've

533
00:27:08,585 --> 00:27:10,705
Speaker 2: got all this stuff going on. Sit down in front

534
00:27:10,705 --> 00:27:13,865
Speaker 2: of your computer. Does the perfectionism emerge?

535
00:27:13,905 --> 00:27:17,945
Speaker 1: Then? No, not till the end, And I'm so down

536
00:27:17,945 --> 00:27:21,665
Speaker 1: with the rewrite if it's not working. There are a

537
00:27:21,745 --> 00:27:24,265
Speaker 1: couple of camps of writers. There are the writers who

538
00:27:24,305 --> 00:27:26,505
Speaker 1: say it's very hard, and I sit down, I really

539
00:27:26,625 --> 00:27:30,345
Speaker 1: and I get typewriter, diar here. I just once the

540
00:27:30,425 --> 00:27:32,945
Speaker 1: idea has marinated for long enough, it's all there and

541
00:27:32,985 --> 00:27:35,425
Speaker 1: it's just a case of getting it out. Hence they're

542
00:27:35,425 --> 00:27:39,065
Speaker 1: thirty thousand overwrite. So for me, my problem is more like,

543
00:27:39,625 --> 00:27:42,825
Speaker 1: don't overwrite. You're just wasting your time. This is not good.

544
00:27:42,865 --> 00:27:45,985
Speaker 1: But I like to explore every character in every subplot

545
00:27:46,105 --> 00:27:49,345
Speaker 1: to give more reflection back to my protagonist and then

546
00:27:49,385 --> 00:27:51,185
Speaker 1: in the end, if we realize we don't need that,

547
00:27:51,185 --> 00:27:54,105
Speaker 1: that and that can go. And I also really love dialogue,

548
00:27:54,145 --> 00:27:56,385
Speaker 1: and dialogue is hard to keep brief because real life

549
00:27:56,425 --> 00:28:00,105
Speaker 1: conversations are super wordy, and I think you learn a

550
00:28:00,145 --> 00:28:03,265
Speaker 1: lot about characters in conversations with others. So I love dialogue,

551
00:28:03,305 --> 00:28:06,305
Speaker 1: but no, my perfectionism comes in the end. I love

552
00:28:06,345 --> 00:28:08,785
Speaker 1: the edit. Some people hate it. It is quite mathematical,

553
00:28:09,025 --> 00:28:12,745
Speaker 1: which is not my normal brain superpower. Because you've got

554
00:28:12,825 --> 00:28:14,985
Speaker 1: a hard copy, this soft copy, the line edit, that

555
00:28:15,065 --> 00:28:18,585
Speaker 1: comments underline, like, it's a lot for my brain, but

556
00:28:18,665 --> 00:28:20,385
Speaker 1: I know we're shaving it off to get to the

557
00:28:20,425 --> 00:28:21,505
Speaker 1: good stuff underneath.

558
00:28:22,585 --> 00:28:25,625
Speaker 2: When you look at all these different things you do,

559
00:28:26,585 --> 00:28:29,785
Speaker 2: where does your kind of a liveness come from? Is

560
00:28:29,785 --> 00:28:31,065
Speaker 2: it business or is it writing?

561
00:28:31,905 --> 00:28:35,785
Speaker 1: Writing is business for me, so really go to for

562
00:28:35,825 --> 00:28:37,465
Speaker 1: a few reasons exists, but one of them was like,

563
00:28:37,505 --> 00:28:40,025
Speaker 1: I wanted to be a copywriter and I wasn't, so

564
00:28:40,065 --> 00:28:41,465
Speaker 1: I thought, oh, make a brand. Then I get to

565
00:28:41,465 --> 00:28:43,225
Speaker 1: do my own ads. I get to do my own

566
00:28:43,265 --> 00:28:45,865
Speaker 1: marketing and copy. As well as the fact that that

567
00:28:46,145 --> 00:28:49,425
Speaker 1: sort of range for cutting out the beauty editor was

568
00:28:49,505 --> 00:28:51,025
Speaker 1: what I wanted to do. By making a range that

569
00:28:51,025 --> 00:28:53,105
Speaker 1: anyone could pick up and understand instantly, and it was

570
00:28:53,185 --> 00:28:57,385
Speaker 1: just genuinely very useful and effective. But I love recommendations

571
00:28:57,385 --> 00:28:58,905
Speaker 1: and I love saving people time and money.

572
00:28:58,945 --> 00:28:59,825
Speaker 2: I'm like, I just use this one.

573
00:28:59,905 --> 00:29:01,305
Speaker 1: And that's what I've done is a beauty editor for

574
00:29:01,305 --> 00:29:04,385
Speaker 1: ten years. But the writing, so I still write all

575
00:29:04,385 --> 00:29:07,785
Speaker 1: the copy on primary and secondary vessels for the brand.

576
00:29:08,385 --> 00:29:10,865
Speaker 1: Whatever you've hold in your hands, I've written. I have

577
00:29:10,905 --> 00:29:13,545
Speaker 1: an amazingly talented team who do all the emails and

578
00:29:13,585 --> 00:29:16,225
Speaker 1: social and everything. They're great at that. But if you're

579
00:29:16,225 --> 00:29:18,265
Speaker 1: holding it, I've written it because I love that stuff,

580
00:29:18,305 --> 00:29:19,705
Speaker 1: that little moment in the shower when you get a

581
00:29:19,745 --> 00:29:22,785
Speaker 1: little giggle. So I am a writer no matter what

582
00:29:22,825 --> 00:29:25,785
Speaker 1: I'm doing. Really, that's the essence of it all. Whether

583
00:29:25,825 --> 00:29:29,745
Speaker 1: it's Instagram, I'm a writer. The piction's secondary. It's anything

584
00:29:29,945 --> 00:29:32,585
Speaker 1: children's books, you know, even though they are literally called

585
00:29:32,625 --> 00:29:36,745
Speaker 1: picture books. I still want the writing to really sing,

586
00:29:37,105 --> 00:29:41,305
Speaker 1: and of course novels. So the perfectionism it runs through everything.

587
00:29:42,625 --> 00:29:45,825
Speaker 2: How do you go about because obviously, when may I

588
00:29:45,905 --> 00:29:51,265
Speaker 2: offered you the deputy editor job, you weren't into people managing.

589
00:29:52,225 --> 00:29:55,305
Speaker 1: Have you had to people manage? Not really? And This

590
00:29:55,345 --> 00:29:56,705
Speaker 1: is one of the things I put in things will

591
00:29:56,705 --> 00:30:00,985
Speaker 1: come down soon, is that it's often feels curati. Founders

592
00:30:01,065 --> 00:30:04,345
Speaker 1: often hire junior to start off with to help them

593
00:30:04,345 --> 00:30:08,025
Speaker 1: with admin or menial tasks. But as Kit does, she

594
00:30:08,105 --> 00:30:10,185
Speaker 1: hires very seen you, very early on. And I think

595
00:30:10,225 --> 00:30:13,465
Speaker 1: that's a good move because I know what I'm good at,

596
00:30:13,505 --> 00:30:16,705
Speaker 1: and it's not people management and it's not running in

597
00:30:16,745 --> 00:30:19,105
Speaker 1: a team and logistics and that sort of thing. So

598
00:30:19,785 --> 00:30:21,625
Speaker 1: I have a CEO and a CIMO and I have

599
00:30:21,665 --> 00:30:23,625
Speaker 1: grown ups in there doing that. And that was a

600
00:30:23,625 --> 00:30:26,425
Speaker 1: big important step in our growth about five years in

601
00:30:26,505 --> 00:30:29,745
Speaker 1: where I'm like, there was ten of us, say, doing

602
00:30:29,825 --> 00:30:32,185
Speaker 1: everything and not all of it great, and so we

603
00:30:32,225 --> 00:30:34,945
Speaker 1: brought in the grown ups we always say, and they're fantastic.

604
00:30:35,105 --> 00:30:37,265
Speaker 1: So no, no, I think you can know what you're

605
00:30:37,265 --> 00:30:39,585
Speaker 1: good at and invest in what you're not good at.

606
00:30:40,065 --> 00:30:46,025
Speaker 2: How do you go being Zoe Foster Blake the founder

607
00:30:46,065 --> 00:30:50,785
Speaker 2: and person working in this business and Zoe Foster Blake

608
00:30:50,865 --> 00:30:53,665
Speaker 2: the brand, Like, are you conscious when you come into

609
00:30:53,705 --> 00:30:57,945
Speaker 2: work that maybe you've got less of a margin of

610
00:30:58,065 --> 00:31:00,385
Speaker 2: error in terms of how you behave that day?

611
00:31:00,665 --> 00:31:03,825
Speaker 1: Totally? I think that's when you become a public figure

612
00:31:03,905 --> 00:31:06,625
Speaker 1: that's always in your mind anywhere you go and whatever

613
00:31:06,665 --> 00:31:10,465
Speaker 1: you do, particularly when your husband's a beacon that stuffs,

614
00:31:10,865 --> 00:31:13,065
Speaker 1: so you get used to being.

615
00:31:14,465 --> 00:31:14,905
Speaker 2: Watched.

616
00:31:15,865 --> 00:31:18,505
Speaker 1: I don't think my team do that. You know, we're

617
00:31:18,505 --> 00:31:21,185
Speaker 1: good people, we're all in it together. But I think

618
00:31:21,225 --> 00:31:24,105
Speaker 1: the public facing aspect of being a brand founder is

619
00:31:24,585 --> 00:31:27,185
Speaker 1: pretty highly scrutinized, particularly in beauty. It never used to be,

620
00:31:27,265 --> 00:31:30,145
Speaker 1: but it's become very studied.

621
00:31:31,705 --> 00:31:35,545
Speaker 2: And does that scare you? Does it give you anxiety? Yeah?

622
00:31:35,625 --> 00:31:40,385
Speaker 1: Totally, And it's an ongoing learning curve For me. I

623
00:31:40,465 --> 00:31:42,145
Speaker 1: think a lot of it comes back to my mental

624
00:31:42,145 --> 00:31:44,185
Speaker 1: health at that point and how capable I am of

625
00:31:44,225 --> 00:31:48,065
Speaker 1: dealing this shit. So if I'm getting into trouble online

626
00:31:48,065 --> 00:31:51,345
Speaker 1: about something that we've done as a brand, if I've

627
00:31:51,465 --> 00:31:54,185
Speaker 1: not been sleeping, if I'm super stressed and already pushed,

628
00:31:54,905 --> 00:31:58,985
Speaker 1: that affects me really a lot more, of course. But

629
00:31:59,025 --> 00:32:01,025
Speaker 1: if I'm in a good, clean state of mind and

630
00:32:01,065 --> 00:32:03,705
Speaker 1: I've been looking after myself, it's amazing the difference you

631
00:32:03,745 --> 00:32:06,105
Speaker 1: can do. So that will always happen, it's just how

632
00:32:06,105 --> 00:32:09,185
Speaker 1: I can react to it, and that's my goal in

633
00:32:09,265 --> 00:32:12,305
Speaker 1: terms of personal improvement as to not being so reactive

634
00:32:12,545 --> 00:32:16,185
Speaker 1: and recognizing it at a moment in time. My people pleasing

635
00:32:16,745 --> 00:32:19,425
Speaker 1: anxious side wants to fix it immediately, and I'm always

636
00:32:19,665 --> 00:32:21,625
Speaker 1: I want to write back and defend ourselves. That's my

637
00:32:21,905 --> 00:32:23,425
Speaker 1: first thing I want to do, and that's the first

638
00:32:23,465 --> 00:32:27,065
Speaker 1: thing you shouldn't do. It's never defend yourself. You know,

639
00:32:27,145 --> 00:32:30,105
Speaker 1: people will be upset about things, and you have to

640
00:32:30,145 --> 00:32:33,745
Speaker 1: be respectful and also know what you know to be right.

641
00:32:34,385 --> 00:32:37,465
Speaker 1: So it's always going to be complicated that parasocial sort

642
00:32:37,465 --> 00:32:40,825
Speaker 1: of relationship, particularly if you feel like you're in trouble,

643
00:32:40,945 --> 00:32:42,785
Speaker 1: because I don't like feeling like I'm in trouble like

644
00:32:42,825 --> 00:32:44,945
Speaker 1: most people, particularly if you don't feel like you've done

645
00:32:44,985 --> 00:32:45,465
Speaker 1: the wrong thing.

646
00:32:45,865 --> 00:32:48,825
Speaker 2: There are examples in the book where there will be

647
00:32:49,025 --> 00:32:53,425
Speaker 2: certain things going on online or even there's like, you know,

648
00:32:53,585 --> 00:32:58,305
Speaker 2: tiny doses of cancel culture sprinkled throughout, which is so

649
00:32:58,465 --> 00:33:00,865
Speaker 2: clever because that is part of what it is to

650
00:33:00,905 --> 00:33:05,145
Speaker 2: be a founder in this day and age. I know

651
00:33:05,265 --> 00:33:09,065
Speaker 2: that sometimes you'll read something about yourself and you're like, Eh, whatever,

652
00:33:09,185 --> 00:33:11,385
Speaker 2: I don't care, And then there are things that really

653
00:33:11,465 --> 00:33:16,105
Speaker 2: upset you and sometimes you can't even articulate why what hurts.

654
00:33:16,665 --> 00:33:18,545
Speaker 2: In the book, there's certain things you can see that

655
00:33:18,745 --> 00:33:21,585
Speaker 2: really get under kit skin. Are there things that get

656
00:33:21,665 --> 00:33:22,465
Speaker 2: under your skin?

657
00:33:23,185 --> 00:33:26,625
Speaker 1: I think it's assuming our intentions were other than what

658
00:33:26,665 --> 00:33:29,665
Speaker 1: they were. So for me, it's everything we do as

659
00:33:29,705 --> 00:33:34,705
Speaker 1: a brand is intended and designed and carefully calculated to

660
00:33:34,825 --> 00:33:40,185
Speaker 1: be joyful and educational and nurturing. That's what our company does,

661
00:33:40,225 --> 00:33:42,345
Speaker 1: and that's why we put all this effort into producing

662
00:33:42,385 --> 00:33:46,785
Speaker 1: products and marketing them. So when people say that you've

663
00:33:46,785 --> 00:33:50,465
Speaker 1: done otherwise, it shouldn't get under my skin, but it

664
00:33:50,505 --> 00:33:53,545
Speaker 1: really does because one of my key areas to work

665
00:33:53,545 --> 00:33:58,185
Speaker 1: on is being defensive when I feel caught out or

666
00:33:58,265 --> 00:34:00,705
Speaker 1: when I'm being accused of something I don't think I did.

667
00:34:01,585 --> 00:34:07,345
Speaker 1: That's my husband. That's fun, so, you know, And there's

668
00:34:07,385 --> 00:34:10,825
Speaker 1: a group of founders that I have that when one

669
00:34:10,865 --> 00:34:12,785
Speaker 1: of us are going through something, we'll all check in

670
00:34:12,825 --> 00:34:16,105
Speaker 1: and just say, hey, remember this is not real. This

671
00:34:16,185 --> 00:34:20,185
Speaker 1: is just work and it will pass, and all of

672
00:34:20,225 --> 00:34:24,145
Speaker 1: those wisdom advices that don't really help, but you've got

673
00:34:24,185 --> 00:34:26,185
Speaker 1: to say it so that you know the inner alone.

674
00:34:26,745 --> 00:34:29,905
Speaker 1: So for me, it's just trying not to be absorb

675
00:34:29,945 --> 00:34:30,945
Speaker 1: them so easily.

676
00:34:32,065 --> 00:34:36,065
Speaker 2: When people are talking about Zoe Foster Blake, online is

677
00:34:36,145 --> 00:34:39,585
Speaker 2: that you. I heard a podcast recently where someone described

678
00:34:39,625 --> 00:34:43,505
Speaker 2: it as a shadow self, Like you're online person. The

679
00:34:43,545 --> 00:34:45,385
Speaker 2: person you are online is not actually who you are.

680
00:34:45,425 --> 00:34:47,825
Speaker 2: It's a shadow self, and if people are attacking that person,

681
00:34:48,585 --> 00:34:50,945
Speaker 2: you can differentiate because you go, that's not actually me,

682
00:34:51,225 --> 00:34:54,905
Speaker 2: that's some avatar image of me that they don't actually know.

683
00:34:55,505 --> 00:34:58,825
Speaker 2: Are you good at that? Or because you're so authentic

684
00:34:58,865 --> 00:35:03,945
Speaker 2: online and you've built your identity with authenticity, is it

685
00:35:03,985 --> 00:35:05,265
Speaker 2: easy to get it confused?

686
00:35:05,545 --> 00:35:07,705
Speaker 1: It's fie, they think, because you write it as an avatar.

687
00:35:08,145 --> 00:35:12,545
Speaker 1: And I generally use social just for work now and

688
00:35:12,585 --> 00:35:18,945
Speaker 1: my cats because I don't feel inspired to share much

689
00:35:18,985 --> 00:35:20,625
Speaker 1: more of my life than that. I don't think I

690
00:35:20,705 --> 00:35:22,705
Speaker 1: need to, and that's why I write fiction, so that

691
00:35:22,745 --> 00:35:25,465
Speaker 1: I can experiences that I have I can weave into

692
00:35:25,505 --> 00:35:27,825
Speaker 1: stories and that's the fun of it. I also don't

693
00:35:27,825 --> 00:35:30,425
Speaker 1: think I'm that interesting, so I don't know why I

694
00:35:30,425 --> 00:35:33,425
Speaker 1: would want to share anything more than I do. I

695
00:35:33,425 --> 00:35:38,385
Speaker 1: think we take it personally just because we're human beings, right,

696
00:35:38,625 --> 00:35:40,825
Speaker 1: and I don't want to ever misstep because it's not

697
00:35:40,865 --> 00:35:44,065
Speaker 1: worth the hassle. But I also am aware that it's

698
00:35:44,105 --> 00:35:46,545
Speaker 1: not a real world, you know, put you feet in

699
00:35:46,585 --> 00:35:48,625
Speaker 1: the grass and need a banana. Just go and be

700
00:35:48,705 --> 00:35:50,585
Speaker 1: back in the real world, play with the kids and

701
00:35:50,745 --> 00:35:53,225
Speaker 1: remember what's really happening. And it's funny because something will

702
00:35:53,265 --> 00:35:57,025
Speaker 1: blow up and you'll be so convinced that everyone's thinking

703
00:35:57,065 --> 00:35:58,745
Speaker 1: about or talking about it, and you'll talk to a

704
00:35:58,745 --> 00:36:00,865
Speaker 1: friend and they're like, what, Yeah, what do you trying

705
00:36:00,865 --> 00:36:02,865
Speaker 1: to do that? And I love those moments because I

706
00:36:02,865 --> 00:36:04,865
Speaker 1: was like, yes, snap out of it, gay, head out

707
00:36:04,865 --> 00:36:07,705
Speaker 1: of your us and get back into nature or whatever's

708
00:36:07,745 --> 00:36:10,185
Speaker 1: going to help. So yeah, they come and go pretty quick.

709
00:36:10,225 --> 00:36:13,385
Speaker 1: I'm pretty good at just going that's not really real life.

710
00:36:13,385 --> 00:36:14,745
Speaker 1: That's not my real life. I'm at home in my

711
00:36:14,785 --> 00:36:17,385
Speaker 1: tractor pants with my kids making dinner. And that's a shiny,

712
00:36:17,425 --> 00:36:20,545
Speaker 1: glimorous girl that someone's got an idea about. It's two

713
00:36:20,585 --> 00:36:21,545
Speaker 1: different things.

714
00:36:23,145 --> 00:36:25,865
Speaker 2: After the break, Zoey talks about the moments where she

715
00:36:25,945 --> 00:36:29,345
Speaker 2: feels the happiest and why there are certain interviews she

716
00:36:29,425 --> 00:36:40,905
Speaker 2: doesn't want to do. Are you happiest when you're writing?

717
00:36:41,705 --> 00:36:44,625
Speaker 1: I am really happy when I'm writing, but I'm like

718
00:36:44,665 --> 00:36:47,305
Speaker 1: a little squirrel who needs treats all the time. So

719
00:36:47,425 --> 00:36:50,305
Speaker 1: I can do deep writing for like maybe an hour

720
00:36:50,385 --> 00:36:52,865
Speaker 1: or two and I feel the same. Then I need something,

721
00:36:53,785 --> 00:36:57,265
Speaker 1: maybe it's a scroll, maybe it's an actual physical scroll.

722
00:37:00,185 --> 00:37:01,545
Speaker 1: And then by the end of the day, I'm dying

723
00:37:01,585 --> 00:37:03,345
Speaker 1: for the gids to get home because I'm I need

724
00:37:03,385 --> 00:37:06,385
Speaker 1: to talk to someone and engage. So I love the

725
00:37:06,425 --> 00:37:09,825
Speaker 1: balance and in fact my perfect sort of days. Bit

726
00:37:09,825 --> 00:37:13,225
Speaker 1: of family, bit of social as in social interaction, a

727
00:37:13,265 --> 00:37:16,865
Speaker 1: bit of writing, and some nature. You know, family time

728
00:37:16,945 --> 00:37:20,425
Speaker 1: is beautiful and built in. I also really love riding

729
00:37:20,465 --> 00:37:22,865
Speaker 1: bikes with my family. I've really found that to be

730
00:37:22,945 --> 00:37:25,825
Speaker 1: a happy place because I can't relax. But that's active

731
00:37:25,865 --> 00:37:28,945
Speaker 1: relaxation for me. I cannot sit still. I don't like

732
00:37:29,025 --> 00:37:32,145
Speaker 1: not being productive. It's a problem I have. So being

733
00:37:32,225 --> 00:37:36,065
Speaker 1: physically moving but in nature and relaxing with my family

734
00:37:36,145 --> 00:37:37,225
Speaker 1: just tick so many boxes.

735
00:37:38,385 --> 00:37:44,825
Speaker 2: You strike me as someone who's somewhat introverted. Oh yes,

736
00:37:44,905 --> 00:37:50,105
Speaker 2: And yet your life is so public and there are

737
00:37:50,545 --> 00:37:52,665
Speaker 2: all sorts of aspects to what you do as a

738
00:37:52,745 --> 00:37:59,345
Speaker 2: career that public facing requires some level of social energy.

739
00:38:00,785 --> 00:38:03,305
Speaker 2: Even as a beauty editor went to like fancy events,

740
00:38:03,385 --> 00:38:06,585
Speaker 2: and now you'll be at the logies, You'll be at

741
00:38:06,625 --> 00:38:11,785
Speaker 2: all these very highly social situations.

742
00:38:12,545 --> 00:38:14,585
Speaker 1: How do you find those we don't get a mini

743
00:38:14,625 --> 00:38:17,065
Speaker 1: at all if you actually think about it, like we'd

744
00:38:17,065 --> 00:38:20,785
Speaker 1: go to the logis and maybe, yeah, that's it. Yeah,

745
00:38:20,825 --> 00:38:23,105
Speaker 1: it does really exhaust me. And I probably had a

746
00:38:23,105 --> 00:38:24,705
Speaker 1: lot more energy for it when I was in my

747
00:38:24,745 --> 00:38:27,825
Speaker 1: twenties and thirties being bedater and so on, But now

748
00:38:28,145 --> 00:38:31,665
Speaker 1: I really noticed that drain. It's only because of thank

749
00:38:31,665 --> 00:38:33,865
Speaker 1: you to social media, like the language around everything, for

750
00:38:33,905 --> 00:38:37,385
Speaker 1: me to understand that I'm a highly social, skilled introvert

751
00:38:37,545 --> 00:38:40,185
Speaker 1: and I can come in big and do the thing,

752
00:38:40,905 --> 00:38:42,825
Speaker 1: and I can be on stage and do a signing

753
00:38:42,905 --> 00:38:46,105
Speaker 1: and whatever and film things, and then I'm like shell.

754
00:38:46,825 --> 00:38:48,505
Speaker 1: Like a lot of us, we would have to go

755
00:38:48,545 --> 00:38:50,465
Speaker 1: home and put myself clothes on and not talk to anybody.

756
00:38:51,265 --> 00:38:53,105
Speaker 1: What I realized as I got older is just just

757
00:38:53,225 --> 00:38:56,225
Speaker 1: leaving time in between those things to regroup, because if

758
00:38:56,225 --> 00:38:58,505
Speaker 1: I don't look after myself, I'm no good to anybody.

759
00:38:58,545 --> 00:39:00,825
Speaker 1: So even with this book tour, I was like, I'm

760
00:39:00,825 --> 00:39:03,345
Speaker 1: not doing back to back events. I'd rather take more

761
00:39:03,385 --> 00:39:06,585
Speaker 1: time and give more give a better version of myself

762
00:39:06,625 --> 00:39:09,385
Speaker 1: to people than be this tired which he's not stringing

763
00:39:09,385 --> 00:39:13,505
Speaker 1: too together. I don't know how like proper successful famous

764
00:39:13,505 --> 00:39:15,825
Speaker 1: people do it like doing a full press tour for

765
00:39:15,945 --> 00:39:19,585
Speaker 1: like a month, or musical theater people on stage every night.

766
00:39:19,665 --> 00:39:21,825
Speaker 1: I just yeah, I don't have it in me at all.

767
00:39:22,025 --> 00:39:24,225
Speaker 2: I'm so fascinated aout it. I've always said my worst

768
00:39:24,305 --> 00:39:27,185
Speaker 2: nightmare I think would be being in the Big Brother House.

769
00:39:27,305 --> 00:39:29,105
Speaker 1: Oh my god. I think about it all the time,

770
00:39:29,785 --> 00:39:31,625
Speaker 1: or Survivor or alone. I have a lot of shows

771
00:39:31,665 --> 00:39:34,305
Speaker 1: I would never go on because I'm like, oh my god,

772
00:39:34,425 --> 00:39:37,785
Speaker 1: imagine having to be just on and then it's like,

773
00:39:38,065 --> 00:39:41,225
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'd probably come across as quite cold, But

774
00:39:41,265 --> 00:39:44,505
Speaker 1: it's not coldness. It's just tired, yes, and anxiety about

775
00:39:44,545 --> 00:39:46,945
Speaker 1: what I'm going to say. Did I say yeah? Did

776
00:39:46,945 --> 00:39:48,265
Speaker 1: I say the wrong thing? Do I say too much?

777
00:39:48,305 --> 00:39:51,425
Speaker 1: Oh my god? So yeah, I am pretty socially anxious.

778
00:39:51,825 --> 00:39:54,825
Speaker 1: Even in my own office with my team. I just yeah,

779
00:39:54,865 --> 00:39:56,345
Speaker 1: I'm a bit of a geice actually at the heart

780
00:39:56,385 --> 00:39:58,625
Speaker 1: of it. But I can do it good in short

781
00:39:58,665 --> 00:40:01,345
Speaker 1: bests and I'm like, I just get that short burst out.

782
00:40:01,385 --> 00:40:04,625
Speaker 1: I'll be right. Do you like interviews, Well, I used

783
00:40:04,625 --> 00:40:06,225
Speaker 1: to be on the other side of them, which is

784
00:40:06,305 --> 00:40:08,985
Speaker 1: probably a bit easier. I don't mind them if it's

785
00:40:08,985 --> 00:40:11,505
Speaker 1: about the work. No, I love I can go so

786
00:40:11,585 --> 00:40:14,465
Speaker 1: deep talking about creativity and marketing and ideas and writing.

787
00:40:14,905 --> 00:40:16,585
Speaker 1: I really love that stuff. I don't get asked it

788
00:40:16,665 --> 00:40:20,345
Speaker 1: very often, though it's not usually the questions that people

789
00:40:20,345 --> 00:40:20,625
Speaker 1: want to.

790
00:40:20,705 --> 00:40:23,585
Speaker 2: Yeah, people are like, let me ask about the gossip

791
00:40:25,985 --> 00:40:35,465
Speaker 2: your career. It spans so many creative industries. And do

792
00:40:35,585 --> 00:40:40,945
Speaker 2: you worry in terms of looking at the future where

793
00:40:40,985 --> 00:40:45,545
Speaker 2: to put your energy and that it's going to be finite,

794
00:40:45,545 --> 00:40:48,625
Speaker 2: like if you look at the next like couple of decades,

795
00:40:49,545 --> 00:40:52,825
Speaker 2: does it feel like you really have to intentionally choose

796
00:40:53,705 --> 00:40:54,905
Speaker 2: where to put your energy.

797
00:40:55,145 --> 00:40:57,865
Speaker 1: I guess you should, but I don't. I love the

798
00:40:58,025 --> 00:41:00,865
Speaker 1: surprise and delight of life, like it could be that

799
00:41:00,985 --> 00:41:04,625
Speaker 1: my all, my husband's work could change big time at

800
00:41:04,665 --> 00:41:06,825
Speaker 1: any point, we could move and we could like anything

801
00:41:06,865 --> 00:41:10,265
Speaker 1: could happen. I also love that writing has no expiration

802
00:41:10,385 --> 00:41:11,825
Speaker 1: date and I can still be doing it when it's

803
00:41:11,865 --> 00:41:14,785
Speaker 1: seventy five unless AI comes in and does a better

804
00:41:14,865 --> 00:41:17,625
Speaker 1: job of it. Be nervous about that. So I feel

805
00:41:17,625 --> 00:41:23,265
Speaker 1: like I'm able to always have that work. Thankfully, I

806
00:41:23,305 --> 00:41:25,905
Speaker 1: don't need to be young or glamorous for it. I

807
00:41:25,945 --> 00:41:28,705
Speaker 1: can just always write, And same with running a business

808
00:41:28,705 --> 00:41:30,505
Speaker 1: and doing it well as long as I have the ideas,

809
00:41:30,585 --> 00:41:32,985
Speaker 1: and I do have so many ideas. It's that not

810
00:41:33,065 --> 00:41:35,425
Speaker 1: the lack of ideas, it's the follow through in the execution,

811
00:41:35,545 --> 00:41:38,185
Speaker 1: and which ones are actually worth backing is probably the

812
00:41:38,225 --> 00:41:40,905
Speaker 1: big question for us. So now I get excited about

813
00:41:40,945 --> 00:41:42,665
Speaker 1: what's next. You never know what could happen. I was

814
00:41:42,705 --> 00:41:45,905
Speaker 1: just like, Oh, I'll be doing my fifties sixties, and

815
00:41:45,905 --> 00:41:48,945
Speaker 1: I'm like, who knows? Who cares? Like, just go for it,

816
00:41:49,025 --> 00:41:52,585
Speaker 1: like could be running for TV or I have no idea.

817
00:41:53,145 --> 00:41:53,905
Speaker 1: I love that.

818
00:41:54,065 --> 00:41:59,785
Speaker 2: When you think about your life, what do you think

819
00:42:00,305 --> 00:42:04,025
Speaker 2: is the thing that when you're an old woman, I'm

820
00:42:04,065 --> 00:42:05,945
Speaker 2: going to say like one hundred and twenty because that's

821
00:42:05,945 --> 00:42:09,345
Speaker 2: how old PA's going to live too. What is it

822
00:42:09,425 --> 00:42:12,305
Speaker 2: when you look back on your life that will have

823
00:42:12,665 --> 00:42:16,625
Speaker 2: made you happy, Like when you really zoom out, what

824
00:42:16,785 --> 00:42:19,185
Speaker 2: is it that is the happiness?

825
00:42:19,385 --> 00:42:23,505
Speaker 1: I think it's human connection. I put that to being

826
00:42:23,545 --> 00:42:27,065
Speaker 1: a good partner, being the kind of parent who doesn't

827
00:42:27,105 --> 00:42:29,785
Speaker 1: fuck up their kids too much. No, I'm going to

828
00:42:29,865 --> 00:42:33,065
Speaker 1: do it without knowing what I'm doing. But that legacy

829
00:42:33,105 --> 00:42:36,625
Speaker 1: of parenting well, which is a full time job now

830
00:42:37,145 --> 00:42:39,945
Speaker 1: as we all know, my Mum's always like, God, your generation,

831
00:42:40,145 --> 00:42:42,625
Speaker 1: you really deep dive on this stuff, and I'm like, yeah,

832
00:42:42,625 --> 00:42:48,385
Speaker 1: well do I. And the connections that I have with

833
00:42:48,745 --> 00:42:50,985
Speaker 1: friends and people in the world. I really think that

834
00:42:51,065 --> 00:42:54,785
Speaker 1: human connection and community also that purpose. Someone asked me that, Da,

835
00:42:54,865 --> 00:42:56,305
Speaker 1: what do you think your purpose is? And it is

836
00:42:56,305 --> 00:42:59,025
Speaker 1: a great question, and I'm not still confident in the answer,

837
00:42:59,065 --> 00:43:01,785
Speaker 1: but I think it might be teaching, and not teaching

838
00:43:01,825 --> 00:43:06,985
Speaker 1: in terms of teaching, but teaching people how to look

839
00:43:07,025 --> 00:43:10,385
Speaker 1: after the skin, teaching people how to do business, teaching

840
00:43:10,385 --> 00:43:13,705
Speaker 1: people how to all the roments and writing relationship stuff

841
00:43:13,705 --> 00:43:16,505
Speaker 1: I did, or even with the picture books, teaching kids

842
00:43:16,745 --> 00:43:19,945
Speaker 1: how to write funny stories. I don't know, but vaguely

843
00:43:19,985 --> 00:43:22,065
Speaker 1: I feel like that's sort of the thread through all

844
00:43:22,105 --> 00:43:25,305
Speaker 1: of them is just that, and not because I'm in

845
00:43:25,305 --> 00:43:28,145
Speaker 1: the position of expertise, but just because I also love

846
00:43:28,185 --> 00:43:29,945
Speaker 1: the example of just being a rap from the bush

847
00:43:29,985 --> 00:43:34,225
Speaker 1: who's come in and with no clue and accidentally done

848
00:43:34,225 --> 00:43:36,745
Speaker 1: a good job of business. I think that's something to

849
00:43:36,785 --> 00:43:39,385
Speaker 1: be proud of, because I know a lot of people

850
00:43:39,545 --> 00:43:41,505
Speaker 1: put a lot more time and energy into learning how

851
00:43:41,545 --> 00:43:46,185
Speaker 1: to business, and I somehow snuck through and did it too.

852
00:43:46,705 --> 00:43:50,545
Speaker 2: Really that's really interesting, that idea of teaching. And I

853
00:43:50,545 --> 00:43:53,825
Speaker 2: do think that that is a thread through your entire

854
00:43:53,865 --> 00:43:56,985
Speaker 2: career because so many people I know who love you.

855
00:43:57,865 --> 00:44:00,305
Speaker 2: People have come in at different moments and like, I've

856
00:44:00,345 --> 00:44:03,065
Speaker 2: got a friend who went through a breakup and you

857
00:44:03,185 --> 00:44:06,945
Speaker 2: were her absolute All she talked about was how you

858
00:44:06,985 --> 00:44:10,265
Speaker 2: were her guru. And when I was pregnant, I had

859
00:44:10,345 --> 00:44:11,985
Speaker 2: all with pelvic page.

860
00:44:12,025 --> 00:44:14,065
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I'm so sorry.

861
00:44:13,785 --> 00:44:17,025
Speaker 2: And I went so deep. I'm like, what do you do?

862
00:44:17,025 --> 00:44:17,225
Speaker 1: Okay?

863
00:44:18,145 --> 00:44:20,745
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, there are all these different avenues where people

864
00:44:20,745 --> 00:44:23,585
Speaker 2: connect to you, and I think it's because you're very

865
00:44:23,665 --> 00:44:27,185
Speaker 2: generous with what you share and how you share it,

866
00:44:27,425 --> 00:44:33,185
Speaker 2: and recommendations and being honest about the things that maybe

867
00:44:33,905 --> 00:44:37,105
Speaker 2: people aren't always honest about. It's like, especially when it

868
00:44:37,105 --> 00:44:39,265
Speaker 2: comes to something like business at the moment, like that,

869
00:44:39,465 --> 00:44:44,345
Speaker 2: so many people are quite they gay, cape gaykeep the

870
00:44:44,385 --> 00:44:45,345
Speaker 2: business information.

871
00:44:45,505 --> 00:44:47,865
Speaker 1: It's weird, isn't that. There's a very specific character in

872
00:44:47,905 --> 00:44:50,745
Speaker 1: the book who is really generous and she's got an

873
00:44:50,745 --> 00:44:53,865
Speaker 1: American sensibility to business, which is very different to Australian,

874
00:44:54,265 --> 00:44:56,625
Speaker 1: which is, oh I know a guy, I'll hook you up.

875
00:44:56,745 --> 00:44:56,985
Speaker 2: Oh no.

876
00:44:57,105 --> 00:44:59,665
Speaker 1: This is and often, unfortunately in Australia, particularly when I

877
00:44:59,705 --> 00:45:03,185
Speaker 1: was starting out, no one would share their chemist or

878
00:45:03,185 --> 00:45:06,825
Speaker 1: their factories or anything they're packaging people. Now, of course

879
00:45:06,905 --> 00:45:08,865
Speaker 1: you've got full service companies that will do that all

880
00:45:08,905 --> 00:45:12,185
Speaker 1: for you to change so much. But I don't want

881
00:45:12,225 --> 00:45:13,585
Speaker 1: to be that guy. I want to be the guy

882
00:45:13,625 --> 00:45:16,065
Speaker 1: that helps everybody. There is enough pie for everybody, and

883
00:45:16,105 --> 00:45:20,545
Speaker 1: I think a greedy gatekeeping mindset it will only come

884
00:45:20,585 --> 00:45:24,345
Speaker 1: back to you. Generosity doesn't cost anything. You're helping so

885
00:45:24,385 --> 00:45:26,345
Speaker 1: many people. I get tearing when people come up to

886
00:45:26,345 --> 00:45:27,945
Speaker 1: me and say, oh, I read record Boss and then

887
00:45:27,985 --> 00:45:29,745
Speaker 1: I gave it to seven of my friends. It really

888
00:45:29,745 --> 00:45:32,625
Speaker 1: really helped, or thank you your face helped my exporer,

889
00:45:32,625 --> 00:45:35,185
Speaker 1: whatever it may be, because I'm like, I didn't intend

890
00:45:35,265 --> 00:45:37,665
Speaker 1: for that to be the outcome, but so that it did.

891
00:45:37,785 --> 00:45:40,305
Speaker 1: Or even like I took your restaurant recommendation with Queenstown,

892
00:45:40,345 --> 00:45:42,785
Speaker 1: I'm like, great, I saved you some time and you

893
00:45:42,825 --> 00:45:45,145
Speaker 1: had a good meal off that. I love that because

894
00:45:45,185 --> 00:45:48,025
Speaker 1: I wish for that. I just want the edit of life. Please?

895
00:45:48,145 --> 00:45:50,425
Speaker 1: Can I have the edit? What supplement do I take?

896
00:45:50,705 --> 00:45:52,665
Speaker 1: What's the meditation app that I should be using? What's

897
00:45:52,665 --> 00:45:55,065
Speaker 1: the book to read? Like clear the clutter and just

898
00:45:55,145 --> 00:45:57,265
Speaker 1: let me get to it. And it's also a bit

899
00:45:57,265 --> 00:46:00,465
Speaker 1: of a fast track to human connection.

900
00:46:00,785 --> 00:46:04,065
Speaker 2: I think it is is that you're able to like

901
00:46:04,145 --> 00:46:06,505
Speaker 2: I went to read a book the other day and

902
00:46:06,545 --> 00:46:08,065
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, yes, it's got recommended to me. And

903
00:46:08,185 --> 00:46:10,145
Speaker 2: I'm like, I saw it old Zowie Instagram.

904
00:46:11,105 --> 00:46:13,865
Speaker 1: It's not recommended. What was it? Do you love it?

905
00:46:13,865 --> 00:46:18,465
Speaker 2: It's the Taffy Yeah, I was like, oh, I loved

906
00:46:18,505 --> 00:46:20,865
Speaker 2: her first book. I must read it and it's brill

907
00:46:21,065 --> 00:46:22,825
Speaker 2: But it is that idea of having somebody you can

908
00:46:22,865 --> 00:46:26,225
Speaker 2: trust and you know their recommendations have served you well

909
00:46:26,225 --> 00:46:29,185
Speaker 2: in the past. You feel connected to them again.

910
00:46:29,225 --> 00:46:31,345
Speaker 1: It's the hoobers because I'm like, who's to say my

911
00:46:31,465 --> 00:46:33,945
Speaker 1: taste is your taste? But it's not like I chose

912
00:46:33,985 --> 00:46:35,905
Speaker 1: that book out of like the usually prize when it's

913
00:46:37,745 --> 00:46:40,305
Speaker 1: I'm like, if you haven't read this, you do, it's amazing.

914
00:46:40,425 --> 00:46:43,505
Speaker 1: But yeah, I like the time saving aspect, and it's

915
00:46:43,545 --> 00:46:45,105
Speaker 1: really just putting out what I want to get back,

916
00:46:45,145 --> 00:46:48,265
Speaker 1: which is, now you recommend me something, you won't help

917
00:46:48,305 --> 00:46:48,865
Speaker 1: each other out.

918
00:46:49,585 --> 00:46:52,585
Speaker 2: What currently keeps you from happiness.

919
00:46:52,625 --> 00:46:57,305
Speaker 1: Keeps me from happiness? I think it's usually sleep I

920
00:46:57,305 --> 00:46:59,585
Speaker 1: think sleep. It's very well known for a lot of

921
00:46:59,585 --> 00:47:04,305
Speaker 1: people that sleep is my number one mental health kryptonite.

922
00:47:04,705 --> 00:47:09,545
Speaker 1: So I prioritize it at all costs. And if I've slept,

923
00:47:09,665 --> 00:47:13,065
Speaker 1: can do anything. I haven't slept on a monster. And

924
00:47:13,105 --> 00:47:16,585
Speaker 1: I've become very good at powernapping to get back on track,

925
00:47:16,705 --> 00:47:19,065
Speaker 1: like to start the day again, to take the nap

926
00:47:19,225 --> 00:47:22,745
Speaker 1: to start fresh, which I think nothing's got a bad stigma,

927
00:47:22,865 --> 00:47:25,065
Speaker 1: but a lot of writers nap. It's better than their

928
00:47:25,065 --> 00:47:28,425
Speaker 1: fourth coffee, or it's a twenty minute meditation, or you're

929
00:47:28,465 --> 00:47:31,345
Speaker 1: going to indra something. So sleep is what keeps me

930
00:47:31,385 --> 00:47:35,585
Speaker 1: from happiness and probably fear a little bit. Just what

931
00:47:35,625 --> 00:47:38,465
Speaker 1: we're going back to before about like putting things out

932
00:47:38,505 --> 00:47:41,145
Speaker 1: into the world and hoping that it hits. And in

933
00:47:41,185 --> 00:47:43,425
Speaker 1: the amount of times we put up a new product

934
00:47:43,505 --> 00:47:45,545
Speaker 1: or a launch or something, and I'm waiting for the

935
00:47:45,585 --> 00:47:47,905
Speaker 1: thing we did wrong. What's going to blindside me here?

936
00:47:48,545 --> 00:47:51,585
Speaker 1: Even with the book, I'm like, you know, have I

937
00:47:51,585 --> 00:47:53,865
Speaker 1: offended someone? Or have I that world we live in

938
00:47:53,865 --> 00:47:56,625
Speaker 1: now where I'm on edge of that vigilance of like

939
00:47:56,865 --> 00:48:00,225
Speaker 1: what can they get me for here? Which is very telling,

940
00:48:00,265 --> 00:48:04,105
Speaker 1: I think. So I'm always aware that that's going to

941
00:48:04,145 --> 00:48:07,265
Speaker 1: happen without trying to pre empt it or manifest it.

942
00:48:07,265 --> 00:48:10,065
Speaker 1: It's a fine line. Yeah, I think I'm happy to

943
00:48:10,105 --> 00:48:11,865
Speaker 1: take risks, but I'm also aware that it's not for everyone,

944
00:48:11,905 --> 00:48:14,145
Speaker 1: and that's okay. I don't want to be for everyone. No,

945
00:48:14,345 --> 00:48:16,425
Speaker 1: I think there's that saying that if you try and

946
00:48:16,465 --> 00:48:21,025
Speaker 1: be for everyone, you are by definition average. So definitely, yeah,

947
00:48:21,625 --> 00:48:25,225
Speaker 1: just find your people and write for them. In terms

948
00:48:25,225 --> 00:48:29,025
Speaker 1: of sleep, because I think maybe a lot of people

949
00:48:29,065 --> 00:48:32,105
Speaker 1: realize the importance of sleep when they have a child

950
00:48:32,225 --> 00:48:34,305
Speaker 1: for the first time and you're like, oh, yeah, I

951
00:48:34,305 --> 00:48:34,945
Speaker 1: thought i'd.

952
00:48:34,745 --> 00:48:38,785
Speaker 2: Been irived before. No lack of sleep. How does that

953
00:48:38,865 --> 00:48:40,425
Speaker 2: manifest in terms of mental health?

954
00:48:40,625 --> 00:48:45,585
Speaker 1: I'm a bitch, I'm snappy with my children, my anxiety ramps,

955
00:48:45,905 --> 00:48:49,745
Speaker 1: I can't write. My dopamine hunting is increased to a

956
00:48:49,825 --> 00:48:54,465
Speaker 1: hundred folds by food, by scrolling, by just silly tasks

957
00:48:54,465 --> 00:48:58,265
Speaker 1: that don't actually need doing. I just feel wayward. So

958
00:48:58,305 --> 00:49:00,905
Speaker 1: I don't have that focus and I really need that.

959
00:49:01,025 --> 00:49:02,985
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, I'm forty four, so perimonopause

960
00:49:03,065 --> 00:49:07,145
Speaker 1: is a real thing. The anxiety and the sleeplessness big thing.

961
00:49:07,425 --> 00:49:11,225
Speaker 1: So I've I've had my diagnostics and I've got something

962
00:49:11,225 --> 00:49:15,985
Speaker 1: to help me sleep now and it's medicinal CBD and

963
00:49:16,585 --> 00:49:20,385
Speaker 1: fabulous hither right And yeah, so I just needed to

964
00:49:21,225 --> 00:49:24,185
Speaker 1: sort that out. Like I said before, anything else would

965
00:49:24,345 --> 00:49:27,385
Speaker 1: work because I have this limit of three nights bad sleep,

966
00:49:27,465 --> 00:49:30,065
Speaker 1: and yeah, I will book a fucking hotel. Yeah, I

967
00:49:30,145 --> 00:49:33,865
Speaker 1: need to sleep. Something's got to give. So yeah, I've

968
00:49:33,905 --> 00:49:35,785
Speaker 1: never got to that stage, but that's how I feel.

969
00:49:36,265 --> 00:49:39,025
Speaker 2: Yeah, because one night you can one night adrenaline. Yeah,

970
00:49:39,025 --> 00:49:41,465
Speaker 2: two nights you feel terrible. Three nights I'm a rash

971
00:49:42,065 --> 00:49:45,105
Speaker 2: I've lost all rationality. And then I actually start convincing

972
00:49:45,145 --> 00:49:47,265
Speaker 2: myself I don't need sleep, and that's when you know

973
00:49:47,385 --> 00:49:50,145
Speaker 2: you've gone nuts. If you're like sleep, who needs sleep?

974
00:49:50,265 --> 00:49:51,425
Speaker 2: And then you're like I need.

975
00:49:53,865 --> 00:49:55,945
Speaker 1: That's very hard. With grown child, it's very hard. And

976
00:49:55,985 --> 00:49:58,665
Speaker 1: I had my anxiety only started when I had children.

977
00:49:58,865 --> 00:50:01,065
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have characterized myself as an anxious person prior

978
00:50:01,065 --> 00:50:03,465
Speaker 1: to that, but a baby who I had to keep

979
00:50:03,465 --> 00:50:06,785
Speaker 1: alive was a big deal, and sleep was not great.

980
00:50:07,065 --> 00:50:09,545
Speaker 1: No bad cycle contributes to it.

981
00:50:09,745 --> 00:50:15,945
Speaker 2: Hmmm, when you are tired, getting defensive, not being your

982
00:50:15,945 --> 00:50:19,905
Speaker 2: best self, are there people around you? Because I think

983
00:50:19,945 --> 00:50:24,745
Speaker 2: sometimes in terms of our happiness. Sometimes we're not even

984
00:50:25,065 --> 00:50:28,505
Speaker 2: the best person to know how to make ourselves happy.

985
00:50:28,545 --> 00:50:30,825
Speaker 2: Sometimes the people around us are way better at saying

986
00:50:30,825 --> 00:50:34,065
Speaker 2: things objectively. Are there people who call you out and

987
00:50:34,065 --> 00:50:34,825
Speaker 2: pull you into line?

988
00:50:35,025 --> 00:50:38,505
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, my husband, he's a very lovely man, and

989
00:50:38,545 --> 00:50:41,185
Speaker 1: it's not his first instinct. He'll usually cop a few

990
00:50:41,185 --> 00:50:43,985
Speaker 1: blows before I'll be like, what's wrong with you? But

991
00:50:43,985 --> 00:50:46,185
Speaker 1: I would have already prefaced it. I'm like, I'm tired,

992
00:50:46,625 --> 00:50:48,945
Speaker 1: I didn't say the worst sleep last night. Why did

993
00:50:48,945 --> 00:50:50,745
Speaker 1: the garbage man came up five in the morning, you know,

994
00:50:50,905 --> 00:50:54,665
Speaker 1: la la lah. So I've already let everybody know. Yeah, yeah,

995
00:50:54,705 --> 00:50:57,185
Speaker 1: so yeah he calls me and of course and my

996
00:50:57,305 --> 00:51:02,705
Speaker 1: kids were just heartbreaking, like what are you mean snappy?

997
00:51:04,025 --> 00:51:07,545
Speaker 1: That's horrible. So yeah, I know when i'm it's a

998
00:51:07,585 --> 00:51:09,465
Speaker 1: wake up in the morning feeling. Yeah, I curad, you know,

999
00:51:09,505 --> 00:51:11,785
Speaker 1: it's I tell myself, oh, you're being a bitch, like

1000
00:51:11,985 --> 00:51:14,665
Speaker 1: sort your shit, and it's twenty minutes. I just need

1001
00:51:14,745 --> 00:51:17,545
Speaker 1: twenty minutes to just go and meditate or something. Yeah,

1002
00:51:17,545 --> 00:51:20,065
Speaker 1: I'm such a better person, and I'm really okay with

1003
00:51:20,185 --> 00:51:22,465
Speaker 1: asking for that now. Like even in big family function

1004
00:51:22,585 --> 00:51:25,785
Speaker 1: moments where by law you're not allowed to just excuse

1005
00:51:25,825 --> 00:51:28,665
Speaker 1: yourself to do anything. But I'm like, ah, I don't

1006
00:51:28,865 --> 00:51:30,945
Speaker 1: like any of you for a minute. I'm going to

1007
00:51:31,025 --> 00:51:32,985
Speaker 1: go just become a nicer person. Then we're gonna have

1008
00:51:32,985 --> 00:51:35,585
Speaker 1: a great day. I think maybe I need to do that.

1009
00:51:35,825 --> 00:51:38,065
Speaker 2: I need to do that in a lot of social situations,

1010
00:51:38,065 --> 00:51:40,265
Speaker 2: because otherwise I push through and I'm like, it's written

1011
00:51:40,305 --> 00:51:43,545
Speaker 2: all over my face. Yes, everybody knows how I'm feeling.

1012
00:51:43,905 --> 00:51:44,865
Speaker 2: I think I'm hiding it.

1013
00:51:44,985 --> 00:51:46,585
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, no, no, no.

1014
00:51:46,865 --> 00:51:49,505
Speaker 2: Right now, you've got a new novel out. Things will

1015
00:51:49,505 --> 00:51:55,345
Speaker 2: calm down soon. You've got a wildly successful business. Are

1016
00:51:55,345 --> 00:51:56,065
Speaker 2: you happy?

1017
00:51:56,385 --> 00:51:59,905
Speaker 1: Yeah, to the point where when this podcast was pitched,

1018
00:51:59,905 --> 00:52:01,825
Speaker 1: I was like, no, I can't do that. I am happy.

1019
00:52:02,785 --> 00:52:06,385
Speaker 1: It won't be very interested genius there and pretend like

1020
00:52:06,505 --> 00:52:08,785
Speaker 1: I'm not the most lucky woman on it.

1021
00:52:08,945 --> 00:52:08,985
Speaker 2: No.

1022
00:52:09,065 --> 00:52:13,265
Speaker 1: I feel not only happy, but thriving. I feel inspired.

1023
00:52:13,425 --> 00:52:17,865
Speaker 1: I feel very fortunate. I know we're not allowed to

1024
00:52:17,905 --> 00:52:20,985
Speaker 1: say lucky, but I do feel lucky. I feel grateful.

1025
00:52:21,105 --> 00:52:28,545
Speaker 1: I think gratitude is my massive antidote to sadness or anger, irritability,

1026
00:52:28,625 --> 00:52:31,985
Speaker 1: is just to switch it to a mindset of gratitude,

1027
00:52:32,185 --> 00:52:35,985
Speaker 1: which does sound like a privileged thing to say, but anyone,

1028
00:52:36,345 --> 00:52:39,385
Speaker 1: no matter your situation, can turn to gratitude. Just for

1029
00:52:39,425 --> 00:52:43,385
Speaker 1: the health of my children, my family, This incredibly fortunate

1030
00:52:43,425 --> 00:52:46,145
Speaker 1: life I'm living. So I'm very happy and I feel

1031
00:52:46,225 --> 00:52:49,105
Speaker 1: excited and compelled, and that is because I took care

1032
00:52:49,145 --> 00:52:52,065
Speaker 1: of myself this year. When I wrote this book, Things

1033
00:52:52,065 --> 00:52:53,905
Speaker 1: will come Down Soon was something I would through out

1034
00:52:53,945 --> 00:52:56,185
Speaker 1: all the time and we would laugh, ha ha, No

1035
00:52:56,305 --> 00:52:59,025
Speaker 1: it won't, hammershould like that is your life, you idiot,

1036
00:52:59,065 --> 00:53:02,105
Speaker 1: you know, come on. But then this June, I actually

1037
00:53:02,145 --> 00:53:04,465
Speaker 1: for the first time had a proper break from work

1038
00:53:04,545 --> 00:53:06,865
Speaker 1: because the book was in at the printere when you

1039
00:53:06,905 --> 00:53:10,665
Speaker 1: can't do anymore except start publicity and go to is

1040
00:53:10,665 --> 00:53:12,625
Speaker 1: in a bit of a production phase that there was

1041
00:53:12,665 --> 00:53:15,465
Speaker 1: a lull and I was able to just take a

1042
00:53:15,505 --> 00:53:18,785
Speaker 1: couple of weeks to not be the sort of level

1043
00:53:18,785 --> 00:53:21,705
Speaker 1: of stress Kit is in Living Dead Yay, which was

1044
00:53:21,785 --> 00:53:23,425
Speaker 1: very normal for me for about three years because I

1045
00:53:23,465 --> 00:53:25,505
Speaker 1: had two deals and a novel and day to day

1046
00:53:25,545 --> 00:53:28,865
Speaker 1: work and young family, and I felt like a different

1047
00:53:28,905 --> 00:53:30,945
Speaker 1: person because I was very burnt out at the start

1048
00:53:30,985 --> 00:53:33,825
Speaker 1: of the year, burnt out at Jason and I went

1049
00:53:33,865 --> 00:53:36,065
Speaker 1: to a health camp, which I hadn't done since for

1050
00:53:36,145 --> 00:53:39,665
Speaker 1: eight years, and I was a different person when I

1051
00:53:39,705 --> 00:53:41,465
Speaker 1: came back. And I remember at the start of this year,

1052
00:53:41,505 --> 00:53:44,425
Speaker 1: my mum, which always does my neurology, She's like, you're

1053
00:53:44,465 --> 00:53:46,905
Speaker 1: in a seven year Fuck it, I need to be

1054
00:53:46,945 --> 00:53:49,225
Speaker 1: in a four year four years of work. Here, she goes,

1055
00:53:49,305 --> 00:53:51,865
Speaker 1: you've done your four years year, You're in a seven

1056
00:53:51,945 --> 00:53:53,945
Speaker 1: year And I'm like, but that's like it's inner and

1057
00:53:53,985 --> 00:53:56,385
Speaker 1: it's meditative and you learn new skills and you'll take

1058
00:53:56,385 --> 00:53:58,505
Speaker 1: care of yourself and you go in and she said,

1059
00:53:58,545 --> 00:54:00,225
Speaker 1: but can't you see how important that is in this year?

1060
00:54:00,225 --> 00:54:01,625
Speaker 1: And I'm like, no, no, this is my big year.

1061
00:54:01,665 --> 00:54:03,945
Speaker 1: This is our go two s tenth birthday, my book's out,

1062
00:54:03,985 --> 00:54:06,345
Speaker 1: I've got two children's books out. I need to be

1063
00:54:06,385 --> 00:54:08,665
Speaker 1: the peacock this year. And she said, but you can't

1064
00:54:08,665 --> 00:54:10,705
Speaker 1: do any of that if you haven't after yourself. And

1065
00:54:10,745 --> 00:54:14,785
Speaker 1: so that's why I have boundaries around eventing or filming

1066
00:54:14,865 --> 00:54:16,385
Speaker 1: or anything that takes a lot of energy from me.

1067
00:54:16,625 --> 00:54:19,145
Speaker 1: And all family time, weekend is family time, and all

1068
00:54:19,225 --> 00:54:22,185
Speaker 1: of those boundaries are in place to protect me so

1069
00:54:22,225 --> 00:54:23,785
Speaker 1: that I can do better work and have a better

1070
00:54:23,825 --> 00:54:27,945
Speaker 1: mindset and be happier and sleep. You know, sleep our

1071
00:54:28,025 --> 00:54:31,105
Speaker 1: whole family. I made them obsessed about sleep. The kids

1072
00:54:31,145 --> 00:54:35,545
Speaker 1: don't care aish and I are very devout sleep. Sleep

1073
00:54:35,625 --> 00:54:36,185
Speaker 1: is our religion.

1074
00:54:36,945 --> 00:54:41,505
Speaker 2: Do you feel like now that the book is out

1075
00:54:41,785 --> 00:54:45,905
Speaker 2: and the business, I mean, as somebody who doesn't understand

1076
00:54:45,985 --> 00:54:48,345
Speaker 2: business at all, the business isn't a really good place.

1077
00:54:48,705 --> 00:54:49,625
Speaker 2: Have things calm down?

1078
00:54:49,865 --> 00:54:51,505
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I mean. Like it's a weird time

1079
00:54:51,545 --> 00:54:53,705
Speaker 1: to be talking about the book because things did calm

1080
00:54:53,745 --> 00:54:59,305
Speaker 1: down for June and now I'm busy again. But I

1081
00:54:59,345 --> 00:55:02,185
Speaker 1: think I needed to know that it could calm down,

1082
00:55:03,025 --> 00:55:05,905
Speaker 1: that the soon was coming. Yeah, I just I needed

1083
00:55:05,945 --> 00:55:07,705
Speaker 1: to know it was a fact, not just this myth

1084
00:55:07,865 --> 00:55:11,265
Speaker 1: of this carrot dangling of like one. So I know

1085
00:55:11,385 --> 00:55:13,905
Speaker 1: it can be calm And I know this. It's on me.

1086
00:55:14,305 --> 00:55:17,985
Speaker 1: It's how much I undertake. But I love new projects,

1087
00:55:18,025 --> 00:55:19,825
Speaker 1: you know, I love studying a new book. I'm already

1088
00:55:19,825 --> 00:55:22,025
Speaker 1: excited to write a new book. I like to be busy.

1089
00:55:22,105 --> 00:55:23,825
Speaker 1: I like to be working. I like to do good

1090
00:55:23,865 --> 00:55:25,945
Speaker 1: work to the point where even if they weren't published

1091
00:55:25,945 --> 00:55:27,545
Speaker 1: and weren't read, and I would still want to do it.

1092
00:55:28,225 --> 00:55:32,585
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's me not starting a new project too quickly,

1093
00:55:32,585 --> 00:55:34,185
Speaker 1: and I've got to hold myself back. I'm like, get

1094
00:55:34,225 --> 00:55:37,665
Speaker 1: this baby out fast. Please just focus on this book,

1095
00:55:37,705 --> 00:55:41,265
Speaker 1: don't stund new one yet. So I'm back. Feels good.

1096
00:55:41,905 --> 00:55:43,425
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for your time today.

1097
00:55:43,425 --> 00:55:44,385
Speaker 1: I really appreciate it.

1098
00:55:47,065 --> 00:55:49,625
Speaker 2: That's all we've got time for on today's episode of

1099
00:55:49,625 --> 00:55:53,065
Speaker 2: That Are You Happy. Zoe Foster Blake's latest novel about

1100
00:55:53,105 --> 00:55:55,665
Speaker 2: the chaos of business and being a founder and juggling

1101
00:55:55,705 --> 00:55:58,625
Speaker 2: a family between it all, is called Things Will Calm

1102
00:55:58,665 --> 00:56:01,225
Speaker 2: Down Soon, and it's out on the first of October.

1103
00:56:01,665 --> 00:56:03,985
Speaker 2: It's brilliant and I can promise you will not be

1104
00:56:04,065 --> 00:56:06,985
Speaker 2: able to put it down. But it's also incredibly insightful

1105
00:56:07,185 --> 00:56:10,225
Speaker 2: and challenges a lot of ideas we hold about and

1106
00:56:10,305 --> 00:56:13,785
Speaker 2: money and success and power. Will pop a link into

1107
00:56:13,825 --> 00:56:18,705
Speaker 2: the show notes. This conversation went beyond the veneer of

1108
00:56:18,785 --> 00:56:23,065
Speaker 2: the glamorous, aspirational life of Zoe Foster Blake to the charismatic,

1109
00:56:23,185 --> 00:56:26,465
Speaker 2: clever and generous person who sat opposite me in the studio.

1110
00:56:27,105 --> 00:56:29,425
Speaker 2: I want to thank her for everything she shared in

1111
00:56:29,465 --> 00:56:32,625
Speaker 2: our conversation. And if there's anyone you know who you

1112
00:56:32,705 --> 00:56:35,545
Speaker 2: think might get something out of this episode, please share

1113
00:56:35,585 --> 00:56:37,745
Speaker 2: it with them. If you want to recommend anyone for

1114
00:56:37,785 --> 00:56:40,345
Speaker 2: the show, you can message me on Instagram and if

1115
00:56:40,385 --> 00:56:43,225
Speaker 2: you like the show, leave us a review. We always

1116
00:56:43,345 --> 00:56:47,825
Speaker 2: love your feedback. Next week, I speak to Amy Shark

1117
00:56:47,905 --> 00:56:52,585
Speaker 2: about the tension of getting everything you ever wanted. The

1118
00:56:52,625 --> 00:56:55,625
Speaker 2: executive producer, but are you Happy, is Niama Brown and

1119
00:56:55,705 --> 00:56:59,265
Speaker 2: the producer is Charlie Blackman. Audio editing by Scott Stronnick.

1120
00:56:59,625 --> 00:57:02,305
Speaker 2: I'm your host, Claire Stevens, and we'll see you next week.