Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to biz. Your work life sorted and
Speaker 2: welcome to the new era of BIZ. It is going
Speaker 2: to be like a tailor swift era. We're going to
Speaker 2: go through it all, but we are going to give
Speaker 2: you a whole bunch of new things to work through,
Speaker 2: like some more knowledge for you. It's also going to
Speaker 2: be really fun and exciting, because work and career can
Speaker 2: be fun and exciting. We also have a new co host,
Speaker 2: Lisa Welcome to Biz.
Speaker 1: Hey am, I'm Lisa Lee.
Speaker 3: I'm a former head of People in Culture and organizational
Speaker 3: coach and the founder of Learner, a micro learning app
Speaker 3: that helps you build the people skills to solve real
Speaker 3: work problems fast.
Speaker 2: I've been using Learner a lot. It's so good. I
Speaker 2: highly recommend everyone to jump on it. We'll put a
Speaker 2: link in our show notes so you can download it
Speaker 2: from the app store. I don't think I've probably introduced
Speaker 2: myself on this podcast either. I'm m Vernon, associate editor
Speaker 2: and host. Here at Mama Mia, we are very very
Speaker 2: excited to be stepping into the hosting chairs of BIZ
Speaker 2: for our Tuesday episodes. First and foremost, we have to
Speaker 2: thank Michelle Batisby and so Hurst, our brilliant career coaches
Speaker 2: from season one. They did an incredible job launching Biz
Speaker 2: Tuesday's episodes and they will be dearly missed. But we
Speaker 2: can't wait to keep bringing you all the practical advice
Speaker 2: inside of knowledge you've come to expect from us. So,
Speaker 2: whether you're a regular or you've just dropped in, welcome
Speaker 2: to the next chapter of BIZ. We are here for
Speaker 2: real and practical conversations about career growth, leadership, and how
Speaker 2: to make work actually work on your terms.
Speaker 3: Today we're diving into a topic that's definitely hit me
Speaker 3: hard at different points in my career.
Speaker 1: The workaholic trap.
Speaker 3: You know, it feeling like you should always be working,
Speaker 3: even when you're not sure it's getting you anywhere.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like that always on, right, Like you are
Speaker 2: constantly thinking about work, and when you're not thinking about work,
Speaker 2: it's because you're doing work and that's it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're always on feeling exactly, And I think a
Speaker 3: lot of us, especially if you came up on that
Speaker 3: girl boss hustle culture stage of life, have fallen into
Speaker 3: this trap at some point because it's what was expected
Speaker 3: of us and it's where we saw people achieving and
Speaker 3: so success. So today when I'm packing, why it happens,
Speaker 3: how to spot it in yourself, and most importantly, how
Speaker 3: to start breaking free from it?
Speaker 2: Okay Li. So we asked around about the workaholic tendencies
Speaker 2: and the confessions we got. Well, yes, some of them
Speaker 2: were very funny, also very concerning. Here's what we got.
Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Alicia and I'm a bit of a workaholic.
Speaker 2: I haven't taken a proper holiday in three years because
Speaker 2: I'm afraid everything will fall apart without me. Three years
Speaker 2: is insane, I know.
Speaker 1: Let me just swish off.
Speaker 4: Hi.
Speaker 1: I'm Ella and I'm a workaholic.
Speaker 2: I have no boundaries.
Speaker 1: I've even replied to emails during my kids' school concerts.
Speaker 1: Email addictions real, it is real.
Speaker 2: I feel slightly better about mine.
Speaker 1: Hi.
Speaker 4: I'm Tina and I'm a bit of a workaholic. I
Speaker 4: never have my work notifications turned off. I'm always free
Speaker 4: to answer the phone no matter what time it is,
Speaker 4: Constantly getting back to emails day and night. I've got
Speaker 4: a bit of a problem.
Speaker 2: No, Tina, there's no good near switch off girl.
Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Zara and I'm a workaholic.
Speaker 3: I really love what I do, but I've worked through
Speaker 3: every public holiday this year.
Speaker 1: It's a tough one. I relate to that hard related holiday.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's no good.
Speaker 3: I talk to so many people at the moment who
Speaker 3: are coming in and out of this workaholic trap too. Sorry,
Speaker 3: there's a lot of people feeling it. I think we
Speaker 3: should talk about where this trap actually starts, because it
Speaker 3: usually doesn't just come from nowhere. For me, it built
Speaker 3: up really early, and it built up from something really simple,
Speaker 3: like I work hard.
Speaker 1: You've picked that up already done a few things.
Speaker 3: I've always really enjoyed what I do, though, and so
Speaker 3: I've confused those things and I wanted to be someone
Speaker 3: that people could rely on. So I've always been rewarded
Speaker 3: for that as well, like promotions, you know, being the
Speaker 3: go to, always delivering, always pushing to do better and
Speaker 3: being known for it, and when something's working, you've really
Speaker 3: double down on it. So that kind of reinforcement became
Speaker 3: quite powerful for me. You know, the stories that you
Speaker 3: start to tell yourself if I work hard, then I'm rewarded,
Speaker 3: and it's really like what is your definition of working hard?
Speaker 1: Right? That behavior became part of how I.
Speaker 3: Operated all the time throughout my career, and you know
Speaker 3: as well as I do, that that is not sustainable.
Speaker 3: So the trap is that the more that you become
Speaker 3: that person, the harder it is to stop. Like people
Speaker 3: expect it, you expect it of yourself, and before you
Speaker 3: know it, working all the time just becomes the norm.
Speaker 3: And it can work for a while, and it did
Speaker 3: work for me for quite a while, but there's always
Speaker 3: a point where you hit a limit.
Speaker 1: Something shifts.
Speaker 3: Maybe it's your energy, maybe it's your priority, it's something
Speaker 3: in your personal life change.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 1: Yes, generally you.
Speaker 3: Can and workaholic yourself into burnout right, whatever it is.
Speaker 3: You realize then that this way of working is not
Speaker 3: working for me and it's not going to get me
Speaker 3: to where I want to go next.
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you relate with like being this workaholic?
Speaker 2: I think in the beginning of my career, I definitely
Speaker 2: was a workaholic, especially when I first started this job
Speaker 2: here at Muma Mea, because I started here when I
Speaker 2: was quite young. I've talked about this many times. I
Speaker 2: think I was like twenty one turning twenty two or
Speaker 2: something like that, and now I'm twenty nine and I
Speaker 2: remember when I started, the only person I knew who
Speaker 2: had like the big career that I wanted to achieve
Speaker 2: was my mom. Like she was just like big boss
Speaker 2: energy and she was a workaholic, and I was like,
Speaker 2: that's what I have to do. And I remember I
Speaker 2: was doing like I started here and everyone was like
Speaker 2: go home, go, Like it was crazy. I was so
Speaker 2: young and I would be here to like eight pm,
Speaker 2: doing like a meaningless task that I didn't really need
Speaker 2: to do, and I just wanted to do it and
Speaker 2: show that I could do it. And I feel like
Speaker 2: it's generational, right, Like I feel like a certain generation
Speaker 2: awarded that kind of work. And that's kind of shifting
Speaker 2: now now that like millennials and older gen zs becoming managers,
Speaker 2: it's more respectful to not have to rely on people
Speaker 2: to show that they're literally dying for the job. Yes,
Speaker 2: And I used to be so annoyed because I would
Speaker 2: see young girls come into work working hard, but not
Speaker 2: going above and beyond and pushing themselves as much as
Speaker 2: I did when I first this job, and I was like,
Speaker 2: why are they also achieving the same things I achieved?
Speaker 2: And then I realized it's not because they're not working hard,
Speaker 2: it's because I'm a workaholic.
Speaker 3: Yes, I think that's really interesting. The point you rise
Speaker 3: around the people around you. So when I was a workaholic,
Speaker 3: one of my fasors of being a workaholic, I was
Speaker 3: also a team leader, and there are a group of
Speaker 3: people around me. We were a really high performing team,
Speaker 3: and I often wondered to myself, like did I recruit
Speaker 3: workaholics or did I teach them to become workaholics.
Speaker 2: That's actually such a good point because I do think, yeah,
Speaker 2: exactly what you said. It's STI your environment and even
Speaker 2: like I guess the people you keep in your lifestyle
Speaker 2: as well, because I feel like the one point in
Speaker 2: your life where you can switch off and not be
Speaker 2: workaholic is when you're not at work. But then all
Speaker 2: my friends and my closest friends are also in the
Speaker 2: same line and work at me. Like they're all journalists,
Speaker 2: all workaholic. So even when we're like out of drinks,
Speaker 2: out a dinner, it's like, what are you doing at work?
Speaker 2: What's going on the work? Everyone knows everyone. It's just
Speaker 2: one of those things where it can filter into your
Speaker 2: life without you even realizing it.
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly, and what you were saying earlier about your mum, right,
Speaker 3: and that was your image. I think it becomes the
Speaker 3: stories that we tell ourselves as well. One of my
Speaker 3: stories that I was telling myself was that you know,
Speaker 3: people can rely on me. Therefore I don't want to
Speaker 3: let people down, and so I'll keep working to make
Speaker 3: sure that I'm not letting anyone else down. I mentioned
Speaker 3: to you earlier there was this tipping point for me
Speaker 3: last year in this I think I've always been a
Speaker 3: bit of a work colic, like we always have really
Speaker 3: good work ethic, and it's varied into stages of being
Speaker 3: good work ethic into workaholic and back again.
Speaker 1: But last year was.
Speaker 3: Huge for me because I worked myself basically into burnout
Speaker 3: twice twice, Yes, twice in one year. It's quite a lot, right, So,
Speaker 3: as I was coming through the second point of realizing
Speaker 3: that I'd hit burnout, I was like, something has got
Speaker 3: to change.
Speaker 2: How did you realize that you hit burnout?
Speaker 3: There's a couple of signs, and I think you have
Speaker 3: a podcast and we'll link to it in the show
Speaker 3: notes around the actual signs of burnout. But there's this
Speaker 3: feeling of like absolute physical and mental exhaustion. Yeah, and
Speaker 3: to the point where you just like stare at the
Speaker 3: screen and not like get anything done. You're like, oh,
Speaker 3: I just don't even know where to start, so you
Speaker 3: almost like crippled by it. Yeah, the exhaustion was a big,
Speaker 3: big sign for me because I hadn't really felt that way.
Speaker 3: It's like almost for me, it was like having the
Speaker 3: flu that feeling. Yeah, physically seeing yeah, exactly, And so
Speaker 3: the physical part of them, like right, at some point
Speaker 3: you have to listen to your body and realize that
Speaker 3: it's trying to tell you something. And so for me
Speaker 3: last year, that was the point where I'm like, Okay,
Speaker 3: I need to find out more about this and I
Speaker 3: need to figure out a better way of.
Speaker 1: Working going forward.
Speaker 3: So that's when I started paying attention to the signs,
Speaker 3: and honestly, they weren't really dramatic. Like I mentioned one
Speaker 3: before was like just feeling really physically tired. But it
Speaker 3: can also be small stuff that leads into this, like
Speaker 3: identifying that you're in workholic mode. So one you said
Speaker 3: before like must be on twenty four to seven. Yeah,
Speaker 3: another one was mine. I was very guilty of this,
Speaker 3: thinking about how you can free out more time to work.
Speaker 2: So, oh my god, I've done this. Ye. It's embarrassing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And do you know what when you clock in
Speaker 3: your head you're like, ooh, I don't think that's quite right.
Speaker 3: Like I was calculating mentally, like if that happened, then
Speaker 3: I could actually squeeze in an hour here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you've done that.
Speaker 2: I've done that. My big tell is when I wake
Speaker 2: up and the first thing I do is check my
Speaker 2: cycle or check my emails yep, because it usually is
Speaker 2: check Instagram, which is it as unhealthy? Yes, but it's
Speaker 2: a social app versus a work app. Exactly when when
Speaker 2: I wake up and I'm like, what happened on CYC
Speaker 2: when I was sleep? Like, nothing's happened. Everyone else was
Speaker 2: asleep as well. But it's just one of those things
Speaker 2: where I'm like, oh, I'm dipping in again.
Speaker 3: Yes, as one hundred percent of sign One of my
Speaker 3: signs as well was that thinking TV was a waste
Speaker 3: of time, wouldn't you be doing something productive with your time?
Speaker 3: Relaxing is a waste of time? Is something I actually
Speaker 3: set out loud.
Speaker 2: My god, my mom would love here, which.
Speaker 1: It's not right.
Speaker 3: And I've gone through this whole process of understanding that
Speaker 3: we are more like athletes than we realize at work,
Speaker 3: like we need athletes. Don't go around going I must
Speaker 3: play game day every single day. There's like rest and
Speaker 3: recovery and training and things like that built into it.
Speaker 3: That was a really good analogy for me to like go, Okay,
Speaker 3: something has to shift here. Yeah. I also think like
Speaker 3: it's worth touching on him that there are points in
Speaker 3: your career where you do want to or have to
Speaker 3: work hard and like you want to dig in, right.
Speaker 3: You know, there are times in my career where I
Speaker 3: was working on certain projects and really good opportunities and
Speaker 3: I'm sure you'd like resonate with this, and I did
Speaker 3: have to dig deep, but it wasn't twenty four to
Speaker 3: seven and it wasn't every day yeah week as well.
Speaker 3: And so that's not all we're talking about here. We're saying, yes,
Speaker 3: work hard at points, but don't make it a habit.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I have a running joke here at Mama Mia
Speaker 2: and I've told founder Maya and my manager Eliza, who's
Speaker 2: head of content, and I've said I probably give about
Speaker 2: eighty percent on myself at work, and they were like, what, like,
Speaker 2: should you be telling me this yes, and I was like,
Speaker 2: I actually think it's quite true because one hundred percent
Speaker 2: for me, like the way I work is workaholic level. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Like if you want me at one hundred percent, just
Speaker 2: know I'm going to be burnt out in two months,
Speaker 2: Whereas like eighty percent is my sweet spot. Like I
Speaker 2: know when to clock off, I know when to relax,
Speaker 2: I know when to take my break. I know if
Speaker 2: I need to start a bit later, if I finish
Speaker 2: a bit earlier. Because I'm confident that I am a
Speaker 2: good worker and I'm confident that I work hard and
Speaker 2: I have to do these little things. And in my
Speaker 2: head when I say eighty percent, it helps me bring
Speaker 2: it back. Yes, And I don't mean like if you
Speaker 2: aren't working hard, don't do that.
Speaker 1: Yes, please work a little bit hard.
Speaker 2: Aplays work a little bit hard, like you need to
Speaker 2: know exactly where your libbit is. And because I'm a
Speaker 2: numbers girl, so when I put a number to that,
Speaker 2: I'm like, Okay, if I feel myself going to ninety
Speaker 2: and be like, you can do ninety for a little bit,
Speaker 2: but just know if you keep going, it's gonna like
Speaker 2: fizzle out.
Speaker 3: Yes, you obviously had to learn that though, because you
Speaker 3: were telling me before that you went through a period
Speaker 3: of being like full work zone. Was there a moment
Speaker 3: where you realize that you could take that shift.
Speaker 2: I think it was a moment when I realized that
Speaker 2: people who aren't workaholics were achieving the exact same things
Speaker 2: I were. So I think my workaholicism came from what
Speaker 2: I was getting out of my job. Yeah, And when
Speaker 2: I realized I could still get the same things out
Speaker 2: of my job by like relaxing a little bit, I
Speaker 2: was like, oh, this is great. I don't need to
Speaker 2: do that. Like, I think I go into waves as well. Yes,
Speaker 2: exactly what you said, Like, there will be times in
Speaker 2: my career, which is right now, because I've got like
Speaker 2: a new job and I want to be the best
Speaker 2: of the best at it. So there will be times
Speaker 2: like now where I will probably tap into that workaholicism.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but there will.
Speaker 2: Be times where I know I have to pull it
Speaker 2: back because I don't want to burn out. So I
Speaker 2: do think you will go through waves in your career
Speaker 2: where you will have to work a bit harder. Then
Speaker 2: sometimes you can just like take a back seat, still
Speaker 2: work up, take a bit of a backseat and just
Speaker 2: be aware of that. Like, I think, once you're actually
Speaker 2: aware of your pattern, then it makes it so much
Speaker 2: easier to control.
Speaker 3: I love that you've already told your managers about this
Speaker 3: as well, so they're not going like I.
Speaker 2: Told them as a joke. And then I was like, actually,
Speaker 2: I think I'm quite serious about that.
Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, because then they're not going like, what is
Speaker 3: this whiplash? Like one day em is like working on
Speaker 3: this level, and now she's working on this level. They're
Speaker 3: aware that you're managing your own energy, which is awesome.
Speaker 3: One of the things I've grappled with is up until recently,
Speaker 3: there hasn't really been a way to differentiate.
Speaker 1: A hard worker from a workaholic. Yes, but we found something.
Speaker 2: Yes we did. When you showed me this, I was like,
Speaker 2: I am going to show everyone this. So the Department
Speaker 2: of Psychosocial Science at the University of Bergen in Norway
Speaker 2: developed a work addiction scale based on specific symptoms that
Speaker 2: characterize a workaholic, and they came up with seven signs
Speaker 2: and they said that if you answer often or always
Speaker 2: to any of these signs, you may have workaholic tendencies
Speaker 2: and brace yourselves because they are quite like simple things
Speaker 2: that I didn't even realize were signs of a workaholic.
Speaker 2: So number one, you think of how you can free
Speaker 2: up more time to work, which is exactly what we did.
Speaker 4: Yes.
Speaker 2: Number two, you spend much more time working than initially intended.
Speaker 3: Which I find this one so hard because I really
Speaker 3: enjoy what I do, and so sometimes I need to
Speaker 3: go Okay, enough.
Speaker 2: Now, enough, now please do Number three you work in
Speaker 2: order to reduce feelings of guilt, anxiety, helplessness, and slash
Speaker 2: or depression.
Speaker 1: Well, I just told you about the guilt factor. Let
Speaker 1: anyone down.
Speaker 2: Yes, And I think this also comes in with the
Speaker 2: generational thing, like what certain generations expect. Like I have
Speaker 2: a friend whose boss is always like so they manage
Speaker 2: a team, and then their boss overseas like three teams, okay,
Speaker 2: And with my friend's team, a lot of them work
Speaker 2: from home. Her boss comes in and she's like everyone's
Speaker 2: working from home again, what the hell? And she's like,
Speaker 2: I'm the most successful team. Like you've seen the numbers,
Speaker 2: You've seen how hard we work. And then he realized
Speaker 2: he was like, oh my god, yeah, I don't have
Speaker 2: to see them to know that they're working. Yes, correct,
Speaker 2: that's a really good example. I hope he's listening. Number four,
Speaker 2: you have been told by others to cut down on
Speaker 2: work without listening to them. Oh, that's a bit of
Speaker 2: a red fight to me.
Speaker 3: Last year, I flew to Sydney for the Tailor Swift
Speaker 3: concert and I took my work laptop with me, not
Speaker 3: to the concert on the plane.
Speaker 1: On the plane and my girlfriend's like, do you need
Speaker 1: to do that right now?
Speaker 3: I'm like, I'm just gonna quickly catch up because you know,
Speaker 3: like idle time, and.
Speaker 2: What did you get done during that time?
Speaker 1: Edited some content? It was good, But did it really
Speaker 1: need to have that?
Speaker 2: She'd have been editing as you had the Tailor Swift
Speaker 2: cons out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, exactly. I still really enjoyed the concert though, Okay,
Speaker 1: good good, good guy.
Speaker 2: I didn't get tickets, so I'm pretty stressed out about that.
Speaker 4: Five.
Speaker 2: Speaking about stress, you become stressed if you are prohibited
Speaker 2: from working. This one rings so true to me, does it.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: If I go on a holiday, I make it a
Speaker 2: point to delete my cyc An email and I give
Speaker 2: my numbers to the people who need my number in
Speaker 2: a case that's an emergency. I'm a journalist. I'm a podcaster.
Speaker 2: What kind of emergency I know I think they need
Speaker 2: from me.
Speaker 3: This is what someone said to me last year when
Speaker 3: I was saying, I get up and I check my
Speaker 3: emails and it's five am, and they're like, you don't
Speaker 3: have a global team, Like are you the CEO of
Speaker 3: a fourteen five thousand business or whatever?
Speaker 1: It is so like, no.
Speaker 2: If you're a surgeon, different story. Yeah, but not all
Speaker 2: of us are saving lives. No, okay, number six, you
Speaker 2: deprioritize hobbies, leisure activities, and or exercise because of your work.
Speaker 2: Oh i' mean this right now?
Speaker 1: Actually are you? Yeah?
Speaker 2: And I'm paying every week. I haven't gone to a
Speaker 2: polarates class in a month.
Speaker 3: Oh see, I've come out of the other side because
Speaker 3: last year I would work really hard and then I
Speaker 3: would thrash myself really hard at like some like body
Speaker 3: fit kind of situation. So either yeah, yeah, even this
Speaker 3: year on like full pilates zen must must be part
Speaker 3: of my day kind of situation to.
Speaker 2: Bring it back. Yeah, it's hard though, especially the hobby stuff. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Like it's kind of like literally what you said, like,
Speaker 2: why would you waste your time watching TV?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 2: But like why would we waste the time doing stuff
Speaker 2: that's not work.
Speaker 1: Because it fills our cup and we're not here just
Speaker 1: to work.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, okay. Number seven, you work so much that
Speaker 2: it has negatively influenced your health. This is a big one.
Speaker 2: I was burnt out. I can't remember what year it was.
Speaker 2: I became so physically sick. I had to take three
Speaker 2: weeks off work.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I went to the doctor that was like,
Speaker 2: felt like the flu, but no flu symptoms, and I
Speaker 2: was sleeping for fifteen hours a day. It was just
Speaker 2: like full exhaustion, like my body couldn't deal with it.
Speaker 2: And my doctor was like, because we're quite close, so
Speaker 2: he sees like all my articles and stuff, so you
Speaker 2: know how much I work. And he was like, I
Speaker 2: think you've like burnt yourself out. And that was the
Speaker 2: first time a doctor has told me I was burnt out.
Speaker 1: I think are also much more aware of it.
Speaker 3: And if you are listening along to this and you're
Speaker 3: experiencing these kind of symptoms, go and talk to someone
Speaker 3: about it. It's so important, whether it's a close friend
Speaker 3: or your gp. Because while we can laugh about coming
Speaker 3: through this now and everything, it is like something impacts
Speaker 3: your life.
Speaker 2: You need to work out, and your workplace should be
Speaker 2: on your side. Like I'm so lucky here at Mom
Speaker 2: and mea where we take burnout very seriously. It's like,
Speaker 2: go do your thing that's working yourself where like be
Speaker 2: aware that there will be some workplaces that they're like,
Speaker 2: it's still such a new thing, right, like the concept
Speaker 2: of burnout. There's still places where they're like, what do
Speaker 2: you mean.
Speaker 3: I mean I started my career in advertising and this
Speaker 3: is like penal City.
Speaker 1: I know, this is like fifteen years.
Speaker 3: Ago as well when it started, and it was like
Speaker 3: glamorized burnout. It was full work hard, play hard, and
Speaker 3: I loved it and I was young. But you can't
Speaker 3: keep doing that forever. Yeah, Next up, we're going to
Speaker 3: tell you how you can break free of that and
Speaker 3: share some of our tips around how.
Speaker 2: We've moved out of the don't worry, it's not a
Speaker 2: doom and glamor.
Speaker 1: No, it is not doom and gloom. It's awful of
Speaker 1: hope from here.
Speaker 3: So I thought we could share what's helped us both.
Speaker 3: I want to share what I've done recently that's actually
Speaker 3: really helped me start to break out of that trap
Speaker 3: and also almost out of that mindset of I must
Speaker 3: work all the time and keep it in check, because,
Speaker 3: like you've said, like you can eb and flow through this.
Speaker 1: There are times when you can work hard.
Speaker 3: We just won't want you to end up becoming a
Speaker 3: workaholic and that being part of your life, right, I
Speaker 3: will say, I'm still a work in progress. I really
Speaker 3: love what I do, and so I do find it
Speaker 3: hard to switch off.
Speaker 1: You know. I was even writing these notes quite late
Speaker 1: at night for this episode.
Speaker 2: Got that notification girl, it was great for me, who
Speaker 2: checks my emails at six thirty eight?
Speaker 3: I thought, so keeping it in check and just being
Speaker 3: much more wherever, and like I think the start of
Speaker 3: any problem always needs a bit more intention and realization
Speaker 3: that you don't want to be that way. So a
Speaker 3: couple of things I did so when I was in
Speaker 3: burnout Burnout Part two last year, I was like, something
Speaker 3: has to change.
Speaker 1: I can't keep doing this.
Speaker 3: If you want to change anything at work or in life,
Speaker 3: you need to figure out why, Like why is it
Speaker 3: important for you to change it? Why should you change?
Speaker 3: Why are you doing it in the first place? And
Speaker 3: so I booked in to see a coach performance and
Speaker 3: mindset coach. Oh wow, Yes, and it was transformational. Her
Speaker 3: name is Jane Martino. She's also the co founder of
Speaker 3: Smiling Mind. We'll link to her in the show notes.
Speaker 3: So we had a few sessions unpacking where the workholic
Speaker 3: tendencies were coming from and what I wanted instead, give
Speaker 3: yourself the time and space. So much time at work
Speaker 3: we are rushing through doing all the things crossing off
Speaker 3: our to do list that we don't give ourselves time
Speaker 3: to think. Yeah, and that's what a coaching session will do.
Speaker 3: You'll sit back, talk it out and think for an hour.
Speaker 3: That was one of the best things I did. So
Speaker 3: find yourself a coach or someone who can support you
Speaker 3: like a coach can.
Speaker 1: The next thing I did was something a bit woo woo.
Speaker 1: We got a prop.
Speaker 3: Oh, yes, we do have a prop. I read this book.
Speaker 3: It's called The Four Agreements. Now, I mean Oprah. Her
Speaker 3: book review was like this transfer my life. My book
Speaker 3: review is the start and the end are a bit
Speaker 3: woo woo for me.
Speaker 1: But the Four Agreements you do not give woo woo
Speaker 1: out of everything, right, Yeah. But I was like, I'm
Speaker 1: very like open to learning and open minded. So I
Speaker 1: was like hmm.
Speaker 3: I had to push through the first couple of chapters.
Speaker 3: But then when we got into the four agreements around
Speaker 3: like you know, what you should agree with yourself and
Speaker 3: the kind of like work life and life you want
Speaker 3: to have. I'll give you a sneak peak. First agreement
Speaker 3: being peckled with your word. Second one don't take anything personally. Third,
Speaker 3: don't make assumptions, and fourth always do your best. And
Speaker 3: it talks about those and the minds that you have
Speaker 3: around each of those things.
Speaker 2: It's so simple but also quite hard to do.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that was a really interesting thing for me
Speaker 3: to do. And I think you know how you're saying,
Speaker 3: I don't give off weo weoo vibes when you are
Speaker 3: trying to learn something new or trying to unpack it
Speaker 3: a bit, you should go to where you haven't been before.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1: Actually, what have you got to lose?
Speaker 4: Right? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Go foraging?
Speaker 3: Yes, go foraging by this book That oprazervis transformational. So
Speaker 3: my third tip is balance like that, intention and control.
Speaker 3: So a question I always come to myself with every
Speaker 3: week is what.
Speaker 1: Does good look like?
Speaker 3: So if I'm going to finish this week or this
Speaker 3: day as well, and know that I've had a really
Speaker 3: good day and I can clock off and be satisfied
Speaker 3: with what I've done.
Speaker 1: What does good look like? And so then I've got
Speaker 1: my top three or four things that have to do
Speaker 1: that's so good. And so my last one is boundaries.
Speaker 2: Ooh, I hate that word.
Speaker 1: I know it's the hardest one.
Speaker 2: I actually there's someone who's like such a perm I
Speaker 2: just want to know what everyone's doing. I know, I
Speaker 2: mean everyone's business.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, I'll just find out this one more thing. Boundaries.
Speaker 3: I think the reason we hate the word is because
Speaker 3: it feels really restrictive. Hm. It's like when you were
Speaker 3: saying before, like someone told me I can't work. But
Speaker 3: at some point you realize that work is more of
Speaker 3: a marathon, not a sprint, and if we treat it
Speaker 3: like a sprint.
Speaker 1: They were just going to be exhausted the whole time.
Speaker 2: Do you have to be doing this for quite a while?
Speaker 3: Yeah, you enjoy it too, Like you should be able
Speaker 3: to enjoy work. And so if you think about it
Speaker 3: that way, then the boundaries become why do I need
Speaker 3: these boundaries?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 3: Do I need them so my work can be more sustainable?
Speaker 3: Or I can sustain this high level performance for a while.
Speaker 1: Do I need them?
Speaker 3: Because I want to dedicate some time to other areas
Speaker 3: in my life as well, like exercise that's also important.
Speaker 3: And so figure out why it's important for you, because
Speaker 3: if you don't do that top and tail of why,
Speaker 3: like why with the coach and then why should I
Speaker 3: set boundaries? You won't really be fully committed to any
Speaker 3: kind of change.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, I do have a few tips that worked
Speaker 2: for me personally.
Speaker 1: So are they woo woo?
Speaker 2: They're not woo wo? Okay, So I feel like if
Speaker 2: you're listening, definitely take on Lisa's tips. Use mine as
Speaker 2: a grain of.
Speaker 1: Salt's let's go take your pick.
Speaker 2: Okay. Mine is surround yourself with lifestyle people. What I
Speaker 2: mean is that because, as I mentioned before, a lot
Speaker 2: of my closest friends are also industry friends who know
Speaker 2: about work were also workaholics. Yeah, have other people in
Speaker 2: your life who are the complete opposite and hang out
Speaker 2: with them a lot.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: My person I go to when I feel like I'm
Speaker 2: working a lot and a lot and a lot and
Speaker 2: it's like kind of taking out my whole life is
Speaker 2: my Nana. Because firstly, you can't talk to your nana
Speaker 2: and be on your phone. That's so rude. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: she has no idea about anything. So we're just talking
Speaker 2: about the garden. We're talking about what she watched on
Speaker 2: Netflix lately. We're talking about newsphy she found.
Speaker 1: She's probably like, what's a podcast?
Speaker 2: She genuinely for the last seven years things I work
Speaker 2: at Facebook.
Speaker 1: Excellent, Yep, that work.
Speaker 2: Because I told her one of my articles one on Facebook,
Speaker 2: and she's like, you work on Facebook.
Speaker 1: Yes, yep, let's go with that.
Speaker 2: And the other tip is fake holidays. So what I
Speaker 2: mean by this, you knowing you're a workaholic is really hard.
Speaker 2: Like even like what I do when I go on
Speaker 2: holidays or when I'm off on the weekend, I delete
Speaker 2: my email and my Slack from my phone. Okay, Still,
Speaker 2: I will have these little times where I'll be on
Speaker 2: the toilet or no one's around me, and I'll like
Speaker 2: quickly redownload it, check something, find a computer, check something.
Speaker 2: What I do in some situations, it's like, say it's
Speaker 2: a weekend, I tell work that I'm going to be
Speaker 2: away in a place where there's no reception. Yeah. So
Speaker 2: and it's not just telling them as in like, don't
Speaker 2: message me. But it's like telling yourself, like, yes, you've
Speaker 2: given yourself allowance to actually delete those apps and not
Speaker 2: check your phone over the weekend because people will definitely
Speaker 2: not message you. Now, it's like giving you like it's fine,
Speaker 2: people aren't going to message you. Firstly, they won't message
Speaker 2: you on the weekend, but now they definitely won't because
Speaker 2: you told them me, I have no reception exactly.
Speaker 3: So fake a holiday, isn't it interesting? Like the stories
Speaker 3: we tell ourselves as well, and how much we're convinced
Speaker 3: you can stuff if it works it.
Speaker 2: My next one kind of tackles the hobby part of
Speaker 2: the workaholic, where you fear like hobbies are waste of
Speaker 2: time and you want to work instead our phone free hobbies.
Speaker 2: So watching movies, being really into movies is a great hobby.
Speaker 2: Reading is a great hobby. But there's still hobbies where
Speaker 2: you will sometimes just like quickly check your phone, oh,
Speaker 2: quickly check your computer. Yes, I try to find hobbies
Speaker 2: where you physically can't do that. And one of mine
Speaker 2: is I used to play piano when I was younger,
Speaker 2: and I've started taking it up again, so I'm playing piano.
Speaker 2: You actually can't check your phone when you're playing piano.
Speaker 2: It's really hard. And then if you have those like
Speaker 2: workaholic tendencies where you just want to achieve something and
Speaker 2: be good at it, just make finishing that piano piece
Speaker 2: that thing. Yes, And I just tell yourself that if
Speaker 2: I finish this, if I do that, then that's something
Speaker 2: I've achieved. And then you haven't thought about work for
Speaker 2: like an hour.
Speaker 1: That would be almost a form of like mindfulness, wouldn't it.
Speaker 2: Like it's so nice, like it's the one thing that
Speaker 2: I can do where like you physically can't think about
Speaker 2: anything else because then your stuff it up.
Speaker 1: Exactly, So it's just so nice. Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2: And my last thing is what I brought up before,
Speaker 2: it's pick your waves. So pick the times and work
Speaker 2: where you do want to work a bit harder, and
Speaker 2: pick the times where you can just kind of chill
Speaker 2: out a bit.
Speaker 4: Yes.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think if we can give everyone like one
Speaker 3: useful thing to go away from this with is if
Speaker 3: you are feeling like you're part of some of these
Speaker 3: workaholic tendencies are calling out to you and the list
Speaker 3: of you this year with us before figure out why, Yeah,
Speaker 3: talk to your friend, talk to a mentor get a coach,
Speaker 3: and figure out where it's coming from. Because until you
Speaker 3: figure that out, anything you do will be superficial change.
Speaker 3: It won't actually be the change that you're looking for.
Speaker 2: So good. That is all we have for this week's
Speaker 2: episode of BIBS. We know you are juggling deadlines and meetings,
Speaker 2: so thank you so much for spending some of your
Speaker 2: day with us. We hope these insights help you tackle
Speaker 2: your next workplace challenge with a bit more confidence. Plus,
Speaker 2: for extra content, you can always follow us on Instagram
Speaker 2: at biz by Mama Maya for all your weekly workplace insights.
Speaker 2: On some behind the scenes we did a very special
Speaker 2: little behind the scenes better shot for you to check out.
Speaker 2: Oh yes, go give it a follow, give us a
Speaker 2: littt Yeah, hell us, how much you loved it. If
Speaker 2: you want more of these topics, you can check out
Speaker 2: our newsletter as well. It's completely free. We'll put a
Speaker 2: link in our show notes to that, and we'll put
Speaker 2: everything that you want to recap in that one newsletter.
Speaker 2: It is such a good asset. Every time I get it,
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh my god, I forgot we covered all this?
Speaker 3: Oh yes, business produced by Georgie Page and Sophie Campbell,
Speaker 3: with audio by Leah Porges. We'll be back in your
Speaker 3: podcast feed next week with more no nonsense work chat.
Speaker 3: Until then, back yourself, ask what you want, and remember
Speaker 3: even the most confident people are figuring it out as
Speaker 3: they go.
Speaker 1: See you next time. Bye.
Speaker 2: Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
Speaker 2: that this podcast is recorded on