WEBVTT - INBOX: Help! How Do I Fire Someone?

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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to Amma Mia podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Hello and welcome to Biz Inbox. I'm m Vernon and

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Michelle Battersbee, and every week we answer your burning

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<v Speaker 2>career questions in the simplest way possible because we're all

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<v Speaker 2>busy over here. We don't give you any sugarcoating answers,

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<v Speaker 2>just straight facts without the need of a corporate translator.

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<v Speaker 1>That's right, m. This week we're getting into job hunting

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<v Speaker 1>whilst pregnant, firing someone, and whether you should invite your

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<v Speaker 1>colleagues to your wedding.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's jump straight into it, mishe. We received this question

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<v Speaker 2>from Isabelle via our Instagram DMS biz by Mamma Mia.

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<v Speaker 2>If you're not following us already, and she said, I've

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<v Speaker 2>been in my job for two years. Do I invite

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<v Speaker 2>my boss my wedding? I actually think about like I'm

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<v Speaker 2>nowhere close to getting married, but I think about this

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<v Speaker 2>way too often. I feel like I should invite my

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<v Speaker 2>boss to my wedding. And I really love my boss.

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<v Speaker 2>I would anyway, But then I feel like, once you

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<v Speaker 2>invite one boss, there's five other people you should also

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<v Speaker 2>probably invite from your workplace, Like I feel like it's

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<v Speaker 2>no balls until you're inviting your whole company to your wedding.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you hang out with your current boss that you

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<v Speaker 1>would invite to your wedding socially outside of work at

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<v Speaker 1>the moment?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I do, Like I really like her.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I think that is an indicator of if this

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<v Speaker 1>is someone you should invite to your wedding, Like, do

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<v Speaker 1>you actually have a relationship with them outside of work.

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<v Speaker 1>I've been engaged for coming up to five years with

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<v Speaker 1>no wedding planning inside.

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<v Speaker 2>It's happening soon maybe.

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<v Speaker 1>Maybe, But I heard someone put it amazingly one time

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<v Speaker 1>when it comes to how you should craft your invite list,

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<v Speaker 1>and you focus on three things past, present, future, and

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<v Speaker 1>for someone to get an invite to your wedding, they

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<v Speaker 1>should tick two of the boxes. So maybe they're like

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<v Speaker 1>a really really old friend. So they're in your past,

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<v Speaker 1>but you like haven't spoken to them in years because

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<v Speaker 1>maybe you've moved countries or something, but you kind of

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<v Speaker 1>know that they will be in your future in some way,

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<v Speaker 1>like you're going to move back. You've got the foundations,

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<v Speaker 1>still love them, like they can tick the box your boss,

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<v Speaker 1>they're very present, Like do you see them as being

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<v Speaker 1>someone who is going to be in your life when

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<v Speaker 1>you leave the company, And I think if you're hanging

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<v Speaker 1>out with them socially outside of work, that's an indication

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<v Speaker 1>that you've got like a bigger friendship there. And so

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<v Speaker 1>maybe they're a mentor maybe they're now a friend, so

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<v Speaker 1>they can kind of tick the box. But there's a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of people that you probably spend time with and

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<v Speaker 1>it's like just circumstantial. You know, it's because you're working

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<v Speaker 1>for the company right then you're like learning a new

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<v Speaker 1>hobby or something. But the root of the friendship is

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<v Speaker 1>in that deep. So maybe they won't be in your future.

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<v Speaker 1>And I just always kind of liked that as a

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<v Speaker 1>bit of a guiding principle. Obviously, like you're still making

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<v Speaker 1>assumptions predicting that you'll be friends with someone in the future,

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<v Speaker 1>but I think it's like a good lens to put

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<v Speaker 1>over how strong is your current connection with them?

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<v Speaker 2>That is so smart past, present and future. Can I

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<v Speaker 2>ask you a question that has nothing to do with career? Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>at workplace? Yeah, but what if it's like your weird

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<v Speaker 2>cousin's new girlfriend. Because she's not my past, she might

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<v Speaker 2>not be my future, but she's also not really my presence.

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<v Speaker 3>Do you have to invite her?

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<v Speaker 1>I'd say no, Like, I also don't subscribe to just

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<v Speaker 1>inviting people to your wedding simply because they're family. Well, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>is that controversial, But I want people at my wedding

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<v Speaker 1>who make the vibe great. I will be honest with this.

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<v Speaker 1>I've got a cousin who outright fucking hates me and

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<v Speaker 1>my sisters, and one of my sisters is getting There's

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<v Speaker 1>no way she'll listen to this because she absolutely hates us.

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<v Speaker 1>But one of my sisters is getting married. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>felt bad that she's not going to invite this cousin,

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<v Speaker 1>And I'm like, I went through my sister under the

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<v Speaker 1>bus and name her right now. But I'm like, she

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<v Speaker 1>hates us, she hates you. She will make this wedding miserable. Like,

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<v Speaker 1>this is not someone that you want in the room,

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<v Speaker 1>and you don't want the anxiety of kind of dealing

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<v Speaker 1>with someone who makes you feel uncomfortable just because they're family.

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<v Speaker 1>I just don't think that's right to me.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh oh my god, Yeah, you are much braver than

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<v Speaker 2>I am. But I like that analogy past, present of future.

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<v Speaker 2>I feel like that could change a lot of people's lives,

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<v Speaker 2>regardless if it's your boss or anyone.

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<v Speaker 1>Question Number two, I'm stressed. I'm unemployed and I've just

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<v Speaker 1>found out I'm pregnant. How do I get another job?

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<v Speaker 1>And should I tell future employers?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh?

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<v Speaker 1>I really feel for this person, because that is just

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<v Speaker 1>a lot on your plate at one time, and it

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<v Speaker 1>is very normal when navigating pregnancy to wonder and worry

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<v Speaker 1>about how it may affect your employment, because the scary

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<v Speaker 1>thing is you just don't really know how people will

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<v Speaker 1>respond to that and what an individual's perception judgment conditioning

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<v Speaker 1>is like around this topic. And unfortunately, there is research

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<v Speaker 1>that shows there is still discrimination that exists against pregnant

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<v Speaker 1>and parent workers and that sucks, and we really do

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<v Speaker 1>still have such a long way to go with this.

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<v Speaker 1>But it's for that reason that I would recommend if

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<v Speaker 1>you are pregnant and job hunting and you can hide it,

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<v Speaker 1>definitely do your best to through the interview process. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>it is probably a good thing these days that so

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<v Speaker 1>much is virtual in that regard, but I think it's

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<v Speaker 1>best not to disclose your pregnant until you have the

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<v Speaker 1>offer on the table. You don't owe it to the interviewer.

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<v Speaker 1>To like let them know early in the process. I

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<v Speaker 1>think it is right to let them know before you

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<v Speaker 1>sign the contract, though, just shows that you're upfront. It's

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<v Speaker 1>like a good demonstration of your integrity, I think, But

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<v Speaker 1>it's also just a way to protect yourself in case

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<v Speaker 1>there is any bias in the room until you've got

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<v Speaker 1>a firm offer on the table, and then I would

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<v Speaker 1>just be up front with them and let them know

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<v Speaker 1>you know where you're at in the pregnancy, let them

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<v Speaker 1>know that you're excited about the opportunity and you know,

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<v Speaker 1>willing to work with them on what that period may

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<v Speaker 1>look like once you get there.

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<v Speaker 2>I can't believe that it's still like so discriminatory against

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<v Speaker 2>pregnant women when it comes to find jobs and keeping jobs,

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<v Speaker 2>even like letting people go. I think if you can

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<v Speaker 2>hide it, that's great, but it also sucks that you

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<v Speaker 2>have to.

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<v Speaker 1>I know, it absolutely does, and I wish that wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>the answer. But I just think there was a research

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<v Speaker 1>study done in Australia like last year, and it was

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<v Speaker 1>the first study in over a decade that looked into

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<v Speaker 1>this topic, and it came out with stats that did

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<v Speaker 1>prove that this kind of discrimination and bias did still exist.

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<v Speaker 1>But I think that's also why you do definitely want

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<v Speaker 1>to let them know once you've got the offer, but

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<v Speaker 1>before you sign, because you do also want to get

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<v Speaker 1>a read on what their response is, like how celebratory

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<v Speaker 1>they are, how accommodating they are, if they have a

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<v Speaker 1>family themselves, if there are examples of other parents within

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<v Speaker 1>the workplace that they've supported through their first pregnancy, second pregnancy,

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<v Speaker 1>whatever it is. I think those are then conversations you

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<v Speaker 1>can have once it's out on the table, because I

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<v Speaker 1>also would hate to see a pregnant woman then going

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<v Speaker 1>into an environment that isn't going to treat her well,

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<v Speaker 1>and I don't think, you know, anyone would really want that.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's also an opportunity to identify like if culturally

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<v Speaker 1>they're going to be a supportive and safe place for you,

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<v Speaker 1>which you know, you'd really hope in twenty twenty five

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<v Speaker 1>that that's what you're walking into. But unfortunately, and that's

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<v Speaker 1>the part that makes it scary, you really just don't

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<v Speaker 1>know how people will respond until you kind of start

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<v Speaker 1>having those conversations.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh well, I guess I won't get pregnant.

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<v Speaker 1>Then no, I would say, you're in a very good

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<v Speaker 1>environment to get pregnant.

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<v Speaker 2>Our third and final question comes from Chanel and she

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<v Speaker 2>wrote into the biz email, I want to write your

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<v Speaker 2>questions into the bits email will put a link in

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<v Speaker 2>our show notes. It's very easy for you. And she said,

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<v Speaker 2>I run a small business and I have to fire someone.

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<v Speaker 2>How do I do it? And how do I know

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<v Speaker 2>if I should do it? Oh, I've never ever ever

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<v Speaker 2>experienced this, but Mish, have you? Surely you have?

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, I've fired many many people in my time. This

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<v Speaker 1>is tough. And as a small business owner or as

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<v Speaker 1>like a founder maybe early in your journey, I think

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<v Speaker 1>it's one of the toughest lessons that you learn. And

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<v Speaker 1>I always had this saying in the back of my mind,

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<v Speaker 1>but I kind of learned it the hard way, and

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<v Speaker 1>it is higher, slow, fire, fast, and that is really

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<v Speaker 1>how you need to operate in business. And I think

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<v Speaker 1>even if you're at the point where you're asking the

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<v Speaker 1>question like how do I know if I should do it,

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<v Speaker 1>you already know. You know. It's kind of like if

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<v Speaker 1>you're wondering if you'd like your boyfriend and or love

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<v Speaker 1>your boyfriend. If you're kind of asking that question, then

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<v Speaker 1>you probably know that they're not the one. It can

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<v Speaker 1>be really hard to let people go, and often, as

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<v Speaker 1>like a founder or as a manager, if you've hired

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<v Speaker 1>the person, you feel responsible, like you want them to thrive,

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<v Speaker 1>you want them to shine, and you can often feel

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<v Speaker 1>like it's your fault almost that they haven't been able

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<v Speaker 1>to get there, And so that can lead to you

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<v Speaker 1>like giving people multiple choices and kind of making excuses

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<v Speaker 1>for poor performance, which at the end of the day

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<v Speaker 1>just ends up making it so much more painful and

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<v Speaker 1>so much more excruciating then it needs to be. And

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<v Speaker 1>so my advice is definitely to act as fast as

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<v Speaker 1>possible once you get a sense that someone's not the

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<v Speaker 1>right person for the role. But I do operate under

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<v Speaker 1>the policy of no surprises. So if you are going

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<v Speaker 1>to let someone go ethically and morally, I always feel

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<v Speaker 1>like it should not come as a surprise to that

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<v Speaker 1>person that they are being let go. If it comes

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<v Speaker 1>as a surprise, then I don't feel like I've done

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<v Speaker 1>my job well enough, Like I haven't communicated with them

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<v Speaker 1>transparently enough, I haven't given them clear feedback on their performance.

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<v Speaker 1>I haven't maybe put them on a performance improvement plan.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, I do operate a business in California where

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<v Speaker 1>it's at will employment. So in California we can just

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<v Speaker 1>fire people whenever we like, it's actually crazy. But even

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<v Speaker 1>with that in mind, like would always make sure have

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<v Speaker 1>been really clear with a person that they're underperforming, created

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<v Speaker 1>paper trails, set KPIs for them to meet with deadlines,

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<v Speaker 1>and then if those aren't met they are released. You

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<v Speaker 1>know you're setting them free. That's also another way to

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<v Speaker 1>think about it. But yeah, just making sure that there

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<v Speaker 1>is a valid business reason for the employment no longer

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<v Speaker 1>existing moments is a challenging one because it can often

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<v Speaker 1>feel a little bit more emotional, which is why it's

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<v Speaker 1>good to have everything documented and just stick to the facts.

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<v Speaker 1>But if the business is changing, that's usually an easier

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<v Speaker 1>thing to convey to someone and it's like less personal

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<v Speaker 1>or if you're downsizing, that also makes it easier to

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<v Speaker 1>let people go because it's not so tied to their

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<v Speaker 1>individual performance. That's all my advice on that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I also feel like as an employee, I remember

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<v Speaker 2>when I first started, I think that probationary period, like

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<v Speaker 2>if you're going to let someone go, do it during

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<v Speaker 2>them because for me, like I never really felt like

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<v Speaker 2>I was in the job until I passed that, so

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<v Speaker 2>I feel like if something would have happened in between

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<v Speaker 2>that period, it wouldn't have felt so drastic.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, definitely with probation periods like those are there for

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<v Speaker 1>a reason, especially in Australia, where it actually is really

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<v Speaker 1>hard to fire people, to be honest, like the law

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<v Speaker 1>is much more in favor of employees in austral as

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<v Speaker 1>opposed to employers like it is in the States. But yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>it never feels good letting people go. If it doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>hurt you a bit, then you've lost you know, compassion

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<v Speaker 1>or empathys as a human. So it is definitely normal

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<v Speaker 1>that it feels hard and it's tough. But I think

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<v Speaker 1>if you're acting under the guise of that no surprises policy,

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<v Speaker 1>then it just makes the conversations easier and you know

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<v Speaker 1>that you've given them a fair chance and a shot

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<v Speaker 1>to prove themselves and it just hasn't worked out. And

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<v Speaker 1>at the end of the day, employment is a transaction

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<v Speaker 1>and it happens and both parties move on. Thanks for

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<v Speaker 1>helping us clear the busy inbox. If you've got a

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<v Speaker 1>work question, send it our way. You'll find a link

0:13:51.930 --> 0:13:53.930
<v Speaker 1>to submit your questions in the show.

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<v Speaker 2>Notes, and if you missed any of our other episodes,

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<v Speaker 2>just scroll back up into your feed. We recently did

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<v Speaker 2>an episode on owning your redundancy. It's relevant to anyone

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<v Speaker 2>feeling like they're starting all over again, and we'll also

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<v Speaker 2>put a link to that in our show notes and

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<v Speaker 2>we'll be back here in your biz in box next week.

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<v Speaker 3>Bye bye, Mamma.

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<v Speaker 2>Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that

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<v Speaker 2>this podcast is recorded on