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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Mum and mea podcast. Mama Mia

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Speaker 1: acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waterers. This podcast

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Speaker 1: was recorded on Hi True Crime Conversations listeners. It's your host,

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Speaker 1: Jemmy here and I'm jumping back in your ears today

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Speaker 1: to share an important episode with you.

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Speaker 2: It's from No Filter, which is another interview podcast we

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Speaker 2: have on the Muma Mea network. It's hosted by Mia

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Speaker 2: Friedman and this year marks ten years since the heartbreaking

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Speaker 2: death of James Foley, the American journalist who has taken

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Speaker 2: hostage and killed by ISIS in twenty fourteen. In this episode,

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Speaker 2: his mother, Diane Foley, talks about meeting with one of

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Speaker 2: the people responsible for her son's murder. What unfolds is

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Speaker 2: an incredibly moving conversation about James's life and the grace

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Speaker 2: and empathy Diane has shown despite such an unimaginable loss.

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Speaker 2: It's really powerful, it's thought provoking, and I think it

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Speaker 2: will stay with you long after you listen. Let us

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Speaker 2: know what you think of the episode. I'll see you

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Speaker 2: next week for another true crime conversation.

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Speaker 3: I'm Mea Friedman and from Mama Mia. You're listening to

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Speaker 3: No filter. If I said the name James Foley, a

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Speaker 3: distant bell might ring in your head. And if I

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Speaker 3: showed you a picture of James, you might recognize his face,

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Speaker 3: big smile, handsome, dark hair, tan skin. It looks a

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Speaker 3: little bit like a movie star in a way. But

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Speaker 3: it wouldn't be until I showed you a photo of

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Speaker 3: James wearing an orange jumpsuit, kneeling in the desert with

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Speaker 3: a black, hooded man standing behind him that it will click.

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Speaker 3: James Foley is that guy. He's the American journalist who

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Speaker 3: has taken hostage in Syria by isis held for two

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Speaker 3: years in shocking conditions, and then beheaded in a public

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Speaker 3: execution that was videoed and shared with the world as

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Speaker 3: a message from terrorists as a threat.

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Speaker 4: Something like ninety four percent of Americans were aware of

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Speaker 4: Jim's death and how he died. It's the event with

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Speaker 4: the second most recognition in recent American history after nine

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Speaker 4: to eleven.

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Speaker 5: He would have been horrified by that.

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Speaker 4: I mean, he was there to talk about the Syrian people.

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Speaker 4: And this is the takeaway.

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Speaker 3: How James Foley died is what made him famous, and

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Speaker 3: it is difficult to untangle it from how he lived,

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Speaker 3: which is what we're going to do today. He was

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Speaker 3: the eldest of five kids who grew up in a

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Speaker 3: close family. His dad was a doctor, his mum was

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Speaker 3: a nurse, and three of his siblings served in the military.

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Speaker 3: But that wasn't for James. He wanted to be a journalist,

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Speaker 3: and not the deak kind of journalist sitting behind a computer.

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Speaker 3: He wanted to work on the ground in war zones.

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Speaker 6: I believe the frontline journalism is important. Without these photos

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Speaker 6: and videos and first and experience, you can't really tell

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Speaker 6: the world how.

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Speaker 4: Bad might be.

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Speaker 3: James's mother, Diane, who has written a memoir called American

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Speaker 3: Mother and He's my guest Today. Diane knew a thing

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Speaker 3: or two about having children in dangerous situations the military,

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Speaker 3: but she had no idea how big the risks were

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Speaker 3: for James until he was kidnapped in Libya in twenty eleven,

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Speaker 3: and he spent forty four days as a hostage before

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Speaker 3: he was released.

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Speaker 7: After successful diplomatic negotiations.

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Speaker 8: Two American journalists and a Spanish journalists are finally going

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Speaker 8: home after being kidnapped and detained by the Libyan government

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Speaker 8: forces for forty four.

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Speaker 3: Days because unbelievably. When Isis captured him the year after,

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Speaker 3: it was the second time he'd been held hostage. He'd

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Speaker 3: only been home for seven months when he went back

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Speaker 3: into a war zone.

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Speaker 9: There's physical courage, right, for some reason, I have physical courage,

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Speaker 9: but you really think about it, that's nothing compared to

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Speaker 9: moral courage.

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Speaker 3: At the end of twenty twenty one, over seven years

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Speaker 3: after millions of people watched her son being executed, Dianne

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Speaker 3: got the opportunity to go and meet with one of

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Speaker 3: his killers, who had just been convicted, and she said, yes,

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Speaker 3: So why on earth did she want to do that?

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Speaker 3: What do you say to one of your son's murderers?

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Speaker 3: And what did he say over the ten hours that

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Speaker 3: they spent together over a couple of days in the

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Speaker 3: American jail where he was being held. This is a

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Speaker 3: story about a mother's love for her son and how

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Speaker 3: it continues to sustain her, how she found a way

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Speaker 3: to heal herself after she lost her boy, and how

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Speaker 3: sitting down with his killer helped her to do that.

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Speaker 3: His Diane Folly, Jim must have been a great kid,

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Speaker 3: because you had four more after him.

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Speaker 5: He was a great kid. He was a lot of

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Speaker 5: fun and I enjoyed being a mother. He really was.

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Speaker 5: He was a good boy.

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Speaker 3: How old were you when you had him?

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Speaker 5: I had Jim when I was young. I was twenty five,

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Speaker 5: so I had energy for him, so that was good.

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Speaker 3: You talk about him having an amazing imagination.

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Speaker 5: He loved books from the time he was very tiny,

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Speaker 5: loved to be read to, and once he could read himself,

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Speaker 5: he was reading, often reading and pretending to be people

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Speaker 5: we read about often first bones.

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Speaker 3: And are often quite cautious and very responsible. Was Jim

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Speaker 3: very adventurous as a kid, because he certainly was as

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Speaker 3: an adult.

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Speaker 5: He was very adventurousome. He was definitely not cautious. He

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Speaker 5: was very curious about the world, about people. I would

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Speaker 5: not call him cautious at all. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 5: as he got older, he was aware. He wasn't reckless.

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Speaker 5: I mean he was well aware of the dangers in

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Speaker 5: the conflict zone and took all the required safety horses

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Speaker 5: and equipment and all that was necessary. But no, he

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Speaker 5: was not cautious as a child. He was full on

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Speaker 5: wanted to know about the world.

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Speaker 3: When you have five kids, I've got three, and I've

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Speaker 3: always wondered how when you've got that many children, you

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Speaker 3: maintain relationships with each of them, particularly when they're small,

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Speaker 3: and there's just so much need for attention for meals

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Speaker 3: and arrangements. How did sort of the dynamic of the

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Speaker 3: children and you and your husband John all play out.

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Speaker 5: Our first two were only two years apart, so that

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Speaker 5: they were busy, but the others were three and four

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Speaker 5: years apart, so that was part of the way we

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Speaker 5: tried to give as much attention as possible to each child.

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Speaker 5: It's always not perfect, you know, as parents, we just

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Speaker 5: do our best. But Jim was a very easy older

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Speaker 5: brother because he really was very protective about the others

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Speaker 5: and was generally pretty easy going as a child and

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Speaker 5: very independent, so they were not needy kids, if you will.

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Speaker 3: One of the hardest things I find as a parent

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Speaker 3: is the tension between wanting to support what they want

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Speaker 3: to do and their passions and their dreams, and also

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Speaker 3: worrying about them, and also having them not around when

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Speaker 3: perhaps you'd like to see more of them. When he

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Speaker 3: first talked about becoming a conflict journalist and traveling to

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Speaker 3: war zones, how did you manage that tension? What did

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Speaker 3: you say.

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Speaker 5: At the time Three of his younger siblings were in

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Speaker 5: the military, with one in the Army, one in the

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Speaker 5: Air Force, one in the Navy. So I was quite

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Speaker 5: concerned about them and ignorant in many ways about the

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Speaker 5: high risk of particularly being a freelance conflict journalism. And

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Speaker 5: it took Jim a while to find journalism. He was

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Speaker 5: initially a teacher than a writer. Eventually found journalism, and

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Speaker 5: once he found it, he was so passionate about it

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Speaker 5: that we were delighted he'd found something he really loved.

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Speaker 3: When he told you he was going to Libya, did

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Speaker 3: you know much about Libya and what was happening over there?

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Speaker 5: Again, like I say, I think as a consumer of

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Speaker 5: the news, I think I was quite ignorant about the

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Speaker 5: dangers in the Middle East. To be honest, I really

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Speaker 5: didn't know, and Jim didn't emphasize that, but he did

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Speaker 5: make a point of taking, as I said, the safety

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Speaker 5: courses and doing all he felt he could to be

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Speaker 5: as safe as possible. But I was not as aware

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Speaker 5: as I could of and should have as a parent.

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Speaker 3: What did it actually involve his work in Libya? Like,

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Speaker 3: when you're a conflict journalist, what do you do every day?

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Speaker 5: Well, first, you get into the country. I mean, that

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Speaker 5: is not that easy in some of these areas. But

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Speaker 5: then you look for reporting on the ground, what is

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Speaker 5: going on on the ground, and that's exactly what they

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Speaker 5: would do. Every day. They would go out to the

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Speaker 5: front line. They would interview civilians, soldiers, people who were

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Speaker 5: living what was going on in the country and looking

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Speaker 5: for important stories that he felt people in the West

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Speaker 5: would want to hear and want to know. So kind

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Speaker 5: of a hectic when they were in country, I think

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Speaker 5: because they had to be thinking about their safety, safety

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Speaker 5: of people they were interviewing, while at the same time

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Speaker 5: looking for good stories and wanting to tell them. So

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Speaker 5: rather stressful when in country, particularly in conflict zones.

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Speaker 3: One of the things that really came through with what

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Speaker 3: I learned about Jim from your book and from watching

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Speaker 3: the documentary about him that was made by Brian his

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Speaker 3: childhood friend, is how he created families wherever he was,

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Speaker 3: which made me think about he was essentially recreating what

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Speaker 3: you had and your husband had created in the bond

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Speaker 3: of your family and your kids. So when he was

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Speaker 3: in Libya, he had this family of other freelance journalists

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Speaker 3: and other journalists that he was close to, essentially and

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Speaker 3: on the day that they were captured, and when one

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Speaker 3: of them was tragically killed, he was taken hostage along

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Speaker 3: with a few friends. Yes, how did you learn that

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Speaker 3: he was taken?

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Speaker 5: We heard from Human Rights Watch called us directly looked

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Speaker 5: us up on Facebook and reached out to us out

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Speaker 5: of the blue. And then the second person probably was

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Speaker 5: one of his outlets he was working for. And then

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Speaker 5: eventually US consul called us. So we received several calls,

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Speaker 5: but the first one was from a stranger who worked

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Speaker 5: for Human Rights Watch.

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Speaker 3: Now you're just an ordinary family. Your son has taken

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Speaker 3: host did in Libya. He was held for forty four days.

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Speaker 3: How did those forty four days play out?

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Speaker 5: Well, any parent who's ever lost their child forbid they

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Speaker 5: be kidnapped or something like that knows. It's just it's

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Speaker 5: a horrific experience because you are powerless. You have no

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Speaker 5: idea how to help your child. And so we were

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Speaker 5: down on our knees praying most of the time. It

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Speaker 5: was Jim's second oldest, next older brother, Michael, who took

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Speaker 5: a leave from work and did all he could to

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Speaker 5: try to connect with people in Washington, and then a

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Speaker 5: lot of his friends did all the rest you say

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Speaker 5: creative families. Jim was just friendly and so he was

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Speaker 5: always welcomed into any family. That was his one of

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Speaker 5: his gifts. He was a very good listener and interested

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Speaker 5: in people. So what he was taken, his friends were

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Speaker 5: incredibly upset. So they did a website and got on

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Speaker 5: social media and had several campaigns for his return.

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Speaker 3: Were you asked for a ransom that time.

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Speaker 5: No, no, we were not. As a matter of fact,

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Speaker 5: the government did not reach out to us at all.

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Speaker 5: I don't know Jim was considered a political prisoner. I

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Speaker 5: mean it was in the middle of war. I'm not

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Speaker 5: sure if they knew what they wanted to do with

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Speaker 5: all their prisoners, to be honest. And he came out

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Speaker 5: really thanks to the connection of another stranger, David Bradley,

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Speaker 5: who at that time owned Atlantic Media. Jim was with

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Speaker 5: Claire Gillis, who was one of his freelancers. So David

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Speaker 5: and his team, along with Jim's friends from Teach for America,

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Speaker 5: did research until they found someone who had connections into

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Speaker 5: Gaddafi government, and it was through those good people that

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Speaker 5: Jim was eventually freed. When I heard he was freed,

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Speaker 5: we were at home. His brother went to meet him

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Speaker 5: in Libya.

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Speaker 3: How long was he homeful?

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Speaker 5: He was home for a good six months. I would

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Speaker 5: say he did a gratitude tour to see a lot

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Speaker 5: of his friends, so many people he felt he needed

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Speaker 5: to think. I did quite a bit of speaking on

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Speaker 5: that tour.

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Speaker 6: Young soldiers sort of spread out across the sand who

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Speaker 6: approached me and struck me with the butt of the

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Speaker 6: air k forty seven half dozen times punched me. I

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Speaker 6: didn't feel hardly anything. Such was my shock at seeing

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Speaker 6: my colleague Anton Morley wounded in the sand, knowing on

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Speaker 6: level right away that he was dead. And I had

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Speaker 6: a lot of time when I got back to the States.

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Speaker 6: I had a month to play over those moments, especially

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Speaker 6: that one day when we were captured, what I would

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Speaker 6: have done, what I could have done, what I should

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Speaker 6: have done, and really examining those things and being able

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Speaker 6: to talk about it openly.

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Speaker 5: And then went to work in Boston, then as an

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Speaker 5: editor for Global Post. Soon by the fall he was

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Speaker 5: working with Human Rights Watch doing some journalism for them,

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Speaker 5: and then eventually went back into the field.

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Speaker 3: You must have been thrilled when he had a desk

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Speaker 3: job for that brief time.

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Speaker 5: Well, we were, I mean, the whole thing was a

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Speaker 5: miracle that he returned. It was amazing.

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Speaker 3: Diane, How did he tell you he was going back

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Speaker 3: and how did you react?

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Speaker 5: Well, none of us were very happy. He had been

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Speaker 5: in and out, though he chose to go back and

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Speaker 5: briefly in the fall of twenty eleven, but full time

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Speaker 5: in the beginning of twenty twelve, and that time he

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Speaker 5: headed into Syria, and he went back and forth in

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Speaker 5: and out of Syria several times that year before his

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Speaker 5: kidnapping in November of twenty twelve.

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Speaker 3: He did some extraordinary things during that time. He spent

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Speaker 3: quite a lot of time at a hospital reporting there

258
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Speaker 3: and when they had the need for an ambulance, he

259
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Speaker 3: helped raise money to buy an ambulance.

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Speaker 4: I would say the flip side of his willingness to

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Speaker 4: get out there and do things is that like, Okay,

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Speaker 4: so you get an ambulance into serious some militia's going

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Speaker 4: to commandeer it and use it for their own purposes.

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Speaker 10: They're going to put an anti aircraft in the back

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Speaker 10: of it, like go blow shit up. Jim was not

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Speaker 10: focused on that kind of issue, like he would think about,

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Speaker 10: you know, what's the best.

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Speaker 5: Case scenario, not how things could go wrong.

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Speaker 3: He was always very mindful of the plight of civilians

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Speaker 3: where he was working. When he was taken the second time,

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Speaker 3: it was very different, wasn't it?

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Speaker 5: Yes?

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Speaker 3: How was it different?

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Speaker 5: Well, the second time it was only witnessed by his fixer,

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Speaker 5: and his fixer didn't know who the captors were.

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Speaker 3: Can you explain what a fixer is is?

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Speaker 5: A fixer is a person who translates and drives for

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Speaker 5: foreign reporter who comes in. Like Jim, was not fluent

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Speaker 5: in Arabic, so they had to find someone who knew

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Speaker 5: the country, knew the language, who could get them where

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Speaker 5: they needed to go. So their fixer was a good friend.

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Speaker 5: He was very kind and wanted to help. But at

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Speaker 5: that time there was a huge influx of foreign fighters

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Speaker 5: coming into northern Syria. He didn't know who they were.

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Speaker 5: It's kind of come as a surprise to a lot

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Speaker 5: of us. This group isis a group that we hadn't

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Speaker 5: really heard much about. Who exactly are they? Well, it's

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Speaker 5: a criminal, marauding gang. They come out of the original

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Speaker 5: very brutal, a rocky terra group. They're the worst, They're

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Speaker 5: the worst of the worst.

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Speaker 8: Washington does not how's his family in New England going

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Speaker 8: to figure that out.

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Speaker 5: Right, and so that was part of the problem. We

294
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Speaker 5: didn't know who had taken him. We didn't know if

295
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Speaker 5: it was the Asad regime or one of these foreign fighters.

296
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Speaker 3: What were the circumstances of he's kidnapping that time he

297
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Speaker 3: was with John Canty, the British journalist, was he.

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Speaker 5: Yes, yes, And that was one of the differences. Previously

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Speaker 5: Jim had been more under the radar. He worked very

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Speaker 5: quietly under the radar, but I think he missed some

301
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Speaker 5: male companionship, to be honest, and got friendly with John Canty,

302
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Speaker 5: which was great in many ways, but I think probably

303
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Speaker 5: put them at more risk because John was fairer and

304
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Speaker 5: had a very clear Western accent, whereas Jim was much quieter,

305
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Speaker 5: I think, at least I'm told when they stopped at

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Speaker 5: some restaurant on their way out of town, you know,

307
00:18:03,622 --> 00:18:05,502
Speaker 5: they were noticed, apparently.

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Speaker 3: And again, how did you find out through the fixer?

309
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Speaker 5: No, we actually found out through one of his colleagues.

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Speaker 5: Nicole Toungue and Claire Gillis were both in Turkey and

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Speaker 5: they were planning to meet Jim that afternoon, and so

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Speaker 5: they called us the day after that we celebrate Thanksgiving

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Speaker 5: Day in the United States. It was rather odd that

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Speaker 5: we didn't hear from Jim because he always called on holidays,

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Speaker 5: but we did not hear from him. So that morning

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Speaker 5: Claire and Nicole called us to say he had been kidnapped.

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Speaker 3: When you didn't hear from him, Diana, did you have

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Speaker 3: that spidery sense of unease?

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Speaker 5: I did. It was just a deafening silence not to

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Speaker 5: hear from Jim because he always called. And of course

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Speaker 5: when they called, it confirmed our fears.

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Speaker 3: I imagine there is a huge amount of adrenaline, but

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Speaker 3: nowhere for it to go in terms of Jim's family

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Speaker 3: and how you felt like knowing he'd been taken, like

325
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Speaker 3: what do you do? Do you call nine one one?

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Speaker 3: Do you call the White House?

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Speaker 5: Like?

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Speaker 3: What do you act? Actually do?

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Speaker 11: Well?

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Speaker 5: That was the problem. I mean, I'm a nurse, my

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Speaker 5: husband's a doctor. We had no idea what to do,

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Speaker 5: and we were shocked that it happened a second time,

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Speaker 5: I mean really shocked, and of course we went to

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Speaker 5: pray right away. That was my first reaction. It was

335
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Speaker 5: more and more frightening the fact that nobody knew where

336
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Speaker 5: he was. He had disappeared. He truly disappeared. In the

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Speaker 5: other in Libya, we knew where he had been taken.

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Speaker 5: It was still a miraculous that we were able to

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Speaker 5: get him out. But in this case we had no

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Speaker 5: idea even if he was alive, we had no idea

341
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Speaker 5: he had disappeared.

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Speaker 3: When did his captors first make contact.

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Speaker 5: We first heard that he was alive in September of

344
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Speaker 5: twenty thirteen, and he was taken in the previous November.

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Speaker 5: It was a good ten months not knowing if he

346
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Speaker 5: was alive or not.

347
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Speaker 8: The first email came to me, Hello, we have James

348
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Speaker 8: and want to negotiate for him.

349
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Speaker 6: He is safe, he's.

350
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Speaker 8: Our friend and we do not want to hurt him.

351
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Speaker 8: If you want cooperation, we have rules. You cannot go

352
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Speaker 8: to the media ever about this. If you do, we

353
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Speaker 8: will not negotiate. We want money fast.

354
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Speaker 3: What people hearing this story might expect is that you

355
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Speaker 3: had a huge amount of government support and official support,

356
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Speaker 3: because there's a lot of admin involved in being the

357
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Speaker 3: loved one of a missing person. In terms of trying

358
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Speaker 3: to find information isn't there, and you felt like you

359
00:20:52,342 --> 00:20:55,262
Speaker 3: had to finance your own trips to Washington. You had

360
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Speaker 3: to try and make people understand about Jim's story and

361
00:20:59,942 --> 00:21:02,502
Speaker 3: get his name out there and get some action. That

362
00:21:02,582 --> 00:21:04,742
Speaker 3: must have been a very heavy burden to bears along

363
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Speaker 3: with everything else.

364
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Speaker 5: Well, I had to quit my job and do it

365
00:21:09,622 --> 00:21:13,662
Speaker 5: full time. But I failed. I mean, there was no

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Speaker 5: one in our government in twenty twelve through twenty fourteen

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Speaker 5: to help, no one whose job it was to help

368
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Speaker 5: an innocent American family even find out where Jim was,

369
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Speaker 5: never mind get him out. It was a horrible time.

370
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Speaker 5: But what was even worse was that our government kind

371
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Speaker 5: of falsely assured me that they were on it. And

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Speaker 5: that was difficult because I spent a lot of the

373
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Speaker 5: year just trusting that our government was telling me the truth,

374
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Speaker 5: that they were in fact on it and you know,

375
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Speaker 5: working on getting Jim home when that wasn't true. I

376
00:21:52,862 --> 00:21:56,222
Speaker 5: think the people felt uncomfortable and didn't know what to

377
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Speaker 5: do with me.

378
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Speaker 3: To be honest, you know, I know you have deep faith, Diane.

379
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Speaker 3: Did you have a sense, as his mother like, were

380
00:22:04,302 --> 00:22:07,302
Speaker 3: you like is he alive? Is he not alive? Can

381
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Speaker 3: I feel him?

382
00:22:09,302 --> 00:22:12,502
Speaker 5: Yeah? I really felt he was alive during that time.

383
00:22:12,622 --> 00:22:15,942
Speaker 5: I never felt that we had lost him. I really

384
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Speaker 5: never felt that way. So I just had a feeling

385
00:22:19,142 --> 00:22:22,782
Speaker 5: that he was alive, but we had no idea where

386
00:22:23,182 --> 00:22:27,782
Speaker 5: and who had him. And I struggled to get any

387
00:22:28,302 --> 00:22:32,902
Speaker 5: interest in his plate. I struggled with the media, I

388
00:22:32,942 --> 00:22:36,862
Speaker 5: struggled with the government, and I was really quite ignorant

389
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Speaker 5: about how to go about it. Mia.

390
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Speaker 3: When the kidnappers made contact and asked for money, you

391
00:22:45,382 --> 00:22:49,382
Speaker 3: were told very explicitly that not only would the US

392
00:22:49,462 --> 00:22:53,622
Speaker 3: government not pay any kind of ransom, if you tried

393
00:22:53,662 --> 00:22:56,862
Speaker 3: to raise money yourself, you could be prosecuted.

394
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Speaker 5: Well, we were told that, but much later in twenty fourteen,

395
00:23:03,542 --> 00:23:08,022
Speaker 5: when that initially came through, FBI just reassured us that

396
00:23:08,222 --> 00:23:11,902
Speaker 5: don't worry, they're going to keep negotiating. Let's keep them talking.

397
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Speaker 5: Just tell them you don't have the money, that kind

398
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Speaker 5: of thing. So nobody said anything like that until later

399
00:23:20,062 --> 00:23:24,262
Speaker 5: in twenty fourteen when we discovered that it wasn't just Jim,

400
00:23:24,502 --> 00:23:28,102
Speaker 5: that Jim was also with three other Americans and three

401
00:23:28,182 --> 00:23:35,022
Speaker 5: British citizens, and also several other Europeans. So it was

402
00:23:35,142 --> 00:23:39,942
Speaker 5: that spring of twenty fourteen that a person from the

403
00:23:40,062 --> 00:23:44,462
Speaker 5: National Security Council told us that threatened us actually three times,

404
00:23:44,902 --> 00:23:48,142
Speaker 5: but in way, Mia he was the one who was

405
00:23:48,182 --> 00:23:51,462
Speaker 5: telling us the truth. He's the one that was telling me,

406
00:23:51,742 --> 00:23:55,022
Speaker 5: you know, our government's not going to do anything for him,

407
00:23:55,782 --> 00:23:59,582
Speaker 5: and if you try, you could go to jail. So

408
00:23:59,702 --> 00:24:03,622
Speaker 5: we went ahead and raised pledges anyway. But at the

409
00:24:03,742 --> 00:24:08,342
Speaker 5: time the captors did not engage with us again. They

410
00:24:08,422 --> 00:24:11,782
Speaker 5: stopped talking to us after a month after they proved

411
00:24:11,782 --> 00:24:15,942
Speaker 5: to us that they had Jim. They stopped communicating essentially

412
00:24:16,062 --> 00:24:18,822
Speaker 5: until two weeks before they murdered Jim.

413
00:24:19,902 --> 00:24:22,582
Speaker 3: During the time during that second year, not a lot

414
00:24:22,622 --> 00:24:25,622
Speaker 3: is known about that first year that Jim was in captivity.

415
00:24:26,222 --> 00:24:28,822
Speaker 3: In the second year, though, you have learned quite a

416
00:24:28,822 --> 00:24:31,662
Speaker 3: lot because a lot of the men that he was

417
00:24:31,702 --> 00:24:35,982
Speaker 3: held with, the Europeans, the British, some of them have

418
00:24:36,182 --> 00:24:42,142
Speaker 3: been released and they paint quite an extraordinary picture of

419
00:24:42,782 --> 00:24:44,902
Speaker 3: a time when I think it was up to eighteen

420
00:24:44,942 --> 00:24:49,982
Speaker 3: of them were held together. What have you learned about.

421
00:24:49,542 --> 00:24:53,462
Speaker 5: That time, Well, it's really thanks to many of them

422
00:24:53,742 --> 00:24:58,142
Speaker 5: and Jim's dear friend Brian Oaks, the talented director of

423
00:24:58,262 --> 00:25:01,862
Speaker 5: the film Jim, the James Foley Story, that I found

424
00:25:01,942 --> 00:25:05,502
Speaker 5: out what Jim's last two years were like really, and

425
00:25:05,582 --> 00:25:09,462
Speaker 5: I was just so grateful he was with such good people,

426
00:25:10,542 --> 00:25:15,902
Speaker 5: all brave people who were either journalists or aid workers.

427
00:25:16,302 --> 00:25:19,982
Speaker 5: So they were all people who were interested in others

428
00:25:20,302 --> 00:25:22,902
Speaker 5: and really cared about the suffering that was going on

429
00:25:22,982 --> 00:25:26,102
Speaker 5: in serious So they were all very good people, very

430
00:25:26,182 --> 00:25:31,542
Speaker 5: interesting people. They managed all kinds of things to try

431
00:25:31,582 --> 00:25:35,382
Speaker 5: to survive. Jim was there the longest. Jim was one

432
00:25:35,382 --> 00:25:39,662
Speaker 5: of the very earliest. Jim and John Pantley were the first,

433
00:25:39,942 --> 00:25:42,742
Speaker 5: so they were held the longest and the first part

434
00:25:42,862 --> 00:25:47,382
Speaker 5: of their captivity. They were starved and tortured a lot.

435
00:25:48,902 --> 00:25:51,742
Speaker 11: You never know what's going to happen next, and that's

436
00:25:52,142 --> 00:25:55,982
Speaker 11: much more difficult to handle and to deal with than

437
00:25:56,022 --> 00:25:56,582
Speaker 11: the beating.

438
00:25:57,102 --> 00:25:58,942
Speaker 5: You know, at some point we were so hungry.

439
00:25:59,222 --> 00:26:01,022
Speaker 12: We ate banana piles.

440
00:26:03,102 --> 00:26:05,062
Speaker 11: Arrange pills were like our candidates.

441
00:26:07,302 --> 00:26:09,102
Speaker 5: We received the chicken.

442
00:26:08,822 --> 00:26:11,062
Speaker 3: Ones at the boons.

443
00:26:12,902 --> 00:26:16,502
Speaker 11: If you are staff, you think about food, but once

444
00:26:16,622 --> 00:26:21,622
Speaker 11: you eat, you only think about going on the sea.

445
00:26:22,342 --> 00:26:27,422
Speaker 11: Are going on the forest in the open space is

446
00:26:27,502 --> 00:26:28,582
Speaker 11: the only thing you want.

447
00:26:30,982 --> 00:26:34,502
Speaker 5: But later on, as others came in, I think the

448
00:26:34,582 --> 00:26:37,622
Speaker 5: captors began to realize they needed to keep them alive

449
00:26:37,902 --> 00:26:43,742
Speaker 5: because European nations were negotiating for the release of their people.

450
00:26:44,462 --> 00:26:47,542
Speaker 5: So all those people did come out, and they're the

451
00:26:47,582 --> 00:26:50,422
Speaker 5: ones that have been able to share stories with me

452
00:26:51,022 --> 00:26:51,422
Speaker 5: very much.

453
00:26:51,462 --> 00:26:53,742
Speaker 3: The descriptions of Jim was as the big brother of

454
00:26:53,742 --> 00:26:57,742
Speaker 3: the group. He being an American, was the target of

455
00:26:57,942 --> 00:27:02,262
Speaker 3: a lot of horrific treatment by the gods and by

456
00:27:02,302 --> 00:27:04,902
Speaker 3: the captors. But you know, they did things like they

457
00:27:04,942 --> 00:27:08,262
Speaker 3: played games of risk. He managed to draw aboard, and

458
00:27:08,342 --> 00:27:14,142
Speaker 3: they used little beans the pieces, and how they supported

459
00:27:14,182 --> 00:27:17,022
Speaker 3: one another. On Christmas Day, they didn't have, obviously anything

460
00:27:17,102 --> 00:27:18,742
Speaker 3: to give one another, so they all sat in a

461
00:27:18,742 --> 00:27:21,582
Speaker 3: circle and gave one another the gift of each saying

462
00:27:21,582 --> 00:27:25,342
Speaker 3: a lovely thing about everyone else in the group.

463
00:27:25,542 --> 00:27:28,822
Speaker 12: And I remember that I said to James that, James,

464
00:27:28,822 --> 00:27:31,782
Speaker 12: first time I met you was you know, in this prison,

465
00:27:31,862 --> 00:27:35,662
Speaker 12: and you looked as confused as if you were just

466
00:27:36,582 --> 00:27:39,022
Speaker 12: dumped down on the Earth from the moon or something.

467
00:27:39,342 --> 00:27:43,462
Speaker 12: And you basically destroyed my whole idea of this great

468
00:27:43,622 --> 00:27:48,262
Speaker 12: war journalist, Jeames right folly. And then suddenly I find

469
00:27:48,262 --> 00:27:52,982
Speaker 12: out that you are very clumsy, you're very bad at sports,

470
00:27:55,742 --> 00:28:01,022
Speaker 12: But then again you you're the most honest person. There

471
00:28:01,062 --> 00:28:05,222
Speaker 12: is no evil at all to find in your dams.

472
00:28:05,542 --> 00:28:08,502
Speaker 3: And there were times when they would fight, and Jim

473
00:28:08,542 --> 00:28:11,142
Speaker 3: would be the one who would say times break up

474
00:28:11,222 --> 00:28:15,662
Speaker 3: physical fights. And I got a really strong sense by

475
00:28:15,702 --> 00:28:20,862
Speaker 3: listening to these other men of the character of Jim,

476
00:28:20,902 --> 00:28:26,262
Speaker 3: his incredible resilience, his incredible optimism, and just being a

477
00:28:26,262 --> 00:28:26,822
Speaker 3: good guy.

478
00:28:27,422 --> 00:28:30,422
Speaker 5: He was a good guy. And you know, speaking of

479
00:28:30,542 --> 00:28:34,062
Speaker 5: the film, the film gets into all that. The book

480
00:28:34,222 --> 00:28:39,982
Speaker 5: American Mother is more about what's happened since Jim's murder.

481
00:28:40,382 --> 00:28:44,062
Speaker 3: When you talk about the difference between the fact that

482
00:28:44,142 --> 00:28:46,502
Speaker 3: a lot of the Europeans though, and people were negotiating

483
00:28:46,542 --> 00:28:49,062
Speaker 3: and they were released, were you in contact with the

484
00:28:49,102 --> 00:28:50,462
Speaker 3: other families.

485
00:28:50,782 --> 00:28:54,342
Speaker 5: No, because I really, I mean, our FBI did not

486
00:28:54,502 --> 00:28:57,982
Speaker 5: even tell us who the American families were. We didn't

487
00:28:58,062 --> 00:29:03,222
Speaker 5: know that until about twenty fourteen. So the European families,

488
00:29:03,262 --> 00:29:06,702
Speaker 5: we really didn't know, except when I went to France.

489
00:29:07,222 --> 00:29:11,222
Speaker 5: I did go to France and too Spain, trying to

490
00:29:11,262 --> 00:29:14,222
Speaker 5: see if they could help me. I did have a

491
00:29:14,302 --> 00:29:18,502
Speaker 5: chance actually to meet some of the French friends of

492
00:29:18,542 --> 00:29:22,782
Speaker 5: the hostages anyway, and one family member, but I didn't

493
00:29:22,822 --> 00:29:25,422
Speaker 5: know they get to know them well until afterwards.

494
00:29:26,182 --> 00:29:28,982
Speaker 3: After the break, Diane tells me about the day the

495
00:29:29,302 --> 00:29:33,342
Speaker 3: unimaginable happened. A journalist called her and told her to

496
00:29:33,342 --> 00:29:35,942
Speaker 3: look at Twitter, where she saw an image of Jim.

497
00:29:36,502 --> 00:29:39,222
Speaker 5: At that time, I just hoped it was a cool

498
00:29:39,422 --> 00:29:41,382
Speaker 5: joke and it had been photoshopped.

499
00:29:41,662 --> 00:29:50,142
Speaker 3: We'll be back shortly, Diane. I want to ask you

500
00:29:50,182 --> 00:29:52,742
Speaker 3: about the call you got. It was from a journalist,

501
00:29:53,142 --> 00:29:55,742
Speaker 3: wasn't it. It was what happened in that phone call,

502
00:29:55,782 --> 00:29:58,222
Speaker 3: if it's not too painful to recount.

503
00:29:58,422 --> 00:30:02,902
Speaker 5: No, it was a beautiful August day and my sister

504
00:30:03,062 --> 00:30:06,262
Speaker 5: was visiting and we received this call out of the

505
00:30:06,302 --> 00:30:11,462
Speaker 5: blue from this journalist who was crying. She was sobbing

506
00:30:11,662 --> 00:30:15,582
Speaker 5: on the phone, and I could hardly understand what she

507
00:30:16,022 --> 00:30:19,582
Speaker 5: was saying. But finally I figured out she was saying,

508
00:30:20,022 --> 00:30:23,542
Speaker 5: look at Twitter. And then she hung up, and so

509
00:30:23,662 --> 00:30:26,702
Speaker 5: I looked at Twitter, and that's when we saw the

510
00:30:27,222 --> 00:30:33,582
Speaker 5: horrific picture of Jim being beheaded. And I did look

511
00:30:33,622 --> 00:30:35,782
Speaker 5: at the image because I wanted to make sure it

512
00:30:35,862 --> 00:30:40,022
Speaker 5: was Jim and it was. At that time, I just

513
00:30:40,142 --> 00:30:43,862
Speaker 5: hoped it was a cruel joke and it had been photoshopped.

514
00:30:44,022 --> 00:30:47,062
Speaker 5: That was my hope, and so I reached out to

515
00:30:47,142 --> 00:30:50,782
Speaker 5: everybody I knew. I wrote emails to everybody I had

516
00:30:50,782 --> 00:30:55,022
Speaker 5: worked with for the past two years. But nobody answered

517
00:30:55,062 --> 00:30:58,782
Speaker 5: me that day. That in itself was difficult not to

518
00:30:58,862 --> 00:31:01,902
Speaker 5: hear from anybody that morning. You'd been visited by the

519
00:31:02,022 --> 00:31:05,702
Speaker 5: FBI for the first time in a long time, exactly,

520
00:31:05,782 --> 00:31:08,422
Speaker 5: but they didn't seem to know anything. I really don't

521
00:31:08,462 --> 00:31:12,542
Speaker 5: think they were disings. They didn't seem to know. It

522
00:31:12,622 --> 00:31:16,662
Speaker 5: seemed odd to me after two years that they're asking

523
00:31:16,702 --> 00:31:21,222
Speaker 5: from a DNA now it seems so odd, But they didn't,

524
00:31:21,382 --> 00:31:22,902
Speaker 5: you know, make a deal about.

525
00:31:22,582 --> 00:31:26,462
Speaker 3: It, Diane. The video and the photo I've not looked

526
00:31:26,502 --> 00:31:30,342
Speaker 3: at either, but I know the image is seen in

527
00:31:30,382 --> 00:31:33,582
Speaker 3: the minds of many people of Jim in the orange

528
00:31:33,622 --> 00:31:37,382
Speaker 3: jumpsuit in the desert, with the man behind him hooded.

529
00:31:38,822 --> 00:31:40,822
Speaker 3: I don't even know what to ask you, Diane, in

530
00:31:40,902 --> 00:31:44,902
Speaker 3: terms of when you talk about that and the image

531
00:31:44,982 --> 00:31:48,262
Speaker 3: that you have. Is it something that you compartmentalize. I

532
00:31:48,302 --> 00:31:50,462
Speaker 3: know you never watched the video, but you did see

533
00:31:50,462 --> 00:31:55,702
Speaker 3: the photo. Is it something that exists quite separate from

534
00:31:55,822 --> 00:32:00,942
Speaker 3: your memories of Jim and your feelings about him as

535
00:32:00,942 --> 00:32:02,462
Speaker 3: someone you love and your son.

536
00:32:02,822 --> 00:32:06,222
Speaker 5: Of course, Mia, I mean, it's nothing I will ever

537
00:32:06,342 --> 00:32:09,702
Speaker 5: dwell on, and that's partly why the work of the

538
00:32:09,822 --> 00:32:12,942
Speaker 5: James Fallow Foundation has been so important to me because

539
00:32:12,982 --> 00:32:15,982
Speaker 5: that's been a way of keeping Jim's goodness and moral

540
00:32:16,022 --> 00:32:21,902
Speaker 5: courage alive. So that is what I strive to focus on.

541
00:32:22,502 --> 00:32:25,222
Speaker 5: Jim would have wanted something good to come out of

542
00:32:25,262 --> 00:32:30,302
Speaker 5: his sacrifice, if you will, for his country and fellow Americans.

543
00:32:30,342 --> 00:32:34,942
Speaker 5: So Jim has challenged me big time. But thanks to

544
00:32:35,142 --> 00:32:38,022
Speaker 5: my faith in God and the goodness of so many people,

545
00:32:38,782 --> 00:32:43,182
Speaker 5: that's what has made anything good possible. So I'm very grateful.

546
00:32:43,622 --> 00:32:47,222
Speaker 3: In American Mother, you write about Jim's moral courage, Can

547
00:32:47,262 --> 00:32:49,622
Speaker 3: you explain what you mean by moral courage?

548
00:32:50,182 --> 00:32:54,142
Speaker 5: I write about it only because Jim was talking about

549
00:32:54,142 --> 00:32:56,342
Speaker 5: it when he came home from Libya.

550
00:32:56,662 --> 00:33:00,542
Speaker 9: There's physical courage, right, for some reason, I have physical courage,

551
00:33:01,182 --> 00:33:04,222
Speaker 9: But really think about it, that's nothing apart to moral courage.

552
00:33:05,702 --> 00:33:09,862
Speaker 5: That we couldn't have true journalism without the moral courage

553
00:33:09,942 --> 00:33:15,782
Speaker 5: to report on stories that might affect one's career or

554
00:33:15,822 --> 00:33:20,142
Speaker 5: be dangerous to tell. And so I was, really and

555
00:33:20,182 --> 00:33:25,022
Speaker 5: I'm still today challenged by that to dare to have

556
00:33:25,102 --> 00:33:28,822
Speaker 5: the moral courage to fight for what is right and

557
00:33:29,062 --> 00:33:31,702
Speaker 5: to try to make a difference for others. But That's

558
00:33:31,742 --> 00:33:35,582
Speaker 5: what I feel Jim was talking about. And so we've

559
00:33:35,982 --> 00:33:40,622
Speaker 5: used that idea of inspiring moral courage in all our

560
00:33:40,662 --> 00:33:45,182
Speaker 5: work in our government work, trying to inspire the best

561
00:33:45,342 --> 00:33:49,022
Speaker 5: of our government to care about fellow citizens, do the

562
00:33:49,102 --> 00:33:54,262
Speaker 5: right thing, to help families, support families, actually listen and

563
00:33:54,302 --> 00:33:57,742
Speaker 5: tell them the truth. And the same with our Journalist

564
00:33:57,822 --> 00:34:02,502
Speaker 5: Safety program. We work with aspiring journalists and freelancers and

565
00:34:02,862 --> 00:34:08,262
Speaker 5: we talk about having the moral courage to report the truth,

566
00:34:09,062 --> 00:34:11,982
Speaker 5: to do it as safely as possible, obviously, but to

567
00:34:12,182 --> 00:34:15,262
Speaker 5: aspire to have the courage to do the right thing

568
00:34:15,342 --> 00:34:16,462
Speaker 5: in terms of reporting.

569
00:34:17,142 --> 00:34:20,782
Speaker 3: You have some pretty extraordinary moral courage. Doing what you're doing,

570
00:34:20,902 --> 00:34:24,182
Speaker 3: writing the book, giving interviews, speaking about your son.

571
00:34:24,782 --> 00:34:29,542
Speaker 5: It keeps Jim's spirit alive, Miya, and that is very important.

572
00:34:30,262 --> 00:34:33,302
Speaker 3: Is it a way to keep mothering him, mothering him?

573
00:34:33,862 --> 00:34:37,102
Speaker 5: I don't know. He's challenged me, so I almost feel

574
00:34:37,142 --> 00:34:42,702
Speaker 5: like he's parenting me, challenging me to dare to do better,

575
00:34:43,222 --> 00:34:46,462
Speaker 5: dare to be better, and dare to speak the truth

576
00:34:46,542 --> 00:34:50,222
Speaker 5: to power, you know, when it's necessary, but also to

577
00:34:50,262 --> 00:34:54,222
Speaker 5: try to inspire youngsters. I really think it's important that

578
00:34:54,342 --> 00:34:59,142
Speaker 5: our children and youth are challenged to make a difference

579
00:34:59,182 --> 00:35:02,222
Speaker 5: in the world. We need people who aspire to do

580
00:35:02,302 --> 00:35:05,982
Speaker 5: good things. Nya, speaking of truth to power.

581
00:35:06,462 --> 00:35:11,062
Speaker 3: It took three days for then President Obama to reach out.

582
00:35:11,462 --> 00:35:14,182
Speaker 3: He had a phone call with your husband, he did.

583
00:35:14,462 --> 00:35:17,262
Speaker 3: It was some time later that you were invited to

584
00:35:17,302 --> 00:35:20,182
Speaker 3: the White House to meet with him. The line he

585
00:35:20,262 --> 00:35:22,102
Speaker 3: kept using with your husband and then with you, as

586
00:35:22,142 --> 00:35:27,302
Speaker 3: you write in the book, is Jim was our highest priority.

587
00:35:27,422 --> 00:35:32,142
Speaker 3: Jim was my highest priority. Okay, exactly was he?

588
00:35:32,262 --> 00:35:35,142
Speaker 5: Though, of course not. And that's why I was not

589
00:35:35,262 --> 00:35:41,622
Speaker 5: particularly impressed with that comment, because maybe in his head

590
00:35:41,822 --> 00:35:45,502
Speaker 5: he was telling himself that, but he totally failed. He

591
00:35:45,542 --> 00:35:51,102
Speaker 5: tied the hands of the FBI. He chose very definitely

592
00:35:51,542 --> 00:35:55,742
Speaker 5: not to negotiate, and that costs the lives of four

593
00:35:55,862 --> 00:36:01,422
Speaker 5: young Americans. He did not value their lives, and that

594
00:36:01,502 --> 00:36:05,422
Speaker 5: made me angry. My righteous anger, if you will, fueled

595
00:36:05,622 --> 00:36:09,942
Speaker 5: the start of the Holy Foundation and also fuel the

596
00:36:09,982 --> 00:36:13,782
Speaker 5: star of a lot of good people stepping up to

597
00:36:13,862 --> 00:36:17,542
Speaker 5: help me, because a lot of people saw the tragedy

598
00:36:17,662 --> 00:36:21,102
Speaker 5: in it all, and so here our great nation can't

599
00:36:21,142 --> 00:36:24,342
Speaker 5: even have the backs of the innocent Americans who go

600
00:36:24,422 --> 00:36:28,222
Speaker 5: out to report the truth or help others who are

601
00:36:28,262 --> 00:36:32,542
Speaker 5: suffering in the world. It was horrible. It was the worst.

602
00:36:32,862 --> 00:36:35,862
Speaker 5: I was so embarrassed and angry as an American.

603
00:36:36,342 --> 00:36:38,702
Speaker 3: You make the point so eloquently in your book that

604
00:36:38,942 --> 00:36:41,582
Speaker 3: the argument made by officials to you is that if

605
00:36:41,622 --> 00:36:44,862
Speaker 3: we negotiate with terrorists and we pay ransoms, that puts

606
00:36:45,102 --> 00:36:48,702
Speaker 3: every American abroad at risk and makes it more likely

607
00:36:48,742 --> 00:36:51,462
Speaker 3: that more people will be kidnapped. But you say that

608
00:36:51,542 --> 00:36:54,142
Speaker 3: other countries do it very well. They do it quietly,

609
00:36:54,182 --> 00:36:56,422
Speaker 3: they do it behind the scenes, they do it successfully

610
00:36:56,422 --> 00:37:00,382
Speaker 3: to negotiate the release of their citizens. And you also

611
00:37:00,462 --> 00:37:03,022
Speaker 3: point out that in terms of the actual money involved,

612
00:37:04,022 --> 00:37:07,302
Speaker 3: it costs forty million dollars to send a drone into

613
00:37:07,382 --> 00:37:10,222
Speaker 3: a country that might never come back, and so from

614
00:37:10,262 --> 00:37:13,142
Speaker 3: a financial point of view, it can hardly be argued

615
00:37:13,822 --> 00:37:17,822
Speaker 3: paying ransom is out of the budget, so to speak.

616
00:37:18,462 --> 00:37:20,822
Speaker 3: And you actually have made a difference, perhaps not with

617
00:37:20,902 --> 00:37:24,062
Speaker 3: the negotiating with the terrorists, but in terms of some

618
00:37:24,102 --> 00:37:26,062
Speaker 3: of the things that have happened, some of the things

619
00:37:26,062 --> 00:37:30,262
Speaker 3: that the James Foley Foundation has made happen. What are

620
00:37:30,342 --> 00:37:32,862
Speaker 3: some of those things? Because Obama it obviously did have

621
00:37:32,902 --> 00:37:35,862
Speaker 3: an impact on him. He made some announcements after meeting

622
00:37:35,902 --> 00:37:36,222
Speaker 3: with you.

623
00:37:36,742 --> 00:37:40,942
Speaker 5: First of all, there was no evidence that showed that

624
00:37:41,542 --> 00:37:47,022
Speaker 5: paying ransom increases the captivity of others. Americans are targeted

625
00:37:47,142 --> 00:37:50,982
Speaker 5: all the time. If anything, the research showed that if

626
00:37:51,022 --> 00:37:54,742
Speaker 5: you do not negotiate, your citizens are going to be killed,

627
00:37:55,102 --> 00:37:58,542
Speaker 5: and that's exactly what happened. The British and the US

628
00:37:58,662 --> 00:38:02,342
Speaker 5: chose not to negotiate and all their citizens were killed.

629
00:38:02,382 --> 00:38:04,702
Speaker 3: So why do they do that, Diane, Why do they

630
00:38:04,862 --> 00:38:06,302
Speaker 3: well have that policy?

631
00:38:06,742 --> 00:38:10,222
Speaker 5: It was because they went by this slogan that it

632
00:38:10,502 --> 00:38:14,142
Speaker 5: makes sense. I suppose when you think about it, that

633
00:38:14,222 --> 00:38:19,742
Speaker 5: it would incentivize, but the reality that is not the reality. However,

634
00:38:20,262 --> 00:38:24,982
Speaker 5: I do think more and more countries now are starting

635
00:38:25,022 --> 00:38:30,942
Speaker 5: to copy some of the terrorist groups and targeting our citizens.

636
00:38:31,182 --> 00:38:35,582
Speaker 5: So I do feel very strongly. The Fully Foundation strongly

637
00:38:35,622 --> 00:38:39,462
Speaker 5: feels we must as a nation not only bring find

638
00:38:39,502 --> 00:38:43,742
Speaker 5: ways to bring our people home, but also to deter

639
00:38:44,022 --> 00:38:48,342
Speaker 5: the horror and practice of people being taken and used

640
00:38:48,382 --> 00:38:52,342
Speaker 5: as political ponts. It's a dual challenge. It's not only

641
00:38:52,422 --> 00:38:56,342
Speaker 5: the challenge of trying to help citizens who are taken

642
00:38:56,422 --> 00:38:59,742
Speaker 5: hostage abroad, but also at the same time we must

643
00:38:59,942 --> 00:39:04,342
Speaker 5: work to deter the practice and sometimes they are are

644
00:39:04,382 --> 00:39:09,102
Speaker 5: in conflict. So that is the challenge we have before us. However,

645
00:39:09,422 --> 00:39:12,702
Speaker 5: every nation, in my opinion, should have the moral courage

646
00:39:12,742 --> 00:39:17,302
Speaker 5: to have the backs of innocence citizens who are targeted

647
00:39:17,822 --> 00:39:20,862
Speaker 5: simply for being a citizen of their country.

648
00:39:21,582 --> 00:39:24,462
Speaker 3: Up next, why Diane decided to meet with one of

649
00:39:24,502 --> 00:39:27,702
Speaker 3: the men responsible for killing her son and what she

650
00:39:27,742 --> 00:39:28,342
Speaker 3: said to him.

651
00:39:28,582 --> 00:39:31,142
Speaker 5: All of us are flawed, right, We all make good

652
00:39:31,182 --> 00:39:35,142
Speaker 5: decisions and bad ones. But in his case, he's made

653
00:39:35,342 --> 00:39:40,782
Speaker 5: such an extraordinarily bad decision to join an asis, and

654
00:39:40,862 --> 00:39:46,782
Speaker 5: all the horrific deeds that he's lost out on his life.

655
00:39:47,022 --> 00:39:55,262
Speaker 3: Stay with us. Speaking of moral courage, you chose to

656
00:39:55,302 --> 00:40:00,342
Speaker 3: meet one of the men who worked to murder your son.

657
00:40:00,982 --> 00:40:05,702
Speaker 3: Alexander Coti was one of the Beatles, as they were nicknamed,

658
00:40:06,422 --> 00:40:09,462
Speaker 3: members of ISIS who one was killed in a drone strike,

659
00:40:09,582 --> 00:40:14,502
Speaker 3: two were brought to America and tried and charged and convicted.

660
00:40:15,702 --> 00:40:18,702
Speaker 3: When did the opportunity come up to meet with him

661
00:40:18,742 --> 00:40:21,302
Speaker 3: in jail? And what were the conversations in the Foley

662
00:40:21,342 --> 00:40:22,822
Speaker 3: household about that?

663
00:40:23,622 --> 00:40:27,262
Speaker 5: First of all, it took seven years Alexander Cody and

664
00:40:27,302 --> 00:40:32,462
Speaker 5: al Shaffio shake the two surviving Beetles if you will,

665
00:40:32,542 --> 00:40:37,382
Speaker 5: or Jahadis were kidnapped in twenty eighteen, but it took

666
00:40:37,742 --> 00:40:42,742
Speaker 5: years for them to be extradited to the United States

667
00:40:42,782 --> 00:40:45,342
Speaker 5: for a trial. That was thanks to a lot of

668
00:40:45,382 --> 00:40:49,902
Speaker 5: hard work with the British government and our Department of Justice.

669
00:40:50,622 --> 00:40:54,262
Speaker 5: When they finally did arrive, one of them, Al Shaffiel

670
00:40:54,382 --> 00:40:58,782
Speaker 5: Shak was very defiant, wanted a full trial, and he

671
00:40:59,222 --> 00:41:04,062
Speaker 5: had it in twenty twenty two. But Alexander pleaded guilty

672
00:41:04,222 --> 00:41:08,822
Speaker 5: to all eight counts accounts of kidnapping, torture, all of

673
00:41:08,862 --> 00:41:14,102
Speaker 5: it accessory, and part of his plea deal was his

674
00:41:14,422 --> 00:41:18,902
Speaker 5: offer to speak to victims. So when I heard that,

675
00:41:19,222 --> 00:41:22,942
Speaker 5: I was interested in speaking to him because I knew

676
00:41:23,062 --> 00:41:26,422
Speaker 5: Jim would have Jim would not have wanted me to

677
00:41:26,462 --> 00:41:29,422
Speaker 5: be afraid of him, and Jim would have wanted me

678
00:41:29,502 --> 00:41:34,462
Speaker 5: to hear him out. Jim often worked with many disenfranchised

679
00:41:34,502 --> 00:41:39,902
Speaker 5: youth ex felons in Chicago and troubled inner city kids

680
00:41:39,902 --> 00:41:44,262
Speaker 5: in Phoenix and Holyoak, so Jim kind of had always

681
00:41:44,302 --> 00:41:46,862
Speaker 5: had a heart for the underdog. He definitely would have

682
00:41:46,942 --> 00:41:49,982
Speaker 5: wanted me to hear him out. But also as a mom,

683
00:41:50,142 --> 00:41:53,542
Speaker 5: I kind of wanted to tell him who Jim was.

684
00:41:53,982 --> 00:41:56,822
Speaker 5: But you know, the end result of the whole thing

685
00:41:57,022 --> 00:42:00,542
Speaker 5: was just incredibly sad. Mia we all lost. You know,

686
00:42:00,622 --> 00:42:06,262
Speaker 5: when hatred reigns, everybody loses. We lost our beloved Jim,

687
00:42:06,422 --> 00:42:10,782
Speaker 5: a very talented journalist, and he's lost his free them.

688
00:42:11,502 --> 00:42:15,382
Speaker 5: Perhaps he'll never even see his family or his homeland again,

689
00:42:16,062 --> 00:42:19,502
Speaker 5: so he too has lost. Everybody's lost. It was a

690
00:42:19,742 --> 00:42:24,662
Speaker 5: very sad but good experience in many ways. Odd as

691
00:42:24,662 --> 00:42:28,942
Speaker 5: it seems, but there was an odd grace in those days.

692
00:42:29,062 --> 00:42:29,982
Speaker 5: In many ways.

693
00:42:30,422 --> 00:42:33,182
Speaker 3: It sounds like you have empathy for him, or maybe,

694
00:42:33,262 --> 00:42:35,382
Speaker 3: if not empathy, sympathy.

695
00:42:36,182 --> 00:42:38,862
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think I do. He's the same age as

696
00:42:38,862 --> 00:42:42,862
Speaker 5: one of our other sons. Because of his choices, he

697
00:42:43,862 --> 00:42:45,862
Speaker 5: will be in jail for the rest of his life

698
00:42:46,022 --> 00:42:49,862
Speaker 5: and never be free, never see his family again. I

699
00:42:49,902 --> 00:42:52,942
Speaker 5: have a lot of empathy and sympathy for him. It's

700
00:42:53,102 --> 00:42:57,382
Speaker 5: very sad. It's tragic. All of us are flawed, right,

701
00:42:57,422 --> 00:43:00,222
Speaker 5: we all make good decisions of bad ones. But in

702
00:43:00,262 --> 00:43:06,542
Speaker 5: his case, he's made such an extraordinarily bad decision to

703
00:43:06,662 --> 00:43:11,062
Speaker 5: join in Isis and all the horrific deeds that he's

704
00:43:11,622 --> 00:43:15,622
Speaker 5: lost out on his life. It's very sad. I mean,

705
00:43:15,662 --> 00:43:19,142
Speaker 5: I think accountability and justice is important. I don't mean

706
00:43:19,222 --> 00:43:25,342
Speaker 5: to imply that it's not, because it is extraordinarily important

707
00:43:25,422 --> 00:43:30,142
Speaker 5: that captors and people who are so violate human rights

708
00:43:30,222 --> 00:43:32,982
Speaker 5: in such horrific ways as they did, they must be

709
00:43:33,102 --> 00:43:37,782
Speaker 5: held accountable. And I think it's a very just sentence

710
00:43:37,862 --> 00:43:40,982
Speaker 5: for him. But it's still sad. As a mom, it's

711
00:43:40,982 --> 00:43:41,982
Speaker 5: still sad.

712
00:43:42,142 --> 00:43:44,582
Speaker 3: When you sat across from him in the hours that

713
00:43:44,622 --> 00:43:47,782
Speaker 3: you spent with him, was there ever a moment where

714
00:43:47,822 --> 00:43:51,702
Speaker 3: you just wanted to lunge across the table and scratch

715
00:43:51,742 --> 00:43:52,862
Speaker 3: his eyes out? No?

716
00:43:53,582 --> 00:43:56,342
Speaker 5: Not really, no, yah No?

717
00:43:56,862 --> 00:43:59,582
Speaker 3: Is that just me, Diane, I clearly don't have any

718
00:43:59,582 --> 00:44:01,662
Speaker 3: grace like the rage.

719
00:44:02,102 --> 00:44:05,302
Speaker 5: I didn't have that rage towards him to me. In

720
00:44:05,342 --> 00:44:10,422
Speaker 5: many ways, Alexander is also a victim. He's a victim

721
00:44:10,542 --> 00:44:18,022
Speaker 5: of poverty, of brainwashing, the jihadis hatred in many ways,

722
00:44:18,062 --> 00:44:21,342
Speaker 5: he's a victim that doesn't excuse the horrific things he

723
00:44:21,382 --> 00:44:25,942
Speaker 5: did in any way, and he certainly needs to serve

724
00:44:25,982 --> 00:44:30,702
Speaker 5: as sentence. But it's sad. It was our government I

725
00:44:30,862 --> 00:44:34,502
Speaker 5: was angry at because our government has the power to

726
00:44:34,542 --> 00:44:38,382
Speaker 5: do a lot, and our government considered our son and

727
00:44:38,422 --> 00:44:43,462
Speaker 5: the other Americans as collateral damage. So I was very

728
00:44:43,502 --> 00:44:48,462
Speaker 5: angry at our government. So all my anger was fueled

729
00:44:48,502 --> 00:44:52,302
Speaker 5: towards writing that wrong and helping our country to do

730
00:44:52,422 --> 00:44:55,902
Speaker 5: much better, to have the backs of brave Americans.

731
00:44:56,062 --> 00:44:58,062
Speaker 3: Did Alexander say sorry to you?

732
00:44:58,622 --> 00:45:02,702
Speaker 5: He expressed much remorse many times for what our family

733
00:45:02,742 --> 00:45:07,862
Speaker 5: had gone through. He very humanly justified his actions as

734
00:45:07,862 --> 00:45:12,822
Speaker 5: being a soldier in war, but he expressed a lot

735
00:45:12,862 --> 00:45:17,182
Speaker 5: of remorse to me multiple times and in letters to me.

736
00:45:17,582 --> 00:45:20,702
Speaker 3: And when you left there, how did you feel?

737
00:45:21,182 --> 00:45:24,582
Speaker 5: I had more peace. I felt like I had told

738
00:45:24,662 --> 00:45:29,422
Speaker 5: him who Jim was, and I feel like I had

739
00:45:29,542 --> 00:45:33,942
Speaker 5: encouraged him in his faith. He's an intelligent young man,

740
00:45:34,262 --> 00:45:38,142
Speaker 5: hopefully in his incarceration, and who knows, maybe he'll become

741
00:45:38,182 --> 00:45:42,022
Speaker 5: a writer or do some good is what I hope

742
00:45:42,182 --> 00:45:46,182
Speaker 5: for him, to make amends for the horrible sadness he's

743
00:45:46,222 --> 00:45:47,782
Speaker 5: inflicted on so many people.

744
00:45:48,342 --> 00:45:49,982
Speaker 3: Are you still in contact with him?

745
00:45:50,382 --> 00:45:53,342
Speaker 5: No, I mean the prisons don't allow that, especially for

746
00:45:53,422 --> 00:45:58,822
Speaker 5: a prisoner of his caliber. If you will, he's in isolation. Yeah,

747
00:45:58,902 --> 00:46:01,542
Speaker 5: I don't know if I'll ever hear from him, but

748
00:46:01,582 --> 00:46:05,182
Speaker 5: they're very strict about who the prisoners are allowed to

749
00:46:05,582 --> 00:46:08,742
Speaker 5: communicate to and when and how all that.

750
00:46:09,142 --> 00:46:13,022
Speaker 3: I just want to finish, Diane by asking about when

751
00:46:13,862 --> 00:46:19,582
Speaker 3: you experience loss and grief in such a tragic, horrific way,

752
00:46:20,502 --> 00:46:25,662
Speaker 3: the public element of it, how does that impact the grief?

753
00:46:26,062 --> 00:46:29,902
Speaker 3: What happened to Jim was so deeply personal to your family,

754
00:46:30,902 --> 00:46:34,302
Speaker 3: and yet it was something that was so public. I mean,

755
00:46:34,342 --> 00:46:38,142
Speaker 3: the fact that that image is so seared into the

756
00:46:38,182 --> 00:46:42,222
Speaker 3: minds of so many people. How do you feel about that?

757
00:46:42,262 --> 00:46:44,022
Speaker 3: How do you process that well?

758
00:46:44,342 --> 00:46:49,422
Speaker 5: I think the only good thing about that was that

759
00:46:50,182 --> 00:46:56,142
Speaker 5: it was horrifying to everyone, and therefore good people stepped up.

760
00:46:56,302 --> 00:47:00,582
Speaker 5: I mean that's when we had an outpouring of donations

761
00:47:00,702 --> 00:47:04,542
Speaker 5: that has helped sustain the work of the James Foley Foundation.

762
00:47:05,382 --> 00:47:08,902
Speaker 5: Part of the reason for the book so that people

763
00:47:08,942 --> 00:47:12,702
Speaker 5: would be aware and if it's of interest to them.

764
00:47:12,982 --> 00:47:17,182
Speaker 5: Small NGOs like ours are always looking for support any

765
00:47:17,262 --> 00:47:22,182
Speaker 5: generous people who are concerned about the national security threat

766
00:47:22,622 --> 00:47:27,102
Speaker 5: that it is and wanting to inspire moral courage and journalists.

767
00:47:28,302 --> 00:47:31,462
Speaker 5: We always need the good people. We need the generous

768
00:47:31,542 --> 00:47:35,742
Speaker 5: people mia and so that was the only good part

769
00:47:35,982 --> 00:47:39,102
Speaker 5: of it being so public, is that we were able

770
00:47:39,182 --> 00:47:42,582
Speaker 5: to reach all the best people in the world. I mean,

771
00:47:42,622 --> 00:47:46,662
Speaker 5: we received gifts money from all over the world for

772
00:47:47,062 --> 00:47:51,102
Speaker 5: an entire year, and in our work we continue to

773
00:47:51,222 --> 00:47:54,502
Speaker 5: look for good people who care about having the moral

774
00:47:54,622 --> 00:47:57,862
Speaker 5: courage that our countries would do the right thing in

775
00:47:57,902 --> 00:48:01,342
Speaker 5: the world, would care about others, and would have the

776
00:48:01,422 --> 00:48:05,342
Speaker 5: backs of people who are suffering by being kidnapped or

777
00:48:05,382 --> 00:48:10,022
Speaker 5: wrongfully arrested abroad. So we always meet the good people

778
00:48:10,102 --> 00:48:14,822
Speaker 5: Mia and that's the positive part of anything public is

779
00:48:14,982 --> 00:48:16,742
Speaker 5: we can reach the good people also.

780
00:48:17,342 --> 00:48:20,982
Speaker 3: Well, Diane, you are very much the good people, and

781
00:48:21,142 --> 00:48:26,262
Speaker 3: I thank you for your moral courage in talking about

782
00:48:26,342 --> 00:48:28,782
Speaker 3: Jim and continuing to talk about him and fighting for

783
00:48:28,822 --> 00:48:32,662
Speaker 3: the rights of other hostages. You have created such a

784
00:48:32,742 --> 00:48:36,262
Speaker 3: legacy for him and extended the legacy that he created

785
00:48:36,262 --> 00:48:38,822
Speaker 3: for himself. So I just wanted to thank you for that.

786
00:48:38,942 --> 00:48:41,262
Speaker 3: I really have a sense of him, you know, after

787
00:48:41,302 --> 00:48:45,782
Speaker 3: reading your book and talking to you, he would be

788
00:48:45,862 --> 00:48:48,982
Speaker 3: so chuffed. He would just be so chuffed.

789
00:48:49,102 --> 00:48:53,462
Speaker 5: He was an incredible person. But these are the kind

790
00:48:53,502 --> 00:48:56,142
Speaker 5: of people we need. Me We don't remind any of

791
00:48:56,182 --> 00:49:01,022
Speaker 5: your listeners to read American Mother, to watch Jim, the

792
00:49:01,142 --> 00:49:05,902
Speaker 5: James Foley story, and to consider donating to people who

793
00:49:05,942 --> 00:49:07,862
Speaker 5: are trying to make a difference in the world.

794
00:49:08,862 --> 00:49:11,342
Speaker 3: Do you know there's no word in the English language

795
00:49:11,422 --> 00:49:14,982
Speaker 3: for a parent who has lost a child, and there

796
00:49:15,022 --> 00:49:18,462
Speaker 3: should be. I've had the privilege of interviewing several parents

797
00:49:18,462 --> 00:49:21,622
Speaker 3: who've lost children during the years I've done my filter,

798
00:49:22,662 --> 00:49:25,382
Speaker 3: and it never ceases to be shocking. That order of

799
00:49:25,422 --> 00:49:27,942
Speaker 3: things is just not right in the scheme of the

800
00:49:27,982 --> 00:49:31,222
Speaker 3: way the universe is meant to work. It cracks the

801
00:49:31,342 --> 00:49:34,822
Speaker 3: universe a little bit. And for many of the parents

802
00:49:34,862 --> 00:49:38,942
Speaker 3: that I've interviewed, like Diane, the loss of their child

803
00:49:39,102 --> 00:49:42,542
Speaker 3: has opened their heart and put a fire under them

804
00:49:43,062 --> 00:49:45,822
Speaker 3: in a way that you might not actually expect. They

805
00:49:45,862 --> 00:49:51,022
Speaker 3: create foundations and they raise money and awareness, and it's

806
00:49:51,022 --> 00:49:55,062
Speaker 3: almost how they keep their child's memory alive, and it's

807
00:49:55,102 --> 00:49:58,582
Speaker 3: by nurturing a very different kind of relationship with them.

808
00:49:59,262 --> 00:50:03,342
Speaker 3: One memory that Diane will always have are Jim's final

809
00:50:03,382 --> 00:50:07,462
Speaker 3: words to her and the rest of his family. There

810
00:50:07,502 --> 00:50:09,942
Speaker 3: was a hostage who spent a year with Jim who

811
00:50:10,182 --> 00:50:14,222
Speaker 3: was freed, and each time one of the prisoners that

812
00:50:14,342 --> 00:50:17,022
Speaker 3: Jim was held with, they're about eighteen of them. Each

813
00:50:17,142 --> 00:50:19,542
Speaker 3: time one of them was about to be released, some

814
00:50:19,582 --> 00:50:22,262
Speaker 3: of the other prisoners would try to smuggle letters out

815
00:50:22,302 --> 00:50:25,462
Speaker 3: to their family, and Jim had written this letter for

816
00:50:25,542 --> 00:50:27,542
Speaker 3: his family, but the hostage that was about to be

817
00:50:27,582 --> 00:50:31,142
Speaker 3: released suddenly got scared and he said, I can't smuggle

818
00:50:31,142 --> 00:50:33,462
Speaker 3: it out, but what I'll do is I'll memorize it.

819
00:50:33,582 --> 00:50:37,182
Speaker 3: And he did. He memorized this letter, this extraordinary letter

820
00:50:37,262 --> 00:50:40,222
Speaker 3: from James to his family, and when he was released,

821
00:50:40,782 --> 00:50:46,622
Speaker 3: he called them up and he recited it down the phone.

822
00:50:47,422 --> 00:50:52,222
Speaker 7: Dear family and friends, I remember going to the mall

823
00:50:52,302 --> 00:50:56,302
Speaker 7: with Dad, a very long bike ride with Mum. I

824
00:50:56,342 --> 00:51:00,582
Speaker 7: remember so many great family times that take me away

825
00:51:00,622 --> 00:51:04,622
Speaker 7: from this prison. Dreams of family and friends take me

826
00:51:04,662 --> 00:51:09,302
Speaker 7: away and happiness fills my heart. I know you're thinking

827
00:51:09,342 --> 00:51:12,542
Speaker 7: of me and praying for me, and I'm so thankful.

828
00:51:13,302 --> 00:51:17,022
Speaker 7: I feel you all, especially when I pray. I pray

829
00:51:17,062 --> 00:51:22,142
Speaker 7: you stay strong and to believe, I really feel I

830
00:51:22,142 --> 00:51:26,022
Speaker 7: can touch you, even in this darkness when I pray.

831
00:51:27,422 --> 00:51:30,542
Speaker 7: Eighteen of us have been held together in one cell,

832
00:51:31,222 --> 00:51:34,302
Speaker 7: which has helped me. We've had each other to have

833
00:51:34,542 --> 00:51:41,102
Speaker 7: endless long conversations about movies, trivia, sports. We've played games

834
00:51:41,142 --> 00:51:45,542
Speaker 7: made up of scraps found in our cell. We have

835
00:51:45,662 --> 00:51:50,222
Speaker 7: found ways to play checkers, chess, and risk and have

836
00:51:50,382 --> 00:51:55,782
Speaker 7: had tournaments of competition, spending some days preparing strategies for

837
00:51:55,822 --> 00:51:59,982
Speaker 7: the next day's game or lecture. The games and teaching

838
00:52:00,022 --> 00:52:04,142
Speaker 7: each other have helped the time pass. They have been

839
00:52:04,222 --> 00:52:08,182
Speaker 7: a huge help when we repeat stories and laugh to

840
00:52:08,262 --> 00:52:12,942
Speaker 7: break the tension. We've had week days and strong days.

841
00:52:13,542 --> 00:52:16,902
Speaker 7: We are so grateful when anyone is freed, but of

842
00:52:16,982 --> 00:52:21,742
Speaker 7: course yearn for our own freedom. We try to encourage

843
00:52:21,742 --> 00:52:26,742
Speaker 7: each other and share strength. We're being fed better now

844
00:52:26,782 --> 00:52:33,022
Speaker 7: and daily. We have tea occasional coffee. I've regained most

845
00:52:33,062 --> 00:52:36,782
Speaker 7: of my weight lost last year. I think a lot

846
00:52:36,822 --> 00:52:41,262
Speaker 7: about my brothers and my sister. I remember playing Werewolf

847
00:52:41,302 --> 00:52:44,942
Speaker 7: in the Dark with Michael and so many other adventures.

848
00:52:45,702 --> 00:52:48,342
Speaker 7: I think of chasing Maddie and Tea around of the

849
00:52:48,422 --> 00:52:51,742
Speaker 7: kitchen counter. It makes me happy to think of them.

850
00:52:52,182 --> 00:52:54,662
Speaker 7: If there is any money left in my bank account,

851
00:52:54,702 --> 00:52:57,742
Speaker 7: I want it to go to Michael and Matthew. I'm

852
00:52:57,782 --> 00:53:01,502
Speaker 7: so proud of you, Michael, and thankful to you for

853
00:53:01,662 --> 00:53:06,422
Speaker 7: happy childhood memories, and to you Christy for happy adult ones.

854
00:53:07,382 --> 00:53:10,902
Speaker 7: And Big John. How I enjoyed visiting you and Cress

855
00:53:10,982 --> 00:53:14,782
Speaker 7: in Germany. Thank you for welcoming me. I think a

856
00:53:14,822 --> 00:53:17,902
Speaker 7: lot about Rowro and try to imagine what Jack is like.

857
00:53:18,542 --> 00:53:22,742
Speaker 7: I hope he has Roro's personality and mark. So proud

858
00:53:22,782 --> 00:53:24,982
Speaker 7: of you, too, Bro. I think of you on the

859
00:53:25,022 --> 00:53:28,982
Speaker 7: West Coast and hope you are doing some snowboarding and camping.

860
00:53:29,422 --> 00:53:32,382
Speaker 7: I especially remember us going to the comedy club in

861
00:53:32,422 --> 00:53:37,502
Speaker 7: Boston together and to our be cargafter. These special moments

862
00:53:37,582 --> 00:53:42,382
Speaker 7: keep me hopeful. Katie, so very proud of you.

863
00:53:42,382 --> 00:53:43,182
Speaker 3: You are the.

864
00:53:43,222 --> 00:53:45,942
Speaker 7: Strongest and the best of us all. I think of

865
00:53:45,982 --> 00:53:50,142
Speaker 7: you working so hard helping people as a nurse. I'm

866
00:53:50,182 --> 00:53:54,262
Speaker 7: glad we texted just before I was captured. I pray

867
00:53:54,422 --> 00:53:58,982
Speaker 7: I can come to your wedding now I'm sounding like Grammy. Grammy,

868
00:53:59,782 --> 00:54:04,302
Speaker 7: please take your medicine, take walks, and keep dancing. I

869
00:54:04,422 --> 00:54:07,422
Speaker 7: plan to take you out to Margariteas when I get home.

870
00:54:08,182 --> 00:54:11,222
Speaker 7: Stay strong, because I'm going to need your strength to

871
00:54:11,262 --> 00:54:13,262
Speaker 7: help reclaim my life.

872
00:54:13,502 --> 00:54:23,622
Speaker 3: Jim, Oh, that packs a punch. You might want to

873
00:54:23,662 --> 00:54:27,222
Speaker 3: go and watch the documentary Jim The James Foley Story

874
00:54:27,622 --> 00:54:29,142
Speaker 3: if you want to know a little bit more about

875
00:54:29,182 --> 00:54:33,062
Speaker 3: what the type of person James was. He was truly remarkable,

876
00:54:33,222 --> 00:54:37,262
Speaker 3: and that documentary that was made by a childhood friend

877
00:54:37,302 --> 00:54:41,822
Speaker 3: of his and a documentary maker. It really paints a

878
00:54:41,862 --> 00:54:44,782
Speaker 3: picture of the time that Diane didn't know about those

879
00:54:44,902 --> 00:54:47,662
Speaker 3: few years where James was held and she had no

880
00:54:47,742 --> 00:54:50,742
Speaker 3: contact with him. The hostages who were freed, who were

881
00:54:50,862 --> 00:54:53,422
Speaker 3: entued in this documentary say that he kept them alive

882
00:54:53,462 --> 00:54:55,942
Speaker 3: in there, and he shared food when he didn't have to,

883
00:54:56,222 --> 00:54:59,542
Speaker 3: and sometimes he broke up fights between the hostages, and

884
00:54:59,902 --> 00:55:02,702
Speaker 3: he took beatings so that other hostages wouldn't have to.

885
00:55:03,662 --> 00:55:06,422
Speaker 3: They said things like there was not a bad bone

886
00:55:06,422 --> 00:55:08,742
Speaker 3: in his body and that he was just pure good.

887
00:55:10,422 --> 00:55:13,862
Speaker 3: Folly founded the James Foley Legacy Foundation. They do amazing

888
00:55:13,902 --> 00:55:16,782
Speaker 3: work advocating for the freedom of all Americans that are

889
00:55:16,782 --> 00:55:19,902
Speaker 3: held hostage abroad, and it also promotes the safety of

890
00:55:19,982 --> 00:55:23,662
Speaker 3: journalists worldwide who are working in combat ziones. If you

891
00:55:23,702 --> 00:55:26,022
Speaker 3: want to read Diane's book, American Mother, we will pop

892
00:55:26,022 --> 00:55:28,702
Speaker 3: a link to all of those things, including the foundation

893
00:55:29,222 --> 00:55:32,582
Speaker 3: and the documentary in our show notes. This episode was

894
00:55:32,582 --> 00:55:36,142
Speaker 3: produced by Gam Moylen and Kimberly Bradish, with sound production

895
00:55:36,382 --> 00:55:39,902
Speaker 3: by Leah Porges and music by Tom Lyon. I'm Mayor

896
00:55:39,942 --> 00:55:42,582
Speaker 3: Friedman and it's been a little treat to be your

897
00:55:42,622 --> 00:55:59,742
Speaker 3: years