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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast

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Speaker 1: is recorded on.

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Speaker 2: Hi.

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Speaker 1: I'm Claire Murphy. This is Mumma MIA's daily news podcast,

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Speaker 1: The Quickie. Last week, Labour Senator Fahima Payman crossed the

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Speaker 1: floor on the subject of recognizing Palestinian statehood and says

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Speaker 1: she'll do it again if she has to.

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Speaker 3: If the same motion on recognizing the state of Palestine

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Speaker 3: was to be brought forward tomorrow, I would cross the floor.

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Speaker 1: It might seem strange to those of us not into

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Speaker 1: parliamentary process that someone like Senator Payman, who has an

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Speaker 1: opinion on this subject, and who believes she's supporting a

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Speaker 1: move backed by her constituents and the party members, and

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Speaker 1: who decided she didn't want to vote along with her

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Speaker 1: party on the matter, is now facing potentially being expelled

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Speaker 1: over it. Why can't politicians have an opinion that's not

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Speaker 1: the same as everyone else. Before we try and answer

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Speaker 1: that question, let's get the latest from the Quikie newsroom. Tuesday.

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Speaker 1: In July, two Palestinians living in cahn Unice in southern

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Speaker 1: Gaza have received audio messages from Israeli phone numbers, ordering

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Speaker 1: them to leave their homes. An Israeliarmi spokesperson also posted

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Speaker 1: a message on x formerly Twitter telling people in carn

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Speaker 1: units to evacuate immediately to the humanitarian zone, some suggesting

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Speaker 1: this may mean Israeli forces will return to the area

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Speaker 1: that they left just a few weeks ago. Israeli Prime

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Speaker 1: Minister Benjamin nett Yahu, saying they are nearing their goal

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Speaker 1: of taking out the military capabilities of Hamas. Hamasa, in response,

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Speaker 1: has fired twenty rockets into Israel, coming close to several

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Speaker 1: Israeli communities, but they've recorded no casualties. Australians are the

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Speaker 1: fourth longest living humans in the world, but that comes

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Speaker 1: with an increasing health burden. A study by the Australian

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Speaker 1: Institute of Health and Welfare found that whild life expectancy

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Speaker 1: has dropped slightly for both Australian men and women from

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Speaker 1: twenty nineteen to twenty twenty two. We are still zero

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Speaker 1: point three years above pre pandemic levels and in the

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Speaker 1: world behind Japan, Korea and Switzerland. But the report also

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Speaker 1: pointed out that life expectancy is bringing a greater burden

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Speaker 1: of chronic conditions, with three in five Australians living with

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Speaker 1: a long term health issue, many with more than one.

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Speaker 1: The study also found that wildlife expectancy for First Nations

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Speaker 1: people has improved over the past decade, there was no

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Speaker 1: improvement in infant and child rates. Afghanistan's men's cricket team

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Speaker 1: reaching the T twenty World Cup semi finals last week

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Speaker 1: has again placed a spotlight on the ban on women

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Speaker 1: playing sport in the country. Members of the women's team

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Speaker 1: disbanded after the Taliban returned to power three years ago.

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Speaker 1: The formerly contracted players writing to the ICC saying a

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Speaker 1: profound sadness remains that we as women cannot represent our

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Speaker 1: country like the male cricketers. They go on to ask

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Speaker 1: if they can set up as a refuge team based

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Speaker 1: in Australia, saying they aim to represent all Afghan women

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Speaker 1: who dream of playing cricket but are unable to do so.

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Speaker 1: Many of the former players or live in Australia, having

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Speaker 1: fled in the wake of the Taliban takeover. Taylor Swift

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Speaker 1: fans are worried about what actress Julia Roberts was doing

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Speaker 1: with her hands at a recent show in Dublin. The

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Speaker 1: actress was in the vip tent with Swift's boyfriend NFL

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Speaker 1: star Travis Kelcey. A video from the night shows her

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Speaker 1: rubbing his shoulders, tickling his chest, grabbing his arms, and laughing.

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Speaker 1: Some fans responded online wondering why she was being so

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Speaker 1: handsy with Taylor's man, but others have pointed out that

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Speaker 1: she's treating him more like a mother would a son

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Speaker 1: and is clearly gushing over his relationship with her friend Taylor.

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Speaker 1: A lip reader also posting that it looks like she's

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Speaker 1: saying to him that she's so happy for them. That's

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Speaker 1: what's happening around the world today. Next, why can't a

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Speaker 1: labor MP cross the floor without facing dire consequences? We

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Speaker 1: find out what might happen to Senator Payman, who decided

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Speaker 1: Palestinian statehood was too important a matter for her to

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Speaker 1: stick to party lines. Imagine for a moment that you're

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Speaker 1: an MP. You've been voted in by the people, and

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Speaker 1: you're electorate to represent them in Canberra. You belong to

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Speaker 1: a party and that party expects you to vote along

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Speaker 1: with them as a team. But what if the thing

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Speaker 1: you're voting on really goes against your own personal beliefs?

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Speaker 1: The beliefs of those you represent or the party rank

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Speaker 1: and file members. If you decide that stance is more

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Speaker 1: important than the loyalty to following the party line, then

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Speaker 1: you can vote against it. This is what is called

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Speaker 1: crossing the floor, which is what Labor Senator Fatima Payment

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Speaker 1: did last week, a move that was not met with

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Speaker 1: approval from a selection of her colleagues, Senator Payment saying

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Speaker 1: she'd receive the cold shoulder from some of them in

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Speaker 1: the wake of her decision. Head back to the early

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Speaker 1: two thousands, when the Australian Parliamentary Library decided to get

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Speaker 1: out the records to see just how many MPs had

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Speaker 1: stepped out of their party line voting parameters, and they

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Speaker 1: found that between nineteen fifty and two thousand and four,

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Speaker 1: two hundred and forty five MPs had crossed the floor.

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Speaker 1: When you break it down into parties, only twenty eight

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Speaker 1: of those were Labor, who'd voted against their party line

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Speaker 1: on just eighteen occasions, compared to the two hundred and

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Speaker 1: twenty seven Liberal MPs who'd crossed on four hundred and

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Speaker 1: twenty seven occasions, With coalition MPs more likely to cross

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Speaker 1: when their party was in government than in opposition. So

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Speaker 1: why did only such a small number of Labor MPs

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Speaker 1: have a publicly different perspective from their colleagues. Is a

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Speaker 1: party just more aligned with its members' values. Well, that

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Speaker 1: number seems even smaller when you look at individuals who've

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Speaker 1: crossed the floor in that time, like former Tasmanian Liberal

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Speaker 1: MP Read Wright, a twenty eight year Canberra veteran who

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Speaker 1: from his election in nineteen fifty crossed a staggering one

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Speaker 1: hundred and fifty times alone. Or Ian Wood, another Liberal MP,

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Speaker 1: this time from Queensland, who crossed the floor one hundred

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Speaker 1: and thirty times from nineteen fifty to when he retired

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Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy eight. Labor MP has ever even made

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Speaker 1: double figures in floor crossings, even though several Liberal women have,

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Speaker 1: despite the majority of those voting against their own party

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Speaker 1: being men. Queensland Senator Kathy Martin and Tasmanias Shirley Walters

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Speaker 1: crossed twenty and fourteen times, respectively. The record number of

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Speaker 1: floor crossings for a Labor MP is just four. One

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Speaker 1: of those was Labor MP Graham Campbell, the Member for Calgarley.

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Speaker 1: He strongly opposed the Hawk government's goal tax as he

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Speaker 1: was a staunch supporter of the mining industry, so in

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty eight he crossed the floor to vote with

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Speaker 1: the Coalition against it. It needs to be noted that

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Speaker 1: he was also against mass immigration, multiculturalism, environmental extremism, elitism

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Speaker 1: and bureaucratization. He was a critic of the High Court's

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Speaker 1: Marbo decision and opposed sanctions against South Africa during the

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Speaker 1: apartheid years. He lost his alp endorsement and was expelled

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Speaker 1: from the Labour Party in nineteen ninety five. He did

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Speaker 1: continue on as an independent, re elected by his constituents

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Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety six. He's the guy you can hear

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Speaker 1: saying here in the background of Pauline Hansen's maiden speech

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Speaker 1: iron most Australians want our immigration policy radically reviewed and

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Speaker 1: that of multiculturalism abolished. So what does Senator Payment say

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Speaker 1: about her voting against her party on the push to

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Speaker 1: recognized Palestinian statehood? Will she sat down with the ABC's

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Speaker 1: Insiders program on the weekend and explain how she supports

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Speaker 1: the two state system. But you can't do that without

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Speaker 1: recognizing the statehood of one of them, Palestine as well

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Speaker 1: as Israel. She wants peace for both, believing they can

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Speaker 1: live side by side. She says she wants to remain

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Speaker 1: in the Labor Party, but that they have to understand

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Speaker 1: that the party is now more diverse than ever and

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Speaker 1: needs to support that diversity when it comes to ideas

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Speaker 1: and opinions too.

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Speaker 3: I know there are caucus members who have advocated for

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Speaker 3: this matter longer than I've been on this earth for

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Speaker 3: and something as mentioned by the Foreign Minister and my

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Speaker 3: Wway Senate colleague, they've been advocating for the same sex marriage.

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Speaker 2: They had to vote against it because it was the

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Speaker 2: view of caucus.

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Speaker 3: I understand, and their advocacy from within took ten years

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Speaker 3: to legislate the same sex marriage. We're talking about forty

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Speaker 3: thousand Palestinians being massacred here. These Palestinians do not have

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Speaker 3: ten years. And so that's why I will use what

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Speaker 3: is within my power as a backbend senator to continue

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Speaker 3: advocating for a just and lasting solution.

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Speaker 1: In response to her crossing the floor, the Prime Minister

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Speaker 1: suspended her from one caucus meeting, and after that interview

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Speaker 1: she was suspended indefinitely. So what will happen if she

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Speaker 1: crosses the floor again on this matter. Mark Kenny is

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Speaker 1: an Australian studies professor at the Australian National University's College

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Speaker 1: of Arts and Social Sciences. He's also the host of

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Speaker 1: the weekly politics and public affairs podcast Democracy Sausage with

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Speaker 1: Mark Kenny. Mark, is the punishment we've seen handed to

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Speaker 1: senator payment the minimum we would see for a Labor

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Speaker 1: MP who crosses the floor. What else could the PM

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Speaker 1: have done in this instance?

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Speaker 2: Historically it is and there are many sort of interesting

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Speaker 2: dynamics about this, things that make this situation unique. But

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Speaker 2: some people saw the fact that she was suspended from

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Speaker 2: future caucus meetings for just the remainder of this parliamentary term.

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Speaker 2: Initially saw that as being a fairly soft penalty, given

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Speaker 2: that she had at that point across the floor and

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Speaker 2: voted with the Greens. But of course, since she's declared

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Speaker 2: that should a similar motion come before the Parliament again,

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Speaker 2: that she would take the same action again, that has

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Speaker 2: been seen as an actor of wilful defiance by many

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Speaker 2: members of the Labor Caucus, and this whole issue about

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Speaker 2: what the Prime Minister should do in response, what the

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Speaker 2: caucus should do in response then comes into play, and

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Speaker 2: what we've seen now is in a sense a battle

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Speaker 2: of wills, the Prime Minister telling her that she's suspended

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Speaker 2: until such time as she agrees to the thing that

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Speaker 2: she did agree to when she first became a member

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Speaker 2: of Caucus, which is to uphold the decisions of the

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Speaker 2: Caucus and of the government.

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Speaker 1: Do you think one of the interesting factors in all

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Speaker 1: of this is the subject matter, the fact that we're

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Speaker 1: talking about the war in Gaza, We're talking about a

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Speaker 1: Palestinian state and something that has been so divisive in

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Speaker 1: many different aspects of Australian life. Do you think the

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Speaker 1: subject matter itself is one of the interesting points in

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Speaker 1: the middle of this crossing of the floor.

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Speaker 2: I certainly do. I think it is the interesting point,

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Speaker 2: although there are a couple of other things that are

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Speaker 2: also important, particularly the context as well. So there's the

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Speaker 2: specifics of the motion that Green's put up, the decision

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Speaker 2: that the Senator payment took to defire her party, but

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Speaker 2: there's also who she is. As you say, how this

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Speaker 2: war is seen by the Australian community, how it is

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Speaker 2: seen differently by different sections of the Australian community, the

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Speaker 2: Jewish community and the many people who support the Jewish community,

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Speaker 2: and by the Muslim community, and by a vast number

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Speaker 2: of people, particularly on the left of the political spectrum,

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Speaker 2: who have sympathy for the people of Gaza and feel

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Speaker 2: that this cannot be allowed to go on, must be

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Speaker 2: railed against by the Australian government. So, you know, the

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Speaker 2: particularities here are important, and the broader context as well,

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Speaker 2: and the fact that she is a woman, she's wearing

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Speaker 2: a hee j ab, she's a Muslim, she's speaking for

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Speaker 2: her people, her cultural grouping and identification. These are all

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Speaker 2: factors as well, and it's a very complex situation and

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Speaker 2: you can sort of see both sides of this.

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Speaker 1: I know there's not a lot of history to base

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Speaker 1: the answer to this next question on, but what would

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Speaker 1: have happened. Do you think if the Prime Minister at

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Speaker 1: this point would have let that crossing of the floor slide.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think he was letting it slide effectively and

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Speaker 2: that had raised some eyebrows in the caucus. It's an

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Speaker 2: interesting psychology this if we think back to the lockdowns

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Speaker 2: through the pandemic, those people who broke the lockdown rules,

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Speaker 2: whether they were anti vaxxers, you know, attending rallies in

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Speaker 2: Melbourne and carrying around sort of gallows or whatever they

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Speaker 2: were doing. One of the things that I think was

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Speaker 2: of great grievance to people back then was that everyone

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Speaker 2: abiding by the rules, except some people think they don't

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Speaker 2: have to right so, and I think there's a very

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Speaker 2: similar sentiment about that in the caucus, even among some

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Speaker 2: people who broadly agree with Senator Payman's position but feel like, look,

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Speaker 2: this is the way the Labor Party operates. We have

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Speaker 2: a solidarity principle, it's the way we've always operated, and

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Speaker 2: you just don't get the right to freelance in this way.

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Speaker 2: You have to fight your fight in another way and

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Speaker 2: try and bring the caucus around to your position. And

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Speaker 2: so I think that's the kind of reality that we're

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Speaker 2: dealing with inside the Labor Party. In really Uneasy had

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Speaker 2: taken all that into account and had, as a result

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Speaker 2: of the sensitivities here and the implications electorally for the

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Speaker 2: Labor Party, had decided that what was effectively a two

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Speaker 2: meetings suspension on senator payment was an acceptable position. But then,

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Speaker 2: of course she went and did that interview and declared

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Speaker 2: that she would do it again, And so it becomes

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Speaker 2: a question of doubling down and of her intent in

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Speaker 2: the future, and I think that appears to enforce the

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Speaker 2: Prime Minister's hand here.

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Speaker 1: Does this point out the lack of diversity of opinion

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Speaker 1: that's allowed within the Labor Party. As Senator Payment pointed

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Speaker 1: out in an interview, She said that the party is

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Speaker 1: more diverse than it's ever been. There are more diverse viewpoints.

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Speaker 1: Should this be a moment for Labor to rethink their

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Speaker 1: policy against their members crossing the floor?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think it's a very valid question to ask,

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Speaker 2: because diversity has to mean more than simply an interesting

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Speaker 2: brochure that you can put out with a colorful picture

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Speaker 2: on it of people from a lot of different identity groups.

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Speaker 2: It's not just a pr exercise. Representation means a lot

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Speaker 2: more than that, And I think this is where the

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Speaker 2: Labor Party's considerable progress in diversity comes up against the

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Speaker 2: reality of a sort of a long established solidarity rule

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Speaker 2: that was easier to apply back in the days when

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Speaker 2: basically all of your members were Anglo Celtic white men

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Speaker 2: and broadly speaking, we're identified by class. We now have

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Speaker 2: a much more complicated society, much more richer and diverse

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Speaker 2: society where identities sexual, cultural, racial and others. You know,

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Speaker 2: political and economic are all mixed in together, and for

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Speaker 2: the Labor Party to have that colleidoscope of representations is

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Speaker 2: a very strong asset. But to then take someone like

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Speaker 2: Senator Payment and say you can't on this matter of

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Speaker 2: profound centrality to your identity, you can't freelance. I can

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Speaker 2: understand why she finds that extremely hard to deal with,

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Speaker 2: just as I can understand why the Labor Party would say, well,

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Speaker 2: historically we arose from the union movement and we've been

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Speaker 2: about the collectivisation of members so that we can operate

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Speaker 2: with maximum leverage. Then you know, the short answer after

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Speaker 2: all of that is, I think Labor does need to

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Speaker 2: look at whether this is going to be viable going forward. Imagine,

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Speaker 2: for example, if this is a question in relation to

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Speaker 2: the treatment of women and a number of women said,

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Speaker 2: look we're not happy with the pace with which the

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Speaker 2: government is moving on domestic violence, I think it would

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Speaker 2: be very difficult for Labor to be expelling people on

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Speaker 2: that basis. You know, what would that do? I mean,

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Speaker 2: women make up half of Australia.

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Speaker 1: Is expulsion a certainty for Senator Payment? You think if

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Speaker 1: she does cross the floor again. If the Greens do

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Speaker 1: bring this up.

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Speaker 2: Again, I don't know whether you could say it's a certainty.

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Speaker 2: I would say it's pretty close to it, though now

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Speaker 2: whether that's the way this will transpire is another matter.

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Speaker 2: I think it would be regrettable from her point of view,

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Speaker 2: and you know, in terms of her future contribution as

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Speaker 2: a senator, because I think she would then be marginalized

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Speaker 2: and this would be her single term in Federal Parliament

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Speaker 2: unless she came back at another time. I think it

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Speaker 2: would be unlikely that she got re elected, so it

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Speaker 2: would be a shame to see her go. I was

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Speaker 2: very impressed, as I said on Insiders, with the way

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Speaker 2: she explained herself and conducted herself. This is why I'm

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Speaker 2: critical of where that got to at the moment. It's

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Speaker 2: like a battle of wills and I can't really see

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Speaker 2: a way that she can back out of her position

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Speaker 2: without essentially surrendering. And I can't see the Prime Minister

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Speaker 2: doing that given the way he would be attacked for

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Speaker 2: being weak on this matter. So you'd have to say

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Speaker 2: things are moving towards that kind of separation, and that's

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Speaker 2: a sort of a sad outcome. I think.

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Speaker 1: If the Greens again move for Australian Parliament to recognize

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Speaker 1: a Palestinian state. We know that Senator Payment will cross

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Speaker 1: the floor to vote I alongside them, and despite the

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Speaker 1: harshness of it, she is well aware of the consequences.

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Speaker 3: When I made the decision on the Senate floor to cross,

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Speaker 3: I did it with the understanding that this could lead

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Speaker 3: to expulsion and costing my labor membership.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for tuning in today.

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Speaker 2: Friends.

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