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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mea podcast. Mumma Mea acknowledges

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Speaker 1: the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast

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Speaker 1: is recorded on.

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Speaker 2: Hey, I'm Taylor Strano. This is Muma MEA's daily news

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Speaker 2: podcast for Quickie, and I'm hopping into your podcast feed

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Speaker 2: today because well, there's been another debate in US politics.

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Speaker 2: This time it's the vice presidential candidates that have taken

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Speaker 2: to the podium Republican nominee jd Vance and Tim Walls

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Speaker 2: from the Democratic Party. As usual, we're joined by the

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Speaker 2: deputy editor of Foreign Policy magazine and Mamma me Is

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Speaker 2: US election correspondent Amelia Lester to walk you through what

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Speaker 2: we've just witnessed. But before we do that, here's t

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Speaker 2: Elizabezazz with your evening headlines for Wednesday, October two.

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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Tilizabezazz from Momma me Is daily news podcast

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Speaker 1: The Quickie with your headlines for Wednesday. More than one

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Speaker 1: hundred commercial airline seats have been secured for Australians trying

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Speaker 1: to leave Lebanon as dire warnings continue for people to

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Speaker 1: evacuate amid an escalation of conflict in the region. Flights

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Speaker 1: across Monday and Tuesday carried dozens of Australians home, while

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Speaker 1: another scheduled flight for Thursday will add to the tally.

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Speaker 1: It comes as Australians in Lebanon urged to take any

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Speaker 1: available option to get out of the country as the

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Speaker 1: security situation deteriorates following an increase in missile strikes across

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Speaker 1: both Lebanon and Israel. Meantime, Australian Prime Minister Anthony Alberizi

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Speaker 1: has condemned Iran's decision to launch a wave of missiles

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Speaker 1: at Israel, reiterating his calls for a cease fire. Iran

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Speaker 1: followed around two hundred missiles at Israel in response to

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Speaker 1: the killings of senior leaders of Hermas, Hezbollah and the

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Speaker 1: Iran's Revolutionary Guard. The missiles were mostly intercepted, with no

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Speaker 1: serious injuries recorded. US President Joe Biden has expressed the

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Speaker 1: full support of the US for Israel and described Iran's

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Speaker 1: attack as ineffective. Israel's Benjamin Netanyaho says Iran will pay

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Speaker 1: for the missile strike. It comes as Israel continues its

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Speaker 1: bombardment of southern Lebanon, reportedly targeting a stronghold of the

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Speaker 1: Iran backed Hezbola group. According to Lebanon's Health Ministry, Israeli

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Speaker 1: strikes across the country have killed more than one thousand

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Speaker 1: people in less than two weeks and forced many to

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Speaker 1: flee their homes. Search and rescue teams continue to look

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Speaker 1: for survivors across the US following Hurricane Helene. The storm

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Speaker 1: has killed at least one hundred and sixty two people

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Speaker 1: in North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Florida, Tennessee, and Virginia,

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Speaker 1: and the death toll is expected to rise once rescue

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Speaker 1: teams reach isolated towns and telecommunications are restored. Staying in

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Speaker 1: the US, Democrat Tim Waltz and Republican JD. Evans have

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Speaker 1: clashed over a number of issues in the US vice

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Speaker 1: presidential debate today. Issues included the Middle East crisis, immigration, taxes,

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Speaker 1: climate change, and energy back home. The nation's Children's Commissioner

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Speaker 1: is calling for Australia to abandon its tough approach to

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Speaker 1: managing youth crime and start looking at evidence based solutions

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Speaker 1: to end the disadvantage afflicting young people. In an address

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Speaker 1: to the National Press Club in Canberra today, Anne Hollins

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Speaker 1: made the case for earlier intervention to help save children

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Speaker 1: from disadvantage, to spare and desperation. Commissioner Hollands said youth

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Speaker 1: detention centers are the places where the most egregious breaches

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Speaker 1: of human rights of children are happening, saying Australia cannot

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Speaker 1: continue with business as usual and should ditch its foiled

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Speaker 1: approach of longer sentencing, more policing and more children's prisons. Instead,

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Speaker 1: she called for improvements in child wellbeing and finally, the

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Speaker 1: Queed of Pop is back. Madonna has revealed she's back

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Speaker 1: in the studio working on a new album. She's teaming

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Speaker 1: up with producer Stuart Price, who is behind her acclaimed

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Speaker 1: two thousand and five record Confessions on a Day Ans Floor,

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Speaker 1: as well as her recent celebration Too.

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Speaker 2: Thanks to Lissa up Next. Just weeks on from the

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Speaker 2: presidential debate between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump, what are

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Speaker 2: the big takeaways from today's vice presidential debate.

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Speaker 3: Center Vance has said that there's a climate problem in

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Speaker 3: the past, Donald Trump called it a hoax and then

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Speaker 3: joked that these things would make more Beachmont property to

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Speaker 3: be able to invest in.

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Speaker 4: We have a historic immigration crisis because Kamala Harris started

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Speaker 4: and said that she wanted to undo all of Donald

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Speaker 4: Trump's border policies.

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Speaker 3: This is what happens when you don't want to solve

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Speaker 3: you demonize it.

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Speaker 2: Amelia, thanks for joining us. What is your first take

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Speaker 2: on this debate immediately after it finished? Is there anything

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Speaker 2: that majorly stood out that was covered?

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Speaker 5: It was a really normal debate, or at least it

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Speaker 5: seemed normal. Both candidates came across as reasonable. They even

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Speaker 5: agreed on a number of things. There was a lot

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Speaker 5: of substantive policy discussion, which is not something we've seen

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Speaker 5: in any of the debates featuring Donald Trump. And I

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Speaker 5: think the one word that a lot of people will

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Speaker 5: be using to sum it up was boring.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I think boring is the correct word. I wrote down.

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Speaker 2: It was weirdly respectful, and a lot of referring to

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Speaker 2: the other candidates, Well, I agree with you on this policy,

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Speaker 2: which is that common that feels quite out of the box.

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Speaker 5: I think they were really trying on that front. So yes,

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Speaker 5: for instance, at one point they mentioned that they agreed

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Speaker 5: on tariffs, which I'm glad that. You know, with the

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Speaker 5: polarized political environment, there's one thing that both sides can

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Speaker 5: agree on.

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Speaker 6: And it's tariffs.

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Speaker 5: But then what's interesting is that by the end that

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Speaker 5: attempt at conciliation and agreeing on everything kind of fell

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Speaker 5: apart when we talked about jan six, and Tim Walls

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Speaker 5: came into his own there and made the point that

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Speaker 5: in fact, there's a really clear choice between the candidates

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Speaker 5: on that issue. So while the debate started off all

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Speaker 5: about trying to find common ground, by the end we

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Speaker 5: diverged again.

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Speaker 2: I want to talk more about Jen six in a moment,

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Speaker 2: but firstly, I've been reading a lot about the candidates

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Speaker 2: that are JD. Vans and Tim Walls, and a lot

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Speaker 2: of people have said that there's this idea that they've

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Speaker 2: both been chosen to appear to Middle America. They both

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Speaker 2: have this sort of Midwest dad RIZ, not them.

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Speaker 6: Does that feel correct?

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Speaker 5: That's completely correct. They are both from the Midwest, they

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Speaker 5: are both dads. They both have their own particular brand

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Speaker 5: of RIZ, very different RIZ, but both of them have

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Speaker 5: it in different ways. Both were at pains. They were

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Speaker 5: asked at the top of the debate about the unfolding

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Speaker 5: events in the Middle East that have been happening, and

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Speaker 5: it's interesting that both of them pivoted to instead talking

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Speaker 5: about themselves and their backgrounds.

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Speaker 6: So Vance talked.

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Speaker 5: About how he grew up working class in a community

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Speaker 5: where there had been a lot of opioid addiction, and

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Speaker 5: Waltz talked about growing up middle class and having working

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Speaker 5: parents and being a teacher himself. So they were certainly

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Speaker 5: trying to burnish those Midwestern working people credentials.

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Speaker 2: What does that do to a potential voter or maybe

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Speaker 2: someone who's on the fence and isn't quite sure where

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Speaker 2: they're going to cast their vote. What does it do

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Speaker 2: when a candidate really inserts themselves into pretty much every

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Speaker 2: single topic that was covered, at least one of them

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Speaker 2: brought some sort of personal story or was able to

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Speaker 2: insert themselves in it somewhere.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, that's a really good point actually.

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Speaker 5: Like, for instance, at one point when they were talking

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Speaker 5: about guns, Tim Waltz mentioned his son and he said

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Speaker 5: that his son had seen some gun violence at his school.

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Speaker 5: It was actually the first of two references to his son.

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Speaker 5: The second reference was talking about that his son was

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Speaker 5: at the Minnesota State House on John six, So that

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Speaker 5: was an interesting choice to mention his son those two times.

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Speaker 5: Vance at one point said that he hoped that his

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Speaker 5: three children were in bed, so there was sort of

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Speaker 5: a discussion also of them both as parents but also

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Speaker 5: as having parents, and I think that's always a sort

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Speaker 5: of shorthand for politicians to establish themselves as humans. So

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Speaker 5: Vance talked a lot about his mother, an interesting choice

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Speaker 5: because I think he's not palling very well with women,

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Speaker 5: and so I think he really wanted to emphasize that

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Speaker 5: he was close with his mother or had a close

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Speaker 5: relationship with her. I think people have felt like the

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Speaker 5: attacks on Vance and Trump as not normal.

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Speaker 6: Or as weird have really hit them hard.

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Speaker 5: So I think Vance's job coming into this was to

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Speaker 5: his normalcy, whilst we know is normal. But can he

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Speaker 5: step into this much sort of more exalted political role

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Speaker 5: than what he's been in in the past, And I

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Speaker 5: think that the jury's out on that. He seemed very

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Speaker 5: unclear and a little bit alarmed to be asked about

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Speaker 5: the Middle East situation, which no shade. I think that's

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Speaker 5: a very complicated situation and no one's succeeded in solving

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Speaker 5: it yet.

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Speaker 6: But he looked really scared about that.

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Speaker 2: Okay, A couple of the topics that I definitely want

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Speaker 2: to touch on with you, reproductive rights. That's something that's

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Speaker 2: been at the forefront of this election campaign and cycle.

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Speaker 2: Something that was really interesting to me in this debate

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Speaker 2: is that there was no presence of a woman, but

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Speaker 2: a lot of women's stories and names were told and

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Speaker 2: thrown around. How do you feel about seeing two men

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Speaker 2: from Middle America on quite different sides of this line

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Speaker 2: talking about reproductive rights.

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Speaker 5: I think it's a real moment where when you're in America,

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Speaker 5: it seems to make perfect sense, and then you leave

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Speaker 5: America and you realize it's actually really weird that these

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Speaker 5: two men who were not doctors are talking about women's

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Speaker 5: healthcare in such oftentimes gory detail.

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Speaker 4: But as I read the Minnesota law that you signed

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Speaker 4: into law, it says that a doctor who presides over

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Speaker 4: an abortion where the baby survives, the doctor is under

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Speaker 4: no obligation to provide life saving care to a baby

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Speaker 4: who survives a botched late term abortion.

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Speaker 3: That is I think, whether pro choice or prolatter, shows that.

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Speaker 4: Is fundamentally barbaric.

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Speaker 3: These are women's decisions to make about their health care decisions,

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Speaker 3: and the physicians who know best when they need to

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Speaker 3: do this. Trying to distort the way a law is

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Speaker 3: written to try and make a point. That's not it

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Speaker 3: at all.

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Speaker 4: Was I wrong about the governor.

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Speaker 5: I mean, the way that the abortion debate proceeds in

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Speaker 5: America is that politicians always feel they have to reach

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Speaker 5: for the extreme stories and the cases. And that's as

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Speaker 5: true of the Democrats as it is for the Republicans,

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Speaker 5: if not true, because the Democrats have to kind of

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Speaker 5: justify why they're in favor of abortions. So they talk

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Speaker 5: about incest survivors, they talk about rape victims, they talk

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Speaker 5: about children and the fact that children need access to abortion.

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Speaker 5: And I do get frustrated about it, speaking as a woman,

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Speaker 5: because I wish that we could have a more nuanced

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Speaker 5: debate which doesn't rely on this trope of a good

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Speaker 5: abortion and a bad abortion. But that is so entrenched

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Speaker 5: in American politics it's not likely to go anywhere anytime soon.

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Speaker 5: It was interesting, though, Wells, I think try to sort

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Speaker 5: of elevate the debate a little bit beyond that by

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Speaker 5: talking about the fact that he is pro women. That's

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Speaker 5: an interesting line because I think it opens up more

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Speaker 5: possibilities beyond just the extreme cases.

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Speaker 2: I like that idea as well, of it's not about

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Speaker 2: the extremes, and the separation is where pro women wear

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Speaker 2: pro choice in a.

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Speaker 6: Lot of ways.

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Speaker 2: On the flip side, though, Vance did this really interesting

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Speaker 2: thing where he kept coming back to pro family, pro baby,

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Speaker 2: and really just instilling that almost traditional family idea is

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Speaker 2: what everybody in the US wants.

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Speaker 5: The pro baby line really stopped me too. I don't

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Speaker 5: think I've ever heard anyone say they're pro baby before,

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Speaker 5: because I don't think anyone's anti baby really cute. So yeah,

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Speaker 5: that was unusual, and I was surprised that Walds didn't

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Speaker 5: take up the opportunity there to talk about Vance's childless

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Speaker 5: cat lady remark. But the reason why Vance was talking

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Speaker 5: about families so much and how his pro baby is

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Speaker 5: because his ideology is steeped in this national conservatism, which

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Speaker 5: says that it's really important for a native people of

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Speaker 5: a country to reproduce, and so there's some kind of

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Speaker 5: scary ideology behind his claim to be pro baby.

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Speaker 2: The other thing that's come up in this debate and

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Speaker 2: is always on the table for discussion when it comes

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Speaker 2: to US politics is the idea of gun control and

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Speaker 2: gun violence. The question that was raised by the moderators

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Speaker 2: was is it the parents that need to be more

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Speaker 2: responsible to curb mass shootings in schools.

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Speaker 6: Before we talk about that.

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Speaker 2: I just found it very interesting that here in Australia,

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Speaker 2: the parallel that we have going on at the moment,

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Speaker 2: the conversation we're having is parents need to be more

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Speaker 2: involved in keeping their kids safe online, and it is

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Speaker 2: just almost a complete idea of what they're having to

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Speaker 2: debate versus what we're actually looking at policy wise here.

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Speaker 6: That's a really striking parallel.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we've had that conversation on the Quickie even just

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Speaker 2: a few weeks back on Pop a link to that

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Speaker 2: episode in the show notes. But when we talk about

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Speaker 2: gun violence, what really struck me is just how on

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Speaker 2: different sides these two candidates were this.

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Speaker 3: Idea of stigmatizing mental health. Just because you have a

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Speaker 3: mental health issue doesn't mean you're violent. And I think

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Speaker 3: what we end up doing is we start looking for

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Speaker 3: escapebold Sometimes it just is the guns. It's just the guns.

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Speaker 4: We have to make the doors lock better, we have

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Speaker 4: to make the doors stronger, we've got to make the

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Speaker 4: windows stronger, and of course we've got to increase school

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Speaker 4: resource officers.

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Speaker 2: That saying that we need to make the doors lock better,

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Speaker 2: it's a responsibility not necessarily the parents.

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Speaker 5: He didn't really talk a lot Smiths. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 5: we have to make the doors stronger. Was a real

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Speaker 5: eye opening moment for me, as usual, reaching for anything

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Speaker 5: to talk about other than guns. But I think again

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Speaker 5: Weld's cut through a little bit here because he's trying

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Speaker 5: to thread a bit of needle. He talked about being

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Speaker 5: a hunter and owning guns himself. Harris has obviously talked

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Speaker 5: recently to Oprah and others about how she would shoot

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Speaker 5: someone who came into her house and how she also

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Speaker 5: owns a gun. So the Democrats now are very consciously

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Speaker 5: trying to present themselves as not anti gun but pro

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Speaker 5: regulation of guns. And it's almost like a concession to

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Speaker 5: the right a little bit. Whether that concession pays off

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Speaker 5: for them or whether they're in fact seeding ground that

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Speaker 5: they needed to keep.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we even saw Tim Woles mention that that he

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Speaker 2: was part of the NRA at one point, which I

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Speaker 2: don't know about Tim Wolls. I think as well, something

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Speaker 2: that they lacked in the reproductive rights conversation is that

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Speaker 2: nuance only talking about those extreme cases. Tim Wolves did

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Speaker 2: a really interesting thing when talking about gun violence though,

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Speaker 2: when he brought up the mental health factor, and how

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Speaker 2: sometimes that's the easy finger to point in the blame

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Speaker 2: game of why people use guns in these sort of

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Speaker 2: mass shooting scenarios. What do you think that does for

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Speaker 2: people sitting at home who maybe are again a bit

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Speaker 2: out a loss of how to comprehend gun violence.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: I really appreciated that moment, because I've certainly had fights

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Speaker 5: with my fellow Americans over the years about the idea

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Speaker 5: that the gun violence epidemic is somehow connected to mental health.

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Speaker 5: It just strikes me as very simplistic, and I'm sure

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Speaker 5: it strikes many people at home that way too. And

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Speaker 5: he pushed back on that, and he said, look, the

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Speaker 5: vast majority of people who are struggling with their mental

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Speaker 5: health are not violent. Then they're not shooting people up

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Speaker 5: in schools, and we need to stop stigmatizing them in

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Speaker 5: that way. And I think that was a very generous

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Speaker 5: and heartfelt moment. And I think again, mentioning that his

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Speaker 5: son was at school during a gun incident, he's also

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Speaker 5: come out as saying that his son is neurodivergent, and

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Speaker 5: so he's clearly someone who's comfortable talking about mental health

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Speaker 5: in these kinds of nuanced ways and I think probably

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Speaker 5: a lot of people would have appreciated.

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Speaker 2: That one moment in this debate where the will started

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Speaker 2: to fall off, maybe for both candidates is the topic

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Speaker 2: of January sixth. The threat to democracy is something that

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Speaker 2: I have heard so many times in this election cycle,

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Speaker 2: whether it be Trump usually saying the Demo are a

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Speaker 2: threat to democracy. Almost felt like the script kind of

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Speaker 2: flipped though on JD. Vance in this particular case when

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Speaker 2: they asked him what would happen if they don't win

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Speaker 2: this election?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, the threat to democracy. Just to pause on that.

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Speaker 5: I've been fascinated with how that rhetoric has evolved in

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Speaker 5: this cycle, because back in twenty sixteen and then again

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Speaker 5: in twenty twenty, the Democrats really talked about the Republicans

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Speaker 5: as being a clear and present threat to democracy.

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Speaker 6: Elon mask this.

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Speaker 5: Week, xt is that the word that we use? He

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Speaker 5: xed that in fact, if Donald Trump lost the election,

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Speaker 5: democracy would be threatened. It was unclear whether that was

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Speaker 5: a threat or a prediction, but it did mark an

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Speaker 5: interesting moment where the riot has now taken on that language.

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Speaker 5: Back to the debate, I think Vance just completely sidestep

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Speaker 5: the questions here. A big headline for me from the

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Speaker 5: debate is through all the seeming normalcy in boringness, we

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Speaker 5: need to keep in mind that he did not say

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Speaker 5: that he would honor the results of the election, and

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Speaker 5: that's not normal at all. Instead, he dodged the qo

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Speaker 5: I talking about Facebook ads censorship, and he tried to

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Speaker 5: make out that this was a both sides problem, that

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Speaker 5: democrats needed to respect democracy too. But then Wals he

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Speaker 5: sort of inhabited his school teacher mode really effectively.

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Speaker 3: There.

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Speaker 5: He spoke very clearly about the importance of following rules.

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Speaker 5: He said, it was a really clear choice. The winner

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Speaker 5: needs to be the winner. This has got to stop.

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Speaker 5: And then he said a president's words matter. And if

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Speaker 5: anyone was still watching at that point, which it's doubtful

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Speaker 5: it was late on a Tuesday night, I think that

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Speaker 5: the impression you'd be left with is that he kind

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Speaker 5: of ended the debate on the strongest note.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he kind of said at the end of the day,

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Speaker 2: we will shake hands when the election is.

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Speaker 6: Over, Yes, and Van said that he would too.

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Speaker 5: But whether or not he shakes hands and then does

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Speaker 5: not honor the election results remains to be seen. It's

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Speaker 5: interesting that the only time I think I saw Wall

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Speaker 5: smile throughout the entire debate. Was at that very end

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Speaker 5: when he said that Kamala Harris has formed a very

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Speaker 5: unlikely coalition from Bernie Sanders to Dick Cheney to Taylor Swift,

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Speaker 5: which I thought was a nice line. Clearly a very

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Speaker 5: rehearse line, but one that I think was quite effective.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, his closing argument was not dissimilar to that of

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Speaker 2: Kamala Harris's during her debate a few weeks back against

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Speaker 2: President Donald Trump. He talked about this politics of joy

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Speaker 2: and centering You the voter listening and watching on from home.

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Speaker 2: What do you think of Vance's closing argument, because it

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Speaker 2: was not dissimilar to Trump's either. It kind of didn't

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Speaker 2: center on their policy, but more on their opponent.

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Speaker 5: What was his closing argument? It's interesting that I can't

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Speaker 5: of even really remember it. Look, I think what Vance

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Speaker 5: had to do here was not lose the debate, because remember,

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Speaker 5: it's a turnout game, and the more that people feel

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Speaker 5: that democracy is on the ballot and that their voting

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Speaker 5: rights are threatened, they will show up on election day.

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Speaker 6: But if they watch this debate.

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Speaker 5: And think that seemed very boring and normal, they're not

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Speaker 5: going to bother to take time off work to vote

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Speaker 5: in the elections. So the fact that Vance didn't lose

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Speaker 5: the debate and that the debates seem normal and boring,

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Speaker 5: I think is a big win for Donald Trump.

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Speaker 2: If you want more conversations about the debate, make sure

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Speaker 2: you keep an ear out for our friends over at

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Speaker 2: Mamma MEA Out Loud. We'll link to them in our

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Speaker 2: show notes. Thanks as well to Amelia, who's been keeping

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Speaker 2: us across all the developments in this US presidential race.

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Speaker 2: You can find links to her articles and previous conversations

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Speaker 2: here in the show notes too. On tomorrow's episode of

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Speaker 2: The Quikie, we're turning our attention to the proposed new

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Speaker 2: laws set to drastically change the way women would access

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Speaker 2: abortion in parts of Australia. The Quikie is produced by

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Speaker 2: me Taylor Strano, with reporting by me Elisabizazz and audio

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Speaker 2: production by Tom Lyon.