WEBVTT - The 'Understanding Depression' Episode Everyone Should Listen To 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:04.480 They can understand themselves better, be more self compassionate, understand 0:00:04.559 --> 0:00:10.360 the world differently. I really think you cannot just get better, 0:00:10.440 --> 0:00:11.840 but you can get like better better. 0:00:12.440 --> 0:00:15.280 Welcome to you, But are you happy? I'm a shiny Dante. 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:19.120 Previously on this podcast, we've done a series of mythbusting 0:00:19.160 --> 0:00:25.400 episodes around ADHD, OCD, and BPD. Today we're turning to 0:00:25.440 --> 0:00:29.880 depression because there are still a lot of misconceptions about it, 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:33.640 that it's something you can just snap out of, that 0:00:33.800 --> 0:00:37.520 it's simply extreme sadness, or that it reflects some kind 0:00:37.560 --> 0:00:41.959 of personal weakness. But depression is far more complex than that. 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:46.680 Joining us today is Julie Chapman, a registered psychologist with 0:00:46.800 --> 0:00:51.639 over fifteen years of experience in trauma informed care, addiction, 0:00:52.159 --> 0:00:56.680 and complex mental health, including depression. She is here to 0:00:56.760 --> 0:01:00.720 unpack what depression actually is, how it shows up beyond 0:01:00.840 --> 0:01:03.960 just sadness, the myths that still shape how we think 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:07.920 about it, and what recovery can really look like in practice, 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:17.760 not just in theory. Here's our conversation. Hello, Julie, Welcome 0:01:17.800 --> 0:01:21.319 to But are you happy? I am actually really excited 0:01:21.360 --> 0:01:24.240 to talk about this topic depression, which sounds a bit 0:01:24.280 --> 0:01:27.280 of an oxymoron in itself because there is a lot 0:01:27.319 --> 0:01:31.600 to it. But yes, vastally just want to say thank 0:01:31.640 --> 0:01:33.880 you for joining us my pleasure. 0:01:34.040 --> 0:01:38.080 I love talking about all things mental health, even topics 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:40.720 like depression. I think there's so much in it that's 0:01:40.760 --> 0:01:43.280 really interesting, and so I hope people really like learning 0:01:43.319 --> 0:01:44.199 more about it today. 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:47.480 Yes, yes, I know we will. And it's interesting too 0:01:47.520 --> 0:01:49.880 because when I hear the word depression, right, it gets 0:01:49.920 --> 0:01:52.560 thrown around a lot casually in conversation. We can just 0:01:52.600 --> 0:01:55.960 be like with our girlfriends, I'm depressed, but no, you're 0:01:55.960 --> 0:01:58.520 actually just sad, and it gets me thinking about what 0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:00.560 actually is depression. 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:04.240 It's something, it's funny. I agreed to do this and 0:02:04.240 --> 0:02:05.920 I was like, yeah, I'll talk about depression, and then 0:02:05.960 --> 0:02:08.560 I was like what is depression? I went, oh, yeah, okay, 0:02:08.680 --> 0:02:12.600 let's go back to basics. What is it? It absolutely 0:02:13.200 --> 0:02:16.680 can be thrown around a lot. Sadness is a normal 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:20.079 human emotion. It's actually pretty good for us. We need 0:02:20.120 --> 0:02:24.679 it as well. I think the difference for me between 0:02:26.480 --> 0:02:31.959 normal sadness and really entering a depressive episode is when 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:36.680 it starts to spread, colonize and become this sort of 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:41.400 self perpetuating darkness in somebody's life. That's not a clinical 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:45.000 definition of depression, but that's I think an easier way 0:02:45.000 --> 0:02:50.120 for people to understand it. There are definitely diagnostic and 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:53.320 statistic criteria out there that pretty much anyone can go 0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:56.720 out and google themselves and I'll give a list of criteria. 0:02:56.760 --> 0:02:59.960 You know, it has loss of interest in your activity, 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:02.799 these you could, but it has weird things in there, 0:03:02.880 --> 0:03:05.800 like you might sleep too much or not enough. You 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:08.840 might put on lots of weight or lose lots of weight. 0:03:09.480 --> 0:03:13.079 So it's sometimes tricky. People are going through and thinking 0:03:13.120 --> 0:03:16.880 do I meet this? Is this me? I think it's 0:03:17.080 --> 0:03:19.800 probably more useful to think of it in the first 0:03:19.840 --> 0:03:23.840 way I described it. It's when it really like settles 0:03:23.880 --> 0:03:27.919 in and it starts to then create more depression for you. 0:03:28.040 --> 0:03:31.480 So you've become really negative in your thinking, and then 0:03:31.520 --> 0:03:33.720 that negative thinking starts to really spiral. 0:03:34.120 --> 0:03:37.480 Yeah yeah, so yeah, And it was really interesting when 0:03:37.480 --> 0:03:40.680 you said self perpetuating darkness because I mean, just those 0:03:40.720 --> 0:03:43.960 words itselfs is a lot like what does that actually 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:47.760 look like? Then for someone who might be like, oh 0:03:47.840 --> 0:03:48.520 am I depressed? 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:49.480 Am I just sad? 0:03:49.640 --> 0:03:52.920 Because it sounds like it's quite deep, like, is it 0:03:53.000 --> 0:03:55.400 kind of it's showing up in so many different areas 0:03:55.440 --> 0:03:58.040 of your life, or it's impacting kind of like your 0:03:58.120 --> 0:03:59.040 quality of life. 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:01.440 I think the thing is that's really hard about thinking 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:04.240 about what it might look like in someone's life is 0:04:06.280 --> 0:04:10.200 because everybody experiences depressions so differently, it's going to look 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:14.160 so different depending on who is experiencing it. Right, So 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:17.120 there are lots of things like you could look at, 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:22.280 you know, low mood, losing interesting things, sleeping, fatigue, difficulty concentrating. 0:04:23.320 --> 0:04:25.640 But I'm not really sure if that always helps people 0:04:25.720 --> 0:04:30.320 to kind of think, oh, yeah, I'm depressed. Perhaps it's 0:04:30.320 --> 0:04:35.240 more useful to think of it like it's going to 0:04:35.320 --> 0:04:38.200 look really really different depending on who's experiencing it. For 0:04:38.279 --> 0:04:41.560 some people, know one on the surface would ever know, 0:04:42.640 --> 0:04:45.000 you know, like, or it might just be someone really 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:49.479 really close to them might start to see some of 0:04:49.520 --> 0:04:55.159 the cracks. You could be looking at anything from intense irritability, 0:04:57.040 --> 0:05:01.279 difficulty keeping up with a job, not enjoying things that 0:05:01.440 --> 0:05:03.640 used to give them lots of joy. I wonder if 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:06.960 it's probably too early to bring it up. But I 0:05:07.040 --> 0:05:11.200 work from an internal family system's sort of model. I 0:05:11.200 --> 0:05:13.200 don't want to turn this into like a little mini 0:05:13.279 --> 0:05:16.880 lecture on non types of therapy. Go for it, but 0:05:17.040 --> 0:05:21.800 it's very, very briefly. It sort of conceptualizes a person 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:25.760 as having lots of different parts of themselves. Some are 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:28.159 very well known and of these protective parts that you 0:05:28.200 --> 0:05:30.720 bring out into the world, and some are lesser known. 0:05:31.000 --> 0:05:33.560 Some are deep and below the surface, and you might 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:36.279 go your whole life without really making much contact with them. 0:05:36.560 --> 0:05:39.000 So I tend to kind of look at it like 0:05:39.279 --> 0:05:43.039 it can be a system collapse. So they might have 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:48.360 gone swimmingly through their whole life, and a protective part 0:05:48.440 --> 0:05:50.680 might have kept them safe by being, for example, a 0:05:50.800 --> 0:05:54.160 people pleaser. You know, I'll do everything for everyone, and 0:05:54.200 --> 0:05:57.120 that kind of keeps me feeling good and I don't 0:05:57.160 --> 0:06:00.440 have to experience all this underlying sadness that's there. But 0:06:00.440 --> 0:06:02.920 then something changes in their life, like they get a 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:07.080 chronic illness, or maybe a relationship breaks down and they 0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:09.799 or they have children. Oh my gosh, having kids will 0:06:10.120 --> 0:06:12.760 one thousand percent break any kind of structure anyone is 0:06:12.800 --> 0:06:16.160 built around their sadness, and all these things that used 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:19.240 to protect them, I know they can't do them anymore. 0:06:19.839 --> 0:06:24.000 And sometimes when the system collapses like that, that's when 0:06:24.040 --> 0:06:25.560 you see people in a depression. 0:06:25.839 --> 0:06:30.360 Yeah, does that make Yeah totally. I think what I'm 0:06:30.400 --> 0:06:33.039 hearing to is that depression. And I was actually reading 0:06:33.080 --> 0:06:36.240 an article about this, and we're saying how depression isn't 0:06:36.279 --> 0:06:39.400 just a cognitive it's not just about the cognitive. It's 0:06:39.400 --> 0:06:43.120 also like a physical thing or it's like physiological So 0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:45.919 it does impact a body too, or is that a myth? 0:06:46.279 --> 0:06:50.359 Well I used to have this great supervisor and she 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:55.960 just said, we're not heads on sticks, Julie, And that's 0:06:56.000 --> 0:06:59.320 so interesting. I was like, what does she mean by that? 0:06:59.720 --> 0:07:03.880 But meant was our brains and our bodies are deeply connected. 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:08.120 So yeah, absolutely, when people become depressed, their body can 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:13.960 start to feel different. It my you know, difficulty sleeping, 0:07:14.320 --> 0:07:20.320 low energy, and fatigue and tiredness and difficulty getting going. 0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:24.640 So yeah, And the ways in which both trauma and 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:27.679 depression can show up in your body are as widen 0:07:27.760 --> 0:07:30.200 as varied as the people in the world and the 0:07:30.280 --> 0:07:33.960 types of experiences that they can have. So that's pretty wild. 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:37.080 Actually, there are different types of depression too, right, because 0:07:37.080 --> 0:07:40.480 it's not just a blanket depression label. 0:07:41.000 --> 0:07:45.000 There is sort of like your blanket depression, Mabel. That's 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:47.280 probably what people are talking about when they say I'm 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:50.520 clinically depressed or you know, I have major depressive disorder. 0:07:51.240 --> 0:07:53.640 But there's also different kinds of types as well, right, 0:07:53.680 --> 0:07:57.560 So there's like persistent sort of low chronic mood, like 0:07:57.640 --> 0:08:02.000 chronic low mood, something called dysthymia, major depressive disorder. There's 0:08:02.080 --> 0:08:08.160 seasonal effective disorder, which is you know, very cruelly labeled 0:08:08.320 --> 0:08:14.480 s a D sad. Why did they do Why there's 0:08:14.480 --> 0:08:18.200 a seasonal effective disorder And that's a real thing. I 0:08:18.280 --> 0:08:20.640 wanted to shout out to all the ladies. Pre Menstrual 0:08:20.720 --> 0:08:25.160 dysphoric disorder is a real thing. You know. It's something 0:08:25.200 --> 0:08:27.440 I kind of think I've had my whole life, but 0:08:27.480 --> 0:08:30.920 it was just, you know, pretty much told, oh, yes, 0:08:30.960 --> 0:08:34.120 we all get a bit cranky before our period. But yeah, 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:37.439 it can be a real thing, like episodes of depression 0:08:37.920 --> 0:08:40.360 before you get your period. Get a period, and then 0:08:41.040 --> 0:08:47.000 hey and better. Yeah. They're usually useful more for administrative 0:08:47.120 --> 0:08:52.040 or like pureaucratic processes. It's not always necessary I think 0:08:52.320 --> 0:08:54.840 in therapy or for yourself to know exactly which kind 0:08:54.960 --> 0:08:58.079 you have. They really are just categories. I think it's 0:08:58.120 --> 0:09:01.560 good to be whether they're a thing like seasonal effective disorder, 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:04.839 postpartum depression, slash anxiety. It's good to know that they're 0:09:04.880 --> 0:09:08.360 a thing. I think that's really important. But you know, 0:09:09.800 --> 0:09:12.080 we have to create these categories because sort of have 0:09:12.120 --> 0:09:15.520 to draw the line somewhere yea. And you know, the 0:09:15.559 --> 0:09:18.200 people on the board for the diagnostic and Statistic manual 0:09:18.320 --> 0:09:22.080 will just draw the lines based on research, and that's 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:26.679 not always exactly what someone needs to know when they're 0:09:26.920 --> 0:09:29.600 trying to feel better. They just know that something's really 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:34.120 really wrong and someone will listen to you, so get 0:09:34.200 --> 0:09:34.920 it checked out. 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:38.280 After the break, we unpack some of the biggest misconceptions 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:41.000 about depression. What do you feel are some of the 0:09:41.040 --> 0:09:44.880 biggest misconceptions when it comes to depression that you want 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:46.280 people to understand better. 0:09:46.600 --> 0:09:51.240 It's not just sadness. It's a type of sadness that 0:09:52.080 --> 0:09:55.560 you know. It's also hopeless and it can feel like 0:09:55.679 --> 0:10:00.959 worthlessness as well and a numbness, so it's it's deep. 0:10:01.040 --> 0:10:04.000 As I said, I feel it can become very self perpetuating. Yeah, 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:07.920 people don't really feel alive anymore. They can feel like 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:12.040 they're in zombie mode. So I think it's important just 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:15.480 to dispel the myth that they're just a bit sad, 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:19.640 because usually by the time someone's like, I think I'm depressed, 0:10:19.679 --> 0:10:23.880 it's like, yeah, you are, Like don't people tend to 0:10:24.200 --> 0:10:25.840 they don't want to be judged. They tend to err 0:10:25.920 --> 0:10:30.679 on the side of not like kind of putting themselves 0:10:30.720 --> 0:10:33.240 out there and saying, hey, I think something's wrong. Another 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:36.960 really important one is the person does not want to 0:10:37.120 --> 0:10:43.360 be that way. Our culture is really into blaming people 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:48.280 they're sick or just really believing that you can do 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:50.640 anything with just a bit of willpower and a bit 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:56.120 of cheer. Weakness is often very much like shove to 0:10:56.160 --> 0:10:57.920 the side. We don't want to see any of that. 0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:02.520 And so somebody if they don't understand somebody's depression, it's 0:11:02.559 --> 0:11:04.440 so common for people just to go, oh, well, like, 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:06.800 look what they're getting out of it. They don't have 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:09.000 to go to work, they don't have to go to 0:11:09.040 --> 0:11:11.839 the gym, you know, they kind of like being looked after. 0:11:12.480 --> 0:11:16.040 None of that's true. I one of the biggest lessons 0:11:16.040 --> 0:11:19.760 I learned this was about addiction, but the same could 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:23.240 be said for depression. Was you know, as a young 0:11:23.280 --> 0:11:26.880 psychologist working in a group therapy session at a drug 0:11:26.880 --> 0:11:31.240 and alcohol clinic, and one of the women just said 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:34.559 to me in tears, like when we were in primary 0:11:34.600 --> 0:11:37.920 school and dreaming of our futures, none of us said 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:41.920 we want to be a drug addict. Yeah, And when 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:43.840 you peel it back like that, you're like, yeah, Like, 0:11:43.920 --> 0:11:47.640 nobody wants this for themselves. Nobody wants to feel like 0:11:47.679 --> 0:11:51.200 brushing their teeth is a huge achievement for the day. 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:54.560 But you can see the temptation. If people don't get it, 0:11:54.600 --> 0:11:57.720 they're like, well, it must be something I can understand. Yeah, 0:11:57.840 --> 0:12:03.120 but not the case the US think positive idea isn't 0:12:03.640 --> 0:12:09.160 quite right. You can't just sort of think positively and 0:12:09.200 --> 0:12:12.440 it will all turn around. It usually needs a lot 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:15.720 more than that to turn things around. There's definitely a 0:12:15.840 --> 0:12:18.319 role for some sort of like cognitive therapy where you 0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:20.880 try to change the way that you're thinking. It's much 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:21.920 much deeper than that. 0:12:23.320 --> 0:12:25.920 Yeah, Wow, there's so much to unpacking that. And there 0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:29.120 was something you were talking about before around how our 0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:34.079 experiences can potentially shape the way that we treat our 0:12:34.120 --> 0:12:36.800 mental health. And the question I had was, like, how 0:12:37.080 --> 0:12:41.960 do culture stigma or upbringing affect how people experience or 0:12:42.120 --> 0:12:43.719 talk about depression. 0:12:43.600 --> 0:12:49.200 Greatly, greatly. So that's like huge one, right, there, isn't it. 0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:51.920 There's so much in that that's like ten pieces. I 0:12:51.960 --> 0:12:54.840 can kind of see them all floating out here. So 0:12:55.000 --> 0:13:00.640 your upbringing really sows the seeds and it shapes child 0:13:01.400 --> 0:13:03.000 to who they'll be for the rest of their life. Right, 0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:08.840 So it doesn't have to be an abusive household. But 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:12.400 I will say that households where emotions are not really 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:19.880 taken into account, validated, looked after, if emotions or big 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:23.360 displays of emotions are sort of sidelined, that's kind of 0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:25.720 lead to an adult that then isn't really in touch 0:13:25.760 --> 0:13:28.400 with their own emotions and then finds it very hard 0:13:28.400 --> 0:13:32.040 to regulate their emotions later in life. On the other side, 0:13:32.840 --> 0:13:36.880 if somebody grows up in a household where emotions are uncontrolled, 0:13:38.160 --> 0:13:41.000 someone can turn and then all of a sudden, someone's 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:43.439 angry or happy, and the child has no idea how 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:46.480 that happened. If they're exposed to that chronic like switching 0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:50.680 of emotions, they're also gonna not be great at regulating 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:54.080 their emotions either, because they kind of don't lack that emotional. 0:13:53.640 --> 0:13:56.440 Safety It's interesting because I feel like there is a 0:13:56.440 --> 0:13:58.640 lot of that kind of shame and embarrassment that can 0:13:58.679 --> 0:14:01.600 come with mental health issues. For me coming from a 0:14:01.800 --> 0:14:05.240 Sri Lankan background, so Southeast Asian culture, you know, we 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:08.840 don't talk about emotions growing up. He's why I started 0:14:08.840 --> 0:14:11.640 the Flourished Journey, which is all about helping young women 0:14:11.720 --> 0:14:15.120 talk about mental health. But it's just interesting because there 0:14:15.160 --> 0:14:18.640 is such a stigma, Like I noticed that across different generations. 0:14:18.640 --> 0:14:22.840 To my aunties, my uncle's like, it's like, no, we're tough, 0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:25.200 like we're resilient. We don't what do you mean we 0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:27.360 stop and feel no, like we need to go to 0:14:27.400 --> 0:14:30.520 our job, do what we need to do. Survival stability first, 0:14:30.680 --> 0:14:35.040 not let's feel our emotions. But but they do recognize that. 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:38.720 You know, my generation and younger generations are getting more 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:41.040 in touch with it, so they see it as something like, oh, 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:44.400 that's really good for you. But you know, it's a 0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:47.200 lot to feel into. And you know, I don't blame them. 0:14:47.240 --> 0:14:50.000 You know, that's like a lot of conditioning and how 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:52.600 we've been brought up. So again, there's no like pointing 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:53.120 the finger. 0:14:53.280 --> 0:14:57.720 So it's really interesting, isn't it. So this, and it's 0:14:57.760 --> 0:15:01.720 in lots of different cultures. My husband Irish and it's 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:03.920 not the same as Sri Lankan culture, but there is 0:15:04.000 --> 0:15:08.400 certain like his family are from west the West Coast 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:12.080 of Ireland, rural island, and you like, you've got to 0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:16.880 be tough. There is no room for this fluffing about business. 0:15:17.120 --> 0:15:22.320 Does make me think about culturally, if a particular culture 0:15:22.320 --> 0:15:23.880 has had a really tough time, and it could have 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:26.360 been two hundred years ago, it doesn't matter. It passes 0:15:26.400 --> 0:15:29.680 down through the generations totally to this sort of like 0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:34.440 we cannot indulge in many of this stuff. Yeah, yeah, 0:15:34.560 --> 0:15:37.640 I did want to say I'd feel terrible if I 0:15:37.680 --> 0:15:44.120 didn't mention that people's experience of depression based on their 0:15:44.160 --> 0:15:50.000 culture or been a marginalized community, They're going to experience depression. 0:15:50.280 --> 0:15:53.240 They're going to have it worse because they're in a 0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:58.160 marginalized community. I think like they carry this disproportionate load 0:15:58.680 --> 0:16:05.920 based on insidious traumatization and unfair systems. So it's just 0:16:06.000 --> 0:16:09.200 really important to point out as well that depression might 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:14.080 actually look like it's occurring more in Aboriginal and Torrest 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:19.960 Right Islander communities or LGP TQI plus culturally and linguistically 0:16:20.000 --> 0:16:26.160 diverse communities and also people with disabilities as well, and 0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:28.120 so that I'd be like, well, yeah, of course. 0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:30.720 And it's good to shine a light on that because 0:16:30.760 --> 0:16:33.720 it is really important, and it's good that you kind 0:16:33.720 --> 0:16:37.880 of spoke around how depression can be experienced in different communities. 0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:43.600 How does it translate into gender or age, Like, do 0:16:43.640 --> 0:16:46.640 you notice there's like a not so much a trend, 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:52.120 but do you notice there's like a commonality amongst Yeah, well, 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:52.960 I've had. 0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:57.040 A little chat about age gender. I think is there's 0:16:57.040 --> 0:16:59.960 something very interesting going on in our culture right now. 0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:03.120 It's probably something that's been kicking along for ages, but 0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:07.800 we're really starting to see it. We socialize boys in 0:17:07.920 --> 0:17:12.280 such a silly way, you know, these ideas about masculinity, 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:16.040 and we were just talking before about you know, you know, 0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:19.920 don't share your feelings, harden up, push that down, push through, 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:24.560 don't cry. It's it makes it very hard for people 0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:29.200 then to recognize their sadness or their shame when they're 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:34.160 not meeting these ideals, and that can become super toxic 0:17:34.359 --> 0:17:37.680 and really unfair for young boys men and then older 0:17:37.720 --> 0:17:40.920 men as they kind of carry around that mantle of 0:17:41.400 --> 0:17:44.159 some weird thing that we've decided as a culture is 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:47.680 being masculine, and then if they don't outperform overperform what 0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:50.520 that is, then they should be really embarrassed. You can't 0:17:50.560 --> 0:17:52.600 tell anyone about it, and you don't even know what 0:17:52.600 --> 0:17:55.400 that feels like. I mean, it's how did we think 0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:59.520 that was going to go well? I don't. That is 0:17:59.640 --> 0:18:04.320 never going to go well. Yeah, and women carry our 0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:10.600 own load, right, you know, chronic stress of navigating patriarchal 0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:14.880 unfair structures like as I talked about before with other 0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:21.320 marginalized communities is really gonna suck, and it can make 0:18:21.400 --> 0:18:25.720 life harder. But there's also like there's the way that 0:18:26.000 --> 0:18:30.240 women are taught to be and what being acceptable is 0:18:30.320 --> 0:18:32.760 for a little girl. That can also be really harmful. 0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:36.560 You can look like lots of different things, like narratives 0:18:36.600 --> 0:18:39.800 that are still really strong in children's cartoons about finding 0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:42.880 love will save you and how to find love, you'd 0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:47.840 be beautiful, or you'd be sweet or talented, or just 0:18:47.880 --> 0:18:51.280 that right mix of like enough sasp but not like 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:55.840 making anyone feel threatened. That hard line, and that can 0:18:56.200 --> 0:18:59.600 of itself mean that depression shows up really differently. Right, 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:04.520 You might outperform overgrow, but at the cost of your 0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:08.960 own sense of self, like, you know, abandoning who you 0:19:09.040 --> 0:19:13.960 really are. Yeah, so it absolutely can show up differently 0:19:14.080 --> 0:19:14.720 in genders. 0:19:15.520 --> 0:19:19.120 I was reading an article about how depression it's not 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:24.040 just about low serotonin levels, Like, there's more to it. So, like, 0:19:24.080 --> 0:19:27.440 what actually are the causes of depression? 0:19:28.160 --> 0:19:33.719 Oh, so the low serotonin theory is You're right, it 0:19:33.760 --> 0:19:39.560 has been debunked. But I guess because antidepressants, which work 0:19:39.600 --> 0:19:43.120 on serotonin increase the amount of available serotonin in your 0:19:43.119 --> 0:19:45.720 brain works so well. They were like, well, it must 0:19:45.760 --> 0:19:49.359 be that depression is because people have low serotonin levels. 0:19:49.760 --> 0:19:52.960 But as they do more and more research, the findings 0:19:52.960 --> 0:19:56.320 are more and more inconsistent. Just doesn't show a clear relationship. 0:19:56.880 --> 0:20:02.360 So then it's like, what, what does cause depression? There 0:20:02.440 --> 0:20:07.399 are some biological factors that might make somebody more predisposed 0:20:07.680 --> 0:20:11.639 to becoming depressed. I don't think that this is particularly 0:20:11.680 --> 0:20:16.280 well known, and your research is ongoing. It's things like 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:21.639 a dysregulated stress response, so more difficulty to calm your 0:20:21.640 --> 0:20:25.520 body down after being stressed, or heightened emotions. It could 0:20:25.520 --> 0:20:33.439 be inflammation in the brain, changes in neuroplasticity, there's but 0:20:33.480 --> 0:20:35.560 there's no way at this point in time that we 0:20:35.600 --> 0:20:38.560 haven't got like a clinical cutoff where we can go, right, okay, 0:20:38.600 --> 0:20:40.679 like you've got this much near inflammation, you're at this 0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:44.000 risk of developing depression. And something that I've been thinking 0:20:44.119 --> 0:20:48.280 very deeply about in recent years is your biology, particularly 0:20:48.280 --> 0:20:51.320 when it comes to mental health, is and deterministic is 0:20:51.760 --> 0:20:55.520 definitely a part of the puzzle. But I've kind of 0:20:56.680 --> 0:20:59.760 I have to get to a point where I'm almost like, no, 0:20:59.760 --> 0:21:04.280 no one's biology or predisposition can be inherently bad. Because 0:21:04.320 --> 0:21:06.520 to do that, you'd have to look at a child 0:21:06.760 --> 0:21:10.960 and be like, well, you're just already wrong. And that's 0:21:11.000 --> 0:21:13.480 just obviously not how we think about it. That's not 0:21:13.560 --> 0:21:17.720 how we see everybody is having all this potential. My 0:21:17.800 --> 0:21:24.159 own daughter, Billy is just like so emotional, and you know, 0:21:24.640 --> 0:21:29.960 heapes of difficulties concentrating and cries a lot and can 0:21:30.080 --> 0:21:33.879 you know, falls over and screams. She has the full 0:21:33.920 --> 0:21:37.280 gamut of human emotions, and so you know, if we're 0:21:37.280 --> 0:21:40.280 looking at like she probably has some biology there that 0:21:40.359 --> 0:21:45.320 makes her very sensitive to or very can be flooded 0:21:45.400 --> 0:21:50.240 by her emotions. But it's also like something really cool 0:21:50.280 --> 0:21:53.520 about her, and she's very lovable, Like there's nothing bad 0:21:53.600 --> 0:21:57.400 about that. I don't think there's even a dysregulated stress 0:21:57.440 --> 0:22:01.679 response system. It's useful. It's some in some ways to 0:22:01.720 --> 0:22:04.439 have you know someone in your tribe who's always just 0:22:04.640 --> 0:22:08.160 like a little bit more predisposed to being stressed, because 0:22:08.200 --> 0:22:10.760 they might kind of push us, nudge us along, and 0:22:10.920 --> 0:22:14.080 they have all these positive qualities. So it's not just 0:22:14.240 --> 0:22:19.240 the biology. I always kind of go back to. It's biological, 0:22:19.400 --> 0:22:25.000 it's social and environmental, and then then it's psychological. Then 0:22:25.080 --> 0:22:29.359 it's like what the person does with their biology, their environment, 0:22:29.520 --> 0:22:33.720 and how they survive. Those two things can create depression. Right. 0:22:33.800 --> 0:22:36.920 So, and when you say social and environmental, you're essentially 0:22:36.960 --> 0:22:39.280 just saying the way in which a person's grown up 0:22:39.359 --> 0:22:42.399 and the environment the current context they're currently in as well. 0:22:43.040 --> 0:22:47.560 Yeah. Yeah, So it's so their environment, their culture, all 0:22:47.560 --> 0:22:51.200 the stuff we're speaking about, right, like what's their family background, 0:22:51.359 --> 0:22:53.600 Like where do they live, what structures are kind of 0:22:53.720 --> 0:22:57.040 forcing them to be something that they're not. Then there's 0:22:57.119 --> 0:23:00.240 that family of origin is really important, and it's such 0:23:00.240 --> 0:23:03.000 a trope, like you go to a psychologist, they're like, 0:23:03.320 --> 0:23:09.880 tell me about your mother, but it's these are your 0:23:09.920 --> 0:23:16.240 first important, close, loving relationships and they absolutely form the 0:23:16.240 --> 0:23:19.560 person that you are. It doesn't ye as I said before, 0:23:19.560 --> 0:23:25.359 it doesn't need to be an abusive or neglectful household 0:23:25.440 --> 0:23:28.640 to create problems later down the line. People are doing 0:23:28.840 --> 0:23:32.040 the most parents, I should say, not all are doing 0:23:32.080 --> 0:23:35.640 the best they can, and it can still sometimes cause 0:23:35.680 --> 0:23:41.119 some issues down the track. Right, So early experiences, how 0:23:41.200 --> 0:23:46.080 we navigate threat, how we perceive relationships, how I should 0:23:46.080 --> 0:23:51.000 be in a relationship. You put these all together, and 0:23:51.359 --> 0:23:55.240 as I said before, from an internal family system's perspective, 0:23:56.160 --> 0:23:59.160 that environment, your temperament, people start to kind of create 0:23:59.200 --> 0:24:02.120 all different parts of the self to manage. And yeah, 0:24:02.320 --> 0:24:05.560 I do think that it's usually when the current context 0:24:05.680 --> 0:24:08.600 some kind of trigger and the whole system can't cope anymore. 0:24:08.680 --> 0:24:10.880 What you've done your whole life to get by all 0:24:10.880 --> 0:24:14.400 of a sudden doesn't work anymore. That's when we tend 0:24:14.400 --> 0:24:18.840 to see this sort of system collapse, and which can 0:24:18.920 --> 0:24:22.040 look like depression, and other people could look like raging 0:24:22.080 --> 0:24:27.879 anxiety or like some sort of narcissistic personalities. It can 0:24:27.920 --> 0:24:30.600 look so different, but for some people it looks like depression. 0:24:30.840 --> 0:24:34.199 Yeah, yeah, so I know that we've been doing a 0:24:34.200 --> 0:24:38.160 lot of myth busting, and something I've heard about is 0:24:38.200 --> 0:24:41.439 that depression is often talked about as something to fix 0:24:41.640 --> 0:24:47.320 or cure from a clinical perspective. What's unhelpful or even 0:24:47.480 --> 0:24:49.560 harmful around phrasing like that. 0:24:49.960 --> 0:24:54.600 Yeah, I mean it's I can feel it right, It's like, yeah, 0:24:54.720 --> 0:24:59.199 I mean, nobody wants to feel depressed, like sadness sucks. 0:25:00.000 --> 0:25:02.919 People want to be better, and that's totally normal and 0:25:03.000 --> 0:25:05.680