Speaker 1: They can understand themselves better, be more self compassionate, understand
Speaker 1: the world differently. I really think you cannot just get better,
Speaker 1: but you can get like better better.
Speaker 2: Welcome to you, But are you happy? I'm a shiny Dante.
Speaker 2: Previously on this podcast, we've done a series of mythbusting
Speaker 2: episodes around ADHD, OCD, and BPD. Today we're turning to
Speaker 2: depression because there are still a lot of misconceptions about it,
Speaker 2: that it's something you can just snap out of, that
Speaker 2: it's simply extreme sadness, or that it reflects some kind
Speaker 2: of personal weakness. But depression is far more complex than that.
Speaker 2: Joining us today is Julie Chapman, a registered psychologist with
Speaker 2: over fifteen years of experience in trauma informed care, addiction,
Speaker 2: and complex mental health, including depression. She is here to
Speaker 2: unpack what depression actually is, how it shows up beyond
Speaker 2: just sadness, the myths that still shape how we think
Speaker 2: about it, and what recovery can really look like in practice,
Speaker 2: not just in theory. Here's our conversation. Hello, Julie, Welcome
Speaker 2: to But are you happy? I am actually really excited
Speaker 2: to talk about this topic depression, which sounds a bit
Speaker 2: of an oxymoron in itself because there is a lot
Speaker 2: to it. But yes, vastally just want to say thank
Speaker 2: you for joining us my pleasure.
Speaker 1: I love talking about all things mental health, even topics
Speaker 1: like depression. I think there's so much in it that's
Speaker 1: really interesting, and so I hope people really like learning
Speaker 1: more about it today.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I know we will. And it's interesting too
Speaker 2: because when I hear the word depression, right, it gets
Speaker 2: thrown around a lot casually in conversation. We can just
Speaker 2: be like with our girlfriends, I'm depressed, but no, you're
Speaker 2: actually just sad, and it gets me thinking about what
Speaker 2: actually is depression.
Speaker 1: It's something, it's funny. I agreed to do this and
Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, I'll talk about depression, and then
Speaker 1: I was like what is depression? I went, oh, yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: let's go back to basics. What is it? It absolutely
Speaker 1: can be thrown around a lot. Sadness is a normal
Speaker 1: human emotion. It's actually pretty good for us. We need
Speaker 1: it as well. I think the difference for me between
Speaker 1: normal sadness and really entering a depressive episode is when
Speaker 1: it starts to spread, colonize and become this sort of
Speaker 1: self perpetuating darkness in somebody's life. That's not a clinical
Speaker 1: definition of depression, but that's I think an easier way
Speaker 1: for people to understand it. There are definitely diagnostic and
Speaker 1: statistic criteria out there that pretty much anyone can go
Speaker 1: out and google themselves and I'll give a list of criteria.
Speaker 1: You know, it has loss of interest in your activity,
Speaker 1: these you could, but it has weird things in there,
Speaker 1: like you might sleep too much or not enough. You
Speaker 1: might put on lots of weight or lose lots of weight.
Speaker 1: So it's sometimes tricky. People are going through and thinking
Speaker 1: do I meet this? Is this me? I think it's
Speaker 1: probably more useful to think of it in the first
Speaker 1: way I described it. It's when it really like settles
Speaker 1: in and it starts to then create more depression for you.
Speaker 1: So you've become really negative in your thinking, and then
Speaker 1: that negative thinking starts to really spiral.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, so yeah, And it was really interesting when
Speaker 2: you said self perpetuating darkness because I mean, just those
Speaker 2: words itselfs is a lot like what does that actually
Speaker 2: look like? Then for someone who might be like, oh
Speaker 2: am I depressed?
Speaker 1: Am I just sad?
Speaker 2: Because it sounds like it's quite deep, like, is it
Speaker 2: kind of it's showing up in so many different areas
Speaker 2: of your life, or it's impacting kind of like your
Speaker 2: quality of life.
Speaker 1: I think the thing is that's really hard about thinking
Speaker 1: about what it might look like in someone's life is
Speaker 1: because everybody experiences depressions so differently, it's going to look
Speaker 1: so different depending on who is experiencing it. Right, So
Speaker 1: there are lots of things like you could look at,
Speaker 1: you know, low mood, losing interesting things, sleeping, fatigue, difficulty concentrating.
Speaker 1: But I'm not really sure if that always helps people
Speaker 1: to kind of think, oh, yeah, I'm depressed. Perhaps it's
Speaker 1: more useful to think of it like it's going to
Speaker 1: look really really different depending on who's experiencing it. For
Speaker 1: some people, know one on the surface would ever know,
Speaker 1: you know, like, or it might just be someone really
Speaker 1: really close to them might start to see some of
Speaker 1: the cracks. You could be looking at anything from intense irritability,
Speaker 1: difficulty keeping up with a job, not enjoying things that
Speaker 1: used to give them lots of joy. I wonder if
Speaker 1: it's probably too early to bring it up. But I
Speaker 1: work from an internal family system's sort of model. I
Speaker 1: don't want to turn this into like a little mini
Speaker 1: lecture on non types of therapy. Go for it, but
Speaker 1: it's very, very briefly. It sort of conceptualizes a person
Speaker 1: as having lots of different parts of themselves. Some are
Speaker 1: very well known and of these protective parts that you
Speaker 1: bring out into the world, and some are lesser known.
Speaker 1: Some are deep and below the surface, and you might
Speaker 1: go your whole life without really making much contact with them.
Speaker 1: So I tend to kind of look at it like
Speaker 1: it can be a system collapse. So they might have
Speaker 1: gone swimmingly through their whole life, and a protective part
Speaker 1: might have kept them safe by being, for example, a
Speaker 1: people pleaser. You know, I'll do everything for everyone, and
Speaker 1: that kind of keeps me feeling good and I don't
Speaker 1: have to experience all this underlying sadness that's there. But
Speaker 1: then something changes in their life, like they get a
Speaker 1: chronic illness, or maybe a relationship breaks down and they
Speaker 1: or they have children. Oh my gosh, having kids will
Speaker 1: one thousand percent break any kind of structure anyone is
Speaker 1: built around their sadness, and all these things that used
Speaker 1: to protect them, I know they can't do them anymore.
Speaker 1: And sometimes when the system collapses like that, that's when
Speaker 1: you see people in a depression.
Speaker 2: Yeah, does that make Yeah totally. I think what I'm
Speaker 2: hearing to is that depression. And I was actually reading
Speaker 2: an article about this, and we're saying how depression isn't
Speaker 2: just a cognitive it's not just about the cognitive. It's
Speaker 2: also like a physical thing or it's like physiological So
Speaker 2: it does impact a body too, or is that a myth?
Speaker 1: Well I used to have this great supervisor and she
Speaker 1: just said, we're not heads on sticks, Julie, And that's
Speaker 1: so interesting. I was like, what does she mean by that?
Speaker 1: But meant was our brains and our bodies are deeply connected.
Speaker 1: So yeah, absolutely, when people become depressed, their body can
Speaker 1: start to feel different. It my you know, difficulty sleeping,
Speaker 1: low energy, and fatigue and tiredness and difficulty getting going.
Speaker 1: So yeah, And the ways in which both trauma and
Speaker 1: depression can show up in your body are as widen
Speaker 1: as varied as the people in the world and the
Speaker 1: types of experiences that they can have. So that's pretty wild.
Speaker 2: Actually, there are different types of depression too, right, because
Speaker 2: it's not just a blanket depression label.
Speaker 1: There is sort of like your blanket depression, Mabel. That's
Speaker 1: probably what people are talking about when they say I'm
Speaker 1: clinically depressed or you know, I have major depressive disorder.
Speaker 1: But there's also different kinds of types as well, right,
Speaker 1: So there's like persistent sort of low chronic mood, like
Speaker 1: chronic low mood, something called dysthymia, major depressive disorder. There's
Speaker 1: seasonal effective disorder, which is you know, very cruelly labeled
Speaker 1: s a D sad. Why did they do Why there's
Speaker 1: a seasonal effective disorder And that's a real thing. I
Speaker 1: wanted to shout out to all the ladies. Pre Menstrual
Speaker 1: dysphoric disorder is a real thing. You know. It's something
Speaker 1: I kind of think I've had my whole life, but
Speaker 1: it was just, you know, pretty much told, oh, yes,
Speaker 1: we all get a bit cranky before our period. But yeah,
Speaker 1: it can be a real thing, like episodes of depression
Speaker 1: before you get your period. Get a period, and then
Speaker 1: hey and better. Yeah. They're usually useful more for administrative
Speaker 1: or like pureaucratic processes. It's not always necessary I think
Speaker 1: in therapy or for yourself to know exactly which kind
Speaker 1: you have. They really are just categories. I think it's
Speaker 1: good to be whether they're a thing like seasonal effective disorder,
Speaker 1: postpartum depression, slash anxiety. It's good to know that they're
Speaker 1: a thing. I think that's really important. But you know,
Speaker 1: we have to create these categories because sort of have
Speaker 1: to draw the line somewhere yea. And you know, the
Speaker 1: people on the board for the diagnostic and Statistic manual
Speaker 1: will just draw the lines based on research, and that's
Speaker 1: not always exactly what someone needs to know when they're
Speaker 1: trying to feel better. They just know that something's really
Speaker 1: really wrong and someone will listen to you, so get
Speaker 1: it checked out.
Speaker 2: After the break, we unpack some of the biggest misconceptions
Speaker 2: about depression. What do you feel are some of the
Speaker 2: biggest misconceptions when it comes to depression that you want
Speaker 2: people to understand better.
Speaker 1: It's not just sadness. It's a type of sadness that
Speaker 1: you know. It's also hopeless and it can feel like
Speaker 1: worthlessness as well and a numbness, so it's it's deep.
Speaker 1: As I said, I feel it can become very self perpetuating. Yeah,
Speaker 1: people don't really feel alive anymore. They can feel like
Speaker 1: they're in zombie mode. So I think it's important just
Speaker 1: to dispel the myth that they're just a bit sad,
Speaker 1: because usually by the time someone's like, I think I'm depressed,
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, you are, Like don't people tend to
Speaker 1: they don't want to be judged. They tend to err
Speaker 1: on the side of not like kind of putting themselves
Speaker 1: out there and saying, hey, I think something's wrong. Another
Speaker 1: really important one is the person does not want to
Speaker 1: be that way. Our culture is really into blaming people
Speaker 1: they're sick or just really believing that you can do
Speaker 1: anything with just a bit of willpower and a bit
Speaker 1: of cheer. Weakness is often very much like shove to
Speaker 1: the side. We don't want to see any of that.
Speaker 1: And so somebody if they don't understand somebody's depression, it's
Speaker 1: so common for people just to go, oh, well, like,
Speaker 1: look what they're getting out of it. They don't have
Speaker 1: to go to work, they don't have to go to
Speaker 1: the gym, you know, they kind of like being looked after.
Speaker 1: None of that's true. I one of the biggest lessons
Speaker 1: I learned this was about addiction, but the same could
Speaker 1: be said for depression. Was you know, as a young
Speaker 1: psychologist working in a group therapy session at a drug
Speaker 1: and alcohol clinic, and one of the women just said
Speaker 1: to me in tears, like when we were in primary
Speaker 1: school and dreaming of our futures, none of us said
Speaker 1: we want to be a drug addict. Yeah, And when
Speaker 1: you peel it back like that, you're like, yeah, Like,
Speaker 1: nobody wants this for themselves. Nobody wants to feel like
Speaker 1: brushing their teeth is a huge achievement for the day.
Speaker 1: But you can see the temptation. If people don't get it,
Speaker 1: they're like, well, it must be something I can understand. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but not the case the US think positive idea isn't
Speaker 1: quite right. You can't just sort of think positively and
Speaker 1: it will all turn around. It usually needs a lot
Speaker 1: more than that to turn things around. There's definitely a
Speaker 1: role for some sort of like cognitive therapy where you
Speaker 1: try to change the way that you're thinking. It's much
Speaker 1: much deeper than that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Wow, there's so much to unpacking that. And there
Speaker 2: was something you were talking about before around how our
Speaker 2: experiences can potentially shape the way that we treat our
Speaker 2: mental health. And the question I had was, like, how
Speaker 2: do culture stigma or upbringing affect how people experience or
Speaker 2: talk about depression.
Speaker 1: Greatly, greatly. So that's like huge one, right, there, isn't it.
Speaker 1: There's so much in that that's like ten pieces. I
Speaker 1: can kind of see them all floating out here. So
Speaker 1: your upbringing really sows the seeds and it shapes child
Speaker 1: to who they'll be for the rest of their life. Right,
Speaker 1: So it doesn't have to be an abusive household. But
Speaker 1: I will say that households where emotions are not really
Speaker 1: taken into account, validated, looked after, if emotions or big
Speaker 1: displays of emotions are sort of sidelined, that's kind of
Speaker 1: lead to an adult that then isn't really in touch
Speaker 1: with their own emotions and then finds it very hard
Speaker 1: to regulate their emotions later in life. On the other side,
Speaker 1: if somebody grows up in a household where emotions are uncontrolled,
Speaker 1: someone can turn and then all of a sudden, someone's
Speaker 1: angry or happy, and the child has no idea how
Speaker 1: that happened. If they're exposed to that chronic like switching
Speaker 1: of emotions, they're also gonna not be great at regulating
Speaker 1: their emotions either, because they kind of don't lack that emotional.
Speaker 2: Safety It's interesting because I feel like there is a
Speaker 2: lot of that kind of shame and embarrassment that can
Speaker 2: come with mental health issues. For me coming from a
Speaker 2: Sri Lankan background, so Southeast Asian culture, you know, we
Speaker 2: don't talk about emotions growing up. He's why I started
Speaker 2: the Flourished Journey, which is all about helping young women
Speaker 2: talk about mental health. But it's just interesting because there
Speaker 2: is such a stigma, Like I noticed that across different generations.
Speaker 2: To my aunties, my uncle's like, it's like, no, we're tough,
Speaker 2: like we're resilient. We don't what do you mean we
Speaker 2: stop and feel no, like we need to go to
Speaker 2: our job, do what we need to do. Survival stability first,
Speaker 2: not let's feel our emotions. But but they do recognize that.
Speaker 2: You know, my generation and younger generations are getting more
Speaker 2: in touch with it, so they see it as something like, oh,
Speaker 2: that's really good for you. But you know, it's a
Speaker 2: lot to feel into. And you know, I don't blame them.
Speaker 2: You know, that's like a lot of conditioning and how
Speaker 2: we've been brought up. So again, there's no like pointing
Speaker 2: the finger.
Speaker 1: So it's really interesting, isn't it. So this, and it's
Speaker 1: in lots of different cultures. My husband Irish and it's
Speaker 1: not the same as Sri Lankan culture, but there is
Speaker 1: certain like his family are from west the West Coast
Speaker 1: of Ireland, rural island, and you like, you've got to
Speaker 1: be tough. There is no room for this fluffing about business.
Speaker 1: Does make me think about culturally, if a particular culture
Speaker 1: has had a really tough time, and it could have
Speaker 1: been two hundred years ago, it doesn't matter. It passes
Speaker 1: down through the generations totally to this sort of like
Speaker 1: we cannot indulge in many of this stuff. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I did want to say I'd feel terrible if I
Speaker 1: didn't mention that people's experience of depression based on their
Speaker 1: culture or been a marginalized community, They're going to experience depression.
Speaker 1: They're going to have it worse because they're in a
Speaker 1: marginalized community. I think like they carry this disproportionate load
Speaker 1: based on insidious traumatization and unfair systems. So it's just
Speaker 1: really important to point out as well that depression might
Speaker 1: actually look like it's occurring more in Aboriginal and Torrest
Speaker 1: Right Islander communities or LGP TQI plus culturally and linguistically
Speaker 1: diverse communities and also people with disabilities as well, and
Speaker 1: so that I'd be like, well, yeah, of course.
Speaker 2: And it's good to shine a light on that because
Speaker 2: it is really important, and it's good that you kind
Speaker 2: of spoke around how depression can be experienced in different communities.
Speaker 2: How does it translate into gender or age, Like, do
Speaker 2: you notice there's like a not so much a trend,
Speaker 2: but do you notice there's like a commonality amongst Yeah, well,
Speaker 2: I've had.
Speaker 1: A little chat about age gender. I think is there's
Speaker 1: something very interesting going on in our culture right now.
Speaker 1: It's probably something that's been kicking along for ages, but
Speaker 1: we're really starting to see it. We socialize boys in
Speaker 1: such a silly way, you know, these ideas about masculinity,
Speaker 1: and we were just talking before about you know, you know,
Speaker 1: don't share your feelings, harden up, push that down, push through,
Speaker 1: don't cry. It's it makes it very hard for people
Speaker 1: then to recognize their sadness or their shame when they're
Speaker 1: not meeting these ideals, and that can become super toxic
Speaker 1: and really unfair for young boys men and then older
Speaker 1: men as they kind of carry around that mantle of
Speaker 1: some weird thing that we've decided as a culture is
Speaker 1: being masculine, and then if they don't outperform overperform what
Speaker 1: that is, then they should be really embarrassed. You can't
Speaker 1: tell anyone about it, and you don't even know what
Speaker 1: that feels like. I mean, it's how did we think
Speaker 1: that was going to go well? I don't. That is
Speaker 1: never going to go well. Yeah, and women carry our
Speaker 1: own load, right, you know, chronic stress of navigating patriarchal
Speaker 1: unfair structures like as I talked about before with other
Speaker 1: marginalized communities is really gonna suck, and it can make
Speaker 1: life harder. But there's also like there's the way that
Speaker 1: women are taught to be and what being acceptable is
Speaker 1: for a little girl. That can also be really harmful.
Speaker 1: You can look like lots of different things, like narratives
Speaker 1: that are still really strong in children's cartoons about finding
Speaker 1: love will save you and how to find love, you'd
Speaker 1: be beautiful, or you'd be sweet or talented, or just
Speaker 1: that right mix of like enough sasp but not like
Speaker 1: making anyone feel threatened. That hard line, and that can
Speaker 1: of itself mean that depression shows up really differently. Right,
Speaker 1: You might outperform overgrow, but at the cost of your
Speaker 1: own sense of self, like, you know, abandoning who you
Speaker 1: really are. Yeah, so it absolutely can show up differently
Speaker 1: in genders.
Speaker 2: I was reading an article about how depression it's not
Speaker 2: just about low serotonin levels, Like, there's more to it. So, like,
Speaker 2: what actually are the causes of depression?
Speaker 1: Oh, so the low serotonin theory is You're right, it
Speaker 1: has been debunked. But I guess because antidepressants, which work
Speaker 1: on serotonin increase the amount of available serotonin in your
Speaker 1: brain works so well. They were like, well, it must
Speaker 1: be that depression is because people have low serotonin levels.
Speaker 1: But as they do more and more research, the findings
Speaker 1: are more and more inconsistent. Just doesn't show a clear relationship.
Speaker 1: So then it's like, what, what does cause depression? There
Speaker 1: are some biological factors that might make somebody more predisposed
Speaker 1: to becoming depressed. I don't think that this is particularly
Speaker 1: well known, and your research is ongoing. It's things like
Speaker 1: a dysregulated stress response, so more difficulty to calm your
Speaker 1: body down after being stressed, or heightened emotions. It could
Speaker 1: be inflammation in the brain, changes in neuroplasticity, there's but
Speaker 1: there's no way at this point in time that we
Speaker 1: haven't got like a clinical cutoff where we can go, right, okay,
Speaker 1: like you've got this much near inflammation, you're at this
Speaker 1: risk of developing depression. And something that I've been thinking
Speaker 1: very deeply about in recent years is your biology, particularly
Speaker 1: when it comes to mental health, is and deterministic is
Speaker 1: definitely a part of the puzzle. But I've kind of
Speaker 1: I have to get to a point where I'm almost like, no,
Speaker 1: no one's biology or predisposition can be inherently bad. Because
Speaker 1: to do that, you'd have to look at a child
Speaker 1: and be like, well, you're just already wrong. And that's
Speaker 1: just obviously not how we think about it. That's not
Speaker 1: how we see everybody is having all this potential. My
Speaker 1: own daughter, Billy is just like so emotional, and you know,
Speaker 1: heapes of difficulties concentrating and cries a lot and can
Speaker 1: you know, falls over and screams. She has the full
Speaker 1: gamut of human emotions, and so you know, if we're
Speaker 1: looking at like she probably has some biology there that
Speaker 1: makes her very sensitive to or very can be flooded
Speaker 1: by her emotions. But it's also like something really cool
Speaker 1: about her, and she's very lovable, Like there's nothing bad
Speaker 1: about that. I don't think there's even a dysregulated stress
Speaker 1: response system. It's useful. It's some in some ways to
Speaker 1: have you know someone in your tribe who's always just
Speaker 1: like a little bit more predisposed to being stressed, because
Speaker 1: they might kind of push us, nudge us along, and
Speaker 1: they have all these positive qualities. So it's not just
Speaker 1: the biology. I always kind of go back to. It's biological,
Speaker 1: it's social and environmental, and then then it's psychological. Then
Speaker 1: it's like what the person does with their biology, their environment,
Speaker 1: and how they survive. Those two things can create depression. Right.
Speaker 2: So, and when you say social and environmental, you're essentially
Speaker 2: just saying the way in which a person's grown up
Speaker 2: and the environment the current context they're currently in as well.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So it's so their environment, their culture, all
Speaker 1: the stuff we're speaking about, right, like what's their family background,
Speaker 1: Like where do they live, what structures are kind of
Speaker 1: forcing them to be something that they're not. Then there's
Speaker 1: that family of origin is really important, and it's such
Speaker 1: a trope, like you go to a psychologist, they're like,
Speaker 1: tell me about your mother, but it's these are your
Speaker 1: first important, close, loving relationships and they absolutely form the
Speaker 1: person that you are. It doesn't ye as I said before,
Speaker 1: it doesn't need to be an abusive or neglectful household
Speaker 1: to create problems later down the line. People are doing
Speaker 1: the most parents, I should say, not all are doing
Speaker 1: the best they can, and it can still sometimes cause
Speaker 1: some issues down the track. Right, So early experiences, how
Speaker 1: we navigate threat, how we perceive relationships, how I should
Speaker 1: be in a relationship. You put these all together, and
Speaker 1: as I said before, from an internal family system's perspective,
Speaker 1: that environment, your temperament, people start to kind of create
Speaker 1: all different parts of the self to manage. And yeah,
Speaker 1: I do think that it's usually when the current context
Speaker 1: some kind of trigger and the whole system can't cope anymore.
Speaker 1: What you've done your whole life to get by all
Speaker 1: of a sudden doesn't work anymore. That's when we tend
Speaker 1: to see this sort of system collapse, and which can
Speaker 1: look like depression, and other people could look like raging
Speaker 1: anxiety or like some sort of narcissistic personalities. It can
Speaker 1: look so different, but for some people it looks like depression.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so I know that we've been doing a
Speaker 2: lot of myth busting, and something I've heard about is
Speaker 2: that depression is often talked about as something to fix
Speaker 2: or cure from a clinical perspective. What's unhelpful or even
Speaker 2: harmful around phrasing like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's I can feel it right, It's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, nobody wants to feel depressed, like sadness sucks.
Speaker 1: People want to be better, and that's totally normal and
Speaker 1: natural and has to be validated. They don't want to
Speaker 1: be feeling like this, and they want to fix it.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: At the same time, you really have to hold that
Speaker 1: there's still nothing wrong with the person. Fixing Your curing
Speaker 1: implies that they're broken, that there's something really wrong with them.
Speaker 1: And so yeah, when it comes to sort of thinking
Speaker 1: through fixing or curing, like you don't want to eliminate
Speaker 1: the depression. You know, I'm coming from a perspective where
Speaker 1: I'm trying to understand it, lean into it, listen to it,
Speaker 1: figure out what wisdom has And it's more about armoring
Speaker 1: up their depression or unburdening it from whatever it's carrying
Speaker 1: so that it can kind of play nicely with the
Speaker 1: rest of the person's internal system rather than banishing it further.
Speaker 1: So that's kind of how that cure fixed thing can be. Yeah,
Speaker 1: not always helpful, Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2: And it's hard, right because we're in this kind of
Speaker 2: system that can be very deficit based, right, So it's like,
Speaker 2: how do we find the compassion and how do we
Speaker 2: encourage people? Because I can imagine that can feel quite
Speaker 2: disempowering when someone's like, oh, what do you mean? Because
Speaker 2: is essentially like, is depression something? And again I know
Speaker 2: I'm using deficit based language, but is it something that
Speaker 2: is going to be with you forever? Or can it
Speaker 2: go away?
Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, it can definitely go away. Okay, it's not
Speaker 1: like a life sentence. It's something that, yeah, they can
Speaker 1: be cured and not just and not just people can
Speaker 1: get better and get back to normal. I don't want
Speaker 1: to oversell what psychologists can do, but I do believe
Speaker 1: that when people do their own work, they could be
Speaker 1: better than normal. Like you can motivate people to do
Speaker 1: great things. They can understand themselves better, be more self compassionate,
Speaker 1: understand the world differently. I really think that, yeah, you
Speaker 1: cannot just get better, but you can get like better better.
Speaker 2: That's really good to know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's hard. I'm not saying it's.
Speaker 3: Like easy, like totally six sessions and like yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: totally yeah, And so it can be everyone's journey is
Speaker 3: going to look different, So it's hard to kind of
Speaker 3: prescribe that it's going to look a certain way, right, Yeah.
Speaker 1: Absolutely.
Speaker 2: It actually reminds me of an episode we've done previously,
Speaker 2: and we actually talked about, you know, post traumatic stress,
Speaker 2: but then we also talked about post traumatic growth and
Speaker 2: just how like so much can come from it as well.
Speaker 2: So I really love like just your framing around that
Speaker 2: just kind of again, it doesn't affect how hard it is,
Speaker 2: but it also kind of instills a bit of hope
Speaker 2: around what could come from it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm constantly balancing hope and also their pain, because
Speaker 1: if you're too hopeful and too jolly and pollyannering the
Speaker 1: kind of like come on, let's pick you up, that
Speaker 1: can feel really invalidating. But at the same time, yeah,
Speaker 1: you really want to I want to hold that like
Speaker 1: this really could be different. That is not everyone's experience.
Speaker 1: There are definitely people out there that had this chronic,
Speaker 1: lifelong depression that never lifts don't think that that's the
Speaker 1: case for everyone or even most. You know, it might
Speaker 1: be something that comes and goes, but it's yeah, it's
Speaker 1: not this intractable disease that you have to manage forever. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Wow, that's really good to know. More of my conversation
Speaker 2: with Julie after the break. It's interesting even you're talking
Speaker 2: about something that comes and goes. It gets me thinking
Speaker 2: about why might some people feel better for a while,
Speaker 2: but then they feel like they kind of slip back
Speaker 2: into depression, Like why does that happen?
Speaker 1: It could be that, like the recovery was something that
Speaker 1: was sort of short lived, and from a parts based perspective,
Speaker 1: you could say that like a protective part of the
Speaker 1: self just sort of another one got created and jumped
Speaker 1: out and sort of came to save the day. But
Speaker 1: if the underlying stuff is still there, then that poor
Speaker 1: new protective part that comes out, Let's say it's maybe
Speaker 1: a new cognitive restructuring exercise that really helps them to
Speaker 1: think positively, and it's very logical, and it's you know,
Speaker 1: they've got a really good internal positive voice. It's not
Speaker 1: that that's bad or that they shouldn't have that, but
Speaker 1: it might only it might have a shelf life, it
Speaker 1: might only be able to do so much, and that
Speaker 1: whatever sort of driving that underlying depression could still be
Speaker 1: there and therefore, you know, it comes up later. That's
Speaker 1: not always the case, if like, sometimes it's genuinely something
Speaker 1: really shit happens in life, like really and it's really
Speaker 1: heartbreaking when that happens in the therapy room, right Like
Speaker 1: these great people who are just trying to live their
Speaker 1: lives and something awful happens to them. It's probably quite
Speaker 1: natural to have a relapsed depression, like if you lose
Speaker 1: a job, or you know, something tragic happens, they lose
Speaker 1: someone in their life, what else. Sometimes it's maybe not
Speaker 1: a really horrible negative thing that's happened to them, but
Speaker 1: just the situation, a new environment that they're in starts
Speaker 1: to trigger some other part of the self that they
Speaker 1: didn't know was there. So maybe they start a new
Speaker 1: job and they've got a boss who's just really micromanagy
Speaker 1: and sort of you know, always looks over their work,
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, they start to feel like
Speaker 1: a failure again. And then it's snowballs, and then they
Speaker 1: start to feel like they're getting everything wrong and that
Speaker 1: nobody trusts them. That's an example of how an environment
Speaker 1: can start to trigger all these kind of ways of
Speaker 1: being and parts of self that they might not have
Speaker 1: been there at their last job when they were trusted
Speaker 1: very well and you know they could just do their
Speaker 1: own thing, have their freedom.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So it can be like a lot, so many
Speaker 1: little things can kind of come in. It doesn't have
Speaker 1: to be that you finish therapy last time. I like
Speaker 1: to think of if you have depression, try to think
Speaker 1: of therapy like something that you start and then you
Speaker 1: take a break, and then something else will come up later,
Speaker 1: and then you'll start again, and then you'll look into
Speaker 1: another piece of it, and then you might stop for
Speaker 1: a bit, and then you might be in a completely
Speaker 1: different life stage. You're in your fifties and you're hitting
Speaker 1: your career, and then well it's back. Then you go
Speaker 1: back and then you see what else is there. It's
Speaker 1: a journey. It's a lovely journey. No, it doesn't have
Speaker 1: to be something that you like finish and tick, you
Speaker 1: get a star and then you wander away.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Happy. That doesn't mean that can't be like a joyful,
Speaker 1: happy experience. Continuing to work on your depression throughout your life.
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, definitely. So for anyone that's tuning in right
Speaker 2: and they might be feeling a little overwhelmed around they
Speaker 2: feel like they may have depression, they're not too sure
Speaker 2: what would be a realistic first step for them, Like,
Speaker 2: what would you advise?
Speaker 1: I mean, if you feel like something's off and you're
Speaker 1: really sad and you feel like your life is crap
Speaker 1: and you feel terrible about yourself, I'm on the side
Speaker 1: of not caution, like as in, I don't think I'll
Speaker 1: wait to see how it goes. Start having a chat
Speaker 1: with your GP. You can even start with something like
Speaker 1: we don't have to fix this now, but I'd like
Speaker 1: to flag that I've been feeling really low and I've
Speaker 1: got all this stuff going on, but I kind of
Speaker 1: feel like I'm not myself, And I'd just be thinking,
Speaker 1: like if you're even thinking, oh am I depressed, Like
Speaker 1: it's a good chance you need help. You don't have
Speaker 1: to wait until you meet like the full diagnostic craky,
Speaker 1: Like you can just start the conversation, start thinking about
Speaker 1: what's driving this, you know Google, some therapists take some
Speaker 1: small steps. Yeah, definitely, your instincts are right. You're probably
Speaker 1: not very happy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so true though when you talk about instincts,
Speaker 2: like our body already knows. It's just we like our
Speaker 2: mind and all the thoughts and our partners are just
Speaker 2: catching up with the actual moment.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a good reminder as well. If you're not
Speaker 1: really sure what's going on, you can check in with
Speaker 1: your body too. If you're having I don't know, like hives,
Speaker 1: if you're sleeping all the time, if you get like
Speaker 1: a raging cults or outbreak and that's not normal for you.
Speaker 1: You know, even if your digestive health is like looking
Speaker 1: really wonky, it just it just that's that can be
Speaker 1: the body kind of going hey, like something's not right here.
Speaker 1: I couldn't tell you what physical manifestations you'll see as
Speaker 1: a result of depression as such, but it's usually relating
Speaker 1: to heaviness, some kind of weight. That's a general theme.
Speaker 2: Heaviness weight as in like a feeling.
Speaker 1: Oh sorry, feeling like a feel really heavy, feeling like
Speaker 1: everything's really hard.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And then also like I guess that kind of comes
Speaker 2: back to what you were saying before around also just
Speaker 2: taking a bird's eye view around how you're showing up
Speaker 2: in your daily life as well, right, Yeah, yeah, I'm.
Speaker 1: Trying to get some perspective and think is this normal
Speaker 1: for me? Have I been here before? Those sorts of things.
Speaker 2: That can really help when it comes to when you
Speaker 2: work with clients in the therapy room, and I know
Speaker 2: you've kind of already spoken a little bit about how
Speaker 2: it is a journey, how do you or even like
Speaker 2: people tuning in who might be feeling a bit unmotivated
Speaker 2: or just a bit disempowered about the progress they're making
Speaker 2: in the clinic, or just they feel like therapy was
Speaker 2: working now it's not working, Like, what would you want
Speaker 2: to say to them?
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a really good question. I would say, once again,
Speaker 1: trust your gut, right, Like, if you're kind of like
Speaker 1: something's kind of a bit stuck here, Like, you know,
Speaker 1: I keep going to sessions and we talk about stuff,
Speaker 1: but it's not really changing much. It doesn't mean that
Speaker 1: you're correct and you should fire your therapist immediately, although
Speaker 1: that is an option, that is an option, But so
Speaker 1: you want to be checking in with first, like is
Speaker 1: this just a really frustratingly slow process and you are
Speaker 1: making progress, but it's just really slow and you're really
Speaker 1: annoyed and you want it to be faster, and I'd
Speaker 1: be inquiring what part of you would like this to
Speaker 1: be done. What part of you is like the overperformer
Speaker 1: that tries to do everything really quickly, that fixes things,
Speaker 1: that is efficient, that gets stuff done, and then they're
Speaker 1: now trying to like apply their skill set to treating depression.
Speaker 1: It's often that needs a gentler touch. So there's that
Speaker 1: can be something that's going on, but I would absolutely
Speaker 1: encourage people to bring it up with their therapist. A
Speaker 1: good therapist will really welcome this sort of discussion. Not
Speaker 1: everyone's perfect. If they get defensive, though, I'd be a
Speaker 1: bit like, you know, like we can see someone else.
Speaker 1: You don't have to you don't have to show them
Speaker 1: any loyalty, right, They're there for you, and if the click,
Speaker 1: if it's not working and something feels a bit off,
Speaker 1: you can absolutely just say, you know, take a break
Speaker 1: and maybe look for someone else. We really, I don't
Speaker 1: think we take it personally like we get it. We're
Speaker 1: not the person for everyone. I think they would welcome
Speaker 1: a conversation like, hey, so you know, we've seen each
Speaker 1: other for quite a while and I'm just getting this
Speaker 1: sense that like, something's not moving. You know, my goal's wrong?
Speaker 1: Is it that we need to kind of change tack?
Speaker 1: Do we both need to take a step back and
Speaker 1: kind of go like what do we want to achieve here?
Speaker 1: You can also ask as well, like is there any
Speaker 1: any blocks that you can see that like I can't see?
Speaker 1: That kind of invites them to actually tell you it's like, oh, yes,
Speaker 1: every time we start to talk about something stressful, you
Speaker 1: start to talk about something else. Oh right, that's why
Speaker 1: I'm not getting better.
Speaker 2: Oh it's my resistance.
Speaker 1: Yeah, hello and welcome. Yeah. So I think that's what
Speaker 1: I would encourage people to do if there was kind
Speaker 1: of a bit like oh, this isn't really going anywhere. Yeah, yeah, have.
Speaker 2: The honest conversation and collaboration.
Speaker 1: Right, Well, it's about collaboration. It doesn't have to be
Speaker 1: this huge confrontation. You're not accusing them of not doing
Speaker 1: the right thing. You're just kind of saying what you're
Speaker 1: noticing and trying to figure out if there's a path
Speaker 1: ahead that, like do we need to kind of switch
Speaker 1: it up a bit?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know.
Speaker 2: We spoke about antidepressants before, and something I'm curious about
Speaker 2: is when should we consider something like antidepressants or like
Speaker 2: do we even need medication?
Speaker 1: You don't have to treat depression with medication, So if
Speaker 1: you don't want to, you don't have to. There's antidepressants
Speaker 1: or a class of medication. There's lots of different types
Speaker 1: within that broad umbrella term, but SS all right, selective
Speaker 1: serotonin reuptake inhibitors. They are the most commonly prescribed, and
Speaker 1: your GP can prescribe an antidepressant. You don't have to
Speaker 1: go to a psychiatrist, and you know that's.
Speaker 2: Expensive and essentially, just so I'm understanding too, So taking
Speaker 2: the antidepressants is.
Speaker 1: Like is it.
Speaker 2: Bringing up your serotonin levels? Is that what's going on
Speaker 2: in the brain?
Speaker 1: Or it makes more serotonin available in the brain. That's
Speaker 1: a really rudimentary sort of explanation. And serotonin is good
Speaker 1: at least, like the right amount of serotonin is good.
Speaker 1: How it works is that it blocks the synapses that
Speaker 1: usually reuptake your serotonin from the synapse, and in doing
Speaker 1: that and blocking the reuptake, it means that there's more
Speaker 1: available and that can help your brain to form new
Speaker 1: branches and have more serotonin available to create that. I mean,
Speaker 1: people really just describe it like a bit of a
Speaker 1: feeling of like it's okay, love, Everything's going to be
Speaker 1: all right, don't worry about that. Yeah. So yeah, it
Speaker 1: blocks the serotonin receptor, so there's more serotonin available that
Speaker 1: it's not being reuptaped by synapse.
Speaker 2: Okay, Just for anyone's tuning in who might be thinking
Speaker 2: about someone in their life that might be going through
Speaker 2: depression right now? How can you support someone without taking
Speaker 2: on too much responsibility for their well being?
Speaker 1: Ah? Yeah, that one's like I do really feel for
Speaker 1: people who are caring for someone who is depressed because, ah,
Speaker 1: like you, particularly if it's someone close to you, you
Speaker 1: experience the effects of their depression right, Like you might
Speaker 1: get their irritability or you you get like half the
Speaker 1: person that you normally get, right, and all you want
Speaker 1: is to have that person back. And depression is it
Speaker 1: is an illness which people being not proactive at all.
Speaker 1: So I just want to say it's really hard as
Speaker 1: someone who is caring for someone with depression, try to
Speaker 1: look after yourself and understand that this could this could
Speaker 1: be a longer road than you want it to be.
Speaker 1: Like you want them just to kind of go get help,
Speaker 1: get better, goodbye. But it's often not like that. I
Speaker 1: think the reason why depression becomes so self perpetuating is
Speaker 1: the person actually hates their depression too, And then if
Speaker 1: someone else jumps in and like piles on and goes, yeah,
Speaker 1: I hate that you feel so low or you know,
Speaker 1: you feel so lazy you don't want to do anything,
Speaker 1: it can just end up making it so much worse
Speaker 1: for that person. It's so hard to do. But for
Speaker 1: people that are caring for a love someone who is
Speaker 1: really depressed, looking after yourself obviously, if you're trying to
Speaker 1: fix another person, I'd probably be going, hey, like, maybe
Speaker 1: you want to go and do your own work, because
Speaker 1: there's something happening there. If you need someone to get
Speaker 1: better so badly, there's nothing wrong with you. But like
Speaker 1: it's like working on yourself and seeing a psychologist yourself
Speaker 1: can be probably the most helpful thing you can do
Speaker 1: for the person who's depressed, right, Yeah, true, But also
Speaker 1: you know they try to come from a place of
Speaker 1: like compassion and curiosity with their sadness. Try to rather
Speaker 1: than just trying to fix it, just see if you
Speaker 1: can get to know more about it. Ask him a
Speaker 1: few questions. What's that like? Because that helps someone feel
Speaker 1: not so.
Speaker 2: Lonely, you know, yeah, definitely, yeah, yeah, Well, thank you
Speaker 2: so much for this conversation and shining a light on
Speaker 2: a topic that can often be hidden in the shadows
Speaker 2: and not want to talk about. And I think what
Speaker 2: I really heard from today's episode is that depression is
Speaker 2: going to look different for everyone, and it's really about
Speaker 2: tuning into your body. You know what you need to do,
Speaker 2: get the support you need. We've got we live in
Speaker 2: an incredible country like Australia where we have acts to
Speaker 2: things like that, So breaking down the stigma you're not
Speaker 2: in it alone and get what you need, get what
Speaker 2: you need.
Speaker 1: I acknowledge it cost money sometimes to go see someone.
Speaker 1: That's a thing, but it's a worthwhile investment.
Speaker 2: I'd say I always love a good Mythbusking episode. Thanks
Speaker 2: Julie for sharing your insights with us when it comes
Speaker 2: to the topic on depression. You can find links to
Speaker 2: her work in our show notes. If there's a topic
Speaker 2: you would like us to discuss, or I guess you
Speaker 2: think would be a great fit for this podcast, please
Speaker 2: get in touch with us at podcast at momamea dot
Speaker 2: com dot au or sliding to our dms on Instagram
Speaker 2: at but Are You Happy? Podcast? Also, if you haven't already,
Speaker 2: would love a review on Apple or Spotify. It really
Speaker 2: helps the show to grow, and of course, if there's
Speaker 2: anything in today's episode that has brought up difficult feelings
Speaker 2: for you, organizations like Lifeline and Beyond Blue are always
Speaker 2: there for free and confidential support. Thanks for listening. You
Speaker 2: need again next Saturday for another episode of but Are
Speaker 2: You Happy. Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the
Speaker 2: land and waters on which this podcast was recorded