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Speaker 1: When police raided the home of forty eight year old

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Speaker 1: Victorian man Gary Francis Newman in March two thousand and seven,

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Speaker 1: they found him in his launde room chatting to a

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Speaker 1: fourteen year old girl online.

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Speaker 2: Now that fourteen year.

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Speaker 1: Old girl, who lived in Perth, all the way on

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Speaker 1: the other side of the country to Newman, didn't realize

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Speaker 1: she was speaking to an older man, nor did she

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Speaker 1: realize she was chatting to a murderer. For eighteen months,

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Speaker 1: Newman had been posing online as a teenage boy named Brandon.

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Speaker 1: Brandon played guitar and was the poster boy for every.

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Speaker 2: Teenage girl's fantasy.

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Speaker 1: He was broody, gorgeous, an American boy who was forced

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Speaker 1: to move to Melbourne, Australia with his family from Texas.

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Speaker 1: Brandon spoke like a teenager, looked like a teenager, but

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Speaker 1: in reality, he was a carefully crafted identity, one of

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Speaker 1: nearly two hundred Police When Uncover, created by a nearly

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Speaker 1: fifty year old man who used that identity to lure

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Speaker 1: young girls into his wad web. One of those girls

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Speaker 1: was Carly Ryan. Brandon had been having conversations with one

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Speaker 1: of Carl's friends, so when she joined the chat. She

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Speaker 1: had no reason to suspect that he wasn't who he

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Speaker 1: said he was.

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Speaker 2: After all, her friend had.

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Speaker 1: Essentially vouched for him, she already knew him. The flirtatious

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Speaker 1: Brandon told Carlie all the things a young girl would

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Speaker 1: want to hear, and over the course of their online relationship,

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Speaker 1: Carly asked her new guitar playing friend to come visit

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Speaker 1: her at her home in the Outlaide Hills in South Australia.

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Speaker 1: She was about to turn fifteen and she wanted to

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Speaker 1: invite him to her birthday party on the January twenty

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Speaker 1: sixth Long weekend, but Brandon couldn't make it. He told

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Speaker 1: Carli that he was flying back to the US for

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Speaker 1: a quick visit, but said his dad, Shane, was keen

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Speaker 1: to meet her. Could he come instead. Carli asked her mum, Sonya,

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Speaker 1: if she could add Shane to.

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Speaker 2: The invite list.

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Speaker 1: Despite feeling like it was a bit strange, Sonya relented,

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Speaker 1: after all, she'd met with most of her daughter's friend's parents.

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Speaker 2: Newman wasted no.

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Speaker 1: Time after arriving at Carly's home in Sterling, Sonia remembers

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Speaker 1: feeling like he was a creep from the outset Trusting

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Speaker 1: her instinct, she demanded he leave, emailing him afterwards telling

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Speaker 1: him never to come near her daughter ever again, warning

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Speaker 1: him if he did, she would call police.

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Speaker 2: Sonia didn't know then, but Newman.

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Speaker 1: Had bought her fifteen year old daughter items of sexually

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Speaker 1: provocative clothing, and he was angry that he didn't get

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Speaker 1: to live out his twisted fantasy. He'd come so close

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Speaker 1: to getting what he'd been working eighteen months to secure,

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Speaker 1: so he returned home to Victoria, where he hatched another

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Speaker 1: plan to capture his young victim. I'm Claire Murphy and

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Speaker 1: This is True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring the world's

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Speaker 1: most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know

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Speaker 1: the most about them. What happened to carl Ryan next

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Speaker 1: is every Parent's worst Nightmare, and used his online persona

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Speaker 1: of Shane to convince Carli to meet with him in

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Speaker 1: the South Australian coastal town of Port Elliott, nearly an

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Speaker 1: hour and a half from her home. Now, Carlie knew

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Speaker 1: her mum wouldn't agree to it, so she told Sonya

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Speaker 1: she was going to a friends for a sleepover. Instead,

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Speaker 1: she traveled the more than eighty kilometers to meet up

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Speaker 1: with Newman, who took her to the local beach, Horshoe Bay.

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Speaker 1: They sat in the dunes away from any prying eyes.

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Speaker 1: Newman giving Carlie a joint to smoke. Before getting his

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Speaker 1: revenge on the fifteen year old for forcing him from

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Speaker 1: her birthday party. He took a rock and smashed it

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Speaker 1: into Carli's head. He then pushed her face into the

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Speaker 1: sand to suffocate her. After he was sure she was dead,

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Speaker 1: he began to walk away, but just as he did,

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Speaker 1: Carli coughed. It would be the last thing she did

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Speaker 1: before she was dragged into the ocean and drowned in

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Speaker 1: the shallows. Her body found floating face down when Newman

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Speaker 1: had left her. What happened after Sonya Ryan was told

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Speaker 1: her daughter had been murdered is a mixture of frustration

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Speaker 1: that a man so clearly guilty would defend himself to

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Speaker 1: the very end, but also of the resilience of a

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Speaker 1: mother who will never allow her daughter's death to be

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Speaker 1: for nothing. Sonya Ryan joins us. Now, Sonya, thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for spending some time with us here on

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Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations.

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Speaker 2: Today, we are going to talk quite a bit about your.

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Speaker 1: Life's work since the passing of your daughter back in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and seven. But I guess where we wanted

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Speaker 1: to start today is what happened to you is everybody's

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Speaker 1: worst nightmare, every parent's worst nightmare.

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Speaker 2: I am the mother of a ten year old daughter.

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Speaker 1: Even sometimes reading back Calli's story makes me feel anxious

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Speaker 1: and unsettled. And I wonder how you felt in that

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Speaker 1: moment when police told you what happened to Kari, because

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Speaker 1: I can only imagine I would have just exploded into

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Speaker 1: a thousand pieces, never.

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Speaker 2: To be put back together. How did you How did

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Speaker 2: you react in that moment?

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Speaker 3: Well? I think initially, you know, we were looking for

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Speaker 3: her because she hadn't turned up at her friend's house

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Speaker 3: as she was supposed to, and so we were in

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Speaker 3: this kind of panic, you know, And when police started

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Speaker 3: rolling in the back door, I just thought, this seems

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Speaker 3: a bit strange. And even when, you know, as I

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Speaker 3: started coming in the door, I saw one officer had

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Speaker 3: a tear running down his face, and in that moment,

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Speaker 3: I was like, what earth is going on? You know

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Speaker 3: this you can imagine, you know, we're just at the

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Speaker 3: beginning of the Internet. We're you know, just really connecting

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Speaker 3: smartphones are just coming in. So you know, this crime

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Speaker 3: type had never happened in Australia before, so there's no

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Speaker 3: way to prepare for hearing that kind of news from

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Speaker 3: a police officer. So detectives walked in and said that

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Speaker 3: they'd found the body of a girl matching the description

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Speaker 3: of Carli, and I just remember thinking, what do you

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Speaker 3: mean a body?

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Speaker 4: And so.

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Speaker 3: You know, you just go into shock, You go into

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Speaker 3: incredible shock, and every part of you, I guess, really

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Speaker 3: dissolves on the spot.

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Speaker 4: You know, you're conditioning.

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Speaker 3: Layers of yourself just kind of fall away, and you're

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Speaker 3: left in a very raw state. And it was kind

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Speaker 3: of stepping into.

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Speaker 4: A horror movie.

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Speaker 3: That's probably the best way I can describe it, because

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Speaker 3: nothing prepares you for hearing those words. But then people

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Speaker 3: forget that's just the very beginning. From that point, it's identification. It's,

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Speaker 3: you know, the worst possible experience that I would hope

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Speaker 3: nobody has to go through. You know, how I'm still

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Speaker 3: sitting here today talking to you is you know, beyond

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Speaker 3: a blessing. I mean, I just I really, you know,

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Speaker 3: all I can equate it to is a power of love.

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Speaker 3: You know, that connection between myself and my daughter and

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Speaker 3: really sitting with that thought of what would she want

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Speaker 3: me to do? You know, what do I do in

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Speaker 3: this situation? And it's really the minute by minute of existence,

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Speaker 3: because to go any further than that, the mind can't

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Speaker 3: comprehend it. So you know, the body goes into extraordinary shock,

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Speaker 3: terrible trauma, and you kind of just existing in this

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Speaker 3: no man's land. That's really the best way that I

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Speaker 3: can describe it to listeners.

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Speaker 4: It's kind of you enter this void.

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Speaker 3: And it's almost as if time stops and you're just

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Speaker 3: kind of watching the world spin around you, and time

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Speaker 3: keeps on ticking, but you're just in this very disassociated,

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Speaker 3: strange place and all the information that's coming at you

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Speaker 3: from detectives and then we have the media, you know,

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Speaker 3: banging on the door at six o'clock in the morning

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Speaker 3: every morning and not being able to open the curtains

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Speaker 3: at home because of course, Carli was the first girl

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Speaker 3: murdered by online predator in Australia. This was you know,

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Speaker 3: a shock to the nation and so everybody wanted to

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Speaker 3: report about it. But of course this was not a story.

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Speaker 3: This is what I was living, and you know, the fallout,

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Speaker 3: you know, beyond that moment, the tidal wave of trauma

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Speaker 3: and the continuation of additional trauma was something that will

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Speaker 3: never leave me. It was, you know, beyond horrifying. Didn't

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Speaker 3: only lose my daughter, which I adored, but you know,

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Speaker 3: her brother lost a sister, her family lost her, her

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Speaker 3: friends lost her. You know, the fallout from losing her

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Speaker 3: was horrific, and just the circumstances in which it happened

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Speaker 3: were you know, really, I just still today don't have

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Speaker 3: the words for it, and I still in the work

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Speaker 3: that I do, just sometimes can't believe that this is

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Speaker 3: my reality. And you know, again, I just have to

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Speaker 3: focus my whole attention to really the work, the end

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Speaker 3: focus and again coming back to thinking about what Carlie

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Speaker 3: would want me to do, and that is to make

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Speaker 3: sure that what happened to her doesn't happen to another

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Speaker 3: innocent child, for no other parent to have to stand

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Speaker 3: behind a curtain and identify their beaten child. You know,

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Speaker 3: it's it's a horrible thing to speak about, but this

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Speaker 3: is a reality of what this crime looks like, you know,

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Speaker 3: And it's not only myself, but it's the detectives working

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Speaker 3: on cases like this that suffer that have to, you know,

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Speaker 3: view terror bytes of child abuse material. The investigations I

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Speaker 3: do are just awful, you know. So in general, you know,

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Speaker 3: it's a topic that most people just don't even want to,

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Speaker 3: you know, talk about least we'll hear about. But you know,

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Speaker 3: I've made up my mission to talk, to bring this

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Speaker 3: subject to light, and to bring it into the light,

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Speaker 3: so to speak, so that we can, you know, prevent

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Speaker 3: this from happening to other kids. But essentially, the trauma

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Speaker 3: was really bad, and I think it took me about

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Speaker 3: four years to even come to any kind of acceptance

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Speaker 3: that that had even happened. And thankfully I was shipped

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Speaker 3: off to a Buddhist temple in France in the mountains

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Speaker 3: and met with the author of the Tibetan Book of

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Speaker 3: Living and Dying and the Dalai Lama and his team.

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Speaker 3: And I'm not particularly religious, but that really helped me

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Speaker 3: because there was no distractions and I had.

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Speaker 4: To sit with the pain of it all.

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Speaker 3: And you know, I think listeners could probably relate to

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Speaker 3: when we feel pain, what do we do? We look

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Speaker 3: for distraction, right, we look for anything to do but

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Speaker 3: feel it. But that is the worst thing you can do,

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Speaker 3: you know, I really had to sit with the pain.

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Speaker 3: I had to sit with it and feel it and

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Speaker 3: let it run its course. And honestly, I truly believe

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Speaker 3: that because I did that and didn't self medicate, didn't

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Speaker 3: you know, I didn't drink alcohol. I just kept myself

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Speaker 3: really clear. I think that, honestly, that's why I'm alive today, because,

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Speaker 3: you know it even though it was the most horrendous

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Speaker 3: journey and it was just you know, unbelievable waves of

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Speaker 3: terror and pain and just that separation anxiety from her,

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Speaker 3: you know, the thought of never seeing her again, it

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Speaker 3: was just oh my gosh, it was just you know,

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Speaker 3: how do you put into words, you know, And again,

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Speaker 3: I just I hope that anyone listening never has to

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Speaker 3: go through anything like it. But you know, coming away

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Speaker 3: from that retreat in France gave me the ability to

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Speaker 3: be able to ground, to be able to be with myself,

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Speaker 3: to be able to transform the trauma into a way

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Speaker 3: of being able to benefit others and help others. It

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Speaker 3: gave me the ability to learn meditation, which again saved

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Speaker 3: me being able to be present, to be in the

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Speaker 3: moment to you know, again sit with that pain, and

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Speaker 3: you know, it just gave me this real tunnel vision

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Speaker 3: focus to do everything I could to change the online

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Speaker 3: safety landscape in Australia and beyond.

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Speaker 1: Well, we'll talk about that in a second, because the

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Speaker 1: Calie Ryan Foundation has achieved some remarkable things. But I'm

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Speaker 1: so interested to know how you have viewed in the

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Speaker 1: time since your daughter passed, because, as you mentioned, this

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Speaker 1: had never happened before. There was no precedent to set

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Speaker 1: this by. And you know, we're talking about the time

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Speaker 1: of MySpace, you know, where we hadn't really gotten the

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Speaker 1: platforms that we now all use today. But over these

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Speaker 1: years you would have seen these social media platforms and

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Speaker 1: others become more and more and more a part of

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Speaker 1: young people's lives, and see how they are more welcomed

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Speaker 1: into children's homes, into their bedrooms. Like, how do you

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Speaker 1: view that creep of these social media platforms in to

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Speaker 1: young people's lives when you know how dangerous it was

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Speaker 1: for your daughter to be exposed to them.

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Speaker 3: Watching you know, smartphones really evolve and connectivity evolve, and

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Speaker 3: apps evolve. It was really you know, trying to find

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Speaker 3: solution and balance for the community. So you know, how

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Speaker 3: can the community use social media or use the Internet

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Speaker 3: in a positive way, and how can they do so

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Speaker 3: whilst putting a shield of protection around their children. You know,

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Speaker 3: the Internet wasn't going anywhere. It kind of took off,

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Speaker 3: and unfortunately safeguards weren't put in place, you know. And

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Speaker 3: the reality is at big Tech, their focus is profit

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Speaker 3: and privacy and they want young people to be on

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Speaker 3: their sites.

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Speaker 4: You know, they want them to.

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Speaker 3: Be endlessly scrolling. You know, they developed them to be addicted.

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Speaker 3: And so we're really up against it as a nation,

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Speaker 3: as a global nation, to be able to manage these

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Speaker 3: you know, little devices that our kids have got in

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Speaker 3: their pockets and have access to everyone and everything at

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Speaker 3: their fingertips, and I think just people underestimate, you know,

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Speaker 3: the reach they have and also the ability for people

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Speaker 3: with the wrong intentions to access their children. So, you know,

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Speaker 3: I attended the very first Online Safety Summer in Canberra

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Speaker 3: in twenty ten. I advised on the legislation to open

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Speaker 3: the Australian Officer of the e Safety Commissioner and slowly

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Speaker 3: we started to see online safety education sort of an

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Speaker 3: awareness sort of spread out through the community. And the

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Speaker 3: very first thing I wanted to do when I incorporated

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Speaker 3: Colige's legacy, the Carlie Ryan Foundation, was to create an

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Speaker 3: education program for schools and that was called Project Connect.

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Speaker 3: And so that was really important to me to get

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Speaker 3: in front of kids, but also to not terrify them,

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Speaker 3: because you know, we've got to remember, it's not the

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Speaker 3: Internet that's bad. It's not potentially you know, it's not

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Speaker 3: some of these services that are particularly bad. It's people

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Speaker 3: using them. It's the users that are using them to

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Speaker 3: harm or using them to take advantage or to financially

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Speaker 3: sex store children. It's the people at the other end

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Speaker 3: that we have to be wary of. And so it

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Speaker 3: was about, okay, well this is what happened to my daughter,

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Speaker 3: and you know, we want you to have positive experiences,

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Speaker 3: and we want to build your protective behaviors, and we

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Speaker 3: want to build your resilience so that we can reduce

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Speaker 3: the risk of this happening to you.

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Speaker 4: Because if you're.

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Speaker 3: Aware of how criminals, you know, are accessing your information

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Speaker 3: and accessing you, and the tools they use and the

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Speaker 3: techniques they use, if you're aware of these things, then

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Speaker 3: you're less likely to become a victim. And if you

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Speaker 3: do become a victim, you do see or hearing anything online,

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Speaker 3: then you know where to go, you know where to report,

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Speaker 3: you know who to come to. You can come to

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Speaker 3: the Carlie Ryan Foundation, Officer of the Safety Commissioner, the ACE,

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Speaker 3: the Surrunding Centered Account to Child Expectation. So we've come

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Speaker 3: a long way since I've lost Carly, but it has

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Speaker 3: been a very rigorous journey of advising the government on

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Speaker 3: a national and state level, advising on legislation and really

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Speaker 3: doing what I can to you know, I guess put

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Speaker 3: up some kind of roadblock so that those predators and

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Speaker 3: criminals are less likely to be able to reach an

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Speaker 3: innocent child. You know, our kids are so vulnerable, and

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Speaker 3: you know their priority is to be a part of something,

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Speaker 3: you know, to feel wanted, needed, to be a part

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Speaker 3: of a community, you know, to feel that they fit

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Speaker 3: in and be part of that community. So you know,

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Speaker 3: that's their focus, and it can particularly make them vulnerable

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Speaker 3: if they have low self esteem or if they have

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Speaker 3: any kind of issues, then they're more likely to you know,

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Speaker 3: get online and ask people for opinions or you know,

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Speaker 3: they may be more vulnerable to that, you know, unwanted contact,

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Speaker 3: and that's really a tool that criminals use to get in,

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Speaker 3: they look for vulnerabilities of a young person and try

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Speaker 3: and fill that gap, try and feel those vulnerabilities. And

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Speaker 3: so you know, this is I guess, just a very

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Speaker 3: small way of you know, having the community sort of

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Speaker 3: understand how criminals operate, which then gives them the ability

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Speaker 3: to put up those protective barriers. So the Project Connect

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Speaker 3: education program has been great. It runs nationally or a

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Speaker 3: trusted safety education provider, and you know, that's been really successful.

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Speaker 3: But also just creating awareness. You know, people don't want

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Speaker 3: to talk about this crime type when it comes to

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Speaker 3: child abuse or online child exploitation. People just think, oh,

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Speaker 3: you know, that doesn't happen in our community, That won't

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Speaker 3: happen to my child. This is a horrible subject. I

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Speaker 3: don't want to talk about it. I mean, before the

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Speaker 3: Internet came along and children were exploited offline, it still

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Speaker 3: wasn't spoken about in the community. You know, It's been

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Speaker 3: an issue for centuries. And so really it's people like

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Speaker 3: me who are really shining a spotlight on this crime

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Speaker 3: type and asking the community to face this and for

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Speaker 3: us to come together to fight it, you know, and

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Speaker 3: do what we can to protect our kids. Because all

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Speaker 3: children have the right to get online and have a

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Speaker 3: positive experience and use services for you know, connection for education,

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Speaker 3: for you know, being able to access really great mental

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Speaker 3: health services or whatever it may be without having to

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Speaker 3: be consented that they're going to get a d M

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Speaker 3: from some creep or you know, being asked for nudes

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Speaker 3: you know, on an app or a messaging app or whatever.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to True Crime Conversations with me, Claire Murphy.

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Speaker 1: I'm speaking with Sonya Ryan, the founder and CEO of

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Speaker 1: the Carly Ryan Foundation, established in memory of her daughter Carlie,

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Speaker 1: who was tragically murdered by an online predator in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and seven.

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Speaker 2: Up next, Sonia tells us.

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Speaker 1: Whether she suspected that the person who killed her daughter

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Speaker 1: was Gary Francis Newman. Let me go back to two

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Speaker 1: thousand and seven, after you said the police had told

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Speaker 1: you that they had discovered a body that matches Carlie's description,

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Speaker 1: and you've come to the realization that your daughter has

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Speaker 1: actually been murdered. Did you suspect the man that had

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Speaker 1: been in your home you'd met Carl's killer in the

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Speaker 1: weeks beforehand. Did you have your suspicions back then that

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Speaker 1: he might be responsible.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, because I kicked him out of our home.

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Speaker 3: When when I realized that something wasn't quite right, did

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Speaker 3: my mind go to a murderer. Absolutely not. My mind

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Speaker 3: went to somebody's creepy dad who was acting a bit strange.

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Speaker 3: I mean, our whole family was in the home, you know,

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Speaker 3: so it wasn't just myself and Carli. It was coming

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Speaker 3: up to her birthday and everybody was there, and you know,

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Speaker 3: these types of people put on a facade that I

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Speaker 3: just saw. I don't know if you'd call it a

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Speaker 3: mom's instinct. There was just something not right a couple

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Speaker 3: of times, the way that he looked at her. He

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Speaker 3: didn't particularly sit near her or anything like that, but

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Speaker 3: it was just something that wasn't right. And of course

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Speaker 3: we now know that he was operating the profile of

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Speaker 3: the so called teenage boy which he claimed to be

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Speaker 3: his son, which was, you know, obviously not true. And

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Speaker 3: when Carly wouldn't take the call because of all her

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Speaker 3: friends were there, a family was there for her birthday,

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Speaker 3: he got really mad and that's when I, you know,

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Speaker 3: basically said you need to leave this house. I guess

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Speaker 3: as soon as police came in, there was nobody else

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Speaker 3: I mean, Carly, we had a very close, you know,

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Speaker 3: family community. She had loads of friends. You know, we

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Speaker 3: lived in Adelaide Hills, a really beautiful community.

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Speaker 4: There was no one else.

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Speaker 3: It was the only person I could think of when

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Speaker 3: I spoke to police, she has been speaking to these

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Speaker 3: people online, you know, and then gave them all the

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Speaker 3: details because of course, when he came to the property,

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Speaker 3: I asked for identification and I took his registration number. Thankfully,

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Speaker 3: even though the identification he gave me was fake and

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Speaker 3: he was wearing a fake security guard shirt. Everything about

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Speaker 3: him was fake, I still took down those details and

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Speaker 3: just you know, I just thought I was meeting one

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Speaker 3: of her friend's dads, you know, And looking back now,

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Speaker 3: I think, gosh, you know, and a lot of people,

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Speaker 3: I mean would probably think, well, why would you let

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Speaker 3: you know this guy turn up to your house. Well,

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Speaker 3: he portrayed himself as the father of a teenage boy,

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Speaker 3: just like all of her other friends who had parents.

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Speaker 3: There was nothing out of the ordinary of you know,

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Speaker 3: meeting teenager's parents, whether they be in state, out of state.

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Speaker 3: You know, we often had we had other friends that

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Speaker 3: were interstate, and so you know, this is Brandon's dad.

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Speaker 3: You know, I really want you to meet him, Mum.

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Speaker 3: You know, he's a really nice guy.

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Speaker 1: Essentially, something we're encouraged to do, right when our children

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Speaker 1: are interacting with other children whose homes they might end

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Speaker 1: up going to, you're encouraged to meet their parents and

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Speaker 1: get to know them.

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Speaker 3: And Jess completely oblivious because you know, we do actually

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Speaker 3: have a we tend to in Australia have quite a

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Speaker 3: victim blaming mentality and there has been you know, some

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00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:07,680
Speaker 3: pretty cruel comments around Carly's passing around. You know, well,

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Speaker 3: what was her mother thinking? Or you know, but people

400
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:15,960
Speaker 3: just forget to understand. I think that when your mind

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Speaker 3: doesn't operate in that way, when you are an open

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Speaker 3: person and a loving person, you don't sit around thinking

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Speaker 3: that somebody you meet on the street could be a killer,

404
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:31,440
Speaker 3: or you know, somebody's parent, you know, a child's parents

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Speaker 3: house that you send to your child to for a

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Speaker 3: sleepover is potentially a pedophile. You know, our minds don't

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Speaker 3: go there because we don't exist in Our reality is

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Speaker 3: not based in that kind of reality.

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Speaker 4: Does that make sense?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not the thing that we're led to first

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Speaker 1: believe of the people we meet, right.

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Speaker 3: No, and you always try and see the best in people.

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Speaker 3: I mean, that's how I was brought up. So you

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00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 3: always give people the benefit of the doubt. Oh well,

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00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 3: you you know, maybe he was going through this and

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Speaker 3: that's why he behaved like that, or the mind tries

417
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:11,360
Speaker 3: and rationalizes sometimes behaviors that probably aren't so great, right,

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Speaker 3: We all do it, and so you know, honestly, we

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Speaker 3: were like I felt like Carly was like a lamb

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Speaker 3: to the slaughter, Like she was just so open and

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00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:28,199
Speaker 3: loving and loved everybody, believed in everyone. And that's what

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Speaker 3: he used to manipulate her to get her to meeting

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Speaker 3: without telling me. He used her kind nature, her loving nature,

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Speaker 3: her forgiving nature to lure her. And that was part

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Speaker 3: of the cruelest part of this is you know, that

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Speaker 3: belief Carly had that she was talking to this young

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Speaker 3: teenage boy who adored her. She had been speaking to

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Speaker 3: him for eighteen months. This wasn't an overnight thing, you know,

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00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,160
Speaker 3: checking in, how's your homework going, how's your mom, how's

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Speaker 3: your family like, being invested in her day to day life,

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00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 3: encouraging her. You know, these are the tactics that we

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Speaker 3: now know criminals use to groom children.

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Speaker 4: But back then I perhaps no idea.

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Speaker 3: All I saw was a boy at a computer typing

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00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,159
Speaker 3: in our kitchen to her on chat.

436
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 1: You know.

437
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:23,159
Speaker 3: So we were dealing with how could somebody like me,

438
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,960
Speaker 3: as a mum, you know, deal with a manipulative killer

439
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 3: who was operating over two hundred fake profiles online to

440
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 3: lure children. You know, he tried to meet somebody in

441
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,439
Speaker 3: the US in Singapore, and then of course met with Carly,

442
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:43,200
Speaker 3: and so I was no match for somebody so manipulative

443
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 3: and cunning. And of course Carli was not either. She

444
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:52,680
Speaker 3: was a child, and she was influenced by an adult.

445
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 4: You know.

446
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:56,360
Speaker 3: And you know it's easy to look back and go, well,

447
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 3: what if or why didn't I see this? Or you

448
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 3: can't do that because you know you're dealing with the

449
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:07,680
Speaker 3: situation that is so out of your day to day

450
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 3: reality that you just, like I said, still to this day,

451
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 3: I can't even believe that sometimes this is my reality.

452
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,879
Speaker 3: And that Carlie, you know, of course lost the most.

453
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 3: You know, I'm still here. She's not. She didn't get

454
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,919
Speaker 3: to experience her life to know what true love really is,

455
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,880
Speaker 3: what a family like, what it's like to have a family,

456
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 3: to experience this gift of life that we're all given

457
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,479
Speaker 3: and so she lost the most and I just I

458
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:39,359
Speaker 3: really think that, you know, it's my duty to do

459
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:44,639
Speaker 3: everything in my power to make sure that we're protecting

460
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,680
Speaker 3: young people online and when we're dealing with criminals who

461
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 3: are using the internet to exploit children, that we are

462
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 3: coming down hard on them with legislation and you know,

463
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,400
Speaker 3: doing everything we can to protect the community because far

464
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,160
Speaker 3: too often, and then you would have seen this through

465
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 3: the work.

466
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 2: That you do.

467
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 3: I mean, how many times does somebody offend against someone

468
00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 3: In the next minute they're out on the street again

469
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 3: and then reoffending, and you know, we really have to

470
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 3: do something about that and do more, I think, to

471
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,400
Speaker 3: protect to protect young people in this country.

472
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:20,360
Speaker 2: Well, you.

473
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 1: Mentioned there that he was operating more than two hundred

474
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 1: profiles and speaking to young girls all over the world

475
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,239
Speaker 1: and across Australia. And it didn't, in fact take them

476
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 1: very long to track him down and find him, and

477
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 1: they even found him in mid chat with a fourteen

478
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 1: year old girl when they finally refer him. So there

479
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 1: was quite the mountain of evidence against him. But how

480
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:45,960
Speaker 1: did it make you feel when this finally gets to

481
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 1: court and he pleads not guilty.

482
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 4: Oh, it's just ridiculous. And do you know what.

483
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 3: I knew that the truth would come to light because

484
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 3: it always does. And he just lied so much that

485
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 3: when people lie, the lie over the lie over the lie,

486
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 3: eventually they'll slip up right. And I just had this intuition.

487
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 3: I just had this I don't know, ability to kind

488
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 3: of sense that it would come to light, the truth

489
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 3: would come to light. Part of having that level of trauma,

490
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 3: and one of the things that the Buddhists actually talk

491
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 3: to me about when I was in France was when

492
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 3: you are in that much deep trauma and you are

493
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 3: in that groundless grief, you actually have a real sense

494
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 3: of connection and clarity. And so I could just kind

495
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 3: of see what needed to be done very clearly. I

496
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 3: was trying to see. I could just see practical solutions

497
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 3: to problems that we were having when it came in

498
00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 3: relation to the online space for children. But I don't know,

499
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 3: I just had this intuition, this sort of sense, and

500
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 3: part of that sense was what stopped me from taking

501
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 3: the drugs that doctors wanted me to take, and you know,

502
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:11,680
Speaker 3: all of these other things that I just knew that

503
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 3: I would lose connection, I'd lose connection to my daughter,

504
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 3: to myself, and I probably would not make it through.

505
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 3: But hearing through the trial all of the evidence was

506
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 3: absolutely unbelievable and shocking. I mean, like I told you

507
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 3: in the beginning, it was like a horror movie. You

508
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 3: can't imagine that somebody would exist, you know, day in

509
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 3: and day out, within fake profiles, conjuring up you know,

510
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 3: ridiculous stories, making up fake families, you know, operating all

511
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 3: of these profiles at once, trying to lure young girls.

512
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 3: And he had a history of you know, abusing women,

513
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 3: so you know, and that's also too thinking about the

514
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 3: humanity of all of this and how another person with

515
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 3: a beating heart could even do something like that to

516
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 3: another let alone a child. So you know, for people

517
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 3: like you and I, who you know, are sort of

518
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 3: loving and care genuine to care about other people, it's

519
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 3: very difficult for people to understand, you know, how others

520
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 3: can do this. And often I think two people think

521
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 3: that people like this can potentially be rehabilitated, only managed.

522
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 1: So Gary Newman was sentenced to twenty nine year's minimum

523
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 1: for what he did to your daughter. At the time,

524
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 1: you said that you were convinced, had he not been

525
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 1: caught out, that he would continue reoffending until such time

526
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 1: as he was caught.

527
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 4: Oh.

528
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 3: Absolutely, absolutely, Yeah, I've never seen somebody so vile, you know,

529
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 3: and just so vindictive and and just I mean, I

530
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 3: don't know what happened to him, you know, through his life,

531
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 3: but to become so vicious towards women and girls, you know.

532
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:15,719
Speaker 3: I guess again, people like you and I you can

533
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 3: never really understand how the mind of a killer works,

534
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 3: and you would never want to write. But my hope

535
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:29,400
Speaker 3: is is never released. And if he is, I mean,

536
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 3: we were part of a devising on the Release on

537
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 3: License bill in South Australia, which prevents a release of

538
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 3: serious offenders back into the community. So you know, that's

539
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 3: something I don't even want to think about.

540
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 1: Next, Sonia tells us when she decided to establish the

541
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 1: Carli Ryan Foundation in memory of her daughter.

542
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 2: So talk to me about the Carlie Ryan Foundation.

543
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 1: Where do you find yourself in that afternoon well of

544
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 1: grief that you were talking about. At what point do

545
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 1: you think I need I need to make this purposeful?

546
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 3: Really early on, I was just in this panic. Oh gosh,

547
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 3: if this has happened to Carly in South Australia. Then

548
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:20,719
Speaker 3: she's not going to be the first child that's going

549
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 3: to be targeted like this. This is just the beginning.

550
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 3: And so I was like, oh gosh, this is urgent.

551
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 3: We've got to do something to prevent this from happening

552
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 3: to another child. So immediately I thought, okay, what's the

553
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 3: best way to do this. Okay, so let's incorporate a

554
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 3: charitable organization. Let's register it as a harm prevention charity,

555
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 3: and what are the focus areas going to be, what's

556
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 3: the mission going to be? And essentially that would be

557
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 3: to prevent you know, online harms. And then again because

558
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 3: there was just no online safety education at all, it

559
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 3: was all about, Okay, we've got to create an education program.

560
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 3: We need to get this looked at by educators. We

561
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 3: need to start putting this Project Connect Education program out schools.

562
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 3: And then I need to start getting on the government's

563
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 3: back about the fact that technology had taken over and

564
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 3: that legislation had not caught up with current technologies. So

565
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 3: how is it possible for newman to fake his identity

566
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 3: in age to a child online and then try and

567
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:37,360
Speaker 3: meet up with her. And when I did suspect that

568
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 3: something might be up, and I talked to police about it.

569
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:43,399
Speaker 3: They couldn't do anything because he hadn't committed a crime, right,

570
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 3: So where were the gaps in legislation?

571
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:48,280
Speaker 4: How could we fill those gaps?

572
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 3: And how could we effectively create awareness in the community

573
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:57,440
Speaker 3: without instilling fear into everybody. Again, it's that fine balance

574
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 3: of you know, we don't want people to be just

575
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 3: totally freaked out and not letting their kids access educational

576
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 3: material or you know, speak to their family overseas or

577
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 3: whatever it might be. So I just had to really

578
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 3: think about those focus areas and then just make a

579
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:18,879
Speaker 3: plan and then just go for it. And so that's

580
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 3: what we did, and just started presenting in schools really quickly.

581
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:27,840
Speaker 3: And because I was there as her mother, of course

582
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 3: that created connection with students. So students, well, Carli could

583
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 3: have been my sister, she could have been my friend.

584
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,720
Speaker 3: The young boys would get really protective of the girls,

585
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 3: and you know, I'd want to become Carlie's advocates. And

586
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 3: so there was this real movement, you know, and it

587
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,279
Speaker 3: was really quite amazing. And what happened and what we

588
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 3: didn't expect to happen, right at The beginning was, you know,

589
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:56,320
Speaker 3: sharing what had happened to Carl. Then all of a sudden,

590
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,319
Speaker 3: young people would come up after the presentation and disclose,

591
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 3: this has happened to me online. Somebody had asked me

592
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 3: if if I'd send them a nude. This person's making

593
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:11,839
Speaker 3: me feel frightened. I just got shown pornography and I'm

594
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:14,959
Speaker 3: terrified what do I do? Or I'm not getting enough

595
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 3: likes and I'm anxious and I don't know how to

596
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 3: handle it, and it's really affecting my life. You know,

597
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:24,360
Speaker 3: it just went crazy. And so you know, obviously we

598
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 3: had you know, the appropriate reporting mechanisms, the disclosure forms,

599
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 3: and you know, helping schools connected, you know, adequate mandatory

600
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:40,239
Speaker 3: reporting resources, and you know, it.

601
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 4: Just really just took off.

602
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 3: And I really think sharing what had happened to Carli

603
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 3: created that connection. The created connection for students to feel

604
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,879
Speaker 3: like they could just come and talk to us, and

605
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 3: it helped parents and young people reconnect. So kids all

606
00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:59,839
Speaker 3: of a sudden understood, hey, my mum and dad are

607
00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:02,399
Speaker 3: not just being nosey and trying to stop me having

608
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:06,360
Speaker 3: fun online. There are actual dangers out there, and you know,

609
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 3: with us sort of helping them with dialogue to have

610
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 3: with their children, they could kids could begin to understand

611
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,319
Speaker 3: that their motivation, their parents' motivation was love and care

612
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 3: for them, and that they just wanted to have conversations

613
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 3: about Okay, if you hear or see something online that

614
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:27,279
Speaker 3: makes you feel uncomfortable, please come and tell me so

615
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:29,400
Speaker 3: that we can work what we're going to do together.

616
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 3: And if we don't know what to do, we're going

617
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:32,360
Speaker 3: to go to the Carlie Ryan Foundation and they're going

618
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 3: to help us, you know. So that really just took

619
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:38,879
Speaker 3: off through communities, and of course it was just word

620
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:43,240
Speaker 3: of mouth as well, so you know, as each school

621
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 3: talked to another school community, then we just got booked

622
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 3: out and we're booked out constantly months in advance, which

623
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 3: is fantastic. And you know, really from there then became

624
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 3: the legislative work, and that's where I authored Carly's Law.

625
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,280
Speaker 1: Can you talk us through Carl's Law and tell us

626
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 1: how it's worked since it's passed.

627
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 3: So Carl's Law essentially makes it an offense for someone

628
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 3: to lie about their identity and age online to a

629
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 3: minor under the age of sixteen, and the federal version

630
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 3: that passed in twenty and seventeen.

631
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:19,720
Speaker 4: Is little broader.

632
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 3: The state version of South Australia stricter, which includes preparation

633
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:27,719
Speaker 3: to meet. So essentially it helps police to arrest in

634
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 3: the grooming process. And what that does is the idea

635
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 3: behind Carl's Law is being preventative not reactive legislation, right,

636
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 3: so we don't want to deal a lot of legislation

637
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:41,439
Speaker 3: deals with the problem. Once it's happened, Well, then we've

638
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 3: got a child in trauma or worse, they've lost our life.

639
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 3: So what we wanted to do was give police the

640
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:49,879
Speaker 3: ability to rest before a crime had happened, and then

641
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,840
Speaker 3: they're able to lay additional charges on top of Carli's

642
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 3: Law and the Australian Federal Police that essentially it's been

643
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:58,759
Speaker 3: like gateway law. It gets them in the door. They'll

644
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 3: get in the door often then and they'll find terrorbots

645
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 3: of child abuse material on computers or other evidence and

646
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 3: then they can lay additional charges. But they have stopped,

647
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 3: they've prevented the meeting, and you know, investigators often take

648
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:18,360
Speaker 3: over the accounts of children and poses those children with

649
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:22,279
Speaker 3: offenders online and so it's been really really useful and

650
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 3: it was the first law of it's kind of in

651
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:27,359
Speaker 3: the world that was, you know, this preventative nature rather

652
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 3: than reactive. And so the UN contacted me and talked

653
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 3: to me about getting into the criminal codes of as

654
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,239
Speaker 3: many countries as possible, and that kind of set me

655
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:40,359
Speaker 3: on my global journey, you know, to the UK, to America,

656
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 3: to New Zealand, you know, all over the place from there.

657
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 3: And then COVID hit and we were all kind of stranded.

658
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 3: So I just went to the Minister for Home Affairs

659
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 3: and said, let me out of the country.

660
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 4: I got work to do. So I just shot off

661
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:56,800
Speaker 4: to America and the rest is history.

662
00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 1: As we might add, Sonya has just turn from an

663
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 1: overseas flight to sit in this studio and talk with

664
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 1: us today, which we are very appreciative of. She's concerned

665
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 1: about the jet lag, but we understand it's all part

666
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:09,879
Speaker 1: of your Yes, if I look a bit rough at

667
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:15,279
Speaker 1: that it'd been, I know that this has taken you

668
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 1: far and wide, and you've achieved so much in the

669
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 1: past few years.

670
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 2: But how does.

671
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:26,400
Speaker 1: Sonya the mum continue on as well? Because Carly's not

672
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:30,280
Speaker 1: your only child, you have a soign as well. How

673
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 1: do you continue parenting in the wake of that sort

674
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 1: of devastation. What kind of mum did that turn you into?

675
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:44,239
Speaker 3: Very difficult? Very very difficult? And you know, my son

676
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:50,239
Speaker 3: has been deeply affected by it, you know. Thankfully he

677
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 3: just had for such a young boy, had this ability

678
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 3: to really connect to what he needed to do to

679
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 3: be okay. He and Carly were really close. And again

680
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:05,880
Speaker 3: I would sit with him and say to him, what

681
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 3: do you think your sister would want you to do? Like,

682
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:10,359
Speaker 3: tell me what you think she'd want you to do.

683
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:13,040
Speaker 3: And he would sit there and say, We'll try to

684
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:17,880
Speaker 3: try and lives. You need to live for her and

685
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:21,279
Speaker 3: make her proud and show her who you are and

686
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 3: what you're capable of doing. Well, he just went to

687
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:27,240
Speaker 3: the gym, and you know, that's the way that he

688
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,440
Speaker 3: dealt with his grief and pain. And it was the

689
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 3: best thing that boy could have ever have done. And

690
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:35,919
Speaker 3: I'm so incredibly proud of him, you know, for who

691
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 3: he's turned out to be. He's a remarkable young man

692
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 3: with a real maturity that a lot of young men

693
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:47,719
Speaker 3: his age do not have, you know, So I think

694
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 3: coming out of the other end of that, you know,

695
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:55,520
Speaker 3: is a testament to his resilience and his ability to

696
00:41:55,560 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 3: strive in the worst of circumstances really, and so you know,

697
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:09,239
Speaker 3: I think again coming back to that connection between us

698
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 3: and really focusing on what Cali would want to do

699
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:18,759
Speaker 3: if it was a reverse situation and something happened to

700
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:20,919
Speaker 3: me and she was here, what would I want for her,

701
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:26,080
Speaker 3: you know, and not letting her suffering be in vain,

702
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:32,040
Speaker 3: you know, I just she suffered so terribly it cannot

703
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:37,719
Speaker 3: be for nothing. And really for me, it's about, you know,

704
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 3: I've got limited time.

705
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:40,879
Speaker 4: What am I able to do?

706
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 3: You know, And yes, we've done a lot, but there's

707
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:44,879
Speaker 3: still a lot to do.

708
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:45,719
Speaker 4: You know.

709
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:50,280
Speaker 3: We've passed legislation. I'm on a number of global working

710
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:55,120
Speaker 3: groups and a bunch here in Australia advising government. You know,

711
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:57,839
Speaker 3: I'm constantly on the go, and of course now I'm

712
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 3: on some national working groups in America too, And so

713
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:04,400
Speaker 3: it's really about being part of the global conversation and

714
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:10,240
Speaker 3: the global you know, global response to the inappropriate nature

715
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 3: of a lot of platforms and you know, how we

716
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:18,400
Speaker 3: can protect our kids and not only from predators and criminals,

717
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 3: but also from the addictive nature of these platforms and

718
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:24,400
Speaker 3: the mental health issues associated with them. You know, as

719
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 3: soon as smartphones were invented, we saw a huge spike

720
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 3: all of a sudden in mental health issues, and so

721
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:35,279
Speaker 3: you know, there's there's many different layers to this, and

722
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 3: there's so much to do, and like I said, I

723
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:39,960
Speaker 3: have limited time to do it, so I really have

724
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:42,319
Speaker 3: to have that tunnel vision focus and just go for it,

725
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 3: you know, and hope that when it's my time to go,

726
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:51,239
Speaker 3: that I can leave a legacy behind for Kali that's

727
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 3: worthy of, you know, something really special.

728
00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 1: We talked about this a little bit off air, and

729
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:02,239
Speaker 1: I hope you don't mind me asking it. You've in

730
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 1: making what happened to KLi your life's work, you're essentially

731
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 1: forced to relive this moment over and over and over again.

732
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:15,839
Speaker 2: How do you not fall apart every time you tell

733
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 2: this story?

734
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 4: I can tell you that.

735
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:23,800
Speaker 3: Everything I've done has been through that power of love,

736
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 3: every single bit of it. And people underestimate that, I

737
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:33,840
Speaker 3: think underestimate the power of that. And you know, not

738
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 3: taking no for an answer basically, and just being a real,

739
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 3: you know, bull in a china shop when it comes

740
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 3: to dealing with you know, legislators and you know others.

741
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 3: You know, we need to protect our children. You know

742
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:53,719
Speaker 3: there isn't there is no option for no. You know,

743
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:57,120
Speaker 3: we have to try. We owe it to them. I

744
00:44:57,160 --> 00:44:59,880
Speaker 3: owe it to my daughter. I couldn't save her, but

745
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,759
Speaker 3: what I can do is is save others from the

746
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 3: same fate, from the same level of suffering. And that

747
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:08,359
Speaker 3: is a promise I made to her, and that's one

748
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:09,239
Speaker 3: I intend to keep.

749
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 1: Were you doing a remarkable job of what that's for sure.

750
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:15,360
Speaker 1: I'd love to know what you think when you see

751
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:18,920
Speaker 1: that photo. I mean I was living and working. I'm

752
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:21,359
Speaker 1: from South Australia, so I remember when this happened. And

753
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:24,880
Speaker 1: that photo, the school photo of Carli, that has become

754
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 1: really quite a snapshot of a moment because it captures

755
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:35,360
Speaker 1: a young schoolgirl who looked like so many other teenagers

756
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 1: did in two thousand and seven. She's got that haircut,

757
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 1: you know, she's a real moment in time in that photo.

758
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:45,800
Speaker 1: What do you see when you look at that because

759
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 1: for the majority of us, we see it and it

760
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:50,319
Speaker 1: just it transports us to a moment where we heard

761
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:50,840
Speaker 1: the news.

762
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:52,920
Speaker 2: About what happened to Carlie. What do you see when

763
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 2: you look at that school photo?

764
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:58,920
Speaker 3: Oh, I said, the most beautiful girl. You know, she's

765
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:04,240
Speaker 3: she was so loving and so kind and so compassionate

766
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 3: and funny. You know, I just see the light of

767
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:13,959
Speaker 3: my life. You know, how lucky was I to have

768
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:17,799
Speaker 3: such an incredible daughter to be able to know what

769
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:19,840
Speaker 3: that kind of love is. A lot of people go

770
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:24,239
Speaker 3: their whole lives and never experience love like that. So

771
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:27,759
Speaker 3: I feel so grateful that she was mine. You know,

772
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:30,719
Speaker 3: she still is, you know, even though she's not here

773
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:36,920
Speaker 3: in a physical sense, she is still connected to me.

774
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:43,839
Speaker 3: I think death is physical, you know, it's it's that

775
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 3: love connection.

776
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:49,200
Speaker 4: Cannot be broken. It's like a thread. And really that's

777
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 4: what I hold on to.

778
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:54,919
Speaker 3: And you know, maybe who knows, None of us really

779
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 3: know what happens when when it's our time to go,

780
00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:00,399
Speaker 3: maybe I might see her beautiful face. You know, that's

781
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:05,480
Speaker 3: all I can hope for when it's my time. But

782
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:09,279
Speaker 3: I can tell you I will fight for her and

783
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:13,680
Speaker 3: fight for every other child out there who you know,

784
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:17,799
Speaker 3: has become a victim of an online crime. You know,

785
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:21,480
Speaker 3: from the latest research, over three hundred and fifty million

786
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:24,279
Speaker 3: children are exploited online every single year.

787
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 2: Gosh, that's a sobering number, isn't it.

788
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is a pandemic in itself and as a

789
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:33,360
Speaker 3: community we have to face this. We have to realize

790
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:38,440
Speaker 3: that this is a number one platform for criminals to manipulate,

791
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:43,359
Speaker 3: groom and exploit children, and they're doing an alarming rate

792
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:48,480
Speaker 3: and they have so many different awful tactics and so

793
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:51,360
Speaker 3: you know, really I would say to listeners, be aware

794
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:53,919
Speaker 3: of the apps that your children are on, know how

795
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:58,240
Speaker 3: they work, know the functionality. Talk to your young person

796
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 3: about their privacy settings. Make sure they will come to you,

797
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:04,880
Speaker 3: you know, if they see or hear or something happens

798
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:08,600
Speaker 3: online that makes them feel uncomfortable, or somebody approaches them

799
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 3: for something inappropriate, that I don't feel afraid to come

800
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 3: to you, that they're not going to get in trouble,

801
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:16,359
Speaker 3: that you're going to work with them to help them

802
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 3: to figure out what to do. And for young listeners

803
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:24,320
Speaker 3: to just look after each other and be aware that unfortunately,

804
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:26,440
Speaker 3: we live in a world where there are bad people

805
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 3: out there and there's a lot of them, and you know,

806
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:33,440
Speaker 3: so look after each other too. And I really think

807
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 3: a lot of the time, you know, from our research

808
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 3: shows that young people disclose to other young people. So

809
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:43,359
Speaker 3: you know, if you're a young person and somebody has

810
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:45,600
Speaker 3: one of your friends has mentioned something to you, do

811
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 3: something about it, you know, reach out to us, or

812
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:51,400
Speaker 3: reach out to somebody who could potentially give some advice.

813
00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:55,360
Speaker 3: We just launched a new website in America called my

814
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 3: Friend Too. It's hashtag my friend Too, and it's a

815
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:00,759
Speaker 3: platform for friends to be our to go to to

816
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 3: who have received a disclosure from another friend and to

817
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:06,840
Speaker 3: give advice on what to do. So that would be

818
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 3: a good Even though it's in the States right now,

819
00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:11,640
Speaker 3: we're wanting to bring it to Australia. But still even

820
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:14,960
Speaker 3: being you know, an American platform, we can still access

821
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 3: it on the Internet and still get advice. It's just

822
00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:21,680
Speaker 3: different reporting mechanisms. But you know, that's the sort of

823
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:25,040
Speaker 3: thing that we need to offer our young people and

824
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:28,600
Speaker 3: also to listen to them, you know, listen to their needs,

825
00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 3: listen to what it is that they're they're dealing with,

826
00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 3: what they're facing, what their fears are, what are the

827
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 3: things that they want to see, you know, and take

828
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 3: that into account, you know, while while we're advising on

829
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:44,239
Speaker 3: legislation and you know, and everything else that we're trying

830
00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:46,680
Speaker 3: to do in the background to protect them, to give

831
00:49:46,719 --> 00:49:48,280
Speaker 3: them their voice in the process.

832
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 1: A really big thank you to Sonya for helping us

833
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 1: tell both hers and Carly's story today. We know that

834
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:01,319
Speaker 1: it is indescribably hardh for a parent to relive this.

835
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:04,560
Speaker 1: You can find links to the Curlie Ryan Foundation, the mission,

836
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:07,359
Speaker 1: and where to donate in our show notes. True Crime

837
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 1: Conversations is hosted by me Clare Murphy and produced by

838
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:14,400
Speaker 1: Charlie Blackman, with audio designed by Jacob Brown. If you

839
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:16,279
Speaker 1: want to see more of our content, you can head

840
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:20,000
Speaker 1: over to our Instagram at true Crime Conversations for more details.

841
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 2: And if you do have.

842
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:23,799
Speaker 1: A second and you got a lot out of this episode,

843
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 1: please leave us an Apple podcast review or leave a

844
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:27,080
Speaker 1: comment on Spotify.

845
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:28,520
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for listening.

846
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 1: I'll be back next week with another True Crime Conversation.

847
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:38,319
Speaker 1: True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and

848
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:40,480
Speaker 1: waters that this podcast was recorded on