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Speaker 1: You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.

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Speaker 2: Mamma may I acknowledges the traditional owners of the land

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Speaker 2: and waters that this podcast is recorded on. Well, fitt

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Speaker 2: of stupid. What are you talking about?

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Speaker 1: You look fine?

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Speaker 2: I just get like really insecure.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes I feel right, but also from the fact that.

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Speaker 2: When my mum and my dad got a divorce, my

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Speaker 2: dad convinced me that it was my fault and I

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Speaker 2: believe in for like three years. I'm gonna go get changed.

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Speaker 2: I don't relate to that part of you. Never told

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Speaker 2: me this.

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Speaker 1: For Mother Maya. I'm your host, Ashani Dante. Welcome to

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Speaker 1: But Are You Happy? The podcast where Overthinking finally gets

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Speaker 1: the airtime it deserves.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Doctor Anastagia hernis a clinical psychologist passionate about

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Speaker 2: happiness and mental health. Have you ever said things like trauma,

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Speaker 2: dump or casually claimed I'm traumatized. We've actually touched on

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Speaker 2: this before. How the word trauma has become kind of

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Speaker 2: a buzzword these days.

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Speaker 1: Oh totally. I've definitely had to stop myself from over

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Speaker 1: using those terms.

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Speaker 2: It's become a part of everyday language. But today I

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Speaker 2: want to unpack what trauma really means what PTSD looks

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Speaker 2: like and share some ways that people can get support.

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Speaker 2: We will be talking about trauma, so do listen mindfully.

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Speaker 1: This is going to be a good one. Let's start learning. Okay, Anastasia,

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Speaker 1: let's cut to the chase. Trauma is a word we're

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Speaker 1: hearing everywhere right now, from therapy rooms, social media to

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Speaker 1: also just casually in conversations with friends. So I would

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Speaker 1: love to hear from your lens the psychologist, what actually

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Speaker 1: is trauma?

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Speaker 2: Yes, let's unpack the word, the term before I jump

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Speaker 2: into talking about trauma. Though, I want to say, like

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Speaker 2: this whole episode, I guess the point of it, at

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Speaker 2: least from my perspective, is for us to help listeners

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Speaker 2: build literacy around trauma. Right. It's not about saying you

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Speaker 2: do have trauma, you don't have trauma. It's not the

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Speaker 2: Trauma Olympic. We're not comparing traumas, right. We really want

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Speaker 2: to kind of come about it sensitively and the goal

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Speaker 2: is to build an understanding and a literacy around the topic. Okay,

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Speaker 2: what I'm going to describe won't necessarily fit every single

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Speaker 2: person's experience. As we know with anything mental health related,

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Speaker 2: it impacts people differently. But if we unpack the word trauma,

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Speaker 2: it comes from the Greek.

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Speaker 1: But for Greaks, Greeks, they're on it that.

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Speaker 2: I'm right, that's just me too. It's like I am Greek.

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Speaker 2: But a trauma literally means a wound. Right. So if

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Speaker 2: we just think physically for a moment, if we take

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Speaker 2: away like the psychological element of trauma, if we just

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Speaker 2: think physically, if we go to a hospital, there'll be

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Speaker 2: a trauma ward. Right. So this is for anyone who

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Speaker 2: has been wounded physically. When we talk about trauma in

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Speaker 2: the mental health sense, we're talking about psychological wounds. Okay,

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Speaker 2: So psychological wounds actually function very similarly to physical wounds. Right.

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Speaker 2: If I burn my arm and then someone touches it

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Speaker 2: before it's healed, that's probably gonna feel quite painful, and

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Speaker 2: it's probably going to be more painful if I have

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Speaker 2: third degree burns versus first degree burns. Right. So the

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Speaker 2: wors my wound is, the worst my trauma is, the

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Speaker 2: more it's going to hurt when someone touches it. Now

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Speaker 2: that applies psychologically. If I have a psychological wound as

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Speaker 2: a result of experiencing something in my life and someone

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Speaker 2: pokes it, or prods it. If someone says something to

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Speaker 2: me that triggers it. That's where the word kind of

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Speaker 2: trigger falls into all this. It's going to activate that

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Speaker 2: wound and it's going to hurt.

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Speaker 1: It's so interesting because as you're saying that, it reminds

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Speaker 1: me of when we were speaking about rejection the episode.

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Speaker 1: We did a rejection and we did unpack wounds, but

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Speaker 1: I actually didn't know trauma meant wound. Yes, absolutely, it's

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Speaker 1: always connected.

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Speaker 2: So if I kind of flesh it out a little

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Speaker 2: bit more, trauma is a psychological wound, but it's essentially

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Speaker 2: the emotional, the psychological, or physical response to events or

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Speaker 2: circumstances that have been extremely stressful, frightening, distressing, or threatening

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Speaker 2: in some way, and a person in those situations feels

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Speaker 2: so overwhelmed that they feel they cannot cope, and so

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Speaker 2: that psychological wound is formed as a result of the

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Speaker 2: experiences they go through. Now, there are different types of

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Speaker 2: trauma right in the world of mental health. We sometimes

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Speaker 2: talk about big T little TA trauma.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I've heard that term.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So when we talk about big T trauma, so

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Speaker 2: this is tea with like a capital T. We're talking

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Speaker 2: about those events and circumstances that are undeniably traumatic, right,

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Speaker 2: So things like domestic violence, things like you know, growing

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Speaker 2: up in, things like abuse, right, things that we wouldn't

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Speaker 2: question whether they were traumatic events. But trauma isn't just

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Speaker 2: necessarily what happens to us, but kind of psychologically how

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Speaker 2: we cope with those events. Right. They're the big T traumas,

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Speaker 2: But we can also think about trauma with the lower

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Speaker 2: case tea. And this isn't to say that it's a

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Speaker 2: lesser trauma or anything like that, but these are emotional

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Speaker 2: traumas or attachment traumas. A lot of these develop very

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Speaker 2: early in life. We've talked before about needs, psychological needs,

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Speaker 2: emotional needs, so trauma can also develop when a young

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Speaker 2: child doesn't have their emotional needs met early in life.

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Speaker 2: And this doesn't necessarily mean that they're exposed to abuse

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Speaker 2: or anything like that. They might actually come from a

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Speaker 2: very loving family, but for whatever reason, that childs didn't

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Speaker 2: have their need for love, support, validation, empathy met in

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Speaker 2: their early years, and so they develop this emotional wound.

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Speaker 2: That's really important because that attachment trauma, that emotional trauma

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Speaker 2: stays with them through their life and can absolutely impact

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Speaker 2: them in adulthood.

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Speaker 1: So where does PTSD come into all of this.

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Speaker 2: So PTSD, post traumatic stress disorder, is what it stands for.

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Speaker 2: It's a diagnosable mental health condition. So not everyone who

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Speaker 2: experiences trauma will develop PTSD, right, but everyone who has

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Speaker 2: PTSD has experienced trauma, Okay, So it's a very specific

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Speaker 2: diagnosable mental health condition. And there's a few criteria that

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Speaker 2: I'll talk you through for how we diagnose PTSD. So

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Speaker 2: someone has experienced a traumatic event or a series of

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Speaker 2: traumatic events where there has been either a real kind

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Speaker 2: of threat to their life or a perceived threat to

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Speaker 2: their life. And what we find is that there are

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Speaker 2: a whole range of symptoms like flashbacks, nightmares, reexperiencing symptoms.

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Speaker 2: So I might just sort of be suddenly sitting in

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Speaker 2: this chair and all of a sudden, I feel like

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Speaker 2: I'm back in that trauma experience. We see a lot

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Speaker 2: of kind of negative beliefs that develop about a person's

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Speaker 2: self or the world that they live in, or other people.

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Speaker 2: We see a lot of avoidance patterns, so naturally people

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Speaker 2: will start to avoid things that remind them of the traumas,

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Speaker 2: and there'll also be difficulties with mood and regulating mood.

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Speaker 1: So does that mean someone who has PTSD would avoid

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Speaker 1: a certain situation from playing out again? So what I

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Speaker 1: mean is, let's say a traumatic event happened in a

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Speaker 1: specific suburb, right, does that mean they'll forever avoid that

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Speaker 1: specific suburb.

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Speaker 2: So often in the healing process and the treatment, we

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Speaker 2: try to gradually get a person to stop avoiding those things. Now,

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Speaker 2: the avoidance can be can be physical avoidance. So it

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Speaker 2: might be, as you said, I avoid going to a

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Speaker 2: particular area because that's where the trauma happened. But it

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Speaker 2: can also be an avoidance of internal experiences. So I

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Speaker 2: might avoid certain feelings, or I cut off when I

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Speaker 2: experience certain feelings because they remind me of the trauma,

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Speaker 2: or I avoid thinking about certain things. I sort of

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Speaker 2: like push them away as much as I possibly can,

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Speaker 2: because they again remind me of the trauma and I

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Speaker 2: want to avoid that. So we might practically avoid things,

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Speaker 2: but we might also internally avoid certain experiences.

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Speaker 1: So you mentioned something around flashbacks and people going back

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Speaker 1: to the moment where the trauma played out. Can you

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Speaker 1: speak more to that.

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Speaker 2: Yes, So this is what we call reexperiencing symptoms, and

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Speaker 2: this is quite specific to PTSD. So again, people who

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Speaker 2: have trauma but don't have PTSD will not necessarily have

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Speaker 2: these re experiencing symptoms. So these are episodes that really

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Speaker 2: kind of take over a person. They can be very

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Speaker 2: scary when someone is in the middle of it and

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Speaker 2: they come about without warning. That's I think what the

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Speaker 2: scary part is for a lot of people. So you know,

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Speaker 2: they'll just be suddenly like driving down the street or

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Speaker 2: you know, sitting at home watching Telly, and all of

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Speaker 2: a sudden, they have this flooding of reminders of the trauma,

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Speaker 2: and they have very vivid kind of memories and sensory

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Speaker 2: experiences that remind them of the trauma that it almost

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Speaker 2: feels like they're back inness that's how strong and overwhelming

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Speaker 2: it is. So it could be triggered by something like

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Speaker 2: a smell, It could be triggered by hearing someone's name,

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Speaker 2: It could be triggered by an internal feeling that they have.

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Speaker 2: But it's very overwhelming, and it's got to do with

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Speaker 2: how trauma memories are sort of encoded in the brain.

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Speaker 1: Look the way that I want to word this, I

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Speaker 1: want to make sure that I'm being really sensitive to

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Speaker 1: anyone that does have PTSD. But when it comes to reexperiencing,

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Speaker 1: do you feel like time does heal, Like you know,

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Speaker 1: from one year to five years, like the way that

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Speaker 1: you would relate to that event would be really different.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yes, and no, people who have PTSD, so they

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Speaker 2: have these very specific symptoms, time does not necessarily heal. Right.

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Speaker 2: So I've certainly seen people who have untreated PTSD. They

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Speaker 2: come to the clinic, their traumatic experience happened five, ten

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Speaker 2: years ago, and they are still experiencing these flashbacks, these nightmares,

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Speaker 2: these very strong re experiencing symptoms. We see it a

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Speaker 2: lot with people who are first responders, who've been maybe

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Speaker 2: like in the police force, veterans, or people who've experienced

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Speaker 2: severe trauma, where if it goes untreated, it doesn't necessarily

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Speaker 2: get better on its own. For people who have trauma

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Speaker 2: and don't have those specific PTSD symptoms, there can certainly

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Speaker 2: be that experience for some people that with time, different

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Speaker 2: perspectives develop, Different kind of healing processes might naturally occur

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Speaker 2: for a person, and their relationship with the trauma can change.

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Speaker 1: So I've heard the term complex PTSD. Is there a

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Speaker 1: difference between that and PTSD?

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Speaker 2: Yes, lots of terms. I'm glad that we're unpacking them. Yes,

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Speaker 2: so complex PTSD is really where we're talking about someone

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Speaker 2: who has experienced multiple, sometimes kind of prolonged or repeated

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Speaker 2: exposures to trauma. So this might be, for example, someone

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Speaker 2: who's had repeated experiences of trauma in their childhood, someone

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Speaker 2: again who's a first responder who's had repeated exposures to trauma.

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Speaker 2: So when we're talking about PTSD and trauma, it doesn't

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Speaker 2: have to be that there's been a threat to someone,

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Speaker 2: but that they've perhaps witnessed trauma. So when we think

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Speaker 2: about like you know, paramedics, for example, they're constantly being

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Speaker 2: exposed to and witnessing trauma, and I know they themselves

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Speaker 2: can be in some risky situations as well, but even

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Speaker 2: that aside, just the kind of witnessing trauma that has

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Speaker 2: that cumulative effect and that absolutely impacts someone and can

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Speaker 2: disrupt a person's kind of sense of self and sense

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Speaker 2: of self in the world as well.

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Speaker 1: So it's really interesting because for me personally, I probably

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Speaker 1: about fifteen years ago, I got into a car accident

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Speaker 1: and it was pretty bad. I had it was like

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Speaker 1: a head on collision. I broke a couple of bones

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Speaker 1: in my wrist fractured top rip collapse along, So it

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Speaker 1: was pretty big deal. I've never been in a car

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Speaker 1: accident before, and I remember, you know, going through the

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Speaker 1: healing process and did all the things. I got surgery

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Speaker 1: and all of that, and eventually, once I was able to,

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Speaker 1: I was able to get back into the car and

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Speaker 1: drive independently, and I felt fine. But it's really interesting

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Speaker 1: because when even now, when I'm in the passenger seat

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Speaker 1: and yo, who's my husband?

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Speaker 2: He might be.

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Speaker 1: Driving if because my reflexes are probably a little bit

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Speaker 1: faster than his, so I still do get a bit

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Speaker 1: hypervigilant in the car and my body goes into reaction

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Speaker 1: mode because I'm like, oh no. But it's interesting because

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Speaker 1: I wonder because my mind's like, oh, I can drive,

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Speaker 1: it's all good, But then my body's doing something different.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's some dissonance going on, you know. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: I just find that really fascinating.

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Speaker 2: You know what you're reminding me of, which I think

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Speaker 2: is so relevant to trauma. It's it's control, right, And

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Speaker 2: I think what trauma really does to people is, in

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Speaker 2: no unst terms, highlights how little control we have in life. Right,

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Speaker 2: So when someone goes through trauma, it is an absolute

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Speaker 2: message of things can happen to us without our choice,

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Speaker 2: without our consent, and without our control, and we are

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Speaker 2: vulnerable to that. Really, no one chooses to go through trauma, right,

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Speaker 2: It kind of happens to us without our choice, without

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Speaker 2: our consent. So if someone's in a car accident, they're

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Speaker 2: not choosing that. If someone goes through abuse, they're not

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Speaker 2: choosing that it happens to them. And so it doesn't

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Speaker 2: surprise me that when you say you're in the passenger seat,

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Speaker 2: you might feel more anxious or more hypervigilant because you

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Speaker 2: have less control in that situation as opposed to maybe

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Speaker 2: when you're behind the wheel.

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Speaker 1: Totally totally and it's like I fully trust you and

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Speaker 1: he's driving abilities like we haven't got into a car accident,

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Speaker 1: and bless him, he's so patient with me as well.

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Speaker 1: But it is really fascinating, hey, and you.

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Speaker 2: Said it happened a number of years ago, right. The

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Speaker 2: brain and the body, I mean, they're fascinating things. They're interconnected.

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Speaker 2: But you know, as the book says, the body keeps

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Speaker 2: the skull. The body does keep the score.

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Speaker 1: It really does.

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Speaker 2: I think it's fascinating to think about trauma and what

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Speaker 2: actually happens in the brain and the body when we

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Speaker 2: go through trauma. And I love a bit of neuroscience,

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Speaker 2: so maybe we can unpack that.

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Speaker 1: We love us some neuroscience.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so let's talk a couple of things. First of all,

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Speaker 2: let's talk trauma and cortisol. Okay, So cortisol is a hormone.

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Speaker 2: We all have cortisol. It's in the body. It helps

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Speaker 2: regulate kind of bodily functions. Cortisol is produced in our

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Speaker 2: adrenal glands, which sit just above our kidneys. Okay, And

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Speaker 2: so cortisol does lots of things. It helps with our

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Speaker 2: blood pressure, it helps with sugar levels, it helps with

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Speaker 2: inflammation in the body, like, it does a whole range

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Speaker 2: of things. But during a stressful event, cortisole is released

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Speaker 2: and it prepares our body for that fidal flight moment.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: It also sort of, you know, our body also kind

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Speaker 2: of stops doing other things like digestion and things that

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Speaker 2: are not necessary when we need to kind of prepare

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Speaker 2: to fights. Right, So we want all like kind of

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Speaker 2: our blood flow to go to our extremities to prepare

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Speaker 2: us to either run away or fight off the threat, okay,

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Speaker 2: And cordisole is absolutely activated during stress and trauma. It's

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Speaker 2: also kind of it stays elevated for a period of

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Speaker 2: time afterwards, and then it helps us kind of reregulate

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Speaker 2: our system. What we find for people who have been

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Speaker 2: through repeated instances of stress or trauma is that their

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Speaker 2: cortisole system becomes overly active, like it's being activated too much,

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Speaker 2: and people can end up having some kind of chronic

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Speaker 2: health conditions as a result of this. They can end

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Speaker 2: up with headaches, digestive issues, cardiovascular issues, a whole range

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Speaker 2: of things. If cortisol is being activated too frequently in

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Speaker 2: our body.

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Speaker 1: Is that kind of usually why like people get burnt

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Speaker 1: out as well, because the cortisol levels are spiked.

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Speaker 2: It's what happens during burnout. So it's not just trauma,

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Speaker 2: but it's kind of a chronic stress. So if someone's

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Speaker 2: just in a you know, as we talked about now,

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Speaker 2: burnout episode, a state of stress for a long period

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Speaker 2: of time, whether that's with work, whether that's with life,

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Speaker 2: whatever it might be, our system, as it relates to

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Speaker 2: cortisole kind of goes out of whack.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So that's what's happening in the body. Well, what's

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Speaker 1: going on in the brain tell us more about what's

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Speaker 1: going on there.

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Speaker 2: I find this bit fascinating. Okay, So the way in

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Speaker 2: which trauma memories are stored in the brain is different

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Speaker 2: to how other memories are stored in the brain. Okay,

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Speaker 2: So when we are in a stressful situation, when we're

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Speaker 2: in a traumatic situation, different parts of the brain work differently. Okay.

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Speaker 2: So the hippocampus, which is the part of the brain

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Speaker 2: that helps us with storing memory, is generally it's sort

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Speaker 2: of under active. And the amygdala, which is the part

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Speaker 2: of the brain that is very much involved with emotions

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Speaker 2: and senses, it's heightened, right, it's on alert. And so

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Speaker 2: what happens as a result of that is that when

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Speaker 2: we go through a traumatic experience, we encode very specific

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Speaker 2: parts of the trauma memory very deeply. So people who

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Speaker 2: go through trauma will often say, I can remember the

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Speaker 2: smell of the shop that I was in when the

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Speaker 2: trauma happened, or I can remember exactly what time it

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Speaker 2: said it was on the clock, or I can remember

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Speaker 2: this overwhelming rush of blood running through my body. Right,

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Speaker 2: they can remember these sort of sensory details with great detail,

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Speaker 2: but they often struggle to recall the traumatic event from

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Speaker 2: start to finish. They say, there are just gaps in

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Speaker 2: my memory. There are these blocks I can remember, you know,

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Speaker 2: say the trauma occurred inarticular place, I can remember walking

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Speaker 2: into it. I then don't remember what happened. Then I

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Speaker 2: remember the smell, then I remember someone screaming. Then I

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Speaker 2: have this blank period and then I was, you know,

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Speaker 2: in an ambulance at the end. So there, so it's

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Speaker 2: like a puzzle, but not all the pieces of the

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Speaker 2: puzzle are there.

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Speaker 1: That's also like, as you're saying, that can be somewhat

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Speaker 1: validating for people who have gone through hard times and

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Speaker 1: not having the words to be able to articulate it

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Speaker 1: as well, because you can kind of doubt yourself a

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Speaker 1: little bit, being like, oh my gosh, like what actually happened?

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Speaker 1: I mean this is a slight tangent, but also it's

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Speaker 1: related to traumatic events like even let's say abuse, you know,

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Speaker 1: like you not actually being able to step through the

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Speaker 1: events right and it's like, okay, well are they going

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Speaker 1: to believe that person then because neurologically they couldn't actually remember.

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Speaker 1: So it's like where's the compassion in that.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, it's very hard to feel confident in yourself

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Speaker 2: or to not feel sort of confused by certain traumatic

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Speaker 2: experiences if you feel like your memory of it is

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Speaker 2: not solid. And it's all to do with just how

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Speaker 2: the brain encodes these memories, and it's why people get

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Speaker 2: those flashbacks and those re experiencing symptoms because the smell

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Speaker 2: you know of that shop is so deeply encoded that

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Speaker 2: then they walk past it years later, they get that

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Speaker 2: same smell and it brings it all back. For example,

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Speaker 2: I've worked with you know, veterans who say, you know,

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Speaker 2: they've they've they've been in battle, and there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of smells that are out there, and then they walk

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Speaker 2: past the butcher's shop and they are completely back in

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Speaker 2: a war zone because the smell of blood wow from

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Speaker 2: the butcher's shop reminds them of war. So and that

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Speaker 2: can happen years and years later.

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Speaker 1: So what isn't trauma?

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Speaker 2: This is a hard one to answer because I don't

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Speaker 2: want to sit here and say to people, like that

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Speaker 2: thing you went through, it's not trauma like you thought

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Speaker 2: it was, but it's not right, Like we're not able

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Speaker 2: to invalidate anyone's experience exactly exactly. And it's that idea

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Speaker 2: that trauma isn't just what happens to us, but it's

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Speaker 2: what happens inside of us and the psychological wound that

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Speaker 2: develops as a result of it. So you know, if

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Speaker 2: you go and watch a movie and you feel really

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Speaker 2: sad when you watch it, you know you're not traumatized

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Speaker 2: by it. You might have emotions about it, you might

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Speaker 2: feel overwhelmed by something, you might feel sad by something,

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Speaker 2: doesn't necessarily mean you're traumatized by it. I always come

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Speaker 2: back to this analogy of the wound. Does it feel

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Speaker 2: like a wound has developed for you as a result

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Speaker 2: of the experience you went through? Or did it just

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Speaker 2: feel really overwhelming and hard? But there's no wound that

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Speaker 2: stays with you, right, These wounds, we carry them with us,

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Speaker 2: they stay with us. They can be triggered up, they

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Speaker 2: can heal, but as I said, they function like physical

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Speaker 2: wounds that we might have. They're sensitive, they can be raw,

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Speaker 2: but they can also heal with time. So someone's kind

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Speaker 2: of questioning for themselves, isn't it trauma? Ask yourself the question,

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Speaker 2: do I feel like I've got a wound? As a

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Speaker 2: result of it that's stayed with me for a period

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Speaker 2: of time or was that just hard and overwhelming?

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Speaker 1: So it's really interesting because I would classify myself as

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Speaker 1: someone that's highly sensitive and empathetic, right, So it's interesting

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Speaker 1: you talk about the wound aspect after something that's happened,

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Speaker 1: because then it gets me wondering, being like, okay, is

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Speaker 1: there because I know previously in episodes you talk about,

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Speaker 1: you know, certain diagnoses of mental health conditions, and usually

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Speaker 1: there's some kind of time period. So would you say that,

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Speaker 1: let's say, a wound lingers like, is there a specific

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Speaker 1: timeframe that it needs to be around for alw Is

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Speaker 1: it hard to kind of name something around that.

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Speaker 2: It's hard to put a time frame on it. When

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Speaker 2: we think about those childhood traumas, those attachment traumas, those

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Speaker 2: emotional wounds, those can be around through our whole adult life,

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Speaker 2: particularly if they're not addressed. And the thing is that

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Speaker 2: a lot of the time, particularly with those childhood wounds,

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Speaker 2: they can be unconsciously being triggered up. Right, We don't

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Speaker 2: necessarily even have an awareness of them if we haven't

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Speaker 2: done some of that self reflective.

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Speaker 1: Work and that kind of ties in quite beautifully to

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Speaker 1: what I want to unpack a little bit more because

400
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Speaker 1: just around trauma responses, because why is it that some

401
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Speaker 1: people respond so deeply to trauma versus other people where

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Speaker 1: they might bounce back because I know you spoke to

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Speaker 1: the childhood part, but is there any other factors?

404
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, so the childhood part is an important one, right,

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Speaker 2: And the reason for this is that when we go

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Speaker 2: through trauma as a child, we don't yet have the

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Speaker 2: cognitive capacity in the brain to rationalize parts of it.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: So that's not to say that adults are just rationalize away,

410
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Speaker 2: you know, any traumas they go through in their adult life,

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Speaker 2: But as children, we don't yet have that function in

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Speaker 2: the brain. What we do have is the function related

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Speaker 2: to emotion. Kids are very emotional, right, so they internalize

414
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Speaker 2: traumatic experiences in a more emotional and self identifying way.

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Speaker 2: They are the center of their own world. If something

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Speaker 2: happens to them, they internalize it as being potentially their

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Speaker 2: fault or because of them, or related to them in

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Speaker 2: some way, and it's a highly emotionally encoded memory. That's

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Speaker 2: different for adults, who have more of a capacity to

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Speaker 2: be able to rationalize. You know that person potentially was

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Speaker 2: abusive and that's because they're a bad person. Children can't

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00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:54,200
Speaker 2: do that as well. Yeah, So to answer your question, yes,

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Speaker 2: when a trauma occurs, absolutely can impact sort of how

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Speaker 2: someone deals with it. There's always that genetic and biological vulnerability.

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Speaker 2: Some people are just more vulnerable unfortunately than other people.

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Speaker 2: Some people have additional adversity experiences in life, So we

427
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Speaker 2: think about adverse childhood experiences that just make it harder

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Speaker 2: for them psychologically to cope in life by no fault

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Speaker 2: of their own. I will also add to that that

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Speaker 2: the nature and the severity of the trauma can of

431
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Speaker 2: course impact how someone recovers from it. But there are

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Speaker 2: so many variances in all of that, right, Actually, one

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Speaker 2: more thing I will add. It's not just all the negatives, right,

434
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,160
Speaker 2: it's also the protective factors that someone has in place

435
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 2: that can help.

436
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 1: Right.

437
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:44,760
Speaker 2: How much support do they have in their life? Do

438
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 2: they have spaces to be able to talk about the

439
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 2: experiences that they've gone through, Do they have positive psychological

440
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:53,879
Speaker 2: resources that help them cope? You know, what are the

441
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 2: kind of protective factors that someone also has because that

442
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 2: can help them through the trauma.

443
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 1: For me, what I'm really curious about is there are

444
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 1: a lot of phrases being thrown around in pop culture, Like, yes,

445
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:09,959
Speaker 1: we spoke about just trauma, but more specifically terms like

446
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 1: let's say trauma bonding. You know, that's a term that

447
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:17,440
Speaker 1: gets thrown around a lot, and I'd love to unpack

448
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:20,399
Speaker 1: that with you. What actually is trauma bonding?

449
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:25,360
Speaker 2: Yes, so trauma bonding specifically comes up in the context

450
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 2: of relationships. So we're talking about trauma as it relates

451
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 2: to attachment between two people. And this is where there

452
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 2: is essentially some sort of pattern of abuse that is

453
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:41,399
Speaker 2: occurring in a relationship and it results in this very strong,

454
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 2: but very unhealthy emotional bond between two people. So there's

455
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 2: two main factors that constitute a trauma bond in a relationship.

456
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:56,200
Speaker 2: So one is this notion of a power imbalance, so

457
00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:01,680
Speaker 2: one person in the relationship has more power and control

458
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,879
Speaker 2: than the other person. The second part is that there's

459
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 2: this pattern that gets played out where the person with

460
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 2: power will do some quite nasty things towards the partner.

461
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:20,440
Speaker 2: But then they're also the person that kind of comes

462
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 2: to the rescue. So I'll give you an example what

463
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 2: I mean. Right, So say the person who has that

464
00:27:25,120 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 2: kind of power and control in the relationship says some

465
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 2: really nasty and derogatory comments to you know, their loved one.

466
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 2: They say, oh, what are you wearing that out for?

467
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 2: You look so ugly and that go and change. You

468
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 2: shouldn't be wearing that right, very nasty comments to make

469
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,680
Speaker 2: that person goes off. They cry, they're upset they've changed

470
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 2: their outfit. The abusive partner then comes back in and says, Oh,

471
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 2: don't cry, didn't mean it that way. Let me give

472
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 2: you a hug. You know you're beautiful. You know it's okay,

473
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 2: you can wear that original outfit. Right. So I'm just

474
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 2: giving one small example, but it's the person who kind

475
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 2: of inflicts the abuse but then also comforts the person.

476
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:06,880
Speaker 2: So people who are trauma bonded go through this roller

477
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 2: coaster in their relationship of highs and lows, and it's

478
00:28:11,120 --> 00:28:13,479
Speaker 2: through going through those highs and lows together that they

479
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,879
Speaker 2: form this really strong, but as I said, unhealthy bond

480
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 2: between the two of them, and it also makes it

481
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,200
Speaker 2: very hard to then leave that relationship.

482
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 1: And it also is very confusing too, because they're playing

483
00:28:26,120 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 1: both roles of the inflictor but then also the rescuer

484
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 1: or the solver exactly exactly.

485
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 2: And it doesn't just have to be between romantic partners.

486
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 2: It can be a parent and a child. This is

487
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:39,479
Speaker 2: also what we see a lot happen kind of in

488
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 2: cults or in like Stockholm syndrome, where someone sort of

489
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 2: develops this attachment for the person who is essentially keeping

490
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 2: them captive or abusing them in some way. So there's

491
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 2: a lot we can say about trauma bonding, but that's

492
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 2: just sort of the outline of it.

493
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 1: I feel like, just as you mentioned about cults, I'm like,

494
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 1: I feel like that's another whole episode. Oh yeah, yeah,

495
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:03,719
Speaker 1: So what about trauma dumping?

496
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 2: Trauma dumping again?

497
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 1: Is that a clinic.

498
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 2: I diagnosed you as trauma dumper? So again something that's

499
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 2: made its way into kind of pop culture. But I

500
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 2: guess we're referring to someone who has been through trauma,

501
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 2: is going through a hard time dealing with their trauma,

502
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 2: and obviously an understandably wants a space to talk about it,

503
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 2: but unfortunately what they do is sort of offload a

504
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 2: lot of that to friends or people in their life

505
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 2: without necessarily considering whether the person on the receiving end

506
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 2: in that moment has the kind of capacity or bandwidth

507
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 2: to actually receive all that trauma.

508
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 1: It's interesting because I feel like I've definitely been the

509
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 1: kind of person where, you know, this isn't me pumping

510
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 1: up my own tires here, but where I don't know,

511
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 1: I feel like a lot of people share a lot

512
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 1: of things with me, and which is lovely.

513
00:29:58,360 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 2: And then all good listener.

514
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 1: I'm a good listener, And it's an interesting one because

515
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 1: I mean, a lot of the time I don't mind it,

516
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 1: but I definitely I had a really tough period in

517
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 1: my life where emotionally, my capacity to listen to anything

518
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 1: was really hard. So it's interesting knowing what's the balance

519
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 1: between Okay, is this person trauma dumping or am I

520
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 1: just hearing them out? Which what I'm curious about too.

521
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 1: Is it more likely people that trauma dump is because

522
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 1: they're not getting the therapy that they need.

523
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 2: It could be, Yeah, it could be absolutely, they're obviously

524
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 2: finding some benefit in talking about it. Yeah, totally so,

525
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 2: But when we think about trauma dumping, it's very kind

526
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 2: of like one sided. It's often kind of out of

527
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 2: context as well, right, Like you might be catching up

528
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 2: with a friend at a cafe and like suddenly they're

529
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 2: talking about something really quite emotionally intense and in depth,

530
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 2: and there's like people sitting, like, you know, a half

531
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 2: meter away from you having their breakfast. So it's kind

532
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 2: of out of context, and it's a bit like without

533
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 2: consent as well. It's not like your person is saying, look, hey,

534
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 2: I've been going through tough times. You mind if we

535
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 2: have a bit of a chat about it. I'd really love,

536
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 2: you know, just for you to hear me out, or

537
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 2: for you to give me Europea on things like. It's

538
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 2: not with the consent of the other person. It's just

539
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 2: sort of you know, drops literally just dumping it on there. Yeah,

540
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 2: sometimes it can also happen, I will say, because the

541
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 2: person who's been through the trauma might actually be somewhat

542
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 2: detached or desensitized to the traumatic experience itself. So for

543
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 2: them it doesn't feel like an overly emotional thing for

544
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 2: them to talk about or overly it doesn't feel overly traumatic.

545
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 2: And I'm not saying that they're not traumatized. I'm saying

546
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 2: that their way of coping might have actually been to

547
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 2: shut off from those emotions. But so it doesn't actually

548
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 2: feel that different to them, kind of like you know,

549
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 2: talking casually about a random topic over a coffee versus

550
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 2: talking about something traumatic, because the emotional difference isn't there.

551
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 1: It kind of feels like in a way that you

552
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 1: kind of need to give a trigger warning before you

553
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 1: even have a conversation. Like let's say, you know, you're

554
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 1: at the cafe with your friend.

555
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, you need to ask the concent It's so

556
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 2: funny you talk about trigger warnings actually, because we certainly

557
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:15,959
Speaker 2: went through the phase where trigger warnings were, you know,

558
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 2: before podcasts at the started podcast at the scd pation.

559
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 1: Yeah.

560
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And if you notice nowadays, it's not really so

561
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 2: much of a thing because the research is actually not

562
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 2: there to support trigger warnings. You'll notice on this show

563
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,960
Speaker 2: we don't provide trigger warnings. Sometimes we'll just say to people,

564
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 2: you know, listen, mindfully, take care of yourself. But it's

565
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 2: not a trigger warning because actually the research has shown

566
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 2: that trigger warnings are not that effective and they can

567
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 2: actually have the opposite effect. They can actually increase anticipatory

568
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 2: anxiety for people who might have some lived experience relevant

569
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 2: to the topic before the content is actually sort of

570
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 2: said or shown, So it kind of creates this this

571
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 2: anticipatory anxiety before they even watch the show or listen

572
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 2: to the podcast. So actually it's a good reminder that

573
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 2: just because something intuitively sort of seems like it might

574
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 2: be a good idea, the research is not always there

575
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 2: to support that it is.

576
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 1: There. Doctor Anastasia is going to tell us why getting

577
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 1: the right kind of help for trauma is important and

578
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 1: how to do so. So where do we even start

579
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 1: when it comes to getting the right kind of help.

580
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 2: I'm a big advocate for going to your GP as

581
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 2: the first point of contact, right They're the professionals that

582
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 2: will be able to help point you in the right

583
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 2: direction to getting the treatment that you need. But it

584
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 2: may involve seeing either a psychologist or a psychiatrist, or

585
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 2: sometimes a combination of both, depending on whether you have

586
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 2: trauma PTSD complex PTSD. Depending on what the diagnosis specifically is,

587
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 2: the treatment that you receive will differ, and definitely in

588
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 2: this kind of takeaway part here, I'm not here to

589
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 2: tell anyone that you can cure your trauma in the

590
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 2: ten minutes that you're going to spend listening to this

591
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 2: next bit. Because trauma is complex, it's complicated, it's deeply personal.

592
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 2: It affects people in so many differ diferent ways and

593
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 2: really needs to be handled quite sensitively. The good news

594
00:34:14,839 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 2: is that we have a lot of evidence based treatments

595
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 2: that show good effect when it comes to healing from

596
00:34:22,319 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 2: trauma and treating PTSD.

597
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 1: So you mentioned before and a lot of your clinical

598
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:32,479
Speaker 1: work that you've helped people move through trauma is I

599
00:34:32,479 --> 00:34:34,959
Speaker 1: guess what I'm trying to say is like, how do

600
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:37,479
Speaker 1: you embrace life after trauma?

601
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:41,959
Speaker 2: Like? Can we yes? What does life after trauma look like?

602
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:42,879
Speaker 2: What can it look like?

603
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 1: Yeah?

604
00:34:43,399 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 2: Because it looks like a lot of different things. But

605
00:34:45,319 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 2: actually I like this conversation because there's something called post

606
00:34:48,439 --> 00:34:51,559
Speaker 2: traumatic growth, and I think this is important to bring

607
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 2: into the conversation because trauma gets talked about a lot,

608
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 2: but post traumatic growth doesn't necessarily get the same amount

609
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:02,759
Speaker 2: of airtime. No. So post traumatic growth was a term

610
00:35:02,799 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 2: that was coined by two psychologists, Richard Tedesky and Lawrence Kloon,

611
00:35:07,479 --> 00:35:09,879
Speaker 2: and they developed this idea in the nineties. And it

612
00:35:09,919 --> 00:35:12,879
Speaker 2: was this this notion that there are key areas in

613
00:35:12,919 --> 00:35:17,959
Speaker 2: a person's life where after experiencing trauma, they can actually

614
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:22,359
Speaker 2: have some positive moments of growth. And I kind of

615
00:35:22,359 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 2: want to say, revelation for themselves as well. So while

616
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:29,039
Speaker 2: this is not at all to invalidate or take away

617
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 2: the pain of the trauma itself, but as part of

618
00:35:32,759 --> 00:35:36,119
Speaker 2: going through that healing process of trauma, there can be

619
00:35:36,279 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 2: post traumatic growth, which is nice to know.

620
00:35:38,279 --> 00:35:41,919
Speaker 1: That is nice to know gives us hope. So what

621
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:45,039
Speaker 1: does post traumatic growth actually look like?

622
00:35:45,399 --> 00:35:48,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's broken down into kind of growth in

623
00:35:48,439 --> 00:35:52,279
Speaker 2: five different areas of a person's life. And what I

624
00:35:52,359 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 2: sometimes recommend people to do is not just kind of

625
00:35:55,799 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 2: think about these five areas for themselves, but actually maybe

626
00:35:59,319 --> 00:36:01,039
Speaker 2: kind of do a little bit of journaling and self

627
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:04,799
Speaker 2: reflection around these areas. So the first area that the

628
00:36:04,799 --> 00:36:09,759
Speaker 2: psychologists identified was around appreciation of life. So this is

629
00:36:09,799 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 2: the idea of someone kind of having this renewed sense

630
00:36:13,359 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 2: of gratitude for life. I mean, we hear this a

631
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,239
Speaker 2: lot from people who may have gone through you know,

632
00:36:19,359 --> 00:36:22,799
Speaker 2: near death experiences or very serious illnesses. You know, people

633
00:36:22,839 --> 00:36:26,159
Speaker 2: who've survived cancer things like this, where on the other

634
00:36:26,359 --> 00:36:30,320
Speaker 2: side of their treatment, they kind of have this new

635
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:33,959
Speaker 2: appreciation for life, This idea of like savor all the

636
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,599
Speaker 2: small moments because you don't know when you know they

637
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 2: might be taken away from you. So some of the

638
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,879
Speaker 2: questions you can kind of reflect on to help you

639
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 2: think about this. You know, are there any moments or

640
00:36:45,279 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 2: experiences in my life now that I value more deeply

641
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 2: post trauma as opposed to before my trauma? Are there

642
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 2: any things in my life that maybe I was taking

643
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:57,479
Speaker 2: for granted that now I can reflect on and go,

644
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:01,039
Speaker 2: you know what, I'm actually really grateful. I appreciate those

645
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:03,519
Speaker 2: small moments in my day, the things that I was,

646
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 2: you know, just kind of going through my day passing

647
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,359
Speaker 2: by and not thinking much about I really value and

648
00:37:08,399 --> 00:37:09,319
Speaker 2: appreciate them now.

649
00:37:10,479 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 1: It really does give you a new perspective.

650
00:37:12,759 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, So that's the first one about appreciation for life.

651
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:20,999
Speaker 2: The next one is about relationships and improved relationships. So

652
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:24,519
Speaker 2: some people might find that with post traumatic growth they

653
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:29,239
Speaker 2: have a greater sense of not just appreciation, but empathy

654
00:37:29,439 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 2: and compassion for others. Again, sometimes going through or witnessing

655
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:38,919
Speaker 2: something traumatic does shift our perspective, and it shifts our

656
00:37:38,959 --> 00:37:41,919
Speaker 2: perspective not just on life, but how we relate to

657
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 2: other people and how we feel about other people's suffering.

658
00:37:47,279 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 2: We all suffer in life. It's part of being human.

659
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:56,079
Speaker 2: We can't avoid it, but we can sometimes develop a

660
00:37:56,120 --> 00:38:00,439
Speaker 2: greater compassion for other people suffering. So you might ask

661
00:38:00,479 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 2: yourself questions to reflect on, like how have my relationships changed,

662
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:09,319
Speaker 2: perhaps for the better post trauma? How have I changed

663
00:38:09,359 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 2: in terms of how I I show up in relationships

664
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:14,439
Speaker 2: for the better post trauma? So again some kind of

665
00:38:14,479 --> 00:38:15,479
Speaker 2: prompts to reflect on.

666
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:18,199
Speaker 1: I love that. What about the third one?

667
00:38:18,799 --> 00:38:21,719
Speaker 2: The third one is all about new possibilities.

668
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:22,879
Speaker 1: I like that one.

669
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:26,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, So again we see that sometimes people during this

670
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:33,480
Speaker 2: post traumatic growth phase might consider new experiences, new hobbies,

671
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 2: new life paths that they hadn't considered before. It might

672
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:40,399
Speaker 2: be that they try out a new career, it might

673
00:38:40,479 --> 00:38:43,959
Speaker 2: be that they try new activities. There's this kind of openness,

674
00:38:44,279 --> 00:38:47,279
Speaker 2: you know, if we think about that personality structure that

675
00:38:47,319 --> 00:38:50,799
Speaker 2: we've talked about before, that personality trait around openness, we

676
00:38:50,919 --> 00:38:53,879
Speaker 2: find that in post traumatic growth some people might have

677
00:38:54,319 --> 00:38:57,320
Speaker 2: a new sense of openness to different things in their life.

678
00:38:57,399 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 2: So again you can kind of reflect on what new

679
00:39:00,359 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 2: interests or hobbies or opportunities could I discover in this

680
00:39:04,879 --> 00:39:09,759
Speaker 2: post traumatic growth phase. They're maybe kind of bigger pursuits

681
00:39:09,799 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 2: in my life life that I'd forught about or considered

682
00:39:12,839 --> 00:39:15,559
Speaker 2: prior to the trauma that now I feel like I

683
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:17,719
Speaker 2: have some sort of motivation to pursue further.

684
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:20,999
Speaker 1: It's really interesting and again it kind of I know

685
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 1: you already spoke to it around you know, it's not

686
00:39:22,799 --> 00:39:26,799
Speaker 1: around diluting, you know, or invaliding people's experiences of the

687
00:39:26,879 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 1: trauma traumatic events that they've gone through. But there was

688
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 1: something you mentioned before around this is happening to me

689
00:39:34,439 --> 00:39:37,359
Speaker 1: and a really a reframe as well on that is

690
00:39:37,399 --> 00:39:40,880
Speaker 1: also wise, this happening for me, and it's like, oh, okay,

691
00:39:40,919 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 1: what are the lessons I'm getting? And you know what

692
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 1: you're already speaking to is you know, this is a

693
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 1: renewed sense of purpose and perspective and character as well,

694
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:52,519
Speaker 1: which is it's really nice to see that side of

695
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:53,359
Speaker 1: the equation too.

696
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:57,439
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, absolutely, Okay, what about the fourth one. The

697
00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:01,039
Speaker 2: fourth one is all around personal strength. And when I

698
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:03,599
Speaker 2: say personal strength, I'm really kind of referring to these

699
00:40:03,799 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 2: internal characteristics around you know, resilience, a sense of being

700
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 2: able to to survive difficult things, right, these kind of

701
00:40:13,799 --> 00:40:15,879
Speaker 2: character strengths that we can lean on that go. You

702
00:40:15,879 --> 00:40:17,959
Speaker 2: know what, I'm really proud of myself for having these

703
00:40:18,399 --> 00:40:22,119
Speaker 2: personal character traits and these personal strengths. So you could

704
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:27,159
Speaker 2: ask yourself about what situations post trauma have I been

705
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 2: through where I've really kind of been impressed with myself

706
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:32,919
Speaker 2: or surprised myself with how well I've dealt with that,

707
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:35,039
Speaker 2: or how well I've coped with it, or I feel

708
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:37,359
Speaker 2: with how resilient I've been as a result of it,

709
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 2: or what sort of skills or qualities within myself have

710
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:44,439
Speaker 2: I further developed and refined. That I'm really proud of

711
00:40:44,479 --> 00:40:45,079
Speaker 2: myself for.

712
00:40:46,319 --> 00:40:48,439
Speaker 1: I love that. I mean, I'm really loving all of these.

713
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:51,919
Speaker 1: I'm actually really excited to do this maybe on my

714
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:52,559
Speaker 1: train ride.

715
00:40:52,919 --> 00:40:54,759
Speaker 2: Yes, do some journal out the journal?

716
00:40:54,799 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 1: Get out the journal, Okay.

717
00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 2: And then the last one is about kind of spiritual

718
00:41:00,879 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 2: or existential change. So when I say spiritual, I don't

719
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:07,440
Speaker 2: necessarily mean religious, although it can be for some people.

720
00:41:07,919 --> 00:41:12,919
Speaker 2: But it's this idea of some times something bigger than us, right,

721
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 2: this sense of having some sort of purpose in life,

722
00:41:16,959 --> 00:41:20,279
Speaker 2: that there's maybe something bigger than us in life, and

723
00:41:20,399 --> 00:41:23,559
Speaker 2: these existential thoughts that can come about that are not

724
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:26,799
Speaker 2: necessarily dark and scary but can actually be really helpful

725
00:41:26,839 --> 00:41:30,439
Speaker 2: for us. So this one is all about meaning, purpose

726
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 2: and values. As we come back to very often in

727
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 2: our chats, this kind of reframing of what are my values,

728
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:41,399
Speaker 2: What are the things that are deeply important to me?

729
00:41:41,799 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 2: How can I lean further into those into my life

730
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:48,679
Speaker 2: post trauma? What is my sense of purpose in life?

731
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:51,279
Speaker 2: Where do I find my purpose in life? How do

732
00:41:51,359 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 2: I find that? How do I lean into it? So

733
00:41:53,759 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 2: all these kind of bigger picture, more sometimes existential questions

734
00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 2: can be helpful for people to reflect on to feel

735
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:02,920
Speaker 2: that deeper sense of meaning post trauma.

736
00:42:03,919 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 1: It's like what they say around like how often you

737
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:11,800
Speaker 1: can find your purpose from? Yes as well?

738
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,759
Speaker 2: Yes? If I can share an example from one of

739
00:42:14,839 --> 00:42:17,440
Speaker 2: the best books I ever read, Man's Search for Meaning

740
00:42:17,839 --> 00:42:21,119
Speaker 2: by Victor Frankel. He's a psychiatrist in World War II.

741
00:42:21,319 --> 00:42:24,719
Speaker 2: He's in a Nazi concentration camp, and he has a

742
00:42:24,839 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 2: manuscript that he's written of a book, and he wants

743
00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:30,839
Speaker 2: to publish it and release it to the world. And

744
00:42:30,919 --> 00:42:34,680
Speaker 2: for him, this is this big sense of purpose and

745
00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 2: having that purpose psychologically helps him through all the trauma

746
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:43,399
Speaker 2: that he experiences. And then you know, post surviving the war,

747
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 2: he's able to kind of pursue that. But He talks

748
00:42:46,479 --> 00:42:49,559
Speaker 2: a lot about this sense of holding onto meaning and

749
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,999
Speaker 2: being able to find meaning during and post trauma as

750
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 2: a way to help us through it.

751
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:59,039
Speaker 1: After this shortbreak, we hear from a listener whose friend

752
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:01,719
Speaker 1: keeps trauma dumping on her and she's not sure what

753
00:43:01,879 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 1: to do. Stay with us.

754
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 2: Yabbib biby empowering serious Christian BRB having a crisis.

755
00:43:14,399 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 1: We've reached that time in our episode where we answer

756
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:19,999
Speaker 1: a question or dilemma from one of you, our listeners.

757
00:43:20,279 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 1: This dilemma comes from Tina.

758
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:25,279
Speaker 3: Every time my friend and I catch up, the conversation

759
00:43:25,439 --> 00:43:28,839
Speaker 3: turns heavy, she ends up traum dumping, and honestly, it's

760
00:43:28,879 --> 00:43:31,719
Speaker 3: starting to wear me down. I care about her and

761
00:43:31,799 --> 00:43:34,239
Speaker 3: I do want to be there, but I'm not always

762
00:43:34,319 --> 00:43:37,639
Speaker 3: in the right headspace to take on so much. Lately,

763
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:40,239
Speaker 3: it's been affecting my own mental health, and I'm not

764
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 3: sure how to bring it up without hurting her feelings

765
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:45,839
Speaker 3: or making her feel like I don't care. I just

766
00:43:45,879 --> 00:43:48,879
Speaker 3: need a bit of balance. How do I set boundaries

767
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:51,999
Speaker 3: without making her feel like I'm shutting her out?

768
00:43:52,479 --> 00:43:57,759
Speaker 2: Oh, Tina, Oh, this is hard, this is hard. Absolutely, Look,

769
00:43:58,399 --> 00:44:01,999
Speaker 2: I understand the situation that you're in. It sounds like

770
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:04,719
Speaker 2: you're a good friend because you keep catching up with her,

771
00:44:06,279 --> 00:44:09,359
Speaker 2: but you obviously want to balance your needs as well

772
00:44:09,399 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 2: as her needs. So look, I think if in doubt,

773
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:16,560
Speaker 2: have a conversation. That's kind of my takeaway here. Maybe

774
00:44:16,799 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 2: just choose a time and place to have a conversation

775
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:23,160
Speaker 2: with your friend about this. It's obviously a big topic

776
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:26,919
Speaker 2: and a sensitive topic for her, so approach it with sensitivity.

777
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:30,559
Speaker 2: But I would encourage you just sort of reflecting back

778
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:32,519
Speaker 2: to her a bit of what you've heard her say,

779
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:35,919
Speaker 2: you know, So like, look, I know you have been

780
00:44:35,919 --> 00:44:38,639
Speaker 2: going through a really hard time with your ex, through

781
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:41,239
Speaker 2: this divorce, and it's really all consuming, and you've been

782
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:43,080
Speaker 2: telling me a lot about it, right, So just like

783
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:46,359
Speaker 2: just tell her what she's been telling you so that

784
00:44:46,879 --> 00:44:51,919
Speaker 2: she knows you're listening, and then let her know your limits,

785
00:44:52,439 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 2: you know, lean into I love you as a friend,

786
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:57,719
Speaker 2: I want to be here to support you, but there

787
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:00,759
Speaker 2: are just some times where I don't have the capacity

788
00:45:01,759 --> 00:45:04,360
Speaker 2: to be that ear for you, to listen to what's

789
00:45:04,399 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 2: going on, or to be able to sort of provide

790
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:09,359
Speaker 2: you with the support and advice and guidance that you

791
00:45:09,439 --> 00:45:12,039
Speaker 2: perhaps you need. In that moment you know, I love you,

792
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:14,959
Speaker 2: but I can't always do it, and then kind of

793
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:18,519
Speaker 2: ask for some sort of shared understanding, right like, because

794
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:20,799
Speaker 2: this is some sort of like negotiation process you want

795
00:45:20,799 --> 00:45:23,160
Speaker 2: to you want to engage in, so you know, is

796
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:25,799
Speaker 2: it okay that if you feel like you want to

797
00:45:25,839 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 2: talk about the divorce and your ex, that you tell

798
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 2: me that that's what we're going to chat about, so

799
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:34,479
Speaker 2: that I can let you know if I've got capacity

800
00:45:34,919 --> 00:45:36,679
Speaker 2: in this day or in this moment to be able

801
00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:39,279
Speaker 2: to talk with you about it, And is it okay

802
00:45:39,319 --> 00:45:41,559
Speaker 2: if you sort of understand that maybe sometimes there's going

803
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:43,559
Speaker 2: to be situations where I've just got a lot going

804
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:45,479
Speaker 2: on in my own head that I'm not going to

805
00:45:45,479 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 2: be able to be that emotional support for you. To

806
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 2: see how she responds to that, you could also follow

807
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:54,439
Speaker 2: up with trying to help her find other supports, you know,

808
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 2: like other other friends or other people you can get support, advice,

809
00:45:58,279 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 2: guidance from. Have you considered talking to a professional about this?

810
00:46:02,439 --> 00:46:04,119
Speaker 2: You know there are other ways in which you can

811
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:06,319
Speaker 2: really look after you. Because I do care about you.

812
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 2: I just need to communicate with you that I have

813
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:09,399
Speaker 2: my limits too.

814
00:46:10,319 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 1: Luck Tina with the conversation. We know you're going to

815
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:20,719
Speaker 1: do so well. Atastasia, can you reiterate the main takeaways

816
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:21,999
Speaker 1: from today's episode?

817
00:46:22,279 --> 00:46:24,879
Speaker 2: So, first of all, it's important for us to understand

818
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:29,799
Speaker 2: what trauma is and what trauma isn't. Second, trauma can

819
00:46:29,799 --> 00:46:35,480
Speaker 2: develop into PTSD or complex PTSD. Third, sharing and talking

820
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 2: about trauma has a place in friendships and relationships, but

821
00:46:39,879 --> 00:46:43,440
Speaker 2: with boundaries. And lastly, if you get the right help,

822
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 2: you can overcome trauma and really thrive in your life.

823
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:49,359
Speaker 1: If you have a burning question for us, there's a

824
00:46:49,399 --> 00:46:51,359
Speaker 1: few ways to get in touch with us. Links are

825
00:46:51,359 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 1: in the show notes.

826
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 2: And remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't

827
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:59,040
Speaker 2: a diagnostic tool, and the advice and ideas we present

828
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 2: here should always take into account your personal medical history.

829
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:06,719
Speaker 2: The executive producer of But Are You Happy is Naima Brown.

830
00:47:06,959 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Charlie Blackman.

831
00:47:09,479 --> 00:47:12,799
Speaker 2: Sound design and editing by Jacob Brown. I'm a Shandy

832
00:47:12,879 --> 00:47:16,960
Speaker 2: Dante and I'm doctor Anastagia heronus. The names and stories

833
00:47:16,959 --> 00:47:19,559
Speaker 2: of clients discussed have been changed for the purpose of

834
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:24,160
Speaker 2: maintaining anonymity. If this conversation brought up any difficult feelings

835
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:26,799
Speaker 2: for you. We have links for more resources in the

836
00:47:26,799 --> 00:47:29,759
Speaker 2: show notes around the topics we discussed today. You can

837
00:47:29,799 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 2: also reach out to organizations like Lifeline or Beyond Blue

838
00:47:33,759 --> 00:47:37,359
Speaker 2: if you're wanting more immediate support. Tune in next week

839
00:47:37,439 --> 00:47:40,919
Speaker 2: to learn why rejection hurts so much and how we

840
00:47:40,919 --> 00:47:43,959
Speaker 2: can start challenging those negative thoughts it stirs up.

841
00:47:44,319 --> 00:47:46,279
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, See you next time.