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Speaker 1: As the saying goes, there are only two certainties in life,

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Speaker 1: death and taxes. But what if your death ends up

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Speaker 1: going down in history as amongst the most interesting, the

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Speaker 1: most confusing, or even surrounded by the most conspiracy theories.

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Speaker 1: For example, there's an irishman living in New York City

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen twenties and thirties. It's the depression era,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of people are out of work, homeless,

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Speaker 1: and finding whatever way they can to make it through

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Speaker 1: the day. For Mike mlloy, it was drinking. He would

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Speaker 1: go to the local speakeasy as often as he could

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Speaker 1: to drown out the woes life had handed him. To

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Speaker 1: the owner of the bar, though, Mike started to look

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Speaker 1: less and less like a patron and more and more

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Speaker 1: like some easy cash. The plan the bar owner and

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Speaker 1: his group of accomplices would hatch would lead to them

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Speaker 1: attempting to murder Mike mlloy once, twice, three times, and

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Speaker 1: more each time. The method of delay that death sentence

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Speaker 1: became more unhinged and elaborate. The problem for them was

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Speaker 1: that Mike malloy, who would go on to be nicknamed

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Speaker 1: Ian Michael Mike the durable through no effort of his

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Speaker 1: own simply could not or would not die. I'm Claire

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Speaker 1: Murphy and this is True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring

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Speaker 1: the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the people

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Speaker 1: who know the most about them. Today we're chadding to

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Speaker 1: the author of the book History's Strangest Deaths, Riley Knight.

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Speaker 1: He's lined up fifty tails spanning thousands of years of history,

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Speaker 1: of people who've taken the certainty of death and made

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Speaker 1: it a truly spectacular event, from Australia's disappearing Prime Minister

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Speaker 1: to a duke whose toilet run ended up rather more

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Speaker 1: spikier than he expected. Riley joins us now to take

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Speaker 1: us through some of his favorite ways to die. Riley,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us on True Crime Conversations.

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Speaker 1: I would like to kick off today's conversation because you

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Speaker 1: have written a book about strange deaths, and some of

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Speaker 1: them are natural causes, some of them very mysterious. But

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Speaker 1: seeing as we are true Crime Conversations, we want to

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Speaker 1: start off with things that were actual crimes, so I

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Speaker 1: would like to begin by talking about iron Mike Malloy.

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Speaker 2: Oh a well chosen. We're talking about crimes for sure.

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Speaker 1: So well, many many crimes committed against this one man.

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Speaker 1: But as a descendant myself of Irish malloy's, I know

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Speaker 1: they're made of pretty sturdy stuff. But can you give

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Speaker 1: us just a little idea of who Mike mlloy was

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Speaker 1: and where he was in the world at this time.

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Speaker 2: So I'm Mike mlloy was, as he says, an Irish feller,

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Speaker 2: and he immigrated to the United States, as many Irish

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Speaker 2: people did towards the end of the around the turn

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Speaker 2: of the twentieth century, sort of end of the nineteenth

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Speaker 2: early early twentieth century, obviously a huge amount of immigration

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Speaker 2: over to the Big Apple. And he picked up work

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Speaker 2: over there doing this and that. He's a firefighter at

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Speaker 2: one stage, worked in a couple of other jobs, but

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Speaker 2: unfortunately in his later years he fell on hard times

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Speaker 2: and ended up taking to the bottle, ended up homeless

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Speaker 2: as well. So the po was having a very rough

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Speaker 2: go of things. But he did like a drink, and

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Speaker 2: this tended to be how he would drown his sorrows.

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Speaker 2: And there was a group of rather unscrupulous blokes who

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Speaker 2: saw an opportunity in that. Right. There was this fellow

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Speaker 2: Tony Marino who owned a bar in New York City,

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Speaker 2: and he had actually successfully pulled off a life insurance

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Speaker 2: scam previously. Right. I'm not sure if this woman was

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Speaker 2: a patron of his at the bar or what have you,

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Speaker 2: but he essentially tricked her into signing life insurance documents

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Speaker 2: with him as the beneficiary, murdered her right by freezing

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Speaker 2: her to death, got her so drunk, left her in

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Speaker 2: her bedroom with the window open on a freezing night.

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Speaker 2: She froze. The death was deemed natural, right, and therefore

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Speaker 2: her life insurance paid out, and Marino ended up benefiting

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Speaker 2: from this. So obviously he's just seeing dollar signs when

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Speaker 2: he looks at this bloke Mike Malloy, thinking well, I

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Speaker 2: can pull a similar scheme with this fellow. But he

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Speaker 2: did take a obviously, you know that thing doesn't strike well,

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Speaker 2: it does strike twice, but you know, in a figurative sense,

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Speaker 2: lightning doesn't strike twice. He didn't want the He didn't

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Speaker 2: want to pull exactly the same scam and freeze Iron

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Speaker 2: Mike to death.

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Speaker 1: So look a little bit suspicious if that happened.

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Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, Yes, So he took a slightly different approach,

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Speaker 2: or many different approaches in trying to knock this bloke

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Speaker 2: off in fact.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so let's start at the beginning, because there were

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Speaker 1: many many attempts on Iron Mike Malloy's life. How did

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Speaker 1: they initially deem the correct way to knock him off

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Speaker 1: without raising too much suspicion.

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Speaker 2: Well, they thought, given that this bloke did love a drink, right,

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Speaker 2: they thought that that would be the sort of the

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Speaker 2: most natural way for you know, it wouldn't raise many

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Speaker 2: eyebrows if he was found to have sort of drank

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Speaker 2: himself to.

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Speaker 1: Death, right, like alcohol poisoning.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, essentially just just dying because of over consumption of alcohol.

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Speaker 2: So that was plan a right, So Marino invites him

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Speaker 2: into the bar and says, mate, drinks around the house.

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Speaker 2: Don't even worry about it. The bartender, whose name was

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Speaker 2: Joseph Murphy, just plied him with alcohol and then put

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Speaker 2: in front of him what he said was a political petition.

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Speaker 2: Right when you signed this for me, mate, thanks very much.

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Speaker 2: In fact, it was, as you probably guessed, a life

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Speaker 2: insurance policy was a life insurance policy document that Marino

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Speaker 2: and his other accomplices. They were later called the Murder Trust,

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Speaker 2: the sensational appellation that was given to them by the

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Speaker 2: other tabloids. They fronted the money for the life insurance premium, right,

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Speaker 2: and they continued to just give as much booze to

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Speaker 2: this bloke, Mike malloy as he could possibly chuck down

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Speaker 2: his hole. And this guy just drank and drank and drank,

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Speaker 2: like day in and day he'd come in, he would

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Speaker 2: drink himself insensible, pass out and then get up, stagger outside,

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Speaker 2: and come back the next day and do it again

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Speaker 2: and again. This guy was seemingly indestructible and an iron liver. Right,

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Speaker 2: This alcohol didn't It's not that it didn't touch it,

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Speaker 2: because again he was passing it and staggering out of

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Speaker 2: the bar as a choke, but it didn't kill him.

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Speaker 2: And after you know, quite some time, and obviously at

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Speaker 2: some cost as well.

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Speaker 1: I mean they've well, yeah, he's giving him free drinks, right,

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Speaker 1: free drinks.

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Speaker 2: The buzz well into the red here, and so it's

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Speaker 2: a big problem and they say, okay, we're gonna have

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Speaker 2: to up the ante here because clearly, right just plying

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Speaker 2: him with booze, he's not going to die of liver

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Speaker 2: fated and know what's going on with this bloke, but

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Speaker 2: is indestructible.

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Speaker 1: So stage two, what do they start to deploy?

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Speaker 2: So they start to adulterate the drinks a little bit.

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Speaker 2: They start to add a couple of extra ingredients to

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Speaker 2: turn his alcohol into what should have been, in their

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Speaker 2: minds at least lethal cocktails. Now, they made a slight

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Speaker 2: error in how they started this campaign because the first

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Speaker 2: thing that they added to his drinks was engine coolant. Right,

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Speaker 2: you'll often see in the I found this very interesting. Actually,

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Speaker 2: when I was researching this story, a lot of the

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Speaker 2: literature on it is American. Right, Obviously this's happened in America,

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Speaker 2: so there's a lot of American writing about it. And

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Speaker 2: so they talked to about how they added anti freeze

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Speaker 2: to the drinks, and I was trying to find stuff

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Speaker 2: about anti freeze, and I was like, what, it turns

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Speaker 2: out that antifreeze and engine coolant are the same thing.

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Speaker 2: You can put one liquid in a car engine that

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Speaker 2: both prevents it from overheating and prevents it from freezing.

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Speaker 2: There's just there's just one liquid that does that, Like this.

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Speaker 1: Some wild chemical compound going on.

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Speaker 2: Well, there's another very interesting chemical attribute of anti freeze

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Speaker 2: or engine coolant. It's poisonous. Obviously, it'll like, don't drink it,

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Speaker 2: it'll kid you. It goes in the car, it doesn't

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Speaker 2: go and you go. Except an antide, You're not gonna

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Speaker 2: believe this. An antidote to engine cool and anti freeze.

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Speaker 2: Anti freeze poisoning is alcohol. Alcohol counteracts the effects of

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Speaker 2: ethanol poisoning, right apparently, which is the main one of

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Speaker 2: the main ingredients in this in this substance. And so

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Speaker 2: what they were doing essentially is mixing poison into a

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Speaker 2: glass of antidote, which they then served to this bloke.

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Speaker 2: And then so they're scratching there, why is this killing him?

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Speaker 1: So iron Mike is just still happily drinking a way

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Speaker 1: none the wiser.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it didn't even seem to be I don't know,

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Speaker 2: I mean maybe was his taste buds were so shot

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Speaker 2: that he didn't notice the adulteration whatsoever. But yeah, after that,

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Speaker 2: I mean, look, this bloke again had had an incredible

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Speaker 2: constitution because after the engine cool and failed, they started

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Speaker 2: to put turpentine in his drinks equine liniment, right, a

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Speaker 2: heat rub for horses. They put rat poison in his drinks.

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Speaker 2: They put wood alcohol. That wood alcohol will kill you

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Speaker 2: so fast. Right, if you drink wood alcohol, you will

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Speaker 2: go blind and then you will die.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: But again it's filled with ethanol, and alcohol is an

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Speaker 2: antidote to this.

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Speaker 1: So nearly everything they're giving him is counteracted by the alcohol.

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Speaker 2: I don't know why he didn't die with the rat poisoning, right,

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Speaker 2: Like I understand he's not a rat, it's not designed

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Speaker 2: to kill it. But rat poison is pretty lethal. You know.

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Speaker 2: I've tried it myself. I haven't conclusively discovered this, but

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Speaker 2: I'll read the label, the warning and I'll take the

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Speaker 2: word for it. But no, all of this stuff that

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Speaker 2: was put into his drinks, it's still just didn't kill him.

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Speaker 1: So they must be getting desperate by this stage because,

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Speaker 1: as we mentioned before, they're now paying premiums to the

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Speaker 1: insurance company. He's drinking the bar dry every night, so

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Speaker 1: they are losing money on this. Un now, yes, Yd,

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Speaker 1: so they get desperate, like what are they what's their

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Speaker 1: next step?

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Speaker 2: Well, as I say in the book, it seems to

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Speaker 2: be that this is the point that they got to

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Speaker 2: the no bad ideas stage of conspiracy. Because one of

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Speaker 2: the guys in the murder Trust he claimed to have

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Speaker 2: seen someone die after eating like thirty oysters and washing

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Speaker 2: them down with whiskey.

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Speaker 1: Okay, he was.

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Speaker 2: Like, well, I don't know, man, maybe like oysters and

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Speaker 2: whiskey is lethal, who knows. So they tried that, going

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Speaker 2: by a bunch of oysters right and fed in them

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Speaker 2: and gave him wisky. That didn't work. They made him

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Speaker 2: a sandwich with rotten sardines, right, sprinkled with a little

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Speaker 2: bit of rat poisoning, you know, just just.

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Speaker 1: Fased good measure, yep.

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Speaker 2: And then also, like a Looney Tunes cartoon, put some

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Speaker 2: carpet tax in the sandwich as well. Mike just ate

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Speaker 2: it and didn't seem like they just didn't it just

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Speaker 2: didn't touch him, like I guess you know he was

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Speaker 2: that drunk or that hungry the night is this guy

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Speaker 2: made of I Look, he was very well, he was

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Speaker 2: very deserving of the nickname that he got later on

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Speaker 2: Iron Mike, right, Like, this guy was seemingly untouchable. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: none of this has worked, right, the sardines, the rat poison,

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Speaker 2: the carp attacks, the horse liniment, the turpentine, the wood alcohol, like,

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Speaker 2: none of this has worked. And so at this point

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Speaker 2: Marino goes right, Okay, look, I'll tell you what does work, right, buggaret,

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Speaker 2: buddy getting suspicious with the authorities. I'll tell you what

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Speaker 2: does work. Freezing him to death. We've done that before,

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Speaker 2: would do it again, yep. So the next stage, right,

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Speaker 2: they got him drunk again. He passed out. They soaked

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Speaker 2: him with water. This is in the middle of winter

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Speaker 2: in New York, so that's freezing cold, snow's coming down.

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Speaker 2: Soaked him with water, dumped him in a park, right,

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Speaker 2: and left him to essentially die, And the life insuring

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Speaker 2: they looked a little closely, they'd see that Marino was

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Speaker 2: once again the beneficiary of a life insurance where this

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Speaker 2: guy had frozen a death, just like the other life beforehand.

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Speaker 2: But this guy, like at this point, they just need

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Speaker 2: him dead, so they'll do whatever they can. Except that's

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Speaker 2: a rather bad fortune because they dumped him in a

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Speaker 2: park where he was found by passing police officers who obviously,

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Speaker 2: you know, were concerned for this bloke or perhaps you know,

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Speaker 2: not happy with him his vagrancy, And so they took

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Speaker 2: him back to the station where he warmed up, survived,

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Speaker 2: and then headed back to the bar the next day

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Speaker 2: to keep stuck in the drinks down.

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Speaker 1: What is this like attempt ten? Now, like, how many

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Speaker 1: attempts of his life has he actually survived?

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Speaker 2: By this point, they have run out of space on

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Speaker 2: the white board at this stage, right, so they like

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Speaker 2: plan E, Plan F, Plan G, plan HS like they're

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Speaker 2: running out of letters. Yeah, at this stage they hire

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Speaker 2: they bring a fifth member in to the murder trust,

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Speaker 2: a cab driver, right, who had the sufficient moral flexibility

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Speaker 2: to come on board with their plan. And they took

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Speaker 2: a very straightforward approach to they still needed. Obviously, they

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Speaker 2: couldn't just shoot him or stab him, right because then

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Speaker 2: suspicious circumstances, they're not going to get life insurance pout.

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Speaker 2: But what if he was just like accidentally hit by

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Speaker 2: a car.

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Speaker 1: I mean he's a drunk, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he's drunk, he's stumbling home, right, So what they

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Speaker 2: did is essentially staged a well, they staged a hit

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Speaker 2: and run. But they again were very, very determined to

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Speaker 2: make sure this guy was dead. So after taking him

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Speaker 2: out into the street, getting the guy with the taxi

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Speaker 2: to run over him, that he then backed over him

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Speaker 2: as well, which is not what a lot of hit

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Speaker 2: and run drivers now. I don't know, anyway, they really

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Speaker 2: did their best to make sure that he was dead.

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Speaker 2: But surprise, surprise, he survived. He was taken to hospital

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Speaker 2: and he lived to fight another day. The blokes in

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Speaker 2: the murder Trust, after having taken him outside run over

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Speaker 2: him with the taxi twice. They're looking in the papers, right,

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Speaker 2: trying to find the death notice, trying to find the obituar.

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Speaker 2: You know, sadly Mike order didn't come, and so they

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Speaker 2: don't know what to do. They don't know where he's got,

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Speaker 2: they don't know that he's survived, they don't know that

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Speaker 2: he's in the hospital. It is weeks later, right that

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Speaker 2: molloy walks back into the bar, cheerful as anything. How

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Speaker 2: about a drink? Boys, right, because he has this offer

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Speaker 2: of I mean, they've been playing with him with free

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Speaker 2: booze for weeks now, right, Why wouldn't he go straight

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Speaker 2: back there and have a drink after getting a discharge

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Speaker 2: from hospital.

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Speaker 1: So he has no inkling that we know of at

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Speaker 1: this stage that these men are the ones who are

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Speaker 1: trying to knock him off.

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Speaker 2: Well, look, look, I don't know, it doesn't seem like it,

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Speaker 2: or maybe the siren call of an open bar was

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Speaker 2: just too much for him to ignore, But he did

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Speaker 2: continue to go back to this bar, and he did

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Speaker 2: continue to be served these drinks. Is as you know,

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Speaker 2: these blokes were trying to figure out a way to

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Speaker 2: kill him. But in the end they finally they did

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Speaker 2: something that put the whole thing beyond any form of doubt, right,

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Speaker 2: And it is unfortunate because obviously it's been a terrific

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Speaker 2: tale so far, but we all know that it was

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Speaker 2: going to come to a tragic end. And sadly, Mike

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Speaker 2: mulloy he did die when they again got him so

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Speaker 2: drunk that he passed out. They took him upstairs, they

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Speaker 2: took a hose from like a gas forrcet, taped it

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Speaker 2: into his mouth and essentially made him breathe in gas

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Speaker 2: while passed out until until unfortunately, he did die, and

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Speaker 2: he was there in front of it like they were

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Speaker 2: sure of it this time, right, they watched him die, right,

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Speaker 2: this time it's yeah, okay, he's dead. And then what

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Speaker 2: they then had to do was payoff a shonky doctor

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Speaker 2: to sign off on a dodgy death certificate saying that

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Speaker 2: he had died of pneumonia. And then right they went

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Speaker 2: to the life insurance company with this death certificate and

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Speaker 2: they received the payer. At the end of all of this,

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Speaker 2: the murder Trust did get their payday because they accepted

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Speaker 2: the doctor's note. They said, Okay, this guy's died of pneumonia,

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Speaker 2: fair enough, nothing suspicious about that, you know, being very quickly,

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Speaker 2: I just don't. Let's not get to a current or

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Speaker 2: anything like that. That's fine, But it's interesting that you

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Speaker 2: say before, why wasn't this guy suspicious? Right now? Look,

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Speaker 2: he's an older fella. He's had a fair few drinks

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Speaker 2: in him over his time. Maybe he's not in the

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Speaker 2: sort of the clearest frame of mind to be thinking

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Speaker 2: critically about what's going on to But I'll tell you

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Speaker 2: who were the cops the police at this stage, right,

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Speaker 2: they've heard rumors about this guy who because obviously the

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Speaker 2: story is spreading about this guy who's just drinking like

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Speaker 2: a fish every night. Oh, he's got hit by a car.

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Speaker 2: He got picked up by the cops for being left

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Speaker 2: in the freezing.

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Speaker 1: So they're starting to go, hang on.

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Speaker 2: A minute, they're starting to piecings together.

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Speaker 1: This is starting to look sas right.

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Speaker 2: And when it was announced that this guy had died,

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Speaker 2: right when when the I don't know, the paperwork for

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Speaker 2: the dead the death to whatever else was officially lodged.

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Speaker 2: The cops like, right, okay, we need to look into this.

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Speaker 2: So before his corpse can be disposed of once and

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Speaker 2: for all, the police step in. They order a full

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Speaker 2: like coronial investigation into this guy's death, and of course

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Speaker 2: the coroner immediately finds that he didn't die of pneumonia.

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Speaker 2: He died because he had essentially been gassed. So the

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Speaker 2: ill gotten gains of the murder Trust was not long enjoyed.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't long before these guys would I mean, look,

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Speaker 2: very clear trail of evidence, right, okay, who could have

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Speaker 2: possibly done this to him? Was it the guy who

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Speaker 2: owned the bar where he was drinking, who was also

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Speaker 2: a beneficiary of his life? Well, and impossible to determine.

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Speaker 2: Let's go to lunch, you know, so, very very quick

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Speaker 2: and clear path to the perpetrators here, the murder Trust.

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Speaker 2: They were all rounded up and they were sent to

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Speaker 2: New York's infam a sing sing prison, and eventually they

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Speaker 2: had a scheduled appointment with the electric chair. So that

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Speaker 2: was the end of them. They did receive. I suppose

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Speaker 2: they're just deserts for their attempt to kill this fella.

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Speaker 2: But it's incredible to think that he survived. It's a

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Speaker 2: good thing he wasn't put in the electric chair because

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Speaker 2: he would have knocked out, you know, the power grid

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Speaker 2: in New York City if they've tried to blast him.

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Speaker 1: So that's the legacy he leaves behind as Iron Mike then, right,

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Speaker 1: the man who was essentially indestructible. So I guess he's

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Speaker 1: become a bit of a legend for that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and there. I mean, obviously, at the time when

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Speaker 2: the story broke, there was a huge amount of coverage

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Speaker 2: in the papers. It was a sensational story. Right. The

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Speaker 2: news has had an absolute field day with this because

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Speaker 2: it had everything that people I mean, there's murder and

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Speaker 2: intrigue and there was there were plots and schemes and

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Speaker 2: money and all that sort of stuff on the line.

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Speaker 2: So people love this story, and there's there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of stuff that was written about it, both at the

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Speaker 2: time and in the years since. Right, But you can't like,

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Speaker 2: I found it really interesting while researching the story to

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Speaker 2: go back and read all of those newspaper reports because

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Speaker 2: you know, you watch old newsreels and no the people

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Speaker 2: are talking like this and O news today and you're

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Speaker 2: sort of a Matt that you can hear that voice

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Speaker 2: in the way that the terrible shocking news today from

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Speaker 2: New York City, when it was like it's there's a

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Speaker 2: there's a real I mean, we have sensational, sensationalist journalism today, right,

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Speaker 2: but man, one hundred years ago, they really know it.

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Speaker 2: They knew what they were. It was sensational media. They

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Speaker 2: really they loved.

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Speaker 1: A bit of drama. You're listening to True Crime Conversations

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Speaker 1: with me, Claire Murphy. I'm speaking with Riley Knight about

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Speaker 1: some of history's strangest deaths. Up next, we discussed the

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Speaker 1: death of Australian Prime Minister Harold Holt and the suspicious

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Speaker 1: way in which he went missing. Let's move on and

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Speaker 1: bring it a little bit closer to home, because there

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Speaker 1: is a death yere in Australia which whilst I think

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Speaker 1: legally it's considered accidental, there's a lot of conspiracy theorists

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Speaker 1: who believe it's actually a crime. Of course, we are

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Speaker 1: talking about the death of Prime Minister Harold Holt. Can

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Speaker 1: you before we get into what happened to him, just

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Speaker 1: give us an idea, because obviously he's before many of

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Speaker 1: our times. What kind of Prime minister was he what

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Speaker 1: legacy did he leave politically behind him?

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Speaker 2: So Prome Minister Harol Holt came in at a time

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Speaker 2: where the Australian Liberal Party, which confusingly for any international

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Speaker 2: listeners is our conservative party. The Liberal Party under Robert

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Speaker 2: Menzies right, our longest serving PM, had been in power

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Speaker 2: for a very very long time, right, And in this

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Speaker 2: post war period, the Australian Liberal Party really established itself

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Speaker 2: as this sort of center right political bastion, which obviously

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Speaker 2: it still is today. But Holt, while a member of

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Speaker 2: the Liberal Party, was a little more progress in his outlook, right,

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Speaker 2: and he sort of dragged Australia kicking and screaming into

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Speaker 2: the twentieth century, which was, you know, obviously high time

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Speaker 2: for such a thing, given it was the nineteen sixties.

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Speaker 2: But he actually did a lot of good work domestically

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Speaker 2: in unpicking some of Australia's more backwards political institutions. Right,

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Speaker 2: he did important work in unpicking the White Australia policy,

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Speaker 2: which would later on going to be properly abolished in

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Speaker 2: the nineteen seventies. And generally speaking, again while still a

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Speaker 2: member of the Liberal Party, had a political legacy that

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Speaker 2: does reflect on him pretty well by today's standards, although

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Speaker 2: not when it comes to his foreign policy, which was

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Speaker 2: an absolute disaster because he was involved with US President

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Speaker 2: Lyndon B. Johnson's campaigns in Vietnam, there was a controversy

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Speaker 2: about conscription, so as something of a mixed legacy, although

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Speaker 2: I think you know, the work that he did in

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Speaker 2: tackling some of the systemic and institutionalized racism in this

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Speaker 2: country throughout the sixties obviously reflects very well on in him,

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Speaker 2: even if his international policy or foreign policy record isn't

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Speaker 2: isn't necessarily the best. So an interesting and sometimes divisive

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Speaker 2: figure in Australian history, but also so much of his

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Speaker 2: political legacy is completely overshadowed by his well he's not

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Speaker 2: even his death, his disappearance, of course, well.

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Speaker 1: We don't ever have it confirmed because nobody has ever

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Speaker 1: been found.

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Speaker 2: That's it. We don't actually know for sure. What we

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Speaker 2: can make a good guess, But again, there are plenty

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Speaker 2: of people out there who have more interesting I guess

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Speaker 2: you could say theories about what this guy's fate may

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Speaker 2: have actually been.

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Speaker 1: Well, this is interesting because he has become the bart

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Speaker 1: of a lot of jokes and one monumental one which

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Speaker 1: we'll discuss later. But I often see on social media

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Speaker 1: feeds now Americans when they discover this story, 'll like,

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Speaker 1: excuse me, Australia, please explain how you lost a whole

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Speaker 1: prime minister, Like, please explain.

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Speaker 2: We misplaced him. Yeah, he sort of fell between the

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Speaker 2: couch cushions of history and we never saw him again.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about what actually happened the day he disappeared.

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Speaker 2: Yes, right, So Harold Holt, even as an older fellow, right,

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Speaker 2: was a very keen swimmer. Love to swim. He would

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Speaker 2: often go out in the surf and in Southern Victoria,

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Speaker 2: on the coast of Southern Victoria had a number of

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Speaker 2: spots that he he loved to go and favorite hornsity

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Speaker 2: going swim in the surf and do it as spear fishing,

431
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:23,200
Speaker 2: that sort of thing. There's actually there's a pretty famous

432
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,000
Speaker 2: photo of him, I think holding a spear gun. Right,

433
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:28,479
Speaker 2: he's the he's got the flippers on everything. So he

434
00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:30,320
Speaker 2: was very much into that sort of thing. So the

435
00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:32,280
Speaker 2: point I'm trying to make it very strong swimmer, very

436
00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,959
Speaker 2: comfortable in the water. Anyway, one day he's down at

437
00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:39,280
Speaker 2: Chevy at beach on the Victorian coastline and it's a

438
00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:41,239
Speaker 2: very rough day out in the surf. He's down there

439
00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,720
Speaker 2: with some mates and they decide, well, he decides that

440
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:45,239
Speaker 2: he wants to go in for a dip. Right now,

441
00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:47,439
Speaker 2: this isn't surprising. Again, we know that he loves to swim.

442
00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:49,639
Speaker 2: The others they all look at the conditions. They're like, oh,

443
00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:51,960
Speaker 2: dun know about this, Harold mate. Doesn't doesn't look like

444
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:54,399
Speaker 2: the day for it. One of his other friends decides

445
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,240
Speaker 2: to come into the water with him, right but again,

446
00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,520
Speaker 2: rough surf, poor conditions. It is a little bit dangerous.

447
00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:01,919
Speaker 2: Holt however, but his famous quote was I know this

448
00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:05,600
Speaker 2: beach like the back of my hand. However, he gets

449
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:07,320
Speaker 2: in the water with this other fellow. This other fella

450
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:09,200
Speaker 2: very quickly realized, okay, I'm not up to this task.

451
00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:12,800
Speaker 2: He comes out of the surf that Holt remained in

452
00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:17,160
Speaker 2: the water and was caught by a rip. Right now,

453
00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:20,560
Speaker 2: Australians listening will know how deadly rips can be. They

454
00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,359
Speaker 2: are one of the leading causes of accidental death in

455
00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:25,600
Speaker 2: the water. So what happens is a rip is a

456
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,159
Speaker 2: sort of very strong outward current that will pull you

457
00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:32,199
Speaker 2: away from the beach and it's terrifying being caught in one.

458
00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:33,760
Speaker 2: And your first instinct is, oh, I need to swim

459
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:35,400
Speaker 2: back to shore right, But if you do that, you're

460
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:37,159
Speaker 2: swimming against the current. What you need to do is

461
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,159
Speaker 2: actually swim parallel to the beach itself. You need to

462
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:41,800
Speaker 2: swim out of the rip to the left or to

463
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,000
Speaker 2: the right and then you can let the waves carry

464
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:45,520
Speaker 2: you back in. But it's terrifying to be caught in

465
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:45,800
Speaker 2: the rip.

466
00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:48,880
Speaker 1: And we would presume that being the very strong swimmer

467
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,840
Speaker 1: and knowledgeable ocean man that he was at howld Holt

468
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:53,480
Speaker 1: would probably have known that information.

469
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:56,080
Speaker 2: And this is the most confusing thing is because if

470
00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:57,960
Speaker 2: he had been caught in well, when he was caught

471
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,640
Speaker 2: in this rip, given the experience he had choppy when

472
00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:02,840
Speaker 2: rough orders like this, he would have known what to do, right,

473
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:04,760
Speaker 2: he would have known how to safely exit the rip.

474
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:08,359
Speaker 2: But he didn't and he was dragged out to sea

475
00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 2: and he was never seen again. Now, in the days

476
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:16,960
Speaker 2: that followed, the weeks that followed, there were huge efforts

477
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:18,320
Speaker 2: put on, of course to find I mean, he's our

478
00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:24,600
Speaker 2: prime minister, right, second to the Australian Test cricket captain right,

479
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:28,320
Speaker 2: he is the most important bloke in the country. So

480
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:31,159
Speaker 2: there's a huge rescue effort to try to find him.

481
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,200
Speaker 2: There's choppers going up in the air above the water.

482
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:37,199
Speaker 2: There are divers going into these awful conditions, right, some

483
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:39,320
Speaker 2: of the bravest people you can imagine, going in to

484
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:42,280
Speaker 2: try to search for Harold Holt in these terrible choppy waters.

485
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:47,040
Speaker 2: But days and days passed and no sign, no sign whatsoever,

486
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:49,760
Speaker 2: not a scrap of evidence was found as to what

487
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 2: happened to Harold Holt. He was dragged out into the

488
00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 2: sea and as I say, was never seen again, and

489
00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:02,800
Speaker 2: we have never conclusively determined what actually happened to him. Obviously,

490
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,920
Speaker 2: there's you know, the base assumption is that he sadly

491
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 2: just drowned. But as you've already mentioned, there are there

492
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 2: are a couple of interesting conspiracy theories that have emerged

493
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 2: over the over the years.

494
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,560
Speaker 1: Well, let's explore those, because, like you're right, we would

495
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,119
Speaker 1: naturally presume that he's been swept out to sea, and

496
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 1: the ocean is a very big body of water and

497
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,359
Speaker 1: things do go missing, never to be seen again. The

498
00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:25,720
Speaker 1: fact that nothing has ever washed ashore anywhere ever again

499
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 1: is strange, but not unheard of.

500
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 2: No, certainly, right, Like you can like corpses whatever else

501
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 2: detried us in the in the sea can just get

502
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 2: lost in the eddies of the ocean and you know,

503
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:39,520
Speaker 2: just eating my fish, sink to the bottom or whatever. Like.

504
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 2: It's it's not a guarantee that you're going to have

505
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 2: a body returned to shore yet exactly.

506
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,160
Speaker 1: However, there are some people who think, and you mentioned

507
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 1: that there was some controversy within his Prime ministerialship about

508
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:54,119
Speaker 1: his involvement or bringing Australia into the Vietnam War, how

509
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 1: does that tie into what happened that day? What's the

510
00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,120
Speaker 1: conspiracy theory about what happened to him?

511
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,359
Speaker 2: Well, certainly there there are a great many, right, they're

512
00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 2: all the usual ones as aliens, as lizard people, all

513
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:05,879
Speaker 2: that sort of stuff. But some of the ones that

514
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:08,360
Speaker 2: perhaps a little more well at least there's a threat

515
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:12,920
Speaker 2: of logic running through them. We know that the CIA was, say,

516
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:17,159
Speaker 2: was interventionalist sometimes in foreign affairs when they felt the

517
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 2: need to be. And some people have sort of you know,

518
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:21,360
Speaker 2: they've got the red string out and they have put

519
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 2: together this sort of Pepe Sylvia like assembly of evidence

520
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:30,919
Speaker 2: that suggests that the CIA right, unhappy with Holt and

521
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:34,399
Speaker 2: his deeply unpopular approach because obviously, you know, the Vietnam

522
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:36,359
Speaker 2: issue in Australia was massive. There may be some listeners

523
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 2: who are old enough to remember how much of an

524
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,880
Speaker 2: issue it was, right conscription, being sent off to fight

525
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:42,200
Speaker 2: in a war that we really had no skin in

526
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 2: the game, all of that sort of stuff. And Holt

527
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:48,919
Speaker 2: was a supporter of the United States and President Johnson's

528
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,680
Speaker 2: campaigning in Vietnam. But there are those who put forward

529
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:54,720
Speaker 2: the idea that the CIO felt that he couldn't be

530
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,159
Speaker 2: trusted and felt that he was not the man for

531
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 2: the job to lead Australia when it comes to maintaining

532
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 2: ongoing support for this American campaign in South and Southeast Asia.

533
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:07,120
Speaker 2: So I don't as a historian, I don't particularly give

534
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 2: this theory very much credence. I'll make that clear. I

535
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 2: don't think this is what happened, But conspiracy theories like

536
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 2: this are always interesting to discuss and look into. And

537
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 2: some people put forward the idea that this was a

538
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 2: CIA hit job, right, and that he was essentially assassinated

539
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 2: by the CIA. I don't know how they managed to

540
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:29,400
Speaker 2: do this. I don't know how they managed to engineer

541
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 2: a rip on Chevy at Beach on the day that

542
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,640
Speaker 2: he happened. But hey, listen, there is plenty of evidence

543
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 2: out there about the CIA having done absolutely mental stuff

544
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 2: in trying to knock off world leaders, right, like the

545
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 2: number of times they tried to assassinate for del Castro,

546
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:44,359
Speaker 2: this guy, I don't know if you heard of this

547
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 2: for del Castro, Right, he also loved diving. He loved

548
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,239
Speaker 2: to go and collect conch shells, right, like beautiful con

549
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,159
Speaker 2: shells from the bottom of the of the sea in Cuba.

550
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 2: The CIA tried to hatch a plot where they would poison, right,

551
00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 2: put contact poison on conch shells that he would then

552
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 2: dive tow pick up and be poisoned by it, like

553
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 2: touch them and die as a result of that. They

554
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 2: tried he loved ice cream, so they tried to poison

555
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 2: his ice cream. They tried to send them exploding cigars,

556
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 2: right Like. The CIA have done some really really out

557
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,160
Speaker 2: there stuff in trying to fulfill their policy objectives.

558
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 1: So it's not out of the realms of possibility that

559
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 1: they could have organized something like this.

560
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 2: Look, if it emerged that there were some strong evidence

561
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 2: that this this sort of thing had happened, it wouldn't

562
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 2: be like, wow, that was out of character. I guess

563
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 2: that's the way that I put it. It's not it

564
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 2: wouldn't be completely out of the field. Having said that,

565
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:34,159
Speaker 2: there is not much concrete evidence that has ever emerged

566
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 2: for this. And look, I don't mind talking about these

567
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 2: conspiracy theories and sort of having, you know, having a

568
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 2: bit of a chuckle at them, but I I sort

569
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:43,160
Speaker 2: of do feel I need to once once again reiterate

570
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 2: that there there is not a lot of historical evidence

571
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:50,159
Speaker 2: for this. Another very popular conspiracy theory, this one is

572
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 2: a little bit more ludicrous, was that he was picked

573
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:57,120
Speaker 2: up by a Chinese submarine, he did a deal with defected, Yeah,

574
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,200
Speaker 2: he defected to the CCP and when and lived the

575
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:04,439
Speaker 2: rest of these days, you know, in bliss in China. Again,

576
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 2: not a whole lot of evidence for that, but people

577
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,159
Speaker 2: do like to put these theories together, and even if

578
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 2: there isn't necessarily a huge amount of evidence for them, again,

579
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,119
Speaker 2: they are pretty funny to explore.

580
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 1: So well, I guess we have to end his story

581
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:22,159
Speaker 1: with the joke that is on him, with the dedication,

582
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,440
Speaker 1: because this is when people who don't live in Australia

583
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: find out that this happened. I think it really paints

584
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 1: a picture for them of what the Australian sense of

585
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 1: humor is actually like. So please explain what we dedicated

586
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 1: to the now presumed deceased Harold Holt.

587
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 2: So obviously there was a period of you know, it

588
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 2: was a national shock and mourning for the loss of

589
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 2: a prime minister, and internationally too as well. This bloke

590
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 2: was known across the world stage. Mean, it was the

591
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 2: head of government. Of course he was going to be

592
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 2: His loss was going to be acknowledged internationally, and once

593
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 2: all the memorials and the ceremonies and all that sort

594
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 2: of stuff we're done. A bunch of different things were

595
00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 2: named after him, as you'd expect this. I think there's

596
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 2: a suburb in Canberra named after him. Yeah right, there's

597
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 2: even a US warship, right, I guess, in some way

598
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 2: acknowledging his contribution to the ongoing US campaigning. There is

599
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 2: the USS Harold Holt. But all of these things, right,

600
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 2: that's what you'd expect, suburbs, warships, whatever. I was very boring, right,

601
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 2: of course, of course you're going to name that sort

602
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 2: of stuff after him. In his own electorate in Melbourne.

603
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 2: Right out in glen Iris, there was a certain local

604
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 2: government facility, shall we say, a recreational center that was

605
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 2: undergoing a refurbishment of renovation at the time, and when

606
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 2: it reopened as a fitting tribute, a symbol, a way

607
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 2: to honor our fallen prime minister, the local government in

608
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 2: Glarus they decided to rename this recreational center after Harold Holt.

609
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 2: But to be a bit more specific, when I say

610
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 2: recreational center, I can tell you that this recreational center

611
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 2: was and still is a swimming pool, and it is

612
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 2: still called the Harold Holt Memorial Swimming Center to this day.

613
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 2: You can take the tram out to glen Iris and

614
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 2: you can go and have a swim in a pool

615
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 2: named after I am Australian Prime minister who drowned.

616
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 1: Yep. And that says a lot about who we are

617
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 1: as people, I believe. Yes. Next, Riley takes us through

618
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 1: some of the world's strangest and most unusual depths, including

619
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 1: the bizarre and accidental ways people have lost their lives

620
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 1: throughout history. Okay, moving on from Harold Holt, can we

621
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 1: talk about there does seem to be an incredible amount

622
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 1: of figures throughout history who have died on the toilet.

623
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 2: Oh yeah.

624
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 1: The one that stands out for most of us, that

625
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 1: we probably already know of is obviously Elvis, who had

626
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 1: some kind of massive coronary event. He was very overweight

627
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 1: at the time whilst on the toilet. There's a few

628
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 1: in your book too, but there's one that stands out

629
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 1: to me because the way my brain has imagined how

630
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 1: this unfolded, and I'm not one hundred cent sure if

631
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 1: that's the way it actually unfolded, but I'd like to

632
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 1: speak to you about it is the death of Duke Godfrey,

633
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 1: the fourth of Lower Lorraine. So just give us an

634
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 1: idea of who he is in history to start with.

635
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 2: So he was, he was a duke. He was a

636
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 2: loyal subject of the Holy Roman Empire, right which at

637
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 2: the time loosely, loosely what is today Germany, although a

638
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 2: bit bigger than that areas of France, Switzerland, Northern Italy, Austria,

639
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 2: Czech Republic, Poland. It was a very large and very

640
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 2: complicated realm. Right, Yeah, I think the only word that

641
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 2: actually makes sense in its name. It was an empire.

642
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 2: It wasn't particularly Roman and also very holy anyway, Duke

643
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 2: Godfrey is a loyal vassal of the Holy Roman Empire.

644
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 2: He was married to a very important woman in the

645
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 2: history of the Middle Ages, Matilda of Tuscany, very very

646
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 2: very powerful woman. She ruled most of northern what is

647
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 2: today in northern Italy. Now, these two didn't get along.

648
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 2: Their marriage was one of obviously in the way that

649
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,719
Speaker 2: you know the grand tradition of European nobles. They married

650
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 2: for political reasons, not for love, and they ended up

651
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 2: on the wrong side of a political divide between the

652
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:19,080
Speaker 2: Holy Roman Emperor and the Pope. Right, and it's thought

653
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 2: that Duke Godfrey was such an inconvenience right for not

654
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 2: just his wife but the general supporters of the pope everywhere,

655
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 2: that he was assassinated, right to just get him out

656
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 2: of the way, to remove him from the picture so

657
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:34,479
Speaker 2: that the people who supported the pope could continued. There

658
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 2: was a whole thing called the investors to controversy. It's

659
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 2: very try and boring it, but essentially it came down

660
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 2: to who was the real boss, who was in charge

661
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 2: of things? Was it the Holy Roman Emperor Emperor was

662
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 2: at the pope. Now Duke Godfrey loyal vassal of the

663
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 2: Holy Roman Emperor Emperor. He's paying the ask for anyone

664
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 2: who sports the pope, including his wife. So he gets

665
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 2: knocked off. The full story behind exactly who and how

666
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,360
Speaker 2: his assassination was organized by, and all that sort of

667
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 2: stuff that's never never been full. It was. It was

668
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 2: a very cleanly and professionally done thing, tell you.

669
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 1: But cleanly is probably not the word.

670
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 2: It wasn't that at all. It wasn't clearly done. It's

671
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 2: a very good point from a from a procedural standpoint

672
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 2: rather than a trackable one, certainly. But Duke Godfrey was

673
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 2: assassinated in and look, you've got to feel for the

674
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 2: bloke because when you go and have a sit on

675
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 2: the toilet, mate, like this is a time for peace

676
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 2: and tranquility. It's a time to rest, reflection, recuperate resort,

677
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 2: read the back of a shampoo bottle. If you're in

678
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 2: a literary mood, you know it's a time. It's a

679
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 2: it's a place where you should feel safe, is what

680
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 2: I'm trying to know. Anyway, one day Godfrey, he goes

681
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:43,840
Speaker 2: to the guard rode right and hiding in the I

682
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 2: don't know how to politely hiding in the area. And yeah,

683
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 2: the area into which this fowl effluvium would be deposited. Right,

684
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 2: was an assassin? Now here is a man dedicated to

685
00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 2: his craft. Right, they hire assassin. How we need to

686
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 2: We need you to knock off Duke Godfrey. Oh okay, yeah,

687
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 2: no worry, that's fine. Duke's my speciality. I'll give you

688
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 2: a nack a special right for it. We do need

689
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,280
Speaker 2: you to do it, really, okay, there are some condition

690
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 2: there are some strings attached. No, this bloke he crawled

691
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 2: into essentially a cess pit, and he waited there for

692
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 2: this bloke to arrive with at once for I learn

693
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:22,839
Speaker 2: a spear. He didn't want anyone to get too close. Right,

694
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 2: he's doing it at some distance.

695
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 1: So he's holding a spear in a cess pit and

696
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:28,839
Speaker 1: waiting for the Duke to sit down.

697
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:30,359
Speaker 2: He's waiting for the duke sit down. But the thing,

698
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:32,840
Speaker 2: like I was never there was a question that plagued

699
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 2: me when I was researching this death because I was

700
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 2: never able to determine how did you know it was

701
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:36,879
Speaker 2: the duke?

702
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 1: Good question, how do you know it was the duke?

703
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 2: Like? What did he look up at this this guy's

704
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,840
Speaker 2: bum winking at him. Go, yep, I know that us anywhere.

705
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:46,840
Speaker 2: That's a duke elastic I've ever seen one.

706
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:49,359
Speaker 1: I have no idea, did not even think of that.

707
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 1: But yes, good question.

708
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:52,239
Speaker 2: How did this guy determined like you don't want to

709
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 2: knock you know what, you know, want some poor server

710
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 2: to come in and look? Maybe it was one of

711
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 2: those situations like you know, like a CEO will have

712
00:34:57,680 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 2: like a private toilet.

713
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 1: In the exclusive to jukes. Yeah, that's what I.

714
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 2: May be thinking, right, That might explain it was his

715
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 2: own private little gartera robe. In any case, Godfrey goes in,

716
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 2: sits down, gets rid of to murder of brown snake.

717
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 2: And this assassin struck from below. And I don't know

718
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:18,840
Speaker 2: how much grizzly. I'm sure the listeners can imagine.

719
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,400
Speaker 1: You know, I mean, we are interested in knowing the

720
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 1: trajectory of the sphere.

721
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 2: I guess well upwards. I can tell you the direction

722
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 2: it took. And yes, this poor old lo duke Godfrey,

723
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 2: he was done away with again at a time when

724
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,360
Speaker 2: all he, as you say, should have been a peaceful

725
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:41,799
Speaker 2: and reflective time for him. But instead, yeah, he bled

726
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 2: to death with perforated guts. The poor bloke after having

727
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 2: been killed on the toilet.

728
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 1: Okay, I would just like to finally ask you if

729
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 1: there is a story in the book that you just

730
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 1: love telling more than any of the others, Like do

731
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:56,840
Speaker 1: you have a little favorite that you pull out at

732
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:58,920
Speaker 1: parties that, yes, is your go to?

733
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 2: So there was this law his name was Clement for Landingham. Right,

734
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 2: had a bit of a checkered past. He was on

735
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:04,879
Speaker 2: the wrong side of the American Civil War, that sort

736
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:06,839
Speaker 2: of thing. But in his later years he worked as

737
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 2: a lawyer and he was once he was given the

738
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:14,359
Speaker 2: job to defend a client from a murder charge. Now,

739
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 2: this client was accused of having shot another man in

740
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,240
Speaker 2: the guts in a barroom brawl. Right, So this guy's

741
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 2: he's been arrested, he's been charged, and he's going to

742
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 2: be put in front of the judge and he's going

743
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 2: to be tried for murder. For Landingham, he came out

744
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 2: with a very novel criminal defense here that he was

745
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 2: going to use to get his client off this charge.

746
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 2: He said, no, no, no, no, no, my client didn't shoot anyone.

747
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 2: What actually happened was the guy who died, right, the

748
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 2: supposed murder victim, He actually shot himself in the guts.

749
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 1: Now interesting, how.

750
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:46,239
Speaker 2: Did he do this? A lot of raysed diabouts. You

751
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 2: can imagine him pitching this idea to the other defense

752
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:50,919
Speaker 2: lawyers the defense and thanking, oh, okay, well you better

753
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:56,360
Speaker 2: be going somewhere with this, Clement. So Clement then right again,

754
00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 2: saying that this guy shot himself in the guts. He

755
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:00,840
Speaker 2: took a pistol, he put it in his pocket, and

756
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:05,799
Speaker 2: he demonstrated to his colleagues how this guy could have

757
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:07,319
Speaker 2: put his hand in his pocket, tried to pull out

758
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:09,239
Speaker 2: a gun of his own to shoot his client, right

759
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:11,280
Speaker 2: because of his the barroom. But all things are getting heated.

760
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:13,880
Speaker 2: And what he did, you know, he fumbled and stumbled

761
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 2: with the gun and it obviously went off while while

762
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 2: it was in his pocket and shot him in the guts. Now,

763
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 2: this actually, on the face of it, is actually a

764
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 2: pretty plausible thing that could have happened. But obviously the

765
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 2: landing and wanted to put it beyond a shadow of

766
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:28,920
Speaker 2: a doubt because, as I say, put a pistol in

767
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 2: his pocket, fumbled around with it trying to pull it out,

768
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 2: didn't realize it was loaded, and shot himself in the

769
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 2: guts while trying to do this, and he died of

770
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:41,600
Speaker 2: the wound.

771
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 1: So I mean proves his point though, Right.

772
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 2: That's what That's exactly it. I mean, we talked about

773
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 2: that assassin being dedicated to his craft. How is this

774
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 2: lawyer for being dedicated to his craft. He wanted to

775
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 2: prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that this guy

776
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:56,360
Speaker 2: could have shot himself in the guts, and he did

777
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:58,319
Speaker 2: so by shooting himself in the guts. Right, he put

778
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:00,360
Speaker 2: his life on the line and in the like and

779
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 2: this is the most most unbelievable part of the story. Right,

780
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,239
Speaker 2: the guy got off the murder charge. The defense team

781
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 2: they rock up at the court. They're like, oh, well yeah,

782
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:11,760
Speaker 2: so here's our theory. We we tested it pretty thoroughly.

783
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 2: We've got the corps to prove it. You're on us.

784
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 2: So you know, Exhibit A. A guy what shot himself

785
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 2: in the guts, just like we're saying that this guy did.

786
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 2: So what do you reckon? And this guy got off

787
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 2: the murder charge. His lawyer defended him from beyond the grave.

788
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 1: To the death. Okay, well, we can all hope for

789
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 1: legal representation that dedicated if in such time we would

790
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 1: need it. Yes, Riley, thank you. So much for sharing

791
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 1: some of the stories from your book, History Stranger's Deaths.

792
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 1: It is such a riotous read. I cannot recommend enough.

793
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 1: And I understand you're working on part two as we speak.

794
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:49,439
Speaker 2: There is a this is a scoop. Actually I haven't

795
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 2: announced this anywhere else publicly, so yes, there is a

796
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:55,439
Speaker 2: second book coming. It's in the works. It's been worked

797
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 2: on right now and should be out next year. So

798
00:38:57,719 --> 00:38:59,360
Speaker 2: if you like the first one, maybe you're like that.

799
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:01,919
Speaker 2: I don't know, it's kind of funny sometimes the book

800
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 2: like it's not. My mum liked it like so well.

801
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 1: I hope you've got her endorsement written on the dust

802
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 1: jacket of your next one, ringing indoor exactly. Yeah, thank

803
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 1: you so much, Riley, appreciate you giving us your time.

804
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 2: Thank you, Thanks so much.

805
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 1: Once again, a big thank you to Riley for helping

806
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 1: us tell these stories. You can read more about his book,

807
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 1: History's Stranger's Depths and listen to his podcast Half Fast

808
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 1: History at the links in our show notes. If you

809
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 1: want to see images from this story, head to our

810
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 1: Instagram page at True Crime Conversations, give us a follow

811
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:32,359
Speaker 1: and have a look at our case explainers as well,

812
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 1: why are you there. If you enjoy this podcast, please

813
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 1: review our show on Apple Podcasts or leave a comment

814
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 1: on Spotify. True Crime Conversations is hosted by me Claire Murphy.

815
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:45,320
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Tarlie Blackman. Our Group Executive Producer

816
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:47,799
Speaker 1: is A Laria Brophy and there's been audio designed by

817
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,919
Speaker 1: Tina Madelof. Thanks so much for listening. I'll be back

818
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:59,880
Speaker 1: next week with another True Crime Conversation. True Crime Conversation

819
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,920
Speaker 1: uns acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that

820
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 1: this podcast was recorded on